Slashdot Mirror
Obama To Launch Website For Tracking Tax Expenditures
internationalflights tips news that Barack Obama, in his first weekly address as President, has mentioned plans to set up a website for tracking "how and where we spend taxpayer dollars." Details about the website, Recovery.gov, are available within the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (PDF). The website "shall provide data on relevant economic, financial, grant, and contract information in user-friendly visual presentations to enhance public awareness of the use funds made available in this Act," and will also "provide a means for the public to give feedback on the performance of contracts awarded for purposes of carrying out this Act." The site itself currently contains a placeholder until the passage of the Act.
When do we get to decide how our money is spent?
While I think this (as a non-US citizen) is a nice idea, my experience with Government released information is that those who should take notice don't and the Government risks the very real threat of releasing too much information... meaning even if someone wanted to look somthing up they'd have a hard job finding it in the first place.
It freaks me out how much Obama's doing right. It's almost as if I've been elected president, except he seems to waste less time on slashdot and actually gets things done.
Can we post comments, click on a little thumbs up/down button, have logins where we set up a profile and can choose what picture displays next to our comments (anime schoolgirl, picture of our cat, Karl Marx, Milton Friedman, etc.), connect to our friends (OMG can you believe they won't be funding our ipod museum WTF!!!), blog about what we think about how our money was spent on researching the impact improving a bridge will have on the local sewer rat population...
Run and catch, run and catch, the lamb is caught in the blackberry patch.
Lets see how Obama's naive idealism deals with the stupidity, bureaucracy, and inteptitude of the Federal Government. He may end up "launching a website" on blogspot himself, which of course would be illegal if he was Republican.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Heh. Where do you nutcases come from, anyway?
The thought might be good. But what percentage of our taxes will be listed as "other" for the NSA, CIA, classified Defense, State and God knows what?
On the other hand, if Americans realize how much is "other", it could be an eye-opener. People will have more to complain about than welfare mothers and mass transit.
I bet that our Congresscritters are not going to like this idea at all--for the very reason that it would actually bring transparency to the appropriations process, exposing all of the pet projects in their home states that they're getting funded. They won't want that info out and available the next time they're up for election . . .
What has surprised me about the Obama campaign was how they used information technology effectively to get their message out. These people get it. This administration understands that the majority of the U.S. population has access to the internet, has become relatively informed about the issues and wants to be kept in the loop with respect to governmental decision making. Not to be partisan, but this is quite a change from the previous administration, who made few efforts to directly connect with the average voter.
So, you can see where billions of dollars are being spent on failing car companies. Not that you can do much about it for 4 years.
Why are our tax dollars being paid to Wackenhut Corp to drive hundreds of empty buses around Tucson AZ in the dead of night?
Because driving at night saves fuel that would otherwise be used to run the air conditioning, obviously.
Blank until
Heh. Where do you nutcases come from, anyway?
Fox News: Will manufacture enemies for food and viewers.
Leave the gun, take the cannolis.
The government should tell us nothing otherwise the terrorists might get a hold of something valuable and use it to plot an attack against a flag lapel pin factory or something else that will compromise our patriotism and freedom!
So will the site include race and job history information of money recipients so we can be sure Reich gets his agenda of not giving money to people with actual skills and / or white construction workers?
Robert Reich's Blog - The Stimulus: How to Create Jobs Without Them All Going to Skilled Professionals and White Male Construction Workers
Why not just irs.gov?
Recovery implies you're only going to see the payouts of this one bill. What, 8, 10, 20 years from now this is where we'll go to get our information about how the government is spending our money?
What exactly will complaining about the effectiveness of a plan give you? Doing anything (like trying to retrieve funding) would require another act of congress. Say, for instance, there are complaints about the contraception funding portion, the money will be disbursed over the 50 states and presumably over multiple agencies. If I have problems with a particular agency will congress act because their .05% portion of the overall funding was only 1% of their total budget? If churches come together and make huge complaints about it (what, 30-40% is a safe bet?) Would "action be taken"? Probably not. So only "big" issues with a lot of noise and that are politically acceptable will get investigated. The myriad of little issues will just get swept under the rug.
The plan looks nice, sounds nice... but smella weird...
Like having 2 people create a tiny web page where text is an image!
Recovery implies you're only going to see the payouts of this one bill.
Because that's exactly what will be happening. This website will only show the breakdown for the spending authorized by one specific bill, not for the whole federal government.
... he didn't wear a USA flag lapel pin. I can only imagine how 4 years of McCain would've been different.
To this ONE recovery act.
There will be NO listing of the CIA, FBI or NSA budgets...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It would be nice if the 2488x3216 pixel image at:
http://www.opencongress.org/
could be a bit smaller.
Let's see also, where the money comes into "the US govt", so we can see how far out of balance the overall budget really is (and whether we like where it is). I've always liked the chart where all the inputs (taxes and fees) are on one edge (stacked in a bar graph), with splits and flows to the outputs (expenditures) so in one picture you can see all the flows of $ into and out of the federal budget. Click on parts to drill down. "back in time" arrow to see what happened in previous years / administrations. Flag events (war, 9/11, ) to put into timeline/historical context. I'll be keeping an eye on the link. Thanks for posting.
Will it include race, gender, and job history information of recipients so we can be sure Secretary Reich's goal of keeping money out of the hands of skilled workers and white male construction workers is being met?
