Red Flag Linux Forced On Chinese Internet Cafes

iamhigh writes "Reports are popping up that Chinese Internet Cafes are being required to switch to Red Flag Linux. Red Flag is China's biggest Linux distro and recently received headlines for their Olympic Edition release. The regulations, effective Nov. 5th, are aimed at combating piracy and require only that cafes install either a legal version of Windows or Red Flag. However, Radio Free Asia says that cafes are being forced to install Red Flag even if they have legal versions of Windows. Obviously questions about spying and surveillance have arisen, with no comment from the Chinese Government."

Comments

Where Exactly is the Danger?

[eldavojohn]

Obviously questions about spying and surveillance have arisen ...

Um, it uses RPM as a package manager so as long as the government isn't forcing Cafes to use a certain package repository or use certain packages, where does the danger of surveillance lie? I mean, I wouldn't trust the Chinese government either but I am confused why a mandate of Red Flag Linux upsets people in this case ... and a recommendation from the DoD is probably heralded?

Yeah, they're running an industry's tech core, yeah they're stating exactly what OSS to use but where is the danger?

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[winkydink]

And I assume srpms are also available? RTFSC.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[MightyYar]

I mean, I wouldn't trust the Chinese government either but I am confused why a mandate of Red Flag Linux upsets people in this case ... and a recommendation from the DoD is probably heralded

You said it yourself: mandate vs. recommendation.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[Iphtashu Fitz]

Well if the distro includes an RPM that was custom built by the Chinese government and is specified as a dependency for other RPM's then even switching to a different RPM repo wouldn't help. Or the Red Flag installer could come with an RPM that includes a rootkit or other backdoor utilities that the RPM leaves behind even when uninstalled. So even if you switch repos after the initial install it could leave the system compromised.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who needs to monitor traffic when you can monitor the hardware?

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[no-body]

&& rootkit preinstalled

probably a rootkit cleaner would fix that but the site to download it is blocked by the "Great Wall of China" - dang!

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[ShieldW0lf]

I'm confused.

Are there concerns that the Chinese government are going to be spying on citizens using the open source Red Flag operating system, or are there concerns that using the closed source Windows operating system will allow some group to spy on the Chinese?

The second seems like a greater risk than the first.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[Sylver Dragon]

Government recommendation: Hey, this stuff is pretty good. You guys should try it.

Government mandate: You will use this, regardless of how good or bad it is, or we will put a bullet in you.

Just a little different.

Also, that article you linked talked about an internal DoD recommendation. They don't really care what Happy Fun Time internet cafe is using.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[athakur999]

Or they could just make some code changes to the rootkit cleaners available in the repository so that it ignores any hypothetical pre-installed rootkits. Most people are going to install programs from the official repository instead of directly downloading the source.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[discogravy]

are you trolling? or do you really not know?

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[X0563511]

Yep, just like the rootkit they would put in the windows machine.

I don't see a difference, only that the government is saying "you must use linux".

Really, what's the problem with that? I mean, it sucks... but it could be far worse...

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[Hugonz]

They could easily set up a transparent proxy and mirror all of the RPM repositories if they really wanted...

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[Sloppy]

I wouldn't trust the Chinese government either but I am confused why a mandate of Red Flag Linux upsets people in this case

Maybe it's because the only conceivable reason they would mandate it, is that they're doing something in line with the very reasons that you don't trust them.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, I wouldn't trust the Chinese government either but I am confused why a mandate of Red Flag Linux upsets people in this case

No need for confusion. It's because most Slashdotters are racist Americans, so they feel everything the Chinese do is evil, even if they would be overjoyed to see their own government do the same.

(And since the racists have mod points...)

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[lyml]

Clearly it is not suspicious at all for the government to mandate installation of some arbitrary piece of software.

Me being a socialist Swedish person (we're not really socialists but you yanks like to call us that so why not roll with it) would not trust any governement that came with the mandate that people must use arbitrary software $foo which has low level access enough to be a backdoor.

Sounds paranoid of me right? It's not like several governments have discussed the ability to let there be backdoors in computers before. Right?

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[fugue]

Do you? Are they? If the Chinese government violated the GPL, what do you suppose the consequences would be? There was some question as to whether the license was enforceable in the USA; is it in China?

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[ShieldW0lf]

You said it yourself: mandate vs. recommendation.

So, are the safety standards for cars optional where you live?

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[MightyYar]

Wouldn't a better analogy be if they all made us buy "American Eagle" brand cars?

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[jesterzog]

Are there concerns that the Chinese government are going to be spying on citizens using the open source Red Flag operating system

On that topic, is it very easy to get the source code for Red Flag Linux and to compile the whole thing from source?

I searched Google for 'Red Flag Linux' which quickly led me to the English index page that's thin on information. The Download link only seems to allow for downloading an ISO, but I didn't go as far as downloading it. The Wikipedia article for Red Flag Linux states that it's an Open Source model, but doesn't seem too clear beyond that.

Can the entire Red Flag system be compiled from source? Not that it'd really matter, I guess. Most Chinese sysadmins would probably just install the binaries from an official repository anyway.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[James_Duncan8181]

It depends if you trust the core, or if they just leave a public key on the box that lets the intelligence services and police in. Also...surely this is the year of the [Chinese] Linux Desktop!

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[blind biker]

As I was saying earlier, I have Red Flag Linux 2.0. This is an old version, so what I say about it, may not apply to the current version 6.0. It does not come with sources.

I see many people here presume that Red Flag Linux is open source software. I think that's a whole lot of assuming without knowing jack.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[Anonymous Coward]

The goverment easily controls limited number of repositories. That's all. Then you are forced to used hacked code.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[RiotingPacifist]

how exactly would you detect a preinstalled rootkit?

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[Bert64]

Unfortunately governments mandate software already in many cases, the Chinese are simply being more direct about it...
How many times have you seen government websites or published information in proprietary formats?

I don't think the government should force anyone to use any particular software from any source, they should promote a free open market where people are free to choose anything they want.

That said, software companies through the american government and the wto are putting a lot of pressure on china to curb piracy... A lot of people in china simply can't afford the prices charged for proprietary software, and they don't know anything else so their only option is to pirate. By getting chinese people used to linux, they will have less need to pirate anything and thus comply with the demands placed on the government... It may not be what the software companies intended, but it's better for china than sending billions of dollars out of the country and leaving lots of their people without computers at all.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[Alex Belits]

Umm, hello?

ftp://ftp.redflag-linux.com/pub/redflag/dt6sp1/SP1/

At least it looks like they have both source and binary ISO images (though no directories with individual packages, and English site seems to be unmaintained).

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[leuk_he]

What if MS already put a rootkit in windows? And even it it is not there windowsupdate could always put one in there if they wanted to.

A networked computer is not a stable image like it was 10 years ago, it is constantly updating all kinds of components.

There will be coming a lot of linux knowledge from china result form this. What are people complaining. rootkits & spying on users is already common, and independent of the OS.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[bob.appleyard]

What if MS already put a rootkit in windows?

Why on Earth would they do that, if they can just modify the kernel?

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[DerWulf]

the implications of your post are simply insane ... and this comment with a +5? What the hell? Have any of you guys actually lived in a totalitarian state? China's first concern is *of course* what it's citizens are doing in the internet cafes ...

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[DerWulf]

Simply insane ... you are actually defending that the government dictates not only which flavor of OS you use but which specific distro.

You'll have the state sanctioned operating system and YOU WILL LIKE IT, puny servant.

Your comment about safety standards is an utter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring_(logical_fallacy)#Red_herringred herring ....

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[DerWulf]

why discuss the issue at hand when you can just handwave, generalize and misdirect? Using proprietary formats == mandating an operating system? Really?

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[neomunk]

Mount the hard drive in a machine known to be clean and then compare binaries?

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[ShieldW0lf]

Simply insane ... you are actually defending that the government dictates not only which flavor of OS you use but which specific distro.

You'll have the state sanctioned operating system and YOU WILL LIKE IT, puny servant.

Your comment about safety standards is an utter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring_(logical_fallacy)#Red_herringred herring ....

The regulation is not about what OS people use in their home, it's about what OS is being used by businesses who are providing internet service to third parties. When businesses are providing services to the public, the state has a responsibility to ensure they are meeting standards. Windows is known to have a multitude of safety issues that can lead to identity theft and fraud. If there is an affordable alternative that has been subject to government scrutiny and doesn't have these issues, it's irresponsible for a business operator to use Windows.

The Chinese public do not have to get their internet access from a cafe, they can use their own computers and install whatever OS they like on it. Therefore, they are not being forced to use any operating system. So, clearly, it's YOU that is putting forth the red herring.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[dougmc]

On that topic, is it very easy to get the source code for Red Flag Linux and to compile the whole thing from source?

Yes, it probably is. But that doesn't mean it's free from backdoors. It also doesn't even guarantee that the binaries that are available were actually compiled with the source that's available. The binaries could be compromised and the source not ...

In any event, I'm certainly good with *nix, but I don't have the skills or the time to do a full scale security audit of the Linux kernel, let alone an entire distribution. If the Chinese government wanted to put a backdoor into a Linux distribution, especially one maintained in China, they probably could do it and could do it in a way that it would be difficult to detect. (Same goes for the NSA (selinux anybody? though I imagine it's been very carefully vetted by those way smarter than me, though selinux is MUCH smaller than a full distribution), KGB, whatever.)

Since the government wants people to install that particular distribution and only that one, and that the government is known for surveillance and such, I'd say the odds of it being open to them very high. And on that basis alone, I'd be reluctant to use it, especially if I was doing things that the government would care about. But if the penalty for non-compliance is high, and the odds of getting caught are high, then I guess you do what you're told, or you disappear ...

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[dougmc]

Well, at some point a rootkit is basically the same as modifying the kernel. But Microsoft might want to make it seem `amateurish' to make it easier to deny in case they were ever caught ...

But ultimately he's right -- you're trusting Microsoft with your computer. The NSA/government could force Microsoft to add a back door, and while we might suspect it, we're unlikely to ever be able to detect it, at least not until it's used ...

And yes, thanks to Windows Update, Microsoft could add or change this back door at any time.

And it's not just Microsoft. You're trusting everybody who's made anything that you've installed on your computer, and that list is huge. Much of the software (drivers, for example) that Microsoft ships wasn't even written by Microsoft -- so you're trusting these other vendors even if you only install stuff off the Windows cd and nowhere else.

