DS Flash Carts Deemed Legal By French Court

Hatta writes with a snippet from MaxConsole: "Nintendo has today lost a major court case against the Divineo group in the main court of Paris. Nintendo originally took the group to court over DS flash carts, however the judge today has ruled against Nintendo and suggested that they are purposely locking out developers from their consoles and things should be more like Windows where ANYONE can develop any application if they wish to."

Comments

Excellent.

[Seriousity]

This is a precedent I approve of, and would like to see the trend continue in the consoles market - if we make access to the tools easier for game devs, we'll end up with better games... win-win so far as I can see.

Re:Excellent.

[gzipped_tar]

AFAIK French legal system doesn't use this "precedence" the same way you USAers do.

Re:Excellent.

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Wider availability of development tools will allow more developers to develop, that doesn't mean that the games ecosystem will be automatically better.

There may be more games out there, but the ratio of crap vs gold will still be the same.

Re:Excellent.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true by a long shot.

The entire reason that Nintendo is so selective in which games it licenses is because of the flood of games that came out for all consoles in the 80s, and the video game crash shortly after. Companies like Quaker Oats were actually trying to publish games. The market became so over-saturated with games that the public became disgusted with them.

When nintendo finally released the Famicom in the US they had to market it as a home computer rather than a video game system due to the negative connotations that 'video game' still had. You'll notice that every legitimate game that came out for nintendo and super nintendo ( I stopped looking after that) came with the nintendo seal of approval. That's because they started making certain that only reputable publishers were releasing games for their system, to keep their reputation intact. There's a lot more about it if you search for the video game crash of 1983 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_video_game_crash_of_1983

Opening up the console to anyone who wants is definitely not guaranteed to increase the quality of games. In fact, history tells us that the exact opposite will happen. But hey, who knows! History doesn't repeat itself all that often, right?

Re:Excellent.

[ClosedSource]

As someone who actually was part of the video game crash, let me offer you a different perspective. If Atari had been able to legally keep out competitors, the best Atari 2600 games would never have seen the light of day.

The tactic that Nintendo eventually used had been considered by the industry earlier, but was not adopted because it was thought to be illegal. That's the way it should have stayed.

Re:Excellent.

[Anonymous Coward]

The tale about a glut of games causing the crash fails the litmus test when you look at computer games. Anyone can develop, no fees required. Hasn't ruined PC gaming.

Re:Excellent.

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone can develop, no fees required. Hasn't ruined PC gaming.

DRM and unreasonably high system requirements, on the other hand...

Re:Excellent.

[Miamicanes]

> The market became so over-saturated with games that the public became disgusted with them.

Not quite. At the lowest point after the crash, members of the public were no less enthused about them than they were a year or two earlier. It was MERCHANTS who wouldn't touch videogames with a dirty twenty-foot pole, let alone sell them.

I've noticed that the perception that videogames "died" after "the crash" is strongest among people who were already adults when it happened. For those of us who were in middle school, the "crash" was an irrelevant abstraction. We got C64s, then Amigas, and were largely oblivious to the perception that videogames had somehow "gone away". Most of us had more games than we knew what to *do* with, and probably had more game discs laying on the floor around our beds than the total number of unique game cartridges for the Atari 2600, Intellivision, Atari 5200, Odyssey 3, *and* Colecovision that had ever existed since the dawn of the videogame era. If videogames went away in 1983, someone forgot to tell us ;-)

Re:Excellent.

[Jarjarthejedi]

A 100:1 ratio of junk to gold with 100 games on the market is a far different environment than a 100:1 ratio of junk to gold with 1,000,000 games on the market. In the first case there's only 1 good game out there, in the second there's 1000. Same ratio, far different result. All you need is the ability to ferret out those gold game from the junk, which is entirely possible, and then the more games on the market (with the same or better ratio) the better.

Re:Excellent.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure you're quite aware of what these companies are up against.
http://www.giantbomb.com/robert-pelloni/72-90348/
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/02/06/nintendo-denies-official-ds-developer-status-to-bobs-game-cre/
Though it's an extreme example.

And even with "full throated" support, well, Microsoft XNA hasn't produced anything more exciting than the PSP homebrew community, which has been a sales driver of PSPs for years.

Re:Excellent.

[Anonymous Coward]

I certainly agree that it may not have been the best course of action, but it was an effective defense against the flood of bad games that were unprofitable. It's definitely a good example of a company clinging to a possibly obsolete business practice, but I wanted to illustrate that there was a very good reason for Nintendo to take this stance, and it has worked well for them over the years. In fact, I think they're still around.

Re:Excellent.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, except that 1% of 1 million is 10000. The problem is that people have only so much money to spend on games, so 10x as many good games would probably be fine, 10000 and the revenue per game drops too much to pay development costs.

Re:Excellent.

[LordVader717]

The tactic that Nintendo eventually used had been considered by the industry earlier, but was not adopted because it was thought to be illegal.

That seems unlikely considering that it actually took a court battle to have 3rd party games deemed legal, The NES was one of the first examples of DRM technology ever.

Re:Excellent.

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Given that gamers are now largely in their 20's and 30's, money is no longer the big issue

The big issue is time. When games are 40 and 50 hour magnum opuses, it says a lot.

A bigger issue with time is online. when games like Borderlands and Modern Warfare 2 are largely geared for online play, you can't just simply put one down and pick up the other later and get the same experience.

Re:Excellent.

[mwvdlee]

Have you ever played DS games?

Most are crap, from both a production value standpoint and a playability standpoint.

Nintendo's licensing program does nothing to prevent bad games being sold for it's platform.

Mostly it's just meant to keep applications from the market which could hurt Nintendo's bottom line, like, for instance, flash carts. Same way that Apple does with their iPhone.

Re:Excellent.

[mwvdlee]

I agree with your point, but should mention that when people talk about the "game crash", they usually refer to the gaming-only consoles, not general purpose computers.
Computers have never died, and whenever there's a computer, there's games.
Also, to the best of my knowledge, when talking about sales figures, videogames in general did indeed take a major blow.

We're currently in a financial crash, but that doesn't mean that money no longer exists or that there are no millionaires or even billionaires any more.

Re:Excellent.

[ClosedSource]

"That seems unlikely considering that it actually took a court battle to have 3rd party games deemed legal"

I don't know what court battle you refer to, but there were many 3rd party games sold openly in stores long before the NES came along.

Re:Excellent.

[cgenman]

This is not a question about making more accessible tools for game developers. This is about turns the entire console game development economic model on end.

Of Course Nintendo is trying to "lock out" developers as the French court suggested. Console manufacturers survive by being the gatekeepers between developers and the public. In other words Nintendo (and Sony and Microsoft) make their money by taking a cut of each game sold. What do they do with this money? Well...

1. Raw promotion of the console and the games.
2. Fund experimental games that fill niches in the console market. Sony is legendary for this. Nintendo too, except they seem to make tons of money off their experimental games.
3. Reduce the initial cost of the system, as a lower barrier to entry.
4. Fund the proper development tools that developers get.
5. Fund console development.
6. I believe a cut also goes to IBM, nVidia, and other chip developers to cover their costs.

The thing is, people *have* tried making consoles the "Windows Way," where anyone could develop for it. They're all dead, and only the most die-hard have even heard of them. Why? Because they were bloody expensive, the console makers didn't have enough money to properly develop the hardware, there wasn't a developer toolchain of which to speak, and nobody had the 100m in promotion that any new console launch requires.

If you want a console developed in a totally open fashion, buy a desktop PC with TV out. Is that too expensive / don't want to deal with the troubles of hardware compatibility, etc? Well, that's just some of the hassles that an open console would have. I'm not saying that the current totally locked down model is the right way to go (Apple is currently experimenting with something inbetween with the app store). But that the market has spoken, and consoles with a monolithic vision holder are doing rather well compared to the alternatives.

Re:Excellent.

[hairyfeet]

While i agree with what you said (I had a VIC20 at the time. remember the ads with the Shat?) I would say that what caused the "crash" more than anything was the same shit that caused the Dotbomb-pure greed. I remember stores lining their shelves with every. single. 2600 cart they could get their little hands on, with visions of $$$ in their eyes. The stores were literally piled high with so many different games from so many different companies that there was simply no place to go but down.

And while it was bad for the retailers, that got stuck with all these carts from fly by night game developers that they couldn't return, for the video game players it was a bonanza. At one point I was getting NEW Coleco carts for 20 CENTS each, and Atari carts at 10 for a dollar on the ones that they couldn't send back. Sure most of the games weren't great (for the 2600, the Coleco games were pretty good) who couldn't get 10 cents worth of value out of an Atari cart? Hell if nothing else they made good door jams or skeet.

So I'd say it was investor stupidity, with every store that could get their hands on them loading up on carts, just like you could get crazy money in the late 90s just by having .com in your name.

Re:Excellent.

[MemoryDragon]

Heck different times, the PC has been open since 1982, did it hurt the game quality, no.
Back then games were rather cheap to produce, all you needed was one person. Nowadays it is almost impossible for a single person to do a decent game. The people also are more educated about games, so the market has split into high profile/independend/ and hobbyist releases at least on the PC.

The consoles are picking up those developers slowly they have not covered yet with their markets and lower entry barriers, Nintendo was again the last to grasp this, probably they have not gotten it entirely despite wiiware.
The handhelds will be next to open themselves, no matter what, Nintendo wont have an easy run with their next gen handheld, like they had with this generation, this time the biggest competitor will be the mobile phones.
It will be for Nintendo either open up or give up!

Re:Excellent.

[MindlessAutomata]

I doubt that.

Right now, anyone can publish games for the PC platform. And there's a shit load of them, many mediocre, some not. That doesn't really hurt the PC market. Right now, Nintendo is filled with shovelware with the Wii (and I own a Wii and no other current-gen consoles, so I am allowed to say that).

The reason Nintendo took the stance it did was so it could profit more by charging companies $$$ to win its seal of approval. Nintendo wouldn't directly profit off 3rd party games. If the companies have to seek a license from Nintendo, however, then Nintendo does get a profit off of them.

The Nintendo seal of approval never protected against trash being on a Nintendo platform. Bebe's Kids is famous for how terrible it was and yet it proudly bore the Nintendo Seal of Approval.

Re:Excellent.

[agnosticnixie]

Go indie, be happy

Re:Excellent.

[selven]

But if there's only 1 good game then no one would buy a console. In this case, more is better.

Re:Excellent.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, in the case of PC gaming it was enough with a few games to ruin it.

Re:Excellent.

[StripedCow]

if we make access to the tools easier for game devs, we'll end up with better games... win-win so far as I can see.

I'm afraid that nintendo will just continue to make access for developers more difficult, but in a more obfuscated way, for example by creating an "undocumented" API, etc. Further, if I was developing software in this way, I would be constantly worried that nintendo would change some of the specs here and there, just for the purpose of bugging me and other "unregistered" developers. Everything considered, not a platform I would be happy to develop for.

Re:Excellent.

[Anonymous Coward]

Quality is subjective. I may like a game that a lot of people (specially the marketing types) think it's crap. I don't want Nintendo (or any other company) to decide what is a "good game" for me. They should let people vote with their wallets.

Re:Excellent.

[supersloshy]

Not true by a long shot.

The entire reason that Nintendo is so selective in which games it licenses is because of the flood of games that came out for all consoles in the 80s, and the video game crash shortly after. Companies like Quaker Oats were actually trying to publish games. The market became so over-saturated with games that the public became disgusted with them.

When nintendo finally released the Famicom in the US they had to market it as a home computer rather than a video game system due to the negative connotations that 'video game' still had. You'll notice that every legitimate game that came out for nintendo and super nintendo ( I stopped looking after that) came with the nintendo seal of approval. That's because they started making certain that only reputable publishers were releasing games for their system, to keep their reputation intact. There's a lot more about it if you search for the video game crash of 1983 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_video_game_crash_of_1983

Opening up the console to anyone who wants is definitely not guaranteed to increase the quality of games. In fact, history tells us that the exact opposite will happen. But hey, who knows! History doesn't repeat itself all that often, right?

