Korean DDoS Bots To Self-Destruct

tsu doh nimh writes "Several news sources are reporting that the tens of thousands of Microsoft Windows systems infected with the Mydoom worm and being used in an ongoing denial of service attack against US and S. Korean government Web sites will likely have their hard drives wiped of data come Friday. From The Washington Post's Security Fix blog, the malware is 'designed to download a payload from a set of Web servers. Included in that payload is a Trojan horse program that overwrites the data on the hard drive with a message that reads "memory of the independence day," followed by as many "u" characters as it takes to write over every sector of every physical drive attached to the compromised system.' ChannelNews Asia carries similar information."

Comments

Final code

[Anonymous Coward]

0 0 0 Destruct 0

Re:Final code

[xmundt]

Greetings and Salutations...
          First off, I fear this is a hoax, simply because we are hearing about it BEFOREHAND. One of my favorite comments (said about a recent event where some flake was arrested after some very vocal threats against our President) is "Real assassins don't tell you they are coming to kill you".
          Secondly, if it were me, I would overwrite the hard drive with "DEADBEEF". Not only is it traditional, but, it has a certain charming truth to it that would add amusement.
            regards
            dave mundt

Re:Final code

[Jurily]

First off, I fear this is a hoax, simply because we are hearing about it BEFOREHAND.

Yes, they deciphered exactly when and how it will strike, but can't figure out how to remove it?

Re:Final code

[hh4m]

(Score:0)

Re:Final code

[Critical Facilities]

Yes, they deciphered exactly when and how it will strike, but can't figure out how to remove it?

They have already figured out how to remove it.

Re:Final code

[Joce640k]

They already know how to remove it. Microsoft malware remover says it's been removing MyDoom for many moons. If MyDoom is still rampant it's because the people aren't running Microsoft update and their antivirus has been subverted and also isn't working/updating properly. Don't act surprised, I see a good percentage of machines in exactly this state. Good riddance to such machines, I say. The world needs a wake up call. I know plenty of seemingly intelligent people who say "so what?" when I tell them their machine might be infected. So long as they can still surf for porn and play games they just don't care about viruses. If the MyDoom people have a new exploit lined up then a reformat of all those machines is just a way of removing the competition and getting the machines back to a known state.

Re:Final code

[RockDoctor]

The world needs a yet another wake up call.

There, fixed that for you. From a machine in just that state.

It's a client's computer doing nothing important apart from being my access to the Internet and email, so why should I care if it burns? If it goes down and I lose internet access and email, I just carry on doing my job and send in my reports by fax until the client defrobs their IT policies. I don't see that happening for several more years, if ever.

It'd be much easier to sack the man responsible for getting it virused by installing random programs on it or visiting random websites.

first post..

[stillpixel]

Good day to be a linux/mac user eh? In South Korea the worm eats your data.. doh!

Re:first post..

[Fulcrum of Evil]

since all south korean online banking is done with windows computers, friday will seriously suck.

Re:first post..

[macshit]

since all south korean online banking is done with windows computers, friday will seriously suck.

Hmmm, maybe we've been a bit hasty in judging these bot-writers... anything which provides some incentive for korean websites to change that crap can't be all bad...

Perhaps the dear-leader is just showing a bit of tough love?

Re:first post..

[stuntpope]

And anything that may get the average S. Korean to take computer security seriously and not roll their eyes dismissively when you make secure practice recommendations, is a plus in my book.

Re:first post..

[Hynee]

To parent and grandparent, I think greatgrandparent (#28646407) is making a reverse In Korea only old people use XYZ joke.

Tech topic XYZ comes up, people discuss, then someone says "In Korea only old people use XYZ," a classic troll.

So here at slashdot the most popular XYZ is Linux, so only old people in Korea use Linux according to the troll, and of course all the cool people who count use Windows!

I think I'm reading it right. GGP is baiting someone to say "Oh you're wrong, lots of people in Korea use Linux (or OSX or BSD or whatever)!"

... I might go bait him now.

Re:first post..

[Hynee]

since all south korean online banking is done with windows computers, friday will seriously suck.

Oh no you're wrong, I hear a lot of people in Korea use Linux for everything, and just jump on a Windows box for gaming. A common misconception.

Re:first post..

[maxume]

You are wrong. The GGP (my GGGP) is talking about the ActiveX widget that banks use for encryption in South Korea:

http://blog.mozilla.com/gen/2007/02/27/the-cost-of-monoculture/

Re:first post..

[PMBjornerud]

since all south korean online banking is done with windows computers, friday will seriously suck.

I've been scanning the news for updates on this.

Now it's past 9 PM in Seoul, and I still can't find any news on what actually happened, just a lot of stories like TFA.

Nothing happened?

Re:first post..

[Hynee]

I stand corrected. And holy crap! I guess if old Koreans still prefer to do their banking face-to-face like the west, then it is true that in Korea only old people use Linux.

Re:first post..

[Hynee]

This is a joke-fail by me. See here http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1298207&cid=28647907 and http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1298207&cid=28647945.

Re:first post..

[Camann]

No news is overwritten news.

Re:first post..

[stuntpope]

Right.... because hoping some good will come of a computer intrusion is just like hoping for the deaths of people to make a political point.

Re:first post..

[Idiomatick]

This is one of the main reasons we have viruses.

Re:first post..

[aynoknman]

roll their eyes dismissively

Is rolling eyes dismissively a culturally universal gesture?

Re:first post..

[Runaway1956]

Why do you say "S. Korean"?

It's a world wide problem, from the richest to the poorest nations, from the most technically savvy, to the furthest outback reaches. No matter how "sophisticated" a person is, culturally, or otherwise, they tend to expect a computer to "just work". The same person who installs two deadbolts and two chains on their apartment door, and iron grates on all their windows, never bothers to understand how vulnerable his computer might be.

Re:first post..

[Fulcrum of Evil]

well, S. Korea's independence day is next week, so maybe they're off by a week.

Re:first post..

[david_thornley]

You know, I got killed by a Romanian last month....

Oh, oops, it was a computer intrusion. I opened up a port without confirming that everything inside was properly secured.

Sorry, they're so similar sorts of things, I just got confused.

Re:first post..

[Zancarius]

And anything that may get the average S. Korean to take computer security seriously and not roll their eyes dismissively when you make secure practice recommendations, is a plus in my book.

Hey now, let's be fair here. The South Koreans can't all take a monopoly on ignorant users.

I'm pretty sure the average user in the US is far more ignorant! Hell, at least in S. Korea, you get people rolling their eyes. Over here, you might be lucky if the person in question has a glazed-over look while drooling slightly.

Apple viral marketing campaign

[mokeyboy]

Its all a plot to make people buy Mac

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[evilviper]

Actually, it CLEARLY is a plot. It should be pretty obvious to everyone...

It was designed to attack less important government websites, while keeping collateral damage to a minimum... No attempts on the power grid, FAA, etc., and no private companies affected.

Joe Lieberman went up before a room full of press and cameras and said, (roughly) "If this was someone sending us a message, we got it loud and clear."

Plus, it launched on July 4th, not a particularly significant day for North Koreans... And while anybody could look it up, who here can say they know the dates of big Chinese holidays? Really?

And now, it's doing exactly what good worms NEVER do... Killing their hosts, and themselves, suddenly, flagrantly, and unnecessarily. Exactly what any of us would wish to do with zombie PCs.

So, it seems pretty damn likely it was in fact anti-malicious. Some misguided white-hat who thinks drawing attention and cause a small bit of undeniable pain is the only way to make things get better. Frankly, it sounds like the ideal NSA fund raiser...

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Opportunist]

It sounds more like the destruction of evidence. But then again, why'd I want to do that if I was already identified as the culprit? What could I gain? If anything, I'd want the attack to continue indefinitly, even after I've been wiped out, so to maximize the damage to my enemy even if I should not survive it.

To anyone playing chess: If you can't save your queen, make sure you can trade it for his.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Yvanhoe]

Well I must say that I was waiting for such a virus. I the last years, virus are considered like an invisible nuisance that doesn't eat more than a few CPU cycles and some bandwidth. People forgot about the first virus that routinely erased data. Maybe if this kind of virus make a comeback, we will see more people seriously concerned about IT security.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[EdIII]

Plus, it launched on July 4th, not a particularly significant day for North Koreans... And while anybody could look it up, who here can say they know the dates of big Chinese holidays? Really?

Actually, you're just plain wrong about that. July 4th is a very important day for North Koreans. It is when Americans celebrate their independence, and their capitalist freedoms. The propaganda in North Korea starts from a very young age. July 4th is a bad day for North Koreans and they are taught that THAT day is when their mortal enemy celebrates and plots their demise.

So, North Korea deciding to launch missiles or a cyber-attack on July 4th, is no coincidence. Not by a long shot. It's the exact opposite of what you are thinking. July 4th is the perfectly appropriate day to launch attacks against America.

Keep in mind, the war between the U.S and North Korea never ended. It has been in a cease-fire for over 50 years. They are not over it. Far from it. I would even say they are still obsessed and paranoid about the U.S attacking any minute. There are a lot of mentally unstable and brainwashed people in North Korea. Aside from the special elite families (in glorious Animal Farm tradition), that get to enjoy all the perks of Western culture, the rest of the people, including highly ranked military officers are very misinformed people with a deep suspicion and hatred of the U.S.

I would suggest you read about defectors and refugees from North Korea that actually make it out of the country. When interviewed, these people state beliefs in the most outlandish and bizarre pieces of propaganda. Situations like women absolutely convinced that if they touch dropped pamphlets from the South (through air campaigns to spread information to the people) that their hands will rot off . When asked, if they really felt it was true, they state that they really believed it. That's just one example.

So it's not far fetched at all, that July 4th is a day when North Koreans feel hatred and fear.

And now, it's doing exactly what good worms NEVER do... Killing their hosts, and themselves, suddenly, flagrantly, and unnecessarily. Exactly what any of us would wish to do with zombie PCs.

So, it seems pretty damn likely it was in fact anti-malicious. Some misguided white-hat who thinks drawing attention and cause a small bit of undeniable pain is the only way to make things get better. Frankly, it sounds like the ideal NSA fund raiser...

That's very plausible. Botnets are valuable right now. Destroying this Botnet, is in fact, destroying VALUABLE INVENTORY. For organized cyber criminals, this makes no sense whatsoever to destroy what they worked so hard to obtain, or spent money to purchase.

I admit, it does not sound like what criminals would do at all. All that loss, just to possibly cover their tracks a little?

A "white-hat" trying to make a point though? What better way then to cause a little mischief and then mercifully destroy the tools. Your argument is compelling....

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Bert64]

Or for a blackhat, what better way to divert the blame?
Bots are plentiful, insecure windows boxes are extremely abundant and it will be easy for them to acquire more, they probably haven't even diverted all of their current resources to this attack.
The machines that get wiped will likely just be reinstalled from the recovery cd that came with the machine, thus returning them to the same vulnerable state they were in before - ready to be reowned.

Incidentally, if you've ever looked at a compromised machine, there's typically lots of different pieces of malware on them, most infected boxes tend to be shared between several groups and some end up a battleground between competing groups trying to remove each others' malware.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[michelcolman]

Plus, it launched on July 4th, not a particularly significant day for North Koreans... And while anybody could look it up, who here can say they know the dates of big Chinese holidays? Really?

Well, it's not like there's a big blockbuster Hollywood movie like "Born on the First of October", or a movie called "National Day" with aliens attacking Peking on the first of October, so thay might explain why fewer people know the big Chinese holidays

O, and the North Korean one is the 9th of September, by the way. Finding that out took a similar amount of effort, actually even less because I still had the Wikipedia window open.

If you're still not sure whether or not the North Koreans know about the fourth of July, the fact that they launched seven missiles on precisely that day this year must be a coincidence too? And the fact that they tested a long range missile on that day three years ago? And their nuclear test on U.S. Memorial Day?

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Godwin O'Hitler]

When interviewed, these people state beliefs in the most outlandish and bizarre pieces of propaganda. Situations like women absolutely convinced that if they touch dropped pamphlets from the South (through air campaigns to spread information to the people) that their hands will rot off . When asked, if they really felt it was true, they state that they really believed it.

Then they are incredibly stupid. Kids in the West get brainwashed into believing Santa Claus exists, but how many carry that belief with them into adulthood when no one ever told them the brutal truth about the fat red guy?

(...waits for funny Santa Claus comments ;)

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[EdIII]

Kids in the West get brainwashed into believing Santa Claus exists, but how many carry that belief with them into adulthood when no one ever told them the brutal truth about the fat red guy?

What are you saying? You're not saying... ?

But... but... that CAN'T be true.

You just shut up. I still get my presents each year.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[FTWinston]

There's a pretty significant difference - the adults don't believe it too.

Lets face it, pretty much everyone can be incredibly stupid if the circumstances are right.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Opportunist]

A big, fat guy with a long beard that gives kids presents after they sat on his lap.

Is it me or is something not quite right there?

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[calmofthestorm]

Wouldn't a white hat just destruct the trojan instead of the hard drive?

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[EdIII]

A big, fat guy with a long beard that gives kids presents after they sat on his lap.

Is it me or is something not quite right there?

So know you are saying he lied when he said, "That's just a big lollipop in my pants"?

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[BiggerIsBetter]

It also sounds like a good way to sell large numbers of NAS and backup systems.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[ComaVN]

Over a billion people claim to believe that a 2000 year old cosmic, Jewish zombie, born of a virgin mother; will offer you eternal life if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood and telepathically accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force, present on all humans because a woman who was made from the rib of a man, who was constructed of dust, was convinced by a talking snake, to eat a cursed apple, from a magical tree growing in a mystical garden a little while after the universe was created around 6000 years ago.

You might be right.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[shacky003]

So you didn't get the memo that the North Koreans tested missiles last year also around July 4th, and put out press releases from the national news agency stating that it was on purpose? In your example, being that major United States holidays are fairly well known all over the world, it doesn't hold water. If we used your example, how many U.S. based movies do you think a typical easterner knows, compared to how many movies/rock stars/etc, that you know from their land?

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Opportunist]

The taste should have given it away...

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny only in an ironic way, unfortunately.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[witherstaff]

Don't forget he's the ultimate voyeur, always watching. Especially if you're being naughty.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Antique Geekmeister]

Sounds like Richard Stallman to me. (http://www.straferight.com/photopost/data/500/richard-stallman.jpg)

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[incense]

EdIII wrote:

When interviewed, these people state beliefs in the most outlandish and bizarre pieces of propaganda. Situations like women absolutely convinced that if they touch dropped pamphlets from the South (through air campaigns to spread information to the people) that their hands will rot off . When asked, if they really felt it was true, they state that they really believed it. That's just one example.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but: Trustworthy sources or it didn't happen.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[EdIII]

Escaping North Korea: Secrets of the World's Most Isolated Country by Mike Kim

I have no idea if you would consider this trustworthy or not, but it comes from that book. The author was on the ground and personally helped North Korean citizens through the underground railroad and interviewed quite a few of them.

# Publisher: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, Inc.
# Pub. Date: September 2008
# ISBN-13: 9780742556201

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Zumbs]

If I'm not very much mistaken, resurrection includes healing damage, such as holes through the hands. According to the scriptures of said belief, the Jewish zombie still had the holes.

If you ever watched Return of the Living Dead III, the newly dead even acted human for a few days ...

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[complete loony]

But it's the one job where he doesn't have to see kids all year round. And even on the one night when he has to go around and give them something, they have to be asleep. If you ask me santa can't stand kids.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[sjames]

Unlike government propaganda, Santa is simply meant to be a fun childhood myth. The story simply isn't designed to last into adulthood and never was.

Consider the number of adults who believe they've won millions of dollars which will be theirs as soon as they pay the processing fee. Or the ones who believe the FDA wouldn't have approved drug X unless it was absolutely safe. Or that 'scientists' are evil minions of Satan bent on making your kids go to hell for believing in evolution.

How about the evil satanic rituals happening in the expansive system of tunnels under the daycare center? Apparently, 'authorities' believed that one strongly enough to flatten the building and dig the entire grounds up to a depth of several feet, then go over it with ground penetrating radar. Millions of dollars, several hung juries and several really screwed up lives later, nobody formally renounced the story, they just let it fade away.

For a more recent example, how many believe that the plutonium and WMD were actually found in Iraq or that it all will be any day now? There's a nice political whopper for you!

That poverty in the West is a moral failure on the part of the poor....

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[WuphonsReach]

Bots are plentiful, insecure windows boxes are extremely abundant and it will be easy for them to acquire more, they probably haven't even diverted all of their current resources to this attack.

