Gran Turismo Gamer Becomes Pro Race Driver

An anonymous reader writes "Back in 2008, Lucas Ordonez lived what seemed like an ordinary existence. The 22-year-old Spanish student was an avid motorsports fan, but he lacked the suitable investment necessary to become a professional race driver and had virtually given up on racing. Besides, he was already knee-deep in trying to complete a Master of Business Administration (MBA). But it was Ordonez' passion for virtual racing, particularly his love of Gran Turismo, that made him stand out from his peers — both off the track and eventually on it. In just a few months, Ordonez' life was transformed from console dreamer to racing the real thing at a real race track in Europe. And Ordonez managed to do the unthinkable: go from the couch car to the race car, and win."

Comments

Oh God

[pwnies]

Just what we need - more people thinking that since they can play games they can do it in real life. Hide all the Guitar Hero/Rock Band addicts.

Re:Oh God

[Anonymous Coward]

Just wait 'till the CS fans get out of their parents' basements...

Re:Oh God

[EkriirkE]

Don't worry Sir, I'm from the internet!

Re:Oh God

[interkin3tic]

Just what we need - more people thinking that since they can play games they can do it in real life. Hide all the Guitar Hero/Rock Band addicts.

And keep all the "Phoenix Wright" players off of slashdot.

"I am not a lawyer, but I've played one on the DS!"

Re:Oh God

[megamerican]

Just what we need - more people thinking that since they can play games they can do it in real life. Hide all the Guitar Hero/Rock Band addicts.

Bill Belichick got his job with the Patriots after showing off his skills at bribing the ref in Mutant League Football.

Now if only it was legal to kill the quarterback and farting was a 5 yard penalty, then I might watch a game again.

Re:Oh God

[mweather]

And Modern Warfare 2 hasn't caused a skyrocket in enlistment

America's Army makes enough of a difference in enlistment number for the Army to keep funding it, though.

Re:Oh God

[clone53421]

Don’t they use it – or a modified version of it, at least – as part of their training?

Or am I totally remembering that wrong...

Re:Oh God

[petermgreen]

And Modern Warfare 2 hasn't caused a skyrocket in enlistment
Indeed, I wonder if the more realistic modern warfare 3 will change that ;).

Re:Oh God

[Anonymous Coward]

OBJECTION!

Re:Oh God

[mister_playboy]

Why not? They use flight simulators to train pilots. This is the same basic idea. There is no question learning course layouts via GT would be very helpful if you were placed on the physical track you've lapped many times virtually. I've tackled the virtual Nürburgring enough times that I would be able to put in decent hot laps on a first visit much quicker than someone who didn't have much experience on the track layout from a video game and had to tread more carefully.

The main thing is to build up the physical stamina you need for whatever level you race at. Most people could never handle Formula 1, but they could probably handle a 2-liter touring car.

Re:Oh God

[jgtg32a]

No they use ArmA2 for training

Re:Oh God

[Idiomatick]

GT 4/5 with a good screen and good wheel/pedals is not a game. It is a simulator as high or higher quality than what is available for military training. Many/most of the skills in GT are directly transferable to the race track.

Guitar hero is not remotely like playing a guitar. I imagine however that the drum skills are transferable to a decent degree.

If guitar hero was what I wanted it to be after the early music games came out we would see transferable skills. Plug in an electric guitar and play to the music. The console works as an amp, and marks your playing based on accuracy. While I imagine you could still get perfect and not sound good (accuracy issues), people would naturally make that correction themselves if they actually were hearing themselves play.

Re:Oh God

[Forge]

I don't see what the big deal is. These games are simulations. That means you can make all the stupid mistakes possible without killing yourself or wiping out a village. Any good quality simulator should be usable as a training platform for people who intend to do it for real.

Which makes me wonder about those Resident Evil fans. Are you really planning to have a Zombie Apocalypse? Ohh... that's right you are. Must tune my trigger fingers. and practice how to decapitate with a machete while avoiding splatter.

Re:Oh God

[MattGWU]

Second Life architects!

"The winning design was eventually built in Chicago. The 200x400 meter building was 32 meters tall, had three levels, no windows (a bold choice!), no visible internal load-bearing structure, and no stairs because winning architect HeyBaby4U Lauterbrunnen decided 'they take up too many prims, and really, you just fly up anyway, so who cares?' A rotating 10x10x10 cube, which glows day and night while hovering over the building announced to the world that 'VIP Strip Club and Mall and Escort Service' is open for business! Space is available to rent for sixteen cents a day."

Guess racing is easier to pick up from a game, especially one with good physics (and, one would hope, good damage modeling!) I've designed a nice looking building or two for SL, and mine even had plausible-looking (looking!) load-bearing structure for the big open parts everybody seems so fond of (camera angles and the fact that the average avatar is about seven and a half feet tall have interesting effects on pragmatic architecture in SL), but never a self-congratulatory 'you know? I could do this for REAL!' moment!

Works the other way, though: I know real architects and jewelery designers who create products in the game.

Oh, also made a 430-some prim replica of an Audi R10 three years ago (before sculpted prims, I hasten to add), but never scripted it to drive, so no Le Mans for me, sadly :(

Re:Oh God

[stewbacca]

Even worse, he wasn't even investing his time in a serious racing sim. There are plenty of sims out there that can prepare you with a solid understanding of racing physics that transfer to the real world. None of them, however, run on consoles.

Re:Oh God

[FrancoMcNeil]

No, they use both. The video game is created by the Public Applications team (or whatever happened after AA3.0 was released), while the training applications using the same platform are made by several other teams (http://info.americasarmy.com/teams.php).

Re:Oh God

[stewbacca]

No they don't. I develop Army training, and most of the stories you hear about soldiers playing video games for training are exactly that...stories.

Re:Oh God

[ibbumpin]

... And Modern Warfare 2 hasn't caused a skyrocket in enlistment, ...

Except in the 9 year old age range

Re:Oh God

[Hatta]

Wow, I guess Jack Thompson was right after all.

Re:Oh God

[stewbacca]

Flight simulators are used to train pilots on how to handle situations as they arise, or to learn the location of the many and complex controls. They are used to train pilots on the complex requirements of air traffic control, communications, and regulations. Most racing sims skip all this stuff because the very long boring days of registering a race team, putting the cars through inspection and hanging around the paddock for hours on end are not very interesting in a video game.

Re:Oh God

[stewbacca]

Man, there is so much wrong with your post...GT is not a very good sim as far as realism goes, especially compared to alternatives out there. It is fun, but not incredibly realistic. It isn't even as realistic as Grand Prix Legends from 1997/98? or even the NASCAR 2003 series. I'm guessing you have never raced in real life, or used a serious racing sim. Any "sim" that lets you stomp the gas and brakes with relative immunity is not a very good sim. It's not even really accurate for learning the race track, as most tracks you go to take a lap or two to remember the layout (this doesn't transfer well in video games, but it takes a lot more laps to memorize a track in a sim than it does real life, most likely because in real life you can "see" more of the track and the environment around, giving you more reference points,etc.) Besides, the things racers are interested in on a track are the camber, bumps, dips, pits, and other things that affect the traction of the race car. The best racing line in a sim may be marred in real life by worn out pavement, or an off-camber layout (only one game I've ever played has successfully simulated an off-camber turn realistically, Grand Prix Legends, the first left hander after the short chute at Watkins Glen).

Secondly, the military has far better simulations available to them than a Sony video game. Unlimited budget, no need for fancy music and cut scenes, no need to worry about sales figures. I know, I was in the Army and I now develop training simulations for the Army. The simulations used to learn how to fly a UAV are indescernible from actually flying a UAV.

Thirdly, (and yes, I play drums too), the drum skills in those Band/Hero games are terrible. They don't even develop the basic motor skills of the bass drum, snare drum, high hat (95% of all popular western music). Instead you just hit something related to when a light lights up on the screen. No transfer at all... At least the guitar part of those games puts the notes in relative order (higher notes are higher on the fret board, and lower notes are lower). The drums are just layed out as, red, blue, orange, green...a drummer didn't design these games, clearly.

Yes I know it is rare that a race car driving, drum playing, Army training simulation trainer shows up on slashdot, but here I am ;-)

Re:Oh God

[The Moof]

The difference being that Gran Turismo (I don't remember if it was 1 or 2) came with an additional manual describing real driving techniques actual race driving. I've never opened a GH/RB box and found a "Learn How to Play Guitar" book.

Re:Oh God

[Stormwatch]

and, one would hope, good damage modeling!

Until recently, Gran Turismo had no damage modeling at all, and even GT5 is rumored to only have a simple and incomplete system. That's a downside of using real cars: makers really don't like if you show their product damaged. If you use fictional cars, a la FlatOut or Daytona USA, you can annihilate them as much as you want.

Re:Oh God

[turbidostato]

"GT 4/5 with a good screen and good wheel/pedals is not a game. It is a simulator as high or higher quality than what is available for military training."

Uh! that must explain why militars expend quite a lot of money on simulators instead of just grabbing a copy of GT... oh, wait!

"Many/most of the skills in GT are directly transferable to the race track."

Idiomatick can attest that since all his race track skills come from playing GT... and all we know how many times his hard earned abilities allowed him to rise to the podium... oh, wait (again)!

Re:Oh God

[Idiomatick]

Oh in GT you have to shut off a whole bunch of settings to make it realistic. If you just leave the standard settings the realism is pretty bad... They figured it'd be too hard or annoying for gamers to deal with. Try it out with the aids all shut off. And do it in regular road tires.

Field of view actually is fixable in GT4, and I assume 5. You can hook up 3 screens and set them to 3 different viewpoints. Giving you a pretty good simulation of the real deal, 3x40" screens in a semicircle around you is pretty accurate.

That said, surfaces felt a bit TOO perfect in 4, something they are fixing for 5. And I believe surface changes are being added (rubber on the road) as is vehicle damage.

Anyways I wasn't arguing that GT5 was 100% transferable to the road just that it is a good deal transferable, guitar hero is not.

UAVs/flying vehicles are easier to sim than cars especially when you have to do several hundred vehicles. Also GT has a budget of 60million... I'm not sure how big the US budget is for their games but 60million isn't small especially considering it is a 5th game they are well developed already.

And I take back what I said about drums. I was being snobby against drumming (hit things to the beat), stupid kneejerk bias of mine I let slip, my bad. I still think some of it is transferable to nooby drummers even if it isn't as much as I imagined.