Ultimately, there's three choices -- 1) write all your own software, 2) know enough to audit every line of every bit of software you use and actually spend the time to do this before you use it, or 3) trust somebody else to keep the software you use secure. And mostly we pick #3.

That said, when it comes to the list of organizations/people I trust, the Government of China is pretty low on the list, especially when they're making mandates that really only make sense if there's an ulterior motive involved, and I can only think of one appropriate ulterior motive -- that they've somehow compromised Red Flag Linux. Being open source increases how much I trust it, but I still know it could be compromised and not detected in many ways.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[DerWulf]

I wonder if you realize that businesses are run by actual people, like you-and-me kind of people. Not robots, not slaves and not servants but actual real people with real human rights and so forth. This dung heap of an argument is EXACTLY the kind of slippery slope that people arguing against gov't regulation always warn about. You give an inch and pretty soon people will advocate that the government can and should regulate any aspect of life. If the government can tell businesses what operating systems to run you, me, everyone on the internet has already as good as lost the fight for freedom online because if it wishes it can dictate the same to individuals for the very same reasons.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[LingNoi]

What's stopping you from installing any other distro and putting the red flag linux theme on?

They won't know a difference.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[LingNoi]

Microsoft wouldn't need to modify anything, they have a big list of exploits that they haven't got around to fixing which they could hand out.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell is pre-installed? The install before you install?

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[ShieldW0lf]

You give an inch and pretty soon people will advocate that the government can and should regulate any aspect of life. If the government can tell businesses what operating systems to run you, me, everyone on the internet has already as good as lost the fight for freedom online because if it wishes it can dictate the same to individuals for the very same reasons.

Yes, and people like you would have me buying whiskey with methanol in it, because regulations interfere with the rights of the still operator.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[flahwho]

Your'e a fucking moron. Don't post on /. anymore

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[DerWulf]

*sigh* yes, it makes perfect business sense to blind your customers and it's not like you there are 'courts' where you could sue for damages in such cases. Regulation is so awesome, there are NO alternatives! BTW, you still have not shown how regulating certain standards for a group of products has anything to do with making a SINGLE product mandatory ...

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[ShieldW0lf]

*sigh* yes, it makes perfect business sense to blind your customers and it's not like you there are 'courts' where you could sue for damages in such cases.

Gee, that's a great alternative. I can use money I don't have to hire lawyers who contribute nothing tangible to society to sue someone who has been making money hand over fist engaging in antisocial and exploitative behavior and has way more capacity to exploit the loopholes in the fucked up legal system than I do, and waste years of my life, and be blind for the rest of my life.

Who cares about damages, are damages going to fix my problems? If such a thing were to occur, I wouldn't want damages, I'd rather stone the perpetrator to death with my own hand and see to it that they never had the chance to do such a thing to anyone ever again. As far as your comment about "business sense", the whole reason we have regulations is because before they were implemented, this shit happened all the time and there was no effective way to prevent it.

Based on your posts, I'd probably want to dash your brains out with a rock too if I were to get to know you better. So, take your opinion and shove em up your ass.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[Bert64]

Mandating in an underhanded way, yes, which is even worse because many users won't realize what's really happening.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[DerWulf]

> Based on your posts, I'd probably want to dash your brains out with a rock

Sounds like your style .. makes sense, too, since you really seem to like all other aspects of fascism as well.

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[DerWulf]

Yes, going to jail for your choice in operating systems is exactly the same as having to download an "format x to format y" converter. I completely agree and you really don't need to have your head examined ...

Re:Where Exactly is the Danger?

[Bert64]

Actually, there are situations in many countries where you must complete government forms or other mandates, which are stored in proprietary formats, and not completing them can result in jail or fines.

In the UK for instance, for certain types of tax return you must use proprietary accounting software... see here:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/SelfAssessmentYourTaxReturn/DG_10013651

specifically the sentence which says "Bear in mind that HMRC's software only offers the supplementary pages listed above. If you want to send other pages online you'll need to use third party software"

There is no documentation available publicly to write your own interoperable software, so if you want to do anything beyond submitting the "supplementary pages listed above" you are forced to obtain software from one of the listed vendors, who have clearly obtained this information, most likely by paying a fee for it which places it outside of the reach of hobbyists.
If you don't want to do this, you have to fill out the paper forms which have a much shorter deadline for completion, and the government is gradually pushing people onto the online system. And by that extension, the chinese also have the option to not use computers at all.

So if you want to use a computer to file your taxes, you have to use software from the government supplied list and subsequently any dependencies it may have. Your alternatives are jail/fines or not using a computer.

In china if you want to use a computer to operate a cybercafe you have to use software from the government supplied list, which supplies the dependencies it has. Your alternatives are jail/fines or not running a cybercafe.

Do you know of any "format x to format y" converter i can use to convert the output from something like gnucash to interoperate with the government forms? Can i run one on my platform of choice and obtain it for free?

I hate having my freedom of choice taken away from me. Being told "you must use X" while extremely unpleasant, is direct and easy to explain to people why it's bad... Being told "you must use Y (and in order to do that you can only use X) is equally unpleasant, but much harder to get people to understand why.
And educating people as to why something is a problem is the first step towards having them stand up against the oppression and try to change things. There is nothing more damaging than people who don't care or don't realize that they're being screwed, that's why people get away with doing it in such underhanded ways.

Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

The year of Linux on the desktop, right?

Re:Finally

[VeNoM0619]

There will NEVER be the year of the Linux in China...

Re:Finally

[JayAitch]

It being the year of the rat in China. Red Rat edition sounds so appropriate.

Re:Finally

[Aphoxema]

Note there will never be a year of the Windows or OS X either.

Re:Finally

[MBGMorden]

Every time I hear this meme I imagine it being part of the opening voiceover for Season 3 of Babylon 5.

It was the year of fire... the year of destruction... the year we took back what was ours. It was the year of rebirth... the year of great sadness... the year of pain... and the year of joy. It was a new age. It was the end of history. It was the year everything changed. It was the year of Linux on the desktop. The year is 2261. The place: Babylon 5.

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

One major reason internet cafe is asked to install Linux is probably to restrict gaming. Internet cafe in China is vastly different than it's counterpart in America. Think of it more as a "gaming center" rather than a place to surf the net. A few years back most of them used to provides food and bed to lure it's gamer based customer to stay 24/7.

Over the past 5 or 6 years, there are increasing social problems generated by internet cafe. Parent's concern for their kids is a major issue. There are also a few incidents of unlicensed internet cafe not reaching safety regulation. One fire outbreak has caused 24 death in 2002 in a internet cafe in Beijing. Chinese government has been trying t o resolve these problems by introducing tighter regulations. Just to name a few: A policy came out a few years back requires all internet cafe to obtain a license, and no new license would be issued; Also under aged people are not allowed to enter internet cafe during weekdays unless accompanied by parent; All users are required to register wit h their ID before using internet cafe.

This new move is nothing more than another regulation to address the issued introduced by internet cafe. As most games does not run natively on Linux, the government probably expects to turn internet cafe away from the old "gaming center" model, into a role fitted more to it's actual name.

A rather ironic thing is, Linux was the choice for it's incompatibility with most games. So I guess YEAR_OF_LINUX_ON_DESKTOP=$((YEAR+1)) still holds.

Re:Finally

[mdm-adph]

I checked all 12 signs of the Chinese zodiac -- couldn't find the Year of Linux, sorry.

Re:Finally

[mad_robot]

Note there will never be a year of the Windows or OS X either.

*cough* Tiger *cough*

Re:Finally

[CoonAss56]

Now it's the Year of the Dead Rat

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because you don't know how to read Chinese astrology. Everyone that can knows that if you combine the Rooster (bird, Fixed Element Metal), with an inner animal of Dragon (Fixed Element Wood), and secret animals Pig and Rat (both Fixed Element Water), you end up with Penguin => Tux. It really is not much more rare than a year of the White Horse, duh!

Re:Finally

[ketilwaa]

What, isn't next year the year of the jackalope?

Re:Finally

[AuMatar]

So, we just name the next Ubuntu Malignant Monkey or Dancing Dog. Problem solved.

Re:Finally

[Aphoxema]

Oh, damnit.

Re:Finally

[Sloppy]

You're on the internet. You ought to know better. There are dorks here.

Every time I hear this meme I imagine it being part of the opening voiceover for Season 3 of Babylon 5.

It was the year of fire...

That's Season 4! (And no, I'm not telling you the combination to Captain Kirk's safe.)

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

or a sudden rapid increase in the compatibility of wine. That'd be hilarious.

Re:Finally

[geminidomino]

*facepalms*

See sibling post, and change your userID immediately... my have wounded my soul...

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

The next possibilities are mouse or monkey. So it would be for year 2010. Unfortunately 2010 is the year of the Tiger.

Sorry guys, the stars aren't right yet...

Re:Finally

[Jataro]

The next possibilities are mouse or monkey. So it would be for year 2010. Unfortunately 2010 is the year of the Tiger.

2013 Is the year of the Snake AND should be an "S" release.

Sexy Snake - The year of Linux on the desktop!

Re:Finally

[Goddson]

I checked all 12 signs of the Chinese zodiac -- couldn't find the Year of Linux, sorry.

funny guy The coming Chinese year is of bull,so welcome gnu to China!

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

That's exactly the current situation here in China!
Many internet cafes even deploy high-end PCs,like quad-core CPU plus 4GB RAM plus 320GB HD,which is obviously prepared for the gamers.

Re:Finally

[gzipped_tar]

You pretty hit it.

I'm unsure of whether it's in the government's priorities to turn the internet cafes away from the "gaming center" model, but adoption of Linux will hit the inet cafe owners hard. Loss of customers AND retraining/replacing the Windows sysadmins?

As for the suspicion of surveillance... If some internet cafe owner is willing to pay me good cash for auditing the distro, I'd be glad to find out whether there are any ;)

Re:Finally

[Anonymous Coward]

Rotund Rat would work, too.

Re:Finally

[tomofumi]

...but this does not stop gaming companies to write the linux version of their popular games in order to adapt the change. This may become the Year of Linux Gaming Desktop!!

In Communist China

[AndGodSed]

Linux for YOU!

Re:In Communist China

[Anonymous Coward]

2009 is the year of the Linux Chinese Internet Cafe Desktop.

Poor Microsoft...

[Manip]

You know Microsoft has been pushing for the Chinese government to do something about the rampant piracy in China... They no doubt expected reduced piracy to lead to more legal installations of Windows but it has backfired on them hugely with this move to allow Internet Cafés to use Red Flag Linux.

