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Danish FreeBSD Dev. Sues Lenovo Over "Microsoft Tax"
Handbrewer writes "The FreeBSD developer Poul-Henning Kamp (phk) has sued Lenovo in Denmark (Google translation, original here) over their refusal to refund the Windows Vista Business license, even though he declined the EULA during installation. Lenovo argues that they sell the computer as a full product, and that they cannot refund it partially, such as the power supply or the OS even if people intend to use a different one. This seems to be contrary to previous rulings in the EU where Acer and HP has been forced to refund the 'Microsoft tax.'"
there is no such thing as a "freebsd developer". All those guys died YEARS ago.
In many cases, Lenovo has been playing hardball with the Windows tax refunds.
It is good to see them getting done with.
At least they are not as ridiculous as Toshiba that put a sticker on new computers where they disclaim any responsibility for Microsoft tax refunds!
http://nakedcomputers.org/
Better have a full refund and buy from someone else.
Case closed
It's even worse in the US, where microsoft's influence runs deep. How did we ever get in this situation? Any history buffs wanna recount?
I wish him well on the lawsuit, but I won't hold my breath...
While i applaud companies that refund the microsoft tax, i do sort of see where lenovo is coming from. If i buy a car, i can't yank out the back seats and require a refund from the car dealer. It is true i could sell those seats for a profit on ebay, the original dealer would not be required to refund me the cost of the seats. In fact, it could be assumed that you pay $2000 for the laptop hardware and they throw in windows for free.
/sarcasm
Should you be able to sue for not being able to arbitrarily get a refund on a part of a computer? What if you want to run thin clients that never touch the hard drive? Should you be able to refund the hard drive? Just because what you're trying to get rid of has no legal resale value doesn't mean you should be able to refund it, especially if Lenovo never included an itemized list.
You know what? I'm gonna sue the next laptop company i buy from because they won't refund the cost of the touch pad, I hate those things! More than most linux people hate microsoft, i'm talking like a seething, infuriating hatred.
What if you wrote software that included printer capabilities or SQL database access, would you refund someone who didn't want printer capabilities or SQL database access? Too bad lenovo isn't doing what sane people would do and try to work with the customer to come to something that works, but, if you don't like the back seats, either buy the whole care and remove em yourself, or don't buy the car.
Reason people! While microsoft's monopoly is bad, you shouldn't be sueing for a refund, sue for variety! And NO I didn't RTFA, so for all i know, the terms of the settlement may be "Sell blank slate laptops".
As an ardent FreeBSD user, I cheer PHK's move. In the EULA, Microsoft claims that denying the license is grounds for a refund. Lenovo is just being a little bitch and they'll most likely lose.
They'll do anything to bring attention to themselves! Gotta prove that BSD isn't dead, you know.
By the same logic I could sue apple for the apple tax on the G5, the iMac, my iphone, ... it doesn't make sense at all and only in the EU could you see something like that :)
It's plain as day who is right here, it's ... er ... the guy that ... oh ... um ... ahh ...
GUYS!? It's BSD vs Microsoft, whose side are we on?
Your car analogy works just fine, up to the point where I'm arguing that I'm owed a refund on parts of the computer HARDWARE I don't like or want to keep/use. (A refund because I dislike and don't use the touchpad? Same as complaining about back seats in a new car purchase, really.)
But THIS dispute pertains to the whole idea that a system manufacturer can pre-load another company's operating system SOFTWARE onto the computer (complete with legal agreements the end user has to click to accept as binding), and then tell you it was all really "one piece of equipment".
I don't think there's a fair comparison in the world of cars? But I guess if you wanted to force a car analogy to fit here, you'd be talking about something like buying a new Chevy, and the dealer including the "Complete Chevrolet Maintenance and Repair Guide" in the glovebox, and billing you an extra $125 or so for it on your invoice, as one of the line-item "features" on the vehicle. Would you think it was still reasonable to tell everyone to "Skip buying this Chevrolet, because it comes with this unnecessary repair guide!"? Or would you haggle with your salesperson to see if he/she could sell you the car without that book included?
It's been a long time since I had my business law class and I'm sure there must be an IAAL here now...
Anyway...First of all, you paid for the laptop. They have your money and then they throw the EULA under your nose. I can't remember the legal term, but because they have your money doesn't that invalidate the agreement?
Second, I don't know of any retailer that will give you a refund on a computer for any reason even if it's defective. You have to exchange it for another one - at best. So, in effect, you have to click on the EULA to have a usable product that you've already paid for - in other words (again I can't remember the legal term) since you have no choice or alternatives to agreeing to the EULA, it's not worth the electrons that display it.
So, doesn't that mean MS' EULAs are completely worthless is this case?
We don't do this with any other product, why should we with PCs? If you don't like the GoodYear tires on your car, you don't go up to them asking for a refund for just the tires.
This is like buying a family sedan and saying you don't want the family they provided, as you've got your own.
