Slashdot Mirror
CC Companies Scotch Mythbusters Show On RFID Security
mathfeel passes along a video in which Mythbusters co-host Adam Savage recounts how credit card companies lawyered up to make sure the Discovery channel never, ever airs a segment on the flaws in RFID security. "Texas Instruments comes on [a scheduled conference call] along with chief legal counsel for American Express, Visa, Discover, and everybody else... They [Mythbusters producers] were way, way outgunned and they [lawyers] absolutely made it really clear to Discovery that they were not going to air this episode talking about how hackable this stuff was, and Discovery backed way down being a large corporation that depends upon the revenue of the advertisers. Now it's on Discovery's radar and they won't let us go near it."
No disrespect to the MythBusters, but if they could figure it out, plenty of others will also.
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
I can't wait until they test my myths! Also, lawyers are the reason we no longer have habeas corpus, so the show should be filmed in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
My work here is dung.
Myth Confirmed.
Busting Security Through Obscurity!
This isn't at all about the hackers ... this is about making the general public aware just how bad this is.
"So, if I Understand this correctly, you knew of these security holes back in 2008, and rather than fix them, you prevented the Mythbusters from talking about them."
"Well, yes, Your Honor."
"Give me another reason why I should listen to one word of your defense against this class action suit?"
This will come back and bite them in the @$$. Hard.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
I don't. They tend to be old, out of touch with modern technology. I think enough BS by CC lawyers would confound them and justice would not be served.
But I'm told I'm a cynic :)
Blar.
So, rather than face lawsuits over contractual obligations to build and maintain a secure system (hah), they litigate the party who exposes them for attempting fraud.
Should it be surprising that in a culture that prizes profits and pride over progress, that litigation threats are used to squelch otherwise good feedback and information?
"We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
Of course, now that the story is propagating all over the Net, pretty soon everyone will know about the alleged security flaws (if not the details), and the CC companies and their legal eagles will look quite villainous. When will they ever learn?
"Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
freedom of speech.
Wildly popular Mythbusters television star Adam Savage resigned suddenly from his position as cohost of Discovery TV's Mythbusters. Said Mr. Savage: "I just want to take a little personal time with my family. I'll be taking some time out for a year or four in Belize."
Mr. Savage has not been seen since, and our repeated calls to his agent go unanswered.
The Discovery Channel has announced through media representative Linsay Patter "We'll miss him and wish him the best. His loss means we won't be able to continue with the show." Discovery will be filling the space with Annie Parkinson's "Crafts for Children".
Help stamp out iliturcy.
They weren't able to stop this one, which, if you haven't seen yet, is pretty amazing.
-------------------
This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
That this clip is leaked to the Internet where it explodes in popularity.
Sure, but regular credit cards are already established. RFID credit cards are yet to become standard, and that should be prevented.
It's a all about risk management for the companies involved. On one hand you have the Discovery Channel which depends on advertising revenues. On the other hand you have several large corporations that are using a flawed system. The question for the credit card companies is whether or not it's cheaper to use the system in place and pressure others not to disclose flaws or come up with something that works better. Sort of reminds me of Mitsubishi and the wheels flying off their heavy vehicles a few years ago. It was cheaper to payout settlements than recall and fix the vehicles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Motors#Vehicle_defect_cover-up
I know the management of these companies have obligations to the shareholders but isn't about time they started to exhibit an obligation to not make fraud so easy with the current system?
i hope this gets even more publicity...
heres egg on your face American Express, MasterCard & Visa, now secure your crappy RFID system...
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
I truly see Frontline as one of the last and only truly investigative journalism programs on TV. It's the only show where I have found myself thinking "wow what they are reporting is interesting but it raises question A" and then as if by magic, the show continues: "we decided to further investigate and here's what we found about question A and this lead us to questions B, C and D"
meep
...for Slashdot to hammer the crap out of some corporate bullies, it sounds like this might be it. Could someone appropriately knowledgeable perhaps post a detailed account of how incredibly hackable RFID security is? A couple of URL's leading to websites with all the red meat would also be appropriate. PGP proves that once the genii is out of the bottle, it can't be put back in all that easily.