I would postulate that crackable boxes being plentiful is a side-effect of the relatively benign nature of most infections. Slowing down the box or connection is nothing more then a minor inconvenience to most users. But if you start interfering with the user (rapid pop-up windows, crashes, other problems), they're much more likely to go get the machine fixed or to learn how to secure it. (Akin to being sick enough that you go to the doctor's office rather then just tough it out.)

However, if malware goes back to the days of yore where machines were frequently wiped and data destroyed, then I think users are going to be much more likely to sit up and take notice. A significant portion of users will even start to take preventative (or curative, if already infected) action. If you make it scary enough that the major news outlets carry the story, you might see a marked reduction in the number of crackable boxes. Now instead of just sniffles, you've got a good chance of mortality (loss of all data on the box).

Granted, you're fighting people's inertia to do nothing at all.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[bogjobber]

FYI, they don't believe they're eating his flesh symbolically. They think they are actually eating his body and drinking his blood. Literally. Even though it's just a cracker and some wine.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[m.ducharme]

... if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood ...

Uh, if I remember my Catholic doctrine correctly (and there's a good chance I don't, it's been a long time) the sacrament of Communion isn't a symbolic gesture. The Miracle of Transubstantiation is supposed to turn the bread and wine into real body and blood. Of course I've yet to meet a Catholic, lapsed or otherwise, who really believes that they become cannibals when they take Communion, and I'd bet money that there's some Church doctrinal material that "proves" that even though you really are eating Jesus, you're not doing it in that bad Cannibalistic way (or any other bad way).

All of which merely reaffirms your point that humans will believe anything, if the story is compelling enough.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[drinkypoo]

That's very plausible. Botnets are valuable right now. Destroying this Botnet, is in fact, destroying VALUABLE INVENTORY.

If someone was taking over one of your botnets, you might destroy it to prevent your competitor from taking it over and using it to their advantage, if you had no further use for it (perhaps because you had already built a superior one.) Perhaps your new botnet depends on VT, and if you destroy the OS on people's computers, many will just go buy a newer one, then come plug it back into the same place and use the same passwords you've already sniffed.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[RobertLTux]

as it happens Google (and i would bet whatever iCalendar uses for data) has both a chinese and a korean calender

please note the Chinese/Japanese/Korean trio have sometimes completely different holidays (kind of like the US/Canada/England do)

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[russotto]

Then they are incredibly stupid. Kids in the West get brainwashed into believing Santa Claus exists, but how many carry that belief with them into adulthood when no one ever told them the brutal truth about the fat red guy?

The North Koreans probably all know someone who lost his or her hands after touching a South Korean pamphlet, which reinforces the belief. That the hands were actually lost though the efforts of the North Korean secret police is a minor detail.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[doulos05]

As someone who believe this, please don't confuse Catholics and Protestants. Catholics (a large percentage, but far from all of Christianity) believe in Transubstatiation (The bread and wine become the body of Christ). However, the majority of protestant traditions teach that communion is strictly symbolic. And it's not "Hey, be a cannibal so I can save you!" It's a backreference to (among other things) the first passover meal, in which a lamb was slaughtered and it's blood put on the doorposts of the house to save it's occupants from the angel of death in Egypt. It symbolises that just as the lamb had to die (and be eaten) to save those in the house in Egypt, so Christ had to give his body to save those who would believe in him; and just as the blood of the lamb protected everyone who took refuge in that house in Egypt, so the blood of Christ protects all who take refuge in his sacrifice.

Sorry to cloud the issue with pertinent facts though, carry on.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Work in the phrase "My savior has two daddies" somewhere in there and it'll be absolutely perfect.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Profane MuthaFucka]

That depends actually, because some heretical denominations like Methodists and Baptists do believe it's symbolic. OF COURSE that is ridiculous, and all these Pope haters are going to hell anyway.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Tolkien]

Aw, such a perfect opportunity to weave in the FSM and Church of Scientology wasted. :(

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Artifakt]

Fail. See, the only way to talk about Christians on Slashdot is to oversimplify and parody their beliefs until you are describing what almost nobody actually believes, and then claim you have more authority to decide who is actually a Christian than they themselves do.
      It's like you claim Capitalists worship a Giant Invisible Hand and make human sacrifices to it. When somebody starts posting something reasonable about supply vs demand driven economic cycles of commodity items, you then denounce them as not a "real" Capitalist. Wash, rinse, repeat.
      (And to anybody who is a Marxist. Libertarian, Anarchosyndicalist, Anarchocapitalist, Randroid, Goldwaterist, Left-Center-Syncretist Labor Party, Technophile, Technophobe, Techno-is-my-bitch, Viist, Emacsist, FIAWOList, FIJAGDHist, or whatever, don't think there is no way to translate your beliefs into a straw man and then attack them.)
      So far, none of this particular Christian bash has been really vicious, and some of it has actually been funny. For the rest, He says He forgives you.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Jbcarpen]

Not if he's trying to give the user a kick in the pants to wake them up. Remember, most humans aren't people, they're sheeple.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[ubermiester]

can you spell "allegory"? try it with me now: a-l-l-e-g-o-r-y. that wasn't so hard, right? now try "condescending prick"...

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Erikderzweite]

>Plus, it launched on July 4th, not a particularly significant day for North Koreans...

What could North Korea possibly have to do with any of this? They don't have Internet access save for Party elite, how could they raise computer security specialists skilled enough to make a successful botnet? They also have no money to acquire specialists which are needed for the attack. I don't think that North Korea is interested in such attacks at all (even those few among them who know what Internet is).

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[theskipper]

What a coincidence, you were thinking of Uncle Ralph too?

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Artifakt]

When you eat anything nutritious, it gets turned into body and blood - yours. That's not mysticism, it's science. The bread and wine used at communion is definitely getting turned into somebody's body and blood (within a few days at most and at a certain level of efficiency) so now we're really just debating whose body it becomes, yours or some kind of Holy Spirit which is embodied inside of you (and if you believe the Bible, other people, so don't go thinking you're special).
      I mostly practice as an Episcopalian. Doctrine there is, you attend church, and hear several short lessons read from the bible (usually one from the Old Testament, one from the New, and one specifically from the four Gospels.). Then there's a sermon from the priest, which is based around one or more of those three lessons. At communion, it's specifically said that God has given us spiritual food already (presumably those lessons, and hopefully, the priest's opinions on them as well) and is giving us bread and wine as a symbol of the spiritual instruction, and a reminder to absorb those lessons and make them part of us, and put them to use in the world, just as we absorb the physical food and presumably put it to good use. There's also a statement that Jesus had the same supper with his desciples and ordered them to use the bread and wine as a symbol (presumably that explains why the communion isn't cheese and beer or a nice salad and chocolate milk or something else instead, is that there's a claim that historically, it was bread and wine).
      The Roman Catholic doctrine seems to be it isn't just a symbolic gesture, which is different from claiming there's no symbolism. Beyond that, I'm not going to try to explain why they think it's an important distinction, but personally, I don't see their reasoning as a big deal one way or the other. If God doesn't do anything supernatural or miraculous there, but acts by natural processes, I don't see that as harming the rest of the faith, just like I don't think you can shoot down the claim from the parable of the good Samaritan that any person who would stop and help you is your brother, regardless of race, by proving that the story of Jonah and the whale didn't happen.

       

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Opportunist]

And he knows when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake, and he comes down the chimney 'cause he knows usually people forget to secure that.

That old geezer scares me.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Will.Woodhull]

I, for one, have looked through your post and don't see any of the "pertinent facts" you claim to present to us.

Quite frankly, I don't care about the details of how any particular group of Christians pretends to do their cannibalistic feasting. Celebrating the torture and murder of a God or a human as a means to attain a state of ecstatic grace that surpasses all understanding is an absurd thing to devote one's life to, and the practice has inflicted much pain and suffering on the world. Euphemisms about the "Lamb of God" and so forth are self-serving attempts to keep from seeing the horror of what Jesus started in that upper story room. He definitely wanted to shock his apostles with that horror, so why do the christian churches try so very hard to whitewash it?

The only good Christian is a post-christian. Then, and only then, can the Goddess-given human capability of Reason work with the Goddess-given human capability of Perceiving Beauty to craft this world toward the more excellent place it can become. Not some other World. Not some AfterLife. This world. Listen to the wombat. He speaks a high truth.

If there is a God worthy of worship Out There, He or She will understand that "One world at a time" is a reasonable human goal for making things better.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[plague3106]

Ya, well they are also raised to believe an invisible man in the sky sent a son who died and came back from the dead... and many hold to that belief well into adulthood, never abandoning it.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[plague3106]

Ha. No kidding. Its not even wine, its grape juice.

Nothing like seeing the blood of christ being poured out of a juicy juicy bottle in the rectory, and seeing his body in tiny wafer form filling plastic bags tied up with wire ties, sitting on the floor.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[plague3106]

Um, ya, like that one difference makes up for the fact that the rest of your beliefs are based on nothing more than fairy tails. But please, don't let me stop you from bashing the fairy tails of Catholics.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[ShakaUVM]

Plus, it launched on July 4th, not a particularly significant day for North Koreans... And while anybody could look it up, who here can say they know the dates of big Chinese holidays? Really?

Anyone could also look up that big Chinese holidays don't have "dates".

They're tied to the lunar calendar, so it's kinda like asking "What is the date of Easter each year?"

Since your statement is about the ignorance of people in Korea, it's doubly ironic.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[plague3106]

He doesn't even exist to be able to forgive me. At least all those other belief systems are based around actual things that exist (people, technology, etc). There's no proof at all that a god exists; there's even less proof that he cares at all about anyone if he does.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[m.ducharme]

When you eat anything nutritious, it gets turned into body and blood - yours.

This isn't what Catholics (and I was one, remember) believe happens. The Priest takes the wine and bread, prays over it, and performs the Miracle of Transubstantiation. This is supposed to turn the wine and bread into the body and blood of Jesus. Not metaphorically, literally. The fact that they still look and taste like wine and bread is irrelevant. No shit, this is what the doctrine states, and if you're a Catholic and you don't really believe this, you're going to Hell.

That's not mysticism, it's science. The bread and wine used at communion is definitely getting turned into somebody's body and blood (within a few days at most and at a certain level of efficiency) so now we're really just debating whose body it becomes, yours or some kind of Holy Spirit which is embodied inside of you (and if you believe the Bible, other people, so don't go thinking you're special).

No, you've raised a red herring. No Catholic would question that the bread and wine is turned by metabolic processes into parts of their own body. Catholics don't believe in Creationism, either. But every good Catholic is supposed to believe that by eating that blessed bread and wine, they're tucking into the body and blood of their Saviour (whether they really do believe this is an open question, of course).

At communion, it's specifically said that God has given us spiritual food already (presumably those lessons, and hopefully, the priest's opinions on them as well) and is giving us bread and wine as a symbol of the spiritual instruction, and a reminder to absorb those lessons and make them part of us, and put them to use in the world, just as we absorb the physical food and presumably put it to good use.

As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, this is Heresy. You eat the bread and wine, you get saved, regardless of how well you absorb the lessons of the homily and sermon. It's a little more complicated than that, but not much. Understanding is not required for salvation.

The Roman Catholic doctrine seems to be it isn't just a symbolic gesture, which is different from claiming there's no symbolism.

I never intended to claim that there was no symbolism in the act, but to show that the act itself has at its core a non-symbolic, mystical event. The symbolism is secondary (and much symbolism -- specifically the symbolism of ritual cannibalism -- is pointedly ignored by the Church and the Laity both).

Beyond that, I'm not going to try to explain why they think it's an important distinction, but personally, I don't see their reasoning as a big deal one way or the other.

But Catholics do see it as a big deal, the whole ritual of the Mass is centred around the performance of this Miracle and attendant ritual cannibalism.

If God doesn't do anything supernatural or miraculous there, but acts by natural processes, I don't see that as harming the rest of the faith,

The whole point is that God is supposedly doing something Miraculous, it's one of the things the Church points to to bolster the faith of the Laity. If nothing miraculous is happening, what's the point?

just like I don't think you can shoot down the claim from the parable of the good Samaritan that any person who would stop and help you is your brother, regardless of race, by proving that the story of Jonah and the whale didn't happen.

What does the parable of the good Samaritan have to do with faith? It's an interesting moral instruction, and you can test the benefits of it in your own life, and decide on its appropriateness from there. Faith has nothing to do with it.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Calithulu]

I think most people realize that it is entirely symbolic. Some people just can't help but make fun of others by recasting their traditions on the worst possible light.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[doulos05]

Well, at least we agree on one thing. We should all be striving to make this world a better place. The major difference is how we approach it. See, I recognize a pattern in all the YRO articles posted here. I see the commonality between Korea's botnet destroying people's computers and Lancaster's mayor exuberance over their new spy plane. And I approach any and every plan and idea to make this world a better place with the realization that people are evil. They don't make mistakes, they don't unintentionally screw things up. Rather, they have to try to not be evil. So maybe if we work together, your reason and my pessimistic opinion of human nature can make some changes for the better?

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[someone1234]

The HD is not destroyed, only its content :)

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[ConceptJunkie]

Fairies have wings, not tails.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[WuphonsReach]

Catholics might believe that, but protestants(?) go the "symbolic" route.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Degro]

Because what they believe is fucking STUPID.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[TheRaven64]

According to the scriptures of said belief, the Jewish zombie still had the holes.

Not sure which translation of the bible you've read, but in the version I recall, after the resurrection Thomas said he would only believe if he could put his fingers into the holes where the nails went in. Jesus then showed that the wounds had healed completely.

I am not a Christian, but I have read the bible (and a translation of the Qur'an and a number of other religious texts).

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[PinkyGigglebrain]

it was a "Serpent" not a snake.

The fruit of the Tree of Knowledge was not cursed, just forbidden and it is was not identified as an apple, could just as likely been a pomegranate or an orange.

Other than that your spot on in your summary.

Apologies for adding this clarification but I have strong issues with the ongoing, unjust, persecution of snakes and apples by the followers of the aforementioned Jewish zombie.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[IonOtter]

I'd hardly call 50,000 dead machines "destruction of evidence". If I were a data recovery specialist, I'd call it manna from heaven. If I were a forensic analyst, I'd call it a treasure trove of easily identified corpses.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[clevergeek]

I would suggest you read about defectors and refugees from North Korea that actually make it out of the country. When interviewed, these people state beliefs in the most outlandish and bizarre pieces of propaganda. Situations like women absolutely convinced that if they touch dropped pamphlets from the South (through air campaigns to spread information to the people) that their hands will rot off . When asked, if they really felt it was true, they state that they really believed it. That's just one example.

Why should I take the time to read it when you just watched it on the Daily Show?

Linky

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[ubermiester]

I understand that your original point was that some people will believe anything they are told, but I think your critic should be aimed at a less complex source of incredulity.

While it may be true that people tend to act like "sheep" in uncritically accepting interpretations of ancient texts, that's the whole point of using allegory in the first place. Most people are simply looking for a digestible worldview that enriches their lives - i.e., "Do these things and you will reap great reward regardless of whether you understand what you are doing or not" and cannot process the surprisingly sophisticated theological and philosophical ideas that underpin the Judeo-Christian-Muslim belief system. It is simply too dense for the average person to grasp by use of reason, so simple metaphors are used instead.

Consider that the billiard ball model of atomic interaction is still used to teach high school students because they have no a priori understanding of "electron clouds" or a quantum of energy, whereas they do understand things bumping into one another. Would you call them sheep? Would you call their teachers purveyors of superstition? The students with just enough interest to digest these basic concepts understand at least as much as 19th century professional scientists (about atoms), while those with more interest and capacity go on to examine things in more detail, and presumably gain a more sophisticated and far more powerful understanding of the world.

Which raises the real problem for modern Christianity (or any other surviving ancient religion): the book has already gone to press and no one presumes to write a sequel. As a result, it's allegories are increasingly misunderstood and misused, and the further away we get from a text's context of authorship, the more difficult it is for us to see them the way the author and original reader saw them. The key is to realize that this in no way diminishes the value of the lessons on which they are based. If you consider this heresy, remember that some of the most respected scientists in history were devoutly religious - Newton, Aristotle, Einstein, Bacon, Jung, etc. Perhaps they saw past the allegorical "jewish zombies" and "magical trees" to the deeper meaning beneath. --------- And by the way, sometimes when we look at the knowledge for which an allegory is constructed as a tool of understanding, we can see how important our intuition is in deciding how we see the world:

Ancient Bible : Ever-present cosmic creator snaps fingers and the universe suddenly exists.
Modern Science: Ever-present cosmic "membranes" collide and the universe suddenly exists.

Ancient Bible : Man emerges from a "garden of plenty" where he has no concept of right and wrong
Modern Science: Man emerges from "lower" forms of life that have no concept of right and wrong.