It's a major part of the problem that Lenovo thinks they are selling me an operating system, and an even bigger problem that they think this is their "IP" and a value-add thing rather than just corrupt bundling.
There is not a EULA when starting OS X on a new machine which says 'if you do not agree, you may get a refund of OS X'.
I know the EULA states you can get a refund if you don't agree to the terms however, that still doesn't mean Lenevo have to give you the laptop sans windows at a cheaper rate. They can simply say "you don't won't to pay for windows? Fine, send us the laptop and we'll refund what you paid for it".
I wouldn't be surprised if lenovo paid something low as in $5 per license of windows when everything was said and done, and then recouped the cost of the license with bloatware. This guy would be miffed to get a $5 check and microsoft would be miffed to have their B2B cost revealed to be a tiny tiny fraction of what they gut consumers for.
Is it sad that I am more likely to recognize you and your posts by your sig than your name or UID?
With the deals Microsoft has with each manufacturer, that "Microsoft Tax" probably doesn't amount to much money. Anybody has any knowledge of how much manufacturers pay for each Windows license?
According to some story circulating the net ( http://forum.ubuntuusers.de/topic/wo-kaufe-ich-ein-notebook-mit-linux-13-herste/2/ ), the Lenovo hotline in Germany denies that it is possible, but if you talk to a certain person at Lenovo, you will get a refund of 30 Euros for your Windows license.
I have not tried myself, maybe for my next laptop...
No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
Guys, I have used FreeBSD for a decade on multiple machines, some running CURRENT, and thus have had the privilege of not only listening to PHK's reasoned discussions, but also engaging in such discussions with him. I also supported his paid development project a few years ago, so you can be sure that I am *not* an unbiased contributor to this article.
That said, I am pretty sure that PHK didn't just decide over coffee or beer to sue Lenovo without giving the matter serious thought, research and consideration. Certainly, what MS charges OEMs and distributors for licenses is far less than the retail price you or I would pay, so I don't personally think that money is the issue at all. I haven't asked him personally so can't say with authority, but I would imagine that this is more about OS choice (or none) during the configure/customize process when shopping online and opting out of a MS OS up-front rather than any monetary settlement. It's the principle of the issue, not the money. At least that's how I see it and how I would like to see the outcome. Give consumers a choice to opt out of a forced MS OS, even if there is no financial benefit.
Mike O, KT2T
...at least if you're a student. Have a look at Lenovo Campus.
Especially if the radio had an EULA you were presented with *after* you bought the car, and the car wouldn't drive unless the radio was working.
He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.
The car analogy is awful and doesn't apply at all to the situation. This specific weakness (among a host of stupid assumptions) is a pet peeve of mine;
It is true i could sell those seats for a profit on ebay
1. Clearly the author doesn't know the ridiculous intricacies of reselling a Microsoft OS license on ebay.
2. Clearly the author doesn't understand the fundamental limits of the OS installer he would attempt to resell thus rendering it practically worthless.
I'll leave the blatant misuse of the term "profit" to another post.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
If the person is so gung-ho about not having to pay for Windows then he/she should have done ten minutes of research to find a manufacturer that isn't contractually obligated by Microsoft to include a Windows license.
Such research would consist of calling all PC retailers in town and determining that such manufacturers whose goods are sold in town are members of the empty set.
for Apple to offer a refund for the copy of OS X sold with their hardware. I'd rather use FreeBSD.
In the USA, some manufacturers charge extra for the "naked" PC. I've seen this with Dell, where the so-called open source version of their PC is actually priced higher thereby discouraging its purchase.
That's because ReactOS isn't ready for prime time, and other operating systems can't run drivers made for Windows. So a manufacturer of PCs designed to run Ubuntu has to include a more expensive network card that has a Linux driver, a more expensive video card that has a Linux driver, a more expensive printer that has a Linux driver, etc.
As someone who uses Microsoft Windows as my primary OS, the issue of removing the "Microsoft Tax" just doesn't apply to people putting Linux on their laptop. It also applies to people, like myself, who prefer Windows XP over Vista, or people who want to make a "hackintosh" laptop.
The problem the Microsoft Tax is that Microsoft and computer companies choose which OS gets on people's computers, as opposed to consumers making this choice. I know a lot of people who think Linux is a type of tableware who were unhappy they had to get a new computer with Vista, even though XP has worked well enough for them and Vista ran like a slow pig on their computer.
Indeed, I'm glad I got a Linux laptop, because, while Linux didn't work for me, I was able to choose to put XP on the computer without having to pay for a copy of Vista I would never use.
If the computer ceases to function at that point, then Lenovo sold him a broken computer when once the EULA was declined.
I've never seen an answer to this, and halfway through the posts I still don't. Writing this from work, so I may COTFA later.
Emacs: for people who just never know when to
The option to turn down the EULA is not exposed through the UI at all. The only way to avoid agreeing to the EULA is to turn off the computer.