The Stimulus: How to Create Jobs Without Them All Going to Skilled Professionals and White Male Construction Workers
Because some idiots thinks buses is a good idea? Personally I hate them, less so for long trips though. But within a city or as commute transport they suck balls, slower than a bike or more expensive than a car...
What we need is small personal electronical transportation devices.
Launching a website is nothing.
I didn't vote for the man but I agree with everything he's done so far.
Now if he can just get Universal Health Care going, and bring home our troops from ALL the nations where they are deployed, and redeploy them along our boarders to curtail drug traffic and illegal immigration I would be even more happy.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
What he really needs to improve is the bridge *for* the local sewer rat population. Local sewer rats have rights and in the words of PETA--local sewer rats are our friends! He won't build it though, he ran against rat bridges to nowhere. Palin would have built it though, she'd have added three oil pipelines under it and used a Sega Genesis to model it.
OMG I didn't know about the IPOD museum!! I knew he'd never bring change to the government!! THREE THUMBS DOWN!!!
I think the gov should blatantly rip off the deathandtaxes website for their actual budget as well. Why stop at having super oversight of just the recovery money? This would work brilliantly for the budget as well.
Hah. So, the two most fiscally conservative presidents in the past two decades may turn out to be *gasp* DEMOCRATS!
"Only two solutions?" Open source governance is more than just a Wikipedia article. It is starting up right now.
But the man kept hitting the "thumbs down" on each proposal. What kind of democracy is it when a dozen people on the internet support the ipod museum and all their suggestions get buried to the ground? I mean, why should any comment get buried?
Hopefully Obama will dedicate 24 billion to eliminating all software bugs everywhere. Those fat cats on wall street have let the bug problem carry on far to long. We need a bug-bailout *and* an ipod museum in every major city (Chicago, New York and Quahog, RI).
But seriously. If the Obama administration manages to pull off a successful, community oriented website during his presidency, I'll be very, very impressed. The moderation challenges alone will be a huge issue. How do you create a platform where
a) Your right to voice your opinion is protected by the constitution.
b) The website should be open to all
c) You want to create *some* kind of community, and to do so means sorting the wheat from the chaff.
d) People will post redundant crap
e) People will cry foul the second your bury their inane "ipod museum" idea.
f) A controversial issue might easily generate thousands of comments.
I tell you where I'd start, personally. I'd break the site into multiple sites organized by agency and topic. That way if you are interested in transit, the website you follow will not get "polluted" by people interested in energy policy.
It *has* to be separate websites, not just sections. The easiest way to kill a community website is to open it up to topics that don't fit with the original ones (like when Digg or Kuro5hin added politics...). With the topics divided by domain, it will keep the heat down by removing the urge to drag off-topic flames into a post. Merged, somebody might inject some nugget about gun control into their argument against solar cars and derail the whole thread.
Bottom line, if they can pull off a series of good, participatory websites hosted by Uncle Sam, my hats off to them.
It's awesome to look at where tax dollars are being spent. But wouldn't it be better not to have so many things to have to look at?
Take the "stimulus" bill that hardly spends any money this year (you know, when stimulus would seem to be required to actually help anyone). Happily thanks to third parties you can see just what kind of boondoggle is underway, and try to speak about about just what kind of pork is being lathered on a massive government spending increase:
ReadTheStimulous.org
We need openness BEFORE as well as after money is spent.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You didn't read the article? There are hundreds of empty buses being driven without any passengers (or prisoners?) in the middle of the night. Every damn night! Empty! That's the stupidest waste of our taxes I ever saw. We're all paying Wackenhut Corp to waste our taxes on doing nothing productive at all.
A lot of those line items in a bill don't apply to you or your state. How would you feel if your senator added a line for funding light rail in your region and it was voted down by some jackass who doesn't live in your state? After all, didn't they get their stupid Elvis Museum funded last year? Why should their state get a grant and then have our project get overruled based on the will of random internet users.
Letting random internet users vote on each line item would change the power balance in government. It would let a non representative sample of people influence the government "outside" the house or senate. On the surface, the idea of letting internet users "vote" on bills sounds good, but there would be a lot of unintended consequences. You'd have to re-balance a lot of how government operates before you let people vote digg-style on legislation.
All this posting like we need some kind of system like Slashdot.... I hope you have an avenue to the bidding process....
The government needs to make sure that they post actual data in a portable format like XML. The EPA publishes emissions data http://camddataandmaps.epa.gov/gdm/ in portable XML formats for scientist and the public to use the data as they need. For example, http://www.govtrack.us/ uses publicly published data to deliver a complete service. Having the data available as a feed or a series of published data files instead of some static website enables everyone else to see the details and deliver meaningful content.
I voted for my congress critters based on how much money I thought they could get to fund Sound Transit. For me, I'd judge them based on how successful they were at doing that. This website, or any like it, will help me find that information out.
It will also let me know if our state gets a fair slice of the pie. If we aren't I'd blame our congress people, it is their job to make sure we get a fair share--they are elected to stand up for us Washingtonians.
I don't know where you live, but odds are good that many roads you drive on, libraries you use, or city halls you walk into were funded with "pork". What looks like pork to somebody on the outside just might be an important project for your state. As long as the "pork" is spent fairly among states and doesn't bankrupt us, who are we to judge what other states do with their share?
I'm an Obama supporter, but I think this bill is a mistake. Too much government spending in a short period of time leads to three things: waste, fraud, and abuse. We will get a feeding frenzy of lobbyists in every capital, pork barrel projects, sweetheart deals, and shoddy construction work. It is a perfectly predictable outcome.
