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UK Police Plan To Use Military-Style Spy Drones
krou writes "According to documents obtained by the Guardian under the Freedom of Information Act, the UK police plan on deploying unmanned drones in the UK to 'revolutionize policing' and extend domestic 'surveillance, monitoring and evidence gathering,' which will be used in 'the routine work of the police, border authorities and other government agencies.' The documents come from the South Coast Partnership, 'a Home Office-backed project in which Kent police and others are developing a national drone plan' in conjunction with BAE Systems. The stated aim is to introduce the system in time for the 2012 Olympics. Initially, Kent police stated that the system would be used to monitor shipping lanes and illegal immigrants, but the documents reveal that this was part of a PR strategy: 'There is potential for these [maritime] uses to be projected as a "good news" story to the public rather than more "big brother."' However, the documents talk about a much wider range of usage, such as '[detecting] theft from cash machines, preventing theft of tractors and monitoring antisocial driving,' as well as 'road and railway monitoring, search and rescue, event security and covert urban surveillance.' Also, due to the expense involved, it has also been suggested that some data could be sold off to private companies, or the drones could be used for commercial purposes."
On the surface, this does not seem like a bad idea. If the drone is just capturing video of what is out in the open for all to see anyway, I don't have a problem with a drone recording it. What is a bit troubling is that we know that some of the military drones have infrared capability - so it would be possible in theory for one of these drones to be equipped with the same capability, allowing it to look directly into buildings and homes.
1984
But Big Brother wasn't bad, he was always there to protect you...to watch out for you. He would never hurt you.
What is really amazing isn't that they're implementing this system, it's that their rhetoric is so very similar to that from 1984. They don't call the system or the watchers big brother, but they tell you that it's for your protection, only bad people have anything to fear, and generally have a nearly indistinguishable attitude about it. The only difference is the name. But not many actually read 1984 I suppose (from the general populace, geeks here not included) so most people I imagine don't realize the similarities in rhetoric.
This is obviously a bad thing, and makes me very cautious about even wanting to enter the UK. Yikes.
'[detecting] theft from cash machines, preventing theft of tractors and monitoring antisocial driving,'
They're either going to have tens of thousands of them or hoping to get really lucky.
Also, due to the expense involved, it has also been suggested that some data could be sold off to private companies, or the drones could be used for commercial purposes
So we'll see TV shows featuring footage captured by drones?
Google might buy it too but if its targeting people it'll make obscuring faces harder.
I am a free slashdotter. I will not be modded, blogged, DRM'd, patented, podcasted or RFID'd. My life is my own.
with interference in:
Afghanistan, Israel, Iraq, Pakistan, India, Hong Kong, Australia, United States, and Canada.
Just follow the money trail for the bribes from the manufactuer.
Yours In Ulyanovsk,
Kilgore Trout
In the United States, we'll shoot at helicopters with actual people in them. If Homeland Security tried to spy on us with drones, it would become a sport to shoot them down. And they WOULD go down, too. Lots of expensive wreckage.
I hear in the UK you've got people dropping tires on traffic cameras and setting them on fire. Your hearts are in the right place, but it's tough to get a tire over a UAV.
They've been doing this for a while now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h31VSf1_rk
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
The slippery slope is your attitude that "if it's in the open, they can record it." Because for the last ten thousand years of human civilization THIS HAS NOT BEEN TRUE. So to say there is no effect from this radical change in human circumstances is either naive or disingenuous.
It must clickthrough to theonion.
preventing theft of tractors and monitoring antisocial driving
What the heck is 'antisocial driving'? A car driving separate from the other cars because it is shy and lacks social skills?
Apart from being far cheaper and safer, how is this different from police helicopters they already use and have been using for over twenty years?
Was going to try for "In before 'hurr ya magically lose yer fancy right to privamacy when ya go to da outsidez!'", but I suspect that bullshit travels faster than light.
Just pair this program with this and you've got the perfect captive audience.
Since wage-slaves can't be paid enough to focus on monitors for hours on end, just recruit the populace. The upside is that if you're an especially good snitch they can let you pilot a drone as a reward. Then they can make a TV show about that, a weekly feature to show off the citizen response to the dangers of knife crime and truancy.
