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Hidden Fees Discovered For "Free" Windows 7 Upgrade
An anonymous reader writes 'Thousands of recent computer purchasers who are expecting to receive free upgrades to Windows 7 when it is released on October 22 may be surprised to learn that some big computer makers are quietly tacking on hefty processing fees as high as $17 to mail out those disks to some buyers.' How about they process $0 to click a link and download a file?
The RTM of windows 7 has been out for 2 months now? 3 by the street date of Oct 22nd.
This time is of course used for manufacturing, marketing, etc.
Meanwhile they should be offering fully updated ISOs directly on the windows site for everyone and anyone to download - the OS itself contains its own validation so there's no harm in letting anyone download it. Then you buy your key digitally with a steam-like system, this would even benefit Microsoft by serving as a key registration system.
*.sig
Similar to paying $9.99 for going from Leopard to Snow Leopard (if you bought a Mac with Leopard recently).
It's annoying but it's not hefty.
And in this (Win7) case the price seems to be a manufacturer thing and not a MS thing. Ranging from $0 to $17.
When I mentioned this to my office colleague, he said $17 was a quite a bargain if that's what it takes to it makes Vista go away.
How many people out there consider the hours of work this upgrade will take to be free as well? Everyone who purchased a computer has obviously been using it for months, and chances are the majority of them won't know how to or be too afraid to attempt the upgrade themselves. $17 really is irrelevant compared to what they will expect a lot of you on here to do for them. Would anyone here charge under $100 to babysit a stranger's PC while this was going on?
Because of course the infrastructure to serve 3gb of data to each customer doesn't cost anything?
Not that I'm defending the practice of charging for a free upgrade, free upgrades should be free, postage free too, but suggesting doing it digitally means there would be no cost is ignorant. In the UK with the extortionate costs of bandwidth I think posting a CD first class via Royal Mail might in fact be cheaper.
A lot of people would just want to stick the Windows 7 DVD they receieve through the post in the drive too. Downloading an ISO and knowing how to burn an ISO rather than copying the file across like they do usually when writing CDs (if they've ever even written one before) would be too much for some users.
i never quite understood how fees can be hidden... do they sneak into your apartment and take the CA$H hidden by the XYZ fairy under your pillow, or something?
weinersmith
Well, the upgrade to Windows 7 Operating System is free. The OS is free and not the CDs. But, yeah a download or something would be a neat idea, but then it would likely be hacked in like 2 seconds.
i can imagine all the calls to Dell. i burned the iso to a dvd and it still won't boot
Exactly. I don't know of anyone who actually purchased boxed copied of Windows, except at universities where it's about 1/10th the actual cost. All the flavoursof Win 7 should be directly available for download once you've got your verification code after the payment.
Face your daemons!
Since I don't have Vista, does that mean I don't have the privilege of paying for that fee?
Goodbye Slashdot. You've changed.
I am sure I read when they announced that the free upgrade doesn't include shipping. Also the Vista upgrade, I got with my laptop didn't include shipping. Maybe the manufacturers and sales reps aren't being clear, I don't know. I do know when I was talking to my sister about free upgrade when she purchased her new computer, I definitely told her she would need to pay the shipping.
They tried to do something like that with upgrading inside the vista line. People could not under stand that the vista disk was all of the vista's in one.
Ok, when I purchased a new notebook from ibuypower, it came with Vista 64-bit, and a free coupon to upgrade to Win7 64-bit. Even if I have to pay $17 to have it shipped to me, who cares? I just got a free licensed copy of Win7 64-bit. Definitely beats paying $120-$200 on the same thing at Best Buy or Walmart. Besides, hidden fees on free things are old news.
"Chance favors only the prepared mind." -Archimedes
You should know... when Microsoft say FREE, it ALWAYS COME UP WITH AN HIDDEN COST. ALWAYS!!
I can't call that English
You can't download a holographic seal of authenticity now can you?
Not the dreaded upgrad fees! Those sound expensive!
I don't get in today's age of informed individuals how people still think digital distribution is "free". Maybe your personal site is dirt cheap, but larger companies that use a ton of bandwidth pay a fortune for that bandwidth and the management and guarantees that go along with it. I work for a small company that doesn't have a large website and we do nothing like digital dist, but our bandwidth still costs over $2m per year. I agree downloads vs sending disks would be cheaper, but saying it would be free is just plain ignorant.
Open source projects can charge reasonable fees for distribution of source code. Why are these any different?
If the fee was stated *plainly* and the customer factored the fee into their decision, then fine. If instead businesses understand that people won't buy a new computer because they don't want Vista, and they entice customers with a FREE upgrade to Windows 7, then it HAD BETTER BE FREE. It doesn't matter if $17 doesn't break the bank. Even $0.01 is too much if I was coerced into a buying decision by a vendor who was withholding information. DISTRIBUTION COST IS IRRELEVANT. It doesn't matter if it costs money for the CD or online downloads. If they knew that it would cost money for distribution they weren't willing to eat, THEN YOU STATE UP FRONT THAT IT WON'T BE FREE. Otherwise, you keep your promise to the consumer. PERIOD. They simply have no excuses here. I don't understand why people don't understand this.
Time to get the torrents ready....
While not the free promised, the terms hefty and $17 haven't been used together since the 1930s.
Truth, Just Us, And Hatred For All Mankind!
I'd didn't think the upgrade would be $0, but I imagine that when the time comes I'll be able to go to Microsoft's site and get it, since I did things the smart way and built a PC and bought OEM software. I can take care of my customers and they never knew the difference. But that's me, I'm not running some MM$ corp.
I recently purchased an Acer laptop (hey, it was cheap and I'm just using it for surfing). Since I didn't choose overnight shipping, it was free. I may not get the DVD for a week or so. But, I'm not in a hurry either. I think this really depends on the shipping you choose and the manufacturer you buy from.
They still might charge you a handling charge. If you look at this week's Staples flyer, they put their Vista PCs on clearance, with a free upgrade to Windows 7..... but then the fine print says you have to pay shipping and handling to get it. Great.
Staples is not an honest company. I recently bought some printer paper from them minus a $25 mail-in rebate. They never bothered to tell me that it's on a credit card and therefore I have to spend the money - I can't just cash it and put it in my savings like I originally planned. :-|
I hope Staples ends-up like Circuit City (bankrupt).
I hope Comcast ends-up like Baltimore Gas & Electric (controlled by the government).
I hope RIAA's building blows up.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Now I get the bit that as someone else rips you off for a similar amount then its standard practice, but not hefty?
People out there sell games for $5 and that is to get something new. $9.99 or $17 is a rip-off as there is clear margin in the work.
1) The DVD printing is already done
2) These guys should have an automated warehouse for shipping
3) That means the only element is shipping cost
Remember that Media costs et al should be excluded as this is a "free" upgrade so its just the processing costs that you are paying for. This means shipping ONLY as everything else SHOULD be automated in a modern supply chain that is shipping a standard size product.
So how much would it really cost to ship these items $2? $3? That gives a profit of $7 per shipment for Apple and $14 for the manufacturer who is shipping on the Microsoft stuff.
That is a hefty amount as it represents an additional set of margin for the supplier.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
I spent this last Saturday morning wandering around the computer aisles of a large retail electronics shop in Sydney, Australia, trying hard to avoid the "shop assistants". Their assistance seemes to involve trying to up-sell me from a sub-notebook to a "full-sized" laptop.
What struck me was the stickers saying that the larger/newer/better machines had "free upgrade to Windoze 7" (well, wordz to that effect). Meanwhile, the simpler machines had no such sticker, and were destined to be Vista/XP slaves for... well, a while, until Micro$oft lets these OSs go into limbo. They were generally Centrino and low-end Duo machines -- not slouches, just so "last year".
Am I surprised that there might be "hidden charges"?
Well, I'm as surprised as I was to look in the directory structure of the machines and to find that there was typically about a 20GB "recovery" drive, 'hidden' as a D drive, that I could not readily access and find what was in there. Usually, the 160/320GB drive in the machines had this ~20GB mystery which meant that in the few minutes of tinkering at the store I could not explore it and discover its secrets. Then, the 'pristine' C drive had about 60-75GB of "system" residing on it. Well, I assume that there demo machines did not have more than perhaps 10MB of demo software. (I'd feel that I'd need only about 2-3MB to do the tricks they seemed to pull in flashy good-lloks material.)
So, what does this all say about Windoze 7 upgrade?
Caveat emptor.
Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.
How to burn the ISO?
I burned three already. The wife's cat is charred and my fingers have bad blisters.
And I still cannot upgrade after three reboots!
Personally I prefer a Cabernet Sauvignon to a cheap Merlot.