Certain OEM Vista versions includes a new clause in the EULA requiring the entire product (computer, etc.) to be returned. You cannot simply disagree with the EULA and ask to return the software. This is different from the EULA MS shows on their website, which is for off-the-shelf (unbundled) Vista. My gateway laptop came as such, discovered after about 60 minuets of discussion with Best Buy staff.
- Sig
I wonder if the EU will force Apple to stop bundling OSX with Macs, similarly to how MS cannot bundle IE with the OS... What if I want to buy a cool Macbook Air, but don't want to pay for OSX, lol?
It seems whatever law or license prohibits reselling it is void if Lenova/MS refuse to do a refund.
1.3% of my stock investment is in MSFT yet I cheer Poul-Henning Kamp and wish him to win. I believe Lenovo is screwing their customers with such tactics. As for Microsoft, the sooner they stop being predatory about their customer base (either directly or indirectly through their manufacturers such as Lenovo), the earlier they can concentrate on their software and SaaS. A win-win for everybody, in my opinion.
Catalin Braescu
Ofaly.com
Are you really so totally uninformed about the world outside your own country?
Why the heck should any American care about Europe? You seem to think that the world should be interested in Europe like it is self evident, and honestly I see no reason to care at all. The Japanese make better stuff than you, the Chinese are cheaper than you, Israelis and Indians are smarter and the Mexicans make better food.
There's just no point to the old continent these days.
I'd say we should withdraw from NATO.
PS. Europe has a punishment system too. It's your bad TV and lousy music.
I disagree. Mexican food is not that great.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.
How do I get an OS refund on a Macbook?
It's better than most European food. The only European country in which I like the majority of the food they make is Italy, and I don't really like the country otherwise.
when eu starts to fine them 500 k euro a day for not complying, like they did to microsoft.
Read radical news here
He's not being racist,
Ok. Let me first apologize if you are not a "God" type. I'm a right wing "God" guy and that's how I frame my universe. In doing so I say that however you frame your universe is your own damn business. I only give the warning because the framing that I communicate is useful to where I am coming from.
I do not see racism as some sort of a thing that a government program can cure or a generation or two from now will outgrow. The way I say things, racism is another tool of the evil to inspire the hearts of men to do terrible things and so I think that racism is a sort of temptation that that everyone has, or is. Humans have been racist since the beginning of time, and they always will be. Racism is simply a part of the human condition, like lust, or greed. It's not going to go away and the only socially realistic way to deal with it is not to approach it as something to be solved, like providing water to a village, but by giving people tools to deal with it when it occurs. It's almost like you have to say to yourself, every time, that you are not going to condemn or judge an entire people because of the actions of one man, generalize some because the actions of a few, and so on. You have to take each and every person for what they are, and actively hope that they can contribute, and furthermore, there is a certain amount of social spoils that must take place along racial lines, simply to check yourself. I've worked with plenty of liberal firms, that say they are not racist, but never employ a black guy, because, there is no one of skill to fit the bill, but then can turn around and send those jobs overseas.
Sure, white people were bad to blacks. But blacks were bad to blacks, and now are sometimes bad to whites. You could go in endless circles pointing fingers and generalities and the only thing that can really work, at least from my own dumb white christian perspective, is to take a deep breath, have some patience, and check your own hate, and probably should listen to local sports radio.
There's just way too much hate out there, and being angry because you are white and pissed off, or black and pissed off, that's not God talking, that's the Devil talking.
It may not be the Flying Spaghetti Monsters, or some sort of new age thing or some other thing like that, but that vision works for me. If something else works for you, that's cool too, but regardless of deity, you are going to have the impulse, emotionally, to hate and categorize based on race and if you don't admit that you have that capacity, you are doomed to do it.
Combating racism is not a government program or a capitalist product, but a personal discipline.
This is my sig.
Having read this and other posts in this thread I am amazed that some posters cannot understand the following:
The EULA is worded differently in different countries. It is no use quoting what is written in the American, Italian or Chinese version of the EULA - what is relevant is the Danish version.
Laws differ from country to country. Again, it is pointless to quote the law a country other than Denmark in trying to decide the most appropriate outcome for this case.
You can see this. I can see this. Why do some people believe that their little world is the only world that exists?
Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
The EULA for the Danish version of Vista Business says, " ... contact the supplier or installer for information about how to get a refund or a credit note. Could it be clearer?
I always have wondered, why MS have included such term in their EULA in the first place? What good does it do to them? I don't think any other OS or software have anything like this.
On my asus, when you decline the EULA, the computer turns off.
Those of you who are saying that he is trying to return the radio from a car fail to acknowledge that a radio doesn't come with an oppressive end-user no-rights agreement.
More over, the radio manufacturers haven't bought off the government to make it illegal for him to resell his radio.
How do you know Apple is charging you anything for a license to run OS X? (Comparisons between Apple and Microsoft are tedious. They're not even in the same business.)