Frankly, I'm sick and tired of all these corporate assholes and their attitude. You can bet your bottom dollar that they'll keep the current, flawed system as-is, and simply out-last any hacking victim who dares to challenge them in court. The best solution is to make sure everybody with even a grade school education and a card reader can screw them at will. Maybe then, they'll do something about fixing the problem.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Bad analogy time:
It's like a ship with holes in it. If the ship is already at sea, you shut up and man the pumps. But if the ship is in the dock, you yell "Look, hole!" and hopefully you wont have to pump quite as much later on.
If only there was a way for information to spread without having to be transmitted through television...
"CC Companies Irish Mythbusters Show On Security"
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
An expensive lawsuit would almost certainly be filed after the fact, but it stands no chance of success. Discovery could counter-sue for barratry and violations of anti-SLAPP statutes.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
"...and I have decided to keep those revelations to myself so that it is not exploited by every script kiddie and wannabe hackers to try."
And you are the only person that will figure that method out, I guess. Hopefully, you are the smartest person alive, and the problem so difficult no one else can possibly figure it out too, and abuse it.
The way we move forward as a race is that we share information, both about what works and helps, and more importantly about what doesn't work or causes harm. If the people affected the most by the flaw that has been discovered do nothing about it, then disclosure is the way. That way everyone else is informed and warned, as they should be.
Alright, showing my ignorance of our legal system here, but where does law fit in here? I don't see how the DC could get sued over this info. I *do* see the issue of ticking off their sponsors, but why are the lawyers involved?
Let's hope they don't run a segment on how bad fast food is for you any time soon...
Make a note of this on their Wikipedia entry.
I assume they were going to demonstrate a MIFARE classic attack, on which papers are plentiful.
Belief is the currency of delusion.
When you take the call, you ask, "May we record this call for possible inclusion in our episode on RFID systems? No? Then this conversation has ended. Goodbye. [Click]"
Have gnu, will travel.
This would ring true if they weren't such notorious brown-nosers when it comes to authority figures. "Oh, Mr. FBI man you are soooo smart." "Oh, Mr. radar gun man, no one could ever fool you." "Sames goes for you Mr. DUI man." etc., ad nauseum.
Faith: n. -- That human impulse that drives them to steal appliances when the power goes out
Today, I've been seeing some jack-boot operations by the St. Paul police on some folks who didn't mean anyone any harm. The cops arrested lawyers and reporters, too. There are some lawyers who are going to make those cops and their puppet masters pay big. And I'm glad that their is financial incentive for folks to go after Government when it so egregiously violates people's rights and makes a mockery of our Constitution that those disgraces to the name of police made in St. Paul.
The St. Paul and Denver police departments are a disgrace. I hope some lawyers representing their clients (some are veterans) get rich while punishing those imbeciles. And I really hope some of those cops go to jail themselves.
The banking industry in general isn't the more secure place. While they'll spend money on intrusion detection systems etc, a simple low tech approach can defeat most bank security measures.
There's a nice thought.
Or given that TI is mentioned, maybe it's more likely to be about Rubin et.al's attack on TI's Digital Signature Transponder. See Security Analysis of a Cryptographically-Enabled RFID Device (paper) and/or article.
Belief is the currency of delusion.
C'mon -- SOME network is going to see the publicity value of this story and run with it.
I piss off bigots.
I remember bill moyers and his 'now' show. it was great, and he had this other guy (david b-something) as a second - and it did some good 'digging' on important stories.
from what I understand, he got shot down and was forced to 'retire' because he asked too many hard questions and bothered too many powerful bigwigs.
he did come back, but not on that show and he *was* put 'out of business' for about a year or two (iirc). ie, the chilling effect was done to PBS, which is a sacred cow, in US culture (more or less).
if moyers can be silenced, its proof our whole system is broken. PBS was a final hold-out but even PBS was *heavily* edited by bush-co and their henchmen.