News: Hidden Fees Discovered For "Free" Windows 7 Upgrad
You dropped an 'e'....Hey is that you: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1390085&cid=29617177 ?!
They should just do a single ISO capable of installing anyone of the 32 flavours of win7. Like they did when vista first came out, anyone remember those "upgrade" dvds?
I think that exposes the truth of copyrights to consumers a bit too clearly for corporate comfort.
Windows has traditionally been about receiving the product. You go to the store, give them that ungodly sum that they charge, and then come home with your shiny box and DVD. Now, online distribution is coming up, and Microsoft likely will go that way, but allowing them access to the whole thing before buying a key puts the issue into the spotlight too much. They've already downloaded the system for free, and now they'd be paying several hundred dollars for a code to unlock it. At that point even the simplest minded consumer will put together that all they really paid for was that key and the other stuff costs really nothing (which has always been the case, but it's not been so obvious).
If Microsoft only allows a download after paying the fee then there's still some level of abstraction. IE, the consumer feels like they're buying at least a big file.
Just my take on the issue anyways.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
and it's not like they don't have the resources in place already. my company has an agreement with MS that allowed me to purchase - legaly - a copy of office 2007 enterprise for R$ 26.00 ( that's $ 15.00 american bucks), download an instalable .EXE and run it. it's now working under wine on my personal notebook.
at the company, for business use, we have access to ALL microsoft software products free. all available for download as instalable .MSI, .EXE or burnable .ISO
this handling fees, this is plain old greed IMHO.
one more way that shows how apple handles this much better. you can buy snow leopard upgrade for a few bucks, then install it on top of tiger. tiger users are not eligible for the cheap upgrade, only leopard users are. but apple didn't put any verification on the upgrade. they just trust tiger users will do the right thing and buy the full package. wanna bet it's paying off ?
What ? Me, worry ?
To "Digital Dist is NOT FREE", $17 for 24Gb (3GB) is cellphone-data pricing. It's "I laid my OC3 down out of continuous clear rubies and emeralds"-pricing. It's I-can-screw-the-customer-and-get-away-with-it pricing.
What's going on here is you have stupid evil companies that are used to making $20 every time a customer needs a CD, and are merrily continuing their extortion.
That being said, my brother requested his windows 7 upgrade from Acer, and they did it for free. Props to Acer.
Not an honest company? Take it you didn't bother to actually read the rebate offer or the price tag which both make mention of it being a visa debit card? That has nothing to do with dishonesty but rather being too lazy to read what you are in essence agreeing to. Are rebate cards a crappy deal? Yes, just the same as rebates in general are.
How much does your company pay for this feature from Microsoft? Its not free, believe me...
Windows has traditionally been about receiving the product. You go to the store, give them that ungodly sum that they charge, and then come home with your shiny box and DVD.
For the tiny minority that buys windows retail.
For the vast majority windows is included pre-installed with the PC, is never upgraded (until they get a new PC) and comes with a recovery DVD if you're lucky.
At that point even the simplest minded consumer will put together that all they really paid for was that key and the other stuff costs really nothing...
The simplest minded consumer will be the ones who are definitely *not* buying retail Windows and will see no change at all.
Our supplier insight.com/uk which had 'free' plastered all over their site when making the purchase I had this issue. After purchase I decided to look at the 'free' upgrade path. After being redirected to HP then a 3rd party website I was required to enter the serial numbers of the units. Only after this verification was I told it was a cost of £21.99 per license for postage/packaging and handing etc etc (no economies of scale for the 3 I wanted). at no point in the T&Cs does it mention the actual price that will have to be paid (only Insight displayed the upgrade as 'free') they say there are charges but does not state what they are. So how was I supposed to know what a reasonable charge was for these âoefreeâ upgrades without 1st having to order the items, take delivery of them and then unpack them? It therefore seems logical that their Terms and Conditions should go beyond the stating there may be costs and be a little more forthcoming about the actual charges. Insight are happy to mislead buyers with the words âoefreeâ. Iâ(TM)m interested to know what amazing courier service is being employed and what shiny gold plated box the copy of the software will come in since it requires £21.99 to post and package a DVD, this leads me to believe that the whole £21.99 is not the incidental P&P charges and that someone if making a little profit from this supposed âoefreeâ upgrade. Surely I can forgo a large part of this cost by downloading an ISO from them and them e-mailing me the CD keys...? strangely not an option... So it seems it's a rather cunning practice which, no doubt, is designed to mislead.
"Shipping and Handling" is a scam in whatever form it takes. This is especially true when those charges are excessive.
Yes - charging shipping to pass along a variable, customer dependent charge is outrageous!
Get back under your bridge.
Can't you just put $25 from your checking account in savings and use the credit card to buy groceries? I hate the MIR dance as much as anyone does, but you win if you get the rebate.
I don't know of anyone who actually purchased boxed copied of Windows
How do Mac owners who use Boot Camp or Parallels ordinarily get their genuine copies of Windows?
I don't see why it would be so difficult to have a website where you can buy Windows 7; download it as a customised ISO wrapped into a CD-burner program for the OS of choice, and burn it yourself complete with auto-generated serial.
Just my 2c.
throw new NoSignatureException();
Frickin hilarious, so much time spent conversating about something people can choose to or not to accept. If you don't like it, don't pay it. If you do, pay it!
With the OEM copy that came with the computer they quit using when they bought the mac. They may be not quite 'legal' due to OEM licensing restrictions, but they are genuine.
You go to the store, give them that ungodly sum that they charge, and then come home with your shiny box and DVD.
Seriously, what is UNGODLY about what they charge for their product? You spend more in a MONTH on cable TV than what it costs to buy Vista Super Premium. And don't give me the "It's expensive because it doesn't work" BS. If it doesn't work, don't buy it.
Personally, I run one of each (Win,Mac,Ubuntu) at my house, and i have no problem with the cost i need to pay for Windows or mac. Different tools for different uses.
My user number is prime. Is yours?
That's actually how MS does its student offers, at least in the UK. They sell you a licence key for £30, disks for about £10 if you want them, and give you a link to a .iso file or an installer.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
How about they process $0 to click a link and download a file?
How about Apple do the same with Snow Leopard ???
It's a business ffs ... get used to it !
i bought a laptop from acer this summer thinking i would get the windows 7 upgrade, but mine was one of the ones that were unsupported as I guess they discontinued it at the same time. Strangely some other people with the same model were seemingly granted the upgrade. It kind of sucks that I'll have to pay $100 or so to keep using windows 7. I'm kind of hoping that microsoft gives another round of cheap upgrades out again, otherwise. I don't think I could ever go back to vista, and now that really isn't an option since I wiped the recovery partition, which I could never seem to access anyways. (Is it too much to include a $0. 25 dvd in the box????)
I wanna pay what dell pays. $70 or so seems pretty reasonable versus the $2-300 M$ wants at retail....
zosxavius photography
I did buy a boxed copy of Windows 7 Pro Upgrade for me, and Windows 7 Home Premium Upgrade for my son at half price during the upgrade sale before July 11th. I preordered and have to wait until October 22nd.
But it looks like I'll have to wait until I can afford to upgrade the RAM, and my son's TI Wireless card does not have Windows 7 support as far as I know, so I might have to buy him a new wireless card.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Yeah, letting millions of people download dvd sized iso's wouldn't really use any bandwidth at all. Darn these companies and their wanting to get paid for their efforts, we should kill them all now.
Asus is charging ~USD $40 to ship the freaking DVD to Mexico!
For comparison, a book sent from amazon US to Mexico cost around $5
How can they justify that? were is the 'free' in this free upgrade?
At least they could throw a torrent out there...
Ok, I think I'll grab me coat now....
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
slashdot editors suck ass
It's only $17
Plus the majority of the people out there aren't tech savvy to deal with digital distribution; and there are still a good amount of the population out there still running on dial up.
What the manufacturer should have done is have two options; one you paid $17 for the media to be ship to your house; two download it from our site for free.
I suggest you look up the word "fungible".
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
I prefer to get my operating systems for free!
Ubuntu is available free of charge and we can send you a CD of the latest version (9.04 (Jaunty Jackalope)) with no extra cost
BG&E? You are really narrowing down where you live.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
He probably got something more like a Staples gift card.
Thousands of files are seeded everyday at the cost of about 0 cents.
Yes, you're right, the manufacturing cost of a "Key" is miniscule. Guess what, it's just like the cost of building a car. You don't think it costs 20,000 dollars in materials and labor to build a car, do you? Aren't you completely indignant that you had to pay that much? The nerve of car companies covering design and R&D costs and they expect to cover the costs of marketing their product in the sales price!? Well, that's outrageous!