Not quite. Haven't you seen M&M's Kart Racing? Or what about the release of Toy Story Mania for Wii? Not to mention virtually every game involving the word "We" (not Wii, We) or cute animals or exercise. Deal or No Deal for the DS isn't even random with its case selections, earning a 1 out of 10 for being a cheap cash-in. And lets not forget Elf Bowling, Homie Rollerz (what the crap is that), Ninjabread Man, and God forbid that I mention all of the terrible cash-in music games (if you can even call some of them games). I'm not even showing you the worst of them all. And yes, some games that are cash-ins aren't too bad, but when they're covering up everything that's actually worth paying 30-60 bucks for, I can easily see why the crash might happen again.

Almost forgot the Seal of Quality mentioned earlier. Earlier I can see how Nintendo cared about it, but now it just shows something is licensed. "Hey Nintendo, we want your seal on our product." "That'll be [so-and-so] dollars/yen please." As long as Nintendo's making money from it, they couldn't care less about the quality of their games (at least the 3rd-party ones. 1st-party games are still great).

Re:Excellent.

[Sloppy]

the ratio of crap vs gold..

..is irrelevant. Total units of gold is the only thing that matters.

Re:Excellent.

[Sloppy]

The market became so over-saturated with games that the public became disgusted with them.

Wrong. The public was delighted. If a few people ended up buying games they didn't like, that just taught them to read reviews first. And now the mainstream has the internet, so it's easier than ever.

Re:Excellent.

[JeffSpudrinski]

"As someone who actually was part of the video game crash, let me offer you a different perspective. If Atari had been able to legally keep out competitors, the best Atari 2600 games would never have seen the light of day."

True, but I would remind you that not all competitors were the caliber of Activision (who actually made BETTER games than Atari).

-JJS

Re:Excellent.

[DerekLyons]

> The market became so over-saturated with games that the public became disgusted with them.

Not quite. At the lowest point after the crash, members of the public were no less enthused about them than they were a year or two earlier. It was MERCHANTS who wouldn't touch videogames with a dirty twenty-foot pole, let alone sell them.

Despite not being middle schooler anymore, you seem to have never stopped and thought that there just might be a reason why merchants wouldn't touch them after the crash.
 

I've noticed that the perception that videogames "died" after "the crash" is strongest among people who were already adults when it happened.

Which shouldn't come as a surprise as it adults (in general) who step up to the counter and fork over the cash. Which, during and after the crash, is precisely what they didn't do - and in droves. And when folks won't step up to the counter and fork over cash, merchants stop stocking whatever is they aren't buying in favor of something that they are.
 

For those of us who were in middle school, the "crash" was an irrelevant abstraction.

I assure you, that for the (tens of?) thousands of people who lost their jobs, it was not irrelevant abstraction. Nor for the retailers stuck with unsold and unsaleable merchandise.

Re:Excellent.

[ClosedSource]

You're right, but the NES restriction was of a lot more value to Nintendo than it was to consumers. In the crash people just got tired spending $40-$60 for 4K or 8K game (not the actual code size, but the limitations that went with it).

Re:Excellent.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet the PC still thrives as a game platform.

Re:Excellent.

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of us had more games than we knew what to *do* with, and probably had more game discs laying on the floor around our beds than the total number of unique game cartridges for the Atari 2600, Intellivision, Atari 5200, Odyssey 3, *and* Colecovision that had ever existed since the dawn of the videogame era.

I was 12 that year and certainly did not sleep on a pile of video games exceeding the availability of even one of those systems. Maybe we had a couple dozen carts at most. And I wasn't allowed to sleep in an orgy of carts.

Re:Excellent.

[GrBear]

If Atari had been able to legally keep out competitors, the best Atari 2600 games would never have seen the light of day.

Yet some of them shouldn't have.. like this quality title.

Re:Excellent.

[zary]

I'm sorry if i'm wrong, but we're talking about France, and I don't think that France is in North America....

Re:Excellent.

[CodeBuster]

and probably had more game discs laying on the floor around our beds than the total number of unique game cartridges for the Atari 2600, Intellivision, Atari 5200, Odyssey 3, *and* Colecovision that had ever existed since the dawn of the videogame era.

Not sure how that helps your argument that the "crash", as perceived by the adults, didn't matter. Is it possible that many of those games were exactly the crap that retailers wouldn't touch? How many times did you pick them up off the floor to replay them or were they put there after the first play precisely because they were crap?

If videogames went away in 1983, someone forgot to tell us ;-)

They didn't so much go away as go back to serving the niches they had always served. The nice thing about the C64, Amiga, IBM PC, and eventually the PCs we have today is that they allow for many niche games that, while potentially profitable, are not popular enough to justify the enormous fixed costs of console development. There have been more successful crossovers recently were a popular game appears on multiple consoles and the PC simultaneously, but I for one still prefer the PC gaming platform to consoles which I view as the McDonald's of gaming; good enough for the masses, but lacking in the sophistication and depth necessary to satisfy the more mature and demanding PC gamer audience.

Re:Excellent.

[Anonymous Coward]

They're actually are quite a few quality 3rd-party titles (most are QuareEnix or Atlus games):

Etrian Odyssey
Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon
Chrono Trigger DS
Luminous Arc
Knights in the Nightmare
Final Fantasy IV / Tactics A2 / XII: Revenant Wings
Super Robot Taisen OG Saga: Endless Frontier
Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor
Dragon Quest IV and V
N+
Space Invaders Extreme
Contra 4
Rondo of Swords
The World Ends With You
Castlevania (All 3 of them)
Lock's Quest
Professor Layton

Re:Excellent.

[QuestorTapes]

> AFAIK French legal system doesn't use this "precedence" the same way you USAers do.

You're probably correct. France's legal system is quite different from that in (most of) the USA. Louisiana still uses a lot of the French legal systems it had in place when it was a French territory.

But IIRC, the typical US legal precedent usage isn't specific to the US, but is based in the British Common Law, which is the legal system in many nations which were formerly British territories.

IANAL; I just play one on the Internet ;>

Re:Excellent.

[LordVader717]

Before Activision there were only Atari games for Atari consoles. After they settled the legal dispute it was accepted that third party games did not violate trade secrets or copyright.

The explosion of third party publishers caused Atari's grip to slip. When Nintendo came along they were aware this could happen so they included DRM.

Windows as the standard?

[houstonbofh]

When someone holds up Windows as the standard for openness that you should strive for, you have to be really messing up!

Re:Windows as the standard?

[sponga]

Hmm I wonder why they didn't mention Apple....

Re:Windows as the standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

The judge probably meant 'more like computers...'

Windows must have become a generic term for a computer over there. Just think, if this spreads Microsoft may loose their trademark.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[brxndxn]

I am usually not one to ever stick up for Microsoft.. But you HAVE to admit this is a cheap shot..

Besides free OS's, is there one more open? Mac?

Windows is infinitely more open than all the major consoles across all spectrums.. even legally. Too bad Xbox just doesn't run regular Windows..

Re:Windows as the standard?

[DigDuality]

Windows might not be Open Source and MS business practices may be something to be desired, but they are an open platform. And when you look at the platforms that were around when Windows came to light, there really wasn't much that was that successful where just anyone could develop for it. Even today, companies like Apple, Nintendo, Amazon, Sony, (the list is rather lengthy) want to sell you a solid product. They want everything to be an appliance to you, like a dvd player or your tv.. where you don't notice, nor care about the software on it. An article a while back was describing why Windows Mobile and Android will, in the long run, destroy Apple in the phone market, and in the end, it will be because of the availability of applications for them. Apple and Nintendo and Amazon and so forth, want to be the gatekeepers of software and content, and frankly.. looking at the success of MS on the desktop, that approach doesn't seem to be a successful one. Video game systems will be the last bastion of this mentality though, i can promise you that.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[ChronosWS]

Actually the XBox is also very easy to develop (XNA anyone?) The only real restrictions there are that if you want your game to go out to everyone as a full game on Live, you have to pass a certification process to ensure you abide by the rules for how apps are supposed to behave. But the tools are all there and MS does a good job of encouraging their use.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[deprecated]

"Lose," not "loose," for Christ's sake!

Re:Windows as the standard?

[xtracto]

When someone holds up Apple as the standard for openness that you should strive for, you have to be really messing up!

There, fixed that for you.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[JohnBailey]

"Lose," not "loose," for Christ's sake!

Don't be so sure. Imagine if Steve switched from chairs to pointy cornered Windows logos...Ouch..

Re:Windows as the standard?

[sopssa]

And wtf does that have to do with 'openness' of a OS?

And just so you know, there are lots of free, and even open source, development environments for Windows.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[MaximKat]

http://www.microsoft.com/express/product/ looks free from here and it's not like you are required to use VS to develop for Windows

Re:Windows as the standard?

[TangoMargarine]

While technically not Visual Studio, you can download Visual Basic/C++/C# Express Editions for free.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[Sycraft-fu]

Yep. MS doesn't really lock down Windows at least from most people's way of thinking. The only ways it is "locked down" are:

1) The source isn't available to anyone who wants it. Contrary to Slashdot beliefs, it isn't a huge secret. There are organizations like governments, universities, and such that have copies of it. However any person who wants it can't get access to it.

2) They want you to pay for every copy. You are not legally allowed to distribute it to anyone you wish, each copy of it needs to be paid for.

That is really it. Development is unrestricted. They have documentation available on how to do whatever you'd like. They also don't bind it to any given hardware or function. While there are some limits imposed by the basic design (like you need to run on an x86, x64 or IA64 processor) they have the resources for you to develop drivers for the platform of your choice.

They really don't limit you much at all, at least not from a normal user's perspective. No, they don't give you the source but if you aren't a programmer, and most people aren't then it doesn't matter at all.

Also, as a practical matter, I find many people who whine about open source really just want to not pay for software, but won't admit that is their main motivation easily.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[Jarjarthejedi]

And even as a programmer having the source to your OS isn't all that useful or needed. I've got both linux and windows machines, and I do most of my development on windows, because the end user doesn't care if your code is perfectly integrated with the source code of some distro of linux, they care if it runs on windows. And with the current trend towards cross-platform code having the OS code is only going to get less and less important to programmers.

Realistically the only people who care about having the source to their OS are in the open-source community. Your average individual, and even your average programmer doesn't care because it doesn't matter on a day-to-day basis.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[OrangeTide]

Just a side note, it is also possible for individuals who wants the Windows source code to get it. They simply have to become an MVP (most valuable professional) and be in good standing and sign a few NDAs. I consider that as any person who wants it *bad enough* can get legal access to it.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[dem0n1]

And wtf does that have to do with 'openness' of a OS?

And just so you know, there are lots of free, and even open source, development environments for Windows.

Notepad?

Re:Windows as the standard?

[Sycraft-fu]

I completely agree. I was simply pointing out that anyone who isn't a programmer automatically doesn't care because it is useless to them, and that accounts for probalby 99.99% of the population or more. You are correct that the number that care is even less than that. Not only do you have to be a programmer, but you have to have the time and the reason to wish to use the code for something before it would matter at all to you. It is an extremely limited set of people who it matters to. While there's nothing wrong with that, you can't very well then say that it is a major openness issue when it isn't available.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're complete right, Mac isn't open at all: http://opensource.apple.com/release/mac-os-x-1062/

Re:Windows as the standard?

[ookaze]

Apple and Nintendo and Amazon and so forth, want to be the gatekeepers of software and content, and frankly.. looking at the success of MS on the desktop, that approach doesn't seem to be a successful one.

This doesn't make sense. You identify loosely that Nintendo and Amazon (even Apple but that's rarely the case) are in the content business, and yet you compare it with MS on the desktop which is another market altogether. Ms on the desktop is in the technology business, which has nothing at all to do with the content business, and what works in the technology business (like vaporware) doesn't always work in the content business, like MS learned the hard way.
The XBox division of MS was a far better and far more obvious thing to compare and yet you talk about MS on the desktop.