Race cars, drums, and army isn't that shocking of a combo :P though nicely relevant to the thread.

Re:Oh God

[Arrawa]

Well, you might want to look around then, there a plenty of examples where soldiers do train within a virtual environment. For example, here in the Netherlands the Dutch TNO institution has rebuild an entire virtual village in Afganistan used by soldiers to train team skills. http://www.tno.nl/images/shared/overtno/magazine/tno_mag_3_apr_2009_06_09.pdf

Re:Oh God

[Wiarumas]

Not only have I played Phoenix Wright, but also SimCity and Civilization. I'm pretty sure that qualifies me for President in 2012. I'm also fairly certain I know the cheatcode to fix the economy.

Re:Oh God

[MikeBabcock]

You haven't played GT have you? Its not a game as much as its a simulator.

Airline pilots learn how to fly real planes in "video games" too for that matter.

Re:Oh God

[Bakkster]

Thirdly, (and yes, I play drums too), the drum skills in those Band/Hero games are terrible. They don't even develop the basic motor skills of the bass drum, snare drum, high hat (95% of all popular western music). Instead you just hit something related to when a light lights up on the screen. No transfer at all... At least the guitar part of those games puts the notes in relative order (higher notes are higher on the fret board, and lower notes are lower). The drums are just layed out as, red, blue, orange, green...a drummer didn't design these games, clearly.

Sorry, but they certainly were developed by drummers (at least as far as Rock Band, Harmonix is >70% musicians). Also, the drums are (for the most part) layed out consistently, at least enough to put two and two together as to which drum you're 'playing' if you just listen.

And if they didn't build up the motor skills to hit high hat, snare, and bass, how did I go from playing bass guitar to playing drums as well? I didn't emerge from the game as a fantastic drummer, but I played well enough to fool people into thinking that I had played the drums before. Two years later and I play drums more than bass. I had to refine my stick rebound, dynamics, and tempo, but otherwise I knew how to play drums. I still tend to consider what I do 'faking it', but I still do it well enough to fool those who don't know, and even best several people I know who come from percussion backgrounds.

And that's the point, these games lay the groundwork for future success, assuming you have the opportunity to hone your skills with the real thing. Nobody expects (I hope) to turn their game lap time their first time on the track, but you'll get there a hell of a lot quicker than someone with no sim experience.

Re:Oh God

[Bakkster]

I've never opened a GH/RB box and found a "Learn How to Play Guitar" book.

But there were 'here are proper drum/vocal techniques' tutorials.

Re:Oh God

[dragonxtc]

Man I haven't thought about Mutant League Football in years, that game was totally awesome.

Re:Oh God

[Bender Unit 22]

Some games have better versions than others. The best I have found so far has been Forza 2 (and 3). I tried some of the Need for speed games and a lot of corners was straightened and inclines and declines were not as steep. Forza did however had one or two places where the jumps almost made me fly and in the real world it was just one of those places where you shouldnt try to break or turn.
Driving a virtual version of cars in Forza that I have tried in real life was pretty close when it came to speed/engine power. The standard tire setup were a bit off though(less grip). Its not that I am a expert though, I think I have only taken about 30-40 laps on the real ring.

I have tried to train in Forza to remember the turns better but I had a problem relating many of the places to real life. I see the more famous places and remember the cell phone tower and other places. I took like 30 laps in Forza without being able to remember enough , 20 laps in real life seemed to help much better.

Re:Oh God

[Pollardito]

It's a pretty large leap to go from a soldier in a video game to a ground fighting soldier in real life, but there was a recent story on NPR about how similar they've made drone piloting to video games. They use video game inspired controllers so that they A. feel similar to what people are used to using and B. piggy-back on the decade of experience that game controller designers have put in

GROSS: Many people have made the observation that with more robotics, war becomes like a video game. But you report about how some of the robotics are intentionally designed like video games to take advantage of skills that young soldiers have as a result of having played a lot of video games. Would you describe how some war robotics are designed intentionally like video games?

MR. SINGER: Well, it's interesting. The military quickly figured out that there were two advantages of doing this. For example, the hand-held controllers that most of the ground robotics systems use, they're modeled after the Xbox or the PlayStation. And the reason was two-fold. One, they figured out, okay, these game companies have spent millions of dollars designing systems that are, you know, perfectly suited, where your finger should go and the like, and if they did all the research, why don't we piggyback on that? The second is they figured out, hold it, the video game companies have actually trained up our forces for us already. That is, you know, we're getting kids coming in who've spend the last several years working with these little video game controllers. So why not free-ride off of that as well?

And the result of it is, because of these systems and because they're trained up that way, it's another kind of ripple effect we're seeing, the demographics of war even being reshaped. That is, one of the people that we interviewed was a 19-year-old high school dropout. He's an Army specialist. He's actually, by some consideration, the best drone pilot in the entire force, and it's in part because of video games. And it's an interesting story because he originally wanted to join the Army to be a helicopter mechanic, but because he had failed his English class, he wasn't qualified for that, and instead they said, hey, do you want to be a drone pilot? And he's turned out to be spectacular at it. They sent him off to Iraq, and then he was so good that they brought him back to be an instructor in the training academy. And again, this is someone who's not even an officer yet, and he's in the Army.

Now, take this ripple effect further. This is not a story that people in the Air Force like to hear, and it's spooking out a lot of people, for example, you know, F15 pilots, who spent years and years training, go to college, they're officers, and when they hear, hold it, this 19-year-old video gamer is not just better at these systems than me but actually is out there doing more fighting than me, what's going on here?

Re:Oh God

[Leonard Fedorov]

I think its "bailout" at the business management screen, all lower case.

Re:Oh God

[iamhassi]

"Just what we need - more people thinking that since they can play games they can do it in real life."

The description leaves out that he beat 25,000 other Gran Turismo players in a online contest sponsored by a magazine for which the grand prize was to race in a real race car. When he won and actually drove well, then he became a pro race driver.

So really, the gaming only gave him the opportunity to try to race for free. It could have been a contest for anything really, could have won a pie eating contest with the prize being racing. The description and article are a bit misleading. I might be great at trama center, I might even win a contest against thousands of other people, but until I'm given a real scalpel, perform surgeries and save patients, medical doctor I am not.

Winning race car contest != great race car driver in real life

Re:Oh God

[AnotherUsername]

Not only have I played Phoenix Wright, but also SimCity and Civilization. I'm pretty sure that qualifies me for President in 2012. I'm also fairly certain I know the cheatcode to fix the economy.

Just don't just cass too many times when trying to fix the budget...

Re:Oh God

[drinkypoo]

Any "sim" that lets you stomp the gas and brakes with relative immunity is not a very good sim.

Any "comment" that makes it clear you haven't inspected the game options is not a very good comment. You can disable traction and braking assist.

Besides, the things racers are interested in on a track are the camber, bumps, dips, pits, and other things that affect the traction of the race car.

Which are modeled in the latest Gran Turismo game.

The best racing line in a sim may be marred in real life by worn out pavement, or an off-camber layout (only one game I've ever played has successfully simulated an off-camber turn realistically, Grand Prix Legends, the first left hander after the short chute at Watkins Glen).

Nothing can really simulate it because you cannot feel what the car is doing — there is no car. How would you know if the simulation was correct?

Re:Oh God

[hairyfeet]

Since you are in that business I have a question for you: While I figured that training foot soldiers with video games would be a waste of time, what about the vehicles such as the MRAP, M1, Apache, etc? It would seem with the high cost of fuel and ordinance for such vehicles it would make greater economic sense to use VR training as opposed to feeding the gas tanks on those beasts. In a VR simulation you can also put them into situations that could result in loss of vehicles and life if it were not a simulation, thus adding to the safety.

I know the USAF uses simulators for training in their aircraft, but have never seen anything on the Army doing the same, except for that old story from the 80s about the Army approaching the creators of Battlezone to create a sim, which was probably just BS. Do they use simulators, or just field exercises?

Re:Oh God

[stewbacca]

60 million isn't very much money in software development, in my experience. But then again, I'm in the cash-cow defense contracting industry, so maybe that's an unfair comparison.

And I have to admit, my harsh critique of Gran Turismo is based solely on GT5 Prologue. Hopefully the final version will be much more realistic. They should spend more time tweaking the physics engine and less time worrying about car damage models and sound effects, IMHO.

The drum thing is understandable. Not everyone can play drums. If they made Band Hero or whatever it's called realistic, nobody would play it, because it would be too hard.

Re:Oh God

[stewbacca]

I was assuming the conversation was about the US Army, since they were talking about the "America's Army" game. Surely some Army units use games and sims for training. I'm just saying it's not part of the US Army Training and Doctrine emphasis, and no formal critical training tasks exist that incorporate commercial off-the-shelf games and simulations.

Re:Oh God

[Nicolay77]

Denny Hamlin did win after training with a video game by papyrus:

http://www.gamespy.com/pc/nascar-racing-2003-season/712182p1.html

The programmer of papyrus is the same guy behind the new iRacing simulator.

However, I do agree that GT is not good enough compared with iRacing or the papyrus games.

Re:Oh God

[stewbacca]

These games DO lay the groundwork for future success...by developing interest in music/racing sims/whatever. The version that I tried didn't even have a base drum pedal (you hit the orange one on the right with a stick instead). You also ended up hitting every drum with one hand if you wanted to, which is good if you are Rick Allen.

Re:Oh God

[stewbacca]

I heard that story when it aired. The freaky part is that the UAV pilots get off duty and go back to their homes...they have more stress than guys on the ground, 24/7 engaged. The guys who pull their UAV shifts have a hard time going from "war mode" to "grocery shopping, then soccer match" mode.

Re:Oh God

[stewbacca]

Yes, the Army, especially future weapons, relies heavily on simulations. The entire point of simulations is that you can start/stop/redo when a mistake is made, and it doesn't cost any logistics. You can also program many more unexpected scenarios than can be trained in real life. My program trains the soldiers how to use the command and control computer software (not the weapon systems themselfs), but they take the training in real versions of the vehicles that the computers are in, to help duplicate the engine noise, smells, crampped quarters, etc.

My initial point is that the Army doesn't officially sanction any commercial games for use as a training tool. We have plenty of programs that use proprietary "games" (if you want to call them that) and the inclusion of something like America's Army (a recruiting tool, not a training tool) is ludicrous, wishful thinking on behalf of the slashdot readership.

