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Comic Artist Detained For Script Containing 9/11 Type Scenarios
Comics writer Mark Sable was detained by security at Los Angeles International Airport because he was carrying a script for a new issue of his comic miniseries, Unthinkable. Unthinkable follows members of a government think tank that was tasked with coming up with 9/11-type "unthinkable" terrorist scenarios that now are coming true. Sable wrote about his experience saying, "...I was flagged at the gate for 'extra screening.' I was subjected to not one, but two invasive searches of my person and belongings. TSA agents then 'discovered' the script for Unthinkable #3. They sat and read the script while I stood there, without any personal items, identification or ticket, which had all been confiscated. The minute I saw the faces of the agents, I knew I was in trouble. The first page of the Unthinkable script mentioned 9/11, terror plots, and the fact that the (fictional) world had become a police state. The TSA agents then proceeded to interrogate me, having a hard time understanding that a comic book could be about anything other than superheroes, let alone that anyone actually wrote scripts for comics. I cooperated politely and tried to explain to them the irony of the situation. While Unthinkable blurs the line between fiction and reality, the story is based on a real-life government think tank where a writer was tasked to design worst-case terror scenarios. The fictional story of Unthinkable unfolds when the writer's scenarios come true, and he becomes a suspect in the terrorist attacks." It's too bad that the TSA can't protect us from summer blockbuster movies and not just graphic novels.
Any proof that he was detained and that this happened? Otherwise I'm tempted to believe that it is a stunt to advertise his comic.
Never try to explain an authority the "irony of the situation". Chances are they will lack the intellect to understand.
Unthinkable!
9/11 conspiracy theories are so 2001
The 1991 movie "Closet Land", starring Madeleine Stowe and Alan Rickman paints a horrifying picture of just how far a government might go in tracking literary "subversives". Sounds like mr. comic book writer is a lot more "at risk" than the childrens' book author in this movie.
Step 1) Make graphic novel mentioning 9/11 /.
Step 2) Get detained by TSA, spread story over
Step 3) Profit!
I can see the grossly under-paid TSA Employees thinking: "Yay! We got one! We got a terrorist!" Too bad they don't go to school to learn the difference between Art and Terror Plans!
"I think you know what I'm talkin' about, Mr. President; We're gonna kill us a mummy!" - Bruce Campbell as Elvis Presley
This is just another chapter in the corrupt fascist Bushitler's regime to destroy freedom and democracy...
oh, right. Obama. What I mean is that this is perfectly acceptable, and is all part of The One's plan for when peace shall guide the planet and love will steer the stars. Yes we can! All hail Obama!
Submitting to authority does not protect you from them.
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
That is bullshit. Why shouldn't he be allowed to carry his script with him into the airplane? Maybe he was going to a meeting about it or something. The TSA are nothing more than airport bullies, all part of the security theatre. They won't actually make you safer, they'll just make your lives a living hell, and worst of all, we let them. Your response is typical and just shows how passive the American people have become. We let these people take away our liberties, and we keep giving them more power, and eventually the USA will be a Police State. You're well on your way to helping make that happen.
This is just insulting how thinly veiled it is.
One presumes they did - otherwise it would have been mentioned. In which case it's just a sorry tale of someone, one of many every day, who gets stopped. Nothing much to see here. Let's have another story please.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
When doing something you have a perfect right to do is "asking for it" something is very wrong.
Describing something that somebody has a perfect right to do as "asking for it" makes you a sniveling authoritarian bootlicker and a complicit bystander to abuse of authority.
It's too bad that the TSA can't protect us from summer blockbuster movies and not just graphic novels.
Personally I think they should stop Michael Bay from boarding any plane after seeing how disturbingly obsessed the man is with explosions.
My work here is dung.
Since Comic Writers are not paid as well Screen Writers, they have to take commercial travel and they have to have a way to transport their work. Should he have put it in a checked bag?
"I think you know what I'm talkin' about, Mr. President; We're gonna kill us a mummy!" - Bruce Campbell as Elvis Presley
This is absurd. Tom Clancy had a "9/11" scenario in one of his books...in the early 90s. Only, in the book, the bad guy flew the plane into the Capital...during a major event.
I don't even read comics but I'm damn sure gonna buy this series now.
From wikipedia:
What about a Tom Clancy book, or one of the Die Hard movies? I'll grant you that a script is a bit outside the norm, but worthy of extra scrutiny? Give me a break.
Welcome to the era of Thought Crime.
Thinking about it is a crime.
Writing about it is a crime.
Drawing about it is a crime.
Last I check wasn't DOING a crime... well.. a crime?
Next thing you know Jessica Lansbury and company will be held and charged for all those terroristic threats and murder plans called "Murder She Wrote". They were so detailed! Lets not forget the Matlock, Columbo, Perry Mason, CSI, etc... All those murder plans!!! GET EM!!
"When is a man damned? When he is oblivious to it."
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
Who in their right mind should have to worry about that at all?
We aren't in our right minds at all if we're concerned at all about a comic book. He wasn't begging for it, we (the collective we) were begging for it to be done to him.
Who in their right mind would assume that securing an airplane would require reading a passenger's private documents?
He was asking for it. No.. he was begging.
The only people begging for it are the submissive right-wingers who worship authority.
The TSA folks were probably just bored, and jumped at the chance to play terrorist make-believe. Now they feel foolish, but while it was happening it was probably quite a thrill.
No, the really sad part is that people like you except the notion that he got what he was asking for.
Either everything is ok to say/write down or nothing is. You'll always find things people consider "objectionable" or "unsafe" whether they be objects, thought, or actions (such as speech). Unless you're actually trying to incite a riot or cause violence with your words (which would have to be proven in court beyond a reasonable doubt), we should be free to express ourselves however we please...
This reminds me of South Park 10.4 (Cartoon Wars II):
President Bush: Look, the fact of the matter is, the Family Guy writing staff is protected by something called the First Amendment. ...you know. Right to free speech.
Reporter 1: And what exactly is this First Amendment, Mr. President?