Video game systems will be the last bastion of this mentality though, i can promise you that.

No they won't, videogames are not at all in the technology business.
And you're partly wrong anyway, Nintendo and the others don't want to be the gatekeepers of software or content, they want to maximise their customers and then keep them, which is what every business tries to do.
Being in the content business, that means gathering the most and best content around them of course. That's why they allow others to create content on their hardware, and don't chose arbitrarily who pass and who doesn't.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[Late Adopter]

Also, as a practical matter, I find many people who whine about open source really just want to not pay for software, but won't admit that is their main motivation easily.

You're kidding me, right? How can you be on Slashdot in 2009 and not at least be peripherally aware of the positives of open source beyond cost? I won't deny that cost arguments exist, but to call that the mainstream motivation for open source is a little beyond plausibility. If you just want something for free, pirate it already, the consequences are usually slim to none in the end-user world.

There are real, practical benefits to open source for the end user. Heck, I'm a programmer by trade but even I don't have the time to muck about with the source to the everyday apps I use. But the point is someone does, and everyone can download the results. Quicker bug-fixes, more compatibility and less vendor lock-in, niche features that wouldn't be profitable to implement otherwise. Just look at game engines, for one slice of the sw world, you see better and prettier versions of the Quake engines that run on every OS, you get projects like ScummVM that let you run a butt-ton of your old games.

I'm aware open source has let to some epic fails of software, and that it's not the only choice (or even the best choice) for a business trying to make a profit, but it is sincerely disingenuous to claim that just because you don't have the know-how to directly tinker with something you won't benefit from those who do.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

They really don't limit you much at all, at least not from a normal user's perspective.

Ah, yes, Microsoft freedom.

When I find a bug they want to charge me when I call to let them know.

When I upgrade my hard drive they tell me I can no longer use the software without contacting them.

Their licensing agreement says that they can share information about my computer with third parties.

When I send my colleagues a document they can't open it because they happen to have a different version of Office.

They produce standard deviant versions of software so that the web pages I write don't work on any standard compliant browsers.

If their software causes major problems, I cannot hold them responsible for consequent damages, even if they were negligent.

They won't permit me to make any improvements or install anyone else's improvements to the operating system.

They stop supporting old versions, so that not only do I have to buy another copy of Windows, but I have to buy a new computer to cope with it.

They won't let me sell my license. Not that it matters, because no-one wants it.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[MobyDisk]

Visual Studio is not the only development environment for Windows.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[GameboyRMH]

Seriously: SharpDevelop, for one.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[scharkalvin]

Not only that but the software required to develop your own windows apps (in c, c++, or C#) is a FREE DOWNLOAD from M$! Granted for free you don't get the "enterprise" version of the thing, but all you are missing is the mission critical networking stuff that only server apps need. Want to develop games or desktop windows software? Go for it!
I've used the free development packages and they are decent, with good on line documentation. The evil empire is learning......

Re:Windows as the standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

Video game systems will be the last bastion of this mentality though, i can promise you that.

Yeah, because they use the exclusivity of their systems to censor the content which is available on them, which fairly directly translates into more sales. You will never see a game with an adults only rating on such a system--because parents with lots of nice green money who happen to be technophobic will spend it on the console that does provide censorship for their children.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[Anonymous Coward]

Development is unrestricted. They have documentation available on how to do whatever you'd like.
 
Except for certain APIs and their functions.
 
  They also don't bind it to any given hardware or function.
 
Except that you need a certain monitor and video card to view certain videos or use certain software, otherwise you get a downsampled version.
 
There are more examples, these are just a few off the top of my head.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[Aphoxema]

Also, as a practical matter, I find many people who whine about open source really just want to not pay for software, but won't admit that is their main motivation easily.

Honestly that's what started it for me... I could barely afford to put a computer together but was EXTREMELY interested in them since I'd grown up my whole life with one around. There was always someone around willing to give me a copy of 98/ME/2000/whatever, but I'd heard about this "lunix" thing and that is was free.

It wasn't until years after I'd tried Caldera/Red Hat/Mandriva that I really gave a shit about F/OSS, but I really have grown into it. It's a little elitist, but I see a genuine respect for F/OSS as very mature and intelligent.

Clinging onto proprietary software for monetary gain seems so... near-sighted.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[Hatta]

Also, as a practical matter, I find many people who whine about open source really just want to not pay for software, but won't admit that is their main motivation easily.

Nobody really wants to pay for software, do they? And why should they when so much free software is superior to the closed source alternative?

Re:Windows as the standard?

[CodeBuster]

Also, as a practical matter, I find many people who whine about open source really just want to not pay for software, but won't admit that is their main motivation easily.

In my experience, many people are willing to pay something for software (the illegal street vendors prove that much), but often the asking price is simply too high. This makes legitimate software a luxury, at they very least, or simply unaffordable at worst. For example, why must Windows 7 or Mac OS cost more than $99 for a basic fully functional (non-crippled) retail version (not counting upgrades here)? If the manufacturers could hit the $99.99 or even a $49.99 price point here in the United States there would be substantially less incentive to pirate or violate the terms of the license by installing multiple copies.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[tepples]

And why should they [want to pay for software] when so much free software is superior to the closed source alternative?

Because "so much" is not "all". There are holes in the free software offerings. For one thing, drivers for some WLAN cards (e.g. Broadcom) or some flatbed scanners (e.g. Microtek). For another, video games.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[tepples]

Except for certain APIs and their functions.

As I understand it, the undocumented interfaces in Windows aren't intended to be used by user-mode applications; they're for internal use by the system software. They're the counterpart of EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL symbols in the Linux kernel. Or what were you referring to?

Except that you need a certain monitor and video card to view certain videos or use certain software, otherwise you get a downsampled version.

That's the Image Constraint Token. Choose titles published by distributors that don't use the ICT, or any sort of DRM for that matter.

Re:Windows as the standard?

[Hurricane78]

Yeah right. Go ahead and try it.

You won’t. And that is why the point still stands.

Copy Apple & Google

[Midnight Thunder]

Maybe its time that Nintendo opened up the market to game developers such as those currently targeting the iPhone and the Android platforms. Yes they will loose profits, especially when the DS is still working so well, but maybe forcing them to open up will encourage more innovation?

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[biryokumaru]

Ya, the iPhone is a great example. The DS definitely needs 500 "iFart" applications for $10 each.

*cough*

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[Darkness404]

Nintendo open? Their WiiWare approval process makes the iPhone development process look easy by comparison, especially when you realize that to be a developer you have to pay a $2,000 fee. Heck, they censored crosses in NES games!

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[CSMatt]

I would not call the iPhone platform "open" in any sense of the word. The software is proprietary, you have to use Apple's tools, and you can only distribute your application* if Apple gives you the go-ahead.

*I'm not counting jailbreaking and alternative locations here. Apple disables this kind of thing by default, so your users will be required to take extra steps that complicate things for them both now and in the future.

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[Anonymous Coward]

uh, $2,000 is nothing if you are serious about developing a game.

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[Anonymous Coward]

Implying that Nintendo's NES era censorship is still in practice today when they're currently the most lenient company in regards to censorship? That's a paddlin'.

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[Tokerat]

Nintendo locked down the original NES for quality control. Crappy games where killing the video game market (see the Atari 2600, among many others). Over time, they've gotten used to subsidizing their hardware with licensing fees as well as game sales.

Opening the platform and losing that means less R&D money and higher hardware prices. That is quite a hole they've dug for themselves, let's hope they find a way out that makes everyone happy.

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[Anonymous Coward]

It is if you're an indie developer working on a game by yourself because that's what you love to do.

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[LtGordon]

And yet $2000 is a serious barrier to entry for a small start-up or a hobbyist developer. Who says that only big name game studios produce quality games?

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[Belial6]

You really shouldn't have to even say that, as jail-breaking is just the name for modding being used on the iPhone, and the point is comparing systems that need to be hacked for development vs. systems that are open for development.

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[Belial6]

That is revisionist at best. Up until Activision started up from ex-Atari employees, all systems only had first party games. When Activision became the first third party game developer, Atari tried to sue them out of existence. Nintendo, coming after Atari, could see that third parties could make good games, and that MORE games made the system appear more attractive to consumers. They then came up with the idea of trying to use copyright and patents to force every developer to pay them a , and implemented lock out methods. Just review the library of NES games to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was not for quality control.

Crappy games did not kill the video game market. The video game market was plenty strong. The 'video game crash' is a myth. What happened was that everyone started moving to more open platforms C64. These systems had both better and worse games, but they did have plenty of games.

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[Khyber]

"Heck, they censored crosses in NES games!"

What?

Castlevania II: Simon's Quest had crosses ALL OVER THE PLACE. In fact, every Castlevania has had crosses in it, everywhere.

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[KillShill]

Jailbreaking is probably some pro-copyright term that a "PR" crony came up with.

Call it what it really is... Removing the DRM! Taking off the Digital Hand Cuffs!

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[Late Adopter]

You're missing the bigger picture: this isn't about indies, at least not for Nintendo. This is about the vast number of carts already shipping from major studios. If they don't need to license with Nintendo to legally produce those carts, they won't, and the slice of the pie Nintendo gets is severely diminished.

The iPhone development model might be a profitable direction to go, which we've seen with downloadable content systems on the consoles like XBLA and Virtual Console on the Wii. Nintendo and Microsoft are *trying* to court indie developers with those programs, so I don't think there's any resistance to the idea on their part. It's just about making sure it doesn't cut into their core business with the big studios.

The DSi is a good experiment in this regard. We'll see how well this plays out.

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[Aim Here]

Big Name Game Studios of course, silly!

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[hansamurai]

Not sure what their censorship policy of 20 years ago matters today, but an even greater barrier than the $2,000 fee is that you are required to have an actual office on business property.

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[Midnight Thunder]

I would not call the iPhone platform "open" in any sense of the word. The software is proprietary, you have to use Apple's tools, and you can only distribute your application* if Apple gives you the go-ahead.

Sure it is, like half the mobile OSs out there. The difference is that the entry cost to development is far lower and that you aren't bound by an NDA. The former allows small developers to jump in and the latter allows people to share knowledge and thus make it easier for people to develop.

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[tepples]

It is if you're an indie developer working on a game by yourself

There's nothing wrong with self-publishing on PC except the comparatively small monitor. There are a couple success stories of indies making it big on the PC and getting their work picked up by a publisher in the Nintendo ecosystem.

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[tepples]

they're currently the most lenient company in regards to censorship

Citation needed. All three console makers defer to the ESRB: they allow M and ban AO.

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[tepples]

uh, $2,000 is nothing if you are serious about developing a game.

$2,000 is nothing; it's the price of a devkit for XNA and iPod Touch: Mac mini + Parallels + Windows + Xbox 360 hardware + iPod Touch hardware + XNA Creators Club + iPhone Developer Program. The bigger hurdle is office space in a C-zone, as hansamurai mentioned.

Re:Copy Apple & Google

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet $2000 is a serious barrier to entry for a small start-up or a hobbyist developer. Who says that only big name game studios produce quality games?

Uh, the big name game studios do. Duh!

Excuse my ignorance

[Anonymous Coward]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a flash cart?

Re:Excuse my ignorance

[Zerth]

A game cartridge where the ROM is replaced with flash(and possibly other hardware) so you can put whatever code you want on it.

Used for developing and homebrew software, as well as just plain copying games.

Re:Excuse my ignorance

[Anonymous Coward]

That explains it. Thanks!

Re:Excuse my ignorance

[Gadget_Guy]

Used for developing and homebrew software, as well as just plain copying games.

Exactly, although it is the copying of games that gets the most use of these cards. The unfortunate part (for Nintendo) is that flash cartridges offer a much better experience for gamers, because you can download multiple games to one cartridge (so you don't need to carry around extra games). You also can get access to in-game menus to added functionality play in slow motion, change the screen brightness and I think even saving at any stage (although I might be wrong about that one).