Every product has hidden costs embedded into the price. In Microsofts case, it's dev time and marketing, and yes, a profit too. If you don't think the dev time yielded a high enough quality product, or a product you're interested in, by all means, go buy a Mac or download *nix. But, just because it costs next to nothing to create "keys" doesn't mean there weren't some very real expenses in delivering this product that need to be recouped.
Seriously, what is UNGODLY about what they charge for their product? You spend more in a MONTH on cable TV than what it costs to buy Vista Super Premium.
Not even close. My monthly satellite bill is $60. Windows Vista Ultimate is $320. Home Premium is $260. That's comparable to my car payment, but that alone is not what makes it ungodly. What makes it so is that the entirety of my computer costs about that much pre-software, and that there are plenty of solutions out there that do what Windows does for free. Not to mention that when any big customer buys the thing in bulk (which is primarily how they maintain their monopoly) they pay more in the $25-50 range, which is about all that the product is worth.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
Both MS and Apple won't do it since it makes software retailers (dealers) obsolete. Not like they don't have bandwidth or technology to do it, Apple sells petabytes of content every week or so over the net.
In Apple case, they want their country distributors sell it, localized in some cases (like .TR) and with the real prices which translates 1$=1Euro. MS has a way more localized way of doing things, for them, Windows is released in a country when their distributor packs a local language DVD and puts on shelves.
Of course, I hate these old fashion things which only helps DVD plastic manufacturers as much as you do but it is not piracy or anything both are afraid from. In Apple's case, they could even release .ISO without DRM and they would trust their customer base who would still buy the legal one. That customer base is one thing MS can only dream about.
>>>didn't bother to actually read the rebate offer or the price tag which both make mention of it being a visa debit card? That has nothing to do with dishonesty but rather being too lazy to read what you are in essence agreeing to
>>>
Dear Staples employee:
As a matter of fact after I filed my rebate and it said I was getting a Visa card, I did initially think it was MY mistake. So I looked at the original newspaper ad again. No mention whatsoever of getting a card instead of cash or check. It just said $25 mailed, so I was expecting actual money that I could deposit in my bank.
It wouldn't be the first time a company forgot to mention something in their ads. At my local grocery store they advertised "Buy 4 Edys ice cream quarts, and get $4 back instantly." When I arrived they said it was a mistake and I'm supposed to get a $4 *coupon* not 4 dollars.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
millions of people download dvd sized iso's wouldn't really use any bandwidth at all. Darn these companies and their wanting to get paid for their efforts
Simple solution to that cost issue - simply torrent it..
>>>Can't you just put $25 from your checking account in savings and use the credit card to buy groceries?
Well obviously that's what I have to do, but by using their $25 prepaid card instead of my own private card, I lose $1.25 in cashback rebates. Not a big deal but as you said - it's annoying.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
While there are some R&D costs instilled in the price of a car, there is still a physical good being traded. They are not profiting solely on a "product" that can be infinitely reproduced as virtual no per-item cost. And I hardly think the Microsoft, the company floating in a pool of cash so large that they could wipe their asses with it if they wanted to, is really just covering their R&D costs plus a small profit margin. No, they're taking their illegally obtained monopoly and using it to jack that price up through the roof because they can. Microsoft could charge 10% of what they do for Windows and still turn a profit large enough to make most millionaires jealous, yet they aren't satisfied. "Simple economics" you say - sure, I understand, but in reality the laws of supply and demand get tossed out of the window with copyright because supply is no longer limited. All you have is demand, and when that demand is forced to a near universal demand of all users because the company illegally used monopolistic practices to make it so, then the price will never be fair, or reflect anything close to what a free market would push it towards.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
Can't you just put $25 from your checking account in savings and use the credit card to buy groceries? I hate the MIR dance as much as anyone does, but you win if you get the rebate.
That's a great idea but what if the person wants to be a victim rather than someone inconvenienced? :/
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Does Parallels come with Windows? I've not tried using it to run Windows (I've not tried using it at all recently because VirtualBox had one compelling feature that cause me to switch: the ability to have its kernel modules loaded for more than a day without causing kernel panics due to idiots not being able to read Intel's - extensive - documentation on how IPIs work), but the copy of VirtualBox that I own, from before MS bought Connectix, came with a valid Window 98 license and a CD that did a fast install into a new VM and set up the drivers correctly. I assumed companies selling VM software for running Windows would do the same thing.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Really? I'm a student in Canada and I got my CD key for Windows 7 for $0 from the Microsoft Academic Alliance (MSAA).
Maybe, but I think it's more to do with support. MS doesn't want to walk granny though downloading an .iso (over dialup), finding and installing a program capable of burning it (not included in XP or Vista), and then running through the installer (big long unpaid support call). Remember, most people who buy OEM PC's don't even know what an .iso is. That's why they had to include "Is downloading the same as installing?" on their FAQ.
Then there's the extra buck or two they make off mailing media. And if it goes through an OEM too, they want their buck or two as well. As with all things, this can be chalked up to "save/make an extra buck or two, put it through some imaginary math, and hey look at that sweet bottom line for next quarter!"
Shift happens. Fire it up.
It sounds alot like you just feel the need to bitch about something today. Which is cool and all, but /. is not a place for sympathy. Mostly we will just tell you to "Get a life", "Learn to read.", "Get a girlfriend." or maybe "Move out of your mothers basement.". None of these will actually help you. I think that by coming here with half baked bitches all I can say is ... "You must be new here."
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
Unfortunately, it's not near universal anymore, and there are some very real limits to the number of copies MS can sell. And yes, they do have a lot of profit. But to say that selling products with copyrights don't have fixed and substantial costs is a misrepresentation. And note, you'd probably be surprised how much R&D goes into a new auto. I believe GM had to layout about 1 billion for the development of the Volt.
MS put about 6 billion into the development of Vista. Their market is huge, and so they probably had no problem getting the 30 million purchases needed to recoup the cost (at $199 retail for Home Premium). But you also need to account for the steep discounts for OEMs, etc. It's a big outlay of cash for a product. And I can't even begin to imagine how much they spent on marketing...
Depending on the company, the customer is charged US$25 to US$35 for the upgrade. Ouch!
Which OEMs still ship install DVDs? I'm not aware of any.
As a small boutique vendor, I can tell you that Microsoft is not the one charging for this. All of my clients who have participated in the Technology Assurance program will have a totally free copy of Windows 7 mailed to them sometime in early November. Yes there's a bit of a delay, but it is totally free. No shipping, no handling, nothing. Big OEM's are using this opportunity to rape the unsuspecting public. Hate on them, not Microsoft.
Dear commodore64_love,
We, Slashdot, are collectively tired of your immature rants. You are a Republican. You are unwanted. Go away.
A Republican! GET THE PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES!
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
If you're going to read fine print, make sure you read it all and understand it all.
Dell's ad states that shipping and handling charges "MAY" apply.
And in response to mouseprint's question, they said that US customers will not be charged.
mouseprint then decided Dell were not being honest. They're not.
It's a violation of MS's EULA to use an OEM copy of Windows on a different computer (motherboard). Installing an OEM copy on a different computer will trigger WPA and require a call to MS's clearinghouse to get it activated successfully. Though, in my experience, the people on the other end could care less if you're trying to activate a copy of Windows on some different hardware, they'll give you the key anyways after you sit on hold for 45 minutes.
grep -iw skynet
I recently bought some printer paper from them minus a $25 mail-in rebate. They never bothered to tell me that it's on a credit card and therefore I have to spend the money - I can't just cash it and put it in my savings like I originally planned. :-|
Really? Just save an extra $25 into your savings account and use the $25 rebate debit to buy groceries that week. It's $25, not $200. Whine much?
Charging $2 extra per license to make up for the bandwidth would be negligible compared to the original cost of the license. This is not an issue.
Dear commodore64_love,
We, the Slashdot community, are collectively tired of your immature rants. You are a Republican. You are unwanted. Go away.
The RIAA is a fine organization that represents the recording industry against thieves.
It is evident that commodore64_love infringes copyrights without paying, which makes commodore64_love worse than the welfare recipients he despises.
Sincerely,
The Undersigned
Slashdot Community
Madonna is the best!
I'd happily buy licenses for software I use online to legalize the copies I obtained from other less legal routes. I wish more companies would let me do it.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Comment removed based on user account deletion
That's as dumb as a blade of grass.
When you buy a new house, or rent an apartment, do you really think you paid all that money just for two shiny (or not)keys, and the bathroom is superfluous, even worth nothing more than what you think two keys at the Wal-Mart should cost?
Grow up and stop sniffing the anti-copyright glue. When you buy a copy of Windows whatever, you get more than a key to enter into your computer. Playing word games doesn't change that, and pretending that Windows is exclusively a scheme to ransom your computer is also. Microsoft doesn't have to do much now to make a new version of Windows desireable except pay a few thousand developers to make the code. Since we expect (and need) ongoing support to stomp out the inevitable security flaws, this money also goes towards that effort. Discussions about how much and when we should pay Microsoft will cement the reality that if you use Windows, you pay Microsoft. Probably.