Ancient Bible : Man struggles to understand his world and is aided by a series of revelations.
Modern Science: Man struggles to understand his world and is aided by a series of discoveries.

Ancient Bible : Man is beset by fear and anxiety because he does not put his faith in god.
Modern Science: Man is beset by fear and anxiety because he put his faith in god.

Ancient Bible : Jesus tells people that "heaven" is available to everyone.
Modern Science: Freud tells people that "sanity" is available to everyone.

Ancient Bible : Jesus teaches that a person can be healed by having faith.
Modern Science: Placebos teach us that a person can be healed by having faith.

Ancient Bible : Jesus claims there is an unseen world behind the world we live in.
Modern Science: Physicists claim there is an unseen world behind the world we live in.

Ancient Bible : The heavens and the earth will pass away.
Modern Science: The heavens and the earth will pass away.

Ancient Bib

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[aaaantoine]

He doesn't even exist to be able to forgive me.

How do you know? Do you have proof?

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[EdIII]

I didn't know he was on the Daily Show. I don't have tv, and I would not use Hulu. Some of us might have just actually read the book you know. Some us might actually go into a Barnes and Nobles once in awhile and pick up that ancient non-electrified form of communication.

What does that have to with it anyways? Are you saying that my point is completely invalid because the author did an interview on TV? That interview removes all credibility he might have had? That referencing anything that also happened to be on TV means you can completely ignore it, not read it, and then arrogantly claim it's irrelevance to the argument?

What is your point again?

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[analyticaldude]

Not funny. Ignorant, perhaps. Or, poor use of sarcasm. Definitely NOT funny.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[analyticaldude]

Ive seen no concrete evidence or proof that YOU exist. However I am fairly certain you do, in fact, exist. God isn't about evidence. You might want to do a search for the words faith and faithful in the Bible. It's not about science. It's about faith. A relationship with God has nothing to do with science, evidence, and proof. If you really, honestly, sincerely want to know if the God of the Bible exists, you will find the truth. Then, you may choose to accept the truth or reject it. Gotta love freewill.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Hucko]

Australia on the other hand just celebrates them all.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Zumbs]

Its some 10 years since I read that passage. I just reread it, and as you said, the myth goes that Thomas wanted to put his fingers into the holes and that Jesus invited him to. However, in my (online) translation it does not say if the wounds were healed, nor if Thomas actually tried to put his finger into them.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Anonymous Coward]

okay so you believe: that a 2000 year old cosmic, Jewish zombie, born of a virgin mother; will offer you eternal life if you HAVE DINNER WITH HIM and telepathically accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force, present on all humans because a woman who was made from the rib of a man, who was constructed of dust, was convinced by a talking snake, to eat a cursed apple, from a magical tree growing in a mystical garden a little while after the universe was created around 6000 years ago.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Tacvek]

Only some Protestant denominations use grape juice. Others use wine, as does the Catholic Church.
Also when it is back in the rectory, it still just food/drink. At that point it has still not been transformed (literally, symbolically, or whatever) into the Body and Blood.

Not that it really matters, being all a manifestation of defects in the Human thought process.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[marcello_dl]

Look, the brave guy sneering at a misrepresentation of a religious movement!

Shall we demonstrate instead that gcc is smarter than the average atheist?

everything.c:

#include <stdio.h>

void main()
{
  // possibly some stuff....
   void ouruniverse() {
    // other stuff...
    char * rule = "A XOR !A is always true";
  }

  printf(rule); // FAIL!

}

gcc everything.c
everything.c: In function 'main':
everything.c:11: error: 'rule' undeclared (first use in this function)

As gcc points out we can't safely apply our logic outside our reality, making 99% of arguments by atheists priests and philosophers flawed, 100% of fundamentalists' actions wrong.

And you worry about whether snakes can talk.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[cbiltcliffe]

He had scars, not holes. That sounds like healing damage to me.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[blackraven14250]

"Brainwashed" kid != brainwashed nation

When you have a brainwashed kid in a free nation, they can think for themselves. When you have a nation telling you touching the pamphlets means hand will rot off, they'll have pictures of people that it's happened to. They'll have a woman with no hands (paid, of course) tell the rest how she lost them. Constant reinforcement via any and every channel is a much different situation than the "brainwashing" we're familiar with.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[blackraven14250]

Prove any of that. Now prove that you hand won't fall off after touching one of the pamphlets. See the difference?

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[Kent Recal]

Sorry to cloud the issue with pertinent facts though, carry on.

Talking about "facts" in the context of jewish zombies, born of virgin mothers, is a bit laughable.

Especially when all you have to back it up is a lamb that was slaughtered and had it's blood put on the doorposts of a house to save it's occupants from the angel of death in Egypt. Yeah, right.

And now excuse me while I go slaughter a lamb. These goddamn death angels are all over the place here on Saturdays, time to take action.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[incense]

Escaping North Korea: Secrets of the World's Most Isolated Country by Mike Kim

I have no idea if you would consider this trustworthy or not, but it comes from that book.

Interesting, thanks. I'll read the book.

Two, preferably three, independent sources would be the minimum requirement of thrustworthyness. Especially when the intel is from a closed country that has a reputation that makes it trivially easy to make things up and have people believe in it.

Note that I think Kim's goals are very worthy; he's holding speeches etc. raising money to finance helping North Koreans escape.

Re:Apple viral marketing campaign

[plague3106]

Do you have proof that he does? I find it far more useful to believe in things that exhibit that they exist, than to believe in things that HAVEN'T exhibited that they exist. I mean, I don't have proof that the FSM doesn't exist either... shall I (or you?) believe in that too?

U ?

[clang_jangle]

Trojan horse program that overwrites the data on the hard drive with a message that reads "memory of the independence day," followed by as many "u" characters as it takes to write over every sector of every physical drive attached to the compromised system

Wow, and I thought only 0 and 1 could actually be written to the hard drive.

Re:U ?

[JorDan Clock]

That's why this is newsworthy.

Re:U ?

[Anonymous Coward]

u in binary (yeah, I know what you meant):
1010 0101

I would have expected
0101 0101
which is "U"
(or 1010 1010, but that doesn't seem to be a nice ASCII character I can type)
Hmm, maybe it is a capitalization error on someones part, or maybe they just like the palindromic nature of 1010 0101?

Re:U ?

[broken_chaos]

I wouldn't expect either of the linked articles to know binary. It probably is "U", meaning just a repeating 010101010101010101........ Makes the most sense given the structure of hard drives and the fact that a repeated sequence of "u" after "memory of the independence day" (assuming that comma is also not part of it) makes no sense from any point of view.

Re:U ?

[Anonymous Coward]

.... "u" in ASCII, represented in binary is 0111 0101, not 1010 0101. "U" is 0101 0101, as you said though.

Re:U ?

[RealGrouchy]

No, I think it's a ternary system, using the digits 1, 0, and U. Also known as "L33T debtor code" ;-)

- RG>

Re:U ?

[noundi]

I would have expected
0101 0101
which is "U"

But... why? It's not like U nor u makes sense. Seems pretty random to me.

Re:U ?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't expect either of the linked articles to know binary. It probably is "U", meaning just a repeating 010101010101010101........ Makes the most sense given the structure of hard drives and the fact that a repeated sequence of "u" after "memory of the independence day" (assuming that comma is also not part of it) makes no sense from any point of view.

Poppycock. Of course it makes sense. They're trying to use up all the 'U's on the internet!

Re:U ?

[Korin43]

It's a sequence of 01 repeating. The fact that it comes out as "U" is probably coincidence.

Re:U ?

[zeromorph]

Wau Holland once said – long ago – that he liked binary technology because there's only high, low, and broken.

Re:U ?

[noundi]

Obviously, sorry I don't know how I didn't see that.

Re:U ?

[lxs]

Which is why we need to write a counter virus that writes NO U!!!!!! on Korean drives.

Re:U ?

[jim_v2000]

In South Korea, virus writes U!

Re:U ?

[SeaFox]

In Soviet Trojan, hard drive is overwritten by "U"!

Re:U ?

[howlingmadhowie]

small correction
U=0101 0101
u=0111 0101

it quite obviously cannot be a number larger than 128 in decimal :)

Re:U ?

[jridley]

That's funny, I thought only magnetic patterns could be written to the hard drive. When read back and decoded, they're interpreted as 0s and 1s. When those are interpreted, they might look like a u. How low do you want to go with pedanticism?

Re:U ?

[6Yankee]

They aren't Us, they're actually zeros with the tops lopped off.

Re:U ?

[selven]

It's a coincidence in the same way that it's a coincidence that the temperature where I am right now is exactly 23.57102'C. It has to be some number (or ASCII character) and U isn't really any more special than any of the other ones.

Re:U ?

[Rockoon]

Time to school the Coward in the ways of Nerd.

To convert from an upper case letter to a lower case letter in ascii, you simply add 32 decimal (0x20 in C-hex-speak, 20h in ASM-hex-speak, or 0010 0000 in binary.)

Since this is a power-of-two, it becomes painfully obvious that "0101 0101" and "1010 0101" are not the upper and lower cases of the same letter, and further..

... "1010 0101" has its high bit set, so it cannot be any alpha-numeric character at all, which is also painfully obvious to any nerd.

..and finally... all nerds worldwide have an ascii chart, complete with hex and binary representation, taped up behind their monitor on their parents basement wall.

Re:U ?

[CaptainJeff]

u in binary (yeah, I know what you meant): 1010 0101

Incorrect.
u's ASCII encoding in binary -> 1010 0101

Alot of modern systems use Unicode for text processing too, so you may instead see 0000 0000 1010 0101 being written. Or 1010 0101 0000 0000, depending on byte ordering.

(yeah, I know what you meant)

Re:U ?

[sydb]

It's a sequence of 01 repeating. The fact that it comes out as "U" is probably irrelevant.

There, fixed that for you.

Re:U ?

[Translation Error]

Poppycock. Of course it makes sense. They're trying to use up all the 'U's on the internet!

Damn! Now how am I going to use all my Qs?!

Re:U ?

[Critical Facilities]

I still blame the guys in Clutch.

Re:U ?

[drinkypoo]

Poppycock. Of course it makes sense. They're trying to use up all the 'U's on the internet!

Damn! Now how am I going to use all my Qs?!

Take up Welsh... or Klingon

Re:U ?

[QuantumRiff]

Wouldn't the south Korean computers be using Unicode though and not ascii?

Re:U ?

[Eric52902]

You know times are bad when hackers can't even afford all the zeros they need and need to buy defective ones...

Re:U ?

[JJ Zabkar]

Agreed. The default setting should be Unicode. Is there any significance to a Korean character represented by 01 repeating?

Re:U ?

[TheRaven64]

Nah, real nerds have memorised the relevant parts of ASCII and know how to type 'man ascii' into their terminals if they need to check any more.

Re:U ?

[ais523]

Assuming ASCII, 'u' is actually 0111 0101; not even palindromic. I agree, 'U' seems more likely.

Re:U ?

[cbiltcliffe]

all nerds worldwide have an ascii chart, complete with hex and binary representation, taped up behind their monitor on their parents basement wall.

n00b.

Real nerds have no need for that chart, as they've got all those codes memorized.

Really that bad of a thing?

[Immostlyharmless]

You have to imagine if these computers are all infected with this one trojan, they are probably infected with god only knows how much other spyware, malware, backdoors, and spambots. This might just be a GOOD thing; when these compromised twits wake up to a completely wiped drive, it might be the thing that drives them to read up on computer security a little bit, perhaps switch to a more secure browser, buy a router with a hardware firewall, etc. Not to mention, it will also wipe out all the aforementioned crapware.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[tsa]

Forget it. They will just buy a new computer because their old one is 'broken.'

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Patrik_AKA_RedX]

More likly they'll complain their kid's game broke their computer, buy a new one and continue punching the monkey.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[HockeyPuck]

You have to imagine if these computers are all infected with this one trojan, they are probably infected with god only knows how much other spyware, malware, backdoors, and spambots. This might just be a GOOD thing; when my friends and family wake up to a completely wiped drive, it might be the thing that drives my 89yr old grandmother to read up on computer security a little bit, perhaps switch to a more secure browser, buy a router with a hardware firewall, etc. Not to mention, it will also wipe out all of their pictures, tax returns, email and other important documents.

There fixed that for you.

Why don't you just wish them to total their car so that they can be forced to buy a newer, more fuel efficient car.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

More likly they'll complain their kid's game broke their computer, buy a new one and continue spanking the monkey.

There, fixed that for you.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[rodgster]

hhhmmm

I wonder if the backbone network admins are going to block access to that "set of web servers" or just let nature take it course.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, fuck you and your grandma. My grandma runs Linux, and so could yours, but nooooo, she decided to learn it the hard way.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[clarkkent09]

This seems to be a popular view here on slashdot but it ignores the fact that 90% of the computer users neither understand nor should have to understand a single bit of what the hell you are talking about. It should be considered a failure of the part of the computer industry to be making products that are incapable of being used for storing important data without expert level knowledge on how to secure it. We in that industry should start admitting that the issue is our fault instead of calling people twits for not knowing what a "router with a hardware firewall" is. Oh, and you can blame MS all you want but the truth is that Linux, if as widely adopted and used by ordinary computer illiterate users, and as targeted by the malware writers as Windows is, wouldn't be a whole lot batter.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Volante3192]

Why don't you just wish them to total their car so that they can be forced to buy a newer, more fuel efficient car.

It's more like watching them make the engine explode in flames because they never changed the oil in 80,000 miles.

There's unavoidable mechanical failure and then there's not keeping up on maintenance. The former is forgivable, despite being annoying. The latter drives me to wreak havoc on my liver.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[rastilin]

This sounds like an excellent opportunity four a counter-hack. If you follow the chain of computers back to the source, won't it end up in the opponent's critical systems? By placing a backdoor in the target, we would be able to study their technique and objectives.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[rtfa-troll]

of their pictures, tax returns, email and other important documents.

If they have proper backups they will only have a small amount wiped out. If they don't have proper backups then there is only one way to learn to do proper backups. That's to have everything wiped. Right now we are beginning to build seriously important stuff on quicksand. There will be more of this and if it's as small as it sounds (a few 10s of Ks of computers is nothing) then we should be happy.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[rtfa-troll]

This sounds like an excellent opportunity four a counter-hack.

no

If you follow the chain of computers back to the source, won't it end up in the opponent's critical systems?

likely not.

The people behind this are probably reasonably good at what they are doing. Most likely it will at best lead to a compromised host which is being controlled remotely. Very likely the loss of the actual original control system where the bot herder is sitting would not be a big deal. Probably there will be one or more levels where you will go through a P2P network which doesn't make it clear at all where the commands are coming from. The only way to be absolutely sure is to actually raid the physical location where the bot control is coming from and catch the guy at his keyboard.

Having said that, counter-hacking might be a useful investigative technique. If it was legal.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Lennie]

It should be considered a failure of the part of the computer industry I'm sorry, but no1 wants to take that responsability, not even Microsoft unfortunately.

And on the Linux-situation, if Linux is better, it might have been able to prevent anything else but the user home-directory being destroyed.

Also I've not seen any unpatched Linux desktops (not including the stupid distributions which were on the first Netbooks).

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[mwvdlee]

Here's to hoping your and our anti-virus software was good enough to block this one.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[mlts]

This reminds me of the '90s and MS-DOS viruses. At first, people didn't care because stuff like Brain, et al. were annoying but not malicious. Then came more and more destructive variants. Once BIOSes started getting zapped, people started making sure that they downloaded from a clean source and used AV protection.

Times are similar now. Malware used to be annoying because it was fairly crappy code that bogged down a machine. These days, because malware has matured to the point where a user doesn't even know it is present on a system, they tend not to care. Such as the attitude of "I'll do what I want on my computer, if I get my machine slowed down, Geek Squad will fix it for me". If something malicious software bit them, wiping everything on a widespread basis, it might spur Joe Sixpack into not using IE with all settings set to "Low" because the pr0n sites don't complain that way.

However, having a lot of clueless users get their data zapped this isn't a good thing overall. A lot of them will not do a thing for their own security. Instead, they will beg the lawmakers to do something, and feel good (or more aptly, feel "secure") legislative solutions rarely address international problems. Lots of bad things can happen down this path, from mandated "security" software to be on machines, to efforts to make PCs closed appliances like video game consoles.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

You, Sir, have said something far too sensible for the Windows hating command-line lovers here to appreciate. They will no doubt vote you off their island of Windows mockery.

I agree with the parent about the blame game - and I can't see that having thousands of important computer systems blown away in an instant is in any way a good thing, no matter what operating system they're using. Love or hate any vendor or software development methodology as much as you like, but it's the complete ASSHOLES that make this security compromising shit we have to deal with that should be the targets of your mockey.

Unless you're chicken.

Which you probably are.

