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Microsoft Unveils "Elevate America"

nandemoari writes "In response to the current economic crisis, Microsoft Corp. has come out with a stimulus plan of their own. Their goal is to help a large group of individuals use their computers to land employment in ways other than to generate a compelling resume. The new online initiative, Elevate America, is set to equip close to 2 million people (over the next three years) with the skills needed to succeed in the field of technology."

325 comments

  1. Clearly, by Ixtl · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's a trap.

    1. Re:Clearly, by debrain · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's a trick. Get an axe.

    2. Re:Clearly, by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yep, they claim to be training Americans, but they're training them for jobs that are disappearing forever.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    3. Re:Clearly, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, they claim to be training Americans, but they're training them for jobs that are disappearing forever.

      Like "Windows Developer"?

    4. Re:Clearly, by rlp · · Score: 1

      Come one, it's clear Microsoft really cares about the American worker.

      --
      [Insert pithy quote here]
    5. Re:Clearly, by BPPG · · Score: 3, Funny
      --
      What's the value of information that you don't know?
    6. Re:Clearly, by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Read the 2nd link- Software Developer in general is about as useful in the United States as a textile worker.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    7. Re:Clearly, by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      On Slashdot I would say right around the time the temperature in hell dips below 0 degrees.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    8. Re:Clearly, by Aphoxema · · Score: 1

      When Microsoft *fingerquotes* WINS *fingerquotes*

      --
      "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
    9. Re:Clearly, by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 5, Funny

      ...right around the time the temperature in hell dips below 0 degrees.

      Kelvin

    10. Re:Clearly, by JonTurner · · Score: 0

      And then they ask for a refund.

      Ruthless!

    11. Re:Clearly, by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>It's a trick. Get an axe.

      No, no, the trick is on Microsoft. I learn the skills, I land the job, and then I spend a year surfing the net without doing any real work. I get back the $100,000 that they stole from taxpayers (via the stimulus bill) and spread it around to my neighbors. Like Robin Hood.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    12. Re:Clearly, by westlake · · Score: 1
      Yep, they claim to be training Americans, but they're training them for jobs that are disappearing forever.

      The service economy is labor intensive.

      Which means that it generates countless supporting documents and records, to be printed or filed.

      The clerical worker is not about to disappear.

      The geek whose livelihood depends on the expensive and now dispensable gadget - like the TiVO or the iPhone - seems to me rather more exposed.

    13. Re:Clearly, by molotovjester · · Score: 0

      How does one get the temperature below 0 degrees Kelvin?

    14. Re:Clearly, by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      The clerical worker moved offshore last recession. And the geek is next.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    15. Re:Clearly, by syousef · · Score: 1

      "Elevate America". Is the icon for the program a hangman's noose?

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    16. Re:Clearly, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      woosh

    17. Re:Clearly, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Kelvin is a unit in and of itself; there is no such thing as a "degree kelvin".

    18. Re:Clearly, by machine321 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I hear they had 1400 employees working on this.

    19. Re:Clearly, by againjj · · Score: 1

      It's a trap.

      When the Elevate America page contains things like "Learn about Microsoft Certifications", "Acquire new skills through Microsoft IT Academy", and "Learn modern Web design with Microsoft Expression software", methinks it may be, as in trying to trap people into an MS-only mindset.

      As an aside, this is the first site (outside of the /. Silverlight news items) that asked me to install Silverlight.

    20. Re:Clearly, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me see....

      lynx http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2009/feb09/02-22elevateamericapr.mspx
      Unresolved kernel trap(cpu 0): 0x300 Data access DSISR=0x40000000 DAR=0x0000006c PC=0x06d77510 MSR=0x00009030

      Yep.. looks like it.

    21. Re:Clearly, by rinoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Clearly you get paid to do this? Not the first time I've seen a post to "getthefacts" which resolves to http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver/compare/default.mspx ...which ironically uses a flash container!

      Anyway, the compare tabs are interesting. I don't disagree that solutions from MSFT work and work well but to pick nits about unix requiring maintenance and other blah blahs, it's all marketing speak. And good for ya.

      Free is never free. Just like free software to schools -- it's about your first hit.
       

    22. Re:Clearly, by home-electro.com · · Score: 2, Funny

      Nah...

      More likely a way to push adoption of the SilverLight. Those desperate unemployed will install anything on their PC for a glimpse of hope.

    23. Re:Clearly, by maxume · · Score: 1

      By the logic of forever, it should never have been possible for the job to move in the first place. Or exist.

      Now, where did I leave that buggy whip.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    24. Re:Clearly, by davester666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is just great. 'Free' training on how to use Microsoft products.

      First, I would find online training on how to use the Internet, well, kinda bizarre, as you need to know how to use the Internet to access the online training.

      Second, free training on how to use Microsoft-specific technology, at a time when arguably, more companies are moving away from being Microsoft-only shops, primarily for reasons of cost, only really helps Microsoft (and I guess the people who know stuff other than MS products), because it just increases the number of works with skills companies are less likely to want and/or need.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    25. Re:Clearly, by Draek · · Score: 4, Informative

      You make something really, *really* hot. It's fairly interesting, see here.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    26. Re:Clearly, by peater · · Score: 1

      It's a trap.

      No it isn't. They are offering free Ubuntu downloads. They are serious this time!

    27. Re:Clearly, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've heard it was over 9000 workers ...

    28. Re:Clearly, by Petersson · · Score: 1

      How does one get the temperature below 0 degrees Kelvin?
      Only by means of imaginary Brownian motion...

      --
      I'm not insane. My mother had me tested.
    29. Re:Clearly, by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      Not sure about that, we say degrees Farenheit/Celsius so it would seem an appropriate noun to use with Kelvin too.

    30. Re:Clearly, by andreiv · · Score: 2, Informative

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin Until the 13th General Conference on Weights and Measures (CGPM) in 1967-1968, the unit kelvin was called a "degree", the same as with the other temperature scales at the time. It was distinguished from the other scales with either the adjective suffix "Kelvin" ("degree Kelvin") or with "absolute" ("degree absolute") [...] The 13th CGPM changed the name to simply "kelvin" (symbol K).[2] The omission of "degree" indicates that it is not relative to an arbitrary reference point such as the Celsius and Fahrenheit scales, but rather an absolute unit of measure which can be manipulated algebraically (e.g. multiply by two to indicate twice the amount of "mean energy" available among elementary degrees of freedom of the system).

    31. Re:Clearly, by russotto · · Score: 1

      Kelvin is a unit in and of itself; there is no such thing as a "degree kelvin".

      It's not the current standard nomenclature, but it's a historically correct name still in common use outside formal papers.

    32. Re:Clearly, by JoCat · · Score: 4, Funny

      HAHA! God forgot to check for integer overflows!

    33. Re:Clearly, by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      "Driving Microsoft's Growth by Innovating From India". My grandfather told me it's good to know where you came from, it helps you to understand where you're going.

  2. So... by Jonah+Bomber · · Score: 1

    They'll teach people to groom themselves to look nice and then quit after 20 minutes on the job?

    1. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Or turn blue and spit out gobs of garbage

    2. Re:So... by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      Like a smurf on a bender?

  3. That's great... by qoncept · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's great, but aren't there already more people equipped with computer skills than the market needs? America doesn't need more job-qualified people (at least, that's not the big problem), it needs jobs to put those people in to.

    --
    Whale
    1. Re:That's great... by erroneus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      SHHHH!!! You are going to mess up their plans! They are very large users of the H1-B visa program and they would like to justify their continued [ab]use of the program! After all, the firing of thousands in the US while claiming the are needs to expand the H1-B program in today's situation is a pretty questionable move on the surface. Now they have to do something to appease congress and fast!

    2. Re:That's great... by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Maybe they're training them to Move to Brazil or India.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    3. Re:That's great... by edittard · · Score: 1

      You mean teaching them to speak Portuguese or English?

      --
      At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
    4. Re:That's great... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, no, there are not more people with computer skills than the market needs. Yet, anyway. Unless by "computer skills" you are counting the ability to send an email or fill in a pre-made Excel spreadsheet.

      There is still high demand for people with REAL computer skills: programmers, back-end Web Developers, and good front-end Web Developers, for that matter. Not to mention the hardware end of things (although I am not necessarily referring to the "classical" IT position).

      And for the latest-and-greatest software tech, like Ruby and Python (and I will reluctantly include .NET, just because)??? The demand is still very high.

    5. Re:That's great... by jdeisenberg · · Score: 1

      That's great, but aren't there already more people equipped with computer skills than the market needs?

      You'd be surprised. I'm teaching at a community college, and I figured that the students, especially the younger ones, would know how to do word processing. I was wrong. The idea of headers and footers are a novel concept to many of them, and the difference between "Save" and "Save as..." eludes others.

      ...it needs jobs to put those people in to.

      +1

    6. Re:That's great... by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      In economics labour is considered scarce, in general. Sure, the unemployment rate may be alarming and suggests otherwise, but if you've ever been on the hiring side and had to sift through applications and interview person after person you'll find that finding qualified people is quite difficult. Sometimes the company's expectations may be unreasonable, and they'll have to offer higher wages, perks and/or expect fewer hours. But the point is that there is never a surplus of people who are "right for the job". This speaks just as much to education as it does to the company's high expectations.

      This is why in industries that see a surplus of labour are usually in unskilled areas. Janitors, burger flippers etc.

      Education always increases the supply of labour and thus the amount of production. Milton Friedman, who was against almost any kind of government intervention or control, favoured government-mandated education (not to be confused with government-controlled, ie: public, education) because of this. He called it the "neighbourhood effect", the idea being that you benefit indirectly from your neighbhour being educated.

    7. Re:That's great... by westlake · · Score: 1
      That's great, but aren't there already more people equipped with computer skills than the market needs?

      That depends on what you mean by computer skills.

      Take a look at the fine print in the help wanted adds. Count how many employers expect you to be productive when working with MS Office.

      You can move higher up the food chain and still see adds like this:

      Contract Administrator. Minimum 5 years experience. Must have extensive computer skills with speed and accuracy in MS Word, Excel, Access and Outlook. Experience with MS Project or SureTrack is a plus. - Buffalo [NY] News, Feb 22]

    8. Re:That's great... by IgLou · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Wait... IIRC isn't this phrase:

      They are very large users of the H1-B visa program

      Supposed to say this?

      They are the largest user of the H1-B visa program

      I'm being cheeky about it. But, I remember when they opened the office here in Vancouver how excited everyone was and then no one was being hired here but there was a lot of people coming in from abroad to work here. The problem is on paper it always looks better to move things offshore because the "operating effeciencies" but look what happens when things are moved, poorer quality, poorer service and no one cares. I'm inclined to blame the "Walmart/everything's disposable and cheaper to replace mentality".

      --

      Oops, how did this get here?
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    9. Re:That's great... by hydromike2 · · Score: 0

      they will make jobs by the fact that they need people to train the new people people, duh!

    10. Re:That's great... by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Amen. This was confirmed in a Slashdot discussion a month or so ago when a poster said they once recruited for Microsoft. He said that the H-1B program essentially allowed Microsoft to find a larger pool of candidates fitting MS's exacting standards.

      I then said something like, "Do you know the H-1B program was sold to the American people as a tool to solve an alleged "shortage" of technical workers, and not a tool to replace or bypass "C" citizens for "A" guest workers?"

      His reply was that he really didn't follow the politics of it, only that the H-1B was effective in expanding MS's choice. This is consistent with other info I gathered on the issue.

      There is no "shortage", only a desire to be picky for less.
         

    11. Re:That's great... by moderatorrater · · Score: 1

      There is no "shortage", only a desire to be picky for less.

      From what you've said, he wasn't talking about a discount, he was merely talking about quality, and anyone who has half a brain can tell you that good programmers are hard to find. Are you saying that terrible American programmers deserve the job over great foreign programmers because they're American?

    12. Re:That's great... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I doubt greatly that English will be a reasonable choice for trade language into the next decade.

      You're prediction of the demise of English as the World trade language is quite premature.

      After all, the World speaks English not because of currency, but because of music and movies.

      When the next Batman movie and T-Pain record come out in Farsi, then you can start talking about the "Death of English". And dubbing doesn't count. I speak Italian, but watching The Simpsons in la Lingua just isn't as good.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    13. Re:That's great... by Chibi+Merrow · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's exactly what he's saying, and that's pretty much exactly what I see 95% of the opponents of the H1-B Visa system saying... Meanwhile my old classmates get sent back home to make peanuts doing significantly better work than I do.

      --
      Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
      Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
    14. Re:That's great... by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      It's a shortage of qualified workers, not a shortage of workers. It is absolutely a tool to bypass "C" citizens for "A" guest workers. In some cases the "C" citizens would be hired and we'd all be poorer for it; in other cases the "C" citizens just would not be hired.

      Absolutely citizen in America is at LEAST an "F" citizen for technical work. Doesn't mean anybody would ever, ever hire them, ever.

      There is a shortage which is the same thing as being picky. As for "for less", you can make that argument, but you didn't make it here. As an H1B who put down just under 90K on his tax return on my first year out of school in a city of moderately above-US-average cost of living, I kind of doubt that my employer is really getting a huge deal on me (especially considering how much I cost them in moving expenses and in all the lawyer work to make the visa happen).

      I'm sure there are cases of H-1B fraud. Maybe we should crack down on those.

    15. Re:That's great... by erroneus · · Score: 1

      In a word? YES!

      That is unless we don't care about the nation in which Microsoft and its top executives live or the customers it primarily serves, the damage to the nation practices like these cause...

      Keeping U.S.Americans employed is good for Microsoft and the nation it otherwise takes complete advantage of by not paying a dime in taxes and sheltering its profits in Ireland and all that. We are having more than a simple global economic meltdown. A lot of issues with our economy are being addressed... things that wouldn't see the light of day under pro-business neo-con rule previously. Issues like trade deficits, the brain drain of the U.S. and a host of other issues that have been steadily weakening the U.S. position in the world.

      Of course all of this is a moot point if we would just go ahead and haul out the "New World Order" we've all been waiting for.

    16. Re:That's great... by DragonWriter · · Score: 2, Informative

      You mean like Slumdog Millionaire, which just won eight Oscars and is partially in Farsi?

      Slumdog Millionaire is, at least according to all the sources I've seen, in English and Hindi, which are the two languages "of the Union" in the Republic of India. If it had been set in, e.g., Iran or Afghanistan, it might have been in Farsi.

    17. Re:That's great... by crossconnects · · Score: 2, Informative

      the 2 languages with the highest use are English and Chinese. but Chinese is primarily used in one country, but English is the primary language of several countries on six continents. the demise of English is possible, but predicting it is, at the very least, premature.

      --
      no big sig
    18. Re:That's great... by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Farsi, Hindi, whatever.

      Not English.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    19. Re:That's great... by mysticgoat · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I doubt greatly that English will be a reasonable choice for trade language into the next decade.