Also the spying claims are meh. We already know the Chinese Gov. watch the pipes closely there really is no advantage in further monitoring within Internet Cafés.

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[Tubal-Cain]

...but it has backfired on them hugely with this move to allow Internet Cafés to use Red Flag Linux.

Unfortunately, this isn't permission (they already had that). This is now a mandatory thing.

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[Aphoxema]

Maybe it's the fact that Windows is an OS made from their good friends in the US, and Windows is proprietary, and we know how many Americans (US) feel about the risk of software working against you...

It's like the US Government buying Cisco routers made in China, how the US sabotaged a Russian oil pump station, there's only so much trust to be had, and when you have people from the Land of Microsoft being untrusting of Microsoft, how can you possibly expect a xenophobic, militant country to?

Next will be North Korea I bet.

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[lysergic.acid]

no, no, no. you have it all wrong. don't you know that piracy is theft? now that hundreds of thousands of Chinese internet cafes are no longer pirating windows and stealing tens of millions of dollars from Microsoft, their quarterly profits will surely skyrocket as a result.

after all, the BSA would never lie about the losses caused by piracy. if software pirates are actually stealing money from businesses, then surely any reduction in piracy will necessarily translate into economic gains by the industry. that is, of course, unless they made up their figures for financial losses based on the specious reasoning that not buying software from a company is equal to stealing from them.

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[Anonymous Coward]

The ban on Microsoft's products is just to reveal the real reason why MS hates piracy, while agreeing to uphold justice. Very chic: not because of the ban, but because of its message reaching the global media.

We all need to work hard for our living. Software programmers' notion of getting rich with copyrights and low distribution costs just won't cut it, the universe will find its balance. Despite your arguments.

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[Anonymous Coward]

Also the spying claims are meh. We already know the Chinese Gov. watch the pipes closely there really is no advantage in further monitoring within Internet Cafés.

A tainted distro could make spying on crypto significantly easier

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[blind biker]

Nicely put. I'd love to rub this in to all those game software companies that use abusive and irritating DRM to keep me from using their products legally.

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[ArsonSmith]

I don't think North Korea has a lot of computers at all. They don't even seem to have many light bulbs: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/dprk/images/dprk-dmsp-dark.jpg

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[spandex_panda]

That wasn't just an oil pump station... it was the software controlling the entire pipeline infrastructure and possibly caused the largest non nuclear explosion.

The article actually mentions red flag and the fact that microsoft gave China access to all the XP source code!! I didn't know that!

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[Anonymous Coward]

how can you possibly expect a xenophobic, militant country to?

Wait, what are we talking about now - the USA or China?

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[Daemonax]

There certainly is no real further need for the Chinese government to monitor internet cafe's anymore than they do. They have an army of internet police that delete forum posts and block websites (I wonder how they delete forum posts? Are only forums where these police are moderators, allowed?), they then have the great firewall for automatic censoring, and then every internt cafe has to have surveillance cameras installed (something that Noami Klein has reported on, as this surveillance tech is largely coming from American corporations who are forbidden from selling such tech to China, but have been able to do it via legal tricks), and all Chinese people have to show their ID to be able to use the machines (a laowai (foreigner) like myself wouldn't have to show ID). Even if there was monitoring software installed with Redflag it don't think it's going to make much difference, though perhaps keyloggers that report keywords typed in might show up some IM conversations that they couldn't see before, I believe most IM conversations are encrypted?

Trying to look on the bright side of things, reforms are happening in China, albiet slowly, and hopefully when the Chinese people get the freedom they should have, we'll have a whole country familiar with GNU/Linux!

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because the alternative to buying that game you really want is ... what, exactly? Reading the fortune files? Something tells me you're not "legally" using a damned thing.

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[Anonymous Coward]

...not buying software from a company is equal to stealing from them.

Not only that, the money saved by not spending it should be reported as income to the IRS.

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[Anonymous Coward]

>> after all, the BSA would never lie about the losses caused by piracy

Of course not!
A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, ...

Oh, not that BSA!?!?!?

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Order Kubuntu disk off website
2) Install on all computers
3) Change theme to red flag's.
4) Watch as inspectors don't notice a difference
5) .....
6) profit!!?

Re:Poor Microsoft...

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoever modded this Interesting has a very strong sense of sarcasm

Fitting Name

[cabjf]

A red flag should go up when you are forced to use an operating system designated by the government.

Re:Fitting Name

[Improv]

Unlike that designated by a corporation one works for? :)

Re:Fitting Name

[Anonymous Coward]

Like the NSA with Vista and SELinux?

Re:Fitting Name

[blueg3]

The government forces you to use either Vista or Linux with SELinux enabled?

You must work for the government, then. I don't think that's exactly what parent poster had in mind.

Re:Fitting Name

[fbjon]

At least the corporation pays for the privilege.

Re:Fitting Name

[plnix0]

Unless said corporation is forcing one to work, yes.

The UI is Hilariously Windows-ish

[eldavojohn]

If you don't think Red Flag is meant to be a Windows replacement, take a look at Wikipedia's screen shot of Version 6 (presumably out of the box).

Isn't this the part where Gates shits his gourd and asks to meet with Hu Jintao? Then baits the large part of greater China with free software that he writes off as a goodwill donation? I mean, we are talking a serious part of the world's population ...

Re:The UI is Hilariously Windows-ish

[MightyYar]

I mean, we are talking a serious part of the world's population ...

That he has grown very rich ignoring thus far.

I don't mean to dismiss the potential market of China - by all accounts it will be the next Japan, and then after that maybe the next US... huge market potential. But MS isn't exactly doomed if people that haven't been buying their stuff continue to not buy their stuff.

Re:The UI is Hilariously Windows-ish

[couchslug]

"I mean, we are talking a serious part of the world's population ..."

Money spent on MSFT is money lost to China. It makes perfect sense to expand Linux usage and save billions upon billions of dollars that can be spent elsewhere.

Re:The UI is Hilariously Windows-ish

[truthsearch]

But MS isn't exactly doomed if people that haven't been buying their stuff continue to not buy their stuff.

Actually they might be. MS has always counted on Windows sales, which are mostly from new computer sales (OEM) and corporate licensing. Corporate licensing is stagnating somewhat with Vista uptake being slow and market saturation in the US. If China isn't Microsoft's next big growth market, they have few other places to look for large sales increases. And people are getting tired of the periodic costly upgrades when they see little benefit, so upgrade sales will likely slow down over time.

Microsoft's relying on China for their sales numbers to remain high into the future.

Re:The UI is Hilariously Windows-ish

[db32]

Actually, I think this is the part where China demands the source code to examine before allowing it to be used again...

Re:The UI is Hilariously Windows-ish

[Mozk]

IANAL, but isn't that theme a huge copyright infringement, even in China considering the Berne Convention? I mean a user downloading some Windows theme for personal use is probably legal and nobody gives a shit anyway, but the Chinese government is installing this everywhere. They're not really profiting, but it just seems wrong.

Re:The UI is Hilariously Windows-ish

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks to me like Linspire should be the one worried. Didn't Red Flag actually rip off their desktop?

Re:The UI is Hilariously Windows-ish

[Belial6]

Yes, Microsoft is a growth company. I'm not convinced that they will be able to figure out how to make the transition to a mature industry.

Re:The UI is Hilariously Windows-ish

[syousef]

If you don't think Red Flag is meant to be a Windows replacement, take a look at Wikipedia's screen shot of Version 6 (presumably out of the box).

What I found most interesting was that it looks like XP and not Vista.

Re:The UI is Hilariously Windows-ish

[Anonymous Coward]

shits his gourd

Nice turn of phrase!

unintended consequences

[nycguy]

Perhaps Microsoft will complain less about piracy if governments force people to replace pirated versions of Windows with Linux instead of forcing them to buy Windows licenses.

In this case, though, I suspect that there are some other motives at work besides curbing piracy--namely supporting a local software developer/distributor over a foreign one and possibly the ability to better control/monitor internet access in the future.

What "questions about spying and surveillance?"

[seeker_1us]

TFA doesn't mention any. What they DO mention is "They're also not happy about the fees for Red Flag Linux, which are more than $700."

So what's with the FUD?

Seriously, this is about the Chinese government wanting to break MS dominance over the computer OS in china. If anyone was worried about "surveilance" they could install packages compiled from source so they knew what was in there.

Re:What "questions about spying and surveillance?"

[orkysoft]

That's $2 to compete with the $3 MS Windows XP Starter Edition, plus $699 for the SCO licenses. Total is $701, which is more than $700.

Re:What "questions about spying and surveillance?"

[MightyYar]

What "questions about spying and surveillance?" TFA doesn't mention any.

Did you read the same article I did? From TFA:
It quoted Xiao Qiang, director of the California-based China Internet Project, as saying the new rules would help authorities regulate Internet cafes that now operate on the margins of the law, and allow them to undertake heightened surveillance.

3 full paragraphs in the article discuss surveillance.

Re:What "questions about spying and surveillance?"

[Anonymous Coward]

oh my, another moron lost in linux land. do you really think that the chinese government gives a damn about licensing? you have no idea what goes on over there and your post confirms this.

In other news

[goombah99]

Windows market share suddenly drops below 50%

Re:In other news

[SatanicPuppy]

...While number of licensed copies remains the same.

You can't spot the obvious danger?

[MikeRT]

Who do you think controls the RPM repository that Red Flag uses? A company in league with the PRC government.

Re:You can't spot the obvious danger?

[mweather]

Every company in China is in league with the PRC, including American companies.

Re:You can't spot the obvious danger?

[chrb]

And you think that Yahoo, Google, Cisco, Microsoft etc. aren't in league with the PRC government? In order to do business in China, you have to do as the government say. Actually, it kind of works like that in every nation...

The backdoor fears are being overblown, this is open source after all. It would be trivial to compare the binary packages installed on one of the internet cafe computers with a standard Red Flag install to see if any have been modified. Then strace or disassemble the modified binary to find out what it is doing. If you're worried that the entire Red Flag distribution might be compromised, consider that the Chinese government is recommending that this distribution be used on government and corporate computers. If there were a deliberately introduced backdoor, then it is highly likely that either a Western security researcher, or the NSA, would find it, and then be able to gain access to the Chinese computers. Thus the Chinese government actually has a very strong motive to ensure that there isn't a generic backdoor. And again, finding such a backdoor would be trivial - all you have to do is compile your own distribution using the same versions of each source package, and then compare the output binaries. Having said that, Debian had a modified ssh package with a gaping security vulnerability for a long time before anyone noticed... but eventually someone did.