Else you'd run said insecure operating system just to live dangerously.

Ahhhh! Seriously, this argument about MS vs Linux vs whatever is getting more lame by each post in each story. It's about as lame as the Flash vs blah blah blah it's SOOO BORING I can't even write about it any more debates. There are different operating systems currently available that are guided by different principles and philosophies. Choose one (or more). Use it (or them). Then get over yourselves when the one(s) you use don't have the same market share as another one, or whatever the pissing contest de jour is.

And, if you think that a bunch of very smart people in Redmond aren't concerned with security then you're just extremely blinded and foolish. News flash, homeslice, Debian Woody users aren't the only ones in the world that care about keeping their systems secure.

post anonymously: check
upgrade antivirus that I don't run anyway: check
(because it makes everything run real slow: cheeeck)
offer erect single finger to virus-writers everywhere: check
offer the same to endless whinging about Microsoft: CHECK
wish for Amiga to triumphantly return: check (just for kicks to see if anyone's still reading)

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[G33kGuy]

It's more like watching them make the engine explode in flames because they never changed the oil in 80,000 miles.

Its more likely that the engine would just seize and stop.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[rastilin]

Having said that, counter-hacking might be a useful investigative technique. If it was legal.

Since the pundits are saying that it could be a foreign government, and that the attackers struck at military targets; legality is less applicable that it would normally be.

Or to put it another way. If you were assaulted in the street by someone, the police would deal with it. If the Argentinian government sent a spy to assault you in the street. It's no longer a police matter.

Most likely it will at best lead to a compromised host which is being controlled remotely. Very likely the loss of the actual original control system where the bot herder is sitting would not be a big deal.

Even failure will reveal useful information about the opponent's capabilities. Before it was just posturing but if it is the NKs then this is the first time that they have hindered a foreign government. Information about them would be really useful about now.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[noundi]

My grandma isn't bionic yet, but we're working on it.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Opportunist]

And that's good for our struggling economy, while you might get a perfectly good PC cheaply from the used PC market. Why are you complaining?

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[elvum]

So this is an economic stimulus plan?

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[EdIII]

How on Earth is the above comment flamebait? In any way, shape, or form?

This poster is absolutely RIGHT .

Car analogies are popular here on Slashdot (I don't know what that is about), so how about this one. Why is that cars can only be properly and safely operated by mechanics, engineers, and aficionados?
Obviously, that is not true. Cars are designed to be relatively simple to operate, yet can be highly reliable, safe, and low maintenance. At least for the majority of their lifetime, for the average person.

It's easy to look down and speak badly about the large amount of computer users that have barely a fraction of the skills of the average Slashdotter. However, the poster brings up something rather interesting. Why is it that the various industries responsible for creating these computer systems don't take more responsibility for making it secure?

It's not impossible. Unfortunately, it would probably require a heck of lot more work and cooperation between people and corporations that have no interest or advantage in cooperating.

This goes far beyond just the Evil Microsoft vs. Linux Rulez "debate". The poster is asking why there seems to be a fundamental attitude in the industry to shift blame and responsibility. It's a valid question, that is neither trolling or flaming anyone's point of view.

Is it that unreasonable to wish that computer systems get designed around unsophisticated users skill sets with an emphasis on security? Designing systems that make it difficult to participate in Botnets and other activities that cause considerable financial damage?

I don't think so. There really is a problem that needs to be addressed, and this poster brings up a valid point to discuss.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[vagabond_gr]

Not to mention, it will also wipe out all the aforementioned crapware.

It will be quite fun if a bot-wars started, where the rest of the bots try to kill Mydoom before it kills their hosts.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[SilentMobius]

No, the GP isn't right.

A computer is a multi-function device its strength is that it can attempt most task. A car is a mono-function device. If you want people to have safe malware-free devices you need to convince them to buy an Email appliance, Web browsing appliance, Movie-playing appliance, Desktop-publishing appliance, etc etc. Then there is a possibility (after the market matures) that these can be secure by-design. But people don't want that, they want a machine that is cheap and does everything, except the things that they don't want it to do, and they want the machine to know the difference even if they don't.

And that? that will never happen IMHO.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[tsa]

Show me where I am complaining.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[geekboy642]

My car leaks enough oil that going 80,000 without a "change" isn't necessarily a problem. Then again, I'm also in a sort of contest with myself to see how long I can ignore the check engine light. 13,283 miles so far, I believe that means I'm winning!

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[EdIII]

I agree with you about the multi-function aspect of the device. However, I don't agree that is what people "want". It has been what is marketed to them. That does not imply, that it was the wishes of the users in the first place.

What people want is often marketed to them. In fact, that is the ENTIRE point of marketing in general. To get people to want what you are selling.

Creating sandboxed devices that can switch to performing various tasks that are secure and separate from each other task is not impossible. It just needs to be created and marketed properly.

We essentially do the same thing now in data centers. I have servers that are running 8-10 virtual machines on them that are really just appliances handling a specific type of task. Email, DNS, Webhosting, PBX, etc.

It could happen for regular users too. There just needs to be a marketing campaign to convince them that it benefits them, is easy, and keeps them secure.

Will it happen? Probably not. That I do agree on. The GP still has a point. At the very least, if you disagree with his point, it's not flamebait right?

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[EdIII]

Hey... I never said car analogies on Slashdot were perfect! :)

Obviously, this analogy is not 1:1. We agree on that.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Gordonjcp]

Then again, I'm also in a sort of contest with myself to see how long I can ignore the check engine light.

[CHECK ENGINE]

(opens bonnet)

"Yup, it's still in there..."

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[TheP4st]

Car analogies are popular here on Slashdot (I don't know what that is about), so how about this one. Why is that cars can only be properly and safely operated by mechanics, engineers, and aficionados? Obviously, that is not true. Cars are designed to be relatively simple to operate, yet can be highly reliable, safe, and low maintenance..

Exactly the reason why car anologies are popular here. My 67 years old mother is fully capable of changing oil, checking tyre pressure as well as determine when they need to be replaced. I even remember her changing them when I was a kid and she had a flat in the middle of nowhere, granted there were quite some muted cursing involved but nonetheless she did!

Not running as admin excpet when really needed,using a updated AV and Firewall is pretty much the computer equivalent to that, yet only a tiny minority of Windows users do those three things. Seriously, I have long since lost count of the times I have read Windows users proudly proclaim in forums "I have not used a AV or firewall in years and I have never had a virus" and I've met them in meatspace too. The only difference is that with these ones it have only taken me moments in front of their machine to prove how utterly wrong they are.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[ComaVN]

Your ideas intrigue me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Aristophrenia]

Pretending that your car is a Slackware computer?

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Opportunist]

Actually, it's one of the few that pointed out what the problem is: People don't care about whether their computer is safe. They wouldn't either whether their car is safe if they weren't forced to have it checked from time to time. Do you think you'd find a fair lot of people who don't give a fuck whether their breaks allow them to stop within a mile or less? Hey, I know that my breaks take some time to stop my car, I just start breaking earlier and hey, usually it works out. And that headlight, so what, I only drive during the day...

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[X0563511]

If only the monkey would start punching them back. Sometimes, it seems that pain or loss is the only way to teach some people.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[JernejL]

Did you?

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Martin Spamer]

... cars can only be properly and safely operated by mechanics, engineers, and aficionados? Obviously, that is not true. Cars are designed to be relatively simple to operate, yet can be highly reliable, safe, and low maintenance. At least for the majority of their lifetime, for the average person.

Car Drivers need a licence to ensure they are properly and safely operated.
Car Drivers can be sanctioned for dangerous or irresponsible practices.
Car Drivers require insurance to compensate people who suffer a lost caused by incompetence or recklessness of the Driver.
Cars must be regularly serviced and maintained by trained experts.
Cars must be registered & require regular safety inspections.

Some similar practices might avoid most of the problems with have with irresponsible PC owner/operators. e.g. worms, virus, UCE/UBE, phishing, fraud, DDOS.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[tepples]

to efforts to make PCs closed appliances like video game consoles.

In that case, how will students learn to program?

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[flowsnake]

And on the Linux-situation, if Linux is better, it might have been able to prevent anything else but the user home-directory being destroyed.

This is the wrong way around. The home user directory is the only important directory. It doesn't matter if the system files get trashed. It does matter if the user's irreplacable photos, videos and other documents are lost forever.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[theCoder]

Not to disagree with you, because the user's data is very important, but if the system gets trashed or exploited, it is very likely that the user's data will be destroyed as well.

It would be nice if it was easier for a general user to create sub accounts (or something similar) for the photo editor, web browser, mail reader, etc. This way, the photo editor could write to the photos, but the web browser, which might be compromised, could not. I don't know if there's anything like this at all that could be used in Linux (or Windows, for that matter). The closest I could think of would be multiple actual accounts, but that would be tricky to set up correctly and most users don't have access to make new users.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[sjames]

It's amazing to me that viruses haven't been more of a problem than they are. I suppose it's lack of imagination from the kiddez on one side and the purely commercial intent of the spam gangs.

Consider possibilities: The sexual harassment virus. It guesses your gender, picks someone who looks like a coworker from your address book and starts sending sexually harassing email. Let it co-ordinate with other infected machines so that there is only one designated bad-guy/pig at a time and it could have the courts snarled for decades.

Eraser: Spreads slowly and quietly. On command, it deletes all documents and database records containing a specified name to make them an un-person.

Lotto virus: ATMs at random proclaim you a winner and dispense $1000.

Taxman: attacks tax software. Randomly adds deductions for hand jobs as a business expense.

Samizdat: Downloads whatever's illegal in your jurisdiction, sends an anonymous tip then removes all trace of itself. (Who knows, perhaps that one does exist, prosecutors and plaintiffs don't WANT to find it, defendants can't afford the detailed analysis to find it.).

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[sjames]

THAT set of servers is probably just a best guess.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[NotBornYesterday]

Well, that's just great. Now in order to respond to you, I have to expand on your car analogy.

His point is that they are driving around with a FUBARed car and don't give a damn that it is a threat to themselves or others. They are in effect driving around with their radio turned way up so they can't hear their brakes squeal and grind as the exposed rivets in their pads write "01010101" repeatedly into their rotors as they careen towards a school zone with kids in the crosswalk.

Won't someone please think of the children?

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[drinkypoo]

It would be nice if it was easier for a general user to create sub accounts (or something similar) for the photo editor, web browser, mail reader, etc.

What would be nice if if it were easier for users to create capability lists so that they could make use of technologies like SElinux or Apparmor which are band-aids applied to specific programs instead of as a whitelist as they probably should be.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[RobertLTux]

of course a real geek will have a nuke and pave helper disc/disk so that would run

yank the network cable
install the base OS
run the sp3 installer
run your post sp3 patch tool
install printer
ask for her "computer keychain thing" to load her documents
install the various other programs including the free av from your N&PH disc
and then configure the updater to do so quietly

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Volante3192]

I'll admit I know nothing about cars and what would happen if maintenance is skipped.

But the point remains that the car would be in a not working state and it would not be something covered under warranty.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Opportunist]

Hard to break with broken breaks...

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Erikderzweite]

But they should. Industry wants to make general public to believe that computers are easy. Computer are complicated devices with great processing power. They offer the user a good deal of choices and freedoms. These freedoms, however, come at a price.
Millions computers linked together with a global network offer unmatched possibilities to gain knowledge and information, to communicate and play. It is a great power with which should come great responsibility. But it doesn't.
It is because of that common belief that computer is a toy and simple to use we have much more SPAM than normal e-mails.
The industry is only partly to blame for this disaster -- all they want is to sell more. Clueless users who pollute the network with their infected powerful machines are the main reason for this -- they have bought a PC where all they needed is possibly an Internet-enabled game console, bought it without knowing how to use it and they refuse to learn at the expense of others.

As for Linux -- you don't download software from the Web, you use package managers. One attack vector less, especially for newbies who don't know the Windows' way. Besides, diversity rules.

No one safe for Microsoft PR people can argue that right now a Linux desktop is very close to be a 100%-secure installation. Be it for better design or less widespread -- the point stands and it won't change overnight. Linux is secure. Even if that should change somehow some day in the distant future -- the needed infrastructure is ready, there already are AV products for Linux, one apt-get will take care of the rest.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[mcgrew]

There is nothing more I hate then to be behind some pos car throwing out noxious fumes in traffic.

You don't hate them nearly as much as the people driving them. If they could afford a new car, they'd buy one. But if you're working at Walmart in the daytime and McDonald's at night, there's no way you can afford anything better than a beater.

Most of them have faked smog reports, because lets face it, there is no WAY some of those cars can pass a smog check.

Not everywhere has smog checks. Here in Illinois the only two places are the Chicago area and the Metro East St Louis area.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Just Some Guy]

Oh, and you can blame MS all you want but the truth is that Linux, if as widely adopted and used by ordinary computer illiterate users, and as targeted by the malware writers as Windows is, wouldn't be a whole lot batter.

Bullshit. After the Morris Worm got everyone's attention, how many mass Unix server hacks have you seen, then though Unix has the majority of the server space? Oh, let me guess: that's different, because only experts run servers, and never n00bs with a Ubuntu disk and a desire to learn PHP and MySQL who enable everything by default because it's confusing at first.

The "attractive target" myth is stupid and debunked, and only Microsoft apologists trot it around.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[doshell]

What one markets to people is often what they want.

Fixed that for you.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[adolf]

Hrm. I've been running Windows on a few computers at home, for years, almost always without antivirus or firewall (aside from my router). I've not had any issues with viruses/malware on my computers since 1990.

The trick, if you can call it that, is to just not run crap from untrusted sources, and keep things patched.

I don't have any antivirus on my Linux boxen, either. You're probably thinking "But Linux doesn't have viruses/malware," you'd probably be mostly right...but that will change as more and more people with fewer and fewer wits about them start using it. Even the "but it's all open-source!" argument doesn't hold any weight -- when Jane Ubuntu User starts downloading stuff like an "OMG! Ponies!!!" screensaver from spank-the-monkey.com, she'll be using binaries -- not reading sources.

And once running, that binary can do anything it wants to Jane's files and have largely free reign (above port 1024) of the network. And if it wants to do more than that, all it has to do is fire up gksudo and ask Jane for permission, which she'll gladly grant. (Which sounds an awful lot like a certain not-so-popular Microsoft OS, doesn't it?)

Or, hell: As secure as X isn't, malware could just sit back and wait for gksudo to be run by something legitimate, and then log the keypresses. Nice, eh? Not even Vista has that problem.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[WuphonsReach]

Actually, I'd put the rash of windows attacks down to a few reasons:

1) People run Windows on the desktop, and the architecture is shared with the server line. Makes it easy to go with what you know. Criminal activity tends to start in one's comfort zone at the start. Which I think explains the more numerous attacks against IIS instead of Apache.

2) Market share. Windows desktops make up the majority. Which makes it a big fat target for botnets.

3) Architectural flaws. Easy to exploit. Somewhat subjective.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[steelfood]

You need to take a test to get a license to operate a vehicle. The purpose of the test is to ensure that anyone driving actually knows how to drive.

I'd like to see something similar for the networked computer. Not necessarily a use license, but tests that at least ensure minimal security competency before allowing users access to the outside. These "tests" don't have to be the question-answer sort, but something along the lines of putting the round peg in the round hole and the square peg in the square hole. I'll bet just making it illegal for OEM's to pre-install the OS would do wonders for security, as well as wreck havoc on the Microsoft OS monopoly.

Vehicles can kill if operated improperly (or properly, for that matter). So perhaps there should be a kill switch for the computers of people who either try to fake the test or still do stupid stuff after passing it. A virus that wipes a computer's hard drive a month after infection, or even a virus that disables the network device should be enough to discourage people from continuously doing dumb things.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[dbcad7]

Oh, and you can blame MS all you want but the truth is that Linux, if as widely adopted and used by ordinary computer illiterate users, and as targeted by the malware writers as Windows is, wouldn't be a whole lot batter.

I keep hearing things like this.. over and over.. However you would think, that all these malware and virii writers might take it as a challenge to do it now, perhaps just for the brief fame, or infamy. The whole "if it was more popular" argument doesn't fly very well, and is made be those who just can't (refuse to) believe that maybe, just maybe, the security model that Linux uses IS a whole lot better.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[arkhan_jg]

Ease of use, ability for users to install any app they like, security. If the user is untrained, you only get to pick two. Even if the user is trained, human error on their part will still foul things up sometimes.

Computers are complex machines, and expected to be able to do a huge range of things. Add into that the human error inherent in building any complex system on the cheap as fast as possible, and another bunch of humans who can make a bunch of money from finding their mistakes, and you get where we are today.