      No, I think English will be the common language for most of this century at least. Although the English that is commonly used ten years from now may be as foreign to our ears as the English of Shakespeare. English is evolving faster than it ever has before.

      For over a decade, there have been more people who have learned English as a second language (ESL) than there are native speakers of English. At this point in time, there may be more ESL speakers than sum of all the native speakers of English who ever lived. If we ar not at that point yet, we soon will be.

      We are also very close to the point where more communication in English is being done between ESL speakers than is being done between a native speaker of English and an ESL speaker. It is common in FOSS projects to find a Finn, a Brazilian, and a Japanese person using English in their correspondence while they fix a bug or develop a feature.

      Would someone who knows how to do it propose a Slashdot poll for me? Something like this:

      1. My native and only human language is English (don't count programming languages)
      2. My native language is English and I am fluent in one or more other languages
      3. My native language is not English, but outside of my family and friends, I use English for most of my communications
      4. My native language is not English, but I use English for most of my internet communications
      5. I read Slashdot in some other language than English (Babblefish is my friend)
      6. I only talk to Cowboy Neal because, well, he's The Cowboy Neal

      It would be neat to see this done every couple of years, see what the trend is.

    20. Re:That's great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The previous lingua franca was Latin. It survived the "extinction" of its native speakers. I believe English will be around for a long time after the economic influence of the USA wanes. The catholic church still uses Latin, and English is a bit entrenched in the IT sector.

    21. Re:That's great... by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      English won't die out because it's so fluid.

      Unlike French which is defended religiously English has no problem assimilating foreign languages.

      If Chinese starts becoming popular we'll just start assimilating chinese words.

    22. Re:That's great... by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Oh, that's simple.. the thousands filed "weren't qualified"

    23. Re:That's great... by shawb · · Score: 3, Informative

      To extend your argument, "Chinese" is not really a language. The people of China speak several different non-mutually intelligible variants. Linguistically these are more separate languages than dialects, although they are often lumped under "Chinese" for cultural and political reasons. For comparison, the linked article states that there are 836 Million speakers of Mandarin Chinese, the most common "dialect," while the number of English speakers is estimated between . To be fair, I do not know if the numbers for Mandarin only include native speakers or also includes those who speak Mandarin as an additional language.

      Another point pushing for English to be a dominant world language is the Internet... it was first developed in English speaking countries, and I would hazard a guess that most computer software is written using English. Written in English both as in the most common programming languages use English commands, and the code, comments and documentation are written in English. Being the "native" language of computing could do almost for pushing English as a dominant world language as simply having a large speaking base.

      I personally think it would be more likely for a patois of Chinese (mostly Mandarin,) English and other languages to develop than for Mandarin to take over as the sole language of trade and international relations.

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    24. Re:That's great... by onionlee · · Score: 1

      LIES! there are only 2.4 million people who know how to use a computer! http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/certified.mspx

    25. Re:That's great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Very high demand" would mean that these jobs are offering $100k to start. If they are it may be time for me to buy or steal some "REAL computer skills".

    26. Re:That's great... by xero314 · · Score: 1

      ...back-end Web Developers...

      Oxymoron.

      One can't be a back-end Web Developer. You are either a back-end developer or a web developer. Though I think what you are actually trying to get at is a middle-ware developer, and yes the world is very short of good ones. The again when was the last time a company actually wanted a good programmer (by what ever name or title)?

      And for the latest-and-greatest software tech...

      Yes, the world is short on D programmers, but then again so is demand.

    27. Re:That's great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "personally think it would be more likely for a patois of Chinese (mostly Mandarin,) English and other languages to develop than for Mandarin to take over as the sole language of trade and international relations."

      Looks like Joss was right. Firefly anyone? :)

    28. Re:That's great... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      It's a shortage of qualified workers, not a shortage of workers. It is absolutely a tool to bypass "C" citizens for "A" guest workers.

      That is not the stated (legislative) purpose of the H-1B program. It would have far less support if more knew what was *really* going on. It's misrepresentations like this that give lobbyists a bad name.
               

    29. Re:That's great... by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      Cityspeak here we come!

    30. Re:That's great... by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      Bladerunner had Cityspeak long before Firefly. ;)

    31. Re:That's great... by Thinboy00 · · Score: 1

      Well DUH it's going to have some Hindi (not Farsi) in it: it's set in India!

      --
      $ make available
    32. Re:That's great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's been said here before, I know, but most of the people I see entering the IT admin market are the equivalent of paper MCSEs, just like the late 90s. Only now it's two year associate degrees, which are virtually guaranteed to anyone willing to take out the loans and suffer through the classes, no passion or aptitude required.

    33. Re:That's great... by megaditto · · Score: 1

      It would have far less support if more knew what was *really* going on.

      Are you sure? Most people I know would prefer these "smart" foreigners working here, paying taxes, creating jobs, helping us compete. Brain drain has served us well. Hell, if anything, we should be demanding mandatory green cards instead of H1b Visas... make it easier to get in but harder to get out somehow.

      Sadly, the only people speaking out on this issue are the misguided folks. Pretty much the same folks speaking out on Ron Paul, organic coffee, global warming, the H2O car fuel thingie, etc.

      --
      Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
    34. Re:That's great... by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      You left out some variations, one of the important ones being
      7. My native language is not English but I am fluent in it and one or more other languages

      There are quite a lot of (tech and non-tech) people using multiple languages everyday. Still, English will probably remain the most accepted internationally used language, since it's a good common divisor: it's relatively easy to learn and it's fairly easily accessible for everyone.

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    35. Re:That's great... by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      And for the latest-and-greatest software tech, like Ruby and Python

      I always feel the greatest urge to eat my degrees when I hear any language being called "software tech" and the likes.

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    36. Re:That's great... by cornjones · · Score: 1

      I second that poll. that would be very interesting.

    37. Re:That's great... by PMBjornerud · · Score: 1

      Would someone who knows how to do it propose a Slashdot poll for me? Something like this:

      1. My native and only human language is English (don't count programming languages)
      2. My native language is English and I am fluent in one or more other languages
      3. My native language is not English, but outside of my family and friends, I use English for most of my communications
      4. My native language is not English, but I use English for most of my internet communications
      5. I read Slashdot in some other language than English (Babblefish is my friend)
      6. I only talk to Cowboy Neal because, well, he's The Cowboy Neal

      It would be neat to see this done every couple of years, see what the trend is.

      Ok, I'll copy-paste it into
      http://polls.slashdot.org/submit.pl

      Anyone else, please do NOT post this poll. The editors have probably received a few hundred in addition to mine ;)

      --
      I lost my sig.
    38. Re:That's great... by houghi · · Score: 1

      Not only that. They will not create any jobs. The job market is a fixed number at any point in time. Say there are 100.000.000 jobs. Because of this there will still be 100.000.000 jobs.

      That is the same reason I hate things they do in Belgium to get older people to work, younger people, minorities and what not. If those get a job, the job will be taken away from somebody else.

      Look on a smaller scale. A company needs 100 FTE. That is their need and they will not hire 101, nor will they hire 99. (If they say they need 100 and only have 90 working harder, then their need is 90, not 100)

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    39. Re:That's great... by houghi · · Score: 1

      Also English is a second language for many, many people. I can use it to speak to a Chines, Brazilian and French person if they have it as a second or third language as well.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    40. Re:That's great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In brasil the speak portugese, and in india it's english. Sort of. I think you'll find it's china where they speak chinese.

    41. Re:That's great... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The job market is a fixed number at any point in time.

      A number of economists, starting with Keynes, think that's bollocks.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    42. Re:That's great... by Zarel · · Score: 1

      To extend your argument, "Chinese" is not really a language. The people of China speak several different non-mutually intelligible variants. Linguistically these are more separate languages than dialects, although they are often lumped under "Chinese" for cultural and political reasons.

      No, they are often lumped together because they are only slightly more separate than dialects. Sure, they're not mutually intelligible, but neither are English and Pig Latin. In particular, they're written effectively exactly the same way (barring differences in dialects), so they're even closer to each other than Pig Latin is to English (again, barring dialectical differences).

      For example:

      (/. doesn't allow Unicode, nor does it allow HTML entities for Chinese characters, so I can't insert Chinese characters. Mouse over these links and some browsers [Firefox] will show you the character, though)

      [long] can be pronounced either 'chang2' (meaning "long") or 'zhang3' (meaning "grow") in Mandarin.
      [long] can be pronounced either 'coeng4' (meaning "long") or 'zoeng2' (meaning "grow") in Cantonese.

      [without] is pronounced 'fei1' (meaning "without") in Mandarin
      [without] is pronounced 'fei1' (meaning "without") in Cantonese

      [fly] is pronounced 'fei1' (meaning "fly") in Mandarin
      [fly] is pronounced 'fei1' (meaning "fly") in Cantonese

      [quick] is pronounced 'kuai4' (meaning "quick") in Mandarin
      [quick] is pronounced 'faai3' (meaning "quick") in Cantonese

      [piece] is pronounced 'kuai4' (meaning "piece") in Mandarin
      [piece] is pronounced 'faai3' (meaning "piece") in Cantonese

      (In other words, homophones in Mandarin are homophones in Cantonese; homographs in Mandarin are homographs in Cantonese.)

      You can't look at these and tell me these "variants" aren't as close to each other as most dialects are.

      --
      Want a high quality FOSS RTS game? Try Warzone 2100!
    43. Re:That's great... by AlexBirch · · Score: 1

      7. My native language is not English but I am fluent in it and one or more other languages
      Can you give me a use case where someone isn't fluent in their native language?
      I totally understand forgetting some words here and there, when I returned to the USA, I forgot the English word for bedsheets.

    44. Re:That's great... by Nycran · · Score: 1

      The Queen's English was good enough for Jesus Christ and it's good enough for me.

    45. Re:That's great... by russotto · · Score: 1

      _Slumdog Millionaire_, the version which won the Oscars, which apparently you haven't seen, is mostly in English. The writer was from the UK, the director was from the UK, and the novel it was based on was in English. I don't know which of the Indian languages the main character spoke; Wikipedia suggests it should have been a local patois. In any case, it was subtitled in English.

    46. Re:That's great... by cepayne · · Score: 1

      Aren't the new H1-B's are arriving soon? The will possibly need skills training.

    47. Re:That's great... by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      When the next Batman movie and T-Pain record come out in Farsi, then you can start talking about the "Death of English". And dubbing doesn't count. I speak Italian, but watching The Simpsons in la Lingua just isn't as good.
       
      They already come out in Hindu- Bollywood exceeds Hollywood in box office sales already!

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    48. Re:That's great... by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      To a large extent though, that's due to historical economic dominance. What happens when it is China, not America or Europe, that is economically dominant?
       
      How many of the Great Kahn's Subjagate failed to learn rudimentary trade Mongolian the last time that area of the world was dominant?

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    49. Re:That's great... by organized · · Score: 1

      America ... needs jobs to put those people in to.

      Rather than finding work for people with computer skills, how about finding problems that need to be solved and seeing which require computer skills and hiring those people.

    50. Re:That's great... by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      MOD PARENT UP. I had a fundamentalist Christian girlfriend once who thought that the only valid version of the Bible was the King James version- revealed truth handed to King James on a cloud. She utterly refused to believe any of my more esoteric theological arguments based on Latin, Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew.....

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    51. Re:That's great... by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Mumbai has multiple language groups, including Farsi.

      Maybe you should watch Slumdog Millionaire or realize how many many many languages there are in the Subcontinent of India.

      Then we'll talk.

      (for the record I speak neither Hindu nor Farsi and have no idea which one someone is saying, but since it's a Muslim slum they start in, for all I know there was some Farsi)

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    52. Re:That's great... by agnosticnixie · · Score: 1

      Historical political dominance - I'd suspect most, the Raj, unlike the Khanate, had the unfortunate luck to live at a time when universal elementary education in a "national" language (aka, the language the ruling elite speaks) had taken hold.

    53. Re:That's great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Horseshit. Language never has and never will evolve fast enough for a decade to change things as far as Shakespeare to us. There will always be forces of conservatism preventing rapid change from running wild. The simple fact that older people adapt more slowly to altering their speech patterns and you whippersnappers, much as it may gall you to admit it, you still need to be able to communicate with people who are over 30.

    54. Re:That's great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I personally think it would be more likely for a patois of Chinese (mostly Mandarin,) English and other languages to develop than for Mandarin to take over as the sole language of trade and international relations.

      Gorram right!

    55. Re:That's great... by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      Farsi, Hindi, whatever.

      On behalf of the rest of the world, fuck you.

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    56. Re:That's great... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      This sounds like it's turning into a left-wing versus right-wing economic viewpoint battle. I don't wish to start these age-old arguments up again, only to say I disagree with you.

    57. Re:That's great... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Oxymoron. One can't be a back-end Web Developer. You are either a back-end developer or a web developer. Though I think what you are actually trying to get at is a middle-ware developer, and yes the world is very short of good ones. Then again when was the last time a company actually wanted a good programmer (by what ever name or title)?"

      Then I guess I don't exist... because I have been doing it for years. No, I didn't mean midddle-ware.

      I will be more precise: by back-end I meant server-side, and by front-end I meant client-side (including graphic design). Not everybody does both equally well; some people are better at the server side of the equation, and some people are better at the client side. For example, our company employed a Graphic Designer, who couldn't write a script if his life depended on it. But he was still involved in Web Development. Both front and back end (in the context I was using them) are Web Development. Most "Web 2.0" sites would not function without a back-end (ajax functions, database interface, other functionality) and a front-end (HTML, JavaScript, graphics, layout). But that does not mean that the same people always build both.

      I happen to have a degree in Web Development, and it includes both server-side and client-side technologies, from setting up a Web server to dealing with settings in a browser.

      Our company wanted good programmers, and was willing to pay darned good money for us. And I have been seeing ads all over the place. General Dynamics even has an ad out now for a Ruby programmer... as long as you are willing to take a polygraph test.

    58. Re:That's great... by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      So, Mr. Superior, how many languages from China do you speak ...

      Seriously, I learned five languages growing up, expecting me to learn more than 300 from India when I don't even live there is fairly unrealistic.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    59. Re:That's great... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're prediction of the demise of English as the World trade language is quite premature.

      I think English died a little right there.

    60. Re:That's great... by mahadiga · · Score: 1

      They are very large users of the H1-B visa program and they would like to justify their continued [ab]use of the program!

      Analogy

      • H1B workers = Closed source software
      • Native workers = Open source software
      --
      I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
  4. Why not "Hire America"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Microsoft on hiring American Workers: great for other people!

  5. Come on.... by panoptical2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Microsoft is just grabbing the opportunity to train more devs and IT in advanced Microsoft products. After all, this is what ensures that companies use these products; that way, the companies don't have to pay for training.

    They also use this tactic with student/academia discounts, also.... (MSDNAA, anyone?)