George W. Bush:
Many of the reporters groan loudly and begin yelling
Reporter 2: Mr. President, when your administration came up with this First Amendment, did it not foresee a problem like this might happen?
George W. Bush: Well, we didn't come up with the First Amendment. It was already in place.
Reporter 3: What do you intend to do about this First Amendment, Mr. President?
Reporter 4: Forgive me, Mr. President, but this First Amendment sounds like a lot of bureaucratic jibbery-jroo.
Damn constitution, always getting in our way.
Unless there's a way to blow up the aircraft with said papers their content shouldn't matter.
Now if you were packing C4 and detonators you should probably be checked out. But plain old information? Without acting on it, information is basically harmless.
Let's say I'm a screenwriter and I'm working on a terrorist-based film that's filming in the Philippines. The script has all sorts of stuff about bombs in airplanes and airports, guys with boxcutters seizing planes and flying them into bridges and military bases and so on and so forth. You're saying if I hop on a plane with the script, I'm asking for trouble?
I wonder how many real bad guys slip through the cracks will moronic airport employees harass people that they know aren't a threat to anyone. I suppose it's a lot easier to pick on Joe Q. Public because they've got a comic book or the wrong skin color or last name than to actually secure airports.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
"I cooperated politely and tried to explain to them the irony of the situation." Mr. Sable's ignorance or willful abdication of his 5th amendment rights caused him to perhaps waste a great opportunity to challenge TSA policies on search of personal belongings. Next time, maybe a better approach would be (disclaimer, IANAL): "Am I being detained?" followed by "I'd like you to tell me what laws you are accusing me of breaking," or "I won't make any statements until I have spoken to a lawyer," as the case may be. If Mr. Sable had actually been prosecuted simply for having exercised his 1st amendment rights, his case would have had a much more significant impact in our fear-prone society, causing perhaps some much needed "clarification" of what the federal government can/cannot do "for our own good" to "protect us from the evil terrorists." Perhaps even a re-evaluation of TSA policies, or at least application of punishment to over-zealous agents.
"The minute I saw the faces of the agents, I knew I was in trouble." You're not in trouble just because a government employee says so (or looks at you funny). We do have a bill of rights, you know.
From TFA: "In the end, I feel my privacy is a small price to pay for educating the government about the medium." No one of any importance was "educated." No policy is likely to be changed as a result of this incident; law-abiding citizens are still going to be stopped in airports for carrying 'strange' books, scripts, magazines, etc. All this shows is that TSA agents can act in an arbitrary manner with repercussions.
well yeah, because it's perfectly reasonable that a search for drugs, weapons, and explosives would include reading through business papers. seriously, did they think this guys journal pages were laced with ricin? just what would be the justification for needing to read through my notebook before letting me on a plane?
do not read this line twice.
I have to ask: what led him to be flagged in the first place? Why did they search him twice and THEN find the script? Could this be "free publicity by TSA"? I think I'll patent it.
Step 1: write obscure work that might never see the light of day
Step 2: do something on purpose to draw suspicion of TSA and get handled in a way I can complain about
Step 3: complain to Slashdot
Step 4: profit! (and publicity)
...perhaps the TSA employees aren't the only ones incapable of detecting the irony...
There was a recent news item (can't recall if it was /. or FreeRepublic) noting that one of Ron Paul's people was detained by TSA for carrying $4700 cash (sales of T-shirts, stickers, etc. from a convention) and managed to record the whole incident. Sounds like Comic Book Guy needs to contact him and work on filing a joint suit.
Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
So far, the larger part of the comments here have dealt with the fact that this might be a scam.
IMHO, it's probably not. If you've heard some of the stupid shit from cops and other government bureaus that I have, this is right up their alley. Remember - these guys by and large aren't really trying to do the job they say they're out to do. And they're nowhere near as competent and knowledgeable as they imagine they are. I've been told before that the fact that the devil chicks I have tattooed on my forearms have some meaning in these exact words : "Don't think we don't know what those horns mean! We're not stupid!". Uh, yes, you are. They're devil chicks. What, you expect them to be wearing garland wreaths on their heads? Get real. There is no hidden meaning behind that, and I know what most gang and prison-related tattoos in Texas mean.
If you're a chickenhawk bureaucrat on a power trip, who are you likely to pick out as a target? A comic book artist? Or someone who does have actual ties to known and dangerous terrorist organizations? Let me repeat that, just in case you missed it : known and dangerous. Despite all the spoon-fed drivel that gets funnelled straight into your living room, courtesy of your brand-new digital TV, these guys are bureaucrats. They don't want to break a sweat, let alone get their asses shot off or some other form of retaliation. They're not heroes, except the extremely rare exception (think about it - you hear ten times as many stories about cops shooting unarmed civilians as you do an armed civilian shooting a cop...yet the cop is always painted as the "hero who died in the line of duty"; generally through their own stupidity, like not searching someone they just antagonized and arrested...now if the supposedly unbiased news puts those figures forth, what do you think the real numbers are?). They don't go out of their way or risk their lives to protect citizens. They don't do anything other than collect their check, do as little as possible, and then go home to fuck their middle-class fat-arsed wives and scream at their subnormal children. If they can skip out on doing their "duty" for a few hours by harassing some artist whom they had to have known has no affiliation or even a tenuous connection within an hour, you bet your bottom dollar they will be doing just that for as long as they can.
And a cavity search? Oh, I'd love to see those fuckers try that one of me. You ain't getting my clothes off unless you've already arrested me and have me full restraints (which makes it pretty hard to get someone's clothes off without cutting them off). Because I can and will fight, and there's only so many people that can gang up on one man, and that is not enough to get my clothes off me without beating me unconscious, which is pretty hard to do. Oh, sure, I'll get some kind of charge slapped on me. But you know what - it's not resisting arrest or assault if there's nothing to arrest you for!
You, as a society, have become sheep. And you have chosen wolves to protect you. Is it any wonder that the herd gets culled by their so-called guardians quite often? Here's Tom with the weather...
PC moderators can suck my White pierced, tattooed dick. If you think pride == hate, s/dick/Aryan meat mallet/g.
Thanks for the flamebait -mod, whoever that was =p I was asking for it, y'know..
