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Sci-Fi Author Peter Watts Beaten, Charged During Border Crossing
JoeGee writes "On December 8th, Canadian sci-fi author Peter Watts, author of the Rifters trilogy and Blindsight, was crossing the US/Canadian border at Port Huron, Michigan when he was involved in an altercation with US Border Patrol agents. According to Watts, he was beaten, left half-naked in a cold cell, and finally dumped on the Canadian side of the border with no coat. A legal consultant from the Electronic Frontier Foundation was successful in helping a civil rights lawyer in Michigan free Watts. Watts faces US charges of assaulting a federal officer. Based on the accounts, one can assume Watts did so by hitting the officer's hand with his face. If convicted, Watts faces two years in a US Federal prison."
They should give the border patrol the Nobel Peace Prize for keeping America safe.
So, did they just forget about the other mandatory bullshit charge, resisting arrest?
If he assaulted the federal officer, he deserves what he gets. Being a "sci-fi author" doesn't give him the right to break the law.
He back in Canada, do u think he would come back to the states to face charge? if they try to extradite him I'm sure the Canadian judge will laugh in the US face for wasting the courts time.
I'm struggling, but don't worry when i get it, it'll be electric
on the other hand, this may be another victory in the war on tourism.
What most people don't realize is ANY "unwanted" contact with any officer or agent of a government entity is assault. Tapping them on the shoulder when they're yelling at your friend would constitute assault on an officer. Something as innocent as brushing the agent's hand away would provoke that charge, which I suspect is the case here.
Wake up people, our laws are broken.
It sounds like the facts aren't all in yet, so let's not leap to conclusions. We're hearing the account of Cory Doctorow -- who in his novel "Little Brother" had an obvious axe to grind against Homeland Security and law enforcement, to the point of suggesting "9/11 was an inside job". (Says one of the leaflets dropped by the novel's heroic protesters.) We're also hearing second-hand from Watts and the other people in the car. We're not yet hearing the guards' account. Maybe Doctorow et. al. are completely right, but let's not assume so right off the bat, eh?
The Doctorow account quotes Watts saying that he got out of his car when questioned (mistake #1), then refused the order to get back in (mistake #2). No, of course that doesn't justify a beating. It just suggests we don't have the whole story.
Revive the Constitution.
prevented the millennial bomber. No small thing.
We visited Canada this summer and our experience with the US border patrol when we were returning home leads me to entirely believe the story as told by Watts. I've honestly had better and more pleasant experiences with the East German border patrol in the mid-80s.
In a mature society, "civil servant" is semantically equal to "civil master." - Robert Heinlein
Never understimate the power of human stupidity -Lazarus Long
To the idiots this concerns:
How do you honestly expect Obama to pull all of the troops out of Iraq with the snap of his finger? It took us years to get all the soldiers and all that crap over there, its gonna take us years to get it back. (Thousands of vehichles, shipping containers, etc etc etc).
And good Ole Afghanistan. IIRC Obama called Afghanistan the justifiable war in his campaign. I don't recall him promising to pull us out of either of these countries in the first year.
So all of you people need to get your heads out of your rears and fucking quit trying to be little bitches.
...but I'm not sure what.
The initial interaction with the officers was most likely his own damn fault. Getting out of the car uninvited is an aggressive act. How were the officers to know whether or not he was a threat. Moreover, the guy is STILL upset and self-righteous over it, so I'd bet that at the time, he wasn't exactly calm and level-headed, either.
But his account of the following hours? There's more to the story that we aren't being told. Frankly, I'm calling bullshit.
Of course, being a sci fi geek he wouldn't have an inflated opinion of himself and a problem with authority, would he? He wouldn't have, say, raised his voice and shoved an officer, and gotten belligerent when they tried to restrain him, right? Of course he didn't resist arrest, did he?
Just imagining the story as I might hear it from someone in fandom...something about just going to help some orphans when for no reason some officer yanks 'em out of their car and beats 'em up...
your huddled masses longing to be free.
But you SF authors better stay the fuck out!
Look guys, this is the same story we hear over and over again. First we need to hear the side of the border guards; secondly, always assume that government officials are assholes. Do what they ask, obey their orders, don't be a smartass - as a result, you will generally speaking be OK.
If you talk back, disobey orders and give them a hard time, crap like this will most likely happen to you because you escalate the situation and make the lives of people who already have miserable jobs more miserable. That's not an excuse, but don't be surprised when stuff like this happens.
Wow, a story about a third-rate,barely heard of sci-fi author is news for nerds??
Doing a simple search of slashdot yields nothing about Peter Watts, why is anything that happens to him relevant to slashdot readers?
I suspect this is just red meat for the typical angry "Fuck the police", authority-hating responses. Its certainly valid in some cases, but I can't think of any reason why the editors are encouraging this with such a flimsy story.
Let's wait for some actual facts, please, before lionizing this guy as a victim.
PS - Government police forces are supported by taxes. Quit voting for the guys who want to raise your taxes if you don't want government thugs to beat you up.
Not only am I raped over $40 in fees just to cross your petty border. You Americans must protect your tourism industry and stop this harassment.
Since quite a few are asking, I figured I'd provide the pertinent sections of TFAs.
According to an update in the Boing Boing article, Watts got out of the car to ask what was happening -- presumably because his car and/or person was being searched. When the officers refused to answer and told him to get back in the car, he asked the question again. At which point he was attacked, his property was seized, and he was asked to waive his Miranda rights.
Sounds like the unfortunate combination of a pissed off officer and a less-that-sympathetic citizen compounded by detectives/officers who get pissed when prisoners refuse to talk. I can empathize with both parties (first and second, not third -- right to remain silent means right to remain silent,) but -- assuming the accuracy of Watts' story -- the assault charge is probably trumped up. Convincing a judge of that is a whole different story.
I got a tweet about this earlier today.
I can't wait to hear what really happened here. It's wouldn't be so outlandish if Watts' version of the story is entirely true, especially with the number of police beatings that get online where the exact same thing has happened (i.e. someone not resisting at all, getting beaten up, and then charged with resisting arrest).
Over 10 years ago now, Indianapolis had the infamous "police street brawl" incident where a group of off duty drunk policemen went around picking fights with guys and harassing women in down town Indianapolis. Everyone that tried to protect women in that situation ended up in jail with a bunch of bruises on resisting arrest charges. I don't believe even one of the cases ever made it to court. Still the police union backed their boys to the very end. I believe they even called the mayor a commie at one point...
Okay, so there are two sides to the story; and the only thing published is a fiction writers. Judging from his blog, there are a lot of people looking for an excuse to be sorry to be American. Here I get to play the other side, who won't say anything because that's the appropriate thing.
He got out of the car during a border crossing, obviously without instruction from law enforcement. That he was half-naked suggests something of the state he was in before he precipitated the altercation. Without video, there's nothing to say he didn't take a swing at the law enforcement, who responded in kind. You never get out of the car when stopped by law enforcement without their explicit say so. There was a time when you could do that; but we've had enough criminals who have attacked that the cops can't take chances. By getting out of the car and refusing to return, he precipitated this event.
Sorry, no sympathy.
What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
I'm not clear on exactly where he was. The articles really don't do a very good job of describing what happened. At the border crossings I am familiar with, there is no barrier on leaving the US. There's a place where you can park and go in if you have some business there (e.g. notifying them that you're leaving the US at the end of a limited term stay), but there is no place where you pull up and are asked questions. Of course, they can close off the lane if they are looking for a fugitive or something, but in normal circumstances you just drive right on through to the Canadian side. So, was he singled out for some reason and pulled over as he left the US?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_TfBbR6L0M (canadian idiot)
I thought everyone knew not to trust Peter Watts.
If slashdot was ran by people without (obvious) agenda, perhaps the headline could read:
"Sci-Fi Author Peter Watts Claims To Be Beaten, Charged During Border Crossing".
Other than that - all is well, though I am ready to bet that either there was more to this story or less. I.e. either he actually did something, for example being a douche and claiming he is a famous sci-fi writer and has a right to cross borders without being searched, certainly his hysterical blog post lends credence to this idea), or perhaps he wasn't beaten and left "half naked" (did the border guards seize his clothes?).
In any case,there is definitely additional information that needs to come to light, and it'd be nice if slashdot did not claim a post of offended party to be statement of fact.