Re:Oh God

[stewbacca]

Any "comment" that makes it clear you haven't inspected the game options is not a very good comment. You can disable traction and braking assist.

It's relative. Even with all assists turned off (which is the only way to play a sim for realism anyway. The only reason those options are even there is to let casual players have fun) console racing games are too easy. For reference, try Grand Prix Legends, or NASCAR 2003. Those are the two benchmarks for traction realism in racing sims (and I'm sure there are newer breeds of serious sim racers, but they aren't mass produced console games).

The best racing line in a sim may be marred in real life by worn out pavement, or an off-camber layout (only one game I've ever played has successfully simulated an off-camber turn realistically, Grand Prix Legends, the first left hander after the short chute at Watkins Glen).

Nothing can really simulate it because you cannot feel what the car is doing — there is no car. How would you know if the simulation was correct?

With tactile and visual feedback, you can "simulate" car control when confronted with something nasty like an abrupt change in banking in a NASCAR game (going from the banked turn to the flat part at the bottom of the track), or when you miss the line in Grand Prix Legends at Watkins Glen, and the off camber part of the track pulls your car to the outside. Or like how "Flugplatz" and similar humps on the Nurburgring actually make your car lighter and thus lose traction, especially taking into account the amount of throttle input that is applied. Console games rarely take this sort of physics rendering into consideration. They do, to an extent, but mostly its just a lot of engine/tire noise, with no actual negative lateral integrity applied to the sim vehicle (in other words, you can just point the steering wheel and mash the gas and brakes with relative impunity, compared to the real thing, or compared to a "good" racing sim).

Re:Oh God

[Stupid McStupidson]

..they have more stress than guys on the ground, 24/7 engaged.

What a hellish life full of stress......to without risk conduct your mission, and then go home to your family at the end of your shift. And all those fucking slackers actually under real fire and threat think they got it rough!

Re:Oh God

[dangitman]

Would you mind doing the rest of humanity a favor, and remove yourself from the gene pool? Thanks.

Re:Oh God

[Dutchy Wutchy]

What you posted a few comments deeper:

My initial point is that the Army doesn't officially sanction any commercial games for use as a training tool. We have plenty of programs that use proprietary "games" (if you want to call them that) and the inclusion of something like America's Army (a recruiting tool, not a training tool) is ludicrous, wishful thinking on behalf of the slashdot readership.

There was even talk of modified (non-commercial) software which you completely ignored. You could have at least set the record straight with a more detailed post than "No they don't."

Since you have been making personal responses, maybe you will reply to this: Are not some of the proprietary software the basis for commercial software (or vice versa)? And if so, which commercial software are related (Op. Flashpoint, ArmA, ArmA2, AA, Arctic Fox, etc.)?

Re:Oh God

[Jedi Alec]

Iirc, both the more recent Need for Speeds and Grid had "real" cars as well as damage modeling(to an extent anyway). Especially in Grid I had a serious tendency of finishing with a car that looked nothing like the one i started off with ;-)

Re:Oh God

[IKnwThePiecesFt]

Are you serious? Have you ever played Forza 2/3? If you think they just use engine/tire noise to make the point of traction loss on a crest then you're playing it with all the assists turned on or something.

Re:Oh God

[joocemann]

No they use ArmA2 for training

Yeah, go ahead and just make crap up. It seems right, huh?

pffft...

As a veteran, I lmfao all day when people think we train with video games.

You don't know what you are talking about and you know it.

Re:Oh God

[turbidostato]

"Denny Hamlin did win after training with a video game by papyrus:"

Person X did Y about Z. How does this mean anything about person X''s performance about Z'?

Re:Oh God

[ausmusj]

IANALBIPOOTDS - You need to sue someone...

Re:Oh God

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

Hey! I tried to say that first, but my damn screen wasn't recognising my taps!

Re:Oh God

[davester666]

I wonder what job you qualify for by mastering world of warcraft? Besides mass-murderer.

Re:Oh God

[Bakkster]

it's more than just interest, though, there is a common skillset. Practice in the game can improve your real life performance and vice-vers-a. While they will need to exercise it differently, a racing gamer will know how to feather the throttle, to overtake in a corner, or avoid a wreck. Likewise a music gamer will know common drum beats, fills, and how to move their hands and feet seperately and in time.

Sure there are bad habits to overcome (I still bury the bass pedal), but the gamer has a head start over someone with just a strong interest.

And what drum game had you playing bass drum with a stick? Were you playing on a lower difficulty?

Re:Oh God

[The Archon V2.0]

Not only have I played Phoenix Wright, but also SimCity and Civilization. I'm pretty sure that qualifies me for President in 2012. I'm also fairly certain I know the cheatcode to fix the economy.

I'm not qualified at all, but I'm the only candidate not afraid to save scum until I get it right.

Re:Oh God

[stewbacca]

I think it was Rock Band at Best Buy..no bass drum pedal setup.

Re:Oh God

[Acaeris]

To the best of my knowledge the drum kit you used was a custom job for Best Buy. Rock Band and Guitar Hero have never been supplied with a drum set that doesn't have a bass pedal. This setup gave you absolutely the wrong impression of how the drums work with the supplied drum kit. All the pads in Rock Band for instance are assigned to specific parts of the drum kit:

• Red: Snare (Hi Hat only for specific songs with rolling 16ths such as Run to the Hills)
• Yellow: Hi Hat and Tom 1
• Blue: Symbol and Tom 2
• Green: Crash and Floor Tom

You can also play it with the ION midi kit (which can actually be used to learn and record drum tracks on a PC) and that has a fully adjustable layout and separate symbols extensions for a more complete set up.

Having not used the Guitar Hero kit I can't comment on the relationship between it and a real kit but I certainly feel that the official Rock Band kits are accurate enough to learn the basics.

Re:Oh God

[Bakkster]

I think it was Rock Band at Best Buy..no bass drum pedal setup.

The demo stations were intentionally dumbed-down. Best Buy initially requested there be no pedal, since they didn't want to set up chairs, or scare customers away if it was too hard.

I suggest at least trying the actual game. It's quite close to actually drumming, at least as much as one would reasonably expect.

Re:Oh God

[stewbacca]

Nice info! As a devout accoustic drummer, I'm not familiar with the "ION" midi kit, but I've always thought some of those expensive, realistic Yamaha electric kits would be good to plug into a game like that.

Re:Oh God

[Pollardito]

Whether you personally are under fire or not, if you're doing a job that involves killing people it's going to be stressful. Imagine a UAV pilot that killed 5 people in a car somewhere overseas driving home wondering if the people they killed aren't just as innocent as the people in cars around him. The fact that you're not bodily in a war could actually make it harder to mentally justify your actions, because you're not just firing back at people that are trying to kill you.

Re:Oh God

[Stupid McStupidson]

Imagine the guy getting two hours of sleep before his watch beside his truck in the middle of Afghanistan because the weather makes it impossible to reach the main roads at the time. His two hours of sleep come rough due to massive amounts of adrenaline still coursing through his body as a physiological response to the hour small arms battle that saw the truck in front of him destroyed by an IED. The truck was crewed by a couple of friends of his that he'd previously spent more than a year in training with, and they'd become pretty close. Their bodies are a on the other side of the camp, since the weather is so bad they couldn't get any air assets out tonight. Poor weather combined with high altitude severely limit flight characteristics of helicopters, and red tape severely complicate fixed wing support. All that combined with the knowledge that the closest allied support by ground is three hours away, in the best conditions..and possible not even able to reach you at all due to weather created terrain problems, makes for a lot of fear when you wake up, because you are pretty much on your own, and this could be it.

First...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Place!

Congrats to the kid. The best I ever did was become a plumber.

Re:First...

[Daimanta]

"The best I ever did was become a plumber."

Suck to be told that the princess is another castle everyday I presume?

Re:First...

[molecular]

virtually well done, but for real... you loose

Re:First...

[Xoltri]

And if you ever do get her you'll have to share her with your brother....awkward...

Cool!

[Anonymous Coward]

So I can become a SPARTAN? That would be so cool!

Re:Cool!

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Sure thing! All you need is to be young enough, living under a fascist government hell-bent on kidnapping and torturing kids, some botched medical experiments with 80% failure rate ending up in horrible, slow, painful death (your odds are not so good here) and bingo! You get to serve the said fascist outfit against a band of religious wackos, in the contest to see which bad guy wins.

On the side note, it is an interesting social commentary that a game where brain-washed product of a Dr. Mendele-wannabe serving fascist lunatics is the "hero" would be a Microsoft best seller...

Re:Cool!

[NoYob]

You forgot about the part about growing up as some older guy's boy toy and how mating with a woman was an actual chore. In other words, the society's norm was homosexuality.

On a side note, the Spartans were one the greatest fighting forces of all time and they were all homosexuals. So much for not allowing gays in the military.

Re:Cool!

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Actually I was talking about the sci-fi books giving the background story to the Halo games wherein the SPARTAN cyborg program was explained, which is what the GP poster was referring to, not the actual Sparta of antiquity.

Re:Cool!

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Err, we were talking about the books, not the game itself (which by the way I do not play as it is a rather mediocre PC FPS and excites only the console crowd). Not that the books are any better, I gave up half-way through the 1st one after it became apparent that it was glorifying Nazi-style "ends justify the means" ideology ...

Re:Hmm

[ravenspear]

Not really, because with porn it's more about the equipment you have than your skill level in using it.

GTA?

[Haxzaw]

How about Grand Theft Auto? Couldn't someone go straight from the couch to the streets and "win"?

Re:GTA?

[__aamnbm3774]

well, without the radar bubble showing you where the cops stop searching for you, it will be more difficult, but not impossible.

Re:GTA?

[petermgreen]

I very much doubt it for a few reasons

1: in GTA you have auto-targetting
2: in GTA you have a radar showing the cops and (in the case of GTA4) you just have to get out of their search area for a few seconds to be safe.
3: in GTA all the negotiations happen in cutscenes
4: in GTA getting busted and "wasted" (the closet thing the game has to getting killed) are relatively minor things, you just reload and/or take the relatively minor hit.
5: the enemies in GTA are generally far less effective combatants than you are, going alone against huge hordes of gangsters like GTA forces you to in the real world would be suicide.

SCCA champions, too

[notgm]

I happen to know for a fact that the current SCCA prosolo and solo2 national champion has played GT extensively as well.