I really think that there is a higher risk of the Chinese government sneaking a backdoor into Windows through a Chinese-American employee of Microsoft, or through compromising a Chinese CDROM factory or OEM manufacturer, than of being able to covertly introduce a secret backdoor into an open source Linux distribution like Red Flag. Having the source makes hiding a backdoor very difficult - if they ever did introduce a backdoor, they would probably be quite blatant about it. And as for the Windows comparisons, we still don't really know what the _NSAKEY was for.

Re:You can't spot the obvious danger?

[Anonymous Coward]

And who do you think controls windows? The valiant knight in shining armour who's been ceaselessly fighting against the PRC government?

Re:You can't spot the obvious danger?

[whoda]

I really think that there is a higher risk of the Chinese government sneaking a backdoor into Windows through an employee of Microsoft...

Just like the CIA has been doing with Microsoft, HP, IBM, Sun, and Oracle and others for years.

Re:You can't spot the obvious danger?

[Arancaytar]

No shit?

The software that the government hamfistedly forces its citizens to use is controlled by an entity affiliated with the government?

What next - will Baidu block search queries for "Tiananmen" and "Falun Gong"? ;)

Re:You can't spot the obvious danger?

[Safiire Arrowny]

Proof?

Re:You can't spot the obvious danger?

[ozbird]

Who do you think controls the RPM repository that Red Flag uses? A company in league with the PRC government.

Is there any other kind of Chinese company?

Re:You can't spot the obvious danger?

[MaskedSlacker]

Two words for you: Asymmetric backdoor.

Re:You can't spot the obvious danger?

[blind biker]

this is open source after all.

It is? I have a boxed version of FRL 2.0, and sure as hell, it came with no sources and I don't know of any place to download sources for RFL in general. If you are so damn sure RFL 6.0 (the one we're talking about currently) is open source software, could you provide some proof - ANY proof?

Re:You can't spot the obvious danger?

[JAlexoi]

Larry Ellison founder and CEO of Oracle corp(from Wikipedia): During the 1970s, Ellison worked for Ampex Corporation. One of his projects was a database for the CIA, which he named "Oracle".
Does that constitute proof?

Re:You can't spot the obvious danger?

[chrb]

Not speaking Chinese makes navigating the Chinese Red Flag site difficult, and the English one appears to be somewhat behind, but I note that the .iso files on the web site have accompanying -src.iso files. I haven't downloaded any of the isos to check that they really do include all the source, but start here if you really care: ftp://ftp.redflag-linux.com/pub/redflag/dt5/

Re:You can't spot the obvious danger?

[Anonymous Coward]

a half-baked conclusion based on a quick read from a wikipedia article? My goodness man, you are an imbecile! Go back to digg, cacafuego!

Well, One Thing is for Sure ....

[eldavojohn]

This can only mean better support for a World of Warcraft client in Linux:

In China, because a large number of the players do not own the computer they use to play games (e.g. Internet cafes), the CD keys required to create an account can be purchased independently of the software package. In order to play the game, players must also purchase prepaid game cards that can be played for 66 hours and 40 minutes.[43] A monthly fee model is not available to players of this region. The Chinese government and The9, the licensee for World of Warcraft in China, have imposed a modification on Chinese versions of the game which places flesh on bare-boned skeletons and transforms dead character corpses into tidy graves. These changes were imposed by the Chinese government in an attempt to "promote a healthy and harmonious online game environment" in World of Warcraft.

Re:Well, One Thing is for Sure ....

[mdm-adph]

Why does the Chinese government want to keep it secret that inside each living, breathing person, is a skeleton waiting to get out and start swinging around a comically huge sword?

Re:Well, One Thing is for Sure ....

[dalhamir]

yeah, and for pretty much any game that wants access to China's market. Although, there is always the danger of removing too many sources of entertainment from their own population at once. Gamer's of the world revolt?

Re:Well, One Thing is for Sure ....

[bigngamer92]

Wow that's a really good point or Blizzard could mark it up as a win against Gold farming. Of course it's not South Korea so I doubt Blizzard is THAT worried. (Although a billion people is nothing to sneeze at in target market).

Re:Well, One Thing is for Sure ....

[BobMcD]

And likely more/better drivers for Linux as well. Any devices expected to be used in China, anyway...

Re:Well, One Thing is for Sure ....

[Anonymous Coward]

These changes were imposed by the Chinese government in an attempt to "promote a healthy and harmonious online game environment" in World of Warcraft.

Yeah. Because "harmony" as a sole purpose is good. Just ask the Borg.

Re:Well, One Thing is for Sure ....

[LingNoi]

The borg aren't that bad you know.. Everyone pitches in their fair share of work, no crime and while regenerating they enter a dream land where they all get to socialise and have fun.

I think the borg have a rough deal tbh they're much better then any other race in the universe. All hail the machines!

Could it be....

[Kiralan]

Maybe it is so the cafes are limited to software that runs on Linux? Does Red Flag Linux have/support WINE or an equivalent?

Re:Could it be....

[LingNoi]

It's linux so yeah, however one linux looks like the next.

There's nothing stopping them from install a different distribution and making it look like red flag.

Easy Solution

[kwandar]

... looks like Red Flag Linux ("RFL"), acts like RFL, but ... well, it isn't RFL. Aren't forks wonderful things!

Re:Easy Solution

[MBGMorden]

What good is a fork? The rest of the world generally isn't using Red Flag anyways and China isn't exactly all butterflies and tater tots when it comes to their directives.

If they say you have to use Red Flag, you'll be using Red Flag or they'll be "reeducating" you on just WHY you should be using it.

Derivative

[senorpoco]

In communist China, Opensource codes you.

Re:Derivative

[Anthony_Cargile]

I am reminded of the line from Revolution OS where the one guy was asked if Linux/FOSS is comparable to communism, and he flipped out: "No! And it makes me very angry when people say that!". Well, now it looks like it is, lol.

That is assuming the Chinese gov will be using some part of it for surveillance (undoubtably).

Smart on their part

[Anonymous Coward]

They have put all sorts of backdoors into products sold in the rest of the world. So, they are making sure that they are safe from MS doing the same to them. My guess is that they are about to call it quit with buying goods from USA even though it is already low.

Another motive

[theapeman]

If I were some non-american government then I would prefer people to use Linux. Not because of any backdoors that I could put in it, but because I could be reasonably sure that there were no backdoors put in it by the US government.

Re:Another motive

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn, why are those pathetic slashdotters whining now?
China got half of earth's population, the government is forcing people to use Linux, so half of earth's population will be using Linux soon.
So, all the "year of Linux "things you dreamed about are becoming reality!
But, I understand, you guys not prepared to it. Would be the same thing like you guys going on a date with a real Blonde supermodel, you "trained" so much for that day, and now that it is true you just don't know what to do...

Re:Another motive

[Paradigm_Complex]

If I were some American government then I would prefer people to use Linux, too. Sadly I'm not an American government.

Re:Another motive

[azakem]

Right. Because we all know how well the US government does with software, and we all know how stable Windows is. I'm sure MS would have no problem allowing more potential bugs in for a non-commercial purpose while it slowly bleeds market share, and the whole scheme would never leak out from any MS employee or be discovered by any paranoid techie watching the outgoing packets on his tubes....

Not that I trust the US government, but I sort of doubt its capability to pull that one off.

Re:Another motive

[Anonymous Coward]

Furthermore, it's a good avenue towards developing a strong technological base. I'm not sure if the Chinese can catch up with the proprietary software products developed elsewhere. But open-source circumvents that problem. There's everything to gain for local industry and nothing to lose.

Re:Another motive

[Yvanhoe]

Accepting a closed-source software from an economical rival as the main operating system of your computer installations is not a sane thing to do. The minimum that should be done is forcing Microsoft to open the code for confidential review by government officials.

Gaming

[number17]

I've been into some of China's small town Internet Cafe's and almost everyone was under 20 and gaming. I sure hope those games have been ported with proper language support or the cafe's will be hurting.

If it's Linux...

[notdotcom.com]

Why not look at the source for govt backdoors, rootkits, or whatever?

Re:If it's Linux...

[Culture20]

You really think the internet cafes are going to compile _everything_ from source? The binaries are undoubtedly compiled from non-open source code. China has more guns than the FSF.

Great News

[Anonymous Coward]

More Linux adoption is always a good thing.

Re:Great News

[Tubal-Cain]

Not when it isn't a voluntary adoption.

Re:Great News

[FunkyRider]

Your point only holds if its a fair competition. Do you use Windows voluntarily?
So it's basically a fight force with force sort of stuff.

Re:Great News

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but forcing Linux isn't better, even if linux is better.

On the bright side, this might boost linux's game support a little. (not only game of course... )

SELinux

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as I can compile it myself, I don't see the problem.

Re:SELinux

[atraintocry]

As long as I can compile it myself, I don't see the problem.

Off-topic but a good read:
http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html

Re:SELinux

[Anonymous Coward]

http://cm.bell-labs.cn/who/broken/trust.html

This is stupid.

[darthaya]

The internet cafes in China are not going to run Linux anytime soon.

Why?

Because the cafe users are gamers, mostly. They use the *cheap* internet connection to play one of tons of different windows only MMORPGs(And that includes World of Warcraft.) or Online shooters.(Used to be counterstrike.)

To ask those internet cafes to run Linux is to ask them to get rid of their source of profits.

Re:This is stupid.

[Tubal-Cain]

To ask those internet cafes to run Linux is to ask them to get rid of their source of profits.

Or it is to ask game publishers to provide a Linux version (or fund WINE) if they want any revenue from China (assuming low piracy rates for games).

Re:This is stupid.

[Vexorian]

If they just want to play WoW, that's fine, you just mentioned one of those games that actually work well in WINE. platinum in winehq...

Re:This is stupid.

[robkill]

To ask those internet cafes to run Linux is to ask them to get rid of their source of profits.

Two questions:
1.) Does the PRC government really care about internet cafe profits, or does it care more about having control over them?
2.) Does the PRC government "ask" the cafes to run Red Flag Linux, or is it telling them? If it is forcing cafes that have documented, licensed versions of Windows on their machines to switch (and pay $700 per machine to do so), then it's not "asking".

Re:This is stupid.

[FunkyRider]

2D Games can be easily virtualized/wined
Wow and CS is a bit tough though.

Re:This is stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Both WOW and CS work fine on Linux, GTFO!

