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How the City Hurts Your Brain

Hugh Pickens writes "The city has always been an engine of intellectual life and the 'concentration of social interactions' is largely responsible for urban creativity and innovation. But now scientists are finding that being in an urban environment impairs our basic mental processes. After spending a few minutes on a crowded city street, the brain is less able to hold things in memory and suffers from reduced self-control. 'The mind is a limited machine,' says psychologist Marc Berman. 'And we're beginning to understand the different ways that a city can exceed those limitations.' Consider everything your brain has to keep track of as you walk down a busy city street. A city is so overstuffed with stimuli that we need to redirect our attention constantly so that we aren't distracted by irrelevant things. This sort of controlled perception — we are telling the mind what to pay attention to — takes energy and effort. Natural settings don't require the same amount of cognitive effort. A study at the University of Michigan found memory performance and attention spans improved by 20 percent after people spent an hour interacting with nature. 'It's not an accident that Central Park is in the middle of Manhattan,' says Berman. 'They needed to put a park there.'"

439 comments

  1. Good exercise? by Narcocide · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just because its more distracting doesn't mean its bad for you.

    1. Re:Good exercise? by davester666 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hell, if I've got something to think about and somewhere to go (either walking or driving), I'll find myself there without being aware of actively avoiding people and/or cars.

      Then again, I am Vulcan. Human's may not be capable of this.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    2. Re:Good exercise? by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 2, Funny

      Then again, I am Vulcan. Human's may not be capable of this.

      I can. But I'm not sure what that means. Can humans do this or am I Vulcan as well? We should have a poll over this.

    3. Re:Good exercise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      oh my god, nerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd.

    4. Re:Good exercise? by mh1997 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just because its more distracting doesn't mean its bad for you.

      Exactly, I've seen people drive a car while putting on make up, talking on the phone, reading the paper, and drinking a cup of coffee all at the same time and have yet to see a single car accident in any city I've ever lived in. And we've never heard of someone not paying attention on the street and stepping in front of a car/bus.

      Hell, my kids tell me that they can do homework while watching TV and chatting online.

      Yes, distractions are not bad for you large cup of coffee with cream and an egg mcmuffin please and they actually help.

    5. Re:Good exercise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because its more distracting doesn't mean its bad for you.

      Totally. As a city dweller, suburbia totally deadens my brain. I always get more conceptually-difficult programming done in a crowded bus station than at Starbucks inside some generic Babble-Brook Mall.

    6. Re:Good exercise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Then again, I am Vulcan. Human's may not be capable of this.

      I can. But I'm not sure what that means. Can humans do this or am I Vulcan as well? We should have a poll over this.

      Don't talk to the strange man who thinks he is one of a fictional race from a pretend spaceman tv show. He'll probably try to molest you or worse, show you his cheeto-stained XXXL Starfleet uniform.

    7. Re:Good exercise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Hell, if I've got something to think about and somewhere to go (either walking or driving), I'll find myself there without being aware of actively avoiding people and/or cars.

      If you're not aware of actively avoiding people, how do you know you did? How do you know they didn't do all the avoiding?

      A co-worker of mine was hospitalised when he was run down by a car while cycling to work. The car driver was traced, and said things like, "Oh come on, I think I'd know if I'd run over someone!" He was genuinely surprised when paint chips on his car matched the paint scraped off the bike. He assumed someone had scraped his car while it was parked. He was so focused on getting to his next job site that he didn't notice he'd turned across the bike lane and run over a cyclist.

    8. Re:Good exercise? by smoker2 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Just because its more distracting doesn't mean its bad for you.

      Yes it does. The ancient equivalent of a city would be on the veldt surrounded by predators. You are constantly on edge looking for the flash of colour which could mean you're on the menu. Your ears are straining to hear the danger signals through the constant noise. Constant exposure to such stress is very wearing and can result in various nervous malfunctions and lead to physical manifestations. Ever heard of hypertension ?

      I recently (6 months ago) gave up driving a truck (18 wheeler for the US residents) because although the physical act of driving was easy, the mental stress of being abused by just about everybody else on the road led to me being pissed off the whole time. Once you get into that condition, you need serious training in Buddhism to learn to relax. I haven't had the training, and I still can't drive (even a car) without getting stressed almost immediately, and it has even affected me as a pedestrian. All this is happening to a person who in 2001/2002 drove across the US 3 times (FL -> WA, WA -> FL, FL -> CA) in a month and a half for fun, then drove almost all the way around Australia, then travelled all the way round NZ by bus. Hint: it's not the driving or travelling.

      The human mind can't stand up to being attacked all the time. My condition is starting to become agoraphobic as it is impossible to go anywhere without encountering traffic. I recently spent time in Scotland, well away from large population centres, and it was like a large dose of valium. I was completely relaxed within a day or so. Unfortunately I still have to earn a living so moving there permanently isn't an option right now. And not having worked for 6 months means my savings are almost exhausted and my options are dwindling to zero.

      Just because you don't notice the effect, it doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. It is cumulative and one day it will hit you hard. Your brain gets used to the default state of mind being stress, and suddenly one day it gets stuck there. Very hard to get back from, and very hard to withstand real stress when it occurs, because you have so little energy left in reserve.

    9. Re:Good exercise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly, I've seen people drive a car while putting on make up, talking on the phone, reading the paper, and drinking a cup of coffee all at the same time and have yet to see a single car accident in any city I've ever lived in.

      You've seen those people doing that... and you've never seen an accident happen... but did you study a large group of people doing all that behind the wheel, and a large group not doing all that, and compare the accident rates? Wouldn't that be better statistics to base a conclusion on than on your perception of every day life?

      And we've never heard of someone not paying attention on the street and stepping in front of a car/bus.

      That doesn't mean that accidents don't happen, of course. It's not the point though. People will pay attention and not get hit by a bus. The point is that it takes energy, and the continuous stimulation of the brain tires it down, and it leaves less attention for the things more joyful than "not getting hit by a bus".

      Hell, my kids tell me that they can do homework while watching TV and chatting online.

      You believed them? Would you seriously believe that doing e.g. math continuously mixed with TV and chats will be as productive as the flow you can get into by doing just math?

    10. Re:Good exercise? by edmazur · · Score: 1

      WHOOOOOSH

    11. Re:Good exercise? by PermanentMarker · · Score: 1

      Distracting isnt any good
      What's not good over a long time will hurt you.
      You dont believe it i'm sure just count headaches, count fitnesh, how often is a person sick in a year etc..
      Or check how good do teenager learn at schools compared to villages.

      And you'l find out you'll get stressed there, which has long line of effects on your health.
      But because people tend to ignore stress, (some even think they like it) they get ill in the end.
      And when at the end of it then they finaly understand stress, and risks of distrations.

      So not bad for you, well your not at the end there yet.
      Just give it a couple of years and you'll be there.
      People who live in a rush usualy do get there.
      Altough i hope you wont.

      --
      I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change.
    12. Re:Good exercise? by PunditGuy · · Score: 1

      I have mod points. I want to mod this "facepalm." Can someone help me?

    13. Re:Good exercise? by zenyu · · Score: 1

      Please no coffee! adjust your joke yes three sugars detection meter.

    14. Re:Good exercise? by Hordeking · · Score: 1

      Then again, I am Vulcan. Human's may not be capable of this.

      Humans, unlike Vulcans, however, know when to use an apostrophe.

      --
      Disclaimer: The opinions and actions of the US Gov't are in no way representative of those held by this author or its ci
    15. Re:Good exercise? by MrCrassic · · Score: 1

      If that's not the case, then why are there so many drivers who are incredibly stressed constantly throughout the day?

      At least for me, focusing on a single task in a calm and relaxing atmosphere (in a park, Starbucks, a calm riverfront, etc.) makes me more productive and leaves me feeling more refreshed afterwards.

    16. Re:Good exercise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hordekings, you know, use a ton of apostrophes, however, they place them slightly lower than humans, at the bottom of the end of the word, rather than at the top, like Vulcans.

    17. Re:Good exercise? by ChinggisK · · Score: 1

      Hell, my kids tell me that they can do homework while watching TV and chatting online.

      They probably also tell you that ice cream makes them sleep better at night and that they want money from you so they can donate it to the poor kids at school, right?

    18. Re:Good exercise? by ChangelingJane · · Score: 1

      Exactly, I've seen people drive a car while putting on make up, talking on the phone, reading the paper, and drinking a cup of coffee all at the same time

      My dad would actually do this. (Well, minus the phone. And the makeup. But he'd be eating a donut too!) And he had freaking narcolepsy on top of it. While driving a van. Every now and then he'd start to nod off and the van would slowly veer off the road until he snapped back awake.

      I'm surprised I'm still alive, honestly.

    19. Re:Good exercise? by mysticgoat · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes! Whether distractions are bad depends completely on what you are doing (or how you do it).

      For instance, people who use Python need a fair bit of distraction to keep their minds occupied and thus find some kind of satisfaction while working in that highly restrictive environment. But people who program with Perl need a low distraction environment while they exercise their creative potential.

      There is so much more to programming than whitespace can contain :-)

    20. Re:Good exercise? by ChangelingJane · · Score: 2, Funny

      But living in a suburb improves pattern recognition and overall awareness, because you have to look really hard to spot the difference between Prefab House Copy #500 and whichever one is your house.

    21. Re:Good exercise? by ChangelingJane · · Score: 1

      I think it's easier to spot a pattern when you've seen it at its most extreme. As someone with PTSD, I'd like to say that your description seems pretty apt.

    22. Re:Good exercise? by je+ne+sais+quoi · · Score: 1

      That's a very interesting comment. A few years ago now I moved to the middle of a large (5.5 million) city after living in small towns (50k) for the last ten years. Lately I've been feeling more and more like I'm constantly on the defensive and it's nerve wracking. Part of this is the job for sure, it's a high pressure one that hopefully will pay off, but now I wonder how much the city itself has to do with the way I've been feeling. I can certainly say that it doesn't help that if you walk around during night you have to be on your guard constantly, and even in the day you have to be a little wary. I walk everywhere so maybe it's more of a problem for me than others. Hmm, you've definitely given me something to think about.

      --
      Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
    23. Re:Good exercise? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 0

      Humans, unlike Vulcans, however, know when to use an apostrophe.

      Must be a lot of Vulcans on Slashdot. Live long and prosper!

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    24. Re:Good exercise? by djfuq · · Score: 0

      Actually, I have always believed this is the cause of these imaginative "mental illnesses" such as attention deficit disorder. The reality: There are too many things to pay attention to.
      Now think about this in a educational environment, such as a modern high school or college.... you know, the modern school that has commercialism everywhere... even TVs hung up in the corner of every classroom to watch "channel 1" advertising.
      HMMMMMMMMMM I wonder why everyone needs to be on drugs?

      \\The last time I posted this intuition, I was treated as if it was a ridiculous idea.

      \\Its nice to see science finally catching up with my intuition... ;-)

      \\\Quick! Give your children more amphetamines!

      --
      Dj fuQ [url="http://djfuq.org"]djfuq urges you to listen to the beats[/url] [url="http://djfuq.org"]http://djfuq.org[
    25. Re:Good exercise? by naeone · · Score: 0

      I used to drive for a living also (mobile cranes and various types of trucks) and can concur with the poster that eventually the jobs made driving anything a very stressful experience

    26. Re:Good exercise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey mods. Hear that whooshing sound above your heads? That's the joke this guy was making.

    27. Re:Good exercise? by borjonx · · Score: 1

      > Just because its more distracting doesn't mean its bad for you

      True, but it's also important to remember that some of the brightest minds of our time had "ah ha!" moments while "getting away from it all".

      Nikola Tesla sketched out a rough design for his rotating magnetic field device, and J.Robert Oppenheimer often preffered walks in nature to let his mind roam free. Albert Einstein was a well known fan of getting away from it all (the answers are right there - in nature).

      Wether are not you're comfortable with city life isn't what the article was about.

    28. Re:Good exercise? by db10 · · Score: 1

      Die soon in poverty

    29. Re:Good exercise? by stdarg · · Score: 1

      Humans are capable of it. You might be interested in this video: http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2008/12/blind_man_navigates_obstacle_course_perfectly_with_no_visual.php

      It's about a blind man with the ability to navigate a hallway full of obstacles. Pretty amazing. Basically, he has brain damage and is not consciously aware of sight but other, lower-level processing (like obstacle avoidance) is still going on.

    30. Re:Good exercise? by rdwulfe · · Score: 1

      IANAC (I am not a comedian).... But I'm pretty sure that was ment as sarcastic humor. Then again, this is /. -- These sort of things tend to go unnoticed. Wow.

    31. Re:Good exercise? by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If that's not the case, then why are there so many drivers who are incredibly stressed constantly throughout the day?

      Because proper cities are built to make driving stressful enough that people will just walk or take public transportation.

    32. Re:Good exercise? by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      I grew up in the middle of the country (I mean, need a telescope to see if your neighbours are home, country). My high school was in a town 17 miles away.
      When I went to university, I moved to a town of 350,000 people, and it drove me nuts. I was in the suburbs, and it was still too much.
      I still live in the same neighbourhood, and I've somewhat got used to it, but it's still stressful to drive downtown for any reason. I'm quite happy to jump in my car and drive around out in the country for a while, just to relax a bit.

      And this is only 350k. I can't imagine what 5.5 million people around me would do to me. Maybe that's why homicides are much more prevalent in cities.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    33. Re:Good exercise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure the truckers haven't changed. What other explanation could there be?

    34. Re:Good exercise? by paazin · · Score: 1

      Hey mods. Hear that whooshing sound above your heads? That's the joke this guy was making.

      Irony, you mean like goldy or silvery?

    35. Re:Good exercise? by ukyoCE · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You sound like you've really taken it to the extreme, but there are a few things I do that help when I start feeling the same way driving.

      1) Be glad that fast/aggressive/crazy person is past you and gone. Better to let them cause an accident somewhere up ahead (hopefully with a tree) instead of with you. I also like to thank them (in my head) for catching any speed traps up ahead by going 10mph faster than me.

      2) No matter how slow you have to go, it really doesn't matter. You could drive 30mph on the interstate the whole way to work and you'd still get there, and it really wouldn't take THAT long. So having to slow down for that one guy, or having to slow down because someone wont "let" you get over - who cares?

      3) Lower your expectations all around. Take it slow, set cruise control, help the people around you. If you try go 15mph over the speed limit and get mad every time you can't, even for a moment, then you're going to get very stressed and frustrated very fast.

      4) I've noticed that listening to talk radio rather than music helps me relax and slow down and ignore the jerks around me. Not sure why, but there ya go.

      Regardless of all of that, the driver's license training and police enforcement in the US needs to focus a lot more on aggressive driving, overly slow/indecisive driving (you can take a U-turn later, dont block up traffic trying to make an illegal turn!), and keeping to the right unless passing.

    36. Re:Good exercise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Try learning perl. You'll feel much better!

    37. Re:Good exercise? by rxan · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Since birth I have lived in a small farming town (population around 1000 people) and it has been mind-numbingly boring every single day. There is nothing to do, nobody interesting, and you have to go to neighboring larger towns for any form of entertainment. It is the opposite of what the psychologist describes: a severe lack of stimili. Some people like the country, other people like the city, and others somewhere in-between. And me, well I hate the country and don't mind the city.

      Does anyone else think that this psychologist just isn't a city person?

    38. Re:Good exercise? by Arterion · · Score: 1

      I totally agree. I refuse to go anywhere in rush hour traffic. If I find myself in it for some reason, I'll find a restaurant or some diversion for an hour, then try again.

      What I especially hate is when you get stuck in bad traffic unknowingly. Like everything is smooth sailing, but then you get near a wreck or some road construction, but then you're stuck and can't get out of it. I get really, really pissed off at the asshole who'll get in the lane that's going to end, speed to the end of it, then force their way in front of everyone. A lot of times, I'll get half into the lane that's going to close so they can't get around me.

      Even in moderate traffic, I get really taxed mentally if I've been driving for over, say, 15 minutes. It puts me in a bad mood for hours. Especially if it causes me to run late for something -- which is an whole other source of stress in the same vein. Though I think the sources of traffic and the extremely negative social view of tardiness are pretty similar. When you consider that everyone has to rush to work by 9 and leave at 6, and being late is a supreme sin, then of course they're all driving like maniacs.

      I know, I know, a lot of people will argue, "well, you should leave earlier." I see asking employees to leave early just in case there's traffic the same as call centers asking employees to leave early so they can boot their computers before their shift starts. (This assumes that you can't start your shift a little early, which some decent employers allow.)

      The whole problem of traffic is absurd. It's based on a bunch of lemmings deciding that the best time to do anything is the exact same time everyone else is doing it. It's not economically feasible to build road systems that don't get backed up at peak traffic times. So the only solution is to spread the peak out over the day. A city will spend millions of dollars improving roads, but not a single penny trying to promote telecommuting or more flexible shifts. It kills me that I've been jammed up somewhere for 20 minutes at 6pm. But just a couple hours later at 8, it only takes 5 minutes to get past the same stretch of road.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    39. Re:Good exercise? by DinDaddy · · Score: 1

      We're out of sugar. Would you like cream in your no coffee?

    40. Re:Good exercise? by Darby · · Score: 1


      I recently (6 months ago) gave up driving a truck (18 wheeler for the US residents) because although the physical act of driving was easy, the mental stress of being abused by just about everybody else on the road led to me being pissed off the whole time.

      Come on now, you quit because people started frowning on all the hooker killing, right?

    41. Re:Good exercise? by Obsidian+Butterfly · · Score: 1

      the mental stress of being abused by just about everybody else on the road led to me being pissed off the whole time

      I hope you don't take up bicycling -- I've been this way for years.

    42. Re:Good exercise? by sakari · · Score: 1

      And for instance people programming Perl need to focus all the time on what is the best way out of all the ways in this case to do things. But people who program Python don't need to worry about such trivial things and can focus on instead the actual structure of the program while they exercise their creative potential.

      There is so much more to programming than myriad selection of characters and syntaxes can contain :-)

    43. Re:Good exercise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen people drive a car while putting on make up, talking on the phone, reading the paper, and drinking a cup of coffee all at the same time and have yet to see a single car accident in any city I've ever lived in.

      You've never lived in Atlanta,GA

    44. Re:Good exercise? by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      I have lived in the country and in various cities and I completely agree with you - especially the loss of reserves. My ideal would be living in the country full-time. I'm a contractor and would gladly cut my rate by 50% for a reliable stream of work that could be done from 1-3 hours distance from the nearest urban center - as soon as I knew I had that I'd be out there and the city would only be for occasional cultural fare.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    45. Re:Good exercise? by Luckz · · Score: 1

      I didn't live when mcgrew was young, but from own driving experience his description is pretty accurate for 30-85%. What makes you so sure, Mr. Anonymous Coward? :)

    46. Re:Good exercise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love these studies... They always start off with a flawed premise... "...so overstuffed with stimuli that we're forced to constantly redirect our attention." LOL! Who does this??

      I think this is a problem for your average 3 year old, but grownups simply tune out the irrelevant, no matter how stimulating it is.

  2. Just visit Manhattan by Guido+del+Confuso · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Just head to Manhattan and look at the people around you. Everyone is constantly glancing around at everything. It's not just the tourists either--very nearly every single person is constantly shifting his gaze from point to point like a coked out monkey with ADD. It's one of the things that I hate about New York.

    1. Re:Just visit Manhattan by wisty · · Score: 4, Funny

      Is the damage reversible, or do New Yorkers stay like that indefinitely?

    2. Re:Just visit Manhattan by unitron · · Score: 4, Funny

      Everyone is constantly glancing around at everything.

      Probably trying to avoid muggers and eye contact with the crazies.

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    3. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Guido+del+Confuso · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Presumably they eventually manage to recover at least somewhat, but I can tell you from personal experience that they remain permanently insufferable. Ask anyone who has lived in New York about pizza, or public transportation, or pretty much anything else for that matter and the conversation will eventually turn to how much better New York is than wherever it is they currently happen to be. One wonders why they don't just go back and stay there.

      I have yet to meet an ex-New Yorker who isn't excessively proud of the fact that he once lived in "The City". They're worse than Texans.

    4. Re:Just visit Manhattan by drunkenoafoffofb3ta · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Perhaps it's because I've only visited as a tourist, but I find Manhattan's busy-ness and bustling quite energizing, and the memory of it makes me want to visit again. As I type this at my desk. In a managed office building. In a business park. Looking at a motorway. Zzzzzz....

    5. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Guido+del+Confuso · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's because Manhattan hurt your brain when you were there. It's actually intentional--it's the only way they can keep the theaters on Broadway packed for inane pablum like "Cats".

    6. Re:Just visit Manhattan by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      I think what you take as energizing really is the opposite. It takes energy to be in such a busy place. Your attention is all over the place so your mind is running full speed. You walk a lot so you do more physical exercise. Its great for a little while because it's like getting a work out. When you work out you get endorphins goin and your heart rate goes up and it feels good. If you were working out non stop all day you would no longer get those endorphins goin and just be tired. Living in the city is tiring just as working out all day long every day is. I'm not talking about like lightly working out. I'm saying hard pushing to the limit everyday.

      --
      Balderdash!
    7. Re:Just visit Manhattan by xaxa · · Score: 1

      I haven't been to Manhatten for many years, but I live in London which is easily comparable. I also find the bustle energising. Everything is nearby, I can always be doing something if I want to. If I want nature, there's also lots of green spaces (more than any other city, apparently). The only downside is the traffic pollution (ban cars!), and the higher cost of living.

    8. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Servo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I disagree. The tourists are the only ones looking at everything trying to catch it all in, not the locals going about their daily life. The rest of us are just avoiding eye contact and only paying attention to where we are going and what's going to intersect our path getting there.

      --
      A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
    9. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Guido+del+Confuso · · Score: 1

      New Yorkers like to think that, but it's just not true. Go out and really watch people during the day sometime and you'll start to notice it. Watch the eyes. It's just human nature.

    10. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Nursie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Londoners have the same disease, to a slightly lesser extent.

      I'm moving away from *my* City, London, in a few months and I just hope I don't turn into one of those people.

      "Oh, well when I was in London..."
      "In London you can get..."
      "Well in London these things are open 24 hours..."
      "What, you don't have any sushi/thai/dim-sum restaurants within walking distance?"
      "Oh but in London I could always find..."

      Yeah.