Re:SCCA champions, too

[ThogScully]

And I came in last and nearly last, respectively, in both competitions. Having never played GT, now I know why. ;-)
-N (#28 FSP)

Re:SCCA champions, too

[stewbacca]

That's kind of like saying "I know some NFL guys who play Madden"...doesn't mean Madden is very realistic, only that people in an industry like playing games associated with their chosen professions.

The otherway is true too

[Drethon]

Like you hear sometimes from NASCAR, I worked on the race car of a guy who uses Papyrus Nascar Racing 2003 to practice running at Berlin Raceway. He says the ARCA (or was it ASA?) mod cars have a very similar feel to driving a Sportsman at the track.

Wouldn't want to jump straigt into a racecar after driving games in arcade mode though...

Re:The otherway is true too

[Bakkster]

The Papyrus games were very squirrely and hard to drive... just like they should be.

The console sims still give a little bit of leeway on acceleration, which makes a big difference when you run a RWD car with 800+ HP.

I knew I could do it!

[MadAnalyst]

This has inspired me to follow through on my love of Modern Warfare into becoming a world class mercenary. I will then follow up with my love of WOW to a career as a successful blood elf. The future looks bright, and I look forward to proving myself right to so many people who told me my "hobbies" would never do me any good.

Re:I knew I could do it!

[Jedi Alec]

Pah, amateur. As soon as I finish building my Punisher frigate and save up enough money for an Amarr Frigate skillbook, I'm a gonna take off from this damn planet before it floods and head off to lowsec!

It's different

[realmolo]

Driving a car in a videogame and driving a car in real life are very different, but the actual *racing* part is pretty similar. Controlling the car is important, but it's not what wins races. Racing is all about knowing the lines and racing techniques, and a video game can definitely teach you that.

Re:It's different

[Anonymous Coward]

I think about 98% of gamers just had their hopes dashed when they read "fitness" as a requirement.

Re:It's different

[Thelasko]

Racing is all about knowing the lines and racing techniques, and a video game can definitely teach you that.

Actual F1 teams train their drivers using simulators. Basically a very expensive version of Gran Turismo.

Re:It's different

[stewbacca]

More importantly, racing is about car control. A mass-marketed sim like Grand Turismo does not approach the levels of realism required to be an adequate sim for learning this.

Re:It's different

[Thelasko]

Here is a more detailed video about the Williams simulator. They can not only train drivers, but test new equipment as well.

Re:It's different

[jbezorg]

You mean I can't actually just keep the throttle wide open and use the handbrake to scoot around corners in a Mclaren F1 just like in Need for Speed??

Re:It's different

[Arthur Grumbine]

Driving a car in a videogame and driving a car in real life are very different, but the actual *racing* part is pretty similar. Controlling the car is important, but it's not what wins races. Racing is all about knowing the lines and racing techniques, and a video game can definitely teach you that.

You have vastly overcomplicated what it takes to be a winning race car driver. Source.

Re:It's different

[frosty_tsm]

More importantly, racing is about car control. A mass-marketed sim like Grand Turismo does not approach the levels of realism required to be an adequate sim for learning this.

I think you underestimate the realism of the GT series. While the abstract some of the car characteristics, they do depict the handling of the cars pretty well.

While not a proof, one of the parts shops hosted a GT tournament for the local autox people. The racers were able to apply what they learned while pushing their cars to the limit back to the video game. I had thought I was good, and then I saw what the others could do.

Re:It's different

[sleeping143]

Gran Turismo is actually quite a good simulator. It might not be quite as accurate as the simulators Ferrari and McLaren use to keep their F1 drivers in form, but it really doesn't have to be. With the use of a force-feedback steering wheel, you can get very close to experiencing the real performance of a huge selection of cars in GT. The biggest difference, to me, between GT and actual racing is the level of exertion required. I get physically tired on track before I get mentally exhausted, but in GT4 I don't have to strain against cornering, braking, and acceleration force.

Re:It's different

[parcel]

Driving a car in a videogame and driving a car in real life are very different, but the actual *racing* part is pretty similar. Controlling the car is important, but it's not what wins races. Racing is all about knowing the lines and racing techniques, and a video game can definitely teach you that.

I think, at least to an extent, it helps with actual driving too. I've sunk at least a hundred hours into every GT game since GT1 (before I even had a learner's permit). On three occasions I've had to make emergency reactions while driving in real life where - I don't know quite how to put it into words - everything just felt smooth and practiced.

Two things especially, scaling reaction to speed of travel and turning into a fishtail, are things that I think feel natural from all the time in GT. I just fortunately haven't had many "practice" opportunities in real life, so I figure I must have learned from the games.

I use a wheel & pedals instead of a controller, too, which maybe helps the simulation value.

Re:It's different

[hardburn]

In many ways, the parts lacking in realism make the game harder then real life. Standard gamepad controllers don't have nearly the range of motion of an actual wheel, and smoothly applying acceleration through a corner is almost impossible. While that much can be fixed by buying a good racing wheel and pedal setup, there are more fundamental limitations, too. It important to be able to feel how the car responds via g-forces, and until somebody invents artificial gravity, it's simply impossible to simulate this except through very crude methods. The effect becomes more dramatic as the car's performance goes up. Shutting off one of your senses is bound to have an affect.

On the plus side for games (that is, things that increase your times over the real world), the simulation will remove any fear you might have from smashing into a wall. This is probably the main reason why game times tend to be higher than real world times around the same track.

The best way to think about Gran Turismo compared to real racing is to consider a similar but different type of racing, much like difference between a track day car and a go kart. Go karts need many of the same skills, but they're not exactly alike. That hasn't stopped F1 teams from recruiting promising young go kart drivers before they're even old enough to have a license. The differences can be smoothed out later with training.

Re:It's different

[Burning1]

On the plus side for games (that is, things that increase your times over the real world), the simulation will remove any fear you might have from smashing into a wall. This is probably the main reason why game times tend to be higher than real world times around the same track.

I'm going to say it's because games (even simulators) tend to stupify the simulation for exactly the reasons you describe. In real life, the behavior of the vehicle can tell me a lot about what it is or isn't doing. Without that feedback, it's too easily to step over the line... So the simulator has to be somewhat more forgiving than reality.

In a real race it isn't the fear of death that keeps the riders from riding at 100%, it's the fear of losing. Spinning out, running into the dirt, or crashing means defeat. The same is true of a simulator.

Re:It's different

[GreatDrok]

"Racing is all about knowing the lines and racing techniques, and a video game can definitely teach you that."

Indeed. I'm too old and fat to fit into a real racing car but back when I got my PS2 I had the logitech wheel set up (playing with a joy pad doesn't really do it for me) and ran GT3 on my projection screen. Got pretty good too.

A little later, my wife bought me a track day as a birthday present and they took us out in MG-Fs with an instructor to show us the lines. I already knew how to read the road and so did just fine. The best driver of the day was awarded on the basis of that session and I won largely because of the time spent in GT.

It isn't exactly like a real car as you don't have the G-forces but with a big enough screen and force feedback on the wheel it can be quite involving and educational. I think student drivers should all be put through their paces in a sim before being let out on the road, especially here in New Zealand where kids start driving on the road at 15 (madness) and the standard of driving here is terrible (excessive speed and tailgating resulting in lots and lots of avoidable crashes). Sessions in a simulator letting them learn to judge the road and conditions as well as throwing hazards at them would definitely help a lot.

Re:It's different

[stewbacca]

No. And you can't use the armco to corner faster either!

Re:It's different

[MikeBabcock]

You haven't actually done your research obviously. Several drivers have in fact used the Gran Turismo for car control. There's an interesting interview with one driver who said he's used Gran Turismo to practice certain tricky corners before getting to a track because wrecking the car in the game is a lot more forgiving than doing it in real life.

Gran Turismo has the graphics mapped down to the location of the markings on the asphalt and the positions of the trees from the real tracks. The tracks aren't flat either, they have bumps and unevenness from the mapping of the real asphalt. While the game doesn't map a few interesting bits like tire wear over time or vehicle weight changes from fuel usage, it is in fact very very accurate.

In fact, most people I know who enjoy Gran Turismo, including myself, have a hard time explaining why to our gamer friends who insist "its not fun" because its too realistic.

Re:It's different

[cjanota]

Here is a story along a similar lines where Williams hosted a competition to drive an F1 car. http://www.britsonpole.com/the-fan-the-f1-car-and-the-experience-of-a-life-time-post16906

Re:It's different

[MikeBabcock]

What I find more interesting is when one real life race car driver beat all the best GT5 players at a mini tournament playing the game. He knew how to drive well, and that translated properly to the game.

Watch Tanner Faust explain how to drift in the game based on his real-world driving experience on Youtube if you like.

Re:It's different

[Anonymous Coward]

Driving fast is easy just put your foot to the floor.
Driving fast and well is another matter.

Re:It's different

[Nicolay77]

It is actually a very expensive version of rFactor.

You can buy rFactor from here: http://www.rfactor.net/

IndyCar and Nascar drivers use http://www.iracing.com/

You can play both in your PC, not in a playstation.

Re:It's different

[Nicolay77]

No, but iRacing is an adequate sim for learning it.

You just need a Logitech G27 racing wheel.

Re:It's different

[j00r0m4nc3r]

More importantly, racing is about car control. A mass-marketed sim like Grand Turismo does not approach the levels of realism required to be an adequate sim for learning this.

Uhh, doesn't TFA prove otherwise...?

Re:It's different

[awengine]

Absolutely. I started playing GT a few years after I started driving. It definitely changed the way I drive, noticeably, for the better.

Re:It's different

[rwa2]

I bought the Logitech G25 wheel for GT4 a while back and really enjoyed it (even though it doesn't support the H-shift). The realism is pretty good as long as you stay on the pavement.

The only PC sim I've found that was comparable to Gran Turismo is Live 4 Speed 2. I've tried a few other titles such as GRID, Dirt, and one of the recent Need for Speed things, but all of those felt pretty much like arcade racers... the cars would kinda slush back and forth on the road, but don't really feel connected to the steering wheel. Admittedly it took a bit of tuning in GT and L4S2 to get the handling to feel right, but it's not like I didn't try to tune the other games.