Some of the mistakes are longstanding, such as the assumption that the mail client could be trusted not to lie, or the more complex trust issues with DNS. Some of the mistakes are because when it gets done cheap and fast, mistakes are inevitable. Windows may be less secure on the whole than linux, but they operate under different pressures. Linux is still a server OS at its heart, and demands more knowledge of its userbase. Windows has been marketed as the OS anyone can use, and pushed out to as many people as possible to make as much money as possible. Security simply isn't a concern of most windows users; they just assume that's what computers are like, and getting it serviced by a tech periodically to clean it up is no different than getting your car serviced by a mechanic.

Either we insist users be trained to a higher standard, restrict what they're allowed to do (as businesses do), force them to do things securely by proper process, or we just accept that some unskilled people's computers will be preyed on by those less scrupulous.

Computers are not TVs or DVD players, but that's precisely what they've been marketed as; home appliances for the unskilled that could be connected to millions of others in the world. People accepted that uncritically, and were happy to get one at such cheap prices, and the expected it to 'just work' without having to do anything themselves. Malware is the inevitable result.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[arkhan_jg]

To drive a car, one needs to be trained to operate it safely. You're required to keep it maintained to a good mechanical standard, and it is tested regularly to make sure it meets those requirements. Failing to do so, and making mistakes (or deliberately ignoring the rules of operation) results in fines or jailtime.

Yet cars are far simpler devices than computers, and much easier to maintain (though admittedly with much greater consequences if you screw up). You want to see what can go wrong when such standards aren't enforced? Just look at the road fatalities of anywhere with no MOT and/or a basic driving test; where enforcement of the rules is non-existant.

Well, that's the internet right now - a barely regulated system where users are heavily marketed to buy computers designed to be as easy to use as possible, where they can connect it to the internet without having the first clue of safe operation, and they can install whatever the hell they like. Then you chuck in the number of people that can make oodles of money from exploiting their slackness with virtually no chance of legal consequence.

The biggest weakness in any computer system sits at the keyboard, whether its the coder chucking together code as quickly as possible as cheaply as possible, as that's what the market wants, or the sysadmin that lets them do what they want because he doesn't have the time or money to do it properly, or the user that simply doesn't care what happens to their system as long as they get their porn and pretty emoticons, or even the fraudster exploiting the gullible for profit.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[clarkkent09]

Most of successful attacks on Windows these days involve tricking clueless users into running malware code themselves, and Linux is almost as exposed to that as Windows. I say almost since I assume that fewer people will be running it with admin permissions than windows (although who's to say they won't, cause it's easier). Even then, if you can trick a user into running an executable it seems just as easy for that executable to throw up prompts such as "important system update in progress, please enter your root password to continue" or something and obtain complete access to the system just like on Windows.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[infolation]

Or phone their sons.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[StormyWeather]

People don't spend their time trying to figure out how to plant crap on your car in order to make it screw up or break, or blurt out porn advertisements in the middle of a CD you are listening to.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[kelnos]

Oh, and you can blame MS all you want but the truth is that Linux, if as widely adopted and used by ordinary computer illiterate users, and as targeted by the malware writers as Windows is, wouldn't be a whole lot batter.

[citation needed] (Though if that batter makes some nice cake, who am I to argue?)

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[EdIII]

I kinda get your point... but....

People do put sugar in your gas tank...

People do steal your gas out of your gas tank....

People do steal your tires and hubcaps...

People do steal your entire car....

People do put advertisements all over your windshield when you are in parking lots. All the time. Constantly.

The government does put those damn boots all over it.

The government does stop you when you get out of line. :)

In any case, I agree that the car analogy is not perfect. One of the posters that I was replying to used a car analogy, so I was just trying my best to stick with the theme.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[HideyoshiJP]

What about all the nice bits of metal shavings in your oilpan?

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[HideyoshiJP]

I know a lot of people who "know a guy" when it comes to safety inspections. They're perfectly happy paying him $20 to slap a sticker on the car and call it a day.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[cbiltcliffe]

Do you think lawmakers will care about that?

It'll essentially mean that you'll need a licence to program. The big software companies will love that - probably lobby for it - because it'll immediately put a lot of their smaller competition out of business, and their profits will go up, so the shareholders will love it.

5 years down the road, we'll start seeing spot shortages of good programmers, as old ones retire and the new ones all suck. Then big software company profits will go down, and they'll need to lobby for a new law that requires you to buy their products, which will continue to suck more and more.

Re:Really that bad of a thing?

[Lennie]

That's why the system should be setup to make regular backups of the home-directory of the user :-)

Yay?

[ThrowAwaySociety]

At least this way they'll get cleaned up and (possibly) patched, right?

Compare it with biological malware. Ebola causes more damage than AIDS, but it's less of a concern, because it kills the host dead pretty quickly. AIDS causes more havoc, because the host survives for such a long time.

Re:Yay?

[jd]

I'm not convinced these machines will, but the pain suffered when they are erased so publicly might result in greater investment in security.

On the other hand, users and corporations alike often rely on the "many targets, few victims" principle that says that it's only other people who are likely to be hurt.

Sad to say, short of Governments imposing minimum standards for IT security (just the same as they impose minimum standards for car safety in many countries), the best hope might actually be a major disaster, as ironic as that sounds. Sometimes, burned hands really do learn the best, as much as I hate that line of thinking.

Re:Yay?

[L4t3r4lu5]

No, the havoc is caused because the host survives symptom free for a long time, potentially spreading the disease for years before being tested and diagnosed, especially in less developed countries.

A guy bleeding from his nose, eyes, and ears is a pretty sure sign that you shouldn't shake his hand.

Re:Yay?

[L4t3r4lu5]

Nor can Ebola. My point was that AIDS is symptomless until the immune system actually begins to fail, causing the symptoms of other illnesses (cancers, pneumonia, general infections) to take hold and cause concern.

HIV has a typical incubation period of two to four weeks with the second stage lasting up to a month. This stage has symptoms, but they're similar to influenza. Third stage is latency, where the virus can remain symptomless for two weeks to twenty years.

Ebola Haemorrhagic Fever attacks the lining of your blood vessels and platelets, meaning your blood can't coagulate. It can kill you in 4 days through hypovolemic shock (loss of blood) as it literally is pumped out of every orrifice you have.

Re:Yay?

[ThrowAwaySociety]

No, the havoc is caused because the host survives symptom free for a long time, potentially spreading the disease for years before being tested and diagnosed, especially in less developed countries.

A guy bleeding from his nose, eyes, and ears is a pretty sure sign that you shouldn't shake his hand.

That's definitely a major factor, but the even if the presentation of symptoms were the same, the fact is that you can spread a great deal more disease in five years than two weeks.

good...

[advocate_one]

about time windows boxes self destructed... people might start to question windows security issues more if their boxes died rather than just slowed down...

Re:good...

[DeadDecoy]

If we're lucky. Odds are MS will use this as an opportunity and say: See why you need Win7? Upgrade now for the measly price of 99.99$.

Re:good...

[Lennie]

Not only that, people will just buy a new computer if they are really stupid and it will just be an other sale for Microsoft, then again this was asia...

Re:good...

[Fatal67]

And if they all switch over to unix, you'd just have a bunch of clueless unix users. Except now, you'd have enough users for them to actually bother writing malware for it.

Be careful what you wish for.

Re:good...

[Arancaytar]

If their so-called "security patches" didn't contain anti-competitor tricks (changing default settings from FF to IE, Google to Bing, etc.), "anti-piracy" trojans and other crap so often, then their users might have more motivation to install the patches. Me, I stopped running the updater when IE7 came out, and spent the rest of my time on Windows figuring out how to migrate (now using Ubuntu).

Re:good...

[rastilin]

If their so-called "security patches" didn't contain anti-competitor tricks (changing default settings from FF to IE, Google to Bing, etc.), "anti-piracy" trojans and other crap so often, then their users might have more motivation to install the patches. Me, I stopped running the updater when IE7 came out, and spent the rest of my time on Windows figuring out how to migrate (now using Ubuntu).

Yeah you have to wonder what they were thinking when they made the judgment call to start changing defaults. But I doubt most users consider this when deciding to patch.

Re:good...

[noundi]

Yeah you're not stereotyping at all. You're right, Linux propagation is not about "improving the world's computer safety". Life is not a comic book and we're not IT vigilantes looking to fight the unjust. I'll let you in on a secret, we all use Linux for various reasons. Some because of the copyleft, some because it's free of charge, some because once it's yours it's actually yours and not on lease and others for many other reasons. For me it's more about the terms. I mainly dislike Windows or OS X due to the terms. These terms are strictly due to the policies of each company producing the OSs, thus it is not the software itself but e.g. MS and Apple that make me not want to use it. There are of course other aspects but I believe that they are merely a product of the terms, and that if the terms would change so would these, such as interoperability and freedom of choice rather than dependency.

Re:good...

[rastilin]

It's not that we don't care. We care deeply. But these users have been told - again and again and again - that Windows is insecure, to run anti-virus software and keep their systems up-to-date, and make regular backups.

I doubt the users have been told at all. The non-technical individual will most likely never see even ONE of the sites that say these things nor are they likely to have the full ramifications explained to them in a way that they will understand.

Mainstream media tells people to run anti-virus software and patch their systems.

Anti-virus is massively slow, each one has a mostly overlapping subset of viruses that they catch and almost none of them can catch new viruses while generating a massive amount of false positives. It's no wonder people don't use them.

Linux people tell them they should run linux, not Windows.

I won't argue generalities. As the poster below me said, we all use systems for a reason. I use Windows despite having experience with Ubuntu, Gentoo and Debian because it suits my purposes in a way Linux does not. All the talk of "Linux does x,y and z that can be thrown my way is not helpful because it doesn't run the closed source Windows-only drivers from a third party company that I need.

Now I'd like to think that should my work all be destroyed, despite my care, the helpful Linux users won't openly cheer to my face.

Re:good...

[rastilin]

Yeah you're not stereotyping at all.

No I'm really not. I'm responding directly to a comment expressing joy at the possible destruction of my work since the last backup. Especially since that comment was rated 5, indicating at least some agreement from bystanders. If you drive a Toyota it's bad from to cheer when a different brand of car's brakes jam and it goes off a cliff with people inside.

Re:good...

[noundi]

You replied to a comment and write "Linux users". I don't know what language you speak but in English this is called stereotyping since that comment does not reflect all Linux users. And about your car analogy the same rule applies. You can't assume that all Toyota owners act a certain way simply because one did.

Re:good...

[rastilin]

You replied to a comment and write "Linux users". I don't know what language you speak but in English this is called stereotyping since that comment does not reflect all Linux users. And about your car analogy the same rule applies. You can't assume that all Toyota owners act a certain way simply because one did.

That is true. I was wrong to stereotype.

Re:good...

[calmofthestorm]

I care because their compromised machines mess with mine.

Re:good...

[TheP4st]

I doubt the users have been told at all. The non-technical individual will most likely never see even ONE of the sites that say these things nor are they likely to have the full ramifications explained to them in a way that they will understand.

Hah! It might be different were you come from but in both my native country as well as the one I am now residing in the top newspapers feature articles along those lines regularly. During the Conficker debacle it was next to impossible to avoid reading articles about the importance to update your system, get AV and Firewall switch to alternative browsers etc.

Sorry to break your bubble but it's been a long time since that argument carried any real weight.

Re:good...

[rastilin]

Hah! It might be different were you come from but in both my native country as well as the one I am now residing in the top newspapers feature articles along those lines regularly. During the Conficker debacle it was next to impossible to avoid reading articles about the importance to update your system, get AV and Firewall switch to alternative browsers etc.

Things are different here. My argument carries weight still.

Re:good...

[drinkypoo]

about time windows boxes self destructed...

You must be new here. My windows boxes self-destruct all the goddamn time.

Re:good...

[Dr_Barnowl]

Indeed ; for me, the "practical" motivation is the greatest. If there's something wrong with the software, I can actually fix it instead of blindly downloading updates and patches in the hope that it fixes the problem. Hell, Ubuntu want your patches so much they even give you a build server for them ; I fixed my problem (with MythTV), uploaded the patch, and now my machine just downloads the patched package when I install it. Far less expensive than a support contract, and the problem probably gets fixed in less time (and it's much less frustrating - you aren't waiting on someone else's idea of what constitutes "important", you don't have to wait for a release or hotfix, and you learn new skills at the same time).

Try creating your own personal version of MS software (say, Windows Media Centre), patched just the way you like it, and see how far it gets you.

The performance, reliability, robustness, zero cost, freedom of speech, reciprocal helpfulness, and yes, security, these things are also good.

Re:good...

[mcgrew]

Life is not a comic book

Mine is - I live in Springfield. Here's our Mayor and here's the head of our electric company.

Some of the characters here are even weirder.

Re:good...

[kelnos]

It's funny that you've painted the parent as a Linux user when he said no such thing. He also stated very little about his motivations for wanting said Windows machines to self-destruct, aside from suggesting that it might make people pay attention to security a bit more. Which is a good thing, even if the trigger for it is a bit painful. Please, there's no need to put words in people's mouths.

And when did "my computer got wiped" count as "suffering"? I'd be pretty upset if it happened to me, but I don't think suffering is quite the right word.

Re:good...

[wvmarle]

And unfortunately no user stops and asks themselves "why do I have to pay more to a company that sold me a product that breaks this easily? Shouldn't it come with warranty or so?" followed by the question "are there any alternatives?"

This is something people do with many if not all other products. Cars, TV sets, telephones. If it breaks too easily, look for alternatives. Even if it isn't broken, look at the competition. For some strange reason this doesn't happen for software.

Re:good...

[wvmarle]

You mean other parts of the world are smarter than that? When an American's computer breaks they will buy a non-MS based one?

Or you just trying to troll?

I think the average Asian who you imply is stupid is way smarter than you, if this comment is anything to go by.

Re:good...

[Lennie]

No, no, no, I mean in Asia most software is pirated, if I'm not mistaken, so it's not a sale for Microsoft in that case.

+1 Insightful

[zooblethorpe]

This might just be a GOOD thing; when these compromised twits wake up to a completely wiped drive, it might be the thing that drives them to read up on computer security a little bit, perhaps switch to a more secure browser, buy a router with a hardware firewall, etc. Not to mention, it will also wipe out all the aforementioned crapware.

Precisely my thought on reading the summary -- good riddance to some severely compromised systems on the one hand, and on the other, I sincerely hope the users gain a clue.

Getting hit with the clue bat hurts. Otherwise, folks tend not to remember.

Cheers,

Re:+1 Insightful

[religious freak]

Who wants to take odds that a malware author will act to save these machines? It's not an impossibility - who would want to potentially lose many thousand boxes when you could just push a fix down to the machines? These machines are assets in the malware authors' "business".

It'll be interesting to watch. If it happens, it'll be kind of like a geek version of spy vs spy.

It's already Friday in most time zones.

[Animats]

It's already Friday in most time zones. Is this happening?

Re:It's already Friday in most time zones.

[Auxis]

It doesn't seem to be happeAOIFJ($)FJ@()F#J@F)(J@2)(*@)^&#!)%!(#) &(#509382523)(#$*F****NO CARRIER****

Re:It's already Friday in most time zones.

[laejoh]

Damn, you beat me to #@#ÃÃoÃ!!mskkd 0ÃÃÃ"@" ***NO CARRIER***

Re:It's already Friday in most time zones.

[Lavene]

It's already Friday in most time zones. Is this happening?

Been Friday for more than ten hours here. Haven't noticed anythUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Nah

[copponex]

I'm still running a huge network of unpatched XP SP1 boxes and

Re:Nah

[Megane]

Oh noes! Candlejack got to his unpat

Re:Omg, think of the pr0n

[Patrik_AKA_RedX]

Let's hope the guy who's good at curing cancer is also good at making backups...

Seriously. It overrides every attached HD. How well does a RAID stand up to that in terms of data protection? Or an attached USB HD?

Independence Day

[Dr. Eggman]

I've been trying to figure out whose independence day it is referring to. Based on Wikipedia, it's not Korea's (North or South) China, Japan, the US, or Russia. Nearest I can figure for Friday, July 10th is... the Bahamas?

...Unless it means next Friday, July 17th which celebrates South Korea's Constitution Day; the day that the Korean Constitution was proclaimed in 1948. But, no, clearly it's the Bahamas.

Re:Independence Day

[TapeCutter]

The attacks started on the 4th July weekend.

Re:Independence Day

[ntufar]

North Korean news agency (http://twitter.com/kcna_dprk) keeps celebrating 15th Anniversary of Demise of Kim Il Sung. Maybe it is this one.

Re:Independence Day

[L4t3r4lu5]

Yup, it's actually nothing to do with the Koreans. We just used them as a patsy.

Sincerely,

Her Brittanic Magesty, Lizzy-babe.