Now, if you want free, go load your favorite Linux distribution. Bound to be able to get your hands on a live CD distro to get you started. Free.
And if you want to avoid both, consider Apple. Great product. Oh, and you won't need to pay a couple hundred dollars to get a key that unlocks the software. You'll need a whole new computer. Not a cheap one either.
Really, grow up and stop with the gratuitous copyright-bashing. It's disingenuous, false, and naive. If you really hate it, choose a copyright ot license that better suits you. They are out there, and mostly free.
Me? I have to use Microsoft products, that's what the people that pay me need me to use. For my own pleasure, amusement, and purposes, I use other stuff.
Next thing you know, you'll be whining about how the Internet should be free to you.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
You must not have been paying attention to slashdot for the last few months... whining is all he seems to do. And ranting about socialism in Ayn Rand's terms. Hint: SHE IS NOT AN ECONOMIST. SHE IS NOT A PHILOSOPHER. SHE IS A THIRD RATE WRITER.
They do this here in the US as well through Digital River. I just purchased a Windows 7 Pro upgrade for $30 from here: http://windows7.digitalriver.com/ You have to use a .edu address to purchase, and they'll send a link around the 22nd to download an ISO.
Reno Web Design |
MS charges a fee to mail you a DVD to get a "free" upgrade from Vista32 to Vista64 if you bought it retail. There is a "processing" fee of like 12 or 13 bucks I think.
This is about par for the course it seems.
However if you are going to offer something as "free" you should at least allow for a free download. Hell make it a Torrent and they don't even have to cover all the bandwidth, however there are liability and security issues there. If given the download option, I don't see a big deal for having a processing fee for mailing a physical copy.
What if the car you previously purchased was a lemon, as well as the previous OS (Vista)? Why should you pay yet again for what amounts to turd polish? Your thinking will keep you in the cubical.
The last thing I want is Comcast controlled by the government. Government has no business in private Market.
It's true for student offers in America, too.
Okay I read the wikipedia entry. What's the relevance?
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Not to mention having to cover the ongoing cost of their products through service+support, patch updates, new tools, and maintaining the overhead of security training and specialists required for expertise on all of the areas the OS covers.
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
YOU EVIL FUCKING PIRATE!
Dear commodore64_love,
We, the Slashdot community, are collectively tired of your immature rants. You are a Republican. You are unwanted. Go away.
The RIAA is a fine organization that represents the recording industry against thieves.
It is evident that commodore64_love infringes copyrights without paying, which makes commodore64_love worse than the welfare recipients he despises.
Sincerely,
The Undersigned
Slashdot Community
Madonna is the best! [madonna.com]
My monthly satellite bill is $60
OK, I haven't paid for satellite or cable in a while. It is still MUCH cheaper for something that does a HELL of a lot more than shows commercials all day. As a quick example: XP was around for 7 years. $300 / 7 / 12 = $3.5/month
What makes it so is that the entirety of my computer costs about that much pre-software
Right, but what is your computer without software? A pile of chips.
there are plenty of solutions out there that do what Windows does for free
Cool, use them. That is your choice. Some people choose to use software that costs money. Gimp vs. Photoshop, Word vs. OO.
which is about all that the product is worth
Sorry, see Econ 101: Valuation
My user number is prime. Is yours?
>>>It sounds alot like you just feel the need to bitch about something today.
I can't help that. The actions of the corporations makes the complaining inevitable. Perhaps if they stopped searching for ways to screw the citizens (like in this article with "free" upgrades costing 20 dollars) then not just me, but ALL of us would have less things to complain about.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
In Microsofts case, it's dev time and marketing, and yes, a profit too.
Not true. I was told that Windows was spawned by the dark prince himself.
Windows is a downgrade. A variety of upgrades are available for free. Here are links to just two, Google can help find the others.
http://www.debian.org/
http://www.freebsd.org/
What is so unfortunate about that?
Steve, is that you? I never would have guessed that Ballmer browses slashdot as rhsanborn.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
This is why I've been waiting for the computer I want to be shipped with Windows 7. I really want to replace my dinosaur, but I wasn't about to spend a month tuning and tweaking a new computer only to have it completely destroyed by an upgrade. By the time you upgrade your OS, then install/upgrade your antivirus (that will surely complain or not work correctly) along with the lack of an optical drive on some notebook/netbook models; it's not worth the trouble.
Why? They'll just re-build them again.
I think what you really wish for is for the RIAA to lose all their money and hence their power.
>>>>>You are a Republican. You are unwanted. Go away.
>>A Republican! GET THE PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES!
That's alright. At least you Democrats didn't go so far as to call me "racist". Oh wait. You did. Also "unamerican" according to Oligarch Pelosi. I guess I won't be going to any more tea party protests, because y'all put me in my place. I'm sorry. I'll just go watch my television now and vegetate like a sheeople..... (drools)
BTW I've already worked-out plans -
- if the merd hits the fan, I'm moving to the EU so I can live under their Charter of Fundamental Rights. "Where liberty lives, there is my country." - Benjamin Franklin
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Actually you can cash those CCs, I recently got a $100 one from Verizon for signing up for DirectTV (Fios TV wasn't available in my area, so they push it to DTV) and I was able to go to Bank of America and withdraw (charge) $100 to my card and get the full amount, no fees or anything.
Do you pay tuition? Then part of your fees went to fund that MSAA subscription your school keeps.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
Yeah, but that's Windows 7 Professional, not Ultimate.
Did you actually get a CD mailed to you? Last I checked they still charge a small fee for burning, mailing, and all the paperwork trouble for them. I know they let you download it for free... See the above parents for arguments about all that.
Nope, I think it costs a bit less than $5k to build a car, considering the Chinese are doing it for that. /me rubs hands together in anticipation of the first DOT approved Chinese car that will finally kill off the worthless American auto industry.
You go to the store, give them that ungodly sum that they charge, and then come home with your shiny box and DVD.
Let me guess. You haven't done the math to compare Microsoft Windows upgrade costs with Apple OS X. If you did, you'd be saying "Holy shit I can't believe how much money I save by using Microsoft Windows instead of OS X," rather than some bullshit fanboi slander "ungodly sum."
Please.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
That hasn't always been true, and still is not true when it comes to any computer that is not a Dell/HP/Compaq/Gateway/Acer, etc. Piece of Crap.
@Mindless Drivel: 100% of Twitter posts ever Tweeted.
You're right, as far as you went, but you missed the real problem.
We - the purchasing public - need to understand that we're paying for design, R&D, etc, and we need to be willing to pay for that. We need to Know the Truth, and we need to be able to handle the truth. That requires an education process, and so far nobody is stepping up to it that way.
The mafiAA is still in the business of "selling things", and embarked on the campaign of "I.P. as thing," to justify that stake. I'm not saying that I.P. has no value, but I'm suggesting more that I.P. is a process instead of a thing - as you say, design, R&D, etc. We should be willing to pay for it. But by the same token I'm involved in I.P. development, and that development is embodied in things - in this case, chips. We reckon that the costs of a chip include development and both fixed and variable manufacturing costs, as well as hopefully, some profit. But implicit in that statement is that over time the cost of that chip decreases, for two reasons. First, manufacturing processes improve and yield goes up. Since a large share of the costs are per-wafer, the more good chips per wafer, the lower the cost per chip. Other costs, like packaging and final test, are per-chip, and that's a factor, too. Second, at some point the development costs are paid off, so that element of cost drops out.
That latter factor, recognizing that development costs are a fixed amount that can be recouped, and that that should be factored into the final cost of the product, is the key difference between ordinary development efforts and what the mafiAA is doing. The ultimate costs should be duplication, distribution, and royalties. But they want to keep the development costs in there forever. Part of this is "paying it forward," in that they are always funding development of new material, and today's revenue funds tomorrow's development. I can accept that, but what I can't accept is that it has removed the pressure for operating efficiently. They're incredibly fat organizations, and their revenue model depends on that fatness.
The real problem is that by not exposing a sensible cost model, and by trying to turn their I.P. into fixed-cost "things," they're also failing to instill public favor for the very concept of funding development. If they were up-front about it, even if they admitted how much of today's revenue was fuding tomorrow's music, the public might be more willing to accept that. But they would have to slim down, and they'd have to have some schedule to allow "development costs" of some music to be paid off.
Oh, and as they're "funding development" of new stuff, they'd need a little better discrimination than a lot of the drek that they're funding now.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
The same in the US. I got to download the ISO image and the DVD key online.
