DHS Allowed To Take Laptops Indefinitely

andy1307 writes with a Washington Post story giving details of Department of Homeland Security policies for border searches of laptops and other electronic devices (as well as papers). (We have been discussing border searches for a while now.) DHS says such procedures have long been in place but were "disclosed last month because of public interest in the matter," according to the article. Here is a link to the policy (PDF, 5 pages). "Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed. Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption, or other reasons, according to the policies, dated July 16 and issued by two DHS agencies, US Customs and Border Protection and US Immigration and Customs Enforcement... DHS officials said that the newly disclosed policies — which apply to anyone entering the country, including US citizens — are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism... The policies cover 'any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form,' including hard drives, flash drives, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover 'all papers and other written documentation,' including books, pamphlets and 'written materials commonly referred to as "pocket trash..."'"

Comments

Degradation of rights for nothing

[infalliable]

Worst part is despite the searches and seizures, they accomplish very little. You inconvenience and step all over the rights of average, law-abiding citizens to give the impression of safety.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[rasmack]

Well, from TFA and the summary, yes. It applies to any electronic device able to store data. If you have devised a sneaky way of encrypting information into the phone book of your cell phone then they are allowed to detain it "for a reasonable period of time".

Better find a new way to remember those passphrases and PIN codes...

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[iminplaya]

You inconvenience and step all over the rights of average, law-abiding citizens to give the impression of safety.

Well...Chaaa! What are you getting at? Look who's on the ballot. Listen what they talk about on the TV. Think anybody gives a damn? Okay, so play their silly game and don't take anything of value across the border. You think I wear my Rolex when I go to get some rock on 63rd and Halsted? Like the corrupt cop, get a throwaway.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[Lumpy]

Which is why you NEVER take that stuff past the government sanctioned thugs and criminals we have at the airports.

Ship your laptop via UPS or Fedex to your destination, it's a lot cheaper to spend $125.00US to ship it next day air international than to replace it all when you get there because some DHS scumbag takes a shining to your laptop or wants to punish you because you dared question them.

Honest citizens need to act like international spies.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[ByOhTek]

Very little is an overstatement of how much they accomplish.

The policies cover 'any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form,' including hard drives, flash drives, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover 'all papers and other written documentation,' including books, pamphlets and 'written materials commonly referred to as "pocket trash..."'"

We first, of all, that covers ANYTHING. If you can write on it, it can store digital and analog data. I know two friends of mine often use semi-long term markers on their palms because they are so forgetful, does that mean the Department of Homeland Security can take their hands? That regulation is WAY to broad.

That being said, as another user pointed out. If you want to transmit illicit information out of country, there are plenty of ways to get it out without carrying with you. I'm not one to bypass rules and security, but it didn't take me two seconds to figure out how to deal with that, without even trying.

Honestly, if they did catch anyone with this methodology, they would be smart release that person, and pretend not to have found anything, to keep their idiocy and corruption in the enemy genepool. It would be a darwinian favor to their opponents to keep the guy/gal. Also the guy/gal could (would?) inadvertantly lead them to a more productive cull from the enemies genepool. I'm speaking in gemerics with 'enemy' mostly because it's more than just the catch-phrase of terrorist they are searching for, I'm sure.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[Exanon]

A few other problems: I was going to go to this years DEFCON but because of the laptop checks and the registration requirement (notifying the government 3 weeks before coming to the country) I have canceled the trip. (No, I really don't have anything I am secretive about on my laptop).

My story can be seen as a pitiful example. But I heard rumors from former colleagues at a company I used to work for that they have changed their security measures on corporate laptops when traveling to the US.
It includes taking the laptop down to the IT department and having them make an image of the HDD, then it is replaced by a new one, the image is downloaded when on US soil. Probably through VPN or similar.

The question that raises is the same that was raised in Sweden over the FRA-legislation: The possiblity of industrial espionage. So when both private and corporate trips might be canceled or postponed, doesn't that hurt the US economy?

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[Lumpy]

It depends, are they planning on making big trouble for moose and squirrel?

Then you ship it inside a dead beaver to a Canadian taxidermist undercover spy in Minnesota. From there he places it inside a stuffed bear that is shipped to the hotel you will be staying, late at night you recover the laptop from the stuffed bear when nobody is looking.

If you need the number of the taxidermist, let me know... 15 inch and smaller laptops please, he cant find beavers large enough to ship 17 inch laptops anymore.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[Shakrai]

he cant find beavers large enough to ship 17 inch laptops anymore

Yeah I hate when I can't find a beaver large enough to contain something that's 17 inches in size ;)

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[JavaBear]

Somehow this doesn't make me feel any safer, quite the opposite actually.

I don't know who I fear the most, Al-Queda, or the US government, It's pretty much a toss-up at the moment, and I'm not so sure that the needle won't end on the latter.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[Shakrai]

I don't know who I fear the most, Al-Queda, or the US government

That's easy. Al-Queda can't take away your freedom. All they can take away is your life. The US Government can do both.....

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[Dog-Cow]

If you travel to and from the US, you are far, far more likely to be harmed in some way by the US Government.

I am far more afraid of the US Government than any other entity. And I just walked through the Moslem quarter of the Old City as an Orthodox Jew the other week.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[NoobHunter]

*Cue the Empire Theme from Star Wars....*

It's a sad state of afairs. They say that if you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it. How many Major Powers in the history of Humanity died because their government thought they knew what was better for the people, even if it goes COMPLETELY against what people truly want.
Rome, China, Russia, France and now the US is following in the footsteps.

It's no longer IF the US will have a Bastille Day / Civil War pt. 2 but WHEN and WHAT will trigger it. I only hope that the reppercussions world-wide don't drag us into another Dark Ages...

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, in the long run Al-Qaida wants to install the sharia, which would take away a lot of freedom

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[TheGratefulNet]

when you can't give REAL safety, you give a fake form of it.

we have been calling this 'security theater'.

the government FULLY KNOWS THIS. their immoral fuckwads but they aren't idiots.

everyone up and down the food chain with anything over 100 as an iq knows that its 'all for show'. ALL OF IT.

empty gestures impress little old ladies. little old ladies vote. the system self-continues.

QED

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[Shakrai]

Well, in the long run Al-Qaida wants to install the sharia [wikipedia.org], which would take away a lot of freedom

When Al-Qaida has the wherewithal to invade and conquer the United States I'll start to worry about their long term plans. We aren't talking about a powerful nation-state here. We are talking about a bunch of bandits living in caves. I'm not real worried about them pouring across the border and conquering our country.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[digitig]

Sir, you are welcome to inspect my laptop, but I am afraid there is no information in it.
At all.

"In fact, sir, your laptop plainly shows the maker's name, the model number, a serial number, and the letters A through Z on this bit just below the screen. That is plainly information, and it correlates with intelligence I received from "What PC" magazine that this is a highly desirable model, so I will be confiscating it indefinitely."

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[Hatta]

There's really very little reason to fear Al-Qaeda at all. You're more likely to die crossing the street, or taking a shower. Maybe that burger you ate last night will be the one to push your cholesterol over the edge. To any rational person, terrorism in the US is simply not on the radar.

The government on the other hand is right here, we interact with it every day. It's closer, and vastly more powerful than any terrorist. It does pose a real threat, and you should be afraid.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[Dunkirk]

Have you not heard about the UK, where a judge has upheld the notion that a Muslim family dispute ought to be covered by Sharia, in addition to the normal UK legal system? Whether they do it by force or by subterfuge, "invading" is their goal, and they're already doing it. See also the publicly funded Muslim-based elementary schools in Detroit. Or how about the special exceptions made at an American university for school-funded foot baths for the Muslim facility? I ought to go all Wikipedia and cite my references, but if you've not heard about these things, then you're not paying attention.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[kalirion]

That's easy. Al-Queda can't take away your freedom.

Tell that to those they've kidnapped.

But I agree, the chances of terrorism negatively impacting your life are infinitesimal compared to the chances of the government doing the same.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[xalorous]

You can transfer any amount of data you want, over the 'net. The only "terrorists" this is going to catch are very stupid ones. The rest of the people caught by this will be the 'child porn' loving business guy, and the teenager rebelling by studying the Koran. Primarily what you will see will be profiling.

Bottom line, this is search and seizure with no probable cause.

Customs Deputy Commissioner Jayson P. Ahern said the efforts "do not infringe on Americans' privacy."

Bullshit

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff wrote in an opinion piece published last month in USA Today that "the most dangerous contraband is often contained in laptop computers or other electronic devices." Searches have uncovered "violent jihadist materials" as well as images of child pornography, he wrote.

Uh Huh.

I propose a test. We can start in Europe. Give me a terabyte of data. I will carry no electronics on the flight into the states. Within days back in the U.S. I will produce the terabyte of data.

My point is that with the ability to transfer data over the 'net, trying to prevent 'sneakernet' type information transfers, while worthwhile, are not worth trashing all the laws and standards for search and seizure.

If my electronic device functions as it should, you have no probable cause to be looking at what I have inside. This worries me very much.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[fredrated]

"the UK, where a judge has upheld the notion that a Muslim family dispute ought to be covered by Sharia"

You say it right there in your post, it was the UK judge that granted this, it was not taken by force by the Muslims. This is exactly what the poster is saying, al Qaida did not seize this, it was given up by us.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[cliffski]

No it accomplishes a lot. It decimates USAs international tourism. Nobody I know has flown to holiday in the USA since 9/11. Your security bullshit makes the trip unenjoyable.
Meanwhile Canadian hotel companies are doing well.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[TubeSteak]

Ship your laptop via UPS or Fedex to your destination, it's a lot cheaper to spend $125.00US to ship it next day air international than to replace it all when you get there because some DHS scumbag takes a shining to your laptop or wants to punish you because you dared question them.

You realize that Customs can rip open your package and do whatever they want with your laptop?

The only reason there are low odds of that happening is because customs is wildly understaffed compared to TSA. You're running a numbers game, but don't for a second think that international mail is any safer than hand carrying.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[Shakrai]

Have you not heard about the UK, where a judge has upheld the notion that a Muslim family dispute ought to be covered by Sharia, in addition to the normal UK legal system?

How is that any different from the Jewish Beth din courts that have operated in New York City (and other parts of the US?) for decades and done much the same thing? I really don't see a problem with this as long as these "courts" don't have the rule of law and as long as nobody can be compelled against their will to resolve a dispute in them.

Whether they do it by force or by subterfuge, "invading" is their goal, and they're already doing it

You sound like someone warning of the yellow peril in the early 20th century. Somehow I doubt that most Muslims have the goal of "invading" the Western World. Europe has their own problems with Muslim immigration that they will need to contend with but I seriously question the notion that it's anything more sinister than people looking for work.

See also the publicly funded Muslim-based elementary schools in Detroit

Citation? I don't have an issue with Muslim-based schools (how many Catholic-based schools exist in this country?) but I would take issue with public funds going to them.

Or how about the special exceptions made at an American university for school-funded foot baths for the Muslim facility?

How is that any different from an employer that gives Jewish employees a day off for Yum Kippur or arranges for alternative meals for Hindu staff when the cafeteria is serving beef?

I'm sorry but I just don't buy this alarmist argument. We've heard the exact same things said about every single culture that has ever immigrated into this country -- even "white" ones like the Irish or Polish. Somehow none of them have ever managed to subvert the United States. I'm not real worried about the Muslims doing so either. To listen to your post one would think that there is some sort of master plan that all Muslims are aware of to sneak into the West and subvert us from the inside out.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[DaveyJJ]

Don't you find it a tad hypocritical to be chastising a judge for allowing Islamic tenets to be used to settle disputes, and yet your sig quotes another mythology/religious text which is just as silly? I do. If you claim Islam and/or all of the other 4,200 recognized religions in the world is not a valid process of thinking, please make sure to add yours to the pile to. But then again ... Rational arguments don't tend to have an impact on religious people. If they did, there wouldn't be any religious people, would there?