Re:Excuse my ignorance

[atheistmonk]

Indeed you can (at least with my CycloDS). Seems fairly bug-free too.

Re:Excuse my ignorance

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem is the NDS GameCards come with integrated hardware encryption which is used to authenticate the cartridge as well as encrypt the data stream. Flash cards and other 3rd party NDS cards duplicate this security process.

Re:Excuse my ignorance

[Kagura]

It's like a SSD thumbstick that you buy in a store, except it plugs into the DS just like a game cartridge does, and you can put many, many games on it at once. You select the game you want to play through the flash cart's software on your DS.

I have one of these, and it's too easy to pirate games. It's really unfortunate... easy pirating is one of the things that brought Dreamcast to its doom. Maybe we'll still see Shenmue 3... :(

Re:Excuse my ignorance

[Abcd1234]

Why is that a problem? It doesn't violate any known laws, as far as I'm aware (the DMCA is concerned with cracking crypto on existing, encrypted content, *not* on creating a compatible implementation of an existing authentication system).

Re:Excuse my ignorance

[tepples]

I've read only one credible argument against the U.S. legality of homebrew hardware for the DS. The court already defused any DMCA-based arguments in Chamberlain v. Skylink and Lexmark v. Static Control, following the spirit of Sega v. Accolade. The remaining argument involves Nintendo's patent on the DS Game Card protocol.

Re:Excuse my ignorance

[DaVince21]

saving at any stage

It depends on the flash card you buy. Some can also let you insert cheats.

Vive la France libre!

[tomhudson]

If you've read the initial requirements for getting a Nintendo dev kit, you know this is a Good Thing!

Re:Vive la France libre!

[godrik]

I never thought this would happen in France. Judiciary system might not be as fucked as I thought it was.

Re:Vive la France libre!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think it's a matter of judiciary system, it's more like this particular judge in Paris seems to have half a brain. With another judge, french or not, it might have gone down differently...

Re:Vive la France libre!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah but France is as fucked up as can be. Broke and broken. Pay attention to world news and you'll see what I mean.

Apple vs. Hackintosh

[ground.zero.612]

So my big question is, how is what Nintendo does anything different than Apple with OS X and "Apple Branded" hardware?

I don't speak/read french, maybe someone who does can chime in. In France is it legal for Apple to lock OS X to Apple computers?

Re:Apple vs. Hackintosh

[Anonymous Coward]

You can buy an Apple with OS X and program on it. You can't (couldn't) do that with Nintendo.

Re:Apple vs. Hackintosh

[Hazard X]

Hackintosh seems to be more along the lines of hacked hardware to get apple software running. This is the reverse, its hacking into nintendo's hardware (admittedly hacking is limited to custom add-on hardware) to get non-nintendo software to run. Apple allows you to run whatever you want on their computers (handhelds is a different story).

Re:Apple vs. Hackintosh

[ground.zero.612]

I realize it's not the best comparison, but I think it still illustrates my point.

Why is it legal for Company A to lock down Program B to Computer C, but illegal for Company X to lock out Program Y from Computer Z?

Re:Apple vs. Hackintosh

[KillShill]

"their" computers?

Hehe, you've already lost when you believe a device sitting in your home is "theirs".

You shouldn't be really care

[ub3r n3u7r4l1st]

At least the result is right.

A famous Chinese proverb: "I don't care if it is black cat or white cat. If it catch a mouse, it is a good cat."

Re:You shouldn't be really care

[EdIII]

A famous Chinese proverb: "I don't care if it is black cat or white cat. If it catch a mouse, it is a good cat."

A true Chinese proverb: "I don't care if it is black cat or white cat. You can still pass it off as Kung Pao Chicken"

Re:You shouldn't be really care

[AliasMarlowe]

A true Chinese proverb: "I don't care if it is black cat or white cat. You can still pass it off as Kung Pao Chicken"

FYI, cat meat does not taste at all like chicken (light or dark meat). The texture and flavor of cat meat is quite different, and even a liberal dose of spices cannot mask this difference.

Re:You shouldn't be really care

[MagusSlurpy]

A famous Chinese proverb: "I don't care if it is black cat or white cat. If it catch a mouse, it is a good cat."

A true Chinese proverb: "I don't care if it is black cat or white cat. You can still pass it off as Kung Pao Chicken"

Pshaw. That's terrible. Any Chinaman worth his salt knows you don't make Kung-Pao Chicken from felines. You make General Tso's Chicken from felines!

. . .

BTW, I am really amused that Firefox tells me "Chinaman" is spelled incorrectly.

Re:You shouldn't be really care

[ztransform]

BTW, I am really amused that Firefox tells you "spelled" is spelt correctly.

Re:You shouldn't be really care

[bentcd]

A true Chinese proverb: "I don't care if it is black cat or white cat. You can still pass it off as Kung Pao Chicken"

FYI, cat meat does not taste at all like chicken (light or dark meat). The texture and flavor of cat meat is quite different, and even a liberal dose of spices cannot mask this difference.

Hence the Chinese proverb: "damn, that's the worst chicken I ever tasted!"

Re:You shouldn't be really care

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI, cat meat does not taste at all like chicken (light or dark meat). The texture and flavor of cat meat is quite different, and even a liberal dose of spices cannot mask this difference.

And you know this how?

Re:You shouldn't be really care

[Anonymous Coward]

You wouldn't be from Guangdong by any chance? Since, as the following proverb states: "Cantonese eat everything on four legs except tables and everything that flies except aircraft".

Re:You shouldn't be really care

[d34dluk3]

Uh...it is. Spelt is a cereal grain. Spelled is the verb meaning to spell.

Re:You shouldn't be really care

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, I am really amused that Firefox tells you "spelled" is spelt correctly.

I guess Firefox uses a version of OED or Webster's from the twentieth century. Blasphemy!

Re:You shouldn't be really care

[Xoltri]

So does that mean you are a cat person, or....

Re:You shouldn't be really care

[Anonymous Coward]

While I'm generally inclined to believe this (mammals and reptiles don't generally taste much alike... and yes, for the purpose of this argument, I'm classifyng birds as reptiles) is this true for all breeds of chicken? I'll go ahead and assume all domestic cats taste mostly the same, they haven't been selectively bred for culinary purposes.

Re:You shouldn't be really care

[ztransform]

Spelled is the verb meaning to spell

..only in the United States of America where English isn't a first language.

Re:You shouldn't be really care

[d34dluk3]

If you fall, do you say "I fallt"? Spelled follows the standard past verb format. Given English has so many exceptions, this isn't always a good guide, but it's a little rich to claim it's 'incorrect' based on an exception that is recognized only in your place of origin. (UK?)

Also, what do you mean by "not a first language"? Generally I take that to mean that it's not the birth language of the people, but that's obviously not the case here.

Any Application they want to?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not true that you can develop any application you want to for Windows. People who develop WGA cracks get hounded like crazy. Linux is the platform that lets you do ANYTHING.
 
Speaking of which, does anybody have a link to a working WGA crack?

Re:Any Application they want to?

[Narcocide]

Actually entities have occasionally (though it is rare) been sued by the FSF for doing "anything" with Linux; violating the GPL. I think that actually BSD is the platform that lets you do ANYTHING.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[Gadget_Guy]

People who develop WGA cracks get hounded like crazy.

Actually, it is the distribution of the WGA cracks that will get you hounded. If people only developed these cracks for their own use then Microsoft would bother trying to stop them.

Similarly, Nintendo wouldn't care about the DS flash cartridges if people only backed up games to which they physically had access, because that kind of piracy doesn't have a great impact on sales. But when the ROMs are so easy to find on the net, it has got to make them pay attention.

Mind you, DS titles feature very well in the game charts, so they still make a hell of a lot of money. It's hard to feel too sorry for the publishers.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[Anonymous Coward]

The FSF doesn't sue over GPL violations that relate to the Linux kernel. They don't have standing, as they do not hold any copyrights over that code. Now the GNU toolchain that typically lives on a Linux system - that they can sue over.

Kernel developers, however, do have standing, and hence can sue over copyright infringement.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[palegray.net]

Similarly, Nintendo wouldn't care about the DS flash cartridges if people only backed up games to which they physically had access, because that kind of piracy doesn't have a great impact on sales.

I'd say that wouldn't have any impact on sales.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps if Nintendo gave us hardware that was easier to back up, they wouldn't have these issues. I could go out, find the appropriate hardware to do so myself, but that's a lot more work than "Hey, here's a download of the ROM!" The problem of course being, where there's one ROM, there are bound to be more nearby. Then it becomes "well, one more game can't hurt..."

Re:Any Application they want to?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure!

http://www.opensuse.org/
http://www.ubuntu.org/
http://www.winehq.org/
http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxlinux/

Absolutely no WGA getting in your way! ;)

Re:Any Application they want to?

[mwvdlee]

Simple logic here;

If it has a license, it limits you in some way.
The limit may be trivial or unenforcable, but it's still a limit.

Only public domain allows you to do anything.
Well, atleast anything within the limits of law.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[mwvdlee]

How about people having to replace a cartridge because the specific damage isn't covered by warranty? Not much sales, but I dare bet it's more than "not any". Rather it'd be "not a great impact", which is coincidentally what the GP said.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[palegray.net]

I can go with that.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[Sique]

Actually entities have occasionally (though it is rare) been sued by the FSF for doing "anything" with Linux; violating the GPL.

Actually those entities have not been sued because of the type of application they developed or who they were. Those entities have been sued because they violated the license of the code they used but didn't develop themselves -- an entirely different thing.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[Gadget_Guy]

I'd say that wouldn't have any impact on sales.

When I said "only backed up games to which they physically had access" I included games that were owned by friends. This casual piracy would obviously reduce sales (especially in clusters like schools), but nowhere near to the extent allowed by being able to easily download every game every made from a stranger across the globe.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[Linzer]

If people only developed these cracks for their own use then Microsoft would bother trying to stop them.

If they did bother, I suppose they could stop them. Although of course I could care less.

[hint: in English, "not" doing something is the opposite of doing it, it's a useful word]

Re:Any Application they want to?

[Gadget_Guy]

Perhaps if Nintendo gave us hardware that was easier to back up, they wouldn't have these issues.

It's not really Nintendo's responsibility to do this. Back in the GBC and GBA days, flash cartridges came with cables to connect to PCs which enabled you to rip games. Modern DS ones don't seem to have this. They are designed to only be used with development kits and Internet download.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[ThePhilips]

Perhaps if Nintendo gave us hardware that was easier to back up, they wouldn't have these issues.

It's not really Nintendo's responsibility to do this.

That's questionable and luckily questioned constantly: why the content has to be bound to a medium?

As sole distributor of DS games they might be made responsible with direct positive impact to consumers.

As video game market widens (and we have in greater part Nintendo to thank for that), their argument that consoles are their own proprietary technology and intellectual property would be loosing weight. It is not uncommon for state to force commercial companies to open up widely used market-enabling technologies to create new markets and spur better service to customers.

P.S. Heck, even console SDK licensing is discriminatory. If somebody would sue Nintendo over opening up DS/Wii in Europe, provided the two's popularity, Nintendo would have hard time coming up with arguments why it should remain closed in face of popular pressure. Luckily for Nintendo, they should have already a licensing agreement with pretty much every publisher around the world...

Re:Any Application they want to?

[mulaz]

They don't have standing, as they do not hold any copyrights over that code

Why would they need it? If you go to the shop and buy, for example, a media/dvd/etc. player, which uses GPL code, you're entitled to get the source to the program. If the company doesnt give you the source, you could sue. Or can anyone prove me otherwise?

Re:Any Application they want to?

