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'Super Steel' Sought For Fusion Reactors
Smivs writes "New research shows how
steel will fail at high temperatures because of the magnetic properties of the metal.
Scientists say an understanding of how the Twin Towers collapsed will help them develop the materials needed to build fusion reactors.
The New York buildings fell when their steel backbones lost strength in the fires that followed the plane impacts.
Dr Sergei Dudarev told the British Association Science Festival that improved steels were now being sought.
The principal scientist at the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority (UKAEA) said one of the first applications for these better performing metals would be in the wall linings of fusion reactors."
...it will be only the third time that fire has melted steel.
bit shamefull to abuse this day, on which the world remembers the victims of this horrible disaster to make these statements how usefull it could be for science.
It is almost like they are happy the attacks took place.
Ceramics Compound Steel with NanoMesh stabilizing support. Or a couple of layers of transparent aluminium ... oh wait, we ain't supposed to have that yet.
Would the fact that we've learned something new about steel thanks to the way the Twin Towers fell, silence the conspiracy lovers?
No, of course not. What the hell was I thinking there?
everyone knows all you have to do is strip a gundam and you can have all the super steel you would ever need.
Monstar L
These are statistical inevitabilities!!
What's really funny, is you actually said something true, and completely contradicted what you wanted to say. Self-ownage FTW! (or whatever)
"Steel isn't strong, boy. Flesh is stronger. Look around you." Thulsa motions to some of the thousands of followers surrounding his mountain who worship him as the mouthpiece of Set. He points up to the top of a cliff, "There, on the rocks, that beautiful girl." He motions to the girl, "Come to me, my child." The girl steps off the cliff and falls to her death. "That is strength, boy. That is power: the strength and power of flesh. What is steel compared to the hand that wields it? Look at the strength of your body, the desire in your heart. I gave you these...."
Who run Barter Town?
For those haven't been introduced to steel and its myriad properties (depending upon alloy composition), here's a background article for you.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
The highest performing 'steel' currently seems to be what's called '"maraging steel', but calling it steel seems a bit odd since the alloy contains next to no carbon.
Tungsten is a lot tougher than just about any steel, and it's often used the coating alloys of for example drill bits used in industrial CNC applications.
The point of this article eludes me.
All rites reversed 2010
I made an incorrect moderation on this comment. Commenting to cancel
siener's youtube channel
Unfastened coins. Truthiness factor 11!
If it worked and we can make Fusion Reactors. This would leave some irony to the terrorist.
The Terrist may think they won because once we go Fusion we won't need to protect our oil interests thus mostly ignoring that area of the world, except for the occasional humanitarian mission, thus reducing our influcene in their countries...
However because we are not funding those countries with money they end up bankrupt in far more trouble then with the US involved.
When the Terrorist actually win they loose, because their goals will lead to their destruction.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Everyone knows steel doesn't lose strength when heated up, it's magic and goes from being a full strength solid to instantly being melted into a liquid at 1500C!
Haven't the 9/11 conspiracy theorists taught these scientists anything???
Would the fact that we've learned something new about steel thanks to the way the Twin Towers fell, silence the conspiracy lovers?
No, of course not. What the hell was I thinking there?
Well, we're getting WAY off topic from the original story here but people deal with loss differently. Some Americans have a near psychotic desire to be a part of bringing justice to those responsible. 9/11 affected us all in different ways. From losing loved ones to losing a sense of security to losing our rights, everyone believes they've lost something.
I listened to a This American Life episode where a man whose mother was raped and killed spent a large part of his life going over what had happened. He even went so far as to go to the jail and interview one of the murderers. He was so convinced there was more to it than just a random robbery gone wrong.
The "Truthers" (as they call themselves) are trying to cope with this in a unique way where they will relentlessly seek the truth--to a fault. They won't ever be satisfied because the attacks were so inconceivable that there must be an equally outrageous explanation for them. Occam's Razor is not in their reasoning kit anymore.
Personally, I think we just need to let them have their community and leave them alone and give them the information they need. You can't change the way these people think and as Americans they have this right to believe what they want--so long as they don't go infringing on other people's life, liberty & pursuit of happiness.
Following World War II, the public's imagination has gone wild from JFK's assassination to 9/11. It's simply something that can no longer be avoided.
My work here is dung.
1. "Steels melt at about 1,150C (2,102F), but lose strength at much lower temperatures". Try 1500C
3."The peak in this pliability is at 911.5C, but begins at much lower temperatures, at around 500C (932F) - a temperature often reached during building fires.". Nope. 911C is the equilibrium temperature of the Austenite-Ferrite phase transformation, but it doesn't correspond to the point of minimum strength in anything other than pure iron, and structural steel isn't pure iron.