As a Canadian I will never understand why the US is so eager about its boarder security with Canada.
Take a look at a map of North America, we share a huge boarder. If some one wanted to get across undetected, they would go to Calgary, Edmonton, etc. Buy/Rent a off-road vehicle and just drive in across some open fields. It's not hard to figure out.
Boarder security at major ports of entry just pisses everyone off and hurts trade. The most they are going to catch are some teenagers buying pot and Canadian beer. The only real threat at the CAN/US boarder is people bringing handguns into Canada (where they are illegal) and selling them to Toronto street gangs.
Now they are giving a middle aged white guy a hard time? Please, this security theatre has gone too far.
I can't help but wonder about Canadian Health Coverage verses American Health Coverage. Maybe being Renditioned to Canada was the wiser result? Also, this event makes me think that the movie, "Born in East L.A." is proving to be not so whimsical after all.
I am just saying that you can't tar the entire border patrol with one brush. sheesh.
Even under the Obama administration the message to foreigners still seems to be stay away or risk getting beaten and generally abused.
Loose lips lose spit.
Apparently border officers like to beat people up.
http://articles.latimes.com/2004/jul/30/world/fg-tianjin30
inb4 not your personal army
I live in Port Huron, funny to see that as the head line today...
Well they got the order wrong. For resisting arrest it's 1. arrest 2. beat. For an assaulting an officer change they apparently beat you first, then arrest you.
(I defy anyone to take a severe beating without doing SOMETHING that, out of context, could be described as assaulting an officer.)
Come on guys, let's hear it.
"Watts had it coming."
"They were just doing their job."
"He should have kept his mouth shut."
"Sieg Heil!"
You pro-police assholes who jerk off to cop shows and cheer on police brutality have your chance to come out of the woodwork, as you always do, to tell us all how being a cop is so "stressful", and this kind of thing "just happens" from time to time, and we need to "deal with it".
Come on, out with it.
I've travelled between Canada and the US many times and I've never had to go through US border security when LEAVING the US. When did this change?
That said, in all my travels, I've never encountered any US border agent who was anything less than professional, even when under significant stress. Not saying that it cannot happen, but it must be a rare event.
linquendum tondere
There's no "law" at play in this kind of an incident. Thanks to the "War on Terror" and the "War on Drugs", our civil rights are forfeit.
This is called tyranny. We are therefore subjugated and oppressed. We have no real rights. The rights we're told we have are false. The US system of law has degenerated into a system of oppression. It's "might", not "right". Power trumps principle.
"American freedom" is a laughingstock. We are not a nation of justice, truth, and human rights; we are a nation of liars, cheats, and thugs. And we don't have any right to talk about "freedom", or "liberty", given that this is an entire history, not just a bad example or a bad decade, of injustice, oppression, propaganda.
Some people think Chicago didn't get the games because of border issues.
Athletes' families, friends, blabla all getting in the states? What about North Korean athletes? Iranians and so on
Don't know if this incident is true but this is just another one (real or not) that shows how bad the experience can be.
I'd guess everyone at the border is videotaped. Where's the video?
http://www.thetimesherald.com/article/20091211/NEWS01/91211010/1002/Science+fiction+writer+charged+after+bridge+struggle
"Jones said Watts was crossing into Michigan from Point Edward when he was selected at random for a secondary Customs inspection. Watts exited his vehicle "angrily" and border officers began checking the black sport utility vehicle he was driving, Jones said.
Border officers ordered Watts back into the vehicle, and when he refused, officers attempted to handcuff him, Jones said. At that point, Watts began to resist and pull away from the officers "and became aggressive toward officers," Jones said.
Jones said a border officer used pepper spray to subdue Watts. Jones said Watts "choked" an officer during the struggle. "
I'm totally a fan for border patrols... however there should be a shift in their duties. Instead of keeping canadians and mexicans out, they should focus on keeping americans in.
Read what I mean, not what I wrote.
I think I'd like to hear both sides of the story before I decide.
I have crossed the border into Canada several times since 9/11 (when border security changed radically in tone), and based off of my personal experiences with the border guards, I am going to have to just assume that this guy was in the right. They are a bunch of cocksuckers who are rude to their own citizens.
The Canadian border security forces have been polite, intelligent, and professional to me. The US security forces have like behaved surly, angry assholes. If my experiences were any watermark of what was typical, I am amazed we have any Canadian tourists at all.
Don't be a douche bag, know something about what you are talking about. In Washington state, in the past month, we have had 5 police officers killed, assasinated. Earlier today, in Tacoma, we had a scum bag pop out of the trunk of a car, fight with the police, jump into the car and try to run the officer down. So, do you understand while law enforcement in Washington is just a little on edge?
Now, you have a choice:
- A. Continue being an uninformed douche
- B. Admit your failing, and then reform yourself
- C. Try to come up with something snappy instead of an apology
I bet I know which one you will chose.
I think it's retaliation for CBSA officers hassling Amy Goodman. Good on the Border Patrol for defending America's honour.
I make a reasonable middle-class wage by going to work and not spamming blogs with scams.
In the Halifax airport there's a preclearance for crossing the US border. Yes, they still do all of the annoying US border crossing stuff, but they are much much friendlier about it than at other crossings I've been to. Yes, It only really helps if your flying, but it takes so much stress out of flying to the US.
It sounds like the facts aren't all in yet, so let's not leap to conclusions.
Border stations have more security cameras than you can shake a stick at. I guarantee the whole thing was caught on at least one security camera. And the border officers damn well know that both their supervisors, and the courts, will see that video.
Also, Doctorow WAS NOT A WITNESS. He's repeating what the guy told him, which means his information is from the accused, and was initially second-hand, since he then "updates" the story with words directly from the accused.
I heard about it early Wednesday morning in London
Also, accounts (which all appear to have come from the accused) seem to range wildly and aren't consistent on basic facts, despite them coming from the same source- the accused. Some mention him "getting shitkicked" and others simply say he was pepper-sprayed, put on the ground, and arrested. None of the accounts are a specific retelling. He doesn't mention EXACTLY what happened, what was said, etc. Since he's talking at all, that means he hasn't talked to his lawyer (or his lawyer is grossly incompetent, which is what you get for hiring a bunch of EFF lawyers instead of a criminal defense attorney. The first thing you do in something like this is SHUT UP ABOUT IT, unless you want to be hearing it read back in court.)
$5000 says he was told his car was being searched, he started throwing a temper-tantrum, got out of the car, was told to get back in the car, pushed an officer away from him, and that earned him being pepper-sprayed and arrested.
Much as I am not a fan of the border patrol's search powers, nor cops in general- police are usually trained to DE-escalate confrontations, and arrests and the like mean paperwork. Think about how much fun change control request forms and HR paperwork are...cops don't like it any more than you do.
Please help metamoderate.
Wow, no one has blamed Bush yet, what happened to everybody?
Overly officious US border agents, the "Guantanamo halo effect" (ie. there is no rule of law)and the general unfriendliness at the border have caused me to cease visiting the US. I can say that I am far from the only Canadian I know that now refuses to cross the border.
I don't buy there, travel there, spend there, or .... even do business there.
I'm hoping that with the Obama administration I (and others) will become a little more comfortable and eventually travel through/to the US, but I'm far from the only Canadian that feels this way. Pity .... the US in general are great neighbors and great people.
Some people think that's complete bullshit, considering Americans didn't decide the Olympics should go to Rio. Especially considering that Obama himself went to pitch Chicago before the IOC.
"one can assume Watts did so by hitting the officer's hand with his face."
He's lucky he didn't hit the officer's knee with his testicles.
They're called an exit inspection. At random times throughout the day, CBP will post a handful of guards to inspect random vehicles as they are leaving the US. They've been doing it, at least at the border crossings in SE Michigan, for at least 5 years.
I am a Canadian citizen living in Canada.
I have been entering and leaving the USA for pretty much my whole life.
I am 53.
A few years ago I stopped going to the USA, except when absolutely necessary.
One of the most dangerous places I can think of is a US border crossing.
Maurice W. Hilarius Voice: (778) 347-9907
Are you so sure that they have video cameras covering the exit area? One weird thing about this is that the incident happened as he was leaving the US, where you normally don't stop at all.