    11. Re:Just visit Manhattan by drunkenoafoffofb3ta · · Score: 1

      No, believe me, I understand fatigue, and energizing, and my, perverse, personal, borne of a 3-day visit, experience was energizing. Perhaps living there, with a long commute to work there would grind me down-- like it does from a suburb to a business park in England-- but unless I was a street vendor, I'm not sure I would be that (additionally) b*ggered by everyday work in an air-conditioned office with double glazing to insulate me from the noise, like the one I currently work in. In essence, I suppose I love NY, but I'd probably age at twice the normal rate, if I lived there for a long time!

    12. Re:Just visit Manhattan by ultracool · · Score: 1

      I think that's just object avoidance.

    13. Re:Just visit Manhattan by ultracool · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Perhaps there is more to the article... Have they compared people from cities to people who already live in the countryside? A person who grew up in a big city would be used to all the stimulus, so when the extra "load" is removed, they improve 20% according to TFA. Does this 20% surpass the mental abilities of people who grew up in the countryside?

      So city people are some kind of mental superhumans, and once removed from their highly stimulative environment, they ourperform the non-city people.

    14. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Guido+del+Confuso · · Score: 1

      Mmm, yes. Everything you could ever possibly need in one convenient place. No reason to ever go anywhere else.

      I also live in a major urban area with much the same features as New York or London, and I find one of its nicest qualities is the ease by which I can drive out of it whenever I want to. That's not to say I don't appreciate the convenience of living here; I just also like to experience the world beyond the concrete island when I can.

    15. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Tokerat · · Score: 1

      ...every single person is constantly shifting his gaze from point to point like a coked out monkey with ADD. It's one of the things that I hate about New York.

      Quick note: You're closer than you think. :-)

      --
      CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
    16. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Mistshadow2k4 · · Score: 1

      You most likely will turn into one of those people, regardless of what large city you're from. I'm originally from Louisville (yes, where the Kentucky Derby is held) and the differences between living in Louisville and an urban area are incredible. I guess what will make the difference is whether or not you're the sort who will say all that stuff out loud.

      --
      I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
    17. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Simulant · · Score: 1

      I'll take walking around NYC to driving (or walking though they tend not to do that...) around a suburb any day, thank you very much. I enjoy the distractions.

    18. Re:Just visit Manhattan by hey! · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I find that people who have this view of Manhattan only know it from movies and TV shows. Generally, I have found people in Manhattan to be pleasant and helpful ... although one must make allowances for their adaptations to living in large crowds. The first time I went into Grand Central Station, I got swept along by a crowd that had just been disgorged by a subway entrance. My experience of Manhattan crowds is different from the GP's; generally I find the bulk of them very focused on going about whatever their business is. The sheer size of the crowds means that you can probably find any kind of behavior you're looking for. I find I can observe more people walking down a Manhattan block than I normally do in the course of a month.

      Generally speaking, Manhattan feels as safe as any other city, especially if we are talking from Central Park south during the day time. There are a lot of human friendly aspects to Manhattan's urban landscape. First and foremost are the very very wide sidewalks, which other cities would do well to emulate. This gives plenty of space to large volumes of pedestrian traffic, fed by a dense public transit network. This creates a vibrant street level commercial economy, which may seem overwhelming at first, until you realize that a Manhattan block is like a city in miniature. You don't have to walk a mile to find something you want; as often as not it's no more than a block away; further and you take transit.

      Overall, I find Manhattan to be very comfortable and convenient, once you've adapted a bit to the rhythm and pace. I wonder if the study was perhaps confounded by several things. First, are the subjects accustomed to walking in an urban landscape? If you repeated the experiment a dozen times, would the score for city walkers change? Secondly, are the routes chosen pedestrian friendly? If not the results may simply reflect the results of stress.

      I don't deny that nature is important, and don't doubt that experiencing natural settings regularly is a contributor to mental health. But in many ways, dense urban landscapes are both good for people and the environment, when compared to sprawl.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    19. Re:Just visit Manhattan by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      If I want nature, there's also lots of green spaces (more than any other city, apparently). The only downside is the traffic pollution (ban cars!)

      Ken Livingstone, is that you?

    20. Re:Just visit Manhattan by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, it does explain why our nation's most rural areas are so well known for their intellectualism and scholarly accomplishment.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    21. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      haha, dude, how many times are you going to post in this discussion??

      what the heck happened to you in new york?!

    22. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Shakrai · · Score: 2

      Ask anyone who has lived in New York about pizza

      Actually, with respect, this is one that I'd have to agree with them on. Not so much New York City by itself but the Northeast as a whole or any other region with a large Italian-American population. One of the things I most despised about living in the South was the lack of good pizza. Southerners seem to think that good pizza comes from Little Caesars......

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    23. Re:Just visit Manhattan by xaxa · · Score: 1

      I don't know about New York, but London isn't a concrete island.

      Take a look. There's a lot of large, green areas. Sure, if you climb to the top of a hill the view will mostly be of the city, but there won't be the traffic noise and there's several parks easily big enough to get lost in (or play football/frisbee/whatever in without disturbing anyone).

      Richmond Park and Wimbledon Common
      Hyde Park (
      Regent's Park
      Hampstead Heath
      They're big ones, there's a lot of small ones too. They're reasonably central too, i.e. the Underground/suburban railways go a lot further out than these spaces.

      Your point about being able to drive out is obviously still true, but it isn't as necessary here as in many (most?) other cities.

    24. Re:Just visit Manhattan by macbuzz01 · · Score: 1

      My years in Florida also taught me to just agree with the loud New Yorkers...otherwise there will be a lot of crotch grabbing, shouting, chest thumping, and nose wiping with a thumb that you have to deal with. Good times...

      Much smaller subset of people, but western MI is the same way. After moving to Michigan from Florida and having never lived in Michigan, I was "welcomed back" by a life long Michigan resident.

    25. Re:Just visit Manhattan by TerribleNews · · Score: 1

      Ask anyone who has lived in New York about pizza, or public transportation, or pretty much anything else for that matter and the conversation will eventually turn to how much better New York is than wherever it is they currently happen to be. One wonders why they don't just go back and stay there.

      Except the street meat. Man, have you ever had a hot dog from a street vendor in NYC? It's like eating boiled spam on wonderbread.

      Now Toronto? That's some good street meat. And let me tell you about how public transit and pizza and anything else you want to talk about is better in Toronto, too...

    26. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Actually, they are just trying to look away from the freak who keeps staring them in the face.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    27. Re:Just visit Manhattan by saintlupus · · Score: 1

      I have yet to meet an ex-New Yorker who isn't excessively proud of the fact that he once lived in "The City". They're worse than Texans.

      Amen. I work at a college in Buffalo, and the students from downstate are just insufferable. I actually had one correct me when I referred to Buffalo as "the city", as I clearly didn't know that there is only _one_ "the city" and this ain't it.

      The fact that we're closer to Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Rochester, or a dozen other cities than we are to that five-borough monster doesn't even register.

      --saint

    28. Re:Just visit Manhattan by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Living in the city is tiring

      The trick for me has been to find (or make) a home in the city that is as comforting and isolated from the noise and activity as possible. This isn't easy. Most of my younger life, I lived in the busiest neighborhoods on the noisiest streets. I remember how my bed used to shake whenever the Clark Street bus went by.

      Part of it is finding a good place to live. I'm only a leisurely walk from the heart of downtown Chicago, but I live on an antique block in a neighborhood that even many experienced Chicagoans don't know, and there's a large, underused park across the street where I can walk my dog. It's safe, quiet and the word hasn't gotten out to the kewl kids that this is the best neighborhood in the city yet. Most big cities have these secret neighborhoods, but you have to really look hard to find them.

      The other part is having a mate that seems to have an almost supernatural ability to turn a broke-down 19th century Victorian shell into a warm and inviting home. I grew up running the streets here in Chicago, in the thick of it, and I couldn't live in bucolic rural places (I've tried). It's the safety and invitation I feel when I step across my home's threshold that leaches out the poisons I inevitably ingest in my daily rounds.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    29. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      I finally made it to NY (Manhattan) this summer for a few days. I was actually surprised on how uncrowded (pedestrian wise) it was. Not a patch on London (or even Brighton or many other English cities).

      I was also surprised at how clean it was and how not-rude the people were compared to what I had been led to believe. I put the latter down to many people not being aware how it is necessary to interact when things start to get crowded and mistaking necessity for rudeness.

    30. Re:Just visit Manhattan by C_L_Lk · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Unfortunately, it's very hard to not become one of those people. I did. But I personally can affirm the story in my personal case.

      I lived in San Francisco for 7 years after university, and became accustomed to urban life - having things open 24 hours, having china town a few steps away, having everything so close and easy to get to. On the other hand I always felt distracted, stressed, and like I was unable to do half the things I wanted because of crowds, traffic, too long of lines, waiting lists for restaurant reservations, you name it. I was not being very productive as I was always thinking about the logistical ramifications.

      I left. I went to the opposite corner of North America - I bought a cabin on a remote lake in north central Ontario Canada - no phone line - electricity was solar and a generator - heat was a wood stove and a fireplace - internet was via 2-way Satellite - I can get in my car and drive an hour in any given direction and see no more than 5 cars. No more lines. No more traffic. No more logistical nightmares. When your biggest concern for a week is if you should drive in for provisions on Wednesday or Thursday depending on the weather, and if there's enough firewood split to last the month out. However I did catch myself saying "When I was in SF, I could get Chinese delivery in 20 minutes, and if I wanted a part for something I was working on there were so many stores to choose from!".

      I lived there for 5 years - the most productive and happy 5 years of my life - but in the end it did get a little lonely and I've now moved to the fringes of a small city (100,000 ppl) - I'm still surrounded by trees and not people - but now I'm only a 10 minute drive to stores and supplies - rather than close to 2 hours. I still feel able to think here - there's nowhere near the horrible stress of urban life.

    31. Re:Just visit Manhattan by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      Ask anyone who has lived in New York about pizza, or public transportation, or pretty much anything else for that matter and the conversation will eventually turn to how much better New York is than wherever it is they currently happen to be.

      If there's one thing New Yorkers enjoy more than bragging about how great the public transportation system is, it's complaining about how much our transportation system sucks.

      In neither case are we wrong.

    32. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Nursie · · Score: 1

      Myself, I'm not quite up to taking the leap to rural living, but I get what you mean about feeling stifled in the city, about not doing much because it all seems like so much effort to organise.

      I'm planning on moving to the other side of the planet as soon as I get a visa (Australia here we come), to the outskirts of a small city (well, 1M is small, right?), somewhere I can ride a pedal bike to work and drive out into the middle of nowhere inside an hour, rather than get in the car and find myself pissed off and *still in this damned city* an hour later.

    33. Re:Just visit Manhattan by ChangelingJane · · Score: 1

      I take it you've never been around a tourist from New York.

    34. Re:Just visit Manhattan by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      Manhattan hurt your brain when you were there. It's actually intentional--it's the only way they can keep the theaters on Broadway packed for inane pablum like "Cats".

      They must be doing it wrong, then, as the Broadway run of "Cats" ended more than eight years ago, and Broadway in general is really hurting financially right now.

    35. Re:Just visit Manhattan by mellon · · Score: 1

      That's exactly what I thought about New Yorkers until I (wait for it) lived there for a while.

      The problem with New York is that it's not something you can really grok by visiting for a week. If you live there, you can become part of a social web that doesn't really exist anywhere else I've lived - not in San Francisco, not in Boston, certainly not in Tucson.

      There's something about the incredibly high population density that does it.

      And it's not that all pizza in New York is better - frankly most of it sucks. I used to think that New York had the worst coffee ever, until recently. What New York really shines at is iterations.

      What I mean is that in a typical city, there will be one or two coffee shops or pizza places that are in range for you. You're pretty much stuck with them if you don't want to go farther afield. So they are able to sustain themselves not by being good, but by being there.

      In New York, there will be a dozen pizza places within walking distance of where you are living. So the ones that suck go out of business quickly. Survival of the fittest. You still have plenty of pizza places that neither suck nor excel, but if you really care about pizza, you can get outstanding pizza.

      Likewise coffee. Most people don't give a shit, and they go to Dunkin Donuts or *$$ and are perfectly happy. More power to them. But there are a few insanely good coffee joints in New York, if that's what you care about. And because competition is harsh, the prices tend to be reasonable.

      So yeah, New Yorkers and ex-New Yorkers do tend to trumpet the virtues of the city, and it is kind of annoying, but there's a reason for it.

    36. Re:Just visit Manhattan by mellon · · Score: 1

      Nope, it's like that when you live there too. I used to park my car down at Pier 49 (ish) and then wait for the train at the Houston St. 1/9 stop. Usually a couple of express trains would go by before my train showed up. Just seeing so many people blip by in a few seconds was like drinking a shot of espresso.

      Back before the WTC collapsed, I used to go to the mall in the basement there every morning for coffee and a pastry. I'd usually get there right at the peak of the rush, when the commuters were coming up out of the PATH trains in waves like a waterfall. It felt a lot like I imagine a gazelle would feel in the middle of a huge herd. Even though everyone was going in different directions, there were no collisions - just currents of people moving in and out of each other.

    37. Re:Just visit Manhattan by ginbot462 · · Score: 1

      I agree in general (especially where I live), but Mellow Mushroom (based out of Atlanta I think) is an exception to the rule.

      --
      Atlas Shrugged : Thematic Story :: Battlefield Earth : Organized Religion
    38. Re:Just visit Manhattan by ShadowBlasko · · Score: 1

      Yes, but you can get good Dim Sum in Louisville, and the olde spaghetti factory/warehouse, so you have that going for you. Plus, you know.. keep it weird.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order- Ed Howdershelt Via Tass
    39. Re:Just visit Manhattan by FireAllianceNX · · Score: 1

      You must not have been looking at a local... and if you are, they're probably trying to avoid the tourist who insist of stopping in the middle of the street to look up and point at various things that the locals don't care about.

    40. Re:Just visit Manhattan by ShadowBlasko · · Score: 1

      Good pizza in the South comes from Savage Pizza, in little five points, Atlanta.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order- Ed Howdershelt Via Tass
    41. Re:Just visit Manhattan by mrjohnson · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I don't know about the OP, either. When I lived in San Francisco I didn't feel a lot of stress walking down the street. I generally zoned out listening to the ipod and found my way home (somehow!).

      I don't really buy that people are super stressed all the time by walking down the street. The brain is not so limited and has a great capacity for not caring about stuff. :-)

    42. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      but Mellow Mushroom (based out of Atlanta I think) is an exception to the rule.

      There's always exceptions. We did actually manage to eventually find a cool little pizzeria -- of course it was 45 minutes away. Here in the Northeast they are everywhere and most of them are pretty good. Hell, in my hometown the little Italian restaurants and pizzerias actually outnumber the fast food joints.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    43. Re:Just visit Manhattan by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      Generally, I have found people in Manhattan to be pleasant and helpful ... although one must make allowances for their adaptations to living in large crowds.

      Are you kidding me? My first experience of NYC after a long absence was two cabbies at the airport almost coming to blows over who was going to going to take a customer to NYC. It pretty much stayed like that my entire stay. Considering that this was after spending a week in Toronto, the culture shock was intense.

      NYC is not as bad as movies and popular culture make it to be. But it is intense. Everything moves fast, and people move fast as well. This means that tempers flare fast as well. I'm pretty sure that stress is a major component of the NYC resident. Compare this to some of the major cities north of the border, and the difference is night and day.

      That said, I agree that compared to (sub)-urban sprawl, anything is better, including NYC. But I'd also argue that part of Manhatten's appeal is Central park. Without it, it'd be damn near unlivable.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    44. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oddly enough, my life has been the exact opposite.

      I spent the first twenty years of life growing up in a small town, surrounded by trees, beavers and deer. I was never a part of the hunting / fishing / snowmobiling culture, and was far more of a videogame and sci-fi geek.

      Now I live in the middle of downtown Toronto, and I feel much more comfortable. The bustling of the crowds doesn't bother me. I find I'm able to navigate better than I ever could before. I don't drive, so I get lots of exercise just walking everywhere. There's a low crime rate, and lots of different people from all walks of life.

      I can always hop on the subway and go to a park to 'escape' every now and then. But when I'm downtown, I feel right at home.

    45. Re:Just visit Manhattan by profplump · · Score: 1

      The whole premise of the article is that you don't get used to it, and that even when you feel acclimated you're still operating less efficiently than you would if the stress was removed.

      Plus if you removed a city-dweller from the city they'd just spend 20% of their time whining about how "In <city> you can..."

    46. Re:Just visit Manhattan by SteeldrivingJon · · Score: 1

      But how many of those glances resulted in some idea for a song, or an ad campaign, or a product, or a business?

      The streets of cities may be hectic, distracting, and dangerous, yet they've also been a place of cultural ferment for thousands of years.

      You know why it's quiet in a rural field? Because nothing's happening there.

      --
      September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
    47. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even people who live in slightly bigger than usual cities, such as Brussels or Copenhagen, tend to have the same attitude.

      I know because I grew up in a city of that size. I still get a the 'looks that could kill' if I, by accident, let out a comment about something that is slightly better on my old home city than in the city of 150 000 that I live in now.

      When some someone from my home city asks me why I chose not to live in "the city" (this terrible way of referring to the big city one comes from is one of the attitudes I've taught myself away from) I tend to ask back - why do you chose not to live in London, Paris or New York?

      I wonder what you say to shut up a New Yorker.

    48. Re:Just visit Manhattan by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      It's the safety and invitation I feel when I step across my home's threshold that leaches out the poisons I inevitably ingest in my daily rounds.

      Is this not the reason man makes a home! I was in Chicago for a few weeks recently. For a metropolitan its got a very different vibe than NYC. People there are different. I myself live in LA! ahah, which is the happy medium I think. You are close enough here to city and rural areas and beach! Lots of nature and mountains to enjoy.

      --
      Balderdash!
    49. Re:Just visit Manhattan by tachyonflow · · Score: 1

      I've lived in a lot of places (although not New York or Texas), and I think every place certainly has its pros and cons. Many times, I think that places could learn a lot from each other and whittle down the cons while boosting the pros. However, if I suggested that my previous city had an idea that my current city could benefit from, I imagine people would think I'm just suffering from this "the old grass was greener" mindset, even if I'm not at all suggesting any sort of overall superiority.

      So, I'm wondering how cross-pollination of ideas between cities can happen without sounding like an ass.

    50. Re:Just visit Manhattan by dodobh · · Score: 1

      In any efficient city, you don't waste time waiting. You don't deal with too much traffic (except in the idiotic cities designed around cars and without working mass transit).

      If one restaurant is too busy, the next one is available. I live in a large urban environment which has working transit, and I have lived in a city without it, and I can tell you that living in the city without transit was stressful. From what I have heard, most US cities are like the second one, while NYC is like the first. NYC will be less stressful than San Francisco.

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
    51. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Amen. I work at a college in Buffalo, and the students from downstate are just insufferable

      If you think the students are bad trying being around the hunters from downstate. If there's a better argument for gun control than a drunk NYC'er running around with a loaded shotgun bragging about that 45 pound doe he bagged on posted property I don't know what it is......

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    52. Re:Just visit Manhattan by mrvan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Second that, at least for the old world

      I live in Amsterdam; I have a car to drive to family etc. outside town, but I would never think about driving anywhere within the city except for Ikea etc. A 7/7 8-22 supermarket is 20 meters away from my front door, my work is 20 minutes by bicycle or tram, depending on weather. There are hundreds of restaurants within a 30 minute walk, and I've never been put on a waiting list. Sure, sometimes one is full, but never all of them.

      If I get home, it is quiet and it is our space. Noise from outside is minimal thanks to modern isolation, certainly not more than in the countryside (cows, roosters etc make a lot more noise, and cars going 100 km/h make a lot more noise than cars going 30.

      Good shows and concerts have to be booked in advance, but guess what: the countryside doesn't have any shows or concerts.

      I love the city, it's just a shame that the US made so many dubious design choices in a lot of theirs, although parking is usually a lot easier :-)

    53. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Marsala · · Score: 1

      I have yet to meet an ex-New Yorker who isn't excessively proud of the fact that he once lived in "The City". They're worse than Texans.

      O_o

      New Yorkers are Texans.

      We annexed the United States back in 1845, but decided to let ya'll keep the old name to soften the blow.

    54. Re:Just visit Manhattan by hey! · · Score: 1

      I think, though, you are dealing with sampling error here ... or rather an error in your mental denominator. Yes, in NYC you witness more unpleasant interactions per day, but you have to take into account how many more interactions per day you are witnessing.

      Don't get me wrong, I love Toronto ... the restaurants, the theater, the museums. But Manhattan has three times the population density of Toronto. You have to allow for that when counting incidents.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    55. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems strange to me as well. Granted, I've only visited NYC a few times, but I found it pleasant and relaxing. Walking and public transit lessens a lot of the stress involved in getting from here to there, as compared to a city like mine in which a person must drive everywhere.

    56. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Guido+del+Confuso · · Score: 1

      Yeah, about that. Turns out there was this, shall we say, "disagreement" that ultimately ended in 1865 with the whole South--Texas included--running back to its collective mommy. It's only by the graciousness of the rest of us that Texas is even allowed in our club. Oh, go ahead and thump your chest and pretend you'd be fine on your own. We'll let you play pretend.

      Losing the Civil War was the best thing that could have happened to the South. Slavery was on its way out anyway, and with it pretty much the whole of the exploitation economy. It wouldn't have been a decade before the South descended into becoming a third world poverty stricken hellhole, and the North went ahead and reclaimed it for good measure.

    57. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woosh.

      That was the sound of the earlier post going right over your head.

      Let me give you an example of what he was talking about: Last summer I'm walking around a small town taking pictures when an older couple stops and asks me for a suggestion of where to eat. I'm running down the list of what's close by and tell them about a great little Italian place around the corner. It's run by an Italian family that immigrated from Milan a couple years ago and the place really reminds me of the little shop that was downstairs from my apartment when I lived in Naples. When suddenly a woman passing b interrupts the conversation, telling the couple to forget about eating there because she is from New York City and if it's not in the city then there's no way it could be good Italian.

      That's the kind of rude bitch that was being referred to.

    58. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you know?

    59. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Arterion · · Score: 1

      As an American, I say:

      Walking 30 minutes to go to a restaurant? Are you out of your mind?

      That's all. :D

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    60. Re:Just visit Manhattan by chiefloko · · Score: 1

      The "Use To Be Syndrome", is a poor argument at best...as I have lived "here" for X amount of years and whenever someone says they lived "there" for Y amount of years before "here" and suchandsuchwassomuchbetter...I say why don't you go back "there?"

    61. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Arterion · · Score: 1

      That said, do you think there's an "optimal" size for a city?