Seriously, it's a forum for opinions, and this one was mine. I do see (and agree) with the viewpoint of the responses my post generated. But, this is our current state of affairs, that was my point.
-Troll, Flamebait, and Offtopic are NOT equivalent to disagreement.
They tricked him (dropped him early or whatever).
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Jessica Fletcher was played by Angela Lansbury.
I don't think this a troll. I agree 100%.
Who at this point hasn't been detained and had their stuff rummaged through?
I had to unpack a carry on full of crystal glassware (wedding gifts) while all of my other belongings were held on to by security simply because when asked if I had packed the bag I stupidly said no my wife did.
All in all I was "detained" for 20 minutes. But I made my flight with little more than some inconvenience.
If anything I was more wronged than this guy was. But I don't have a comic to sell so chances of my story hitting the slashdot front page are close to nil.
Sounds like in this guys case the airport folks found something worth checking out and were just being thorough.
Had the guy actually been a terrorist and it became leaked to the public that the guy walked right on board with the plans tweaked to look like a "work in progress comic book" people would be flaming air port security for being so naive.
It's not persecution and you can't have it both ways guys.
The guy is being a cry baby and getting alot of publicity for his comic by doing it.
Economist Steven Levitt also had an interesting story of how he almost got arrested because he bought a last min one-way flight, and that he carried research paper on terrorist activities:
I almost got sent to Guantanamo
By Steven D. Levitt
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2005/07/14/i-almost-got-sent-to-guantanamo/
Well, if I recall correctly, Explosive Runes is only a second level spell...
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
While it is sad that he'd have been forced to go through the humiliation and embarassment of being questioned/searched/etc.. but honestly.. who in their right mind would carry something like a terror script through airport screening? Comic book, hell.. it could've been a movie script and he would've received the same response.
In short: He was asking for it. No.. he was begging.
So someone brings a DVD of Executive Decision through security. Are they 'asking for it?'
Drill baby drill - on Mars
RTFA,
He was allowed to carry it with him. He just needed to be ready to explain it and they just needed to be sufficiently sure that's all it was before letting his ass on a plane with 60 other people.
The sensationalism of slashdot never ceases to amaze me.
Even if this guy was setting up a publicity stunt, the TSA agents were absolute idiots for even giving a commercial publication a second notice as evidence against the carrier.
Meanwhile, the real terrorists carried full tactical nukes in the carry on luggage.
Would require TSA agents to be literate.
"Offtopic" or "troll" would have been more appropriate.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
You're missing the train of thought the TSA employee went through.
1) The was information.
2) Information is Knowledge.
3) Knowledge is Power.
4) Power Corrupts.
5) Power is dangerous to a Plane in operation (it could blow up the fuel tank).
6) Corruption is dangerous to a Plane in operation (it could cause a wing to fall off or the fuselage to break apart).
7) Information is therefore dangerous to a Plane in operation since it is both Power and Corrupting.
QED This so called "Writer" was attempting to smuggle a WMD onto a plane and should be treated accordingly.
~
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
That's my first question. Of all the times I've been through security, they scan/x-ray/etc, but don't take the time to read notes...that'd take too much time, holding up others.
I have a lot of questions about this, but for starters here is one. What did the "script" look like? Was it simply a blue book or loose leaf note book written in crayon (not likely I know; or was it more like the formatted output from a printer? What did it say on the front (if anything); something like "Unthinkable" on the front and a if the first few pages described what a terrorist should do to commit an unthinkable act I can see how this might make a TSA guy think it was worth a second look. Next I want to know just how long this guy was "detained"? If he was able to make his flight it does not seem like such a big deal to me. I have been "detained" by TSA guys while I had to boot my laptop and they put their grubby paws on my DSLR. Not to say it was enjoyable and I certainly was not impressed when a female TSA agent looked through the view finder of my DSLR and said this is OK, it is a camera; because the lens cap was still on and she had no way of knowing if the camera was bogus or not. But the bottom line was I was able to get on my flight on time, even if there were finger prints on my camera and laptop. If this guy made his flight it looks more like a PR stunt than something we should gripe about. And I do find it strange no one seems to care if he made his flight or not.
Those who forget history are condemned to go to summer school.
While it is sad that he'd have been forced to go through the humiliation and embarassment of being questioned/searched/etc.. but honestly.. who in their right mind would carry something like a terror script through airport screening? Comic book, hell.. it could've been a movie script and he would've received the same response.
In short: He was asking for it. No.. he was begging.
While it is sad that she'd have been forced to go through the humiliation and embarassment of being raped/beaten/etc.. but honestly.. who in their right mind would wear something like a mini skirt to a frat party? Skirt, hell.. it could've been a tight blouse and she would've received the same response.
In short: She was asking for it. No.. she was begging.
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
Wow, you sound like you're mighty anxious to lube up and bend over for your TSA overlords. Make sure your amyl is in a 3oz or less container, though, or you're in for a rough ride, cowboy.
Keep in mind that these are the same folks that tried to take away a Congressional Medal of Honor 'cause its sharp and pointy...
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
... he had not started to write (and therefore would have been carrying around) his new comic story about a trio of bumbling TSA agents that are always screwing up everything.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
He got tagged for a more thorough search. It must've been the TSA's new un-American script radars. He got searched. They found a script. They read it. They let him go. Did I miss anything?
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
What justification?
How about meeting your monthly detention quota for a bonus, or possibly overtime! You really think such things AREN'T in place at the TSA?
Fascism has dipped it's finger in the American pie, and it's looking for more than just a taste.
Airport security workers work for about U.S. $ 7.50 per hour.
You pay for what you get: amateurs.