Uttering the phrase "I won't answer your questions; I want to speak to a lawyer".
Come back when you've researched "threshold inquiry." If police have reasonable suspicion that you're up to something criminal, they can investigate. That includes interviewing you. If you don't cooperate, and they still suspect you of a crime, they can arrest you while they further investigate, for a limited time, until they must charge you.
Given that everything there is legal, if you resist it, yes, you are committing a criminal act. And, whether you are required to present state ID varies state-to-state, but most only require that if you're driving. If you're not driving, you're not required to carry ID.
In MA, you are only required to ANSWER as to your identity- name and address, chiefly, if asked.
Please help metamoderate.
The day that we do pull out of there - which will be with our tails between our legs - will subject the peoples of Afghanistan and nearby states with the same dangers and indignities they'd face if that day were today. The only difference between now and then will be the body count.
I say this in the following capacity:
1. I deployed to a remote Sunni area of Iraq in 2007-08 with lots of rocket, mortar and small-arms fire.
2. I know dozens of people who have deployed to Afghanistan, including close friends.
3. I am at risk of deploying there myself shortly.
That said, I was against this intervention from the start. I am against it now. We should pull out yesterday. We cannot win. Afghanistan has proven intractable to central governance even with 105,000 Soviets there and the will to use armaments that we blanch at. There is no reason to expect that a lesser number of US troops will have any more luck. Only more death lies along that route.
Obama is playing LBJ's game of placating the public to the hilt, but he will understand failure soon enough.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
You're either a lizard, a lizard collaborator, or you're a.....
You know, for Border Guard?
If he's smart, his lawyer has subpoenaed the surveillance camera footage before it's miraculously "lost". If they claim there isn't footage I'd have someone out there photographing the camera that was pointed where he was at when the incident took place cause I guarantee there was a camera recording the incident, they have camera's all over those places and half of them are hidden/non obvious.
The other thing I would do is take out ad's on both sides of the border in the paper asking for witnesses to come forward. If his account is correct he shouldn't have a problem beating the charges provided they can locate a witness or video, and with them he's got a slam dunk civil rights suit against DOHS. I'd also take out a civil suit against the border guards directly that the government will be forced to defend, and if not you get the pleasure of going after their personal assets as well.
The east german border guards also didn't get shot at routinely. Look at it from the border guard's perspective. Armed asshole is being abrasive. Armed asshole gets out of the car to assault you. Armed asshole refuses when you try to de-escalate the situation by telling him to get back in the car. Armed asshole gets mouthy and assaults you (that's verbally accosts you, to the ignorant on slashdot). Armed asshole is now a criminal. Armed asshole reaches for his weapon. Fight on.
The cops must assume that everyone is armed until frisked. That's the only way to stay alive. I'm sorry you're perception is that the border patrol is a bunch of bullies, but their perceptive is a little more rude and first person. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hPSwshFPzVfadMmjIwIckSRrKxswD9C3FN1O2 is the most recent conviction, but hardly as rare as the news makes it out to be.
Well if he was dumb enough to do that then he deserves what he got.
Here's a recently posted article that includes the government's side of the story. It seems to back up Watt's account that the border guards overreacted violently. "A Canadian science fiction writer is facing a felony charge after police said he assaulted a U.S. Customs and Border Patrol officer and resisted arrest at the Blue Water Bridge. But the writer, Peter Watts of Toronto, wrote on his blog that he was “punched in the face, pepper-sprayed, sh*t-kicked, handcuffed, thrown wet and half-naked into a holding cell for three (profanity deleted) hours, thrown into an even colder jail cell overnight, arraigned, and charged with assaulting a federal officer, all without access to legal representation (although they did try to get me to waive my Miranda rights. Twice.).” Neither Watts nor U.S. Customs and Border Patrol officials returned phone calls Friday seeking comment about the Tuesday incident. Port Huron police Capt. Jim Jones would not provide the Times Herald with a copy of a police report about the incident Friday. But, he read the police report to a reporter. Jones said Watts was crossing into Michigan from Point Edward when he was selected at random for a secondary Customs inspection. Watts exited his vehicle “angrily” and border officers began checking the black sport utility vehicle he was driving, Jones said. Border officers ordered Watts back into the vehicle, and when he refused, officers attempted to handcuff him, Jones said. At that point, Watts began to resist and pull away from the officers “and became aggressive toward officers,” Jones said. Jones said a border officer used pepper spray to subdue Watts. Jones said Watts “choked” an officer during the struggle. " http://www.thetimesherald.com/article/20091211/NEWS01/91211010/1002/Science+fiction+writer+charged+after+bridge+struggle
Et In Arcadia Ego
To visit the family cabin on the US side of the border, I can say that about 50 percent of the US Customs agents are assholes on a power trip, pure and simple. Some at our border crossing have had sexual harassment charges leveled against them.
I've run into a few jerk-off Canadian Customs agents as well.
I hate putting myself in the power of these individuals - it seems the sky is the limit with regards to outcomes.
at the border, the police officer came into the bus. The first thing he did was to make a joke about how "smart" he was. So smart that he was able to get a job in which the only thing he had to do is to walk in into buses with a gun - touches the gun so that everyone can see it -, asking people for their documentantion and get paid for it. My mind translated that into an "I can shoot you if i want and noone will care cause if not, i will shoot them too, and end of the story". After the joke the ambience in the bus became really tense, and i started to laugh because of the surrealism of the situation....
He must have forgotten where he was. After all, in Canada (and most of the free Western world) I'm pretty sure you can get a straight answer to the question "Why am I being detained?" from law enforcement without a preliminary beating about the head and shoulders.
The DHS doesn't give a shit about individual civil liberties or rights...effectively they behave as if they were the American Stasi, and should be viewed as such.
that sure is a slanted story, i am sure watts was being an asshole and deserved that beating, hell they should have shot him for resisting a legal search and assaulting an officer of the law.
As an alternate persona to the Linux Geek I share here I am also a Cross-Border Truck Driver when the IT market takes a nose-dive.
I have crossed at Windsor/Detroit & Sarnia/Port Huron THOUSANDS of times.
I will _GLADLY_ add 2 hours to my day if I have the option of crossing at Port Huron.
Detroit Customs officer:
"How long have you been driving?"
"How long have you been with this company?"
"Did you check the trailer?"
"Did you seal the trailer?"
"What kind of seal on the trailer?"
"Why didn't you seal the trailer?" (A: because GM/Chrysler/Ford sealed it before I picked it up and I am not allowed by law to open it.)
"What are you bringing with you?"
"What are you bringing for lunch?"
etc...
Port Huron Customs:
"Hello sir, how are you today?"
"What are you hauling?"
"Have a nice day."
The difference is night & day. You can find assholes anywhere, but 100% of my experience at Port Huron has been positive.
B5_Geek: Truck Driving, Linux coding, Recumbent riding, pencil-neck Geek!
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
It's been a bit since I've crossed the border at Port Huron, but last time I went there was no stopping until the Canadian Boarder. You only deal with US Border Patrol when *entering* the United States.
So what's the deal here?
Bring it back!? Who said anything about bringing it back???
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091207/us_nm/us_iraq_usa_equipment
with no trouble. People there are not randomly stopped and beaten. If the border patrol told him to get back into his car and he didn't, he was disobeying a direct order by someone in a situation where he has very few rights. That's right, kids, you have very few rights at the border. The constitution takes effect inside the border, not at it. I'm not saying that the border officer was correct or right, but you always obey them, it's always "yes sir/no sir", and you just sit through the search until you're released. Getting out to show them who is in charge and demanding information is the incorrect action to take. I think that there is more to this story then he is reporting. I will be crossing that exact border twice again in January. My fears of getting hauled away and beaten? Zero. I want to hear the border patrol's side of the story.
At all of the times I've crossed in a car from US to CA, I've never talked with a US agent, merely Canadian ones. Granted, I use crossings in NY, VT, but I thought you only talk to the country you're entering, not the one you're leaving. Is there something unusual at the particular border crossing in the story?
Watts has already made a statement on his blog that can be used against him.
