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Judge Makes Lawyers Pay For Frivolous Patent Suit

Gallenod writes "The Denver Post is reporting that the U.S. 10th Circuit Court of Appeals has upheld the decision of a Federal judge who threw out and reversed a jury decision in favor of a patent infringement claim and ordered the plaintiff's lawyers to pay the defendants' court costs. U.S. District Senior Judge Richard P. Matsch sanctioned the plaintiff's attorneys for 'cavalier and abusive' misconduct and for having a 'what can I get away with?' attitude during a 13-day patent infringement trial in Denver. With the Appeals Court in agreement, could this case be the 'shot heard round the world' in the revolution against patent trolls?"

263 comments

  1. And now... by downix · · Score: 0

    If this is held up through appeals, will radically change the very nature of lawsuits, and not necessarily for the better. Imagine the little record label suing Sony for re-listing their catelog without permission, and Sony simply out-spends them, then forces them out of business by having them pay for the legal costs?

    --
    Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
    1. Re:And now... by pheared · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How is that the same? The small label wouldn't be "patent trolling" since they would have a legitimate claim. They also wouldn't be displaying a let's see what we can get away with attitude. The judge made the kind of impartial corrective action they are supposed to make. If anything, this sets precedent for less frivolous lawsuits.

    2. Re:And now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      pay for the legal costs I am pretty sure there will be reasonable limits on qualified expenses.
    3. Re:And now... by sm62704 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You commented kind of on what I was thinking. When is someone going to get hit with a suit for abusing copyright? After all, we can outwait patents, which only last 20 years. Copyrights are forever, or as close to forever as can matter to anyone still breathing.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    4. Re:And now... by milsoRgen · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If this is held up through appeals, That is exactly what worries me, as FTA:

      "Judge Matsch does some things that are out there, but he's usually right. Very infrequently is he reversed on appeal." It says he is rarely revesred... But the "out there" part certainly gives me pause for thought.
      However this guy has done some cool things, like halting clean dvd edits, he was involved in the McViegh trail and even the Kobe Bryant trial among other things .
      --
      I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask where they're goin' and hook up with 'em later.
    5. Re:And now... by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The exact opposite is what happened here; a bunch of slick, highly paid lawyers smooth-talked the jury, and then the judge tossed the jury verdict and stuck the plaintiff with the costs for their litigation.

      This kind of thing is most common when the lawyers get out of control...If the judge decides that the lawyers are running amok, they can throw the whole thing out and charge them with contempt or whatever. There is some precedent in also tossing cases where the juries decision contravenes the material facts of the case, but that's a much greyer area, though it has been upheld more often than not.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    6. Re:And now... by pizzutz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If this is held up through appeals,
      That is exactly what worries me, as FTA:
      Also from TFA:

      "The U.S. 10th Circuit Court of Appeals saw it differently and affirmed Matsch's decision to overturn the verdict."

      This has already gone through the appeals court. While they could go to the supreme court, I suspect it's done and over.
      --
      GE/CS/IT d- s: a- C++++$ UL+++ P-- L++++ E W+++$ N+ o? K- w---() !O M- V- PS+ PE(++) Y+ PGP+++(+) t+++ !5 X++> R- t
    7. Re:And now... by Hyram+Graff · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you read the article, or at least the summary, you would have seen that this was held up by a court of appeals. There are only two more possible challenges left 1) an En banc rehearing by the 10th circuit, and 2) The Supreme Court of the United States.

      --
      0*0
      00*
      ***
    8. Re:And now... by julesh · · Score: 3, Informative

      Imagine the little record label suing Sony for re-listing their catelog without permission, and Sony simply out-spends them, then forces them out of business by having them pay for the legal costs?

      Funnily enough, you don't hear about this happening very often in the UK, which has a loser-normally-pays system (rather than loser occasionally pays, as in the US). Now this could be because UK law has a substantially different culture to the US (although I'm far from convinced that this is true) or it could be because the threat is blown up out of all proportion by those who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. Here's a suggestion: google tort reform astroturf. I highly recommend the first link that comes up, and some of the others are good too.

    9. Re:And now... by MacDork · · Score: 4, Informative

      then forces them out of business by having them pay for the legal costs?

      The plaintiff's lawyers are being ordered to pay, not the plaintiff.

    10. Re:And now... by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What's so cool about halting clean dvd edits? Do you find it morally objectionable to remove morally objectionable content from movies?

      For example, I like the Matrix trilogy, but there is a completely unnecessary sex scene in the second movie. Is it your intent to force all who would wish to watch the movie to view that scene? Even "fast forwarding" still gives you glimpses, interrupts the flow of the movie, and requires either good timing or a quick backtrack-rewind to resume the movie after the scene.

      Many movies are like this. If I want to see a movie without what many consider objectionable material, why are movie studios fighting this? Wouldn't they be better off releasing a clean version of the movie themselves, and keep the profit? But since they refuse to do this, then I do not think that there is anything wrong with editing a movie to clean it up.

      More to the point, networks and cable stations do this regularly to air movies on TV. Rather than prohibit *other* people from editing movies, movie studios should do what they do for networks - provide a license to edit the movie.

      Prohibiting things like this does nothing but reduce movie studios' monetary gains. I, for one, won't see movies that have objectionable material unless I can either buy an edited version or see it on TV (where it is edited anyway).

      I'm not saying that someone should be able to buy one copy of a DVD, edit it, and sell dozens or hundreds of burned copies. I propose that every edited copy be sold attached to an original - that way the studios get their sales money. The price could be somewhat higher than the price of the original alone, to compensate the editors for their work. Additionally, whoever does the editing should need a license (or some other form of permission) from the movie studio for each movie they edit.

      Prohibiting the editing of movies altogether is not the answer.

    11. Re:And now... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Apparently you can't read, have a reading comprehension problem, or are just plain stupid. Those is the only explanations for your horrible supposition. The cases have almost nothing in common.

      This is a case where a company hired lawyers to file a frivolous lawsuit, lost, and the judge penalized the plaintiff's law firm for it's conduct.

      What you describe is a small company suing a large company and being "out-spent" and being forced to concede the lawsuit or going bankrupt. It would be pretty hard for Sony to deny that they have violated copyright law as the copyrights are on file. It would be a fairly straight forward case, and the plaintiff could file for summary judgment if Sony tried to delay the trail and the would probably get it.

      Now, please show me where Sony has ever re-listed someone's catalog without permission. It seems to me that you would be more likely to do that to Sony than Sony do that to someone else. After all, look at all the people who violate copyright laws now.

      Sounds like you are afraid Sony will act like, well, someone like you.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    12. Re:And now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      then the judge tossed the jury verdict and stuck the plaintiff with the costs for their litigation.

      Stuck the -*-plaintiff's lawyers-*- with the litigation costs. Big difference. The only downside for the plaintiff is they lost the case.

    13. Re:And now... by milsoRgen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What's so cool about halting clean dvd edits? Do you find it morally objectionable to remove morally objectionable content from movies? Yes I do find that objectionable. I find intolerance of natural human functions in the media objectionable. If you can't handle it, don't watch it.

      Prohibiting the editing of movies altogether is not the answer. Yes it is the answer. Get over yourself.
      --
      I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask where they're goin' and hook up with 'em later.
    14. Re:And now... by zmooc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So half the movie is about killing various people, people that are locked up in a slimy bath for their entire life and people's life being controlled by robots and you actually dare complaining that the sex scene is "unneccessary" while all those other disgusting parts aren't?

      What is wrong with you? Do you hate to be distracted by love while watching violence? To me you appear like a very, very sick person.

      --
      0x or or snor perron?!
    15. Re:And now... by hedwards · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What's so cool about halting clean dvd edits? Do you find it morally objectionable to remove morally objectionable content from movies?

      For example, I like the Matrix trilogy, but there is a completely unnecessary sex scene in the second movie. Is it your intent to force all who would wish to watch the movie to view that scene? Even "fast forwarding" still gives you glimpses, interrupts the flow of the movie, and requires either good timing or a quick backtrack-rewind to resume the movie after the scene. This sort of things is one of the things that I wanted the Blu-ray and HD-DVDs to provide. Basically the content would still be there, but people that didn't want to view it could change a setting and those things would be skipped. Kind of like a V-Chip, but far less likely to make mistakes. Bonus points if there were a way for individuals to create their own cut points to avoid things they're uncomfortable with. I've got a few things myself that I don't want to see in movies.

      It really does seem like a fair compromise, people that don't want to view the material would have an easy way of avoiding it, and the people that do could do so. It would also make it quite a bit easier to separate out the "please, won't somebody, think of the children" crowd from the people that just don't want their own kids watching it.

      If they really wanted to buff up the bottom line, they could probably make a feature which would do the opposite, skip all the wholesome stuff and get straight to the T&A and B&G.
    16. Re:And now... by milsoRgen · · Score: 1

      Do you hate to be distracted by love while watching violence? You hit that nail on the head far squarer then I ever could. Kudos to you sir!
      --
      I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask where they're goin' and hook up with 'em later.
    17. Re:And now... by AmaDaden · · Score: 1, Insightful

      After all, we can outwait patents, which only last 20 years.
      That's part of the problem. With the way things are now people are getting patents to last for nearly a hundred years. Until people like this judge and others start fighting back it's only gonna get worse. I'm not saying all patents are bad but I am personally afraid that if I started to generate my own content that my little start up would be patent trolled out of existence. There needs to be a balance to prevent both patent trolls and pirates. Currently the patent trolls have all the power.
    18. Re:And now... by orgelspieler · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I don't care whether you find the sex scene objectionable or not. Copyright law does not have an exception to the "derivative works" clause that allows for such modifications. Modified versions reduce the marketability of officially edited versions released for other purposes. Take Sex and the City, for instance. There are several scenes that were critical to the plot of an episode, but were "objectionable" to certain puritanical people (who apparently wield an inordinate amount of power over the FCC). Consequently, they shot several scenes twice, basically anything with breasts or a lot of cursing. One shot was for DVD and HBO, and the alternative version was for the whiners. Though, if you ask me, anybody old enough to watch Sex and the City is old enough to see the sex scenes and the occasional tit. Anyway, it allowed the writers and directors some flexibility over how the episodes were sliced and diced.

      Returning to the Matrix: did you see how the original Matrix was edited for TV? Instead of "give you the finger" it was "Why don't I give you the flipper." WTF does that even mean? If I were the W bros. I'd have been a bit ticked. Also the sex scene in th sequel was tastefully done, and I thought it added a bit of gravity and beauty to what would have otherwise been a ridiculous rave scene.

    19. Re:And now... by VisceralLogic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What's so cool about halting clean dvd edits? Do you find it morally objectionable to remove morally objectionable content from movies? Yes I do find that objectionable. I find intolerance of natural human functions in the media objectionable. If you can't handle it, don't watch it.

      Why shouldn't people be able to watch it as they want to watch it?

      Prohibiting the editing of movies altogether is not the answer. Yes it is the answer. Get over yourself.

      Let me guess... you're also against fast-forward, rewind, ad-skip in TiVo, and anything and everything else that allows consumers to watch content as they wish to do so?

      --
      Stop! Dremel time!
    20. Re:And now... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What's so cool about halting clean dvd edits? Do you find it morally objectionable to remove morally objectionable content from movies?

      Ummm... the fact that Clean/Family flix - who held no rights in the movies they were redistributing - was redistributing copyrighted material for money in direct violation of the copyright holders' rights?

      If you find the content morally objectionable, how is it more moral to buy an edited version from someone who has no right to sell it? It seems to me that the best thing you can do is vote with your wallet and not buy it.

      And if that is too extreme for your tests, I respectfully suggest that you don't see that content as nearly so "objectionable" as you make it out to be.

      Wouldn't they be better off releasing a clean version of the movie themselves, and keep the profit? But since they refuse to do this, then I do not think that there is anything wrong with editing a movie to clean it up. Yes, I'm sure they would. But that's their choice -- and they're under no obligation to give away their work for another company to profit off of, if they choose not to do it.

      Prohibiting the editing of movies altogether is not the answer.

      The courts prohibited only using copyrighted material without permissions, which is after all what copyright is for. Whether the owner of the copyright wishes to allow a company to PAY for the rights to do what Clean Flix wanted to do is entirely up to the owner(s). The court is quite correct in stating that it has no say in it.

    21. Re:And now... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      This is definitely for the better - losing parties should generally pay for legal fees, especially if they are the instigator of the lawsuit. It makes it more fair, and prevents large companies from suing smaller companies just to get them out of business. Court costs are expensive and a small company shouldn't be expected just to eat those cost by a bunch or predatory lawyer companies.

      Incidentally this is not new. In Canada it is standard practice in corporate cases to allow businesses to recoup their lawsuit costs from the other party if they successfully defend against a lawsuit.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    22. Re:And now... by ChaosWeevil · · Score: 1

      Do you hate to be distracted by love while watching violence? No. I hate being distracted by sex while watching violence. I have no problem with romantic scenes, or characters expressing affection for one another. However, showing sex is entirely unnecessary. Not having seen the exact movie in question, I don't know the content of said scene, however, more than likely, it would suffice to show them lying in bed, should it be essential to the plot, rather than showing the act itself.
    23. Re:And now... by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 2, Informative

      Indeed, that ruling was just an end-run around the first sale doctrine.

      Those clean-edits people were doing the effective equivalent of buying a book, blacking out certain sentences and pulling out specific pages and then reselling the book.

      Just because a new storage medium inherently prevents direct alteration should not be an excuse to prevent a legitimate buyer from doing something that produces the same end result.

    24. Re:And now... by kent_eh · · Score: 1

      then the judge tossed the jury verdict and stuck the plaintiff with the costs for their litigation.

      Stuck the -*-plaintiff's lawyers-*- with the litigation costs. Big difference. The only downside for the plaintiff is they lost the case.

      What, you don't expect the lawyer to pass those "expenses" on to the client? Possibly with a markup.
      --

      ---
      "I can't complain, but sometimes still do..." Joe Walsh
    25. Re:And now... by milsoRgen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why shouldn't people be able to watch it as they want to watch it? They should watch it as the people who created intended it, first and foremost.

      Let me guess... you're also against fast-forward, rewind, ad-skip in TiVo, and anything and everything else that allows consumers to watch content as they wish to do so? No go ahead and watch it as you will with the tools you have at your own disposal, but I am not going to be happy with companies making a profit off of someone elses IP that they have butchered just to pander to the Ned Flanders of the world.

      Lastly perhaps the issue at hand is why anyone would find human sexuality so offensive they need to engage in censorship? Is it a religious thing? Ashamed of your own body/sexuality thing? I have trouble understanding it. Perhaps that's why it seems so outrageous to me.

      I realize my personal stance is a bit on the other extreme end, what consenting people decide to do is fine by me. Wanna hunt humans and make it a televised sport? Fine by me. Want graphic all male orgies to go with that 6 o'clock news cast? Fine by me. The day people understand that violence and sex are part of the human condition and nature as whole will be the day we can really start moving forward as society.
      --
      I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask where they're goin' and hook up with 'em later.
    26. Re:And now... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      That's a bad analogy. Try purchasing one copy of a book, re-printing it under a new binding with only the content you don't want to censor, then selling it in large quantity -- and see how long you can get away with it.

    27. Re:And now... by CorSci81 · · Score: 1

      My problem with the sex scene in question is it was just a particularly boring spot in what was on the whole a boring movie. I don't normally mind a good hot'n'steamy sex scene where it makes sense, but damn if that one didn't drag on forever. I would've been happier if they'd just spliced in a nice porn clip in its place. At least then I might've gotten something out of it.

    28. Re:And now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What, you don't expect the lawyer to pass those "expenses" on to the client?

      Right... and next time you get a speeding ticket on a business trip, try to pass that off on your company expense report and see how that flies. Didn't you see "The Firm" in the early 90s? If they even mail the bill, it's mail fraud. They don't just get fined, they go prison.

    29. Re:And now... by pavon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How do your examples about the government forcing censorship on a company have anything to do with people choosing to purchase edited version done by a third party?

      And I'm sorry but there are no financial justifications for this - allowing a third party to release censored versions increases total sales and total profits, period. The only legitimate objection is to preserve the integrity of ones artistic vision.

    30. Re:And now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      But that's not what they were doing. For each DVD that they sold, the consumer would get the Original DVD, and the Edited DVD. When they were renting the DVD, for each DVD that was rented, they had purchased an un-edited DVD that they would hold.

      The content producers got their money. It really is exactly as the original poster said. It's like buying a book, blacking out certain sections, and then reselling it.

    31. Re:And now... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They should watch it as the people who created intended it, first and foremost.

      So I don't have a right to decide what I want to see, but only the content creator has?