2. "The roaring fire mid-way up the building heated the steel struts, and once temperatures rose above 500C the structure became elastic". Try plastic, not elastic. In structures elastic=good, plastic=bad.
I know they produce stylish, compact and inexpensive wall-linings for fusion reactors, but the self-assembly is a fucking nightmare, and you always end up spending at least fifty quid on candles too.
Meta will eat itself
You know, that layer on Iron Man that makes him invulnerable to everything. That should do the trick.
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
It is not as if high strength hasn't always been sought after in steels (iron-carbon alloy). INcluding high temperature strength. The usual solution is various nickel alloys starting with the austenitic stainless steels and going up from there (HK-40, HP modified).
Yes, we may yet find some interesting corners on phase diagrams, especially via combinatorial chemistry and high-throughput experiementation. But please do not pretent this search is anything remotely novel.
For many high temperature applications, the usual solution is cold wall designs with refractory (insulating alumina) linings keeping the load bearing steels cool. With or without a (thermal expansion problematic) liner (usually austenitic SS) as a membrane seal.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Steel is used so widely, in large part, because it's cheap... Iron is one of the most abundant elements on the planet. Many other materials exist that are stronger than steel, lighter than steel, handle MUCH higher temperatures, etc., etc.
For a fusion reactor, however, "cheap" isn't going to be all that important... More exotic materials that can better handle high temperatures would be easily within reach when you're able to generate that much power.
The article completely fails to explain why we, for some reason, MUST use some (not-yet invented) form of "steel" for the walls of fusion reactors. Boron Carbide, Tungsten, titanium, etc., sound like much better options for this application. While this article sounds like a flimsy excuse to exploit this anniversary.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
The buildings were imploded.
So scientists will gain nothing if they
try to figure out how heat brought down
3 buildings; because fire was not the cause.
we used fusion devices to bring down the towers
but the problem with creationists, and 9/11 truthers, is that they industriously involve themselves in political process. the creationists are actually making progress in the hinterlands. the effect is that some poor children's education suffers for their idiocy
same with the 9/11 truthers: you can't just leave them alone. you leave them alone, and the next thing you know, there is a vote being made in the pennsylvania senate asking for a $100 million state investigation into the "real" reason the fourth airplane crashed in pennsylvania. more press coverage, more trolling, more idiocy
it would be nice to let silly people be silly people by themselves. and for most classes of silly people, you are right, you can do that. but for classes of silly people who actively seek to have their silliness crammed down the throats of others, we must actively push back against that
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Steel just isn't good enough, something like a fusion reactor needs more Magical metals, for example they could look into using Mythril or Adamantite for getting some super strong metal walls...
By 1991, 92 groups of researchers from 10 different countries had reported excess heat, tritium, neutrons or other nuclear effects.[73] Over 3,000 cold fusion papers have been published including about 1,000 in peer-reviewed journals (see indices in further reading, below). In March 1995, Dr. Edmund Storms compiled a list of 21 published papers reporting excess heat and articles have been published in peer reviewed journals such as Naturwissenschaften, European Physical Journal A, European Physical Journal C, Journal of Solid State Phenomena, Physical Review A, Journal of Electroanalytical Chemistry, Japanese Journal of Applied Physics, and Journal of Fusion Energy (see indices in further reading, below).
The generation of excess heat has been reported by (among others):
* Michael McKubre, director of the Energy Research Center at SRI International,
* Giuliano Preparata (ENEA (Italy))
* Richard A. Oriani (University of Minnesota, in December 1990),
* Robert A. Huggins (at Stanford University in March 1990),
* Yoshiaki Arata (Osaka University, Japan),
* T. Mizuno (Hokkaido University, Japan),
* T. Ohmori (Japan),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion#Experimental_reports [wikipedia.org]
"Despite a backdrop of meager funding and career-killing derision from mainstream scientists and engineers, cold fusion is anything but a dead field of research. Presenters at the MIT event estimated that 3,000 published studies from scientists around the world have contributed to the growing canon of evidence suggesting that small but promising amounts of energy can be generated using the infamous tabletop apparatus."