Seriously, I know that it's kneejerk to assume that cops are wrong. Generally all you have to do at customs is answer questions and get on with it. No one gets beaten up without at least some plausible reason. That's like 3rd graders complaining that they got a bad grade because the teacher doesn't like them. Considering that simplest answer is probably the one that's correct, Peter Watts was probably an asshole and got what he deserved. Of course when it's some uber nerd all you /. pussies get your panties twisted because there's no WAY he could have deserved it.
Mod me down now bitches but you know I'm right.
As history demonstrates, the most dangerous times to live in is when a Empire, particularly a bankrupt one is losing power.
To shore up the losses, at first legions of goon squads will become quite common place as those will be the best jobs.
(I love the propaganda on the "goon mobiles" or public police squad cars. I watched one video where one officer beat a unarmed mentally deficient man while the other tasered him with the Camera in one "Goon Mobile" capturing the side of the other "Goon Mobile" that had "Protect Honor Public Safety" written on it.)
I think Bugs Bunny said it best: "What a Maroon!"
Don't fight the Goon...at least not yet. Wait till the Empire is sufficiently weakened to the point where even the goons don't hold any loyalty or they are forced to shoot or incarcerate their own mothers or children.
Then you know its time to organize as time will be on your side.
But until then, your going to get run over, beaten, electrocuted or even Microwaved to a slow simmer so don't resist the goon squad.
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
You say, "he got out of his car when questioned (mistake #1)". My response to that: What the hell? I'm not going to accept that we should sit meekly while the authorities talk to us. That's not the way a democracy works. The authorities are our servants, and the moment we forget that is the moment that we start letting the authorities run our lives instead of being our own sovereign power as We The People.
I find it scary that people can say the things you said here and apparently mean it.
I crossed the border several times to go to track driving schools. First border crossing, I was nervous. The Canadian officer was curt, and mostly concerned about the fact that I was unemployed at the time. Probably picked up on my being nervous. I just didn't want the hassle of being searched or giving the "wrong" answer.
Second border crossing, the Canadian officer was friendly and while they are trained to engage you in banter to judge how shady you are (which clearly Mr. Watts failed, want to guess why?), he seemed genuinely amused that I was taking MY car to drive on a racetrack. Have fun, he said, and handed me my paperwork.
Both times back, the US crossing was completely unmemorable. Drove up, handed over my license, answered some quick questions about when I came into Canada, what I'd done, and whether I had anything to declare. 2-3 minutes, tops- long enough to run my plates and license in the computer and see how fidgety I was. Nobody at any of the events I went to (all of them American) had anything bad to say, and some of them had been coming to the track for years.
I lost my license right before a trip to Canada, and called around trying to figure out if a temporary replacement license was sufficient. I eventually got put through to one of the actual border officers, who was audibly in the middle of his lunch break, munching on his sandwich. For a cop on his lunchbreak being pestered by some dumb shmuck, he was not only helpful but...chipper. He wouldn't make any solid promises, but he did ask me when I was coming, my name, and a few other things, and said if he was on shift when I came back into the US, he'd help if he could and take the fact that I called ahead etc under consideration, but he said I definitely needed to make sure I'd be OK getting IN to Canada. So he gave me the number for his Canadian counterparts, and cheerfully wished me a good afternoon and best of luck trying to get a 'real' license or some other government ID out of my state government (didn't.)
HOLY FUCKING SHIT. A very curt, annoyed, angry Canadian customs agent answered the phone, and read me the fucking riot act and demanded to know how I got the number for their office, why was I calling them, who was I, what the hell did I want. When I explained what I wanted (mainly to know if I'd be permitted into Canada with my temporary license, and was there anything I could do to smooth the wheels, like bringing extra documentation of some sort, anything to help), point-black refused to answer or discuss anything with me, and hung up after angrily saying "NEUO!" to several questions.
Please help metamoderate.
My father has been on the Maine border for the past 20 years.
From my memories as crossing 10 years ago, things have definitely changed- and there are many reasons why. One of the biggest is that since 2001, the number of border gaurds has increased by a factor of 4. There used to be high standards, with lengthy training. You had to learn spanish, and generally become reasonably educated in detecting lies, noticing suspicious people, etc. The handgun training weeded out a lot of people, and my father had to practice every 3 weeks, because if he didn't, he might not pass the handgun qualification test, which seemed to be at least 4 times a year. A lot of that went away when some politicians decided they needed to stack the border in the name of "Homeland Security". Immigration and Customs (2 separate groups 10 years ago) were rolled into Homeland Security after 2001. Instead of ambitious folk who didn't mind learning spanish, passing rigorous handgun tests, remaining current in their education, etc, you got the bottom of the barrel uneducated Joe. The kind who saw a cushy government job for little effort and took it.
Joe is not a fun guy. Joe does the bare minimum and nothing extra, collects his paycheck, and sits in the booth following his script.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
Are you so sure that they have video cameras covering the exit area? One weird thing about this is that the incident happened as he was leaving the US, where you normally don't stop at all.
Yes, because you're entering Canada, and they've got all sorts of cameras too. I seriously doubt there is a single square inch of a border crossing that isn't under 24x7, recorded surveillance.
Actually, that's an excellent point, one I didn't think of. At least the last time I hit one of the VT crossings, the into-Canada side, you only talk to a Canadian border agent. You talk only to a US agent on the way in.
I'm now really, really curious as to why he ended up talking to any US customs agents on his way out of the country. If you're leaving, the US doesn't give a rat's ass what you've got in your car or anything- you're literally someone else's problem. I know a number of people with restricted academic visas who didn't have problems leaving the US- they had problems getting back in, because their visa said they were not supposed to leave the US, and the US customs agent wanted to know why they were coming back in...
Please help metamoderate.
I'm reminded of Digby's comments during the Gates incident back in July:
"I have discovered that my hackles automatically going up at such authoritarian behavior is not necessarily the common reaction among my fellow Americans, not even my fellow liberals. The arguments are usually something along the lines of "that guy was an idiot to argue with the cops, he should know better," ...
"Now, on a practical, day to day level, it's hard to argue that being argumentative with a cop is a dangerous thing. They have guns. They can arrest you and can cost you your freedom if they want to do it badly enough. They can often get away with doing violence on you and suffer no consequences. You are taking a risk if you provoke someone with that kind of power, no doubt about it.
"Indeed, it is very little different than exercising your right of free speech to tell a gang of armed thugs to go f*ck themselves. It's legal, but it's not very smart. But that's the problem isn't it? We shouldn't have to make the same calculations about how to behave with police as we would with armed criminals. The police are supposed to be the good guys who follow the rules and the law and don't expect innocent citizens to bow to their brute power the same way that a street gang would do. The police are not supposed wield what is essentially brute force on the entire population.
First up, I've witnessed and had described by retired police officers occasions when an officer elected to go medieval on a citizen who was being only mildly disagreeable, or didn't immediately understand what the officer wanted, so I can well imagine Mr. Watts was unreasonably roughed up, and hit with trumped up charges.
That said, based on the information in TFA's links, as a practical, like-to-avoid-getting-my-ass-handed-to-me matter, I might question Mr. Watts' evident lack of "street smarts". I'm just a mid-aged, college-educated white boy who for the most part stayed out of trouble. But, even I have heard and read enough to know that:
Unfortunately, Mr. Watts may not have had any previous experiences that would prep him for the possibility that getting out of the queue at a border crossing wasn't the best plan. I hope his only lasting consequences are a bruised body and ego.
Luke, help me take this mask off
It seems the citizenry, officers, and/or agents of the U.S. gov't have forgotten a few, really pertinent, things...
e.g. A police officer and his partner (and/or dispatch)
My Favoritest:
Nothing would make me want to visit the US in this current climate. I am sure some of the stories of abusive attitudes on the part of US officials are gross exaggerations, but if any of them are true, then I can't think of a reason that would make me want to travel south of the border. Too much power seems to have been given to people who are not paid well, probably not that well educated, and under a lot of stress.
My only experiences with doing so were years ago mind you, and were generally unpleasant but not overly so in entering the US, and simple and peaceful crossing back into Canada.
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
Thank you for reminding me why I haven't come to /. in months.
First, we get a summary that doesn't get us enough information, but is more than happy telling us what to think.
Then we get someone who has apparently never watched a single episode of Cops in his life making a sweeping statement that is false on its face, and it is rated +5, Insightful.