      I agree that I should be able to see it the way the creator intended it. But if for some strange reason I decide I want to see a movie with every first word of a sentence removed, I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to. And if someone provides me the service to do the tedious work of removing all those first words, then why should they not get payed for their work.

      Am I also not allowed to e.g. add some salt to an ordered Pizza if I consider it to have too little of it, because I'm not tasting it the way the creators intended?
      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    32. Re:And now... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      But that's not what they were doing. For each DVD that they sold, the consumer would get the Original DVD, and the Edited DVD. When they were renting the DVD, for each DVD that was rented, they had purchased an un-edited DVD that they would hold.

      The content producers got their money. It really is exactly as the original poster said. It's like buying a book, blacking out certain sections, and then reselling it.
      Thanks for clarifying, it's been a while since I read up on the case (probably since when it was first posted here...) Marginally better -- but still, it seems more like it's buying the book, printing up a redacted version of the book under new binding, and selling them both together. It's still violating copyright. The only way I could see them having a leg to stand on is if they gave away the edited version at no charge or profit.
    33. Re:And now... by jimlintott · · Score: 1

      "What's so cool about halting clean dvd edits? Do you find it morally objectionable to remove morally objectionable content from movies?"

      Yes, I am deeply offended by people who censor art. If you think there is a facet to a piece of art that is objectionable then don't view any of the piece. Changing even the slightest detail is to take the work out of context. You might as well kick the artist in the nuts.

      The Mona Lisa is a great piece of art except for that ugly chick. Let's replace her face with Paris Hilton. Better now?

      Let's take all the sex and violence out of the Bible. That would leave us with a nice, if not substantial, notebook with a nice cover.

      It's very important for people to encounter concepts that they find "morally objectionable" otherwise how do they understand their own morality? How can you grow as a human being if you live life in some sterile bubble of flowers, puppies and happy things? Someone has to challenge your morality to grow you has a human. How do you teach morality and ethics to children if they never encounter anything questionable? The world will turn out to be a big scary place if you never have your ideas challenged and then you suddenly find yourself faced with all the questionable morality and ethics we all deal with every day.

      Oh right, I remember now. You give the little ones a bible. Tell them that's all they ever need to know and then stick your head back up your own arse.

    34. Re:And now... by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      more like it's buying the book, printing up a redacted version of the book under new binding, and selling them both together. Just because a new storage medium inherently prevents direct alteration should not be an excuse to prevent a legitimate buyer from doing something that produces the same end result.

      The only way I could see them having a leg to stand on is if they gave away the edited version at no charge or profit. Sure thing, they just resold the original for a higher price than they paid and threw in the edited version for free.
    35. Re:And now... by milsoRgen · · Score: 1

      I never said anything against using the tools at your disposal to watch the movie as you will, that's your business. I find it objectionable that 3rd parties can come along and edit as they will and turn a profit on someone else's IP.

      --
      I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask where they're goin' and hook up with 'em later.
    36. Re:And now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So I don't have a right to decide what I want to see, but only the content creator has?
      Is someone holding a gun to your head and forcing you to watch the Matrix? Because if that's the case, you should call the police. Writing whiney posts on slashdot isn't going to help you.
    37. Re:And now... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Informative

      This sort of things is one of the things that I wanted the Blu-ray and HD-DVDs to provide. Basically the content would still be there, but people that didn't want to view it could change a setting and those things would be skipped This feature is already there with DVDs. You can define multiple paths through the same video files. The idea was that you could put the cinema and director's cuts on the same disk and have a menu option to select the one to watch. Then the studios realised that they could make more money selling them on separate disks.
      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    38. Re:And now... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I never said anything against using the tools at your disposal to watch the movie as you will, that's your business. I find it objectionable that 3rd parties can come along and edit as they will and turn a profit on someone else's IP. So, you find Movie theaters, television stations etc objectionable? They all make a profit from someone else's IP.
      What exactly is objectionable about me buying a copy of the movie making changes to it and selling that changed copy for a profit? The case in question was not people buying a copy and selling multiple copies. The company in the case paid the creator for every copy they sold.
      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    39. Re:And now... by milsoRgen · · Score: 4, Informative

      They all make a profit from someone else's IP. Yes but they don't edit the product without consent from the owners of the IP. And even then it's for time allotment, commercial interruptions or intermissions.

      What exactly is objectionable about me buying a copy of the movie making changes to it and selling that changed copy for a profit? A.) The fact you are potentially destroying the artistic vision set forth by the creators of the conent.
      B.) The issue at hand was editing in regards to 'moral' objections. Which was nothing more than pandering to religious types that attempt to engage in a war mainstream culture.

      You're attempting to argue that is someones right to watch this edited, family friendly media. And sure, I suppose they do have that right. But the sooner we ditch these archaic concepts ingrained in the major monotheistic religions the better off we will be.
      --
      I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask where they're goin' and hook up with 'em later.
    40. Re:And now... by jellie · · Score: 1

      ...the UK, which has a loser-normally-pays system (rather than loser occasionally pays, as in the US) I think you mean that the US has a "loser rarely pays" system. How often do you hear of a plaintiff's lawyers ever being forced to pay for the defendent's attorney fees? Some states, such as California, have anti-SLAPP laws, but this was a federal case and would not have applied here.

      On the other hand, the UK's libel laws are completely unreasonable, as the "McLibel Case demonstrates. The European Court of Human Rights found that the two defendents' right to a fair trial and right to the freedom of expression had been violated.
    41. Re:And now... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1, Insightful


      But the sooner we ditch these archaic concepts ingrained in the major monotheistic religions the better off we will be.
      Yeah, look how much better off people were in Stalin's Soviet Union, Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia. We will all be so much better off when we get rid of those archaic ideas of human dignity and the worth of individuals ingrained in Judaism and Christianity. /s
      Learn a little something from history. Every political movement that has attempted to build a society without religion has resulted in horrific mistreatment of human beings.
      I wonder if anyone else notices how intolerant you are of people who have different beliefs from yourself?
      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    42. Re:And now... by shmelly · · Score: 1

      Re: the sequel

      Somehow they must have snuck the TV version into the theater for my viewing. All I got was the ridiculous rave scene.

    43. Re:And now... by isilrion · · Score: 1

      Ummm... the fact that Clean/Family flix - who held no rights in the movies they were redistributing - was redistributing copyrighted material for money in direct violation of the copyright holders' rights?

      If you find the content morally objectionable, how is it more moral to buy an edited version from someone who has no right to sell it? It seems to me that the best thing you can do is vote with your wallet and not buy it.

      Why would it not be moral to buy the edited version? Assuming the seller actually paid for it, of course. The author is certainly getting his money (hence your suggestion to 'vote with your wallet'), and the reseller is just charging for the service his clients. If they could do it themselves (buy the move, edit it, burn it), why is it not moral to pay someone else to do it instead?

      It may be illegal. That's different. Illegal, but not wrong. The seller is not profiting from the author's work - he is profiting for his own work, and paying the authors for theirs.

    44. Re:And now... by milsoRgen · · Score: 1

      I wonder if anyone else notices how intolerant you are of people who have different beliefs from yourself? If you want to judge my tolerance (or lack thereof) based on a thread that has spun wildly off topic, that is your prerogative. However basic judgment of right and wrong does not come from religion. And I stand by that, and I am completely tolerant of what others choose to believe. As long as it is kept to themselves.
      --
      I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask where they're goin' and hook up with 'em later.
    45. Re:And now... by conlaw · · Score: 1

      Actually, there's an intermediate step that could be taken before heading off to SCOTUS. The losing side can ask for a rehearing en banc, which would mean that all of the members of the Tenth Circuit would review the case, rather than the three-judge panel who just heard the appeal. However, en banc hearings are fairly rare, so this decision is likely to stand.

    46. Re:And now... by initialE · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On the one hand, they could be acting on their clients explicit instructions, making the plaintiff directly at fault here. On the other hand, they ought to know better, and inform their client that there are lines they aren't supposed to cross. Either way, this is good news. Hopefully it will either lead to less people willing to bring frivolous suits, or less lawyers being willing to represent them.

      --
      Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
    47. Re:And now... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      , and I am completely tolerant of what others choose to believe. As long as it is kept to themselves. and yet, you think it is offensive that some people make money by catering to beliefs that you disagree with.
      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    48. Re:And now... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      , and I am completely tolerant of what others choose to believe. As long as it is kept to themselves. sorry to respond to this so rapidly, but I missed something in your comment to right after I hit submit.
      Based on the above statement, you are tolerant of others beliefs as long as they don't believe that you would be better off if you shared their belief. Talk about trying to force your beliefs on others. "It doesn't matter what you believe, so go ahead and believe whatever you want....except that it matters what you believe."
      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    49. Re:And now... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      A case can be made that way ( and is, in another thread of this conversation), because morals are quite subjective things. Fortunately, the bulk of my post addressed the legal and copyright aspect, not the moral.

    50. Re:And now... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Sure thing, they just resold the original for a higher price than they paid and threw in the edited version for free. You mean the edited version that they can't legally make?
    51. Re:And now... by Dhalka226 · · Score: 1

      When is someone going to get hit with a suit for abusing copyright?

      Well, for starters, that isn't what happened. The judge sanctioned the lawyers for ignoring his orders. To what degree his reversing the jury verdict was influenced by that misconduct (rather than, say, a differing interpretation of fact) is up for debate. It really wasn't about the patent itself though.

      To actually answer the question... copyright is hard to ACTUALLY abuse. Yes, it lasts entirely too long--but the most recent Supreme Court decision is basically that that is up to Congress to determine, and I don't necessarily think that's an unreasonable position. The RIAA, for example, clearly are abusing the legal process with their John Doe lawsuits and other things, and using it for fearmongering, but in the event they actually had evidence against a person and brought it their actual case would have merit. They should be sanctioned as well, yes, and I think we're not far from that point. It has already happened a little bit. But again, that's about their legal tactics and not copyright itself.

    52. Re:And now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Off topic, but I noticed your opinions were rather aligned with mine and thought you might enjoy this book if you haven't already read it :

      http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/aint/f01.htm

      It's called "Ain't nobody's business if you do" and I thought I'd pass it along.

      (posting AC to avoid karma.)

      Archangel_Azazel

    53. Re:And now... by ATMAvatar · · Score: 1

      Yeah, look how much better off people were in Stalin's Soviet Union, Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia.

      If you look at all of human history, you can find plenty of examples of theocracies which commit similarly egregious violations of human rights and decency. One need only look toward the Middle East if you need a recent example.

      religion != morality

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    54. Re:And now... by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's part of the problem. With the way things are now people are getting patents to last for nearly a hundred years.

      No, the problem is your ears, or eyes, or possibly what's between them. You are confusing copyrights and patents.

    55. Re:And now... by Jarjarthejedi · · Score: 1

      "They should watch it as the people who created intended it, first and foremost."

      Are you using firefox? Just a question, you know a lot of those sites you visit were created with the intent of being viewed on Internet Explorer. Use any alternate OS? Your hardware was created with the intent of running Windows (or Mac).

      Content creators don't have any power over their content once they release it. Oh sure, they can stop people from stealing it, but if I want to watch it some other way then you know what, I'm going to. Whether the creator wants it or not. The moment you start saying that the content creator has the right to force people to view their content ONLY how they created it is the moment you kill creativity and innovation.

      I've never watched the Matrix Trilogy, only the first one. I have no doubt that they're great movies, and I've read the plots and a lot of the discussion, but I really don't want to see some purely gratuitous sex scenes in my movie. If that offends you then you, fair sir, are an idiot, it's my eyes, my mind. Why in the world should the Wa-whosit brothers be able to dictate to me what I see? What kind of philosophy makes you think in pure black in white terms, you can only watch the whole thing, as the creator intended it, or not watch it at all? I cannot honestly understand at all how someone could believe that, period.

      --
      There are two kinds of fool One says 'This is old therefore good' Another says 'This is new therefore better'- Dean Ing
    56. Re:And now... by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      Copyright law does not have an exception to the "derivative works" clause that allows for such modifications. Explain to me, then, how network stations and cable stations manage to edit the movies they show. Different networks have different edits (meaning that networks are doing the editing themselves), and I really doubt they're doing it illegally.
    57. Re:And now... by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      If you find the content morally objectionable, how is it more moral to buy an edited version from someone who has no right to sell it? You completely missed my point. I'm not saying CleanFlicks should be able to buy one copy of a DVD, edit it, and sell a thousand burned copies (in fact if you go back and read my first post you'll see I used that same example). I'm saying (and I said) there should be some companies that should be allowed, through a license or other agreement with the movie studio, to edit movies.

      It's the same piracy-is-ok-no-it's-not argument as always, except in this case someone was editing the movie before reselling it. I'm not ok with that.
    58. Re:And now... by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      Well see that's the point - they should be able to make that version, if they have the permission of the copyright owner.

      If that's the issue (and I suspect it is) right now - that CleanFlicks or whoever didn't have permission - then that is the issue that should be corrected. Force CleanFlicks to license the material appropriately, rather than declare their business model illegal.

      I've seen several DVD players at supermarkets that purport to automagically skip sex scenes and blank out swear words. Should these devices be outlawed as well? They are, after all, modifying the movie from what the original creators intended...

    59. Re:And now... by smoot123 · · Score: 1

      They should watch it as the people who created intended it, first and foremost. Well, that's certainly your choice, but why would you force it upon others? By all means, watch it as the director intended if that's what you like, but I may have valid reasons for not wanting to do that. What those reasons are are is nobody's business but my own. Lemme give you a far-out hypothetical. Suppose my SO had persistent genital arousal disorder so she's always on the verge of orgasm. Perhaps seeing a sex scene sets her off and she doesn't like that. Perhaps she still likes explosions and violence. Seems like trimming a gratuitous sex scene of questionable plot value is a reasonable choice.

      No go ahead and watch it as you will with the tools you have at your own disposal... But these companies essentially were a tool at my disposal. They're just saving me the trouble of ripping/editing/re-authoring the DVD by myself. I never bought one of these DVDs, but my understanding was you had to buy the original DVD first (so you can't claim the original creators weren't getting their fair compensation), then charging an additional fee to edit out the naughty bits.

      In the end, I believe this comes down to freedom. The creator has the right to produce the work they want and sell it or not. Once they sell it to me, I have the right to enjoy it as I want.

    60. Re:And now... by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      Oh right, I remember now. You give the little ones a bible. Tell them that's all they ever need to know and then stick your head back up your own arse. So raising my kids to believe as I do is somehow ignorant? Let me guess, you're going to give your kids a Bible and the Communist Manifesto and some Scientology pamphlets and so on, so they can decide for themselves, right? No, you're going to raise your kids teaching them that religion is a wash and not worth their time, and likely you'll ridicule them if they look in to it on their own. Don't make the mistake of assuming that "belief in God" = "ignorant fool". I, on the other hand, will encourage my children to decide for themselves whether the religion I teach them is true, and if they decide it is not, I will not stop them, nor will I ridicule them. My sister went down that path, and I do not look down on her, though it saddens me.

      Back on topic, I'm not proposing that we censor art. I'm proposing that if a certain demographic wants to remove certain things from movies, that they be allowed to. That's a far cry from censorship.

      You know, to insist that people should encounter material they find objectionable is extremely inconsiderate of you. Should we, in our sex education classes in high schools, depict scenes of graphic sex? No, because it would add nothing to the educational value of the course. It is not necessary for me to view pornography to know I object to it. It is not necessary for me to drink alcohol to know that I don't want to drink it. It is not necessary to do or see or hear anything to know it is objectionable.

      Yes, there is sex and violence in the Bible. It does not, however, depict detailed scenes of sex or gory violence. Movies are far more effective at conveying an image than a book is.

      You see, there's a difference between you and I. You insist that a person should either see a movie exactly as its creators intended, or not at all. I claim that if I think a particular scene in a movie is not only objectionable but contributes absolutely nothing to the plot, that I should be allowed to view the movie without that scene. I wouldn't dream of forcing movie makers to only produce movies I personally find morally clean; they should be free to make whatever movie they want, and people should be free to watch a movie however they want. One of us wants to force our views on the other - and it's not the one of us that's religious. Isn't that odd...
    61. Re:And now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want to know how what I'm seeing differs from the original. I want the creators to make enough money to motivate more works (despite Hollywood accounting and our stupid non-patronage royalty lottery system). Beyond that I don't care. Giving anyone veto power over the progression of culture is at best a necessary evil, and if we preserve a creator's livelihood and reputation, I don't see any remaining interests so compelling that we should impose restrictions on everyone else. Some of my favorite works are mash-ups and parodies.

      Besides, the Matrix trilogy is still a story about a group of people who see the fraud behind the fairy tales that make the vast majority easier to manipulate. I want religious people to think about that, even if the scene with OMGBOOBIES isn't palatable to them yet. If all they can stand to watch is The Ten Commandments and Veggietales, they're less likely to free their minds.