    1. Re:Come on.... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
      Hey, don't knock MSDNAA. After I gave my mother my Windows machine and switched to OS X and FreeBSD, I realised I needed a Windows license to play some of my old games. MSDNAA provided me with an XP license, which I squeezed into a small partition on my ThinkPad.

      WINE has now got to the state where it supports the features that were in Windows last time I bought a Windows-only game, but the XP license was useful for a few years.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    2. Re:Come on.... by Metasquares · · Score: 1

      They were even giving away Visual Studio 2008 for free to students under that Dreamspark program a while ago. Not sure if they're still doing that.

    3. Re:Come on.... by fudoniten · · Score: 1

      Well, as Balmer has been known to say, DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS...


      (And now a little something to get through the filter...c'mon, it's just not funny in lower-case.)

    4. Re:Come on.... by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      They are. Server 2003 and Server 2008, too.

      It's actually a pretty nice program. For some tasks, .NET is nice to work with, and a free copy of the full version of VS2008 is pretty handy. (I'd rather they fix ASP.NET first, but that's never going to happen.)

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    5. Re:Come on.... by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Microsoft is just grabbing the opportunity to train more devs and IT in advanced Microsoft products.

      Yeah, my first thought when I read the summary was, "So Microsoft is teaching 'the skills needed to succeed in the field of technology,' huh? Does that include Linux administration?" Because seriously, that's a pretty important skill.

      No, I'm not just being snarky or karma whoring. That's a really useful skill.

    6. Re:Come on.... by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      Thanks to MSDNAA, I run Windows XP and 2K in virtual box on my iMac. Strictly for educational purposes, of course!

      (I graduated last century, but took an employer-paid graduate-level DB class last year. The professor never once recommended (or even mentioned) SQL Server)

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    7. Re:Come on.... by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      of course they are. The catch, of course, is that once you graduate you don't get to keep the tools. At that point, you expect to walk into a job that has purchased them, or you purchase them yourself.

      Pretty profitable, this philanthropy lark!

    8. Re:Come on.... by earnest+murderer · · Score: 1

      Well teaching would be something. But after looking over their site most of their "teaching" is getting windows boxes in front of people in developing nations.

      I could not find a resource for any average Joe interested in learning a skill, or a needy charitable organization. We (or 501c3 which serves a huge community) are pretty much limited to our once a year trip through the techsoup line. If we need to train someone to actually do something other than re-install windows we are out of luck (no e-learning for you!).

      I don't fault Microsoft for that, it's their business if they want to sell server products for a few dollars to org's that can't afford the talent to put them to use. But this whole campaign looks like a lot of hand waving for services that are "technically" available, but on a practical level aren't of any use.

      Big PR, little expense.

      --
      Platform advocacy is like choosing a favorite severely developmentally disabled child.
    9. Re:Come on.... by msclrhd · · Score: 1

      Didn't you know that ASP.NET is a dead MS tech, just like Windows Forms, GDI+, COM, ATL, MFC, the Win32 API and any other "new" technology released in the previous version of the operating system/tools.

      1. Release a brand new ultra-cool GDI+ framework.
      2. Place it in maintenance mode after version 1.
      3. Developers finally catch up to and start using the technology.
      4. ...
      5. Profit??? (But who profits here?)

      How many people are stuck on WinForms and ASP.NET when they should be using WPF/Silverlight? What will MS release when people start using these? Azure?

    10. Re:Come on.... by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      It is partly the Microsoft strategy of flooding the market with millions of part-time and unprofessional "developers" that is responsible for the generally low quality of many third party apps and even drivers on the Windows platform. Ironically, this is also a source of great consternation for Microsoft because people blame them when third party apps or drivers bring Windows crashing down or gum up the works with inefficient and resource hogging code. IMHO, Microsoft and the Windows platform would be much better served by promoting best practices and good software design from the start, even if it means less "developers" are unleashed upon the unsuspecting public, instead of hyping the "make an app with no code in 5 minutes with Visual Studio" and then hoping that those few who make it beyond the novice stage eventually become interested enough in the "right way" to do things to dive into MSDN and the Patterns and Practices materials. One is reminded of that ad for "The Ladders" where a large number of ordinary people jump onto a tennis court during a professional match, hitting tennis balls with brief cases and their bare hands, while the two professional players survey the scene with bemused looks on their faces.

    11. Re:Come on.... by Bill+Dog · · Score: 1

      The catch, of course, is that once you graduate you don't get to keep the tools.

      Please define "don't get to keep". Do the tools for example require annual reactivation via the Dreamwhatever program or they stop working or something?

      --
      Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
    12. Re:Come on.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ballmer's a fat monkey and Stallman's a bearded fag, hee hee, hah hah. I hope a jock gives you a wedgie in school tomorrow.

    13. Re:Come on.... by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      "dont get to keep" according to the terms of the licence (and you're not a pirate are you? :) ). In any case, your employer/you will be purchasing upgrades so its never a totally free option. Its the teaser that keeps you in the fold.

    14. Re:Come on.... by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 1

      Silverlight's supposed to work with ASP.NET (ASP.NET queueing and serving Silverlight, etc.). ASP.NET is not a "dead MS tech".

      ASP.NET also is terrible, but I digress.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    15. Re:Come on.... by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

      That second line make me laugh :^D

      (Too true.)

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    16. Re:Come on.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The College of Technology at Purdue is at first glance almost embarrassingly Microsoft-centric. And yet, there are several courses on UNIX administration, and of course Linux, FreeBSD, etc. are used in many of the networking courses.

  6. It's a secret plan by iYk6 · · Score: 4, Funny

    As it is, the problem isn't a lack of qualified individuals, but rather a lack of jobs for them. On the face of it, this looks like a complete failure of an idea. But they have a secret. You see, they will teach people to use only Microsoft technologies, and if everything goes right, these people will be unemployable in an IT environment. When the number of qualified IT people is lowered to the number of jobs, success!

    1. Re:It's a secret plan by nschubach · · Score: 1

      No No... they pay to get a bunch of people Microsoft certified... make everyone in America certified. This way the jobs have so much competition that you could make more working at McDonalds and Microsoft can claim the lowest TCO of all the operating systems in the world.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    2. Re:It's a secret plan by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      That'd never happen - if I could make more at McD's, I would work there rather than do computer admin stuff. At least once you turn off the fryer and go home, it stays put - computer work tends to follow you home.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  7. Yes, it is what you think by Onaga · · Score: 5, Informative

    At first, I was going to post about not berating Microsoft blindly. Then I RTFA... They have basic courses for free online, but anything past that is an advertisement for MS certs.

  8. The special skill they want by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1
    MS needs people that can understand how to help foreigners fill out H1B Visas.

    No point in getting skilled up in regular skills if they're just going to replace you with cheaper emplyees later.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:The special skill they want by moosesocks · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you're going to be a xenophobe, you might as well come out and say it, rather than blaming all of our economic woes on foreigners.

      The number of H1B workers is a drop in the bucket in the context of the national economy.

      The number of H1-B visas that can be issued in a given year is limited to 65,000 by law.

      According to the Bureau of Labor and Statistics, the total size of the American workforce was approximately 153.7 million last month (with unemployment at a troubling 11.6 million).

      An H1B worker is typically limited to a 6-year stay, unless the worker is applying for permanent residency. Assuming that all 65,000 workers stay each year, we have 390,000 H1B workers in the country at the present (I'd guess the actual number is somewhat less than that).

      At the very worst, H1-Bs might represent 0.25% of the national workforce.

      Microsoft employs 3,517 H1-B workers (the 3rd most of any American firm), out of 89,809 total employees, or just about 4%. This number might be a little high, although 4 percent doesn't strike me as being particularly alarming.

      Microsoft's recent round of layoffs (the first in the company's history) let go about 5,000 workers. Although I suppose these could have largely been avoided by eliminating all of the H1-B workers, that still leaves 1,500 workers, and assumes that every single H1-B worker was worthless to the company (which is somewhat doubtful).

      To summarize: Stop complaining about the H1-B workers. Although it's not a good idea to begin hiring foreign workers during a recession, the current crop of H1-B workers is simply too small to be having any substantial effect on the economy.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    2. Re:The special skill they want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      That 4% must all be in my group.

    3. Re:The special skill they want by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      And yet you are spreading lies as well. Quoted in Full from your link....

      The current law limits to 65,000 the number of aliens who may be issued a visa or otherwise provided H-1B status. (The numerical limitation was temporarily raised to 195,000 in FY2001, FY2002 and FY2003.) In addition, excluded from the ceiling are all H-1B non-immigrants who work at (but not necessarily for) universities and non-profit research facilities. [4] This means that contractors working at, but not directly employed by the institution may be exempt from the cap. Free Trade Agreements allow a carve out from the numerical limit of 1,400 for Chilean nationals and 5,400 for Singapore nationals. Laws also exempt up to 20,000 foreign nationals holding a masterâ(TM)s or higher degree from U.S. universities from the cap on H-1B visas.

      The Department of Homeland Security approved about 132,000 H-1B visas in 2004 and 117,000 in 2005.[5]

      Visa renewals do not count towards the annual limits. Transfers among employers only count when changing jobs from an employer exempt from the limits (academia or research) to one that is not exempt.

    4. Re:The special skill they want by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      And yet you are spreading lies as well. Quoted in Full from your link....

      The current law limits to 65,000 the number of aliens who may be issued a visa or otherwise provided H-1B status. (The numerical limitation was temporarily raised to 195,000 in FY2001, FY2002 and FY2003.) In addition, excluded from the ceiling are all H-1B non-immigrants who work at (but not necessarily for) universities and non-profit research facilities. [4] This means that contractors working at, but not directly employed by the institution may be exempt from the cap. Free Trade Agreements allow a carve out from the numerical limit of 1,400 for Chilean nationals and 5,400 for Singapore nationals. Laws also exempt up to 20,000 foreign nationals holding a masterâ(TM)s or higher degree from U.S. universities from the cap on H-1B visas.

      The Department of Homeland Security approved about 132,000 H-1B visas in 2004 and 117,000 in 2005.[5]

      Visa renewals do not count towards the annual limits. Transfers among employers only count when changing jobs from an employer exempt from the limits (academia or research) to one that is not exempt.

      I'm ignoring the 2001-3 years, because they were temporarily applied when there was a (presumed) labor shortage. In any event, I tend to doubt that those exceptions will be reinstated or made permanent -- that's an argument for another day.

      Secondly, I believe that the 132,000 and 117,000 figures include renewals, and would be included in my 390,000 figure (which I guess might be a bit higher thanks to the extra workers brought in between '01 and '03)

      In any event, the elephant in the room is the 11.6 million unemployed workers (ie. those currently seeking work). Even if we raise the estimate, and assume that there are 500,000 Americans who can fill the job of every single H1-B worker presently in the US, 11 million individuals are still unemployed.

      That all said, there likely is a significant portion of H1-B workers whose experience/skillset cannot be matched by a domestic worker. Given that state governments are currently taking the "slash and burn" approach to university budgets, we're going to have to look somewhere to find skilled workers.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    5. Re:The special skill they want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're going to be a xenophobe, you might as well come out and say it, rather than blaming all of our economic woes on foreigners.

      The number of H1B workers is a drop in the bucket in the context of the national economy.

      The number of H1-B visas that can be issued in a given year is limited to 65,000 by law.

      According to the Bureau of Labor and Statistics, the total size of the American workforce was approximately 153.7 million last month (with unemployment at a troubling 11.6 million).

      An H1B worker is typically limited to a 6-year stay, unless the worker is applying for permanent residency. Assuming that all 65,000 workers stay each year, we have 390,000 H1B workers in the country at the present (I'd guess the actual number is somewhat less than that).

      At the very worst, H1-Bs might represent 0.25% of the national workforce.

      Microsoft employs 3,517 H1-B workers (the 3rd most of any American firm), out of 89,809 total employees, or just about 4%. This number might be a little high, although 4 percent doesn't strike me as being particularly alarming.

      Microsoft's recent round of layoffs (the first in the company's history) let go about 5,000 workers. Although I suppose these could have largely been avoided by eliminating all of the H1-B workers, that still leaves 1,500 workers, and assumes that every single H1-B worker was worthless to the company (which is somewhat doubtful).

      To summarize: Stop complaining about the H1-B workers. Although it's not a good idea to begin hiring foreign workers during a recession, the current crop of H1-B workers is simply too small to be having any substantial effect on the economy.

      Its easy to say "stop complaining". If I was 1 of the 3517 qualified workers that have lost there job due to offshoring practices . I would tell you to take your stats and stick them just 4% up your ASS. If a hundred companies were to stop offshoring their labor it would be a very substantial effect. These dooshes were always lobbing to get more H1-B's so you see, the net effect of their practices are a significant negative impact to the US economy.

    6. Re:The special skill they want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go to all the universities and look at the masters and PhD students in the engineering department. Those are the future H1-Bs. Can you find Americans to replace them all?

    7. Re:The special skill they want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. Such facts.

      The reality is that while H1B's represent a very minor portion (0.25%???), many companies use them to reduce their employment costs. They do not look at them as indispensable individuals.

      So what you are saying is that Microsoft has 3,517 people, and laid off 5,000 workers.

      I think what people are complaining about is that of those 5,000 workers, how many of them, regardless of being overerly qualified, were in a position to take over jobs of those 3,517 H1B workers?

      For example, the entire Aces Studio (Flight Simulator) team was laid off. Now, in theory with the law, every developer should have the right based on the layoff to go for a job currently held by an H1B and say "I am an american citizen, and I am qualified for your job", and the citizen should win.

      But, is this really the case? It should be. I'm not against anyone, but, I am for employing US Citizens over H1B.

    8. Re:The special skill they want by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      Although it's not a good idea to begin hiring foreign workers during a recession

      That line always has the implied hint that other countries on this planet don't ever hire foreign workforce, which they do, and a lot. Should the US eliminate H1B completely, that wouldn't even be felt, their number is so low (relatively speaking), although in certan fields their number is probably higher than others.

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    9. Re:The special skill they want by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      Although it's not a good idea to begin hiring foreign workers during a recession

      That line always has the implied hint that other countries on this planet don't ever hire foreign workforce, which they do, and a lot. Should the US eliminate H1B completely, that wouldn't even be felt, their number is so low (relatively speaking), although in certan fields their number is probably higher than others.

      I think you misunderstood my point:
      If you have too much of something (workers in this case), it's simply not prudent to import more of it. Foreign workers will be increasingly uncompetitive, as unemployed domestic workers become more desperate, and more willing to work for low wages.

      Of course, you're also correct -- the number of foreign workers in the US is tiny compared to most other nations. Sadly, the US is no longer a place that one typically immigrates to, or emigrates from.

      I grew up in the North Atlantic, and knew exactly one Canadian. That's just sad.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    10. Re:The special skill they want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By your calculations H1-B workers compose .25% of the national workforce but 4% of Microsoft's workforce. Then you say 4% isn't particularly alarming??? Am I crazy for reading this as "Microsoft hires H1-Bs at 16x the national average"? That is alarming to me.