      I like living out in the country, but I'd also like to be close to a relatively large city, where I can find just about anything I need -- even if it's not open 24/7.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    62. Re:Just visit Manhattan by CTachyon · · Score: 1

      I lived in San Francisco for 7 years after university, and became accustomed to urban life - having things open 24 hours, having china town a few steps away, having everything so close and easy to get to. On the other hand I always felt distracted, stressed, and like I was unable to do half the things I wanted because of crowds, traffic, too long of lines, waiting lists for restaurant reservations, you name it. I was not being very productive as I was always thinking about the logistical ramifications.

      Funny thing for me is, I just moved to San Francisco about a year ago and I feel more relaxed than ever. Driving, parking, gas prices? Pfft, sell the car and take Muni. Lines? *shrug* If it's worth waiting for, I wait for it. Otherwise I go somewhere else. There's always somewhere else, and it's probably in walking distance. (It helps that, as nice as e.g. the Slanted Door is, I'm perfectly happy with a burrito or a burger. I don't set a very high bar when it comes to enjoying food or events.)

      The best part for me is leaving behind the car: all I need is my Muni fast pass and my smartphone and I can go anywhere in the city purely on a whim. That's very liberating. No worrying about "where am I going to park the car?", or "where *did* I park the car?", or "did I lock the car?", and so on. It's very different from when I grew up in Wichita, KS. In Wichita, a car is mandatory to get around, and I always felt tethered to it and a bit resentful of it. In SF, I feel like the entire city is at my fingertips. This alone removed a surprisingly large amount of stress from my life and lets me focus on the here-and-now, instead of worrying about how I'm going to get from A to B or the logistics of transporting groups of friends. Or, for that matter, the logistics of getting home with a BAC above the legal limit.

      --
      Range Voting: preference intensity matters
    63. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Guido+del+Confuso · · Score: 1

      haha, dude, how many times are you going to post in this discussion??

      As often as it takes.

      what the heck happened to you in new york?!

      Nothing in particular, I'm just crotchety and cantankerous. Now get off my lawn.

    64. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Marsala · · Score: 1

      l2facetiousness

    65. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Guido+del+Confuso · · Score: 1

      Wow, that's a mighty big word for a Texan.

    66. Re:Just visit Manhattan by leereyno · · Score: 1

      What's the frequency Kenneth???

      --
      Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
    67. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Marsala · · Score: 1

      Here's another one I found in the only other book I've read that wasn't the Bible:

      banal

    68. Re:Just visit Manhattan by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      True. I've been to NYC many times before, and that was the first time I had seen that type of behavior. But the contrast was striking, as was the contrast in how people interacted. I'm not saying that NYC is bad in general, but that everything is quicker and more intense there.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    69. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you take a taxi, or do you have a designated (sober) driver, or do you not drink alcohol?

      Thirty minutes barely counts as a walk.

    70. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I've lived in NYC for 21 years now, and I tend to focus on something pleasant while walking. Usually I'm trying to get somewhere, but regardless if I'm riding my bike to work through Central Park, or walking across town, the city is full of pretty girls and interesting things to look at. Even the moss in front of La Grenouille is quite striking.

      I imagine most commuters spend their time looking at the car in front of them. Don't think I'll give up the pizza or the bagels for a better memory of a more boring life. But maybe that's just me (and 10 million other New Yorkers - yes we're all morons, stay in the flyover states please).

    71. Re:Just visit Manhattan by mi · · Score: 1

      Ask anyone who has lived in New York about pizza, or public transportation, or pretty much anything else for that matter and the conversation will eventually turn to how much better New York is than wherever it is they currently happen to be. One wonders why they don't just go back and stay there.

      Pizza is Ok, although I had better while in Boston. Public transportation sucks royally with bad trains, mumbling announcements, unapologetic route-changes, rude and LOUD "fellow passengers", and ugly advertisements. Despite being on an ocean-shore (and saddling two sizable rivers), the air quality is pretty bad too.

      We are renovating a newly-bought house in New Jersey, and every time I get there, I'm amazed, how much better the air is, and how much nicer people are. I mean, sales-clerks are not only polite, but also tend to know their wares!

      When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe.
      Thomas Jefferson

      That "Democrats" keyword next to this story is quite justified...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    72. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where did you go Times Square? FYI, we locals never go there.

    73. Re:Just visit Manhattan by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Your point about being able to drive out is obviously still true, but it isn't as necessary here as in many (most?) other cities.

      Just as well, as driving in a car you average about five miles an hour most of the time in London (in fact any time except 4.37 am on Sunday), so it takes a while to get out of the city.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    74. Re:Just visit Manhattan by xaxa · · Score: 1

      ...As I realised last week, when someone gave me a bike. Fulham to Putney in just 15 minutes? Crazy! And I haven't tried cycling into Central London yet.

    75. Re:Just visit Manhattan by xaxa · · Score: 1

      As a Brit (and a Londoner), I was amazed when I was driven for about an hour to visit a restaurant in the USA.

      I like walking before a meal anyway, it's a chance for some fresh air and to work up an appetite.

    76. Re:Just visit Manhattan by xaxa · · Score: 1

      One official "The City" is a region of London -- the oldest part that used to be the limits of the city many, many years ago with walls round it.

      Someone in London might say "I'm going to the city", meaning they're going to that old part.

      Someone outside London probably has no idea where they're going anyway, and since most of the City is London's first financial district (the second being Canary Wharf), they will primarily think of the City in the same way Americans think of Wall Street.

      Wikipedia even has it on the disambiguation page for City: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_(disambiguation) (Hopefully shows I'm not talking out of my arse.)

    77. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Arterion · · Score: 1

      Most Americans don't spend 30 minutes a week walking. As for alcohol, I don't drink often, and I usually have someone sober drive me. I don't usually drink at resturants, but at bars or clubs. In the case of the latter, unless I have a driver, I'll only get a couple drinks when I first arrive, then not leave for at least 3 hours. The main club I go to has a 24/7 cafe just down the street, and I've sobered up there many, many nights before driving home.

      Worse case scenario, I get a blanket out of the trunk and curl up in the back seat until I'm sober.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    78. Re:Just visit Manhattan by Arterion · · Score: 1

      For me, it depends on the weather. If the weather is nice or a little cold, I don't mind walking. But if it's hot and humid out, I'll get all hot and sweaty out walking, then just feel dirty when I finally get to the restaurant.

      A lot of urban areas in the US see people walking, but where I used to live, it was a 15-20 minute DRIVE to reach the nearest restaurants. Walking isn't realistic for every locale.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
  3. What natural setting? by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Natural settings don't require the same amount of cognitive effort.

    A jungle or other wild forest does. It is living in cultivated land (farmland or even managed forests) that requires an unnatural low amount of cognitive effort.

    1. Re:What natural setting? by TheP4st · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Having spent significant time in both subtropical wild nature and Scandinavian forrests as well as busy cities like New York, Hong Kong, Manila I beg to differ. While the amount of sounds in a subtropical forrest can be very large they in no way compare to the unnatural sounds of blaring car horns, screaming cab drivers, car engines, hordes trampling another (somethimes to death) during sales season. The former I (and probably most people) find peaceful and the latter stressing. The danger of getting harmed is also much greater in the latter, be it by crossing 5th avenue at the wrong moment or looking at a unstable stranger. Sure, being in the wild also involve a certain amount of danger and it's subsequent cognitive effort but, I am convinced that it is not even anywhere near to what is the case in a modern large city.

      --
      "I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
    2. Re:What natural setting? by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Both the jungle as the city require constant attention. Otherwise you get eaten by a random animal or hit by a car.
      On cultivated land the worst that could happen to you is peeing on a electrified fence.

    3. Re:What natural setting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that they mean everything but city.

    4. Re:What natural setting? by little1973 · · Score: 5, Funny

      bush, bush, tree, bush, tiger, bush, oh wait...

      --
      Government cannot make man richer, but it can make him poorer. - Ludwig von Mises
    5. Re:What natural setting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A jungle or other wild forest does. It is living in cultivated land (farmland or even managed forests) that requires an unnatural low amount of cognitive effort.

      The sentence before:

      This sort of controlled perception -- we are telling the mind what to pay attention to -- takes energy and effort.

      Perhaps they meant that in a natural sourrounding you pay attention on these things subconsciously, which might require less energy and effort.

    6. Re:What natural setting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Natural settings don't require the same amount of cognitive effort.

      A jungle or other wild forest does. It is living in cultivated land (farmland or even managed forests) that requires an unnatural low amount of cognitive effort.

      No; the point with the cognitive effort required in urban areas is not that we have to constantly look out for dangerous animals/cars (seriously, when was the last time you were hit by a car? I feel quite save in an urban environment), but rather that we have to ignore all these noises and lights, because they are irrelevant. And this is what I find most stressful in cities.

      Your citation was the sentence following this quote:

      A city is so overstuffed with stimuli that we need to redirect our attention constantly so that we aren't distracted by irrelevant things. This sort of controlled perception -- we are telling the mind what to pay attention to -- takes energy and effort.

      In a jungle, you have to look out for a handful of dangerous animals (most of them usually run away as soon as they notice humans coming along) and some toxic plants, that's all.

    7. Re:What natural setting? by xaxa · · Score: 1

      So for you the problem isn't the city, the problem is the traffic, both the noise and the danger. (Without the huge amount of road space given over to cars, there'd be a lot more room for hordes in the sales season.)

      Pedestrian-only areas in cities are great :)

    8. Re:What natural setting? by bentcd · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Both the jungle as the city require constant attention. Otherwise you get eaten by a random animal or hit by a car.

      Large predators are pretty rare and those that do skulk around will generally be skeptical at attacking something as large and unfamiliar as a human. They will tend to need to be rather desperate to even try. Paranoid prey animals are probably more dangerous but often occur in herds so are easy to spot and avoid. (Malevolent mother moose notwithstanding.)
      The real dangers of the jungle are those that I am not trained to spot anyway so I might as well not waste much effort in trying: poisonous critters, unsafe food, dangerous camping grounds, etc.

      On cultivated land the worst that could happen to you is peeing on a electrified fence.

      Cattle, on the other hand, are used to humans and don't necessarily think twice before deciding to shift their weight around.

      --
      sigs are hazardous to your health
    9. Re:What natural setting? by huit · · Score: 1

      The human brain and nervous system evolved in the presence of natural stimuli and is prepared for these. Often the kinds of shortcuts it made to handle this information worked well in our evolutionary history but fail us now.
      Additionally cities are human constructs and as such attract a great deal of attention from human brains, a cockroach would likely not feel as significant a difference in the surroundings (forest-city)

    10. Re:What natural setting? by value_added · · Score: 1

      A jungle or other wild forest does. It is living in cultivated land (farmland or even managed forests) that requires an unnatural low amount of cognitive effort.

      Excellent point.

      I'd also add that humans, undoubtedly like all creatures, have the capacity to decide how much cognitive effort is required in a given context, and how that effort should be focused. It's possible, for example, (but hardly advisable) for a student to study while listening to music, and a dog, while gifted with a superiour sense of hearing, is perfectly capable of tuning out blaring music while being sensitive for the sounds of a cat's meow, another's dog bark, or someone saying dinner's ready.

      The general point that unwanted or excessive stumuli is "tiring" is perfectly valid but that said, it sounds like the researchers have been reading too much Thoreau.

    11. Re:What natural setting? by Servo · · Score: 1

      I dunno about you but I feel a lot more safer crossing 5th Ave than being out in the wild where I might get mauled by a bear or some sort of big cat.

      --
      A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
    12. Re:What natural setting? by registered_after_8_y · · Score: 1

      Maybe there is as much stimuli in a jungle/forest, but bear in mind that our brains have been tuned for that over a long time, so it is probably not unnatural and thus as hard for the human cognitive system to cope with

    13. Re:What natural setting? by wickerprints · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is not only incorrect, but it is also not the point of the original article. First of all, I will address your specific statements. Being in the wilderness is not less stressful than being in civilization. That flies in the face of our entire human history. You, a modern human, only enjoy the wilderness now as a convenience brought to you by the comforts of modern technology. Where and how do you get your food, shelter, water, safety? It is illogical to compare being run over in the street with some romanticized notion of idyllic nature, because you have been far removed from primary threats to existence such as disease, predation, exposure, and starvation.

      Second, the point of the article is that urban environments are cognitively distracting compared to a natural setting. That may be true but it is also pointless. What is the base level of cognitive ability? Did the study compare attention and mental focus for individuals who are simply sitting comfortably in their home doing nothing? It stands to reason that if there is a correlation between environment and cognition, the most safe and peaceful environment would provide the best result. But I object to this kind of weakly disguised propaganda that continues to romanticize and idealize the superiority of "nature." Don't get me wrong, I enjoy being outdoors. But I have no illusions that my ability to enjoy being outdoors is ENTIRELY predicated upon the fact that my safety and well-being is facilitated by the comforts of modern human civilization and technology.

      I accept the fact that I don't have the ability to be tossed into the wild and survive. I don't need to. Moreover, I don't WANT to. Why would I want to spend most of my day worrying about where my next meal is going to come from, or providing for basic safety? That is how we all lived thousands of years ago, and that is how many people in underdeveloped countries continue to live today. There is a very good reason why humans discovered the benefits of civilization long ago. The notion that civilization is evil and we should embrace nature and return to a nomadic life is yet another insult to those who live in squalor and desperation among us.

    14. Re:What natural setting? by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In the wilderness you can rely on your ears and even your nose to help alert you to danger.

      In the city the only thing you got are your eyes. and that does in fact stress out the brain because it no longer has any ability to spread around the processing. Plus Humans are not Herd creatures, and we honestly are uncomfortable in a herd. Yet oversized cities stuff us into the giant herd and it stresses us out.

      Yes I cant think as well when in a large herd of people. Go to a hockey or baseball game and try to think of some mathematical exercise while navigating the herd.

      Now do the same in the wilderness alone.

      I can do it on a hike, in fact most of my "AHA!" moments are when I am out in the wild. Hell when I'm sardine canned like we get at concerts and baseball games I can barely carry on a conversation.

      Although you can clear a path around you really quick if you say loudly, "OH I'm GONNA PUKE!" suddenly everyone around you will get out of your personal space. The threat of being puked on is a wonderful thing when forced into the herd.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    15. Re:What natural setting? by master_p · · Score: 1

      ...black mamba... (over 100 km/h speed!)

    16. Re:What natural setting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's just because you know how to avoid cars, but not how to avoid bears.

    17. Re:What natural setting? by jezreel · · Score: 1

      Hell when I'm sardine canned like we get at concerts and baseball games I can barely carry on a conversation.

      Why would you want to carry on a conversation while being at a concert or attending a baseball game? I mean, you could do that at home (or in the wilderness if you want)

      --
      0 001 11 1
    18. Re:What natural setting? by wickerprints · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Huh??? Your ability to sense and process that sensory input is not a function of the surrounding environment; it is mainly a function of physiology.

      I'm not talking about herds. I'm talking about living in a human societies, pooling resources, and the very clear anthropological and sociological advantages to collective living. In case I am still not being understood, we humans have developed and adapted to the civilization model. That has nothing to do with going to crowded baseball games. I am trying to explain that most people who live in cities have taken for granted the clear evolutionary advantages of doing so, to the point that now we talk fondly about how wonderful it would be to live among nature again, which is bollocks. It's romanticizing the harsh reality that nature is full of hazards and stresses, and people only think of nature as idyllic because they can always return to society and fall back on technological conveniences when nature decides to, say, drop a blizzard on your head or have a jaguar rip your arm off.

      Finally, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, it seems that there's a logical fallacy being applied in your reasoning. That it is difficult to do math in your head while navigating a busy crowd doesn't mean the busy crowd is therefore to blame, any more than doing math is hard while you're writing an essay or doing anything else that is cognitively distracting. That's why I pointed out that the study is stupid. It's basically saying "people can't think as well when distracted." DUH. Who is arguing that? But then to take that self-evident statement and somehow place it in the context of nature vs. civilization and then conclude that we should somehow eschew city life for some idyllic nature fantasy, well that's about as stupid as anyone can get.

    19. Re:What natural setting? by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      "I accept the fact that I don't have the ability to be tossed into the wild and survive. I don't need to. Moreover, I don't WANT to. Why would I want to spend most of my day worrying about where my next meal is going to come from, or providing for basic safety?"

      Seconded. If nothing else, one of the great lessons Boy Scouts teaches by repeated and extended campouts is that:
      - cooking in primitive conditions is difficult and time-consuming (and this is when all the food's already been gathered/prepared)
      - getting good rest is critical (and this is in entirely safe places)
      - simply BEING DRY for any length of time is nigh unto heaven.

      I don't really like camping anymore. I'm glad I did it a lot, and have some fundamental skill sets if I ever need them. But as a negative lesson illustrating the simple values of shelter and a place to sleep, it's unparalleled.

      --
      -Styopa
    20. Re:What natural setting? by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I dunno about you but I feel a lot more safer crossing 5th Ave than being out in the wild where I might get mauled by a bear or some sort of big cat.

      Perhaps you should recalibrate your risk perceptions, which appear to be influenced by fairy tales.

      Where I used to live (it's now our cottage), there are both bears and wolves. I've never seen them, but I've found bear scat in our forest several times - it's quite different from that of the elk, deer, lynx, and so forth which also live there. Wolf scat is less distinctive, but a pack of wolves has been sighted in the area. Predators are much less numerous and more predictable than the prey animals; you're likelier to be attacked by a horny elk in rutting season than by a bear.

      Crossing a city street is more dangerous than wandering in a wild forest, even a forest known to have bears and wolves. Even staying "safely" on the sidewalk, you are at a significant risk of being hit by a vehicle (drunk/distracted/demented driver, mechanical malfunction, etc.).

      Humans evolved to be in communities, but not in cities. My opinion, having lived in large and small cities, and in the countryside: cities suck; big cities suck a lot more than small cities.

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    21. Re:What natural setting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where do _we_ get our food, shelter, safety? Look around. We get those because we're privileged. The majority doesn't.

    22. Re:What natural setting? by hobbit · · Score: 1

      Humans evolved to be in communities, but not in cities.

      [CITATION NEEDED]

      My opinion

      [AH, I SEE]

      --
      "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
    23. Re:What natural setting? by shiftless · · Score: 1

      You should study anthropology some time. Most 'primitive' hunter-gatherer/agricultural cultures of the past had higher standards of living than our culture does, in many ways. They usually didn't spend all day every day worrying about where the next meal was coming from, like you assert. When they needed meat, they would hunt. They planted crops, built houses, etc. They generally had a lot of free time. How do you think these cultures were able to make technological advancements in the first place? What is civilization, if not for technological advancement? A person who is constantly hungry and struggling to survive isn't going to invent anything, and the many people who are barely getting by in NYC while living in squalor generally aren't inventing anything either. Seriously, how many of the famous inventors of the past did their work while living in a crowded row-house in Philadelphia compared to those living in big, comfortable houses out in the quiet countryside? The only reason disease and starvation is such a problem in places like Africa is because, well, it's Africa. The climate is hot and humid, and dangerous predators and insects are plentiful. The place is overcrowded in many areas and overcrowding combined with non-existent sanitation is deadly. That's why humanity did so well when it migrated northward into Europe. The predators were fewer, less deadly, and more manageable, the insects not nearly as problematic, etc.

    24. Re:What natural setting? by shiftless · · Score: 1

      I am trying to explain that most people who live in cities have taken for granted the clear evolutionary advantages of doing so, to the point that now we talk fondly about how wonderful it would be to live among nature again, which is bollocks.

      By your use of the word 'bollocks' I infer that you are a Brit, and as such have probably never experienced anything other than crowded urban living. I have lived out in the countryside in Alabama and I have spent much time in big cities. I can say without a doubt, hands down, country living is way easier and far less stressful--even if you are completely cut off from civilization and have had to hunt for your food, make fires, etc.

      because they can always return to society and fall back on technological conveniences when nature decides to, say, drop a blizzard on your head or have a jaguar rip your arm off.

      Yeah, until said blizzard takes out the power for weeks, like the big blizzard of '93. Oops, those wonderful 'technological conveniences' are now rendered worthless. Many clueless urbanites froze to death during that one. We burnt firewood in our 'primitive' wood heater and stayed nice and cozy throughout the ordeal.

      I've also spent a lot of time out in the woods here and I've yet to have the first jaguar leap out and rip my arm off. I guess that's because jaguars don't live in Alabama. I'm pretty sure they don't live in the UK either. That would be because the woodlands there (and here) are temperate forests, not tropical jungles. The only sort of dangerous creatures that live around here are pit vipers (small poisonous snakes), and they are easily avoided. I imagine the dangers of UK forests are similarly mild.

    25. Re:What natural setting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For strike distance. Which is what, a few feet?

    26. Re:What natural setting? by evil_arrival_of_good · · Score: 1

      Right on. Living without technology and civilization is a lust only idiots have.

    27. Re:What natural setting? by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      Your viewpoint that the choice is either civilization or "squalor and desperation" is both incorrect as well as paternalistic. It is incorrect in that, as another response pointed out, tribal and/or hunter-gatherer societies were not "poor" in any meaningful way, nor were they miserable. The Native American tribes had a pretty good life until they got destroyed by European settlers. And what was the settlers' excuse? "We're civilizing them".

      You are also making the paternalistic assumption that the world's poor are somehow "uncivilized". It is quite the opposite - the "poor", as we know them today, are WHOLLY a result of civilization. They are what happens when a society makes it's people dependent on others for their wellbeing, and then doesn't deliver those resources.

      When you consider that we have been "civilized" (Bronze Age) for about 5,000 years, but were a tribal society for almost three million years before that (Stone Age), I find it hard to believe that the latter was so horrible - we had existed that way for 99.84% of our time as a species.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    28. Re:What natural setting? by muellerr1 · · Score: 1

      In the wilderness you can rely on your ears and even your nose to help alert you to danger. In the city the only thing you got are your eyes. and that does in fact stress out the brain because it no longer has any ability to spread around the processing.

      I rely on my ears in the city all the time to let me know where cars are while I'm biking in the street. Ears are almost as effective as a rear-view mirror in city traffic. Moreover, why would only using your eyes to alert you to danger stress the brain? I don't buy your 'spread around the processing' argument--if that were true blind or deaf people should be more stressed out by their missing sense and that's just not the case. If you're in a dangerous environment, you will feel stress. The question is, do people really see a city street as all that dangerous? I don't.

      Plus Humans are not Herd creatures, and we honestly are uncomfortable in a herd.

      Just because you're agoraphobic and/or an extreme introvert doesn't mean everyone else is too. Besides, the fossil record says that humans are group animals.

      most of my "AHA!" moments are when I am out in the wild

      Most of my 'AHA' moments occur when I've been working on a problem intensely and then take a walk for five minutes. That usually allows me to attack the problem from a different direction by thinking about other things.