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[Lemmy Caution]

Have you not heard about the UK, where a judge has upheld the notion that a Muslim family dispute ought to be covered by Sharia, in addition to the normal UK legal system? Whether they do it by force or by subterfuge, "invading" is their goal, and they're already doing it. See also the publicly funded Muslim-based elementary schools in Detroit. Or how about the special exceptions made at an American university for school-funded foot baths for the Muslim facility? I ought to go all Wikipedia and cite my references, but if you've not heard about these things, then you're not paying attention.

There is well-established precedent for allowing religious courts in the UK to act as arbitrators in family matters, by mutual consent of all parties. This is not about Islam taking over, and it is hysterical xenophobia to think it is.

When we hear the word "Sharia," we jump to images of beatings and stonings, but it is, in fact, a very broad term which applies to the framework for jurisprudence derived from Islamic principles. The kind of Sharia which is allowed to arbitrate over certain matters in the UK is as far removed from stonings as a church picnic is from the Spanish Inquisition.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[Jason Levine]

There's really very little reason to fear Al-Qaeda at all. You're more likely to die crossing the street, or taking a shower. Maybe that burger you ate last night will be the one to push your cholesterol over the edge. To any rational person, terrorism in the US is simply not on the radar.

I highly agree. Al-Qaeda has killed about 3,000 people on US soil in the past 10 years. That's an average of 300 people a year. Doing some Google research, I found that 300 people a year nationwide die of flight-related blood clots. ( http://www.aviation-health.com/news/browse.php?action=shownews&category=&id=23&topicid=258 ) So you have an equal chance of being killed by a terrorist or by sitting too much on a plane. Yet we don't see a "War on Airplane Blood Clots" complete with mandatory cholesterol screening at airports and confiscation of cheeseburgers by airport security.

Car accidents kill over 42,800 people a year. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_accident#Trends_in_collision_statistics ) That's more than one 9-11 per month every year. Do we have a "War on Car Accidents" complete with mandatory breathalyzer testing required every time anyone starts their car and the ability to confiscate a person's car if an officer thinks that the person is being even the slightest bit reckless? Of course not!

Right after 9-11 happened, we had a good reason to be fearful of terrorists above anything else. We were attacked and didn't know the whole story. We didn't know if there would be more attacks and if so who would be next. The only reason people are fearful of terrorists today is because the government has found it to be a useful tool to expand their powers. If the government wants to do something that it knows people will object to, it just cries "Terrorism!" (or "Child Porn!") and it finds the path to additional power smoothed out. Sure, there are still people who oppose them, but it's a lot easier to attack them ("Why do you love the terrorists/child pornographers?") and distract everyone from the real issue of ever expanding government powers and ever shrinking citizen's rights.

Re:Degradation of rights for nothing

[mrogers]

You're running a numbers game, but don't for a second think that international mail is any safer than hand carrying.

So you encrypt the contents of your hard drive with a one-time pad, carry the hard drive across the border and mail yourself the one-time pad. They can intercept both parts, but only way they can decrypt it is inter-agency cooperation, and the odds of that happening are less than 1 in 2^256. Better than AES!

Books? Any written materials?

[thodi]

This is crazy, people. Make sure you're not wearing any clothing with text on it, you might have to enter the USA naked.

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

They also cover 'all papers and other written documentation,'
How the hell does this not violate the "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..." part of the 4th amendment, where is the SCOTUS case that ruled that US citizens upon returning to the US borders do not enjoy the protections of the constitution?

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[Devir]

you're better off just crossing the borders naked. It leaves "fewer" avenues for them to search and speeds up the lines.

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[CrazedWalrus]

You have to be *in* the US for your rights to be in effect. Once you're at border security, you're not in the US anymore, so your rights don't apply. At least that's the argument, however dubious.

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[Ihlosi]

you're better off just crossing the borders naked.

"That's a nice tattoo you got there, sir, but what does it say ? We better send it over to the NSA for decryption. Now step over here, this will hurt only a little ..."

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[Bartab]

unreasonable searches and seizures

Searches at the border are legally reasonable. This has been held for a very very long time.

Since everybody loves Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to be *in* the US for your rights to be in effect.

No, remarkably, the 4th amendment says that the government cannot seize your papers. Is this the government? Check. Are these your papers? Check.

Let me know when you find the part of the amendment that says "except outside of the US".

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[Bartab]

That is NOT the argument, primarily because border crossings occur on this side of the border.

To quote the fourth circuit court: The border search doctrine is justified by the longstanding right of the sovereign to protect itself.

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[Firehed]

The Constitution went to hell in a handbasket quite some time ago.

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[Firehed]

That "Fire!" example comes up all the freaking time. Has it ever been tested? At least pre-9/11, I think the worst that would get you is a punch in the face for being a douche bag.

Though by all means, feel free to correct me.

Having said that, the first amendment was created to ensure that US citizens could question and challenge the government, not to ruin movies.

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[jwiegley]

Read past posts regarding the fourth amendment...

First, A court (the judicial branch of the United States) has defined these searches to be reasonable. Thus the fourth amendment doesn't apply.

Second, while rights are inalienable (another person cannot remove your rights) they are waivable (you can willingly give up your own rights.) you agreed to the search. There are signs all over the place at border entry indicating that all persons entering are subject to search and seizure. You may opt out of entering and therefore search and maintain your right (though in this case it doesn't apply because as I pointed out, the search is reasonable) but as soon as you enter you have agreed to be searched. Thus you have waived your fourth ammendment right.

summary: You're screwed for two reasons. The search is reasonable and you agreed to be searched. I'm tired of hearing this argument come up on /. every month because somebody was inconvenienced and had their fantasy of a "right to privacy" challenged. This is a cut and dry situation. It would lose 0-9 if ever seen by the supreme court.

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been said on /. a million times before: that argument is fallacious.

The United States Constitution isn't a charter of what rights the populace can and can't have, it's a set of rules for what the United States Government can and can't do. Questions of jurisdiction, territory or creed are inapplicable.

If the government directly, or by proxy, cause anything contrary to those rules to come into effect, then they are in violation of the constitution.

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[SpiderClan]

Taking everyone's laptop is the common good? I suppose if it keeps the bastards from downloading music.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The place to be searched: All airports and borders

The persons: Everybody!

The things to be seized: Everything!

Probable cause: They have stuff. I want it.

See? No violations at all. They have a warrant.

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[silentcoder]

Actually it HAS been tested in court, more specifically it came FROM court.
It was an example used by the SCOTUS in a landmark trial in the late 1890's which led to the first ever reductions in absolute free speach in the US.

I don't know the full details of the trial but there is a movie about it if you really want to find out. I do know that a landmark quote from the judgement (that endangering others would not be protected by the 1st) was "no possible reading of the first amendment could protect a person who shouts fire in a crowded theater-house."

Hence I stick to yelling theater in crowded firehouses.

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[Ihlosi]

So tell me, how the heck do I cross the goddamned US border without agreeing to this madness?

The same way all the other illegal immigrants do it.

Re:Books? Any written materials?

[kaaona]

The last time I checked it was the PEOPLE who were sovereign, not the Gestapo.

The worst part

[dreamchaser]

What is even worse is that if you try to use encryption to maintain a level of privacy and security, that will just mean they'll keep it longer while they try to crack it.

Re:The worst part

[Takumi2501]

Steganography anyone?

Re:The worst part

[link-error]

    Strong encryption with internet storage is the only way to go now I'm afraid.

Re:The worst part

[MoonBuggy]

The privacy violations are ridiculous, but at least we know about them and can take steps to avoid them - businesses providing 'clean' laptops and accessing data remotely over an encrypted connection, for instance. I don't for a second condone them looking through our data, but the fact is it's happening and that means we have to do our best to negate the effects.

The fact that they can basically steal your laptop, phone and any other nice electronics you happen to carry, on the other hand, could potentially be rather costly. I'm not even sure how likely an insurance company is to pay out for a claim of "it was confiscated and held indefinitely by the US government".

Re:The worst part

[the4thdimension]

I find long keys to protect funny files are best. For instance, the key:
"Hithisisagoodpasswordforprotectingmyfilezyoubetterkn0wthepassword"

To protect a single text file which reads:
"Waste of time"

Re:The worst part

[dodecalogue]

Why? What do you have to hide? HMMMMMM? red flag! red flag!

Re:The worst part

[tinkerghost]

I'm not even sure how likely an insurance company is to pay out for a claim of "it was confiscated and held indefinitely by the US government".

They won't pay at all. All theft/loss policies have clauses regarding seizure by the government.

Re:The worst part

[Deth_Master]

Bruce Schneier's essay on Security: The value of privacy

Re:The worst part

[fbjon]

No, it's far less than that, actually. This page says 109 bits of entropy, which sounds about right. More variation and larger character space would be better.

Re:The worst part

[Shakrai]

Even better, fill large files with random data tagged as an ecrypted file

Eh you can get more creative than that. Download a few thousand pictures of puppies and kittens off the internet and encrypt them all ;)

Re:The worst part

[Chris Mattern]

And the Homeland Security officer says, "Who cares about your keys? Look at the neat notebook computer I just got!"

Re:The worst part

[digitig]

You still don't get your laptop, PDA, eBook reader or mobile phone back.

Re:The worst part

[PReDiToR]

I just visited the US, went to Vegas for two weeks and in the middle of that had 4 days in San Fran via domestic flight.
Took two brand new Asus EEEPCs, one for me, one for my partner. All they had on them were my SSH keys and a copy of NX so that we could log in to my computer back home and transfer our journals and pictures there rather than risk losing them to this kind of "appropriation".

We went through security at Manchester without a hitch. When we went through Mccarran to go to San Fran we got put in the TSA lane and got the explosives sniffer machine done to us:
TSA: Lift your arms and stand still.
(Air jets attempt to dislodge particles from our hair and clothes, then vacuum them into the sensors)
TSA: Put your boots, belts, hand luggage in here, laptops in this tray.
My laptops went through and the agent doing the security actually said "oh, those small Asus's"
To which I replied, "yeah, very handy for travel, got them specially for the trip over here".
Got them back, didn't even have to turn them on, my USB keys weren't searched, my SD cards likewise. My camera wasn't opened, the memory card wasn't inspected.

I went to America with the expectation of having my goods and chattels molested by TSA, but aside from my GF's surgical implant setting the metal detectors off three times, we sailed through TSA three times.

I'm not saying that TSA shouldn't have these powers, but even when you tell them that you're carrying spent pistol/rifle casings, they don't always give you a hard time. My clothes were covered in GSR, I had spent casings, two laptops, numerous memory cards, cellphones and a big knife (in checked luggage), nothing was out of the ordinary. My checked luggage wasn't even opened, I had a UV reactive cable tie on it, so it would have been cut had they searched the bags with the knife and casings in.

Given these powers exist, and as an alien travelling through the TSA "interested" lane, I can say that they don't always use them. I would imagine that they are like any other police officer: Give them a hard time and they will make your life hard, because they can. Treat them like they are doing a necessary job and help them if at all possible and they will appreciate your "cooperation" and not waste your time and theirs.

YMMV.