[GameboyRMH]

If Nintendo were smart they'd offer a full lifetime warranty on their carts - return any damaged cart and they replace it for you free, any time. Cartridges, especially DS carts, are practically indestructible. It would strengthen their frothing-at-the-mouth argument against flash carts and emulators.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[ThaReetLad]

If people only developed these cracks for their own use then Microsoft would bother trying to stop them.

If they did bother, I suppose they could stop them. Although of course I could care less.

[hint: in English, "not" doing something is the opposite of doing it, it's a useful word]

Quite so. Which is why the phrase (in english) is "I couldn't care less".

Re:Any Application they want to?

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir, are an expert in the detection of sarcasm.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[Golddess]

o.0

You - "No it wouldn't." No mod
mwvdlee - "Yes it would and here's why." No mod
You - "Oh, yeah I see your point" +1 Insightful

Re:Any Application they want to?

[epee1221]

I think the question isn't whether that action makes them liable, but to whom. If it's a violation of terms of a copyright license, I'm pretty sure (IANAL) that it's only actionable by the licensor.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[Golddess]

I could go out, find the appropriate hardware to do so myself

If you have a DS and a wifi access point, then you already have the appropriate hardware to do so yourself. Do a search for Rudolph's DS wifi backup tool. I'd provide the specific link I used, but do not have it handy at the moment. Though it is dog-slow in my experiences.

And to backup GBA games, if you've got a DS or DS Lite and a slot 1 flash card, you can use Rudolph's GBA backup tool.

Best part about both? You don't have to start over from scratch, you can copy the save file as well.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[aliquis]

Well, for just using the application they don't have to accept the license.

For changing it I guess it depends whatever the license file actually holds any legal power or not.

If they are bound to it and sorta have accepted it I guess you can sue. But if not they are just violating copyright and then only the copyright holder would be able to sue.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[palegray.net]

I'm frankly pretty confused by that as well.

Re:Any Application they want to?

[Anonymous Coward]

Changes to the DSi broke the Wi-Fi backup tools users have created.

SACRE BLEU !!

[Anonymous Coward]

Le DS nintendo le garbage le stinko !!

Nice to know

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice to know that you can run some of the very cool DS emulation software without running the risk of federal police busting down your door. Well, at least in france

Maybe not the best solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Having worked in the game industry, I can attest that this may not be the best solution. The current measures are in place to hoard revenue for Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony, but a side benefit of this is usually higher standards of quality in the games (not content, but code...trust me, you'd be surprised). First party requirements for many of these new systems are very stringent and help, in many ways, to protect consumers and the products they buy. As it stands all games published for an Xbox 360, a PlayStation®3, or a Nintendo system must be tested and approved by the companies' own QA team. Does this catch all bugs and potential issues in a game before it hits market, hell no. It does, however, ensure that a lower number of games are released with game-crashing bugs, progression stoppers (bugs that leave a player unable to finish the game no matter what they do), and bugs that can damage the system's internal software. If the format is opened to anyone who can make a flash cart, etc., you will, most likely, begin to see a higher number of games with these show-stopping bugs hitting the market in the rush to lower standards in order to maximize profit.

Does one automatically follow the other, not at all. The chance, however, is a high one. Potential backlash from this could see a return of the "Nintendo Seal" type of licensing for other game companies for games that were actually published through the first party, which would cost more to pass through QA process and in turn raise the price of the game. Opening the field for other companies isn't a bad thing, but people will definitely have to be more careful as to what software they buy for their game consoles. With fewer first party blocks in place I would expect to see a game on the market within six months that at least corrupted system software. I've seen software like that in my job already, and the companies may not be willing to fix things like that on their own.

Re:Maybe not the best solution

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Systems that impose costs and delays in exchange for higher quality/safety arguably have their place. I'm quite happy, for instance, that the aircraft that is supposed to be taking me from Boston-Logan to London-Heathrow has been well vetted. Same goes for the anesthesiologist, and whatever curious compounds he is injecting.

Here, though, we are talking about video games running on cheap consumer hardware, in the era of the internet, where bad reviews and news can spread very quickly. I'll take the risk of having a glitched quest on level 15 if that is what it takes to avoid the system producer taking its pound of flesh. If the system producer wants to have an endorsement program, where compliant titles receive the smiley gold star of approval, that is fine by me. If the system producer wants to cryptographically enforce that endorsement program on hardware I have purchased, and own, they can take that idea and shove it somewhere anatomically implausible.

Re:Maybe not the best solution

[Darkness404]

The current measures are in place to hoard revenue for Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony, but a side benefit of this is usually higher standards of quality in the games (not content, but code...trust me, you'd be surprised)

You mean the fact that Star Ocean III managed to fail to work on some PS2s? (http://www.rpgamer.com/news/Q1-2003/030803a.html) the general bugginess of most games, etc. Yeah, they might have better code, but for $60+ I'd better hope it works with any software, from an iPhone app, to an OS, to a game.

I'd settle for a simi-buggy game for free compared to a $50 game with a few bugs.

If the format is opened to anyone who can make a flash cart, etc., you will, most likely, begin to see a higher number of games with these show-stopping bugs hitting the market in the rush to lower standards in order to maximize profit.

Yes, but with flash carts come patches and cheaper games. Yeah, I'd like a bug free game, but paying less for a game and getting more (ability of patches, etc) may be a good tradeoff.

Opening the field for other companies isn't a bad thing, but people will definitely have to be more careful as to what software they buy for their game consoles

Because they don't already? How many people are conned into buying the $50 video game from $MOVIE that is complete crap. Yeah, they are generally less buggy, but that doesn't mean that they are good games. A buggy game with a good plot, storyline, price, and enjoyability is much better than a bug-free crap game.

With fewer first party blocks in place I would expect to see a game on the market within six months that at least corrupted system software.

And if you look at home console homebrew which is a whole lot more risky, you can see that its generally safe. Plus, with the opening up of the consoles, you can actually fix some of the software, and over time console makers will use failsafe firmware that is found in most newer devices.

Re:Maybe not the best solution

[rm999]

Nintendo isn't necessarily worried about the quality of third party games on their system; they make a profit off hardware sales either way. With the iPhone, Apple has proved that people can perceive hardware as high quality despite an overabundance of shitty software.

The main problem to Nintendo is flashcarts make it ridiculously easy to pirate games. Almost too easy - it's far easier to lug around a tiny flashcart than 10 game cartridges. The loss in game sales affects their quality in the long run, and hence the system's chances of success.

Re:Maybe not the best solution

[dowlingw]

My understanding of console games markets is that most consoles are sold as a loss-leader, and the profit is made by the manufacturers by what's known as an 'attach rate', the number of licensed accessories and games released for the platform. If Nintendo wanted to push out an open platform for unlicensed content (not under the Nintendo seal and guaranteed to work on the console), then the business analysts at Nintendo would be forced to put a bigger price sticker on the unit - which is already a stretch for what is seen as an underpowered console. From this point of view, I can understand exactly why controls like this are put into place. That being said, if they made a readily available 'community' developers kit available that allowed you to mess with the platform but not commercially release anything - this could actually work in their favour. They could encourage indies and whatnot to get familiar with the platform and do the groundwork on their product before needing to buy a commercial license. This could lead to an INCREASE in titles for the device, increase attach rates and be win-win for everyone. So it sounds to me like indies are having trouble getting what they want, and this should be the issue!

Re:Maybe not the best solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Hasn't much harmed their success thus far.

Re:Maybe not the best solution

[Jarjarthejedi]

Hasn't this argument been used before? Last I checked there was still no empirical evidence that pirating = less sales, and plenty of circumstantial evidence that it either correlates negatively with lowered sales (more pirating = more sales) or has no correlation at all.

Pirating does not automatically equate to less sales, no matter what the RIAA would have you believe.

Re:Maybe not the best solution

[222]

Maybe they could update their software distribution model to match what consumers want? Hello, mp3 players, take 2. I gave it away, but I did have an R4 that I used for this very reason. I'm not going to lie about not pirating any titles, but I do have a *very* large legit library of DS games, and I was much happier playing them off of an 8 GB micro SD card instead of lugging around a bunch of carts.

Re:Maybe not the best solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Nintendo never sold the wii as a loss-leader. (like the ps3 or the 360 did). I believe the ps3 and 360 are no longer loss leaders. (or if they are, it is by choice and price drops to encourage greater adoption).
The DS has so far been through 3 hardware revisions, and is effectively an augmented GBA. Many years after release I believe the DS is no longer a loss-leader (if it ever was to begin with being a hardware upgrade on already years old designs).
This generation Nintendo have come up with a really different method, augment old technology to be better, but not a generational leap better and sell cheaper (yet still at a profit) makes for a remarkably healthy market when done right.

Also, the argument that "there could be heaps of trash games!!!!" fails utterly. The PC has no restrictions on who can develop / market / sell games. People aren't quite as stupid as many seem to imply by constant references to the game-crash of the 80s.

Here's a few things that people forget:
- Do you have to pay microsoft for a windows devkit.
- Does the lack of such a devkit equate to a market so full of computer games you couldn't tell which you wanted to play?

PSST heres a tip; theres this new fangled thing called the internet, that lets people find out whats good, and whats shit. (the fundamental difference between now and the 80s)

Re:Maybe not the best solution

[Fallen Kell]

The main problem to Nintendo is flashcarts make it ridiculously easy to pirate games. Almost too easy - it's far easier to lug around a tiny flashcart than 10 game cartridges.

There is a simple solution to this, sell people what they want, how they want it. Sell your own FlashCart and sell games over the internet with digital download to a flashcart (or a CD/DVD that can be used on a computer to download to a flash memory that is compatible with the flashcart). The market is basically saying that we want this, so they should start selling it that way...

Re:Maybe not the best solution

[Fallen Kell]

And don't say that the DSi is what I am describing, because it most certainly is NOT. I want to be able to easily, and cheaply replace and or upgrade the memory within the device. Having 1GB built in is all and good as long as it has an expansion slot that takes normal micro, micro, or normal SDHC memory cards.

Re:Maybe not the best solution

[KillShill]

That's precisely the point.

They couldn't legally enforce their illegal lockdown so they used DRM.

Nintendo was sued for this but unfortunately they won.

DMCA and anything resembling it, is illegal, immoral and downright evil. (we're working on the illegal part).

Don't think it's done

[Sterops]

When the decision will be appealed, everything will change: French judges uses RNGs to decide which one is right (except if you attack the government; in that case, you're always wrong).

Thanks to the purse-string holders

[macraig]

Somebody should thank the folks who write these judges' paychecks, thank them for having the ethics to not make them sing somebody else's tune in return for their supper.

What's stopping Nintendo from crippling hardware?

[Anonymous Coward]

They're legal, as are modchips in some other countries, but it doesn't stop Nintendo or anyone else from deploying updates that cripple hardware that legally has modchips or whatever. This law isn't really a solution unless it compels Nintendo or any other console manufacturers from treating customers with modchips or whatever differently.

Sad

[mi]

win-win so far as I can see.

If this is done against the wishes of the console-maker, than you can claim, that they are "winning" too. However unreasonable their wishes may be, they ought to be respected, period. They created the product, they licensed their use to others (of whom nobody was unduly coerced into agreeing) on certain conditions.

You — or this judge — then coming around and saying, you know, we think, those conditions should be changed, and we are going to force you to change them, is just not how things ought to be done in a free society.

Re:Sad

[Anonymous Coward]

So now we don't own our physical products either, they're licensed? Please.

Re:Sad

[Nar Matteru]

win-win so far as I can see.

If this is done against the wishes of the console-maker, than you can claim, that they are "winning" too. However unreasonable their wishes may be, they ought to be respected, period. They created the product, they licensed their use to others (of whom nobody was unduly coerced into agreeing) on certain conditions.

You — or this judge — then coming around and saying, you know, we think, those conditions should be changed, and we are going to force you to change them, is just not how things ought to be done in a free society.

But its completely OK for a console maker to force me NOT to do things with something I outright purchased with my own hard earned money? Since when should their wishes be law?