Who needs a community of people working for the common good when technology can step in and keep us apart?
You can't impose Draconian surveillance and anti-privacy laws immediately. The British government are imposing them the only way they can, by slowly freezing Britain into a harsh moral winter.
Since most police officers in the UK dont carry firearms this would or could be a faster response then sending out the Armed response vehicles. So I do wonder how long it will take them to arm the drones, after all what harm could that possibly do ... That way you can stop all them tractor thieves and cashpoint burglers dead in the their tracks.
Politicians take note: George Orwell's Ninteen Eighty-Four is not a manual for statecraft.
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
"... to City 17."
Helicopters are already here. I don't see any outrage over those.
Besides, it's a little late to say "oh you know we may have privacy issues" in the UK of all places. There's a camera on every street corner and then some.
I'm not for this or against it. IMHO it's just like a helo circling all day which in some places, like LA, is not too far from the current reality.
The fear factor works everytime!
Slowly turn up the heat.
If you crank up the heat too fast, the frog jumps out of the pot. Turn the heat up slowly, and the frog will not notice until it's too late.
What are the laws going to be on probable cause to stop someone that is on "candid camera"?
What I mean is, if it spots you jaywalking, can they just follow you around and order local units to stop you? If you're walking by a street vendor and they see you reach into a bin, then moments later just happen to put your hand in your pocket, are they allowed to detain and search you?
Anecdotal evidence here, take this as you will.
A few years back I joined a "Citizens Police Academy". Basically, at its core, it is a PR program setup to bring the community and its police together. We got to basically take a free 10 week course meeting once a week where we went over the basics of all the police duties.
Personally, I got to partake in classes where they taught you about evidence gathering, etc. We got to do mock pull overs in the parking lot (quite interesting scenarios), I got to go on ride alongs (4 hours "on the beat" with an officer), I got to fire their weapons at their range, and I also got to partake (although limited) in on site SWAT training where I got to be the bad guy and we basically played hide and seek.
The most enlightening part of the whole experience, as well as my point, lie in the ride along.
Once nighttime hit, we were patrolling the back roads and an out of town car was just going along doing its thing. The driver, as far as myself and the officer were concerned, was obeying the traffic laws. However, the officer I was with had a hunch that this kid might be up to "something".
We followed him for a bit waiting for him to screw up. Although, we were certain he knew we were behind him (crown vic headlights are easily spotted when you know what they look like). Eventually the car we were following pulled off onto a private driveway.
The officer still was suspicious of his activity and wanted a reason (probable cause) to stop him. So we quickly u-turned and headed out to a "lookout" spot above the side street the officer expected him to exit from. The reason he wanted a good lookout spot was to see if he would not come to a complete stop at a particular stop sign.
Interestingly enough, the kid did come out the way the officer was expecting, however, he did come to a complete, 2 second, stop. No probable cause.
We followed him for a while longer and finally, the kid didn't come to a complete stop at another stop sign. Bam, cue the flashing lights and Signal 6.
While I wasn't allowed out of the vehicle, I noticed him take his time in talking to the driver. Smelling for smells and looking for things to see.
In the end, no ticket was written and it was a simple stop. However, I'm sure the kid had no idea we were 100% focused on stopping _him_ for the better part of half an hour.
We had no reason to suspect anything and simply followed him long enough until he made a simple and honest mistake. At that point the noose was tightened and we had Probable Cause to interrupt his night for no other reason than to quench the curiosity of a random police officer.
**For the record I want to state I didn't sense any malice or any power trip from the officer I was with. I also want to state that I won't second guess the intuition and gut feelings of police officers who deal with scum on a day to day basis. You never know when they will be right, then again, shoot a gun blindly into an ocean enough times and eventually you'll catch dinner.**
Now is this same thing going to be commonplace with drones overhead? Are officers going to look for anyone they find interesting and purposely waste time following them until the person does _anything_ to trip probable cause?