Re:This is stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

hahaha... As if chinese private companies had a choice and their government actually gave a damn to online activities...

Re:This is stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they're gamers, huh?
I run all my games (Especially World of Warcraft) through wine...in Linux.

Yes that's right, you can game in Linux. Really.

Re:This is stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

And all you have to is spend more time messing around with config files than you do actually playing.

Where do I sign(!)

Re:This is stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that ought to teach a lesson for the gamemakers for ignoring Linux so long. HA HA. From my par

Re:This is stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Or we finally get really good MMORPG's for linux ^_~

Re:This is stupid.

[neomunk]

Under the line that says "Guest Troll from 1998" would be my guess.

Didn't this...

[Anonymous Coward]

...raise any red flags for anyone?

Year of Linux

[PolarBearFire]

2009 - Year of Linux. One of the things that set Linux behind is lack of promotion, if Linux and commie China becomes connected somehow, it won't be a good thing.

Re:Year of Linux

[LingNoi]

It won't, however that's never going to happen, so why worry about it?

It has to be an hoax

[Anonymous Coward]

It has to be an hoax, or there is a lack of information on the article.

Why the fee? This governamental fee is compatible with GPL? It's sound strange.

I know that "linux is free" doesn't means that you don't have to pay nothing but... yo don't have to pay anything for a copy if the other person gives you free

The Danger is Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Danger depends on your perspective.

It's not like the DoD and MS don't get along very well....

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/1999/feb99/cohenpr.mspx

Any sane govt with unlimited resources will want to keep the OS at home.

Besides they might have developed some anxiety from past reports.

http://edition.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/windows.nsa.02/

Funny how this thing just won't die.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/437967.stm

I'm guessing that Bill shot the goose that could have laid a billion golden eggs back in '99.

It just took a while to die.

So, how much MS stock do you have in your wallet???

Manpower.

[Anonymous Coward]

Good.
Now, dear Chinese, please increase your contributions to Linux. We need bugfixing and polishing (badly).

I guess though that english-oriented programming languages are a trouble for Chinese to start hacking.

Re:Manpower.

[Anonymous Coward]

Expect lots of perl code, then.

It's a silo. Anyone can set one up.

[khasim]

Anyone can download (or otherwise acquire) the source RPM's from other sites and set up their own silo that still other people can point to instead of the official government silos.

Re:It's a silo. Anyone can set one up.

[Hognoxious]

And anyone can stand in front of a fucking tank.

Re:It's a silo. Anyone can set one up.

[j1mmy]

you're forgetting that China filters heavily. there's no reason to believe any RPM repositories other than the one hosted by the government would be accessible.

Re:It's a silo. Anyone can set one up.

[Samah]

But you'll probably get cleaved and die unless you have 25000+ hp. :)

Re:It's a silo. Anyone can set one up.

[n.yusef]

Don't you mean 9000+?

Re:It's a silo. Anyone can set one up.

[Samah]

Depends which boss and if you've hit the hard enrage timer.
Bloodboil phase 1 cleave (5k) * hard enrage (+500%) = 30000
Bloodboil phase 2 cleave (12k) * hard enrage (+500%) = 72000
:)

Re:It's a silo. Anyone can set one up.

[Hairy Heron]

You don't know much about ssl tunneling do you? People in China do it all the time to bypass the filters.

Re:It's a silo. Anyone can set one up.

[jaavaaguru]

No, I believe 11 is high enough.

Re:It's a silo. Anyone can set one up.

[j1mmy]

ssl tunneling doesn't change the fact that the packets are going to a specific ip address, which can be filtered

Hey, Blizzard?

[toriver]

Does this mean we will get a Linux client for World of Warcraft?

Re:Hey, Blizzard?

[Anonymous Coward]

Blizzard here,

The demand of your enormous population, funded by your government, will ensure you get a linux version of WoW.

We will assimilate...

Have a nice day.

-Blizzard.

In Communist China...

[CompMD]

Red Flag Linux opensources YOU!

The Danger may be in your portfolio

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not like the DoD and MS don't get along very well....

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/1999/feb99/cohenpr.mspx

Any sane govt with unlimited resources will want to keep the OS at home.

Besides they might have developed some anxiety from past reports.

http://edition.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/windows.nsa.02/

Funny how this thing just won't die.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/437967.stm

I'm guessing that Bill shot the goose that could have laid a billion golden eggs back in '99.

It just took a while to die.

So, how much MS stock do you have in your wallet???

spying...LOL

[Ritz_Just_Ritz]

I have had the occasion to visit MII in China. They can already get a screenshot of what any iCafe user is doing in real time. I saw it with my own eyes. Combine that with their requirement that iCafe users need to show their ID card when they rent a computer and there is effectively zero privacy. These were windows PC's so I'm not sure why the hurry to switch to Linux. It probably has less to do with the actual operating system and more to do with the vendor who is supporting the switchover backhanding some government lackey a Benz or three. Welcome to China.

Re:spying...LOL

[wintermute000]

In some areas this is definitely going on. I've read cafe operators complaining that if they use any other distro, the officials say that its 'piracy' all the same.

Re:spying...LOL

[LingNoi]

You need an app which sends a random screenshot from 400 ready made ones when asked from the net. That'd solve that problem and they wouldn't know any difference..

oh wait, well you'd need to change the time and date, etc.. well you figure it out..

$700 Fee?!

[Anonymous Coward]

From the link,

Red Flag Linux is the name of a Chinese-made operating system. Officials in Nanchang are forcing local Internet cafe owners to install it in place of Microsoft Windows. An official from the the city's Cultural Discipline Team confirmed this to Radio Free Asia, which is funded by the U.S. government. The rule is apparently aimed at cracking down on pirated software. But some cafe owners say they're using Microsoft legally and don't want to change. They're also not happy about the fees for Red Flag Linux, which are more than $700.

Whose $700 fee? Can anybody in Nanchang or China fill us in on detail here? (Or is able to read relevant forum threads for us?)

Sounds like the anti-piracy legislation has been 'shanghaied' into being a cash-cow for local government. Which is business as usual is modern China, but still a presumption. We need more detail.

Comunism and free (as in beer) software...

[Anonymous Coward]

...play well together. Surprised?

Re:Comunism and free (as in beer) software...

[neomunk]

Very similar to Time Warner Cable in my area ("FREE, for $9.95 a month"), you must think "free" means "only $700".

Nice troll, but you can go back to telling us how you met Obama in a bathroom now.

A suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't *you* switch over to Red Flag Linux.....then you'll be sure there are no possible backdoors put in by the Satanic US Government. Of course the Chinese might have put a few in.

Let us know how it works out for you.

Oh Sweet Irony

[quantaman]

That's going to be a lot of new Linux users.

Imagine Linux on the desktop taking off due to support from a totalitarian regime!

Btw. does anyone know if Red Flag contributes any code back to the community? It would be interesting if they've submitted any of their changes to KDE, Gnome, or OpenSSH...

Re:Oh Sweet Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes they are, at least in KDE.
See here

Re:Oh Sweet Irony

[rpillala]

On the wikipedia page, you can read that RFL has joined the Open Source Development Labs, which may indicate some kind of cooperation with the rest of the community. I don't know enough about the interrelations between different OSS entities to say. At the RFL web site they don't talk much about the source code.

Hey, I got a box of Red Flag Linux 2.0 - never ins

[blind biker]

I just got it for shits and giggles. This is a rather old version (from 2002 or so) and I see from a screenshot that it comes with KDE.

Strangely enough, it seems to come with a CD key, and a longish one, at that.

that's insane

[circletimessquare]

you support an authoritarian government imposing its prescription for surveillance on ITS PEOPLE

why? because the us govt might spy on that authoritarian government

i am sorry, but i am not diplomatic person: you are a fucking retard

Re:that's insane

[MooUK]

You didn't read what he said.

He'd, given the choice, prefer people in his metaphorical country to use linux so that the US couldn't spy on them. He did not say he wanted to spy himself, although admitted that it was a possible route.

Re:that's insane

[w000t]

Actually, judging by your poor comprehensions skills, I would say that you are the (fucking) retard.

Re:that's insane

[Anonymous Coward]

Way to go to encourage people to take interest in your movie project. You'd kinda hope that the person you just called a 'fucking retard' isn't someone you might have not wanted to insult.

Tactical move

[Vexorian]

You may assume the Chinese government has installed surveillance on it and thousands of backdoors, etc. And perhaps they did... But I think that it is more than that.

They would sure like to have an OS in which they have a saying rather than having to trust American corporations, it is probably about control but not of the population but of their tech infrastructure. They are probably also looking in advance the sorts of issues TPM is going to cause them if they keep in MS' domain, not to mention all the annoying anti piracy harass they are to deal with,

if they want to stop piracy and still have an actual tech infra estructure, they will have to move out of windows and any sort of American-controlled software, and they know that with cybercafes they have something that is easy to enforce and effective to introduce their brand new Chinese OS to people so they can prepare further migrations later - worse case scenario, some gamers will be unable to play WoW anymore... something that the Chinese gov. would be happy to see, since they basically hate WoW...

. They chose Linux as a base, mostly because they can.

ObamaLinux

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally I'm eagerly awaiting ObamaLinux.

I find that splitting

[windsurfer619]

up comments is confusing.

Re:I find that splitting

[Mozk]

I'd always wondered if I'd been alone in thinking that. So many comments' subjects just read "Re: whatever" that I tend to ignore them.

irony, irony, irony

[circletimessquare]

that which was started to cricumvent corporate control, is used as a tool for authoritarian control

this is not in any way good for linux

it cuts to the very core of the rationale we all use for saying linux and open source software is a superior approach

if the software is coopted and subverted by an authoritarain regime, where is the inherent freedom that makes open software ideologically superior?

a corporate controlled software can make deals with an authoritarian regime, and withhold support for certain functionality. not that they do, but that they can. but with open source, the devil doesn't need to make deals with you, he just ignores you completely, and uses the software for dominance and control as the authoritarian regime sees fit

Re:irony, irony, irony

[shutdown -p now]

but with open source, the devil doesn't need to make deals with you, he just ignores you completely, and uses the software for dominance and control as the authoritarian regime sees fit

It's not in any way exclusive to OSS. If, say, the Chinese secret police use a pirated copy of Access to maintain a database of dissenters, is it the fault of Microsoft? How is OSS any different?

Re:irony, irony, irony

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been reading quite a few slashdot comments tonight, and your's required a response as every point your raise IMHO is wrong.