Re:Sad

[Sparr0]

I am relatively sure that Nintendo never licensed me to do anything. I *purchased* a piece of hardware from them. It is now mine to do with as I please, within the confines of the law. That law being set by the legislature and later by judges, as this judge is doing.

Re:Sad

[autophile]

They created the product, they licensed their use to others (of whom nobody was unduly coerced into agreeing) on certain conditions.

You may not drink from this fountain if you are black.

Some things are just morally repugnant and should not be allowed in a free society. I think your definition of free is anarchy.

Re:Sad

[rayharris]

So let's see...

You didn't buy your car, you licensed it from Toyota. Therefore, you can only take it to Toyota for parts and service.

You didn't buy your coffee maker, you licensed it from Mr. Coffee. Therefore, you can only use Mr. Coffee brand coffee.

You didn't buy your printer, you licensed it from HP. Therefore... um, bad example. Moving on.

You didn't buy your monitor, you licensed it from Acer. Therefore, you can only connect it to an Acer desktop PC.

Do I need to go on?

Re:Sad

[KillShill]

You sound like an App£€ supporter (zealot).

Their (corporate) rights end at my front door.

Once the system is in my house, i own all of it, including but not limited to, the software, the hardware and the firmware (aka everything).

Copyright only protects unauthorized distribution, not granting companies immoral monopolies over things they sell you (the public).

I own the chips and i have the right to reprogram them to my needs.

I own the software (yes own, that particular copy, not the copyright) and i can, with the help of 3rd parties, change it to meet my needs.

I now advocate for less corporate rights and more personal/public/customer rights.

95+ years of copyright length, DMCA, DRM will/needs to die a horrible fiery death.

Re:Sad

[icebraining]

If this is done against the wishes of the console-maker, than you can claim, that they are "winning" too. However unreasonable their wishes may be, they ought to be respected, period. They created the product, they licensed their use to others (of whom nobody was unduly coerced into agreeing) on certain conditions.

Nice way to justify cartels, monopolies, etc. Fortunately, not everyone agrees.

Re:Sad

[GameboyRMH]

Hey don't give 'em any ideas.

Re:Sad

[AmiMoJo]

This is why some consoles make you agreed to an on-screen EULA before you can use them.

It isn't clear if it is enforceable if a child is the one agreeing (normally contracts could not be made with a minor). I'd also like to see someone try to return an opened Wii for a full refund if they disagree with the license terms.

Re:Sad

[Hatta]

However unreasonable their wishes may be, they ought to be respected, period. They created the product

What? I bought the product, it is mine, I should be able to do whatever I want with it. Period. The wishes of the creator be damned.

Re:Sad

[CodeBuster]

But its completely OK for a console maker to force me NOT to do things with something I outright purchased with my own hard earned money? Since when should their wishes be law?

The issue, as others have pointed out, is that the console and the games are perceived to be part of the "official" package by the general public. If you were permitted to market any game on their console, it could effect the overall perception of the brand in the marketplace; particularly if the public is confused about what is and what is not an officially sanctioned product.

For example, suppose that someone produced an M-rated game with adult content for the Nintendo Wii console and marketed the game as "Wii Wanker". Wouldn't that harm the family-friendly image that Nintendo has so carefully cultivated and protected? If it does, shouldn't Nintendo at the very least be compensated for you harming their brand?

I agree that one should be able to do what one wishes with one's own console, but there has to be some line drawn at marketing arbitrary games for a console brand owned by another. Nintendo has decided that it is cheaper to do this with some level of technical enforcement and legal action rather than through legal action alone. I can certainly understand where Nintendo is coming from on this one.

Re:Sad

[Nar Matteru]

The issue, as others have pointed out, is that the console and the games are perceived to be part of the "official" package by the general public. If you were permitted to market any game on their console, it could effect the overall perception of the brand in the marketplace; particularly if the public is confused about what is and what is not an officially sanctioned product.

For example, suppose that someone produced an M-rated game with adult content for the Nintendo Wii console and marketed the game as "Wii Wanker". Wouldn't that harm the family-friendly image that Nintendo has so carefully cultivated and protected? If it does, shouldn't Nintendo at the very least be compensated for you harming their brand?

I agree that one should be able to do what one wishes with one's own console, but there has to be some line drawn at marketing arbitrary games for a console brand owned by another. Nintendo has decided that it is cheaper to do this with some level of technical enforcement and legal action rather than through legal action alone. I can certainly understand where Nintendo is coming from on this one.

Theres no "marketing" involved with flashcarts, in no way are they ever portrayed as an officially sanctioned product, nor do they even sell their products in retail stores that sell official games Peoples perception of them as official products is not the responsibility of the flashcart manufacturer, unless they encourage that rumor, which they don't. In fact they usually go out of their way to state that they are not Official Products. (The outside box has a notice saying its not official, then a slip of paper in the box says it, the label of the flashcart itself, etc etc. as for "wii wanker", that's a different story, that's direct trademark infringement. But just an adult homebrew game would be fine and shouldn't get any legal action against them because that's not breaking any laws.

Re:Sad

[Abcd1234]

For example, suppose that someone produced an M-rated game with adult content for the Nintendo Wii console and marketed the game as "Wii Wanker". Wouldn't that harm the family-friendly image that Nintendo has so carefully cultivated and protected? If it does, shouldn't Nintendo at the very least be compensated for you harming their brand?

Only in-so-far as the term "Wii" is trademarked, and thus Nintendo could simply sue.

But as long as the term "Wii" isn't included in the title, frankly, I don't see what the issue is. After all, you don't think less of Dell just because their laptops can be used to browse for porn, do you?

Re:Sad

[CodeBuster]

After all, you don't think less of Dell just because their laptops can be used to browse for porn, do you?

Personally, as a libertarian, I think that people should be allowed to do as they wish as long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others to do the same (i.e. your ability to swing you fist freely is limited by the proximity of my chin). If the product is NOT marketed as "official" and trademarked Nintendo terms are NOT used in the packaging or promotion (pretty hard to market a Wii game without saying Wii though, don't you think?) then it should be permitted (or at least not prohibited by law). However, in practice how likely is that? Some street vendor is going to copy it, slap the "wii wanker" logo on the flash card, and then sell it as a "wii game". In such cases it is the distributors who should be liable.

Re:Sad

[angel'o'sphere]

You can not license the use of a certain hardwar you sell.
There is no country in the world (that I'm aware of) that allows to restrict the usag eof some hardware to the license of the developer.
No, you ma not use the hammer to nail in nails, it is only permitted/licensed to use it to break windows or to hammer in screws ... hu?

angel'o'sphere

Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

And not too long ago in Spain, a case against a flashcart seller was dismissed since it was rationalized the hardware had legitimate uses. link

Arguments for

[Korbeau]

"You don't frighten us, Japanese pig-dog!"

(pffffpfpfpfpfpfffpfpfp) tap-tap-tap-tap-tap

"I fart in your general direction!"

Re:Arguments for

[Korbeau]

Offtopic!! A slashdot mod without a Monty Python bias!!

...

...

I fart in your general direction!!!

Stockholm Syndrome

[jmorris42]

> If this is done against the wishes of the console-maker, than you can claim...

What in the wide wide world of sports does the 'wishes' of the console maker matter? I have never understood how this came to be. I though we (here in the US at least) had already had this fight. Atari v Activision supposedly settled this matter. Atart couldn't decide who could or could not sell software for their system. Case closed, the Supremes had SPOKEN.

Then the video bust came and a few years later Nintendo introduced the NES and it was like nothing had ever been decided, they blessed your title or you didn't ship, and f**k the Supreme Court if they don't like it. And they got away with it and it has since been thus on the console market and now the handset market, the home video market and if the major players ever thought they could get away with it on the PC as well.

And now on the console (but especially Nintendo fanbois) and with Mac the users have been abused so long they have fscking Stockholm Syndrome or something and not only accept it they LIKE getting hosed by their vendor now.

Clue time. When I BUY a computing device off the shelf I BOUGHT it, I didn't LICENSE it and I couldn't give a good god damn what the vendor of that product WANTS me to do with it. If I want to hack it up and use the individual components in a project I'll do that. If I wanna put NetBSD on it thats exactly what I'll do and screw em if they don't like it.

Re:Stockholm Syndrome

[cgenman]

Activision was the first group of game developers to think of making and selling games for a system created by someone else. Atari hadn't put any protections on the console. Hence, Activision (and everyone and their uncle) could sell games for the Atari 2600 with impunity, and the market was flooded with crap.

Tengen (a division of Atari) tried this with the NES. However, Nintendo *had* put protections on the lockout chip. Tengen acquired a schematic of the chip under false pretenses, and released their games bypassing the lockout chip. Nintendo sued, and it was settled out of court without precedent being set.

Accolade tried this with the Genesis. That one, Accolade one, on the strength that they had properly reverse-engineered the lockout protection, and that reverse-engineering for interoperability was legal.

Then came the DMCA, which was a monkey's attempt to understand the internet, and makes basically everything illegal. But you get the idea. Basically, the courts *had* been ruling that any software company can put out for any system, so long as their software didn't break any laws or patents to do so. However, software these days is intricate enough (and the cryptography strong enough) that no company large enough is willing to do so. Also, they would lose marketing / favor with the console makers, who retain a lot of promotional and other sway.

Re:Stockholm Syndrome

[tonycheese]

Hold on, as an OWNER of one of these flash carts, I have to say Nintendo is pretty justified in trying to stop these things from selling legally. Have you seen or used these flash carts? I would guess about 90-95% of them are used to pirate DS games, while the other 5-10% are used to emulate older games (NES, GBA, etc.) and play media.

There is a card out that purposely does not attempt to play commercial games called the iPlayer card. This flash cart reads music, video, pictures, and so on along with homebrew games. The most popular operating operating system/media player out there is called MoonShell, which does not play commercial games. Honestly, it's pretty trivial to not allow pirating of DS games on these flash carts, but almost all the companies making them are obviously promoting them to play "back-ups".

Re:Stockholm Syndrome

[MindlessAutomata]

Using that logic, bittorrent ought to be illegal, because it's mostly used for pirating software.

Re:Stockholm Syndrome

[tonycheese]

But that's the thing, Pirate Bay or things like LimeWire have been found to be illegal in the way they were operating, since they're trying to make money off the fact that they offer a service to steal things. What helps in their defense is that oftentimes it is very difficult to prevent copyrighted material from leaking on without just complying to DMCA notices automatically.

However, with the DS flash carts, I believe the makers have to go through EXTRA EFFORT in order to enable pirating, and definitely in some cases circumventing anti-piracy checks on a game-to-game basis. In this case, they are not only allowing piracy, but also actively cracking the anti-piracy mechanism. I'm not sure how they got away with it in France (and Spain, too, I heard).

Re:Stockholm Syndrome

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting anon because I moderated.

With the DS, they had to break the encryption to even get the Flash cart to boot. So from there, the hard work of loading a pirated game is done. Plus, there is real valuable benefit in doing so: I have a Flash cart with nothing but games I've purchased. I find the ROM on a pirate site and download it. Saves me from carrying a bunch of carts around. Plus, I lost my Mario Kart game when I went on a week-long trip, but I can still play it. So it actually worked as a legitimate, legal, backup. I still have the original box to prove my purchase.

Re:Stockholm Syndrome

[AmiMoJo]

VCRs too. And the whole of .ru.

Re:Stockholm Syndrome

[whikket]

[..] That one, Accolade one, [..]

Yeah, that one, who won?

Re:Stockholm Syndrome

[Hatta]

As an owner of a CD burner, I have to say that the RIAA/BSA is pretty justified in trying to stop these things from selling legally. Have you seen or used these cd burners? I would guess that about 90-95% of them are used to pirate software or music.

Re:Stockholm Syndrome

[Deliveranc3]

Mod parent +1 Amen.

Re:Stockholm Syndrome

[mi]

And now on the console (but especially Nintendo fanbois) and with Mac the users have been abused so long they have fscking Stockholm Syndrome or something and not only accept it they LIKE getting hosed by their vendor now.