Yours In Communism,
K. Trout, PatRIOT
I don't want it both ways. I'd sooner have people flaming airport security than preventing their liberty.
when you figure out how to have a human society without the need for police, get back to us. until then, your rant speaks more to your psychological problems than any valid observation of reality
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
You don't need a think tank to come up with fantastic ideas, plans and scenarios. All you need is your brain and Creator Studio creative thinking software http://www.compxpressinc.com
It's a book. OMG. A book. I can murder people by slicing and hacking at their throats with this razor thin page. Nevermind the fact it'll take me the entire FUCKING flight to do it. Oh wait, maybe I can set fire to the book, oh but wait, I could do that to the SkyMall magazine too, and I left my prohibited lighters and matches at home like a good sky-traveller. But WAIT! I could tear the covers off and rub them together really fast and maybe make a spark! Oh, but I'll probably just get bored and watch the Hulk and Stepmom on the in-flight movie instead. Or maybe that cute chick will let me just use her left boob as a pillow.
Artist with a script for a comic book dealing with 9/11 type scenarios ....
Detained by TSA for 'safety' reasons
Terrorists with boxcutters ....
allowed onto plane without security check, bumped up to first class
Now THAT's the irony of the situation. I can still get a knife, gun, bomb type equipment, nuclear material .... you name it and someone can still smuggle it onto a plane, but a script for a comic book, better stop right there buddy.
Are you at all surprised that they want to get into your laptop/cellphone/ipod?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I have always been politely asked as if my bag could be searched. And knowing I have nothing to hide, I always say yes. Knowing one of two things can happen, I get escorted out, or taken to the secure room. If I ever felt inclined, I'd have no fear of that, but I always make it clear that I carry lots of expensive cameras and if they're going to search it, I'm going to help them, as I wouldn't want them to be responsible for $3000 cameras getting broken.
I've never had a single one rebuff me. I accidently left a 3" folding Kabar on my bag once (twice - it was black and blends into the straps), and I've been subjected to a lot more scrutiny since. But I'm always polite, and since I'm the typically white male yuppy traveller, I don't get much extra hassle. Maybe I'm just lucky.
The first time I forget the knife the screener wouldn't let me touch it in the secure area, but let me leave so I could ship it home. He asked me, "You know I could have you arrested for this, right?" I just sighed and said, "You gotta do what you have to man." 20 minutes later he was reinspecting the bag extra well, and I got through okay.
The second time, I remembered it just as I was about to put it through the xray machine. I told them I'd surrender it there, as I was close to missing my flight. They put it in one of those change holders and sent it through anyway. Then a couple of them got into a discussion over whether I had to be written up, but the dude in charge said that since I surrendered it voluntarily, I could go on my way. But I still get selected every time I fly.
The most aggressive search I ever had was coming back from Jamaica out of Montego Bay. They had my backpack ALL unpacked searching the seams (my Boble*be has metal bands for seams and bolts) . Go figure I waltzed right through customs too.
Name. Age. DOB. Anything to Declare? Have a nice day.
I must say I've been a lucky traveller.
Yes, I know. I go on daily walks and inevitably, I pass a dog confined behind a fence all day. The dog barks at me, as if to say, "Wait! Wait! You're the most exciting thing that's happened here all day! Hey! Where are you going? Come back here!"
What you describe is that one man's inconvenience is another man's treasure, so to speak. It's kind of like that.
The diversity and expression of human opinion is essential to human survival.
You are obviously correct because terrorists are so dumb that they are can not memorize their plans. I mean, the only way they can possibly remember out is to tatoo the plans on the chest and try to board the plane without a shirt.
The real smart ones, on the other hand, try to board the plane with a folder with the following large size capital letters: TERROR PLANS - NOT TO BE SHOWN TO TSA AGENTS.
If these guys went after people like these there would never be terrorist attacks anywhere. Avoiding terrorism is so easy...
First Amendment! They shouldn't have even read it.
If somebody was smuggling a bunch of documents onto airplane describing how to blow it up, wouldn't you, as an employee whose job it is to understand how people might blow up airplanes, want to have a look?
This is my sig.
Law enforcement generally breaks down into two types - reactive and preventative enforcement. Reactive is pretty simple. Someone gets killed, law enforcement shows up, collects evidence, figures out whodunit, and (tries to) capture the killer. Preventative enforcement is harder and more intrusive on civil liberties because you have to apply it to everyone, not just suspects. Sobriety checks to catch drunk drivers before they kill anyone, laws to prevent convicted criminals or mentally unstable individuals from buying guns, getting your luggage x-rayed and searched at airports, etc.
The monkey wrench in the works is the suicide bomber mentality. Prior to 9/11, the assumption was that a terrorist had a sense of self-preservation. So we made sure to match up luggage with passengers on the plane, asked people if they'd received any last-minute gifts from acquaintances before boarding, etc. all based on the theory that the terrorist didn't himself want to die. But if the terrorist is willing to die in the act, then most of the detectable intermediate steps between planning a terrorist act and carrying it out disappear. So your preventative options are limited to catching the terrorist in the process of carrying it out (like the passengers and crew tackled Richard Reid, aka the shoe bomber, whom we now have to thank for having our shoes x-rayed at security). Or catching him while he's planning it with only information on his person.
Personally, the number of people killed by terrorism compared to, say, traffic accidents is so minuscule that I think the magnitude of our reaction to the problem is a waste of time and money. I suspect a lot of people in law enforcement feel the same way - they'd rather be on the street combating everyday crime, rather than the 1 in a million terrorist. But the general public seems to want that level of preventative enforcement against terrorism (or at least the majority haven't complained about it vocally). And I've yet to see an alternative method of preventative enforcement which avoids the possibility of infringing on the civil liberties of innocents.
This is his first ammendment right. We now completely ignore our heritage and founding, with our current government pushing us towards socialism. Isn't life grand these days?
He should have written them in another language so they couldnt read them..............Arabic for instance.
http://avaxhome.ws/magazines/comics/unthinkable_1_of_5_ongoing.html
then you frame your objections in terms of the need to clean things up, not rail against in general
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
People really need to know what a true right-wing ideology means (and the last administration was not right-wing in anything but their self-given name.)
A true right-winger abhors authority and embraces personal responsibility. I'm considered strongly-conservative, and I would like to see the smallest, least-powerful government the American people can possibly get away with. "That government which governs best, governs least."
Life, the Universe, and Everything... in my image.
Lighters are no longer prohibited.