Re:Independence Day

[TapeCutter]

Or another way of looking at it; wiping the HDD will make them independent of the botnet.

uh what?

[roc97007]

> From The Washington Post's Security Fix blog, the malware is 'designed to download a payload from a set of Web servers. Included in that payload is a Trojan horse program that overwrites the data on the hard drive with a message that reads "memory of the independence day," followed by as many "u" characters as it takes to write over every sector of every physical drive attached to the compromised system.'

Did the washington post writer get this wrong, or is this a misreported urban legend? The "trojan horse" part doesn't make any sense -- the computer is already compromised.

Re:uh what?

[Datamonstar]

From what I understand - and that isn't much - the "trojans" are actually named as known Windows executables, so yeah... in a sense they are trojans.

Re:uh what?

[icebike]

I bet you lash out at impossibilities on sifi movies as well.

Why sweat the details since you have already bought into the myth?

Re:uh what?

[roc97007]

Well, for one thing, sifi and syfy are not correct. Sorry, they're just not. If we just accept every unnecessary simplification of the language, we'll be reduced to point-and-grunt in next to no time. (I know teenagers who are already in this state.)

I'm willing to a certain amount of suspension of disbelief for fiction, but for things that can actually hurt me, I require a reasonable amount of precision.

Man

[copponex]

You know you live in a fucked up country when you collectively hate the Bahamas.

Hats off, Kim Jong-Il. That's going to be a tough one to beat.

Well...

[TheSpoom]

Sucks to be running Windows.

*gets back to work in gedit*

Re:Well...

[Shikaku]

Wine.

Re:Well...

[Trouvist]

Now you can stop being smug and read this:

It's for photoshop CS4 IN linux. Says "GOLD" to me.

Re:Well...

[j-stroy]

Since I'm reading this as I'm killing time, while I'm installing XP on a Macbook, in a "Parallels" virtual environment, I'm getting a kick out of this.

Making a fresh virtual image of OS X next. Then, which free linux flavour is fun these days? Does Gentoo still have a decent live CD? Apparently I can even install Windows 7, not sure why I would tho.

Re:Well...

[zooblethorpe]

Do I have to?

Re:Well...

[GF678]

Does CS4 run flawlessly in Wine? If anything breaks or requires workarounds, it's not worth it.

Re:Well...

[noundi]

If you're actually asking this:

Then, which free linux flavour is fun these days?

then don't even think about this:

Does Gentoo still have a decent live CD?

Re:Well...

[noundi]

I'm feeling kind today.

Re:Well...

[j-stroy]

It seems I can virtualize any disk image, whether it is generated from an install, or a "crystalized" live CD.

If I instantiate from a live CD image within OS X, then I have a consistent read-only OS with what I might run elsewhere off a CD & memory stick.

OS X becomes "home", live CD becomes "away", sandboxed XP gets started "clean" each time, so no cruft n kak. I've felt dodgy using so many systems since rootkits started making the rounds that I'm ready to be double gloved. And anyways, its always a tightrope with XP, all those DLL's n registry entries just come crashing down in an ugly heap, leaving me to go back to a ghost image, or weighing the benefits of a re-build/repair, vs fresh re-install.. and all because of some bunk adware laden utility which seemed like a good idea at the time..

I finally feel completely liberated. I advocate buying a Mac, with XP and Parallels as a base system, add linux and stir.. I'm new to Parallels, so I'm sure It'll pinch me some way or other.

Re:Well...

[noundi]

My point is that if you're looking to play around then I presume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're not interested in cutting down a tree, carving out a board and pieces, painting them and then play chess. If you're looking to play around you can try Ubuntu. I'll let you in on a secret, although some Linux-nazis will tell you that Ubuntu is worthless most of us understand the need for it and don't think it's bad at all, rather the contrary. Remember that all dists fit different audiences, and that the Linux-nazi and you are not in the same. I'll end my post with a famous quote:

Don't go chasing waterfalls
Please stick to the rivers and the lakes that you're used to
I know that you're gonna have it your way or nothing at all
But I think you're moving too fast

Re:Well...

[donaldm]

Photoshop has enough trouble crashing without adding to the issues. If only The GIMP had a proper interface.

It does try GimpShop .

Re:Well...

[tepples]

Sucks to be running Windows.

How about "sucks to be playing video games in mouse-and-keyboard genres"? Or "sucks to be developing and testing desktop software usable by the majority of home users"?

Re:Well...

[CFBMoo1]

*Tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink*
I know right?

*Tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink tink*
Oh well, back to work.

*Chissles submit on his stone tablet as the EMP goes off*

*Ka-tink*
[Submit]

Re:Well...

[Daimanta]

Beer.

Re:Well...

[Psyborgue]

Scroll down on that link. "Photoshop CS4 crashing when opening complex PSD files" and the other user's comments hardly indicates usable software.

Re:Well...

[m.ducharme]

Apparently I can even install Windows 7, not sure why I would tho.

I just recently installed Windows 7 on my Macbook as well: it runs pretty well for a release candidate, and is fast, maybe faster than my XP partition, which means the world is going to be living with W7 for a long time. That alone is good enough reason to have a copy kicking around.

Re:Well...

[Khyber]

No, sucks to be a Windows user that doesn't have a clue.

No firewall, no AV, and I know to not download shit I didn't ask for.

Kinda funy, right around the same time this started happening camfrog came under attack. People were getting random file send requests from friends on their list (and stupidly accepting them and opening them, without thinking.) and if they got compromised, it hijacked their account, sent the message to everyone else on that user list, and tried to propagate.

But see, when you look at a filename and you see .jpg.scr, you should know better. CHECK THE EXTENSION.

*gets back to securing the laptop for airplane travel*

Re:Well...

[TheSpoom]

I was you, a while ago. I was running Windows without any AV or anti-malware because I had common sense.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to run Windows well. I'm saying that I also "upgraded" to Vista, and then four months later realized that Ubuntu made things a hell of a lot faster in general (both for computing speed and for productivity).

But good luck to you; to each their own OS.

We both missed it.

[copponex]

The correct joke would be:

Everything looks fine !@#-)@^Y^)$_*^*$&@) memory of the independence dayuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

And then the lameness filter would ruin it anyway.

It's worse than you think

[Anonymous Coward]

NO.

In fact the S. Korean government is publically saying that North Korea is to suspect, along with some "pro-North" factions in South Korea.

Or, in terms you are more familiar with: "OMG! TEH TERRORISTS! WHERE IS NATIONAL SECURITY?"

This will be an opportunity for the current government to distract people from their having put our nation into a pile of horseshit, and to round up some anti-government people for being "pro-North" and "hating freedom." Well, yes, *some* of them may be crazy enough to be pro-North, but many will be just innocent citizens who just can't stand any more crap from our current president.

Sounds familiar? Heh.

Re:It's worse than you think

[Erikderzweite]

Does no one in S. Korea see that this is a complete and utter bullshit? N. Korea has neither Internet access to raise nor money to acquire skilled hackers.

happy ending

[Errtu76]

I'm glad there's a happy ending to this story. Thousands of unpatched windows machines will cease to exist, hurray!

Re:happy ending

[powerlord]

I'm glad there's a happy ending to this story. Thousands of unpatched windows machines will cease to exist, hurray!

Prof H Farnsworth: "The Jedis will feel that one for sure."

Old Ben: I feel a great disturbance in the Net. Its as if a million unpatched Windows machines cried out in pain, and then were silenced.

Homer Simpson: "Woohoo!"

No SC players?

[Arivia]

I'm surprised they aren't filling the storage with "kekekekekekekekekekekeke"...

Re:No SC players?

[H0p313ss]

I'm surprised they aren't filling the storage with "kekekekekekekekekekekeke"...

I can't wait for the Hollywood version: <gravelly voice>On July 4th America celebrates it's independence day, but on July 10th the gold farmers break free! KEK KEK KEK!</gravelly voice>

Welcome to my world!

[siloko]

that a repeated sequence of "u" after "memory of the independence day" ...... makes no sense from any point of view.

memory of the independence day UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU mofo for even thinking about reminding me of that film
memory of the independence day UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU lost
memory of the independence day UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU won
memory of the independence day UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU can have a statue
memory of the independence day UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU must be joking, I was pissed as a newt!
memory of the independence day UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU look cute as a panda

well, maybe not the last one . . .

Re:Welcome to my world!

[Megane]

memory of the independence day UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU can haz cheezburger

What is the source?

[xenophrak]

Over at Yahoo ( http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090710/ap_on_hi_te/as_skorea_cyber_attack ) they are reporting that there are only 86 IP addresses causing the outages:

"SEOUL, South Korea -
Cyber attacks that caused a wave of Web site outages in the U.S. and South Korea
used 86 IP addresses in 16 countries, South Korea's spy agency told lawmakers
Friday, amid suspicions North Korea was behind the effort."

Now, I'm a little skeptical that they didn't mean ISP instead of IP, but if it is true that there are only 86 hosts generating this much fanfare, then the network admins should be strung up with cat6 for not just blackholing these punks at the edge router. I guess we get the best govt. IT we can afford, right?

Re:What is the source?

[remus.cursaru]

86 IPs doesn't necessary mean 86 host, don't forget NAT/masquerading.

Re:What is the source?

[garyisabusyguy]

over at DarkReading they say: Earlier Wednesday, the National Intelligence Service said in a statement that 12,000 computers in South Korea and 8,000 computers overseas had been infected and used for the cyberattack. Seems a little more realistic for a national threat

Re:What is the source?

[value_added]

Now, I'm a little skeptical that they didn't mean ISP instead of IP

When you read news of any kind, it's required that you be skeptical, read between the lines, compare with other sources, etc. However, when you read tech related news, you first have to stop and wonder if the reporter knows WTF they're writing.

When this story first hit the airwaves, Katie Couric (anchorwoman for ABC News) described the DDoS as security breaches of government websites. IP, ISP -- it's all just "arcane technical jargon"[1], right?

For now, we should all assume that it's 86 IP addresses. The submitter probably picked this story from a number of possible sources and selected the best one. If he/she was lax, I'm sure the editors would have caught the error. ;-)

----------------
1. Actual quote from a Slashdot post that was modded +5 Informative.

Re:What is the source?

[mlts]

I've seen that misstated multiple times recently. News sources saying that the US government machines got "compromised", then some piece lambasting the US government for being insecure. Apparently, they did not understand the difference between a swarm of hosts flooding a victim machine so it can't take legit requests versus someone breaking into the machine and obtaining data.

In this case, there is almost nothing that can be done to prevent one of these attacks by the victim.

However, to a lot of people a DDoS and a complete pwning are the same thing. A down host is a down host regardless if it were cracked and all drives zeroed out versus a bunch of machines sending bogus requests.

Yes, a DDoS is bad. However, a box that is compromised and rooted is a thousand times worse.

Re:What is the source?

[Culture20]

When this story first hit the airwaves, Katie Couric (anchorwoman for ABC News) described the DDoS as security breaches of government websites. IP, ISP -- it's all just "arcane technical jargon"[1], right?

Just yesterday afternoon, a local TV reporter was talking about "the new virus, called Distributed Denial of Service" that was tying up government websites. They really need to pass their tech stories through a technical reviewer before they air.

Re:What is the source?

[doshell]

True. But no matter how many boxes are behind a NAT, all packets coming from there are marked with the same source address. So it should have been fairly easy to look at the source addresses and block those 86 IPs, regardless of how many boxes are NATed behind them. I think that was the GP's point.

Re:What is the source?

[kelnos]

... which is pretty irrelevant: blocking 86 IP addresses will also block any machines masquerading behind them.

WOW

[someone1234]

Actually it does something useful.
This will teach all negligent users to actually defend against zombifying.
One of my colleagues says, he wouldn't care if his machine is a zombie as long as it doesn't slow the machine significantly.

Re:WOW

[beowulfcluster]

It won't teach 'all' negligent users anything. At most the ones that will get their drives wiped and plenty of those will just buy a new computer since the old one's 'broken' and continue the same way as before. There were still negligent users left after CiH and there'll still be loads left after this.

Blood in the water

[Pecisk]

This will be ugly and exciting at once. First of all, I bet all mob supported worm writers will be fuming, because someone broke silent agreement that there should be no destructive viruses, otherwise people would start to actually care. And if people care => more correctly patched boxes => less posibility to own them => no profit at all.

Second, it will send very interesting message to people who have ignored subject of IT security so far. Imagine company with 100 computers suddenly standing on nothing but the air - no data, no OSes to work with, nothing. Third, I am afraid that some control maniacs (those who usually end with having an actual power to be maniacal) will use it as an excuse to impose more control on Internet. Of course, it will be laughted at by serious IT security specs, but those freaks will freak out and it will be interesting and frightening at same time.

Re:Blood in the water

[icebike]

This will be ugly and exciting at once.

You mean like Y2K?

Didn't happen.

This won't either.

Re:Blood in the water

[Opportunist]

What's scary about that last part is that it is entirely possible, and that the clueless sheeple will actually applaud and welcome it as a bold step against those pesky malware writers. Finally we'll be safe, we will have a law against infections, and mandatory malware filters, and mandatory security software under government surveillance on every PC.

Re:Blood in the water

[Pecisk]

Well, to be frank, Y2K didn't happen partly because it was hype, sure, and partly because everyone jumped on it and if there was serious systems which could fail, they were fixed. Claiming that all it was hot air would be going in same absolutes like claiming that it could have definitely caused end of the world.

This time, I am not so sure that it is Y2K type. It could be pure sensationalism, sure, but such virus can be written by anyone. I simply see it as virus authors so far haven't been interested of causing damage to PCs - mostly because they need them to do their DDoSing and spam spewing.

Re:Blood in the water

[DeanFox]

"So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause."

Hardly Good At All

[bazald]

Thanks for posting. I honestly cannot understand the nasty comments coming from some other people in this thread. A few people making a joke is one thing, but to have dozens of Slashdotters honestly describing this situation as good is rather bizarre.

Even if learning the hard way is the only way for some people, that doesn't mean we have to have no compassion for them.

Re:Hardly Good At All

[EdIII]

I think your reaction is rather emotional. That's not a bad thing, and I understand your empathy and compassion for the victims here.

Being impartial, having these systems destroyed is going to be a good thing ultimately. It's the bigger picture here. A lot of posters are expressing this point.

It's not a lack of compassion for these unfortunate individuals. Certainly not on my part. However, it is better for the community at large that these infected systems get removed, regardless of damage to the owners. After all, they are already causing damage to the rest of the community through their ignorance of what their systems are actually doing to others.

I would think that most of these unfortunate victims would agree if they were actively harming somebody else, that it should be stopped. It would be rather strange to have one of them state that they should be allowed to continue participating in these Botnets until somebody makes them aware of the situation, or until something causes them to fix their systems without losing any data.

Shirts!

[binaryseraph]

I'm making that a tee shirt.
"memory of the independence day, uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu"

FFS

[Psychotria]

Why don't YOU get a clue? Punishing the user of an insecure OS will not do a damn thing. It will not do a damn thing to increase security. There will just be lots of people who are fucking upset because they lost a whole heaps of important files or memories (e.g. photos). It is not THEIR fault that windows is so fucked up (is it)? So, why do you take delight in them losing their data?

So, I hit YOU with you so called "clue bat" and I hope your meagre brain manages to parse it. I hope you remember this.

Cheers,

Re:FFS

[jimicus]

There are two types of people in this world - those who make regular backups and those who have never suffered data loss. The net result is the same, I don't see how data loss through an insecure OS is any different to data loss through theft, fire, HDD failure.

People in IT go on about backups like a mantra, repeating it like Ballmer repeats "Developers! Developers! Chair...er... Developers!". Yet I guarantee you not a single person walking this green earth has ever paid proper attention to that mantra - at least, not until they lost something important.

I don't have a great deal of sympathy for anyone whose data is at serious risk from something like this. They'd have lost it all eventually anyhow, one way or another.

Re:FFS

[EdIII]

As long as we are passing around the Clue Bat..... Let me whack you one time too.

Nobody here is punishing the users. They are victims. The criminals that made them victims, are just killing them after raping them repeatedly. Please forgive such a graphic analogy.

By having those systems destroyed, there is an inescapable conclusion that follows: They are no longer participating in a Botnet that is harming other people and corporations .

Does it have a chance of changing their behavior? Of opening up their eyes to security and the implications of being added to a Botnet? Who knows. You may be right that it, "it will not do a damn thing to increase security".

It's absolutely horrible that these users are victims and they have to suffer such losses. However, these posters are right. It's a good thing..... for the rest of us. Unsophisticated users and Slashdot geeks alike.

That does not mean, I am an ass**** or that I have no compassion. Just recognizing that these victims can no longer be forced to participate in harming other people.

There.... Okay, who else wants the Clue Bat?

