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Amazon US Refunds Windows License Fee, Too
rrohbeck writes "Today Amazon credited my card with $65.45. After ordering an Eee PC 1005 HA from amazon.com, I asked them for a refund for the cost of Windows XP via the 'Contact us' form. At first they told me to cancel any items on my order that I wanted a refund for, but after I explained that XP was pre-installed on the machine they got it. They asked what the cost of the OS was, and I answered that I had no idea but that Amazon UK refunded £40.00. Within a few hours I got a response saying 'I've requested a refund of $65.45 to your Visa card.' Somehow I doubt that Amazon will charge Asus or even Microsoft, but maybe they will one day if more people do this. Oh, and peeling off the 'Designed for Microsoft Windows XP' sticker is easy, too."
Or it didn't happen.
---- Liquid was a patriot ----
The news about the death of customer service are greatly exaggerated.
They may require you to send it back along with any manuals or repair disks.
bomb the us up set someone
With the cost of netbooks dropping Microsoft will soon have to refund us more money then the netbook costs.
they will just raise the price for everyone else.
Instead of a ~$65 refund, I bet you could peel the sticker off and sell the COA to someone for $100. MS may not like it, but it'll activate on another computer and won't ever fail WGA. You end up with an extra $35 in your pocket, and your friend will have slightly cheaper oem COA. This is especially handy because one cannot buy XP retail anymore.
They sure as hell won't be refunding $65 to everyone, when the OEM probably only paid $15 dollars for it or less.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
But the real question is, can you call 'em up today and order a XP license for the same $65?
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
Now you can install your pirate Corporate Pro version.
I did the same with Dell last year when I ordered my XPS M1330. It came with Vista + MS Works (at the time they had no pretend Linux alternative - with lower specs and same price as a Vista laptop).
I wrote to Dell for a refund and enclosed a printed out screenshot (via digital camera) of me ticking the "I reject license" on Vista bootup and another screenshot of Kubuntu running on the laptop.
A month later I was refunded £120 + vat for both Vista and Works. Not bad considering the laptop cost £520 - minus M$ Tax = £400.
Personally it would be funnier to leave the 'Designed for Windows XP' sticker alone and place a 'But running a real OS instead' sticker next to it.
Thinkgeek.com should start selling some of those (in the small metallic glossy format typical of such things).
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
it's no skin off your ass to keep the OS.
It may be no skin, but it is apparently $65.
He did what is right for him. As others have pointed out more generically, why should he subsidize your Windows use?
Did he tell you to refuse the MS license and to reclaim your fee? I didn't see it.
I could not quite understand what you are trying to say. If your point is that rrohbeck should have sucked it up and not asked for a refund, then, sorry, it is you who is the moron. Why should someone pay for something they do not want if there is an option to get their money back?
To give you the obligatory car analogy: Imagine $carmanifacturer bundles a TomTom nav with any car sale by default. You do not want the TomTom, either because you already have one or because you can get a different nav somewhere else for a better price. Would you suck it up and pay for the TomTom that you have no use for, or would you try to negotiate with the sales rep?
Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
First off, if 10 people do this, Amazon is going to find out what it really costs, and it isn't $65 or anything close to that.
Secondly, they are't going to do this without some kind of verification. It sounds like someone asked for money and they gave it to them. Great customer service but hardly something they can operate a business on. So unless there is a verifiable way to determine that XP has been irrevocably uninstalled I don't see this happening too much more.
What's interesting is I recently picked up a Dell mini (10v) with Ubuntu pre-installed, and the price was the exact same as the one that came with XP pre-installed. In retrospect I probably should have just gotten the XP version, in case I ever need XP, since I put a fresh copy of Ubuntu on it anyway, that doesn't have all the Dell bundled nonsense.
but it'll activate on another computer and won't ever fail WGA.
Maybe, maybe not. It could be a manufacturer specific key.
Eee 1005HA for 220 euros? That's a bargain!