    11. Re:The special skill they want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      H1-B is a *high-tech* visa targeted to high-tech companies. But the national average figures also include the low-tech companies.
      Therefore, the high-tech average will be higher than the national average.

      So yes, you are crazy.

    12. Re:The special skill they want by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      If you have too much of something (workers in this case), it's simply not prudent to import more of it.

      True, of course, to an extent. What I mean is there wouldn't be any point in bringing in workers if there's no work. But there is, just the allocation and/or selection process of the existing workforce pool is bogus, also there are quite a number of people who e.g. won't relocate, or won't further self-educate for another job, and so on. There are companies who probably think H1Bs are more flexible and less demanding in many areas, which is partially understandable, but such properties are not something which locals couldn't provide. I think the current situation in the whole industry will create a more flexible workforce in many areas and change the attitute of a lot of people, which will turn out to be a very good thing in the long run.

      the US is no longer a place that one typically immigrates to

      Well, probably holds true at least for the last decade. Yet, the current situation could also change this, since if people believe the US economy will come out faster from this than others, that could mean a renewed interest. Out of peculiar turn of events, I just got a green card, but for the moment I value my current job (not in the US) more than to try out my luck in the US. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how things will run out in the long term.

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
  9. Just what the world needs by stox · · Score: 1

    2 million more MCSE's.

    --
    "To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
    1. Re:Just what the world needs by dgatwood · · Score: 1, Funny

      "It's hard to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there's no cat there."

      Then what the heck is rubbing against my leg? Aaaaaaaaaaaah!

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    2. Re:Just what the world needs by mustafap · · Score: 1

      >Then what the heck is rubbing against my leg?

      Bill Gates

      --
      Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
    3. Re:Just what the world needs by sortius_nod · · Score: 2, Insightful

      2 million more arrogant pricks who don't know what they're doing.

      There, fixed that for you.

    4. Re:Just what the world needs by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      pour is not a synonym for pore.

      Homonyms are fun, kids!

    5. Re:Just what the world needs by chill · · Score: 4, Funny

      You don't think Minesweeper and Solitaire are going to play themselves, do you?

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    6. Re:Just what the world needs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      iirc there is a Solitaire game for Linux that does just that ;)

  10. do this first by blhack · · Score: 4, Funny

    Can step #1 be teaching everybody in my office that Caps lock is not the same as shift?
    Also that you need to turn on num-lock to use the numpad?

    Seriously...what ever happened to requiring basic computer skills to get an office job?

    --
    NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
    1. Re:do this first by SupremoMan · · Score: 1

      I would say rigorous interview process is to blame. It is more important to know how to get through interviews, lying or otherwise, than to have any actual knowledge.

    2. Re:do this first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This started happening at approximately the same time when 'computer skills' became synonymous with 'office suite skills'.

    3. Re:do this first by NewbieProgrammerMan · · Score: 1

      Can step #1 be teaching everybody in my office that Caps lock is not the same as shift?

      Wow, I knew that when all I had was a manual typewriter. Yes, the kind with the little mechanical hammers with type on them that thwacked the ribbon onto the paper. Kids these days....get your NumLock off my lawn!

      --
      [b.belong('us') for b in bases if b.owner() == 'you']
    4. Re:do this first by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      Seriously...what ever happened to requiring basic computer skills to get an office job?

      Very few of them ever approached technical knowledge in general and knowledge of computers in particular with any of the formalism or rigor required for competence or mastery during their formative years. Those few of us who did, mostly the geeks who now inhabit sites like Slashdot, used that knowledge to pursue a career in IT, software development, or hard science. The rest of the people learned enough to barely get by and called upon one of us whenever they got in over their heads (which is all to often if the market for computer support services is anything to go by). The generation which has "grown up digital" is only now beginning to enter the worst job market in decades after completing their undergraduate degrees and with few really marketable technical skills other than the ability to butcher the english language at rapid fire speed in SMS.

      As for what happened to basic computer skills courses, the high schools in this country have enough trouble turning out students who can read, write, and perform algebra at basic levels, never mind anything else. Many four year universities spend several months just bringing freshman students up to speed on subjects which they should have learned in high school. For a preview of coming attractions, check out Idiocracy

    5. Re:do this first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My gf types at about 80 wpm, but she uses the caps lock key to type in uppercase letters. She turns on capslock, hits the key, then turns off capslock. She does this very fast. I tried to break her of the habit to no avail.

  11. And they're getting jobs where? by Rhone · · Score: 2, Funny

    Will Microsoft also be relocating those 2 million people to India so they can actually find jobs with their new skills?

  12. its only MS Training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    i see no Cisco training, Apache, MySql, etc
    but i do see training on Server2008 (woopee do)

    this is just a fluff/feelgood PR initative, when really they want 2 millon mcse's/advocates/salespeople who only know about a single vendors product and are therefore ill equipped for the modern diverse IT industry.

    there is more to IT than MS and a Mcse

    1. Re:its only MS Training by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree 100%. Of course on the flip side, it would be nice for other vendors to jump on the bandwagon and start offering free training. Cisco and Oracle can start. Some *nix vendors would be welcome too, maybe NetApp and EMC. With some diversity in the education, it might be worthwhile.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    2. Re:its only MS Training by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Completely off-topic: am I the only one who has ever had the thought that companies selling products and then also selling training/certifications for use of those products is a weird conflict of interest?

      On one level, of course, it makes a lot of sense. Who better to provide training than those who make the product? On the other hand, how much of a motive do you have to make your product truly easy to use if you're also making tons of money selling training and certificates? If anything, it's all the more incentive to make your products confusing to laymen, and change things up every now and then so that people have to "stay current", even if the old way was perfectly fine.

      Yeah, I know, it's probably a paranoid thought. But it seems strange to me sometimes, that the incentive might be going the wrong way.

    3. Re:its only MS Training by grcumb · · Score: 1

      Completely off-topic: am I the only one who has ever had the thought that companies selling products and then also selling training/certifications for use of those products is a weird conflict of interest?

      It's not at all off-topic, and no, you're not the only one who writhes whenever some vendor announces their new certification scheme.

      No matter how 'neutrally' they dress it up, product-specific training is more about product sales than it is about education. Not only that, but cookie-cutter certs also degrade the value of real learning. Rather than teach the fundamentals of, say, networked systems, standards and principles, 'students' are given cookbook approaches that encourage the worst kinds of cargo cult behaviour.

      The only thing I'm thankful to the MCSE programme for is that it allowed me a quick way to identify which potential employers were worth even the cost of a stamp.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    4. Re:its only MS Training by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I had a boss once who used to pretty much ignore any resume that had the letters "MCSE" featured prominently. He said, "if that's the best thing they have to tell me, then it's not worth my trouble to read much beyond that."

    5. Re:its only MS Training by Monchanger · · Score: 1

      I think what's tripping up this train of thought is the idea of "easy to use". Microsoft Word, for example, fits this category nicely, and even doing the stuff taught in an "Advanced Word" courses is actually easy- at most I have to take a quick look at the manual.

      These training courses (or at least each of the four Microsoft software development courses I attended at the beginning of my career) are great for people who need hand-holding. From what I can guess, this means either folks who have trouble comprehending the manual (e.g. a technophobic secretary who can't figure out how to build a table of contents into a document, even though it's trivial once you're aware of Styles and Fields) or those too lazy to locate the information themselves (i.e. find "Table of Contents" in an alphabetically arranged index, turn or click to the indicated page, and read something shorter than this post).

      I don't find Microsoft products to be intentionally confusing. Poorly thought-out in many places- yup, sloppily implemented in many others- most certainly, inconsiderate of existing users' needs- for sure. But deliberately hard to use? No- I don't think many companies will stoop so low as that and risk losing sales on their primary revenue generator. The reason is stockholders don't take kindly to that, and Microsoft is driven by its shareholders, not by this despicable false claim of patriotism. I love bashing Microsoft as much as the next Slashdotter, but to be fair- they actually think they're doing right by consumers. Even the criminally heavy-handed business tactics are designed to spread what they believe is best for consumers. Microsoft needs to be committed to the corporate equivalent of an asylum, not prison.

    6. Re:its only MS Training by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I'm not talking about Microsoft Word particularly. I'm talking about Microsoft, Cisco, Oracle, EMC, and the like that make some fairly complex products, and just pointing out that reducing complexity can run contrary to their business interests.

  13. Succeed in the field of technology? by Tovok7 · · Score: 1

    The new online initiative, Elevate America, is set to equip close to 2 million people (over the next three years) with the skills needed to succeed in the field of technology.

    So they are not trained in using Microsoft products?

    1. Re:Succeed in the field of technology? by erroneus · · Score: 1

      I already have an award for Outstanding Achievement in the field of Excellence! Why would I need something less ambiguous?

  14. Nothing new here by Locke2005 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Nigerian "Princes" have been using their computers to generate income for themselves for years now...

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Nothing new here by dmomo · · Score: 1

      Generating income? This is income that is rightfully theirs. And you know what? They need our help. So let's take these Microsoft classes so we can get the basic computer skills necessary to help them transfer the funds out of their Human-Rights-Abusing nation.

  15. Lift America's Economy by 45mm · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... and install SilverLight!

  16. The only problems solved here is Microsoft's by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm glad that I'm not the only one who reads this as "brace yourself for 2 million more unemployed MSCE's to dilute the IT field within the next 3 years". Sorry for the cynicism, but I see this as Microsoft trying to raise a generation of tech users and admins who know nothing of the tech world beyond Windows.

    --
    I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    1. Re:The only problems solved here is Microsoft's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but I see this as Microsoft trying to raise a generation of tech users and admins who know nothing of the tech world beyond Windows.

      Excellent. Less competition for me.

    2. Re:The only problems solved here is Microsoft's by Monchanger · · Score: 1

      I see this as Microsoft trying to raise another generation of PHBs, tech users and admins who know nothing of the tech world beyond Windows.

      There. Fixed that for you.

    3. Re:The only problems solved here is Microsoft's by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

      Totally what I was thinking, though I'm definitely willing to help out people who want to learn the sorts of things that will actually get you a job / gig (i.e. open source languages and *nix skills).

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
  17. Discount Certifications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Seems like they're offering discount MS specific certifications, with a free retake if you fail. In short it seems like they're offering a whole load of taxdeductable services that relate to their own product lines, but with the PR and marketing machine that MS has behind them makes it look like they are actually helping America - good on them for trying.

    I wonder if IBM or Oracle will have a similar strategy to "elevate" America?.....

  18. So will these elevators be free? by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Cause I'm having a hard time justifying a $200 OS for my $300 laptop ... at least in the Real America that most of us live in.

    Oh, and no takebacks on the Elevation, like they did with the firings of their staff and the pay they "overpaid" ...

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:So will these elevators be free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cause I'm having a hard time justifying a $200 OS for my $300 laptop ... at least in the Real America that most of us live in.

      That's why the windows 7 'starter edition' should be made available in the states. Yes, the pricing is artificial, but if I want to do real work, there is always Ubuntu.

  19. Hey Microsoft! by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    Want to help more Americans become employed? How about you stop being such a vocal advocate for expanding H-1B visas?!?

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Hey Microsoft! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      10,000 of the H1B quota are either bachelors or masters students from US universities. Fewer and fewer americans are going for advanced degrees. Stopping h1b is the worst thing that can happen to US. H1Bs take up jobs in google, apple, ibm, MS, sun, cisco, etc etc. There are a *lot* of H1B visa holders working there getting payed the same as their counterparts.

      If you know of employers who are abusing this process, report them to USCIS. Stop crying about having to compete with the rest of the world.

  20. Oh, so they'll be teaching them... by llamalad · · Score: 3, Funny

    Oh, so they'll be teaching them how to manage systems running real operating systems like AIX, Solaris, *BSD, and various flavors of Linux. Neat.

  21. Good strategy for MS by RyanFenton · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is a good strategy for MS, much like what Apple had with school districts - teach as many people in ways that make them dependent on your proprietary technology as you can, and call it a public service.

    In my opinion, the underlying problem in this economy is thus: The rich portion of the populace owns about as much as is possible before the economy collapses. Our market is based on speculation and expectation setting - on growth of money making schemes. But what happens when the players looking to take more resources run out of easy resources to grab? Collapse.

    The poorer 3/4 of the country have spent about all they are going to spend, and have gone in about as deep a debt as is plasible. It no longer makes sense to lend more money, or leverage more resources in hopes of getting return from that process. The owning class already has already extracted as many resources as they easily can, and it would take death on the part of the poorest folks to free any more resources to grab.

    The only way left to continue the desired cycle and free up credit would be to take resources from the rich, and give it to folks who would actually spend those resources in the process of just living day to day, which would open up the credit markets again, increase demand for products, and so on.

    But we've seen what outrage occurs when that happens - the whole point of the market for the larger players is to extract more resources, not give money to the "undeserving!" So, we get schemes like those from Microsoft - push for further ownership of mindshare, and call it charity.

    Ryan Fenton

    1. Re:Good strategy for MS by yariv · · Score: 1

      The only way left to continue the desired cycle and free up credit would be to take resources from the rich, and give it to folks who would actually spend those resources in the process of just living day to day, which would open up the credit markets again, increase demand for products, and so on.

      The main economic reason for having a government (although regulation is also important). This is the simplest solution to one of the most fundamental problems of Capitalism. I must admit I never understood why US-citizens oppose (or so it seems) this idea.

    2. Re:Good strategy for MS by TheSync · · Score: 1

      The only way left to continue the desired cycle and free up credit would be to take resources from the rich

      The economy is not a zero-sum game. We create wealth everyday, through manufacturing (of the hardware and software variety) as well as sales (moving goods from places they are valued less to where they are valued more, enriching both sides of the voluntary exchange).

      We don't need more credit. We need more people obtaining the skills to generate wealth. Let's make more wealth, and get wealthier!

    3. Re:Good strategy for MS by RyanFenton · · Score: 1

      The problem is that the rich don't tend to spend their wealth. Instead, they invest it, and expect a sizable return, forever.

      Normally, this isn't a problem - it creates a credit system where the moderately wealthy who are trained can, as you say, create wealth.

      The problem occurs when the rich investor class has too much of the money. Suddenly, there are no investments with which to multiply their money. There are no people buying products, no businesses forming with investment. The only safe investments become basic necessities. The rich can create businesses, but the only ones in the position to buy are the fellow rich.

      You can only create wealth when there are people with resources interesting in buying. When only the rich have the most effective methods of multiplying money, thanks to the compounding effects interest, they tend to become the only ones with appreciable money over time when unchecked.

      Innovation and invention are powerful tools, but without the means to capitalize on them on one's own, they are lame. That includes an economy where few are able to comfortably afford to access your inventions. And it is FAR better to have hundreds of thousands (or more) able to afford $10 on a whim, than merely thousands able to afford $1000 on a whim, even if it seems like the same rough number in the end on its face.