Someone below pointed out it was the Professional edition and not Ultimate. With the vista experience, I would prefer the less bloat of professional edition. But thats just me.
And then they'll get on the Internet, go to any forum where "Hackintoshes" are being discussed, and scream bloody murder about how people are violating the OS X EULA OEM license...
Check if your school has MSAA subscription, you can get it for $0.
Better than their money - their access to the copyrights.
Unfortunately, copyrights will extend indefinitely as long as Disney is around and "Steamboat Willie" needs extensions.
Therefore, I wish for some way to make copyright extension, at least after a certain point, non-automatic and perhaps require a fee on a per-work basis. That way, Disney could keep "Steamboat Willie" copyrighted forever - 1 day, and a LOT of other copyrights would just expire, and enrichen the public domain.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Doing some simple math here:
Lets say our Product MSRP is $400
Lets also say we spent $40,000,000 to develop it (R&D, Marketing, CEO wallet padding)
That means to "break even", you would have to sell 100,000 copies at $400. Or some higher number if you have "licensing agreements" with distributers wherein you sell the bulk license at a much lower price (lets say $100). What exactly is stopping you from selling your Product for a $100 flat rate? It's true that you would have to sell 4 times as many copies to break even, but at a much lower price many more people can afford it. You could even further cut costs by distributing electronically and dwindle the manufacturing expenses.
This sort of approach has already worked well for Steam and Wal-Mart. What is lost in unit profit is quickly made up in bulk sales. I don't argue that Microsoft spends insane amounts of money on developer time, marketing (Seinfeld probably costs a pretty penny), and R&D, but they do need to rethink the pricing strategy for their software. In most cases their prices are cost-prohibitive and likely hurt their overall sales. I remember buying a Windows XP Pro disk for $75, not that much more than a ps3/xbox game. Then Vista comes about with a $400 tag for the non-cripple-ware and MS just lost another customer.
Does Parallels come with Windows?
Guest OS not included.
but the copy of VirtualBox that I own, from before MS bought Connectix, came with a valid Window 98 license
Connectix never made VirtualBox. You're probably thinking of Virtual PC, which did come with Windows.
The problem is they were using the free upgrade as a means to sell hardware right before a new OS release. Most customers new the release was imminent, and would have waited. Although there is a cost to mail out the DVD's, I believe that was the cost to get the sale a month early, and therefore should not get passed onto the customer.
Apple is charging their customers in the same situation $10 for the Snow Leopard upgrade. I expected free, but paid the $10
Never again will we purchase new hardware that close to an OS update. I'm guessing we are not alone.
MS really needs to allow downloading of the latest and up to date OS ISO.
I hope Staples ends-up like Circuit City (bankrupt).
I hope Comcast ends-up like Baltimore Gas & Electric (controlled by the government).
I hope RIAA's building blows up.
I Love You
They never bothered to tell me that it's on a credit card and therefore I have to spend the money - I can't just cash it and put it in my savings like I originally planned. :-|
I must be missing something, is the $25 you expected to get from Staples on a check or something different than $25 you may already have? Why not just use the $25 VISA Card at a gas pump and save $25 from your account or another card?
no comment
You mean VirtualPC.
No, thanks :)
I'm a US student and I got Win7 Pro from MSDNAA, but it's only available to Computer Science and Engineering students. Before that I had to torrent Win7 like the rest of Slashdot.
At least you Democrats didn't go so far as to call me "racist". Oh wait. You did.
Oligarch Pelosi
I'm sorry that I didn't want to pretend that a Democrat insulting a Republican is some kind of travesty that a Republican would never dream of doing. Maybe you should watch some Fox and then say with a straight face that Democrats somehow pick on you.
the big PC makers would add their cost of an upgrade to the base system itself. Not to mention that they make way more off of each system than what it would cost them to distribute the upgrades. Especially at the volume they do.
Jesus Christ. You weren't "entitled" to the $25 off. It might have affected your choice, but the company was attempting to entice you. So your real bitch is that "OMG, instead of getting $25 in my pocket that I didn't have before, I only effectively get $23.75".
Don't forget the stamp and envelope that he had to shell out for to claim the rebate, not to mention the actual time spent on the project. And as he didn't own scissors he had to buy a pair just to cut out the sku, and then he got sick and lost time off work after licking the cheap envelope glue. All in all he figures the MIR cost him, including lost wages while ill, $456.11.
Aren't you completely indignant that you had to pay that much?
I would feel indignant, if I did pay that much.
I'd much rather buy a 2YO car for half the "new" price yet still having a good three quarters of its useful lifetime remaining.
Now apply that same reasoning to software, and you'll understand why Vista flopped, why people will continue using XP despite Win7 possibly not sucking (especially if they have to pay for the upgrade as TFA suggests), and for that matter why a surprisingly large number of people still run Windows 95 boxen (and companies still run NT4 servers).
The average Joe doesn't want "bleeding edge", he wants "good enough".
and they expect to cover the costs of marketing their product in the sales price!? Well, that's outrageous!
Yes, actually, that part does inspire me to outrage... And also to favor products that use a minimum of marketing (generics, the "fleet" models of most vehicles, underdogs with features over flash, etc).
I see your bigger point, that the cost of manufacturing alone doesn't include the cost of R&D. But consider, if Microsoft can afford to sell the vast majority of Windows licenses for a pittance to OEMs, why the hell can't the rest of us get the same? I don't even want a box and a CD, just sell me an ISO and a one-machine license for the same $7 Dell or HP would pay.
If somebody offers me, in writing, $25 back if I buy something, I damn well expect to get $25 back.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Here's my -2 "Whoosh" and "don't feed the trolls".
wow - did someone piss in your cereal this morning?
The OP did not say anything about copyrights being right or wrong, and didn't seem to to overly anti-copyright, and his point about microsoft's motives (or part of them) is arguably correct. He did mention that he thought the price of Windows is a lot, and he is free to think that if he wants. He didn't imply that it should be free or pirated.
I'm sure Microsoft is quite concerned about the abstraction between product and cost. People don't want to think about paying for development, testing and support. They want to pay for something they can hold in their hand or put on a shelf. That's why all the software boxes (and most other boxes) you see in the store are all bright and colourful, when a simple brown box would suffice. How many peoples comptur rooms do you go into and see software boxes on their shelves (collecting dust)? The box is a trophy. With a download there is no trophy.
Playing a 'word game' is EXACTLY what Microsoft is doing because they are afraid that if people 'think' that all they are paying for is an unlock code, then they won't be concerned when their brother in law 'gives' them the unlock code instead of buying it from Microsoft. So they make people think they are paying for a DVD, manual and box in addition to the software.
And there is nothing wrong with that, except for as other posters have pointed it adds cost to the product that it presumably passed on the the customer, as well as delays the release while the manufacturing process occurs. And Microsoft is fully within their rights to do both if they think that is the correct thing to do for their business.
See why he comes across like a complete douche?
Well, I don't know about his experience, but I can say that at my local Staples they will not let ANYONE but their friends have the Black Friday laptops. I watched them lie to everyone's faces and say they were gone until their friends made it to the front of the line and then they handed them over. Those that had been waiting in line for hours complained to the manager and basically got "too fucking bad".
I only showed up 20 minutes before opening for the cheap hard drives and RAM so it didn't affect me, but still it was some serious douchebag behavior. That is why I quit going to Staples on Black Friday and instead hit Newegg and Tigerdirect online. There are enough assholes in the world without the need for me to reward douches.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I was being sarcastic and baiting the Obaaama followers.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
So his bitch is that he got $25, but not in a form that would have allowed him to "make" it $26.25 via a reward scheme at his bank.
See why he comes across like a complete douche?
Frankly, no. They offered $25, and if it wasn't a cash or cash equivalent, they should have said that on the advertisement.
Unless there's some way to cash the credit card like a check (instead of spending it), in which case I'll concede that it's a cash equivalent.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Erm, so MS would instead give out a stub program that people download in ten second and then launches, which then downloads, in the background, the ISO, and when it's downloaded burns it to a CD.
Of course, it should first check to make sure there's a CD-R in the system, and possibly even make people insert a blank CD to prove they have one. (So some fool doesn't try to use an AOL CD.)
Of course, for experts, they could have a torrent with just the ISO. (Or even use a torrent system in their downloader, and just let other people access it directly.)
It's not rocket science.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
When you buy a new house, or rent an apartment, do you really think you paid all that money just for two shiny (or not)keys, and the bathroom is superfluous, even worth nothing more than what you think two keys at the Wal-Mart should cost?
When they let me move in the house without the keys for free, then yes, the keys are what I paid the money for.
Really, grow up and stop with the gratuitous copyright-bashing. It's disingenuous, false, and naive.