The arcade Ferrari F355 on "Simulation" mode was also pretty good, I played one at Dave & Buster's just before I decided to shell out for the G25. It actually feels quite a bit better than the G25 wheel and stick, plus I felt that it was much easier to feel and control drifts in the F355 than any of the cars I've played in GT4.

Anyway, I'm somewhat eagerly awaiting GT5 to be released and maybe the price of the PS3 to come down again.

Anyone have any luck with steering wheels on more "open environment" games, like GTA4 or Midnight Club? I really hate being confined to the linear "racing tube" in most serious racing sims. The physics of those games are a bit over the top hollywood / cartoony, but those are the tradeoffs you need to make sometimes, I suppose. The only "arcade racer" I've taken a liking to has been the Burnout series, just because it's the only one that has made all of the wacky crashes and explosions fun. Sometimes I feel nostalgic for Test Drive 3 or Stunt Driver, back in the day...

I'd also like to recommend EuroTruck Simulator as a decent driving sim that I've tested with the Logitech G25. It was a bit shallow, but one of the very few recent games I've seen that has somewhat serious "real world" driving scenarios with lots of traffic and traffic laws you need to follow and interesting physics, and stuff.

Re:It's different

[spire3661]

I have used my GT4/Logitech steering wheel in Midnight club and GTA IV. In midnight club i usually just end up aggro'ing some cops and race like hell down the freeway to get away. Its really fun jsut tooling around the city with a steering wheel. GTA IV isnt as fun as its much less of a driving game.

Re:It's different

[stewbacca]

No. TFA proves that a guy with superior video gaming skills possesses a skill that is pertinent to both video gaming and race car driving.

Re:It's different

[stewbacca]

Actually, you need good pedals. Race car control requires more throttle and brake control than steering wheel input. Any racer will tell you that you steer the car with the throttle.

Re:It's different

[Tibia1]

Although you must strain yourself while on the track, it may be worth the escape of factors such as mom aggro while competing virtually.

Re:It's different

[xxuserxx]

You should read up on simulator tech. For years the PC world has had motion simulators. look up Frex.

Re:It's different

[AbRASiON]

Really, GT trained you with an emergency situation so you didn't crash / get hurt? Even without a damage or penalty simulation? :)
Sure you're not talking about Forza?

Re:It's different

[joocemann]

Probably true, and GT5:P is pretty legit.

But what they don't know is that since there is no vehicle damage, you just go into the non-grassed corners at full speed and ride the wall!! SCORE!@!!!!

Do THAT in real life!

Re:It's different

[im_thatoneguy]

More importantly it doesn't have to be a perfect simulator for every car. It's pretty similar to moving from one car to another or even how Michael Jordan can be a half decent baseball player. The application might not be perfect but the learning process is similar and the skillset is identical.

Or a good video game metaphor is that while Starcraft and Warcraft aren't really identical the skillets one develops in one game apply to another.

I used to play MS Flight simulator 3.0 every minute of every waking day. The first time I flew a plane I was able to take off fly a pattern and land without assistance except for tower communication. The simulator was nowhere near accurate enough to perfectly replicate real flight but I certainly knew where I needed to be on approach etc.

Driving is similar. The car physics might not be terribly accurate but most importantly you know where you need to be in the turn and the human brain is very good at accommodating the 'strange physics' of the real world.

Re:It's different

[UnknownSoldier]

> I'm going to say it's because games (even simulators) tend to stupify the simulation for exactly the reasons you describe. In real life, the behavior of the vehicle can tell me a lot about what it is or isn't doing. Without that feedback, it's too easily to step over the line...

Exactly. When I go around a corner, and start to feel the tires about to give, I know the maximum speed I go and still main control.

In a game there is no feedback for G's or when the tire is about to lose traction and thus all too easy to end up taking a corner TOO fast, and blowing it.

Re:It's different

[ryusen]

Jeremy Clarkson experienced the difference once. He drove the exact same car on the exact same track and concluded that the only thing keeping him from getting close to the same laptime was fear.

Re:It's different

[ryusen]

I had a similar experience, when my car started to over steer, just a small counter steer and i was fine. guess it's a good thing i like using the same car i own in the game as well?

Oh my science...

[dudeeh]

Hmm, I wonder whether I should join the terrorists or the counter terrorists? I don't mind shooting a few hostages, but planting a bomb and then just sitting there watching the count down, knife in hand...It's just not me.

On a more insightful note:
> But it was Ordonez' passion for virtual racing, particularly his love of Gran Turismo, that made him stand out from his peers
ye, gamers tend to have that effect...

ok, not really insightful, but at least I tried!

Re:Top Gear Anyone?

[pwnies]

Apparently he was recently interviewed on Top Gear (see a ways down the page, they have a transcription of the interview [warning: pdf]) recently. Maybe Clarkson will have another go at it.

Re:I wouldn't sponsor him

[structengineer]

Nah, I think it's actually opposite. The gamer knows in the back of his mind that the game is just a game . . . when he switches to the real thing he'll tend to be more cautious, due to the "oh $#!7" factor . . . When you're used to driving around a POS and thrashing it, and suddenly get put into someone else's Ferrari, you're going to be extra cautious.

Applies elsewhere too?

[shogun]

So if I want a job with NASA I just need to get really good at Eve?

Re:Applies elsewhere too?

[skine]

So if I want a job with NASA I just need to get really good at Eve?

Is Eve a simulation for aerospace engineering or scientific testing?

Re:Applies elsewhere too?

[Chris Mattern]

Yeah, I hear NASA has a real need for tritanium miners.

Re:Applies elsewhere too?

[shogun]

Actually I thought it was a simulation of a free market economy. Maybe its better training for Wall Street (pirates and all).

Re:Applies elsewhere too?

[19thNervousBreakdown]

EVE is a crushing depression with suicidal tendencies simulator, the best there ever was.

Re:Applies elsewhere too?

[WoRLoKKeD]

Nah. Chribba's the first man they'll go to.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not true. There are plenty of male stars in porn who have average-sized wangs. The important thing for the male star is to be able to get an erection at the right time, keep it, and be able to ejaculate at the proper time. You can have a 12 inch wang, but if you can't perform when you're required to you aren't going to last long.

Re:I wouldn't sponsor him

[sarahbau]

[citation needed]

I call BS. Just because you don't die when you crash in a video game, it doesn't mean someone who started out in a driving simulator would't know the risks of crashing. Also, to get the best lap times in Gran Turismo, as in real driving, you can't drive too aggressively and slide off the road, bump rails, etc. Even if he had no fear of injury (which I think is a stupid assumption), he'd be avoiding wrecks to get the best time anyway.

Racing Simulators

[jzarling]

There are a number of racing simulators out there that (if the promo copy id to be believed) are supposed to help you with your skills.
I have thought about giving http://www.iracing.com/ a try, but just haven't had the time off lately to justify getting a membership.

Re:Racing Simulators

[xxuserxx]

Get it! iRacing is fawking awesome! There is no other game er.."simulator" that even comes close to iRacing. The physics and track accuracy is rivaled by none. iRacing makes Gran Turismo look like a kids game. But what really sets Iracing apart is the organized online races. Drives really have to race clean and stay on the tracks or you simply lose your license and have to race in a lower league. The extra pressure makes for a very intense experience.

Re:Top Gear Anyone?

[jzarling]

IIRC, it was Laguna Seca, it was supposed to be a send off for the Acura NSX.

Watch out Roger Federer!

[srussia]

They called me the Pong-master back in the day. See you at Wimbledon and then GET OFF MY LAWN!

Re:I wouldn't sponsor him

[Synn]

The brain knows the difference. I've met quite a few people that have done tandem skydives and felt fine, but froze up scared when they did their first non-tandem skydive where they knew they'd have to deal with everything themselves.

Given the economy...

[amazingxkcd]

Hes lucky that he got a job racing (for now) since a lot of people are jobless, and he got the job by being a slacker.... such great motivation! I should join the CIA if i keep getting 10+ headshots a match on mw2....

Re:Given the economy...

[AtomicOrange]

The kid was working on his MBA...

Slacker? Really?

Re:Given the economy...

[amazingxkcd]

then again a mba or pro race driver? id choose the pro race driver

Re:Given the economy...

[AtomicOrange]

It's not like the MBA goes away, it's still there in the event of his race car driving career... coming to a screeching halt?

Yes, terrible. I know.

Error in the summary!

[dzfoo]

>> but he lacked the suitable investment necessary to become a professional race driver and had virtually given up on racing

Actually, it seems that he had physically given up, and virtually taken up racing.

        -dZ.

Re:Error in the summary!

[dzfoo]

Insightful? Wow. I was aiming at "+0 Funny", but I won't complain.

Thanks, mods! I hope at the very least that you got a chuckle out of the comment, if not downright "insight".

      -dZ.

Re:Error in the summary!

[dzfoo]

You're, of course, right. But once again, Whoosh!

        dZ>

Almost the Oblig. Guitar Hero Post

[germansausage]

No, not the one where some guy sneers "Why don't you man up and get a real guitar instead of playing with a plastic toy."

I actually did start learning to play a real guitar after playing guitar hero. What inspired me was not the thought that a real guitar would be cool (I already knew that). What I learned from guitar hero was that even though I sucked horribly at it at first, after about three months of playing just about every night for a half hour, I was starting to get reasonably good at it. I am now practicing every night on a real guitar. I still suck horribly at it, but I now have the hope that with steady practice I will improve.

Re:Almost the Oblig. Guitar Hero Post

[Icegryphon]

I still suck horribly at it, but I now have the hope that with steady practice I will improve.

Powercords and palm mutes make everything sound better.
Anywhoo-what type of setup do you have?
Always perfered humbucker pickups the most.
Miss my Ibanez, ;_;

Re:Almost the Oblig. Guitar Hero Post

[gander666]

Amplification and distortion also help make you sound awesome.

Re:Almost the Oblig. Guitar Hero Post

[germansausage]

Right now, my sister's samick dreadnought acoustic. With the action so high I can stick a cigarrete under the strings at the 5th fret (well, almost). But under the Christmas tree is going to be a metallic red HHS Strat. "It will be mine. Oh yes, it will be mine."

Re:I wouldn't sponsor him

[ThogScully]

Racers who drive with a constant fear of crashing probably tend to crash more, or at the very least, don't get sponsorships. From experience, I can say that you cannot push a car to its limits worrying about crashing.
-N

my son did this...