      Ryan Fenton

    4. Re:Good strategy for MS by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

      Because those silly Republicans jump up onto the chair and shriek, "Eeek! It's socialism!" And mind you, they're the rich ones.

    5. Re:Good strategy for MS by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      The economy is not a zero-sum game.

      It is when you don't make anything useful.

      We create wealth everyday, through manufacturing (of the hardware and software variety

      How much of US economy is in this manufacturing, and how much if it is in:

      as well as sales (moving goods from places they are valued less to where they are valued more, enriching both sides of

      ...what is actually a zero-sum game because manufacturers compete for consumers?

      the voluntary exchange).

      Nothing in the economy is "voluntary".

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    6. Re:Good strategy for MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somebody gets it! Amazing. The income inequality in this country has been growing and growing and growing and has just blown up exponentially since the 80s but nobody wants to address it. How can the "elite" seriously justify getting paid $200k+ salaries when the average salary in this country isn't even $50k?! If we want to keep our economy going and get ourselves out of this recession we need to address this issue once and for all. These multi-million dollar bonuses and salaries that CEOs and VPs get at some companies are outrageous and can't possibly be justified, I don't care what you did. At some point we just need to say, "you have enough, now share that wealth with the rest of us and we can all make a brighter future." So you might not get that nice new 2010 Porshe, but I think you'll survive.

    7. Re:Good strategy for MS by burnin1965 · · Score: 1

      The only way left to continue the desired cycle and free up credit would be to take resources from the rich, and give it to folks who would actually spend those resources in the process of just living day to day, which would open up the credit markets again, increase demand for products, and so on.

      Interesting post Ryan. However, I disagree about the need to take resources from the rich or perhaps I look at it from a different perspective. The rich can keep what they have but the working class who are creating the wealth that flows predominantly into the pockets of a few need to have a more equitable portion of the wealth they help generate.

      By just about any economic measure the majority of the citizens in the United States have experienced a gradual decline in their share of the wealth generated by this country. This has resulted in a decrease in disposable household income which I believe individuals have attempted to make up for by utilizing credit.

      Sadly people have not been paying attention to their falling portion of the national wealth and were likely lulled into a false sense of security by the housing bubble. Unfortunately now that the bubble has burst the average citizen is getting two strikes for the outrageous household debt and the falling participation in the GDP of the nation. In some cases people get a third strike by losing their job.

    8. Re:Good strategy for MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blah blah military industial complex bla bla help help, I'm being repressed blah blah...

    9. Re:Good strategy for MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because those silly Republicans jump up onto the chair and shriek, "Eeek! It's socialism!" And mind you, they're the rich ones.

      Well no, the really rich members of the Republican party are a minority (but a larger minority than in the other parties). The majority of the "Eeek! It's socialism!" crowd are lower- to middle-class who have an unrealistic belief of the probability that they will eventually being wealthy themselves. Thus they don't want to "ruin" their hoped-for reward in the mean-while.

      I see this as unrealistic expectation because hardwork and determination will only get you so far (i.e. from proverty into a solid middle-class life-style). In contrast, multi-millionares (to say noting of billionares) generally don't get where they are without at least one or two lucky breaks along the way. Of course, those that are already wealthy don't have anything to gain (while possibily something to loss) by disillusioning their non-wealthy supporters.

    10. Re:Good strategy for MS by organized · · Score: 1

      The owning class already has already extracted as many resources as they easily can

      Not all wealth comes from resources extracted. (Extracted from where?). It is possible to create wealth from intangibles and services because of the value that paying people put to these items.

      It's a sad fact that ability is not distributed equally. Plus attitudes about work are inherited from parents and your local society, things you don't have control of.

    11. Re:Good strategy for MS by TheSync · · Score: 1

      "The economy is not a zero-sum game."

      It is when you don't make anything useful.

      US manufacturing production output was $1.8 trillion in 2007, the largest output of any country now or ever. Manufacturing in the US doesn't have too many jobs any more though because labor is being replaced with machines, and low-skill labor that can't be done by machines (such as sewing) is moving to poorer countries.

      Of course, OS X was "manufactured" in the US but doesn't show up in those numbers. And the design for my MacBook was "manufactured" in the US even if its physical implementation was manufactured outside the US. But without the service jobs of software development and system design, the MacBook would not exist.

      ..what is actually a zero-sum game because manufacturers compete for consumers?

      Sales is the process of voluntary exchange where one party has more utility for an item than another party, and money is exchanged to balance the transaction. This goes on everyday on EBay, where the utility for your wall pocket drops because you don't like it as much any more. Or because of the law of diminishing returns, everyone loves one bicycle, but if you manufacture a million of them, you would prefer to sell them instead of riding them.

      Competition does encourage producers to be as efficient as possible in their efforts of value added by manufacturing (which I am throwing information manufacturing into) and sales. This value add means that the economy as a whole is continuously growing wealth. We may sometimes overstate out wealth (as in the housing bubble burst), but the long term growth is global wealth increase.

      Nothing in the economy is "voluntary".

      So you are forced, against your will, to purchase a latte at Starbucks? Are you in North Korea?
       

    12. Re:Good strategy for MS by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      US manufacturing production output was $1.8 trillion in 2007, the largest output of any country now or ever.

      Yeah, including "manufacturing" of hamburgers, "manufacturing" companies that are completely outsourced, and, of course, the output of all this is taken in artificially inflated American prices.

      Of course, OS X was "manufactured" in the US but doesn't show up in those numbers. And the design for my MacBook was "manufactured" in the US even if its physical implementation was manufactured outside the US. But without the service jobs of software development and system design, the MacBook would not exist.

      This still doesn't make it "manufacturing", it's in part research and development, in part (larger part) artificial shoveling the money around.

      So you are forced, against your will, to purchase a latte at Starbucks?

      Of course. If I had a choice, I would prefer a place where I can get the same latte without paying.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    13. Re:Good strategy for MS by TheSync · · Score: 1

      "US manufacturing production output was $1.8 trillion in 2007, the largest output of any country now or ever."

      Yeah, including "manufacturing" of hamburgers, "manufacturing" companies that are completely outsourced, and, of course, the output of all this is taken in artificially inflated American prices.

      The $1.8 trillion does not apply to non-US manufacturing. If something was imported from foreign production ("outsourced") it is not included. The comparisons between past manufacturing is adjusted for inflation, and the comparisons with other countries are based on currency conversion at current levels.

      Here are the leading sectors of US manufacturing by value added, 2007:

      All durable goods: $921 billion, including subsectors:
      Computer & Electronic Products: $146 billion
      Fabricated Metal Products: $140 billion
      Machinery: $126 billion
      Motor Vehicles: $98 billion
      Other Transportation Equipment: $96 billion

      All non-durable goods: $694 billion, including subsectors:
      Chemical products: $249 billion
      Food manufacturing, food and beverage and tobacco products: $174 billion (there are your "hamburgers")
      Petroleum and coal products: $70 billion

      To compare, US professional, scientific, and technical services: $1 trillion, in the same neighborhood as durable manufacturing.

      BEA Data sources

    14. Re:Good strategy for MS by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      All durable goods: $921 billion, including subsectors:
      Computer & Electronic Products: $146 billion

      Overwhelming majority of this are resellers and outsourced companies.

      Fabricated Metal Products: $140 billion
      Machinery: $126 billion
      Motor Vehicles: $98 billion
      Other Transportation Equipment: $96 billion

      All non-durable goods: $694 billion, including subsectors:
      Chemical products: $249 billion
      Food manufacturing, food and beverage and tobacco products: $174 billion (there are your "hamburgers")

      Those are the only that actually left -- though many are importers and resellers.

      Petroleum and coal products: $70 billion

      That's not manufacturing, that's natural resources extraction.

      To compare, US professional, scientific, and technical services: $1 trillion, in the same neighborhood as durable manufacturing.

      How much of it is based on patent extortion under various trade agreements? How much is foreign research that is merely done under the banner of American companies?

      I would actually worry if cost of durable goods (that are consumed by everyone in the country) falls behind the cost of research and development (that is supposed to be mostly useful for aforementioned manufacturers). It means that either manufacturers (including foreign ones) can't pay for it, or not only production but also consumption left the country.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  22. Misleading introduction..! by bogaboga · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "...The new online initiative, Elevate America, is set to equip close to 2 million people (over the next three years) with the skills needed to succeed in the field of technology."

    This would have been better and on point:

    "...The new online initiative, Elevate America, is set to equip close to 2 million people (over the next three years) with the skills needed to succeed in using Microsoft technologies to perpetuate their proliferation while increasing dependence on such technologies at the same time."

    1. Re:Misleading introduction..! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So?

      I agree that Microsoft most likely are trying to increase the dependence on their software. I know, I know Microsoft is evil and all that but if Microsoft helps me to make ends meet by using and learning about their technology that's a good thing (for me at least). What do I care as long as my family can eat?

      The fact is that Microsoft products are installed on most computers and that's a pretty big marketplace. One way or another people will learn how to use their advanced products - especially if it's for free.

      I'm not praising Microsoft just pointing out that they have the biggest marketshare, they do have lots of money etc... it really makes sense for them to help people to lockin to their technology

  23. The "Field of technology"? by John+Jorsett · · Score: 1
    The new online initiative, Elevate America, is set to equip close to 2 million people (over the next three years) with the skills needed to succeed in the field of technology."

    That's what I'd call a broad curriculum.

  24. No Thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can buy my own copy of Teach Yourself Visual Basic in 21 days.

  25. Correction by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It should read, "... is set to equip close to 2 million people (over the next three years) with the skills needed to succeed in the field of Microsoft technology."

    1. Re:Correction by hannson · · Score: 1

      Well we can't expect them to pay for training in other vendors products do we?

  26. Oh hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh goddammit, figures I'd have to start grad school right before this started.

  27. Help 'elevate' America... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...because we can't get it up on our own.

  28. Linux administrators are on demand by mangu · · Score: 1

    aren't there already more people equipped with computer skills than the market needs?

    There surely seems to be too many MCSEs around. But I think there are jobs available for setting up and running Linux servers. Perhaps that's Microsoft's plan?

  29. Just what the world needs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The skills needed to succeed in technology are quite simple, "avoid Microsoft products". An army of drones employed to pour over Microsoft Knowledge Base articles is not a net boost to the economy.

    Thanks to Microsoft for promoting the Broken Windows Fallacy one more time.

  30. Disagree by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Interesting

    First off, of course computer sales are in a slump. They were in a slump during the last big economic downturn, too. (Remember the "bubble"?) That doesn't mean much of anything.

    Second: Microsoft's slump is probably due more to peoples' general (and increasing) dissatisfaction with Microsoft than anything else. But the economy will hurt them, too. Maybe a lot. After all, a 5-year-old PC can run Linux just fine. But try Vista on it. Nope, didn't think so.

    I would be willing to bet that Microsoft's slump lasts longer than any slump for Intel or AMD or Google.

    And IBM? Who cares? When was the last time YOU bought something from IBM?

    1. Re:Disagree by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      First off, of course computer sales are in a slump. They were in a slump during the last big economic downturn, too. (Remember the "bubble"?) That doesn't mean much of anything.
       
      And the jobs never did come back to America- it took 7 years for the number of jobs to be EQUAL to that before the crash, and during that time we imported just about as many workers as we gained jobs.
       
        Second: Microsoft's slump is probably due more to peoples' general (and increasing) dissatisfaction with Microsoft than anything else. But the economy will hurt them, too. Maybe a lot. After all, a 5-year-old PC can run Linux just fine. But try Vista on it. Nope, didn't think so.
       
      Look at the 2nd link above- this isn't just about Microsoft. Software development in general is about as economically efficient as textile work now.
       
        I would be willing to bet that Microsoft's slump lasts longer than any slump for Intel
       
      Whose last big processor, the Nehalem, was designed and built in Bangalore
       
        AMD
       
      I'm going to be amazed if they're still in business now that their credit has dried up
       
        Google.
       
      Who just opened a development office in Mumbai- goodbye Silicon Valley.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    2. Re:Disagree by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And the jobs never did come back to America- it took 7 years for the number of jobs to be EQUAL to that before the crash, and during that time we imported just about as many workers as we gained jobs.

      Most of those jobs didn't leave the country, exactly - they vanished because they were never real in the first place. You can only continue employment on speculative investment for so long. Like right up until the bubble bursts.

    3. Re:Disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as I'm aware Nehalem was designed in Israel and I'm not sure where it's built, probably Malaysia.

    4. Re:Disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Microsoft's slump is probably due more to peoples' general (and increasing) dissatisfaction with Microsoft than anything else"

      And what colour is the sky in your world? What's next - are you going to claim that this year is the "Year of Linux on the Desktops" as well? You may as well go for it! If you are going to lie, lie big!

    5. Re:Disagree by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "And the jobs never did come back to America- it took 7 years for the number of jobs to be EQUAL to that before the crash, and during that time we imported just about as many workers as we gained jobs."

      I don't think you can show causation here. Outsourcing had already begun; it wasn't caused by the "dot-com bubble".

      I did look at the second link, which by the way was not a link to a story, but a link to a link to a story, which is very bad form. Regardless, quote: "Whose last big processor, the Nehalem, was designed and built in Bangalore".

      Completely false. The Dunnington core, NOT Nehalem, was designed in Bangalore, and was the first and only chip so far to be designed there. Further, Dunnington is nothing more than a multi-core Penryn, which does not say very much about the Bangalore team: http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3264

      Also, it was not BUILT there, but only designed there. And further yet, that has almost nothing to do with software development, which is the topic under discussion.

      And lastly, if you had been involved with any of the international software freelancing sites, you would know that places like Pakistan, India, and any number of third-world countries are full of software development firms and individuals who are, according to their own horn-blowing, experts in virtually everything. You would also know that although they very often under-bid other developers, their reputation is terrible. More and more I have been seeing job offers on the international sites for software developers from "North America, South America, and Western Europe ONLY!"

      Sure, outsourcing is bad for America. But the sitation is not as bad as it might appear... especially for software developers.

    6. Re:Disagree by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      goodbye Silicon Valley.

      And good riddance. Have you tried to buy a house in Silicone Valley lately? Worse, have you tried to sell that 1 bedroom bungalow you bought in Silicone Valley two years ago for 2.5 million dollars lately? Have you seen the news about California's budget problems and tax increases?

      I'm sad to see jobs move away from the US too, but there are certain areas of the US that have been popular with tech companies that have become quite hostile to workers.

      Shit, at 10.5 percent sales tax here in Chicago, I'm thinking about moving to Bangalore, too.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    7. Re:Disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sad to see jobs move away from the US too, but there are certain areas of the US that have been popular with tech companies that have become quite hostile to workers.

      Shit, at 10.5 percent sales tax here in Chicago, I'm thinking about moving to Bangalore, too.

