Infineon Chipset May Be Cause of IPhone 3G Issues

JagsLive sends along a CNet blog piece about a plausible theory to explain the iPhone 3G connection problems many users have experienced. Apple has not acknowledged any such problems. "Richard Windsor of Nomura published a research note... Tuesday singling out the iPhone 3G's chipset, made by Infineon, as the probable culprit for the reception problems we reported on Monday. The dropped calls, service interruptions, and abrupt network switches experienced by iPhone 3G users reminded Windsor of similar complaints five years ago, when 3G phones were first launched in Europe. 'We believe that these issues are typical of an immature chipset and radio protocol stack where we are almost certain that Infineon is the 3G supplier,' Windsor wrote. 'This is not surprising as the Infineon 3G chipset solution has never really been tested in the hands of users. Some people will not experience these problems as it is only in areas where the radio signal weakens that the immaturity of the stack really shows.'"

Comments

No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Crap testing is the cause of iPhone 3G issues. There are always issues before a product is released. The testing is supposed to find them. Something as obvious as this issue indicates that Apple didn't give a shit about testing.

Re:No.

[Darkness404]

...And why would they? Not only do you have a devoted Mac rumors bunch of people who will blog about a suspicious scratch on someone's iPhone, but you have the fanboys who if Apple markets iCrap they will buy 10 of them, and then 5 more when the price drops. Not to mention the fact that Apple is half-way open source and Unix based it keeps the tech guys buying it. Really, Apple can't even test an iPhone outside of a secret underground lab without it being leaked. Take that plus the fanboys and you have a company that can't and has little need to do testing.

Re:No.

[PainMeds]

There are always issues before a product is released. The testing is supposed to find them.

You're not too familiar with Apple products, are you?

Re:No.

[bigstrat2003]

They do have little need to do any testing, but their difficulty in keeping it secret is no excuse whatsoever for not testing their shit. Your cult fanbase backfires sometimes? Oh, cry me a river. You still have to test your shit if you want happy customers, just like every other company on earth.

Re:No.

[paanta]

No, the problem is that the fan base is insane and expectations are through the roof. If two blackberries in a million are faulty, it'll never make it onto slashdot. The two account execs who own them just don't care about the product enough to bitch. If two iPhones in a million show up with some hairline cracks on them, all of a sudden it's on Consumerist and MacRumors and every other tech website.

Sorry, but all products have flaws. You're delusional if you think that even 1% of companies are able to find all the bugs in their product before it makes it out the door. Even my f-ing Honda has had recalls.

I think the goal is consumer satisfaction, and Apple has consistently proven themselves capable in delivering a product that people love. The problem is that people love it so very, very much that they're willing to spend 30 hours posting about perceived slowness in the interface or perceived slowness in download speeds. Ultimately, no one is producing a product like the iPhone that surpasses the iPhone's user experience, and that counts for a lot.

Re:No.

[clang_jangle]

Are you kidding? Apple products face the most rigorous real-world testing known -- the real world! Those of us who've used their products since the 1980s know this well, and we never buy the new stuff until the masses have tested it thoroughly for us and at least Rev C has been released. Typically, by then it will be perfect. Although sometimes it pays to wait for Rev D -- that's usually the final version, and the most featureful.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

... just like every other company on earth.

except microsoft

Re:No.

[lymond01]

perceived slowness in the interface

It's real, I tell you! The slowness is....ooooh, shiny Apple Logo on the back...

Re:No.

[tyrione]

Please cue random, ``If OS X were Open Sourced it would all disappear,'' comment.

Working with Linux and OS X on a daily basis the defense, ``Linux is free'' doesn't hold water anymore due to the billions invested by IBM and others to make it stable.

I love both Operating Systems, but drop the juvenile rant about first released products. You might as well bring back the Car analogy and all the recalls that occur in the auto-industry, even though that's over 100 years old.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Crap testing is what you do to find intestinal parasites or hidden blood. There's no point to crap testing on a phone, unless you've shoved it up your ass.

Testing does not always find problems, or issues may be initially written off as unimportant, or conditions for test were way off the mark. I'm sure the iphone got as much scrutiny, if not more, than your typical phone.

First generation hardware of any stripe tends to have issues, just as any first generation software. It has to be time-tested in the real world before all the bugs are ironed out.

Re:No.

[Sockatume]

Not to be pedantic, I think you're conflating regular old wonky products, which account for about 2-5% of iPhones, Blackberries, DVD players etc. and arise from the inevitable crapshoot of quality control, with "bugs" and poorly designed products, which necessitate an en-masse recall or revision. I mean, if 20,000 iPhones out of a million have dodgy screens or Just Don't Work, then those 20,000 get replaced by the manufacturer or the store under warranty. If iPhones are designed in such a fashion that they perform poorly to other 3G phones, which is what the article discusses, then that's something which should've been caught at the "let's try it out" stage at the latest.

This isn't to say that the article's wild guesswork is right, of course. I kind of doubt it.

Re:No.

[tyrione]

Stating it and proving it through a test environment are two entirely different realities. For cryin' out loud there are plenty of developers around here dealing with TCP/IP, switches, wireless protocols to wired protocols to discover where the bottlenecks reside.

Having consulted at AT&T Wireless I'll be my left nut that the main culprit is on THEIR END.

In reality it will be a compound issue between both Apple and AT&T.

Re:No.

[hellwig]

If I buy a $10k Toyota Yaris and the tires fall off, I pretty much figured that was bound to happen.

I buy a $600k Ferrari Enzo and there's a fingerprint on my rear-view mirror, you're damn right I'm driving that thing back to the dealer and demanding he fix it.

Apple has forced this upon themselves by being so proprietary (it's supposed to work better because you can't repair/replace it's parts) and so expensive ($600 phone? no thanks).

If they were just a normal company, these flaws are expected/common-place. It's the fact that Apple has to be so pretentious, self-righteous, and all-mighty that makes even small flaws across a small portion of their products so damned important. Most companies that demand so much loyalty do so because they've earned it (every Rolls-Royce is hand-assembled, only the finest components make-up the interior, etc...). Apple, on the other hand, uses inferior chips and batteries, slaps their logo and a big price-tag on it, and ships it out the door. They then ignore/deny any problems with their product, which apparently means the problems don't exist in their opinion, so they can keep pretending they're different from other companies.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with Apple is that they try to be too secretive with their upcoming product roadmap. Many (most?) companies share their product roadmap for months, if not years ahead so that prospective customers can get some idea of the kinds of awesome goodies that are in the pipeline.

Apple on the other hand makes everything a god damn huge secret until launch day and then people wonder why they have tons of bugs in their products? If they actually got some of the shit out there in the hands of developers and beta testers before launch they'd have found all these problems.

Re:No.

[PopeRatzo]

If I buy a $10k Toyota Yaris and the tires fall off, I pretty much figured that was bound to happen.

What we have here are consumers behaving like battered wives. This joker accepts that ten thousand dollars is not enough to expect the most basic utility of a product. There are those who would criticize another consumer for complaining about getting an iPhone (or Yaris, or Xbox, or iPod, or MacBook, or...) that is a lemon. That is how badly misused they have been by our consumerist system. When we buy a product and it doesn't work, we should blame ourselves for not having spent enough money, or, get this one, for expecting too much.

No wonder corporations are having such an easy time replacing government in sovereign nations. Consumers don't even have enough self-respect to expect the most basic value from a product (or service). This has got to be related to the reason people vote Republican, even faced with incontrovertible evidence that it is against their own best interests.

I don't know about you, but this seems like a pretty shitty way to live. If the public were my sister, and her husband were to treat her the way the corporate culture treats consumers, I would tell her to divorce the bastard, or perhaps poison his coffee.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh... I have owned a few Apple products over the years:

First was a G3 iMac that I bought specifically so I could try out OS X. The CRT died after a few months. Well, it will still sort of work sometimes, if I'm lucky (fortunately I rarely have to use that machine).

Next was a G4 iBook. It has the only dead pixels on any LCD display I own and the battery is on its last leg but other than that it has been alright (OS X ain't that great with the crashes and such though).

Next was a 1st generation iPod Nano. A short developed in the cable for the wheel and burned out. I actually took it apart and repaired it (I'm an electronics technician so I has the necessary equipment) but it still broke in the first place.

Next was a 2nd generation iPod Nano. One day it just died out of the blue. Would not power on. Fortunately it was still under warranty (free shipping to Apple). Seems I'm not the only person that had the issue.

Next was an iPod Touch. The Home button just stopped working shortly after the 2.0 update. I still need to take it in to get another one. Aparently this also has happened to a number of people. So much so it seems Apple no longer offers free shipping and now I have to either cough up $30+ for shipping (ridiculous, why can't I ship it the slow cheap way instead of overnight?) or drive several hours to the nearest Apple store (which will probably cost about the same in gas alone).

So... What do I think of Apple products? Hahaha...

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that the iPhone is not $600 anymore, right? (If you want to start including the monthly fees too, then do the same with every other phone you want to compare the phone to. I *do* include them, that's why I use a prepaid phone instead... if I could use an iPhone with a VM prepaid account, I would. I personally wouldn't care if it still cost $600. The monthly fee rather than the hardware initial cost is what puts me off of most cell phones.)

Re:No.

[demachina]

"Apple has consistently proven themselves capable in delivering a product that people love" ...except for MobileMe..... though maybe they will salvage now that they turned it over to the iTunes team. Don't think AppleTV is a raging success yet either.

It is a knock against Apple that they are so secretive in their product launches that they can't really beta test new products so when things go bad they can go bad in a big way. That was apparently the case with MobileMe, it wasn't tested well at all to handle high loads.

I'm not sure how they tested the new 3G in the iPhone but I assume it was mostly tested by Apple employees in Silicon Valley which probably doesn't give you test coverage for areas which aren't dense and urban with a saturation cell tower coverage. It wouldn't be surprising if the chip set is new that it hasn't been tested in a broad array of areas with spotty or otherwise complex cell coverage.

Re:No.

[icebike]

Please cue random, ``If OS X were Open Sourced it would all disappear,'' comment.

Working with Linux and OS X on a daily basis the defense, ``Linux is free'' doesn't hold water anymore due to the billions invested by IBM and others to make it stable.

Sorry, that's just plain wrong.

Linux was ROCK solid stable for a LOOOOONG time before IBM invested one thin dime into it, or put one kernel developer on the payroll.

It might not have been pretty, but it was stable since the Pleistocene.

Re:No.

[djdavetrouble]

hehe. Its funny because its true !

Re:No.

[icebike]

What we have here are consumers behaving like battered wives.

You are officially on notice that I am stealing that line.

Mod parent insightful.

Re:No.

[ChrisA90278]

"The testing is supposed to find them."

Even in theory testing can't find all possible problems. A simple example would be if, let's say some defect caused one of of every ten millions phones to catch fire and explode. One would need to build over a hundred million test phones to detect a trend.

What we've got here is something like this. It seems to an intermitent one in ten thousand type problem. It affects a very few users for a few minutes now and then. The phones are not really broken they just perform poorly when the signal is weak ad seem to work fine when moved.

This is the knind of thing you can't test until you hve millions of phone in the field

Re:No.

[rukcus]

I would argue that we expect so little out of our consumer products because we are powerless to effectively get the service we demand from warranties/guarantees/promises. ... Quite the similar feeling people have about bureaucratic democracies.

Re:No.

[peragrin]

actually having used my iphone, half of the problem is with at&T's shitty 3G coverage. I literally traveled 3 miles in a straight line along a mostly flat plain. at each end of the line I had a full signal, in the middle of the line I couldn't get anything in 3G or edge.

I have 3G coverage at home and at work, but since I work in a metal building I have to go near the walls to get any kind of decent signal(that doesn't matter which phone I am using) So my battery life on 3G drains massively limiting me to a day with light cell use and occasional web browsing. if I switch to edge I can go 2 days, as it stops trying to reconnect every 10 minutes.

i am just i the habit if I am not using web browsing to turn off 3G. I get better battery life, and all I can do is wait to see if AT&T improves their spotty service.

Re:No.

[Nefarious Wheel]

I worked for Apple in Cupertino during the Apple ][ / Apple /// days. The transition happened then.

Woz was a genuine engineer, and in his spec all Apple ]['s were burned in over 4 days in a hot room (50 degrees C) before they were packaged and shipped to the stores. The ]['s were very well known for reliability, which along with excellent packaging (yep, not all Jobs' competence is Reality Distortion Field) very few were returned for any sort of quality issue.

The Apple /// was a slightly different issue -- there was a problem with a clock chip supplier that worked as an object lesson that you can outsource a lot of things, but responsibilty (if not actual testing) can't be one of them.

And due to pressures of IBM's release of the flawed but powerfully marketed brand-new 8086 based PCat that point, the first real competition in the business world put pressures on Apple that it hadn't encountered before, thus a decision to release what they had in bulk to gain market share and risk returns overrode the impulse to limit supply by running them through that hot room first. This was the first disjunct and marketing lesson (see Apple and "Black Friday" and "duck quack synthesizer" if you can find the reference) for a company that was learning about how to go from company to corporation in one huge lump. Apple grew from $0.5M to $0.5B in gross sales that year, in their defense, and that's a huge amount of change to absorb.

Money wasn't really a problem, learning to land the fish was.

Imagine -- if you have a job that moves dirt 1/2 ton at a time, you're fine buying a half-ton pickup to move it. You can even scale that up a few times. But if you're suddenly faced with moving a million tons of dirt, you have to find a more complex solution than simply buying a half-million trucks. Everything Apple suffered during that phase was a result of the huge success of the Apple ][. That kind of scale didn't bother IBM, but we had trouble finding places to put people and other concerns of gearing up.

Re:No.

[GoodNicksAreTaken]

No wonder corporations are having such an easy time replacing government in sovereign nations. Consumers don't even have enough self-respect to expect the most basic value from a product (or service). This has got to be related to the reason people vote Republican, even faced with incontrovertible evidence that it is against their own best interests.

I blame Kansas

Re:No.

[Kreisler]

Ah yes...I remember testing a couple of Performas and an LC 520. I happily let Apple know that the Performa series was indeed crap and gave them several hundred bucks to help offset their costs.

Re:No.

[Darkness404]

You still have to test your shit if you want happy customers, just like every other company on earth.

But Apple is a tech company. It isn't like every other company. Apple is basically marketed to those who are Mac fanboys. Ok, the iPod has reached the level that just about everyone has at least used one, but for Macs and the iPhone/Touch it is mostly the fanboys that buy them. During Apple's lean years it wasn't the general population that supported them, it was the Apple fanatics, and in software with very little production costs and hardware that you can mark up $100+ easily Apple can at least survive purely on that.

Microsoft is the a absolute opposite, it can avoid testing because people are more or less forced to buy the products it sells.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's an AT&T issue most likely, my last three phones have had the same problems on a regular basis

Re:No.

[jessedorland]

If RIM -- the makers of Blackberries decided to create a mobile device which doesn't let you replace the battery. There would be a protest, and pressure from business community. There is a reason Blackberries are popular among business community -- this would not happen with iPhone. iPhone is only good for show off but that's about it.

Re:No.

[jessedorland]

So these are only choice American have; McCain and Obama? I am sorry but I will not be voting in this election. They both sucks. Democracy as system has failed. We might as well have military running our country.

Re:No.

[Nefarious Wheel]

Screw the karma, I'll have to explain the reference. The Apple /// had serious problems, and the Macintosh wasn't on the horizon yet. IBM brought out their Personal Computer. Mike (I think it was Markkula, could be wrong (get off my lawn!)) walked around firing everybody responsible, and a fair bit of collateral damage as well (this was during the hazy Silicon Valley heyday where the industry moved very fast on things). His reason, overheard at the time -- "IBM has just brought out a competing product. The interest on their petty cash reserves is more than we bring in in a year, and you guys are trying to invent a duck quack synthesizer."

When my lady and I bought a Mac LC in Tasmania a couple of years afterward, one of the system sounds available during the demo was a lovely "Quack!". We utterly pissed ourselves laughing in the showroom. Never explained why. Those crazy Yanks...

Re:No.

[sejanus]

I have never read such drivel. Saying they are not fit for serious use is laughable.

Re:No.

[flosofl]

For example Finder doesn't distinguish between files and folders.