The police defend themselves against unarmed aggressors as a matter of course. The cases where the police are the aggressors or egregiously over-react are vanishingly rare. It is because those cases are well-publicized and so outrageous that the reverse may seem true.
When enough evidence is available and the evidence points to wrongdoing on the part of the police I will be the first to suggest throwing the key away.
But shame on you, sir, for being so quick to prejudge the fine men and women who risk their lives to protect you every single day.
I still carry a USA passport, but when I'm travelling by car, usually through Port Huron, I get more of a grilling from the Americans than the Canadians.
This is the conversation with the American border guard last year for Xmas. In my car? Me, wife, child, cat in a travel box, several Xmas gifties and our clothes. He looks in, takes our American Passports and asks:
USA: Where you going?
RS: (city - state)
USA: Where you staying?
RS: in laws house.
USA: When you going back?
RS: Day After New Years.
USA: Got any food?
RS: Nothing of significance - just these cookies and bottled water.
USA: (jokingly) uh oh - we'll have to take those cookies.
(daughter bursts into tears)
RS: Great...
USA: just joking kid. You can keep the cookies.
RS: Thanks.
USA: (returns passports) have a nice trip.
On our return trip with USA Passports, the Canadian Guard says:
CAN: Passports?
RS: Here ya go.
CAN: Thanks. (looks in car at me, wife, child, and cat and bags) Have a good holiday?
RS: Yes.
CAN: Where do you live?
RS: Toronto.
CAN: OK. Have a nice day. (waves us in.)
I've only had one bad experience with Canadian officials, and he wasn't pissed at me, he was pissed at lazy ass colleagues who forced him to do their work.
Whenever I deal with American Border people, it's always more of a hassle. At the Airport, they even have American Customs in Toronto - you have to clear them in TO first. Nothing like an expanded sense of sovereignty.
So, like many people above, i simply reduce the amount of travel I do in the states. The place is so fucked up anymore, it's just not any fun.
I'd rather go to Europe. It's also fucked up, but in a much nicer way (at least where I travel....)
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
if it vindicates the guy's account, it'll get "lost" or be shielded in the name of national security for revealing camera positions. The assaulting BP will get cover from his agency. OTOH there will magically be no security issue if it even approaches a vindication for the cops.
Like all successful police states these people aren't busted for expressing anti-Government views. Instead laws are passed taking away fundamental rights (remember your bill of rights is not an exhaustive list and IIRC amendment #9 basically states this) then the undesirables are targeted.
The favourite rights to be removed are things like the right to grow plants and have the products in your possession.
Okaaay. I so I guess you're pretty militantly pro-legalization on marijuana, but aren't you spinning things a little bit too much by calling drug possession your "right to grow plants and have the products in your possession?"
I mean, context matters. You might as well describe speeding laws as interfering with your "right to drive," noise ordinances as abridging the "right to enjoy music," and laws against shooting people as abridging your "right to play catch."
Plus, if you want to characterize prisoners in jail for drug violations as "political prisoners," then you're going to have to call anyone who is in prison for a crime they don't believe is wrong a "political prisoner." That just renders the term meaningless.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
This is disappointing. The States has been well known for a while as the most hostile and least welcoming country in the world. I refuse to fly to the States after all the awful stories I've heard from friends that have been there (border control, the people are apparently fantastic once actually inside). However a Canadian friend suggested I fly to Canada and drive to New York (somewhere I would like to visit). However, after everybody pretty much backing up the posted story with their experiences, I guess that is out too. Not a huge loss, as the States is just one small place and there are thousands of other more friendly places to go to, but still it's a shame to cross something from my To Do list for such a reason.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
You never get out of the car...
Traveled from Washington to Alaska, so both borders, before I left I read up on the protocols for getting across easily. You don't get out, you don't question, you don't wear sunglasses, etc.
FTA - After border guards asked to search his car, Watts got out of the vehicle and questioned what they were doing.
Yea, thats a tasering.
"Along some other timeline, I did not get out of the car to ask what was going on. I did not repeat that question when refused an answer and told to get back into the vehicle." It doesn't matter what border guards or police it is and what country, get out of the car and thats an aggressive act to them, welcome to the asskicking.
"Peter, a Canadian citizen, was on his way back to Canada after helping a friend move house to Nebraska over the weekend. He was stopped at the border crossing at Port Huron, Michigan by U.S. border police for a search of his rental vehicle. When Peter got out of the car and questioned the nature of the search, the gang of border guards subjected him to a beating, restrained him and pepper sprayed him."
From what I read they go after rental cars because those are commonly used to transport dope, and he got out and asked questions. I also believe a group of police is called a "squad" or a "team" or maybe even a posse, not a "gang".
A lot of these posts don't seem to get the fact that he was leaving the US to enter Canada. And US Customs were stopping Canadian vehicles to search them. This is very bizzare behavior by US Customs, if they needed someone stopped normal policy would be to Inform Canada Customs to stop them before they "offically" enter Canada and send them back to US Customs. So what was US Customs up to that the "US" did not want "Canada" to know about?
Since when do you have to check in with US Border Guards when leaving the country? That's not the way the border works - you check in with the US side when entering the US, and you check in with the Canadian side when entering Canada. Something's not quite right with this story.
I realize that what I'm about to say might not appeal to you. Please try to keep an open mind.
I've been reading Slashdot since about 1999. I've seen a lot of "outrage stories". Stories intended to get your blood pressure shooting through the roof. And they used to work on me.
Remember when Iraq invaded Kuwait? The story was circulated that Iraqi soldiers were taking premature babies out of incubators and throwing them on the ground. Turned out to be a total fabrication, created by Kuwait to get the US into the war. It worked.
Every controversy has two sides. No sane court will convict without hearing both sides. "There are two sides to every beef."
The "outrage story" is always based on giving you only one side. And it works - until you're old enough to recognize it.
Realize that every person who had an unpleasant contact with these border guards could tell a similar story. Only one in a 100 will recognize his own mistake. The majority will claim that he was nice, and the other guy created the problem.
While it depends on the officer I several times experienced some really nasty border guards when crossing at the Windsor Detroit checkpoint. Some of them behave far worse than the second runners up that I encountered i.e. East German and Soviet border guards. The later at least didn't display the kind of Rambo cop mentality that some of these US goons do. Don't know where they find these people.
To me the way law enforcement officials and government representatives treat the public says a lot about the level of civil society and the freedoms you enjoy. Doesn't inspire confidence. If it wasn't for my mother in law living in Ohio I'd be more than happy to not venture down south any more. I hope once she retires I can convince her to move up here. I hate this border.
Peter Watts has put up a new post on the event. All emphasis mine:
"I'm at the point now where I can't talk a whole lot about ongoing proceedings. I am seeing a few common misrepresentations making the rounds, though, that I'd like to set straight:
That's it for the technical items. I have only two more things to say. Firstly, I am absolutely flabbergasted by the online reaction to this story, and by the support (both moral and financial) that's inundated me over the past few hours. I don't have a hope in hell of answering even a fraction of the incoming traffic at this point, so for the moment let me just say I'm humbled and a little bit scared. I did not start this campaign; it actually started when I was still in jail, and had absolutely no idea what was going on. But to the catalytic folks who orchestrated it, know that I am looking into having my vasectomy reversed so that I can sire a firstborn son and sacrifice him to you.
Secondly, I'm going to bed.
http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm
thanks for changing my mind about orwell. its ok to beat up homeless people, but only as much as 'is necessary'. how compassionate you are.
Yeah, so the Olympic Committee's decision was justified after all!
I believe it's nearly time to upgrade our old outdated operating system controlling our laws when we ourselves can't vote each day, like checking e-mail on whatever's current, old outdated laws and reform them, and of COURSE future laws as 360,000,000 North Americans (330 America, 30 Canada, keep it simple. :D)
;)
:P
:D, i'm sure everyone'd still get paid, lmao, point is everyone then "has a say" on a national website, federal white hat guys. I don't even KNOW, I just know Firefox and Ubuntu ROCKED.
:) Anyways trying to get them doing it b/c they COULD and maybe make ad money, voip the cable tv market even. I just want things done by people willing to exploit me for money. Here's my 200 bucks/month, where's my fiber optic options? I'm alright /w being a slave. It's cool. Just pimp my slavery already.