When everyone is complaining that they had to spend 48 hours installing software on their laptop because their new, shiny laptop does not come with an operating system because people are demanding the $65 discount for the XP license they didn't want (which they will probably use anyway).
Yeah, that'll be pretty funny.
Or do you get the refund and the option to continue to use the OS? Surely Amazon isn't tied all the way back through ASUS to Microsoft's licensing servers.
Charging a customer because they have an OS installed on a computer / notebook is completely wrong. Lately I've been trying to pick up a notebook for school and I've been getting a run around. I've called Dell, Asus and shopped at the all the major Ontario computers stores, all of them come back with the same answer, you need to buy an OS with the notebook. It doesn't matter if I don't want Windows because I don't get a choice, personally I think forcing a customer to buy an OS is horrible idea.
As a Linux user I don't understand why I'd pay someone to hit next 4 times and partitioning a drive which a 5 year old could do. Even when I talked to Dell they only offered to install the "Big" Linux names.
If I'm going to buy a notebook then I want to make sure it comes unbundled and with a clean HDD so I can put what I need onto it. The problem is I can't seem to get any one to send me a blank notebook that I can install a proper OS to, if I spend the 100 dollar software package bundle then I'll wipe the notebook when I get it wasting the 100 dollars, but when I tell the computer store / company I'm going to wipe it so don't sell me the bundle they tell me they can't.
Does anyone else have this problem?
Why is that the question? They give OEM's a discount, to prevent them from thinking along the lines of - hey, no bulk discount for an easily copied software so I'll just under-report how many I'm selling.
The answer is No, they won't sell it to an individual for that cost. And as long as people see it as better than the previous offering (which is almost guaranteed, until they make a rock-solid OS to begin with), the next version will always cost more than (previous version + adjustment for inflation).
The real question should be - what if Windows 7 is as good as they claim, and no one ever has a reason to upgrade it?
It will not activate.
For quite some time now, all major OEMs have been printing "dummy keys" to the COAs. The official method of recovery (a recovery CD or a recovery partition) never asks for the key as the OS is pre-activated. This official recovery method obviously won't install to anything other than the hardware it was shipped with. Usually it is tied to a specific custom BIOS. If you try to install a standard OEM disc with the key found on the COA, you'll find that the installer won't reject it outright (it will allow you to complete the installation) but when you try to activate, it will instruct you to contact Microsoft by phone.
I haven't had experiences with laptops but in cases of desktops you can get MS to issue you a new working key by stating that the PC was repaired and this required a motherboard replacement (hence, you had to use a replacement media and this issue came up). For laptops, not sure what would make MS give you a new key - the license is tied to the piece of hardware it was sold with. You are most likely out of luck and have to contact the manufacturer of the hardware. You could try to bluff the droid on the phone by stating the same thing (motherboard was replaced due to fault) and assume that the key doesn't tell if it was bundled with a laptop.
Before MS and OEMs started doing this, people just wrote down keys off publicly accessible computers and used those to activate standard OEM disc installations. I never quite got the original idea why it was smart to print the valuable product key on a sticker where anyone could snap a picture or write it down, but this was MS we're talking about...
...at least according to this article. The author makes a convincing argument that MS took a bath with that price in order to keep Linux from gaining a toe-hold in the netbook/notebook market, and also credits the threat of Linux Netbook Popularity with the extension of XP to 2010 and modifications of specs on Windows 7. A good read.
Amazon is just the retailer, but as long as the OEM is still cashing in from the license sale, it's no real progress. It doesn't make a difference if the retailer is giving you the refund, the money is still going to the OEM and as a result, Microsoft. And as long as this happens, they'll still enter corrupt bargaining deals and shut out Linux from mainstream offerings. We need OEMs to give the refund, not the retailer.
So maybe eventually, Amazon will ask the OEMs for a refund for the license. What will the OEMs say? Probably no. Then what will happen? Amazon will probably start refusing the refund as well too. Back at square one, going back to buy my computers from system76, itwasfunwhileitlasted, etc.