Really? So in Finder, View->Keep Arranged By->Kind doesn't work for you? How strange. I'm sure Google was broken that day, I just checked and it's in the first link.

You can also make the change permanent and global in View->Show View Options and setting the drop down of Arrange By to Kind and then clicking Use as Defaults.

Re:No.

[Darkness404]

Apple never admits that there anything wrong with their products. Never.

News flash, all proprietary software vendors avoid admitting that there is anything wrong with the products they make.

Both companies tries to lock customers into their brand.

And how is that different than anything else? But at least OS X is more flexible, for example, the core anyone can get (based on BSD) the rendering engine for the browser anyone can get (based on KHTML, now forked to WebKit). Other bits of OS X are F/OSS too. Compare that with Windows where not a single line of code is OSS. If someone felt like it you could easily write a compatible Mac OS clone. Whereas with Windows about every line of code has to be reverse engineered.

Re:No.

[Doctor_Jest]

You are spot on, but I submit that it's even worse than that...

Voting Republican is the same as voting Democrat.

You're voting for the one party system. I've said it 10k times on Slashdot, but it bears repeating... we have a two-party system in name only. The "scary", polarizing issues (class-warfare, abortion, God) are a smokescreen to hide the true nature of the one-party system. Their job, that has been true for as long as I've been alive, is to subjugate, to keep in the dark, and otherwise to create cogs for the massive wheel that is corporatism. The politicians, as Carlin so eloquently said, are there to give us the illusion of choice. The corporations run the show. And the politicians are their puppets. We exist only to consume and be the grist for the mill, so to speak. In their perfect wet-dream of a world, we'd be paying real $ to hum a tune, or for that matter, consume air.

You're oh-so-right. It's a shitty way to live. But our desire for "ooh! shiny!" has done it to us. And our insistence on letting the rich cocksuckers (who couldn't care less if you lived or died, as long as you didn't stain their sidewalk) run the show was icing on the cake.

I'm just as guilty as the next person in terms of buying things. But as I've gotten older, my computers have stayed in one place longer, upgrades are fewer and far more reasonable, and I don't particularly care about the next big gadget. But, I'm not the "target" demographic. I'm too old now to be useful, except to fill the slots necessary for corporations to rake in money and make products that enslave, murder, and generally trample the American dream.

I understand now why Jefferson railed against a non-agrarian society. We lost our self-sufficiency, we lost our ability to weather the tyrannies of government, and we've lost the ability to fight for ourselves and for those less fortunate than us.

...and I blame myself as much as I do "the system."

Re:No.

[Buran]

there's a fingerprint on my rear-view mirror, you're damn right I'm driving that thing back to the dealer and demanding he fix it.

It would take far less time and expense (gas ain't cheap anymore, yaknow) to "fix" it your own damn self with a cloth wipe and a bottle of Windex that you probably have already under your kitchen sink.

Re:No.

[Hal_Porter]

News flash, all proprietary software vendors avoid admitting that there is anything wrong with the products they make.

And anyone who criticizes free software is a shill for some proprietary software vendor!

Re:No.

[Kagura]

Mod parent insightful.

You're not the boss of me! I am an individual!

Re:No.

[dakameleon]

This is a very specific problem for switchers, of which there is a growing number. We're used to our "Explorer"-esque views being folders-by-alphabetical, then files-by-alphabetical - two easily distinguished alphabetical lists which make searching a binary choice followed by an alphabetical search. Finder either sorts all-by-alphabetical (simple alphabetical search), or files-by-alphabetical-by-type-by-alphabetical (simple alphabetical search ^ 2).

To expand on that - The difference is when sorting by kind, for a sufficiently large set of files, you'll have to scan multiple times through an alphabetical list - simple alphabetical searching is doubled, as you find the file type and then the file within the subset. Explorer allows you to differentiate quickly between groupings-of-files ("folders") and files themselves, and then finding the file name is simply a matter of knowing the filename.

You don't have to know any metadata about the file, such as that it is sorted by Finder into the "Video file" clumping instead of the "AVI File" clumping, for example - and keeping metadata as knowledge in the world rather than knowledge in your head is a good thing.

Apple's way around this is Spotlight - if you know the file name, don't even bother trying to navigate, just search.

Old habits die hard though, and as a usability metaphor the Windows method is just as easy to latch on to.

Re:No.

[dakameleon]

Although sometimes it pays to wait for Rev D -- that's usually the final version, and the most featureful.

At which point, Apple supercedes it with Shiny New Product Rev A!

Re:No.

[Buran]

No, they'd just go and buy something else that has the features they want. It's not like there aren't a bazillion phones out there to choose from.

Re:No.

[Yer Mum]

If you already know the filename (as in your example), you just scroll down anyway until you find the file/folder.

The one that can really trip you up is if you overwrite a folder with another folder. In Windows the files in the overwritten folder remain. In MacOS they get deleted.

In both cases nobody's right or wrong but the user can get confused. It might be nice to have options to configure folder sorting or overwriting, but there are more pressing issues that need sorting out in Finder first. And Apple try to avoid putting in lots of tweaky options so don't hold your breath waiting for it.

Re:No.

[TyFoN]

Compare that with Windows where not a single line of code is OSS.

AFAIK, there is some BSD code in windows (the BSD license allows this). For instance the TCP/IP stack is (was?) from *BSD.

Re:No.

[Yer Mum]

Wireless connectivity has never been Apple's strong point. It seems every other Airport update manages to knock out a good number of Macs' wifi connection, and the next update is a rollback which brings it back...

(I own an iMac, I think it's great apart from wifi problems.)

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple products do NOT have flaws. It is the way Steve wanted it.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

This Apple 'loyal fanbase' myth is totally at odds with reality. Look at the sort of racket which was raised by users for mobileme issues and continue to be raised about 3g software, hardware and the kill switch, the idea that Apple users give Apple a free pass and Apple gets away easily is a fantasy milked by people who 'need' an explanation for Apple's success and would like to trivialize it.

These people are not interested in gadgets, technology or innovation but making a pointless statement about themselves either by buying a product or NOT buying it and I don't see what value they can add to any discussion apart from making it personal by disrespecting other people and peddling fantasy.

Apple is consistently held accountable and people make noise so I don't know the purpose of spreading this illusion, that Apple users are fanboys and other product users are somehow dispassioned users. That's a myth and there is no reason only Apple users should be defined by a minority fanboy base when all platforms have their share of irrational fanboys.

Every platform from Nokia, WM, Xbox, PS3, Wii, Windows will have its loyal users who will defend it irrationally but the general public buy stuff that fits into their life and fulfills some purpose. Tomorrow if Android comes along and delivers a better value proposition people will adopt that.

Re:No.

[Yer Mum]

Not sure how one post can be modded as 3, Informative then the two replies to that as 0. Offtopic. (Prepares for this post to be modded 0, Offtopic...)

Re:No.

[kamochan]

It might not have been pretty, but it was stable since the Pleistocene.

Damn, you made me feel my age. I was in the university in the same OS courses as Linus...

Re:No.

[YeeHaW_Jelte]

"If I buy a $10k Toyota Yaris and the tires fall off, I pretty much figured that was bound to happen.

I buy a $600k Ferrari Enzo and there's a fingerprint on my rear-view mirror, you're damn right I'm driving that thing back to the dealer and demanding he fix it. "

Funny you chose this comparison.

Toyota is know for its absolute dependability, it has the lowest failure rate of all car makes, while Ferrari probably has one of the higher failure rates, because their cars are made to be pretty and fast, not dependable.

Re:No.

[Ash-Fox]

You do realize that the iPhone is not $600 anymore, right? (If you want to start including the monthly fees too, then do the same with every other phone you want to compare the phone to.

Okay. My phone was free with a 12 month contract for £12 a month or I could of chosen the pay-as-you-go option and got it for £50.

This £12 contact includes 100 mix-match points (one point can be used for a phone call minute or message), 300 minutes of the first three minutes of any phone call free. Of course I can get a more expensive contract if I wanted. This is the plan I currently use.

It doesn't have a touch screen, but it has the ability to do Skype (doing it over the regular voice network, so you save battery life) and MSN for free. Battery life seems to last me for four-five days at a time. Works with Linux distributions just fine and has access to the wide mobile phone j2me repositories of software.

Now, I compare this the iPhone 3g, the 8GB model will cost just £99 on a new £30 per month tariff for 18 months with 75 free minutes, 125 texts. Poor battery life, the plan gives me less minutes and texts I will literally never use and a touch screen which I'm not too interested in.

(Although for some reason they list visual voice mail as a 'feature' with this tariff -- Okay? I get my voice mail as MMS messages on my phone which is 'visual' too...)

Yeah... I still think the phone I have is cheaper and better for my uses (particularly for the free communications I can get with Skype).

Re:No.

[Ash-Fox]

News flash, all proprietary software vendors avoid admitting that there is anything wrong with the products they make.

There is a difference between avoiding and refusing entirely claiming there is no problem. Apple tends to claim the latter.

for example, the core anyone can get (based on BSD) the rendering engine for the browser anyone can get (based on KHTML, now forked to WebKit).

I don't consider the sourcecode to a web browser component making OS X "more flexible".

Other bits of OS X are F/OSS too.

But does it actually make OS X more flexible? I don't believe so. What are you going to do with the source to a web browser component, seriously?

What are you going to do with Apple's customization of Samba? CUPS?

Compare that with Windows where not a single line of code is OSS.

If you sign some NDAs, you can get access to the entire Windows sourcecode.

If someone felt like it you could easily write a compatible Mac OS clone.

I disagree.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ironic. I've owned no less than 30 Apple Products (My iPhone 3G marks the even 30) and I have had only one, I repeat one, of them give me trouble. Ever.

In fact, I still have my venerable Mac Plus and as of 2 weeks ago, it's still kicking.

Other machines I still have are two iMacs (333mhz blueberry and a Graphite 700Mhz), two "Quicksilver" Powermac G4's (My dual processor is my "trouble child" with a blown motherboard, followed by a failed power supply 3 months later), an 800Mhz Titanium Powerbook, a MacBook Pro, a first Gen G5 Tower and the new 8 core MacPro, a 3rd Gen iPod, a 5th gen iPod, an iPod Nano, and an iPhone 3G.

Aside from the single Powermac that I mentioned, I've never had even the slightest amount of trouble with any of them.

You sir are trolling. So I suggest you, as the British may put it, sod off you wanker.

Re:No.

[mdwh2]

My experience is the opposite. Point out a flaw or lacking feature, and you get "Why would you need to do that?" They are happy to have a phone that Just Works.

Free publicity works both ways. The Iphone gets loads of free publicity even if it's just the Daily Mail passing a rumour on some new Apple vaporware (this was a recent Slashdot story). So when there's a flaw, it's not surprising that that gets load of attention too.

Sure, a far more serious problem in another phone might not get mentioned at all. But then, other phones never get publicity on Slashdot full stop, even for far more significant events, so I don't see any reason for Apple to complain.

Re:No.

[DurendalMac]

Oh, bullshit. You do realize that over 2 million of these things have been sold all over the world, right? How can you possibly test something out in every area and every scenario to catch every problem? It's not like Apple engineers could take it to every corner of AT&T's coverage area. My iPhone has not had this issue. The only time I've seen it go from 3G to EDGE was when I was either driving away from a 3G area and/or had a very weak signal to begin with. Believe it or not, this does not affect every iPhone user.

Re:No.

[cthulhu11]

Indeed, the Linux box I set up a few years ago was SOLIDLY pwnd when CERT called me up to get me to clean it off.

Re:No.

[kv9]

Working with Linux and OS X on a daily basis the defense, ``Linux is free'' doesn't hold water anymore due to the billions invested by IBM and others to make it stable.

it's free as in beer (I can download it for kernel.org without paying anyone a dime) and it's still Free as in speech (source, license, etc). for such a lowish UID, you sure don't seem to have any idea what you're talking about.

Re:No.

[bleh-of-the-huns]

I am going to disagree with you on this, and I am by no means an apple fanboi.
OSX, I actually like it, its polished, and works well (atleast on my dell laptop), but on the other hand their hardware is way over priced and I would never buy an apple computer.

I personally am from a freebsd/openbsd environment, I in general do not like MS products, but I will tell you that I have had pocketpc phones up till I picked up my iphone (last week, no line, no wait.. while I like the product, I was not willing to stand in line to buy it, for that matter I will never wait in a line to buy anything, I will wait till a later date to make a purchase of an item that is in high demand at the initial stages).

Yes the apple fanbois are annoying, and your probably right that they kept the company afloat during its leaner times, but the products they release are not all crap. Their policy of silencing the critics though, and pulling posts complaining about products is just plain stupid and lame in my opinion as well.

I guess what it comes down to, Apple is good at form and design, and testing seems to come as an after though. While I can blame them for using a shitty chipset in the iphone, my experience with ATT would have lead me to believe that if I was an apple engineer that the phone is fine and ATT just sucks. I am not sure if they tested the phone in other countries, but I bet if they had, they would have caught onto the problem much earlier and resolved it.

Re:No.

[Darkness404]

There is a difference between avoiding and refusing entirely claiming there is no problem. Apple tends to claim the latter.

Look at Windows, apparently the fact that Vista hardly runs on current-gen or last-gen hardware isn't a problem.

I don't consider the sourcecode to a web browser component making OS X "more flexible".

Except that you can actually write standard HTML for a default web browser and it would render correctly? Compare that to IE where about every single line of code has to be duplicated to work on it.

But does it actually make OS X more flexible? I don't believe so. What are you going to do with the source to a web browser component, seriously? What are you going to do with Apple's customization of Samba? CUPS?

Number 1, easier to port applications to. Number 2, easier to write applications for if you don't own the OS. As for Samba and etc, if Apple finds a bug that the other developers haven't found yet, it gets fixed both places and vice versa.

If you sign some NDAs, you can get access to the entire Windows sourcecode.

Under the Open Source Definition, licenses must meet ten conditions in order to be considered open source licenses. Below is a copy of the definition, with unauthorized explanatory additions. There is a link to the original unmodified text below. It was taken under fair use. 1. Free Redistribution: the software can be freely given away or sold. (This was intended to expand sharing and use of the software on a legal basis.) 2. Source Code: the source code must either be included or freely obtainable. (Without source code, making changes or modifications can be impossible.) 3. Derived Works: redistribution of modifications must be allowed. (To allow legal sharing and to permit new features or repairs.) 4. Integrity of The Author's Source Code: licenses may require that modifications are redistributed only as patches. 5. No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups: no one can be locked out. 6. No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor: commercial users cannot be excluded. 7. Distribution of License: The rights attached to the program must apply to all to whom the program is redistributed without the need for execution of an additional license by those parties. 8. License Must Not Be Specific to a Product: the program cannot be licensed only as part of a larger distribution. 9. License Must Not Restrict Other Software: the license cannot insist that any other software it is distributed with must also be open source. 10. License Must Be Technology-Neutral: no click-wrap licenses or other medium-specific ways of accepting the license must be required.

An NDA kinda violates all of these points to make things OSS. Just because you can see the source doesn't mean that it is open source.

Re:No.

[dosymedia]

As long as I can 'Arrange by Penis' I should be able to find everything I need.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

And anyone who criticizes free software is a shill for some proprietary software vendor!

F/OSS sucks!

There. Now where's my check?

Re:No.

[Ash-Fox]

Look at Windows, apparently the fact that Vista hardly runs on current-gen or last-gen hardware isn't a problem.

Vista seems to run fine on current generation hardware. I don't recall Microsoft promoting running Vista on last generation hardware by the way.

Except that you can actually write standard HTML for a default web browser and it would render correctly? Compare that to IE where about every single line of code has to be duplicated to work on it.

And that has nothing to do with having access to the source code of the browser. I will restate the question:

How does having access to the sourcecode of a web browser in OS X make OS X more flexible?

Number 1, easier to port applications to.

I have written numerous cross-platform applications, and it is quite obvious you have no experience with doing so. This has nothing to do with making it easier to port applications to a specific platform. I can even come up with plenty of instances where I had hell with porting things to OS X.

Such as: standardized cross platform OpenGL code that works between Windows, Linux, Solaris would not work on OS X, without special workarounds for buggy drivers and Apple's OpenGL bugs. The state of handling OpenGL on OS X is so bad, that Codeweavers have to specifically write special hacks for each and every game that they support on crossover games for OS X due to the numerous bug issues - They don't have to do this with the Linux port, at all.