      You do know that these two statements are, at best, only peripherally related, right?

    8. Re:Disagree by Johnny+Mnemonic · · Score: 1


      Shit, at 10.5 percent sales tax here in Chicago, I'm thinking about moving to Bangalore, too.

      You think they don't have sales tax in India? I'd suggest doing some research before packing your bags. You might realize how lucky you are.

      http://www.indianembassy.org/newsite//doing_business_in_india/fiscal_taxation_system_in_india.asp#4a

      If you really want to avoid sales tax, try moving to Oregon.

      --

      --
      $tar -xvf .sig.tar
    9. Re:Disagree by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can only continue employment on speculative investment for so long. Like right up until the bubble bursts.

      Or even longer if you can get the Federal Government to bail you out.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    10. Re:Disagree by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      XBox 360 - Chipset made by IBM
      Playstation 3 - Chipset made by IBM
      Wii - Chipset made by IBM

      I think most gamers care .....

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
    11. Re:Disagree by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Dunnington is nothing more than a multi-core Penryn, which does not say very much about the Bangalore team:

      The article does say something about it:

      With 6 cores (3 dual-core pairs on a single die) and a massive 16MB shared L3 cache, Dunnington is close to Tukwila in transistor count, weighing in at a whopping 1.9 billion transistors. Dunnington is the first shipping product to come out of Intel's India Design Team based out of Bangalore, India.

      Architecturally there's not much difference between Dunnington and current Penryn based Xeon parts, you simply get more cores and a very large L3 cache shared by all of the cores. Designing such a beast isn't an insignificant effort, but it's made easier because when Intel designs a core it designs everything up to but not including the L2 cache. The L2 and everything external to it is referred to as the "uncore" and is made somewhat modular, although not quite to the same degree as Nehalem.

      Sounds impressive enough to me. But hey, what do I know, I've never designed a processor.

      Also, it was not BUILT there, but only designed there. And further yet, that has almost nothing to do with software development, which is the topic under discussion.

      It's indicative of the fact that technological development is leaving the USA.

      It's time to either leave the country or prepare to start growing food. Of course, it's nigh-impossible to support oneself on one's silicon valley yard and it's impossible to create a mini-farm/garden that will do it overnight. We are now beginning to reap what we have sown.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    12. Re:Disagree by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Perhaps. But I don't own one of them and I don't miss them a bit.

  31. Hilarious by Luscious868 · · Score: 2, Informative

    So they wan to help laid off workers, just not their own laid off workers?

    Microsoft Bungles Severance, Asks Laid Off Workers for Money Back

    How Microsoft-esque

    1. Re:Hilarious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, that was just coz of a software glitch!

    2. Re:Hilarious by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      They don't want to help laid-off workers, though. They say they do, but what they really want is to entrench themselves into the minds of "technologists" so that they have a viable business through the downturn of the economy.

      Problem is that people are starting to realize you don't have to pay for a lot of good software, and in a down economy that's very important, more important than what's familiar. When someones time to learn Linux starts costing less than the Microsoft stuff they're used to, we'll start seeing a lot of movement to free software.

    3. Re:Hilarious by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Indeed. We're moving over a great deal more to open source products. We won't be buying overpriced Cisco routers, I'll be building them for our different locations, connected with OpenVPN, which is as rock solid a VPN as anything I've seen built-in with routers, and certainly has a lot less cross-compatibility issues than you'll see with different manufacturers IPSec implementations. In my latest job, in particular, there has been very much an institutional bias towards big names (HP, Dell, Microsoft, Norton, and so forth), and while, in some regards (like mid and high-range printers) I agree, but this idea that I should pay a few thousand bucks for some routers that I'll have to pay even more if I want extra features, when I can get good enough performance out of some Linux boxes, is a message I'm finding is getting a more receptive hearing.

      There's nothing, for instance, in Server 2008 that I need. Server 2003 and Exchange 2003 are not perfect products, by an extent, but they're good enough, and that, I suspect, is going to be the mantra of many IT departments over the next few years. Microsoft is clearly trying to push against that with this initiative, but as many of us see our budgets shrink, the relatively small benefits of upgrading as opposed to the vast licensing costs, just doesn't make sense.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  32. MS in the resume is bad for you by edivad · · Score: 0

    Get rid of any trace of MS in your resume, and you'll have a better chance to land a nice, challenging and rewarding job. As soon as I dropped the very first years of my experience (I know!! I didn't know back then) from the resume, offers started flowing in. Do it, it works every time!

    1. Re:MS in the resume is bad for you by MikShapi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Bullshit.

      Most interesting jobs are for people who can drive any car - whether it's a Toyota or a Renault.

      We're a 50-50 linux shop (a big bank), and if you "I DON'T DO WINDOWS", we regard you as the same dogmatic crowd as "I'M SCARED OF LINUX, IT HAS A COMMAND LINE". The clueless crowd we don't hire.

      If you're a professional systems engineer, you can manage anything (and code and script on it).

      If you're dogmatic about a product, you're putting your religious beliefs (those that tack 'good' and 'evil' labels on things such as Microsoft, GNU or the open-source community) before the interests of your employer, and we wouldn't touch you with a 10-meter pole.

      Best advice I can give is be ambivalent - get the fact you're a techie across. If you can sell yourself as an a-religious techie, you'll be in more demand.
      Make a potential employer understand you'll do what is best for him, and you won't let your decisions for him be dictated either by your fear of one thing or religious dogma favoring the other.

      --
      -
    2. Re:MS in the resume is bad for you by gbjbaanb · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think the OP was suggesting that you create your CV full of Linux skills, and then watch as the recruiters direct you to Linux jobs.
      If you have, say, AS/400 mentioned once, as an aside, in a small paragraph, using a tiny font, as a insignificant part of your first job, that you never even touched but the company once had an AS/400, I can guarantee you will get recruiters calling about whether your AS/400 skills are up to date enough to be a sysadmin!

      Remove all traces of MS from your CV and you will get only interesting jobs - embedded, mobile, Linux. You won't get called for the crowd of MS vb.net jobs that are out there. You don't have to mention anything about hating Microsoft either! (and you get bonus points when you turn up to the interview and can do Windows too).

    3. Re:MS in the resume is bad for you by Locklin · · Score: 0, Troll

      In other words, the less concerned you are with ethics, the more jobs you can do. I'm not going to argue with that.

      --
      "Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
    4. Re:MS in the resume is bad for you by edivad · · Score: 2, Funny

      ... (a big bank) ...

      See, I told ya it always work. It just filters out unwanted jobs, and lets you focus on the interesting ones.

    5. Re:MS in the resume is bad for you by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      You've pretty much proven the posters point - you work in a bank.

      An embedded linux etc job wouldn't require coding in Windows.

    6. Re:MS in the resume is bad for you by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      Well, when I'm asked about my opinion about Windows I always put on a smile and say it's great. The response can be various, mainly if they put their lives on W they like the response, if they don't (this happened once) they nod and smile back knowingly :) Anyway, when one goes to an interview one really should know at least as much about the company one goes to. The preferences of the interviewers are a different topic :)

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    7. Re:MS in the resume is bad for you by russotto · · Score: 1

      If you're dogmatic about a product, you're putting your religious beliefs (those that tack 'good' and 'evil' labels on things such as Microsoft, GNU or the open-source community) before the interests of your employer, and we wouldn't touch you with a 10-meter pole.

      Not surprising. Your employer is a big bank; they know they're getting the 'evil' label.

      (BTW, I prefer not to work with Microsoft technology not because MS is evil or Linus et al are good, but because Microsoft technology is unpleasant to work with. That said, my current job requires it. Eh, it's a living.)

    8. Re:MS in the resume is bad for you by Joey+Vegetables · · Score: 1

      If you're dogmatic about a product, you're putting your religious beliefs (those that tack 'good' and 'evil' labels on things such as Microsoft, GNU or the open-source community) before the interests of your employer, and we wouldn't touch you with a 10-meter pole.

      Too bad for you then. I prefer Free Software wherever possible, for solid business reasons which I am happy to demonstrate on request. I tolerate the rest, and even develop for Windows about half of my time on average. But even then, I leverage Free technologies such as Python, SharpDevelop and Cygwin to make this job easier and more productive and to deliver maximal business value to my employer. These tools, plus the knowledge and experience I've gained using Free Software, make me a better Windows developer than most of my peers (in fact, better than any of those who do not do pretty much the same thing I do). This approach has served both my current employer and me for the better part of 10 years now, even though it does not (yet) see the benefits of Freedom to quite the same extent as I. It's a shame you'd deny your company the benefits of someone who can not only "drive any car" as you put it, but also help you pick the one that is best for your particular needs.

    9. Re:MS in the resume is bad for you by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

      It's pretty much like that; in my recent experiences with freelancing, all the interesting jobs are using open source technologies while most of the less thought-out projects are using Microsoft technologies. I think it says something about the sort of person who posts them... not that I'm saying Microsoft products don't have their place.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    10. Re:MS in the resume is bad for you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft - Fat bald guy in a business suit
      Linux - Fat hairy nerd with a neckbeard

  33. depends on what you mean by computer skills by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Some areas have large surpluses, others have large deficits. One area I'm familiar with with a deficit is anything to do with data analysis, due to the huge piles of data companies like Google and Facebook are building up that they don't do nearly as much with as they could. If you can convince a company that you're both technically competent when it comes to data mining, machine learning, etc., and have knowledge in some area that relates to something to do with it (marketing/customer stuff, artificial intelligence, even just information visualization), there are plenty of jobs.

    Actually, in general, the best bet seems to be to have two useful skill areas that intersect in some reasonable way; really cuts down the competition as compared to going up against people in one area or the other in isolation.

    1. Re:depends on what you mean by computer skills by paazin · · Score: 1

      Hear, hear.

      There are many companies still hiring workers, as the need is still there - it's areas like these, where specialization is key, the market is still scarce of workers who have the background in the subject.

      I don't see how more MSCEs would help with this however, as this is a wholly different ballpark...

    2. Re:depends on what you mean by computer skills by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      If you can convince a company that you're both technically competent when it comes to data mining, machine learning, etc., and have knowledge in some area that relates to something to do with it (marketing/customer stuff, artificial intelligence, even just information visualization), there are plenty of jobs.

      And if you can convince a company that you can change lead into gold, you could probably find a good job right now, too.

      Otherwise, faghettaboudit.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:depends on what you mean by computer skills by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The data analyst position is somewhat of a foregone era. Very few companies want to actually "analyze" their data. Instead, everyone wants to just invent an algorythm or have some company that specializes in search/summarization/categorization take the data and do that work for them.

      The only thing left are droids who do generic searches based on information that the company execs deem "important".

      Search software is coming of the age where you want to find things like a "motorcycle", and you get searches that never mention it, only the fact that a device has two wheels, a seat, and can be used on a road.

      So the needed intelligence of a data analyst is little to none unfortunately.

    4. Re:depends on what you mean by computer skills by russotto · · Score: 1

      And if you can convince a company that you can change lead into gold, you could probably find a good job right now, too.

      I wouldn't need a job. Just a stake which I could get by picking up broken-off wheel weights.

  34. This post requires elevation by MrEricSir · · Score: 2, Funny

    Stupid UAC, look what it's come to. Now we have to elevate the entire COUNTRY just to make Vista usable.

    --
    There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
  35. Your tax dollars at work by vonWoland · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The really brilliant part:

    Elevate America has two main offerings, one available immediately and one that will be provided in partnership with state governments

    Translation: MS will get money earmarked for retraining programs in order to flood the market with MS trained workers, depressing the wages of the latter and making their "TCO" so much more attractive.

    You have to admire a company that is able to screw us coming and going.

    1. Re:Your tax dollars at work by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      It's better than outsourcing. Every time outsourcing comes up, people say, "Oh, these bastard firms are too cheap to actually train American workers!".

      Well now an American firm is going to train American workers and everyone accuses them of trying to flood the market with cheap labor. Nice going. Microsoft is wrong when they fail to meet your demands, and when they do meet them.

    2. Re:Your tax dollars at work by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Well now an American firm is going to train American workers and everyone accuses them of trying to flood the market with cheap labor.

      Uh, Microsoft isn't going to train American workers in any generally-applicable sense. It is going to train people to use its products specifically (partially with its own money, partially "in cooperation with state governments" -- i.e., via public subsidies) as a way of improving its competitive position vis-a-vis other technology firms. Its essentially a PR stunt trying to sell an effort to get public subsidies to help reinforce Microsoft's existing market dominance as if this was somehow a benefit to the public.

    3. Re:Your tax dollars at work by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      It's better than outsourcing. Every time outsourcing comes up, people say, "Oh, these bastard firms are too cheap to actually train American workers!".

      You might want to go back and re-read those complaints. Usually the complaint is that the "bastard firms" are too cheap to HIRE American workers.

    4. Re:Your tax dollars at work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The first thing that occurred to me when I heard "Elevate America" is "That's an interesting new way to say make an old familiar rude suggestion!"

    5. Re:Your tax dollars at work by Dekortage · · Score: 1

      My favorite line from the MS site is: "If you would like to receive information when the Elevate America resources become available in your state, please follow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/elevateamerica."

      Oooh boy, I'm standing by for my Microsoft Tweet!

      --
      $nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
  36. So, will they help me get Linux training? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At my company, windoze admins are being laid off and linux admins are working overtime. If microsoft can help me develop and extend my linux skills portfolio I would appreciate it very much.

  37. Out of Work? Losing Your Home? Hungry? by jeko · · Score: 3, Funny

    Don't worry! Our MCSA will solve all your problems!

    --
    He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
    1. Re:Out of Work? Losing Your Home? Hungry? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft Certified Software Asshole?

  38. Fashionable to release stimulus packages by tregeagle · · Score: 0

    It's fashionable to release stimulus packages at the moment. Everyone is doing it, why shouldn't Microsoft jump on the bandwagon. Of course those of a more cynical nature may construe this as just a trick to try and get more customers on board... The cynics may have something there.

    The game remains the same but the presentation changes.

  39. Funded by .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    """ in partnership with state governments."""

    I was wondering what MS's plans were for grabbing a share of the 700 billion.

    The 'partnership' is that the state pays for the courses and for computers with Windows Vista/7 and Office 2007, and Microsoft gets the training revenue plus the software revenue plus a cut of the computer revenue and gets 2 million indoctrinated MS comsumers incapable of knowing anything else.

  40. Am I wrong? by Mnemen · · Score: 3, Interesting

    But didn't Microsoft just cut their workforce? http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=11561

      I am sure it wasn't all in the US, but still one hand saying hey lets help American workers get the skills they need to get a job, and then cutting thousands of workers seems to be a bit conflicting in their messaging...

  41. yeah, right. by jdcope · · Score: 0, Troll

    Microsoft doesnt care about whether or not Americans have jobs. Wasnt Bill Gates in the news recently bitching at Congress because he wants more H1B Visa workers allowed here?