Re:The worst part

[Russ Nelson]

MMV. My Chordite keyboard caused a neckless pinhead screener to react, shutting down security in Burlington VT and causing me and others to miss my flights. I was completely cooperative even though they're doing an unnecessary job (passengers will kill anybody attempting a hijack, and if the sole goal is to kill, there are many softer targets, e.g. any state fair).

Re:The worst part

[xalorous]

You didn't read the article.

"For a reasonable time" implies that the equipment is returned if you're found innocent.

Re:The worst part

[FictionPimp]

To them I am sure it is reasonable to keep it until they have access to your data. So if you encrypt it, and do not give the key, they are probably going to hold you in jail until you do, and if not then they are going to hold the notebook until they can crack it (aka, you never get it back)

Re:The worst part

[revoltop]

Basically bend over and take it is what your saying . . . Yeah that's not very American. Some have mentioned the 4th amendment and I always wonder how the government can get people to simply give up all there private information without having to come into your house. It's called federal intrusion taxes or simply income taxes.

Re:The worst part

[PReDiToR]

I like your tone, does that get you a long way in life?
Come over here sir, we just need to check your bags.

No, I was relating my own experiences with the TSA as a /. reader who was fully aware of how shitty the experience could be.
I'm saying that being helpful and smiling and not criticising the process *while you're in it* can get you through it a lot faster, and with less pain. Your tone would suggest that you're one of these people that have a permanent look of disdain on their face over the whole thing, rather than a "How can I help, officer?" look that will have them happy to wave you through because you're not making their lives hard.

Re:The worst part

[TubeSteak]

I'm not saying that TSA shouldn't have these powers, but even when you tell them that you're carrying spent pistol/rifle casings, they don't always give you a hard time.

Ummm... when I remove those first two negatives, your statement reads "I'm [removed] saying that TSA should [removed] have these powers".

I would imagine that they are like any other police officer: Give them a hard time and they will make your life hard, because they can. Treat them like they are doing a necessary job and help them if at all possible and they will appreciate your "cooperation" and not waste your time and theirs.

YMMV.

Your commentary basically boils down to 'keep your head down and cooperate, then hope things go well'.

And honestly, that's retarded. I understand that, as an alien, you don't want to make waves, but as I citizen, I firmly believe that the way they're going about things is complete and utter bullshit. We can argue about whether the measures the TSA is taking are good or bad, but IMO, there's really no discussion that the way they're going about it is completely unreasonable.

Given these powers exist, and as an alien travelling through the TSA "interested" lane, I can say that they don't always use them.

Would you really be writing such a nice post if the GSR had caused you to get pulled into a side room to cool your heels for several hours while they run your name through [computer system] and then question you while your connecting flight takes off? What if they had turned you around and put you back on the next flight to wherever you came from?

Those powers exist, and as an alien traveling through the TSA "interested" lane, I can say that they sometimes use them on people like you.

Try watching 30 Days Season 1 Episode 3 (S01E03). His trip through the airport is +1 Interesting.

Re:The worst part

[flitty]

This might be a clue...

Reasonable measures must be taken to protect business information and attorney-client privileged material, the policies say, but there is no specific mention of the handling of personal data such as medical and financial records.

Sounds like I just found my next company to start...
"Proprietary Wal-Mart Information" stickers for sale to put on your laptop! Very Official Looking. Keep your private data safe! Also available, A Tiny "Wal-Mart" branded OS that launches when your key sequence is not entered at startup that confuses TSA agents and lets you keep your laptop! Dummy files contain fake proprietary information. Included is instructions to deal with agents and how to protect your "business information".

I'm heartbroken that policies explicitly cover "business information" without mentioning personal financial information, But i'm not really surprised at this point.

Re:The worst part

[digitig]

Who decides what is "reasonable"? The equipment is returned when the investigation is "complete", but I saw nothing in the article saying how long they could take over that investigation. And if you try to sue for return of your property, what could you offer as evidence that the time they are taking is unreasonable, if they claim that more time is still needed (particularly as there's no requirement even of suspicion)?

Re:The worst part

[Hoi Polloi]

You shouldn't even have to resort to countermeasures in the first place. It is like saying "I guess I'll wear a face fask to protect myself from being sucker punched by the TSA." You're accepting an unacceptable situtation. The only acceptable response to this policy (aka abuse) is to ban it legally and remove its supporters from the government. Unreasonable search and seizure shouldn't even be allowed now anyway.

Re:The worst part

[bjorniac]

No one is found innocent. They are supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. The only findings are guilty and not guilty. Sure, it may sound like semantics but it's pretty important as a distinction - you don't have to prove your innocence.

Re:The worst part

[SpicyLemon]

Amendment IV -
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

We all know, though, that the government has a very strange way of interpreting the constitution sometimes. They'll use some argument along the lines of, "Well, since we're not getting a warrent, the 4th amendment doesn't apply."

Re:The worst part

[Teilo]

I agree that that sucks, but, dude, that keyboard does look like a bomb. I mean, home-made - stretchy looking material with embedded electrical contacts - battery - circuit board - no case or shell. I have a feeling you would have had the same problem before there was a TSA.

Re:The worst part

[kencurry]

problems with your logic:

1. Don't you think your avg. terr'st would have some training, and fein co-operation vs. act like a pissed off asshole? And don't you think DHS knows this and would then disregard the attitude of the person in question?

2. You miss the larger picture, which is that we taxpayers in the US (facing an '08 deficit of 500 billion USD) are not simply annoyed at the process, we are annoyed that our tax dollars pay for such poorly thought out and even more poorly executed acts of our federal government.

Re:The worst part

[PReDiToR]

I agree with your assessment of my post.

I was fully expecting to be pulled into a side room to cool my heels. I asked my travel desk to check with TSA that I was OK to fly with the materials I had on me for just that reason. I kept receipts for the shooting sessions to prove that on two occasions I had been in a room full of people using explosives. I didn't put the clothes that I was wearing, nor the casings into my luggage until after I had a reasonable expectation of passing security.

My experience with officialdom (police, security, borders, etc) is exactly as you describe. Keep your head down, be less of a perceived threat than the next guy and hope for the best. If you don't do that you might as well not put yourself in their hands to start with and avoid all border crossings.

I agree also that this procedure is unreasonable. The detention of people who refuse to hand over encryption keys, the retention of electronics, the whole Visa programme that takes weeks to complete and can significantly delay your vacation/trip. As another two posters (at least) have said, how is anyone supposed to look forward to travelling to the US for either business or pleasure with these measures hanging over them?
As a fairly well informed traveller I took precautions against loss, but what of those people who are blind to these perils? I had on my person the flight details, passport images, dates and times of stays, the wedding booking and arrangements of all 5 people that were travelling to the US for the same reason I was. I bent over so far that most of it was totally unnecessary. But I was prepared for the worst. If I had turned up with this laptop, rather than the other one, I would have links in the history to posts like this which would have made my life very hard. The word "PReDiToR" did not accompany me to the US. I left my political leanings and opinions outside the airports so they didn't cause me trouble in there.

Once you waive your rights by entering the secured area, you cannot behave the same way as you would if you were holding a placard outside the airport terminal.

Had I the time, patience, good credit history, clean social and criminal history, anal leeway and balls I could have made a scene and asked WTF they thought they were doing molesting me, but what would be the point?
Hours of doing their jobs, to me personally, wouldn't take away their right (under law) to do it. It wouldn't hit the news, it wouldn't raise public awareness, it wouldn't make it all go away because I was standing up to them, it wouldn't have made them think twice about what they were doing, either to their citizens or their economy.

Basically, yeah. Bend over and take it, you agreed to it by entering their secured area. Retarded or not, the secured area isn't the place to make that stand.

Re:The worst part

[jafiwam]

"Cordite is a family of smokeless propellants developed and produced in the United Kingdom from 1889 to replace gunpowder as a military propellant."

^^ not to mention the brand name shares a name with a low explosive often found in artillery shells.

Re:The worst part

[jdschulteis]

No offense to your chord keyboard (it's actually rather interesting), but just add some 7-segment LEDs counting down and it would match the pop culture conception of a bomb very well. The name "Chordite" does not help in this respect.

Re:The worst part

[Maxo-Texas]

You realize what this means of course.... extremely courteous and polite terrorists.

Re:The worst part

[geobeck]

...you don't have to prove your innocence.

You must be new to Amerika.

Re:The worst part

[petgiraffe]

1. Don't you think your avg. terr'st would have some training, and fein co-operation vs. act like a pissed off asshole?

Maybe.

And don't you think DHS knows this and would then disregard the attitude of the person in question?

Are you kidding? There are very few people left in the world, even among TSA employees themselves, who think TSA is there for any reason other than theatrics. They know they're just there for show and they behave just like any other person who spends 8 hours a day doing a completely meaningless job: They're nice to people who are nice to them and they're dicks to people who aren't.

If you want to have an easy time getting through screening just walk up with a smile on your face. Say, "Hello!" and act as though seeing the TSA agent has been the high-point of your day. If you can perfect this technique you'll not only enjoy less hassle at airports, but better service in restaurants, hotels, bars, retail stores, and well, pretty much everywhere you have to deal with other people.

Re:The worst part

[pleappleappleap]

Then all a terrorist would have to do is to make life easier for the screeners. This is garbage. All of it.

Re:The worst part

[moxley]

SO wait...Now we have to "be found innocent?"

Isn't that the opposite of how things are supposed to work in this country?

Re:The worst part

[Shakrai]

You'll be thrown in jail as soon as they see encrypted files

Do you have an example of anyone who has ever been "thrown into jail" in the United States merely for having possession of encrypted files or are you just fear-mongering?

Re:The worst part

[Mix Master Nixon]

Or, you know, they could just blow up an airport security checkpoint and kill a bunch of people that way. TSA has made it super easy for the bad guys.

Re:The worst part

[backslash_forward]

If your goal is to generate a lawsuit, like Mr. Hellar, then go ahead and be an ass - just be aware that you're going to suffer pain for your goal.

And that is how they win -- if they haven't already. What is it, specifically, about standing up for ones rights that makes him/her an ass? Perception is a very powerful tool. If people perceive tyranny the norm then it makes the tyrants jobs a whole lot easier.

Re:The worst part

[Shakrai]

Even if you're not convicted of anything it still shows up on background checks done by employers as an arrest.

As someone who was once charged with a crime he didn't commit I can tell you from experience that my state (NYS) seals all records of the arrest upon your acquittal or the dropping/dismissal of the charges against you.

In my case it was a felony charge that went to Grand Jury. The Grand Jury refused to indict (thank god for the jury system...) so the DA had to drop the charges. Awhile later I received a court order directing the appropriate law enforcement agencies to seal all records of the arrest and destroy any copies of my fingerprints and/or photograph that they obtained from said arrest. The order also directed any agencies that may have received a copy of said items from the original police agency (i.e: the Feds) to do the same.

As I recall the only exception allowed for in the dismissal order to unseal the arrest record related to the requirement that you disclose any arrests when applying for a NYS pistol permit. It made no exceptions for any agency to retain a copy of the fingerprints/photograph. They had to be destroyed.

Why it doesn't work like this in other states is beyond me. A simple arrest should not show up in a background check without a subsequent conviction or at least an ongoing trial.

Re:The worst part

[penguinbrat]

Give them a hard time and they will make your life hard, because they can.

That is the one over all major problem, and the only one really, that have with all this - regardless of whether or not something f'd up happens. Seriously, what is the over all difference between street thugs and the government anymore - you need to kiss both over their respective asses, the former to come out alive and the later to come out with the same life style (IE: confiscating someones cell phone and/or laptop could have a serious impact on anyones life anymore these days, whether it is social, business or financial).