The POSIX environment on OS X is broken, I have had so many issues getting pthreads that work fine under Windows with it's POSIX subsystem, Linux the BSDs that it's ridicules that Windows POSIX subsystem does it properly when OS X, which is supposed to be a certified "Unix" environment does not.

Number 2, easier to write applications for if you don't own the OS.

What? A good developer kit makes it easier to write applications for a OS, not OS sourcecode.

As for Samba and etc, if Apple finds a bug that the other developers haven't found yet, it gets fixed both places and vice versa.

Apple has a terrible reputation for fixes. Often, they seem to ignore fixes until some major OS X release that usually requires people to pay for an upgrade. This is especially a huge problem on OS X server - where they can't even package things to work out of the box. Such as packaging the only version of PHP that doesn't work with Squirrel mail that they package by default with the system. Using broken Samba setups etc.

An NDA kinda violates all of these points to make things OSS. Just because you can see the source doesn't mean that it is open source.

I didn't say it was opensource. I said you can get access to the entirety of Windows' sourcecode under NDAs, while you cannot at all with OS X. The only stuff that appears to be opensource in OS X, is the Darwin kernel - which is so terrible nobody wants to use it and why there isn't really a Darwin community. The only other opensource bits in OS X that I can think of are the projects started as opensource in the opensource community that have what some people refer to as 'viral licensing' which prevents Apple from close sourcing the projects.

I really don't see the additional 'flexibility' in OS X over Windows that you claim. Maybe you should give some practical examples?

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I blame you too.

Somebody call the 'Waaaaaahh'mbulance!

Re:No.

[DeepZenPill]

If only government gave us some basic value for our money. Instead we pay taxes and rack up an enormous national debt to finance wars and our representatives' pet projects. The problem isn't limited to just the corporate world. People should demand accountability product/service they receive, whether the provider is private or public.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

If the public were my sister, and her husband were to treat her the way the corporate culture treats consumers, I would tell her to divorce the bastard, or perhaps poison his coffee.

Or be like Sonny from The Godfather and beat the crap out of him.

Re:No.

[Doctor_Jest]

I'm a driver on the Waaaaahmbulance you insensitive CLOD! :-)

Re:No.

[The End Of Days]

What I don't understand is where the expectation that Apple products must be perfect originated. It seems like people like to seize upon the smallest of flaws and turn it into a five hundred word essay on why product X is suitable for nobody at all.

How does this happen? What inspires such inappropriate anti-devotion? It's just a piece of technology.

Re:No.

[PopeRatzo]

Voting Republican is the same as voting Democrat.

This is what your corporate media would have you believe.

Tell you what: Go look at a chart of budget deficits and the national debt over the course of the last 50 years. Now look at the way the chart moves up and down. Now mark the chart according to which party was in power for each year on the chart.

You will see that the Republican party has been responsible for attacks on the middle class and on the overall standard of living for Americans since World War II. It got a lot worse during the Reagan Administration, at which time the Republican party declared all-out war against the middle class, against all social programs and against the operation of government itself. They also decided at that time to attack the one institution that had more to do with the rise of the middle class way of life - the American Labor Movement. Unions were Enemy #1 for Reagan, and it's only gotten worse during GOP administrations since then.

The concentrated corporate ownership of media, the increasing wealth of the energy industry at the expense of the US economy, and an attack on the Constitution have all been hallmarks of Republican administrations.

No, friend, you are wrong if you think there is not a huge difference between voting Republican and voting Democratic in 2008. It's a clever little meme for simple minds who like to puff themselves up to appear smarter than they really are, but it's absolutely false.

Anyone who decides not to vote because "there is no difference between Republican and Democratic" is a very dangerous fool.

Re:No.

[randyleepublic]

Infineon products blow chunks. No surprise here...

Re:No.

[PopeRatzo]

OK, so look at the "basic value" government has given us during the post-WWII period. Evaluate it by which party is in power.

You will find that by every single rational measure, the American people get better "basic value" from Democratic administrations than Republican administrations.

This is not so hard if you really look at the numbers instead of listening to the hollering talking heads on cable TV news. Give it a try, DeepZenPill, you will be surprised.

Re:No.

[Lars T.]

Look at Windows, apparently the fact that Vista hardly runs on current-gen or last-gen hardware isn't a problem.

Vista seems to run fine on current generation hardware. I don't recall Microsoft promoting running Vista on last generation hardware by the way.

So you forgot that Microsoft had to release Vista Stripped Down Version (aka Vista Home Basic) so hardware that was "Vista Capable" could actually run a version of Vista - even if that version didn't have many of the features that were advertised for Vista when these "Vista Capable" PCs were sold? But you are of course right, the hardware was many months old at the time and hardly current.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

No wonder corporations are having such an easy time replacing government in sovereign nations.

If only! After the last century *alone*, where out-of-control governments were responsible for more deaths than any other force -- including natural disaster.

Re:No.

[Gorbag]

They also decided at that time to attack the one institution that had more to do with the rise of the middle class way of life - the American Labor Movement.

That is what the socialist media would have you believe. Tell you what: Go look at the cost of living in states on the east coast where the Dems and unions have been in control for the last 50 years, and compare them to states on the west coast where they haven't. Heck, look at the average cost of health care adjusted for the same net rate of improvement. You will notice that unions and the Democratic party are not quite as helpful as you think they are. Socialization of risk, redistribution of income, disincentives to productive employment and continuous attacks on the US Constitution have all been hallmarks of Democratic administrations since FDR. And folks who vote Democratic are generally of the mindset that they're "entitled" to something. That the government should "take care of them". At least JFK had the sense to say "Ask not what your country can do for you... but what you can do for your country." Unfortunately no voter in modern times has had that little bit of sense, it's all "what's in it for me." Are the Republicans better? Heck no. Both parties support unconstitutional idiocies from the "war on drugs" to imperialistic ambitions. They're both a losing proposition. Anyone interested in elected positions clearly are not qualified for them. And voting only encourages them. No, friend, you are wrong if you think there is a huge difference between voting Republican and voting Democratic in 2008. It's a bit of wool over the eyes to make us all into sheep thinking we're changing the world with a pull of the lever. We're changing things, but always for the worse. The only decent human who ran in the current cycle hasn't got a prayer of being elected, but I'll write him in anyway: Ron Paul.

Re:No.

[ToasterMonkey]

Linux was more stable than the Windows OS's in the past. That is not saying very much.

Of course you're going to reply, "I was talking about the kernel, not OS" and I'll say bullshit, "Linux stability" has ALWAYS, _ALWAYS_ been a direct comparison to Microsoft's current (or even past) OS. Conveniently, other real UNIX systems are left out. Hilarious!

I don't think you, nor ANY Linux enthusiast really want to get into a real Linux stability debate.

Just keep turtling, redefining what a desktop, OS, kernel, is until you find a corner that has no major issues (at least in relation to whomever you see as the current anti-Linux).

All the while, you blame bad hardware, closed specs, NDA's, corporations, whatever you need to to feel secure.

Linux was only "ROCK solid stable" if you never touched it. Don't upgrade the software, don't add hardware. Yah, it was a rock alright.

Re:No.

[Mr2001]

Compare that with Windows where not a single line of code is OSS. If someone felt like it you could easily write a compatible Mac OS clone. Whereas with Windows about every line of code has to be reverse engineered.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but OS X is a lot more than just Darwin, WebKit, and a handful of other open source products. Reverse engineering Cocoa, Quartz, and the Core Everything frameworks is no easier than reverse engineering Win32 and DirectX.

But if you'd like to get started on that compatible Mac OS clone, be my guest. Shouldn't take you more than an afternoon, right? ;)

Re:No.

[Doctor_Jest]

Do you realize that voting either is not GOOD? Did you miss my entire point? They are BOTH parties out to SCREW YOU and enhance THEIR pocketbooks. And for an aside, give a look-see to the historical realities since WWII, and you'll see the equal opportunity destroyers on both sides of the fence. What you fail to realize is that simply because I said both parties were the same, I didn't mean you could vote for either and get what you want. I meant, rather clearly, that BOTH PARTIES are trying to fuck you. So DON'T VOTE FOR EITHER. It's your power. People who believe that the Labor movement was somehow (post Depression) worth much of anything but hush money and financing the richest 1% is delusional and a very dangerous fool who's blinders happen to be stuck too close to "Air America" and Chomsky.

Get a little perspective, stop spouting the "proletariat" line and realize that we are not going to change a THING until we realize EVERYONE who is in power at this moment IS AGAINST US. Obama, McCain, Clinton... THEY are all TOO rich to give a shit about the American people. Anyone who doesn't see that is a very dangerous fool, my friend.

Re:No.

[PopeRatzo]

That is what the socialist media would have you believe.

If you think that any of the major media outlets in the United States are in any way "socialist", you are too stupid for me to talk to.

Re:No.

[PopeRatzo]

Obama, McCain, Clinton... THEY are all TOO rich to give a shit about the American people.

If Barack Obama is "too rich to give a shit about the American people" then why did he have to grow up living on food stamps?

He didn't get "rich" until about 2 years ago when he wrote a very popular book. Before that he was about as "rich" as I am, and I promise you that I am not too rich to care about the American people. In fact, I care enough about you to take the time to write this response.

People who believe that the Labor movement was somehow (post Depression) worth much of anything but hush money and financing the richest 1%

That is so stupid I'm surprised your computer didn't blow up as you typed it.

Re:No.

[Doctor_Jest]

You really do have a comprehension problem, don't you? Do you realize ANYTHING about the labor movement besides what you got from PBS? Apparently not. How much do the heads of the big labor unions get for compensation? They doing it for free? How much bargaining power have the labor unions had since the implementation of sane labor laws? How much arrogance has the union shown in a global economy that every, and I mean EVERY new venture avoids the albatross of unions that cripples Detroit and further subjugates "union" workers to dues-paying homeless people. Don't bother answering any of these, because your opinions are about as useful as nipples on men. And my credentials? I deal with unions almost DAILY. The Aerospace Workers Union. Corrupt... pathetic, and not even CLOSE to having their members' interests in mind even at the collective bargaining table.

Growing up living on food stamps doesn't mean that they aren't NOW rich. He's not 5 anymore, is he? Just because he grew up poor doesn't mean he remembers, cares, or even has a clue about being poor now. And your logic will work for McCain too... he wasn't rich until he married a beer baron. Rich has a way of moving people OUT of their roots, and the politics of america favor those who are filthy rich. Kerry, Edwards (ambulance chaser), Reagan (actor), Bush (oil)... need I go on? Everyone's bought and sold on Capitol Hill and it doesn't matter if your mascot's an Ass or an elephant... THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOU. AND THEY NEVER WILL. Is that so hard to see? Apparently so in your case.

So in closing, since you believe that everything anyone says, facts or otherwise, is stupid, there's no convincing you to get the log from your own eye and learn basic courtesy in a discussion. But, like all internet trolls, you feel compelled to be superior to everyone at the other end of your screen and for that, I'm sorry.

One day you'll grow up, learn to discern fact from fallacy, and realize that what you spout now is about as juvenile as humanly possible. Your logic is so flawed, Socrates' tomb just blew up.

And before you pot-kettle-black me, realize that the facts about the two-party system are solid. The mere inference that you don't believe them doesn't make them less true.

If you're so sanctimonious and believe in the american people, why don't YOU run for office? If the Democratic party is indeed the "poor man's friend", you should have no trouble getting to the top spot. That is, unless the filthy rich Howard Dean doesn't cock-block you.

I would suggest a few books about the growth and corruption in organized labor, but you probably wouldn't read them anyway. It'd spoil your panglossian view of the universe.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? So in Finder, View->Keep Arranged By->Kind doesn't work for you?

Strictly speaking, that's not what the parent asked for. When arranged by kind, Finder files folders under 'F' - or whichever letter of the alphabet the localized word for folder falls under. In many cases that's not topmost.

Re:No.

[El Icaro]

I'm pretty certain both Microsoft and Apple do an assload of testing. Vista might be full of bugs, but i've seen it run (after a lot of work, admittedly) on every 2001+ machine in my building.

Yeah, I'm sure you can tell me stories where it didn't run.

What I'm more surprised about is the fact that Apple, *owning* Infineon, didn't do something about this earlier.

Re:No.

[El Icaro]

So your problem is sorting the files in Finder? There is an option called "Sort by > Kind".

Linux users, do the same too when facing criticism, btw.

Re:No.

[Nefarious Wheel]

Conceptually correct, perhaps. But I remember reading a wealthy auto journalist's view to the contrary some time ago; he reported that after returning from a long trip to Europe, the Ferrari was the only exotic in his stable that would start right away.

From my iphone 3G

[Frion]

I have no idea what connection issues they are tal

Re:From my iphone 3G

[Ethanol-fueled]

Annoyingly, the same iPhone 3G glitch also sends the messages right before they are dropped.

Shit

[alexborges]

I knew i shouldve waited.

Again bitten by Jobs's first-out-the-door gizmo.

I was also the proud owner of a tibook 400... yeah, the one that spontaneusly broke appart from heat due to the "TI" part (although it did look cool at first).

I guess some of us will never learn.

Re:Shit

[Anonymous Coward]

It's pretty simple to get over. Stop joining the hype-wagon whenever the company releases a new product, that means don't follow the news every time Job's jerks off to his own press. The fanboys and paid astroturfers get suckers into a frenzy for $PRODUCT every time.

Try this (but don't pull the trigger!) Go over to avsforum and chose a manufacturer of TVs. Look at panasonic or pioneer if you like plasmas, sony, samsung or sharp if you think LCD are you thing. Look at the hysteria over up-n-coming $MODEL. Come back daily and keep up to date on that model. Within two or three weeks you'll be on the verge of pre-ordering it. At this point, delete that bookmark and don't comeback for a couple of months. The same thread(s) will be full of owners pissed off with the issues of this round of models, full of fanboys pretending the problems don't exist exhibiting cognitive dissonance, and hot prospects asking owners about $MODEL. As soon as real owner tells it like it is, they'll be jumped on by those that can't bear to think they didn't get the $BEST_THING_EVER. It's really funny.

Of course, at some point you will desire a new product, or what you have craps up. After watching a few rounds of the above, you'll know you can pick up the $BEST_THING_EVER a few months after initial release for a fraction of what people paid. And guess what? Your friends will be just as impressed by whatever it is, and probably don't follow model numbers anyway.

Re:Shit

[maynard]

My TiBook 800 has lasted a good six years and is still ... sorta running. I use it primarily to display streamed music and video. And it's still useful as a backup laptop in case the new one gets borked.

And I have to say that in Boston I've had no trouble getting good 3G reception on my iPhone. However, I've had plenty of other bad things to say about that purchase. Jailbroken, the iPhone is just yummy. But out of the box, it's pretty worthless. And the App store is just pathetic. Good luck returning an app that doesn't work. Hell, good luck figuring out which apps work without first buying the damn thing. And don't talk to me about reviews - most of them read like they were written by the application software sales staff.

Until Apple gets some quality control in there, I'm not buying another iPhone app.

Re:Shit

[roc97007]

> I knew i shouldve waited.

Bwaaaa ha ha. My company has adopted the iPhone, but I talked a co-worker into requesting one so I could have his nearly-new Treo 680 to replace my elderly falling-apart 650. That should get me through the next year of iPhone bug fixes, capacity increases and inevitable price drops.

Oh, and I'd like to personally thank each and every one of you for being unpaid quality assurance. (Evil laugh, rubs hands) by the time I'm ready for one, it'll be bug free! Well, maybe not bug free exactly, well, perhaps not bug free at all, but at least it'll be reasonably usable. Maybe. Hopefully. Or maybe Palm will come up with something innovative in the meantime... no... what was I thinking... it's more likely that the iPhone will be bug free.

Re:Shit

[wumpus188]

That's the problem - Apple just doesn't have enough resources to do app QA/testing that they're pretending to be doing. They are obviously cannot keep up - problem reports take a *week* just to get a standard canned reply "we're looking at problem and will contact you soon". I'd say - lift the NDA, loose the grip and let the market sort the crap out.