Re:FFS

[arh9623]

Hmmm, nice bat.

Life sucks, bad shit happens, and the best you can do is try to survive. If you don't learn your lessons, shit keeps on raining down. I think our society will be none the better for nannying.

Don't get me wrong. I hope this help some people think more about backups. However I'm sure we all know someone who totals car after car with out changing their habits.

Re:FFS

[Psychotria]

I understand what you're saying, Edlll, and I cannot say I disagree. But my original reply was to a user who seems to have his head so far up his arse that he cannot seem to see the obvious. This discussion is about an established Botnet that appears (from the summary) to be about to self destruct and take all it's "users" with it. zooblethorpe implies that this is a good thing and that the victims are getting what they deserve for using an insecure OS. I, on the other hand, disagree with his comment and think that it (the comment) is bullshit. I also think that he/she is an idiot, based on the comment. To say (in his words) that the users are getting what they deserve is utter rubbish and I cannot believe that his comments is +5. It's an ignorant comment from a person who, through his comments, is stupider than the users he is deriding.

Re:FFS

[frn123]

Surely there is a third group. I would bet it to be the biggest of three.

Those who have suffered data loss, but STILL dont do backups!

Re:FFS

[silanea]

It is not THEIR fault that windows is so fucked up (is it)?

I have been running a Windows machine without a local firewall and without an on-access AV software for over two years now, and if the periodic checks on the machine and the logs in my gateway's firewall don't deceive me, it's infection-free. And I certainly don't spend my online time at disney.com. So no, it's not the users' fault that Windows is insecure. But it is their fault if they manage to get their system compromised by not following the most basic safety procedures.

And judging by the many pointless discussions I have had about this subject in corporate environments, nevermind the clueless and disinterested home users, anything less aggressive than killing their data will not drive the point home.

So I wholeheartedly support the GP's point of view. If this malware causes widespread massive data loss it might

1. educate those users who are directly affected and
2. make it into international news and thereby get the issue on people's minds.

Yes, this attack might turn out to be a great thing.

Re:FFS

[Joce640k]

They might have a brand new super-exploit ready to go. This world-wide-reformat would get rid of competitors and sanitize the machines ready for their new overlords.

Re:FFS

[m.ducharme]

What do backups have to do with data loss from a virus or worm? What are the odds, do you think, of the backups not also being infected?

Re:FFS

[sydb]

You outed my kind. I even have a DLT autochanger, but it sits disused in the shed. Point is, my data is not that important and there are multiple copies of the stuff that is important, in particular my CV, just because I keep switching computers or copying stuff to other machines in the course of normal activity.

Also there's nothing like massive data loss to reduce the time spent managing files.

Re:FFS

[Malenx]

Hah!

Being in IT I've seen this attitude for years. We have the proper guidelines for where to save data, and still high level management saves their work to their desktops.

Honestly, the few times I've seen everything disappear, I've always laughed inside. Then I let my boss know what happened so he can break the news. The only thing that will band-aid this enough is going to be vm desktops that are synced with a central file server. I can't wait for that day to come.

Re:FFS

[sydb]

Guidelines do not a system make. There's nothing stopping you putting the Desktops on a server which gets backed up, other than excuses.

Re:FFS

[polle404]

Yet I guarantee you not a single person walking this green earth has ever paid proper attention to that mantra

What's "Developers! Developers! Developers!" gonna help with my missing backup?

Seriously, I thought "good ridance" as well, but then i dawned on me...
all these people are going to turn to their local geek for a fix...

guess what? that's us, folks.

Re:FFS

[BlueKitties]

I learned to keep regular backups after...

I lost some RPG data on a PS1. I applied this hard lesson to my computer life. ;p

Re:FFS

[belphegore]

I hope you dutifully backed up a copy of the HD-wiping virus!

Re:FFS

[jimicus]

Yep. A service for which you can charge, if it's any comfort.

Re:FFS

[kelnos]

As another poster mentioned, if they're not making regular backups, they're at risk for losing their data for a variety of other reasons.

But to answer your question, yes, it *is* their fault that Windows is fucked up. The collective "yes, Windows sucks, but I'm going to tolerate it," attitude in the world is exactly why Window is as fucked up as it is. If thousands (tens of thousands? millions?) of computers get wiped because of this, that's the fault of everyone who runs Windows and doesn't care enough about security to keep themselves safe (either through backups, or constant attention to security).

Sorry, but Windows users need to accept some responsibility for the platform they've chosen. I won't delight in all these people losing data, but if it causes people to wise up and be more concerned about security, I'll consider it a net win.

Re:FFS

[kelnos]

Point is, my data is not that important and there are multiple copies of the stuff that is important, in particular my CV, just because I keep switching computers or copying stuff to other machines in the course of normal activity.

So basically you're saying... you do backups. Even if you don't have a specific "back up these files" activity, what you do amounts to having backups.

Re:FFS

[Hucko]

Backing up the virus is irrelevant; the re-installer should be doing so from a verifiable clean source followed by an effective anti-malware app.

Sure it would be better to have not backed up the malware initially but it should be surmountable.

Of course, if they weren't running a anti-malware program, they probably weren't backing up either. If they are lucky they haven't cleared their Yahoo! email account out yet.

If I was still in Tech Support

[Opportunist]

I'd be scrambling now to get that day off. Failing that, I'll find a doc that writes me a sick leave, if necessary for a bribe. Failing that I'd quit.

There is no way anyone in support will survive that day without a ringing in his ears.

Re:If I was still in Tech Support

[jimicus]

There is no way anyone in support will survive that day without a ringing in his ears.

Yes, that would be the telephone. It kind of goes with the job in tech support.

Re:If I was still in Tech Support

[icebike]

You should just quit before they fire you.

If your site is that compromised that you have anything to worry about, and you relied on Slashdot to bring this to your attention, being shot at sunrise should bring relief.

Re:If I was still in Tech Support

[Darinbob]

How can they fire you if all the HR computers are dead?

Re:If I was still in Tech Support

[L4t3r4lu5]

You think having the day off during a disaster is going to fly? You'd best be in a foreign country when they call you, as your colleagues would be pulling all-night shifts to bring everything back up, especially if it's a big business / mission-critical system affected.

If I'd found you knew of the possibility too? I'd fire you and refuse to give references. Either that, or they'd read "Work-shy POS who runs at the first sign of trouble. Employ at own risk." with evidence to prove it!

Re:If I was still in Tech Support

[imakemusic]

...Mr Anderson

Re:If I was still in Tech Support

[Opportunist]

Don't gimme that lecture, will ya? I spent my share of weekends pulling 2x24 shifts to recover from the havoc an "expert company" wreaked to the office servers so people could come in on mondays and actually work instead of just sitting there being expensive and inproductive, ok?

There's a fine line between saving the company and being a masochist. You would come in and let people abuse you verbally for something that's their own fuckin' fault because they are too effing STUPID to keep their machine secure? GOOD RIDDANCE!

I guess that's part of the reason why I decided tech support might not be the right venue for me.

But talking about firing, I wouldn't fire a guy that takes the day off because of it. I'd fire him if he didn't tell me why so I can actually prepare for the impact. Yes, I'd actually give him that day off. See it as some sort of reward for being first of all honest, and second for being observant enough to actually know this, ponder for a moment how it might affect the company and then have the sense to pass that information on. I usually reward my employees for critical information, and so far I fared quite well with that policy.

Information is power. And in the in-company backstabbing, it's a powerful weapon too.

Re:If I was still in Tech Support

[L4t3r4lu5]

You would come in and let people abuse you verbally for something that's their own fuckin' fault because you are too effing STUPID to keep your machine secure?

As the tech / net / system manager, they're YOUR systems. IF they're not secure, that's YOUR failing.

I sincerely hope that I'm missing something, otherwise you just don't get what the job is and it's good you left.

And something of value was gained?

[AliasMarlowe]

Bots and other malware that do no appreciable harm to their hosts have made users complacent about keeping their systems clean (or preferably secure). In the meantime, the collateral damage of spamfloods, spyware, and DDOS attacks has been inflicted on the whole community. An exemplary episode in which the infected machines actually suffer may wake users up again. Windows users are, as usual, the witless accomplices/culprits in this case, but Macs can be just as easily penetrated (demonstrated in the hackfests each year), and poorly administered Linux/BSD/Solaris systems can also be vulnerable.
Let the vendors of protective measures celebrate! Sales of anti-virus, anti-spyware, anti-rootkit, firewalls, and so forth may benefit. The publicity may even cause some security holes to be patched, and better practices to become default. Maybe the rest of us will benefit...

Re:And something of value was gained?

[L4t3r4lu5]

Are you saying we should bring bach CIH?

Re:And something of value was gained?

[xouumalperxe]

I fail to see how giving an old virus to a dead composer would help.

Re:And something of value was gained?

[L4t3r4lu5]

We can rebuild him - we have the technology.

Then we can nuke his BIOS! From orbit, preferably.

Re:Omg, think of the pr0n

[rdebath]

If the guy with the cancer cure isn't making backups his "cure" is gonna be just a careless.

How many time do we have to tell you, it isn't a backup until it's disconnected from the machine, it isn't a safe backup until it's with the neighbour ACROSS the street. (or at least in the car boot (trunk) on the street).

Re:To think

[noundi]

Security is not hard people...

Wait a second here. You can't have both. Either you dumb down the OS or you smarten people up. It's that simple. You want people to wipe their own asses? Then quit wiping it for them.

Re:Omg, think of the pr0n

[natd]

RAID isn't a backup / data protection measure so it's irrelevant. It contributes too high availably, nothing more.

Re:Omg, think of the pr0n

[DigiShaman]

If you have a disk-to-disk backup solution, most likely both sets of data will be hosed from this virus. Unless backups take place on tape, or the drives are rotated for off-site safety, the victim is fucked!

As much I'm happy to hear this virus self destruct, no one deserves irrecoverable data loss.

How well does a RAID stand up to that in terms of data protection? Or an attached USB HD?

The hardware abstraction doesn't matter if all the virus does is make read/write calls using the OS like any other application. In other words, if Windows has a volume mounted, then the virus will be able to see it and whack it out of commission.

marketing?

[euyis]

Maybe it's Tmax Window's marketing campaign.
That's the real "viral" marketing.

The supreme leader is dying

[SL Baur]

Plus, it launched on July 4th, not a particularly significant day for North Koreans...

I find it interesting that I just read a British article on how the health of Kim Jong Il is failing that included the comment:

There are no obvious signs are that Kim Jong Il is in anything less than complete control but close examination of recent internal developments leads many Pyongyang-watchers fear to the conclusion that he appears to be preparing for a transition of power and leaning towards military hardliners instead of the more reform-oriented advisers he favoured earlier.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6670248.ece

But really, what do they have to lose? The US and Europe have just announced that they will voluntarily kill what remains of their economies. If those "G8" clowns actually manage to carry out their plan, the future belongs to China and India. Actually, considering how much US debt China owns, the US future already belongs to China - bought and paid for.

Re:The supreme leader is dying

[David Gerard]

Kim Jong-nam, the eldest son of North Korean Dear Leader Kim Jong-il, has confirmed reports of his younger brother Kim Jong-un succeeding his father, in an interview with Japanese NTV.

"The appointment of a successor is totally my father's decision. Jong-un is certainly the man for the job. Chip off the old block, he is. Who wouldn't want to inherit somewhere in as good shape as North Korea? Fantastic past, fantastic present, fantastic future. Who wouldn't choose military parades and announcing a 30% increase in mud pie production over drinking, whoring and gambling? I'm sure there'll be no war crimes trials for the lucky fellow in the hot seat when the hollow shell collapses. Because it won't, of course. And isn't hollow. We just feel the rest of the world isn't ready to share the bountiful socialist wealth flowing from our policy of Juche. Of course!"

Kim Jong-nam denied reports he had defected or was living in exile. "Macau and China are just great places. Not as great as North Korea, of course! No, no. I just like it here."

There has been much speculation over who would follow Mr Kim, who is thought to have suffered a stroke last year. North Korean officials were reportedly told to support Kim Jong-un after the North's 25 May nuclear test. "Certainly I haven't heard of any purges or midnight executions of perceived supporters of mine. Because I'm not seeking any. Or the job. No, no, Jong-un's your fellow. Fabulous bloke. 'Scuse me, just got to look up departure times for planes to Xinjiang, or perhaps deepest Siberia. Lovely to catch you, must do lunch, love ya babe!"

Brainwashing is in the eye of the beholder

[SL Baur]

I would even say they are still obsessed and paranoid about the U.S attacking any minute. There are a lot of mentally unstable and brainwashed people in North Korea.

You could say the same thing with s/U.S/terrorists/ and s/North Korea/US/. Brainwashing is in the eye of the beholder...

"We had to bomb that village in order to save it"

"This is NOT an invasion of Cambodia"

"The US is too big to be governed by a single office" (Oh and please reelect me anyway)

"Read my lips, no new taxes"

"I did not have sex with that woman, MS Lewinsky"

"Mission Accomplished!"

"If elected, I'll start withdrawing troops from Iraq in March"

It's truly amazing what sort of brainwashing some people will accept.

Re:Brainwashing is in the eye of the beholder

[EdIII]

Point taken. However, most people in the U.S think that their leaders are full of crap. Not much different than most parts of the world.

However, in North Korea, the average citizen has practically zero access to information from the outside.

So if brainwashing was say... at a 3/10 in the U.S, it's a 10/10 in North Korea. I mean, come on, your hands rotting off by picking up a piece of paper? It's not like the levels of bullshit are equal in the scope of the lies they represent or their damage.

I did not bring up the point to say America is "number one" and that our crap does not stink, just wanted to point out that with all the brainwashing going on in North Korea it is fact that the average North Korean hates and fears us. To say that July 4th is not a significant day in their lives is just incorrect. That's all I was sayin'.

Re:Brainwashing is in the eye of the beholder

[soren202]

Who believes that shit, though?

I mean, seriously, "Mission Accomplished!" is still a huge joke with some of my friends to this day. Throw it in during an unrelated conversation, I know at least one or two people that will snicker.

It only counts as brainwashing if it..... you know.... brainwashes.

Re:Brainwashing is in the eye of the beholder

[SL Baur]

Who believes that shit, though?

Quite a lot of people, from my experience.

"Mission Accomplished!" was a copout and the weakest of the quotes, I admit. However, Neocon websites ate that stuff up and President Bush ran on a platform that was exactly opposite to what he ended up doing and there are no doubt juicy 1999/2000 campaign quotes to found, except that about all I could find was junk links about how Obama was just like predecessor.

Both Republicans and Democrats have proven that they can be equally scum-sucking pig dogs when voted into office. So hey, mark it down as Steve's attempt at being bipartisan.

My suspicion is that Kim Jung Il cares about his people more than any recent US President since Reagan and Kennedy. President Reagan had bad advisors (Neocons) who led him sstray. Kennedy made the mistake of not being the total mindless skirt chaser that Clinton is and instead tried to bring back real money and abolish the Federal Reserve. Or maybe Clinton just decided that chasing skirts was a better idea than getting his brains blown out.

We still have a two party system in the US, unfortunately it is the Neocons -vs- Goldman Sachs & Wall Street and neither have anyone's best interests in mind other than their own.

Re:Brainwashing is in the eye of the beholder

[mforbes]

Or maybe Clinton just decided that chasing skirts was a better idea than getting his brains blown out.

Clinton got something else blown out instead.

Re:Brainwashing is in the eye of the beholder

[mystik]

What if we had enemies dropping pamphlets on us?

What if our government told us they were infected by Ebola, or anthrax, or some other bioterrist agent and shouldn't be touched? (Whether or not they are)

Having your hands rot off doesn't seem to far fetched now ...

Smart folks might be able to figure out & confirm the government is full of crap. But lots of the folks out there, who can't even explain the scientific method? They might be inclined to believe them. Why would the government lie to them?

Re:Brainwashing is in the eye of the beholder

[Jhon]

What if our government told us they were infected by Ebola, or anthrax, or some other bioterrist agent and shouldn't be touched? (Whether or not they are)

Wouldn't work with a free press. However, no such press exists in north korea.

Re:Brainwashing is in the eye of the beholder

[EmperorKagato]

"If elected, I'll start withdrawing troops from Iraq in March"

The troops are withdrawing from Iraq.

Re:Brainwashing is in the eye of the beholder

[Eli Gottlieb]

Crawl back to Reddit, ya Zeitgeist-nik.

Re:Brainwashing is in the eye of the beholder

[cstdenis]

Bush got to be president.....twice.

It's got to be > 5/10 in the US.

Re:Brainwashing is in the eye of the beholder

[kelnos]

My suspicion is that Kim Jung Il cares about his people

My suspicion is that Kim Jong-il cares about living the high life, in luxury, while a large number of his people live in squalor and die of hunger.