TV is a wasteland; cable is mostly such; and even more and more of 'the net' is getting to be high in noise/signal ratio. the net is still mostly unregulated, but imagine the trend going from tv->cable->'teh internets'. we may see it in our lifetimes, too, if things don't get reversed soon.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
But if no one ever shouts "Look, hole" even when at sea, no one ever man's the pumps or patches the holes.
Your thoughts on the parent post?
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
The Last HOPE was awesome. Adam gave a really fun talk and was really good from the front row! And when he came out with this information it was especially fun and really said something to the open flow of ideas at the conference. Hopefully, Discovery or any of the other companies don't give him any crap for it. Cheers. Some Last HOPE vids are available: http://hopetracker.donthax.me/
You're either misguided or disingenuous.
That wing of the party left with George Wallace after passage of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. Nixon was only too happy to pick up the so-called "States' Rights" voters, and pander to racists with his "the first civil right is safety [from black people]" rhetoric. Kennedy and Johnson's bravery in abandoning that voting block to the Republicans was heroic, and the South is majority Republican to this day.
Your assertion that the Democratic party is the party of racists is moronic. You should listen to less opinion radio.
For a good reference describing some of the problems with RFID technology, check out the book "Spy Chips" by Katherine Albrecht and Liz McIntyre http://www.amazon.com/Spychips-Major-Corporations-Government-Track/dp/1595550208/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220142206&sr=8-1 This has been our for over 2 years now, but the general public has no idea on the capabilities or consequences of RFID systems. Give it a look.
At least credit cards will be safer than ever. Love it when the big players out there put their lawyers in line to assure my safety.
Could Discovery channel be going the way of TechTV? Might be time to move to another network to create a new, but equally cool show without such restrictions. (PBS anyone?)
Besides, I hear our similarly disenfranchised friend Leo LaPorte might be looking for work now that his canadian "Call for Help" style shows apparently fell through the cracks last month. (Sorry man...)
So, would a nice merger of the original Screen Savers and Mythbusters be too much to ask?
8==8 Bones 8==8
Is this a problem? NO! Let me explain: A bunch of F/OSS-style security-conscious researchers should get together with some donated funds to make a documentary about how hackable this stuff is. It should be based only on factual information and the testimony of experts in the field, with evidence to back it up according to the highest practices of science and law. As an extra bonus, they should gather up as much evidence and documentation about this episode of lawyering up, and actually include that in the program! That should also be backed up by tons of evidence. The program should be widely disseminated. The program should be very carefully made so that when the wolves come to sue its makers, all evidence will show that this is free speech, common knowledge, important information for people to know, etc., and when the wolves come, there should be widespread dissemination that companies that know about these flaws are trying to use legal bullying to bury the story in order to prevent the public from finding out about them. I'm talking full-page ads in the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Los Angeles Times, and other major newspapers, ads on the Internet and on television, reporters contacted to write stories about it, etc. There should be such a commotion that these companies and their stupid lawyers will back down and the companies start working on a fix for the flaws.
McCain/Palin '08. Now THAT's hope and change!
Who wouldn't want someone in office who knew about how law works
Because lawyers are not leaders and the law is the property of the people, not the specialists that manage it. If anything lawyers should be like secretaries to the government, organizers of the law, but that the law is something requires specialists to deal with speaks to a self-perpetuating class of government than it does a real democracy.
After all, we computer people organize far larger things and make it more accessible to more people and in language far more precise than the law will ever be. The US code might be some monster sized thing, but I guarantee that the Linux operating system is probably larger and much more precisely stated, and, there's not a single part of it that is really that difficult to understand, if you work at it a bit. There's plenty of cross referencing, people to talk to.
For every evil, coke-headed, nihilistic, self-serving lawyer out there, there's a hard-working, fair-minded lawyer who's looking to 'stick it' to the man and all the other sell-out lawyers.