[spywhere]

...with an M1A1 Abrahms tank. He was a hard-core FPS gamer, and he joined the Army at 18. They tested him to see what his skills were, which included a turn in the Army's tank simulator.
As he tells it, he was in there a long time -- much longer than the recruits ahead of him had been. When he came out, the room was full of people, including officers, who were all staring at him.
He asked, "What's everybody looking at?
Someone replied, "A tanker, son... you just beat the highest score on that thing."

For his expertise, he was rewarded with an all-expense-paid trip to Baghdad in 2003...

Re:my son did this...

[forgot_my_username]

WOW !!!
I hear Baghdad has lots of cool babes, and beaches.

what... oh .... never mind.

I hope your son is all right.
Honestly, that sucks.

See.,.. playing video games, can be hazardous!

Someone replied, "A tanker, son... you just beat the highest score on that thing." For his expertise, he was rewarded with an all-expense-paid trip to Baghdad in 2003...

Re:my son did this...

[Carbaholic]

For his expertise, he was rewarded with an all-expense-paid trip to Baghdad in 2003...

I'd rather be a tanker than regular infantry any day of the week!

Re:my son did this...

[DeadDecoy]

That's debatable. The problem with tanks is that they're giant moving targets. I once had a history teacher in 'nam who would talk about the perks and perils of being in a tank. On the plus side, you get AC on hot days and a CD player to listen to music. On the negative side, once you're in combat, people are firing anti-armor explosives at your ass, such that the tank becomes an instant-coffin. The baddies in the US's current war probably do not have the sophistication in chemistry to develop the right kinds of explosives to crack armor, like a full-fledged nation. However, I bet tanker's experience a similar level of danger as the foot soldiers, just that they have rockets whizzing over their head instead of bullets.

Re:my son did this...

[hansamurai]

As he tells it, he was in there a long time -- much longer than the recruits ahead of him had been. When he came out, the room was full of people, including officers, who were all staring at him.
He asked, "What's everybody looking at?
Someone replied, "The Buggers, son... you just wiped out the Buggers."

Re:my son did this...

[elrous0]

That's very similar to the story of how I was chosen to become a futuristic super-soldier fighting off an alien invasion.

Re:my son did this...

[rally2xs]

>For his expertise, he was rewarded with an all-expense-paid trip to Baghdad in 2003...

And in his tank, it goes something like this:

"Yea tho I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil...
for I am the biggest, badest, mother******er in the valley..."

Re:my son did this...

[elrous0]

You had a history teacher when you were in Vietnam?

Re:my son did this...

[Anonymous Coward]

The army had CD players in tanks during the Vietnam war??

Re:my son did this...

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

You had a history teacher when you were in Vietnam?

Most kids who go to school in Vietnam have history teachers.

Re:my son did this...

[DeadDecoy]

Sorry, the AC (maybe it was just a fan) thing was true, the CD thing came in when I was watching a special about tankers in Desert Storm. Suffice to say, the tanks provided certain creature comforts but at the expense of being an exposed target.

Re:my son did this...

[hairykrishna]

Not really anymore. I don't know about the Abrahms but we've only lost one Challenger 2 and that was to FF from another Challenger 2. One near Basra took ~70 RPG hits and only sustained fairly minor damage. If I had to be sent to Iraq I'd take being a tank jockey over wandering around as a foot soldier any day.

Re:my son did this...

[shutdown -p now]

The baddies in the US's current war probably do not have the sophistication in chemistry to develop the right kinds of explosives to crack armor, like a full-fledged nation.

RPG-7 is still good enough to deal with an Abrams (or any other modern tank), you just need a lot of them if it has reactive armor on it, but the later is still not impenetrable. For a similar example with Russian tanks - during the first war in Chechnya, Chechens often assigned up to 10 people to target the same tank - eventually one or two would hit the spot in reactive armor that is already "used up", and that would be it. That's not even mentioning tandem rounds etc (which are all also available for RPG-7).

There are also guided AT missiles. Sounds complicated, but in reality the old mid-70 Soviet stuff was already decent (if the AT crews don't mind exposing themselves to risk), and they were provided in large quantities to e.g. Syria and other such wonderful countries (and then, quite possibly, partially sold elsewhere).

In short, a lone tank is still a coffin on threads in any urban setting (or, really, anywhere enemy AT infantry has sufficient cover to come close enough). That's why tanks are always supported by infantry!

Re:my son did this...

[spywhere]

Indeed, he was.

Re:my son did this...

[DerekLyons]

Beating the high score isn't all that impressive really - it's a testing for aptitude, not for ability. As such, the simulator scores average pretty abysmal.
 
Heck, my average grades in my Navy training were around 99.90... Then I got to the Fleet and found out how little high scores in school had to do with the real world of operations.

Re:my son did this...

[Zak3056]

RPG-7 is still good enough to deal with an Abrams (or any other modern tank), you just need a lot of them if it has reactive armor on it, but the later is still not impenetrable

With a modern main battle tank, I think the best you can hope to accomplish with something as small as an RPG is to disable it by attacking the weak points (like the treads) and then figure out a way to set it on fire. Reactive armor is NOT the primary protection against the shaped charge, things like composite armor and depleted uranium are, and this stuff can (and has) stood up to kinetic penetrators and real anti-tank missiles at close range.

Re:my son did this...

[shutdown -p now]

With a modern main battle tank, I think the best you can hope to accomplish with something as small as an RPG is to disable it by attacking the weak points (like the treads) and then figure out a way to set it on fire. Reactive armor is NOT the primary protection against the shaped charge, things like composite armor and depleted uranium are, and this stuff can (and has) stood up to kinetic penetrators and real anti-tank missiles at close range.

RPG-29 was successfully used against T-90, Merkava, Challeneger-2, and Abrams in the field. Granted, that is more advanced than the usual RPG-7 (though by no means unavailable), and the round in question was tandem. But still, this shows that man-portable weapons are as dangerous to tanks as they ever were.

The reasoning is actually very simple: it's much more expensive to increase and improve armor than it is to increase and improve the charge. After all, armor has to shield large parts of the tank, while charge only has to penetrate a single point.

Also, of course, how well the armor stands up against kinetic penetrators is not particularly relevant to how it will stand up to a shaped charge. Composite armor - like Chobham - is pretty decent against older-generation RPGs, but, as shown by my earlier reference, it's still not invincible. Also, Soviet/Russian tanks use similar techs in T-80, which didn't prevent Chechens from blowing up a lot of them in Grozny, even with just RPG-7. It may stand up well to one or two hits, but repeated hits to exact same point will eventually reduce the efficiency of the inner layer to the point where it won't disperse the particle stream sufficiently, and then - boom.

Re:my son did this...

[spywhere]

I wasn't in the military, so I can't argue... but, if you have time, look up what 3-7 Cavalry and its Apache Troop did on the way to Baghdad. They were a truly elite squadron, and they had an infinite kill ratio in Iraq: they slaughtered thousands of Fedayeen, Republican Guard, and everyone else who got in their way... and lost nobody.
This book gives a pretty good accounting of it. It confirms the harrowing stories he told about their drive up the Euphrates.

some gamers also drive cars

[fantomas]

Aged 22, he's probably also got 4 or 5 years experience of driving real cars on the road. He's probably picked up "his most basic driving habits" in that time in reall life. Maybe his advanced race track driving skills he's picked up from games rather than real life, but if he's not picked up the most basic skills by now driving his car round town and to the race track he'd have probably been in a wheelchair or prison by now...

Re:I wouldn't sponsor him

[Locke2005]

Having done a tandem skydive myself, I'm fairly certain I would never have gone through the door of that airplane without somebody strapped to my back pushing me. Rationally your brain knows the difference, but I still think it's a bad idea to get into your car and drive after playing a game like Excite Truck, where you are rewarded for crashing into other vehicles. Again, bad habits are a hard thing to break. I don't think this is an insurmountable problem, but I do think he's going to have to work really hard to retrain his mind.

Re:I wouldn't sponsor him

[CannonballHead]

I can say that you cannot push a car to its limits worrying about crashing.

But can you drive said car to its limits?

Or were you referring to pushcart driving/Cool Runnings? ;)

Re:I wouldn't sponsor him

[techess]

All I know is that after my friends watched me play Carmageddon they would never let me drive.

correlation is not causation

[SuperBanana]

I happen to know for a fact that the current SCCA prosolo and solo2 national champion has played GT extensively as well.

Maybe because they enjoy car games. Playing Gran Turismo doesn't do jack shit to make you a better driver. It won't make you a better racer, either, since you're not racing against anyone else who actually knows how to drive/race, and racing isn't just about driving. It's about preparation, conditions, your competitors.

I have friends who are driving instructors for car clubs and they teach at High Performance Driver Education events. The most dreaded words out of a student's mouth are "I really like playing Gran Turismo." Even worse: "I know how to drive. I play lots of Gran Turismo." I heard a student say that, and then the next day on his very first session (in the novice run group), he spun and plonked his shiny VW coupe right into the armco on the 3rd or 4th turn. His 'reset button' was spending the rest of the day in the pits trying to repair the damage enough to drive the car the next day / drive it home.

Despite what the makers of GT say about "realistic physics", there's nothing realistic about the games. Driving at speed is all about feedback from sensations; the sensations and torque from the wheel, the sensations from your butt as you feel what the car's chassis does (you know that really awkward feeling you get the back of your car starts to slide in the snow/rain, aka oversteer?), forces of acceleration, noises from the tires.

NONE, repeat, NONE of that exists in a video game. They'll make tire noise, sure- but there's no difference in GT between humming tires (good) and squealing/screaming tires (bad). Yes, you can tell how loaded a tire is based off how bad the noise sounds.

If you want to get into racing, it's really not that hard or that expensive. The solution is as close as your nearest gokart track. Many F1 drivers started in karts, especially shifter karts. Don't laugh- a shifter kart is absurdly fast. Spend a few minutes on Youtube searching on "shifter kart". You can also take your own car to any SCCA autocross with a minimum amount of preparation and expense.

Hell, the cost of one high-performance driver education event is probably less than the cost of a game console, wheel/pedal set, and game. Hell of a lot more fun, too.

Re:correlation is not causation

[ID000001]

That is really untrue. Numbers of racer have made improvement in real life racing skill due to playing video games. The one I remember was when GT2 first came out, a couple of pro racer took a shot at it in Laguna Seca. They notices their mistake a little easier due to replay and new preceptive. And made improvement in real life from those video game experience

Can't find the references right now, but I can tell you stimulation will definitely help. Saying they don't do jack shit because they are missing some element from real life is a bit on the ignorance side.