Re:Shit

[tyrione]

That's the problem - Apple just doesn't have enough resources to do app QA/testing that they're pretending to be doing. They are obviously cannot keep up - problem reports take a *week* just to get a standard canned reply "we're looking at problem and will contact you soon". I'd say - lift the NDA, loose the grip and let the market sort the crap out.

Man you're kneck deep in crap. For a company of over 20,000 employees they do have the resources and are even hiring. Apply if you want to help. Otherwise, keep swimming in cocka.

Re:Shit

[Free the Cowards]

Except that the vast majority of those employees are just drones who work at their retail store. The people who actually make products are surprisingly few compared to other similar high-tech companies.

And yeah, they're hiring in the sense that they're putting out job offers. But they're having a tough time actually hiring people, what with how they overwork people to death and don't pay very well.

Re:Shit

[Professor_UNIX]

In your defense, this IS the second generation iPhone so I wouldn't expect this kind of issue. They should've had 3G models in testing since before the original iPhone EDGE model was released. Problems like this are inexcusable.

Re:Shit

[alexborges]

The question is: for the kind of cash they pull in, and their sheer size, one would expect SOME SORT OF DECENCY in the design of their shit, specially if its the second out the door.

Re:Shit

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Problem is, my Treo 600 is starting to get a bit flaky, and the syncing no longer works properly without a lot of mucking about. The iPhone is the only phone that I would consider replacing it with, because every other single phone I've seen, researched, and used has a crap interface compared to the iPhone. It's not like buying a big new TV. The question for me is if it's worth baring with my current broken set-up until this iPhone problem is fixed, or get an iPhone and accept this possible problem as a small trade-off. Stop putting everyone in the same boat.

Firmware?

[cleatsupkeep]

Can this be fixed by a firmware update? It said something about the stack which made me think firmware, or is it just shoddy hardware?

Re:Firmware?

[Anonymous Coward]

wireless firmware doesn't just get released. It must be approved by carriers and then end governing bodies. This is a pita and chip makers are reluctant to move on it.

Re:Firmware?

[Serious Callers Only]

Can this be fixed by a firmware update? It said something about the stack which made me think firmware, or is it just shoddy hardware?

Can this hypothetical technical flaw, in an unknown chipset which the iPhone may possibly use, be fixed in in a possible future firmware update?

Possibly.

However a story from a cnet journalist quoting a financial analyst on a technical problem where they're not even sure of the chipset in question is not very credible. I haven't heard of any reception problems on other sites - I wonder how widespread they are?

Re:Firmware?

[Anonymous Coward]

It it's a problem in the UMTS stack - yes. If it's a problem with the chipset itself...maybe. If it's a problem with a channel being desensed...maybe. There are alot of reasons for dropped calls and TFA has no real info other than guessing.

Re:Firmware?

[cleatsupkeep]

I guess I jumped the gun a little. Thanks for the information.

Re:Firmware?

[carbona]

Speaking for myself, 3G reception problems have been pretty widespread on two separate 3G iPhones (I returned the first one because the vibrate switch was nearly impossible to toggle). I'm in Los Angeles, in and around Hollywood and the west side, and 3G reception goes from one bar to full bars and then back down to EDGE on a regular basis, even when my location has not changed but a few feet.

Having said, I have not had a dropped call and voice quality seems to be at least as good as my 1st gen iPhone, but it's frustrating using a data application that is slower than molasses, only to discover that I'm back on an EDGE connection. This was with both 2.0 and 2.01 firmwares.

I'm hoping the article is mistaken and this can be solved with firmware update.

Re:Firmware?

[Belial6]

The iPhone that I got from work has really crappy 3G reception. I just assumed that the terrible reception was par for the course. Of course, I've also had the phone stall on me for 30 or 40 seconds at a time, had the browser app crash numerous times, and had one full phone crash that required a hard reboot. I'm not saying that the phone is crap, but there is definitely a wide margin for improvement.

Re:Firmware?

[Serious Callers Only]

That's interesting. I haven't seen any dropped calls as yet on mine, or signal problems, it's 3G all the time. It may depend a lot on the network AT&T has in your area I guess.

Seems odd if it is an iPhone specific problem that complaints haven't been more widespread. Suppose the way to test it would be to put the same sim in a different 3G phone when experiencing problems with the iPhone and see how it works? I'm sure there was a time when journalists did that kind of testing before writing an article, instead of filling it with easy speculation.

Re:Firmware?

[HairyCanary]

That's exactly the same behavior a friend of mine has with his 3G phone. Not an iPhone. So perhaps it's just that 3G service is flaky, or AT&T sucks, or whatever.

Re:Firmware?

[toleraen]

That's funny, my phone has had around 40 radio firmware updates released world-wide in the last two years...at least 4 which have been released specifically for AT&T. Voice and signal quality, data speeds and battery life just keep getting better with each release.

Re:Firmware?

[omnipresentbob]

RTFS:

Some people will not experience these problems as it is only in areas where the radio signal weakens that the immaturity of the stack really shows.

Re:Firmware?

[dal20402]

For me it's dependent on location.

I live in Washington, DC. My iPhone 3G has nearly flawless 3G reception with very fast data rates in DC.

Recently I've traveled to Albany, NY; Seattle; and Portland, OR. The reception was very good in Albany, although I dropped back to EDGE a couple of times. It was excellent in (north and downtown) Seattle, with no problems.

But since arriving in Portland I've had problems nonstop. I've had 3G calls drop; web pages stop loading over a 3G connection; and "No Service" instead of an EDGE connection when the 3G connection is lost. It was so bad, I turned 3G off and won't turn it back on until I leave Portland. Fortunately, I have WiFi in most of the places I'm visiting here.

Re:Firmware?

[Rudolf]

However a story from a cnet journalist quoting a financial analyst on a technical problem where they're not even sure of the chipset in question is not very credible.

I agree with your comments, but it triggered a question. Why isn't the chipset known? Hasn't someone opened up an iPhone and looked at what chips are in it?

Re:Firmware?

[socsoc]

It gets better for you, but how many of your friends install firmware updates to their cell phones? Most people think I am crazy for updating firmware on my phone (and honestly, part of that is to get features that my carrier decided the handset doesn't need). At least Apple has the ability to push those radio improvement updates to the handset. That may be a blessing that the other manufacturers haven't capitalized on. I do own Moto's crappy software, but I don't know anyone else who does, perhaps a usb cable and a software CD should have been included in all the phones.

Re:Firmware?

[toleraen]

Well, it's a WinMo device, so odds are somewhat decent that its owners have installed ActiveSync (required to update firmware). Also, several months back AT&T announced their upgrade from WinMo 5 to WinMo 6.0 for the phone. Downloading and installing WinMo 6.0 via AT&Ts upgrade also updated to one of the most recent radio stacks.

Obviously that doesn't mean everyone rushed out to download the latest rom. But I'd bet that the percentage of WinMo owners that upgrade their firmware is a good amount greater than owners of 'feature phones'.

Re:Firmware?

[drseuss9311]

i'll bite: what phone do you have?

Re:Firmware?

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

Suppose the way to test it would be to put the same sim in a different 3G phone when experiencing problems with the iPhone and see how it works?

In the comments section of an overseas article regarding this problem, one user writes:

I have an iPhone 3g with Optus. I have done comparisons using my new Optus sim card both in the iPhone and my previous Sony Ericsson 630i. At home with the iPhone I get 1 bar of 3g reception, and often no service. In the same spot, with the same sim card in the Sony Ericsson I get 4/5 bars of 3g reception. So obviously its not bad Optus reception alone.

This isn't an AT&T problem, it isn't an isolated problem, this is something being experienced by disappointed iphone users all over the world.

Oh well, its hard to feel much sympathy for early adopter suckers who fell for some bling & a slick marketing campaign.

Re:Firmware?

[phantomfive]

Probably. At least, I've worked on projects where the wireless modems had to be updated wirelessly over the air. My guess is it is just some issue switching between towers or something like that. But who knows. Frankly I don't even care.

Re:Firmware?

[FredFnord]

Another way to test it might hypothetically be to turn off 3G (thus putting it on 2.5G) and see if it still reproduces?

-fred

Re:Firmware?

[Serious Callers Only]

Oh well, its[sic] hard to feel much sympathy for early adopter suckers who fell for some bling & a slick marketing campaign.

This kind of bullshit seems to roll off the tongue of Apple detractors like yourself. I guess you love wallowing in the feeling of superiority over these superficial, duped mac/iphone users? Strange that you feel the need to impute spurious reasons for buying it to them.

I know I didn't buy it for those reasons, but because the UI on every other phone I've looked at is a crappy, ill-thought out train-wreck, that and the iPhone does quite a lot of things well in a small package. There are a few things that aren't up to par (camera, ebooks), but that's still better than other phones, in my opinion. Don't really mind if you disagree for valid reasons though, I'm sure it's not for everyone.

I haven't been disappointed in the least with the signal strength on O2; if there is a problem with it in some countries though, I hope they do get it sorted out, I'd be annoyed if it was dropping calls - maybe it's a problem with some phones? I don't think much of this article however as it's full of uninformed speculation and reads more like scaremongering.

Re:Firmware?

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

I haven't been disappointed in the least with the signal strength on O2;

If you'd read the article, you'd know that the problem manifests at low signal strength. The fact that it works well for you in (I'm guessing) South East England is not surprising.

Re:Firmware?

[lazy_playboy]

Mine has been much better since the upgrade to 2.0.1

Re:Firmware?

[Serious Callers Only]

If you'd read the article, you'd know that the problem manifests at low signal strength.

That's in the summary, not the article (which I did read), and frankly it's just a get-out clause so he can later backtrack. At low signal strength this sort of problem occurs in lots of other phones as well - that's what happens when you lose the 3G signal. So this could be down to just bad service from AT&T/Optus, or a fault with the way the iPhone handles low signal for 3G (as he assumes), or a fault with only some peoples' phones. Without proper investigation, it's impossible to say, and no, the link to one forum post you quoted before does not constitute proper investigation. Unfortunately Apple are not inclined to investigate this kind of thing, because they'd rather hush it up and quietly release a patch if it is their fault, but to talk as if we already know what the problem is is misleading.

If it's a problem with all the phones across the world, funny that it only happens on certain networks, for certain people, no?

Re:Firmware?

[socsoc]

True, I was thinking more of dumb phones and forgot about smart phones...

Re:Firmware?

[toleraen]

HTC Hermes

Re:Firmware?

[drseuss9311]

ty

Re:Firmware?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can this hypothetical technical flaw, in an unknown chipset which the iPhone may possibly use, be fixed in in a possible future firmware update?

"All I know is my gut says maybe"

that's ok

[Colin Smith]

I guess some of us will never learn.

Not your fault, it's genetic.

 

Re:that's ok

[alexborges]

Now I wont be able to sleep.

Re:that's ok

[autocracy]

Now I wont be able to sleep.

That's ok, that's genetic too.

Re:that's ok

[Sponge Bath]

Not your fault, it's genetic.

Kids today! What ever happened to blaming it on society?

Re:that's ok

[Gilmoure]

GTA4 made me buy new Apple stuff! (and fire bomb a car)

Re:that's ok

[omnipresentbob]

Not your fault, it's genetic.

Kids today! What ever happened to blaming it on society?

We evolved.

Re:that's ok

[Shivetya]

I should have never listened to her, she should have known Steve was a snake

~ Adam

Re:that's ok

[FredFnord]

You catch it from your kids.

-fred

Re:that's ok

[alexborges]

+1 hilarious

Infineon

[xpuppykickerx]

more like Inferior.

Don't blame 3G.....

[Anonymous Coward]

The dropped calls, service interruptions, and abrupt network switches experienced by iPhone 3G users reminded Windsor of similar complaints five years ago, when 3G phones were first launched in Europe.

It reminds me of ATT...... I have had the same issues no matter what ATT phone I've used

It's the antenna

[jpmorgan]

Apple might know a thing or two about industrial design, but they don't know anything about microwave engineering. The phone has a very badly designed antenna.

This is also one cause of the short battery life, since the phone has to broadcast at high power levels to make up for the poor gain. Talking on the iPhone is like sticking a microwave oven to your face.

Re:It's the antenna

[Anonymous Coward]

battery life? As far as I know the iPhone pretty much beats all other 3G phones on battery life (whoops, scratch that. 3 Blackberrys beat the iPhone by a couple minutes.)

Re:It's the antenna

[Anonymous Coward]

Poor gain? An ideal cell phone antenna would be an omni which has zero gain. It's possible they have a poor SWR, but either way, the radiated power isn't going to be larger than needed to reach the tower.

Re:It's the antenna

[erroneus]

Can you substantiate the claim that iPhone transmits at a much higher power level than a typical phone? I have always been somewhat concerned about phone radiation, but so far, not enough to stop using them.

Re:It's the antenna

[Colin Smith]

As far as I know the iPhone pretty much beats all other 3G phones on battery life

There you go, you solved it. They're skimping on the juice.

 

Re:It's the antenna

[Anonymous Coward]

I have always been somewhat concerned about phone radiation, but so far, not enough to stop using them.

Hee hee hee..."I've always been a little concerned, not enough to actually read about the issue and decide if it's bullshit or not, I mean, it's only brain cancer, but anyway I just keep using them."

If only all of us could skip through life with such merry apathy.

Re:It's the antenna

[somethinghollow]

I may be horribly naive, but I was under the impression that the FCC checked things like output of devices as part of the approval process, which the iPhone passed. I'm not saying it's better than any other device, but it seems to have met some standard level of safe output. (Conspiracy theorists need not reply.)

Re:It's the antenna

[outZider]

The iPhone has a larger capacity battery than many of those models. There's also not one single Nokia model on that list, and the N95 outlasts the iPhone easily.

Re:It's the antenna

[Sockatume]

I would've said that's pretty damn counterintuitive, but it seems it's true. Actually it compares favourably to the 2G talk-time I get on my own phone, a bunch of 1998-era features running on a huge smartphone battery. I wonder if Apple should be emphasising that more, I had assumed the iPhone was in the charge-me-every-day club.

Re:It's the antenna

[Anonymous Coward]

The phone has a very badly designed antenna.

And you know this because? Oh, who cares about facts, let's make something up!

Re:It's the antenna

[acecamaro666]

mmmm....cooked face....

Re:It's the antenna

[ferat]

I sure hope it doesn't have what is considered good battery life compared to other phones. I have to charge mine twice a day.

Assuming I don't fiddle with it at work at all (beyond the occasional checking to see what meeting it is reminding me about), I'm at 30-40% battery life when I get home. If I use it to check mail, or play music, or god forbid talk on it, I'm lucky to be at 15-20% battery life left when I get home.

My battery lasts maybe 12 hours under normal usage, less if I'm doing a lot with it.

Re:It's the antenna

[jpmorgan]

Any cell phone you can buy will meet regulatory requirements, including maximum SAR (specific absorption rate). However maximum is not typical or average, and the iPhone operates at average power levels much higher than you'd get from, say, a Motorola handset.

Re:It's the antenna

[wumpus188]

No, an ideal phone antenna would be 5/8 vertical which usually has 3-4 dBi gain. That would save quite a bit of battery but ruin the whole esthetics :)

Re:It's the antenna

[Anonymous Coward]

source?

Re:It's the antenna

[PitaBred]

Sounds like it's time for a new battery. Or if it's a Motorola Q, just throw the piece of shit out. You'll thank me later. My wife had one of those damn things, and she replaced it with a T-Mobile Dash. The only thing she misses about it is that Verizon's data is a bit faster than the EDGE service on T-Mobile.

Re:It's the antenna

[Anonymous Coward]

The battery lasts for almost 2 days if you switch 3G off when you don't need it. They gave you the option for that very reason.

Re:It's the antenna

[Kagura]

If you have less-than-optimal tower coverage, you will be burning far more battery just carrying it in your pocket all day. I was living with between two and zero bars for the past two weeks, and I was down to 30% battery by the end of the day barely using it. Now that I'm back in the city, I can go a week under similar circumstances without requiring a recharge.

Re:It's the antenna

[Anonymous Coward]

source?

Sources can be discovered on Google.

It just works.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry... Apple says "It just works." so obviously, no one is experiencing these things and it's all a bunch of lies spread by Microsoft.

Who the hell is Richard Windsor...

[calstraycat]

...and what qualifications does he possess to comment on the possible cause of the alleged iPhone reception issues?