"MIT's Peter Hagelstein, on the other hand, said "cold fusion" reactions have yielded surplus energy from as far back as the initial experiments in 1989. Verification of these controversial results is not the problem -- many labs around the world have reproduced parts of the results many times. "
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/08/cold_fusion?currentPage=all# [wired.com]
U.S. Navy Report Supports Cold Fusion:
http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue44/navy.html [infinite-energy.com]
""Last March, scientists at the annual conference of the august American Physical Society heard presentations on cold fusion. Next month, the Second International Conference on Future Energy will be held in Washington, D.C. The vast majority of physicists remains skeptical, but at the Office of Naval Research, six of the nine experiments performed produced an unexplainable amount of excess heat.""
http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060808/REPOSITORY/608080316&SearchID=73253345954312 [concordmonitor.com]
"Researchers at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute have developed a tabletop accelerator that produces nuclear fusion at room temperature, providing confirmation of
also, if super steel is so important, I'll be rich from melting down my buns of super steel!
stuff |
At the moment its like saying "this will be really useful for when I genetically engineer a dragon".
I didn't think we were going to use some new "super steel" as the vessel lining (plasma facing component) in a fusion reactor/experiment. Current top contenders for this role are beryllium, graphite, tungsten, and moly. Most likely, some combination of them all.
The main chamber of ITER is currently set at beryllium - material with low atomic numbers are highly advantageous. I personally think liquid lithium walls are where its at, but I'm biased; thats what I did my research in.
However, a fusion reactor is going to be run with 'hot walls', where the vessel might be around 600 C, so I could see where you'd want an alloy that is still strong and can withstand 10+ T magnetic fields and not crap out. Of course, if we did come up with some low-Z refractory alloy, we'd probably use it in the first wall.
We didn't learn anything new. Whatever story you choose to believe, the only facts are that two planes flew into two of the strongest buildings on the planet, and then they crumbled like a house of cards. Structural failure, insider job, whatever; the only thing that could have provided any answers was scooped up and shipped off to China.
With all the evidence gone, all the rest is at best theories. And theories won't help you build any reactors.
Adventure, Romance, MAD SCIENCE!
Why not a month ago or a month from now Why today...?
No sig today...
The New York buildings fell when their steel backbones lost strength in the fires that followed the plane impacts. or not?
Aren't the magnetic fields in a Tokamak pretty intense? As in, you wouldn't want something ferromagnetic inside?
I thought the leading candidate was vanadium, for its low neutron capture cross section and quickly decaying activation products.
More specifically, magnetism causes steel to melt 100 stories down from the impact zone, leaving remnants like this: http://a986.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/72/l_a567c508f431db9f78e20057b5b59fb9.jpg
So your saying that the release of energy from the mass of 100 flaws of skyscraper falling wouldn't be able to shear and melt an iron girder, realy?! 9/11 was caused by a bunch of pissed off religious fanatics.
In the not too distant future, next Sunday A.D.
It's people! 'Super Steel' is PEOPLE!
if they build it in the USA then as long as they keep at least one high ranking fat cat and don't load the place with explosives the terrorists won't attack, so they should just build it out of united states flags they are resistant to almost every thing including corruption, theft and reason.
I think you need Rearden metal. -=rsw
There's always Rearden metal!
What do you mean, 'black magic'? A tube can be filled and if it is filled, when you fly your plane in, it gets in line and it's going to be destroyed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of fuel, enormous amounts of fuel.
...for a supply of Duke Nukems' balls of steel.
If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
I was going to say something about the twin towers failing becuase of thermite, not jet fuel - but that would be irrelevant, since thermite is simply a higher heat that burning kerosine...
just 'cuz it's a conspiracy theory, doesn't mean it isn't true.
but in reality their agenda is removing the rights of christians since they have no tolerance for that kind of action due to their beliefs
So by your logic I'm also "removing the rights of christians" if I choose to engage in pre-martial sex?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
...is NIST is correct about WTC7. If any small fire can take down a very strong steel building in a near-free-fall collapse, steel is way too unsafe in construction. This article is pure propaganda, rightly timed to maximize the inpact. You are living in a totalitarian state, my American friends. Look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEPjOi2dQSM.
So by your logic I'm also "removing the rights of christians" if I could engage in pre-martial sex?
There, fixed that for you :]
that was rejected by the status quo, and eventually became the status quo, there are about a million other fringe ideas, that stayed there
9/11 was done by al qaeda. there is no cover up. i'm sorry the real world is not as exciting as a steven seagal movie
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
in reality their agenda is removing the rights of christians since they have no tolerance for that kind of action
What kind of action? Going to church? Or whipping up homophobic hysteria?