In any case, if I were Microsoft, I'd change the wording of the EULA to something like "By purchasing this computer, you consent to pay for all software preinstalled, whatever" to bar these refunds. I don't think it's unenforceable.
I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
You can still buy XP from Newegg. XP Home and XP Professional are there as well as Media Center Edition.
"Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1 (NKJV)
These stores will start to get the message when they find that enough people are willing to waste their time as they try to waste our time. Their vulnerability is they pay their staff usually by the hour and they pay rent.
We need to just keep refusing to pay for what we don't want in their bundles. The more time we waste the more the message gets through. Short answer: We don't want your garbage. Where do I recycle?
It's good to get the refund, but IMO FOSS types should boycott ASUS. I own an EEE-701, which was the original category-killer. Linux propelled netbooks to fame, and then ASUS weasled out with their "itsbetterwithwindows" campaign.
There are plenty of companies willing to sell netbooks with Linux pre-loaded (Acer makes a very nice model) and we should patronize them.
Get a job hippi
Try to do the same with a Mac computer... lol
Except you can remove the TomTom from the car and sell it aftermarket. The last time I checked an OEM EULA wording (admittedly some time ago) the license was tied to the hardware, so you could not transfer it separately from the hardware.
Cheers!
thanks jhole
Since when can you buy an item with manufacture specs and then refund part of the item for cash? Nobody made the mistake you ordered knowing it was one there. What the hell? Can i order the laptop and mail back just the hard drive because i own one already? Amazon is retarded for letting you get away with this, and your an ass for even asking in the first place
These are my main online retailers.
Amazon has corrected issues fairly cheerfully 3 times over the years.They've asked me to verify a few things and taken a few days, but in the end, there was never any hint that they didn't believe my story. Or perhaps, since I was telling the truth, it was easy to verify on their side?
I'm not a huge customer, but have probably spent $5000 over the years on both of these sites.
Most of my family now uses Amazon (newegg is a little too techie for them). My huge family and even larger extended family keep "wish lists" on amazon, so presents are easy to give to each other with the correct sizes/color/brand.
I don't think software and hardware should be sold in bundles as the norm. If bundling an browser with an OS is considered 'bad' why isn't bundling an OS with a computer, which is, IMO, much worse. Forcing the user into a web browser is not as bad as forcing the user into an operating system. For a start, the browser is often free, whereas in the OS case, the user is paying for something they may not want. Maybe they need to ship systems with no OS, with a leaflet showing the various options available, and possibly a selection of free OS disks, such as various linux distros, bsd, freedos etc... I suppose retailers could do bundle offers if they like, for example, some custom PC builders will sell with no OS, or the OS of your choice from a selection. If your choice isn't there you can order the OS-less machine and purchase/download the OS elsewhere.
An intriguing solution to a problem that should never have existed in the first place...
"Oh, and peeling off the 'Designed for Microsoft Windows XP' sticker is easy, too." Not to mention VERY satisfying. ;)
As well as XP X64, which is quite nice and lets me use the 5Gb of RAM(4 for the CPU, 1 for the GPU) that I have. Despite the horror stories I heard everywhere thanks to WOW64 it has run every program I have thrown at it, even my 90s games.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
from http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/07/30/taxing-times-for-free-choice/:
isn't it remarkable that they started getting these requests when they did the XP eeePC! What an uncanny co-incidence.
Geez, instead of running around, let your fingers do the walking and use Google to find a notebook with Linux pre-install or God forbid, no OS. It really isn't hard to get.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Not that I don't appreciate that Amazon will let customers sell them back the Microsoft Windows software, but I'm sort of wondering why. (Here comes the car analogy.) If I buy a Subaru WRX with a normal shifter but plan on putting in a short-throw shifter after-market, Subaru isn't going to buy back my normal shifter. They sell me what they have on the lot. In terms of Amazon, I'm buying what they're offering: a laptop running Windows. If I want a laptop running a different OS, I'd buy it somewhere else. If there are no vendors selling that laptop without Windows, then I eat the cost, or try to recoup my costs by reselling the license (which I don't think is transferable but in this case one could probably make an exception).