There actually used to be valid reasoning behind being innocent before proven guilty rather than guilty before proven not-guilty, and it's all on them whim of how you treat the respective agent? Come on...

Re:The worst part

[hanwen]

You don't get it. The TSA is supposed to keep terrorists from boarding the plane. This article is about the custom officials who are trying to keep "terrorist information" out of the US.

To experience this, you need to enter the US from a different country, and look sufficiently suspicious.

Re:The worst part

[Hoi Polloi]

The day he took the job he did.

Re:The worst part

[memorycardfull]

Dear Sir, Those who politely sacrifice liberty for security especially deserve neither. Cheers!

Re:The worst part

[number11]

a court order directing the appropriate law enforcement agencies to seal all records of the arrest and destroy any copies of my fingerprints and/or photograph that they obtained from said arrest. The order also directed any agencies that may have received a copy of said items from the original police agency (i.e: the Feds) to do the same.

And how do you suppose the court ensures that everyone that has had access to that data receives a copy of the order? How does the court know if it has been obeyed? (Of course, the court will be pissed if it finds out, but the agency will claim that it was a clerical error, and no one will be punished.) And how in the world does a state court enforce an order like that against DHS, even making the unlikely assumption that it can ever find out the order has been violated?

The answer, of course, is "it doesn't".

Re:The worst part

[Firethorn]

Maybe I shouldn't have used the words 'be an ass' and said 'assert what you believe to be your rights'.

Generally speaking, I'd prefer our constitutional court cases to be carefully selected to not have any factors to make the decision to restrict our freedoms easy. So you pick, as best as you can, a white knight type - both willing to fight and clean enough that he won't be easy to smear into irrelevance.

Right now, I'm protesting the TSA in the forms of letters to politicians and boycotting flying as much as practicle. I'm not independently wealthy to fight something like this in the court system.

Re:The worst part

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir, would be an ideal citizen in any dictatorship.

Re:The worst part

[Gregour]

They had to be destroyed.

Because well know no government official would ever ignore a court order.

Re:The worst part

[davester666]

Don't forget, you could have written things in invisible ink on your clothes, so they'll have to also keep all of them as well.

So, you get to come out of customs with absolutely nothing [as there COULD be some writing on anything]. And you'll have to be exposed to massive doses of x-rays just to check if you've swallowed anything.

And yet, all the "terrorists" have to do is go to a BestBuy and purchase a new laptop, or even just go to a public Internet terminal and download whatever information they need via any number of protocols, with no problem at all, in a manner that should be virtually untraceable as to who sent or received the information.

So, more inconvenience with zero benefit [at least, no benefits for the stated purpose, which is to hinder terrorism somehow].

Now, this is an ideal program for economic espionage by the US government, as they basically state that all your information will be put up on a server and made available to pretty much any gov't agency to access if they want. And it will be less likely that all businessmen will take the time to protect their information that all but the most stupid terrorists would...

Wow

[BluRBD!E]

I feel bad for all the Americans who value their privacy. Unfortunately this has been the case in Australia for a while now. I remember the story of a Journalist/Author (I think) who was sent a copy of a book that contained a lot of classified information. The Australian police (unsure of division) went to her house, took her computer and smashed it in front of her. Lovely world we live in. I feel bad for our children.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't pity us. This is for coming into the country. Pity you foreigners who have to come here on business (I assume you're no longer interested in pleasure travel here)

Their law versus ours

[fudgefactor7]

Just because their little law says they can do it doesn't mean it doesn't run afoul of the Contitutional protections. Were this to be challenged, it would be killed pretty quickly: one cannot instigate such as this in the name of "terrorism" and not expect at least one challenge on "unreasonable search and seizure." You cannot fight global terrorism by turning the USA into a police-state. All that accomplishes is angering the populace....and you remember the last time Americans became angry with their government?...

Re:Their law versus ours

[Oh no, it's Dixie]

I agree that this runs directly counter to the Constitution. Two problems with trying to assert your Constitutional rights through the courts, though: would you be able to find a court that wouldn't immediately dismiss it, and could you build a good enough case if all your evidence is stolen from you by the government?

Re:Their law versus ours

[Erie Ed]

I bet over 2/3 of americans either a. don't know that this is going on or b. don't care. Even if people actually gave a damn we tend to not take any action.

Re:Their law versus ours

[Anonymous Coward]

and you remember the last time Americans became angry with their government?...

They were beaten with clubs, battons and shot with riot rounds?

 

Re:Their law versus ours

[niiler]

One would think that this goes against unreasonable search and seizure. The problem is that if you object to it, you need to have your device seized to have standing to bring it to trial. Then you need beaucoup bucks in order to see it through. If you consider the motivations that led to the unreasonable search and seizure protections vis-a-vis one's home, it seems that some of them may have been to protect one's personal papers and property. This rule is a blatant end-run around such Constitutional protections in letter and spirit. Because almost everyone now carries a large part of their life with them via cell-phone, laptop, or PDA, I would argue that taking such items is akin to the sort of disruption (financially and otherwise) that people would experience from home invasion by authorities. In many ways this can be even worse.

Re:Their law versus ours

[nomadic]

The Supreme Court's already said that at the border the border patrol can search whatever they want, without any requirement of reasonable suspicion. Hopefully the SCOTUS changes it mind and puts in at least some reasonable suspicion requirement (or at least the minimal "articulable suspicion" test they made for Terry v. Ohio), but at the moment its legal under current caselaw.

Re:Their law versus ours

[soast]

The problem is the government has brainwashed the people. They want you to fear them by intimidating you with time in prison or financially. Most people think in the way 'if i goto prison i will lose my job and cant get another because i have a blemish on my record' that reason alone will stop 99% of the people for standing up to it. The other reason is who has the resources to fight it, rich people do but rich people have no worries.

Re:Their law versus ours

[Bartab]

No, it does not. There HAS to be probable cause first

This is the hippy dippy part. The "probable cause" is "guy trying to cross the border". You are by definition able to be searched along with your possessions when attempting to cross the border. This is nothing new either.

Only an actual strip search requires reasonable suspicion, and such suspicion is of a lower requirement than in other areas.

Both the fourth and ninth has responded on this issue, recently and including searches of electronics equipment. Both found in favor of the gov't.

Re:Their law versus ours

[korbin_dallas]

"You cannot fight global terrorism by turning the USA into a police-state."
No actually you hand the terrorists a "WIN" on a silver platter...terrorist goal accomplished.

"All that accomplishes is angering the populace....and you remember the last time Americans became angry with their government?..."

Not sure, I don't remember anyone getting angry but me. The Civil War, the War of Independance?
Anyway, its far too gone for a revolution, the majority are sucking at the federal teat...theres no way they are going to anger that sow. Actually, the poor are going to be forced to attack the middle class just to eat and get gasoline.

Re:Their law versus ours

[a_resnikoff]

Only a miniscle percentage of US Citizens even have passports. That vocal minority won't be enough to effect changes in DHS policy.

Re:Their law versus ours

[RodgerDodger]

This isn't search, it's seizure; the right to search doesn't allow the border guards to take your property away from you to conduct the search.

Sorry for the Godwin Violation

[mlwmohawk]

But...

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have to at least consider that it is a bird of the family anatidae (apologies to Douglas Adams)

This is outrageous! and a 4th amendment violation.

Hitler may have lost WWII, but the forces of fascism and totalitarianism are still fighting the war and are winning.

Re:Sorry for the Godwin Violation

[SirShmoopie]

This will pretty much kill conferences from organisations with members outside of the US, especially ones where proprietary information is carried around.

Not to mention damage international business.
Seriously, what on earth is going on ? Are these people divorced from reality?

Re:Sorry for the Godwin Violation

[Shakrai]

The constitution doesn't apply until you get past the customs officer. And even then only to US citizens.

Do you have a citation for the Constitution not applying to non-Americans on American soil or are you just talking out of your ass?

Re:Sorry for the Godwin Violation

[Anonymous Coward]

I know there are already companies which forbid employees to travel with their laptop to the U.S.

Meetings? They'll hold them in Europe instead.

Great way to hurt the economy even further!

I'm now recommend to my company not to travel to the U.S. anymore. Sorry guys n gals, but it ain't worth it. You're welcome on our side though!

Re:Sorry for the Godwin Violation

[frodo from middle ea]

Does the constitution apply to even US citizens any more ? I am not so sure.

Re:Sorry for the Godwin Violation

[techiemikey]

So, if your in Canada, Canada's laws should protect you, right?

Re:Sorry for the Godwin Violation

[VdG]

The USA has been off my list of desirable destinations for a while now. I'm not seriously worried that something dreadful would happen to me, but I am opposed in principle to some of the stuff I'd have to go through - fingerprinting for example - and wouldn't look forward to the hassle of it all. It took long enough last time I visited the USA, before 9/11; I'm not going to volunteer to subject myself to that if there's a more convenient alternative. Just as easy and pleasant to visit Canada, New Zealand or umpteen other places, if it's merely for a holiday.

Ah, Penny Arcade predicted this.

[WDot]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2007/20070125.jpg

I thought it was funny the first time I read it, it's scary that it may be more true now. )=

Everything to protect human rights

[Swizec]

Right America? RIGHT?!

And you attack dictatorships to spread freedom ... *eyeroll*

DHS IT

[MrKaos]

BOFH from DHS : I have an excellent way to reduce our IT spending...

I can only think of two words

[LoadWB]

Normally I would put together a verbose, and perhaps even eloquent, response to such information. But I can only think of two words.

Bull shit.

We are losing, people. We are losing our rights and there will be more to come. That our own personal property can be seized "to fight terrorism" on the terms presented is absolute, unadulterated, pure and uncut bull shit.

Re:I can only think of two words

[Jaysyn]

Well, they've found a way to expand & mutate the "War on Drugs" mentality to cover everyone. Not so fun when it affects you, is it?

Re:I can only think of two words

[Ralph Spoilsport]

Well, you're being nice. The two words that popped into my mind were:

FASCIST PIGFUCKERS.

Run while you can. If you think Obama's gonna make it all better, you're nuts. The whole imperial mess is rolling into a death spiral. Run while you can.

RS

Re:I can only think of two words

[Jesus_666]

Run while you can.

In other words: Vote with your feet. While Europe and Canada certainly aren't free form this kind of bullshit, the USA proudly take the lead (and a pretty big one at that). If the conditions inside the USA are becoming unbearable, emigrate to a more friendly country. If enough of you do it you might form a noticable minority in your new country and get enough media attention to discourage local politicians from playing the control state card as well.

If you consider leaving, now is a good time. Yes, the rest of the world is expensive because the Dollar is on its way to becoming toy money. That makes your leave an especially strong statement: "I'll start with much less money in my new country but I don't care as long as I get out of here."

Just about the only thing that'd make most of the people consider something being amiss would be an emigration wave of people who are vocal about why they leave and who'd gladly choose a lower standard of living (if only temporary) over being subject to DHS and the like.

Simple

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't give them any thing if you are citizen.

When the try to take it from you, you are gonna have a fourth amendment field day with those asshats.

Absolutely reasonable...

[Slashidiot]

DHS officials said that the newly disclosed policies -- which apply to anyone entering the country, including US citizens -- are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism...

My god. I can understand that they think those policies are necessary, but nobody can believe that is reasonable.

"We can take everything you own and keep it as long as we want. Only if we feel like it. We think this is a reasonable exchange, you get to enter the country, we get to steal your stuff"

Kleptocracy, anyone ?

[Ihlosi]

"Yeah, you'll get your stuff back in, uh, fourty years. Sorry, rules are rules. And only if it doesn't get lost or misplaced until then."