I was once one of those people who had exceptionally broad rights to conduct searches. As a military officer, I could, in theory, have searched a whole barracks full of the personal effects of a whole company of enlisted soldiers for a single stolen item. But before they would have turned me loose to do that, even as a raw Lieutenant, the government made it very clear that there was paperwork that had to be kept on record, documenting the steps of the search AND what other steps were taken to solve the crime before command decided a search was necessary. They made it clear that I had to deliver a Miranda warning (and the military form of the Miranda actually explains more rights than the Civil form.). They made it clear that the decision to authorize a search was limited to command personnel and not staff officers/staff NCOs, and why.
If I was supposed to be searching for a stolen boom-box, I had to have a good description, and not search inside anything too small to hold that boom-box. Even if I thought I smelled dope (and I've been to a controlled burn and can claim legally to know what Pot smells like), I couldn't act on it (beyond mentioning the scent to the owner of that gear, as in "Smells like pot - I hope you wouldn't mess with that stuff. - You know it's illegal and they can throw you out of the Army if you do - oh well, I'm just here to look for a boom-box.).
If I could be held to that standard 20 years ago, when dealing with people who had agreed to give up some of their rights as a condition of enlistment, and to be bound by a special set of laws (The Uniform Code of Military Justice), I have to wonder why on Earth the US citizenry allows the present situation.
Who is John Cabal?
Here's another unverified TSA horror story that made the rounds on the Internet last year. I first found the story on the L.A. Times website, and it was just copied from there a hundred times. Nobody's come up with any news report or documents from the timeframe when the incident was supposed to have taken place:
Zimerman has had problems in the United States in recent years. He travels with his own Steinway piano, which he has altered himself. But shortly after 9/11, the instrument was confiscated at JFK Airport when he landed in New York to give a recital at Carnegie Hall. "Thinking the glue smelled funny, the TSA decided to take no chances and destroyed the instrument."
Bullshit. There is certainly a class of behaviors which, while legally in your rights, are in bad taste or otherwise baiting, like insulting someone's mother. Would you then complain after getting socked in the face that you were just exercising your right to free speech? Doubtful. You would complain that the response was out of proportion to your incitement. And you would've been wiser not to incite in the first place.
I don't mean to say that there isn't such a thing as civil disobedience or trying to gain publicity for a cause, but sometimes being a jerk is just being a jerk. I don't think Sable in this case actually was "asking for it", nor do I think "it" amounted to that much, but if he were instead just mouthing off to the TSA drones, we should be able to say that he should've known better.
...I'm sure this will help the sale of his comic book. I'm calling BS on this one.
For those of us who watched 'The Lone Gunmen' live or on DVD, you may recall that the pilot episode has the government conspiring to fly a jet airliner in to the World Trade Center. One of the Lone Gunmen is on said plane while the other two are on a computer network trying to override the 'evil government agent's actions to remotely control the plane to crash in to the building. Whenever I watch this episode on DVD it is rather chill-instilling, so close to home (They don't crash, they *just* miss hitting the building).
The REAL irony of this is that this episode aired 6 months BEFORE 9/11. So, should the TSA / NSA / FBI / Secret Service / Homeland Security / NTSB or some 'Men in Black' group go and arrest and detain the writers and producers (perhaps even the evil actors?) of this episode for doing something that *clearly* influenced the terrorists to do the deed for real?
The thought police are here...think happy thoughts...think happy thoughts!
I'll sit in the peanut gallery at your trial for kicking and punching the cops while you were resisting arrest. I'll bring popcorn. You can't have any of it.
... you know, in retaliation for false charges of trying to blow up planes or fly them into buildings?
Think about it.
You are being detained.
You are not charged with a crime.
You are free to go.
Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to use any force necessary to secure your freedom to go, including blowing up the airport... er the part you're not in... like maybe by remotely detonating the ANFO in the trunk of your parked car by not making the cell phone call to stop it.
Pity about the collateral damage, of course. Innocents getting killed and all. But, really, people should expect that sort of thing when they go somewhere where people are detained illegally.
The "general public" was never asked to vote on such matters. The closest that We the People ever got to this state of affairs was to try to elect what we thought were sensible people to Congress, and the better of the two choices we had for President. Now the law is in the hands of lawyers paid by everyone BUT the general public, judges who were put into office by the aforementioned Congress and President (All elected judges are subservient to the appointed judges.), and by airline corporate policies and lobbyists, who obviously are only interested in profit.
Now while I agree with you that the effort that is put into thwarting airline terrorists are ludicrous and overbearing, please don't blame them on the "general public". I'm pretty sure that given the choice, the "general public" would vote for something a little bit less invasive than what we have now.
Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
If the person who hypothetically socked me were a private citizen, no big deal. If they were acting as agents of the state, then yeah, I'd be pissed(unless they were treated exactly as a private citizen would be under the circumstances, and appropriately punished for any use of state power to achieve their personal ends). Obviously, being an asshole has its consequences, humans being social organisms; but when somebody is exercising state power, it is wholly reasonable to demand that they do so without regard to legal provocation, and punish or replace them if they can't handle it.
You realize that plenty of (civilian) members of the national security establishment might also carry such papers. Would you also have them detained by airport security? How about a writer with a script describing Dr Horrific's new Super-Mega-Ultra Bomb(tm), with which he plans to destroy the world!! Should he be detained for carrying that, too?
Right... because left-wingers (*coughSovietscough*) are never authoritarian.
Harassing law-abiding people since 2001.
Number of terrorists caught by TSA: 0
Number of people unlawfully detained, searched, and interrogated by TSA: thousands.
TSA: we purposely hire incompetent morons just to make your traveling experience a little more hellish.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, re Voltaire
I don't. I've been on a plane once since 9/11, and I won't be doing it again, at least, not until the TSA is gone.
you don't believe that the situation can be improved
police abuse can be improved, and has improved historically. compare the bullshit cops in the 1800s got away with and what they get away with today. not that something like the abner louima case isn't modern and horrifying, but there aren't abner louimas happening every week
you have a nihilistic empty view of humanity. improvement is historically real. we have a long way to go, and its difficult, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. admit to that simple truth, or follow your mindless pointlessness and hopelessness to its inevitable conclusion and go swallow a shotgun
i object to and categorically reject your attitude. its hysterical teenage bullshit. grow the fuck up, please
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Unless there's a way to blow up the aircraft with said papers their content shouldn't matter.