    1. Re:yeah, right. by jdcope · · Score: 1

      Troll? seriously? Whatever douchebag.

  42. Show me a man who can't find anyone to hire... by jeko · · Score: 1

    ...and I'll show you a man no one wants to work for. Multiply the offer by a factor of ten and you'll have the absolutely perfect people banging down your door. If you're having trouble finding someone in this economy, then either your offer is ridiculously low or your reputation precedes you.

    Gee, Frank told me he can't find anyone to sell him a BMW for $500 with a credit score of 310. Clearly, the government needs to intervene to force those lazy Germans to sell the product of their labor to Frank...

    --
    He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
    1. Re:Show me a man who can't find anyone to hire... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you trying to say Germans make the BMW (British Motor Works) vehicles? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense...

    2. Re:Show me a man who can't find anyone to hire... by mysticgoat · · Score: 1

      Meh. Where I am, BMW usually stands for the kind of bitching, moaning, and whining we here from fashionable people who drive cars from Bavaria.

      The main point of a car should be transportation. Not a fashion statement. But that was really just my BMW, I'll stop ranting now.

    3. Re:Show me a man who can't find anyone to hire... by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      You gotta have hobbies - my car was made by a company that builds airplane engines.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    4. Re:Show me a man who can't find anyone to hire... by mysticgoat · · Score: 1

      You drive a Rolls-Royce? Alfa-Romeo? Bentley? Oh, a BMW?? Or a Chrysler? Or a Fiat, or Ford, or Mercedes, or Mitsubishi, or Renault? Or a Sunbeam (those were nice sportscars, are they still made)? And I think I missed a few...

    5. Re:Show me a man who can't find anyone to hire... by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Rolls Royce doesn't make airplanes anymore (that's a separate company), and anyway, I'd be surprised if any of those companies use the same motor on planes as cars. I've got a Subaru, and yes they do.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    6. Re:Show me a man who can't find anyone to hire... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and I'll show you a man no one wants to work for. Multiply the offer by a factor of ten and you'll have the absolutely perfect people banging down your door.

      But unfortunately they'll be lost in a sea of howling morons who just want the money. If you have HR people to pre-filter, they'll filter out 90% of the morons and all the perfect people. So you'll think there's no one available at any price.

  43. It is not about selling MS software ... by jackspenn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think some /.ers miss the point when they suggest this is about selling MS software. This is not about increasing MS revenue by selling more software, this is about increasing MS revenue by selling courses and certifications.

    I am so pissed with MS lately, after Bill left they switched over from "certifying qualified people to support their products" to "selling certifications". Red Hat and Cisco certs are the way to go, they do a better job of testing real world experience, Red Hat being the best.

    For the record I have the following certs, MCP, MCTS, MCITP: Enterprise Adminstrator, MCSA, MCSA: Messaging, MCSE, MCSE: Messaging.

    --
    Respect the Constitution
  44. A Reactive Attack on Linux? by jonaskoelker · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Several posters have mused that Microsoft's strategy is to flood the market with MSCEs and grow the market for themselves.

    My general impression is that we've been hearing about organizations switching to Open Source solutions during the economic downturn due to lower costs.

    Could this be Microsoft feeling threatened and reacting by counter-attacking?

    Microsoft *is* big and is not going to die soon, that much is certain. But what's important is whether the trend is going up or down, and by how much. Being big just helps you control that (to some extent).

    1. Re:A Reactive Attack on Linux? by ardle · · Score: 1

      Maybe they'll try to undermine IBM again and provide consultants at a cheaper rate. Good for the country that businesses save money, makes it more competitive internationally.
      In the meantime, they don't have to do much about hiring locally, having implied a lack of skill by offering training.
      Tax-deductable training?
      Wow, cynicism is fun!

    2. Re:A Reactive Attack on Linux? by msclrhd · · Score: 1

      http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/ (David) vs http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2009/feb09/02-22elevateamericapr.mspx (Goliath).

      I think that as well as more people turning to Open Source/Free Software alternatives that Microsoft are scared of people like Ken (from the HeliOS blog referenced above) and the power of word of mouth and community. When more and more people start using and recommending alternatives, Microsoft tries everything to disrupt and corrupt them.

      See Netscape/IE, ISO/OOXML, Microsoft gatecrashing conferences and now this for examples.

      I like the Ghandi quote: "First they ignore us, then they laugh at us, then they fight us, then we win!"

  45. It's a trap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ok, you get the axe, I'll get the pitchforks, torches, and angry villagers. Honestly, who could be less qualified to 'elevate' anyone in a technological sense. Microsoft impedes progress; they don't facilitate it. It's like Pol Pot claiming to be a champion of human rights, and starting a 'training program'.

    1. Re:It's a trap. by exley · · Score: 1

      It's like Pol Pot claiming to be a champion of human rights, and starting a 'training program'.

      No. Just, no.

    2. Re:It's a trap. by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      It's not a Godwin if you don't mention the name of Chancellor of Germany between 1933 and 1945.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  46. better idea by ILuvRamen · · Score: 1

    If you're going to take a bunch of probably 30+ year olds and teach them semi-advanced and basic computer skills so they can do neat stuff, you might as well do it in Linux. I mean starting with almost no knowledge is sort of nice because basically the only reason I don't use Linux is I already know everything about Windows and don't feel like re-learning everything. So for others that don't already know windows inside and out, why not just teach em Linux? By the way, the other reason I don't use it is compatibility cuz I have to run certain programs that it doesn't support.

    --
    Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
  47. A stimulus would imply putting people to work. by zullnero · · Score: 1

    Really stimulating the economy would mean freezing their overseas hiring and rehiring their workers in the US. You can't really "Elevate America" if all you're doing is elevating China.

    The bottom line about offshoring that employers still don't seem to be honest enough to admit is that it's all about money. It's not because they really want some amazingly skilled people overseas, so much so that they'd lay some guy in the US with the skills to currently deliver work off and pay him unemployment insurance...they want cheap workers. I work in a company that has some guys offshore. We don't employ them because they can do anything more than any of our guys we employ here, we employ our offshore team because the company I work with takes low bid flat fee projects from small businesses, and we give that work to those guys offshore because they work for the US equivalent of minimum wage. That holds true for any company trying to do things cheap.

    You can pretty up resumes and offer cheap training all you want, but if you're not going to hire those people because you don't want to pay them, it's all for show. IMO, this is just a big public image stunt unless they're willing to directly place people in jobs.

  48. "Elevate Microsoft", more like by Paua+Fritter · · Score: 1

    Yep, a stimulus package "of its own" is correct.

    Americans are to be stimulated to:

    • Install Microsoft Silverlight
    • Licence Microsoft software
    • Study Microsoft software
    • Acquire Microsoft certification
    • Install Microsoft Silverlight
    • Visit Microsoft websites
    • Install Microsoft Silverlight
  49. Brilliant, Holmes, Brilliant! by Un+pobre+guey · · Score: 1
    • State the obvious
    • provide products and services with vendor lock-in, many or most of them billable
    • ???
    • Profit

    Seriously, where is the novelty in this list:

    • Expanded access to basic technology literacy and skills training
    • Basic-level information technology training resources through Microsoft Unlimited Potential and Digital Literacy curricula
    • Intermediate technology skills training courses, online and instructor-led, plus selected certification exams
    • Vouchers for eLearning course collections offered by Microsoft
    • Vouchers for certification exams leading to Microsoft business certification
    • Grants of cash and software to community partners to build in-classroom training capacity
    • Discounted membership rates for institutions participating in the Microsoft IT Academy program
    • Access to a new Web portal that will help guide individuals to training and resources that position them for success in the economy today, and tomorrow

    You have to hand it to them though, if anyone can find a silver... um, golden lining to a problem, it's MS.

  50. BS by westlake · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Cause I'm having a hard time justifying a $200 OS for my $300 laptop

    It's time the geek stopped wallowing in his own FUD.

    The Acer XP laptop with an Atom CPU, a 9" screen, 1 GB RAM and a 160 GB HDD is $298 at Walmart.com.

    In six months to a year the OS will be Win 7, the specs significantly better, and the price will still be cheaper than OEM Linux.

    The lone Linux netbook?

    A Dell Inspiron with 512 MB of RAM and 4 GB of Flash for $350.

    "Not sold in stores."

    1. Re:BS by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but Infoworld did an article about this very issue this week and I stand by my statement.

      Right now most of the DBMS people I know are busy porting things over to MySQL because we're bailing.

      Maybe in your world the color of the sun is orange and the sky is purple, but in mine it's yellow and blue.

      You might want to get out to the stores and see what's there now.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    2. Re:BS by natet · · Score: 1

      The lone Linux netbook?

      A Dell Inspiron with 512 MB of RAM and 4 GB of Flash for $350.

      "Not sold in stores."

      Obviously, someone didn't look at Dell.com before they posted...

      Dell Inspirion mini 9 with Ubuntu linux, and all the above specs: $249

      The Windows XP version does come with a hard drive double the size for just $50 more, but notice that is after $25 of "instant savings." Make of that what you will.

      --
      IANAL... But I play one on /.
    3. Re:BS by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

      This Westlake guy is full of it. Can't find it in stores, either? Huh, I guess that EEE PC at the Target down the block doesn't have Linux after all like the display model, and for $250. Been to Best Buy in a while, buddy? I like how the guy who screams of FUD is the one spreading it the most.

    4. Re:BS by westlake · · Score: 1
      Obviously, someone didn't look at Dell.com before they posted...

      I was looking at sales through the world's largest retailer - and not the direct seller whose promotional pricing schemes change almost literally from day to day, if not hour to hour.

      Not that itmatters, really. Because you've simply provided another example that systems based on more or less the same hardware sell for more or less the same price whether the OS is Linux or Windows.

      THe "$200 OS on a $300 laptop" remains pure fantasy.

    5. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? So I buy a $300 laptop with Linux preinstalled and I want to put Windows on it. Where is this free version of Windows I can install on it?

    6. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does the Eee no longer run Linux? Mine does, though it is admittedly not a current model.

    7. Re:BS by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "I was looking at sales through the world's largest retailer"

      No you weren't. I know for a fact you weren't looking at Ingram Micro's site.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  51. A cure for erectile disfunction?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Micro. Soft. .... has finally surpassed themselves....

  52. What the Hell by Cornwallis · · Score: 1

    is the "field of technology?"

    That sounds too much like it came from Dr. Science:

    "I'm not a real doctor"

    "He's got his Masters degree"

    "In Science"

  53. Great... by TheMCP · · Score: 1

    Just what I need, more competition for the inadequate number of jobs available to me.

  54. Easy! by RulerOf · · Score: 5, Funny

    How does one get the temperature below 0 degrees Kelvin?

    When jokes fly above the heads of unsuspecting slashdotters, the ensuing endothermic reaction has been shown to lower temperatures past 0 degrees K.

    The "woosh"-ing sound means it's working!

    --
    Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
  55. Time to thank God you posted AC by jeko · · Score: 1

    http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/BMW

    BMW Bayerische Motoren Werke (Bavarian Motor Works; German auto manufacturer)

    --
    He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
  56. Business Plan by xixax · · Score: 1

    1. Provide online training on how to write formatted email and other inane MS Office features
    2. ???
    3. Profit!

    Yup, real gnome's underpants this one....

    --
    "Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
  57. ObJoke: Young Frankstein by blamanj · · Score: 2, Funny

    Gates: Elevate me!
    Ballmer: Now? Right here?

  58. I already got computer skills by Skapare · · Score: 1

    ... now all I need is an email box in Nigeria and I'll be set to make millions.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  59. Let's only hope by williamyf · · Score: 1

    That RedHat, Suse and the FSF come up with similar programs, both in breadth and # of persons reached.

    That way, the computer Illiterate can choose what technology to learn, and are armed and ready when the ceconomy picks up in three years time...

    And let's also hope that Microsoft, RedHat, Suse, the FSF, Cisco, Juniper, IBM, Oracle, Sun and the gang rememeber that this is a GLOBAL crisis, and launch similar programs worldwide....

    Bridging the "digital divide" will only be good for America and for the World

    Salud!

    --
    *** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
  60. Is this real? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are they really going to find 2 million people who are both:
    a. capable of learning to be MSCEs, etc
    b. interested in doing so?

  61. Trying to take the assment test and... by Datamonstar · · Score: 1

    BOOM! error. Of course this was in Firefox. I'll bet IE works fine. Oh well, I applaud them for try to educate. I will be getting my family members to participate. Hopefully it will eliminate some of the need for me to hold their hands in minor computing matters. Hopefully, one day we will be like the cheezy sci-fi flicks where pretty much everyone is able to perform minor programming tasks.

    --
    The eternal struggle of good vs. evil begins within one's self.
  62. By Neruos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Skills do not matter when 100 unemployeed people with an IT/IS degree, who are all submitting all submitting resumes thru 3 headhunters for the same position. America isn't the land of the skill-less, it's the land of the IT/IS offshoring. IT/IS degree people are moving toward finding small businesses to work at. It's all about a job and less about career.

  63. Odd misunderstanding of economics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where did you get your odd misunderstanding of basic economics ? [citation please]

  64. counting H1-Bs? just look around by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    In my client's building, a state government agency, with 800 total staff, about half are H1-Bs. OK, some of them may have green cards, but either way that's 400 Americans out of work. I go to Hartford for meetings at an insurance company sometimes. At quitting time, the ratio of people coming out must be 5 H1-Bs for every American (not buying insurance from that named-for-a-Connecticut-city company). I can't believe the .25% number is remotely accurate.

    How many unemployed Americans do we need before something gets done about this?

  65. Not to mention windows doesn't cost $300 by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

    Furthermore why would you spend $300 on Windows?

    If you already own Windows it's between $60-140 to upgrade to Vista.

    If you don't:
    OEM Vista Ultimate costs $170.
    OEM Vista Home Premium is $99.

    If you want to use almost exclusively "free" software on top of a 'minimalistic OS' you can even get Vista Basic OEM for $89.

    1. Re:Not to mention windows doesn't cost $300 by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

      ...and then another $150 for Vista Service Pack 2.5. Err, excuse me, I mean Win7.

  66. Microsoft promises by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    In 3 years will be 2012... I'd call it a hit. At least this time will be no one left to check if Microsoft this time said the truth or just released vaporware as usual.

  67. Australia Too by Techman83 · · Score: 1

    I noticed some strange and very subtle ad's the other night whilst watching TV. Personally it offended me.

    --
    # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i cat
    Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
  68. First step of their EEE tactics? by Erikderzweite · · Score: 1

    It is clearly first step of Microsoft's infamous Elevate-Extend-Extinguish tactics.

    Just wait till they aproach the third phase.

  69. The "Don't Support IE" Stimulus Plan by knewter · · Score: 1

    I came up with a stimulus plan of my own. It goes like this: Everyone, install firefox and delete your IE shortcuts. Then we won't have *every web development shop in the world* spending roughly 2x the necessary time on any given project to make up for its shortcomings.