Seriously. This story is being widely distributed, but I have yet to see anyone ask about his credentials. Is he an electrical engineer with expertise in the design of cellular technology?

As far as I can tell, he's some financial analyst. So why would anyone consider him a credible source? Since when are the speculations of a financial analyst regarding the rather esoteric realm of RF engineering considered valid.

Am I missing something? Does someone know about his background?

Re:Who the hell is Richard Windsor...

[Bender_]

Yep, now we have analysts predicting and solving engineering problems. What's next?

Re:Who the hell is Richard Windsor...

[Bender_]

Am I missing something? Does someone know about his background?

Probably his main background is that he works for a competitor of Infineon. Why would he single out a third party supplier otherwise? Even if it was a broken part, it would still be Apples fault to design it in.

Re:Who the hell is Richard Windsor...

[girasquid]

Windows 7?

Re:Who the hell is Richard Windsor...

[pete-classic]

Appeal to authority never loses it's appeal.

-Peter

Re:Who the hell is Richard Windsor...

[hobbit]

As far as I can tell, he's some financial analyst. So why would anyone consider him a credible source? ... Am I missing something?

Must be new here... yet UID says not... does not compute! [head explodes]

Re:Who the hell is Richard Windsor...

[Anonymous Coward]

Appeal to authority never loses it's appeal.

It's its, and that was not an appeal to authority, or even an ad hominem attack (presumably that's what you meant), it was pointing out that the probability of a financial analyst knowing anything about technical subjects approaches zero, and his argument (which is content-free in any case) should be approached with caution.

Re:Who the hell is Richard Windsor...

[purpleque]

It's OK. He stayed at a Holiday Inn when he researched this issue.

Re:Who the hell is Richard Windsor...

[Anonymous Coward]

If a financial analyst and a nerd with a Ph.D in EE or CS is talking technical things to you, who would you trust?

The financial analyst! Of-fucking-course! He's richer and so he's automatically more credible! Damn those stupid Ph.Ds who can't make a dime and whine all day. Do you even know why you nerds are all living in the basement after so many years? You guys are useless! Just yesterday a financial analyst said I can combine the amazing power of cloud computing, mobile web 2.0, semantic web and social networking to professionally fashion interdependent products in order that we may seamlessly restore unique deliverables because that is what the customer expects! And after I've paid him I can instantly feel my customers getting happier! Who are those whining nerds who can't get anything done? Fuck off.

goddammit

[Profane MuthaFucka]

can you iPhone people just ATH and drive?

Refund anyone?

[psiberia]

Do you think service providers are going to refund?

You are paying for a service and a phone which is faulty. Under a contract, does this mean they are failing to proving service and a owner could leave the contract?

I know myself, I only use the phone for a few numbers and they have all dropped no matter when I used the phone thus far...

So I'm not crazy

[colin_n]

I have noticed a lot more dropped calls on the iPhone 3g. Between the poorer battery life, the dropped calls, and the inability to unlock the sim, the upgrade feels like a downgrade from my old iPhone.

Re:So I'm not crazy

[Piranhaa]

From the issues there, it seems like more of an 'upgrade' to your old iPhone.. I know if I was getting a GSM phone, I'd get the first gen iPhone. I know quite a few people up here, in Canada even, that have one and has never caused them headaches.

Re:So I'm not crazy

[Anonymous Coward]

The 3g iphone just came out to satisfy some crazy horde that couldn't think of not using a 3g radio set.

Anyone with any brains could look at the specs (that's what I did) and tell that the battery life was going to be worse.

I already have an iphone, and the battery is marginal enough. I didn't need worse battery life. And I fail to see how 3g helps anything, as even on a wireless network page rendering is still slow.

3g has some minor advantages, but I just wasn't willing to trade battery life for them. My original iphone works just fine.

3g on the original iphone was rejected because of battery life issues. In my opinion, it should have stayed rejected. It was just stupid pressuring by tech geeks that got the 3g iphone released before the technology was really practical.

Re:So I'm not crazy

[MojoStan]

So I'm not crazy

I have noticed a lot more dropped calls on the iPhone 3g. Between the poorer battery life, the dropped calls

I just read a better article from Tuesday's San Francisco Chronicle that shows you're not crazy:

• "Shadow side of iPhone 3G's blockbuster success"

From the article:

• "I was driving down Folsom Street in San Francisco and I got a dropped call 10 times. I get dropped calls just standing in one place"
• Yarbrough's complaints stem from spotty phone reception due to the phone's 3G wireless technology. He said when the phone is set to ride on the faster 3G network, the signal often fluctuates and drops calls even though it should be able to revert to a slower wireless technology called Edge.

  He's taken to turning off his phone's 3G connection when making phone calls and relying on the Edge technology to maintain his conversations.

• Kevin Karkada, a 29-year-old Danville software consultant, shares many of the same complaints about reception. But his biggest concern is battery consumption, which he said often leaves him with very little juice by the early evening.

  He's also taken to turning off 3G, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and e-mail syncing just to ensure a strong charge throughout the day.

Re:So I'm not crazy

[Per Wigren]

You're forgetting that in Europe, 3G is pretty much a requirement for a phone such as this one as it's heavily relying on internet access. Personally I'm waiting until the next generation before getting one, or if the competition has caught up, a competitor.

Schadenfreude

[Alsee]

Good. I hope Infineon goes friking bankrupt and dies.
They are one of the manufacturers of Trusted Platform Modules.
That puts them right near the top of my shit-list.

-

Re:Schadenfreude

[Anonymous Coward]

As a competitor to Infinion, I second your comment :).

In all seriousness, first gen designs rarely go as planned. I'm an electronic designer and have had my fair share of early run issues pop up. Things that don't work even when you meet the specs requested by the customer.

Re:Schadenfreude

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but then what does that say about Apple for using their chipset?

Re:Schadenfreude

[Anonymous Coward]

With Infineon's history of partially working chipsets maybe it's a good thing they're making TPM modules.

Re:Schadenfreude

[Phybertekie]

I have an Infineon TPM in my Toshiba but I thought it meant Toilet Paper Module, I feel so dumb now. I thought thats what you meant when saying Infineon makes crappy products. No wonder why wiping my butt with a laptop felt so wierd.

Re:Schadenfreude

[learningtree]

I can see your point. But just for your information, Infineon is one of the most innovative companies in the VLSI market, with some very good products in the communications and automotive domain.
As for the ethical issues associated with Trusted Platform Modules, pretty much every VLSI company (Freescale, STMicroelectronics, TI etc) has products catering to this domain.

Re:Schadenfreude

[walter_f]

Even more annoyingly, Infineon found companies to sell these Trusted Platform Modules to.

Apple was among those companies.

Nowadays, there's no need for separate Trusted Platform Modules on mainboards any more. Intel started to integrate TPM functionality into their processors directly some time ago.

Re:Schadenfreude

[IamTheRealMike]

What's so bad about a TPM? You realise they ship disabled, right? You have to go into the BIOS to enable them.

Re:Schadenfreude

[Alsee]

What's so bad about a TPM?

The short answer is the fact that they are explicitly designed to secure the computer against the owner.

The TPM technical specification explicitly addresses the owner as an enemy in discussing chip security requirements to secure the system against potential attack vectors by the owner.

You realise they ship disabled, right?

Yes. I am a programmer and I have read the 332 page TCPA Main TCG Architecture v1_1b.pdf technical specification from cover to cover. I am well aware of all of the myths and facts of Trusted Computing. I am intimately familiar with the technical capabilities and mechanisms of the TPM.

The fact that the specification suggests that they should be shipped in a disabled state is irrelevant. They are still designed to consider the owner to be the enemy. They are still designed to be secure against the owner, and when activated to secure the computer against the owner.

And more importantly the fact that they may be shipped initially disabled is completely irrelevant because activating them will become cooercive if they become common. If you "decline" to activate the Trust chip you get increasingly locked out of everything. You get locked out of any Trust-enabled software, you get locked out of any Trust-sealed file and file types, you are unable to read trusted e-mail or other documents, you get locked out of any Trust-activated internet connection protocols and even locked out of any Trust-utilizing websites. But beyond that, the Trusted Computing Group has created Trusted Network Connect (TNC). What TNC is deny a network connection if you decline to activate your Trust chip. And even if you do activate the chip, TNC denies you a network connection if your system software is unapproved, denies you a network connection if you are not running the mandated approved system software. Right now TNC is being advertised to corporations to lock down their internal networks. However several years ago the Presidential Advisor for Cyberspace Security gave a keynote speech at a Washington D.C. World Summit and called on ISPs to forcibly impose exactly this sort of system as a condition for internet access (to protect us against terrorist cyber attack of course). Obviously ISP's can't just impose such a system today - but Microsoft's intent was for the TMP to be a a motherboard requirement for all Vista compatible PCs, and presumably they still intend a motherboard TMP requirement for the next release of Windows. ALL new PCs would come with a TMP installed by default, whether you want it or not. And if ALL new PCs ship with this chip, and the typical replacement cycle of PCs is just a few years, then it doesn't take many years at all for close to 100% of the PC install base to have these chips on board. And yes, at that point it does become possible for ISPs to make them mandatory. ISPs would merely say old obsolete non-compliant hardware is "no longer supported".

That of course is a worst case scenario. However activating the TMP becomes extremely cooercive long before you get locked off of the internet for declining. The Trust system can and WILL easily lock you out of many lesser things long before anything gets anywhere near that doomsday scenario.

-----

Note that I am an extremely reasonable person and I have extremely reasonable and minimal requirements to drop my opposition to TMPs completely. All I want is the mere option to buy otherwise identical chips that are NOT locked against the owner, that do NOT lock the computer against the owner. All I want is the option for people to be able to buy systems where they owner IS permitted to get the Master Key locking their computer.

I am going to get technical for a moment. If you know TMP technical details, great. If you don't, you can just gloss over it. My example suggestion, one of many possible solutions, would be to permit people to get a printed copy of their chip PrivEKey when they buy their system, and to enable the chip to export the

Odd

[slimjim8094]

I've been getting better reception on my 3G iPhone than I had on my Razr (also 3g)

Battery life is pretty crappy, have to recharge it every night. But that's all I need. I think that has more to do with the big honking screen than any chipset issue.

I have noticed that the signal indicator likes to sit at around 1 bar, but it's a bit deceptive because it works fine for a while (feels like empty on a car... still goes for a while anyways)

I know an anecdote isn't true for everyone... maybe he's in a bad signal area? Maybe he has a defective phone? I haven't seen what he's talking about.

Re:Odd

[Anonymous Coward]

Just switch 3g off when if it's just sitting around. You don't need 3g for just a phone call.

Re:Odd

[slimjim8094]

Or even airplane mode.

Having said that, 3G gives much improved (read: noticeable) voice quality. It sounds a lot less 'noisy' and a lot more like a land line. 3G isn't as much of a battery sink as you'd first think, and the benefits usually outweigh the costs.

Re:Odd

[Phroggy]

Note that in airplane mode, nobody can call you, thus defeating much of the purpose of having a phone in the first place.

Why is this a problem?

[ForestGrump]

AT&T has the best network around - More bars in more places. So this flaw should never be visible to the end user...unless AT&T has been lying to me.

Grump

Re:Why is this a problem?

[Sponge Bath]

...unless AT&T has been lying to me.

As an ATT stock holder, I thank you for believing those lies.
Thank you, come again.

Re:Why is this a problem?

[Bryansix]

Yes, they have been. They may get more bars in Maine or Wisconsin but where the vast majority of the people live on the coasts the reception is shit. I can't get decent reception at my own house and I'm literally 5 blocks from a major freeway. I also get shitty reception in my office which is right off the 405 and 55 and next to a freakin' airport! ATT sucks and worst of all is their horrible customer service. Also note they just raised SMS messaging fees so it now costs more to message someone on your same family plan then it does to mail them a letter.

Re:Why is this a problem?

[compro01]

"More bars in more places."="Our network was designed by drunks."

Re:Why is this a problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

AT&T has the best network around - More bars in more places. So this flaw should never be visible to the end user...unless AT&T has been lying to me.

Grump

I had far better results with Verizon. My thoughts on AT&T is more bars in none of the places that I'm at.

Re:Why is this a problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

Their reception in LA might suck, but your understanding of the issue is wrong and stupid

Re:Why is this a problem?

[lupine]

As an iphone owner who lives in wisconsin I can assure you that we do not have great service.

The interstates and towns over 7k usually have service, but if you go a few miles out into the countryside there is no signal. US Cellular provides the best comprehensive service in wisconsin.

Re:Why is this a problem?

[krazytekn0]

I'm not saying you do, though you may, but why do people believe there is any relation between the number of "bars" and whether your phone works or not? Seriously am I the only one that's noticed that having 5 bars doesn't mean that my call is any more likely to get through? Maybe it's just the fact that I'm frequently going in and out of service areas and that the cell network wasn't designed with mountains in mind but I have never seen a solid correlation between the number of "bars" and how good of a connection I have. My phone right now where I'm sitting has 5 bars but I just tried to send a text message and it failed. My calls frequently do not connect in certain areas so I know the reception is bad there, but my phone will say 3-5 bars in those areas, it just won't ring or connect a call.

Re:Why is this a problem?

[rwwyatt]

It means using the AT&T network will force you to visit more bars in more places

Re:Why is this a problem?

[dgatwood]

Seriously am I the only one that's noticed that having 5 bars doesn't mean that my call is any more likely to get through?

Oh. A Verizon customer. :-D

But seriously, the bars tells you the strength of the tower signal as seen by your phone. Your phone's transmitter is much weaker, however, and depends on high gain at the tower to detect the signal. It isn't at all unusual in areas with high reflection (e.g. mountains) to find spots where you can see a slight signal from the tower because of constructive interference from multiple reflections but the tower can't detect your signal. That said, if you're seeing five bars and can't dial out, it likely means the tower doesn't have any free frequency/time slots and the cell company needs to deploy additional towers because of too many users in too small an area. Maybe you could gently encourage them to set up a picocell near some major apartment complex or university or junior high school or whatever to reduce the load on the main tower.

Re:Why is this a problem?

[krazytekn0]

Yep verizon, but I think the reflection is what is doing me in based on what you are saying. the 5 bars and no connect thing does not happen in areas where a tower would be operating at capacity. Especially not at the times when I'm in those areas.

Yep

[Anonymous Coward]

Shoulda gone with Qualcomm, they've been doing this stuff since the beginning.

Blind brand devotion

[syousef]

I have zero sympathy for those that buy a technically inferior product without evaluating it because it happens be made by their favourite company (which has never treated the customer right in the first place). If intelligent people choose to become members of the cult of the turtle neck, buy an overpriced technically inferior phone missing features so common they are considered industry standard, and overpay for the usage charges because brand loyalty has driven demand through the roof, nothing is going to protect them from their own stupidity. There's more to a phone than a gimmicky interface more suited to a mp3 player.

Keep your faulty iPhones, I'll stick to my Nokia 6220 classic which I researched to death before buying (and which still has the odd quirk but nothing I can't live with and only one minor bug I wasn't aware of when I bought it). No brand loyalty here by the way. I turned down spending an extra $20/month on an n95 8gb despite some nifty features, because the piece of turd only does USB 1.1. I wanted a phone not a sad gimmick. It seems phones will do everything these days except make voice and video calls properly.

I expect this to be modded flamebait, but everyone that does that knows what I'm saying is true, and I'm certainly not just intending to aggravate people. I'm just sick of intelligent people feeding companies that will turn around and fuck them.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[cowscows]

I think you're overestimating the size of the Apple fanboy market. That crowd certainly exists, but you're going to have a hard time convincing me that everyone who's got an iPhone got it just because it has an Apple logo on the back. That crowd was tapped out in the first couple weeks or so. The iPhone must be offering something to people that's making so many of them spend money on it.

But I'm sorry to interrupt. Please continue telling us all the details of your phone contract so we can fully comprehend how much smarter you are than everyone else.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[Anonymous Coward]

You fall into the common trap of seeing apple's products as technically inferior, assuming technical is all that matters.

I don't have an iphone (or a smartphone at all) but having surfed the web on both I know which one I plan on getting. My research is done, and Apple won.