If the papers suggest or expose a conspiracy to blow up a plane they do matter. The examiner isn't obliged to take your word at face value.
Don't bother trying to explain that around here. These intelligent, thoughtful liberals can't see past their own hatred of Bush enough to understand.
You're tough on the internet, but I bet when you're in line at the airport you're too afraid to even whisper your snide asides.
I don't agree. If someone had details on how they were going to commit an attack, and you were on that flight, wouldn't you at least want them to check up on that information to see if you were at risk. I guess I don't feel too sorry for the guy. He could have just had it on a computer or something.
Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
you are suspicious until proven harmless... THIS TIME. so you need to get on www.tsa.gov and find out what raises their neck hairs before you pack. anything you bring is subject to search.
could be worse. for over 30 years, you fly on El Al, it's a total hand search of everything, in the line. of course, the Israleis have reason to be that paranoid.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Well, that's true, but considering that these guys couldn't be more than first level, it would be rather suicidal if you had prepared explosive runes that morning.
... when employees of the TSA are allowed to be so completely full of themselves and their imagined importance that abuses like this routinely happen. There's nothing more malicious and mean-spirited than the BOTTOM RUNG of an authoritarian regime (like the TSA): the people on that lowest rung act out that authoritarian schtick in the worst possible way with people who are, if not completely innocent, certainly not deserving of the abuse of power.
What exactly will be the consequences of this abuse of power for the TSA employees involved? You already know the answer, don't you? NOTHING. No consequences at all... unless it becomes a huge public scandal and scapegoats must be habeas-corpused. That's a key tenet of a police state: the authorities and enforcers are not held to the same standards of behavior as those they are tasked to judge. We see the same thing in the corporate world as well in many cases.
So yeah, this really is the early stages of a police state. What are we gonna DO about it? Hint: electing a smooth talker like Obama isn't doing something about it.
or rather it's last page - I actually had the German translation of that issue since somewhere in the mid-nineties... :D
np: Whitetree - Tangerine (Cloudland)
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
I hate security theater as much as any of us. But what if this were the scenario:
TSA: Sorry, I need to check your bag. What's this? Hey, neat, a script! What're you writing about?
Sable: It's a story about how people like you are humiliating innocent travelers for your own petty power trips.
TSA: ...
I mean, I'm willing to give Mr. Sable the benefit of the doubt. I think it's unprofessional to respond to snipes and jabs. But this is the TSA we're talking about. Did he poke the bear?
Towards the Singularity.
if no one believes corruption can be fixed, corruption is the status quo
if people demand corruption be fixed, it tends to get a little more fixed
of course corruption is never going to go away. no fucking shit. this isn't a revelation. but to keep it at a minimum, it also must not be accepted
"Not everyone is on a crusade to improve reality. It is unreasonable to expect or demand everyone to work to improve reality."
you actually described everyone. we all have tolerance levels for certain levels of bullshit, then we get outraged. my assertion is that those with a high level of tolerance for bullshit ("they stuck a toilet plunger up his ass? oh well, whatever") are complicit with those who do real evil in this world. such heavy handed condemnation is of course not suitable for people who tolerate low level crime, but you need to draw the line somewhere. you do draw the line somewhere, right?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
If they have the power of arrest, they're government. Anyway, any of these theories will soon be tested in a suit brought by the ACLU and Campaign for Liberty staffer Steve Bierfeldt:
CNN Covers Unlawful Detention Of Steve Bierfeldt Of Campaign For Liberty
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
It isn't supposed to be a search for drugs, they are not on the list of things prohibited by the FAA, illegal certianly but the TSA are not in fact law enforcement. They have the right to alert law enforcement if they see drugs the same way you are free to report illegal activity to the police but searching for them is not part of their mandate, neither is searching through someone's private papers, counting their cash, checking the photos on their digital camera...
Narrator: There are Pretenders among us.
Jarod: I was taken from my family ...I've spent every moment searching for my past.
[a child genius]
Young Sydney: Thirty-six hours and he's already demonstrating more talent than any of our others.
[exploited by the Centre]
Jarod: How many people died because of what I thought up?
Jarod: Since I broke out...
[escaped]
Jarod:
[title logo:] [the pretender]
Miss Parker: He's a Pretender, a genius who can become anyone that he wants to be.
Sydney: The Centre wants him alive.
Miss Parker: "Preferably".
Miss Parker: He defends the weak and abused....
Jarod: Life's a gift.
Hospital patient: Are you a doctor?
Jarod: I am today.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
The Reichstag fire occurred in a Germany that had seen years of continuous street battles, protests and political fracas between communist and fascist militias. Moreover, the Nazi's had preached for years about remaking Germany in a new fascist image. Top top it off, the crackdown following the fire was blunt and direct, and it would take the Nazi's years of gradual legislation to remould Germany completely.
By contrast, after September 11th, it took the US less than a month to invade another country. Within two months, the sweeping PATRIOT Act did more and lasting damage to US freedoms than any Reichstag decree. It took the Nazi's two months to open the Dachau concentration camp, but it only took the US 27 days to open Guantanamo.
The Reichstag fire took place in a time of political upheaval, economic depression, civil anarchy and with Germany utterly downtrodden after defeat in the first World War. September 11th took place in a climate of stable government, favorable economic climate, domestic calm and with the US in a historically unprecendented position of unipolar, worldwide supremacy. Yet the reaction of the US was faster, harsher and wider in scope than any of the early day Nazi crackdowns.
I stand by my point. Americans are tightly wound, and have and will embrace a mob mentality with a swiftness and zeal that is rarely, if ever, seen in other nations. Americans will of course be the first to deny this, but the irony is that their fervent belief in innate American freedom is exactly what has lead to their great complacency in the face of encroaching tyranny.
May the Maths Be with you!
tried to explain to them the irony of the situation.