    62. Re:And now... by kocsonya · · Score: 1

      > Do you find it morally objectionable to remove morally objectionable content from movies?

      Yes. What's morally objectionable to you might not be that to me. If we'd remove everything that is morally objectionable to someone, there would be nothing left. I guess if you are a really good person, you do not like to watch violence. You can still like Arnie, so here you go, this is Terminator for you, with all violence deleted. It is pretty much the opening and closing credits plus that scene with the empty street, but hey, it is still the Terminator, with morally objectionable scenes deleted! Do you think the gist of the film is still preserved? Does it have the same entertainment value (I think we can skip the "artistic integrity" in this case...)? In cultures where it is morally objectionable that women show their face publicly, should we sell versions of films where all scenes with a female actress with uncovered face are deleted? Queen Elisabeth would make an interesting viewing :-)

      There is the rating system. If you do not like to look at naked bodies, then do not watch films with 'nudity' and 'sex scenes' tags and by all means try to avoid any museum that hosts stuff from the great ancient places or from Europe during the Renaissance or later (the XI-XIV century period should be safe). But please do not demand museums to remove all the pictures by, say, Rubens just because they amorally show naked women, do not demand the chiselling off the penises of ancient statues (it was in vogue once, though, about 800 years ago). If Gauguin wanted all Tahitian women being painted in bikinis, probably he would have painted them that way. He didn't, there are half naked and fully naked women on a lot of his paintings. Yes, you could paint a bikini over every naked girl on his pictures, but that would not really be Gauguin any more, would it?

      Deleting scenes that *you* don't like is dangerously close to declaring that they should not be available to *anyone* because it is our duty to save our fellow human beings from immoral temptation, then we can start burning books, then burning people...

    63. Re:And now... by Stoutlimb · · Score: 1

      I doubt that lack of religion was what made those societies evil. There are enough evil societies who embrace religion around the world to show that what you say is completely without merit. Take your wishful thinking that religion somehow improves the behaviour of a society as a whole and flush it.

    64. Re:And now... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Yeah, please give me an example of a theocratic ruler who killed more than 5 million of his citizens.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    65. Re:And now... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      The original poster suggested that society would be better off without religion. I gave evidence of societies that were clearly worse after religion was removed, please feel free to give an example of a society that was improved.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    66. Re:And now... by deanlandolt · · Score: 1

      Every political movement that has attempted to build a society <strike>without religion</strike> has resulted in horrific mistreatment of human beings. There. Fixed. But seriously, why is it you seem to believe humans need a deity to be moral?
    67. Re:And now... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      What is morality? What does it mean to be moral? If there is no deity the word moral has no meaning.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    68. Re:And now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>(posting AC to avoid karma.) Yeah, right. As if the REAL Archangel Azazel has to worry about karma...

    69. Re:And now... by martinX · · Score: 1

      >> Suppose my SO had persistent genital arousal disorder so she's always on the verge of orgasm.

      You two still together? If you split, can you, you know, let me know. In case she needs, you know, a friend to talk to. Nothing freaky. Just ... talkin'.

      --
      When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
    70. Re:And now... by jdkchem · · Score: 1

      I find intolerance of natural human functions in the media objectionable. I am pretty sure that your scatological dvd collection safe.
    71. Re:And now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lastly perhaps the issue at hand is why anyone would find human sexuality so offensive they need to engage in censorship? Is it a religious thing? Ashamed of your own body/sexuality thing? I have trouble understanding it. Perhaps that's why it seems so outrageous to me.

      1) There is a difference between shame and modesty.

      2) Due to human/animal nature, watching a sex scene is likely to engender feelings of arousal... watching a violent scene is far less likely to engender violent feelings. So let people cut out what they don't want.

    72. Re:And now... by I+confirm+I'm+not+a · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, they aren't confusing copyrights and patents. Read what they said, read what they're replying to, then engage your brain.

      > > we can outwait patents, which only last 20 years...

      > That's part of the problem. With the way things are now people are getting patents to last for nearly a hundred years.

      They were pointing out that the patent system is being gamed so that patents last as long as copyrights. How this works is a new patent is submitted, adding very little to the previous patent but claiming to be completely novel.

      --
      This is where the serious fun begins.
    73. Re:And now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I think the feature is used, just not very often. The original idea had been the multiple camera angles feature (which this essentially is) would be used for interactive movies... a.k.a., mainly porn. The only time I've noticed it being used was on "The Lion King" DVD, where some new animation segments are added, but can optionally be skipped to get (more or less) the "classic" cut. You can tell they just didn't put two different cuts on the same disc, however, because changes to the original cut show up in both versions. (Not to mention it wouldn't have fit.)

      It might be harder to do this sort of thing with live action, though, especially older movies. Basically, unless you plan for it in advance, it's a lot harder to generate this sort of DVD than a pair of discs in the same box.

      Blu-ray (and the late HD-DVD) had even more robust interactive support than DVD, so it's likely that it's quite easy to do this, and even more complicated tricks.

    74. Re:And now... by kickdown · · Score: 1

      Copyrights are forever, or as close to forever as can matter to anyone still breathing. If I stop breathing, copyrights don't matter any more? *holds breath*
      --
      Continuous positive slashdot karma since... uh, maybe next year.
    75. Re:And now... by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      HeronBlademaster wrote:

      For example, I like the Matrix trilogy completely unnecessary sex scene in the second movie. Force all who would wish to watch the movie to view that scene.


      Fixed that objectionable content for you.

    76. Re:And now... by JohnBailey · · Score: 1
      So if I understand what JarJartheJedi is saying...

      I've never watched the Matrix Trilogy. I've read the plots but I want to see some purely gratuitous sex scenes in my movie. If that offends you then you, fair sir, are an idiot. Why in the world should the Wa-whosit brothers be able to dictate to me what I see. I cannot honestly understand at all how someone could believe that, period. Perfectly reasonable statement as far as I can see. Why is anybody objecting to it. After all, selective editing of any creative work, and even a /. post could be considered as such, has no negative effect whatsoever on the story the original author was trying to tell, or in this case, no bearing on the point the poster was trying to make.

      Now lets ban all boobies and add lots of good wholesome morally uplifting violence and death instead. We can't have little Johnny wondering why his peepee starts feeling funny during that bit between the explosions and someone having their head blown off now can we? Much better if he gets a clear message that blowing stuff up is good, but naked flesh is obviously the work of the devil....

      Seriously.. If you really are so freaked out by an occasional sex scene in a movie, I suggest you get some professional help. Your response is quite abnormal and could be an indicator of some hidden emotional trauma that may very well surface in a very negative and potentially dangerous way later in life.
      --
      It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
    77. Re:And now... by Calinous · · Score: 1

      "They should watch it as the people who created intended it, first and foremost."

      So when reading a book, I should be forbidden to jump over pages? Or should I be forced to listen an entire album of music when I only want to listen to two songs?

      You don't have a God-given right to impose me something - and I hate those non-skippable commercials at the start of a DVD with a movie I've already paid for.

    78. Re:And now... by The_reformant · · Score: 1

      More to the point, networks and cable stations do this regularly to air movies on TV. Rather than prohibit *other* people from editing movies, movie studios should do what they do for networks - provide a license to edit the movie. Yes exactly. However creating a non-authorized derivitive work is theft, umm I mean piracy, I mean *sharing*.
      --
      I have discovered a truly remarkable sig which this post is too small to contain.
    79. Re:And now... by mavenguy · · Score: 1

      The article has the facts wrong. The actual appellate decision on the merits was made one year ago, and not by the 10th circuit, but by the Federal Circuit court. The when the case returned to the District Court, the defendants moved for attorneys fees and costs. The current sanctions were made by the district court judge. If the plaintiffs and their attorneys appeal, it will go back to the CAFC, not the 10th circuit.

    80. Re:And now... by tzanger · · Score: 1

      I never said anything against using the tools at your disposal to watch the movie as you will, that's your business. I find it objectionable that 3rd parties can come along and edit as they will and turn a profit on someone else's IP.

      So you are also against any kind of VAR (Value Added Reseller) type of company or relationship? What about OEMs? They make money by taking an original manufacturer's product, putting their sticker on it and selling it as their own at increased price, and value-add by providing support and customizaton.

    81. Re:And now... by hey! · · Score: 1

      Ummm... the fact that Clean/Family flix - who held no rights in the movies they were redistributing - was redistributing copyrighted material for money in direct violation of the copyright holders' rights?

      Why is doing this for money particularly heinous? Does this mean it is morally objectionable for me to sell my used books, even though the copyright holders would prefer that people buy new copies?

      Copyright is not a right like the right to life and liberty. You have those rights even if Congress and the President are determined to take them away. Copyright is different. It is a statutory privilege established because on balance it promotes the public good. Your analysis is correct, in that the right to authorize derivative works is one of the "rights" that a copyright holder "owns" and therefore can sell. But it's hardly a cause for moral outrage. The line between a "derivative work" and something else is not precise, however the way the law works a thing must be one thing or the other.

      Imagine somebody was selling a bunch of stick on templates that covered the objectionable passages in a book, like Jaws for example, which has completely irrelevant (and rather puerile) sex scenes in it. The way the templates work is that each template is sized to fit over a page in a particular edition; you take the template numbered "page 115", and stick it over that page in your copy of Jaws, and it covers up the swear words or sex scene or whatever. Is that a derivative work?

      I'd say that on balance, it is so tied to the content of the original book it really has to be called a derivative work. So technically I'd call it a violation of the copyright laws. However, I can hardly get worked up into a lather of outrage, since Peter Benchley and his heirs got the royalties they demanded for the book. So while this sort thing is probably not allowed by copyright law, it should be. Copyright law is there to make sure that creators are paid enough so that they'll create things. I don't think copyright holders are actually harmed by people reselling bowdlerized copies because in practice the copyright holders don't sell or authorized bowdlerized versions of their works.

      Clearly, there is a market for such things, and one could argue that copyright holders should be allowed a monopoly on that market segment for a limited term. However, I don't think they can. They companies in that market are selling something distinct from the copy of the work itself. They are selling trust. It is the very independence of those companies from others that make most of their money selling, say, sexually vulgar material that gives people who are strongly averse to such materials reason to trust them.

      You or I might not think much of these companies' work or have much in common with people who buy from them. However these companies do perform a valuable service for their customers: they allow them grater freedom in their participation in popular culture. Producers very often add completely gratuitous material to movies after they are essentially complete, for pure marketing reasons: they want to get the "right" MPAA rating for the demographic they're targeting; if 18-25 year old males won't look at a movie with G rating, throw in some nudity to get your PG-13. It leaves people who are decidedly out of that demographic a Hobson's choice: either take it or leave it. There's no artistic reason to do this. It comes down to credibility again. The producers of a movie aimed at the 18-25 male demographic have no credibility selling a G rated movie. If they sold a G and PG-13 rating, they'd have no credibility marketing to either crowd. So I don't think unauthorized selling to the people who don't want to see the gratuitous bits harms copyright holders economically, as long as they get their normal royalty.

      And that's what it boils down to. I don't

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    82. Re:And now... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Well see that's the point - they should be able to make that version, if they have the permission of the copyright owner. That's the only point I've been arguing... for me, the "as creators intended" argument is worthless, as the consumer can view these things however they choose. Arguing otherwise is like saying that it should be illegal to view a painting through lenses specially tinted to bring out a certain color, just because the artist intended that it be viewed with two eyes. As far as I'm concerned, it's really just a matter of redistributing - and profiting off of - something they don't have the rights to redistribute.
    83. Re:And now... by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      Will copyright terms be lowered to a reasonable length? Don't hold your breath.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    84. Re:And now... by deanlandolt · · Score: 1

      The moral framework you ascribe to, divine command theory, is but one of many mankind has dreamed up over the millennia . Take a philosophy class sometime -- you'd be amazed at the breadth the field of ethics brings to morality. Though, I'd argue most, if not all frameworks ultimately boil down to the golden rule.

    85. Re:And now... by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      Yeah, reversing the meaning of my sentence is real mature. Thanks. /sarcasm

      I'm not suggesting that editing a movie should change the meaning of a movie. Removing a sex scene that contributes nothing to the plot does not change the meaning of a movie.

      Do you suggest that network television stop editing movies they broadcast as well? They have permission of the studios, you know.

      Oh, wait, you don't care if children see sex scenes.

      See, you probably get mad when religious people try to force their views on you. That's exactly what you are doing.

      You, sir, are an idiot.

    86. Re:And now... by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      Deleting scenes that *you* don't like is dangerously close to declaring that they should not be available to *anyone* because it is our duty to save our fellow human beings from immoral temptation, then we can start burning books, then burning people... Ah, but I would not support such a course of action. And I do not think it "dangerously close" to forcing other people should not view them.

      All I'm saying is that if a small portion of the population wishes to view a movie without a certain scene, that they be allowed to. I am certainly not suggesting that everyone else be forced to view the movie without those scenes.

      Yes, there is a rating system. It has become more and more lenient over even just the last ten years - ten years ago a studio would have been hard pressed to get certain swear words into a PG-13 rated movie; five years ago, one instance of the f-word was "ok", and recently I've seen a PG-13 movie with several.

      The ratings are no longer a reliable guide regarding a movie's content, but yes, you are correct in stating that if I do not want to see certain content I can avoid those movies altogether.

      The bigger problem comes when I see a movie on TV, enjoy it, and do not realize what was edited out. I rent it, gather a group of friends to watch, and suddenly there's a sex scene or nudity or whatever that was not in the edited version. This has not happened to me personally, but there have been many times where I see a movie on TV and decide to rent it and watch it with my wife, but when I get to Blockbuster I see the rating and I am sorely disappointed.

      Movies can be enjoyable without sex and nudity, even those that contain such when they were made. There are many great movies that I would undoubtedly buy if they were available without those scenes. Without fail, every edited movie I have seen has lost nothing from editing those types of scenes out. I've spoken with friends who have seen the non-edited versions and they generally agree with me.

      Moreover, I've seen some non-edited movies and I have been disappointed at the way some movie makers include such scenes "just because they can" while doing nothing to forward the plot. As someone else pointed out, simply showing Neo and Trinity in bed together in some way, or even just showing them go to the bedroom, would be enough to convey the fact that they're having sex. It is not necessary to actually show them doing it.
    87. Re:And now... by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Why shouldn't people be able to watch it as they want to watch it? They should watch it as the people who created intended it, first and foremost.

      ...who said they had to? I'm not so sure you know what a story actually is. This isn't some tutorial or KB article - it's a movie. As in entertainment. This means the viewer can take it in any way he or she desires. If someone doesn't want sex scenes in it, what's the harm in their cutting those out for their own consumption? Are they suddenly denying you the right to see them? Of course not, since you still have access to the unedited original.

      but I am not going to be happy with companies making a profit off of someone elses IP that they have butchered just to pander to the Ned Flanders of the world.

      Cripes - you sound just like an *AA mouthpiece. Lookit - the whole 'clean flicks' idea is to increase the IP holders' profit by accessing a market that would otherwise not bother spending the money. The 'clean flicks' guys still pay their vig to the MPAA affiliate. Let me repeat that: The IP holders still get paid their regular rate.

      If it's the fact that someone else made some dough off the deal on top of it all? Then kindly stay away from every record store, video store, eBay, used movie and CD stores, etc...

      If you're so eager to keep the right to be hedonistic, "free", or whatever you apply to your person, then you had best start supporting the rights of prudes to be non-intrusively prudish within their own environments. I myself will happily support to the death the right of someone else to be as prudish as they desire, so long as they don't infringe on my right to be a heathen (you're reading this from someone who recently converted his old VHS copies of Caligula and Heavy Metal to DVD, so please don't point and shout "prude!" in my direction).

      I realize my personal stance is a bit on the other extreme end, what consenting people decide to do is fine by me.

      ...unless they don't want to watch what you want to watch...

      /P

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    88. Re:And now... by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      I agree... that's why I said (more than once) that companies wishing to edit movies should get a license of some sort to do so, just as network stations do.

    89. Re:And now... by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      Yes but they don't edit the product without consent from the owners of the IP. And even then it's for time allotment, commercial interruptions or intermissions. Actually when movies (at least the ones we're talking about) start on cable and network stations, they put a little disclaimer before it that says "this movie was edited for time and content." So no, it's not just for "time allotment, commercial interruptions or intermissions", it's for content as well.

      And sure, I suppose they do have that right. But the sooner we ditch these archaic concepts ingrained in the major monotheistic religions the better off we will be. We'd be no better off than we are now. There are plenty of examples in history of countries that prohibit religion doing horrible things, just as there are plenty of examples in history of supposedly religious countries doing horrible things. I should note that these supposedly religious countries (at least the Christian ones) that did these horrible things (i.e. the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc) were not following the religion they profess to believe, so you can't rightly blame the religion itself. Correlation does not show causation. There are always people that take advantage of power, no matter how that power is obtained.