      This is not to say that I don't enjoy being in nature to relax, but the reason I'm relaxing is because I'm not stressed out about work and other problems of daily life, not because I somehow belong in the woods instead of the city. I can also relax by hanging out with my family and friends at a party.

    29. Re:What natural setting? by AaxelB · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Whoa whoa whoa, who the hell brought up eschewing city life for an idyllic nature fantasy? (hint: you did) Stop jumping to other people's conclusions for them. Here's a quick summary of the discussion so far, as I see it:

      Someone: Nature is feels safer and is less distracting than busy, urban environments.
      You: That's wrong! The only reason you find nature relaxing is that you have the comforts and conveniences of modern civilization to protect you and to go back to.
      Someone else: It's easier to think clearly in nature than in a crowded, loud place like cities.
      You: No, nature is not superior to civilization, and the only reason you think so is that you're romanticizing nature while taking advantage of all the benefits of society.

      It's very true that being immersed in nature would likely be much less relaxing (and less distraction-free) if not for civilization, but does that change the fact that nature is indeed relaxing for many (most?) people? And that is indeed a better place to think (for many)? Nobody's suggesting stripping naked, smearing ourselves with mud, running into the woods, and hunting deer with a stick, but thanks to modern civilization much of nature is a safe, relatively tranquil place which is good for deep thinking.

    30. Re:What natural setting? by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      Large predators are pretty rare and those that do skulk around will generally be skeptical at attacking something as large and unfamiliar as a human. They will tend to need to be rather desperate to even try. Paranoid prey animals are probably more dangerous but often occur in herds so are easy to spot and avoid.

      Are you describing the jungle, or the "urban jungle"? What you've written is applicable to both.

    31. Re:What natural setting? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Plus Humans are not Herd creatures

      Yes they most certainly ARE herd creatures, at least most of them. Most of us here probably aren't, but most non-slashdotters are.

      Take a trip on the interstate doing five or ten MPH less than the speed limit. You will see few cars by themselves. You will go along the road for miles without seeing another car, and a herd of them will pass, then you have the road to yourself again. And like herds of other animals, they herd to avoid predators (on the highway a preditor drives a car with flashing blue lights on top).

      Why do you think fads happen? People blindly follow the herd, and never even realize that they are.

    32. Re:What natural setting? by ChienAndalu · · Score: 1

      Wild forests aren't the "natural habitat", savannas are. The human species spent most of the time in savannas

      It's even documented in a study on Evolutionary Aesthetics

      From Stephen Pinkers book "How The Mind Works":

      In experiments on human habitat preference, American children and adults are shown slides of landscapes and asked how much they would like to visit or live in them. The children prefer savannas, even though they have never been to one. The adults like the savannas, too, but they like the deciduous and coniferous forests â" -which resemble much of the habitable United States â" just as much. No one likes the deserts and the rainforests. One interpretation is that the children are revealing our speciesâ(TM) default habitat preference, and the adults supplement it with the land with which they have grown familiar.

      Disclaimer: I'm not an anthropologist, I just read the book a while ago

      Sorry for the broken Unicode. It's /.s fault.

    33. Re:What natural setting? by DigitalHammer · · Score: 1

      badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, MUSHROOM MUSHROOM :P

    34. Re:What natural setting? by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      when nature decides to, say, drop a blizzard on your head or have a jaguar rip your arm off.

      Yeah a city is so much safer...

      Kill the power or have a natural disaster...

      your neighbor robs you and kills you, no different than in the wild.

      Want to try an experiment on how civilized we are? go get $500.00 in $1.00 bills. go to a busy street and throw them up in the air hard and see how many people will be trampled or hurt, and all the incredibly uncivilized behavior that happens. That experiment will show you people's real side.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    35. Re:What natural setting? by immcintosh · · Score: 1

      Tell me about the cities that were around when humans were still in their "formative years" of evolution, as it were. Otherwise I'm going to have to agree with the GP that this particular claim rather goes without saying.

    36. Re:What natural setting? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      True - a city slicker being transported into any remote wilderness will be very stressed. But provide basic shelter and food for a week, and then watch the stress levels drop like a rock. Have you ever stayed in a mountain cabin? A rainforest hut? As long as food is stocked, it's about the most peaceful you can get. Rainforests have a bit of an issue with malaria and fire/bullet ants, but that's really the biggest danger you'll face.

      The point is that if basic needs are settled, a big city environment is more stressful than pretty much any other environment.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    37. Re:What natural setting? by immcintosh · · Score: 1

      But I have no illusions that my ability to enjoy being outdoors is ENTIRELY predicated upon the fact that my safety and well-being is facilitated by the comforts of modern human civilization and technology.

      I would argue that your point is as subtly misguided as the person to whom you are responding. Your argument is predicated on the fact of your being a fundamentally urban person, and being essentially helpless if you were transplanted into the wilderness. The argument would work exactly the same way for a person who only knows the wilderness being transplanted into a city (although I would argue that he would be at an even greater disadvantage). In other words, this line of reasoning says, to me at least, nothing about whether one or the other is inherently more comfortable--it's simply what you're used to.

      And getting back to the point of the argument, which has absolutely nothing to do with that at all, what's really at issue here is which environment requires more cognitive effort to deal with. I think the easiest way to put it is this: go to a busy urban street and tell me how many moving objects there are--your mind, whether you are conscious of it or not, is almost certainly expending some effort to track each and every one of them to some degree. Now go into the wilderness and tell me how many moving objects you have to track. The difference is going to be of several orders of magnitude.

    38. Re:What natural setting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't accept your use of "we" to include creatures like Homo Habilis and Homo Erectus, or Homo Sapiens with no complex language. Behaviorally modern humans first appeared 40,000 to 50,000 years ago. Agriculture or pastoralism has been around for 10,000 to 15,000 years, depending on how you define it. So "we" have been hunter-gatherers for only around 65% to 80% of our existence so far.

      Not that this is an argument for the beneficence of the hunter-gatherer lifestyle: If you have gone without food for 30 days and then eaten today, you could equivalently argue that of the past 31 days, you spend 96.8% of your time without food, therefore going without food isn't so bad. This is clearly nonsense - the amount of time you spend engaged in a bad activity does not diminish its badness.

      In fact, the level of "squalor and desparation" in a hunter-gatherer society is entirely dependent on its population and available resources. Some areas are so rich that hunter-gatherers were able to build permanent settlements and remain stationary for many years at a time. In those areas, an individual might not need to spend more than an hour a day on food production, and would have a great deal of leisure time. In areas with marginal food resources or too much population, life might be difficult indeed. People living in those areas could justifiably be called "poor."

      Finally, you may be confused about the nature of Native American life just prior to the arrival of Europeans. They were neither primitive nor uncivilized. Hunter-gatherers could not have produced the architecture, religion, artwork, organized warfare, or bureaucratic governments that were widespread in the pre-Columbian era. It makes no sense to drag the immediate pre-Columbian Native Americans into a discussion of hunter-gatherers.

      At the time of Columbus, the arriving Europeans had progressed through the Iron Age and into a pre-modern technology of clockwork, wind power, steel, cannons, etc. They assumed that the Native Americans were simply primitives who had failed to emerge from the Bronze Age. In fact, the Native Americans had moved along a different track, to something that might be called the Plant Age. Native American agriculture incorporated an extensive technology of artificial selection and cross-breeding, which resulted in many of the modern world's most useful plant species: corn, squash, peanuts, potatoes, rubber, tobacco, etc. These fantastically useful plants don't just exist by chance; they exist because some Mayan or Incan emperor issued a grant to some research department at Tenochtitlan or Chichen Itza or wherever.

      The new Native American-developed species (particularly cassava and peanuts) made it possible to support agriculture in large regions of Africa that had previously only supported hunter-gatherer cultures. Early agricultural cultures are generally characterized by military rule (warlordism) and a large subsistence-worker class (your "the poor"). These are precisely the characteristics we see in Africa today.

      It may be the case that the U.S. and Europe are morally culpable for failing to provide more resources for the betterment of African living conditions. But to say that "civilization" is responsible for "the poor" is entirely off the mark.

    39. Re:What natural setting? by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      I imagine the dangers of UK forests are similarly mild.

      You've never seen Harry Potter have you? ;)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    40. Re:What natural setting? by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      and a herd of them will pass, then you have the road to yourself again

      You know, I never thought of that before but your absolutely right. Pretty interesting how that happens isn't it?

      Formerly known as sm62704 [slashdot.org]

      Hey, how come I never made your friends list? :(

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    41. Re:What natural setting? by Skrapion · · Score: 1

      In the wilderness you can rely on your ears and even your nose to help alert you to danger.

      In the city the only thing you got are your eyes.

      Really? You don't turn your head when you hear tires screeching? Hell, just sit at an intersection with your eyes closed and you'll realize how easy it is to tell when the traffic starts and stops and when it changes direction.

      Yes I cant think as well when in a large herd of people. Go to a hockey or baseball game and try to think of some mathematical exercise while navigating the herd.

      Now do the same in the wilderness alone.

      See, I'm not so sure about that. When I'm walking in the city, I can be completely oblivious to my surroundings until I hit the next intersection; when I'm walking in a forest, I have to constantly stare at the ground to make sure I'm not tripping over a tree trunk.

      I can do it on a hike, in fact most of my "AHA!" moments are when I am out in the wild.

      "AHA!" moments make you feel really smart, but don't assume they're your only source of inspiration.

      There was a study that was done a while ago where two ropes were hung from the ceiling, out of arms reach from each other, and test subjects were asked to tie the ropes together. There were many objects in the room, and many ways to solve the puzzle, but there was one solution that most of the subjects never thought of: swing one of the ropes, grab the other one, and wait for the first one to swing back and reach your grasp.

      So the researches started sending somebody in the room to just walk through the room and lightly brush against one of the ropes, setting it swinging ever so slightly. All of a sudden, almost all of their test subjects realized the solution. But you know what? None of them realized where they got the idea from!

      So, having lots of stimuli could be an even better source of inspiration, even if you aren't conscious of it.

      --
      The details are trivial and useless; The reasons, as always, purely human ones.
    42. Re:What natural setting? by metlin · · Score: 1

      Personally, I'd rather have big, crowded cities (e.g. NYC) and the idyllic countryside, rather than urban sprawls (e.g. small cities/towns which are neither dense cities, nor idyllic countrysides).

      You have the benefits of getting everything whenever you want it, and all the conveniences, and you can go to the countryside when you want to.

    43. Re:What natural setting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I once swam a mile out to an isolated point off the mendocino coast. Almost drown. I had to ditch my weight belt, and had no flotation device. I took refuge on a rock covered in sea palm and mussels. There was no sign of civilization. I spent a half an hour watching the swells roll in and the sun breaking through the clouds onto the ocean. This was the most beautiful and peaceful moment in my life. Regardless of my doubt of making it back to shore.

    44. Re:What natural setting? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      If you were on the sm62704 fans list, not being on the mcgrew friends list was an oversight. I didn't keep a friends list with that account, but added everyone (I thought) from its fans list to this account's friends list. My policy is to add anyone who adds me, and to add /. editors because their journals are often helpful when using slashdot.

      I still have nobody in my foes list. I'm culling some in my present friends list, anyone who had friended sm62704 is on my friends list, but I've had this account back for a while and am removing anyone who has a green dot but no blue dot.

    45. Re:What natural setting? by EvilBudMan · · Score: 1

      but.. you gotta worry about that bear in the woods too. A grizzly can be very distracting.

      I live out in the country mostly. It's building up some but still, when our family visits from the city they hear all kinds of strange sounds to them at night in the summer. In the day time kids will throw rocks constantly because they sure don't get to do that in the city. I dunno the country can be distracting too plus unless you are rich, you have to have some survival training, like living without money at times. In the city you loose a job, there are more. In the country there are not that many.

      There is probably even more of a drug problem out here too. No gangs but everyone on something.

      BTW when I went to Boston I felt quite safe and not distracted at all. I dunno about these studies? I would like to become a grant writer so that I could get money for studying all kinds of foolishness. I think you can do that out in the country too.

    46. Re:What natural setting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously. I was a hundred times more alert to my environment in woods with animals that have been known to attack humans than I've ever been in the city.

    47. Re:What natural setting? by sirrobert · · Score: 1

      Not really ... try to imagine a jungle or other wild forest habitat/village with the same amount of attention-grabbing distraction as Manhattan; that would be truly bizzare. That is, unless you just mean out in the middle of the wild; but that would be a silly and unreasonable comparison. We could make up all sorts of fantastical scenarios about !!!X-TREME ATTENTION-GRABBING SETTINGS!!! (Next on Fox!) in which a human *might* find himself, but the point of the article is that an urban setting *in which people may commonly be found* is more distracting and energy intensive than a natural setting *in which people may commonly be found*. It's not like jungle dwellers (villages, etc.) fight off 3.9 tigers per hour or swat at 120344 deadly insects per day, though it's probably more intensive than a hike through Yellowstone. That might be the case in a particularly harsh jungle setting, but it's hardly to be counted normative for the considerations of this article, just as it would be to say cities are more focus-intensive because there are more terrorist attacks in cities.

    48. Re:What natural setting? by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Eh, I was just giving you grief. I just added you to my friends list :) I wish I could remember the password to my old 5 digit account.... :(

      I still have nobody in my foes list

      I haven't gained any new foes in awhile. Clearly I must be doing something wrong....

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    49. Re:What natural setting? by noidentity · · Score: 1

      bush, bush, tree, bush, tiger, bush, oh wait...

      Yeah, exactly.... FOUR Bushes! Two has been bad enough...

    50. Re:What natural setting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, oh no!, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, phew..

    51. Re:What natural setting? by Savione · · Score: 1

      "I call them Sycamore 1 and Sycamore 2--"

      "Arthur!"

      "I'm just telling you their names!"

      --
      See it there, a white plume over the battle - A diamond in the ash of the ultimate combustion - My panache. --Cyrano
    52. Re:What natural setting? by hobbit · · Score: 1

      Trousers weren't around when humans were still in their "formative years" of evolution. But I wouldn't use that as the basis for making any claim that wearing trousers is bad for humans.

      --
      "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
    53. Re:What natural setting? by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      I think you misread my post - I brought in Native Americans as an example of how, even though they were not "civilized" in the OP's (narrow) sense, it doesn't mean they suffered from "squalor and desperation". They had a pretty good life that was neither "civilized" nor "barbaric", which seemed to be the the only 2 options the OP could conceive.

      As for Homo Habilis and Homo Erectus, I disagree. Modern humans still have many biological and behavioral holdovers from that time. I simply cannot believe that behaviors and reactions developed over millions of years can be written off so blithely.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    54. Re:What natural setting? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I have a few freaks, but no foes.

      If you email help@slashdot.com, explain your situation and give them the email address the old account used you might get the account back, that's how I did it.

    55. Re:What natural setting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regardless of my doubt of making it back to shore.

      Don't leave us hanging! I've waited 24 hours now for followup, and I can't take it anymore. I have to know: did you ever make it back?

  4. The truth at long last ... by rohan972 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    But now scientists are finding that being in an urban environment impairs our basic mental processes. After spending a few minutes on a crowded city street, the brain is less able to hold things in memory and suffers from reduced self-control.

    Revenge at last. Suck it up, slickers!

    City slickers brains don't work properly, who'da thunk it? Guess that's why they can't trust themselves with guns.

  5. Brain Overload by bossanovalithium · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Isn't this similar to the report a while back saying that our brains are becoming affected by google browsing - information overload if it arrives in huge chunks is difficult to assimilate. Imagine you are on a plane for 10 hours - the white noise of the engine, and the bland colours - then you are off the plane, into the airport, a bustling place - you are tired, the airport is busy, and you feel overwhelmed.

  6. I find it stimulating by Nursie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wonder if they studied city people or country folk?

    Personally I like having that level of movement and activity around, I find it somehow comforting. I certainly don't find "coping" with city streets stressful, except when it's nearing christmas and all the f*ck-damned tourists are crowding up the place and getting in the way.

    Guess I've lived in the city long enough to not find it a problem.

    1. Re:I find it stimulating by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm feeling very ambivalent about this study. Sure, walking down a busy street requires concentration. And? If you look at it this way, it's actively improving your concentration.

      The truth is that most people work in office buildings that are not that busy, and they only spend a tiny fraction of their day in a busy and distracting environment. Honestly, this sounds like a study that was trying to find evidence that supports a predetermined conclusion.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    2. Re:I find it stimulating by adrianwn · · Score: 5, Funny

      The truth is that most people work in office buildings that are not that busy, and they only spend a tiny fraction of their day in a busy and distracting environment.

      An office environment is not distracting? Have you ever heard of e-mail, youtube or slashdot?

    3. Re:I find it stimulating by trolltalk.com · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The truth is that most people work in office buildings that are not that busy, and they only spend a tiny fraction of their day in a busy and distracting environment.

      An office environment is not distracting? Have you ever heard of e-mail, youtube or slashdot?

      Or shared cubicles. Or cubicles where you can hear EVERYTHING your coworkers are doing. Or the noise of dozens or hundreds of PCs.

      Since the city is supposed to hurt the brain, can I get a doctors' note to go work in the country instead of the office?

      Seriously, it's no wonder that I get more work done when I work from home than from the office.

    4. Re:I find it stimulating by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 1

      I deal with all those things on a daily basis. Nope, it's not that bad.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    5. Re:I find it stimulating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An office environment is not distracting? Have you ever heard of e-mail, youtube or slashdot?

      No... what are those?

    6. Re:I find it stimulating by easyTree · · Score: 4, Funny

      An office environment is not distracting? Have you ever heard of e-mail, youtube or slashdot?

      No. Certainly not the last one; it sounds like somewhere freaks would live.

      University of Michigan psychology research in the December issue of Psychological Science explored the cognitive benefits of interacting with nature and found that walking in a park in any season, or even viewing pictures of nature, can help improve memory and attention.

      Because the test subjects' brains were so bored during the *walk in the park* they jump for joy when given something to do. Ever see a hamster given a wheel for the first time?

    7. Re:I find it stimulating by pwizard2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Seriously, it's no wonder that I get more work done when I work from home than from the office.

      For me, it's the opposite. I find it easier to be productive at work, since there are fewer distractions.

      --
      "It is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen; that is the common right of humanity."
    8. Re:I find it stimulating by 4D6963 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If the noise of your coworkers is too distracting, turn up the AC. More noise (the "white" and continuous type) is recommended when specific and transient noises are distracting. But I guess the noise of the hundreds of PCs would help with that.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    9. Re:I find it stimulating by Lord+Ender · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Shared cubes? Cubes are insulting enough. If I were offered a job in a shared cube, I would laugh, walk out the door, then shit in front of their door. That's called reciprocity.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    10. Re:I find it stimulating by Mab_Mass · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Or shared cubicles. Or cubicles where you can hear EVERYTHING your coworkers are doing. Or the noise of dozens or hundreds of PCs.

      I read this article two people were having a conference call with a speakerphone about 8 feet from me. It sucked, and I could barely focus on this article, let alone the technical article that I need to read and understand to do my job.

      Distractions are bad.

    11. Re:I find it stimulating by Mab_Mass · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm feeling very ambivalent about this study. Sure, walking down a busy street requires concentration. And? If you look at it this way, it's actively improving your concentration.

      Your arguments reeks of truthiness but turns out to not be true. It turns out that relaxing your mind and focusing on single tasks promotes good health and positive mood.

      This has been scientifically demonstrated (The quick summary of the above link, for those too lazy to dig through the reference is that researchers found that a group of people receiving some mindfullness mediation training showed improvements in mood and in immune response compared to a control group.)

      If I may spin the article in this context, it seems that having a quiet mind is a very, very good thing, and that quiet, natural settings are more conducive to quiet minds that busy urban environments.

    12. Re:I find it stimulating by gnick · · Score: 1

      Since the city is supposed to hurt the brain, can I get a doctors' note to go work in the country instead of the office?

      Actually you may be able to, depending on how big your company is and what your job entails. If you can get your doctor to diagnose you with something that you can call a disability that prevents you from dealing with standard city commuting, your company may just decide to set you up to work from home rather than deal with a possible ADA headache. Of course, if you work in a small company or your job duties require a lot of stuff that can't be handled via computer, phone, or video conference, you're probably stuck dealing with real life.

      At my company, skipping the commute is an option for a lot of us (myself included). Personally I come in anyway.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    13. Re:I find it stimulating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sure, walking down a busy street requires concentration. And? If you look at it this way, it's actively improving your concentration.

      How do you figure?

      Are you saying that "using" your concentration is the same as "improving" it? In that case, the article actively disagrees, pointing (very broadly) to psychological research which suggests that ability to concentrate is a limited resource.

      The brain is not like a muscle which just "gets stronger" as you use it more. It's more like your eyes, which do not start seeing better the more you use them, and which may even get worse if you spend all day staring at, say, a computer monitor. It's more like a muscle which got worn down from your morning jog and cannot handle an afternoon jog.

      Brains are complicated. People think that by studying more they can learn more, then they burn themselves out with studying and forget everything. Phenomena such as retrograde interference still occur, and if you didn't learn that last bit of material too well because you're tired (you used up your capacity to concentrate and kept going anyway) but that last bit of material is interfering with your recall of the stuff you learned earlier... then you're in trouble!

      Seriously, brains are complicated.

    14. Re:I find it stimulating by Shakrai · · Score: 0

      Distractions are bad.

      I hope you appreciate the irony of saying that on Slashdot while sitting in your office "working" ;)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    15. Re:I find it stimulating by drsquare · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm feeling very ambivalent about this study. Sure, walking down a busy street requires concentration. And? If you look at it this way, it's actively improving your concentration.

      Except the more things you have to concentrate on and worry about at once, the lower your attention span becomes.

    16. Re:I find it stimulating by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I bet it works the same way as exercise: if you do a lot of sprints, you'll build fast-twitch muscles and become better at sprinting, while if you do marathons you'll instead build slow-twitch muscles and become better at marathon-running. Similarly, concentrating on one thing for a long time makes you better at concentrating while multitasking makes you better at multitasking.

      I don't think this is all that revolutionary of a concept, by the way...

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    17. Re:I find it stimulating by Mab_Mass · · Score: 3, Funny

      Distractions are bad.

      I hope you appreciate the irony of saying that on Slashdot while sitting in your office "working" ;)

      Consider this the post-modern, performance art way of proving my point.

    18. Re:I find it stimulating by siliconwafer · · Score: 2, Informative

      Time to get yourself some good music and noise canceling headphones!

    19. Re:I find it stimulating by metlin · · Score: 1

      +1.