Re:Top Gear Anyone?

[jggimi]

Yes, here's a compressed (10 min) version of the Top Gear segment from Laguna Seca posted to youtube comparing the real vehicle and track to the virtual vehicle and track.

Real gee forces, anyone? Real surfaces, real suspensions and tires? Fascinating segment.

Me too!!

[meta-monkey]

This totally reminds me of the time I was recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against Xur and the Ko-Dan armada!

this means nothing

[SuperBanana]

The US Armed forces have a history of loving "war games" and they're largely dog and pony shows. In more than one case, the US forces playing the "enemy" side, if they defeated the "friendly" side, had their capabilities reduced and the game re-run until the friendly side won. In one case, they finally had to strip the enemy commander of his radio communications. So he used runners- civil war technology. He still won.

The fact that the "simulator" actually had a high score leads me to strongly believe that it wasn't a real simulator. Video games have high scores. Simulators are there to provide an environment for evaluation (usually by a very experienced human, not a computer.) I suspect the game is merely designed to expose recruits to all the fun stuff (shooting the baddies) but none of the bad stuff (does the simulator include diesel smoke, deafening noise, etc?) and see how interested/driven they are. The more driven you seem to be, the less they have to grease the wheels to get you to sign up.

Re:this means nothing

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

The more driven you seem to be, the less they have to grease the wheels to get you to sign up.

Tell me about it. A close friend's nephew was infatuated with a sergeant's daughter. His own father is a reasonably senior engineer who builds aircraft engines, so they are solidly upper-middle class with no fiscal need to sign up like most do. He dropped out of college to join the army as a grunt. He didn't even ask for any of the signing bonuses available to him - worth up to $30K.
Why? Because the girl cheated on him and, though he's not able to admit it to anyone, he needed to 'win her back.'

Re:this means nothing

[adamchou]

Video games have high scores. Simulators are there to provide an environment for evaluation (usually by a very experienced human, not a computer.)

How can you evaluate someone if you don't have a base set of marks to compare them to? Translating how well someone does on certain exercises into numbers is a score and it would definitely be required if the Army wants to separate the men from the boys. Its even more important for training programs if they want to see how their recruits are improving or not.

Re:this means nothing

[Chris Mattern]

In more than one case, the US forces playing the "enemy" side, if they defeated the "friendly" side, had their capabilities reduced and the game re-run until the friendly side won.

Absolutely false. Read up on the "Red Flag" exercises. The "enemy" is an elite unit whose *only* duty is to perform as the enemy in these exercises. They almost always win, since this is all they do. This is expected, and desired, as it's expected that the training unit will learn much more from having the crap beat out of it.

Re:this means nothing

[tibman]

What he said is not false. We typically reduce OPFOR assets until the "good guys" win. This win is mostly for confidence building. OPFOR usually know the terrain better because they are constantly training on it, that gives them a huge advantage.

A trainee or student will not learn if he is always dead or being assaulted by more than he can deal with.

You are right though that OPFOR are usually the SME (Subject Matter Experts) in their given fields.

Re:I wouldn't sponsor him

[IndustrialComplex]

The brain knows the difference. I've met quite a few people that have done tandem skydives and felt fine, but froze up scared when they did their first non-tandem skydive where they knew they'd have to deal with everything themselves.

I do flight testing. Let me tell you there is a HUGE difference between video games and real life.

And by Huge, I mean spending a god awful walking up and down a runway looking for potential FOD.

Some skills can transfer

[Temujin_12]

It is important to note that the skills (ie: muscle memory) involved in gaming are different from real life. Getting good at Guitar hero just means you have the skill for strumming/timing along with pressing 4 buttons. The muscle memory and training to go from 4 buttons to a real guitar is very different.

That said, some skills can transfer (especially conceptual skills). For instance, last winter I was trying to get up an icy hill that curves. Halfway up the car in front of me stalled and veered off to the side. Meanwhile another car started coming down the hill in the other lane. I turned away to avoid the car that stalled in front of me but that swung the rear of my car towards him. Without thinking, I immediately turned the other direction to control the back end of my car so that it avoided the stalled car while also avoided the car coming the other direction. I managed to control it enough to miss both of them while still making it up the hill.

This was the first time I ever had to control a skid like this and the only other related experience I've had with this is controlling skids in racing games.

Now, I don't think that this skill means I can now power slide through corners, but some portion of that skill has transferred.

Re:Some skills can transfer

[Langfat]

It is important to note that the skills (ie: muscle memory) involved in gaming are different from real life. Getting good at Guitar hero just means you have the skill for strumming/timing along with pressing 4 buttons. The muscle memory and training to go from 4 buttons to a real guitar is very different.

Pfff, you're obviously still on MEDIUM. I've graduated to ALL FIVE buttons which I'm told is EXACTLY like playing a REAL GUITAR.

Re:Some skills can transfer

[Nicolay77]

Do you play with a gamepad or with a steering wheel with pedals and stick?

Re:Some skills can transfer

[Reapy]

Agree here, I had a similar experience when younger. I had played driving games a ton, but didn't have much real driving experience. I was going down a straight road with a road on my right. It had cars waiting on my road to make a left into that turn, and cars waiting to come out. Well this woman in a mini van on the right street, stops, looks, then apparently looks through my car coming, and pulls out about 30ish feet in front of me while I'm going 40. I slammed on brakes, realized I was still going to hit her, turned to go around her, which put me on a head on with the guy waiting to make a left, turned back into my lane to avoid him, and THEN the car started fishtailing madly as i brought it down to the side of the road.

Would like to thank ABS and mad video game playing for no one dieing that day as I either was going to drive side impact that woman or slam head on to the other guy if anything went bad.

Not surprising

[genner]

Half the racers in the BMW CCCA own a PS3 loaded with Grand Turismo.

Hmmm

[edxwelch]

I remeber seeing a Top Gear episode where they tried to see if driving on the real track was as easy on the Playstation and the result was: no. Jeramy drove the same car on the same track and could not get a time that was even close to the Playstation time.

Re:Hmmm

[gregthebunny]

And don't forget that in a videogame, you're instinctively much more likely to take greater risks, where as in real life, you're much more careful to not cause damage when driving aggressively with $125,000 worth of driving equipment.

You sir, have apparently never watched Top Gear.

Re:Hmmm

[^_^x]

He could not do it himself, as he's not a pro racer. I believe he later got someone who was, and found the same thing that most such comparisons do - that the GT time was a little bit faster than the real one because push it as you may, you don't want to die in a real car.

He actually once wrote a glowing review for the Sunday Times. They've taken it down, but this forum post mirrors it:
http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/showthread.php?s=f010e07b0f76cff17028b036c7e7d519&t=21445

Re:Hmmm

[petermgreen]

I have watched loads of top gear and while they do sometimes do some car smashing (or bus smashing or campervan smashing or....) they also seem to be adult enough to understand what they are and aren't allowed to smash up. Expensive cars received on loan definately fall into the not allowed to be smashed up category.

Re:Hmmm

[penguinchris]

I think he was making a joke, but if you've seen the episode in question I think you'll agree the point stands - Jeremy was hesitant to push himself and the car to the limit from fear of his own safety before fear of doing anything to the car.

I'm sure that was in his mind as well, but I'm guessing he's quite used to that feeling from thrashing all the most expensive cars in the world around their test track all the time so it's not as huge a concern as it would be for anyone else.

If I took an expensive car around a track, yes, I would probably be more concerned about doing something to the car than doing something to myself, but I think Jeremy is past that phase (and you know that they must have ridiculous insurance policies).

Re:I wouldn't sponsor him

[ThogScully]

I was alluding to the fact that I have driven a car to its limits and exceeded them. Now, I have a lot of difficulty competing since then. It's a good excuse for not being a very good driver I guess, but the distinction is unimportant.

The best drivers really have to combine a knowledge of where that line is as well as the bravery to drive right on it.
-N

Looks like a fit guy to me

[devleopard]

Racing is very physically demanding.

So if you're 275 pounds and keep a bag of Doritos next to your PS3, probably *not* gonna go pro.

Also, he was pursuing an MBA. So he's pretty intelligent, and knows how to accomplish something. So if your PS3 is in a room in your parents' house, or if you go home and get your game on when your manager at McDonald's tells you it's okay to leave, you're probably not going pro either.

Re:Looks like a fit guy to me

[gregthebunny]

So if you're 275 pounds and keep a bag of Doritos next to your PS3, probably *not* gonna go pro.

I don't think anyone would do this. The bag would collect a lot of heat from the PS3. Everyone knows warm Doritos are less appetizing than room-temperature ones. Ever leave a bag of them in your car during the summer? Yuck.

Re:Looks like a fit guy to me

[Fuzuli]

Best signature ever mate!! I'll even pretend that I did not read the MBA and intelligent thing...

Amusing headline . . .

[ThiagoHP]

The first thing I thought: "Gran Turismo" gamer becomes "Pro Race Driver". TOCA Race Driver (formerly known as Pro Race Driver in US) is a series of games that is a direct competitor of the Gran Turismo.

Hold on...

[cf18]

Would this also give some ammo to folks who link criminals to violence games?

Isn't this kinda like saying

[Cornwallis]

I played Milton Bradley's "Operation" as a kid and now I'm a surgeon??? BFD.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

I do believe alot of you are just wanting to rant and not actually thinking about the article before you post. Yes yes I know you want to sound all suavely sarcastically intelligent and like a world experinced person in your comments but your not.

The article nor does the guy say "I became a professional race driver by only play gran turismo, it taught me how to race like a pro and until I played the game Ive never even seen a car before".

All the article is saying is he loved professional racing so much and because he loved it he played gran turismo because as well know, a terrifc racing simulator game. Was just saying he loved racing so much that he not only wanted to do it but played games about it and had a passion for it and nothing else.

So pull your heads out of your collective asses because it doesnt say his racing skill was all thanks for gran turismo.

Nothing unique to Gran Turismo

[MaWeiTao]

I realize Sony loves gushing over Gran Turismo's purported realism, especially considering how long it's taking to get the game to market. But pretty much any good racing game will produce the same results. I recall reading a few years back about how Formula 1 drivers would sometimes play some F1 game, I forget which one, to better familiarize themselves with the courses.