I never owned a console (nor a Mac, for that matter), so your diagnosing me with a "Stockholm Syndrome" (and, no doubt, aiming to liberate me from it) is complete non-sense.

I'm just viewing this from the rights perspective. It is wrong for you, the judge, or whoever, to try to twist the creator's arm into some "new and improved" uses of their creations. If they can be persuaded — fine. If not — so be it... Throw the console out in protest, if you must, and read a book...

They are also worried about unlicensed devs

[Sycraft-fu]

Consoles make very little money on the hardware. In fact, some of them even take a loss. If you look at the money made through hardware sales, they'd really not be a worthwhile proposition. Way to risky given the meager returns when they succeed compared to other consumer electronics.

Where consoles make their money is games. Every copy of every game sold generates licensing revenue for them, because you need to be licensed to produce games. That's where the cash is. Game sales far outstrip console sales and the license fees they collect are little cost to them.

So, unlicensed development would be a real problem. Previously, it might not have been such a big deal. You could probalby strong arm a lot of retailers in to not carrying unlicensed games. Ok but now, those games could be sold over the Internet. You buy the game online, download it to your flash card and go. It would be rather easy to bypass Nintendo entirely.

Yes I realize people can and do use the carts to copy games but who really cares? All systems suffer from people doing that, back in the SNES days people did it with cart to floppy copiers. Copyright infringement is a fact of life on all platforms, and they do fine even so. Look at the PC, the one that is the easiest. It still has over double the games revenue of the biggest console platform.

The real concern for Nintendo is that they'd lose control on their platform and lose out on license fees.

Re:They are also worried about unlicensed devs

[jmorris42]

> So, unlicensed development would be a real problem.

You are correct but your point doesn't matter. It is true only because the vendors built their business model around something that should not be, nay that the US Supreme Court had already (supposedly) shot down. The world doesn't have to alter reality and everybody doesn't have to bend over to protect a business model that should have never existed.

So lets work to do away with it and force the console industry to adapt to a sane world. All it would mean is that this hardware generation would get stretched out another year or so until the next generation could be sold at a profit from day one.

Re:They are also worried about unlicensed devs

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you're moderated "insightful," I have to ask:

Where do you get the figures that say the PC has "over double the games revenue of the biggest console platform?"

Re:They are also worried about unlicensed devs

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you're moderated "insightful," I have to ask:

Where do you get the figures that say the PC has "over double the games revenue of the biggest console platform?"

http://www.theesa.com/newsroom/release_detail.asp?releaseID=44

The NPD Group revealed that, in 2008, total U.S. video game console software sales reached $8.9 billion (189.0 million units), PC game sales hit $701.4 million (29.1 million units), and portable software topped last year’s record sales with $2.1 billion (79.5 million units) in revenue. Overall, retailers sold approximately 297.6 million computer and video games last year.

Let's see, porables - 18%, consoles - 76%, PC - 6%. You were saying?

Re:They are also worried about unlicensed devs

[SuseLover]

The solution is simple then; don't make/sell consoles at a loss. That is the same as dumping.

Re:They are also worried about unlicensed devs

[midicase]

Selling hardware at a loss but make the software profitable? Don't we curse other industries for this type of razor and blades business model? Wasn't there just a Printers and ink article?

Re:They are also worried about unlicensed devs

[thetoadwarrior]

Nintendo has always been a profitable company even when their sales were poor because they do make a profit on their systems.

All hardware should have a profit because in the future it will have to. Retailers get screwed on hardware more than anyone and they're going to sell a profitless piece of hardware so MS can sell games online.

Unless MS lets these retailers sell the digital content for them, expect retailers to treat non-physical software consoles like the PSP or watch the price of the systems spike.

So they might as well do the logical thing and ease people into paying more and make a profit. It would make the industry healthier imo.

Re:They are also worried about unlicensed devs

[Renaissance 2K]

According to an article on IGN, the PlayStation 3's production cost at launch was as much as $840.35. They had a hard enough time pushing the console at $600, and an additional $240.35 wasn't going to make that any easier, which would have been the bare minimum without the current business model.

Licensing fees are rather high for the PS3, so it can be argued that you'd make up for the high initial investment buy paying less for games, but there's no guarantee that publisher's won't just take the savings for themselves. Do you know why Activision is suddenly selling Wii and PC games for $60? I'll give you a hint... It isn't because licensing fees suddenly went up.

Re:They are also worried about unlicensed devs

[Abcd1234]

So I assume you have a similar problem with, say, razor manufacturers, among many *many* other industries?

Re:They are also worried about unlicensed devs

[Abcd1234]

According to an article on IGN, the PlayStation 3's production cost at launch was as much as $840.35. They had a hard enough time pushing the console at $600, and an additional $240.35 wasn't going to make that any easier, which would have been the bare minimum without the current business model.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

If Sony can't make an affordable product without basically dumping it on the market (selling *way* below cost and subsidizing income from their other, substantial businesses), then tough shit.

Re:They are also worried about unlicensed devs

[Renaissance 2K]

Consoles are subsidized through software licensing, as has already pointed out. The fact that Sony has "other, substantial businesses" helped when the console slogged through its first few years, but the only console producer that has consistently profited from hardware is Nintendo.

It's the "razor and blades" business model, and its application in the video gaming industry is a lot more forgiving to consumers than it is in many other contexts. At least with video games, there's a healthy second-hand market (no, Mr. Bear, I have no interest in your used Mach III blades, thank you very much) and the option to wait for prices to drop... unless we're talking about Call of Duty 4, which will still be $40 long after we're dead.

Re:They are also worried about unlicensed devs

[Abcd1234]

The fact that Sony has "other, substantial businesses" helped when the console slogged through its first few years, but the only console producer that has consistently profited from hardware is Nintendo.

Exactly. So what the hell is wrong with the rest of them?

Oh, right. They're subsidizing their product and selling it at a loss in order to gain a competitive advantage. That's dumping, and there's laws against it.

And regardless, I'm not sure why we should care. Nintendo has shown over and over that selling consoles at a loss is *not* a requirement for competing in the industry. So the idea that the industry will somehow evaporate because the manufacturers can no longer make money from licensing is demonstrably false, given that the current market leader has never had to do so.

What's next

[microbee]

All systems should be like Linux and open source!

Re:What's next

[Cwix]

Then who would we hate? If everything was like liunx it would become fedora vs opensuse ubuntu vs mandravia ... havoc would rule... ohhhhh the humanity

Re:What's next

[Narishma]

Don't worry, there's always vi vs emacs if everything else fails.

Re:What's stopping Nintendo from crippling hardwar

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod"Chips" might be legal, but selling or installing them for money is not.

Likewise, selling "100GBA games" for 5$ is not legal.

Go look on any asian equivalent of eBay. You will see only pirated games for SALE, usually as a "xx games in 1" cartridge.

These are nothing more but the R4 and equivalent with a sticker on them.

I like Nintendo, but if I ever had to live in Hong Kong or South Korea, I don't think I would be able to find a legitimate game let alone a legitimate DS Lite.

Excellent!

[six809]

Let's hope we get a similar ruling in this country some time (seems unlikely under the yoke of Mandelson, but still).

Get developing!

Re:What's stopping Nintendo from crippling hardwar

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe where you live it is illegal but it is perfectly legal here in Australia and other countries to sell and install modchips. Piracy isn't legal though, but that's not what the French case is about.

DS is chuckful of shovelware

[Pinky's Brain]

Not as full as the iPhone perhaps, but really whether I have to look for a couple of games in a hill of shit or a mountain of shit really doesn't matter much. Without going on reviews (or reputation of the developer) the platform will not give you a very good experience, and if you go on those the amount of shit really doesn't matter.

Shameful masonic Christ-killing conspiracy

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is Nintendo will now be flooded with violent, homicidal, pervert and pornographic games. It used to be a family-friendly, kid-safe platform. Now the choice of religious christian parents to buy morally agreeable and wholesome consoles for their kids will be forcibly taken, badly infringing on their First Amendment rights.

Why this decision happened in France? Their 1789 revolution was actually a free-mason coup and the masonic rule of terror "laicised" the country afterwards, in their hatred against Jesus and the catholic church especially. Masons, a branch of kabbalistic-satanistic judaism heresy is hell-bent on destroying all morals and faith on Earth. They adore the Jahbulon totem effigy, a goat-head giant statue, which actually represents Baal and Osiris as the dark pair of omnipotent JHWH.

I hope Nintendo will pull out of Europe to protect the wholesome american game console from the french masonic conspiracy!

Re:Shameful masonic Christ-killing conspiracy

[Anonymous Coward]

Wut!? Decision fueled by satan!?

If it could be like GNU/Linux...

[GNUPublicLicense]

... oh wait... hackers do install GNU/Linux on their DS!

Re:If it could be like GNU/Linux...

[Mornedhel]

No they don't, not anymore. You can't run DSLinux on the DSi (and probably not on the newest DS either). You need a first-gen DS or a DS Lite.

Development seems to have stalled on DSLinux, too, so I've basically lost hope of ever running it on my DSi.

Re:If it could be like GNU/Linux...

[GNUPublicLicense]

We should be able to hack the hardware we bought. Locking away users like that is way overboard. I would like to enjoy mario, zelda AND SPACE INVADERS EXTREME 2 on the same device I hack GNU/Linux on without having to crack it.

Re:If it could be like GNU/Linux...

[thetoadwarrior]

I think companies would turn a blind eye to hacking if it wasn't linked directly to piracy in virtually every instance. Face it, most people are not interested in something they view as nerdy, like homebrew gaming.

Re:If it could be like GNU/Linux...

[GNUPublicLicense]

This not about what people are interested in, it's the fact that *any* hardware device distributed to people should be hackable without having to crack it. It is a matter of digital freedom. The feature should be there by default.

Hm, word "apple" comes to my mind...

[Kartu]

Hm, word "apple" comes to my mind... I wonder, why...

Who remembers the "Hbox" dis?

[tepples]

But if there's only 1 good game then no one would buy a console.

People bought the original Xbox just to play Halo.

Re:Who remembers the "Hbox" dis?

[Golddess]

But if there's only 1 good game then no one would buy a console.

People bought the original Xbox just to play Halo.

And the original Playstation just for Final Fantasy VII (I didn't, but know someone who did).

PC gaming as an alternative to console gaming

[tepples]

If Atari had been able to legally keep out competitors, the best Atari 2600 games would never have seen the light of day.

They would have seen the light on Atari 400 or 800 home computers or perhaps Apple or Commodore machines, not the Atari 2600 VCS, but they would have seen the light of day nonetheless. One big difference between then and now is that unlike all video game consoles and 1980s home computers, entry-level Wintel PCs can't display on an SDTV without a $40 adapter.

Re:PC gaming as an alternative to console gaming

[ClosedSource]

"They would have seen the light on Atari 400 or 800 home computers or perhaps Apple or Commodore machines, not the Atari 2600 VCS, but they would have seen the light of day nonetheless."

The number of Atari 2600s sold was at least an order of magnitude more than the Atari 400 and 800 combined.

Besides, many of the best games were created specifically for the 2600 and wouldn't be any big deal on more capable machines.

  In any case, the vast majority of early home computer users didn't have any mass storage device so games came on a cartridge. So we're back to the same issue.

Re:PC gaming as an alternative to console gaming

[tepples]

the vast majority of early home computer users didn't have any mass storage device so games came on a cartridge.

And the cartridges for a lot of these home computers were literally just a standard mask ROM (and possibly bank switching logic) on a PCB. There wasn't any sort of DRM like that seen on Atari 7800 or NES.

Re:PC gaming as an alternative to console gaming

[ClosedSource]

Quite true although I don't get the point.

Re:PC gaming as an alternative to console gaming

[tepples]

The point is that there was nothing legal in the way of publishing a game on cartridges for a home computer if the console makers rejected your game.