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
Hahahaha, touche :)
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
what gays and lesbians want is the right to be gays in lesbians. what gays and lesbians do in the privacy of their own homes in no way affects you whatsoever
meanwhile, to deny what gays and lesbians want, that is, to be themselves, is "cramming down their throats", as you so homoerotically describe, the beliefs of fundamentalist christianity
in other words, to give gays and lesbians what they want doesn't negatively affect your rights and freedoms whatsoever
meanwhile, to give fundamentalist christians what they want dramatically infringes on the rights and freedoms of gays and lesbians
so you are angry that gays and lesbians do not tolerate your intolerance?
fine
but the idea is more rights and freedoms for everyone... except the right and freedom to deny someone else their rights and freedoms. understand that discrepancy?
what you want is intolerant. so to deny you is not intolerance of you. because intolerance of intolerance is not intolerance. in fact, intolerance of intolerance is pretty much a good definition of tolerance
what gays and lesbians want does not hurt fundamentalist christianity at all: you are 100% free in a world of gay and lesbian rights to continue being an asshole
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
genetically engineered dragons might be very useful for fusion research
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Super Steel? They're barking up the wrong tree.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
It's just someone trying to latch on to the inevitable 9/11 WtC links to promote their research. These facts about Iron/Steel have been known for some time. Materials research,and metallurgy, have been the subject of much research for well over a hundred years.
Carbon nanotubes and having amazing properties under tension, but aren't so great under compression. More simply put, carbon nanotubes are really strong string. But try as you might, you cannot build a building or reactor completely of tension materials (without changing the relative pressure presented by that which is to be contained. I.e, a balloon is a tension structure, but you have to fill it with pressurized air or water in order to give it structure). But tension can be used to distribute the load more favorably into compression structures. Think of the cables on a suspension bridge.
I am not an expert in materials science, nor an architect nor structural engineer nor metallurgist. Caveat Lector.
For those that don't recognize it, that's from, "Conan The Barbarian."
Very thought provoking. I should go contemplate this somewhere...
Outlaw steel in construction? You are insane. Steel is a great material. Industrial civilization is built on steel. If you want to go back to wattle and daub huts go right ahead, but if you try to make me or my society do so, we will kill you with swift bolts of steel.
is someone who willfully kills civilians in order to further an ideological agenda
its a valid definition
and furthermore, if the usa disappeared tomorrow, if the usa never even existed, there would still be "freedom fighters" in foreign lands killing civilians. because what terrorists are interested in is religious bigotry: restore the caliphate and exterminate nonbelievers. which is pretty much the opposite of what a "freedom" fighter does
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I don't think they mean what you think they mean. ...and I'm sorry but I simply don't see reason whyc this was posted today, or what it has to do with the twin towers (apart from the loosest of connections).
Are people so desperate to say "Twin Towers" that any old story would do? If you want remembrance, why not do a proper remembrance article? Why this? Did this make any 9/11 victims feel like they were being remembered?
No sig today...
Yes. Are just started a project where we build eight story building out of unemployed people. It's very easy to stack them one on the other but after couple of stories they start to wobble. It seems like they don't have backbone for the job!
You don't know what you don't know.
Show me how you're supposed to get electricity on a useful scale out of a fusion reactor first.
...but does it have a weakness to kryptonite? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadarite
You don't even need to think as exotic as that. Someone probably came along with a blowtorch and cut the beam during the rescue / cleanup operation. There are plenty of pictures of people doing just that. Indeed, the original picture linked was (deliberately) cropped to remove a couple of firefighters and a couple of cleanup crew standing right in front, behind and to the side of the cut beam. One of the crew is stood slightly to the left of the beam, bent over so his head is obscured but still visible.
As usual this is just another moronic "truther" picture which turns out to have a far more mundane and likely explanation. Just like their other moronic claims it will be recycled ad nauseum.
10,000 years after humans destroy themselves in full up nuclear war, you'll find the parts made of MP35N lying at the bottom of the ocean. It'll be the only thing that's still shiny.
As for stronger steel; nobody in the building industry really cares. It might be nice for the nuclear industry, but I don't expect it to transition back to the original use. The problem with "stronger" is that most metals get more brittle. That's a bad thing in seismic regions, where the hysteresis of a ductile joint is used to mitigate the damage in a structure. The other problem is cost. High performance materials (and there are lots of them) generally are a significant premium over A992/A36 steel. Most owners would use bamboo and baling twine if the building code let them get away with it, if it mean being able to put marble in all the restrooms. (Oh, they'll say they want it done right, until they get the cost estimate. Then they decide they'll just do the minimum.)
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Well, unfortunately *independent* investigation of the disaster, for whatever reason, was not allowed. The official investigation did such a crappy job, that they had to go in again months later and "reinvestigate".
;)
Yet with our new gained knowledge it is still not possible to explain how WTC7 collapsed the way it collapsed, the first and only building so far to do so from some small fires here and there. In the past there were much older buildings ablaze that just burnt out, but never collapsed.
Before someone comes out and shouts: "Conspiracy theorist! You're crazy!", let me point out that (before I'll be burnt with the rest of the witches here) I didn't actually mention any conspiracy theory..