But sure, ignore the reports of torture in concentration camps. It's just my opinion.

Re:Brainwashing is in the eye of the beholder

[Mr2001]

Wouldn't work with a free press.

Take another look at our free press... it has an abysmal track record at correcting misinformation, because no one in the news industry wants to appear "biased" or act as a "filter", even if it's just filtering fact from bullshit.

The best we'd get is something like:

Some scientists and doctors have expressed skepticism that the pamphlets contain any biological agents. According to John Smith of the Mayo Institute, "We tested two of the samples and found no traces of any spores or bacteria. Paper is a poor breeding ground for Ebola anyway."

But officials are still urging caution. "Our enemies will stop at nothing," said Bill Jones, Director of Homeland Security. "One or two negative test results doesn't mean anything. If your hands rot off, that's a pretty strong positive, don't you think? The safest thing to do is just not to touch these pamphlets. Or read them. Or think about what they might say."

Starcraft

[GF678]

The lack of any computers in South Korea still left alive to run Starcraft will cause a country-wide panic. There will be riots on the streets! Blood will run free, mark my words...

Re:Starcraft

[hellfish006]

a trojan zerg rush?

Hi, I'm a Mac

[chfriley]

Hi, I'm a Mac, and uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu...we're a PC.

Re:Hi, I'm a Mac

[chfriley]

"were" not "we're" -- too early.

Come and see the insecurity inherent in the system

[hattig]

I can just see a Windows user getting ineffectually angry when they lose all their data: "Come and see the insecurity inherent in the system!"

Sad for the users that lose precious data, I doubt they backed up if they can't be bothered to do the bare minimum of free AV and free anti-spyware. Still, they get a weekend to back up now, assuming that they're informed in time.

After that there will be a load of restored from install CD Windows XP machines ready to be taken over again.

Re:Omg, think of the pr0n

[donaldm]

If you have a disk-to-disk backup solution, most likely both sets of data will be hosed from this virus. Unless backups take place on tape, or the drives are rotated for off-site safety, the victim is fucked!

Any backup being it tape, disk or CD/DVD/BD/HVD or any backup media will still backup mall-ware and if you recover you are still going to get that mall-ware back. The only way you can recover from mall-ware is to have backed up data that does not have it on and that can be difficult once the target machine has been infected because normally you won't know when you got infected.

For many infected PC's or any computer for that matter the best recovery is one you know that does not contain any mall-ware or if unsure actually do a fresh build. For MS machines that may be the initial (one time) backup if this was originally done. Of course your data would most likely be compromised or even deleted and a bare metal recovery will just get back the base OS not the data. Even if you use Virtualisation you should have a pristine snapshot but you may only be able to get back compromised user data.

Regular backups are really required for the OS and the user's data however once an MS machine is compromised the users are in trouble especially if the person who downloaded the mall-ware is working with Admin privileges which unfortunately most MS Windows users do.

As far as RAID or even SAN go you are dead right, once storage devices are seen by the mall-ware they can be easily compromised providing the mall-ware has the necessary privileges. This is not to say Linux/Unix systems can't be comprised, they can but most (hopefully) users on *nix systems (OSF-X is Unix) don't work with Admin privileges and therefore any damage that could be inflicted by mall-ware is dramatically reduced. Actually another thing that does reduce the possibility of mall-ware attacks on *nix machines is the fact that it is very hard for mall-ware to hide itself against a determined System Admin.

Re:Omg, think of the pr0n

[Rich0]

RAID is a partially-effective data protection measure - it does protect against certain scenarios for data loss (namely loss of a physical device). Your data is generally safer on a RAID than not (although it does introduce a new point of failure - the RAID software/hardware itself). However, I do agree with what you're getting at - it certainly shouldn't be used as the sole method of protecting important data.

Not having read the source to the worm I can't be sure, but I suspect that if the worm writes out a string of u's to ever sector on the systems "hard drive" the RAID controller will dutifully replicate that data across all the redundant drives wiping out all traces of the original data. RAID is useless for protecting against logical data loss.

The only true backup solution involving RAID would be having a rotating stack of raid-1 mirror devices that are rebuilt and then taken offline. That really is just a fancy way of doing a physical-level drive mirroring operation. It isn't necessarily a bad approach either since it solves the problem of how to replicate the system without taking it down. On the other hand, it isn't guaranteed to be corruption-free unless at the end of the backup operation something is done to force all open applications to clean themselves up (disk-wise) right before the mirror is severed. In reality there are other approaches that work better.

Re:Omg, think of the pr0n

[dissy]

Seriously. It overrides every attached HD. How well does a RAID stand up to that in terms of data protection?

Well, all of the HDs in the RAID are still hardware functional, so the RAID is working 100%, and done its job.
No problems there what so ever!

This is why RAID != Backup

parent has the right idea

[howlingmadhowie]

one thing about everybody having what would have been the total computing power of the planet 20 years ago on their desks is that any single person could perpetrate this. either that, or it's another sony rootkit gone wrong ...

DVD players and game consoles

[tepples]

Movie-playing appliance

That's called a DVD player. There are also game-playing appliances, but these are typically locked down so tight that works developed by students, hobbyists, and small businesses can't get in through the normal channels.

Friday? Friday!

[hoggoth]

> Posted by timothy on Fri 10 Jul 01:41AM
> hard drives wiped of data come Friday.

NOW you tell me?!

Re:Friday? Friday!

[selven]

It probably won't happen until midnigmemory of the independence dayUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Re:I thought there was too much money to be made?

[pwilli]

Maybe it's some kind of dead man's switch. The guy who released that worm may be in prison/dead and therefore never had time to replace the destructive payload that is going to be downloaded with some more "constructive" code (e.g. newer version of the worm with new targets).

The folks affected with dead disks . . .

[PolygamousRanchKid]

. . . are not going to be able to post about it happening, are they?

But Windows can play games....

[yossarianuk]

If peoples machines are wiped It will sort of serve them right - people claim they won't run Linux because 'its not shiny enough' and that they can play games in Windows. Well they can still play the 'todays letter is U game'.

Re:But Windows can play games....

[HikingStick]

The ones most likely to get wiped (or any viruses or malware) are those in the general population who don't understand--or care to understand--a thing about computers beyond power on, programs, Internet, E-mail, and shut down. Those people won't make any claims about Linux, because some of them will be oblivious to the fact that it even exists and others only know Windows "because that's what came on my computer."

In close second might be families with kids/teens. I'm a techie and have taken great care to safeguard my home network. Until one month ago, I hadn't had a single bit of malware that got enough access to start spreading itself to other machines. As best I can tell, someone in the house either visited a compromised site or clicked a link to activate a trojan. Afterwards, I sat everyone down for Security 101 again!

Bluffing...?

[hesaigo999ca]

This might be just a ploy to bluff the owners or writers of the doomsday botnet, to try and reconfigure their servers,
and give the people setting up this ploy the ability to rescan the systems they think might be the ping servers, to then compare with
the original images they have, and be able to not only confirm which are the payload servers, but also how they might get modified...sort of a bluff technique if you will to indirectly confirm what you might be thinking.

Re:Bluffing...?

[WuphonsReach]

The bigger possibility is that this module is just one of many included in the download. Which does not imply that this is the module that will fire off on a particular day.

And you get better headlines with "OMG End of the Internet" then "Oh, they downloaded a new update today".

Good riddance

[Ilgaz]

There should be something like "drivers license" when you are connected to Internet with such speed. People having 2 megabyte/sec lines doesn't install at least a free antivirus, they disable the OS firewall (even when it is free) to run some junk which doesn't use the firewall API of Windows are the ones who really deserves their HD to get wiped.

Man they don't even run Windows Update. It is 1 click! It backs up too. Don't start with how evil MS updates has been, if you are that bugged, please get rid of Windows itself.

I am frustrated as a guy who had to setup a mail filter on Yahoo Mail to get rid of Korean spam. Yes, I have setup to detect Korean charsets, the "!!!" in subject which Korean spammers seems to love.

Things like
"If...
      Body contains "charset="ISO-2022-KR""
Then...
      Move message to Trash folder"

Seriously, this must stop. Being highest bandwidth country really gives them some responsibilities. Just like German Autobahn. Yes, there is no speed limit but their license exams are close to torture.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

We are trying to get to a stage where people can use computers without having to know about charsets, antivirus, backup, updates and firewalls or have a 'driving' license just to look at some porn. In my experience firewalls and virus scanners do nothing but slow down a Windows PC and provide another deluge of popups that nobody can understand.

Windows seems to be going in the opposite direction. Is this just to keep the money slushing around in the 'fixing Windows' industry?

Good riddance to computers that require $200 worth of repair for just 'clicking the wrong link'... Whatever that means.

If you want a car analogy then cars today are being supplied with 1000 buttons on the dash, one starts the car, and another stops the car. Pressing the wrong one will cause your car to stop functioning for you, but it will happily put viagra advertisements on it's radio and drive around town all day annoying people.

At least Google seem to have the right idea with Native Client. I would add a link but how would you know if it was a 'wrong link'?

Remember kids, manually type in those URLs!

Re:Come and see the insecurity inherent in the sys

[m.ducharme]

I doubt they backed up if they can't be bothered to do the bare minimum of free AV and free anti-spyware.

A backup doesn't help if the infected files have made their way into the backup. That's why you turn off System Restore on a Windows box if you're trying to clean off a virus or worm; 9 times out of 10, the worm has hidden copies of itself in your backups. But you knew that, didn't you? Didn't you?

The end of IE6?

[noahisaac]

Hmm... maybe this is all a secret plot by frustrated web developers trying to rid the world of IE6.

In which case: Go Mydoom!

Only 50,000 machines

[Twillerror]

It's not a small amount, but considering there are 100s millions of machines around the world it is a pretty small amount.

How many machines out there have a HD failure everyday? I'm guessing it is less than 50,000, but probably not much lower. Google and wiki searching only gave me numbers like 3% annualized failure rate up to 13%.

Once the system is rebooted what kind of error message will they see? OS not Found from the bios? I wonder how many users will simply think their harddrive failed.

Re:Only 50,000 machines

[clone53421]

Used to be the "Operating system not found" error message, but nowadays the BIOS is probably going to first attempt to network boot, which will take a little while, and failing that it will say something about a boot device not found.

I feel a strange disturbance in the force...

[jbn7343]

its as if millions of insecure computers suddenly cried out and then fell silent.

MOD PARENT UP [Re:Apple viral marketing campaign]

[IGnatius T Foobar]

Thanks for writing that. Not that you're going to be able to penetrate the leftist-atheist Slashdot groupthink using actual facts, but thanks for posting it anyway. It's amazing how many people think that Catholicism == all of Christianity. Weird add-ons like transubstantiation are the reason I became a Protestant, actually.

how are those statements brainwashing?

[circletimessquare]

those are outright lies by politicians. disconnected and ridiculous

in north korea you are talking about a concerted effort since birth to convince your citizens the world outside your borders are full of bloodthirsty tribes ready to destroy you at a moment's notice

not that there doesn't exist people who believe that in the west, but there isn't a concerted effort by the government to create that belief

comparing real brainwashing in north korea with the worst example of demagoguery that you could find in the west: not even remotely in the same league

Not quite how I intended it...

[zooblethorpe]

Hey there Psychotria --

Up again now that it's morning here, and I find myself saying, "Oh, dear..." There was no delight in my initial posting, nor any self-satisfied "they're getting what they deserve". My thinking was much more along EdIII's lines. And, FWIW, at least some of my "clue bat" commentary was from personal experience. :S A good part of why I use Windows (and other MS software) as little as possible anymore has to do with being burned, repeatedly. I consider myself lucky that Windows screwed me over back in 2000-01 without the aid of online nasties, prompting me to do the hard work of learning proper setup, configuration, and ultimately a whole different system, well before the current clusterbleep of DIY botnet-for-hire madness arose.

So no, I wasn't intending any derision. Grim sympathy instead, and silver-lining thanks that at least the botnet will cease to exist, quite likely taking other malware offline in the process.

NB: You might want to work on how you perceive tone in writing. None of what you react to was intended, and while I now see how you might be able to read my post that way, it's also important to note that my post could be read multiple other ways as well. Before getting all fired up and throwing around angry language, it could be a good thing to double-check a poster's intent.

Cheers,

SELinux

[zooblethorpe]

What would be nice if if it were easier for users to create capability lists so that they could make use of technologies like SElinux or Apparmor which are band-aids applied to specific programs instead of as a whitelist as they probably should be.

I wondered about that. SELinux sounds like a great idea, so I took Fedora for a spin for a while to see what I could learn about it.

I learned that the documentation was cryptic at best and imprenetrable at worst, and that configuration was beyond me. So while the *idea* is fabulous, the execution rendered SELinux unusable to me.

I'm a translator, I don't have truckloads of free time to blow reading poorly written docs. (I acknowledge that there might be great docs out there, but I sure didn't find them.) Until such time as SELinux is either a requirement or the docs are rewritten (and possibly the config tools as well), I find that a proper firewall, log checking, and clueful browsing are doing me just fine. Oh, well.

Cheers,

Re:SELinux

[WuphonsReach]

SELinux makes a lot of sense at the server level, where you have change control and aren't running random applications without some sort of plan. The default on a server can easily be "deny, unless allowed".

On the desktop? Not so much, although it can serve as a useful way to reinforce browser sandboxing. On a desktop, the goal should more be "we know this application is risky, so let's lock it down".

Re:SELinux

[zooblethorpe]

Hmm, I find myself thinking that SELinux on a desktop could *potentially* be very useful indeed, helping security newbs with risky browsing habits, particularly if managed at the distro level -- say, where the distro puts together sane and safe capability lists for each distro package, similar to what theCoder described above:

It would be nice if it was easier for a general user to create sub accounts (or something similar) for the photo editor, web browser, mail reader, etc. This way, the photo editor could write to the photos, but the web browser, which might be compromised, could not.

Any unknown package not coming from the distro's own repos would thus not have any distro-specific (probably signed?) capability list included, and the default would be locked down tight, perhaps with r/w (but not exec?) perms on one specific directory. Hmm...

Cheers,

Re:Omg, think of the pr0n

[grenthar]

There are backups and then there are Backups. It's not a real Backup unless it's off-site. Buildings. Sometimes they burn down.

Re:geek version of spy vs spy

[religious freak]

HAHA - sorry, looks like the mods didn't get the humor

Re:MOD PARENT UP [Re:Apple viral marketing campaig

[Degro]

It's still all complete bullshit, with or without the 'wierd add-ons'.

did you perhaps intend to use the word "brake"?

[Chirs]

The thing on a car that slows you down is a "brake".

Congratulations!

[aaaantoine]

You win the Internet.

Re:Omg, think of the pr0n

[cOldhandle]

I don't think much damage will be caused by "overriding" hard disks, let's just hope it doesn't overwrite anything.

Re:virtualization

[anonymousbob22]

since all south korean online banking is done with windows computers, friday will seriously suck.

That's what VMware, Parallels, and Virtual Box are for. Just roll back to a snapshot that isn't infected.

You could probably accomplish the same thing with Deep Freeze (or a similar) product if all you have is straight Windows.

(Of course these are simply workarounds, and not treating the actual root cause of the issue.)

And then everyone can go on a spending spree, because once the virus hits their debts will all get rolled back anyway!

Re:If you are stupid enough to run MS ...

[HW_Hack]

Ha ! My first ever Troll rating ... I spit on your ratings (except those of Funny). Pwah! Pwah! Like that I spit on them. For MS - OS does stand for Oh Shit.

Viva-la OS X
Viva-la Linux

Currently I spit on Google Chrome OS - but hey you never know.

Re:MOD PARENT UP [Re:Apple viral marketing campaig

[maeka]

How can you defend free-will without believing in God?
Either causality exists and your brain is a machine with a determined output to its inputs - or you have a magical soul which can move matter.

Just a curious atheist here...

Re:MOD PARENT UP [Re:Apple viral marketing campaig

[Tacvek]

What about a magical soul that can move matter implies God?

For that matter, several common interpretations of quantum mechanics indicate that the world is not strictly causal. Yet few people claim quantum mechanics implies the existence of a magical soul.

In other words you have a false dichotomy there.

Re:MOD PARENT UP [Re:Apple viral marketing campaig

[maeka]

Ahh, but quantum mechanics inserts a belief in randomness, not a strict break in causality.

Re:MOD PARENT UP [Re:Apple viral marketing campaig

[Doctor O]

How can you defend free-will without believing in God?

No problem. Many Worlds Interpretation. Just consider that, and Schrödinger's cat.

That reminds me.

Schrödinger and Heisenberg are driving around when they run over a cat. Asks Schrödinger: "Is it dead?" - "I can't be certain", responds Heisenberg.