On top of that, there will be shortages of certain parts and specialized labor leading to inflated costs, because government is competing against itself.
The President says there will be no pork and no earmarks... what else is new. EVERY administration announces that when they roll out their first budget. You can look back and see how that worked out. Congressmen and state legislators do not stop being politicians just because the economy is in crisis.
Here's an idea which has probably already come up behind closed doors, but perhaps this can be used as a baseline (call it the "Real Simple Recovery Bill"). Scale up the Bush tax rebate bill and add a taper to make it moderately progressive:
Reported income $50K and under: $4000 tax rebate
$150K and over: $1000 tax rebate
In between: pro-rated, e.g. $90K gets $2800
The rebate would not be issued in one big check, but would be staggered in perhaps six equal installments on a schedule like this: Feb 09, Mar 09, May 09, Aug 09, Dec 09, May 10. The intervals follow an arithmetic progression, to discourage people from depending on these rebates as a regular source of income.
People living hand to mouth will likely either spend their checks as soon as they get it (good, that's a stimulus) or use it to pay down debts (even better, that reduces the current hurt on banks). Wealthier people tend to save more and spend a smaller percentage of their income, which isn't as helpful, but they still get a substantial rebate so they can be part of the program.
Pros:
- money gets pumped into the economy immediately
- some consumer debt gets paid off
- a "natural" stimulus that relies on the market to determine worthwhile goods and services
- everybody who filed a tax return gets a benefit
(unlike the Bush rebate which was restricted)
- lower income folks get a hand up
- no new pork barrel programs, no room for lobbyists
- easy to understand and administer
- plan could be extended into late 2010 if necessary
Cons:
- stokes the budget deficit (but so does every other serious proposal)
- not a "visionary" proposal
- doesn't address clean energy, weak schools, highway infrastructure, etc.
During the inauguration, I got a text message from them asking if I wanted more info about the event. Once I set "yes", I got messages about the weather, where to go in Washington dc and other local info (even though I wasn't there :-). Once it was over, I got a thankyou email from "President Barack Obama" (info@pic2009.org) thanking me for participating.
Their campaign sent out all kinds of text messages and emails, I donated to the Red Cross/Hurricane Gustav by text message thanks to them. It was pretty impressive how much they used this new-fanged inter-tube-text-messaging thing. The fact they took that technology and are now using it for "serious business" is a great sign.
In short, when was the last time you ever got an email or text message from "President George Bush" thanking you for anything?
Because some idiots thinks buses is a good idea? Personally I hate them, less so for long trips though. But within a city or as commute transport they suck balls, slower than a bike or more expensive than a car...
I am an extensive mass transport system user who, every day, benefits from a multi-modal network that involves bus, suburban train and subway system. I use it to not only cover a 40km trip to work each day but also on my off time. In order to gain access to the local mass transport network I need to pay 47 euros for a montly pass. That is 47 euros for unlimited access to multiple modes of transportation. That ends up costing right under 600 euros a year.
Where exactly can you purchase a car for 600 euros a year? Are you able to run a car for a year with 600 euros worth of gasoline/diesel? Can you even maintain a car (insurance, maintenance, etc...) with 600 euros a year? No, you can't.
Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
I really wish they'd implement something like this in the People's Republik of Kalifornia. It would be nice to tell them what useless programs to cut instead of trying to raise our taxes in the name of public safety and education.
Is when you are down, how little help the tax code gives you. Why the hell do we (at least in the state of Washington) pay sales tax on medication? Why the hell is there any threshold for medical expenses--I should be able to deduct 100% of my expenses, not everything over 7.5% of my adjusted gross income?
And if they really wanted to get America out of debt, they'd figure out a way to let you deduct your credit card payments. Of course, that idea has some interesting challenges--namely how do you structure it so it only applies to old debt? What you wouldn't want is people getting credit cards and then using them as a tax dodge. You'd have to structure it so it applies to the balance before, say 2008.
Arnold promised to open the books in California when he campaigned for governor. What he learned upon his election was that it is impossible. Governments with as much pork as the USG (or California) cannot be transparent unless they trim down.
And good luck getting a leaner government under Republicans and Democrats. The best you can hope for is that they will spend most of their time in deadlocks (so they can't add more pork).
The web browser is a dead end
davecb5620@gmail.com
Actually it isn't. You don't judge a book by its size, do you? You don't judge how good a computer is based on its size, do you? No. You judge them based on how well they do their job, not based on their physical makeup.
Regan was wrong. Size doesn't matter. It is how well you do the job that matters.
Let's see if it lists every single earmark and who is responsible for it. That crap accounts for more than 20% of the waste and could be 40%. Then we will know who to target for defeat in the next election.
All spending bills have to originate in the House. Seems that we need to just vote against every incumbent for the next 5 or 6 elections.
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
Moderators or administrators please delete this ASAP, and ban the IP range of the parent post.
What will be of secret underground military bases where they keep all those alien spaceships and huge jars of pickled aliens?
How will they be funded now? Where will Will Smith and Vivica A. Fox get married in case of a alien invasion? In a field somewhere?
There WAS a reason US government was spending $20,000.00 on a hammer, $30,000.00 on a toilet seat, you know?
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
So he can get massive public response on an issue, then ignore it?