      But that's my opinion. You're entitled to yours. I'm not trying to force my opinion on you, you shouldn't try to force yours on me. If I want to watch a movie without its sexual content, it does not affect you - you can still see it in its original form. I'm not trying to stop you from doing so, and I do not support others who would try to stop you.
    90. Re:And now... by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      No, I don't "get mad" when religious people try to force their views on me. I listen politely and courteously, point out any errors or logical inconsistencies in what they've said, and get on with my life. Mostly, I just ignore what they have to say, because I'm not particularly interested in it, so I filter it out.

      It's called "being a grown-up". You should try it.

    91. Re:And now... by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 1
      The issue is artistic control. If you edit and redistribute my movie, your putting out a redistributed work with my name on it. Suppose I think it's crap? Suppose other people think it's crap, and don't buy my movies anymore? Part of the purpose of copyright, in addition to giving people monetary rewards for their work, is for people to control their artistic reputation.

      The key to this is that the sole person in charge of judging whether a change to the work affects it's character is the copyright holder. So "cleaning up" a movie may, in the opinion of the creator of the movie, damage their reputation and be a misuse of their work. Which is why it's at their sole discretion (with the "fair use" exceptions) to allow it or not, under copyright law.

      --
      It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
    92. Re:And now... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      No, it is not the divine command theory. Although that is close. If there is no absolute standard for "good", then "moral" is a meaningless word. If there is no God, where do you find an absolute standard for "good". I have taken philosophy classes and read philosophy. I have yet to hear of a "moral" code that is not based on the existence of divinity that calls for a man who has made good his escape from those who are pursuing him in order to torture him to death to turn back and save one of those pursuers from drowning at the expense of his escape.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    93. Re:And now... by julesh · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, the UK's libel laws are completely unreasonable, as the "McLibel Case demonstrates. The European Court of Human Rights found that the two defendents' right to a fair trial and right to the freedom of expression had been violated.

      Note that the laws the ECHR found had been violated in the trial are part of UK law, so it is not so much that the UK libel law is unreasonable, as the courts in this case applied the laws incorrectly. The fault is that of the court, not of the law, and I understand that as a result of this case the courts are generally more careful of the right to free expression than they were before. Additionally, legal aid is now available for libel cases (thus the right to fair trial is no longer an issue), and already was by the time the ECHR published their verdict in this case.

      You're looking at a case where UK law was misapplied, not one that shows it to be inadequate.

    94. Re:And now... by isilrion · · Score: 1

      The issue is artistic control. If you edit and redistribute my movie, your putting out a redistributed work with my name on it. Suppose I think it's crap? Suppose other people think it's crap, and don't buy my movies anymore? Part of the purpose of copyright, in addition to giving people monetary rewards for their work, is for people to control their artistic reputation.

      You have a point there, but, if I want the edited movie for myself, why shouldn't I edit it? And why shouldn't I pay someone to edit it for me?
      If that company, instead of cutting pieces out of the move, were to provide a dvd player + a service to tell that dvd player what to skip, would that service also be illegal? Would you consider it wrong, given that the net result is the same (with more work for the client)?


      I would assume that the editing company made clear that those weren't the originals. If they didn't, then I fully agree with you. (A step further - it would be ideal that they sent out both versions, but that would seem even more attractive to the lawyers).



    95. Re:And now... by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      You mean the edited version that they can't legally make? Just because a new storage medium inherently prevents direct alteration should not be an excuse to prevent a legitimate buyer from doing something that produces the same end result.

      Would you be happy if someone figured out how to use a high-powered laser to burn out individual bits on a mastered DVD and that's what these people did instead?

      What if they took the original VHS tape and clipped out certain sections, and over-dubbed other sections?

      The end result is the SAME -- the studio gets paid for one copy of the movie either way. Do you really think a quirk of technology should be the deciding factor?
    96. Re:And now... by Stoutlimb · · Score: 1

      You ask for examples and I shall give.

      Modern western civilization.

      Most of the major advances of western civilization happened as a result of the distancing of religion from mainstream culture. Separation of church and state is a prime example. Also, the abolition of slavery was a great moral victory of western ideals over religion. The foundation of modern science was another victory over religion, which was previously the sole arbiter of what was considered real. The concept of individualism and personal freedoms and rights is a relatively new concept, as previous religiously dominated cultures would not allow such independent thinking. Family planning and birth control would not exist if the church had it say. In my country (Canada), the abolition of religious schools for aboriginals was a great step forward in improving their lives. The list goes on...

      Most of the good things you cherish about modern civilization exist because religion has been pushed to the sidelines. You have no idea how horrifically stifling a society is when religion dominates.

    97. Re:And now... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      First off, you say modern western civilization, do you include the US in that? All polls I have heard indicate that somewhere in excess of 78% of US citizens consider themselves Christian. So, the US at least does not qualify as a society that. I am guessing that you consider Canada to be part of Western Civilization, yet over 70% of Canadians consider themselves religious. So exactly what society are you using as an example of one that did away with religion and was improved, because the US and Canada are societies that are from doing away with religion.
      The idea of separation of church and state entered modern thought in 1525 when the Swiss Brethren rejected the right of the Zürich City Council to tell them the correct way to worship. So, separation of church and state was an idea that was developed by people with religious convictions.
      You obviously haven't studied the abolitionist movement. The abolition of slavery was championed by people with very strong religious convictions and their objection to slavery grew out of their religious convictions. In the US, the overwhelming majority of those responsible for the abolition of slavery were evangelical protestants. I am unaware of any non-religious person who was active in the abolitionist movement.
      The concepts of individualism, personal freedom and rights is based on the principle of the supreme and intrinsic value of the individual human being. This principle is clearly expressed in the New Testament.
      I do not know anything about the abolition of religious schools for aboriginals, but question what evidence that shows the connection between that action and the improvement of their lives. What evidence do you ahve to support that assertion?
      I am sorry, but you have failed to make your case about a society that was improved by eliminating religion for two reasons. First, you have failed to list a society that has eliminated religion. Second, most of the points that you credit to the absence of religion are actually the actions of religious people acting on the basis of their religious convictions.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    98. Re:And now... by Stoutlimb · · Score: 1

      The US is included in that. Though the majority of USA'ers are Christian, their constitution has kicked them out of government in all forms except some purely ceremonial that still remain. So yes, my argument was valid for the USA too.

      The process of disentangling religion from the important functions of western civilization is long and complex, and much of it has been done by people who consider themselves religious People dismantling their own institutions doesn't invalidate my claim. The fact remains that much of religion is now irrelevant to western civlization, as evidenced by the multicultural and non-specific religiosity of the main aspects of western culture.

      As for the abolitionist movement, of course there are religious people on both sides of the equation, everyone had to be religious back then or face discrimination. The point is that they replaced a strict theological interpretation of the bible with one that's much kinder, gentler, and less close to the dictates of the bible. Keep in mind the slavery side of the debate had the bible on their side. Jesus and Paul of the new testament encouraged slaves to be obedient, so it can hardly be considered a beacon of truth and right. The bible only condemns slavery when it's the Jews or Christians who are enslaved, so enslaving black people at the time was biblically the correct thing to do. I suggest YOU read about the abolitionist movement. The Bible's position on slavery is at best murky, which is hardly the right and wrong that one would expect. Again, western civilization's progress is one of people reaching for a moral high ground that is far above what religion dictates.

      As far as the New Testament is concerned, morality is weak and selective. Why does it not speak against slavery? Or women's rights? Or science? Morality on these subjects have risen far higher than religious doctrine strictly allows. Religion has meekly followed higher western morality else it faces abandonment.

      As far as residential schools in Canada are concerned, I will not provide examples. For this you will have to build a relationship with Google, and all your questions will be answered.

      Ok, to counter your last 2 claims... I have not provided any lists of society that has eliminated religion. Such do not exist. Not even the hardest Marxism has succeeded in completely stamping it out. What I have provided is clear evidence of benefits of a society that has pushed religion to the sidelines of morality and governance. And as to your second assertion, I don't dispute that many religious people did it themselves. It is not necessary for everyone to do it to be an atheist. Religious people themselves are often capable correcting the failings of their own religion by making a society that is even more morally good than the Bible. It's not that hard, really.

  2. Why? by arizwebfoot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So why did the judge reverse? I always thought that the Jury was the "trier of fact".
    Aha, first post?

    --
    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
    1. Re:Why? by plague3106 · · Score: 2, Informative

      A judge can do that if he feels the jury made a wrong decision. I'm not sure if its only in civil cases (which this is) or in criminal cases.. although I think in criminal cases they can only throw out an improper guilty verdict, not an innocent one.

    2. Re:Why? by ridgecritter · · Score: 5, Informative

      Judges have broad authority to set aside or nullify a jury verdict. Usually called "judgement non obstante veredicto", or judgement notwithstanding the verdict. If the judge strongly believes the jury got the facts and/or the applicable law very badly wrong, a jnov can be entered. It's unusual, as juries are accorded very strong cred as the triers of fact.

    3. Re:Why? by calebt3 · · Score: 1

      I think juries are mostly for criminal cases. When corporations are involved, want to bribe as few people as possible.

    4. Re:Why? by KokorHekkus · · Score: 1

      AFAIK that's because in U.S. criminal cases the defendant has the right to a jury trial. Changning the jurys acquittal to a guilty verdict would nullify that right.

    5. Re:Why? by terrymr · · Score: 1

      It varies by jurisdiction - but most have some options for "Post verdict relief" where the evidence did not support the jury's verdict. Even in criminal cases.

    6. Re:Why? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's pretty much only when the jury comes to a conclusion that is in opposition with the known facts of the case, though the whole thing can be tossed because of irregularities in the conduct of the lawyers as well.

      The judges also have a large amount of say in the verdict, though there they have to follow precedent and the law; if a jury tries to award an absurdly high (or low) amount of money (based on precedent) the judge can throw out or modify the verdict within the scope of the law.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    7. Re:Why? by stratjakt · · Score: 1, Interesting

      It's there when the jury, despite irrefutable evidence of innocence, decides to come in with a guilty plea, because the defendant happens to be the wrong color/sex/religion/whathaveyou. Or, when they're basically bamboozled by a slick-talking lawyer. Basically, the Judge is tasked with making sure the jury does its job properly, and if they don't, he can toss their verdict.

      This, and the Judges discretion during sentencing, are very, very crucially important checks and balances in our justice system.

      Mandatory sentences, three-strike laws, and other such populist "think of the children" bullcrap removes those checks and balances, so now you have people going to jail for 25 years for jaywalking, and maybe we can even return to the era of all-white juries sentencing every nigger that comes in front of them.

      GO TEAM DEMOCRAT LETS SAVE AMERICA WITH HOPE AND CHANGE

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    8. Re:Why? by sconeu · · Score: 1

      They also have a right to a jury trial in civil cases, so long as you're dealing with more than $20.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    9. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      juries are accorded very strong cred as the triers of fact.

      Which makes it all the more unfortunate that juries are usually very deliberately filtered down to the lowest common denominator of intelligence available in the juror selection pool.

    10. Re:Why? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      I think in criminal cases they can only throw out an improper guilty verdict, not an innocent one.
      You may be wrong about that -- a friend who was studying law told me that judges can impose guilty verdicts even if a jury finds the other way. Whether this actually happens, I don't know.
      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    11. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which makes it all the more unfortunate that juries are usually very deliberately filtered down to the lowest common denominator of intelligence available in the juror selection pool.
      Does that mean I can sue the state for selecting me twice for jury duty and use my IQ test results as evidence that they were guilty of defamation of character? Please provide evidence of your claims with full citations that would hold up in court.

      Jury trial in this regard with class action status for all living jurors that have served could make for an interesting discussion as to whether or not it influenced the jury's decision, considering they would have an interest in the results. Wonder if this would cause the defense to be lavish in their praise of intelligent juries while being extremely careful not to use words the juries might not understand. Would love to watch the defense trip over themselves on this.
    12. Re:Why? by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      An appeals court only rules on questions of law and leaves questions of fact to the jury because the jury heard the testimony and can judge for themselves how credible the witnesses were. The trial judge, however, is given more latitude because he (or she) heard everything the jury did.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    13. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and maybe we can even return to the era of all-white juries sentencing every nigger that comes in front of them.
      You say that like it's a bad thing. Yours, Ron Paul.
    14. Re:Why? by Follis · · Score: 1

      Not in the U.S.A.

    15. Re:Why? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Not in the U.S.A.
      Actually, yes, in the USA.
      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    16. Re:Why? by JerkBoB · · Score: 1

      Which makes it all the more unfortunate that juries are usually very deliberately filtered down to the lowest common denominator of intelligence available in the juror selection pool.

      Does that mean I can sue the state for selecting me twice for jury duty and use my IQ test results as evidence that they were guilty of defamation of character? Please provide evidence of your claims with full citations that would hold up in court.

      What he means is that the lawyers attempt to whittle the jury down to the lowest common denominator, through the process of voir dire. It's a battle between the prosecution and the defense, in which both sides attempt to reject potential jurors who are seen as unsuitable to hear the case. In other words, they try to chuck out jurors who are obviously opinionated and/or informed about current events. Unfortunately, this often results in the aforementioned "dumb juror" effect.
      --
      A host is a host from coast to coast...
      Unless it's down, or slow, or fails to POST!
    17. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so now you have people going to jail for 25 years for jaywalking Seriously? If that is true, that's just stupid. Especially given that making jaywalking a crime is stupid anyway, if someone is dumb enough to get themselves injured/killed by not crossing the road sensibly then society is probably better off without them. I suppose there is an argument that the pedestrian jaywalking may cause a car to swerve and have a more serious accident, but that would really be the driver's fault who shouldn't swerve in that situation unless he can avoid hitting anything else while doing so.
  3. Refreshing but... by pwnies · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...if dumb lawsuits slowly disappear, where will I get my humor from on /.?

    1. Re:Refreshing but... by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      ...if dumb lawsuits slowly disappear, where will I get my humor from on /.?

      There's always Cowboy Neal, the USSR, Linux, and a beowolf cluster of hot grits. And Microsoft, spelled with a "$". And don't forget the iPoop.

      Ok, is there anybody left I haven't offended with this inane comment?

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    2. Re:Refreshing but... by calebt3 · · Score: 1

      Taco, the trolls, IBM, script kiddies, Bush, Cheney, Adobe...
      I think of more later.

    3. Re:Refreshing but... by ichthyoboy · · Score: 0

      All of the insensitive clods?

    4. Re:Refreshing but... by KublaiKhan · · Score: 1

      Yes, the insensitive clods.

      But they're insensitive by definition.

      --
      In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
      A stately pleasure dome decree
    5. Re:Refreshing but... by Sciros · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      From me!

      Five ninjas do battle against a commando. The commando shoots 2 of them. How many ninjas are left?

      Two, because the others ran away!

      Har har har!

      --
      I like basketball!!1!
    6. Re:Refreshing but... by calebt3 · · Score: 1

      ...Clinton, Obama, Ron Paul, the FCC, FISA, Comcast and freinds, ISA, ECMA, China...

    7. Re:Refreshing but... by provigilman · · Score: 1

      You forgot the MAFIAA.

      --
      "Life's short and hard, like a body building elf." -- The Bloodhound Gang
    8. Re:Refreshing but... by calebt3 · · Score: 1

      ...ninjas, pirates, insensitive clods, Gore, the new guys, Ted Stevens (the 'series of tubes' Senator), our ____________ overlords, the MAFIAA, Vista's UAC, Ballmer, Gates, Netraft, old people in Korea, CATS, sharks w/fricken' lasers, BSD, Ars Technica, EA Games, WoW fans, AMD, Intel, NVidia, ATI, Dell & friends, OLPC...

    9. Re:Refreshing but... by teknopurge · · Score: 2

      in soviet russia.....

      humor gets YOU!

    10. Re:Refreshing but... by Satanboy · · Score: 1

      ...if dumb lawsuits slowly disappear, where will I get my humor from on /.?


      there's always Jack Thompson and Duke Nukem!
    11. Re:Refreshing but... by Trails · · Score: 1

      Don't forget NAMBLA!

    12. Re:Refreshing but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Goatse, GNAA, ArcherB, Hitler, Godwin, the planet Uranus...

    13. Re:Refreshing but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dumb lawsuits won't disappear, but even if they did there is an endless supply of idiots who are bound to do something...funny. The Darwin awards for example.

  4. Wow. by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I never thought this one would stand up to appeal...The judge threw out the jury verdict and then made the plaintiff pay the court costs. Read that again: he threw out the jury verdict.

    And the appeals court backed him up! Holy crap! I guess that's one way to deal with stupid juries and slick lawyers...Get some decent judges who aren't willing to put up with the crap.