And for a game trumpeted as the "real" driving simulator it's quite a number of quirks in it's physics engine. Well, judging from GT5 Prologue which fundamentally feels like the previous games in the series. And based on gameplay videos GT5 doesn't look like it will be all that different. This means collisions will still be poorly handled, cars will be incapable of going airborne. Suspension and handling never felt all that convincing either. In professional mode, with all the assists turned off it's always felt like the cars are all driving around on winter tires. And then to compensate for the quirks they have to do things like add these obnoxious time penalties.

I had the opportunity to play Forza 3 recently and found that game to provide a far more fulfilling and convincing driving experience. But the game I've played in recent years that I've found to be most true to life is Live for Speed. Those guys have even managed to account for tire flex, which is really cool. The things that hurt that game are the lack of real, compelling cars and the somewhat outdated graphics. Nevertheless, if I were going to recommend a game that would provide the most authentic driving experience, that would be the one.

GT5 certainly does have the nicest graphics, and the largest lineup of cars. Although there are some very glaring omissions like Porsche. It's inexcusable that other developers can manage to get Porsches in their game but a developer with the weight of Sony behind them is incapable of doing the same.

I have no patience whatsoever for arcade racers so GT5 still appeals to me from that standpoint. Unfortunately, I suspect the bulk of the time was spent rendering the several dozen Daihatsu's in painstaking detail as opposed to making real improvements to the physics engine. Even vehicle damage seems to consist of nothing more than bumpers falling off and doors unrealistically flying open. But unfortunately I don't think the payoff is going to justify the excessive amount of time spent developing the game. It would probably make more sense to tout the game as an automotive encyclopedia.

Ultimately, I don't doubt at all that any good, realistic game provides some level of benefit in the real world. I would definitely exclude most of EA's racing games from that list. And this isn't a guarantee at all. There's a lot that requires experience in a real car. And there are plenty of kids out there for whom driving games have been no help at all.

Re:Nothing unique to Gran Turismo

[gregthebunny]

The difference between Forza and GT is that Gran Turismo's licensing tests actually teach the player some proper driving techniques. IANAPRCD, but I have participated in several autocross events and placed quite high (top four) in each event with little autocross driving experience. Most of what I was able to do I learned from years of playing Gran Turismo.

Re:Nothing unique to Gran Turismo

[MattSausage]

FYI, Forza 3 also accounts for tire flex. Forza 2 did as well. Hell, if this kid had played a real simulator like Forza instead of somebody's 7 year old copy of GT he might have.. you know... done even better... than first... .. so there.

Re:Nothing unique to Gran Turismo

[^_^x]

I have Forza 3 and GT5P at home. I can't take Forza's physics seriously as long as grass bogs you down like wet clay, slowing you faster than your own brakes could - and orange paint seems to have a similar, maybe even more pronounced effect. Grass stopped being a mystery substance in GT4.

I also have to wonder why I can take a car like an Exige or an R32 and just nail the handbrake once the guideline turns red, then drift all the way around a corner when I'm using a controller to drive. Any other sim would kick my ass without mercy if I tried that, and I make no claims to having that level of skill. I have all assists but ABS off, and damage modelling all the way up.

I found suspension tuning in GT to be pretty good, if a bit too technical for non-mechanics. In F3 I've yet to actually notice a difference from suspension upgrades and stiffening, but since it's affordable, I still do it.

The aerodynamics I've seen in Forza so far seem to boil down to a direct traction increase at all speeds - I won a tuned Viper with a huge spoiler, but the way the tires stick to the road, even from a standstill, you'd think it was pushing 100hp/ft-lbs. In Gran Turismo you can actually face the dilemma of braking and losing downforce vs keeping speed and downforce up as you round a corner. It'll even model the wind sound and doppler effect from a spectator's perspective.

I have screenshots I took from playing GT4 where my cars are a good 5-10 feet in the air, so they will go airborne - they just won't be doing barrel rolls. They don't fly several feet above the track as they sometimes do in F3. You can still run into the situation where you're hard on the throttle, fly over a ripple in the road, and spin the wheels so they burn out when you land and skew you to one side.

The damage model GT demonstrated looks about as good as the one that shipped with Forza 3 - which is basically the same as TOCA 3 - big chunks of the body, and a few key components have overall hit points, and look gradually more damaged as they lose HP. If you gently grind your front bumper on someone's rear for a minute, your whole hood will look scuffed up and crunched in as if you'd tried to take a shortcut under a semi trailer. In GT5's damage amounts to a few big cosmetic zones, and a few key components, then it will be on par with Forza 3 (and admittedly, 1, as long as sneezing doesn't trash your alignment.)

I also wonder about F3's AI as it seems really rubber banded. In many races I'll blow by every one in the first lap, and then run another 5 laps with them 20m behind me, even if I do better or worse than the first lap. I do however MUCH prefer it to GT's now slightly enhanced slotcar AI that will take its line whether you're in the way or not. You can leave them way behind and lap them, but they have the self-preservation instinct of a bowling ball.

When it's all said and done, I think Forza 3 is much more fun. It has much more to offer as a game, where as you said, GT is an encyclopedia; GTPSP is so sterile it doesn't even feel like a game. F3 is also far better at giving you a grey area between being in and out of control. For realism, I'd say it's fighting with Need for Speed: Shift, not Gran Turismo 5, and NFS seems to be winning as far as I've played.

Re:Nothing unique to Gran Turismo

[khchung]

cars will be incapable of going airborne.

I don't know which GT version you played, but I remember quite well that in GT4, there is a course (maybe Seattle or SF?) that has a downhill portion with step-like contour, and the car definitely went airborne between the steps. I remember very well that once that happened, before the car hit the ground again, the steering wheel has completely no effect.

Can't say about the other aspects though.

Re:Nothing unique to Gran Turismo

[AbRASiON]

What a refreshing post and bravo.
I've tried saying the same thing several times across the web and the GT fanboys are relentless people, it's total idiocy.
Since the last full GT game, Turn 10 have released ALL THREE Forza games and the third one is bloody, bloody good.

Furthermore, yes the stupid physics (And the noises, tire squeel especially) seem recycled from GT4 into GT5 Prologue. They are adding WRC, F1, Nascar, rumoured motorcycles to GT5 yet ultimately they are just diluting the pot. Can they really get decent physics across such a spectrum? I doubt it personally.

That team have been consistently arrogant, refusing to even LOOK at the competition (admitted in an interview) because they simply are 'the leaders' in their mind. Meanwhile Forza has improved on GT in almost every conceivable way now.
Just to put the full weight of my post here, I am a HUGE PS3 fan, I mostly dislike the 360, I dislike paying for live and I found the PS3 a pleasant surprise. I still bought a 360, JUST for Forza 3. and to be honest, it's worth it.

Just in time for Christmas

[bickle]

What a heartwarming story....just in time for the Christmas shopping season. :P

Although this advertisment would me much more effective if GT was actually available.

The army and navy proved this already

[hesaigo999ca]

The army and navy proved this fact already, they use video games as teaching tools, for helping in the development of their soldiers.
Too much money would be spent on tactical environments that duplicate the battle field, never mind also the fact their can always be accidents in training exercises, so they prefer to stimulate the nervous system to these types of situations through virtual means.

The next step to this military style tactic, is to include visors and command gloves that are able to actually help the user with the scenario. If he is about to whip out a hand grenade and say throw it improperly, which in a game is always done by the machine representing the gamer...then glove would capture slight hand movements that could falter the throw, hence make the grenade land a little too close and blow everybody up..."sort of thing"

I am glad he was given a chance to drive even though he had no real background or experience, it shows there are a few people out there that are capable of seeing talent through other means then on the job training.

All I know is that

[Aexia]

they need to send Knife Guy and Double Shotgun Dude to Afghanistan and this will be all over in no time.

The results speak for themselves.

Re:Hmm

[HogGeek]

"you aren't going to last long"

Pun intended?

Re:I wouldn't sponsor him

[MikeBabcock]

I play Burnout Paradise all the time and purposely wreck the car just to watch the fantastic roll overs. I've never felt the need or desire to do the same thing in real life.

While its normal in children, there are names for the brain defects in adults who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Ender's Game

[camperdave]

The simulations used to learn how to fly a UAV are indescernible from actually flying a UAV.

Sound's like Ender's Game. Ender was, to his mind, fighting a simulated battle. However, he was controlling actual fighting units.

Ñ

[homunq]

Ordoñez, with an ñ.

Aviation has done it too!

[Anonymous Coward]

Think back of all those flight simulators.

Somebody even came up with statistics proving that people who had used flight simulators at home would pass the license test faster.

plenty of college kids get into racing for cheap

[ProfBooty]

Join a spec series like spec e30, spec miata or the honda challenge. You can build a car for way under 10k and drive it to the series.

Heck join lemons and run a car for only $500.

http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/

Gran Turismo doesn't feel much like a day doing laps at the track anyways. Even with force feedback you are driving a car with an implement that has the same steering ratio as a go kart but trying to model a full steering rack. You don't get the same sensations that tell you when you are about to spin and when you are just backing off enough to throttle steer. Tyre noise still isn't quite right, on the track at least with street tyres you can distinguish by sound hen you will loose adhesion and when you still have grip.

We won't buy this lie!!!

[Fuzuli]

Yeah, sure, play a driving game and you can become a pro race driver. A whole generation of geeks spent ages with leisure suit larry, and what did we get in real life???

Great story. Fake news.

[v(*_*)vvvv]

Seriously people.

How many young aspiring racing drivers haven't played Grand Turismo?

Great story, but this isn't news.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

cool

[Entropy997]

I think it's awesome that a gamer has actually gone from racing games to the real thing. I truly believe that playing games has honed his skills in what to expect from some basic driving physics. At the same time, however, that doesn't mean that a potential expert marksman will be ready to fire an automatic weapon immediately. For those who don't play games, a game can teach the concept of recoil, the idea of burst fire vs. full auto, bullet drop, bullet delay/realistic target leading (Frontlines' delays may be strikingly realistic), sweeping corners like the SWAT team, etc. But they will never teach you how to actually deal with recoil or the adrenaline rush of active combat (I wonder if basic training even truly prepares you for that). This may sound funny, but the spread patterns in Counterstrike are actually very likely wider than in real life. With the exception of a real AK-47 that actually limits you to a 2 round burst followed up by single shots.