:D). I'm sure all KINDS of awesome ideas could be done. I'd like to at least link to em.
I'm just a garbageman but Love Firefox for web browsing.
Then I loved Ubuntu Linux for an operating system.
Just figured the next step along the path of:
What's important to me?
I could give a shit about a vote every 5 years, most likely rigged, and once in WHOEVER it is, even the "good ones" are most likely given 2 choices, briefcase full of money, and, well, you don't want THE OTHER ONE.
So in tribute to Linux I made a crappy website, http://www.opensourceg.com/
I'm not sure it could handle slashdotting but I think the cause is just. I've posted it on torrent freak, http://torrentfreak.com/ , cbc (deleted or buried in oblivion of other people, ALL SCREAMING AT YOU, WHY WON'T YOU LISTEN??? DAMNIT! AHHHHHHHHHHHH
So ya, the very laws we obide by are in no control over. It's messed up with all this Internet we don't got an organized government to do daily online polls. Surely there are white hats up to the challenge (and black hats to cause troubles.
Ubuntu's got a live add remove programs for God's sake! The swarm is the most powerful. More then anything. Even p2p can't be shut down even if the guys buying the laws say it's illegal.
So I spent 15 bucks and thought the idea was great. Rather pick Open Source distros then politicians . The ground rules should be set like Linux stuff is. You guys will get it (if anyone has, it's been a crappy website for so long and a buddy helped me get a blogging feature so I can rant in a corner of the Internet)
Far as building a voting site, don't think "I'd" be able to. I'll sure as hell link to it if one get's built.
Closet things I found in my quest were: http://www.opencongress.org/ - American one, just liked the voting, just kinda wish a 3rd party does it, like, "here, were not rigging those electronic numbers". Protect a country militarily but the management needs an upgrade. Doing all THEY can in a restrictive environment. Imagine the 1 GOOD congressman pretending to be bad just to TRY and help their country? (or maybe they are all good and just fighting each other instead of the issues)
http://www.mysociety.org/ - UK based, they fix road problems or organized a nice "email your politician" thing.
Granted I'm a complete idiot who shouldn't even vote, I'm pretty ignorant to current politics b/c of lack of faith. No public trust from me. Enhancing people's lives instead of beating them down would be a GREAT start.
Kinda like sending out an email to get Google doing real tv. They are big enough to make it happen and I just want some smart dude to make the ir remote work as standard on websites.
Any way to port Linux to our govt? Format whatever junk was on the drive, install, reboot (once, ever,
Yahoo Answers, the 2 that replied both said no. Wouldn't work f
http://www.opensourceg.com - A Man Can Dream
I'll take the opposing view in light of the plentiful liberal drivel in this thread: I say an uppity Canadian questioning local authority deserved a thorough peppering at a very minimum. Show your passport and move the fuck on, nobody really cares about your viewpoint you self-righteous tool.
Then ask why the USA spends more on 'defense' than the next 5 countries on the list combined.
The USA projects its power well. That tends to have an effect on decisions made elsewhere.
My solution is simple: I'll stay away from the US.
With all these stories about police violence, etc, it just does not seem like a safe country to visit.
It probably shouldn't be too hard to convince a judge of this since, as far as I know, all border patrol stations are video taped. I would assume they'd also have audio in there... First thing I'd be doing, if I were truly innocent, is requesting the video for the time in question.
The first thing you do is STFU.
Watts can't retreat from anything he posted to his blog without the risk of a jury concluding that he is a cynical, manipulative, liar.
"My baby didn't do nuffin!" or "But I wasn't doin' nuffin!" are all too common. Nobody says "Oh, yeah, I really deserved that."
"He was just asking them questions" can just as well be "He ignored thirty seven requests to get back in his car, and ten additional warnings."
Before I jumped to any conclusions... I would want to know what really happened.
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
When this happened to another famous Canadian author, Farley Mowat, he wrote a book about it. "My Discovery of America." It's true Mowat and a good read. Perhaps Watts ought to take a page out of Mowats book and start keeping notes in contemplation of a publication.
Peter should have came in from the south instead of the north......they would have given him a free pony, free college, and free healthcare for him and his family.
Note: This doesn't excuse or compare to what is alleged to have happened to Mr. Watts
I'm a US citizen and out of four times I've been to Canada for work, I've been "held" for almost 9 hours, flat out threatened with official detainment and denial of entry. I have no criminal record, no arrest record, I have never had any problems with entry into any other countries and I'm always exceedingly polite and patient b/c I know how frustrating it can be to deal with the same headaches day in, day out (and it pays... can't count how many times I've gotten free hotel/car upgrades or even just drinks on the plane just by being nice instead of an a**).
In every case I was told that I did not have the proper paperwork and that I was coming in to "steal" jobs from Canadians. The hell it was I was coming in to do contract work for the Canadian Revenue Agency (CCRA) and all my paperwork was from the CCRA. In the worst case they tried to deny entry b/c I did not have my hotel reservations on me (they were in my luggage that Air Canada misplaced) but did have my papers from CCRA. They wouldn't allow me to pull up the hotel reservations up on my laptop b/c it was "illegal" to use it until I had cleared customs. They finally agreed but only with a official watching everything over my shoulder and insisting I provide them with the password(s) for my laptop just in case they needed it for "evidence" (and that took an hour of reasoning and me asking for a written explanation of why I was being denied entry).
It's a shocking contrast to the people you meet and work with once your past the gates.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
. . . was ask for orange juice. Poor bastard.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
So some of the comments on the boingboing post, e.g., this one, have had their vowels removed and a "Moderator note" added, with a link to an article about "disemvoweling". The article says, "comments on blogs and in other online forums can be incredibly annoying, not to mention hate-filled and obscene. How can moderators walk the line between unregulated anarchy and oppressive censorship? Some have begun discouraging problem commenters by simply removing the vowels from their posts, a process known as disemvoweling. The offending message is rendered less obnoxious, but it's still possible for other readers to decipher it — f thy rlly wnt t."
So let's try to decipher one of the disemvoweled comments:
So that is what the moderators consider "offensive" enough that they think it should be censored? I looked a few more of the censored comments, and they were of a similar vein--suggesting that we don't know the whole story, but doing so politely. Sure is nice to see dissenting viewpoints being suppressed!
...as "Sci-Fi Author Wants Peters Beaten, Charged During Border Crossing." I was having real trouble figuring out who the two parties were.
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
Want to beat random people up?
Want to legally charge them for assault as well?
Want to ruin their car, their house, and their family?
And finally, want to leave them in Siberian cold without a shirt?
You don't have to be Joseph Stalin to do all these! Join Homeland Security today! Keeping America safe, one mangled skull at a time!
I've got one more proof that cops are so dumb, they don't even read books.
I knew that anyway, feel free to call me biased.
And I work with literally a dozen Canadians here in the US. And they make the trip back and forth all the time and none has any problems. They did it in the last two weeks! Hell, for one of my Canadian friends, his parents moved to Chicago a few years before him, then he moved to San Jose, then his brother moved to Palo Alto. He got married last year. As you might expect, half the wedding guests came from Canada. Do you know how many didn't come because of the problems at the border? None.
My Canadian friend from London, ON worked in Chicago in the summer. He comes across the border to buy stuff like iPhones from time to time. He goes to see hockey games in Buffalo.
I curl with a huge pile of Canadians (as you might expect), none of them has these problems.
I'm sorry you are having problems. But I'm not as sure the full situation is exactly as you say.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
> Because they only way to make the cops become something other than corrupt power-mongering jerks is to stand up, make a fuss, get noticed, and have someone above those cops do something about it. Which takes public outcry and attention.
Yeah, but you should be smart about where and when and how you make a fuss. If you start yelling at the man with a taser, you'll soon find out what it feels like. Instead, you try to avoid escalating the situation in the first place and fight over what they did wrong later, in a court of law (or the court of public opinion). It's a lot less painful and it makes your case a lot better if it's clear that you did your best to make things easy and the cop was just trying to be a jerk.
Read Harlan Ellison's "The Tombs", an account of when police and the system almost ruined his life back in the 50s over possession of a single little handgun.
perhaps we should go and beat them the hell up and charge them wiht attacking the front lawn or some stupid law.
oh and 32000 people died in your country of 250 million of gunfire
3300 or lil more in iraq in what 4-6 years?