He said that Microsoft should let people download the RTM before being able to use it live, but that Microsoft will never allow it because it highlights the copytight issue and makes it seem that the product is essentially free to make, distribute, share, provide or whatever, and that you are paying for the keys to unlock the free product.
The issue isn't whether or not you like copyright or those that oppose or support it. The issue is, do you think Microsoft would pre-distribute their new OS, and if not, why not? He answered that Microsoft will want to keep the perception of scarcity (you have to get it off a shelf with a finite number of boxes) and value (you get something you hold in your hand). Do you disagree with his points? Because it seems you are guessing his values and attacking him, which says nothing about what he actually said. And that makes is sound like you actually agree with him, but don't like the implications.
Learn to love Alaska
As the license cost probably already includes the price of a disk you didn't get, it seems a sorta stupid quibble.
But, more importantly, software distribution over torrent has always made more sense than straight downloading. Before anyone asserts that 'torrents are too complicated', I am, in fact, talking about a download program that does torrenting internally, not handing people a .torrent file.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
You forgot AT&T, Citibank and Capital One...
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
How about this. You use the $25 to buy groceries this week or your next tank of gas, or anything that you buy on a regular basis. If you normally pay cash, bank the cash, if you normally don't bother with cash, then its $25 less that will come out of your account when you use your bank card. Damn, what a friggin crybaby. "Wah, they didn't give me paper, but a card that I can use in place of paper anywhere I would use paper. Now I DON'T have to make a trip to the bank to deposit it. WAH!!!!"
Jesus H. Christ on crutch, you fucking kids would find something to complain about if they were giving away free blowjobs. I'm not that old, but the whining of the entitlement generations (gen x and later) really starts to grate.
BG&E has not been regulated by the government in a quite a while.
Except if you really wanted windows 7 you have had ample opportunities to pre-purchase it at a significant discount. You can even preorder it now for $30 if you have an education domain email. And if you don't want to do that you can always get an OEM copy from newegg with a floppy cable. The only people who pay those obscene prices are people who buy it at Best Buy, and hell if they are doing that they might as well add on the "Best Buy extended warranty" and $5 disc protection as well. The people who want windows for cheap can get it for cheap, the rest are happy to subsidize us by paying the inflated prices. And if you're on this website and use windows, its probably because you need software that runs on windows, many of which dwarf the cost of the OS. Cubase 5 education edition is going to run me $300 and surely it is less complex and requires less development and patching than an OS.
When I see people do that, I think they are Scott Adams fans. Scott Adams has said things like trying to reduce oil usage to reduce one's personal funding of evil oil cartels is stupid and useless. He used the word fungible. Interestingly, in doing so, he revealed why one shouldn't turn to cartoonists for economic issues, but that didn't stop plenty of people now thinking that if you say "fungible" and could be confused with making a valid point, that you win. Dogbert was wrong in the cartoon. Scott Adams doesn't understand fungible. And now, most people that use that word don't get it right either.
For those interested, reducing demand, even for a fungible item, should also decrease the price. Thus, Dilbert's stated goal of reducing money funding terrorism (presuming buying oil from somewhere funds terrorism, a point apparently conceeded in the original cartoon) would be achieved by buying a Prius. Reduction of demand in oil will be what reduces demand (and thus the funding). Also, Dilbert was an idiot (calculated to be by Scott Adams so he could make his idiotic point) when he said he wanted to decrease foreign imports to prevent terrorism. If he'd just said "to strengthen the Dollar" or "prevent trade imbalances" or "because I don't like foreigners" or something other than "because I don't like the foreigners that receive money" then there's be no comeback, as reducing local demand of a fungible product will decrease imports, which was his stated goal. He had to get "tricked" (I put that in quotes because it is a fiction invented by Scott Adams, who is trying to trick the reader with Dilbert's stupidity) into some other point after his first "reduce imports" because reducing imports is a good thing for an economy like the US which is heavy in imports already. I'm guessing that Scott Adams just thinks that people that buy Priuses are silly, and corrupted the use of the word fungible for a laugh at their expense, dooming the word "fungible" to abuse by myopic Internet users without a grasp of economics.
And in your case, he was saying that money is fungible, so $25 in pennies is the same as $25 on a credit card, which is the same as $25 in your checking account. However, we know that "fungible" (in the sense as equal in all practical ways) isn't the same as reality. I can't carry $25 in pennies in my pants pocket (well, maybe you can, but that's about 25 lbs of pennies and even if my pockets were of sufficient size, I'm not sure the stitching would hold out) and not everywhere takes credit or checks. So, though economically equivlelent (and thus the fungible the GP was refering to), they aren't practically equivelent (and thus not fungible). And even then, the GP was wrong, at least until you can take that $25 card and deposit it as $25 with no fees into your bank account.
Learn to love Alaska
It's most likely going to get hacked. Then pirates can leech the file directly off of Microsoft's servers rather than getting a dubious copy from a file sharing site? Yeah, that's sounds like a profitable plan for Microsoft.
Dell. You may have to call, rather than using the web order form, but I always get my media with Dell.
Learn to love Alaska
I think they mean that with technologies like cars, the costs are much more apparent, whereas with software, they are much more hidden to the average user. And there's plenty of free software out there, you can't say the same about cars of course. Software "feels" less tangible than cars. And it's so easy to copy software and media (movies, music, PDFs) that their value doesn't appear to stack up the value of a physical item that you can actually hold in your hands.
From the post I replied to:
"even the simplest minded consumer will put together that all they really paid for was that key and the other stuff costs really nothing"
Yep, that is still as dumb as a blade of grass.
And then you say:
"So they make people think they are paying for a DVD, manual and box in addition to the software."
Um, if you go to the store/buy online/send in the coupon, and they send you back a DVD, manual, and box, then yep, you *did* pay for that stuff. And the key. Your point was, again? Microsoft has far more serious flaws than their distribution models.
Modding me 'Troll' is a poor excuse for 'disagree'. But I can take it.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
the Microsoft Academic Alliance (MSAA)
Actually, it's the MSDN Academic Alliance (MSDNAA), and I got XP, Vista, and Visual Studio 2005 back when I was in college... of course, they don't give you Word. You have to pay for Word...
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Take it you didn't bother to actually read the rebate offer or the price tag which both make mention of it being a visa debit card?
I sent in four mail-in rebates for various computer parts after I built my new desktop. None of them mentioned getting the rebate in the form of a Visa.
One (from eVGA) came as a check.
Two (from Thermaltake and OCZ) came as Visas.
I haven't received my rebate from Samsung yet.
It seems this is an increasingly common practice. (Thermaltake and OCZ both used a third party rebate processing company, Worldwide Rebates, to handle the rebate.) I'm not sure I understand. Surely it's cheaper to mail out checks than to pay a third party to mail out Visas (which is of course a fourth party)?
It's not for anyone and everyone, but organizations with volume licensing and software assurance agreements on older Windows desktop OSes have been able to download Win 7 from Microsoft Eopen since RTM.
That's better than what Safeway does. They grossly inflate their prices unless you get their store card (they advertise the lower price); when you get the card, they only give you one, so if I go in without it (i.e. if my wife has it) I don't get the lower prices, and although you can supposedly just enter your phone number instead, it has been nearly six months and they still haven't entered anything into their computer systems. One Safeway employee told me that they mail those forms to California once a month (read: once a year?), where they are ever so slowly processed (probably by a drunk, blind monkey).
Eventually, one employee gave me another Safeway card without me having to fill out a second form, so at least I pay the lower prices now, but if I had any other grocery store within a reasonable distance I'd stop going to Safeway.
They still might charge you a handling charge. If you look at this week's Staples flyer, they put their Vista PCs on clearance, with a free upgrade to Windows 7..... but then the fine print says you have to pay shipping and handling to get it. Great.
Staples is not an honest company.
Staples isn't honest? What, and Microsoft is?
The last two times I had to call in (last year?), I didn't have to talk to a real person. I just used the automated system and I had it activated in less than five minutes. (Another time, I only had to call because their entire online activation system was down, and they couldn't do it over the phone either, I just had to wait.)
Dear Anonymous Coward,
We, the real Slashdot community, are perfectly capable of making those sort of decisions on our own. You are not the Slashdot community. You are unwanted. Go away.
Posting as myself only to prove that I'm not commodore64_love.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
But Windows runs my apps and works with my hardware better ;)
Nothing is free. You may well have paid $0 for Windows now, but they'll be calling for their pound of flesh later on, don't worry. That's why those of us who are not students get to pay zillions for Office and Windows, effectively subsiding those who are just in the early stages of being weaned onto the Microsoft drugs.