At the moment its like saying "this will be really useful for when I genetically engineer a dragon".
Agreed. One of the problems to be solved if fusion reactors ever work is that the inner walls will, over time, become radioactive, which is a maintenance headache. If they could be made of some material that didn't become radioactive when exposed to heavy gamma radiation, that would be helpful, because then you could just turn the thing off and work on it, without having to use remote manipulators and robots.
So it's been suggested that running iron through an isotopic separation plant, like the ones used to enrich uranium, would be useful. The stable isotopes would be used to make the steel for the fusion reactor.
This idea might be helpful in reducing the operating costs of future fusion reactors, but right now, it's just a footnote.
freudian slip!
funny on a number of levels too ;-)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
what gays and lesbians want is the right to be gays in lesbians. what gays and lesbians do in the privacy of their own homes in no way affects you whatsoever
I'm not so sure about that. San Francisco is clearly the leader in being gay-friendly, and look what they end up with:
Up Your alley Fair 2008
You can choose blurred, or unblurred pictures.
If this kind of public spectacle is what we end up with then maybe some stuff needs to be pushed back into the closet.
So, coincidentally, where homosexual rights have been most clearly advanced in this country, we end up with public displays of:
1. Nudity
2. Masturbation
3. Urination on other people
4. Oral sex
5. BSDM
You'll note that several celebrants are men dressed up as boy scouts. I seem to recall on ongoing issue with the boy scouts and gay scoutmasters, yet here we have a rather creepy affinity displayed for boy scouts during an event that quite clearly is about gay sexual activities.
To be fair, I haven't seen a whole lot of lesbians engaging in this sort of behavoir.
I really don't care what two dudes do in the privacy of their own home, but it's instructive to see what happens when the city and community puts the stamp of approval on what passes for a 'lifestyle.'
No decorum, no decency. No self-restraint. Pedophiles wearing their desires on their sleeves. Public sex acts. Public humiliations (pissing on each other). Masturbating onto cheering crowds from a window.
Leaving aside simple blow jobs, several of the acts that occurred in that event are evidence of deep-seated, severe psychological problems suffered by the participants. Yet in the name of 'tolerance' and 'gay rights', we end up with these deranged acts celebrated amidst cheering crowds.
Being gay used to come with a great deal of shame. We have removed that shame, and in return, we see shameful, disgusting, revolting acts in public.
The participants of "Up your Alley 2008" quite frankly justify the stigma previously attached to homosexuality.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
I guess, as per usual most people haven't even RTFA. Here's an excerpt:
Surprise! It took a big bad nanny state government scientist to do this research. That sound you hear is ayn spinning in her grave. Maybe some government funded research lab will be able to figure out how to harness her spinning to power the grid.
We weakened/melted steal in the propane forges all the time.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
Why do you conspiracy theorists have such a hard time believing that a super massive jetliner slamming into a building at hundreds of miles an hour, and then exploding in a massive, burning fireball in a contained area could bring down a building? You talk about demolition explosives... what do you think this was, anyway? This was no different than if our military had used guided missiles on the building, and I don't think anyone would have a hard time believing that missles of equivalent mass and explosive payload would take that building down.
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.
purposefully or propagandistically
the issue with this parade is public displays of sexuality, something that would be equally disgusting were it a heterosexual event
shamelessness about sexuality is a genuine problem, i agree with you. so outlaw it, i agree with you. no one wants to see you getting it on in public. if you don't understand that, you should be punished. its a valid issue
but that some people have a problem with being shameless in public is nothing unique to homosexuality
so please, outlaw this disgusting parade. i support you on that effort
but don't think this parade is a direct result of gay rights or being gay. that's not intellectually honest of you. public shamelessness about sexuality is not unique to gay people. would you be equally disgusted if everything at this parade were geared around homosexual activities? of course you would. so be honest about what you really have a problem with here, and sotp trying to substitute it for an entirely unrelated issue
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Surprising how many stupid people present @ /. this morning. Seeing all the conspiracy theory posts all being modded troll. Wake up dumbasses, you have all been lied to.
For the record, my day job is a heating technician specialist. I have been working with all heating fuels for 30 years. I know exactly what can and cannot be done with kerosene, or in this case, jet fuel.
Here are the facts. Jet fuel is the same thing as kerosene, or fuel oil #1, with some additives for jet turbine use. In the twin tower experiment it would be the hottest burning combustible fuel available along with paper and plastics. None of these are capable of melting high strength structural steel encased inside of hardened concrete.