Manual activations work fine over the phone in this situation. I've done hundreds of them. You used to have to speak to an MS rep sometimes but in the last 12 months I don't think I've had to. All done through the automated system.
Sure, it has its issues and it may be a bit expensive, but that's not a very nice way to describe Windows XP.
Yeah - but not only does MS "not like it" ... They actively spend money on lawyers to harass and threaten anyone they catch attempting to do it (despite "right of first sale" law seeming to be on the side of the consumer on this one).
I tried selling unopened OEM copies of Windows 2000 Professional, years back, with original COA certificates still shrink-wrapped with the media - and the Microsoft legal team got my eBay auctions canceled promptly, and sent me legal threats in email.
Another attempt on Craigslist to do the same with XP got my listings flagged in short order, too.
If you have a personal friend you can make the deal with in person, great... but just saying, it's not always easy to advertise such an offer to others.
Also, aren't some of the CD keys linked to copies of XP designed only for a particular brand of computer? I thought with OEM editions, they created custom XP installation discs for major players like Dell, Toshiba and HP - so a given COA sticker on the side of one of those boxes would only work with a restore/recovery disc made for that manufacturer's systems (uses their BIOS to verify what you're trying to load it on)?
Could be I'm completely off the mark here - if so, I hope that someone straightens me out without using the word moron more than fifteen times in the reply. When you order a computer without any operating system at all, you're really asking for an addition step during the assembly, not fewer steps, right? What I mean is, the computer is assembled, and then an operating system is installed, and some type of software is run on the machine to test the hardware, maybe perform a burn in period, that kind of thing. If you then want a computer sans OS, they have to wipe the drive - admittedly not an onerous task, but an additional task nonetheless - in which case an OS-less computer would cost more maybe, or at least the difference between the cost of the OS and the cost of the labor to uninstall it? Or would they simply ship you an assembled, untested unit? Or do they not test assembled computers at all anymore?
Jealously hoarding mod points since 2007.
Come on now, this is Slashdot.... where posts about "I haven't paid for Windows ever even tho it's on 12 of my b0xen" normally gets modded up.
I discovered that those colurful "Designed for Windows" stickers look positively marvelous on the white porcelain just above the flush lever on my toilet.
Don't take life too seriously; it isn't permanent.
thing, this microsoft windows push. it now comes on virtually all computers regardless of whether you want it, with paths offered only to upgrade the windows to a more premium version (not remove the bloody thing.) Special deals on windows are offered at retailers like newegg if you're building a computer, in fact the os is even pushed as a purchasing option before you finish adding products to your cart. its bundled with some motherboards you buy as well. windows now comes standard on virtually any EEEPc you try to purchase too. that never used to happen.
how much longer until you DONT get to choose windows but have to blindly accept it in everyday life? I support amazon and other retailers who honor my EULA right to refuse an operating system i never wanted, yet in most cases is bundled inextricably with the hardware i do want..you know...the computer im buying from a computer company in most cases.
Good people go to bed earlier.
A number of people have pointed out that a few refunds for XP is not a sign that anything is changing. I believe these refunds only show that Amazon has not formed any kind of official policy for this situation. They are simply erring on the side of not pissing people off, because technical people are going to buy more computer products, either from Amazon or someone else who treats them better. I'm sure they are aware of the press.
Sometime soon, I think we will see a more permanent resolution to this customer service issue. I can't say whether it will be progress or not.
When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
But how does one remove or replace the crash key^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Windows logo key from the keyboard? This is a laptop so it isn't as easy as switching a keyboard.
It has always bothered me that keyboard hardware manufacturers brand their hardware with Microsoft's logo when a simple keyboard really should remain OS neutral. I'm sure they are getting paid by MS for this.
- posted using a nice old AT style keyboard from before the Windows key insanity began.
one cannot buy XP retail anymore
Note true. Not only are retail versions of XP SP2 still available, it's very trivial to find legal OEM licenses of Windows XP Pro SP3 available for purchase. I know, I recently bought two OEM licenses of Windows XP in Spanish; they were out of stock so I had to wait a couple of months until Microsoft printed up some more.