And when are they going to start confiscating pacemakers and hearing aids ? Last I've heard, these things can also store information in digital form.

Land of the Free

[Yeti.SSM]

"Welcome to the Land of the Free. We're now going to free you of your laptop, cellphone, ..."

Toilet paper...

[jrister]

Its nice that government agencies regard the Constitution as toilet paper.

What they fail to realize is that all their power originates with that document, and in a way, it's like a contract between the government and the people. Since the government has decided to violate the terms (breach of contract), then maybe we should stop recognizing their authority, since they have chosen to invalidate that document that is the sole source of that authority?

Re:Toilet paper...

[HungryHobo]

Then you end up with a lot of uniformed men busting down your door.
In theory government authority comes from the people.
In practice the authority comes from having a lot of big men with guns who do what they tell them.

Re:Toilet paper...

[jrister]

The US Civil war was about a lot of things. One of the things it was about was whether or not an independent society within the USA has the right to peaceably secede. Good luck with your plan.

Its not any "plan". It's just an observation/musing. Anarchy isn't the way to go, but certainly the course we're on isn't either.

There are ways to fix things without rash actions like secession and violence. Unfortunately, it takes an informed and intelligent populace (that we lack, IMO) to speak together with one voice, that it wont accept government actions that violate it's basic freedoms. Problem is we have a populace that will agree with anything as long as you include the words "protect" and "children" or "terrorism". They could care less about the how or why, as long as they feel they can continue to watch Survivor and make fools of themselves on MySpace , they think its all copacetic.

If we want change, we have to make a real effort to educate the people around us, open their eyes to the truth of whats happening. Maybe find a way to put things into perspective for them (may involve starting MySpace/Facebook groups, or the like). Until the bulk of our population gives a damn, it won't improve.

I'd rather have freedom than "security"

[Shinary]

You know, as an American I can say that I would gladly give up my "right" to security for this crap to just go away. Let the people protect themselves from the invisible enemy and force the government to focus on problems that really matter. Like the country's growing illiteracy rate, or the growing rate of obesity, or hey... how about the economy going to shit. Oh I forgot, we need those fat and stupid people working for the DHS at airports and other "high security" areas. They need jobs too. Homeland Security was just another huge mistake by the Bush administration that I hope will be corrected at some point in the near future. I love my country and all, but if the United States keeps following down this road, I am gone.

Re:I'd rather have freedom than "security"

[CastrTroy]

I think illiteracy is mostly the governments fault, because they are in control of education. The economy also has a lot to do with the government. But how is obesity a problem of the government? I realize there's a connection with corn subsidies, and large amounts of HFCS in food, but you don't have to buy that stuff. I think the problem with obesity and being out of shape falls solely on the individual. There's plenty of healthy food out there, and it's not overly expensive that most people can't afford it.

Distressing quote from the article

[honkycat]

Customs Deputy Commissioner Jayson P. Ahern said the efforts "do not infringe on Americans' privacy." In a statement submitted to Feingold for a June hearing on the issue, he noted that the executive branch has long had "plenary authority to conduct routine searches and seizures at the border without probable cause or a warrant" to prevent drugs and other contraband from entering the country.

Perhaps it's just a poor characterization of his statements, but it appears that Mr. Ahern just doesn't get it. Regardless of what authority the executive branch has had, he needs a pretty damn strong argument as to why these efforts don't infringe on "Americans'" privacy. I can't think of any reasonable argument that they do not. Whether it's a *justified* infringement is a somewhat subtler question, but these powers are certainly subject to abuse. Further, even the obscenely few restrictions on preserving the data after the investigation is completed are little consolation in the face of the many stories of data mishandling by government entities. Mr. Ahern desperately needs to get a clue.

Further, even as an American I take exception to the idea that it's only relevant for our government to protect "Americans'" privacy, as is implied by this quote. Again, it might be due to incomplete quoting, but I somehow doubt that. As a scientist who frequently works with international collaborators, it's really true that communities outside the U.S. are deciding to keep their business out of this country due to the ridiculous policies for entering. It's often just not worth the effort. Way to go, Executive Branch!!

Re:Distressing quote from the article

[miffo.swe]

I would also assume that any private scientist who works on something would stay away from the US. Since they readily share any information with "their" own corps you can bet that any big breakthrough will "leak" to your biggest competitors in the US before you can say patent.

Constitutional?

[uberdave]

I thought that you had the right to be secure in your papers and personal effects. Fourth ammendment, google tells me. I hope this raises a big enough stink to become an election issue. The DHS needs to be reigned in something fierce.

Re:Constitutional?

[mitgib]

The DHS needs to be reigned in something fierce.

No, the DHS needs to be dissolved as it should have never been created.

Analog form?

[MMC Monster]

That includes BRAINS!

Any device capable of storing information...

[Valtor]

The policies cover 'any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form

My brain is a device that can record patterns in an analog form. If they want it, they'll have to get it over my dead body ;-)

Re:Someone should do this

[Loibisch]

Instant access to Guantanamo v2 :D

Industrial Espionage...

[TomRK1089]

What if your laptop contains trade secrets or the like? Wouldn't that constitute industrial espionage to decrypt said information? What if a DHS employee has a relative who competes in that field? I can only imagine the potential messes there.

Re:Industrial Espionage...

[Ihlosi]

What if your laptop contains trade secrets or the like?

Too bad.

Wouldn't that constitute industrial espionage to decrypt said information?

It's only illegal if you're not the government.

What if a DHS employee has a relative who competes in that field?

Good for him !

I can only imagine the potential messes there.

You misspelled "opportunities".

Re:Industrial Espionage...

[Erik]

A coworker and I were discussing this at work the other day actually. If I have trade secrets on my laptop, would I be running afoul of Safe Harbor and possibly shareholder interests if I give them my encryption key?

It may be that the SEC is the best avenue to challenge this. We just didn't think that starting a shareholder lawsuit against our company would be helpful to our employment status...

Re:Industrial Espionage...

[Splab]

Actually this probably wont go over too well with the WTO, when they confiscate some company secret data and it later surfaces in some US company...

Re:Industrial Espionage...

[AusIV]

I've wondered about doctors and lawyers, who have federal laws that prohibit them from disclosing data about their clients. It appears that as soon as they try to cross the border with a laptop containing this information, the government only gives them the option of which law to break.

When the government puts people in a position where there is no way to avoid breaking the law, we have a serious problem.

Re:Industrial Espionage...

[colmore]

Now you're talking! Corporations might still have some rights as citizens in this society. Your company has been buying its fair share of campaigns for our glorious leaders, correct?

Think of the children!

[Anonymous Coward]

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff wrote in an opinion piece published last month in USA Today that "Searches have uncovered violent jihadist materials as well as images of child pornography."
Ah, the magic words!

I reckon you could even implement gun control in the US, if you reported that peados were using guns!

Anonymous Coward.

[Anonymous Coward]

These policies are playing into the hand of terrorists, they want to disrupt your economy, and that's what DHS are doing.

If America is so paranoid about this why don't they just close their borders to everyone.

Re:Anonymous Coward.

[Jesus_666]

Yup. The terrorists have already won. It's not yet clear to which extent, but they certainly did have their way with the USA. The economy is badly damaged and will not recover as fast as before as people are becoming wary of doing business with American companies, especially when that involves sending reps over. Tourism has probably taken a hit as well; I certainly don't want to be treated like a criminal when vacationing. Much of the rest of the world agrees that the USA have become a bunch of paranoid dickheads and America's own intellectual elite is wondering whether the government is still legitimate.

Let's face it, three and a half airplanes were enough to kick the USA from "#1 Superpower and Most Important Country in the World" to "uncomfortably well-armed paranoid hegemony in decline". The terrorists have won and it's unsettling to see how much indirect damage they've done so far.

Hypocritical Policy

[Lord Byron II]

FTA: "When a review is completed and no probable cause exists to keep the information, any copies of the data must be destroyed." If there is no probable cause in the first place, then how can they collect the information in the first place?

A little more context...

[Notquitecajun]

The US government - and just about any government - has always retained the right to inspect anything entering its borders - citizenship notwithstanding. This is NOTHING new. It simply applies to laptops, now. It hasn't been a privacy issue for 200+ years, and NOW we're concerned about it.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just trying to provide a little context. If you're going to complain about it, at least acknowledge a little bit of history here.

Re:A little more context...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does the old 'inspect' come with a silent 'and keep forever'?

Re:A little more context...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not privacy, but the permanent seizure of private property that's the biggest issue here. US government has the right to inspect your property coming into the country, but they don't have the right to seize it unless there is evidence of some violation of the law. Seizing your private property without due process is a constitutional violation.

Fuckin' authoritarian apologists, why don't you emigrate to Saudi Arabia, North Korea, or some other shithole totalitarian country if you wanna be a subjugated twit.

Re:A little more context...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is NOTHING new.

When did property theft become a part of it?

Re:A little more context...

[Lilith's Heart-shape]

I'll be crossing it one last time -- and I won't be coming back. America has fucked itself, and I'm going to make like Atlas and shrug.

As if anyone would move data on a laptop...

[rasmack]

I cannot think of a single example where I would want to move sensitive data on a laptop. I may live in a sheltered world but in that world we live in the era of the Internet. If for some reason I wanted to transfer sensitive data across any border, I would think ssh would provide superior security.

Actually I can in a few minutes push quite a lot of encrypted data to four different countries. If I were physically where I wanted the data it would be even easier.

I guess this is just another example of reductions in privacy that solve no problems what so ever...

Obtain laptops cheap!

[Jason Levine]

Sounds like a good way for DHS officials to get laptops, iPods, etc real cheap.

Step 1: Find someone with a laptop, iPod, etc that you'd like to have.
Step 2: Take it in the name of National Security.
Step 3: Item "gets lost" and you have a new gadget.

This is especially useful during the holidays. DHS officials can shop on the job. "Hey Frank, didn't you say your kid wanted one of those new iPods? Well look at this guy walking up now."

I wonder what, if any, protections are in place to keep this from being abused. (Any more than giving someone the power to confiscate any item of yours for little to no reason and keep it indefinitely is an abuse of power from the start.)

Back in Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

Back in Europe when strikingly similar measures were in place we used to call the implementers ``fucking Nazis``, then ``fucking Communists`` and we would often risk our life to escape and be able to live at the land of freedom, in the USA.
Then we thought the Nazis were gone and then the Communists lost too... But have they?
   

Violent jihadists materials

[andy1307]

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff wrote in an opinion piece published last month in USA Today that "the most dangerous contraband is often contained in laptop computers or other electronic devices." Searches have uncovered "violent jihadist materials" as well as images of child pornography, he wrote.

Isn't violent jihadists material more likely to be transmitted over the internets?

Re:Violent jihadists materials

[johannesg]

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff wrote in an opinion piece published last month in USA Today that "the most dangerous contraband is often contained in laptop computers or other electronic devices." Searches have uncovered "violent jihadist materials" as well as images of child pornography, he wrote.

But that's excellent news! The most dangerous contraband in your country is not drugs, firearms, poisons, nuclear materials, deadly diseases, or anything of the kind - it is just words!

If you think about it, that happens to be absolutely true. The most dangerous thing out there today is "ideas". If you are an out of control fascist government, that is...

HR6702

[Oh no, it's Dixie]

H.R.6702: To impose requirements with regard to border searches of digital electronic devices and digital storage media, and for other purposes.