But you go ahead calling me stupid. I'm not aggravated. I will continue to laugh at people like you though.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[pandrijeczko]

So you're laughing at him because he chooses to stick with his older Nokia 6220 that entirely suits his needs, despite being an older product.

So that means you *do* consider a phone to be a fashion accessory then?

Re:Blind brand devotion

[That's Unpossible!]

Keep your faulty iPhones, I'll stick to my Nokia 6220 classic

Well, I've got an iPhone 3G. The only problem I have with it is I wear the batteries out. If, however, it had as few features as your Nokia 6220, or any of my previous phones, I am sure the batteries would last a very long time, as I wouldn't use it so fucking much!

Good day, chap.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[konohitowa]

No. He was laughing at him for going on an insecure rant wherein his intelligence and self worth are defined by his purchases and are threatened by anyone that deviates from his approved purchases.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[syousef]

I think you're overestimating the size of the Apple fanboy market.

Look at how I've been modded and how you've been modded. Every post I've ever authored here that has been even slightly critical of Apple even as an aside gets modded this way.

That crowd certainly exists, but you're going to have a hard time convincing me that everyone who's got an iPhone got it just because it has an Apple logo on the back. That crowd was tapped out in the first couple weeks or so. The iPhone must be offering something to people that's making so many of them spend money on it.

Do the research. Compare the features to Nokia, Soney Ericson and other large brands. I fail to see how anyone that does an unbiased feature comparison can take a new and unproven phone missing many features considered to be industry standard over something with a proven track record.

But I'm sorry to interrupt. Please continue telling us all the details of your phone contract so we can fully comprehend how much smarter you are than everyone else.

And _I'm_ considered the troll here? Please point to where I said I was smarter than others. I said I was frustrated that smarter people allow themselves to fall into the brand loyalty trap.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[cowscows]

You can't judge the relative worth of different products just by going down a feature checklist. A swiss army knife has many more features than an 8" chef knife, but which one would you rather use to cut up some onions?

And you weren't being critical of Apple, you were being critical of the millions of people who've bought an iPhone. You can't dismiss numbers like that with something as basic as "brand loyalty." All those people aren't going out and handing over hundreds of dollars because the iPhone was shiny enough that it shut their brain off (OK, some are, but not the majority). Their brains are just making decisions based on different priorities than yours.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[syousef]

Please do tell me what your magic iPhone does that my cheaper inferior phone can't do?

Let me give you a list of things that I can do that you can't

Here's are a couple of lists of features you're missing "chap"
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=1849
http://red66.com/2008/06/7-missing-features-from-the-iphone-3g/

Feel free to google for more.

I must admit that of that list my 6220 classic doesn't do wi-fi, and that was disappointing, but not a deal breaker for me especially given the price point.

But go ahead, pay through the nose for it, and enjoy your missing features. A touch screen would be a welcome addition but since I learnt to use a keypad as a child, you can keep your touch screen interface which is probably the only significant advantage (not even worthy of being called an innovation) that the iPhone sports.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[syousef]

Perhaps you can't comprehend plain English but I certainly have no issue with others making an informed purchase, nor do I define my intelligence by my purchases. Go and re-read my post if you truly think otherwise and aren't just trolling.

What I have a problem with is people falling for this brand loyalty crap and therefore pushing up the price and down the quality of phones on the market through pure supply and demand dynamics. Oh and I have a real problem with twits like yourself who can dish out criticism but can't take it, to the point where they have to misrepresent the other person's argument in an attempt to look superior.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[mjwx]

Ironically enough the only feature that the iphone has over the Nokia 6300 and 6500's is a touch screen (if we're comparing the latest Iphone, we may as well use the latest Nokia's).

Re:Blind brand devotion

[syousef]

I should have been clearer I own a 6220 classic (not original version) which is a new phone. I've had it about a month and a half. Nokia has been re-using model numbers which does lead to confusion but the fault was mine for not being clear in the first place.

My phone has:
- Good loudspeaker function
- 5 MP camera (well timed to conincide with the arrival of my first born, though for anything but happy snaps I use a "real" camera)
- MP3 player etc. (again well timed to help soothe the child. I never use to use mp3 playback for much other than ringtones)
- Text to speech (Nifty but gimmicky)
- MMS is no problem (Very useful)
- Video is no problem (Haven't used it much yet)
- 2nd camera for conference (though I haven't switched on video calls with my provider).
- Runs symbian OS apps
- Decent calendar and alarm system (though the lack of ability to copy calendar entries from one date to anther is an irritation)
- Timed profiles. Very important to me as I have to set the phone to silent for meetings but often forget to switch it back if it's not an automatic thing.

For me a phone: First is a phone. No excuses for any missing features for placing and making simple calls and sending text/occasional MMS. Second it's an alarm/calendar for less important stuff like putting out the bins on a Monday night. Third it's a camera for snapshots or unexpected photo opportunities (or copying a whiteboard at work), but not for serious photography. Distant fourth its a music player if I'm bored.

That said I probably spoke a moment too soon. The thing just rebooted accepting a call. It's never done that before. I hope that's a one off glitch, but murphy's law's a bitch.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[phantomfive]

Look at how I've been modded and how you've been modded.

You got modded flamebait because your post was flamebait. You called the iphone technically inferior, said it is missing industry standard features, and implied that the only reason people buy it is because of brand loyalty (and that nothing can protect them from their stupidity).

Your main points weren't what got you modded flamebait. It was the fact that you didn't back any of them up. Is the iphone technically inferior? Is it missing 'industry standard' features? You didn't even bother to list the industry standard features it is missing. Are you lazy, or are you unable to back up your points? Back up your arguments with reality and you will do much better getting the mods to understand you.

Your final point is going to be hard to back up, because it goes against a lot of people's practical experience. I don't have an iPhone (because I prefer very small phones), but it does everything I need it to do well (make phone calls, check email), and it looks cool and is fun to use besides. Frankly I have no idea why you like the Nokia 6220 classic. I suppose it fits your needs, which is fine, but some people want something different. So, personally, since I like the iphone, and I am not caught up in brand loyalty, therefor it is going to be hard to convince me that everyone who has bought an iphone did it because of brand loyalty. In fact, you're going to have to come up with a really good argument. Which may be true, I am open to having my faults pointed out, but I didn't see it from your post. And that is why you were modded flamebait. Because you come across as a man who isn't confident in his facts.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[pandrijeczko]

Firstly, go and take a historical look at the moderation of posts that make a criticism against Apple - you will find that just about all of them (including mine above) are negatively moderated. There can be only one reason for this - namely the Apple crowd feeling threatened by anyone who dares to criticise Apple. Secondly, if we were responsible Capitalists and all made informed decisions before buying anything, then this kind of issue would never happen because any company would be committing financial suicide releasing a product into the marketplace before testing it to the extent it should have been tested. If people are truly happy with their branded products then so be it. But blind brand loyalty turns such items into fashion accessories where display of the logo openly becomes more important than the functionaluty of the product itself. And quite frankly, it's the "brand sheep" who are doing more harm to the rest of us than anyone else - they part with their cash far too easily for nice looking products without considering that also those products may also support the "hidden" features of DRM and vendor lock-in as well. And if and when DRM gets locked into place, then we ALL suffer! So please now excuse me while I continue my fight against you Apple people selling MY rights down Swanee River...

Re:Blind brand devotion

[TedRiot]

Undo moderation..

One thing I remember is missing from the iPhone is the ability to transfer files with bluetooth between the phone and more than 1 computer. I use my E51 often to transfer files between computers and physical locations. No wires thank you.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[Kagura]

When my old, featureless cell phone from early 2005 broke late last year, I read more than ten in-depth reviews for whatever new cell phone I'd be buying. I purposefully avoided the iPhone because I thought it'd be all hype and no substance, but a friend recommended it, so I sought out several positive/negative reviews and finally ended up settling on it.

I never truly thought I'd use each and every feature, but I've found it to be helpful in many circumstances that I'd have been lost in (sometimes literally) had I only had my own phone, or an equally featureless phone.

I have one 80gb iPod video, but otherwise own no Apple products and am very, very distant from the Mac OS. There certainly is a non-Apple fan boy market out there for the iPhone, and I'm one person who falls squarely there.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[pandrijeczko]

I 100% agree with you about informed purchases & the fact that most people don't make informed purchases but blindly believe in advertising or just follow the crowd means that the rest of us are also affected because it makes it much easier to throw untested & overpriced products into the marketplace.

Apple products are marketed very carefully to appeal to certain types of people. These are people who want to go against the mainstream but cannot be bothered to put in the time and effort in the research that you and I would do to find the good value-for-money products for ourselves. Therefore they're prepared to part with lots of money to become members of an exclusive little club - at that level it's no different to Rolls Royce owners or people that flew on Concorde.

Whilst I don't own an iPod (I will not support DRM), it's undeniable that it's a neat gadget that appeals to a lot of people. Unfortunately, it's own popularity has meant that the "Apple club" is no longer that exclusive when it comes to owning an iPod.

Therefore, in order to maintain their exclusivity, that subset of Apple users are therefore forced to queue 24 hours outside Apple Stores to be the FIRST to own an Apple product because just owning it won't be good enough. This in turns means that products can be rushed to the stores before testing them properly & that if Apple did once have a reputation for quality products (I wouldn't know because I've never found the need to own one), then that quality is now dropping.

So please don't expect reasoned or rational argument from most of them because most of them don't know how to. For tha majority of them, it's the getting the logo first that's most important, not reading technical reviews and specifications that would allow them to gain some ability to argue at a reasoned level with you.

And the worst thing about it? If Apple had a reputation for quality (again, I wouldn't know), then it's the Apple users own zealousness that's destroying that by allowing Apple to become just another huge profiteering corporation that is just there to leech as much money as possible from its ardently loyal customers.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[syousef]

You can't judge the relative worth of different products just by going down a feature checklist. A swiss army knife has many more features than an 8" chef knife, but which one would you rather use to cut up some onions?

Apples and oranges. Specialist tool vs generalist tool. If I could only have one I'd rather have the swiss army knife UNLESS all I was doing was cutting up food. The iPhone and other phones are both specialist tools made for making phone calls that have additional features. Your comparison doesn't fly.

And you weren't being critical of Apple, you were being critical of the millions of people who've bought an iPhone.

Actually I was doing both. Go re-read.

You can't dismiss numbers like that with something as basic as "brand loyalty." All those people aren't going out and handing over hundreds of dollars because the iPhone was shiny enough that it shut their brain off (OK, some are, but not the majority)

Oh really? Explain why companies are willing to pay so much for superbowl ads and the like then. Plenty of otherwise intelligent people have been conditioned into buying based on brand and following the trend.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[syousef]

You got modded flamebait because your post was flamebait.

Check the moderation.

40% Flamebait
30% Informative
30% Overrated

In other words at least 3 people (and likely more) found what I said informative. It's just that jackass Apple fanboys like yourself can't fucking stand it when someone criticizes their pet company. It's pathetic. Truly pathetic. Happens every time I criticize Apple. It gets modded up then the zealots shoot it down. Grow the fuck up. Not every opinion that is contrary to yours is flamebait jackass.

You called the iphone technically inferior, said it is missing industry standard features, and implied that the only reason people buy it is because of brand loyalty (and that nothing can protect them from their stupidity).

Correct on technically inferior. Correct on missing DEFACTO standard features. Correction it's only this popular due to brand loyalty. If the same phone were sold by another company it wouldn't take off. I stand by what I said.

our main points weren't what got you modded flamebait. It was the fact that you didn't back any of them up. Is the iphone technically inferior? Is it missing 'industry standard' features? You didn't even bother to list the industry standard features it is missing. Are you lazy, or are you unable to back up your points? Back up your arguments with reality and you will do much better getting the mods to understand you.

Oh I'm sorry fuck for brains. I forgot that I was writing a thesis. Oh wait it's just an internet discussion. The irony of you calling me lazy (not even bothering to ask me for proof) is just sweet. Go google iPhone missing features. Too lazy? Look at my other followup posts. Too lazy? Pot. Kettle Black. Typical fanboy! Here then:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=1849 [zdnet.com]
http://red66.com/2008/06/7-missing-features-from-the-iphone-3g/ [red66.com]
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=390
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=iphone+missing+features&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Would you like a rag to wipe that egg off your face? Or are you going to spout some weak defensive garbage about those not being industry standard features, or not being important to most people. (Catch cry of the Apple fanboy, if Apple don't have it, it's not important)

Your final point is going to be hard to back up, because it goes against a lot of people's practical experience. I don't have an iPhone (because I prefer very small phones), but it does everything I need it to do well (make phone calls, check email), and it looks cool and is fun to use besides. Frankly I have no idea why you like the Nokia 6220 classic. I suppose it fits your needs, which is fine, but some people want something different.

I already have backed it up. My phone has features the iPhone doesn't. I didn't need to hook it into a computer to make outgoing calls (fucking lame!!! a phone that doesn't make calls out of the box, but needs to be hooked up to a computer!). I can send MMS. I can take pictures at 5 megapixel which will make the iPhones 2 megapixel pictures look like ASS. I can record video without "jailbreaking" the thing. I can send a fucking MMS. THAT is why I like it.

So, personally, since I like the iphone, and I am not caught up in brand loyalty, therefor it is going to be hard to convince me that everyone who has bought an iphone did it because of brand loyalty.

Not enough to buy it. You don't even own an iPhone and you're defending it! Looks like fun my left nut. Why don't you just buy a turtleneck, tattoo the Apple logo on your forehead and be done with it.

Because you come across as a man who isn't con

Re:Blind brand devotion

[Ash-Fox]

The original poster's opinion coincide with my own.

You fall into the common trap of seeing apple's products as technically inferior, assuming technical is all that matters.

I don't automatically assume Apple's products are inferior. I find out they are. Additionally, that is not all that matters to me. It actually has to do what it says, decently. Looking at the subject of this article, it seems the iPhone isn't being a very good mobile phone.

My research is done, and Apple won.

Why do you think I care about what you are buying? I don't.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[Ash-Fox]

I think you're overestimating the size of the Apple fanboy market. That crowd certainly exists, but you're going to have a hard time convincing me that everyone who's got an iPhone got it just because it has an Apple logo on the back.

Quite a few regular Joe user I meet actually believe that "Apple products are supposed to be good", because they don't even do any research or such before they go out and get a phone, I see them buying iPhones - if they can afford it.

While they may not be "fanboys", they certainly are sheep.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[Anonymous Coward]

Mac Fan-boys bought them on the first day, not in the first couple of weeks or so.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[Tim Browse]

That will cost you the princely sum of $6.99

Re:Blind brand devotion

[mbourgon]

Deep breaths, man. You're going to burst a blood vessel.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[phantomfive]

To quote your other post:

Do the research. Compare the features to Nokia, Soney Ericson and other large brands.

That's lazy. Typical mod will read it and say, "Do the research? I already know what's out there and this guy's a troll." Sucks maybe, but that's how it is. I however, did do some research, and I found your beloved Nokia 6220 Classic has a weak battery life with a talk time of only 3.5 hours.

Do you see what I did there? I made a specific point and backed it up. It gets attention and it's way different than saying generic insults like, "the Nokia 6220 Classic isn't good enough in some areas," and it is different than saying, "your phone sucks, here's a bunch of links to prove it." Big difference.

Finally, don't get angry so easily. It's just an internet forum and getting angry makes you look stupid, which I have no reason to believe you actually are.

As you said, a certain number of the mods actually agreed with you, so all you really have to do is say stuff in a way that doesn't attract troll mods and you'll get modded up. Even if I think your point was rather inane (although half of it was probably right).

Re:Blind brand devotion

[ktappe]

I have zero sympathy for those that buy a technically inferior product...an overpriced technically inferior phone missing features so common they are considered industry standard

One assumes you are referring to the iPhone's lack of MMS and video capture and swappable battery. And on that front you are correct.

On the other hand, you neglect to list all the features the iPhone has that should be industry standards, like an intuitive interface that doesn't hide features in layer after layer of menus. Like a bright, large, functional touch screen. Like a built-in speaker that sounds pretty good. Like easily purchased (or free) software that installs with incredible ease.