    --
    ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    1. Re:Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the appeals court backed him up! Holy crap! I guess that's one way to deal with stupid juries and slick lawyers...Get some decent judges who aren't willing to put up with the crap.

      And patient defense lawyers too that didn't screw it up. Too bad RIM didn't use this defence and go the distance.

    2. Re:Wow. by terrymr · · Score: 1

      This is not that unusual - the reason it happens is something like this :

      The judge hears all the evidence and concludes that it's not even close the defendant should win.

      If he dismisses the case before it goes to the jury he can be certain that it will be appealed. If he lets the jury come back with a verdict in favor of the plaintiff it likely ends there. When this goes wrong and the jury returns an obviously stupid verdict the judge overrules it knowing that there will be an appeal but the defendant is no worse off than if the case had been dismissed before the jury verdict.

    3. Re:Wow. by DragonWriter · · Score: 4, Informative

      If he dismisses the case before it goes to the jury he can be certain that it will be appealed. If he lets the jury come back with a verdict in favor of the plaintiff it likely ends there. When this goes wrong and the jury returns an obviously stupid verdict the judge overrules it knowing that there will be an appeal but the defendant is no worse off than if the case had been dismissed before the jury verdict.


      IIRC, the important difference that this glosses over is that if the judge enters a decision prior to the verdict (a judgement as a matter of law), rather than overturning the jury verdict, if there is an appeal and the judge's decision is thrown out on appeal, it can require a empaneling a new jury and trying the case again. Whereas, if the jury returns a verdict and the judge enters a JNOV and that is appealed, the original jury verdict still exists and can be entered (or modified less radically.)
    4. Re:Wow. by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      Jury is an outrageous abuse of both democracy and legal system. It is basically a competition between lawyers who will manipulate better the ignorant randomly selected civilians.

      Judges should be elected from amongst the most trustworthy citizens with legal education. "12 angry men" my butt.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    5. Re:Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's nothing. I like it when plaintiffs shop around for the friendliest county to file their suit. There is one county in Texas that is a favorite with patent suits and one in NY that is a favorite for suits against corporations because the people there treat lawsuits like winning the lottery.

    6. Re:Wow. by phliar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Jury is an outrageous abuse of both democracy and legal system. It is basically a competition between lawyers who will manipulate better the ignorant randomly selected civilians.

      Only because some citizens do everything possible to not get on a jury. As the old joke goes, juries are made up of people too stupid to get out of jury duty. (How many times have you done your civic duty and served on a jury?)

      If we picked our government at random from the citizens things wouldn't be as fucked up as they are today.

      --
      Unlimited growth == Cancer.
    7. Re:Wow. by urcreepyneighbor · · Score: 1

      Read that again: he threw out the jury verdict. Scary.

      Get some decent judges who aren't willing to put up with the crap. Even scarier.

      So, hm, you don't care much for the "trial by jury" thing?

      Oh, you do? But only when you agree with the verdict?

      There's a word for that sort of system.... I can't think of it atm.
      --
      "The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
    8. Re:Wow. by SpinyNorman · · Score: 1

      Try reading the article... The judge overturned the jury verdict because the plaintiffs lawyers had deliberately mislead them by deliberately ignoring his instructions.

      If you're such a fan of trial by jury, then you should indeed be thankful that there are judges who slap down laywers who try to make an end run around the system!

    9. Re:Wow. by jeti · · Score: 1

      Jury is an outrageous abuse of both democracy and legal system. It is basically a competition between lawyers who will manipulate better the ignorant randomly selected civilians. Would you make similar claims about elections? If not, what is the critical difference?
    10. Re:Wow. by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      Elections are completely different. They're a competition between *tv channels* who will manipulate better the ignorant civilians.

      It's the known flaw in democracy - voters are generally just voting for the guy who their parents voted for/has the best hair/looks like them - they are not voting on issues. That's why we have representatives (senators, mps, call them what you like) whose job is to actually know what the fuck they're voting about.

      Unfortunately on that last point there's a small problem :p

    11. Re:Wow. by kalirion · · Score: 1

      All we really know about the case is what the judge did, and that the appeals court backed him up. Is that really enough to base an opinion? We don't know what the lawyers did to piss him off besides the vague "disobeying instructions." We don't know what those instructions were. Not nearly enough facts here for an informed opinion.

    12. Re:Wow. by Hittman · · Score: 1

      Would you make similar claims about elections? If not, what is the critical difference?

      Yes. I honestly think that picking out random adults and sticking them in political positions would result in a more honest, more useful, and at the very least, far more interesting system than we have today. Sure, there would be plenty of incompetents in place, but how would that be different than what we have now?

    13. Re:Wow. by penguin_dance · · Score: 1

      This case notwithstanding, am I the only one who has a problem with judges who throw out jury verdicts? I've been a jurist on a couple of cases, one civil and one criminal. Nobody in there was stupid or took their duty lightly. I take offense that when something like this comes up, the jury is labeled as being "stupid". A lot of times we don't hear evidence that everyone else reading the paper does, because it's not allowed. That's not our fault--blame the system. Or the opposite, we hear things that the paper isn't going to include if it doesn't fit their slant on the case.

      If the judge thought the lawyers were going beyond their scope, why didn't he: A) Throw the case out; or B) Make his ruling before the jury went to deliberate?

      It seems to me these judges want the jury to do the dirty work and when they don't rule the way the judge would, the judge just throws it out and rules the way he wants. It insults the jury (and you wonder why people don't want to serve) and wastes their time. No better example could be seen in the mauling case of Diane Whipple. Although the jury found neighbor and lawyer Marjorie Knoller guilty (IMO, rightfully so) of 2nd degree murder, the judge struck it down to involuntary manslaughter which meant 4 years instead of a possible 15 years--she served only 2 before being paroled. (The jury verdict in this case may seem extreme, but if you saw the case or read it at the link above, you'll see why the jury reached that verdict.) Now--if that judge thought that second degree murder sentence was too harsh or there was not enough evidence to convict on that, he could have removed it from the choices the jury had before they went to deliberate. But, once again, we had a judge who hoped the jury would do his dirty work for him.

      And regarding people who don't want to serve on trials: Personally, if I was a defendant I sure would NOT want people on the jury who REALLY don't want to be there.

      --
      If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
    14. Re:Wow. by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      I would. IMHO, citizens should elect somebody locally from people they know for years by being neighbors, by working in the same office. Then the elected ones elect the next level, etc.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    15. Re:Wow. by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      Juries have their flaws, not like you present them but they do have flaws. People in general aren't ignorant, but you are and you would be quite surprised by the people on juries had you ever been a juror.

      A panel of 12 "approved" jurors, typically called a grand jury in the US is used to establish whether there is sufficient facts to hold over for trial in a criminal case. It's extremely ignorant to declare that juries are the problem and make the claim that they should be elected from trustworthy citizens with legal education. Such a scenario would enact that juries be comprised of the most trusted lawyers of whatever political party is in charge and would highly bias the US judicial system. You completely ignore the founders purpose in establishing the Jury so that the executive, legislative and judicial branches of government could not conspire to act against people with the power of the state because 12 ordinary and randomly selected people have to go along with it. This is key to a fair and free judicial system, and essential to protecting liberty, because even though the judiciary won't allow discussion of it in court, Jury nullification is a real thing and does happen and was a key point of the founders belief in the Jury system.

      I mean why not take your system a bit further and have the jury be twelve military officers, then we could all be subject to the UCMJ and the ultra harsh punishments that come with it.

    16. Re:Wow. by jdjbuffalo · · Score: 1

      If we picked our government at random from the citizens things wouldn't be as fucked up as they are today. Agreed to a point. There are something things that wouldn't be good though. I don't want Joe, never graduated from high school and still works as a Cashier at McDonald's at age 35, to be one of those people. There should be at least some reasonable standards for who would get chosen.

      Only because some citizens do everything possible to not get on a jury. There is a way around this that I think is reasonable (although I'm sure there are many that will disagree with me). You make it mandatory that a business pays the person who's on the jury his/her full wage for the duration. You could still allow some special provisions for really long trials (more than a week). Considering how rarely people get called (about 5 times during your adult life) it's not all the inconvenient and if everyone has to do it then it's not much of an extra burden to let an employee take time out to do their civic duty.
      --
      We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.
    17. Re:Wow. by Kazrath · · Score: 1

      But our current system is great. They pull in 50 people.. kick out all of the ones with IQ's below 50 and above 55 and tend to try to keep only the ones that are pretty obviously sharing their viewpoints or are in a demographic that most likely will.

      Jury should be 100% random... there should be x number assigned to a case and the lawyers should have 0 say in who they are. That would be a "Random" system that is significantly more fair than this hand picked bullshit that goes on now.

    18. Re:Wow. by Darinbob · · Score: 2, Informative

      Only because some citizens do everything possible to not get on a jury. As the old joke goes, juries are made up of people too stupid to get out of jury duty. (How many times have you done your civic duty and served on a jury?)
      Once I've served on a jury. I've been questioned as a potential jurist several other times before being dismissed. I never tried to get out of it by lying. There's a big difference between "stupid" and being ethical.

      The problem perhaps is with the big cases that are well known and likely to take several months to try. It becomes very difficult to find a full jury that can sit on such a case without hardship and also not have formed prior opinions. There are also complicated civil suits where the jury is expected to understand and keep track of tecnical issues over a long period of time. But it seems these cases that are most commonly read about in the news which cause people to say "juries are morons". It ignores all the other cases that take only last a week or two which were comprised of reasonable juries.
    19. Re:Wow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      . . . slick lawyers . . .
      Not all that slick, apparently. After all, the goal is to snooker the jury without pissing off the judge. These bozos not only pissed off the judge, they handed the judge grounds to nail them that held up on appeal.

      . . . stupid juries . . .
      Oh, and give the poor jury a break. Odds are none of them had the training to deal with a patent on computer-assisted surgery. Odds are that none of them had the legal training to recognize a seductive but fallacious argument either.

      YIIALBIANYL. GYOGDL. YMNO.

  5. Common sense? by TitusC3v5 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Is that you? We've missed you!

    --
    And the masses cried out, "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0!"
    1. Re:Common sense? by esocid · · Score: 1

      It's great! It was tied up in a patent trolling case recently and was not allowed to comment.

      --
      Absolute power corrupts absolutely. indymedia
    2. Re:Common sense? by Yath · · Score: 1

      Don't be too gleeful. Remember that the jury returned a verdict for the plaintiff. Where was common sense then?

      --
      I always mod up spelling trolls.
    3. Re:Common sense? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I'm only here a few days. You know, with me being on that damned terrorist watch list and all... I snuck in on a Military transport plane from Germany. Good thing the MP's don't look at your face when they see those fake stars on the uniform....

      Anyways, I'm heading back to Norway after this short stint, as I have to return to normalcy else my equilibrium changes.

      Best wishes to all!!

      C.S.

    4. Re:Common sense? by Lewrker · · Score: 0, Troll

      I might be cynical but I think this only happened because this certain judge wasn't offered a cut of the profit.

    5. Re:Common sense? by zalas · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it was such a Paine without you!

  6. No impact on patents by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Frivolous cases, of all kinds, are often struck down with costs. No reason to think this will have any significant impact on patents, any more than on other laws.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:No impact on patents by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Indeed. I don't see why this is all that revolutionary. It was a patent infringement trial, which gets our attention, but it simply appears to be a judge who felt that the jury was out to lunch and that the plaintiff's lawyers were playing games and wasting the court's time. In short, they pissed off a judge even after being given instructions, and he's responded.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:No impact on patents by DrEldarion · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's significant because typically the lawyers aren't the ones paying the opposing team's costs. Usually, the lawyers always win every trial, because they get paid no matter what. If you punish the lawyers themselves for going ahead with cases they know are frivolous, then you'll start to see far, far fewer lawyers taking frivolous cases.

    3. Re:No impact on patents by pete-classic · · Score: 5, Informative
      I see you didn't make it to the seventh paragraph of the article:

      "In 42 years of litigation, I've never seen a judge set aside a verdict, then award fees to opposing counsel," said local attorney Robert Miller, of Perkins Coie LLP. "There are times when a verdict is set aside, and times when lawyers are sanctioned. But I've never heard of them happening in one case.


      -Peter
    4. Re:No impact on patents by MadJeff451 · · Score: 1

      Frivolous cases, of all kinds, are often struck down with costs.
      Disagree. From the article:

      "In 42 years of litigation, I've never seen a judge set aside a verdict, then award fees to opposing counsel," said local attorney Robert Miller, of Perkins Coie LLP. "There are times when a verdict is set aside, and times when lawyers are sanctioned. But I've never heard of them happening in one case.
      In other words the judge called the jury on a bad decision, and took the additional step of penalizing the lawyers who brought the case to court. Apparently that's quite rare (but I'm no lawyer).
    5. Re:No impact on patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you'll see lawyers forcing clients to sign contracts that have indemnity clauses...

      The real question is, who do you get to dispense legal advice about the contract?

    6. Re:No impact on patents by kalirion · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Who decides what's "frivolous"? Is it the same people who decide what's "obscene"?

    7. Re:No impact on patents by mstone · · Score: 1

      According to TFA, it's no big deal to see either of the sanctions individually (overturning a jury verdict / making counsel pay), but rare to see both happen at once.

      The plaintiff carried out part of the case on its own, then fired its internal lawyers and brought in an outside firm. According to the judge, the outside lawyers knew that the case was meritless from the moment they took it, but decided to try and game the legal system anyway. The fact that his ruling was upheld on appeal means they must have been pushing pretty hard.

    8. Re:No impact on patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see you didn't make it to the seventh paragraph

      It's my fault. My generation let him grow up in front of MTV.

    9. Re:No impact on patents by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      Where was this guy in the SCO case!

    10. Re:No impact on patents by TuringTest · · Score: 1

      Well yes, as long as it's something that only affects to yourself.

      --
      Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
  7. Law is a slow beast to change, by design by newgalactic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Law is a slow beast to change, by design. Technology will advance much faster then Law. As a result, we'll continue to see issues like the one we face with "patent infringement". But, Law does eventually change to correct itself. I'm relieved to see that things are working as they should.

    1. Re:Law is a slow beast to change, by design by aztektum · · Score: 1

      How does that explain crap like the PATRIOT Act or any other crud passed in a hurry since 9/11?? Law changes quickly when it benefits the right people.

      --
      :: aztek ::
      No sig for you!!
    2. Re:Law is a slow beast to change, by design by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      I think it's still illegal to drive a motor vehicle through my town after dark unless two men bearing lanterns walk in front of it. Does this mean that could change soon?

      Yippee!

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    3. Re:Law is a slow beast to change, by design by Alistar · · Score: 1

      I would think that having headlights on your car would fulfill the spirit of this particular law.

      I can't imagine this surviving any sort of review in a court room.

  8. Re:Patent troll? How about yellow journalist? by chimpo13 · · Score: 2, Funny

    As long as the 21st Amendment doesn't get infringed upon. No one cares about the others.

  9. You're all missing the point... by quickpick · · Score: 1

    Whenever a cavalier S.O.B. gets kicked square in the nuts there should be much rejoicing.

  10. Did I miss something? by jmichaelg · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Reading the article (gasp!) left me with the impression that the Judge was ticked off because of the attorney's behavior and method of prosecuting their case and not that the Judge thought the patents were bogus. It's as if the plaintiff is getting nailed because it hired a pair of SOB's to press its case.

    Perhaps there's a clearer report out there?

    1. Re:Did I miss something? by esocid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Reading the article (gasp!) left me with the impression that the Judge was ticked off because of the attorney's behavior and method of prosecuting their case and not that the Judge thought the patents were bogus. It's as if the plaintiff is getting nailed because it hired a pair of SOB's to press its case.
      I believe that is partially the point. They wasted the court's time by pursuing a case that was baseless and had no grounds by simply trying to litigate the other company out of existence. The prosecuting lawyers acting like arrogant fools trying to make a buck in the world of patent trolling. But just for fun here is another link to the story and the judge's ruling (PDF).
      --
      Absolute power corrupts absolutely. indymedia
    2. Re:Did I miss something? by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Reading the article (gasp!) left me with the impression that the Judge was ticked off because of the attorney's behavior and method of prosecuting their case and not that the Judge thought the patents were bogus. It's as if the plaintiff is getting nailed because it hired a pair of SOB's to press its case.

      I read the same article. That's not how I read it. There were apparently 2 problems.
      1) The lawsuit was frivolous and that caused the judge to set aside the jury verdict. The jury blew it, but they usually do in patent cases.
      2) The attorneys acted in a bad manner, disregarding some specific instructions from the judge and proceeding onward in a case which the judge felt should never have gone to trial. But that is what attorneys do, as they know sometimes when you roll the dice, a stupid jury goes your way.

      Judges don't like their time being wasted - at all. I see only good coming from this.