Obama really is amazing. I'm sure he has a lot of help, so at the very least he hired really good helpers! I guess it helps having a horribly incompetent president precede him, but he is just kicking ass right out of the gates!
read some interesting stuff at mightyinteresting.com
And just who will decide what is "relevant," and to what it is relevant.
My problem at this point is the apparent "need to know" basis by which the administration will run, and has run since the campaign. There has been a cycle of deflection and disinformation already which does not inspire a lot of Hope(tm) for Change(tm).
And will this be another hard and fast rule against which exceptions will be made for no other reason than being the "best option?"
But then, why not? We are already fostering a culture of entitlement to do whatever you want to do, anyway. "You have to work hard to succeed! Well, unless you don't want to work hard, then we'll legislate your success for you."
Dude. Learn how to spell stimulus.
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
Would you believe that I make errors to avoid offending the Gods with my perfection?
Some privacy policy Slashdot.
Apparently these are prison busses, not the public transportation kind. Unless they're transferring alien visitors that are invisible to human eyes they're not serving any purpose (maybe budget retention? We all know how budgets work...).
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
But most people under 50k in income don't pay anywhere near $4k in taxes.....so why are they getting the big rebates on taxes they never paid?
..first one to register and create something like "seethebudget.com", mirror the gov page with forums, comments, and articles about specific parts of the budget - will be a millionaire.
Tons of folks logging on to bitch, moan, flame, and look at banner ads. Sounds like a winner =P
Trackball users will be first against the wall.
But what we really need is a version tracking and autentication system for federal legislation to complement it.
It'd work like this.
You go onto the President's budget website and discover, say, a a hundred thousand dollar grant to some local company to study the effect of interpretive dance on crop growth. Where did it come from? Well, the budget site tells you it was an earmark in the 2010 transportation bill. How did it get into that?
Well, you go to Congress's legislation site, and find that the earmark was in the final bill, but not the initial house bill. The earmark was inserted the night before the bill went to a final vote, and the digital signature belongs to an aid in Senator Blowhard's office.
Transparency isn't just publishing data. It's establishing accountability by making everything traceable.
The technology to do this isn't exotic. The system resembles the kind of version control systems that even small software development teams can install and put in place. Commercial, off the shelf document and workflow management systems that could handle this for an enterprise the size of Congress have been in existence for at least twenty years, to my personal knowledge.
It would be amazing if putting such a system in place cost would more than ten or twenty million dollars. Even if it cost a hundred million, how much money would it save, even just in the first year? Could we even put a price on how much less corrupt government would be?
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
The debate isn't about size. It never was about size. "The size of government is the problem" is nothing more then a red-herring that lets our government get off the hook for doing a bad job.
The debate is, always was, and always will be about making sure the government does its job effectively. Every one of your bullet points are problems of their own. Their solution *might* be "make some aspect smaller", but their solution might be something entirely different as well. If all you say is "get rid of it", you might never actually solve the problem.
Regan basically thought the solution too all government problems is to remove them. He made mention of identifying the problems, to him the problem *was* government. This is a stupid argument--our world is to complex to believe that fixing our problems is as simple as shrinking the government. Look at the result! We let our government slack off on regulation and set us up for this recession thing we are now in.
Obama says "figure out what is wrong, and solve that". If a government program sucks, kill it. If it is a good program but badly managed, fix the management. If it is a good program and well managed, reward it.
Regan's entire argument was wrong. The entire argument was an excuse and a rationalization for poorly managed government. "Make something smaller" is a solution to specific problems, not a solution to all problems. The goal is to make the government work for the people, not make it bigger or smaller. If the government works well, who cares what the size is!
No it isn't.
DHS....mysterious buses...mysterious government installations - might be a prison....the only thing missing is a fleet of black helicopters.
In times of trouble, the smell of frying onions usually gives confidence and comfort.
My hunch on this? The best way to end this "war on drugs" is for him to not lift a finger. States, via their initiative process, are already slowly ending the war for us. As long as Obama lets the whole thing go under the radar, by the time he leaves office the power state governments have will be significantly reduced. The *minute* he talks about reforming drug law, the gig will be up. The pro-drug war people will make it a wedge issue like gun control or abortion and the whole "underground" reform will grind to a halt. The best way he can end the drug war is to just let the process work its way out on its own.
As for the recession, I think we can't place blame anywhere until it is over and we can use hindsight to figure it out. But I'll bet you "regulation was a major problem" isn't right. Regulation is a word used to describe something. You can have good regulation and bad regulation. Partisan politics in this country have eroded our ability to communicate effectivly. They've taken words like "regulation" and assigned negative connotations to them that simply do not belong.
What you probably mean is "the wrong kinds of regulation helped cause the problem". That is a non ideological, non-loaded, non-partisan statement we can all agree on. If we could all work to stop loading words like "regulation" with emotional connotations, we'd go a long ways to ending this stupid partisan bullshit. Put your anger, concern and outrage into the word "wrong", not "regulation". Say "the wrong kind of regulation" and then offer "the right kinds of regulation". Saying "regulation itself is the problem" is a cop-out used by slick politicians to dodge complex issues :-)
But for all we really know your cat, Fluffy, caused this. I know my cat seems awfully content these days. Wonder what they know that we don't?
The word "rebate" is used euphemistically. In some cases it amounts to a cash grant from the Fed. government.
Put money in the hands of the American consumers, until the economy has been jump-started. Then, with normal levels of tax revenues coming in, we'll worry about cleaning up the mess (budget deficit).