In uncontrolled combustion kerosene doesn't burn very hot at all. Maybe 1000 degrees if you're lucky. To get maximum heat from kerosene, such as your furnace, you have to inject it through a specialized metering spray pattern device (nozzle) @ 100 - 300 psi and blast compressed air through it to achieve at best 2400 degrees. Put a chunk of rebar in front of the business end of your oil burner and all you will get is very hot steel, nothing more. To vaporize structural steel you need ~5000 degrees. This is where the termite comes in to play.
The only damage the twin towers suffered from the collisions were broken glass, shattered drywall, twisted metal studs, and fire from 1000 degree burning kerosene splashed all over.
Nope, not on your best day can you bring down any modern high rise with a jet. For that you need an explosive to shatter the high strength concrete surrounding the 2" structural rebar, and then you need termite to melt the rebar.
This probably explains why the pentagon didn't collapse as the 3 towers did. They couldn't get demolition materials past security. Oh, and WTC7 wasn't even hit by anything but flying debris, but it was also imploded into it's own foot print. It was probably another target in the scheme but another plane was not commandeered and the job had to be completed to cover up the future question of found planted explosives and the resulting derailment of their evil plan.
So here is the jist of it, like it or not. Those acquiring power in 2000 knew in advance the jet attack planned and they knew the day. They sent in their own demolition experts disguised as everyday contractors to wire the 3 towers for implosion ahead of time. On Sept. 11 2001 after the impacts they imploded the 3 structures and for theatrical impact they murdered ~3000 civilians.
All so they could invade Afganistan to build a gas pipeline, and to invade Iraq so they could seize control of their vast oil fields and control global oil revenues.
So, how do all you voting republicans out there feel about being sodomized with $5/gal fuel prices. Of course with an election coming up they are relaxing the pricing gouge in hope of swinging the election to McSame. I imaging after the November election fuel prices will soar even higher regardless of whom gets elected.
But don't take my word for it, do everyone around you a favor and research the data for yourselves. Google "physicists engineers for truth" will make you a smarter person. Who knows you may even get laid someday.
"Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
he certainly mistakenly kills civilians with his policies, certainly. and for this there is remorse and attempt at restitution. do you see al qaeda feeling sorry for killing innocents?
not that i agree with gw bush. not that i don't think gw bush is a complete moron
but to equate what gw bush does with what a group that tries to kill complete innocents on purpose and by surprise is not intellectually honest of you
let's put it this way:
1. guy falls asleep behind a wheel of a truck and crashes into a school bus, killing 10. he feels absolutely awful about it
2. guy purposefully tracks school buses coming and going, carefully calculating and planning for months when to strike and kill as many kids as possible, but he only kills 5
guy #1 kills 2x more than guy #2. but who is more evil? it is why in most societies there is a legal difference between murder and manslaughter. one is evil, the other is stupid. gw bush most certainly is not a terrorist, just a retard
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Add to that that normally when proving someone committed a crime, you have to supply a motive. Easy with the terrorists, but I have yet to hear a plausible explanation of why the government would want to blow up a huge piece of New York city plus their own building (the Pentagon). The attacks caused a recession, the collapse of the airline industry (which the government had to bail out), huge fees for the government to the survivors and I believe New York in emergency relief, endless hearings in Washington and that associated expense, etc. I have yet to hear a "Truther" explain why the government would want to cause itself all the misery for zero gain. It doesn't add up.
And no, it wasn't so the military could invade someone either... if that was the reason they wouldn't have blown up the Pentagon. That hurts the military and doesn't galvanize the public for war as well as blowing up something like the Whitehouse or capital building, or one of the many monuments in Washington. So yeah, "Truthers" don't have much of an argument here.
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.
Don't touche me there!
STATIST!!! GET 'IM MODS!
With Carbon Fiber Composites and other composite materials it's possible to get much much stronger then steel, be totally inert to magnetic fields, more resistant to heat and can have much higher or lower thermal conductivities.
So why are they still even considering steel?
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
Don't forget Rearden Metal...
http://www.911blogger.com/node/17578
WTC Technical Information Repository
Attn: Stephen Cauffman,
NIST, 100 Bureau Dr., Stop 8611,
Gaithersburg, Md. 20899-8610.
Dear Sirs:
I have examined the documents you provided on your theory of the collapse of WTC 7 due to fires by way of thermal expansion. It is apparent that you have spent a great deal of time, effort, money and thought on this project.
However, like Ptolemyâ(TM)s Theory of Epicycles, you begin with a faulty and unproven assumption. It is also the least likely assumption based on the evidence. Therefore, although your computer modeling may be intricate, your results are completely speculative and have no connection with the reality of what happened to that building. You are simply âoeadding epicyclesâ to a theory based on a false premise.