This just reeks of abuse of power and reeks of "show me your papers". Sure, you'll still need Probable Cause (hopefully) to stop the person, but with an unseen eye watching your every move from above, what are the chances you _won't_ do _something_ to trip PC and have your privacy invaded?
The potential here is scary...
lets hope they use these,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MQ-1_Predator
(Iraq insurgents hack into video feeds, which are not encrypted, using a $26 Russian software named SkyGrabber. The encryption for the ROVER feeds were removed for performance reasons.)
i might buy myself some Satellite tuning card / dish.
Exactly what the difference between using these UAV's and the helicopters that they have already been flying for over a decade, these helicopters have long had the ability to do infrared/night vision. So don't act shocked. Also I see a couple references to 1984 and some fear mongering about it "peering into the windows in my home"; well that is simply fear mongering and don't stress yourself out mentally over it.
These UAV's fly at a certain elevation like they do in America they have to register with their equivalent of the FCC(UK Civil Aviation Authority), so it's not like these UAV's are gonna be flying down in the streets between buildings and looking at people.
If anything I would think this would be a money saver from having to pay 2 pilots six figures and heavy maintenance with a regular helicopter.
You say the word 'UAV' and there is a knee jerk reaction around here to yell about privacy and 1984 for some reason.
Anyways here's a decent link to actually look at what the UAV might look like, although they might scale it down for police use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_HERTI
Strong and peaceful, wise and brave, Fighting the fight for the whole world to save, We the people will ceaselessly strive To keep our great revolution alive! Unfurl the banners! Look at the screen! Never before has such glory been seen! Oceania! Oceania! Oceania, 'tis for thee! Every deed, every thought, 'tis for thee! Every deed, every thought, 'tis for thee! Every deed, every thought, 'tis for thee!
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Well, I guess this had to happen. Full fail for street level cameras for billions, so the only option left is to go full retard.
One cannot even argue that this is a responsible use of public funds:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/6082530/1000-CCTV-cameras-to-solve-just-one-crime-Met-Police-admits.html
Of course, tourist photos must be deleted though, you know, in the name of public safety. Where is the "shake my head in disbelief" animated icon again?
- - - Non Caffeine Drink or Drink Error
Didn't they already say that all of their cameras didn't help solve crimes? So why do they need drones now?
the undersides and such or have it tow a big big banner.
This Surveillance Drone is sponsored by Big Brother, MTV 7pm daily.
More than likely the revenue model will be new crimes for which there is a nice monetary penalty attached. Perhaps we can combine this with the Global Warming cabal and fine people for barbecue grills or too much outdoor lighting.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Wasn't there a UK study released last year that showed all their CCTV's didn't make a thimble's worth difference on the crime stats?
And when the massive tracking database of 'observations' is hacked and used against the populace, this will be seen as evidence of a need for MORE surveillance.
When it comes to data:
To PROTECT it,
Don't COLLECT it.
Really - only criminals (predominantly of foreign (muslim) origin) carrying guns, police carrying MP5s at every streetcorner, all kinds of surveillance running rampant.
Britain is gone. British no longer have the will or the means to save themselves, they have already in spirit surrendered to muslims and while the process will take some time, it will happen unless they find a fucking clue and stop treating their own british-born citizen like sheep.
'Once scientists, even the dim-witted social scientists, get muzzled, the Western Civilization is finished.' - oldhack
Why is this really necessary for the UK? Don't you folks have like 1 camera for every 10(or is it 15?) people? Is that not enough? Do you really need more surveillance? Why not better utilize the surveillance you currently have? Why add under utilized surveillance on top of under utilized surveillance? I don't understand. ~Z
He only had to do all that "probable cause" thing because you were there. Without you in tow, the cop could have stopped the driver and just SAID the driver had broken some law. And who's the judge gonna believe?
the advanced tech previously used was called "human witness". sometimes this tech was updated to a more advanced model called "private investigator"
and even if there were no drones, you have this thing called the cell phone camera, in the hands of every teenager
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
What a great idea! Wow I wish I'd thought of this. The UK is really on the cutting edge here. I don't see any possibility of anything going wrong or being misused here!
The only improvement I’d make is to use RFID to chip every member of the UK population just to be sure.