Although the text hasn't been sent to the Library of Congress, HR6702 seems to be the kind of bill that would limit the power of the DHS to conduct unreasonable searches. Read the text of the bill in a few days when it becomes available, and write to your representative, etc etc. It's a shame it only has one co-sponsor.

yes, except

[Reality Master 201]

The fact that this kind of rule may be unconstitutional means exactly nothing unless you can convince the judicial branch to rule it so, the executive branch to respect that ruling, and the legislative branch to bitchslap the executive if/when it refuses to behave.

There's at least two items in the list that I won't be holding my breath for.

Organized Protests

[Ratbert42]

What we really need is a new Linux distro that's just Rickrolls, goatse and 2 Girls One Cup. "Wait, officer! Don't forget these DVDs here."

This is why

[Sir_Real]

I carry a 500gb passport of random useless data and encrypt it.

That should keep someone busy for a few weeks.

Re:Just like airline searches and wire taps

[Anonymous Coward]

and when they come for you, who will speak out? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

Re:Terrorism, Thy Name Is...

[Lumpy]

What happened to needing "probable cause" as a justification for a search?

Dick Cheney stabbed it to death with a letter opener and then as it was trying to draw it's last breath he took a razor to it's throat slicing it deep, then pulled it's tongue through the cut as a message to the other rights and justifications.

Last I heard, Dick was standing in the national archives with a jug of white out screaming, " SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND!"

It's about putting power in... their hands

[YA_Python_dev]

Worst part is despite the searches and seizures, they accomplish very little. You inconvenience and step all over the rights of average, law-abiding citizens to give the impression of safety.

It's not for nothing. They are not stupid, there's a very good reason for this: power. Information is power, and if they know about your data (it doesn't matter if it's something legal or not), they have power over you.

The end of innocence

[hcdejong]

In the past, I haven't thought twice about taking electronics (laptop, mp3-player, palmtop) abroad. These regulations mean you basically can't count on crossing the border into the US with any of those, and would have to treat them as disposable. Instead of approaching Customs confident I've nothing to hide and won't be hassled beyond a cursory inspection, I'd have to have a backup plan for any data I want to use while in the US.

One more reason not to travel to the US, I suppose.

DId the former USSR do this? China? Vietnam?

[jotaeleemeese]

Vietnam didn't. I travelled there several times with my laptop and never had any issues.

Can somebody give me a good reason why I should not continue my personal boycott against travel to the US?

I would have to leave all my gadgetry behind at home. Absolutely appalling. It is not the fact that a seizure can happen, but that nonchalantly the authorities have the power to keep your stuff for as long as they please. Nice way to nick an iPod.

I used to go to old U.S. of A. once a year, spending a reasonable amount of money each time (hotel, plain tickets, etc.) and a few times I took stop overs in the US in my way home when visiting my family, for which uncle Sam surely derived some money as well.

I know nobody cares, but more and more people are *actively* avoiding the US when travelling.

I went to Canada instead earlier this year, and the difference could have not been starker: I was granted a visa on arrival (I am Mexican, no bloody way that would ever happen in the US, even if I was coming from Europe, as I normally do), the people are friendly and although are losing soldiers to the Taliban more than what would be reasonable to expect, they are not idiotically paranoid.

USians: when are you going to recover the essence of the goodness that your country promised when it was founded?

Re:DId the former USSR do this? China? Vietnam?

[TheGratefulNet]

I know nobody cares, but more and more people are *actively* avoiding the US when travelling.

fuck that - I'm a US citizen and I am actively avoiding LEAVING my country.

for fear of the hassle factor of leaving, entering some other place (also, soon to 'enjoy' surveilance wishes upon its visitors) and then re-entering and having to 'plain myself, lucy' again and again to the marching morans.

I have not taken a plane trip in years. I've been asked by my company to fly (in the US) for business and I have politely refused. they didn't push and they might have understood that no one is excited about flying anymore.

the airlines suffer, hotels suffer, goodwill and understanding between countries suffers.

I won't fly to the UK even though I've been there well over 10 times before. I used to love it. now I fear the thought of what the UK does to its visitors.

things are bad all over. travel is now on my ban list unless its ABSOLUTEY needed. and 95% of the trips really are NOT needed!

Re:Terrorism, Thy Name Is...

[HungryHobo]

Which is fine until you you get someone inspecting your bags who's in a bad mood and you look a little like the guy his wife just ran off with. then he gets to fuck you up badly without breaking the law in any way.

If you want an idea of what authority does to people read "The Lucifer Effect"
All they did was give one group the title "guards" and the other "prisioners" and within days they were animals. They didn't give any actual authority only titles.

now the question is, what would have happened if they'd called one group "guards" and the other group "citizens/suspects"

State industrial espionage in a grand scale?

[miffo.swe]

"Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption, or other reasons"

Thats the wording that got me. This means the US can take any foreign businessmans computer and turn its contents over to his most fierce competitor without mentioning it and without any wrongdoing being done by the business he represents.

Is it just me or doesnt this kind of makes it pretty risky to do business in the US? Any information the US intelligence gets their hand on can be used in business related areas, now without even a suspicion of any wrongdoings but just because they can.

This sure wont help the US economy thats for sure. If its one thing that can tank an economy its holding stale/inefficient/non innovative business up by artificial means until the bubble bursts.

Not going back again

[adamqaisar]

This is going to put me off visiting the US for a long time now. The last time I flew out, I was detained for almost 3 hours by DHS - and then did sh*t all, just kept me in a room and didn't ask a single question, only to then be told it was a matter of "national security" why I got detained and that I had to apply to have that reason given to me. 2 years later, I'm still waiting.

Freakin' morons. I wouldn't trust them with some play-doh let alone my laptop and phone.

Look foreign?
Prepare to have your life sent back to the 1800's while the US government sifts through all your electronics to make sure you're not some America-bashing foreigner.

Re:Someone should do this

[chuckymonkey]

Kinda like what happened to me in the Army. They decided that they wanted to scan all of our personal laptops for porn and classified files and such so they made this little program that used keyword and metadata searches to see if you had anything. Well, I didn't particularly care for this and being who I am I took a picture of myself flipping off the camera and titled it wonderful things such as Fuck Me Hard, or Take it in the Butt you Whore, or some classified product names. Then I scattered 30,000 copies all over my hard drive, they thought that they had found the jackpot in me until they saw what it was. They also have to look at every file just in case, let me tell you they were not happy about this at all, however there was little they could do about it. Needless to say they never tried that bullshit with me again. What's really fun too is that I had all my porn on a hidden encrypted volume. DHS however may just keep your laptop forever and maybe charge you with obstruction of justice or something stupid like that.

Why is this tagged "republicans"?

[PeeAitchPee]

Last time I checked, we have a Democrat-controlled Senate and Congress. Surely Reid and Pelosi wouldn't let such a thing happen on their watch . . .

I don't know why you people are bitching

[elrous0]

It's not like there's some LAW that protects your personal effects against unreasonable searches and seizures or anything. Geez what are you guys, a bunch of terrorist-lovers?

Re:I don't know why you people are bitching

[Russ Nelson]

From their perspective, all searches are reasonable. WE'RE AT WAR AGAINST A TACTIC, you know.

They will only get data of lawful people

[rcastro0]

Because there are 10,000 ways of sending confidential, encrypted data across national borders using little known tools such as... the internet!

Not to mention thumb-drives that are becoming pinky-drives.
Not to mention relatively strong and free data encryption.

My greatest gripe with this kind of decision, though, is not its inefficiency -- but rather, the precedent it opens. Coincidentally, my homepage yesterday had the following "thought of the day":

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."
  - HL Mencken

Think about that.

Answer: border search exception to the 4th

[halivar]

It's called the "border search exception" to the 4th amendment, and it has always been in place.

Quoth the Wikipedia:

The United States Customs and Border Protection (CBP), a division of the United States Department of Homeland Security, is permitted to search travelers and their belongings at the American border without probable cause or a warrant. These searches are therefore exempted from the Fourth Amendment warrant requirement.

And according to the Yale Law Journal (Apr. 1968):

Customs officials conducting border searches have always been exempt from the usual fourth amendment requirement that searches be based on probable cause.

Since the border search statute was enacted in 1789, customs officials have been authorized to stop and examine any vehicle, person, or baggage arriving in the United States on suspicion that merchandise is concealed which is subject to duty or which cannot be legally imported into the United States.

Your Mother's Basement is Next...

[nettamere]

Unfortunately, there is a direct correlation between the sentiment that the Government should take care of everything and trying to find where to draw the line. Most Americans are in favor of safety and security if it only impedes "the other guy". Most are willing to give up their rights because they feel that the chance of it impacting them is very low- so why not error on the side of caution and just give in?

I still contend that this is a simple case of an inch equaling a mile. Now they can take your electronics/personal effects and keep them as long as they want. The next reasonable step is to search your house and take your computers from your mother's basement to investigate as long as they want. After all, what is really the difference here?

Oh- it's only for those people coming into the country! How long do you think it will be before they expand it to include anyone regardless of their activity? Doesn't it make (government) sense that if people flying into the country are possibly transporting harmful data- people in the general population are as well?

We step closer to 1984 inch by inch- mile by mile.

They could require everyone to submit all backups of all data to a government clearinghouse in the name of "national security" and you would be surprised at how many people would willingly support it- because people will do anything in the name of safety.

I doubt that it makes us safer- but it does make us more like sheep.

Re:Terrorism, Thy Name Is...

[dkleinsc]

You left out the part where Dick shot it in the face.

unconstitutional!

[lophophore]

Hmmm.

This little tidbit seems to explicitly prohibit this:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Of course, the current administration seems to like to use the Constitution for toilet paper, anyway.

But I would expect a challenge to this ruling on the basis that it violates the spirit and the letter of the 4th amendment.

it says

[unity100]

Since the border search statute was enacted in 1789, customs officials have been authorized to stop and examine any vehicle, person, or baggage arriving in the United States on suspicion that merchandise is concealed which is subject to duty or which cannot be legally imported into the United States.

stop, and examine and ON suspicion. not confiscate WITHOUT suspicion.

Isn't payment due?

[oldsaint]

The fifth amendment to the constitution provides that government taking of property, including temporary taking, requires fair market compensation to the owner. The routine examination for explosives at an airport security check would not require payment, but an extended taking of an electronic device, without individual suspicion, should require a payment of fair market rental value.

Inspect yes

[phorm]

This isn't about inspection. If some DHS guy wants to give my laptop the once-over, well enough. If he wants to take away for an "indefinite" time, hell no!

My impression is that

[Simon (S2)]

America is more and more becoming like China. I hope I am wrong, but since September 11 all the news I read is pointing towards it.
My 2c. Good luck Americans.

So if they can keep the equipment, can we ...

[Rastl]

If they're allowed to take valuable and necessary equipment for no particular reason can we invoice the US Government for a daily fee to cover the cost of rental replacement of the equipment in question?

"Oh, you want to take that notebook? Well it's going to cost you $150 per day. Sign this invoice and I'll turn it over."

Yeah, that's going to happen.

And how much of this stuff is going to get 'lost' while in government custody? Will there be weekly reports on the status and exact location so that the true owner can track and potentially retrieve their investment once the government is done ham-fistedly pounding the keys?

Send letters to your Congresscritters!

And speaking of Congresscritters, does this apply to them as well? Will they have the prospect of having their personal equipment confiscated and searched? If not, then neither should we.

Terrorists:1 Reasonable People:0

[mubes]

I find all of this very frustrating. Not because I have anything in particular to protect (indeed, I can think of very little that is that important that I would object to a reasonable law enforcement official taking a look at it), but because of whats happened to us in just under seven years.