Your theory essentially rests on two physical observations:
1. There were office fires in WTC 7 that burned for some hours.
2. The building completely collapsed.
Observation 1 is not in dispute, except as to the location, extent, and effect of the fires. You never observed these fires from inside the building, and you have no actual measurements of the thermal expansion and deformation of the structural steel beams whatever. You never examined any of the steel.
Observation 2 runs contrary to 100 years of experience with the behavior of steel-framed buildings that have caught on fire. Every one of them was subjected to thermal expansion, but never before has there been such a collapse. To now postulate that a collapse did occur due to office fires is the height of scientific recklessness.
Your consideration of hypothetical blast scenarios (Appendix D) is disingenuous, to say the least. You rule out a possible blast on the basis that it would have been audible, but was not reported. You consider only RDX and C4, which is RDX-based and known to be noisy. RDX has been in use since WWII and C4 reportedly has been used by terrorists. It is simply not believable that foreign terrorists could have gained unobserved access to WTC 7 before 9/11 (scenario 1) or during the 6 hour interval prior to its collapse (scenario 2). Why did you not consider the use of thermite, thermate, nano-thermites, and other state of the art materials? As shown by Kevin Ryan, NIST has extensive knowledge of and experience with the latter materialsÂ.
In contrast to the non-existent observational basis for your theory, there exists a large and growing body of evidence, physical, eye-witness, anecdotal, and circumstantial, that points to controlled demolition as the reason for the buildingâ(TM)s collapse.
Millions of people worldwide are in ready possession of this evidence. Allow me to briefly review this evidence for you.
Physical Evidence for the Controlled Demolition of WTC 7
1. The rapid onset of collapse indicates controlled demolition. Natural collapses begin slowly as the steel deforms (but this has never before led to collapse from office fires).
2. The symmetrical, straight-down nature of the collapse. In a natural collapse, the building would tend to topple or show asymmetries.
3. The time taken by the collapse, approximately 6.5 seconds. This is almost free-fall speed and indicates little resistance, which is incomprehensible if natural. Your theory of a slower collapse within the outer frame of the building is outrageous speculation.
4. The neat, tidy debris pile, a few stories high, with adjoining buildings essentially untouched. Such a pile is the main objective and hallmark of controlled demolition.
5. The molten metal and high temperatures observed for weeks afterwards in the debris pile. Only incendiary and explosive materials, such as thermite, thermate, and nano-thermites could produce these temperatures. Parti
I can understand the steel failing at higher temperatures, but I thought the purpose of using ceramic insulators was to shield the steel from those high temperatures. Wouldn't the research be better directed towards these ceramics?
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
So we should line the reactors with gullible hippies?
With the way they seem to proliferate I think that would be a fine use of natural resources.
Ursula Andress, Catherine Deneuve, and Charo, twice...
I believe that! And I believe they also had NORAD stand down, and are still in office!
From Wikipedia:
The Washington Post reported in its August 3, 2006 edition that:
"For more than two years after the attacks, officials with NORAD and the FAA provided inaccurate information about the response to the hijackings in testimony and media appearances... Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial account of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public... Suspicion of wrongdoing ran so deep that the 10-member commission, in a secret meeting at the end of its tenure in summer 2004, debated referring the matter to the Justice Department for criminal investigation. In the end, the panel agreed to a compromise, turning over the allegations to the inspectors general for the Defense and Transportation departments, who can make criminal referrals if they believe they are warranted".[13]
But whatever, *I'm* the crazy..... right?
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
You do realize that you don't need to come anywhere close to the melting point of a metal in order to weaken it, right? You only need to heat it past its annealing temperature, and it will weaken slowly over time.
Seems my comments have vanished without a trace several times now. Whats up with that?
The use of the 911.5 number in that article is completely gratuitous. They are talking about the eutectic temperature, a kind of phase transition at which one solid (like an alloy) splits into two different solids (like Iron and Carbon).
For your run of the mill carbon steel, this happens at 723 c. I found a phase diagram that gives a different phase transition for pure silver at 911.5 celsius. The same publication gives the similar transition for pure iron as 912 celsius. --- "According to Dudarev, the softening depends on a so-called phase transition that changes the crystalline structure of the iron. The transition occurs at 911.5C but increasing temperatures affect it gradually and changes to the structure can be detected at 500C."
Someone was trying real hard to fit 911 into this non-news article. Don't forget the penta-tastic '.5'. Look up the numbers yourself.
This news article was probably some kind of graduation task for a promising MI5/6 employee. To commemorate the 9/11 celebration.
Fusion indeed.
Fusing a myth into the culture, into conversations about other stuff. Therefore reinforcing the myth as a truism.
Nice assimilation!