    3. Re:Did I miss something? by BuhDuh · · Score: 1
      I (gasp!) rtfpdf (thanks for the link), and it seems to me this judge simply lost control over proceedings and got pissed at himself:

      The jury found for the plaintiffs but the verdict was set aside by this Court's order granting the Rule 50(b) motion. Mem. Op. and Order, Feb. 24, 2006 [doc. 545]. The premises of that order were for the most part the same as those presented in the defendants' motions for summary judgment. In retrospect [my emphasis], those motions should have been granted, saving BrainLAB the cost of a 13-day jury trial. In setting aside the jury's verdict, this Court found that misleading trial tactics by the MWE lawyers. And later:

      When cross-examining Mr. Vilsmeier, Mr. McMahon (in response to objections) represented that BrainLAB's FDA letter was not going to be used for the purpose of making product-to-product comparisons. Tr. at 1925:19 - 1926:18. On this issue, the parameters had been established. Counsel were obligated to observe the court's admonitions and to comply with their own representations to the Court.
      --
      Enlightenment? It's just a flush in the pan.
    4. Re:Did I miss something? by jellie · · Score: 1

      I read through his ruling, and I think he was saying that, in retrospect, he should have dismissed the case. At the time, however, he felt that narrowing the patent infringement claims would have been unfair to the plaintiffs. It's not his job to decide whether BrainLAB infringed on SNT's patent, so he decided to let a jury hear the case.

      Despite having dropped many of the claims of patent infringement, the plaintiff's lawyers proceeded to tell the jury how the defendent violated those same patent claims. And with respect to the second paragraph you quoted, the plaintiff's lawyers made that comparison in the closing arguments to the jury, which (the judge believed) was highly unfair. Though I wonder why he didn't object to the lawyers' behavior then. In any case, the lawyers took a statement from BrainLAB's FDA application out of context, using the phrase "substantially equivalent" to imply that the defendent admitted to infringing a patent, when it was talking about functionality of the product.

  11. You forgot me! by Weaselmancer · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...you insensitive clod!

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
    1. Re:You forgot me! by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, this is abuse. You want 12a, down the hall.

      Stupid git!

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  12. Separate the Patent from the Lawyers by CajunArson · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The article notes that the technology here is for guiding scalpels to do precision work on brain tumors, so the subject matter is highly technical in nature. I'd like to see what the actual patents involved are before making a judgment. This case might have come down to the (apparently off the wall) behavior of the lawyers, even if the plaintiff may have had a legitimate case.
        One thing you have to remember is that (with rare exceptions) the court is only going to go with the arguments that each side presents. It is not the judge's or jury's job to go out and collect evidence and make up a decision, it is instead their job to decide the case based on the evidence actually submitted and arguments actually made by opposing parties (this is called the "adversarial system"). Even if the plaintiff may have had a case, if these lawyers went out and did a completely shitty job of presenting it, presented no real evidence, and made no real legal arguments, then they can and will lose the case. The extra sanctions here are quite unusual, and go beyond the negative consequences of just not doing a good job of lawyering. I think that these "respected litigators" were probably ignoring the judge's instructions and committing other infractions that REALLY pissed the judge off. On appeal, the court does NOT hear new facts, so the appeals court went with the factual record and judgment of the District Court judge on this one.

    --
    AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
    1. Re:Separate the Patent from the Lawyers by martin-boundary · · Score: 1
      If one is going to defend the adversarial system, then logically one can't separate the patent from the lawyers. It's not meaningful to worry about what the patent says, rather it's only meaningful to ask what the lawyers choose to present as facts and arguments.

      In particular, reading the patent for yourself to see if it has any merit is irrelevant to the question of justice (in the adversarial system). Also, even talking of a legitimate case (ie separately from the lawyers arguments or behaviour) is meaningless for the same reason.

      The Inquisitorial system is an alternative legal system where questions of objective merit do actually make sense. This is because in that system, a judge is supposed to independently find out all the relevant aspects, both positive and negative, of the case, regardless of whether the lawyers decide to bring it up.

  13. Judge Matsch in the news by kalpol · · Score: 4, Informative

    Judge Matsch was the presiding judge at Timothy McVeigh's trial, if anyone remembers.

    --
    12:50 - press return.
    1. Re:Judge Matsch in the news by Rampantbaboon · · Score: 1

      I really want to buy that man a beer even more now.

  14. Keep hacking away at it! by aapold · · Score: 1, Funny

    Patent Trolls have fast healing 7... the judge tried using some acid to make sure it stayed down but I'm not sure...

    --
    "Waste not one watt!" - CZ
  15. Details? by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1
    The Denver Post story nor the Slashdot write-up give any detail about what the exact claims where in this case, so while it *MIGHT* be a patent troll case (and given the judge's remarks, that seems likely), it's kind of hard to really tell, from what we know.

    But, this is Slashdot, guilty as charged...

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    1. Re:Details? by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      The Denver Post story nor the Slashdot write-up give any detail about what the exact claims where in this case, so while it *MIGHT* be a patent troll case (and given the judge's remarks, that seems likely), it's kind of hard to really tell, from what we know.

      But, this is Slashdot, guilty as charged...

      The link to the ruling above shows that this isn't really a patent trolling case. It started out as normal patent litigation but grew more and more complex. The initial claims were rebutted but the plaintiff's lawyers convinced the jury by misleading arguments despite being admonished by the judge several times. "The Court has already concluded that Medtronic engaged in litigation misconduct during the trial. That same misconduct also supports the conclusion that Medtronic continued this suit vexatiously after the claims were construed."
    2. Re:Details? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since the article indicates that one of the objectionable actions of the attorneys was to compare the products of the defendant and the plaintiff, it stands to reason that the plaintiff is not a patent troll (as patent trolls are broadly defined as commercial operations generating/purchasing patents for licensing or suit, without producing commercial products)

  16. Re:Patent troll? How about yellow journalist? by flyneye · · Score: 2, Informative

    Anon cow forgets that the Federal United States is a different entity than the several states u.s. The constitution applys to the several states.
    Translation: once you step foot on federal ground (courthouse,military base,atomic test sites,U.S.highways,etc.) your constitutional rights are more like constitutional favors you are granted if they feel like it. Other ways you are wangled out of your rights are by having a Federal address on your house(for reasons of recieving mail from Federal Post Office, signing documents whose fine print makes you subservient to Federal regulation, etc.)In other words Your constitutional rights were lost long ago by sneaky legislation hidden in history and enacted for the convenience of the Federal Government.
            Many may disagree but will find that it explains the carte blanche the Fed takes with regards to things like wiretapping,income taxes,national debt. and other things that nothing ever gets done about and even the press blindly accept now.Anyone who speaks up is instantly just a nut job and taken for granted because after all,"whoever heard of such a thing? They never taught us anything like that in (Federally funded)school! We are a Democracy(only since the last century) and pay our fair share of taxes(also from the same time frame) .

    --
    *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
  17. Utah is in Tenth Circuit by tyrantking31 · · Score: 1

    This is great because the earlier article entitled "Apple, Starbucks Sued Over Music Gift Cards" concerns a Utah couple (they are both attorneys) who presumably brought their patent suit in Utah, which is a part of the 10th Circuit. All of which means they should have known better.

    --
    We willna be fooled again!
  18. Judge Make Lawyers Pay For Frivolous Patent Suit by sm62704 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Me make fun of illiterate editors

    --
    mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  19. Narrow the scope perhaps by Linker3000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "could this case be the 'shot heard round the world' in the revolution against patent trolls?"

    Not until/unless (take your pick) US legal jurisdiction extends round the world - on an official level!

    --
    AT&ROFLMAO
    1. Re:Narrow the scope perhaps by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry...did those people not in the US think they were part of the world? How quaint.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    2. Re:Narrow the scope perhaps by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      I have no idea why you were modded up, because your comment is stupid.

      The "shot heard round the world" refers to the shots fired at Lexington and Concord that started the American Revolutionary War. It is metaphor for something that starts a major change. It does not mean that it will effect the entire world.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    3. Re:Narrow the scope perhaps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 'shot hear round the world' is not a metaphor - it is exaggeration for effect. There was an actual shot in Lexington.

      Reference to it here is as a simile because the argument is that this would be like the 'shot heard round the world' not that it is the shot heard round the world - unless we are talking about shooting patent lawyers.

      Finally, the use of the phrase 'round the world' certainly seems to claim that it affects the entire world. Don't be stupid yourself for claiming that when you say 'round the world' it doesn't mean the entire world. You could have fooled me because I thought that Americans believe that the rest of the world gives a toss about the American Revolution.

    4. Re:Narrow the scope perhaps by Linker3000 · · Score: 1

      How ironic that you assume that a US metaphor is known and used round the world.

      --
      AT&ROFLMAO
  20. out is i? by loid_void · · Score: 1

    Yes, so it is who used the words, "out there?" Qualitatively speaking. And out there may be "in there," as far as we are concerned, and on many other occasion, "right on."

    --
    Anyone seen my jagged little pill?
    1. Re:out is i? by hedwards · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Unfortunately, right now, "Out there" could very well mean exercising some degree of intelligence and common sense.

      With over 200 years of laws stacking on top of each other, stacked upon a constitution which was written vaguely in places and ammended nearly 30 times, which borrows some concepts from completely outside of those sources, it is definitely possible to justify most positions with enough technicalities.

      The 2nd ammendment is a good example.

      A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. That is taken by many people to mean that it is unconstitutional to regulate firearms. But the word firearm doesn't appear anywhere in it, nor does a word which logically extends there unambiguously. One could easily say that rights from individuals owning muskets to hydrogen bombs and mutated anthrax for duck hunting and right to form up a militia to overthrow the federal government are protected there. Almost, if not all, people will find at least one thing in that list which they don't think people should be allowed to own or possess. But those are all things which could be inferred to be protected if one wasn't utilizing enough common sense.

      In this case, it sounds to me like the judge got tired of the plaintiff's attorneys disregarding courtroom procedure and tainting the results. I've often felt that judges weren't going anywhere near far enough to enforce profesional conduct in the courtroom. I'm a little bit surprised that he didn't bother to reference rule 13, IIRC.

      &Standard IANAL clause;
    2. Re:out is i? by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Almost, if not all, people will find at least one thing in that list which they don't think people should be allowed to own or possess. But those are all things which could be inferred to be protected if one wasn't utilizing enough common sense.


      The wording is quite clear. All of those things are supposed to be protected. If you think the state of arms has advanced to the point that people should be restricted from some of them, the process for amending the Constitution is also quite clearly outlined. In fact, must of the 2nd Amendment boosters (like the NRA) would probably agree that we should amend so as to be able to outlaw things like anthrax (but carefully word it so we don't accidentally ban home-canning). I would suggest wording to the effect of allowing regulation in the specific case of weapons which both have large effect and are not conspicuous until deployed.

      Since the main purposes of that amendment were to distribute the tools of protecting the nation efficiently and ubiquitously and to engender a healthy fear in the hearts of would-be tyrants, and privately owned canons were part of the list of arms which were usefully employed in the revolutionary war, It is important to preserve the spirit of the amendment and the right to own capital weapons, even as you restrict weapons of great terrorizing potential.

      When you start splitting hairs over how to interpret rights away instead of voluntary ceding of rights by constitutional convention, you open up a whole can of contemptuous worms. What about Free Speech? Surely the founders didn't intend media advertisements for or against incumbent politicians around election time. Or the right to be secure in your papers? Surely they didn't mean that you could travel without being searched. Right?

      If you let the government do something without explicitly allowing it to do that thing and only that thing, you open a window by which the government can do anything.
      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    3. Re:out is i? by Dhalka226 · · Score: 1

      That is taken by many people to mean that it is unconstitutional to regulate firearms. But the word firearm doesn't appear anywhere in it, nor does a word which logically extends there unambiguously.

      Am I reading that correctly by thinking that you're saying that assuming "Arms" refers to "firearms" is not a logical extension? It certainly seems both logical and reasonable to me, just semantically. If you add in some of the history it's relatively obvious that is what they're talking about. Pretty much nobody disputes THAT. Rather, they dispute either who it refers to (a well-regulated militia or an individual?) or what exactly "Arms" means (my musket seems safe, what about a stick of TNT?).

      One could easily say that rights from individuals owning muskets to hydrogen bombs and mutated anthrax for duck hunting

      That is my position. Not because I'm an anarchist, or a lunatic who thinks that would be a good idea. Not because I think all of those things actually should be protected. Rather, that's my position because of how I interpret the clause based on my understandings of the history, language and construction of the Constitution--and because the Constitution is supposed to be the highest law of the land. Sad as it seems, if the Constitution and common sense conflict our system is supposed to defer to the Constitution.

      That said, I would ABSOLUTELY support an amendment that bans those more crazy items and I bet you would have no problem whatsoever blowing well past the amount of support you need to pass it. I can't quite decide whether or not I would even support an amendment that repealed the second amendment entirely and replaced it with "Congress will regulate arms however it damn well pleases, now STFU."

      In short, the Constitution says SOMETHING--unfortunately this case is one of the more ambiguous passages you can find--but if we think that common sense contradicts it the correct way to handle that is by using the amendment process we've constructed to change the meaning, not simply ignoring it like it isn't there. For that matter, why not just do this to remove the ambiguity as well? (Well, that's rhetorical; it's a political decision.)

      and right to form up a militia to overthrow the federal government are protected there.

      Hmm? I think your bias is showing through there. One could argue my right to form up a militia would be protected, sure, but that passage says absolutely nothing about how one can use any of these things. Even with the most liberal interpretation of the second amendment, high treason is not protected behavior any more so than it would be legal for me to shoot somebody in the skull just because I have a right to bear arms.

      Almost, if not all, people will find at least one thing in that list which they don't think people should be allowed to own or possess. But those are all things which could be inferred to be protected if one wasn't utilizing enough common sense.

      This seems to be the crux of the trip-up. Law and especially constitutionality is not about what people want or what common sense dictates. These things should shape the laws, they shouldn't be applied in lieu of them. If the law says one thing and common sense says another, the law should win until enough people with common sense band up and change it.

  21. Judge Matsch's opinion and order by Anita+Coney · · Score: 4, Informative

    United States District Court,
    D. Colorado.
    MEDTRONIC NAVIGATION, INC., Medtronic Sofamor Danek, Inc., Sofamor Danek Holdings, Inc., St. Louis University, and Trustees of Dartmouth College, Plaintiffs,
    v.
    BRAINLAB MEDIZINISCHE COMPUTERSYSTEMS GMBH, Brainlab AG, Brainlab USA, Inc., and Brainlab, Inc., Defendants.
    Civil Action No. 98-cv-01072-RPM.
    Feb. 12, 2008.

    Anthony Lawrence Giacomini, Sean Connelly, Daniel M. Reilly, Hoffman, Reilly, Pozner & Williamson, L.L.P., Conor Fitzgerald Farley, Lee Frederick Johnston, Holland & Hart, LLP, Denver, CO, J. James Li, Vera M. Elson, McDermott Will & Emery, LLP, Palo Alto, CA, Krista Leigh Vink Venegas, McDermott, Will & Emery, Los Angeles, CA, Kurt A. Luther, Leslie I. Bookoff, Finnegan, Henderson, Farabow Garrett & Dunner, Washington, DC, David W. Harlan, Senniger Powers, St. Louis, MO, for Plaintiffs.

    James Edward Hartley, Holland & Hart, LLP, Denver, CO.

    Jay R. Campbell, John J. Del Col, Joshua M. Ryland, Renner, Otto, Boisselle & Sklar, LLP, Kyle B. Fleming, Cleveland, OH, L. Andrew Cooper, Marc David Flink, Thomas H. Shunk, Baker & Hostetler, Denver, CO, for Defendants.

    ORDER FOR AWARD OF ATTORNEY FEES AND COSTS TO BRAINLAB DEFENDANTS

    RICHARD P. MATSCH, Senior District Judge.
    *1 The defendants (collectively BrainLAB) seek to recover all of their attorney fees and costs incurred in the defense of this suit for patent infringement, contending that it was filed and prosecuted not to protect the technology protected by the patent claims but to drive a competitor out of a market for an emerging technology for application in the navigation of surgical instruments in procedures requiring exquisite precision, as in the removal of a brain tumor. Medtronic Navigation, Inc. (Medtronic) and its predecessor Surgical Navigation Technologies, Inc. (SNT) marketed variations of a device called "StealthStation" in competition with BrainLAB's "VectorVision" devices. The accused devices can be described as passive optical systems in contrast to an active acoustic system. That contrasting technology was at the core of this case.