The agenda of the terrorist is -not- particularly to kill people, it's to get their agenda into the front of your mind and to encourage you to bend to their point of view in order to stop the pain. Now, it so happens that killing people does that quite well, but just how many times in the past seven years were -you- affected directly by a terrorist, and how many times were you affected by the window-shopping measures put in place to "protect us from terrorism"? Every time we lose another liberty, the terrorists get another point....not to mention the number of very dubious practices that we accept now in our day to day lives because they allegedly make us safer.

I'm tired of this. Security and protection of the populace is done in back rooms with a low profile, not by folks with machine guns stomping around in airports for PR purposes while punters shuffle, barefoot and half naked, through some electronic gizmo that is then monitored by a human being with a statistically proven error rate in the order of 5% while wondering if they're going to be allowed to keep their own property when they get to the other end.

I feel a dammed sight safer flying through a European aiport than any US one, that's for sure although europeans are starting to succumb to the 'visible security' mantra now....I saw a great case of this yesterday - one lane in three through security at the airport had an electronic explosives sniffer, the other two had conventional scanners....trouble is, you get to chose which queue you join!!!

We seem to have lost the understanding that you don't have to knacker peoples rights to have a good level of protection. We need to stop helping people with abhorrent agendas keeping them in the front of our minds, and the best way to do that is to stop eroding hard earned freedoms in the name of terrorism protection.

Something like this happened to me

[silentcoder]

Though I am in South Africa, not America.
I was dating a girl in Brazil (I married her later) and my company had several major projects in Nigeria. So I had regular flights to both countries (and both are common drug routes around here). Add to this long hair and a liking for heavy-metal t-shirts - I ended up on a watch list (nobody would confirm this but it became pretty obvious).

On my way out to see my girlfriend one time, I was searched on the plane (which they made late to do it) but my luggage was already in the hold and my hand luggage clean so they couldn't really finish the search.
When I came back, I was arrested on site. My bags were searched and I had to explain almost every item. Not the easiest of those was a bottle of home-made spirit-vinegar I bought in a small country town in Brazil as a gift for my mother. Finally, convinced my luggage was clean (now I am already two hours late, my cellphone isn't charged and I cannot even contact my ride who is waiting outside the door for me) they decide I need to be X-rayed in case I swallowed condoms.

So I wait. I finally convince the cop to at least let me talk to the person who is picking me up (my boss) - with him coming along, so three hours later my boss gets to find out why I didn't show (lucky for me - he was still there). We wait for another 2 hours. Meantime I am missing a major business deadline (which would end up costing me a small fortune) but me and my boss are talking shop about the various projects.
Still the police who are supposed to take me to the state hospital for X-rays haven't shown up. Finally the border-cop (who has been hearing us talk all this time) says: "I'm gonna let you go - I'm sure you're clean now but we have to be sure and if I keep you any longer I'm going to start running risk of false arrest complaints."
As he uncuffs me and I walk away I asked him: "So will you take my name OFF your watchlist now ?"
Him: "Who said your name was on a watchlist ?"
Me: "You picked me up at passport control by my name and face. You tried to search me on the way out as well. You kept me here for almost 5 hours while all the random screen cases were gone in 30 minutes, despite the fact that I was the only one who wasn't complaining and shouting at you for the annoyance and understood you are just doing your job. I know my regular flights include two well known drug routes over a three year period... you didn't have to SAY I'm on a watchlist - it's obvious."

He didn't say anything. I dropped it after that, didn't feel like more hassle but I must tell you it was one of the most annoying experiences of my life.

And the worst thing: planes always upset my stomach. I have no idea if this is because of the airline food or the airpressure but it does. Getting of that plane, the first thing I wanted to do was go to the little boys room for a little private meditation. I wasn't allowed to go to the loo (in case I flushed the evidence of swallowed drugs) - and I had to hold it in for five painful hours. I must tell you - many times during that wasted day I was tempted to just let it go, and leave them the mess to clean up.

Sealed Letter-class mail is exempt

[davide marney]

Officers may not read or permit others to read correspondence contained in sealed letter class mail (the international equivalent of First Class) without an appropriate search warrant or consent. Only articles in the postal system are deemed "mail." Letters carried by individuals or private carriers such as DHL, UPS, or Federal Express, for example, are not considered to be mail, even if they are stamped, and thus are subject to a border search as provided in this policy.

IANAL. Does this mean I could seal a flashdrive in a letter-class envelope, put a US Mail stamp on it, and they would need a court order to unseal it?

In any case, it's an interesting clause in the regulations. Why is sealed mail treated with a higher standard of privacy than other forms of communication? Historical reasons only?

Re:Sealed Letter-class mail is exempt

[zotz]

"IANAL. Does this mean I could seal a flashdrive in a letter-class envelope, put a US Mail stamp on it, and they would need a court order to unseal it?"

It said it actually had to be in the mail... Didn't it?

If you do try to mail something like that in a letter class envelope, it might get sen't back as not suitable for mailing...

I had a fun experience with this little problem a long time ago.

I was in Melbourne, Fla and before leaving to come home to the Bahamas, I dropped a gift in a mailbox for someone also in town. (It has a piece of a small tree in the envelope. Under a quarter inch thick and less than two inches in diameter most likely.

Months later (I guess) it shows up in my mail in the Bahamas with a stamp on it that it is unsuitable for mailing. The markings show it went over to Orlando for the first sorting so I am goessing letters mailed in Melbourne at the time for delivery also to Melbourne first were shipped to orlando for sorting and then shipped back ot Melbourne for delivery.

in any case, something that was unsuitable for mailing could not make it down the street but somehow could make it over the sea to another country... by mail...

all the best,

drew

ACTA anyone?

[plasmacutter]

Why does this policy reek of MAFIAA influence?

the mention of "or analogue" pretty much clinches it to me.

whether through bits on flash or through punch chards, computer readable data has always been digital, represented discretely (analogue is analogue because it is not measured discretely)

it's obvious they're referring to MAFIAA 'media' here, I don't see any other reasonable interpretation of that statement.

We now know where the idea of border search and seizure of ipods and laptops came from in ACTA. It's already here.

They won't care....

[Roskolnikov]

Laptops and drives still fit in diplomatic pouches and are not subject to steerage class searches, I've come to the conclusion that all of my data should be network accessible and my laptop is very nearly a 'fresh' build when travelling; my employers rules are very specific, I am not to share/reveal/disclose, I am responsible for keeping the drive encrypted and I am subject to termination if I reveal the decryption mechanism/keys to unauthorized individuals. Strangely enough these rules are all at the insistance of the same government now doing these searches..... Papers please indeed.

Also very odd, if I place the data on a drive and ship it in advance both ways its subject to customs but not DHS; customs can play the same tricks (somewhat) but you are more likely not to encounter some 4.25 an hour disgruntled lets have some fun with the guy with the laptop by taking his precious away if you ship your gear separately.

I'm becoming embarrassed to wear my uniform...

[IDtheTarget]

I've been in the military for 21 years now, partly because I love our Constitution and believe that somebody has to be willing to sacrifice for its defense. I've also been a Republican for my adult voting life. However, it's events like this that make me question both situations. The Right will let me keep my firearms, but will steal my computer. The Left will let me keep my computer, but will steal my firearms. What is a reasonable person to do these days????

Flying with firearms.

[Firethorn]

I'm not saying that TSA shouldn't have these powers, but even when you tell them that you're carrying spent pistol/rifle casings, they don't always give you a hard time.

I haven't even been given a hard time the various times I've flown with firearms and LIVE ammunition.

Some suggestions:
1. Don't fly to/from some of the more gun-phobic areas. NYC, Chicago, and Washington DC are the biggest ones I've heard. I've even flown into NY with a rifle no problem(went hunting with my dad and grandfather). Note: this was outside NYC, during hunting season, with a scoped lever-action 30-30.
2. Ammunition should be in origional packaging. The actual rule is more or less that ammunition shall not be loose or loaded into a magazine. Still, I've heard of problems with the aftermarket plastic ones reloaders are fond of. Reloaders - I'm sure you have some commercial boxes around. Stuff your custom rounds in there.
3. Case must be hardsided, and in a departure from normal TSA rules, must be LOCKABLE. NOTE: TSA doesn't make a deal out of this, but TSA locks are actually illegal/violate policy. The law predates 9/11 and the TSA, and the OWNER is the only one supposed to know the combo or possess a key to the case. TSA locks have the overide - so it'd violate the policy.
4. Shouldn't have to mention this, but the gun must be unloaded. I normally either pull the bolt/remove the slide. Or have the slide pulled back with the chamber up. Ammunition should be in a different bag.
5. On check in declare to the agent 'I need to declare a firearm'. I personally want to get the declare out first so they don't think I'm threatening them or anything. There's a form you sign and stuff in the case that says the firearm is unloaded. Then you take it to the TSAs, they should recognize a gun case and inspect it right there, then you lock it up, and it goes on.

I have flown with:
CZ75BD - 9mm semiautomatic handgun, multiple times.
Marlin .30-30 - lever action rifle
Remington 7mm - bolt action rifle
M1 Garand - WWII Battle rifle, semi-automatic internal magazine
Colt M16A2 - assault rifle, with 'da switch'. Government owned.

Given these powers exist, and as an alien travelling through the TSA "interested" lane, I can say that they don't always use them. I would imagine that they are like any other police officer: Give them a hard time and they will make your life hard, because they can. Treat them like they are doing a necessary job and help them if at all possible and they will appreciate your "cooperation" and not waste your time and theirs.

I call this the 'good neighbor policy'. You don't be a dick unnessesarily and you'll find life much smoother. Applies with pretty much anybody, not just TSA and police.

I frequently fly with a full size laptop, portable HD, and memory stick. Never been hassled beyond the standard 'put computer in bin, take shoes off, put in bin, run everything through the machine'. Been in the blow machine a few times. Have been surprised that I didn't set it off(very active shooter).

I still think that the TSA needs to be dialed back a few notches - I might consider flying a bit more often then. As is, I'll only fly for emergencies(like my grandmother dying), or work.

Consider getting active

[PottedMeat]

And by active, I don't mean spending 2 hours waiting in line every four years just to push a button or parroting the nonsense heard on the mainstream "news" while standing by the water cooler or forwarding the latest "I'm pissed off about (blank)" spam email.

From the New Hampshire consitution (1784):

Article 10

"Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind."

It's not just that people don't talk like this any more but don't have the balls to act like it either (or are just too addicted to nonsense like American Idol). Being a good American means being responsible for your country; not bending over when an oppressive govt says to.

Like to move to NH and get active? Try www.freestateproject.org

Comic Strip

[LatencyKills]

I saw a comic strip a couple of years ago (I wish I could find a link to give credit) that seems very apt. It was just one panel, and in it an Uncle Sam character is at the gift wrapping counter at a store and there's a box on the counter labelled "New Law" and the guy behind the counter is asking how he wants that wrapped. He's got two types of paper "Protect the Children" and "War on Terror." How the fsck did we end up here?

Terrorists 1 - USA 0

[easyTree]

Looks to me like the 'terrorists' (if they actually exist) have acheived their goal.

The quality of life of every American (and now anyone even visiting your stupid country or living in a country whose government is capable of being worried by the USA's overreactions) has been changed beyond recognition. Good effort.

Re:Good luck...

[Quattro Vezina]

Y'know, this might be an interesting idea...

Imagine if the passphrase to your key was the contents of a large binary on your system. Anyone trying to break it would just see a prompt asking for a passphrase; they'd never expect to have to do something like 'cat /usr/bin/mplayer | decrypt somefile'. No, they'd just run 'decrypt somefile' and try to type something in when prompted 'Enter your passphrase: '. And good luck brute-forcing it; you it'll take forever to brute-force a passphrase that size (/usr/bin/mplayer on my system is 8195KB...good luck brute-forcing that).