      I've always lived in big cities for most of my life, and I rather enjoy it.

      Now while I certainly do enjoy the outdoors, I don't mind the crowds in a big city.

      I've a beautiful view of the lake here in downtown Chicago, and in some ways, it is almost reassuring to see a mass of people when you're going out to grab a cup of coffee.

      If anything, I find that crowded places and cities are quite efficient. Especially the more dense ones.

      I used to have to travel to Texas frequently, and on average, the wait at Starbucks for a line of 5 people was slower than a line of 20 in NYC or Chicago. And this was supposedly in a "city" (Dallas). Ditto for most other things. Post office? Fast food joint?

      People loiter around, and even getting on escalators is a pain.

    20. Re:I find it stimulating by Omestes · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I am a city person, and I wholly agree with the study (personally). But then again I think some degree of silence and solitude are necessary for the intellectual life (actually for focus, with is necessary for the intellectual life).

      I grew up in the city, but had the good fortune of going to college in the boonies, and I could tell the difference. A 20 minute hike would put you in the woods, completely away from anyone. There were no distractions. I could actually sit and read (in a deep way, not in the leisurely way) for hours without anyone talking to me ("what are you reading" is the most damnable question ever, btw).

      Part of this was because the lack of people, cars, etc... And part of it was due to the change in context. In the city we have constant reminders of our bust life, escaping the city escapes this context.

      It always is nice to get out of the range of the nearest cell-tower, off the roads, and away from the mindless chatter of others.

      For some reason I feel that the people who are against this study are the typical Americans who are frightened of silence since it allows introspection. Most people in cities, IMHO, exist largly as interactions, and are frightened on some level of what remains (if anything) when there is no more superfluous stimulus.

      Which brings me too; why the hell is there canned music EVERYWHERE in cities?

      Yes, I'm a slightly pissy misanthrope, so this might have something to do with it. And yes, I grew up in the 5th largest metropolitan area in the US, so I'm not a country boy.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    21. Re:I find it stimulating by etnoy · · Score: 1

      Or shared cubicles. Or cubicles where you can hear EVERYTHING your coworkers are doing. Or the noise of dozens or hundreds of PCs.

      I read this article two people were having a conference call with a speakerphone about 8 feet from me. It sucked, and I could barely focus on this article, let alone the technical article that I need to read and understand to do my job.

      Distractions are bad.

      Is it that I'm 'just' in my early 20s, or am I the only one who uses large, insulating headphones with music whenever I work in an office?

      And the speaker phones are not the worst, I find those who use handsfrees even worse, walking all over the place while talking (loudly) to their clients.

      My 0.02 (insert currency here)

      --
      Quantum hacker.
    22. Re:I find it stimulating by PaganRitual · · Score: 1

      Holy crap yes. You already had 5 points so I couldn't give you anymore. I've been moved from a high walled cubicle in the IT area which was all but silent when we weren't talking, apart from my coworkers keyboard strokes. Life was sweet.

      Some of us got moved (there wasn't enough room for all of us in the project group) to an area with two foot high walls instead of full cubicles, which we share with half a dozen women from some other area of the company that requires them to be on the phone all day, or talking about their work, or talking anyway, and they have commercial radio on, and constant visitors.

      All my distractions might be at home; games, books, movies, cats, but those are all voluntary (well except the cats) distractions. At work I have no choice but to hear the phone conversations, the talking, the radio, the constant interruptions.

    23. Re:I find it stimulating by Max+Littlemore · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Anecdotally, I just went away for a week and camped by a creek surrounded by trees. I went from being really stressed and unable to concentrate to being relaxed and focused. Co-workers have all commented on how healthy and happy I look and yesterday I did a days work in half a day, I'm sure because everything seemed so easy.

      As a comparison, last time I took a week off, I stayed in town and got back to work about the same as when I left.

      So I think this good exercise/stimulation argument is bollocks. If you are out in the ocean and have to tread water to stay afloat, does the continuous work make you better and staying afloat? Short term, say over a few hours, sure. Long term, absolutely not.

      Try a short holiday, even a weekend, surrounded by green, peace and quiet. You will see what I mean.

      --
      I don't therefore I'm not.
    24. Re:I find it stimulating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm feeling very ambivalent about this study. Sure, walking down a busy street requires concentration. And? If you look at it this way, it's actively improving your concentration.

      I know, it's like doing a study on weightlifters and saying that when they are lifting weights their muscles are straining in comparison to other people who are sitting quietly nearby, and so lifting weights is not good for your muscles.

    25. Re:I find it stimulating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which brings me too; why the hell is there canned music EVERYWHERE in cities?

      I can't begin to say how much I hate this. I once commented to a supervisor that the muzak that was being played in our workplace was distracting and was told that we weren't supposed to notice it; that it was intended to be background noise.

      Interesting theory, with one major flaw: most of the muzak was based upon pieces of music which had been favorites of mine growing up. It was like expecting me not to notice old friends being tortured and mutilated because it was just "background noise".

    26. Re:I find it stimulating by trolltalk.com · · Score: 1

      Some of us got moved (there wasn't enough room for all of us in the project group) to an area with two foot high walls instead of full cubicles, which we share with half a dozen women from some other area of the company that requires them to be on the phone all day, or talking about their work, or talking anyway, and they have commercial radio on, and constant visitors.

      Maybe it's time to start having phone sex during your breaks. LOUD phone sex. "Now meow like a cat. LOUDER, BITCH!" type phone sex.

      Or pretend you're a devoted fan of Jebus Radio and play THAT all day. And through out a few "Praise Jesus, Fuck yeah!" every time they look at you oddly.

      Then ask them if the voices in your head are too loud for them.

    27. Re:I find it stimulating by phision · · Score: 1

      Yes, but I think the better analogy would be: if you exercise 16 hours a day you will not become an athlete, but a wreck.

    28. Re:I find it stimulating by Omestes · · Score: 1

      Interesting theory, with one major flaw: most of the muzak was based upon pieces of music which had been favorites of mine growing up. It was like expecting me not to notice old friends being tortured and mutilated because it was just "background noise".

      A couple months ago I was taking my girlfreind out at a decent steak house that was playing nothing but instrumental takes of 90's rock. The truly surreal bit was hearing a plain old Nine Inch Nails instrumental over desert.

      But then again its in some big modern "supermall" that for some reason plays nothing but Soundgarden in the parking lot.

      Has the 90's become "retro" already?

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    29. Re:I find it stimulating by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      Most people work in environments that are never simultaneously quiet and private. I think this is one reason people still continue to choose cars rather than transit - it is the one time of the day when they are alone (in a relative sense) and can control their acoustic environment (again in a relative sense).

      I don't know... maybe I spent too much of my youth in the wrong kind of bars but I can't get comfortable in an environment where people are constantly going by my back. I want an office and a door - I hate the open office plans that are so popular these days and cubicles are barely better.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    30. Re:I find it stimulating by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      You must have a family or pets. What the heck are you doing on slashdot?

    31. Re:I find it stimulating by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      Dude, be careful what you say. There are a lot of people in the world with power who find nothing more amusing than play with the lives of other people like yourself, and make you do things just like you talked about. You think you won't do it?

    32. Re:I find it stimulating by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 1

      I have similar thoughts when I see/hear people mindlessly nattering away on cell phones - being alone with themselves seems to really unnerve them. When I was younger I was constantly amazed by the same scene/process that would play out countless times - you know the one, the "where/what shall we go/do now" discussion that would go on and on. It always seemed weird the number of friends who would end up going somewhere, or doing some activity, that they didn't really want to just so they would be with "the group" rather than being alone and doing something they actually enjoyed.

      --
      The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
    33. Re:I find it stimulating by jmcvetta · · Score: 1

      Seriously, it's no wonder that I get more work done when I work from home than from the office.

      I get the most work done when I can choose whether to work at the office or from home on a given day. It's not so much that one is more distracting than the other, as that they present different kinds of distraction.

  7. They needed to put a park there. by martin-boundary · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nonsense. This is the kind of semi-plausible revisionist bullshit that gives scientists a bad name. The park is a result of politics, New York simply wanted a stylish park to rival other big cities at the time, and they evicted the poor who already lived there to achieve that goal. It's got nothing to do with the need to improve people's mental faculties by communing with nature.

    1. Re:They needed to put a park there. by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      ...and they evicted the poor who already lived there to achieve that goal. It's got nothing to do with the need to improve people's mental faculties by communing with nature.

      You could say that it has something to do with improving the mental faculties of wealthier people?

      --
      Balderdash!
    2. Re:They needed to put a park there. by mbone · · Score: 1

      Well, and they also realized that the ability get semi-open farmland in Manhattan was rapidly disappearing. And they did pay for the land.

      Note that Central Park was thoroughly designed (including the placement of rocks, ponds, etc.) by Frederick Law Olmsted. It is not "wild" in any sense of the term, unless maybe there is a concert going on.

    3. Re:They needed to put a park there. by hobbit · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Besides, where else would they put a park? In the middle of the countryside upstate?

      --
      "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
    4. Re:They needed to put a park there. by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Beyond there, the park was originally north of the developed part of the city. All the stuff that surrounds central part right now was build decades later. The "poor who already lived there" were living in shanty towns, not really anything that would be considered part of a city, any more than the people they found living in an Amtrak tunnel a few years ago were. The park was originally conceived of as a way to retain some of the wilderness of Manhattan, which is a bit ironic considering that they brought in a team of landscapers.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    5. Re:They needed to put a park there. by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      It was conceived of as a way to retain the wilderness of Manhattan. Back then, it was considered OK to create a park that had the appearance of wilderness as part of achieving that goal.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    6. Re:They needed to put a park there. by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Yeah, right, parks upstate. We don't need parks upstate. We need people; this place has so few people that the economy scarcely exists.

    7. Re:They needed to put a park there. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and right they were to create such a park by displacing a few people. benefit of the whole and not just a handful of people I say...

    8. Re:They needed to put a park there. by hobbit · · Score: 1

      Build a city; they will come ;)

      --
      "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
    9. Re:They needed to put a park there. by binkx · · Score: 1

      Not really. Fredrick Law Olmstead (who designed Central Park and others), though he obviously wasn't aware of specific "cognitive" advantages of nature vs. urban settings, was a strong advocate of nature as a refuge from urban life. This was part of a whole 19th century movement (Emerson, Thoreau, Muir & the Transcendentalists) that advocated not only urban parks as necessary to the mental health of those living there, but National Parks as well. From all reports, urban living then was far worse than now and parks perhaps even more necessary.

  8. Quiet room by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Surely a nice quiet room can achieve the same thing?

    Basically dont walk down 5th Av when trying solve the (math?) problems of the world.

    1. Re:Quiet room by DuncanE · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I didnt tick Anonymous?????

  9. What a bunch of BS by mbone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    First, Central Park was put on the edge of the city when it was built. In the 19th century people tended to think ahead more.

    Second, I would bet the author has never actually been in a truly wild setting, where there are animals around that might hunt you. The wild is no place to be oblivious.

    Third, note this from the original article (really a press release) :

    The researchers also tested the same theory by having subjects sit inside and look at pictures of either downtown scenes or nature scenes and again the results were the same: when looking at photos of nature, memory and attention scores improved by about 20 percent, but not when viewing the urban pictures.

    If looking at pictures can help your memory its clearly not so much where you are, as what you are looking at. I wonder what city views they were showing, and whether, say, views of Paris or Prague would cause the same reaction.

    If what they are saying really boils down to that we need some beauty in our surroundings, they are a few thousand years behind the times.

    1. Re:What a bunch of BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this is why the Mac is the best computer to use if you respect your mind.

    2. Re:What a bunch of BS by dword · · Score: 1

      That's because, after living in a city for tenths of years, you're just sick of the same things: cars, crowded streets, artificial light, etc. If were to take someone who lived in the jungle and show them pictures of cars, crowded streets and put them in a room with artificial lightning, I bet they'd be very interested in everything and their attention will increase by about 20 percent.

      The article is slightly misleading, because it doesn't mention that anything in excess is bad (small doses of alcohol are helpful, but the trouble is that "excess" alcohol means even 100ml of something strong), it just says something along the lines of "the city hurts your brain because it's the city" instead if saying "the city hurts your brain because you've been living in it for too phucking long."

    3. Re:What a bunch of BS by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      Central park is where it is because they needed somewhere to graze cows so the city could have fresh milk. The same reason as almost every urban park in the world.

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    4. Re:What a bunch of BS by geekymachoman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He did not say it's better to live in the 'wild', rather, it's better to be in a more natural environments, small city's, village's ... etc.

    5. Re:What a bunch of BS by dword · · Score: 2, Informative

      He did not say it's better to live in the 'wild', rather, it's better to be in a more natural environments, small city's, village's ... etc.

      The plural for "city" is "cities" and the plural for "village" is "villages." No grammar nazism here, just helping a fellow.

    6. Re:What a bunch of BS by Carewolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There are more dangerous animals that would hunt and kill you in the middle of New York city than any wild area in the world.

      Please try to go outside once in a while, and don't believe the scaremongering.

    7. Re:What a bunch of BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Second, I would bet the author has never actually been in a truly wild setting, where there are animals around that might hunt you. The wild is no place to be oblivious.

      This is discussed elsewhere. It's a different kind of concentration necessary.

      when looking at photos of nature, memory and attention scores improved by about 20 percent, but not when viewing the urban pictures.

      If looking at pictures can help your memory its clearly not so much where you are, as what you are looking at.

      The things you are looking at (photographs or real things) certainly influence your feelings. Being reminded of a stressful environment may adversely effect you cognitive abilities, there's nothing strange about that.

      I wonder what city views they were showing, and whether, say, views of Paris or Prague would cause the same reaction.

      I think beautiful old buildings and bridges or some romantic scenery at the river may have a positive impact; it would be interesting what kind of pictures specifically were shown.

      I don't say I fully support this study and its implications, but for me it is entirely not surprising.

    8. Re:What a bunch of BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your allusion to the dangers of the wild doesn't apply in North America. Very few predators were dangerous to, or even particularly interested in man. Wolves and pumas were the only two real predators to be concerned of unless you were a child, in which case the smaller cats (bobcat, lynx) could be a concern. Yes, some poisonous snakes and spiders exist, or a slow-moving gila. Alligators. These all exist in regions of North America, but not in sufficient numbers to be as big of a concern as you raise.

    9. Re:What a bunch of BS by J4 · · Score: 1

      Come on now, the rats aren't that big.

    10. Re:What a bunch of BS by Dogtanian · · Score: 3, Informative

      Central park is where it is because they needed somewhere to graze cows so the city could have fresh milk. The same reason as almost every urban park in the world.

      Got any evidence for that? This seems to contradict that, and my understanding is that a lot of parks in the UK were created during the 19th century for the use of the growing urban population.

      Also, especially given the smaller size of cities in the pre-mass transportation area, I doubt that having the cows smack in a designated area in the middle of the city as opposed to any other pocket of green land or keeping them on the outskirts was very likely.

      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    11. Re:What a bunch of BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're the one who's afraid of the city, though he should go outside?

      I actually live in outback Australia (relatively), and here's what you need to keep an eye out for:

      Spiders, we have a lot of lethal spiders, and it's almost impossible to get rid of them. I've had huge problems with spiders. This is a year round problem, I've woken up twice with spiders on my face, I'm so desensitised to it now.

      Snakes, we have a lot of lethal snakes, and every year when it comes time to catch and kill them (Ever have to do that in the city?), is a dangerous time of year. They come out at the start of summer, and go for areas around the house.

      Kangaroo's, when I drive home from a mates and it's at around 2am, I need to have my wits about me, as kangaroos are all over this area. They randomly jump out in front of your car, and will write your car off. This has happened to a lot of friends of mine, and I always have to be weary of it.

      Then you got all sorts of other shit, especially if you want to go in the water.

      Long story short, I live out here, and there's a fuck load to keep an eye out for. When I go into the city, I don't worry half as much.

    12. Re:What a bunch of BS by indiechild · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I thought I was the only one who wakes up to find spiders on his face in the middle of the night. WTF. I wonder why they do that?

    13. Re:What a bunch of BS by mbone · · Score: 1

      I think you are thinking of Boston Commons, which was originally a common area for grazing.

      Central Park was designed as a park, and was never (as a park) used for grazing cows.

    14. Re:What a bunch of BS by mbone · · Score: 1

      No, I don't find it surprising, or even than objectionable. I was mostly reacting to the OP.

    15. Re:What a bunch of BS by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wolves and pumas were the only two real predators to be concerned of unless you were a child

      Wolves are generally pretty leery of human beings and go out of their way to avoid us. Pumas are more hit and miss -- some will avoid and some will try to ambush you. A buddy of mine had one jump out of cover at him and wound up having to shoot the poor thing.

      I think you forgot bears though. They will generally avoid you but if you surprise one or stumble upon Mama and her cubs you'd better have brought a change of underwear and a really big gun......

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    16. Re:What a bunch of BS by mbone · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, here in Virginia I see a fair number of poisonous snakes, and coyotes do from time to time kill kids out West, but for North America you are basically correct. There are, however, a lot of things that can hurt you, and that is what I intended to say. If you ever (say) sit down on a convenient rock next to a fire ant nest to change camera lenses (as I did once) you will forever after pay more attention to where you sit. Once you see a snake sunning behind a log you just stepped over, you pay more attention to where you step, etc.

    17. Re:What a bunch of BS by Cadallin · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Of course there are, now. But you don't see that many Smilodon out in your local park now do you?

      For the vast majority of human evolution, nature has been filled with large predators that were perfectly happy to eat a relatively slow, defenseless primate. It's only in the last 10,000 years that situation has been reversed.

    18. Re:What a bunch of BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just helping a fellow, good grammar will set you free.

    19. Re:What a bunch of BS by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Some of the biggest dangers in the wild are the animals you CAN'T see. The odds of getting eaten by a bear are low, and even most snakes are harmless. But, in addition to your fire ants, you also need to beware the evil tick! A cow-orkers wife got Lime Disease.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    20. Re:What a bunch of BS by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      the rats aren't that big.

      Have you ever seen a NYC subway rat? I assure you that they are that big ;)

      Either way though I think he was referring to a far more dangerous animal. One that Michael Bloomberg says you shouldn't have the ability to defend yourself against, unless you happen to be rich or well connected of course.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    21. Re:What a bunch of BS by johndmartiniii · · Score: 1

      Agreed. the methodology for this study apparently depends on utilizing the internal mental representations which the subjects carry rather than a response to stimulus.

      While there may be some truth to this idea (that cities are full of distractions, and that they are difficult for the brain to cope with), the study only shows that the internal mental representations of "city" versus "nature" have an effect on the cognitive response to stimuli. So, perhaps walking down a city street in the state produced by having just stared at pictures of forests and listening to recorded nature sounds is the recommended approach.

      On the anecdotal side: I live in Cairo and I'm a social scientist. I like to observe people and their behavior. Since moving here I have noticed that there are a lot of bright, quick-witted people in this teeming city. Then again, there are a lot of dull, slow-witted people as well. It seems to me that the differences between them lies not in stimulus to response-time correlation, but in the presence of higher-order logic in situations which require fast-response. In my anecdotal non-study, it would seem that the foreign expatriates who live here (who typically come from somewhere outside a large city in their countries of origin) lack the higher-order logic in their daily interactions on the street with people. It doesn't again present until they are out of the noise, off the street, and in a--for the English speakers--English-only environment again. Granted, there are loads of possible explanations for this, language being a glaringly obvious one, but it makes me wonder sometimes.

      The locals, on the other hand, are sharp as tacks when it comes to figuring out what to do next. They don't usually have a plan that goes beyond a few steps, but that doesn't matter. They are more fluid in their movements and there seems to be greater plasticity in their responses. Some would say opportunist, I would say adapted.

      Who knows though? This is all wild speculation, and so is TFA. This is a problem with these types of cognitive science studies, being that we still know very little about the inner workings of the human brain as it relates to the cognitive stuff that makes up a human person. This is not helped by the continued insistence of psychological models to hold on to the separation of "brain" and "mind" at the cognitive level. This was a sloppy oversight on the part of the writer of the summary, in this instance, and not the writers of TFA.

      --
      If you don't know what you're doing, you can't make mistakes.
    22. Re:What a bunch of BS by Abcd1234 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are more dangerous animals that would hunt and kill you in the middle of New York city

      Riiight... it's the GP that's the one who's scaremongering...

    23. Re:What a bunch of BS by NiteShaed · · Score: 1

      That's old fashioned grammar. Nowadays, the apostrophe is used to warn the reader "here comes an 's'". Otherwise, they may be startled if they weren't expecting it, and we all know that stress is bad for you. Safety first.

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    24. Re:What a bunch of BS by Don853 · · Score: 1

      Only because we've killed off most of the things that are dangerous.

      Bears (brown moreso than black) will hunt you for food but their range is pretty limited now. Moose, bison, and even elk can be quite dangerous if startled or at the wrong time of the year, but we've killed most of them too.

    25. Re:What a bunch of BS by kabocox · · Score: 1

      Second, I would bet the author has never actually been in a truly wild setting, where there are animals around that might hunt you. The wild is no place to be oblivious.

      You know that doesn't automatically rule out cities. I mean in the wild nature, you've only got animals to worry about. Now in a city, you've got many other humans to worry about. Which group would you rather be hunting you animals or humans?

      Actually, I'd think that most areas of cities are safe for 90% of the people that live there. There is always an area that the locals know is of a high crime rate and to avoid. It's when you are just passing through and don't know which areas are the wild ones to avoid where you give them the big chance to hunt you. That applies to natural areas as well as cities. ;)

    26. Re:What a bunch of BS by Alomex · · Score: 1

      Wolves are generally pretty leery of human beings and go out of their way to avoid us.

      Only if they are alone and not hungry. A pack of hungry wolves (for that matter, hungry feral dogs) will hunt you down.

    27. Re:What a bunch of BS by Swordsmanus · · Score: 1

      I don't know but whenever I take an hour nap in a huge lawn near my work, I get mobbed by spiders.

    28. Re:What a bunch of BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're forgetting that it's often not the big animals that are the most deadly. Have you ever heard of a little thing called "malaria"?

    29. Re:What a bunch of BS by vertinox · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There are more dangerous animals that would hunt and kill you in the middle of New York city than any wild area in the world.

      Actually, NYC has less murder to population ratio than even most rural areas these days.

      If you were talking about Detroit, Camdem, or Philadelhia...

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    30. Re:What a bunch of BS by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      A pack of hungry wolves (for that matter, hungry feral dogs) will hunt you down.