    BrainLAB contends that it is entitled to fees and costs because this is an exceptional case justifying relief under 35 U.S.C. 285; that plaintiffs' lead counsel should be held responsible under 28 U.S.C. 1927 and that the Court should grant the motion in the exercise of its inherent authority to protect the integrity of the processes of adjudication. Upon reflection, this Court finds and concludes that the rulings on the claims construction issues adjudicated the fairly debatable issues in this case and that the manner in which plaintiffs' counsel continued the prosecution of the claims through trial was in disregard of their obligations as officers of the court. The fairness of the adversary system of adjudication depends upon the assumption that trial lawyers will temper zealous advocacy of their client's cause with an objective assessment of its merit and be candid in presenting it to the court and to opposing counsel. When that assumption has been contradicted by a trial record of conduct reflecting a winning is all that is important approach to the trial process, the court has a duty to redress this resulting harm to the opposing party.

    BrainLAB has made a plausible argument that this entire civil action was frivolous. The chronology of the suit must be viewed against the backdrop of developments in the field of image-guided surgical navigation technology.

    In approximately 1991, SNT began development of an image-guided surgical navigation product. SNT worked with Dr. Richard Bucholz of St. Louis University. SNT also collaborated with Dr. Peter Heilbrun of the University of Utah. In 1994, SNT obtained rights to the application for patent that issued as U.S. Patent No. B1 5,383,454 to Bucholz (the 454 Patent or the Bucholz Patent). The claims of that patent relate to a system that depends on the activation of sound emitters on a surgical instrument and the pati

    --
    If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
  22. Could this case be the 'shot' against trolls? by DRJlaw · · Score: 4, Informative

    Simply put, no.

    "After the court issued its claim construction rulings, Medtronic's counsel proceeded cavalierly, with reckless indifference to the merits of Medtronic's infringement claims," Matsch wrote."

    "Matsch said the McDermott lawyers willfully ignored his rulings on claim construction in their arguments before a Colorado jury in 2005. In patent cases, those orders define the scope of the patents and, therefore, what the plaintiff's lawyers can argue for infringement."

    "The judge said in his Tuesday ruling that while McDermott paid lip service to the orders, the lawyers improperly pointed the jury toward Medtronic's broad reading of the patents. McMahon also made comparisons of the two companies' products, the StealthStation and VectorVision, instead of comparing Medtronic's patents to BrainLAB's product, "contrary to established law," Matsch wrote."

    Summary for lawyers

    In the anatomy of the typical patent case, there is

    1. The filing of a suit
    2. Discovery
    3. A so-called "Markman hearing" to resolve disputes between the litigants as to the meaning of disputed terms or phrases within the patent claims
    4. Summary judgment motions
    5. A trial (bench or jury)
    6. Post-verdict motions
    7. Appeal

    If you read through the judge's ruling, or even the law.com article, it's apparent that the judge believed that the trial was unnecessary, and that the case could and should have been resolved by summary judgment (and any subsequent appeal). If the case had ended at this point, there would likely be no talk of sanctions or the like. Therefore the answer to the question at the end of the summary is no.

    All the rest relates to the judge's determination that 1. the platintiff's attorneys misrepresented the state of the case in their briefs opposing the motions for summary judgment that would have ended the trial phase and 2. the plaintiff's attorneys disregarded both his rulings in case and unequivocable legal standards for what does and does not constitute patent infringement.

    To use bad sports analogies, this ruling is the red card or the technical foul called on the field, not a warning that the team should never have attempted to play the game.

    1. Re:Could this case be the 'shot' against trolls? by Fex303 · · Score: 1

      You missed the 'untap' and 'upkeep' phases.

  23. Disbar Frivolous Lawyers by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The judge should have been able to set against the frivolous lawyers a "strike" that would add up towards disbarment if they did it again. Given repeated frivolity found by courts, lawyers should get a warning, a fine, a suspension and finally disbarment as the strikes accumulate over time, perhaps resetting once a year or 5 or 10 or 20 if not repeated. Perhaps several strikes assigned at once when the frivolity is really serious and the judge wants to push them towards disbarment, or out completely.

    Then lawyers will be a lot more careful about flooding the courts with these worthless cases just because they have nothing better to do (and the client pays). That's their sworn job anyway, as "officers of the court", but they don't honor that oath without teeth when they break it - they're lawyers. And for those who see good cases get rejected just because they're not open/shut for lazy lawyers, that kind of refusal is also grounds for suing lawyers; suits in which the judges typically look very critically on the lawyers who should be staying out of trouble. Maybe that counterbalance needs stronger teeth, too, but there's certainly plenty of ways to get these lawyers to respect the merits of a case, whether trying or refusing it.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Disbar Frivolous Lawyers by Ollabelle · · Score: 1

      Don't count out the "strikes" you mentioned. The client could very well submit a complaint to the appropriate State Bar Association (the judge could, but I doubt it), who will then begin an investigation. It could take a long time, but various State Bar Associations don't treat this conduct lightly. To me, this conduct is approaching Fraud upon the Court and could mean significant trouble for those lawyers.

      --
      Ibid.
  24. as a reminder.. by pig-power · · Score: 0

    Be careful what you wish for. Don't be blinded by the subject to not see that the Judge overturned the juror's decision. It makes me think that the jury was un-needed? But, the jury box is our(we) "the peoples" final test of laws and there justness.

  25. Jack Thompson Your days are numbered by infonography · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If anyone fits the bill of useless waster of Judicial time, it's Jack Thompson. I think that EA might have unleashed him on Take Two to soften them up for a takeover.

    (just kidding)

    Still there is proof he is useless http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_(attorney)

    --
    Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
  26. Re:Judge Make Lawyers Pay For Frivolous Patent Sui by flyingsquid · · Score: 5, Funny
    Me make fun of illiterate editors

    Why you make fun of article? Hulk work hard on article! Not easy. Many long words. Hulk hands big, computer keys tiny!

  27. Stupid Patents Suits Won't Vanish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems that these patent trolls didn't know enough to sue in Marshall, Texas, where all the professionals go.

  28. He did it because the lawyers suckered the jury by Ollabelle · · Score: 5, Informative
    I read a bit of background on this http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202990197454 and noted that the judge in pre-trial motions restricted the construction of the patent claim to fairly narrow grounds. But in the trial, the lawyers ignored that restriction and, among other things, showed the jury how the two competing products were similar rather than showing how the competing product used their client's patent. If effect, the jury based their reasoning on improper evidence. The judge rightfully tossed the verdict and slammed the lawyers for their deceitfulness.

    Now, where's my violin?

    --
    Ibid.
    1. Re:He did it because the lawyers suckered the jury by davidsyes · · Score: 1

      http://violin.en.alibaba.com/product/50076425/50363804/Electric_Cello/Electric_Violin.html

      From GREAT Alibaba...

      KALAMAZOO!

      Here is a VIOlin...

      MADE just for YOU!

      (6,4,6,4... now where is my reward?)

      --
      Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
  29. Loser pays is pad policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    If we had "loser pays" for all civil cases the certain result would be that only rich people and companies could sue anyone.

    Average Joe: I want to sue MegaFoodCorp.
    Lawyer: Why?
    Average Joe: There was glass in the food I bought from them. It severally cut my throat and stomach, I had to be rushed to hospital for surgery. I missed 3 weeks of work and lost my job. Now I have $80,000 hospital bill that I can't pay. Also since I lost my job my house is in forclosure and my wife left me.
    Lawyer: They will spend at least a million bucks defending themselves. Since we have a loser-pays system in this state, you'll need to put a million dollars in escrow just in case we lose. But it sounds like you have no money. Too bad. Sucks to be you.

    1. Re:Loser pays is pad policy by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Apparently you have never heard of torts and contingency fee based lawsuits. In fact, the lawyer would jump at that case and do it on a contingency basis because it would be so easy to get at least a settlement.

      The fun part for the lawyer would be when he started running commercials stating anyone who was injured by glass in MegaFoodCorp's products should call him to see about joining a class action lawsuit. Hell, just the thought of commercials like that would have MegaFoodCorp shitting their pants and offering high 6 figure settlements. After all, look what happened to Wendy's after the "finger in the chili". They were hurt badly, with sales down for months. And, no one was hurt in that one.

      It would go more like this:

      Average Joe: I want to sue MegaFoodCorp.
      Lawyer: Why?
      Average Joe: There was glass in the food I bought from them. It severally cut my throat and stomach, I had to be rushed to hospital for surgery. I missed 3 weeks of work and lost my job. Now I have $80,000 hospital bill that I can't pay. Also since I lost my job my house is in forclosure and my wife left me.
      Lawyer: I will take 30% of what we get. *calls MegaFood*
      Lawyer: Hi, we are suing you. We have evidence of glass contamination resulting in injury. We will be running commercials nationally to find other victims.
      MegaFood Lawyer: We will give you 600,000 shut up, never speak of this again, and go away.
      Lawyer: ChaChing!

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    2. Re:Loser pays is pad policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not how "loser pays" works. The payment of the lawyers on both sides is determined by the amount that is at stake in the suit. There are rules to determine a reasonable amount, so there's no ballooning of lawyer's fees if someone wants 48 million US$ for his lost pair of trousers. The layer's payment is usually quite close to those costs determined by the judge, unless you employ some star-lawyers. If experts are required to determine the facts of the issue at hand, those will be sent and paid for by the justice, but their cost will later be part of what the loser pays.

      Now if you sue someone for 100million and are awarded only 1000, you're the loser in terms of cost - you'll end up paying 99.9% of the court's and lawyers' cost, assuming that your 100million had been accepted at all in the first place.

    3. Re:Loser pays is pad policy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, loser pays sounds good from the perspective of shutting down certain abuses of the legal system, in practice it would make big money immune from lawsuits and make the threat of a lawsuit an even bigger bludgeon for big money than it currently is.

    4. Re:Loser pays is pad policy by king-manic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Insightful my ass: The lose pays system exists in Canada and it has not become a system where only the rich can use the system. There exists programs like Legal-aid which defuse costs to those unable to pay. If you lose a civil suit and must pay costs, the judge has some leeway as to how much can be charged to a person losing a suit. It works in Canada why the hell wouldn't it work in the US? the only losers are Lawyers who would pursue frivolous lawsuits.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    5. Re:Loser pays is pad policy by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      Same in the UK - in fact without that system only the rich could use it... you *win* a lawsuit and pay anyway???? Thats not going to encourage those with little money to take on the big boys.

    6. Re:Loser pays is pad policy by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1

      part of that pad policy:
       
        Average Joe:Where's my 420,000 from the settlement?
        Laywer:Curious you should mention that... We did say 30% of what we get at trial, didn't we? Never went to trial. Oh, and here's our bill for 0.5 hours worked ($2,000) and out of pocket costs ($100 for phone service)

    7. Re:Loser pays is pad policy by sabt-pestnu · · Score: 1
      Could you explain more about how Legal-aid works?

      I found www.canlaw.com, which tells some of the story, but only in how it is promoting its service.

      One thing that did step out at me was their advice...

      If you are on Legal Aid, you MUST get their permission before changing lawyers and they may use this as an excuse to cancel your Legal Aid Certificate. Some things that worry me about the concept are: what if you still can't afford a protracted court case? What if your lawyer turns out to be an obstreperous lemon? And what about appeals? Are they also covered?

      Perhaps you can bring us some insight from folks (lawyers or clients) who have used Legal Aid?
    8. Re:Loser pays is pad policy by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      Perfect! Then a company with lousy procedures that result in glass in their food (and who knows what else) that injures customers can continue operating that way 'business as usual'. Sounds like a great system.

    9. Re:Loser pays is pad policy by INowRegretThesePosts · · Score: 1

      And why do you think that a "loser pays" system would make such a situation more likely?

      By the way, I am not advocating "loser pays". But I think there should be much harsher penalties for barratry. Perhaps the loser should pay if it can be determined that he did not have a reasonable, good faith belief that the case should and could be resolved in his favor, and whenever he built the case in a manner that unnecessarily harasses the defendant (for example, if he sues the defendant an unnecessary number of times).

  30. comment on a comment in the story.. by greywire · · Score: 1

    I just wanted to add something based on a comment in that story, though it may be directly applicable to this particular case.

    The comment had to do with some other case, over the law of adverse possession (which I believe is just another way saying squating). He said in that case the just was just doing his job, and judging based on the law.

    Well that's not entirely correct. Yes, a judges job is to know the law and try to decide if one has been broken or not. And the judge can overide the jury if he chooses. But a judge (and the jury) can also decide to rule in a way disregarding the law at hand, if they believe the law to be wrong. That's one of the important powers of the judicial system and its how laws can get changed.

    In the case of current patent law, its probably going to take more cases like this where the law is disregarded and the jury or judge rule in favor of common sense before our patent system has a chance of being reformed..

    --
    -- Senior Software Engineer, Attorney appearance services, locallawyerapp.com.
  31. Confusion over Judge's conduct in the trial by MobyDisk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    After presiding over the 13-day trial, Matsch wrote that McDermott's lawyers not only disregarded his instructions during the trial but argued "with full awareness that their case was without merit." (IANAL). If the lawyers disregarded the judge's instructions, shouldn't the judge have found them in contempt of court and declared a mistrial? It seems like waiting until the jury came to a decision and then overturning it doesn't result in a fair verdict.
    1. Re:Confusion over Judge's conduct in the trial by davidsyes · · Score: 1

      "It seems like waiting until the jury came to a decision and then overturning it doesn't result in a fair verdict."

      Why should the judge hand-hold these assholes? They are supposed to KNOW better. He laid down the rules, they know the expected conduct, and they flauted his court. So, Judge Matsch should mash their asses up against the wall. Kick em in the balls, kick'em TWICE (to take the sentiment of Gene Hackman's character in Crimson Tide... "Aye, aye, SIR. FIRE the nukes. Drop those fuckers. Drop 'em TWICE!)

      We NEED these kinds of judges with guts, and a firm hand. This should serve as a wakeup call. And if Matsch is rubbed out, then set up a Star Chamber in his name!

      --
      Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
    2. Re:Confusion over Judge's conduct in the trial by KarmaOverDogma · · Score: 1

      (IANAL). If the lawyers disregarded the judge's instructions, shouldn't the judge have found them in contempt of court and declared a mistrial? It seems like waiting until the jury came to a decision and then overturning it doesn't result in a fair verdict.

      He *could* have chosen to hold their hands (like small children), but he did not. More importantly, he DID NOT HAVE TO. These were experienced trial lawyers. They should have known better than to ignore Matsch's instructions, which were well within the realm of judicial authority & precedent.

      They *were* warned.
      They *chose* to ignore the Judge's instructions (over and over again).
      They paid the price.
      Finally, the Appeals court agreed with the judge's reasoning.

      --
      uR iGn0ranc3, Their Power
  32. Re:Judge Make Lawyers Pay For Frivolous Patent Sui by a_nonamiss · · Score: 1

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that the article appears to be edited by Cookie Monster.

    --
    -Arthur
    Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
  33. jury nullification? by HappyEngineer · · Score: 1

    Where does that leave jury nullification? In that situation the jury is explicitly judging the law itself to be unjust. That wasn't the case in this trial, but such a practice would seem to nullify nullification.

    1. Re:jury nullification? by corbettw · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but I believe judges can only set aside guilty verdicts, not innocent verdicts. So if the jury finds the defendant innocent because the law is guilty, the judge can't change it. But if the jury finds the defendant guilty, even though the facts don't support it, the judge can step in and nullify the verdict.

      I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    2. Re:jury nullification? by myth24601 · · Score: 1

      Your right. In the USA, Judges can not over rule an Innocent verdict by a jury in a criminal case and the State can't appeal. The case is over.

      --
      No matter where you go, there you are.
    3. Re:jury nullification? by Captain+Nitpick · · Score: 1

      Your right. In the USA, Judges can not over rule an Innocent verdict by a jury in a criminal case and the State can't appeal. The case is over.

      A not guilty verdict can be successfully appealed by the prosecution if they can show the trial was a fraud. However, this would result in a new trial, not a conviction.

      --
      But then again, I could be wrong.
    4. Re:jury nullification? by nahdude812 · · Score: 1

      In a criminal case, they would have to show that the defendant was never in any danger of getting a guilty verdict. I'm not sure any such case law actually exists. The concept is that of protection from double jeopardy. If the defendant is in any jeopardy of being found guilty, then jeopardy has "attached," and they cannot be tried a second time. It springs up from hundreds of years ago in England, where they would repeatedly try a person for the same crime until they got the outcome they wanted, either through an exhausted legal system, or through an exhausted defense budget.

      Prosecution will request a mistrial before they'd allow this to happen since the burden of proof that there was no jeopardy is so very high. I don't think any such case law exists in the US. You might be able to manage it if the judge nullified the jury's guilty verdict and entered a guilty one, and it was later discovered the judge had been bribed or otherwise coerced into doing so.

      Civil law is a different matter.

  34. Did They Hear It In Marshal? by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    could this case be the 'shot heard round the world' in the revolution against patent trolls?