If anything, the lawyers who are fair minded tend to more be with the "the man", because corporate law is more often a 9-5 affair. On the other hand, being a plaintiff's attorney, wanting to stick it to the man, can make you rich and famous, but it is also grueling work. So your greedy and ambitious and more deceitiful people tend to be on the plaintiff side.
With that said, the plantiff's lawyers I had as clients once upon a time were among the most interesting people on the planet earth. And, yeah, some of the people that get sued for billions really do deserve it, and also, some people don't. To a certain extent, your best class action firms make the bread and butter suing some people that really don't deserve to be sued, but then they'll fund a few cases where people really do deserve to be sued and it gets all weird when you have guys at the top of the law bar pointing out that they knew and got better grades in law school than various judges on the federal circuit. It's a very chummy affair.
This is my sig.
Discovery is doing the right thing.
Just to be safe they should keep this episode locked away in a secure vault out in the middle of nowhere guarded by a lock which requires two RFID keys to open so that it will never see the light of day.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
There are good lawyers and bad lawyers.
But the only people who decide if bad lawyers deserve to be punished are other lawyers.
That's the same bullshit self-regulation that got us the entire credit reporting industry and other systemically fucked up industries.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
If there wasn't any lawyers, we could all just gang up and kick the shit out of the greedy people and take our stuff back.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
Unless they are blowing stuff up people probably wouldn't care too much to watch anyways. This information is already known on the 'net and applies to all RFID's. Its not really an urban legend anyways, its pretty common knowledge to any techie that RFID's are inherently insecure if someone brings a scanner up to it.
If there weren't any lawyers, you wouldn't have any stuff in the first place because someone would have already ganged up and kicked the shit out of you.
Only the biggest, fastest, and strongest is free in a lawless environment. Corporations don't need the law to collect power, but individuals do to fight it.
There have been studies showing the RFIDs can be read for some distance - maybe 2-3 feet, maybe more with LOTS of power - and common parts do not encrypt the traffic. Thus if card number, date, and customer name are on the RFID they can be sniffed (and conversely). Simple matter to try a few brands and see which have what information. However what gets charged tends to be a few gal. of gas or a burger or three. Big deal. If all those elements are not present, it gets kinda hard to steal much without another leak (which might be enough by itself).
"Texas Instruments comes on [a scheduled conference call] along with chief legal counsel for American Express, Visa, Discover, and everybody else... "
After discovering a flaw in one of Texas Instruments' RFID tags, researchers from RSA Labs and Johns Hopkins University say they plan to continue their testing with exploits against other RFID equipment.
Doesn't look like the secret everyone thinks it is. Note the date. And this just from a few seconds with Google.
Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
Especially when it comes to things that might be used for criminal ends. Reason is, most criminals aren't all that smart. Especially small time criminals. To the extent there are smart criminals, they are usually the ones on top, the drug lords and such. The small time criminals usually aren't the sort of people who do research or think things through. You can see this in things like copper theft. This really is not a very profitable mode of operation. Even with the price having doubled, copper prices are still talked about in single digit dollars per POUND. That's also the price you'd pay on a mercantile exchange, not the price a scrap dealer gives you. Thus it is dangerous (both in terms of getting arrested and risking death if the wires happen to be live), a good bit of work, and probably doesn't pay any better than a job at McDonalds.
The point I'm getting at is that the large amount of petty, opportunity type criminals go for things their attention has been brought to. Copper prices skyrocketing made news so their attention got brought to it. They didn't realize that while the prices did double that was from about $2/lb to $4/lb.
Now as related to RFID, well Mythbusters certainly could lead to slightly more sophisticated petty criminals trying it. Right now, there's little information out there on it. So you'd be talking doing a good deal of research, perhaps some of it original, to build a device that could nab card numbers. This assumes that they've even had it brought to their attention that such a ting can be done. If they don't read a site like Slashdot, chances are they don't know it has security issues, and perhaps aren't even aware it exists at all.