      Humans are pretty dangerous pray. Most animals (mammals at least) eventually learn this. Your odds of being attacked by a hungry wolf pack in North America are probably lower than your odds of being struck by lightning.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    31. Re:What a bunch of BS by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Please don't believe the scaremongering and go into New York sometime. It's the safest city in America!

    32. Re:What a bunch of BS by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 1

      They do it because they love you. They love you so very, very much.
      They just want to eat you up and inject their baby spiders under your warm, moist, nutritious skin.
      Nature is so beautiful, I just want to cry.
      But I cannot cry, because the spiders ate my eyeballs last night.

    33. Re:What a bunch of BS by Omestes · · Score: 1

      I would bet the author has never actually been in a truly wild setting, where there are animals around that might hunt you. The wild is no place to be oblivious.

      huh? We're not talking the deep wilds of Africa here, or deep rain forests where Jaguars might jump on your head. Most of the remaining wilds of the U.S. are rather tame, both due to us killing off the apex predators, we've familiarized the remants with us, and the fact that we don't look like prey.

      In my local desert, our big predator is the Mountain Lion (Puma, Cougar, whatnot), but in all my years in the back country I've seen ONE of them. I know they are there, but they are as frightened of us as we of them. The only time they attack people is in times of stress or starvation. Yes, they eat our stupid little dogs, and thats okay. After them we have coyotes, which are only scary to small children and small pets. I don't have to bring up foxes and bob cats.

      Down south we might have a jaguar (singular for now, unless they build the asinine border fence).

      In the woods you have black/brown bears and perhaps a couple reintroduced wolves. Of them the bear is only scary one time a year.

      Most predators don't bother you unless your doing something wrong. Let them have their space, they will let you have yours.

      They scariest things in most of Americas wilds are snakes and spiders. Snakes can be avoided easily, and generally don't seek out prey 100x their size. Spiders are everywhere, even in our "safe" cities.

      If you really think America's wilds are that dangerous, you need to spend some more time out of the city.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    34. Re:What a bunch of BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aye.

      I'm a wildlife biologist. I carry bear spray not for the bears and cougars but for the drunk, armed, and disorderly redneck who thinks I'm responsible for all his life problems.

    35. Re:What a bunch of BS by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Actually, NYC has less murder to population ratio than even most rural areas these days.
      If you were talking about Detroit, Camdem, or Philadelhia...

      Touché - I didn't think of Detroit or Philadelphia as wild rural areas.

    36. Re:What a bunch of BS by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      I am not afraid of the city. I live in the middle of one of the ten largest cities in Europe. I am not afraid of "the wild" either, but given the choice I would feel more safe falling a sleep in a Savannah in the middle of Africa than on the streets of any major city. I would give myself better than 99.9% chance of getting out unharmed in both cases, but in the city only just so.

    37. Re:What a bunch of BS by ClockwerkMao · · Score: 1

      In modern North America with its significantly reduced wolf population, sure; but wolves have been preying on humans for a long time [wikipedia.org].

    38. Re:What a bunch of BS by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      The fact that we've existed in our present form for basically 200,000 years is evidence in and of itself that we were never defenseless, regardless of how slow or weak we are relative to other species. We may not have had fancy spears or arrows, but clearly those were not necessary for survival.

      There's a reason animal attacks make the news: They're very, very rare. There's basically only 2 times that animals attack people, which are when they're defending their young (because they know humans are a threat), or when they mistake us for something else (surfers & seals). This isn't a coincidence. The animals that attacked people are pretty much dead now, and we live with the ancestors of the ones who were fearful. It wasn't just civilization that accomplished this; it was the 10s of thousands of years before that, when some stupid tiger wandered into a camp looking for a meal and got clubbed in the fucking face shortly before it was turned into clothes and a cool necklace. Unless you're one of those idiots who tries to live in the middle of a grizzly bear den, or you stumble into one accidentally, you can go pretty much anywhere you want without worrying about something trying to eat you.

    39. Re:What a bunch of BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Come on, the rats aren't that bad...

    40. Re:What a bunch of BS by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Second, I would bet the author has never actually been in a truly wild setting, where there are animals around that might hunt you

      Crikey!

  10. Advertising Blitz by permaculture · · Score: 1

    If only advertising could be better targetted. There are garish billboards everywhere, many of which don't apply to lots of the folks who see them.

    Advertising directed only at the folk who actually might use the product or service, would give us all back some minutes/hours every day.

    --
    Environmentalism is the new Victorianism. Everyone ties on a green corset and pretends we're virtuous.
    1. Re:Advertising Blitz by innerweb · · Score: 1

      I believe the movie Minority Report kind of hits on that idea. There are other sci fi movies that do so, both better and worse, but the idea has been there for a long time.

      We are actually headed in that direction. As we become more of a police type state through monitoring people and tracking individual's movements, locations, etc. we also provide highly valuable commercial data for advertisers and other to target individuals. Some people like this, as they see the constant *big brother* presence as comforting and secure, while others see it as intrusive and threatening.

      So, targeted advertising will probably not work the way many if not most people are comfortable with, as it requires the ability to know very personal information about a person. Unless they can come up with a way to know who you are and what your likes and dislikes are without knowing who you are (??), I doubt it is going to happen soon.

      Just having an idea about how abusive those in power are with that power, I would be terrified of living in a society with those capabilities. You don't have to do anything wrong to become a pawn in someone else's power game.

      InnerWeb

      --
      Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
    2. Re:Advertising Blitz by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      As always, there are trade-offs. It would be nice if those ad-monkeys realized that I'm never going to buy female hygine products, and that I probably won't be buying a new car for awhile. But, I probably don't want the pastor of my church to see my FF bookmarks.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    3. Re:Advertising Blitz by innerweb · · Score: 1

      But, I probably don't want the pastor of my church to see my FF bookmarks.

      LMAO!!! Thanks for a great laugh!!

      InnerWeb

      --
      Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
  11. Pfft by Xaemyl · · Score: 0

    Not to be inflammatory, but what a crock of shit.

    For fucks sake, we just cant win, can we? Citys are bad! The Wilderness is bad! Global Warming! Global Cooling! Magnetic reversal of the poles! Cellphones that lead to brain cancer!

    Chill out, people.

  12. consumerism by nairolF · · Score: 1

    I can imagine that shopkeepers might oppose parks on the grounds that urbanly stressed people are more likely to buy stuff they don't need.

    --
    "...Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
    1. Re:consumerism by Koiu+Lpoi · · Score: 1

      This whole idea is nothing new. I recommend anyone interested in this track down a copy of Georg Simmel's, "The Metropolis and Mental Life". Let's just say that, in 1950, he was saying pretty much all of this.

  13. Central Park by YourExperiment · · Score: 4, Funny

    'It's not an accident that Central Park is in the middle of Manhattan,' says Berman.

    For real? I thought they'd just forgotten to build shit there.

  14. How many people did they test this on? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Different age groups?
    Different backgrounds?
    Different mental states? (as in, people will certain mental "illnesses")

    I sure don't feel any thicker just by being in cities and towns.
    In fact, i have a pretty damn high awareness of my surroundings.
    They should give me a call up and test me, i will blow their minds.
    Just as long as they are willing to pay my plane over.

  15. Creativity versus attention span by aepervius · · Score: 1

    As far as i can tell it was a ncie enough compromise to lead us to where we are, and maybe even further beyond. I leave the attention span and nature life to my short lived ancestor.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  16. Re:Brain Underload - Brain Overload by andyh3930 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I must be even worse the pilots. Especially doing a Trans-Ocean flight, Say LHR to JFK each end completely manic, multiple commands from ATC, lots of other aircraft to watch out for, reconfiguration of the aircraft but in the Middle Several hours of not a lot.
    That's one job I'd hate to do.

  17. True! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Its true! Since i moved from Ironforge to the gardens of Dalaran i gained +20 int!

  18. Anecdote about 5th Av. by Mathinker · · Score: 2, Funny

    > be it by crossing 5th avenue at the wrong moment

    When I was a lot younger (and spacier), after about a year and a half of living in Manhattan, I was walking on 51st St. and suddenly a ladybug landed on my hand. I was so surprised and thrilled at that (being the opposite of a real "city boy") that I crossed 5th Av. against the light (or mostly against the light) and only a few minutes after understood what I had done.

    1. Re:Anecdote about 5th Av. by Muad'Dave · · Score: 5, Funny

      I was walking on 51st St. and suddenly a ladybug landed on my hand.

      On 51st St, it might've been a gentleman bug dressed as a ladybug. Sometimes it's hard to tell.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  19. Well, no... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You seem kind of bitter about it. New York has some things going for it--if it didn't, it wouldn't be such a huge place economically and culturally.

    The public transportation is pretty good, except that they haven't put in new subway lines since the private sector got less involved. But the subway is 24-hour, which is pretty great, and it basically never shuts down for maintenance. That doesn't mean it's always safe, but it's nice. (At 3 in the morning, there are places you don't want to go.)

    The pizza's good because the water's right for it--you can't make good pizza with the wrong kind of water. I don't know why, it just works out that way. If you are also lucky enough to know a place with a good chef, you're in heaven.

    Other cities have virtues, too--e.g. Seattle with its Coffee and Imperial Walkers. And I've heard they have a troll under a bridge, which is wonderful!

    1. Re:Well, no... by Guido+del+Confuso · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thanks for proving my point. There are things to like about New York. New Yorkers are not one of them. Ex-New Yorkers even less so.

      The only thing I'm less interested in than how awesome New York is would be hearing people talk about how awesome New York is.

    2. Re:Well, no... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 3, Insightful

      New York has some things going for it--if it didn't, it wouldn't be such a huge place economically and culturally.

      You seem to have spent the last year in a coma. Let me bring you up to date. Financial market crashed. Banks bailed out. Wall Street decimated.

      the subway is 24-hour, which is pretty great, and it basically never shuts down for maintenance.

      It's also noisy. Maybe they should do some maintenance, and switch over to a rubber-tired system.

      The pizza's good because the water's right for it

      Must be all those pollutants in the river. Maybe they've permanently altered your taste buds.

      Seriously, the air absolutely stinks and the streets are filthy. About the only thing going for it is it ISN'T New Jersey.

    3. Re:Well, no... by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Informative

      Must be all those pollutants in the river.

      I realize your probably just trolling but you do know that NYC doesn't get it's water from the Hudson right? They get it from Upstate. It's one of the things I love to remind them about when they start bitching about how much money the city pays out in State taxes. "You can have your money back when you can secure your own water supply and stop sending us your felons"

      About the only thing going for it is it ISN'T New Jersey.

      Well, there is that ;)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:Well, no... by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 0

      New York has some things going for it

      And a hell of a lot going against it.

      It's probably a better place to live than Pyongyang or Harare, and possibly nicer than a few other squalid third world cities. Compared to almost any other city in Europe or North America, New York is an appalling hell-hole, unfit for human habitation. (Yes, it has been my misfortune to be there numerous times over the past 30 years).

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    5. Re:Well, no... by emilng · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can't just generalize about a city of millions. Try replacing New Yorker with a person from any country and listen to how offensive you sound.

      I was born in NYC and am still living there currently. I also get really annoyed with the all the people who think New York is the greatest thing ever too, but you don't find me bashing it every chance I get on Slashdot. The amount of disdain you have for New Yorkers borders on the amount of homophobia you would find from a closeted homosexual. I'm not saying you're a closet New Yorker, but that's just what it comes off as... just saying...

    6. Re:Well, no... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Sounds like someone had a bad experience as a tourist.

      Must be all those pollutants in the river. Maybe they've permanently altered your taste buds.

      NYC's water supply comes from reservoirs in the Catskills. A recent (May 2008) study concluded that tap water in NYC is some of the cleanest tap water you can find in the entire world: http://www.uswaternews.com/archives/arcquality/8newxyork5.html

      It's also noisy. Maybe they should do some maintenance, and switch over to a rubber-tired system.

      It gets cold in New York. Many trains (Q, R, N, 4, 5, A, C...) operate above ground once they get into the Bronx or further into Brooklyn or Queens. Rubber tires are almost completely useless in snowy and/or icy conditions. It just won't work. It's noisy, sure, but how noisy is an average busy street? In addition, the newer cars (R142s, R142As) are much quieter than the old ones due to better insulation.

      Seriously, the air absolutely stinks and the streets are filthy.

      I will give you the dirty streets bit - SOMETIMES - but for the air, well buddy, if you spent most of your time among the rest of the tourists then yes, you'd have been surrounded by exhaust. Try heading to someplace BESIDES midtown Manhattan (like, say, Prospect Park in Brooklyn, or Governor's Island, or the Cloisters in Manhattan) and then tell me the air stinks.

    7. Re:Well, no... by Beyond_GoodandEvil · · Score: 3, Funny

      The amount of disdain you have for New Yorkers borders on the amount of homophobia you would find from a closeted homosexual. I'm not saying you're a closet New Yorker, but that's just what it comes off as... just saying...
      Gee, psychoanalyze much? Typical New Yorker.

      --
      I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
    8. Re:Well, no... by xaxa · · Score: 1

      the subway is 24-hour, which is pretty great, and it basically never shuts down for maintenance.

      It's also noisy. Maybe they should do some maintenance, and switch over to a rubber-tired system.

      To my amazement, I used a previously-very-noisy subway line in London a couple of days after it had been shut for Christmas (the UK is closed on the 25th and 26th). It was normal rails and steel wheels, but they must have smoothed out all the bumps as it was almost silent. The people travelling with me all agreed that it was incredibly quiet for a subway train. Proves it's possible anyway, I'm hoping it lasts...

      (Rubber-tired systems are less efficient, so there's more heat in the tunnels and more energy used. I don't know how quiet they are, it's a while since I was in Paris and I wasn't paying attention.)

    9. Re:Well, no... by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Actually you can generalize about a city of millions. Because if you compare those millions, as a whole, as an average, with another city of millions, says, Mexico City, you'll find discrepancies. It's this thing called culture, it influences people in lots of ways, and in return these people influence their culture back. It's nothing like racism or xenophobia as you seem to try to make it sound.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    10. Re:Well, no... by Richy_T · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I met up with my friend from the UK in NY this summer. He's lived many places in the UK including London and said he wouldn't mind living there for a year. A lot of it is what your expectations are. Personally, I prefer a bit more green myself. I certainly could get along there though.

      About the only negative experience was that the hotdogs suck. I don't know why the NYers carp on about them so much.

    11. Re:Well, no... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WHAAA! Grow skin or better yet, that thick skin your suppose to get from living in NYC all your life. New
      York sucks and the people there suck and by people I mean all races, creeds, and sexual orientations.

    12. Re:Well, no... by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 4, Informative

      "It's also noisy. Maybe they should do some maintenance, and switch over to a rubber-tired system."

      That would be difficult, since the NYC subways use the rails for grounding. The main reason the subways in NYC are so noisy is the speed that the trains operate at, which is typically 10-20MPH faster than other subway systems in America (which is why similarly old systems, like the Boston subways, are so much quieter). There is an effort with the newest subway trains to reduce noise, but that is mainly aimed at the passengers riding the train, not those standing on the platforms.

      One of the things that the NYC subway system has going for it, that other systems do not really have, is the ability to operate 24x7x365 with few disruptions in service. There are several reasons for this, but the primary two are the distributed nature of the control system (which is unfortunately due to be centralized as part of a plan to install computers to replace the ancient equipment they use) and the large number of lines and tracks which make reroutes possible. It is possible to perform maintenance on the NYC subways, and in fact, this is done on nights and weekends, which is why there are route changes every weekend, with the exception of holidays.

      "Must be all those pollutants in the river. Maybe they've permanently altered your taste buds."

      NYC's water supply does not come from the rivers that surrounding Manhattan. The water in NYC comes from a large reservoir in the mountains in the middle of New York State, and is carried to the city using three enormous pipes. The tap water is actually among the cleanest in the US, and NYC is one of the few places where the majority of contaminants in tap water come from old pipes in the final stages of delivery, rather than the supply itself.

      "Seriously, the air absolutely stinks and the streets are filthy."

      This is not unique to NYC, it is the case in any large city. Large cities always have been and always will be more polluted than small cities and towns. When you have millions of people living in such a small area, it is difficult to keep the ground and air pristine.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    13. Re:Well, no... by MrCrassic · · Score: 1

      I can assure you that there are many people who are not as affectionate about "The City" as you may think. I personally hated it for a while because of the environment that promotes faux luxuries, mindless materialism and plenty of bad habits that feel good now, but do lots of hurt later. I'm a little less bitter about it now, but I would still move elsewhere if I had the chance.

      BTW, I probably don't need to tell you, but not everything is roses and daisies here. I live in Brooklyn, and there are still areas that public transportation completely ignores (think Red Hook, Flatlands, etc.) The MTA is also in a crazy amount of debt and are raising fares quite controversially. We just got new equipment, and a lot of the new features have several noticeable bugs in them (the mapping system in particular). We are supposed to be getting a new subway line by 2018, but that project has been in the works since 1925...

      Also, for every spectacular pizzeria, there are at least five or ten crappy ones in its vicinity. The pizza here is nothing to marvel about, most of the time. Whoever tells you that doesn't know pizza from a Big Mac.

    14. Re:Well, no... by MrCrassic · · Score: 1

      I didn't know that! No wonder the water tastes so good.

      New Jersey has a lot going for it. I never understood the jokes.

    15. Re:Well, no... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      I never understood the jokes.

      You would if you were a New Yorker ;) Well, from the city anyway. Here in Upstate we generally reserve our jokes for Pennsyltucky

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    16. Re:Well, no... by Have+Blue · · Score: 1

      There are several reasons for this, but the primary two are the distributed nature of the control system (which is unfortunately due to be centralized as part of a plan to install computers to replace the ancient equipment they use)

      On the other hand, there was that time a few years back when two major lines fell over because a bum started a fire in an equipment room. The current system is garbage and any upgrade would be a good thing.

    17. Re:Well, no... by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, those two lines were only shut down in a single area, and very briefly while new parts were installed. The rest of the system was operational, and there were no stations where service was shut down -- the stations in the area where those lines were shut down were being serviced by other subway lines. The system was robust enough to allow for a very quick reroute of trains from West 4 street (three stations north of the fire) to Jay street (two stations south of the fire). Not only that, but the relay room that was destroyed by the fire controlled only two of the four tracks to that station (Chambers St./World Trade Center), and the other two tracks, which were used for relaying the third line that services that station (and terminates there) remained operational because they were controlled by another relay room.

      Around the same period, the MTA attempted to bring the first phase of the new, computerized central control system online; this was the radio coordination system, which is currently running equipment that was installed in the 1960s. The computerized system crashed when three simultaneous emergency calls were made -- a typical situation in a system with more than 400 stations and a hundred or so trains in operation at any given time -- and communication in the entire system was shut down while they reactivated the old system. Imagine, in a few years, if a fire occurs in the control center -- the entire system would be out of order until the older control rooms were unlocked and reactivated. As a case in point, there was a fire in a control room in the 1980s, much more serious than a relay room like the one at Chambers St., and a service along one of the subway lines was shut down until control could be transferred to other locations (this was a complex move at that time). No other lines were affected by the fire, because the other control rooms operated completely independently, from an electronic perspective (they are coordinated by phone).

      People just assume that technology from the 1920-30s, which runs the majority of the system, must in inadequate and that upgrading it will make the transit system better. Experience shows that this is simply not true. The 1930s vacuum tube relay equipment, which is controlled with electromechanical lever machines, is remarkably reliable, and gets the job done just fine. The only real deficiency is that there is no electronic method for tracking multiple lines on a single segment of track, but this is made up for through a system of buttons installed at major station stops, which allow train operators to indicate their route to a control room when it is necessary to do so (as it is at points where lines are separated and sent down different tracks). In some cases, even that is overkill, because the control room sits at the exact point where trains stop. Computerization offers little advantage beyond more accurate accounting and schedule measurements.

      I am not against the idea of more modern equipment. It is certainly the case that a computer could calculate the placement of trains in maintenance yards more efficiently than a human can, or even the placement of trains on relay tracks at locations where several lines are terminated. The current plan, however, is deeply flawed in that it seeks to centralize everything and leave the old system locked up for emergencies. Central command systems might work well on smaller systems like Chicago or Boston, but given the enormous size of the NYC transit system, it seems severely misguided; no surprise, though, since the MTA has not made many good decisions over the past few years.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    18. Re:Well, no... by Omestes · · Score: 1

      I'd rather live in NYC than LA.

      Not that that is saying much.

      Though I've started to notice the same annoying "Pride" thing from immigrants from LA, as from NYC. I even have a couple friends (or rather friends of a friend's sister) who got an LA tattoo, just so they know where they live.

      I just find it annoying how New Yorkers think they they are really that relevant. I also find it annoying how New York is always shoved down the rest of the countries throat, as if anyone of us actually cared. I'm also miffed about how every television show is based there, meaning that none of it is really that applicable to people living in normal cities. I rather miss when everything was based in Milwaukee.

      How many people are actively proud of living in Phoenix, or Cleveland?

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    19. Re:Well, no... by fifedrum · · Score: 1

      hot dogs are like text editors

      everyone has their favorite and will fight to the death to defend their opinion of which is best

    20. Re:Well, no... by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't it take more maintenance and unexpected downtimes with rubber tires instead of rail?

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    21. Re:Well, no... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Protip: Try going to Newark sometime. Don't cheat and take NJ railroads - Drive down there, from New York City or Long Island or upstate, and witness how the normally-logical highway system turns into spaghetti code in highway form. There's one point where you have to take a turn on an elevated onramp to another elevated onramp with no warning - which, in the night, involves making a very sudden turn to the left on a very high up onramp. At night.

    22. Re:Well, no... by MrCrassic · · Score: 1

      Very true.

    23. Re:Well, no... by Darby · · Score: 1


      Also, for every spectacular pizzeria, there are at least five or ten crappy ones in its vicinity. The pizza here is nothing to marvel about, most of the time. Whoever tells you that doesn't know pizza from a Big Mac.

      Ain't that the truth. You have to come here to Chicago if you want real pizza.

      Don't even get me started on how pathetic your government has gotten at corruption either....slackers ;-)

    24. Re:Well, no... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read his other post where he bashes Texas and the south. The guys just a bigoted jerk and not worth any time.

    25. Re:Well, no... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, this typical New York says "Fuck You".

    26. Re:Well, no... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 1

      "(Rubber-tired systems are less efficient, so there's more heat in the tunnels and more energy used. I don't know how quiet they are, it's a while since I was in Paris and I wasn't paying attention.)"

      You can talk to the person next to you without raising your voice.