So no we're trusting our elected officials to accurately report on how they're spending our money? Have we gone mad? When was the last time you saw a campaign advertisement that didn't twist the numbers to say what the candidate wanted to say? I'm pretty sure independent sources outside Washington DC should be compiling these numbers, not people with an agenda.
They've been hoping to directly observe black holes for years! They might even glimpse the raw singularity!
If $800 billion falls past the federal event horizon, is it lost to the economy forever?
Grassroots is our next step. Obama is in the process of setting up a new grassroots organization, "Organizing For America" to help us connect with our legislature.
Check out the video
http://my.barackobama.com/page/m2/55c13e0e/5004f5b0/3bc0ea31/11884c10/4128887817/VEsE/
Folks, the problem isn't that we don't have transparency in expenditures, it's that the US took it's Chinese credit card and went on a spending spree. Now we're about to charge up another trillion dollars worth of spending, so we can "recover" from the last trillion. That'll just make the debt bubble worse.
The problem is that over the past twenty years both political parties have acted to unbalance our saving and lending rates. Until we get that back into balance, we're going to remain in this economic cave.
The answer is saving, not spending. The answer is productivity, not newer and nicer physical facilities. The answer is less debt, not more.
I fail to see how transparancy in spending solves the fundamental problem.
Going after the bush-era full bore might make a lot of far-left democrats happy, but it would instantly piss off the republicans end the so-called "honeymoon". Speaking up too loudly about FISA right now would burn political capital he needs for more immediate plans (sadly).
Would you rather have him use up his political capitol on FISA, or something else? He can't do everything--he has to compromise on some things to move forward.
And if anybody though Obama was gonna go on a witch-hunt after the former administration, you will be dissapointed. He has said numerous times he wants to look forward, not backward.
Or, again, smart politics. Maybe he doesn't want to kick a fuss and burn his political capital over FISA because he figures it will be knocked down in the courts. Maybe if he did kick up a fuss, it would make it even *harder* to remove. Look at the war on drugs--the best way to fix that little problem is to shut the fuck up about it and start funding statewide initiative that chip away at it. The minute Obama starts talking about ending the drug war, the whole process will grind to a halt and become yet another wedge like "gun control" or "abortion".
Or maybe he agrees with parts of it. Who knows? Politics isn't easy.
How does congress manage documents now? Are they just emailing word documents around as attachments, or is there a modern-ish document management system in place? Is it homebrew, or commercial?
A quick search turned up that "they" might already be working on a solution to your problems.
FDsys
The proposed site is not going to display tax spending it is going to display how the money is going to be/is being spend to get an economic recovery going.
This is important because one of the major parts of getting out of the economic problem is to get people to think that things are going good and they should start spending and using credit again. If people start seeing that things are getting better and more money is going into the economy, and that more will jobs available there is a better chance that they will start spending.
While the recovery.gov site mentions taxes it mainly is about the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 and the 1-2 trillion dollars that barak will be wanting for this is not coming from taxes it is coming from US Government loans and if they cannot get the loans then it will come from the printing of more money.
47,- euros a month for unlimited access? Is it bound to a specific route?
I live in The Netherlands and my costs far outweigh that number. For the sake of simplicity let's assume I travel the same route 5 days a week.
A yearly subscription for the train between on a route of +/- 55km would cost me 132.40,- euros a month. Because I recently graduated I received a subsidized public transit subscription which allows me to currently bring this down to about 100,- euros a month (ignoring any taxes, again for the sake of simplicity). Add to that the fact that just traveling back-and-forth between the train station with the bus (+/- 10km) costs me about 4,- euros per trip. That's 80,- euros without a subscription, I could possibly bring that down to about 60,- euros a month with a subscription.
So in a best case scenario (without the subsidized subscription) using public transit costs me roughly 2300,- euros on a yearly basis.
Back on-topic. What I'm wondering is just how much spending is included with the bill that mandates this website. I actually opened it with the intention of at least somewhat reading it, but it has a gazillion more pages than I'm willing to read right now. Starting with a bill that mandates actually reading the bills sounds like a plan to me.
Perfect is the enemy of done.
Be careful of where you draw the line. The existence of the buses is real enough, having been documented by local radio stations and local photographers. The purpose of the buses is, however, uncertain, and the subject of plenty of conspiracy bs. We are not discussing any of the conspiracy bs here. We are discussing an apparent obvious waste of tax dollars that looks like corporate welfare for Wackenhut. All taxpayers have a right to question how their tax dollars are being spent, especially where there is apparent wasteful expenditure.
what ? everyone is allowed to go otaku every once in a while.
Read radical news here
Mass transit receives enormous subsidies and only service small areas, which massively shifts the numbers.
Don't load that link except with wget.
As opposed to saving even more by not driving always empty buses out of the bus compound late at night and back there again without ever stopping anywhere to collect anybody? Or ya know, how about not buying/renting the buses and the compound in the first place? I suggest it is a stupid waste of our tax dollars, and Wackenhut should get back to their business of running prisons (you did read the article, right??)
Stop defiling my name you racist shitbag.
Yours in Me,
Jesus Christ
Part of the problem stateside is that transportation isn't that cheap. Even in New York, which can't survive without mass transit, it costs $2 every time you get on the subway. I think you can parlay that into a bus pass, but if you're coming from Newark or something, it can easily cost you $15/day in transit, between a train trip and subway fees. That's roughly 250 euros per month.