Much of the potential energy in the building wound up as heat in the pile.
There was much more energy in the buildings mass then in the fuel in the airplane. I'm too lazy to do the math for you.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I'd not design buildings using a stack-of-boxes template. It's not particularly strong, although it is incredibly cheap. I'd be looking more to the designs nature often uses for very strong designs - spirals, helical designs, backbones, etc. A central "backbone" (based on a spiral column) that is large enough to support the weight of the building hanging off it would seem to have several benefits:
a) If supports melt, the risk of a cascading failure is greatly reduced - and even if that did happen, such a collapse should be greatly slowed down.
b) A spiral staircase is self-supporting. Ideally, the blocks would also be locked in place by design, so that blockage of the escape route is much less likely.
c) You can add more limited "backbone" spiral columns in the design, to provide additional structural support. Ideally, you have such spiral columns at different places on different floors, dispersing any collapse and preventing a cascading effect.
It would also have three disadvantages:
a) Developers throughout the US would go bankrupt (actually, would that be a disadvantage...?)
b) Floorspace becomes horribly expensive and would be of indeterminate, inconsistant shape
c) The entire USian mindset of uniformity and conformity in business would be utterly destroyed, causing widespread panic amongst interior decorators and shoppers everywhere
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Yes please YOU should use a little bit of critical thinking skills please.
Where the 40 floors above moving downward since the 70s?
Where they being held up by one floors worth of lateral supports?
Moron! The GP tried to explain to you and provided a link. I am just flaming you. Please go back to wherever you came from.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Why is someone at Slashdot completely censoring my posts to THIS thread only?
I have not trolled, I have not posted obscenities, just a short reply pointing out some oddities in the article. I posted it a total of five times yesterday, both anonymous and logged in - and each time it showed up ok, then vanished totally a minute or couple later. Some admin seems to delete them completely for no reason but disliking what I had to say.
I did not know Slashdot has sunken so low - Ive been reading here for 6 years at least, and never before noticed this happening. Isnt that what the comment rating system is for? But total, utter censorhip? I will contact slashdot administration about this later today.
lets call it ceramics, nanotubes inforced
I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
gunman grabs an innocent hostage, holds the innocent hostage between himself and law enforcement. law enforcement still has a shot at the gunman, but there is a real risk he can hurt the hostage
moral dilemma: do you take a shot at the gunman?
this scenario, in fact, is not esoteric, it is pretty much the dilema of all law enforcement, period. because perpetrators are always attempting to elude capture by entangling innocents in their retreat
for example: do you engage in a high speed chase with a perpetrator for a minor crime? you are in fact putting innocent lives at risk for doing this. this dilemma happens every day, in every legal jurisdiction on the planet, and will continue to happen forever
ALL perpetrators for any crime realize they can dissuade law enforcement by involving innocent victims in their retreat. your intellectual dishonesty or intellectual misperception is that it is law enforcement involving innocent people in the captruing of perpetrators. no, it is the perpetrator who surrounds himself with innocents in order to escape capture
so law enforcement continually, on a real time basis, needs to make snap judgments that take into account the relative risk of harming innocents in capturing a perpetrator, versus the amount of manpower required to do so, versus the the heinousness of the crime that demands action or not. its all one humongous grey area with a ton of moral hazard with potential horrible consequences. its not easy at all, and mistakes WILL be made. welcome to the world of law enforcement
this is real life. your scenario is not weird, it is every day. and the answer to your scenario?: get used to it. there is no answer to your scenario other than: yes, innocent people are often, and will always continue to be harmed in the capture of criminals in this world. forever
if to you this seems cold and callous, consider that letting perpetrators of crimes off without any justice is even worse for this world
furthermore, you need to recognize that is the perpetrator that involves innocents in his capture, not law enforcement
deal with it. this constant jeopardy is the way the entire world works. its not pretty
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Steel has no magnetic properties once it reaches 1500 deg. F. This is call the point of transition. The little molecules move around from a hex shaped structure to a cube shaped structure giving steel the plasticity of modeling clay. At this point a magnet will not stick to steel or hold a magnetic charge.
Take a coat hanger and heat it up until it glows red and try to put a magnet on it. You will see that it doesn't stick.
IT has nothing to do with "tiny irregularities in a steel's structure" The whole structure of the metal changes once it reaches the point of transition.
Cool image of the atoms but it is totally wrong. Ask any blacksmith, ironworker, or metallurgist. For one thing "Steel" is a combation of atoms of mostly iron but other elements. This images doesn't show that.
has no moral implications
i see
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/05/02/england.plea/index.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22598582/
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2007/02/2008525135351125887.html
anything else i can help you with?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
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