Was this guy trying to make it harder on himself? People like that will rarely have the brains to understand the irony, and if they do, they're going to be even more ticked off for you having made them look silly or stupid.
mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
I had a similar experience when I was in high school. We lived in Zambia and I went to an American curriculum boarding school in Kenya. At the end of my school break, I went for what was supposed to be a 4 day backpacking trip by myself. The first night, I was accosted at my campsite by two drunk guys claiming to be police. After harassing them for a while (remember that I was young, cocky and naive) I asked to see their paperwork if they were actually police officers. Sure enough they were, and next thing I knew I was under arrest. They went through my belongings and saw that I had a camera with no film. They claimed I was a South African spy who was coming to take photos of a microwave station 4km away. They said I'd thrown away the film when I saw them coming. I tried to explain that the camera was broken and was my only clock, but they didn't believe me.
They took me to their commanding officer, who had no idea what to do with a 17 year old Canadian in the middle of nowhere in Zambia. He went through my belongings again, and discovered documentation explaining how quickly armies can move through a country, how far airplanes can do an airstrike, how many tanks it takes to overrun a batallion of soldiers, etc. I had been planning my war simulation video game for next term's computer science project and had all the paperwork with me. This was 1991 so the police officer had never seen, let alone used, a computer, so any explanation went completely over his head. My explanation about how if the South African government wanted photos of their stupid satellite dishes they'd just take them FROM a satellite went similarly over their head but did serve to prove to them that I was probably a spy since I knew so much about this sort of thing.
I was then shipped back to Lusaka, the capital city and thrown in jail. The jail consisted of 3 rooms. Two were crammed so full of people that there was not even space against the wall for everyone. The third was used as a toilet. There was no food or water provided, and no phone call allowed, so if nobody knew you were there and you didn't make friends you were in big trouble. Fortunately I had several days' worth of food with me in my backpack so I shared that around and made lots of friends.
Around 10:30 the next morning I was summoned again in front of some more important-looking people. They went through my belongings again, and grilled me for a long time about my "secret documents" and the extra damaging evidence of a filmless camera.
Fortunately, eventually common sense prevailed and they decided that a 17 year old Canadian was unlikely to be travelling alone through the bush to take pictures of some random satellite dishes for the South African government. They let me call someone up and sent me away.
My life these days is decidedly less exciting.
www.clarke.ca
Just as with Iran, North Korea, and that African state with that cruel leader (forgot his name).
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
> Personally, the number of people killed by terrorism compared to,
> say, traffic accidents is so minuscule that I think the magnitude
> of our reaction to the problem is a waste of time and money.
You'd be right, except for the fact that you've missed an important point.
If the purpose of airport security were to prevent a few deaths, then you'd be absolutely right: our time and money would be MUCH better spent putting a few extra patrol cars on the highways just to be seen and thus remind drivers that speed limits exist. (There are other things that could be done too, but just this would quite easily prevent more deaths than the TSA.)
But the thing is, people drive so much, so often, they've become numb to the risk. People aren't afraid to drive. They go ahead and hop in the car and go wherever they're going, without thinking about the risk.
The same is not true of planes. Even before 9/11, a lot of people were fairly nervous about flying; after 9/11, a LOT of people were afraid to fly, and even now a fair percentage of people who don't fly very often are still pretty on edge about it.
We could say, "if people are afraid to fly, that's their problem; rational people aren't afraid to fly, so meh". But the rational people and frequent fliers would be paying more for tickets then (among other things). Flight is more economic when you can fill up the plane, and that means you do need some of those infrequent fliers.
It's been a couple of years now, and I suspect the actual need for airport security has dwindled now to the point where it would be possible to gradually phase out most of the more time-consuming stuff and work our way back toward an rational and efficient process.
But in 2002, the TSA was definitely needed, to get people flying again.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
No shit:
...and I left my prohibited lighters and matches at home like a good sky-traveller.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
You see? Condoleeza Rice was right - nobody could have predicted that terrorists would fly planes into buildings. Well, except the scriptwriters on "The Lone Gunmen" . . .
Ask Me About... The 80's!
I think the thought process of a typical TSA agent is more along the line of...
1) I'm Hungry.
2) Is my supervisor watching me?
3) I better look busy.
4) Let's search this guy's stuff again.
5) I'm Hungry.
6) Hey a Comic Book.
7) Hmmm big words in here for a comic book.
8) Wait it says 911! Power Tripping Time!
I carry a copy of 1984 in my backpack. It's always fun seeing how TSA employees react when they pull it out. I've gotten, "Ahhh, that's a good book" a few times.
While I agree that the TSA completely screwed this up.
The author is an idiot for bringing that kind of material along with him.
When traveling by air, which I do only when it's absolutely required, I ship my luggage ahead of time to my hotel.
All I carry with me is my wallet, passport, and keys.
My cellphone, pocket knife, and media player all stay at home where they can't be stolen, searched, or "lost".
Do I think it's reasonable to have to do this? Hell, no.
Do I think it's worth not being hassled? Hell, yes.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_US_states_is_Fellatio_illegal_in
Unfortunately, dear sir, "fucking business" is their business too, even when it doesn't involve "fucking" per se, and if the goons in Florida hear you tell someone that you got a blowjob this morning, they are still LEGALLY within their rights to book your sorry, trendy-comic-book-writing ass down to the cells. Have fun while you're there.
The USA - land of the "free" and home of the "brave" - except when it comes to standing up for my own rights, in which case, I'll just roll over and play puppy so I can catch my flight. And they call ME an anonymous coward ....
Wait, TSA officials actually think? I thought they were just mindless cogs in a system...
Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
Historically, you are wrong.
The term comes from the Frankfurt Parliament of 1848, where the "democratic" factions desiring democratic government similar to the United States sat on the left, "liberal" (personal freedoms and moderate change) sat in the middle and "conservatives" wanting to retain authoritarian rule aristocrats sat on the right.
The right wing is therefore authoritarian, desiring a strong ruler. The Bush administration was therefore very right-wing, and your view is one that could be considered liberal under the way the rest of the world understands these terms. The same could be said for the actions of the TSA, performing in a very authoritarian way in trying to suppress criticism with as much zeal as they are supposed to be doing their job (which is to provide for the safety of travellers).