If the iPhone isn't for you, then great; enjoy your 6220. But calling those who opt for alternatives to your phone "cultists" or "stupid" is not only unnecessary but downright incorrect if the iPhone feature set matches their needs.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[cowscows]

Well I guess the question is, how did that "apple products are supposed to be good" thought get into their head? Apple certainly has slick marketing, no doubt, but it's not like they're beaming subliminal messages into people while they sleep.

Is it word of mouth? I don't see anything wrong with that. I've got a pretty decent grasp on technology and am more than capable of doing thorough research, but when one of my good friends said that he thought I'd really like an iPhone, that's a really significant endorsement to me. He's a guy a know really well, he knows me really well, we've generally had very similar opinions on various pieces of technology over the years, and so his judgment is solid as far as I'm concerned. I'm not just blindly following some stranger yelling on the side of the road, I'm letting a source that I trust do some of the research for me. On the flip side, I love my mom to death but her views and uses of technology are very different than mine, so her suggestions about cell phones are mostly useless to me.

Are a lot of iPhone buyers getting them because they love their iPods and figure that Apple can get the phone thing right as well? Maybe, and that seems like a pretty valid reason to me as well. It's not a completely seamless jump from music player to cell phone, but the devices do have many similar features and Apple's earned a decent reputation in terms of designing interfaces.

There's been lots of media hype about the iPhone, no doubt, but the majority of what I've read in the past year has said that the iPhone is a good product. Many professional tech critics as well as less technologically focused writers have said good things about it, and for a lot of people that's good enough. Like I said before, for some people it's better to let others do the research for you. If you have the time and desire to sit and read every last detail about a bunch of phones before you make your choice, then good for you. That's not a compelling option for many people, but that doesn't make them mindless drones.

Even the iPhone commercials don't strike me as particularly shallow or trendy. They mostly just show some of the basic functions of the phone, and how they're accomplished.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[toddestan]

I think you're overestimating the size of the Apple fanboy market. That crowd certainly exists, but you're going to have a hard time convincing me that everyone who's got an iPhone got it just because it has an Apple logo on the back. That crowd was tapped out in the first couple weeks or so. The iPhone must be offering something to people that's making so many of them spend money on it.

Do you seriously think that the iPhone would have sold anywhere close to the numbers it has now if it was the exact same thing, but made by someone like Samsung? (for example)

Re:Blind brand devotion

[ToasterMonkey]

Firstly, go and take a historical look at the moderation of posts that make a criticism against Apple - you will find that just about all of them (including mine above) are negatively moderated.

Yes, lets take a look.

...you can still sit in Starbucks with your iPhones and your iBooks drinking your iMochachinos & just *pretend* to be having a really important conversation with someone important. Okay?

Maybe we can work out some kind of pre-arranged coded signal with you guys? Perhaps give your iMochachino a stir and we mere mortals will all pretend to be suitably impressed by you and in unison all say "Ooooh!"

Did you really expect this little nugget to get +5 insightful, my friend?

There can be only one reason for this - namely the Apple crowd feeling threatened by anyone who dares to criticise Apple.

Oh, so flamebait is OK, especially when it's directed towards the entire iPhone & iBook owning, and coffee shop visiting population. ... and resentment should not be expected...

Wake the hell up. Look, I don't want to play your silly fuck-fuck games. Do you REALLY think your post didn't deserve it's moderation? Does it contain any useful information, or even a HINT that you might know what the FUCK you're talking about?
Do ANY negatively moderated Apple criticisms show any fucking signs that the commenter knows what the fuck he/she is talking about? Show me the money bitch. The next time some ignorant, asshat college student with a bad job and pissy attitude writes a comment critical of something simply because they can't relate with the people who buy/use them, I will moderate them into the fucking floor, rest assured.

And quite frankly, it's the "brand sheep" who are doing more harm to the rest of us than anyone else - they part with their cash far too easily for nice looking products without considering that also those products may also support the "hidden" features of DRM and vendor lock-in as well.

And try telling me how to spend my money to support YOUR ideals again, you little fucking shit.

If you want to live the rest of your life buying generic brand shit, fucking go for it. I draw the line where you start telling ME how your shit is *good enough* for me, as if I'm putting myself on too high a pedestal for wanting some shit that fucking works reliably or God forbid, looks cool.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[Ash-Fox]

This stuff can all be seen as anecdotal from both sides, but still, interesting to discuss.

Well I guess the question is, how did that "apple products are supposed to be good" thought get into their head? Apple certainly has slick marketing, no doubt, but it's not like they're beaming subliminal messages into people while they sleep.

It's also the media hype around their products. You hear Apple everywhere, people are bound to take notice subconsciously even if they aren't paying attention.

Is it word of mouth?

No, I haven't met many iPhone users who actually approved of the device even though they showed off a few things.

Are a lot of iPhone buyers getting them because they love their iPods and figure that Apple can get the phone thing right as well?

The majority of people I know who have iPhones never had a iPod (I know 15 people who own a iPhone, 3 of which had a iPod before - note: I know far more people with a blackberry, you can pretty much guess what kind of people I associate with). I am certain quite a few of those people I know got it because it was 'trendy' at the time.

There's been lots of media hype about the iPhone, no doubt, but the majority of what I've read in the past year has said that the iPhone is a good product. Many professional tech critics as well as less technologically focused writers have said good things about it, and for a lot of people that's good enough.

funny enough, I've heard the opposite about the iPhone -- usually long rants about how it offers nothing unique in British news articles.

Even the iPhone commercials don't strike me as particularly shallow or trendy. They mostly just show some of the basic functions of the phone, and how they're accomplished.

I don't own a TV, nor do I want one. I'm not even sure if Apple actually advertises in the UK or if it's just the mobile phone operator.

Re:Blind brand devotion

[syousef]

That's lazy. Typical mod will read it and say, "Do the research? I already know what's out there and this guy's a troll." Sucks maybe, but that's how it is. I however, did do some research, and I found your beloved Nokia 6220 Classic has a weak battery life with a talk time of only 3.5 hours.

That's lazy? But it's reasonable to expect me to list out a feature comparison of every phone out there vs the iPhone?

The worst thing you could find about the 6220 classic is 3.5 hours talk time? I don't know how you use your phone but if I spent 3.5 hrs/day on the phone I'd be re-mortgaging my house. Did you check the standby time? In practical use I can go 3 or 4 days without charging it. 8 hours talk time vs 3.5 realistically means I have to charge my phone twice a week instead of once. Usually I just put it on charge every night and be done with it.

Whereas the buggy crap radio chipset on the iPhone means you get 1 bar of signal when everyone else is getting full signal. Which phone would I rather? Let me just think about it.

Do you see what I did there? I made a specific point and backed it up. It gets attention and it's way different than saying generic insults like, "the Nokia 6220 Classic isn't good enough in some areas," and it is different than saying, "your phone sucks, here's a bunch of links to prove it." Big difference.

Yes I did see what you did there. You made a weaker point, provided less backup (at least when asked to, I pointed to links instead of just pointing to a figure without stating my source), and then were condescending about it to boot. Another thing: If you pointed me to a better phone I'd have NO problem at all saying yes, you're right, wish I'd seen that before I bought. Not so with the iPhone and it's fans.

Finally, don't get angry so easily. It's just an internet forum and getting angry makes you look stupid, which I have no reason to believe you actually are.

As you said, a certain number of the mods actually agreed with you, so all you really have to do is say stuff in a way that doesn't attract troll mods and you'll get modded up. Even if I think your point was rather inane (although half of it was probably right).

Look I'm not here to abuse anyone or feign superiority. I hold nothing against you personally. However I am tired of people continually saying how fantastic Apple products are. I've bought Apple products twice in my life. An Apple IIe when I was 8 years old, which was overpriced and only to see Apple pull software sales from non-Apple outlets (essentially meaning I'd be lucky to be able to buy software twice a year), and a pair of iPods (for my wife and I) which also have been problematic (my clickwheel doesn't work. Hers had to be returned). There are people on this discussion board that could run circles around me in terms of technical knowledge and expertise, but some of those same people will buy bad product based on brand and then fool themselves (and others) into thinking that it's superior. That really gets my goat. It brings down the quality of all products on the market and gives me less choice while rewarding bad behaviour from companies. Why would any company go to the extra trouble and expense of making a good product when a bad one sells just as well?

Re:Blind brand devotion

[konohitowa]

Exactly what I'm talking about. You go all off on your attacks because you're coming from a mode of fear. Although I didn't need to re-read your post, I did and there's no change in my analysis. Because you don't like something, it's obviously inferior and anyone that does like something you don't like has some severe fault allowing them to like that thing.

Your response is just more of the same. People who don't have what you have suffer from "brand loyalty crap". And since I actually deigned to point it out, I "can't comprehend plain English", and am "a twit" that "can dish out criticism but can't take it". Even though you never once criticized me in your original post because - hey - I wasn't even in your discussion line. If it would make you happy I suppose I could go all defensive to try to make your point for you and start calling you names. But then we'd both be acting that way.

Cell phone-wise...

[Anonymous Coward]

...my el-cheapo Nokia 1100 is looking better all the time. Works like a champ, and the battery seems to last forever!

it certainly

[Anonymous Coward]

It certainly must not be Apple's fault. I'm sure it is caused by someone less cool.

Same problems with old phone....

[eegad]

I've had tons of connection/signal and dropped call problems ever since I upgraded my old non-3G iPhone to the 2.0 OS. I think this is a software problem.

Re:Same problems with old phone....

[EPDM]

Nonetheless. It shows Apple's "Outstanding product quality"... whoahahahaha. Oh boy. ... and then you wonder why ppl hack OSX to make it run on anything else BUT apple hardware, djeez.

Re:Same problems with old phone....

[ktappe]

and then you wonder why ppl hack OSX to make it run on anything else BUT apple hardware, djeez.

Um...but the post to which you replied specifically stated he thought this was a software problem. So why would you advocate keeping only the software and ditching Apple hardware? Methinks you need to put a bit more thought into your posts so that you don't end up saying exactly the opposite of what you mean.

Re:OMG APPLE SUX, news AT 10!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

(aka apple-gadget)

How clever...

That's hillarious..

[Anonymous Coward]

I was involved in a project that required an Infineon chipset. They had to support to *DSL variants: HDSL and G.SHDSL. After numerous delays, the HDSL had to be dropped because I kid you not: the powers that be at Infineon grossly underestimated the amount of work to support the additional protocol. The head of the design team seriously thought that it was just going to be a matter of changing some parameters...

They deserve every bit of bad news that they get...

Hahahahahahaha...

It's not the chipset...

[CaptSaltyJack]

It's because Batman installed his tracking transmitters in every cell phone in the world. That's why reception is spotty.. duh!

US or Europe?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are we talking about issues in the US where 3G isn't exactly great or Europe where it has been around longer?

Edge

[bigbadbuccidaddy]

I think the 3G chipset problems and all these 3G phones failing back to Edge has made my iPhone V1 drop more calls and suck more. I never got great Edge reception at my house but since the 3G came out my phone drops calls all the time.

Re:OMG APPLE SUX, news AT 10!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

hey, have some balls and don't post ac.


...

It's an AT&T Network problem. Fido was similar

[aristotle-dude]

Looking at the thread on the Apple discussion boards, this seems to be an issue with the popularity of the new 3G phone and the inability of the AT&T 3G network to be able to handle the extra data load with such an internet enabled device.

I experienced a similar issue for a few days in Canada with the Fido and others with the Rogers 3G networks shortly after the July 11th launch. Within a few days, the problems mostly went away where I live and now I get great reception even at work.

There may be a few faulty 3G iPhones but this is mostly caused by a combination of faulty AT&T sims and problems with their network stability and capacity.

New 3G Network

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in the industry. I know AT&Ts' 3G network is new and really unproven. 2G service is way more reliable. I have a BlackJack and when I have it set to 2G I have awesome coverage with no problems. With my blackjack on 3G I get dropped calls. Jerky sounding calls. All with full signal all over town. I've tried other 3G phones with same results. I think this is common for any new network that hasn't worked out all its blemishes.

This is not an iPhone chip issue. It is a network issue.

Re:New 3G Network

[Seakip18]

For real. They are botching the 3g install in my town. All of my calls have been classified as roaming, though it's nationwide calling. Other things such as loud beeps, dropped calls, and other weird stuff are common among me and my 3G network friends.

can't blame Apple. Religion says so.

[recharged95]

Can't blame Apple.

But we can blame the stuff that Apple chooses.

The the winner (Apple) goes the spoils, but to the problems go the companies that deal with Apple (Infineon). Shame on Infineon for not making sure Apple succeeds.

Little known fact

[Nicky G]

Little known fact: Anyone who uses the phrase "Apple Fanboy" is in fact either a Microsoft Fanboy, Linux Fanboy, Nokia Fanboy, HTC Fanboy, or Sony Fanboy.

Re:Little known fact

[ceoyoyo]

Or jealous.

Re:Little known fact

[r_newman]

Little known fact: Anyone who uses the phrase "Apple Fanboy" is in fact either a Microsoft Fanboy, Linux Fanboy, Nokia Fanboy, HTC Fanboy, or Sony Fanboy.

Or bitter because they don't earn enough to be able to justify the cost of a piece of Apple kit instead of the cheaper and less 'cool' Dell, Nokia, Creative etc.

Re:Little known fact

[BubbaJonBoy]

So what if I maintain they *all* suck to some degree?

Re:Little known fact

[dave420]

Or just pissed off with people spouting nonsense about how great Apple products are. You don't have to be a fanboy to be pissed off. All fanboys piss me off, regardless of their camp. As soon as you stop talking facts and start talking baseless opinions, you're a wanker. Simple as.

Sorry Charlie

[ez151]

Living in same spot 10 years, always spotty reception on att ( also had for 10 years, first att, then cingular, then bellsouth, then att) and always spotty reception.

My last 3 Sony-Ericksons had the same bad reception, but at least I was ALWAYS able to make calls, staticy, but i cold make and receive them. Had maybe 5 -10 dropped calls ever. ALWAYS able to make calls whenever, wherever.

Now fast forward to the present iphone 3g and I go sometimes 5 minutes with that frackin Call Failed.... crap. Already had at least 20 dropped calls.

I want to throw the iphone through the iwall.

But I wont cuz the internet and stuff is like so cool on it, so I will put up with it. Just like every other person who is experiencing this drop call issue.

NO ONE will return the iphone to go back to their blackberry or whatever.

OVERALL the best personal tech experience I have EVER had and I know a lot of other peeps who feel the same way. ( and REAL peeps, not internet chat room forum, wow clan peeps. real flesh and blood peeps.)

Re:Sorry Charlie

[PitaBred]

Try another service provider. Oh, wait... you bought a phone that was locked to a specific service. Serves you right.

I can't believe you're paying that much per month for service and can't make a call, and you're WILLING TO KEEP DOING SO. WTF? I'd be getting a full refund since they aren't keeping up their end of the bargain, and finding another carrier. One who doesn't ass-rape you. Well, at least not as much.

Re:Sorry Charlie

[Ash-Fox]

Now fast forward to the present iphone 3g and I go sometimes 5 minutes with that frackin Call Failed.... crap. Already had at least 20 dropped calls.

...

OVERALL the best personal tech experience I have EVER had and I know a lot of other peeps who feel the same way. ( and REAL peeps, not internet chat room forum, wow clan peeps. real flesh and blood peeps.)

I love Steve's reality distortion field.

Re:Sorry Charlie

[Mr2001]

Try the LG Dare. Touch screen that rotates as you turn the phone, full-HTML browser with zoom and pan, music and video player, etc. just like the iPhone... but it's easier to type on, you can expand the memory, and it runs on Verizon's more reliable 3G network (and you don't have to pay $30/mo for a data plan).

Fucking fanboys!

[Anonymous Coward]

Troll much?

Go to Apple forums and do some research for yourself.

There have always been issues with any product. The difference is in how well the company deals with it (remember MobileMess?), and how its fanboys defend it (just look in the mirror).

Re:Fucking fanboys!

[Serious Callers Only]

I would never buy MobileMe as it strikes me as an overpriced, undersupported waste of time - why not just use gmail and other free services, or better still pay for your own domain and keep your email for life? Certainly wouldn't trust Apple to provide cloud services after their bait-and-switch with .mac, there are better options.

I certainly wouldn't trust this article however, and looking at forums with say 50 participants on a thread is not a good way to judge whether there are widespread problems, or what the cause of those problems may be. This may be an issue with the network, with specific phones, or with overcrowding of the network in certain areas. It's unlikely to be all phones as most people just aren't experiencing it.