I'm interested in this technology, can we import it to my home planet?
I want the blueprints for the Stinger missile.
So now UK cops will be able to "look down dresses" and follow scantily clad females remotely, with video to take home afterward? COOL!
As opposed to the numerous civilian spy drones? Why don't they just go buy a bunch of Parrot drones and use their iPhones?
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
I expect that the main motive in these drones is some company making a profit. Crime did not drop with CCTV cameras so all they really accomplish it to make a couple of people who were already rich, richer.
As a defensive procedure, the drones will be equipped with rocket launchers to eliminate attackers and keep the population, err, I mean crime, under control.
Why is it *every* time I hear something about the UK and their "latest idea" for "policing the masses", I wind up getting flashbacks of a certain Stanly Kubrick movie???? Seriously, that man was warning you people! (specifically the part where Alex DeLarge's ex-gangbanger friends wind up as cops)
"When I am king, you will be first against the wall..."
Air surveillance of criminals by fixed wing aircraft, as well as high altitude balloons and satellites has been the norm over some American cities for at least two decades. We even have robotic, miniature submarines that hunt vessels used by drug runners. What most bad guys don't know is how distant a fixed wing aircraft can be and still track a vehicle. In essence if anyone ever wanted to be a criminal the era has come and gone for them. These days they will be caught even though cops may wait years to actually make the arrests which enables them to establish career criminal status and lock these fools up for life without parole.
I'm getting Half Life 2 flashbacks here...
With baseball caps.
i.e. What all the yoofs wear to prevent identification by CCTV camera. Works like a charm given the success cameras have been at reducing crime.
Deleted
Aeon Flux.
This sounds eerily close to the plot of V for Vendetta. What's next, installing directional microphones on these things?
I have a bad feeling about this...
But we've always been at war with eurasia.
SQL programmer goes to a bar. Walks up to two tables and says 'Excuse me, may I join you?'.
These guys are behind the times. US police forces are already ahead of them.
here's a local Houston TV news report.
Maybe they'll catch a crop circle as it is being made.
I've nothing but sympathy for the people of the U.K. They can't have guns to counter extreme government. They are taxed to the hilt to pay for their own persecution. They've put up with this and more for years while dealing with social class as being somehow important. Yet they seem ,by and large to remain fairly jolly and rationalize their sodomizing by the government as necessary for all.
Humans long to live free with government playing a small role. The U.K., Australia, Canada and soon the U.S. are the opposite of this.
Perhaps we should stage a world revolution at some point, overthrow the lot of them and just start over. If not for ourselves, then for those to come.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Upon ascertaining that the jaywalker had returned to his flat at #12, Wellington Gardens, the controller launched a Hellfire missile...
Honestly, the UK is already the most monitored country, with little real result. This won't be any more beneficial to anyone, the authorities included!
The antisocial driving bit is pretty scary. What exactly does that mean? I can't hold my own Death Race anymore? Or is to prevent a resurgence of Kit's evil brother Kar.
"Stupid, uninformed opinion" != "Troll"
>> a much wider range of usage, such as '[detecting] theft from cash machines, preventing theft of tractors and monitoring antisocial driving,'
Ahh the truth will out. Has there been an country-wide epidemic of tractor thefts recently? Is it practical to use an aircraft that can't hover to surveil ATMs? I think not. Now guess which one they REALLY want drones for.
I really can't imagine that our wonderful police would generate all those lame excuses just to cover up that they really just want drones as yet another way to generate even more revenue from drivers that momentarily stray over already devisively low speed limits. Surely not.
When will the police actually go after real criminals instead of finding new and devious ways to repeatedly bully soft targets like us road users?
UK Police already have something similar to this in that they've had aeroplanes constantly circling over various cities for the past few years. For example: http://www.gmp.police.uk/mainsite/pages/asu.htm and http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/226/226142_spyplane_warning_over_eid_celebrations.html
Is this really what my grandad fought to defend with is life in world war 2?