Parallels doesn't come with Windows. And it can run any x86 operating system. It's not "for Windows" any more than VMWare is. (On the other hand, both have "extensions" for hooking Windows into OS X. For copy/paste, for example)
After all, I am strangely colored.
I was not so lucky, after wasting my time with the automated system, I had to talk to the "real" people, because I had replaced defective motherboards in several machines.
grep -iw skynet
>Then you buy your key digitally with a steam-like system
I dont understand why MS just doesnt let people download the ISO and use their already existing Vista key. Sure, they cant know which ones were bought after June, but they can take a guess and do us a favor.
I forsee a lot of these upgrades needing reinstalls when Joe User crams it full of malware, but with the key lost somewhere in his email. Unless this key comes with a sticker to put on the case, its useless. Just let them use their Vista license. Heaven forbid, MS throw anyone a bone now and again.
That's the same argument that stores used to justify giving someone an in-store credit instead of the promised rebate, and they got smacked for that, too.
"Well, you obviously shop here, so just use the fucking rebate on your next purchase and quit being such a crybaby and you'll have an extra $25 exactly like we promised you and..." Um, NO. It doesn't work that way. You promise someone $25, well, $25 credit is not the same thing.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
>>>Jesus Christ. You weren't "entitled" to the $25 off. It might have affected your choice, but the company was attempting to entice you... Cry us a fucking river.
Yeah you're right. And a few years ago when my ex-employer JCPenney was caught by the Texas General Attorney charging $19.99 for an item advertised at 9.99, that's exactly what they should have told him - "We were just trying to entice you to make a purchase. We're not expected to honor the price with an actual dollar discount. Here's a ten dollar coupon and shut up Mr. Texas AG." Instead they let themselves get fined. SUC80RS!
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Blah blah blah. Any application of lame "Fixed that for you" jokes will be "[insert lame threat here]".
Fixed that for you
Um... okay. Well it's still damned inconvenient to spend this VISA card, since I have to worry about when/where/how I'm going to use a card before it expires. A $25 check would have been easier, because I can just dump twenty-five dollars in my wallet or savings account and forget it.
Customer service sure has gone to shit in 2009. NBC talked about that in regards to bank accounts raising fees, or stores refusing to take returns. It must be the result of companies tightening their belts.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Seriously, what is UNGODLY about what they charge for their product? You spend more in a MONTH on cable TV than what it costs to buy Vista Super Premium.
I do? Funny, I don't even have cable...
And don't give me the "It's expensive because it doesn't work" BS. If it doesn't work, don't buy it.
SWEET. We agree. I don't "buy it".
The CFA Institute specifically warns against using Excel for financial computation. And there's a good reason for that. It does work, until an undocumented feature (like mis-used financial language in function names, like conflating kurtosis and excess kurtosis) bites you in the ass and you end up under-reporting risk, or worse.
Any CFA worth his salt is capable of writing his own financial calculator. And he or she ought to. If they don't understand programming, Logo is a good start. It is a Lisp, after all, and quite capable of the statistical modeling a manager or executive officer needs.
So what do I need Excel for? To communicate with "business" people who don't have a clue? People who slept through statistics and don't understand risk? The business community is far better off without these schmucks.
Personally, I run one of each (Win,Mac,Ubuntu) at my house, and i have no problem with the cost i need to pay for Windows or mac. Different tools for different uses.
Fair enough. I've got a 24 inch iMac, and a couple of machines (including a netbook and multiple "servers") running Arch linux. Deploying my environment to a new machine is as simple as un-tarring a package, and running a small program I wrote. And I use my deployment script every few months, as I add boxes to a "cluster" for a project.
Certainly, different tools for different uses. And I have little use for a Windows machine. At most, I'd be interested in learning F# and LINQ. But why bother when there's Haskell and Scheme? (Admittedly, neither one "does" what LINQ does. But there's definitely monadic data store modules for Haskell and Scheme.)
>>>The last thing I want is Comcast controlled by the government. Government has no business in private Market.
Agree 100%, except in cases of monopolies like the electric company, natural gas company, phone company, or..... the internet company. Until such time as the Comcast monopoly is broken with 3 or 4 other alternatives, the government has every right to control it, in order to prevent the kind of abuses found in this blog - http://comcastissue.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2007-02-01T08%3A27%3A00-07%3A00&max-results=7
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
>>>Disney could keep "Steamboat Willie" copyrighted forever - 1 day
Nooooo! The world would be a lot better place if Steamboat Willie, Merry Melodies, and other early projects fell into the public domain. Then at least we could see these early works. When "It's a Wonderful Life" was under copyright the movie was largely forgotten, but then it fell into the public domain so television stations of the 70s and 80s started playing it (because it was basically free), and it went from obscurity into popularity. Now with the copyright restored, the movie is once again falling into obscurity.
The art world is best served by allowing works to be public domain and accessible, not locked behind a door.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
>>>ranting about socialism in Ayn Rand's terms.
Wow. Thomas Jefferson must have got a sex change. He's the person I quote most often. I've never even read Ayn Rand's stuff.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Go to grocery store Buy exactly $5 worth of items Get $20 cash back
Windows has traditionally been about receiving the product.
This has been true of much of Microsoft's product line, thanks to Bill Gates' philosophy on software.
"We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
I agree that the world would be better if copyrights just expired. But I also know that's not going to happen, not as long as Disney has enough money to buy legislators. So I'm after the next best thing - let most copyrights expire, and sadly expect that a little garbage like "Steamboat Willie" is going to happen.
When was the copyright restored on "It's a Wonderful Life"? To whom?
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Given that Disney has ads about the "Disney Vault" and does active marketing about artificial scarcity, you can take a guess as to where they'd rather keep their works.
I have several price cards for each store, all of them with made-up names, addresses and phone numbers. When I forget or lose a card I just ask for a new one. I've never had to wait for a card and only once was I asked to show ID -- and refused and still got the card immediately.
At work we swap the cards around so I don't even know who physically applied for the card in the first place.
The point of these cards are to gather, mine and sell demographic data on a level that credit reporting agencies aren't allowed to report, all in an effort to maximize pricing and drive targeted marking. Research shows that consumers don't like targeted marking and considers such practices an invasion of privacy. I can personally vouch for being annoyed at receiving check-out reminders that I haven't bought any feminine napkins in a while and might be running low -- several months after divorcing my ex-wife!
--- A man with a briefcase can steal more money, than any man with a gun. [Don Henley]
And you fly off the handle at any perceived "attack" on copyrights.
Yup. You're a copyright zealot.
FYI, Microsoft already follows this model (with Office, which is Microsoft's other main cash-cow).
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/products/FX100487411033.aspx?pid=CL100571081033 (weird URL, but it points to the Office dowload page - explicitly mentions that it's a trial copy, but it's fully functional within the time limit and all you need to do to unlock it is enter a license key).
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Different schools (or at my university, different departments) decide for themselves how they want to handle MSDNAA accounts (or whether they even want to have them).
However, for all students and for free, there's DreamSpark (https://www.dreamspark.com/default.aspx) which interestinly enough doesn't carry Win7 (client) but has Win Server 2008 R2 (the server build of the same OS, which offers considerably more features at the cost a few home-user type things like Media Center).
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Actually if you call their 800 rebate number, they will send you a cheque/check. It may take a few extra days, but you get the rebate in the format you want. Plus you force them to spend a little more.
Yes, you're right, the manufacturing cost of a "Key" is miniscule. Guess what, it's just like the cost of building a car... The nerve of car companies covering design and R&D costs and they expect to cover the costs of marketing their product in the sales price!? Well, that's outrageous!
Every product has hidden costs embedded into the price
I would like to hammer that thought into the head of every geek who thinks he is entitled to his free movie fix - even when the production costs alone for a film like Wall-E or The Dark Knight can easily top $185 million.
Um... okay. Well it's still damned inconvenient to spend this VISA card, since I have to worry about when/where/how I'm going to use a card before it expires. A $25 check would have been easier, because I can just dump twenty-five dollars in my wallet or savings account and forget it.
Customer service sure has gone to shit in 2009. NBC talked about that in regards to bank accounts raising fees, or stores refusing to take returns. It must be the result of companies tightening their belts.
ADD much? Oh look, a chicken!
--- A man with a briefcase can steal more money, than any man with a gun. [Don Henley]
(Well, almost. I have had a couple of rare ones at the $25 level. But they were almost free.)
On which card are you still getting 5% back on groceries, all the time? (One of them that advertises a lot 'rotates' the cash back option, so that's not good for me.) The card that I had that used to be 5% back on gas & groceries went down to 2% a couple of years ago.
$17 is a small amount to pay when considering the "total cost of ownership"... that will be much more.
The Ubuntu guys can ship a DVD out to you, and their cost is under a dollar.
I don't see why a big OEM can't manage the same.