However if Mythbusters calls attention to it, and shows a basic guide of how to exploit it, well then they might start trying.
Now I'm not saying that this means the problem shouldn't get fixed, or that it is Mythbusters job to keep it under wraps. I am saying that there really is some merit to the idea that if the public isn't aware of the problem it's not a problem. Sure there are people out there who are both aware it is a problem and know enough to exploit it. Perhaps you are one of them. However, are you going to actually do it? No? Then no problem.
I'm not saying this is the right way to approach the security of this issue, I am just saying that there is real merit to the idea that if the public doesn't know then it's not a problem. You probably meant that it would be happening but they'd be kept in the dark about it. No, not at all. What I mean is that if the public doesn't know about it, people won't try to exploit it.
I'll drink to that.
But now that I've sat
On the toilet it seems
The pee silently streams
Flushed down with security
They've RFID'd me
With Canadian Club whiskey
What?
of corporate-coerced prior restraint. This is probably illegal, even if they DO have a big battery of lawyers behind them.
Of course, Discovery bought the line, so the point is rather moot.
That is NOT the "culture" that I grew up in!
You can man the pumps, I'll man the liferaft!
I saw an article a year or so ago where a security consultant developer an RFID "reader / transmitter". He could hit a button, wave it a few inches from your wallet, read the RFID for your building access card, and re-transmit it to the door reader. BTW, encryption doesn't help - The reader just reads the encrypted data, and faithfully re-sends it to open the door.
My wife doesn't listen to me either...
Except lawyers *usually* can be counted on to turn on other lawyers and devour them, just like sharks in a feeding frenzy.
I wonder how much of this is in response to that episode they did a while back on security systems and showed how easily they could be gotten around (most notably the trivial to subert finger print scanner).
After making those companies look like liers and fools, I can imagine that the credit card companies would not want to risk the bad press too.
Leak it to YouTube.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Except lawyers *usually* can be counted on to turn on other lawyers and devour them, just like sharks in a feeding frenzy.
Spoken like someone who has never actually tried to sue a lawyer.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
That's correct. The only requirement is that you be best buddies with the president and promise to ignore the constitution when it gets in the way.
Cow Cube
if a big news web site like lets say.. slashdot did a news with a title like "CC Companies Scotch Mythbusters Show On RFID Security" or something,that would kinda ruin the whole point of censoring the episode in first place dont it?
Not like that will ha... o shi
Except lawyers *usually* can be counted on to turn on other lawyers and devour them, just like sharks in a feeding frenzy.
Yeah, but do they have frickin' laser beams on their heads?
Oh, they've learned. They've learned very well... 99% of these 'net meme' stories vanish without a trace in 72-96 hours.
Hey! I was in the room for that speech! Cool!
It just seems like an abrupt end to what they could've really explored, and I was suspicious as to why they clammed up like that.
This should come to no surprise, but damn, they rather air censored stories of explosive pants, but not even get the RFID through.
The thing is this stuff is so hackable, it's not much of a secret anyways. Every Defcon features something about RFIDs, so what good do they think is security through obscurity?
"If you don't do business with the credit card companies, you will have a very low credit rating."
The only thing a credit rating is good for is getting into debt.
"it is legal for a business to refuse cash purchases."
But it is illegal to them to refuse cash in repayment for a debt.
"The credit/currency corporations are the key to being "in the system" and if you are "out of the system" you will be homeless or in government housing in short order."
That's a load of nonsense. Many people pay their rent with cash. You can buy a house and a car with cash, if you have the cash. You can immediately cash you paycheck and never use a bank account.
My assault rifle guarantees habeas corpus for my friends and family.
You must be new.
In this country, we paint the hole to look like a window, then have anyone who calls it a hole walk the plank.
I don't get it...
Could you please put that in the form of a car analogy?
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
"Maybe that's why Repub's selected an air-headed pageant queen ditz for VP...easier for the puppetmasters to control."