I've got a "Certified for Windows Vista" sticker on my bong
_-_-_GSLUG_-_-_
When I purchased my ASUS EEE 900, all I had to do was check the 'Linux' version and I got my laptop. (And the 20GB HD was nice compared to the 16GB HD on the Windows version.) Now, yes, I did the same thing I did with every other computer I own and wiped the installed OS (Xandros) and replaced it with Debian initially and EEEbuntu currently. But the point is that I didn't have to call anyone to get my money back. I didn't have to convince anyone of anything. I just had to check the "I'm not paying for Windows" button and I got my laptop for a Windows free price. Why can't the vendors just put that back please? Stop making the consumer's life difficult!
While I think it's pretty nice to get a refund, I am curious what people think of demanding refunds on other things?
For example, when buying a Mac, if I don't want OSX, do I have a right to demand a refund? What about crappy factory radios in cars? Engine chip? PS3 system software?
-or- you could just write down the model information next to the COA sticker... "ASUS Eee PC 1005HA-P". When the drone on the phone asks what you've got, tell them it's that... they can't tell the difference. You're installing from OEM media since you lost the original media. Their database gives them almost no info. They can't and won't say anything except "here's your activation code".
Can Apple be forced to refund the cost of OS X on a Mac in the EU like OEMs are?
This space for rent.
Not to troll, but how do you get the wi-fi toggle (fn+f2) to work? I installed the Ubuntu Netbook Remix, and it still doesn't work. This is why I have to keep using XP on mine. It just kills the battery life for no reason when I'm not near a wi-fi spot.
It has always puzzled me why others in this community do not think of installing Linux as an after market modification. I can give plenty of examples of devices that I have modified as soon as I opened them and I don't think I have ever asked for refunds on paint or artwork or bad quality parts. If you buy a cell phone and you put android on it no one expects Samsung to refund you for their OS. I can think remember friends calling Dell and Gateway in the 90s arguing they should get refunds for 98 because they would never use it. In my opinion these companies should just state that they give the OS to you as a gift for buying the system weather they have to pay for it or not its itemized out to zero.
You can argue all the principles you want. But if you order a Penutbutter and Jelly sandwitch and ask for the Jelly to be held you do not normally get a discount for the missing product. This is nothing more then a large company turning a very small population of people in to disciples of advertising. Amazon refunds the windows license...buy all you computers from them instead of the competition even if you don't get the refund.
Momento Mori
Just order 20,000 of them. Seriously, is the concept of paying less when you buy in bulk still unclear? Are people still under a delusion that sellers pay full retail price for an OS bundled with a comp?
Reminds me of my old Made With VI badge I used to put on web sites I created.
The CB App. What's your 20?
Yeah, just try it on eBay. Microsoft and eBay have an arrangement where their customers are completely forbidden from selling previously-used (or entirely unused) Windows licenses second-hand. All Microsoft has to do is flag an auction and eBay pulls it down with no human intervention and little in the way of explanation.
A few years back I bought a laptop with a Win2k license. I was putting Linux on the laptop, so I didn't need the license and tried to sell it on ebay. The auction was up for 6 days before eBay shut it down, claiming (in not so many words) that I was trying to hawk pirated software. Despite the fact that I explained the situation clearly in the auction, have been an eBay seller for years, and have a spotless feedback record. There is nothing in Microsoft's EULA, nothing in eBay's terms of service, nothing in the copyright laws that says I cannot sell a legitimate software license to someone else.
A few weeks later, Microsoft sent me a fuckload of identical cease-and-desist letters claiming (vaguely) that I was infringing on their copyright somehow. This was when I vowed never to purchase another piece of Microsoft software again, not even a computer with Windows pre-installed.
I'm pretty sure I pulled an XP license key off a factory laptop install and successfully used it to validate a desktop install. Ymmv.