    Seriously, that would mean twice as many pieces of web-based software could be written in the same amount of time for the same amount of money, and would similarly drop the maintenance costs of the sites by roughly 1/2. Any web developer in the world* will agree that IE is the worst part of their job.

    So there, the Isotope11 stimulus package. [http://www.isotope11.com] [yes, our site is terrible.]

    * I obviously exclude people that build apps dependent on ActiveX controls from the rank of web developer, because God told me they suck.

    --
    -knewter
    1. Re:The "Don't Support IE" Stimulus Plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah go ahead and do that. If it takes you twice the time to work around browser quirks then the problem is you're a second rate web developer.

      I guess since you wont accept IE/MS related web work, it means more work for me ! Awesome! Wait till all the jobs go overseas and we'll see how soon your bitching stops. Haha...

  70. Re:That's great... Sewing false hope by davidsyes · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seems to me that ms wants to suckle money from the Stimulus Package by giving false hope to tens of thousands of people who already have enormous competition from hundreds of thousands of already- ms-certified techhies out there who DO NOT need the extra competition, but who will suffer from the lower pay expectations of the newcomers.

    Sounds like a quasi reach-around. People wanting to get into tech jobs can already go to local city/county/state offered programs. But, in making this "levitate/satiate/simulate Amerca" pitch of theirs, they probably hope someone in the Obama administration is green (or dumb) enough to say, "Hey, lets give ms some of that money and let them decide how to dole out the vouchers...." Only thing is is that ms as SURELy would love to get the money, and put the vouchers down to the lowers dollar amount they can get away with.

    --
    Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
  71. Well Thought Out by Iyonesco · · Score: 1

    "The Web site provides access to several Microsoft online training programs, including how to use the Internet" - This is fantatic idea. Now anyone who can't use the internet can just go on the internet and...oh wait.

  72. It's a matter of MISREPRESENTATION, not fairness by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Are you saying that terrible American programmers deserve the job over great foreign programmers because they're American?

    I am only saying that the H-1B program was misrepresented to the American voters. They were told there was a "shortage" of techies, not that it is to replace "C" citizens with "A" guest workers. If that is REALLY the purpose of the H-1B program, then lobbyists etc. should be honest about it. It appears voters have been lied to.
           

  73. I say we go into business for ourselves by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

    I am working on an open sourced business plan to create customized applications for various niche markets (I won't list them here, for someone else will compete with me and get a head start on me) for platforms that lack certain types of applications be they open sourced or commercial.

    Then use those open sourced projects as templates to create customized versions of them that are tailored to the client's needs. Each client has different needs and commercial off the shelf software does not always fill those needs or may never fill those needs as they are mostly "one size fits all" projects that either have things the client doesn't need and doesn't want to pay for, or lacks the things they need but cannot be modified to include them.

    Systems Integration will also be part of the business plan. For if these customized programs cannot work with other already designed programs, what good are they?

    The business plan is to earn money off selling the services to customize the open source programs or build new ones and the client can pay money to release their code fork from open source to closed source and pay for service and support and customized programming. Each forked version will become a different version of the software, but have elements in common so that data can be migrated if one client buys out or merges with another client.

    I've gotten tired of writing customized programs for big companies and small companies and not being paid what my IP is worth. I eventually became the disposable employee of migrating someone else's code and database and debugging and rewriting them so they crash less and run faster, only to be terminated after the projects are finished, then hired by another employer and repeat the cycle. The IP I had invented and created for them can be measured in the millions, and they got rid of the goose that laid the golden egg, all I am saying is that we should start to create our own IP and then sell our own golden eggs instead of being employed and being paid peanuts of a small salary for laying golden eggs only to be terminated after the projects are over or as soon as the company starts losing money whichever comes first.

    I am not just another el cheapo code monkey with an IT degree, I get results, damn amazingly great results, commercial quality results, while the average code monkey will crank out "crap" sloppy code that crashes the system 12 times a day and runs really slow. I beg to differ by the quality of my code, compared to the "dime a dozen" programmers who only wish they can write code like I and a few others can. Offshore the programming jobs all they want, but when they want it done right and want it done the correct way they can call me in and pay me as a high priced consultant cleaning up the broken code and sloppy code and legacy issues with all of the old code so it runs better and rewriting it so it runs faster and crashes the system hardly ever.

    I really don't need the Microsoft training, but I'll take it if they offer it for free. I'll also develop in Java, C++, Pascal, Python, PHP, and many other languages as well, because I know over 30 of them.

    --
    Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
  74. How do you smell Marketing? by xactuary · · Score: 1, Funny
    Microsoft Unveils "Elevate America"

    Wow. And I though "Genuine Advantage" was lame.

    --
    Say hello to my little sig.
  75. so, that means... by jipn4 · · Score: 1

    the skills needed to succeed in the field of technology.

    That means that Microsoft is finally teaching people Linux and open source?

  76. Platform Shoes & Disco by H3XCAT · · Score: 1

    The real plan:

    1. Give away free platform shoes (made overseas)
    2. Distribute free (unsold surplus) Zunes with DRMed "Best of Disco Era" tracks
    3. During ensuing confusion & public distraction of mass pain from twisted ankles... profit!

    Balmer: "Brilliant! Wadda we call it?"
    Gate$: "'Elevate America' has a nice ring to it, nobody will suspect a thing"
    Balmer: "sweeeeeet! can I throw some of the platform shoes at people?"
    G$: "mmmmmm, should make a nice thud"

  77. Re:It's a matter of MISREPRESENTATION, not fairnes by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

    The purpose of H1B is to increase the number of A and B level tech workers so that the wage pressure is relieved. As a nice side benefit, H1Bs are less mobile, so you can drive them harder.

    --
    "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  78. Re:It's a matter of MISREPRESENTATION, not fairnes by Thinboy00 · · Score: 1

    [snip] voters have been lied to.

    O RLY? Call the media!!! It's not like this has ever happened before!

    --
    $ make available
  79. Re:That's great... Sewing false hope by msclrhd · · Score: 1

    They got the E part wrong in the name. It should be "Embrace America". Or are we on "Extend America" now?

  80. Doesn't work in Firefox/OS X 10.5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm supposed to take a class in Internet literacy from someone who can't code a form that will work in anything but IE? And they tell me the problem is pedagogical. System requirements:

    What if I donâ(TM)t use Microsoft products, or have older versions installed?
    Since Digital Literacy simulates software user environments, pedagogically, it doesnâ(TM)t require a specific application software or operating system to be installed for use. However, the practice exercises in the instructorâ(TM)s manual assume that students have access to Office and Windows. Instructors report that greater retention of ICT concepts occurs when students are able to reinforce learning with hands-on practice.

    The only software required to run either version of Digital Literacy is a minimum of Microsoft Internet Explorer 6, which is available to users of Windows XP Service Pack 2(SP2) and later. The curriculum also works with Microsoft Internet Explorer 7. If you plan to use the Microsoft Word download versions of the curriculum, you must have Microsoft Word 2002 or later installed.

  81. Thanks for the help by avattathil · · Score: 1

    I am sure that your crap training will undo all the lobbing you have done before congress to increase the H1-B visas. What a bunch of Bullshit!. If you wanna make a contribution why don't you give away that so called operating system you guys make. Oh that right I would use it anyway... -avattathil

  82. Would the "stimulus" involve Microsoft ... by freedom_india · · Score: 1

    As part of its "stimulus package" would Microsoft forego the repayments it is asking from laid-off employees?
    It is a stimulus in reality for both Microsoft and the ex-employee:
    Microsoft gains a HUGE PR which even the Seinfeld actor can't provide, which translates to sales.
    The laid-off guy has a bonus.

    --
    "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
  83. Good intentions? by iamapizza · · Score: 1

    Look everyone, MS seems to have some good intentions. Let's bash them for trying to improve people's lives and coming up with an idea that Google and Apple haven't! How dare they?

    /me Goes back to brown-nosing Steve Jobs.

    --
    Always proofread carefully to see if you any words out.
    1. Re:Good intentions? by AppleTwoGuru · · Score: 1

      How about all the jobs and innovation that were lost when the Microsoft Mafia gave Stac Electronics, Netscape, Corel, Caldera, Apple, Commodore, and Atari some dead fish and a pair of cement shoes. How about their insistence to continue slamming innovation in companies that is not Microsoft. They have money to burn on their Mafia-style politics. They don't care about helping people learn how to run computers. They care about how to feed people more Microsoft kool-aid and smoke more Windows crack, and make it look good. The road to HELL is paved with good intentions. Want to learn great skills? Load your computer with Open Source software and a Linux OS. Open-source software has always provided free education, by nature. Take advantage of an open-source education right now! I never needed Microsoft to teach me anything about computers except how to monopolize the market. But I am not a Socialist. I am a Fighter for True Democratic Freedom.

  84. GPs statement seems perfectly reasonable by Nazlfrag · · Score: 1

    A quick search on google shows Ultimate avaliable from between $175 and $245, but usually around $200. Parent claimed $200 not $300 for windows, the $300 was the laptop price. Also, WTF does free software have to do with Vista Basic?

    1. Re:GPs statement seems perfectly reasonable by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Exactly. My point is that, if you're looking at a reasonable OS package, it tends to cost $200 for the average guy on the street to add to a $300 laptop hardware box.

      Sure OEMs get it cheaper, but we're not OEMs.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  85. OEM purchase by a non-OEM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is a breech of the license.

    Are you telling people to pirate software???

  86. If its led by Microsoft it is bound to fail... by Lazypete · · Score: 1

    The problem I see in this is that, knowing microsoft as we all do, for years and years of FUD and mischief, they are NOT going to equip america with technology skills. They are going to equip america with Microsoft skills, thats a big difference. They wont teach these people how to work with computer, to understand the basis of computer science. No, they will teach them how to be a MCP or a MCT. Yes these people will probably get a job, well I hope so for them. The only thing that depress me is that it will create more Microsoft Cappies (guys wearing a microsoft cap)

  87. Re:That's great... Sewing false hope by sesshomaru · · Score: 1

    Microsoft? They've already Embraced and Extended America, so now they are on that third thing... Elevate (yeah, that's the ticket).

    --
    "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
  88. Compelling... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what is it with Microsft and the word 'compelling'?

  89. Skills and claimed skills by phorm · · Score: 1

    I work in a big city (Canada) and make a decent enough wage, especially for the current economic situation. When we were interviewing, a large portion of the candidates were - frankly - rather pathetic.

    Supposed IT professionals who didn't know the names of the parts in their computer, or thought that knowing HTML made them a hot-shot programmer (lefover dot-bombers?). We had plenty of people show up who didn't even come close to meeting the listed skill requirements, and just wasted our time listing "alternative" experience from about a decade ago.

    I know there are quite a number of MCSE's etc out there (and I'm more of a Unix/Linux shop type), but even then I've seen few with actual skills. While my own Windows administration skills have become a bit rusty over the years in favor of Unix, I wouldn't trust a lot of the so-called experts to fix my desktop let alone run my server!

    So though I keep hearing about all these skilled workers out there, I wonder where they all are. Seems to me that the market has created a lot of people with a few pieces of paper claiming to be experts, but I haven't much of the real thing around here.

    1. Re:Skills and claimed skills by TihSon · · Score: 1

      We are Canadians. Our skills consist of talking and bitching ...

      If it wasn't for Microsoft, our government would still be keeping our files on clay tablets, and we as common folk would write out our tax returns in pencil every year, to be mailed by Canada Post in just two weeks time.

      You can't find skills here because they are as rare as objectivity in the Toronto Star. Our education system makes it impossible to be otherwise.

      --
      In B.C., our fascism is green.
  90. Will their training help their own laidoff workers by revjtanton · · Score: 1

    Thats why they needed money back from their laid-off employees, they needed to pay for their programs to find everyone else employment! The leaders at Microsoft are truly saints of our time!

  91. Re: 1400 beta testers by cepayne · · Score: 1

    The 1,400 former-MS employees are the current beta testing program. (BTW, don't forget to send your severance checks back!)

    Muwha ha ha ha

  92. absolute negative (virtual) temperatures by ErkDemon · · Score: 1
    Kinda.

    If we're dealing with "observable" or "apparent" temperatures, there's an argument for assigning negative "apparent" absolute temperatures to matter that's beyond an observational horizon.

    As a rough generalisation, the apparent temperature of a body, as seen by a distant observer, drops towards absolute zero as it approaches a horizon. Actually, Hawking radiation generates a "Hawking temperature" that complicates things, but we'll start with an idealised classical vacuum.

    Once the body's passed the horizon by a significant distance, you can't see it at its actual position: you can only see an apparent temperature for it that belongs to it's earlier state near the horizon, so the "apparent temperature" for its current position seems at first sight to be "null".

    However, it we take a mixture of gases, with positive and "null" temperatures, we find that the final equilibrium state for the gas presents a visible mean temperature whose value depends on how far beyond lightspeed the receding component of the gas was initially moving. In other words, for thermodynamic calculations to work across a horizon, the "initially-not-directly-visible" material has to be assigned a negative absolute temperature.

    For intelligibility, we might want to refer to these negative Kelvin values as "virtual" temperatures, because normally they can't be observed directly, and can only be measured by the result of their their interactions with observably positive-temperature material.

    The concept of virtual (negative) temperatures probably doesn't have much use in special relativity, but it becomes relevant when we're dealing with cosmological or gravitational horizons, or quantum mechanics (or acoustic metrics).

    In some fields of physics, the properties of matter with supposed superluminal speeds tend to be assigned imaginary values. The observable effects of Brownian motion in a body of gas straddling a cosmological horizon (with information migrating across the horizon as a result of classical processes that appear in an observerspace projection as non-classical and acausal) is actually quite a good way of visualising classical Hawking radiation. When a gas molecule that's nominally behind a horizon gets knocked towards the observer and ends up nominally in front of the horizon, within observerspace geometry, it'll appear to be the result of a particle-pair production event.

    So understanding these negative virtual temperatures is a handy bridge toward understanding how some familiar quantum-mechanical descriptions can be generated from (hypothetical) classical underlying processes.

  93. Re:It's a matter of MISREPRESENTATION, not fairnes by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    please clarify

  94. Immigration HELPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If we want to compete in a world economy, we have to attract and keep the best minds in the world, whether they come from Kansas or Mumbai. Think back a little bit and you'll realize that the US has been actively recruiting the best and brightest it can from other nations for decades, to the benefit of those of us native-born. We give them a path to become citizens, they give us the expertise and innovation that help propel our economy into the next decade. Then they give us money in the form of taxes. They'd rather live here for various reasons, most having to do with our standard of living and the Bill of Rights and we don't have to push our birthrate to a rate we can't support in the hopes that 1 in 1,000 babies born will be a decent engineer.

    Immigration is not the problem. I say let them come and I'll compete and work with them...after all, I'm not exactly a Native American from an ancient tribe myself.