Actually, I think you're also committing the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy, but I this is not the place for prolonged debate about that.
ideas are bulletproof. V.
MP3 Search Engine
It's not as simple as left/right - the division into authoritarian/libertarian is independent of "wingedness". You need something like the Political Compass to see the full picture:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Every computer contains rips and unauthorized software. Pencils are stolen from work. The book is overdue from the library. The ID card overstates height and understates weight. The airplane is a trysting place for mile high clubs for the unmarried or other married. It's a wonder that more of these criminal stories aren't reported.
...Writer detained for possessing "harmful materials" while real terrorist plans actual harm. Clueless TSA Agents FTL!
Wow, circle, I missed this post. You almost prove my points here, in your naive and insulting manner (telling people who disagree with you that they're full of teenage bullshit and need to grow the fuck up suggests to me that they are not the ones who need to grow up). Also, capital letters, punctuation, and proper grammar would go a long way towards establishing your credentials as a cognizant adult.
Let's address each of these statements, in a slightly different light.
if no one believes corruption can be fixed, corruption is the status quo
And what exactly are you doing to fix it? I have already stated what I am doing to fix it. I can't change the world, but I can choose how I live. If everyone else stood by their principles, then corruption would not be the status quo!
if people demand corruption be fixed, it tends to get a little more fixed
And when those demands are ignored? What will you do then? When you ask the wolves to not take your child to jail because he or she wanted to smoke a joint while out on a date, or because they missed a court appearance, or because the "officer" in question just didn't like the way they looked, do you think that demand will be heeded? If you do, then you are the fool here. You can demand all you want, but if you lack the courage to stand up and do something, if you cannot live your life in such a way that you provide an example for others, what good do your feeble demands actually do?
It took nothing short of the ACLU, NAACP, and a few other organizations suing the shit out of Harris County, Texas (which Houston is in, my home town) just to get the county to clean and disinfect the jail about 3-4 years ago (it was so filthy and overcrowded that half the inmates had staph infections, people were dying from improper medical treatment, and even if you were bonded out in 24 hours, you more than likely caught staph just from sitting on the concrete waiting for the lazy bastards to handle your paperwork). Yet when I was falsely arrested (all charges dismissed, but I still had to spend over 7000 USD on bail and a lawyer) about 9 months ago, the same conditions had returned. Luckily, I didn't catch staph that time. But I did get to watch another inmate in my holding tank go into convulsions and die after repeatedly informing the guards that he had a medical condition that required treatment, and they refused to even let him talk to a nurse. I was one of the people who dragged him off the table he fell onto when he seized up, so I was asked my name (probably because I was one of the few White guys in the tank, and heavily tattooed to boot, so it was easy for them to remember me). Needless to say, I made it clear that if they wanted me to give a statement, I would tell anyone exactly what happened, including their negligence. Also needless to say, I haven't heard from them yet, nor do I expect to. Guilty until proven innocent, right? Except this fellow got the death penalty before he even got a bond hearing. How you like them apples? I picked up the paper and read an article about the rising number of inmate deaths due to improper medical conditions and "accidents" just last month.
So much for corruption being a "little more fixed", eh?
of course corruption is never going to go away...it also must not be accepted
Oh, really? I gave you the answer to the first part of this statement above. The second part of this statement...well, in Texas, we call that "crawfishing". Back-pedalling. While I would sincerely like to believe that you magically grew a spine in a few hours, I think you're just conceding defeat in the best manner possible. Saving face.
So, I ask you again : what are you going to do about it?
we all have tolerance levels for certain levels of bullshit, then we get outraged
Well, yours must be remarkably high. Eithe
PC moderators can suck my White pierced, tattooed dick. If you think pride == hate, s/dick/Aryan meat mallet/g.
except that politicalcompass.org has its centre so far off the real world-wide view of centre that the results are laughable.
Except, of course, that I'm referring to the terms as they are used in the United States, where, traditionally, the Democrats have sat on the left side of the house of Representatives, while the Republicans have sat on the right side. In the United States, the terms take their meaning from that division.
In that case, we have the traditional "Progressive" ideology, who believe in government control of the economy, spreading "fairness", and providing social safety nets sitting in the "Left-Wing" and the party that believes (or used to believe -- gosh I wish I still had a party) in the "conservation of the founding principles" or the "conservative" view of small government, self reliance, and laissez-faire capitalism. Thus, the right-wingers.
The same terms have arisen several times in history as far as left-wing and right-wing are concerned. This "opposite" view of the terms from the United States is why we often have trouble with understanding why other countries call their labor/labour/socialist parties the "Right-Wing".
Now, of course, the U.S. Congress consists of the Left-Wing and the "Even More" Left-Wing. So really the point is moot.
Life, the Universe, and Everything... in my image.
Yeah, I've been to one of those. Pink Floyd's Division Bell tour, Giants Stadium....good times, good times.....
Oh you said controlled....my bad.
Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
"I have to wonder why on Earth the US citizenry allows the present situation."
Because we don't have any choice. We're always outnumbered by sheepizens who already sold out their liberty for false assurances of safety. Our only option is to spend eight years and a million bucks losing in the Supreme Court, where Reagan/Bush/Bush appointees have suspended the Constitution.
Never flying to the USA I can understand, assuming that Work was planning to send me there. But I don't understand why you'd object to flying to Iran (apart from the fact that it's a Gulf state with Gulf-state-shitty weather along the Gulf-coast) or North Korea (too hot in summer, too dreich in winter) if the opportunity to work there arose.
I can't work out which African state you're referring to. Could you narrow it down to a couple of dozen possibilities? Actually, excluding those that don't have a clear leader ... nope I still can't narrow it down enough.
I wouldn't consider any of them for a holiday destination though. Why would you go through the hell of flying unless someone was paying you good money? Well, actually ... Tanzania wasn't that bad. And no further than the Gulf. But I still wouldn't seriously consider going there for a break - too stressful.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"