    Only if they heard it loud and clear in Marshal, Texas.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  35. Re:Could this case be the CourtROOM sonic BOOM? by davidsyes · · Score: 1

    http://www.denverpost.com/popular/ci_8354619

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2007_Dec_31/ai_n21176158

    http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:MDT&morenews=10&rating=1&origin=71

    Probably baaad news for Medtronic?

    They might need to sign up for voluntary procedure at or products from Medasonic.

    http://www.cja-jca.org/cgi/reprint/41/4/281.pdf

    Maybe Judge Matsch's ruling see inCubation in courtrooms, and maybe the standing ruling will cause need for inTubation in shyster lawyers?

    Remember Mr. Mudd, and the saying that followed his demise (your name will be MUD)? Maybe Judge Matsch will be famous for slaying corrupt patent lawyers... The headlines will read:

    Cross THIS judge and you will be MATSCHED Out of Practice"

    --
    Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
  36. I think the client will pay it. by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

    I'm going to go out on a limb here. I've never hired a lawyer, but I would expect each client to sign a contract. I mean, these are lawyers we're talking about here! It would be very easy for a slick lawyer to include a clause placing responsibility for this payment on the client.

    Again, I suspect the client will wind-up paying it anyway!

    --
    I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
    1. Re:I think the client will pay it. by aeschenkarnos · · Score: 1
      The judge can (and most likely has) set aside such contracts. If a judge says YOU pay, and they're prepared to push it to that extent, then YOU will pay. If you then turn around and try to bill your client for it, you'll just have created grounds for your client to have the invoice declared invalid (and you possibly further punished), or if they paid up, to sue you later.

      It's very difficult to mess with judges. Not impossible, mind, but this is one way they've got well covered.

    2. Re:I think the client will pay it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The plaintiff hired the law firm. The firm assigned the two lawyers to the case. The two lawyers are the ones getting the bill. If you went on a business trip and got a ticket for driving recklessly, would you try to write that off on your expense report? I'm sure my ass would be fired if I tried that... perhaps law firms are much more giving and generous employers though.

  37. That is not correct. by pavon · · Score: 3, Informative

    Try purchasing one copy of a book, re-printing it under a new binding with only the content you don't want to censor, then selling it in large quantity -- and see how long you can get away with it. For every DVD that Cleanflix sold, they purchased an original copy at full price. The issue the directors/producers had with them was that they were changing the movies, not that they weren't getting paid.
    1. Re:That is not correct. by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      The issue the directors/producers had with them was that they were changing the movies, not that they weren't getting paid. Which makes the judge's own ruling ironic - according to the findlaw summary, "Second, Judge Matsch said the edits to the movies, although constituting a small percentage of the original films, did nothing to transform the creative expression of the movies."

      So, the judge specifically found that the public complaint (versus the lawyers looking for anything to hang their hat on) of the studios and directors was not true.
    2. Re:That is not correct. by k8to · · Score: 1

      Well, the judge is ruling on matters of law, while this discussion seems to be focused on matters of what is "right". The two are not always in agreement of course.

      --
      -josh
  38. Because... by rewt66 · · Score: 1

    Because the trial judge blew it. The lawyers were pushing the lines as hard as they could, and the trial judge didn't stop them. On the appeal, the lawyers basically said, "Hey, it's the judges job to stop us, and he didn't." So the appeals court overturned the trial verdict, because the trial verdict is invalid if the judge doesn't enforce the rules as to what the jury gets to hear. And the appeals court slammed the lawyers, because they knew what the lines were and stomped all over them anyway, just because the judge let them. The appeals court doesn't think that's acceptable, even if the trial judge lets it slide.

    All in all: Good for the appeals court!

    Note well: IANAL. This is just my opinion, based on reading the ABA summary.

  39. Re:And now... War and Sex by davidsyes · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Generally, when I watch combat or similar films/movies, I too don't want to be bothered by scenes of sex. When I was younger, I'd rail against it or just brood. Nowadays, I just zone through it and think of something else for the 30 or 55 seconds of frivolous sex.

    However, even in peace or just maneuvers, there will be sex.

    When I was in high school JROTC our unit, along with other schools' units from all around the state, went to an army base for various training for about 5 days. 2 days into it we were on SERE (Survival Escape, Resistance & Evasion) maneuvers at night. One student from one unit had an attraction to a girl from another school's unit. (There were some 20-30 different squads, mixed up so we wouldn't be with our own classmates...)

    Being the squad leader, he ordered us to hold fast after the starburts went off and we were close to being discovered. At one point, regular US army troops walked RIGHT OVER us in ankle-deep grass, just like in the movies. We were glad we weren't detected. But, at another point, the squad leader had us maintain location while he went off to bang the girl who was waiting for him. Unlike movies I'd seen.

    That was just one of those "Truth is stranger than fiction" moments. But, now, I can't remember if that was Camp Bullis in Tx, or Fort Ord, but it was 81/82 or 82/83 for me.

    --
    Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
  40. Put 'Em In Stocks by maz2331 · · Score: 1

    I'd say for the first offense, a day in stocks would be appropriate. For the second, hanging, drawing, and quartering.

    You'd see frivolous cases go away in a big hurry.

  41. The Lawyers Win by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    The plaintiff's lawyers are being ordered to pay, not the plaintiff.

    So, roughly speaking, if we figure both sides spent about the same amount of time on the case, the plaintiff's lawyers, every once in a while, have to break even (+/- staff attorneys salaries, but small compared with billed rates). At the same time, the defendant's lawyers did just fine, and one would expect the burden to shift around over time.

    It doesn't look like it pays to get out of this business.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  42. Not an End to Patent Trolls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Due to the specifics of this case, it will not be usable as a broad sword to derail patent trolls.

    It will, however, eviscerate all the lawyer shows on TV; good lawyering is pretty dull to watch unless you're a lawyer.

  43. Socratic Question of the Day... by iamstretchypanda · · Score: 1

    Would an iPoop make an iPlop?

  44. The Crusades? by daecabhir · · Score: 1

    So you're telling me that the number of people killed by Christians during the Crusades is not significant?

    More blood has been shed in the name of forcing one's views on others over the course of history than any plague, famine or natural disaster. Theistic religions are not the only guilty parties in this regard, but their hands are still quite bloody. One reason that "godless" regimes such as the Third Reich and Communist nations such as the USSR and China attempted to eradicate religion was the "undue influence" religion had on the actions of the populace. Conversely, we have the conflict in the Middle East not only between Muslims and Jews, but between various Muslim sects. Never mind the fact that on the one hand people in the US (where I was born and raised, and still reside) who think a religious government in Iraq would be bad but have a President of the United States who is not a devout Christian would be a harbinger of the end of the world. As long as there is intolerance of any kind, or a desire to push one's views as more "right" than someone else's, there will be conflict and there will be bloodshed.

    And under copyright law (which governs things like movies), re-selling a derivative work (such as a clean edit) without explicit permission of the copyright holder is illegal. You have no "right" to purchase any form of a movie than those which are sold by the copyright holder or by someone who has been given explicit permission to sell their particular version of the movie. If you knowingly purchase a movie that has been edited and resold in violation of copyright law because you do not wish to see material that offends you, you are a thief (for abetting someone else's efforts to steal the original copyright holder's IP) and a hypocrite (for rationalizing that theft in the name of your beliefs). That ANYONE would be offended by the raw display of love that is made more urgent by the very real possibility that one might die in the near future to the point that they could not watch that scene, and yet not be offended by the even more graphic representation of death, bloodshed and human suffering that dominates the rest of the movie is positively gut wrenching. It is indicative of a society that has lost all sense of proportion, along with its soul.

    People much wiser than I am said, "I'd rather have my son watch a film with 2 people making love than 2 people trying to kill one another. I, of course, can agree. It is a great sentence. I wish I knew who said it first. - George Carlin

    --

    -- daecabhir (this mind intentionally left blank)
    1. Re:The Crusades? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      So you're telling me that the number of people killed by Christians during the Crusades is not significant?


      No, he isn't. He didn't say that religion makes for a better world, he said that lack of religion doesn't make for a better world.
      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  45. Your philosophy applied to your post by nacturation · · Score: 1

    Here's an example of clean Slashdot post edits. I've removed the morally objectionable content from your post. Of course, you don't mind, right?

    What's so cool about morally objectionable content from movies?

    For example, I like the Matrix trilogy, there is a completely necessary sex scene in the second movie. I force all who would wish to watch the movie to view that scene? Even glimpses requires good timing or a quick back-wind to resume the movie after the scene.

    Many movies are like this. I want to see a movie with what many consider objectionable material, why are movie studios fighting this?

    More to the point, air movies on TV.

    Prohibiting things like this does nothing but reduce movie studios' monetary gains. I, for one, see movies that have objectionable material anyway.

    I'm saying that someone should be able to buy one copy of a DVD and sell dozens or hundreds of burned copies.

    --
    Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    1. Re:Your philosophy applied to your post by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      As I pointed out to Gordonjcp just a moment ago, I do not suggest changing the meaning of movies.

      I do not approve of misquoting people.

      I suggest instead that removing scenes that are both unnecessary and add nothing to the plot is not wrong.

      Reversing the meaning of a sentence is very different from what I suggest is reasonable, and I do not approve.

      I suspect that if I were to misquote you in such a way, you would disapprove.

      Don't be ridiculous.

    2. Re:Your philosophy applied to your post by nacturation · · Score: 1

      As I pointed out to Gordonjcp just a moment ago, I do not suggest changing the meaning of movies. But isn't that the point? To you, it doesn't change the movie in any meaningful way, but to the writer/director it's very meaningful.
      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    3. Re:Your philosophy applied to your post by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      Even if a sex scene with no dialog somehow adds to the plot of a movie, removing it certainly does not *reverse* the meaning of the movie, as people were doing with my post.

    4. Re:Your philosophy applied to your post by nacturation · · Score: 1

      Even if a sex scene with no dialog somehow adds to the plot of a movie, removing it certainly does not *reverse* the meaning of the movie, as people were doing with my post. Agreed, but the absurdity of it was to make a point about being in control of your own creative works.
      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    5. Re:Your philosophy applied to your post by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      Ah, but I do not propose that companies be allowed to edit a movie without permission. That is akin to piracy. Companies like Clean Flicks should be allowed to edit movies, assuming that they have obtained the permission of the movie studios that created those movies; whether that permission was obtained through purchasing a license or some other means is unimportant for the purposes of this discussion.

      If movie studios are willing to let network and cable stations edit their movies for time and content, inserting commercial breaks to earn money, then they should be equally willing to let a company sell copies of those movies edited just for content. Instead of inserting commercials to earn the pay for their work they charge a small fee up-front. It's the same, really, if permission is obtained.

  46. did they patent their poll too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Their implementation of a poll is sheer genius, I do hope they got a patent on that too!

    The great thing about it? It's trivial to vote multiple times, even though you have to be logged in to vote. Just open the frame which contains the poll in a new window, submit the poll and reload, reload reload...

    More blatant fun? Write a few lines of Perl that logs you in and submits the poll, say a few thousand times. For your added convenience they made the vote a GET instead of a POST.

    Remember: it's a feature, not a bug!

  47. Sorry, you've got the wrong party by lpq · · Score: 1

    You can edit the DVD in your home and produce your own copy for your family -- just like you can remix music compilations under Fair Use privileges.

    What isn't ok, is a large mega-corp producing their own "edited" version, where they might change dialogue, (or add dialogue), cut scenes out, etc. The problem is that once you allow that, viewers in a "captive market" (Utah, Blockbuster) are shut out of the rental market because the only video store in town is a BB. Would it be "equally ok" for a state to declare certain scenes as "pornographic", and require the removal of such scenes in order for the movie to be "rented" or "let" out in the state? Local standards are supposedly applicable in deciding obscenity cases. Suppose your "locality" wants to have only "clean" movies? Suppose someone "cleans" your movies for you and you aren't even aware of it (this was happening until it was stopped)? Allowing commercial vendors to vend or rent "cleaned" movies is a bad idea for artistic expression and freedom.

    1. Re:Sorry, you've got the wrong party by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      I didn't say anything about legislating what's clean and what's not - in fact I wouldn't approve of such legislation. I would only support legislation permitting edited movies for those who desire it - and then only if those doing the editing have the proper permission from the movie studio.

      Utah is no more a "captive audience" than anyone else. Its population is less than 50% LDS, last I checked.

      I would not approve of legislating whether movies can contain certain content - just as I do not approve of legislating that they cannot be watched a certain way (i.e. edited).

      I do not approve of businesses improperly profiting off of what are effectively pirated copies of movies. My other posts on this topic have been sufficiently clear on this point.

      It is not a bad idea for artistic expression, however; movie makers are free to make movies however they want. Your post seems to imply that if the editing of movies is permitted, that people in general would prefer the edited version - but if that is so, then why make movies with this content at all, and at least, why force them to view an unedited version if they are to see the movies? And if it is not so, then there would be no problem with permitting a minority of the population to see an edited movie.

    2. Re:Sorry, you've got the wrong party by lpq · · Score: 1

      Anyone who lives somewhere and has a life is "captive" within their town/life/job/family. Don't be naive if you think people can just walk "next door" to another state and rent a video their (unless they live on a border).

      How can you support legislation edited movies for those who desire it without affecting those who do not? Last I checked, laws applied to everyone -- not just those who "want it" and legislatures are all too willing to cast their votes to in order to setup a pre-judgemental framework. Case in point, today's slashdot: "Utah wants to create a rating system for ISP's that filter the way the legislature wants". First you create the rating system, then you make sure all the local schools, libraries and internet cafe's have to use only "G" rated ISP's... Now you've shoved your rating system down other people's throat.

      My post implies nothing about people "in general" preferring the edited version -- only those people who control the guns and the legislature. Since only a fraction of the people vote, you can not claim that even a majority support it -- but at best, a majority, of a minority that believes it is worthwhile vote and that their vote will make a difference. If you live in an oppressive regime, you tend to be skeptical about voting making a difference. Look at how easily the 2000 and 2004 elections were corrupted nationally and you think a state dominated by one religion couldn't do the same with much less fuss?

      What do you mean by you would have no problem with permitting a minority seeing an "edited" movie? Gee, that's awfully open-minded of you. What if they wanted to see the uncensored version? You tell them just to move out of your "state"?

    3. Re:Sorry, you've got the wrong party by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1
      I do not propose legislating that a state only provide edited movies. I would not support such legislation. I do not support the bill proposed by that Utah senator (saying that Utah wants to do it is misleading, since it is simply a senator of Utah that wants to do it); I think it's the parents' job to police their children's internet usage, not the state's and not the ISP's. The ISP's only concern should be getting content to people's homes, regardless of what that content is. If parents want to restrict which parts of the internet are visible to their kids, they can buy any of the various filtering products out there, or they can use any of various DNS services which filter out certain pages (for instance, OpenDNS is capable of this).

      All I've said is that we should not *prohibit* the editing of movies in legislation. The only thing that should be illegal is pirating movies and reselling them, whether or not the pirated movies are edited.

      Editing movies should be permitted, if the company doing the editing has the permission of the movie studio that owns the movie - the same way it works for network and cable stations right now.

      What do you mean by you would have no problem with permitting a minority seeing an "edited" movie? Gee, that's awfully open-minded of you. What if they wanted to see the uncensored version? You tell them just to move out of your "state"? What, Utah isn't a state now? /sarcasm Seriously though, it is open-minded to say "let me watch the movie how I want to watch it, you can watch it however you want", but it is not open-minded to say "either watch it in one particular way or not at all".

      More to the point, I did not at any time propose banning unedited movies in any place, nor did I propose only providing edited movies in any place, nor would I support such legislation. Less than half of Utah is LDS, meaning that more than half of Utah is *not* LDS, which means that there would definitely still be a market in Utah for unedited movies. (I only point this out since you seem to be picking on Utah.)

      What I have proposed is a far cry from forcing people to drive to the next state to buy an unedited movie.
  48. They'd have to show it was the client asked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Otherwise they were guilty in their actions. Even if they can show that the client told them to do this, as members of the court, they should have refused and they themselves were partially or entirely at fault for enacting it.

    I can ask a policeman to ticket someone for no damn reason but if the police officer does it, that isn't my responsibility: the policeman acted incorrectly.

    Same here.

  49. You don't block ads... right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > I don't care whether you find the sex scene objectionable or not. Copyright law does not have an exception to the "derivative works" clause that allows for such modifications.

    So, do you use an ad blocker? How is that different, except that you hate their religion and think they're evil for blocking T&A? You know that the technology didn't make actual copies, it just skipped certain bits, right? Not unlike a DVR that removes commercials?

    Or do you believe that content producers have a right to an audience? If so, wait while I make a program to recite as much of pi as is possible before the computer it's running on dies.

    Don't you DARE skip a digit...