Lots of people are using jaywalking as an example non-crime in these comments. Just so you all know, jaywalking is not generally against UK law; the only places you can't do it are motorways (where anyone going less than 50mph will cause problems), railway crossings while the barrier is down, and small patches of road next to lit pedestrian crossings. Everywhere else, it's your judgement.
Now, for the technology itself, I think it will help catch a lot of minor criminals, rural fly-tippers, and an unexpectedly large number of farm-animal-fancying zoophiles, but it will have very little effect on organised crime. Why? Dazzle from small lasers. What's the cost of a CD/DVD burner?
I don't like perfect surveillance - this country has too many laws for any one person to know, so I have no idea if I'm breaking any or not.
24 is future with the tech they they have there.
And for going out in family a mexican sombrero.
By that logic you would put blind bobbies on the beat. You can't police a public space unless you can detect crime. In an ideal world, you'd have an actual police officers capable of intervening, preventing the crime from continuing and hopefully catching the culprit. But we don't live in an ideal world; police officers cost money and nobody wants to pay for them with tax rises. If you can cheaply detect a crime, and hopefully provide evidence that can be used to gain a conviction in court, surely that's better than not detecting it at all?
What is it about surveillance that prevents people from going about their ordinary lives? Nothing. It's less intrusive than a stop-and-search or stop-and-account.
I'm sure that this will get me on the UK fuzz shit list, but since the the government is dead set on spying on people for no really good reason, has anyone done any research on what it would take to bring one of these drones down?
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Britain is gone. British no longer have the will or the means to save themselves, they have already in spirit surrendered to muslims and while the process will take some time, it will happen unless they find a fucking clue and stop treating their own british-born citizen like sheep.
It's not the Muslim religion's agenda to take over the world. It was the British Empire's. If you're going to make sterotypical comments like that, then you ought to remember what your "british-born" citizens have to atone for.
The Internet's nature is peer to peer - 20050301_cs_profs.pdf
So, on a completely unrelated topic...
Has anyone started thinking about how one could shoot one of these things down sans a SAM, in a way than won't hurt anyone?
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Maybe it's time that we in the USA take back our native homeland, by force, and clean up the mess our cousins across the pond have found themselves in.
And no, I am not kidding.
experimenting with this. So far, it's only being done with a few "problem" families on welfare, but that's how it always starts. If one wants to restrict civil liberties, the public test case is always an unpopular minority... but it never stops there.
Tech Public Policy stuff
is there no limit to the police's (State's) powers in England?
"To stop the terrorists."
How long till they admit these are armed drones?
I am the unwilling control for my Origin.
Are they coming equipped with missiles ? That would provide an extra thrill to public life as we know it !!!
If Brits do no to go to Afghanistan, Afghanistan Spy Drones can come to haunt Brits in their own country ! What an extraordinary and exotic place Britain is turning into !!!
that analogy is now retired. Time for a new one! (BTW, thanks for the link)
"Apart from being far cheaper and safer, how is this different from police helicopters they already use and have been using for over twenty years?"
That was my thought as well.
I see having a remote vehicle as a way to save some money. No need for one or two human pilots and passengers on expensive police helicopters, costing millions $US.
Seems to make sense to replace them with remote operator/pilots, and the usual police cameras and such.
If they are smaller, then they might be 'greener' too, in terms of fuel use.
Uh, Linux geek since 1999.
uk is pretty much down the loo entirely as of now .
Read radical news here
Nobody can believe Social Security is a rousing success?
Seriously; nobody is that stupid are they? Hint SS is about to bankrupt us. A Ponzi scheme to make Madoff look like a piker.
Further rural electrification has been accomplished for 40 years. Yet it still wastes tax dollars.
Try again.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Actually it does, Racism is by definition wrong. Quoteth Wikipedia
"Racism is the belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race."
Racism is about the inherent superiority of one race over all others or the inherent inferiority of one race against all others. Tell me again, this can be right.