I was juts asked for 35 EURO by HP for teh upgrade LOL free upgrade ?!!!!!!!!!!!! Shopping Cart * Model Name: 6930p Operating System Edition: Windows 7 Professional 32 bit â 34,90 Total: â 34,90
go fuck yourself you fucking bitch.
do you really think you have any right to set the price that someone else should charge for their labors? how big headed of you. if you have a problem with it don't use the product. you have no right to decide for someone else. and you're still a bitch.
Yea, I do work at Staples and I agree it SHOULD be mentioned in the ad and I can only guess as to reasons its not (Ads are made way before the sale so possibly the rebate "terms" arent settled yet, its copy and pasted, or there's no legal requirement to list on the ad how it comes back IANAL) however the sales tags AND the rebate form both list if its a visa debt card. Also, many banks will let you cash these cards out (how I dont know since its against the terms of the card) but I've been told this by quite a few customers who know how to work the system. Frankly, I'll be damn happy when rebates are done away with period. its just a way for companies to make money off all the customers who never send them in or companies that just flat out deny for the dumbest reasons (how you didnt copy the upc in color? so sorry...fuck off) and it makes my life more complicated doing my job.
You're missing the point, I don't think the GP was claiming that your money only pays for a key...he was suggesting that Microsoft's reluctance to offer their product for digital download, followed by the purchase of a key, is the possibility that it would lower the perceived value of the product. It doesn't take a degree in psychology to realize that a person may perceive the thing that they are purchasing to be the item that they get when they hand over their money. If they perceive that they are simply purchasing a random looking key, at some level they may have buyer's remorse or feel let-down. If they get a shiny box with a case and a DVD, or at least a big file to download, they may feel a little bit better about their purchase.
OK, I haven't paid for satellite or cable in a while.
Oh, don't let that stop you from spouting shit though. Clearly you don't let the truth get in your way. You have established yourself as such a pillar of facts, I am not even going to bother reading the rest of your comment.
Large volume license. Home Use Rights is included in Select and Enterprise agreements at no additional charge (so, for all intents and purposes, free).
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
So Blizzard Downloader then?
Anyway, the main problem there is the ISPs and their mentalities - if Microsoft distributed Windows 7 via torrent, most people would be waiting 35 years for their^CONNECTION RESET.
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
Alright, let's take a look at the competition.
Quad-core Mac Pro
- 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel processor
- 3GB DDR3 RAM
- 640GB hard drive
- NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 with 512MB GDDR3
Cost: $2,500
Does this cost $2500 to produce? Alright, now that we've got the obvious comparison out of the way, let's look at some other things that, once built, are very cheap to maintain. However, they do spend money on adding/renewing infrastructure (like how Microsoft spends money making/updating OSes), R&D, and *gasp* make a profit.
- Utility companies (water, electric, sewers)
- Telephone company (landline and cellphone)
- ISPs
- Game companies
- Movie companies
- Music companies
- Basically all entertainment companies
- Museums
- Theater and plays (once you get the props, what else do you have to pay for? We're ignoring the fact that we have to pay the actors, because we ignored that Microsoft has 93,000 employees...)
$150 for a family 3-pack is nice abusing a monopoly. If there's anything that Microsoft is gouging on it's their massive, unbelievable price tag for business licenses and support for businesses running Windows on hundreds of PCs.
It wouldn't be the first time a company forgot to mention something in their ads. At my local grocery store they advertised "Buy 4 Edys ice cream quarts, and get $4 back instantly." When I arrived they said it was a mistake and I'm supposed to get a $4 *coupon* not 4 dollars.
Where are you located? In California, supermarkets are supposed to eat the pricing mistakes they make (since they've been caught too many times lowering their prices for special sales, but not updating their electronic database at their checkout counters fast enough). Thought, don't count on the checkout cashier knowing this, you usually have to escalate the issue to the store manager (and if the store manager doesn't comply, you should write to a governmental agency, I just forget which).
The CFA Institute specifically warns against using Excel for financial computation.
I was just looking through the jobs listings at CFA, and all of their positions require a working knowledge of Excel. Funny that.
Microsoft does actually put "everything" online. Maybe you've heard of MSDN? However, most people don't buy an MSDN subscription nor do they buy their copy of Windows directly from Microsoft.
Just because the CD/DVD is infested with DRM does not mean it's not easily circumvented. (because it is.)
I don't know how Blizzard does it.
The example I know of is GetRightToGo, which my company uses to hand people a stub program which will then download a larger installer to launch. It can do torrents if you set up a torrent.
It can even do torrents and capped straight download, at the same time, so you can say 'This person can download from us at 50k a second, and download at whatever speed via the torrents.'. (My company does not use the torrent feature, though, so I just know what the documentation says.)
It would be nice if MS would start doing this, and then show up in Congress talking about how ISPs need to stop overcommitting their network and randomly restricting services because of that.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
Microsoft (or whoever) could use the Pirate Bay to distribute their stuff. The Pirate Bay doesn't charge anything, and they do not impose any restrictions on how much people are allowed to download.
Installed the Bubblemon yet?
They've already downloaded the system for free, and now they'd be paying several hundred dollars for a code to unlock it. At that point even the simplest minded consumer will put together that all they really paid for was that key and the other stuff costs really nothing (which has always been the case, but it's not been so obvious).
Actually it's the second copy of Windows 7 that costs 'nothing'*: the first one costs tens of millions in research and development. Someone has to pay that bill.
Unfortunately, they are trying to pay that bill and garner vast profits, but that's capitalism for you.
* I'm no apologist for monolithic corporations, but it's moronic to assert zero distribution costs online (who pays for the server and the bandwidth?) and extrapolate from that to the product itself having a value of zero.
the computer they quit using when they bought the mac
I wouldn't be so sure. This article claims that a lot of switchers still keep their old PC in service.
What if the car you previously purchased was a lemon, as well as the previous OS (Vista)? Why should you pay yet again for what amounts to turd polish? Your thinking will keep you in the cubical.
If you want (New Product), the fact that you didn't actually like (Old Product) is irrelevant. If you didn't like Vista, and don't want to pay for Windows 7... get a Mac. Use Linux. Help develop Herd. Try out ReactOS. Stay with XP. YOU HAVE OPTIONS. Also, it's spelled "cubicle", and it sounds like you're angry for still being in one.
Just wondering what would be the cheaper option to provide in terms of pricing? a very large multi-gigabyte download or mailing a dvd? Mailing the dvds probably cost them a couple bucks so they are making a tidy profit if they charge $17. A blank dvd disc is cheap, the labor required is cheap, and the postal service is not too expensive. But I am not familiar with the costs associated with hosting the file online.
No, not free - included in the price of the licence, which is not insignificant (I've done my fair share of volume licence purchasing - £200,000 plus per round). Plus the home use rights come with a postage and packing charge - you give your staff a token with which they order their home use copy, you don't supply the software yourself.
When I bought a Dell Dimension XPS 200n back in 1996, it came with Windows NT 3.51 and a free upgrade to Windows NT 4.0 when it was released. One day, I just received the CD-ROM in the mail! It's unfortunate that they've now changed their policies when most people would be just fine with a simple cardboard mailer and be done with it.
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
Just buy something from yourself and use PayPal to pay for it. Then use the Visa debit card as payment.
Or maybe, oh I dunno, try going to a bank and see if they will just transfer the cards balance to your account?
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than have to have a frontal lobotomy."
buy something from yourself and use PayPal to pay for it. Then use the Visa debit card as payment.
Unacceptable. Someone buying me $25 worth of stuff is not the same as them giving me $25. Stores tried that with giving customers in-store credit instead of cash on rebates – they got the same amount of value, so what's the big deal, they figured? They found out it doesn't work that way.
You want to give someone credit, that's fine; but you have to say up front that you'll give them credit. If they told me what I'd get, I wouldn't have anything to complain about.
try going to a bank and see if they will just transfer the cards balance to your account
That would be acceptable if it can be done, but can you do it?
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
I'm not sure about how the banks would handle it as I've never tried it.
My idea for PayPal was to just "purchase" something from yourself like from a second PayPal acct. and use the Visa debit card to pay for nothing really and the funds would get transferred to your real PayPal acct. where they can be withdrawn or transferred to the account attached to your PayPal acct.
I've no idea what PayPal would charge to handle the transaction though :(
Just some ideas I got while reading the other posts.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than have to have a frontal lobotomy."
My idea for PayPal was to just "purchase" something from yourself like from a second PayPal acct. and use the Visa debit card to pay for nothing really and the funds would get transferred to your real PayPal acct. where they can be withdrawn or transferred to the account attached to your PayPal acct.
Ah. That could work, but as you said, there might be a transaction fee.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.