Now, can you run a car on 3000 Euros per year? Probably. Also, thanks for being an insolent shit and not getting your facts straight, assuming Americans don't use public transit because of malice towards the environment or Europe or 3rd world countries or god knows what. If there were a way that people who commute to Washington or New York could pay $60/mo ($47 euro) for unlimited public transit, people would jump on it by the millions.
Just to drive the point home, let's say you live in a suburb of Washington, DC like ... Stafford VA.
Step 1: Drive to Fredericksbug and get on the train. Here's your fare:
http://www.vre.org/service/fares.htm
That gets you to L'Enfant Plaza in DC, from which you have to transfer onto the Metro, and head to, say, DuPont Circle (you work in the diplomatic corps). that's $1.35 each way.
So, when you add up a monthly pass on the VRE plus $2.70/day on the metro, you're talking $325/mo plus wear and tear on your car, plus whatever they charge for parking at the train station, to commute aproximately 45 miles to work. Let's call it $400/mo. That actually works out to more like 3600 euros a year.
But of course, we're the bad guys for shunning mass transit. Please choke on your self righteousness.
sig?
very true. the bills aren't for our time anymore and are overbloated. this "lets share info with society" will take a lot of load from senators when all the pork watchers are doing their part. 1 man might not be able to keep up but a society will. this more open sourced govt will be better for everyone. who knows? they might actually let 20% of your tax dollars have limited choice as to where you'd like it spent. might stop corporate tax evaders as they now have power over their money again (but within reason) log in site where everyone can bitch out is perfect. it's needed as everyone has issues on their minds. all they gotta do is get this ball rolling and issues will iron themselves out as they progress, much as linux sucked when it was first out. all code and only tech people used it. now grandma can have her ubuntu set up for her to check webmail and surf no problem. the govt can let it's people decide stuff, keep the power of the senate for tie breakers, and of course the leader above them signing bills/laws. what i'd like to see is a law website law.gov where people can make/propose laws or vote on exsisiting ones that are out of line (in their opinion). majority vote of 60% can force senate to vote on the matter. least attention to diff things might be good for everyone. always gonna be a group pushing to bring back slavery but doubt they'd hit 60% in favour. even if they did it's against master root code so it'd be thrown out (i surely hope!) things like music/movies downloads might hit 95% not wanting to be sued over it and long as its not for profit (burning dvds from yer garage for the neighbourhood) it ain't against the law from forcing the senate to vote, recording their decision, and not electing them next time based on their vote. balances itself out. :D
or military votes from people in service for where they feel they should go/pull out of. not that there votes will count any more but at least its all recorded for the leaders to see and their fellow kin to see.
really hope they use this population resource to get guidance as to what our pop really needs/wants. far as im concerned i could vote on 50-100 things a day happily. least my vote would count on a website, still worth more then the last election! or the one before that!
one single vote every 5 years just simply aint enough input from us...
And I've said it elseware...
Our governments (all of them) should be the folks in charge of SSL. In a perfect world, we'd get a free SSL certificate with our drivers license or business license.
In addition to 47 Euros, how much of your monthly taxes goes to subsidizing that transport? "Hidden costs" != "No costs".
That said, I'm pretty sure public transport is still more financially efficient. And it has other benefits (such as being able to go out drinking and not have to worry about driving home). And it allows foreign visitors to travel with much greater ease. And provides transport options to those who can't afford cars.
Not one man or woman, not one penny for the imperialist war! Mobilize workers power on the road to international socialist revolution! Defend Cuba, China, North Korea and Vietnam against capitalist counterrevolution and imperialist aggression! For new October revolutions an a reforged Leninist-Trotskyist Fourth International!
Heh. Where do you nutcases come from, anyway?
Fox News: Will manufacture enemies for food and viewers.
No, you've mixed your biases/networks. That was a communist/socialist troll. Fox News is claimed to be biased right. NBC/MSNBC/ABC...well...practically all the others...are claimed to be biased left, so would be the more sensible guess as to a leftist, pro-socialist/communist trollers' favorite network.
Just sayin'
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Because some idiots thinks buses is a good idea? Personally I hate them, less so for long trips though. But within a city or as commute transport they suck balls, slower than a bike or more expensive than a car...
I am an extensive mass transport system user who, every day, benefits from a multi-modal network that involves bus, suburban train and subway system. I use it to not only cover a 40km trip to work each day but also on my off time. In order to gain access to the local mass transport network I need to pay 47 euros for a montly pass. That is 47 euros for unlimited access to multiple modes of transportation. That ends up costing right under 600 euros a year.
Where exactly can you purchase a car for 600 euros a year? Are you able to run a car for a year with 600 euros worth of gasoline/diesel? Can you even maintain a car (insurance, maintenance, etc...) with 600 euros a year? No, you can't.
Remember that the 47 Euros you pay is only your outright cost. The government heavily subsidizes public transportation with your tax dollars.
You need to also consider that in the US, we don't have as developed a system of public transportation and people travel much further to work than in Europe (especially in the midwest). In these situations public transit can cost more than in Europe and also can 2-3 times longer than driving. When you have 4 hours of time at home, you don't always want to add an extra 2 hours to your commute with public transit.
Techincally, a "tax expenditure" is when the government forgoes revenue on something in order to protect or promote it (ex. the 501(c)(3) tax exemption is a tax expenditure on charitable activities). See this definition: Tax Expenditure
The federal government "spends" vast amounts of money by specially exempting certain things from taxation. (This is not to be confused with the stuff government doesn't have a right to tax to begin with.)