Once again, this is utter tripe. I've heard this cultural invasion crap all my life, normally from the less educated drunkards and imbeciles. When I was 6, I was told by the local racist society that I'd never get a job when I grew up because of all the Asians entering Australia. Guess what, I got a job and the Asian children I went to school with speak English and go to the same pubs I do. This "cultural invasion" nonsense has been around for generations and has never proven to be true. Now we are being "culturally invaded" by Muslims, 20 years ago they said the same thing about the Gooks (Asians), when my dad was my age they said the same things about the Wogs (Greeks) and when my granddad was my age the same was said about the Paddies (do Ihave to explain this one). The ideas of ignorant racism is as old as Australia, they've never changed despite has been proven wrong time and time again, they only ever switch targets.
I wouldn't want to imagine how poor my nation would be, economically and culturally if not for the introduction of new peoples and ideas. Where would we (Australia) be without the Kebab, the local Chinese take out or the pint of Guinness and all of this has not crushed the humble meat pie. Culture cannot inbreed like a redneck without becoming as ignorant and moronic as the redneck.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
We are nearing the technological threshold in which we can do many (and someday all) of the things in 1984, Equilibrium, Minonrity Report, and many other similar stories.
Monitoring technology will have a "point of no return" where getting our governments to revert the laws and give us back our privacy rights will not come without a greivous amount of bloodshed.
Why is it that every time i see a story out of the UK these days, I think of the film "V for Vendetta"? It seems like some subset of the UK public service has been taken over by evil doers trying to create 1984 and indeed, Big Brother.
Just sayin...
"Exterminate" repeated politely with an English accent by a monocle-wearing robot.
o hai
I don't have a problem with a drone recording it.
I would. It would be fun if the public gets access to the video recordings. I'd set up a website offering a £1000 prize for the first beating caught on video.
Excellent news, how about I shoot out a drone from the sky with my rifle. I am still an awesome sniper and can hit a target within a 7 inch radius consistently from 500 yards. Poor poor drone, it will not see it coming, but I would love to see it short circuit. I also have some 800 MW lasers to twat it with. This is truly unacceptable having drones in the sky. I promise I will shoot a few down. If you do not like it revoke my FAC (FireArms Certificate) http://www.met.police.uk/firearms_licensing/faqs.html I do not want to see footage of me having sex with my girlfriend by a drone. BASTARDS!
All cows eat grass!
Technology will give the police the power they need to mercilessly gun down hundreds of people in tube stations simultaneously, rather than one at a time as they used to. Also, auto-fabricators will be able to make up a misleading account of events in each case. But it is excellent to see further association of the Blair olympics with authoritarianism: a few more stories like this and the connection will be inescapable. But what did they expect when they started the whole charade by allowing the Chinese secret police to beat up protestors on the streets of London during the 2008 torch procession, as the police and 2012 collaboration committee looked on?
..CTU already has the skies over Manhattan filled with drones...they said so during hours 1 and 2...
They have had police helicopters for decades, which can do the exact same thing.
I think this is a great idea, I mean for every police station out there, I also think they should legalize being able to use infrared to know the speed a car is going, so you send out your drones, and they do the speed ticketing/radar gun replacement. Less money on manpower, and less money on gas and repairs on vehicles.
You could also us them to ascertain the status of a situation before going in guns blazing, such as a hostage situation.
You could also use them to cover a whole city with about 10 of these drones at all times, so as to need eyes at certain spots for
traffic situation, or for helping someone know where a suspect is running to if they are on foot, and faster then the cops
(cus they love to the eat jelly doughnuts)....so less criminals would get away.
Many uses for the cops in present day situation, I am wondering why they just caught on now???
Sure. The number of starving/broke retirees would be a lot higher without Social Security.
Maybe, if nothing changes (like immigration laws, retirement age, or an insane regressive taxation) by 2047 the SS system may be in the red. That's 37 years to fix it. Now, I grant, if taxation still gets capped at some ridiculously low number (100k-ish) and retirement age doesn't rise to keep up with life expectancy, then we will be in trouble. But probably not too much.
It's an old-age income assurance program. Thinking of it as a retirement account is the problem. The first people to get paid didn't put anything into the system. It's not an investment club.
In large part it has. A successful program. But it also has to pay for new rural lines (new farmhouses being built) and maintence.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
They have had police helicopters for decades, which can do the exact same thing.
India 99.
All cows eat grass!