Canada oddly has per capita ten times more guns per person yet ten times less violence per capita
wonder is that cause were gun toting crazies running around the world PUSHING IP and PUSHING OUR VIEWS on other countries?
When crossing into Canada, you do not encounter any US Border Patrol at the Blue Water Bridge. At the Port Huron crossing, when crossing into CA, there's a toll taker (it's a toll bridge) on the US side, you cross the bridge, then stop for Canadian border inspection.
The process is reversed when entering the US (pay toll on CA side, go through border inspection on US side).
There's something not right with this story.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
This is one of the reasons why I will never go to the U.S...
Along with facts like:
- The U.S. has got the largest prison population in the world (even more as China).
- If you're a foreigner you've got no rights whatsoever.
- The possibility to be detained indeffinately without being charged for no reason at all.
- Law enforcement officers in urgent need of psychiatric treatment.
- Law enforcement officers which appear to enjoy immunity from the law.
- The default treatment of distrust for foreigners.
- Death penalty (government sanctioned murder), there is no excuse for it.
Yeah, why can't we all be like Canadians?
Sorry to break your bubble, but your country is not doing well because you are nicer, better, or smarter people, it's because you have a powerful and stable southern neighbor and because your ancestors managed to grab a huge landmass rich in natural resources and with no hostile neighbors, and to keep people out so that it remains settled sparsely.
As for those laws that people keep imposing on you, that's related to your political and economic significance. Where do you think companies and activists are going to lobby? Canada? Why would they bother? They lobby in the biggest and strongest nation because that's the nation that can then push other nations to comply. If the US weren't kicking you around, the same kind of laws would be imposed on you by some other nation. And if you were big and strong, you would be imposing these laws on others.
But you may get your wish: Americans are getting really tired of foreign adventures. If the US turns inwards, you may find yourself getting pushed around by the EU (British, French, Germans). But you already have experience with that, don't you?
Yeah, you sit on one of the largest and richest pieces of real estate on the globe, lets other nations do your dirty work, benefit handsomely from the usually strong economy and innovation of your southern neighbor, and then whine about why everybody can't be as wonderful as you. Aren't you wonderful.
So far, all we have is his side of the story, and I don't find it particularly consistent. But, yes, it is possible: border guards sometimes screw up.
The incident has almost certainly been video taped, so we should just wait for the legal system to work it out.
There used to be high standards, with lengthy training. You had to learn spanish, and generally become reasonably educated in detecting lies, noticing suspicious people, etc.
As if being able to speak Spanish is necessary at the border posts between Canukistan and the United States of Amerika. US Border Patrol agents used to be professional until the lies about the 9/11 hijackers coming into the US via Canada started being spouted by idiots in Washington and the media. Uneducated Amerikans believe anything their government tells them.
The "war on drugs" is fundamentally political. It was started by Nixon as a way to punish what he saw as his chief enemies: the hippies who were constantly protesting against his Vietnam policies. Before Nixon's war on drugs, while drug use was technically illegal, there were far fewer arrests and incarcerations than after it got underway. Even then, the really intense number of incarcerations didn't happen until Reagan - again as a political measure against those he had seen as his enemies since they opposed his governorship in California - redoubled the effort.
Of course the war on drugs has been hardest on blacks. One of the chief political complaints against the hippies was they were taking too much of their culture and attitude from blacks. And blacks are less likely to have political connections - say through parents and college friends - to defend themselves against drug persecution. So they've been the easiest target. Still, the war on drugs is essentially Nixon's - and Reagan's - war against the hippies, based on their perception that the hippies were there personal enemies, and arguably enemies of everything essential to "America" - unbridled militarism, for instance.
There's nothing more political than substances that can help break people out of their followership trance.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
I live in Port Huron. I frequently cross the bridge to Canada. These border guards have one of the toughest jobs around. The first thing we learn from our parents or others before crossing the bridge is that when you cross you shut up, answer their questions (no matter how strange they seem), and you will get out of there without a problem. They have to deal with tons of assholes (like the one in the story it seems) so as long as you are polite and answer correctly they are going to let you through. These guys have to make sure that tens of thousands of cars get into the United States safely everyday, so they don't put up with anything and shouldn't have to. Good for them for doing their job.
Note: I've been pulled over for a search many times and even then as long as you cooperate and treat the officers with respect it causes a very short delay at most.
Er, I understand that some cops can be kind of dicks--more than kind of, sometimes--but when a cop tells you to get back in your car, you DO IT. If you get pulled over for speeding or a broken tail light and you get out of your car, the cop is probably going to draw his gun, and I have zero qualms with that.
You have a problem with what the cops are doing, you deal with it later. You don't deal with it while they're searching your car, by getting OUT of your car. They search because they think something's up, and you really, really don't want to support that idea. They're in charge...and they're just thinking about going home to their families at the end of the day. Some guy starts acting belligerent, not following directions, putting himself in a potentially threatening posture, and yeah, at one end of the bell curve, you're going to get overreacting cops. But I figure it's at least half your fault if you're doing that stuff.
Really, what did he even think he was going to accomplish? Was he going to say "Hey, guys, please don't open my trunk"? If the cops decide they want to search your car, they ARE GOING TO search your car. And honestly, at a border crossing, I don't mind.
So he got chucked in a cell. Sorry, guy. Somewhere along the chain of communication, someone said "He was acting all belligerent at the border crossing and trying to stop us from searching his car", and someone else said "Ugh, I don't know what else to do with him right now, chuck him in a cell until my superior can handle him". Outliers happen. Yeah, please continue to post stories when this stuff happens--but right now it doesn't happen enough to scare me. Right now it just seems like a very reasonable tail end of the bell curve. I don't see malice, I just see people who weren't at their best...and guy who decides to raise a fuss and get out of his car is one of those people.
There is precisely one member of the committee (Ågot Valle) that could be described as a leftist (party SV). There are two from Labour, one conservative and one ultra-conservative (slightly to the right of the republicans). On the other hand, since the ultra-conservatives in the Progress Party have no desire to dismantle our national health care system, you might call them leftists after all ...
Sounds to me like the Detroit officer was trying to verify that nothing was tampered with on the truck seal, in case someone tried to smuggle something in.
A copy of the 2006 Lancet study of excess deaths in Iraq during the war. http://web.mit.edu/CIS/pdf/Human_Cost_of_War.pdf
For a very good reason- It turns out that the Southern border is not all that popular. It's hot, you're mostly working outside, always busy, and you have to deal with people at the bottom of the economic ladder all day long. So, generally, border agents are required to spend some time there before moving on to their permanent assignment. When all the agents were required to learn spanish, this was good. Now, I wonder how they are properly screening people.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
I cross this same border regularly, and after reading the story, something is confusing to me. The story says that he was "returning to Canada". When returning to Canada there's a toll booth on the US side where you pay the bridge toll (staffed by employees of the bridge authority -- who are not customs agents). The customs inspection is always on the far side of the bridge, in this case the Canadian side. This would have been staffed by Canadian customs agents.
Does this article mean to say that there were US Customs & Border inspection at the toll booth on the US side? That would be very irregular. The only time I have ever seen an exception is during the weekend of the Mackinac Race when police are trying to curtail drunk driving across the bridge (there's a huge party just before the race, heavy drinking, etc.).
I really feel for Mr. Watts. I'm just trying to understand what happened.
I found a news article explaining that Mr. Watts was selected randomly for a "secondary Customs inspection" and that he was belligerent about it. I don't know what actually happened, but there's always another side to the story and, in typical Slashdot fashion, it doesn't appear anyone's considered what the other side to this one is. For instance, his being half-naked in a cell is likely because he was subdued by pepper spray, which has a tendency to get into your clothing and make you want it off of your body. I have seen one individual tear off his sweatshirt pro wrestler-style in the dead of a Montana winter night because of the pepper spray in the shirt.
It's quite likely that the US border agents went too far, but it's less likely that they beat up a Canadian celebrity just for sport.
Unless any of you were there and saw what happened or a video is released of the entire event its nothing but speculation. I like how immediately everyone jumps on the oppressive fascists bandwagon. Police officers dont run around randomly beating the shit out of people for no reason in front of numerous witnesses. Thats a bad idea. Unlike you axe grinding authority hating anarchists, ill wait to make judgment until all the facts come out. See in this country, we examine the evidence before condemning people. Oh wait, unless cops do something we dont like, then who needs proof? Theyre all rotten bully's.