As to 'fanboys', I suggest next time you use that term you consider whether they actually exist, or whether they just make an easy rhetorical punch-bag and feed your own delusions of superiority?

Nope. When it comes to sucking...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. that award goes to gizmodo - Brian Lam and Adam Fucci are seen a lot in the Job's bedroom according to an Apple insider. Wait for gizmodo scoop on size of Job's dick and weight of his balls.

A possible chance is better than zero chance.

[nick_davison]

In order of level of accuracy we have:

• Company making a full disclosure (almost never happens)
• Wisdom of crowds (individual guesses are wrong but the average of all the wrong guesses tends to be more accurate than...)
• Individual guesses (some get lucky, most miss)
• Company refusing to acknowledge any issues lest they have to pay for an expensive recall.

He may not be an expert in the field. Statistically, pulling a name at random out of the phonebook still has a greater chance of finding the right person than a company denying that there's even a phonebook.

The reality is that a large number of people are having problems with dropped calls, a very large number have significant problems with response time (particularly, it seems, if they've largely filled the device), and almost everyone are having problems with the device locking up and needing semi-regular hard reboots. Even first gen iPhone users who've upgraded to the 2.0 software are complaining about many more issues but at least they can revert - something not open to 3G users.

My guess, and I'm just a programmer/nerd and not a qualified phone engineer, is that it's a combination of newly sourced and poorly tested parts running in a major OS recode that also didn't get the level of testing any other wider ranging OS would get (they couldn't run a beta because Apple have a bitch of a time with leaks and cling on more tightly to avoiding them than most companies).

I may be right, I may be wrong. Statistically, whether the cat is dead or alive in the box, guessing about its state will sometimes be right. Apple's policy of keeping quiet and pretending there's no cat, no box and quantum states only happen to other companies ensures their answers are worse than other people's guesses.

Re:A possible chance is better than zero chance.

[SuperKendall]

We all know the reality. That is not in question. What is in question is the proposed cause of the problems, thus the questioning of the credentials of one who claims to know what they are...

Re:A possible chance is better than zero chance.

[calstraycat]

With due respect, I think you completely missed the point of my message. That you or any unqualified Joe blow on the street has an opinion regarding the cause of the alleged connection issues with the iPhone is irrelevant.

My point is that musings of a financial analyst with no technical credentials whatsoever was picked up by numerous mainstream media outlets (including Barrons, CNET and Slashdot), yet no one bothered to point out that this man was, for all practical purposes, talking out of his ass.

Your list of possible sources of information misses the most important one: individuals with direct expertise in the area in question. There isn't a statistical crapshoot for accurate information as you have implied. There are experts in the area of cellular RF engineering. Anyone mouthing off on this issue who lacks those credentials should be ignored.

Regarding your opinion, I would say that you have not thought everything through and appear to have jumped to several conclusions yourself. Although it is entirely possible that the iPhone has a problem that causes connection losses in excess of other cellular devices, no scientifically and statistically valid evidence exists to support such a claim.

The fact that many people have complained on internet forums about connection problems does not prove that the iPhone drops more calls or has poorer reception than other devices. Despite this lack of demonstrable scientific evidence, you believe Apple should "fess up" to having a problem with their product. I would argue that they would be foolish to do that.

If it can be demonstrated in a controlled, repeatable experiment that the iPhone's reception is below par relative to competing devices, Apple should take swift action to fix or replace the units. However, until such evidence exists, it would be foolhardy of Apple to make public statements on the matter.

Moderation

[jpmorgan]

I like how this got moderated to +5 Insightful then immediately moderated as 'Overrated' down to 0. Apparently the moderators know more about RF engineering than me. But hey, if you don't believe me put the iPhone antenna into SEMCAD or any friendly EM modelling software and find out for yourself.

Re:Moderation

[Anonymous Coward]

And that is why you got moded down, if you make a statement like the one about the antenna, you should back it up with some facts (or at least a link to some). Otherwise it is just a statement (of what you believe), and saying we, the readers, can go test it ourself in some software isn't much help either.

Re:Iphone 2.0 bricks all iphones. Serious issue. R

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this a troll? Read the thread and see for yourself.

Re:yes

[drseuss9311]

interesting...

lovly

[Anonymous Coward]

so this mean, ask before you try ? i'm waiting for the 20gb one.

Questionable Analyst

[tribecom]

This bozo hasn't even determined if in fact it's an infineon chipset for sure ... much less he's the same tool that made dire predictions about the touchscreen "wearing out" before the first iphone even hit the shelves. There might end up being something to a bad chipset, but right now it's *pure* speculation.

Nvidia should have conducted more testing too!

[wshwe]

Nvidia should have conducted more testing on their GPUs, especially their mobile chips.

Re:It's an AT&T Network problem. Fido was simi

[LinuxInDallas]

I'd love to understand how the SIM causes dropped calls. Can you please explain?

NGM$

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought the whole point to apple OVERPRICING their products was because of the "extensive" testing that they do and everything just works. Apple is nothing more than NGM$ (New Generation Micro$oft) Until people pull Jobs out of their arse and see this, they will just get worse. Why, because if people buy it, why change?

OSX apartheid Operating System

[jessedorland]

Apple creates a good products -- some time. None the less most of their products are expensive -- way more expensive then they should be. I paid for my Mini-Mac over $1000 Canadian dollar, that just is not right. Why? Because values of Canadian dollar is higher therefore Mac - Mini should've cost me no more then $400. This has been pointed out many times by many people in media -- even by mac-heads freaks. No one can deny that OS-X is a wonderful operating system -- compare to Vista. And it's Unix core gives it a very strong security. Non-the-less we are paying very too much for the hardware. And TPM chip software consumes way too much resource. TPM is design to prevent OSX running on a typical x86 hardware. Their behavior is not only illegal but unethical.

Those of you who are not aware of TPM. Think of TPM like old South African government -- White didn't want non-white to have same right or live in a same community. The same way Mac doesn't want non-mac x86 to have OSX. So they created a software which will make sure osx only runs of x86 with TPM chip. TPM is an Apple version of apartheid.

Apple is an evil twin of Microsoft.

Re:OSX apartheid Operating System

[cbackas]

Apple creates a good products -- some time. None the less most of their products are expensive -- way more expensive then they should be.

I paid for my Mini-Mac over $1000 Canadian dollar, that just is not right. Why? Because values of Canadian dollar is higher therefore Mac - Mini should've cost me no more then $400. This has been pointed out many times by many people in media -- even by mac-heads freaks.

No one can deny that OS-X is a wonderful operating system -- compare to Vista. And it's Unix core gives it a very strong security. Non-the-less we are paying very too much for the hardware. And TPM chip software consumes way too much resource. TPM is design to prevent OSX running on a typical x86 hardware. Their behavior is not only illegal but unethical.

Those of you who are not aware of TPM. Think of TPM like old South African government -- White didn't want non-white to have same right or live in a same community. The same way Mac doesn't want non-mac x86 to have OSX. So they created a software which will make sure osx only runs of x86 with TPM chip. TPM is an Apple version of apartheid.

Apple is an evil twin of Microsoft.

Sorry to interject some reality into a perfectly good rant, but your bit about TPM is rather off base. But I can't say it any better than this guy:
http://www.osxbook.com/book/bonus/chapter7/tpmdrmmyth/

Macs don't use TPM. They don't even ship with a TPM chip these days. Yes, the early Intel ones did. No, it was not used.

What, what? In the butt???

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL, more disillusioned Apple fanbois griping about their silly toy being a fancy paper weight.

My Roomate and CoWorker

[greymond]

Swears he has never had any dropped calls or crappy connections since he has been using his iPhone and he keeps telling me that these stories are just all lies (ok he's a bit of a zealous nut) but honestly, other than the news I know three people with iPhones and they haven't mentioned any significant issue.

Re:My Roomate and CoWorker

[dave420]

What you don't see is after he finishes telling you that, he runs to the bathroom in tears, screaming at the sky "WHY, STEVE? HAVE I NOT BEEN GOOD TO YOU??". He's hurting on the inside.

Re:It's an AT&T Network problem. Fido was simi

[aristotle-dude]

I'd love to understand how the SIM causes dropped calls. Can you please explain?

Apparently some of the older sims handed out by AT&T were not properly registered to allow access to all 3G cell towers. This is what certain AT&T users were saying. As a Canadian on Fido, I can neither confirm or deny whether this was true or not as the Canadian problems were exclusively network based.

3rd Generation

[Anonymous Coward]

Always wait for the 3rd generation of any tech product...I'll by my iPhone next year. Thank you beta testers!

Re:It's an AT&T Network problem. Fido was simi

[FrkyD]

Not just ATT. When I upgraded to the iPhone 3G I was still using a sim from a couple of years ago. Many problems ensued, partly because of the SIM and partly because of T-Mobiles innabillity to set up my account properly. Since my SIM upgrade, almost all of the issues have been resolved. Except for the crappy coverage that is. But that's been a problem with T-Mobile Austria for ages...

Congrats.

[dafing]

number one google search result for "duck quack synthesizer" haha :)

Telecom Operator blames iPhone for 3g issues in NL

[Anonymous Coward]

Meanwhile in The Netherlands (a good testbed, a small country with many iPhones) several iPhone users have been complaining about '3G network coverage problems' with the licensed Telecom Operator (T-Mobile NL).

In a note, the latter blames the problem to the iPhone, suggesting to keep an eye on the future patches and upgrades from Apple.

I personally own a Nokia 3G phone for 3 years already (it can do video calls, too) with the same operator. I can testify I never ever had 3G coverage issues or 'disconnections' in the land.

Oh, and my Nokia never calls back home..

T-Mobile Reference:
http://iphoneblog.t-mobile.nl/2008/08/iphone-en-3g/

Short translation:
1. "The 3G coverage is not in the average as good as the coverage map[of the operator] reports"
2. "When the iPhone switches between 3G and 2G the connection is lost when using certain applications"

News Entries:
http://news.google.nl/news?hl=nl&ned=nl_nl&ie=UTF-8&ncl=1237993062

(sorry web pages in dutch, use your favorite translator)

No One Acknowledges Issues - Ever

[Anonymous Coward]

There is never anything wrong. Never. No connection problems, you're internet isnt broken when you call - you just want to speak to customer service reps in India for the FUCK OF IT... There's never any problems with anything people complain about anymore.

What a sad fucking world this has become. Stop complaining, your phone that doenst connect is MADE to be like that. Its a paperweight when it isnt working, didnt you know that? Its part of its design.

Screw everyone.

The reason for dropouts is...

[Anonymous Coward]

the iPhone's 3G runs on the same frequency as the RDF
since the RDF is much stronger calls get dropped

Apple reliability is predictable...

[Anonymous Coward]

MacBook pro still suffers several "unacknowledged" reliability issues from both software and hardware (poor wireless connectivity, wake up freeze after suspend, lot of HD failures, ...). This is shameful for the price of this device.

So, this is not really a surprise, especially considering the "unacknowledged" fiasco of the Atheros wireless chip in the MBP.

Early adopters ... I thank you ...

[cjjjer]

This is not surprising as the Infineon 3G chipset solution has never really been tested in the hands of users

It would seem that early adopters are becoming the new testers for consumer hardware. And since I am not an early adopter.....

I thank all of you for making my experience so much better a year from now when I buy v2.5 of the hardware.

He may be right...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've done extensive research on this (I'm a member of the Apple Consultants Network), and I think there may be something to it.

There are a couple of threads on the Apple discussion forums which are well over a thousand posts in length of people saying "me too!" regarding poor reception. The interesting thing is that it includes people all over the world, which indicates it isn't just a problem with AT&T. It looks to me like a software/hardware issue with the phone. Every iPhone 3G which I've seen so far has serious connection issues in areas where other 3G phones are working fine--even other AT&T phones.

I'd post links to the relevant items, but I'm posting this from my iPhone 2.5G, so I have no copy and paste yet (sigh).

Re:It's an AT&T Network problem. Fido was simi

[stinkyj]

I'd say almost without a doubt, it's the 3G network itself. I work for a handset manufacturer and we have a fairly good 3G network in our metro, but coverage is still spotty at best. One of the reasons Apple went GPRS/EDGE was not just for battery, it was the network coverage. Ugly fact AT&T doesnt mention is 3G is not quite prime time yet. It's getting better, but it's not going to happen overnight that it will reach GSM coverage levels.

It's AT&Ts "teetering on the edge of networks"

[sarysa]

I've been hearing these complaints from iPhone users and it's not the iPhone or Infineon's fault. I call it the "teetering on the edge of networks" bug because it happens when 3G's around 1-2 bars while edge is around 3-4. It appears that the phone's trying to get the best possible connection but when 3G and EDGE are about the same, the phone will switch between networks, often repeatedly, causing dropped calls, download problems and whatnot. This is all assumption, but I've been privied to enough to AT&T phones to feel I almost hit the nail on the head here. I only wish there were a "to hell with 3G" option available on any of these phones so I could confirm my theory.

Re:It's an AT&T Network problem. Fido was simi

[ktappe]

Apparently some of the older sims handed out by AT&T were not properly registered to allow access to all 3G cell towers.

This is great info, as someone who has myself experienced repeated dropped calls while using my iPhone 3G in my living room. (Friends tend to start making fun of your new iPhone after they get dropped four times during a single conversation.)

The question is, how can I know whether I have such a SIM in my iPhone?

This is an issue for a large production product...

[TheNetAvenger]

This is an issue for a large production product...

I see a lot of people of fanbois running to say all products have glitches blah blah blah...

This is a large production product and it is not an 'only' nor even a 'new' technology...

You can get a 4yr old Razr or 715 or even a free Samsung R500 at Walmart that have outstanding 3G reception, and this is the 'cheap' stuff, not even a pocket PC or pda class phone device.

Apple 'pretends' to be better or provide a 'better' product, but it isn't reality anymore, and hasn't been for years and years. They are more of the 'me too' crowd and when it comes to hardware quality, they will buy the cheapest crap they can find making even model to model have different LCDs, GPUs, or chipsets on their computers because they get a 'deal'.

They have gotten way too much of a free ride on SlashDot because of Darwin, which is now nicely closed up in all important areas, and in their products and business practices they make Microsoft look like the 'nice' consumer friendly company...

Apple is concerned only with WOW

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is a company about WOW. Steve Jobs can sell ice cubes to the North Pole. Just call them iCubes. But seriously, Apple is all about the sales pitch and a few features that WOW the average user and Apple FanBoy (which does'nt take much). The real fact of the matter is Apple's are no better or worse then anything else.
It's just that they cost more. That being said, Apple needs to bring profit margins down and get product prices in line with the rest of competition. I think we can safely say that the ideal of Apple being worth the extra price is going away fast.

Re:It's AT&Ts "teetering on the edge of networ

[drtsystems]

It's actually the opposite with the iPhone. In my house I get spotty AT&T reception. But if I have my phone in EDGE only mode, I usually will only drop a call if I go in the basement. With 3G turned on, if the Phone decides it wants to use the 3g signal when I am calling someone or receiving a call, it is almost guaranteed I will drop the call. The phone refuses to switch back to EDGE.

No Service

[God_TM]

I've had mine for about 2 weeks now. Today was the 4th time my phone would go into 'No Service' mode. A restore doesn't help, and the phone will spontaneously re-connect to the network after a few hours/days of being down. I've just set up an appointment with my local Apple store for them to look at it (and hopefully replace this lemon). As an 'upgrade' to a Treo 700w, I'm starting to regret my purchase (Not only do I get these downtime issues, but their current Activesync/Exchange implementation is atrocious (compared to the WM platform).

Beware, Richard is the same "touch screen" guy.

[aristotle-dude]

You guys should not be taking his words at face value. His claims about a chemical on the iPhone and iPod Touch wearing out proved to be false.

http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20070810/iphone-deadspot/

Same Problem with Nokia Phone

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm using a Nokia N95 in a german UMTS network, and i have exactly the same problem. The phone can't do a handover from UMTS to GSM, so when the signal gets weak, phone calls drop. This, for example, happens every time i'm driving out of my city (my network doesn't serve 3G on the countryside).
I find it interesting that for data connections handovers do work.