Boom Shanka
I fail to see how transparancy in spending solves the fundamental problem.
It doesn't. But some would see this as a necessary first step. We can't fix what we don't know about, and if nothing else, this might make a few Congressrats think twice. Then again, it might not, but it probably can't hurt.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Obama needs to get new designers for the site. Or Doug Jackson and Laura Clark GSA need to get some updated training in HTML. :-)
That just shows how sucky it is to work in a large city and work for companies that don't provide parking.;)
Most of the metros in Europe are in the $1.50 - $2 range for a single ride, Paris is around $1.90, Marid is around $1.25, London the most expensive at $5.00 with discount, close to $8.00 without. You do have decent discounts if you purchase monthly tickets, and those long distance trains are good discounts, but from workmates who use them they are linked to specific sites and have limits to make them usable as work transport.
Now for some reality, here in Germany if you are in the rural areas mass transit is like in the US. I could take that discount for trains but the train comes by once an hour, each direction. The bus comes every 15-20 mins during morning and evening times but besides normal users they are also used as school buses so are filled with kids; trains are also used for school transportation.
There are reasons that the streets are filled with cars even with the "great" mass transit.
In this case:
"shall provide data on relevant economic, financial, grant, and contract information in user-friendly visual presentations to enhance public awareness of the use funds made available in this Act,"
The keyword is "relevant". The key question is "who decides what is relevant?"
Note that the answer isn't Obama. He can't micromanage to that level, even if he was so inclined (and I've seen no evidence that he's inclined to micromanage).
Note also that this seems to apply only to the Act in question, NOT the entire federal budget.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
You post in this thread, and the moderation is undone :)
[Sorry to stay off-topic, please don't destroy my karma]
Can you imagine how cool it would be if they used an interactive zoomable pie chart like this one that shows inflation.
You'd start with every government department visible, you could then zoom in to any spending program and see how it was made up, area being proportional to cost.
If recovery.gov don't do it, someone should.
"provide a means for the public to give feedback on the performance of contracts awarded for purposes of carrying out this Act"
No, I didn't. I though it was about somewhat empty buses, or completely empty such as the ones outside the central city over here which I guess exist because it should be possible to commute but it seems kind of a waste when there's sometimes just a few passengers.
Why do they drive around then?
Are you serious? Good god.
Swoosh.
Think about it a little harder. Consider abandoning career plans in politics, intelligence, law enforcement or anything involving deception. Just sayin'.
I live in Ã-rebro, Sweden.
I have no idea what bus costs are now but back in the days when I lived at my mom bus to the city cost 36 SEK if I remember correctly, a distance of 20-25 km. If we only count gasoline you'll notice that the gasoline cost for a car would be less than the bus fee.
Then I also happen to know that back then you only did pay around 20% of the actual cost by fees since the rest was paid by taxes, so even if you didn't paid it on the bus the fee cost around 36*5=180 SEK.
Add the fact that the busses in the city almost always get close to full but the busses from around the cities often travels with just a few people who happens to need the bus / don't have cars / .. So there cost is probably higher in percent, so it may be above those 180 SEK ...
And this isn't that weird if you consider the prices of the busses, the employe driving the bus, the amount of fuel a bus probably need, and so on.. Also idiots vandalising bus stops and buses and such.
And if you live outside the city you probably have atleast one car already since you more or less need it and planing your trips by every second hour schedules and such and also getting to the bus stop when it's winter and such suck so people use the car. So there goes much of the maintenance cost to since people have cars anyway.
Within the city it makes somewhat more sense, they go quite often and not everyone living in a city need a car.
But when I studied at the university I lived on one side of the town and the university was at the other, taking the bus took like 30 minutes and taking the bike took like 20 minutes. Sure you don't get any ice, rain and such but ...
And when I go to the gym the bike is faster than the bus again, and also if I'm at the gym I don't really know when I will finish, and I'm doing it on the evenings so the bus schedules is more stretched out.
So then I may have to wait on the bus for 10-30 minutes, or just take the bike and get home in 15. If there is no rain the saved amount of time of say 15-45 minutes vs 15 minutes makes it worth it, also the saved cost. And if there is rain or whatever I'd still have to wait in the fucking rain on the bus so I'd rather start getting home than standing in the rain.
And then there is the issue with lots of buses in the city since they lead to more red lights, you get to bicycle in their fumes and shit like that. No buses and less trafic in the city, eventual no engine powered things at all (though probably impossible) and open roads for all kinds of "people" would be so much more fun and enjoyable =P
They had an idea of building a roof over the cycle roads from the city to the university, which would be a really nice idea because then the rain and eventually ice to would become a non-issue for cyclists.
To hell with buses!
Also I've seen videos of KMX trike with 84 volt electronic helper motor mod, and his bike was one of the smaller ones so he mentioned it got unstable around 60 mph (I wouldn't go that fast in a fucking bicycle trike but whatever ..) ..
The trike is around 1000 euro for a better model and the engine and such is probably 500 euro more or so but then you can go wherever you want for almost a free cost and it would run on electricity and be quiet and all
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1103941&cid=26603017
Yeah, see my post about paying 36 SEK for 25 km trip but knowing that's just 1/5 of the cost so the actual cost for the people is closer to 180 SEK ...
Gasoline for said trip would be like 20 SEK. And it would get even better if you had more than one passenger in the car.