    27. Re:Well, no... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 1

      Planned maintenance. You know the lifespan of the tires, and plan accordingly. It's not like you're going to bust a tire by hitting a pothole, or running over a nail, in the subway system, or that you don't have other maintenance to do on the cars on a regular basis, like cleaning them out, inspections, etc.

    28. Re:Well, no... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      At 3 in the morning, there are places you don't want to go.

      Like back home to your wife...

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    29. Re:Well, no... by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Oh, makes sense hehe.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    30. Re:Well, no... by xaxa · · Score: 1

      You can talk to the person next to you without raising your voice.

      I'll have to get back to you on that one.

      The newer lines (e.g. Jubilee Line, completed late 1990s) are much, much quieter than the older ones, and I think a conversation would be reasonable without raising your voice. Possibly they welded the rails. They're playing catch-up with maintenance on the other lines at the moment, most are generally noiser (in tunnels, anyway).

    31. Re:Well, no... by mrcharliebrown · · Score: 1

      Take a poll and I think many would agree with the parent comment: New Yorkers are awfully provincial people. I would agree with you though that they are not the only folks like that in the world.

  20. This is just nature-is-better-than-tech garbage by evil_arrival_of_good · · Score: 4, Informative

    According to my MIT Encyclopedia of Cognitive Science: Cities function as a cognitive artifact. Cognitive artifacts are external physical things that aid cognition.

    Humans are not all the same, and what most humans were 10,000 years ago has little to do with our default abilities and preferences today. There is not even a linear progression, various climate and cultural filters have output humans with vastly different ideal environments.

    The nature-would-do-us-best thesis is a feelgood mythology for people ill suited for the present technological norms most humans practice.

    On a personal note have lived in Seattle, Akutan AK (island in Bering Sea), Kanab UT, and Antarctica. My mind did fine in all four places.

    1. Re:This is just nature-is-better-than-tech garbage by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Humans are not all the same, and what most humans were 10,000 years ago has little to do with our default abilities and preferences today. There is not even a linear progression, various climate and cultural filters have output humans with vastly different ideal environments.

      There's really not that much difference between the city and the jungle. I watch out for cars, muggers, and mall bargins. My great-great-great grandpa watched for bears, wolves, and nice fresh fruit to eat.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    2. Re:This is just nature-is-better-than-tech garbage by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      I watch out for cars, muggers, and mall bargins. My great-great-great grandpa watched for bears, wolves, and nice fresh fruit to eat.

      What about a pointed stick?

    3. Re:This is just nature-is-better-than-tech garbage by Thaelon · · Score: 2, Informative

      what most humans were 10,000 years ago has little to do with our default abilities and preferences today.

      Tell that to my desire to mate with as many attractive females as possible.

      Or my preference to be warm in cold climates

      Or my preference to be cool in hot climates.

      Or my preference to consume both plant and animal matter.

      Or my preference to often associate with other humans.

      Or my ability to become enraged when my desires are frustrated or when I'm attacked either emotionally or physically.

      Or my ability to feel compelled to take care of cute things - especially humans, most especially ones that look like me.

      Or my ability to protect, and preference to, defend weaker family members.

      A great deal of the things we feel, experience, and are capable of today have been with us for hundreds, if not thousands of generations. They're probably just not impinging on your awareness because they're so ingrained and ubiquitous.

      --

      Question everything

    4. Re:This is just nature-is-better-than-tech garbage by perp · · Score: 2, Informative

      The nature-would-do-us-best thesis is a feelgood mythology for people ill suited for the present technological norms most humans practice.

      It is only in 2007 that the world became more urban than rural, up until then "most" humans lived in a rural environment.

      --
      There are two kinds of sysadmins: paranoids and losers. I'm both kinds.
    5. Re:This is just nature-is-better-than-tech garbage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mutant!

  21. OS analogy by theheadlessrabbit · · Score: 5, Insightful

    being raised in a rural town, i suspect that I notice this effect much more strongly than urbanites. when i'm in the city, everything is fighting for my attention simultaneously, so i just tune everything out.

    I wonder if something similar occurs when using a multitasking operating system.

    in the old days, a personal computer would be set to do one thing and one thing only at any one time. now i have music running in the background, along with gimp and pidgin, while i try to post on Slashdot. I'm so distracted, this post took me nearly 45 minutes to type up, and i can almost guarantee I wont get a +5 insightful.

    --
    -I only code in BASIC.-
    1. Re:OS analogy by rustalot42684 · · Score: 1

      i can almost guarantee I wont get a +5 insightful.

      Somehow I don't think that's because you use a multitasking operating system...

    2. Re:OS analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i can almost guarantee I wont get a +5 insightful.

      Somehow I don't think that's because you use a multitasking operating system...

      True, he should've said something which excludes alternatives better. Something like "I use an operating system which has a flightless bird from the southern hemisphere as its mascot" so that the mods would know what to do.

    3. Re:OS analogy by Angst+Badger · · Score: 1

      being raised in a rural town, i suspect that I notice this effect much more strongly than urbanites. when i'm in the city, everything is fighting for my attention simultaneously, so i just tune everything out.

      I've spent substantial periods of my life living in dense urban areas, suburban sprawl, and rural areas. There's something to be said both for and against all of them. Personally, I tend to prefer small towns, provided that I'm not more than an hour or so away from both a city and genuine wilderness. Of course, at least part of that is because I'm an introvert and more than slightly misanthropic. I can only imagine how miserable an extrovert who actually likes people would be living my life.

      The point is that people are pretty diverse in their temperaments, and also pretty adaptable. An environment that is perfectly healthy for me might be very unhealthy for you, and vice versa. There is no "best" place for "people" to be. There can be a best place for a particular individual to be, but that's going to differ from individual to individual, and often even for the same individual at different times in his or her life.

      About the only thing that is consistent about human beings is their insistence that humans are (or should be) consistent despite all evidence to the contrary.

      --
      Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
    4. Re:OS analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      FINALLY. After reading the comments all the way down (just about to rtfa) somebody, namely theheadlessrabbit, finally said something that addresses something important.

      Cities are _designed_ to pull your attention in a thousand ways. Capitalism causes that. If you pay attention to someone or something you're more likely to give that someone or something money, so cities, which are far more money-centric than less population dense areas, will always be more attention hungry than everything else. Even the wildest jungle (to follow the hyperbole). We spend billions on marketing (the art of getting and keeping people's attention), so naturally we're going to be good at it.

      The jungle, on the other hand, doesn't give two shits what you pay attention to. Sure there's lots to choose from, but the choice is yours. And you get to focus on whatever you want for as long as you want (ie no commercial interruptions in every sense of the phrase).

      Of course, the jungle hyperbole was just a /. invention, but I'll leave it to you to realize this applies even better in safer natural environments.

      And since brains tend to get better at things they do often (no I'm not going to cite anything for this, but go ahead and find me someone who disagrees), you'd expect that in places where you get to choose and focus your attention people will be better at paying attention to things they care about than people in places where their attention is going like a speed-freaked superball. To say it more concisely, OF COURSE forcing people to hyperactively shift their attention will teach them to be ADHD. DUH.

      Think about academia. Lots of good, focused, thinking goes on at colleges all over the world. Now think about the types of schools that generally produce the major thinkers within the group of thinkers. What is their layout like? I'll tell you that I've never seen a picture of a campus with a 3lane each way road, nor of a 10+ story building, nor a subway system...

    5. Re:OS analogy by OolimPhon · · Score: 1

      "I use an operating system which has a flightless bird from the southern hemisphere as its mascot"

      A Kiwi? An Emu? An Ostrich?

    6. Re:OS analogy by elloGov · · Score: 0

      ... and i can almost guarantee I wont get a +5 insightful.

      Did the city teach you to use reverse psychology?

    7. Re:OS analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you look around you'll find a bunch of window managers and projects by/for people who prefer a less convoluted environment. Try the ratpoison window manager for starters... it only lets you look at one app at a time (well you can actually split the display into frames but that's not the default setup).
      Also, for music, try stuff without vocals. Pure instrumental tracts are less distracting. Or just enjoy the silence and sounds of nature if you're lucky to live outside a large city. :-)

    8. Re:OS analogy by brendank310 · · Score: 1

      He must be using the new Macbook Wheel.

    9. Re:OS analogy by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Simple fix: Use apps full-screen.
      I noticed that whenever I have other windows visible, I tend to check them every now and then (especially the browser with Slashdot.) When I set the editor to full screen, I seem to be more productive.

  22. LEGALIZE IT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    no better way to get back to nature than to imbibe the herb (with a vaporizer, damn smoking laws)

  23. In the street? by MikeUW · · Score: 1

    The last times I remember doing any work of significance, requiring intensive thought, I was either in my home or at my office. Seriously...I we'll be okay if the best innovations don't all take place on a street corner at a busy intersection.

    OTOH - what these guys should really be examining is the impact that reading /. has on our brains. Ouch!

  24. city vs country by timmarhy · · Score: 2, Insightful
    i'd buy this actually, having been raised in a rural area and now living in a city i can say that city people are far more scatter brained than country people. while city people try to bag country people as being slow, really it's they are actually thinking before opening their mouths.

    on an inter personal level as well i've found most city born and breed types are emotional train wrecks.

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
  25. Do we still need the downtown? by wikinerd · · Score: 1

    Nice study that confirms what we all knew: that the downtown is the worst place to live and full of smog. Downtowns developed for safety and economic reasons, but now we have the Internet, so I expect people to start abandoning the downtown to live in suburbs and the countryside close to nature, communicating and working through the Internet (as I do). We really don't need a smog-infected and crime-prone downtown anymore.

    1. Re:Do we still need the downtown? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You should be aware that the trend of moving out of inner cities has been reversed in USA as well as in Europe under the last couple of years.

      As it stands you prophecy is completely wrong. The internet has done nothing to promote the trends you are predicting.

    2. Re:Do we still need the downtown? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But not everybody hates downtown. I grew up in the suburbs of San Diego and have lived in some form of suburbia ever since, including when I was stationed overseas. Now, if I lived in a larger city with a real downtown (Tucson's just isn't big enough), I would prefer to live there, even if my job was elsewhere. I'm young, so downtown is the "hip" place to be, plus a lot of cities are doing major redevelopment work with high-rise condo buildings and such.

  26. Some My Favorite Cities by aquatone282 · · Score: 1

    In the order I got to know them:

    • Edinburgh
    • Seattle
    • San Francisco
    • Los Angeles
    • Hamburg
    • New York

    What do these have in common? They're port cities, where cultures have met and traded and fought and blended for centuries. You don't find the same vitality in inland cities such as Frankfurt or Salt Lake City, which I've always found to be, well, boring.

    I've never lived in a city for more than a few weeks, but I've always found the experience to be inspiring.

    --
    What?
    1. Re:Some My Favorite Cities by internerdj · · Score: 1

      Oddly the interesting things to do when you are in Salt Lake City are to leave the city and find something to do in contact with nature.

  27. Figures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's why all big cities tend to be Liberal enclaves. It's all those impaired brains!

  28. I don't think so by antifoidulus · · Score: 2, Funny

    I mean, I can post this from my cell phone while walking in the city...sorry what....was I talking.....gotta go, I see something shiny!

  29. Re:CowTax's opinion on this matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ouch.. that poor jar!

  30. Re:Brain Underload - Brain Overload by Muad'Dave · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At one point a proposal was floated that suggested that pilots be allowed/encouraged to play video games during those 'down times' so that they'd be more alert and ready to handle an emergency if one should pop up. I can't seem to find the link to the article. 8-(

    --
    Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  31. Where are my mod points when I need them by ImOnlySleeping · · Score: 1

    I believe you failed to read the articles. The benefit was increased interaction, the detriment was over-stimulation. Smog, crime, safety and economics were not mentioned at all and somehow, someone rated you up.

    --
    Everybody seems to think I'm lazy I don't mind, I think they're crazy
  32. Bad Example by jonadab · · Score: 1

    > 'It's not an accident that Central Park is in the middle of
    > Manhattan,' says Berman. 'They needed to put a park there.'"

    Maybe it's just me, but personally I would have considered Central Park to be an urban environment, not very much less crowded than a city street. It *certainly* doesn't qualify as a natural setting of any kind.

    --
    Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
  33. Mental Exercise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This seems similar to an argument that a person is more tired in a gym working out than if they were just walking down the street. Wouldn't the heightened distraction train you to focus more? Are "country folk" better at focusing and thinking? This is story seems to prove that people focus better because of the city when they are taken out of the distraction. Seems like people run faster when they are normally in the gym and then are put on the street............

  34. And this is why... by Rooked_One · · Score: 1

    ADD has evolved.

    Some might say its a disorder, but once you learn to cope with it, your "multi-tasking skills" go through the roof - or maybe i'm just a freak - i've been accused of both.

    wait... pineapple?

  35. Central Park wasn't central when it was built by westlake · · Score: 1
    'It's not an accident that Central Park is in the middle of Manhattan,' says Berman. 'They needed to put a park there.'

    .
    Central Park is the product of the same political compromises that put the county seat in Dogpatch as a close to dead-center on the map as it is physically possible.

    In 1855, the site was uptown rock and swamp, suburban, lightly inhabited, difficult to develop commercially.

    840 acres of [mostly] rustic, naturalistic, park, still looked to be a less expensive proposition than a densely populated public garden less than one-tenth its size - and - not incidentally - far more attractive to its future and very wealthy neighbors. CentralParkHistory.com

  36. A study Id like to read... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let me know when they do a study about the effects of how reading slashdot hurts your brain. Id like to hear that read.

    1. Re:A study Id like to read... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Let me know when they do a study about the effects of how reading slashdot hurts your brain

      I thought I had found such a study once upon a time but it was really just a horrible image of Natalie Portman covered in hot grits while holding open the place where the sun doesn't shine. My brain hurts a lot now.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:A study Id like to read... by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      My brain hurts a lot now.

      It will have to come out. All the bits of it. Nurse! Nurse! Nurse, take Mr Gumby to a brain surgeon.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  37. cities also make you myopic by Prodigy+Savant · · Score: 1

    According to this non peer-reviewed post cities also make you myopic

    --
    Dont make a better sig, you insensitive clod!
  38. OMG, how badly informed are they? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 0

    I know for 15 years, that the brain entered a transformation 50-60 years ago. There was a study that showed, that the brain of people after that time significantly differs from that of a person born earlier. The brain adjusted to the overstimulation of ads, and all that stuff happening, be creating a new ability: The ability to shut everything else out. That's the reason people can live with all the ads and lights around them. And that's the reason that people can throw trash on the streets and still be for environmental protection at the same time.

    Old people have huge problems with overstimulation not only because they're old, but also because of their old-style brain.

    This change happened very quickly for evolutionary scales. And I'm pretty sure it's not over. Give humanity 20-30 years, and our brains will have adapted fine. No need to worry.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    1. Re:OMG, how badly informed are they? by jezreel · · Score: 1

      Evolution doesn't work by changing yourself and passing on the changes to your children, but being happy with that mutation you gained (when you were just 1 cell) and thus manage to NOT get killed like everybody else before having children.

      Since ads don't kill people (well, yet) ....
      But maybe I've got an old-style brain aswell

      --
      0 001 11 1
    2. Re:OMG, how badly informed are they? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That wouldn't be evolution in the genes but changes in the environment that influence development. That's like the reason why we're taller, fatter and have bigger boobs than 70 years ago, that's because we have different diets. It's not evolution.

    3. Re:OMG, how badly informed are they? by Matje · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I know for 15 years, that the brain entered a transformation 50-60 years ago

      you seem to think there is some sort of global blueprint on which all brains are based, and this global blueprint was somehow altered 50-60 years ago.

      Just try and think about it for a second. That idea is complete bullocks.

    4. Re:OMG, how badly informed are they? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      This change happened very quickly for evolutionary scales. And I'm pretty sure it's not over. Give humanity 20-30 years, and our brains will have adapted fine. No need to worry.

      Yeah, because it almost certainly wasn't evolutionary. Humans brains, whether in a person born 100 years ago or 10 years ago, are amazingly flexible machines that can rewire themselves into new configurations, work around damage, and gain new abilities like the ability to block out flashy distractions. However this ability rapidly decreases as our brains age. So most likely the difference is just that people born before a certain point had brains too old and stuck in their ways to adjust, while younger people adapted.

      Evolution can happen in short timescales, but it generally takes a huge amount of pressure. With no obvious major die-offs due to the inability to ignore distractions, I doubt there was a shift in genetics responsible. But take say Australian snakes and imported poisonous toads, and in a very short time the snakes evolve heads too small to eat toads big enough to give a lethal dose of poison.

      Anyway, our brains are amazingly adaptable, and I'm sure that especially young people will further adapt in the next 20-30 years, but it's still the same ol' brain that we've been tugging around for a very long time, and it still has weaknesses. It is not infinitely adaptable, nor indefatigable, and still vulnerable to stress. I'm not too worried, but I'm also not completely assured that we won't push our brains too far.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    5. Re:OMG, how badly informed are they? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The other big change in human brains happened in 1967 or thereabouts. Well, actually a few years earlier than that. Quite a few brains got some significant reprogramming back then. And then some.

  39. Not everyone can filter the city out. by Cinnaman · · Score: 1

    Or worse for people with anxiety disorders, your brain gets overstimulated until it starts to "shut down", producing a zombie-like state, provided you don't have a panic attack before then and escape to somewhere less crowded.

    1. Re:Not everyone can filter the city out. by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      That explains all those people mumbling about brains.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  40. Duh by ElmoGonzo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I figured that out for myself about 25 years ago and opted to live in rural settings. I made the mistake of taking a job in a big city in 1999 and lasted a little more than 3 years. I get the same feeling in big box stores -- especially Wal-Mart. It creeps me out just to be in one of their stores.

    1. Re:Duh by SteeldrivingJon · · Score: 1

      I can sympathize with the big-box aggs, and also don't like being in crowded concerts, or parties. But I love cities.

      --
      September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
  41. When I arrive at our country home... by Wonderkid · · Score: 1

    ...not only is the air obviously clear and sweet, but it is significantly easier to read and absorb information, not to mention, be creative. Yes, one misses the 'buz' of the city, but then that is animal nature. I think as the world currently stands on edge ("End of days"?), it may be time to rethink our way of living.

    --

    O'WONDERWe're working on it.

    1. Re:When I arrive at our country home... by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      it may be time to rethink our way of living.

      Yes, what we really need to do is spread out! We need the ex-ex-ex-urban culture! Sure, it's far more expensive, energy intensive, and shitty for the environment, but I say fuck the planet, I want my quiet!

  42. Green Acres is the place for him by Macblaster · · Score: 1

    Having moved from small town (a suburb of Scranton, of all places) to progressively larger cities over the years, I know that my brain is vastly understimulated in suburban and rural areas.

  43. So many faces. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In my teenage years, I always had a problem remembering people's faces.

    It was so bad that I actually went to a psychologist to see if it was some mild form of autism. There was no conclusive diagnoses.

    Now, the interesting part is that I was living in London at the time, and commuting on the train every day through the city. I'd see thousands of new faces every day, each of which I had to recognize, then ignore. I'd never see any of them again.

    Since moving out to a smaller city and driving to work, my memory for new faces has dramatically improved, to the point where I no longer need to make a special effort to remember them. It just comes naturally.

    I have wondered to this day whether it was the stress of the city that lead to the failure in recognition, or whether being overloaded with so many new faces I had to immediately forget each day was too much for my poor little brain.

  44. Central Park isn't natural by evilandi · · Score: 1

    Central Park is a planned, man-made structure. It is no more natural than the skyscrapers that surround it.

    There are only three types of natural areas; deserts (including frozen deserts), forests and savannah/heath. Everything else is artificial.

    --
    Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
    1. Re:Central Park isn't natural by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are only three types of natural areas; deserts (including frozen deserts), forests and savannah/heath. Everything else is artificial.

      So, then, do you not believe in the existence of plains, jungles, swamps, marshes, mountains, oceans, beaches, downs...?

    2. Re:Central Park isn't natural by evilandi · · Score: 1

      Those are subsets of the three supersets.

      --
      Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
    3. Re:Central Park isn't natural by dkleinsc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think you left out roughly 70% of the Earth's surface there.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  45. cognitive effort by Rogue+Haggis+Landing · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This sort of controlled perception -- we are telling the mind what to pay attention to -- takes energy and effort. Natural settings don't require the same amount of cognitive effort.

    Anecdotally, I've noticed that the extra cognitive effort required to get by in cities can be useful. I grew up in a fairly small town (pop. ~8000) and now live in Chicago. My friends back home who haven't moved away have for the most part seemed to me to go a bit soft, meaning I feel in conversation that I think a lot faster than they do, even with people who I once considered smarter than me. I know that some of this is self-selection (the less ambitious are less likely to move and more likely to go soft, etc.), but a lot of it seems to be that I am more often challenged intellectually and don't have the opportunity to become spacey, and spaciness is the main difficulty I'm describing. I see it especially in grocery stores, where there are far more people wandering confusedly through the aisles and being baffled by the oatmeal than there are here.

    What I'm saying here is that I fully accept that an urban environment is more stressful than a rural or semi-rural one. I would just dispute the idea that that is always a bad thing. Sometimes stress can force you to stay on your toes.

  46. Re:Brain Underload - Brain Overload by AgentSmith · · Score: 3, Informative

    a proposal was floated that suggested that pilots be allowed/encouraged to play video games during those 'down times'

    Maybe a flight sim?

  47. Gosh you'll believe anything won't you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's stupid. Another academic with nothing better to do but fabricate crap science. And slashdot believes it hook line and sinker. Suckas!

  48. The park is not nature by zenyu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A city park is a contrived environment intended to promote feelings of well being and safety. In reality they increase crime on their margins and are the least safe places to be in a city at night. While they have their deleterious effects they are like processed food in another way, every element is there to serve a purpose. The landscape architect believed those elements would help the user relax and as a rule they do.

    A walk down a city street is like a walk in actual nature, you need to pay attention to your surroundings. Instead of being mortally wounded by a bear or a snake, you get plowed over by a feckless tourist. A small portion of your mind is at all times dedicated to the task. If you engage in some artificial mental test during or shortly after completing this task you will be a little distracted. Duh!

    It goes without saying that this study says nothing about the obvious benefits to the mind of living in a city. These are primarily due to your interaction with other people who share your interest or otherwise are part of your social sphere, but are also due to smaller effects such as better overall health (the pollution is balanced by more exercise than average and much better medical care).

  49. Conclusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, therefore ... people leave urban settings for natural ones ... to relax? What a concept! That's earth-shattering!

  50. Hardware vs software by mcgrew · · Score: 1

    I'm not going to RTFA because of something in the summary that jumped out at me:

    'The mind is a limited machine,' says psychologist Marc Berman. 'And we're beginning to understand the different ways that a city can exceed those limitations.'