It would be a 180 change of tactic. Last time the VP was the puppetmaster.
http://www.rootstrikers.org/
... are credit card companies pants?
In case anyone wants to watch it in context, here's a torrent of the whole keynote speech he made at The Last HOPE. He talks about the censorship of RFID hacking 45 minutes into it.
Worse, the companies will be continuing to claim how great the new security system is, even as they furiously try to shut up anyone that has a counter claim.
The crew all know there are holes. But this is a cruise ship, and you're worried about the passengers panicking.
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.
Sure, security is good. But so is accountability. If RFID is *that* broken, it demands public scrutiny.
So, the problem is not that they are incapable of making such an episode, but their cowing corporate overlords would rather they do not, for fear of losing funding.
To which I say, fooey!
Perhaps the MB team could do some side work, *not* an official episode, totally on their own, *without pay* (at least none from the boss), and just post the results to YouTube?
For extra credit, they could get Buster to help. Sure, he's usually around when things have to fall from a great height - so sorry, thrill-seekers, there'd be no smooshing of limbs this time around - but it would be poetic to have him carrying the card, showing that any dummy can get hacked.
Hell, I'd even pitch in a little to help it get made, just out of principle.
Yeah, but it was the signature on the receipt that was of value. The signature on the card didn't do any good. The receipt is a per-transaction contract of sorts - offer, acceptance and consideration in one contained element. Since the buyer's contribution of consideration is a "promise to pay at a later date," the signature is a voluntary demonstration of the promise. Basically, this keeps the contract from being forced by the offeror. [Note- "forced" has a legal meaning in this context.]
... no matter how much they'd like to.
By comparison, the signature on the card merely indicates acceptance of the terms of the card agreement. It has nothing to do with individual transactions - the credit card company can't legally obligate you to accept *any* charges to your account. Their business model is rooted in contract law, and they can't "pre-obligate" you in any manner
I'd like to know what other "Slaps in the face to The Man" were sh*tcanned due to bloodsucking lawyers. For example, I've often wondered if you strapped a photo slave strobe onto a license plate frame, would the flash blow out the image of a speeding/red-light camera?
You definitely want to patch up any problems before setting sail. If you're at sea with a bunch of lonely sailors, "Look, hole!" is the LAST thing you'd want to shout.
bytesmythe
Hypocrisy is the resin that holds the plywood of society together.
-- Scott Meyer
Corporations thrive because of government, not in spite of it. Without the law protecting their "intellectual property", feeding them fat government contracts, etc. corporations wouldn't be nearly the uncontrollable monstrosities they are today. So in fact corporations DO need the law to collect power.
You know what this sounds like to me? Yeah that's right, blackmail. I'm surprised no one else has thought about it. Discovery makes a show about how easy it is to break into something, then (surprise) The other co's don't want it air. Then their lawyers make a deal.
I've given up on Slashdot's comment scores.
Solution: Post all the evidence of RFID's flaws up on Wiki Leaks. This is a another scathing example of the American citizen being sold out by big business. It seems to me big business knows RFID is not secure, but are secretly colluding to shove it down our throats, and are trying desperately to keep it out of the spotlight.
It's going to air anyway.
Doesn't it just speak volumes that it's truly the threat of pulling their advertisements that makes Discovery gun shy? These credit companies pump out so much advertising that Discover - which has awesome shows and can drum up tons of advertising regardless - is afraid of losing their dollars. All that advertising for what is really a bunch of brainwashing is kind of the downfall of this country anyways - everyone is putting everything on credit and live by the whim of credit card giants rather than living by sound economics and financial independence. I'd say good riddance if a channel like Discover no longer carried their advertisements.
Funny that all the credit card makers would need to do to make "safe" RFID cards is to make a card that only transmits when a certain point is squeezed (connecting internal contacts...)
I use Windows... like a two dollar wh.. why don't I just go ahead and not finish that sentence.