"that which was started to cricumvent corporate control, is used as a tool for authoritarian control"

"that" was born because people wanted to control what was on their machine, they wanted to understand, they wanted to help, they wanted to fix it.

"this is not in any way good for linux"

The potential of 1.3 billion developers and user of linux is bad? people being motivated (because their government might try to stop them playing games) learning how to use Linux, [games] companies "forced" to develop [games] for Linux, people using Linux; understanding there are alternatives; this is bad how?

the statement:

"this is not in any way good for microsoft"

is about 100% more accurate.

"if the software is coopted and subverted by an authoritarain regime, where is the inherent freedom that makes open software ideologically superior?"

I'm finding it difficult to restrain myself here! Is it not obvious to you that proprietary software is much more inherent to be "coopted and subverted"?

That there will be millions more users of GNU/Linux is a success of the Ideology, the ability for even a small number to learn how OS/computers/technology work will greatly enhance the countries ability to develop, produce new technology and goods.

I'm not at all sure if this is what the Chinese government intended? probably not, probably just to stop people "wasting" their lives having "fun", again a break through for the Ideology.

"a corporate controlled software can make deals with an authoritarian regime, and withhold support for certain functionality. not that they do, but that they can. but with open source, the devil doesn't need to make deals with you, he just ignores you completely, and uses the software for dominance and control as the authoritarian regime sees fit"

Exquese me!!?!!?!!! A corporation can make deals, like "oi commie, we are not going to add any backdoors to windows, because 1.3 billion are wanting to buy our software, Oh your not going to let us sell our software, well ummmm please, please let me sell my software to your people for a very small amount I'll do what ever you want with the software just so I can make lots of money."

I was thinking that you were a Chinese gamer, currently suffering from withdraw symptoms, but given your use of the English language and the complete ignorance, obviously your an American, who's BMI is probably higher than it should be.

No danger whatsoever

[hackingbear]

The new rules that went into effect Nov. 5 are aimed at cracking down on the use of pirated software, said Hu Shenghua, a spokesman for the Culture Bureau in the city of Nanchang.

1. Common mistake #1: assuming whatever a little municipal government says equal what the Chinese central government says. REALITY: in China, local governments don't pay a shit to upper government and just make up whatever rule they want.
2. Common mistake #2: assuming this has anything to do with national security, censorship, etc. REALITY: it is just a marketing maneuver some company trying to get people buy into their products -- by making it officially required.
3. Common mistake #3; assuming any people actually pay a shit to this. REALITY: if so, they would have obey anything from tax laws to traffic laws first before worrying about this.

Welcome to China!

Re:No danger whatsoever

[alemaco]

Mod parent up. I live there. I can confirm.

Re:No danger whatsoever

[MaskedSlacker]

I don't believe you. Chinese people don't get slashdot.

Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square Tiananmen Square

Certainly if it wasn't blocked before, it is now.

Re:No danger whatsoever

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux: so fucking bad you have to force it on others using legislation, and even then they don't want of it!

This should officially make it the communist OS!

Re:No danger whatsoever

[syousef]

local governments don't pay a shit

I'm unsurprised the Chinese government doesn't pay or accept such unofficial currency.

any people actually pay a shit to this

I'm unsurprised people aren't willing to offer such payment to the government (or it's rules).

Re:No danger whatsoever

[alemaco]

Actually, the 3 T's are Tiananmen Square, Tibet and Taiwan. Ah, and don't forget to mention the Dalai Lama.

Have I got through?

Seriously though, I teach. I never mention them in the classroom. If somebody else does, I just change the topic. As I know, in each class there is one student appointed by the PCC.

Re:No danger whatsoever

[alemaco]

appointed by the PCC

CCP actually, sorry for the typo.

Re:No danger whatsoever

[Smuttley]

Yeah I know what you mean. I have a few members of my class who happily say they want to be party members. Probably some more who do and don't say it. When I first got here a fellow teacher told me to look out for the student who turned up to every class and took more notes than anyone else ;)

The Student tutor who all the students go to if they have any issues is a fully paid up card carrying member, so I do watch what I say around him.

So far I've not had anyone bring up the 3 T's but I've had one guy talk about wanting to go to England and the US as they are "freedomlands". I just gently change the conversation. For all I know he's one of the commies testing me ;)

Re:No danger whatsoever

[alemaco]

I have a few members of my class who happily say they want to be party members.

And that's because being a party member is the only way of getting anywhere in this country.

But let's change the topic now...

Re:No danger whatsoever

[sych]

Hi from Beijing. Not using a proxy, not using an SSL tunnel. Not blocked.

Re:No danger whatsoever

[sych]

Ah, and don't forget to mention the Dalai Lama.

You mean, don't forget not to mention the Dalai Lama? :)

Re:No danger whatsoever

[Smuttley]

And that's because being a party member is the only way of getting anywhere in this country.

But let's change the topic now...

Too late.

Don't you recognise me? I'm the one who sits at the back with the tape recorder and the big notepad ;)

Re:No danger whatsoever

[VendettaMF]

Still here, still getting through. Nice try though. (Not).

Re:No danger whatsoever

[indi0144]

Yes, it's funny but it's also insightful as a "comunist OS" would not be a very appealing option on some countries who have an history of Left vs. Right related conflicts. Actually Microsoft is making a lot of advertising for home users like I've never seen before, some newspapers here are giving away Cd sets of tutorials for Windows Vista and Office 2007, and I know first hand that Microsoft not only gives the medium but also is paying for it to be bundled in the newspaper.... How long before we'll see statements like this?: "Would You use the Communist OS that is forced in Communist China? get the WOW!"

Re:No danger whatsoever

[alemaco]

I meant, since you mentioned the 3 T's you might as well mention the Dalai Lama too.

the predicable joke

[pinchies]

Whoa.. wait.. i'm seeing little red flags going up everywhere...

Sorry China

[lgordon]

I guess we screwed up guys. Apparently having a solid security model also allows the government to put in monitors and back doors at superuser level that a normal user cannot bypass.

Free as in...speech?

GPL violation

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that a GPL violation? A requirement to use only Red Flag Linux is an additional requirement, which the GPL prohibits. China is presumably signed up to the Berne convention, so bound by the copyright law which governs the GPL.

Re:GPL violation

[lyml]

Red flag linux licence says nothing about using only RFL (I assume). However nothing prevents chinese law from requiring the use of only licensed RFL.

Re:GPL violation

[LingNoi]

ah yes, but isn't this a case of china using Linux and keeping their modifications private at the country level?

; )

US software in USSR

[DrYak]

how the US sabotaged a Russian oil pump station

Well, technically Soviet Russia pretty well that the softwares they were getting were sabotaged (the situation isn't unique at all. Several companies had pulled such trick in the hope of earning money by subsequently selling support for fixing the sabotage).
Lots of programmers were employed to reverse engineer and fix similar "bugs" slipped in various US softwares. My mother was one of them.

The oil network incident was much more probably due to negligence and careless ignorance of proper safety procedure.

Hmm....

[cayenne8]

I wonder how long before the Lenovo laptop series come with Red Flag Linux as default OS?

2009 is the year of Linux on the Desktop

[ChrisA90278]

FINALLY, 2009 will be the year of Linux on the desktop. If Linux goes on every desktop in China then how long until Windows is the #2 OS in the world? There are a lot of people in China.

Re:2009 is the year of Linux on the Desktop

[LingNoi]

Forget Linux, I'm just waiting for the level of spam to reduce by 3000%.

OffTopic : Surveillance in GPL ?

[DrYak]

Slightly off-topic, but how in hell could you hope to succeed secretly be doing surveillance in an OPEN SOURCE software ? (GPL, in this case)

- As the source is accessible, surveillance functionality hidden in the source code would soon be discovered and published about. (Just as exploitable bugs are regularily cleaned)
- People would be free as per GPL to make surveillance-free forks of the code and publish "clean" versions of RFL (even more easy if these fix are done under non-Chinese jurisdictions)

Even if *indeed* there was surveillance in RFL, at least something could be done against it, thanks to the GPL. The Chinese would only be vulnerable if :
- either they are too lazy
- or the government explicitly states that the surveillance modules are mandatory (in which case it won't be a secret anymore).

Whereas, with proprietary Windows, the US could pretty much be already spying on the Chinese and nothing could be done against it to either prevent it or even detect it. The Chinese would be completely vulnerable to some foreign developers.

Re:OffTopic : Surveillance in GPL ?

[FlyingBishop]

Someone linked to the trusting trust speech earlier, but here it is again:

http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html

There are a thousand ways to change code without it being obvious that it is changed. Especially when you control the distribution of binaries. I'm not sure why China would bother with something as insidious as a gcc or g++ hack, but they could if they were intent on it. Also, they could just distribute modified libraries and not tell anyone they don't match the source. Granted, some people might slip through, but who really builds their entire OS from source repeatedly? I know, BSD and Gentoo, but we're talking about people who actually have work to do, and who obviously use a binary distro.

I got it, pirate from Red Flag!

[Suisho]

Wait... how is this Linux version combating piracy? Its combating the use of stolen software, yes (assuming they don't put windows back on)but the act of pirating the software took place already. And besides, I guarantee there is more than one CD copy of windows hidden somewhere in those cafe's. I would be curious if the distro has been modified for easier...*ahm* monitoring. Course, it doesn't stop getting on red flag and pirate windows from a cafe. Or an mp3, or whatever else.

China is not the USA.

[Anonymous Coward]

The GPL only applies in the USA.

Re:China is not the USA.

[Faylone]

Even if it didn't apply to China(it does since China signed the Berne convention) it certainly applies in more than just the USA. The Linux kernel was written in Finland, and Ubuntu from South Africa.

Re:China is not the USA.

[LingNoi]

Ubuntu is from the UK, the name is from Africa. Everything to do with Ubuntu apart from the employees is based in the UK.

Canonical is a UK company based on the isle of man (for tax purposes obviously), the main servers are in the UK, etc.

Re:Spy and Malware.

[Knuckles]

Do you really think you can get a clean copy of Debian off the Chinese internet? The view from the average citizen's perspective remains grim.

As long as they are using FOSS software, the integrity should be quite easy to verify.

Easy To Check For Spyware

[Anonymous Coward]

It's Linux, right?

Build red Flag from source and compare the binaries.

I doubt the source code for any spyware is actually released in the src.rpm files they provide to satisfy the GPL, but that's easy enough to check.

There are enough paranoid geeks with time on their hands to do this and catching China at something nefarious (and violating the GPL!) would be a hoot. That's what it would be.