I see it was "omg we need to offer alternatives to cars! Cars stupid!", so then they waste everyones money on that crap.
Get the electric devices going instead, let me have a small low energy one myself or make a phone call so one come and pick me up. Also eventually let them link together as "trains" for longer trips.
As a product of one of the women the parent mentions, I agree with pretty much every word there; the government makes it viable for women to produce children that, more often than not, amount to nothing, for that extra six hundred dollars a month from raping the system.
It's strange, but there does seem to be a culture around cheating the government through mass-reproduction and claiming all these faux mental issues (ADD? Seriously, they're kids; they'll be energetic!), which is passed down, more often than not, to the children of these women.
This is a cancer in society that ought to be cut out quickly, though as long as there are people that genuinely deserve help, there will be people faking injury to live free and lazy. It seems the only ways to stop this abuse are to shut the system down or change the way claims are evaluated.
That spreadsheet is an interesting read.. but to be fair, think about some of these projects, especially building and construction projects.. you just don't throw the money out there and boom your doing it tomorrow..
The education funds might have an immediate impact, especially if you can convert some people from unemployment to fully funded students.. but again, to use the money wisely it takes time to screen it to people who will actually be successful.
I am not sure where they are with this spreadsheet, seems to be less than halfway there.. and it also seems that there are quite a few loans in there..
13 billion for education for disadvantaged, and 16 billion more for financial aid.. don't quite see the difference between the two.. Just lump it all together in financial aid, and make sure that the people getting it, really need it.
The SBA loan figure is pathetic at 426 million (I think it should be like half of the 800 billion).. I'd like to see a program where groups of experienced people, who lost their jobs because their employers panicked (thereby creating this mess), could start their own companies.
waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
All our tax dollars are used to service the interest on our debt, should be a pretty easy site to create and maintain...
Change.gov worked and the new site seems to be a logical and excellent extension. This administration is actually encouraging and allowing us to get involved, take action and communicate with our leaders. I've had an amazing amount of communication with and through the change.gov site and it raised millions via small, private donations and fundraisers towards covering the cost of the inauguration (something most pundits ignored).
It's not about getting everything we want nor should we always get what we want. Since the Baby Boomers made throwing temper tantrums and self-absorption into "political action" the standard response now is "Hey, I'm not getting exactly what I want so I want it ruined for everyone else." Throughout our history the majority wanted things like slavery, child labor, sweat shops, Japanese internment camps, segregation, the war in Vietnam and more that upon reflection were wrong. Usually, the majority is opposed to new technology and R & D. Wise up, guys! Corporations will not do what's in the best interest of the nation's citizens -- or even what's in the best long-term interest of the corporation!
But good leaders communicate with the majority and persuade enough of the right action to make a positive (we hope) change in the world. The Obama administration knows that and are trying to provide the communication. They also understand the technology and are trying to build the tools for communication.
After *cough cough* years of presidents, including one who approached the military heads about supporting a coup to take over the government, another who was suffering dementia and another who committed treason and ignored the constitution, I'm full of gratitude for a president who at least makes an effort to give some voice to the citizens.
Funny? That should be modded Insightful.
I am an extensive mass transport system user who, every day, benefits from a multi-modal network that involves bus, suburban train and subway system.
I live in Oslo, Norway. 550 NOK (~61 Euro) per month gives unlimited access to public transportation (Subway, tram, train, bus, boat) within the city limits.
Mass transit will likely have a boom as mobile devices with efficient route planners get more common. The key point is the network effect of mass transit - the more people that use it, the more efficient it becomes.
The unique benefit of cars is that they provide mobile storage. Having a place to dump all the stuff you "might" need is often more important than the difference in transportation.
I lost my sig.
That's kind of like saying, "It's cold as hell outside." It makes no sense and has no bearing on reality, since most construction workers are illegal Latinos.
Meanwhile, Pelosi is funneling hundreds of millions of dollars of federal stimulus money to "family planning" services (a.k.a. black baby killers). When will that insufferable witch be muzzled? The stimulus bill should be renamed "The Uberliberal Pet Project and Cronyism Reward Package of 2009." That would be more intellectually honest.
Conclusion:
Good public transportation exists in some places and not in others.
(fwiw I still think bicycles are the best invention since the wheel. Still the most efficient form of transportation yet to be invented and/or discovered.)
The busses, in concert with a massive new DHS prison facility in Florence, AZ, are being prepared in anticipation of civil unrest after the U.S. can no longer service its debt after 2009 and collapses economically.
I think this would be more appropriate if Obama legislated that all LOCAL tax expenditures would be tracked centrally for folks to check.
I only say this as I remember when I first started working for government there was a bit of sticker shock. By that I mean that due to the scale of things it is sometimes hard to understand the cost. There are also some costs in government that I would call intangibles. That was for Ontario, Canada also, the US would be several magnitudes greater than that. I can just see people looking at some of the costs and not really understanding that in many cases what you may think is a gigantic sum, is really just a drop in the bucket when put into perspective.
Additional oversight is good, however only if those people watching have any clue as to what they are looking at...
Hell most people don't know what their mechanic is even doing (myself included), and they could say "You need to replace the Bortan McScattle, and that is going to cost you about 850$". My answer is usually, "Um... ok."
Just think when it is a 106page report on the need to do an environmental assessment for 850,000$.... "Um... ok."
I'll bet $20 that it won't be accurate. Never trust the Government or politicians. That includes the almighty messiah.