Here's a possibility:
Given the speed with which pre-installed Linux disappeared on netbooks, it it possible that the COGS for Windows XP to the laptop manufacturer is now negative?
The marginal cost to Microsoft for XP is extremely low, since it's supposedly at EOL for OEMs anyway. And there's a direct benefit to Microsoft for any copies on netbooks which displace Linux, so I think the question is not how much the manufacturer pays Microsoft, but vice versa. If that's the sign of the payment, then netbook prices are (like smart phones) being subsidized, and that's why you can't get a Linux version or ask for a refund: it would cost more.
I'd rather have a computer that is designed to work securely.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
You are right of course in this aspect. I forgot, since over here in Europe those terms have largely been found to be unenforcible. OK, so the TomTom is fixed to the dashboard and cannot be removed without damaging the car. Point still stands, plus you still would have to get rid of the TomTom yourself AND recover the premium you paid on your car because of the bundling.
Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
> Instead of a ~$65 refund, I bet you could peel the sticker off and sell the COA to someone for $100.
Only if the supply of idiots in your area is a lot higher than most. Newegg will sell you an OEM WinXP SP3 with a working CD along with that sticker for $89.99. Last time we bought one (to run in Peachtree inside VMWare and be moral if not exactly EULA legal) we didn't even have to buy the traditional $.99 CD audio cable to qualify.
Democrat delenda est
Why should my book buying subsidize his non-Windows use? There's no evidence that Asus or Microsoft is paying for the refund--all indications are that Amazon is doing so.
I used a downloaded copy of windows xp home (turned into a usb key install) to reinstall xp onto my lenovo s10 (using the windows xp home key that came with the netbook), and it authenticated just fine.
So true... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Locked_Preinstallation The key is slipstreamed into the "recovery disk" media and locked to the BIOS inside the unit.
move along, nothing to see here.
I have an XP Pro SP2 OEM installer disc that came with an HP desktop years ago. It will pretty much install onto any computer and authenticate any serial number I copy from any other computer's XP Pro sticker.
Theoretically of course... If I upgrade to SP3 before authenticating, trouble ensues...
Ask Me About... The 80's!
by the relatively limited Open Source "alternatives" when we want the very best hardware on offer out there. :)
(sorry. couldn't find HP's alternatives.)
In case you all need a 100% way to get any version of your OS from Micro$oft activated... tell them you had to move it into a VM and now its rejecting it, they provide you will a new key always on the spot.Have personally done this many times.
Personally it would be funnier to leave the 'Designed for Windows XP' sticker alone and place a 'But running a real OS instead' sticker next to it.
"Designed for Windows... but runs better with Linux"
I am anarch of all I survey.
It actually may have dual impact:
1 - good PR for Amazon
2 - Amazon pressuring MS - no way they will take teh hit for multiple refund requests.
Let's see how this develops.
Insert
That's Vista's OEM preactivation. It's completely different from activation with the key provided on the COA.
Most machines ship with a key on the COA - which is unused, and instead the preinstalled image is preactivated using OEM SLP preactivation.
I used one of those myself :-)
In fact, I still mostly design HTML with VIM over WebDAV.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
I'm talking XP...Vista has a different key/activation model.
Some COAs are marked as "HP Only" or "Acer Only", but if you have a bone-stock copy of Windows XP (any service pack really, but it has to have the most recent license key dll file because MS recently "ran out" of key combinations with the old file) they will always work. It may have to be phone activated, but I've never had a problem (I've done quite a few). If all you have is the CD that came with a computer (such as a Sony laptop), it will likely be coded to that hardware, and installation on another computer is near impossible.
In short: A license key obtained from a COA will work with an original (as in from MS, not a computer manufacturer) media disc. MS's original bone-stock CD doesn't have any code in it to "check" the BIOS at all.
Wow...I haven't seen XP retail in ages! Thanks for the link. OEM is still around, which is fantastic in my book.
Unfortunately, we all can't swear off of MS products. I'm glad you were able to, though.