Red Flag Linux or Windows

[code_monkey_steve]

"Cake or Death!"
"Uh, Cake please."
"Very well. Give him cake!"

Re:Red Flag Linux or Windows

[justinlee37]

"We're all out of cake, sir."

Re:Red Flag Linux or Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

The cake is a lie.

This can't be called free software.

[Requiem18th]

This is NOT what I expected the year of desktop linux to be like...

  But look at the bright side, that's lots of user testing!!

AGAINST FREE in free software

[kentsin]

That move is against "free" in the spirit of open source movement.

Everyone should against it.

Re:Where Exactly is the Debate?

[uassholes]

If the US govt. has a backdoor into MSWin (debatable, but Google it), and China puts backdoors into hardware they send to the US (ditto), and China is active in cracking US computer systems (don't even argue about that), is there any question that a govt. like China's doesn't put backdoors into every hardware and software piece internal to their country, considering that they are so paranoid about their subjects?

Really. Unless youv'e been asleep for the last 10 years, can there be any question?

Re:Where Exactly is the Debate? Followup

[uassholes]

Commie bastards: http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/19/1238255

Why is that even worth talking about?

[AlfredZhang]

Anyone cares to read the referred articles? This is only a move of a insignificant local government and is already criticized in many Chinese forums and online media sites. As a big country, things much weirder than this happens all the time. It is surprising why it gets singled out here. Yes, Chinese government heavily filters Internet connections and suppress any sites that it sees inappropriate, but it does NOT have to force linux on Internet cafe simply to spy on citizens. Believe me, it is much easier and inexpensive to spy on Windows machines. My suggestion: next time before you bring up something about a monarchy/communist/evil China, do some research.

Re:Spy and Malware.

[MaskedSlacker]

Non-sequitur. The fact that the integrity is easy to verify does not change the fact that they cannot get a clean copy. Knowing your copy isn't clean does you no good if there are no clean copies.

what kind of morons mod you insightful?

[circletimessquare]

it's an AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENT

do any of you understand the fucking concept?

"oh, we trust an authoritarian government to never FORK the source of an open source project! they might jail you for political dissent, but heavens forbid they fork an open soruce project!"

seriously, what the hell is wrong with you morons?

Re:what kind of morons mod you insightful?

[Hairy Heron]

So the government is able to stop people from modifying and recompiling the source files? Wow that's pretty amazing power.

Re:what kind of morons mod you insightful?

[Anonymous Coward]

Take source. Fork it. Add your own surveillance services that send encrypted reports to a central server without notifying the user and are buried in applications that will rarely (if ever) require updates. Set up the repository list to point only to repositories you control, and block all repositories not under your control through a built-in mechanism. Build it. Put ONLY THE BINARIES on the CD. Mandate that only this operating system may be used on computers in your jurisdiction. 95% of users will be prevented from modifying and recompiling the source files, because you'll have to know how to tunnel through a proxy to one of the banned repositories to get clean source code.

Re:what kind of morons mod you insightful?

[Anonymous Coward]

In response to:

"oh, we trust an authoritarian government to never FORK the source of an open source project! they might jail you for political dissent, but heavens forbid they fork an open soruce project!"

seriously, what the hell is wrong with you morons?

Fistly, even if someone forks it, you have to conciously use that 'fork', as the cource code will be changed. Think about it.

Secondly, it is spelled source, not soruce.

In response to:

I'm making a Low Budget HDV Filipino Horror Movie in NYC [bangamovie.com]

Blasting people and calling them 'morons' is unlikely to get your movie the kind of publicity you want.

No Reason for Concern

[rlp]

For anyone who is really concerned, the Chinese government can provide a compiler and they can build their own copy directly from source.

Re:No Reason for Concern

[LingNoi]

If you're really paranoid about complier exploits..

1) look through the GCC code, if you find something then go back to before that code was there
2) Find a binary of that old gcc version (on an old distro disk, etc)
3) Compile the newest version of gcc you can with old binary taking out exploit code
4) Repeat until you have latest gcc version.

It's not rocket science, yet you "omg exploit code in the compiler" people seem to be forgetting two things...

1 - You haven't found anything in gcc code yet
2 - It must be a really useless exploit seeming as there is no evidence for it to exist.

I assume you're the same group that thing the moon landing was faked.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

What's the point?

[cpghost]

While it's good for Linux adoption, what's the point here?

One of the main reason for using an open source OS is for its owners to inspect its source code and be confident enough that no backdoor is being hidden in there. But why would a visitor of a cyber cafe want to inspect the machine he'll be using there? After all, such machines are by definition unsecure public terminals par excellence, in free and non-free countries alike, no matter what OS they are running. Stuff like OPIE et. al. has been invented for exactly this purpose.

And as to fears from the Chinese government of US government spying on them: I could understand they'd forbid the use of Windows on their own military, or civil installations, and even enact a policy to encourage their private companies to avoid it, but internet cafes? Seriously, what kind of secrets are hidden on those machines besides credit card numbers of unsuspecting visitors and the whole enchilada of malware, keyloggers, viruses, trojans and worms?

Re:Spy and Malware.

[ElectricTurtle]

But... knowing is half the battle! GI Joooooe!

well that's awesome

[circletimessquare]

but since we're talking about CHINA, what's the fucking point exactly?

Re:Spy and Malware.

[Hairy Heron]

If you know it's not clean and it's FOSS you can pretty much remove the parts you don't want and its clean again. Unless I'm missing something here and you some how aren't getting access to the source code...

I, for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

would rather be Chinese than a nation of unethical dick-shooters.

Poor chinese people...

[Stormwatch]

Not only they live under a dictatorship, they're now forced to use a KDE-based distro! =(

yeah

[circletimessquare]

thank god the average chinese citizen has their freedoms fully protected. all they have to do is HACK THE OPERATING SYSTEM. they're protected, no problem

there are some seriously stupid people around here

Re:yeah

[LingNoi]

Why would they need to do that, only ONE person needs to get it working right then SHARE it.

They don't even need to use Red Flag, you could install any number of KDE distros then make it look like Red Flag. Do you seriously think the any government is competent enough to check?

and the last point, they're using Red Flag in the government too, do you think they'd allow backdoor into their own systems, they're not that moronic.

All this whining over backdoors, yet have you found any? You can easily download red flag no problem it's up to you to provide the proof..

Alternatives?

[Chordonblue]

I suppose he could play Chromium or Armegetron.

Better still, he could actually pretend he has a life and leave the basement once in a while.

There are always, ALWAYS alternatives.

They don't really need a root-kit anyway

[jesterzog]

Or they could just make some code changes to the rootkit cleaners available in the repository so that it ignores any hypothetical pre-installed rootkits. Most people are going to install programs from the official repository instead of directly downloading the source.

This is true, but I'm also not completely sure what need the Chinese government would need for installing a root kit in all Chinese Internet cafes. After all, the Chinese government already has an authoritarian control over what ISPs can and can't do. There's also an ingrained culture of censorship which is an accepted part of daily life, as well as a substantial amount of loyalty (perhaps misguided) to the government from much of the Chinese population. Even many Chinese people who've moved overseas still hold much loyalty to the state, either because they just do or perhaps because it's those with closer connections and cooperation with the Chinese Communist Party who are more likely to be able to afford to travel, or whatever.

I'm not an insider and would be interested to hear from anyone with more experience, but I get the impression that if the Chinese government required that all internet cafes must install some specific kind of monitoring software and report the logs back to a government monitoring department, 99% of them would simply do it without question. It doesn't affect their core business, and it's an accepted part of the way of life and of doing business in China. The other 1% would be forcibly shut down without recourse.

Re:Where Exactly is the Debate?

[arth1]

Yes, there can and should be questions.
The first one to ask is "who would want this rumour, true or not, to be spread?"
The second one to ask is "do those who might benefit have a history of disinformation?"
The third one to ask is "if country X monitors hundreds of millions of PCs, where are all the millions of people doing the monitoring?"

China is a new capitalist society with roots in communism, and has quite a bit of baggage to deal with. Among them a propensity to overregulate everything, and likewise for the citizens to ignore all the regulations as long as no-one is watching.

I don't doubt for a second that the Chinese government can and will spy on some of its citizens, just like CIA, FBI, NSA and SS will over here. But they quite frankly don't have the infrastructure to do full scale computer surveillance, nor any need to -- if they want someone arrested, they simply arrest him or her. They don't need to collect evidence and convince a judge first.
And just like here, if they want to monitor internet traffic, doing it at the ISP or confiscating equipment is far easier than backdooring individual systems. For one thing, you don't need highly skilled agents capable of accessing back doors with the required finesse and understanding.

This whole article smells of FUD and agitprop. Sure, China is designated the new Big Evil, and the US needs another Enemy to believe in right now. But seeing Chinese government conspiracies in everything doesn't make it true, any more than seeing communist conspiracies in the 50s and 60s made that propaganda true.

My guess: A canton or city government decided to go linux, and chose Red Flag as their distro. Some zealous and cerebrally challenged bureaucrats (I know, a tautology) then interpreted that as an order. And a newspaper picked up the blunder, and wrote a note about it, which was then picked up and massaged to fit the desired perception by their western colleagues who like to post propaganda against the enemy du jour, because it sells ads. Our local Ministry of Truth won't interfere, as long as the bashing is against this year's designated foe.
ICBW, but it seems like a much simpler explanation.

And personally, I think China is on the road towards freedom, even if they stumble every now and then. But we need to keep in mind that it's going to be a long march.

Re:Spy and Malware.

[Knuckles]

"They cannot get a clean copy" is simply an invention. Have you been to China?

Re:Spy and Malware.

[RiotingPacifist]

Do you really think you can get a clean copy of Debian off the Chinese internet? The view from the average citizen's perspective remains grim.

I don't know but it cant be that hard to find out
1) get debian ssh certs
2) go to china
3) apt-get update

or
1) hack a us box
2) compare ssh certs

or
1) phone a friend in another country and get them to read the cert to you

I mean im all for paranoia and tin foilhattery but seriously your just blindly speculating

Re:Spy and Malware.

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

Really ? What if they choose to send an infected compiler, that will enter a predefined exploit as binary into any binary you try to compile ...

(btw : an adaptation of gcc that does just that exists)

What are you going to do then ? Compile by hand ?

Chinese ordered to stop using pirate software

[Jonti]

Seems on non-story. This from theInquirer

A CITY IN CHINA has required Internet café operators to replace pirated software with legitimate versions - the officials primarily pushing Linux.