Re:Bull

[easyTree]

That's the way this shit always works. Look at the measures taken to deter PC-game piracy. Only people who've purchased the game are troubled by the need to keep inserting the disc to play. Those who download it for free have had this featurette removed for them. Looks like blatant encouragement to break the rules to me..

Simple Answer...

[LVSlushdat]

Since it appears we now live in a police state, don't take any laptops across any border.. Now when they start doing this elsewhere, then they can pry my laptop from my cold dead fingers...

Give them an inch...

[russotto]

And they'll take a fucking parsec. There's long been an understanding that searches (without warrant or probable cause) at the border are legitimate and do not violate the Fourth Amendment. However, I don't think any court has ruled that the border search power is unlimited, and certainly doesn't extend to indefinite seizure of anything which might hold information.

Of course, DHS isn't totally dumb. They are going to be very careful to use this only on people who are unable to put up a fight (which probably includes you and me), allowing them to maintain their policy without court issues. The courts will likely help by denying standing for various excuses.

Re:ASUS EEE etc

[PReDiToR]

The 4Gs I bought have an 800x480 screen, 4GB of SSD.
It isn't enough. My family (still in Vegas due to illness) have one of these still in their possession to use for Skype(+Out) calls and email. It works fine if you have good eyes, but all three people have glasses and could really do with those extra couple of inches (couldn't we all?).
I intend to find a fast USB key (8/16GB) to hardwire into mine to make the silly little /dev/sda obsolete.

Once you decide that this size computer is acceptable to you the price of it then becomes a function of disposable income. I was more than happy with my HTC Universal for long enough. 64MB SSD, SDHC reader, 640x480 screen, 128MB RAM, WiFI and BlueTooth. Add 3G internet access into that and only the use you put it to will decide on which is the better machine. If there was an NX client for PocketPC I would have never needed the EEE.
Note also that the EEE doesn't have MS tax on it, which was a selling point to me.

No Rights Until On US Soil

[geomon]

What most US citizens don't realize is that your 4th Amendment Rights - all of your Constitutional Rights - don't kick in until you are actually on US soil. That means you have to get through Customs first. So, legally, until you are released from Customs, you are not covered by the Constitutional protections many of you claim the DHS is violating.

I know this is an Alice in Wonderland-esque parsing of the rules, but it is a fact. You are not *in* the US until Customs lets you pass. The alternative is to go back into the country where you are coming from (let's say, Canada), head to a US embassy (which is US soil), and then file a complaint about your treatment at the border. It isn't likely to get much traction, but at least once you are on the embassy compound grounds, you are a US citizen again with full Constitutional rights.

Haven't you ever wondered how the Customs people are able to tear apart cars looking for drugs and illegal aliens without a court order?

Re:Good luck...

[SiChemist]

You'd better not update mplayer, then! :-)

Re:Good luck...

[1u3hr]

Y'know, this might be an interesting idea... Imagine if the passphrase to your key was the contents of a large binary on your system.

Well, now you've published that idea, it would take them a couple of minutes at most to check all the binaries on any machine. Why not just use your wife's name + her birthday? They'd NEVER think of that.

Re:Good luck...

[albee01]

Imagine if the passphrase to your key was the contents of a large binary on your system. Anyone trying to break it would just see a prompt asking for a passphrase; they'd never expect to have to do something like 'cat /usr/bin/mplayer | decrypt somefile'. No, they'd just run 'decrypt somefile' and try to type something in when prompted 'Enter your passphrase: '. And good luck brute-forcing it; you it'll take forever to brute-force a passphrase that size (/usr/bin/mplayer on my system is 8195KB...good luck brute-forcing that).

It's a good idea but impractical. What if the binary you selected is patched or updated?

This wouldn't work for whole drive encryption either because accessing your passphrase would require decrypting the drive and your passphrase.

This is a form of security by obscurity which is generally not a good thing.

Ron Paul?

[argent]

Is it embarrassing enough to make Ron Paul look good yet?

Here's what to say.

[twasserman]

"I'm not the one you're looking for." -- Obi-Wan Kenobi

Privacy and freedom: get over it. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights: bad prognosis, but trying to survive in hiding until January 20, 2009.

If you want to understand how leaders like Stalin and Hitler got so many millions of people to follow them and built up such powerful "security" forces, you don't have to look outside the borders of the US. Just picture Dick Cheney in an SS uniform.

DHS constantly does domestic searches!

[RY]

"Border" searches include people who have not departed the U.S. Depending where you travel in the U.S. DHS still stops people and searches them for not leaving the country.

Same thing happens between San Diego and L.A. there are DHS checkpoints on I-5 and I-15 which are 40 miles from the international border.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004364797_ferrypatrol22m.html
and
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2008/07/02/immigration_checks_on_ferry_runs_irk_locals/

"A couple of months ago, the U.S. Border Patrol began occasional "spot checks" of every vehicle and passenger arriving in Anacortes off state ferries, the lifeline between these islands and the mainland. ... In the islands' coffee shops and the editorial pages of the local paper, then in a crowded, heated meeting last month, a number of people have complained that islanders are being unfairly treated and questioned, even though they haven't left the country and normally wouldn't be subject to such scrutiny. ... The Border Patrol responds that the stops are annoying but necessary, the cost of keeping the country safe. It maintains that a terrorist could easily use the same maze of waterways and islands here that for generations has harbored smugglers, rumrunners and drug dealers. ... San Juan Islanders are used to customs inspections in Anacortes if they take the ferry that comes from Sidney, B.C. Before now, though, they were never subjected to checks on domestic ferry runs.

That changed in February, when federal agents started corralling everyone off domestic ferries into a fenced-off area in Anacortes and questioning them about their citizenship. It now happens once, maybe twice a week; no one has any way to know if they will be stopped."

WELCOME TO AMERIKA, BTW nice I-phone.....

"Buy a used laptop and abandon it"

[pentalive]

Ok here's an idea, someone setup "Rent a Laptop" in the baggage collection section the airports - while you are at your destination you can rent one of these, Get your pictures and movies and what ever.

As an extra service: The laptop has strong encryption installed - before you turn it back in at departure you encrypt your stuff and fill in a text file with contact information. While you are flying home the laptop landords are sending you the encrypted file. Then they wipe the machine for the next person. You can also send the data yourself of course and even wipe the machine yourself (It's ok to turn in a blank-disked laptop)

Re:Good luck...

[jeebusroxors]

I'm not sure about you, but /I/ store my USB stick with my encryption keys down south when traveling, if you catch my drift.
It sure is a pain in the ass to recover it though.

And then sold on eBay

[ACMENEWSLLC]

One of our cooperate laptops was detained by DHS indefinitely. I think they sold it on eBay. The hard drive wasn't re-formatted, so our admin software was still tracking it when it showed up at a truck stop thousands of miles away a few months later.

We watched it move around the Eastern sea board for a while before our "remote wipe hard drive" task actually worked correclty.

I wonder when we will get this one back?

This is a violation of the 5th amendment;
"..nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

 

Re:Good luck...

[Westech]

Imagine if the passphrase to your key was the contents of a large binary on your system.

Even better, set your passphrase to:

"Amendment IV: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

That way even if they do crack it they'll probably die of shame as they're typing it in.

Re:The worst part. is STILL there is a problem...

[davidsyes]

Sometiems, a public announcement is made of the arrest. If the publicized court dockets/calendar are on the wall for all to see standing outside the courtroom, then what's to stop these things from getting into Google, Yahoo!, Lexis/Nexis-like databases (maybe you're a key officer of a company, dismissed for some false/improper charges, and make the news and the d/b rounds), and so on..

Even if the courts expunge/seal records, many people will still be screwed if the DHLS accusations make it to court, even if the court finds you innocent, that Customs/Border Patrol agents overstepped the bounds of the law, and so on.

What is really tragic is that we will never be told (public) the baseline parameters that DEFINITELY CAUSE a laptop/electronics confiscation, and how to avoid any anguish, and what are "questionable" so as to avoid being caught up.

It's almost as if to speed things up (not losing one's electronics) "the government" is trying to coerce the public to be prepared to accept and "escrow" type of agency that will work on behalf of travelers. It might work something like this:

-- Disclose your electronics to an entity that will create a fingerprint of the basic drive/media.

-- Any data you create or edit should be done on OTHER, smaller, easier-to-inspect/copy media

-- Make your fingerprinted media read-only while on travel if that is what it takes to help you speed through CBP

Now, the questions arising might be:

-- "How do we know they aren't recording the contents beyond just making a fingerprint file?"

-- "Doesn't that make us react as if we're guilty without even being charged?"

and so on.

Well, if that's what it takes to avoid having my laptop "stolen" by agents (I KNOW I am not doing illegal things rising to the level of any CBP/FBI/CIA/NSA/local PD/RIAA/ to actually TAKE my laptop especially if it's stuff I could be asked to delete (say, i stumble upon a site and download a national security file, or browse a site and 2 or 3 porn/smut images end up in my cache...) an offending file.

All i know is that i would not be annoyed one frackin' BIT if CBP is assailed by anyone innocent going ballistic on them. This is just PLAIN WRONG to allow any agency take things with no clear written rules, no advice on how to avoid being suspected, no way to know if our public commentary on this will make us targets of retaliation, and so on. I guess they're making many of us morph into "morbid curiosity bystanders" waiting to see someone (on our behalf/by non-contact extension) take them DOWN or take them TO TASK.

Finally, I have NOT had any negative issues with taking my laptop to Japan in 04, and I did not have Customs ask to search me when I arrived back to SFO. However, because I spent a lot of time at Funenokagakukan, and because I visited Mitsubishi and talked about my drawings (maybe 15-20 minutes), and probably triggered an undercover NCIS officer to visit the hostel (pretending to be a guess, even bunking in the hostel, when purportedly he was stationed at Yokohama...), the Customs officer DID, after asking for my passport, run his thumb the lamination and the paper quite a bit of time (15 seconds maybe?) and his facial expression made me think he was told in advance to make damned sure it was ME actually RETURNING to the US soil. Not that I had a fake passport, but that they wanted to be SURE I did indeed depart Japan (a courtesy request by Japan? a US check-up to make sure I am back "home"?) AND return to the US...

That said, I suppose if MY laptop is ever taken, it will be a great source of unbound rage and resentment. It would seen as a hostile act. And, even if I DO back up everything and have to buy a new laptop, it would be QUITE a major irritant, ESPECIALLY if my stuff (which has income-making potential for me) is taken and ends up on the street in someone else's name before *i* produce & sell in my name. I say they better QUICKLY devise an escrow/fast-pass type of system for private, non-business, non-diplomatic travelers. Prevention is better than a ham-fisted "cure".

Re:Good luck...

[kybred]

Why not just use your wife's name + her birthday?

That's no good, I need something that I can remember.

Mod parent up

[Jesus_666]

I think this deserves an Informative.

Re:The borderlands.

[nedwidek]

Except the constitution does not place limits on actions of the government in a place. It places limits on the government's actions period.

Now if you'd like to quote a border exception or some part of the constitution that says it no longer is in effect at certain locations or that by stepping outside of the country that our rights with respect to the government disappear.

Good luck. I'll check in time to time to see if you've found it. Now as far as it goes, the federal government has decided to pay less and less respect to the constitution over the past 150 years. This move really isn't surprising. It's more amazing that they bother paying lip service to the constitution anymore.