Though I'm as much against stupid governments following the policies of other stupid governments, I think you citizens of the US need to take responsibility for your own privileges of citizenship, such as the casual way in which you can provide arguments such as the above. Sometimes, our crappy governments dare to oppose your crappy government, and we end up having to experience certain problems such as "foreign"-funded assassinations, military coups, "sanctions", economic interferences (eg IMF, WB), covert "operations," or even "civil" wars or pretty much outright military attacks, wars, and invasions...
Taking the meaning and practice of "sovereignty" for granted is a luxury some of us cannot afford.
Oh, and, please shove your American Dream (TM) and blame-the-victim (R) rhetoric up your arse. Thanks.
I hope that the EFF can successfully bring the truth to light in court.
Everywhere in the world are cops who figure the badge is a ticket to power and adventure.
In the U.S.s haste to fill homeland security positions, I'm sure they haven't been as discriminating as they should be in hiring.
Any monkey with even some national guard experience is first choice hire. I know a few and believe me I don't sleep any better knowing they are on duty at the airport.
Bad cops are an embarrassment and should be corrected with some prison time in general population if only for the Darwinian aspects of passing their genes on to further generations.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
I think you miss the point of much of this. This seems to fit the script of our new administration's bullying tactics. If you fail to knuckle under, well, there will be consequences. It's the 'Chicago Way'. Truth and fairness have no venue here. Power is all that matters. Yes, in this town Money = Power and if you buck the system, you are going to lose. Oh, did I mention that I'm from Chicago ? Keep your head down and your mouth shut if you know what's good for you. It's all part of the 'Chicago Way'.
Normally I ascribe all life to intelligent design, but in your case I'll make an exception.
http://trolltalk.com/blog/blog/article.php?story=20091212120550767
by his own account, he refused to get back in the car when ordered to. Cops with guns vs. arrogant Canuck prick with frozen brain == predictable outcome.
I visited for a week in California in the Februrary after 9/11.
On an internal flight from SF to LA I got "randomly" selected 3 times between the check in desk and the plane! I'm pretty much the exact opposite of a Muslim Terrorist. I'm white and obviously middle-class.
After we came back we began hearing reports about how it was getting even more onerous. Obstreperous TSA guards at airports etc etc so we've decided that we won't be coming back in the foreseeable future. Which is a shame as both my wife and I would love to visit SF again and Las Vegas and NY and DC: but not where there's a *perception* that any visit has the strong probability of getting into trouble at the airport.
Unlike you I don't (and never did) believe Obama, "The Black Bush", will make any difference whatsoever. A year into his lame-duck presidency and nothing has changed.
About the most effort he's made was to collect his entirely un-earned Noble Peace Prize. The committee must have a very warped sense of humour. Either that or they're just plain stupid.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
Nerd gets beaten. Idiots doing the beating (some of those guys on the Canadian border are really bored and stupid - I've known a couple).
I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
Yes but this is just one of too many stories about over-reactions (to put it kindly) and outright dishonest behaviour by the boarder guards of various types, including the TSA.
Why risk it when there's the rest of the world to visit?
I've been to Japan, twice, since deciding not to go to the US anymore. They have pretty much the same checks as the US (fingerprints, photo on entry, declaration that you're not evil, IR checks to see if you have a fever) but not once did I feel threatened. The finger-print machine is more like playing a Nintendo DS or some Hello Kitty game! And none of the staff acted in a threatening or even over-bearing manner. They were cool and professional.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
fascist propaganda is full of stories that are outright fabrications or contain only a tiny grain of truth, but are designed to amp up the emotional reaction of the reader to the max
and lo and behold: look at the reactions under this story. for all those reacting in high holy indignation: you're all fodder for fascism, as your mind is primed to overreact in kneejerk emotional ways and jump to absurd conclusions based on the sketchy details of a border dispute
none of you overreacting in this thread represent a protection from fascism. in your overreactions is a good representation of the soil in which fascism grows: jumping to angry and emotional based on flimsy sketchy evidence
fucking pathetic
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
anyone think that if cameras should have caught a record of the events, and there should be tapes, and those tapes should be in the control of the police, and the tapes are missing, there should be a presumption that they contained unequivocal proof in support of the defence?
FGD 135
Though I'm as much against stupid governments following the policies of other stupid governments, I think you citizens of the US need to take responsibility for your own privileges of citizenship, such as the casual way in which you can provide arguments such as the above. Sometimes, our crappy governments dare to oppose your crappy government, and we end up having to experience certain problems such as "foreign"-funded assassinations, military coups, "sanctions", economic interferences (eg IMF, WB), covert "operations," or even "civil" wars or pretty much outright military attacks, wars, and invasions...
If you live in Iraq, Afghanistan, or even some poor Latin American countries, this argument might have some validity.
If you live in Canada, UK, any Western European or NATO-member country, Russia, China, Australia, or similar country, then you're full of shit. The idea of the USA bringing about a military coup in Australia to pass silly IP laws is just ridiculous. And with these IP laws, it's not the poor, backwards middle eastern and Latin American countries that Slashdotters are complaining about these dumb IP laws being passed in. It's countries like Australia, Canada, and the UK; countries that are completely free to give the US the finger if they wanted to, and more than strong enough to get away with it. As someone else here pointed out, the French give our government the finger all the time; maybe the rest of you need to start acting more like them.
So basically, your argument is full of shit.
Peter Watts has given his side of the story. While I believe the Border Patrol is capable of doing what he said, I don't know if I necessarily believe what he is saying is what happened. By the same token, I will take what the agents say with a grain of salt as well. I want to see the video. There should be multiple cameras that recorded that confrontation. Unfortunately depending on who is telling the truth we may never actually get to see it.
As a fellow biology Ph.D., I'll remain skeptical of his story until I hear all sides. Those who donate large sums of money based on a one paragraph blog post are gullible at best.
Cory Doctorow -- who in his novel "Little Brother" had an obvious axe to grind against Homeland Security and law enforcement, to the point of suggesting "9/11 was an inside job". (Says one of the leaflets dropped by the novel's heroic protesters.)
I thought the 9/11 troof reference in that scene in Little Brother was to show how every protest movement can attract crackpots and others with an axe to grind; also specifically to show how Marcus's protests were being portrayed as anti-American by the DHS.
Awesome book by the way, I got a free signed copy when I joined the Open Rights Group.
...a decent fraction succeed...
Ah yes.. That makes it all okay. Tell me, what's a "decent" fraction? You know all that crap about "zero tolerance"? Well, on the authorities is the perfect, if not the only place to apply it. And who's going to court for the guy in a bad shooting? Has a single cop received the death penalty for it? Being an apologist for the cops makes you an ass.
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
Really? Which states?
An eye for an eye, an unjust harassment at the border for an unjust harassment at the border.
or something like that.
In Vermont they had a permanently established border point at a rest area about half way down the state on I-91. It was there for a long time and widely discussed in the newspapers. A terrorist would simply need to get off at the exit before and get back on at the exit after. This internal border check point was a totally pointless waste of tax payer dollars. Or they could look like your typical family of five in a minivan and get waved right through.
Send a letter to your congress(person). That's the only way this kind of thing will stop, it's the only way an investigation of this incident will happen, it's the only way that 'foreigners' will be able to feel safe coming into the country.
K.
Yeah, like the Jews screwed up by not holding enough candlelight vigils.
Watts was in a position I refuse to put myself into, dealing with the Homoland Stasi butches. They are there specifically to hassle, harrass and humiliate US citizens. Send the good old boys from Georgia up to Maine to frig with the Mainers born across the border and send the Mainers to the southwest to get freaked out by the skin colors. Standard imperial practice.
Watts went wrong crossing the border in the first place. Those of us with a "bad attitude" should know better than to put ourselves in a position where we have to stand up or wimp out. Existential is the right word, I think.
And yeah, there are good cops. And good soldiers. But fewer and fewer every day - so few it's already too late.
it's time to abolish the US - Canada border and put all those pr*cks out of work.
Anyone know a good country in South America to emigrate to?
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
A topic about a Canadian getting beat up and people make it political.