Nanchang, the capital of China's Jiangxi province has around 600 Internet cafés which will be affected by the order - yet some are moaning about the cost of legal software.

Cafes which don't adhere to this order however, will lose their licence to operate.

"We recommend the use of Red Flag Linux server operating system or Microsoft Windows Server operating system," said the directive issued by Nanchang's Cultural Department.

Although Windows will be an option for the cafes, Linux seems to be the preferred OS as officials seem to have struck a deal with a local Red Flag Linux distributor to install licensed software and provide two years of support.

Ren Xiaojie, general manager of a software distribution company said, "We're using domestically produced Red Flag software, and have set a standard one-time fee of 5,000 yuan (about £150) for each Internet cafe, which includes a lifetime license, and we will provide all Internet cafe owners two years of maintenance support for free."

The Business Software Alliance, established to fight software piracy, estimated that the rate of software piracy in China was more than 80 percent last year which highlights the intensity of the problem.

what is the ideological rationale

[circletimessquare]

for saying open source is superior to closed corporate source?

it is: if you have completely control over the source code, there are no "secrets" about the code that a corporation retains control of

this makes it very different when the chinese use access: there is still an outside hand in what china does. with open source, an authoritarian regime doesn't have to listen to you or consult you at all

it completely inverts the supposed ideological superiority of open source

Re:what is the ideological rationale

[shutdown -p now]

this makes it very different when the chinese use access: there is still an outside hand in what china does. with open source, an authoritarian regime doesn't have to listen to you or consult you at all

It doesn't have to do that with closed source, either.

Re:what is the ideological rationale

[neomunk]

The fatal flaw in your argument is that cracked games come out all the time. Crackers do NOT have any access to the source of the programs they are altering. With enough work (it only takes hours for most DRM schemes to be cracked) I don't think it would be all that difficult to put a backdoor in a proprietary program, which would then be hidden from techniques like compiling fresh and comparing the output.

Won't someone think of the children?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bait:

Parent's concern for their kids is a major issue.

Hook:

A policy came out a few years back requires all internet cafe to obtain a license, and no new license would be issued; Also under aged people are not allowed to enter internet cafe during weekdays unless accompanied by parent; All users are required to register wit h their ID before using internet cafe.

So "Think Of The Childen" works in China too?
You sure it couldn't have anything to do with monitoring and controlling access to the internet?

Re:Won't someone think of the children?

[LingNoi]

Even worse then America. This happens in Thailand too. Internet cafes are gaming hubs and there are laws preventing kids from being in internet cafes on weekdays and at certain times of the day.

Even if it were about monitoring it would fail because they government doesn't have access to the hardware the owner does which lets them mod the software or prevent any traffic they don't want from leaving the router to the internet.

Re:Where Exactly is the Debate?

[Anonymous Coward]

And personally, I think China is on the road towards freedom, even if they stumble every now and then. But we need to keep in mind that it's going to be a long march.

A goose-step march, you mean.

Re:Spy and Malware.

[LingNoi]

and bush did 9/11.... Get serious or get the fuck out.

not exactally

[Anonymous Coward]

http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_hack#Reflections_on_Trusting_Trust

it is very hard to analyze the security of a system even with open source, but it at least becomes possible.

Re:not exactally

[Knuckles]

http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_hack#Reflections_on_Trusting_Trust

it is very hard to analyze the security of a system even with open source, but it at least becomes possible.

You have a point, but we could just as well throw our hand up in the air, we are fucked anyway.

Stallman is wetting his undies

[Anonymous Coward]

This very situation is what the Stallmanistas have been dreaming their entire lives: forcing people, en masse, to convert to FOSS... or be thrown in prision.

Stallman always dreamed of forcing everyone to use FOSS, and using the GPL to dictate what software people are and are not allowed to install. But in China... that pipedream is a reality!

Worst of all, and sadly enough for the Stallmanistas, is they have absolutely zero say in the process. It must be like watching someone you don't like go out and buy the car you always wanted, then start dating the girl you always loved but never had a chance with.

It would be funny... except for all the people having their ability to chose their own OS and software taken away.

Re:Where Exactly is the Debate?

[arth1]

A goose-step march, you mean.

No, I think I meant a Long March, just like I said.

As in the communists retreating from Kuomintang in a slow and painful process, just like the last time.

If this means nothing to you, your history teacher should be fired.

Re:Spy and Malware.

[GargamelSpaceman]

First let me say that whoever modded the parent post offtopic is a moron. Let the meta-moderation begin....

Of course it's an invasion of the rights of the owners of internet cafes to MAKE them install any particular software, but this is China, and that is small potatos.

I wonder, though, if Red Flag becomes ubiquitous in China, how soon spamware/spyware/botnet creators will start to target that platform, and Linux in general. The Linux home user who may not be as up-to-date on patches or careful security wise as they would be using Windows ( That's part of the appeal of Linux at home ) may have to clean up their acts soon.

Sigh... Then again, I think there is less incentive for OSS to leave open holes at the behest of the ( nonexistant in the case of OSS ) marketing department.

I stand my position : no *secret* in GPL software.

[DrYak]

95% of users will be prevented from modifying and recompiling the source files, because you'll have to know how to tunnel through a proxy to one of the banned repositories to get clean source code.

Still, I takes only 1 single person, to compare the "officially accessible" binaries from the only repository to actual "original binaries" from outside the Greate Wall or even to binary that the single person produced from the source (SRPM), and see if they are 1:1 identical, or not.

If they are not 1:1 identical, the Government is violating the GPL anyway (they didn't publish the modification of the source together with the modified binaries), and everyone will know that something fishy is going on.

This simple comparison is as fucking trivial as comparing MD5SUMs of the file available inside and outside the Greate FireWall.
And the person that does the comparison doesn't even have to live under Chinese juridiction.

You just CAN'T HIDE ANYTHING in GPL software. That's it. End of story.
No way to put a *secret* spyware in Linux.

Now, please, try doing exactly the same thing with Windows. You just can't prove that the NSA/CIA/FBI/whatever hasn't put back-doors inside Windows Vista. Because the source isn't public, so you can't at least track one single guaranteed version.
Even if you don't live in a totalitarian state, you can't prove anything concerning a proprietary binary junk.

Finding a secret spyware in Windows would require advanced reverse engineering.

Suspicious people....

[DrYak]

Someone linked to the trusting trust speech earlier, but here it is again:

No, sorry, the situation isn't the same:

The speech tells how some evil people inside the GNU team could design a hacked GCC compiler that automatically inject evil code inside its output (and as the compiler is a C program itself...)

When the first step in a chain is it self a result of the chain, you can't trust it 100%.

Whereas in the current situation we are speaking about one country playing tricks onto its population, while outside there still exist a set of good software.
Even if the chinese GCC is hacked, you could still compare it to stock non-Chinese GCC.

You have a set of tools that you can trust.

Also, they could just distribute modified libraries and not tell anyone they don't match the source. Granted, some people might slip through, but who really builds their entire OS from source repeatedly?

It takes one single person to compare the MD5sums of binaries available inside China, to sums of binaries coming from outside and/or compiled from source.
On single test and the whole planet (well, at least those reading the news from outside the Great FireWall) knows that something fishy has been done to the binaries.

Given how some paranoid geek suspect China, you know that this *will* happen.

Plus, that is a clear violation of the GPL. Which would bring bad publicity to China. Something that they won't appreciate much.
This won't protect magically the population, but could make think twice a government which want to look as much perfect as possible.

Re:Spy and Malware.

[dougmc]

Get serious? Seriously?

The compiler he's talking about was written ... something like 20 years ago. If it was compiling /bin/login, it added a back door. It was more of a proof of concept than a real cracker tool, but in the twenty or so years since, crackers have gotten much more clever than that.

How many millions of code went into Red Flag Linux? Do you have the time and skill to audit every one for back doors? And even if you do and you do, but you get the binary version, what's to ensure that the binary version was compiled from the same source that you audited?\

By mandating a specific distribution, the Chinese government is acting very strangely. It could just be a national pride thing, use what was made in China, but there are other possible reasons.

Re:Spy and Malware.

[MaskedSlacker]

As Berners-Lee pointed out when he wrote that version of gcc, your only real solution is write your own disassembler that will not be recognized by the tainted compiler so you can test it to try and catch it in the act of inserting the exploit into the binary. Time to brush up on your assembly language.

If the compiler is compromised there is no other solution because any tool you might try can be compromised by the compiler in compiling it. It's a vastly more sophisticated version of a trojan that disables your anti-virus. All you can do is write everything in binary yourself.

Now you've got me all paranoid.

Re:Spy and Malware.

[MaskedSlacker]

I didn't say for a fact that they couldn't, I said IF they couldn't.

My point was simply that the ability to spot the problem is not itself a solution.

Re:Spy and Malware.

[MaskedSlacker]

Correction: I did say they couldn't, I meant to say IF they couldn't.

Re:Spy and Malware.

[Knuckles]

Ok then :)

Re:Spy and Malware.

[LingNoi]

Show me the code in GCC which adds exploits or shut the fuck up. I'm sick of reading you people's paranoid delusions about compiler exploits.

If it complies with the GPL,

[gr8dude]

If it complies with the GPL, it means that the source code for whatever they changed there must be available. Therefore anyone will be able to take a look at it and remove the offending parts.

If they won't offer the source code, how will they be forced to reveal it? In other words, if China violates the GPL, what will be done?

Re:Spy and Malware.

[dougmc]

The code is (I assume) not a part of the proper gcc (or other compiler) distribution. It was a proof of concept, written and then immediately pointed to and then the author said `see?!?!?!' It was never added to any released software (that I'm aware of.)

But you wanted a citation? Here ya go, read the `27.1.2 Trusting Trust' section. Looks like I was wrong about the date -- it wasn't 20 years ago, it was at least 24 years ago.

OeLeWaPpErKe may have gotten the compiler wrong (since gcc came out in 1987, and this hacked compiler was written about in 1984, it couldn't have been gcc.) But I'd say that the odds are approximately 100% that somebody has made a similar alteration to gcc, which would make what OeLeWaPpErKe said correct. Now, hopefully that change (or anything similar) never made it into the gcc or egcs distributions, but it's possible, and if done skillfully (or with the collaboration of the other people in a position to detect it) it could be difficult to detect.

In any event, read the entire page I cited, and the next few pages in the book. It might help you explain why people are suspicious of the Chinese government's motives here. Or if you want to read the original 1984 paper, here ya go.