Re:PC gaming as an alternative to console gaming

[Ant P.]

entry-level Wintel PCs can't display on an SDTV without a $40 adapter.

They usually can't display anything at all without that $40 adapter.

Re:PC gaming as an alternative to console gaming

[tepples]

entry-level Wintel PCs can't display on an SDTV without a $40 adapter.

They usually can't display anything at all without that $40 adapter.

The video chipset in an entry-level PC displays the Windows desktop and web sites just fine. It just generates VGA signals, which are too fast for an SDTV to process. The "$40 adapter" I mentioned is a VGA to S-Video scan-converter; which adapter did you have in mind?

Re:PC gaming as an alternative to console gaming

[ClosedSource]

I've already explained why this doesn't matter.

Party games for PC?

[tepples]

Anyone can develop, no fees required. Hasn't ruined PC gaming.

But the PC's inability to output video to a television without an obscure adapter between 1987 (when VGA came out) and 2007 (when TVs began to incorporate VGA and HDMI inputs) has ruined some genres of PC gaming. Where are the 4-player games in the board-game-and-minigame genre? Where are the 4-player fighting games? Where are the 4-player racing games? All on consoles, because the median console monitor is bigger than the median PC monitor.

Re:Party games for PC?

[HaZardman27]

Most PC gamers I know don't tend to have lots of USB controllers lying around, because they prefer mouse and keyboard. Would you like to have 4 mouse/keyboard sets plugged in at once so you could do splitscreen?

Re:Party games for PC?

[tepples]

Would you like to have 4 mouse/keyboard sets plugged in at once

Except the operating system installed on most PCs doesn't provide an easy way for apps to read four mice and four keyboards plugged into USB hubs. DirectX combines all keyboards' keypresses into one event source and all mice's movements into one event source.

so you could do splitscreen?

The screen needs to be split only if each player needs a separate view. That's good for auto racing games or first-person shooters but not needed for games like Bomberman, Street Fighter, and Smash Bros., for instance.

Sound like others lost too

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple probably lost big on this ruling also.

This will all be irrelevant soon

[bencollier]

Pretty much all future consoles will only be able to download content from the hardware manufacturer's website, making this a moot point. We ought to be asking the EU to force Apple, Nintendo and MS to open up the market for downloadable apps. I guess someone is doing this at the mo?

Re:This will all be irrelevant soon

[HonIsCool]

Why should they be forced to do that? Their business plan is to sell the hardware cheaply, or at loss even, and make money on software sales by having third-party developers pay a license fee for titles they wish to have available. Why should the hardware manufacturers not be free to use this tactic? Because it's better for third-party developers if they don't have to pay license fees? Are consumers better off? The price of software might possibly be lower due to removal of license fees, but logically the cost of the hardware would go up, but if the consumers buy enough software, maybe they are better off in the end. But is even this enough justification for removing the hardware manufacturers' freedom to choose what software they make available on their website?

Re:This will all be irrelevant soon

[bencollier]

For the same reason that the person who manufactured your TV shouldn't be allowed to dictate which channels you're able to watch. This sort of behaviour creates vast monopolies and stifles competition.

Re:This will all be irrelevant soon

[HonIsCool]

Is there regulation that stipulates that such a thing? I can't manufacture and sell a TV that will only receive one channel?

Re:This will all be irrelevant soon

[bencollier]

I'm not aware of any, although there are judicial rulings in various countries that have taken a similar view, for example this. See also the UK Competition Act, specifically disallowing certain vertical restraints.

psystar should move there as well as the iphone ja

[Joe The Dragon]

psystar should move there as well as the iphone jail beakers and unlockers.

Bad example

[GameboyRMH]

You mean the same PC gaming that gets about 8 "major titles" per year (mostly delayed console ports with some features stripped out), has been occasionally declared dead over the last 8 years or so, requires a system that costs at least twice as much as a gaming console (and you may have to assemble and configure it yourself), and where split-screen multiplayer is a thing of the past?

I'm a PC gamer but it's a niche market these days...that said, I think it has nothing to do with the number of games out there and more to do with Microsoft's failure to promote Windows as a gaming platform (Microsoft being the de-facto "gatekeepers" of PC gaming) ever since the Xbox came out, which is quite stupid since PC gaming is Windows' strongest (IMO, only) selling point to home users. Also, lock-in makes money, and the PC is still practically an open platform, while console users are totally locked in. It doesn't help that games are so damn expensive - those "major title" games can run $50+! Steam sales have proven that cheap games make more money than expensive games, period. The rest of the industry should take a hint.

Re don't have the band with of that and do want to

[Joe The Dragon]

Re don't have the band with of that and do want to download a 6gb+ game? and still you will need a Local flash ram, flash card, hdd to store it.

Re:Re don't have the band with of that and do want

[bencollier]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSP_Go ?

Games for Windows, AKA MS Seal of Approval

[GameboyRMH]

...if the major players ever thought they could get away with it on the PC as well.

Actually this is happening..."Games for Windows" is just Microsoft's version of the "Nintendo seal of approval." The Xbox 360 controller for the PC, the most popular PC control device since the Gravis Gamepad, is also basically just a physical lock-in device - games must support it to get the Games for Windows label, and it doesn't play nice with games that weren't specifically designed to support it (and I'm not even getting into the circular vs. square stick travel issue).

Re:Games for Windows, AKA MS Seal of Approval

[FreelanceWizard]

Yes, except for the fact that the "Nintendo Seal of Approval" was the marketing appearance of a restrictive licensing mechanism based on the lockout chip, and circumventing the lockout chip was, until the courts decided otherwise, of questionable legality.

Games for Windows is just a marketing mechanism. It has no effect on one's ability to publish or sell a game. In fact, many games exist that don't support the 360 controller or do so only tentatively, and yet there's no push to eliminate them from the PC. Microsoft, for whatever other issues you may ascribe to it, at least strongly believes in an open software ecosystem. They *want* people to write software for Windows of all types, because without a vibrant developer community, an OS is doomed.

The death of console gaming

[grapeape]

This is a rather dangerous precedent. A completely open system would eliminate any need for licensing which is the console manufacturers bread and butter. Most consoles at least in the first couple years sell at a significantly subsidized loss. The PS3 for instance was broken down by isupply shortly after release and was determined to cost around $800 to manufacture, its alot cheaper now as parts and components have come down in price but still supposedly sells at a small loss. How many console manufacturers are going to want to sustain a product model with no clear way to make a profit? If they changed the model to something more like the computer industry will consumers be able to accept at $1000 gaming device?

Homebrew is great, but for the vast majority its just an excuse for piracy. If homebrew were the be all end all...the gp32 would be the top selling handheld in existence rather than a platform no one outside the geek community has heard of. So far no attempts at a truly open console have been successful. I havent seen people beating down the doors to own a Pandora or Evo yet, and if the past is any indication they will never amount to more than an interesting footnote in gaming history.

If anything the only thing that will happen if this holds up is consoles will move even further towards a physical media-less system. Downloads only will eventually replace disks and cartridges eventually being replaced by streaming services like OnLive as manufacturers and developers try to maintain some semblance of control. In the end the "everything should be open" crowd might win but the result would be that we all loose.

Re:The death of console gaming

[thetoadwarrior]

Nintendo has always sold their hardware with a profit unlike the competition so you can't say it can't be done. The problem is that no one has done it well. Even an open platform like the PC, isn't all that great and that's with backing from numerous large hardware companies and Microsoft.

Re:The death of console gaming

[Abcd1234]

This is a rather dangerous precedent. A completely open system would eliminate any need for licensing which is the console manufacturers bread and butter. Most consoles at least in the first couple years sell at a significantly subsidized loss.

Well, then they should stop doing that, shouldn't they? Nintendo seems to have figured that out. If Sony can't, tough shit.

Re:The death of console gaming

[Anonymous Coward]

Homebrew is great, but for the vast majority its just an excuse for piracy.

You speak the truth but unfortunately your post will probably eventually end up modded as 'troll'.
People love mentioning homebrew but I seriously doubt the majority of flash cards and mod chips and used for that purpose. It's just like how everyone was saying 'but I modded my console for homebrew!' during the recent mass Xbox Live banning.
If so many people were truly interested in homebrew, the gp32 would have been selling like crazy.

INTRODUCING...

[GameboyRMH]

The Kung-Fu Action Ballmer(tm) action figure! Press the button on his shoulder and he throws Windows logo shurikens! Squeeze his chest and he yells "Developers!" 14 times in a row and secretes authentic Ballmer Sweat(tm) from his armpits!

slow-motion scene of Kung-Fu Action Ballmer throwing shurikens at Linus Torvalds, Sergey Brin and Steve Jobs action figures, sold separately

Kung-Fu Action Ballmer is Bluetooth-enabled and will comment on nearby devices!

(Near iPhone) This thing has no chance! It's the most expensive phone in the world and it has no keyboard!
(Near Android phone) I'M GOING TO FUCKING KILL GOOGLE!!!
(Near Maemo device) Linux is a cancer! It infringes on our patents! Name one? Fuck you, that's one.

Plus, Kung-Fu Action Ballmer(tm) still works with the original Ballmer Office Chairs(tm)!

*Accessories sold separately. Ballmer Sweat(tm) refills available at leading toy stores. Batteries not included.

Flash carts should be banned

[thetoadwarrior]

The fact is 99.99% of the people using them are doing so for piracy. Just like anything else, people aren't interested in the little guy's efforts. They're interested in pirating the big name popular stuff. This is why, despite how easy it is to discover new and legal music, most people are downloading shit from Beyonce and Brittany Spears.

Secondly, saying people should have free access to develop on the system, like a PC, ignore the fact that PC gaming is dying. Part of the reason for this is piracy and part of this is because anyone can do anything on it and we receive a glut of half baked titles that just plan suck or won't be any good until they're patched.

I know the pre-Nintendo days of console gaming had some decent games but forgetting the rose tinted glasses, there was a glut of utter shit out there and that sank console gaming (just as it's killing real PC gaming).

Bill Gates was so certain he could beat consoles with PCs but I think MS realised it was working against them to have a platform where any numbnuts can release something and the decided to give in and go down the console route.

It would be nice to have freedom and in an ideal world the PC would be on top. It would have an excellent wide spread system to promote good games from people while allowing people, if they so choose, get onto Google and hunt down the rubbish as well. There were decent sites, even ages ago (like Happy Puppy) that helped find good games but I don't think, like the games, there were too many shit sites.

France has good intentions but this decision was a cock-up.

Re:Flash carts should be banned

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to compare your point here with a few unreasonable ones, in order to illustrate how it might be considered a failure.

"Flash carts should be banned because most people use them for piracy."
becomes
"E-mail should be banned because most of it is spam."
or perhaps
"High-speed internet connections should be banned because most people use them for copyright infringement."
"Writable media should be banned because most people use them for piracy."

Hell, I might even pull up something completely ridiculous, say...
"Women being at or near street-corners after dark should be banned because most of them are prostitutes."

I hope my point is made.

Re:What's stopping Nintendo from crippling hardwar

[thetoadwarrior]

Exactly and Nintendo will do it and I think we're never going to get a region-free Nintendo hand-held again. The Gameboy and DS were as open as you could get for a console as they were region free.

All the jack asses downloading DS roms and shitty rulings like this are going to ruin it for those of us who do take a real interest in homebrew and importing legal games.

Once again the mouth breathers ruin something for the rest of us.

Windows Mobile SDK needs paid VStudio

[tepples]

the software required to develop your own windows apps (in c, c++, or C#) is a FREE DOWNLOAD from M$! Granted for free you don't get the "enterprise" version of the thing, but all you are missing is the mission critical networking stuff that only server apps need.

The Windows Mobile SDK explicitly does not support the free "express" edition of Visual C++.

Windows?

[DaVince21]

"... things should be more like Windows where ANYONE can develop any application if they wish to."

So he meant more like Linux.

<start flamewar>