    The mind is not a machine - the brain is. Saying "The mind is a limited machine" is like saying "MS Access is a limited machine". The brain is a limited machine, but the mind is not a machine at all.

    It's this kind of mental sloppiness that made me drop my psychology class in college (that and the professor siad since I'd spent 4 years in the military I had no need for it, and that there isn't a psychologist in the world that there isn't another calling him a gold studded liar).

    I wonder if and when the study of the mind reaches the level of hard sciences like physics or chemistry? Hell, they can't even explain consciousness and refuse to see the similarities between human brains and the brains of other animals. Thought and feeling are chemical processes. Hari Seldon, where are you?

    Another poster asked if they studied city folk or country folk, I'm wondering (maybe TFA said) what they call a "city"? Springfield is a small city of 110,000, Chicago is a big city of millions, and the two are nothing alike.

    1. Re:Hardware vs software by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Abstract state machines?

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    2. Re:Hardware vs software by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The brain is probably an abstract state machine, but its software still isn't a machine.

    3. Re:Hardware vs software by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Oh really? What about SED scripts, which are abstract state machines but are (usually) not implemented in hardware?

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    4. Re:Hardware vs software by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      You're telling me you have software that will run without hardware?

    5. Re:Hardware vs software by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      No, but software machines do exist. They run inside of a hardware machine. That's computing...

      --
      Palm trees and 8
  51. Doubt It by dcollins · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    There was a thread a few weeks ago about "stretching before exercise reduces muscle power". Oh noes! I feel like this article is very analagous.

    I'm a musician/mathematician, birthed-college in rural Maine, 10 years game engineer in Boston, moved to New York 3 years ago. I've never been more delighted about where I live, and my only regret is that I didn't move here years ago (largely due to family/friends saying terrible things about NYC, turns out that's all mythology). I'm far more rested than I was before -- I could ditch the car, not get stressed out driving every day, nap on the bus/train every day, and arrive at work refreshed and energetic. I have a regular (late) sleep cycle for the first time in my life.

    I feel far more intellectually stimulated and productive now than before. I'm also gotten enormously more efficient, and the city does challenge me to improve my productivity on that score. Like a lot of athletic/professional coaches will say, or the old article "How to Win a Nobel Prize", you've got to be challenged in order to improve. Surround yourself with a lot of people smarter/faster than yourself (in my case, the college where I teach and the music industry), and you will get better.

    I consider the "urban street" part of my life to be the mental exercise part. I consider the "rural holiday" part to be the rest-heal-the-muscles part. You need both. If you measure muscles immediately after exercising, you will look weak and fatigued, but it's an essential part of growing stronger. Same here.

    --
    We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  52. Well that explains ... by CDogberry · · Score: 0

    ... the whole red county / blue county thing.

  53. An Interesting Experience by MrCrassic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When I was working in my last co-op, I took one morning to do my work outside. I thought that working indoors all day made me really lethargic, and that changing scenery would fix that. Not only was I more productive, I could listen to my music in the open air of the courtyard and nobody would bother me! I had no cow-orkers to worry about, and full exposure to natural light and a beautiful campus.

    I wasn't allowed to do that again. It wasn't a coincidence that my favorite part of going to that job was riding my bike and taking a train for two and a half hours getting there (and the same amount of time coming back).

  54. I noticed by Sam36 · · Score: 0

    The city is where all the democrats live

  55. I'd rather be dumb and out of control! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So the point of the article is that, um... self control is bad, mkay? And so is concentrating.

    If it's difficult, it's obviously bad, and wrong.

    Maybe they should have focused on relaxed settings vs. hectic ones. It's already been proven that it's harder to concentrate in a noisy classroom... but unlike these geniuses, they didn't made the leap in logic that somehow the classroom itself was the problem.

  56. That's a psychiatric, not much more to it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You went bonkers. Any removal of what caused it (fear of: drivers, people, animals - you name the disorder) will obviously help your case. Normal people adapt. High-speed Darwin at work. So: Get out of the way! or go ahead, go bonkers!

  57. Thank Mayor Rudy by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

    New York City's mayors have a bad track record, especially over the past 30 years, but Giuliani did a decent job of reducing crime. When I was just a baby, Times Square was actually a dangerous place to be, 5th Avenue was full of seedy shops and illegal fronts; those are now considered to be safe places to be, even in the middle of the night. The subways are also very safe, especially since the institution of "off hours" waiting areas that are in plain view of the police and MTA personnel.

    "I don't deny that nature is important, and don't doubt that experiencing natural settings regularly is a contributor to mental health."

    Funny you should mention this, this TFA is way off with regards to central park. Central park was not originally in the middle of Manhattan, it was north of the developed part of Manhattan, and was put in place to preserve some part of the natural landscape of the region. Of course, it did not really preserve the natural landscape, since they started the construction of the park by razing the forest that was there and then creating meadows in its place, but it turned out to be a good idea. Ironically, there was some pressure against the park originally, by people who felt it robbed the city of prime real estate; ironic, because a park view vastly increases the value of apartments and condos, probably because people so desperately want to see green instead of gray.

    --
    Palm trees and 8
    1. Re:Thank Mayor Rudy by hey! · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, the region south of Central park was a lot more bucolic in 1860, when the park was created. When the park land was taken, it was home to 1600 inhabitants, or around 1200 people per square mile. This was urban by the standards of the day, but comparable to the development density of a high income suburb by todays standards.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  58. Cities Murder People by b4upoo · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I have ranted for years about cities destroying both people and nations. The first evil is that cities actually send out a message that the rural person is inferior by offering higher wages than tiny towns and villages. The next problem is that education is excessively valued in cities. Sadly, education in itself causes the brain to shift functions away from areas that are vital. We have all seen college and even high school students get goofy when they are forced to study too much. The other side of the coin is that as children are born in cities many can not comply with the regime needed to attain higher levels of education and become the dreaded and violent, chronically unemployed.
              Further cities are like a cancer as they physically spread out oozing all kinds of toxins into the more rural environments. Rural environments never ruin cities but cities always destroy rural areas.
              Much of this falls squarely upon capitalism as in the beginning businesses deliberately attract throngs of labor and then as the businesses decline they abandon the very people that they have imported into the cities. And like a disease cities have helped spawn such a huge population that we have no way to get rid of the curse that we call cities.

    1. Re: Cities Murder People by StreetStealth · · Score: 2, Funny

      Sadly, education in itself causes the brain to shift functions away from areas that are vital.

      Fortunately, some of your vital areas have been saved from too much scientific education?

      --
      Your mind is clear / The things that you fear / Will fade with how much you / Believe what you hear
    2. Re: Cities Murder People by metlin · · Score: 1

      The first evil is that cities actually send out a message that the rural person is inferior by offering higher wages than tiny towns and villages.

      That's simply not true.

      There are more opportunities in cities simply because anything that creates lots of jobs attracts more people, thereby creating an urban environment. It's cause and effect. Secondly, cities pay more because of two reasons - competition and cost of living. A decent studio in Manhattan costs at least 5 times that of a good 2 bedroom house in rural Oklahoma. Supply and demand. Just because a person in Manhattan gets paid more does not mean jack, because the cost of living is also much, much higher.

      The next problem is that education is excessively valued in cities. Sadly, education in itself causes the brain to shift functions away from areas that are vital.

      What utter crap. And how the hell do you define vital? If anything, I would argue that cities provide more opportunities. More opportunities to intern at a good place, more educational options, more museums, more programs, better facilities, better teachers etc.

      My cousin is in NYC, and his wife holds a PhD in engineering. Of course, she's a stay at home mom, and she helps the kids in her apartment complex with school projects and things. I've another friend who studied math at MIT and now teaches high school kids in Boston. The probability of you finding a well educated, talented teacher in a rural area is extremely low. My girlfriend's family is from rural Oklahoma, and I've met some of her nephews' teachers. They are a joke. I knew more in high-school than they do now.

      Hell, there isn't even a half decent library in most rural areas. Take a walk down Cambridge, Mass. There are probably more books owned by individuals there than in all the rural areas of Kansas (bibles not included).

      We have all seen college and even high school students get goofy when they are forced to study too much.

      Some people cannot cope with stress. Period. And some people enjoy learning enough that they can keep going. It's got nothing to do with cities. It's a personal thing.

      The other side of the coin is that as children are born in cities many can not comply with the regime needed to attain higher levels of education and become the dreaded and violent, chronically unemployed.

      Eh? Do you have any statistics or are you simply spewing this crap off your ass?

      Further cities are like a cancer as they physically spread out oozing all kinds of toxins into the more rural environments. Rural environments never ruin cities but cities always destroy rural areas.

      Cities are dense entities with lots of people. Do the math for number of people and you'll find it about the same.

      Secondly, you are ignoring the conveniences of a modern city. Everything is easily accessible, quickly available and you expend less resources to get what you need (as opposed to rural areas with fewer options and more expensive for those limited options).

      For example, I'm a strict vegetarian, and every time I travel to a rural area, it is hard for me to find good, organic vegetarian options. I go to a restaurant, and I literally have no options. Fresh fruit juice? Spices? Ditto. I either have to cook my own food, or eat what's available (which isn't much to begin with).

      I don't even have to get out of the building I'm in, and I can find good vegetarian options - Italian, Chinese, Thai, Mexican, Indian etc. And there are at least 5 juice shops within a 2 block radius that give me good, fresh juice. Coffee? Beer? Same.

      If you did the math for the conveniences and population, the damage caused by cities and rural areas come to about the same.

      Much of this falls squarely upon capitalism as in the beginning businesses deliberately attract throngs of labor and then

  59. It makes more sense now... by cayenne8 · · Score: 0, Troll
    According to the article: "an urban environment impairs our basic mental processes"

    And the most heavily urban centers, like NY and such....are predominately Democratic and went for Obama....

    Nah...I can't go there, just kidding. But it does explain some strange general behaviors and differences between people I meet from heavily urban cities and those from more surburban and rural areas.

    :)

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    1. Re:It makes more sense now... by Mr.+Firewall · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Yes, this does explain why city people are so stupid -- something that those of us from Rural America have been aware of for a long time....

      --
      In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
  60. This dovetails quite nicely... by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    Correlate this with presidential voting results maps broken down by county. Urban counties generally voted Democrat whereas rural counties voted Republican.

    1. Re:This dovetails quite nicely... by Vegeta99 · · Score: 1

      Where do you live?

      I'm in a firmly red county. Everyone here has a few values which they vote on:

      1. Them damn dems gonna take my guns!
      2. Them damn dems gonna take away my huntin' grounds!
      3. Them damn dems gonna give my money to them po' people!
      4. Them damn dems kill babies! They would have killed the baby Jesus!

      Good luck arguing with that. Number 2 and 3 are absolutely false, the conservatives are the ones who keep opening PA gameland to foresters, and well, many many rural people take assistance money (LIHEAP especially!)

    2. Re:This dovetails quite nicely... by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

      Actually I live in Arizona and not Phoenix or Tucson. Regardless, I wasn't attempting to correlate what people vote on with their geographic location. Rather that if it's true that city life hurts your brain, the relationship between that and voting results (and not just of this most recent election but of a whole lot of recent elections) is interesting and warrants further study. And, FYI, I grew up in what was conservative farm country just outside of New York City, went to college and grad school in Boston, and ran a business in Los Angeles so it's safe to say I have a wide range of geographic experience.

  61. Interesting! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Hey cayenne8, why don't you come down here and lick my balls. Come on. Kneel and lick them. You know you want to. After all, you are a worthless sack of rubbish not even deserving to eat Obama's fecal matter that he leaves excreted in the toilet and which you save in your refrigerator.
     
     
    NICE TRY TO BUMP UP YOUR KARMA.
    Quit replying to trolls at the top of the page. We know that moderators waste their points on the first few posts, but this is ridiculous.

  62. Explains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Explains the high concentration of democrats in urban environments.

  63. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  64. Living in big cities... by MaWeiTao · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can see the argument. But when I was living in a big city in Asia I felt more stimulated and motivated than I've ever felt anywhere else. I felt like there was always something going on, something to take a part in, something new to see, something to absorb.

    Now I'm back in the US, back in the suburbs, and in some ways it feels like a wasteland of blandness. I live in an area where the homes are all very close together, but there just isn't much life to be found. It's all hidden away indoors.

    I recall getting back and over the first few weeks feeling this sense of emptiness, similar to hearing silence. I can see where too much stimulus might be a problem, but to me it isn't much different than being bombarded by crap on TV, but I think television is worse.

    The problem I see with big cities is the impersonal nature of life there, how a person can feel isolated even in the midst of millions of people. That leads to all sorts of problems. But with culture today it seems to be a problem everywhere but small towns.

    To be honest, if I had the opportunity to move back I would.

  65. Hahaha...you are a troll! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The mods took the point and modded you down. Better luck next time, you pompous moron.

    1. Re:Hahaha...you are a troll! by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "The mods took the point and modded you down. Better luck next time, you pompous moron."

      Lighten up Francis....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  66. And in a REAL natural environment... by Shados · · Score: 1

    In a real natural environment, you have to worrie about where your next meal is going to come from, and if you're going to get killed by a bear while trying to get it...So I doubt its much better.

    So really, they're saying the human mind cannot take the real world. It cannot deal with a natural habitat, it cannot deal with a city...it can only deal with something artificially in between, or in rural areas. Oh yeah, thats slick...

  67. actually somewhat true by Trepidity · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A disproportionate number of top universities, relative to population, are in rural areas and small towns: Ithaca, New York; Urbana-Champaign, Illinois; Hanover, New Hampshire; Durham, North Carolina; Terre Haute, Indiana; etc.

    Many of those that do find themselves in large cities were actually founded way out in the countryside, too, but have since been swallowed---Columbia was sort of in the middle of nowhere in far-upper Manhattan, most of the Boston universities are in Cambridge rather than Boston proper, Stanford was way off from San Francisco, Caltech was considerably outside Los Angeles, etc.

    1. Re:actually somewhat true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A disproportionate number of top universities, relative to population, are in rural areas and small towns...

      I suspect this has more to do with the cost of real estate than with any other factor.

    2. Re:actually somewhat true by SteeldrivingJon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A disproportionate number of top universities, relative to population, are in rural areas and small towns: Ithaca, New York; Urbana-Champaign, Illinois; Hanover, New Hampshire; Durham, North Carolina; Terre Haute, Indiana; etc.

      That's just because their large plots of land were cheap when they were founded, or else were large areas of unused land bequeathed or granted by the government for the purpose.

      --
      September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
    3. Re:actually somewhat true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The students come from all over the place, though. And while the environment may be less distracting, college itself provides enough distractions that I doubt that's an issue. I think the universities were founded where land was available and cheap.

    4. Re:actually somewhat true by solarium_rider · · Score: 1

      Actually, Columbia University was originally located near Wall St and Broadway. It moved up to Midtown for more space, then in the early 20th century it moved to it's present location in the Upper West Side/Harlem/Morningside Heights area. I think Columbia would be the exception in your list. Another fun fact is that it that Columbia University is the second biggest land owner in New York City, behind the Catholic church.

      --
      -- How many sigs are as useless as this one?
    5. Re:actually somewhat true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is more likely due to the large amount of real estate usually required of a university than any reflection on cities themselves

  68. Actually, the article is incorrect. by routerl · · Score: 1

    As pointed out on MindHacks, its not that urban environments are bad for your brain, just that they are not beneficial. That is, it does not impart the positive benefits of natural environments.

    --
    Trust me, kids; don't drink and post.
  69. finally an explanation! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now we know why urban centers are predominantly democratic

  70. For what's it worth... by Sepiraph · · Score: 1

    I had noticed back when I was studying Physics that almost all of my classmates came from small cities (I was the exception). (I believe the situation is similar for other sciences such as biology and chemistry). However, the University itself is located in a small town so it may have skewed the data.

  71. One-sided Study? by FireAllianceNX · · Score: 1

    This article seems silly. You take someone who's used to a way of life, put them in a different settings, they feel stress because they're in a completely different environment. Then you thrown them back to the type of settings they're used to and they feel less stressed out and can remember things because they're not stressed out. DUH? If you take someone who was born and raised in the city and put them into a non-city setting, they get stressed too.

  72. urban locations are for commerce not knowledge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cities and trade are closely linked.
    Money and manufacturing need cities or smaller distances.

    Scientists, philosophers, academics, all used letters and publications and met occasionally - like LUG meetings ;-)
    Newton discovered a lot of his Principia in isolation due to a plague that spread in the city.
    Historically, innovation has happened in natural settings.
    Of course, does not imply that the opposite is a necessary condition - semiconductors, microprocessors, optical devices, communications etc.
    Linux, of course, is stuff of legend. :-)

  73. do you mean bush, dick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    or do you mean bush, rice?

    News has just arrived that rice laden Rum's felled dick who's ayeman with a brown hood!

  74. Ridiculous... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not predators, it's fine asses in brightly colored textiles that are the problem. God-damn cities.

  75. Stupid by SteeldrivingJon · · Score: 1

    City people don't put their desks on the fucking street, so the cognitive load of those times when you're on the street doesn't matter.

    --
    September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
  76. That which doesn't kill you... by techdojo · · Score: 1

    ...doesn't necessarily make you stronger. This is yet another in a series of reports of diminished productivity from things ranging from multi-tasking to ridiculous levels of text messaging.

    None of this should surprise anyone that can actually see the forest through the trees.

    _______________________________
    http://techdojo.org/

  77. Nature Is for Animals by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    Yes, city life demands concentration and ignoring lots of irrelevant stimuli. That's what the mind is for.

    Meanwhile, people who never learn that kind of mental focus often don't develop those skills to apply to other environments, like social groups of people.

    But though city people can relax by going to a park, and have cramped memory or other "open minded" faculties restored, country people can't spend 20 minutes in a city and acquire a focus that will last a week or a year.

    Sounds like these researchers are either country bumpkins, or just people who need to spend some more time walking in the park.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  78. Predators's? Ridiculous. by msimm · · Score: 1

    It's the women with fine asses and brightly colored textiles. God-damn cities.

    --
    Quack, quack.
  79. *cough* price of land *cough* by msimm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While building a University by purchasing, evicting and razing city blocks might sound like fun to you I imagine it might be costly.

    --
    Quack, quack.
  80. Re:Brain Underload - Brain Overload by StikyPad · · Score: 1

    Just as long as they're not leveling a DK in WoW. Jesus, that's got to the the most mind-numbing thing I've ever attempted, with the possible exception of injecting Novocaine directly into my temples.

  81. Re:How the City Hurts Your Brain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  82. Or as Glenn Frey would put it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You belong in the city

    They're responsible for you

    Just ten blocks south of central park

    You belong in the zoo!

  83. Yes! Everyone knows that evolution... by TechnicolourSquirrel · · Score: 1

    ...would have predisposed the human mind to perform poorly in an environment of multiple potentially dangerous stimuli which demand a minimum level of awareness... ...oh wait. I've just noticed that I'm talking complete nonsense. Never mind.

  84. Gamers have known this for decades by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what's basically being said is something that Will Wright demonstrated in the first Sim City game? Only with a lot less fluff.

  85. Sidewalk Stare by mikej · · Score: 1

    I live in New York, and we have a term for the end effect of all this strain. We call it 'sidewalk stare'. I've walked not two feet from someone I know on the sidewalk, and had to reach out and touch their arm to get them to notice me. It's not that they were staring at the concrete, their eyes simply pass over your face and they don't recognize you.

    Think about it this way; Understanding expression consumes an enormous amount of processing power. Taking a sub-second glance at a person's face and intuiting their mood, which you do without trying, chews up calories and other cerebral resources. If you stand on the corner of 18th and 6th Ave. around lunchtime for a minute, you're likely to see literally hundreds of human expressions. You can't stop your mind from distilling all those mental states, because human animals' minds are built to do exactly that. It's exhausting, though you don't always notice it.

    Moving around in a crowded city is mentally and emotionally taxing. Some people thrive on that, and some people are seriously impaired by it. I don't know of a selection criterion other than moving to the city and seeing if you like it, but I think if nothing else it's easier when you're younger. When people talk about being 'tired of the city', I think it's a side-effect of the aging process. All that background effort is, overall, more taxing than it was.

    An interesting corollary: The more money you have, the less of this you have to deal with. Hired cars, large apartments, spacious offices, and frequent vacations all keep this from having as much of an effect.

    --
    Ideology breeds Hypocrisy. Just how much is up to you.
  86. City sidewalks may be noisy, but.... by Alonzo+Meatman · · Score: 1

    it still beats driving!

  87. This is why god created uppers. by atraintocry · · Score: 1

    It's not hard, people!

  88. 5-10 years, then wait for regulatory approval by J'raxis · · Score: 1

    Even if they succeed in 5-10 years, you can count on it taking another decade to reach the market, courtesy of your government. If it ever does: If the modern regulation regime had been around when they were invented, both aspirin and penicillin never would have been approved due to safety concerns.

  89. curious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How would you wipe? No moss in the city street..

  90. What else is new? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey cool, it is good for you walking through parks instead of something called a city where you cannot see the sky.

    And, most intriguing, you can better concentrate when you have a quiet environment where you are not distracted by people (eg. co-workers, phone calls etc.). Really. My mom told me this information decades ago.

    Its like these studies proofing that you perform better when you work on one thing at a time. And that multitasking is neither healthy nor efficient. And therefore such environments are inhuman.

    The most interesting about these studies is, that they make studies to proof things which we already know.

  91. Rest, retreat and recuperation by hjsolbrig · · Score: 1

    Just because its more distracting doesn't mean its bad for you.

    Yes it does. The ancient equivalent of a city would be on the veldt surrounded by predators.

    Hmm, I'm surprise no has mentioned that those who live in the city are not necessarily ALWAYS bombarded by the city's information overload. My home in the Bay Area is surrounded by trees and even has some wildlife. Working independently (at the moment), I can always retreat there and recuperate from any urban overload.

    I would agree that a homeless person (or an overworked truck driver)who is constantly bombarded by the city's information would be driven insane by it - indeed, that's what we often see. But a resident who has a home to retreat to is not necessarily going to be crushed. Information overload, multitasking and similar stresses on the brain are no worse than physical stresses IF a person has proper rest and relaxation in between each experience. Recuperation is the difference between an athlete and a gallery slave and it is the difference between urbanite with a rich cultural life and a person crushed by urban existence.

    And as far as the article, it seems like a collage of various more simplistic studies and perspectives, none of which look at the overall condition of life in cities or rural areas. One quoted scientist describes the brain as inherently limit and thus seems to have missed the unbelievable expansion of human intellectual activity in the last 100,000 years.