Slashdot Mirror
Venezuela Bans Hostile Videogames and Toys
An anonymous reader writes "In an effort to 'help improve child education and prevent misconduct,' the Venezuelan government began enforcing a law on March 3rd banning war videogames and toys, imposing a fine and 2.5 years in prison on the production, distribution, sale, hiring and use of video games and toys inciting violent behavior. Alberto Federico Ravell, former director of opposing news network Globovision, has already come on twitter denouncing the authorities for seizing imported Gameboy, Wii and PlayStation 3 consoles, due to considering them violent."
As a gamer this saddens me. As a parent I applaud the effort. However, seizing the consoles seems overboard. Many non-violent games exist. Seize the games, not the consoles.
Where genius and insanity become confused true wisdom is found
Tinpot dictator does something stupid. Story at 11.
If they have no video games they'll go outside and play ... and then encounter other children who are being forced to have 'fun' ... which of course will result in some altercations ... a percentage of these will be violent ... and viola! They no longer need video games to incite violent behavior. Problem solved.
I heard that there was almost no gun control in the country
Look in the mirror pal.
...on the way to becoming a repressive police state with a crazy dictator - oh wait.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Im Venezuelan, linving in Venezuela. And the seizing of gaming consoles is a lie. The new law, bans violent games and toys. So since yesterday no violent videogames can be imported or sold. The goverment will refund the stores who have violent videogames on their shelves so they dont lose their investment, as same for violent toy. Thats all, Alberto Federico Ravell is a liar and a media terrorist.
Nice Troll, but if you want responses you should create an account. Also you might want to add some stuff about how these games are clearly for children.
What are they going to do when a kid picks up a stick and pretends it's a gun?
I'd like to see what happens. I do not support this ban, but I look forward to reading about its effect on the behavior and crimes of children and young adults (assuming that a few years from now, someone manages to get good data about the behavior of children).
A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
He was elected to being with, and that election seems to have been fair. However since then he has been taking increasingly underhanded methods of retaining power, stifling dissent and so on.
Do remember that a large number of dictators are elected to power initially. They then just misuse the power and suppress freedom. That someone was elected initially doesn't mean they aren't a dictator now.
Government banning violent video games in Venezuela?!?
At least in video games it's virtual violence.
Perhaps it's due to a guilty conscience that they are putting this in place. Any other explanation would simply make my head implode due to the density of hippocrasy.
Funny though how all thought stops when you "think of the children!" (tm)
Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
This is exactly the direction the United States is headed. Everyone expects the government to protect them from everything, because we claim no responsibility for our own behavior. I had no problem telling my kids they couldn't play certain games because they were too violent or offensive, but unfortunately good parenting skills and responsible people seem to be harder and harder to find.
Fortunately, we have our government to protect us from ourselves....
[Citation Needed]
You'll have to forgive me if I don't believe some AC who likes to call journalists "terrorists." I find it equally probable that you are simply a supporter of Chavez who is making shit up.
So, cite or GTFO.
Palestinians electing Hamas? That's not democracy. Venezuelans electing Chavez? That's not democracy. Bolivians electing Morales? That's not democracy. Spain leaving Iraq because 95% oppose the war? That's not democracy.
Pinochet taking over Chile? Triumph of democracy! America invading Iraq? Triumph of democracy! The CIA and the Shah taking over Iran? Triumph of democracy! Turkey supporting the Iraq war against the will of it's populace? Triumph of democracy!
All you have to do is replace "democracy" with "American interests" and it all makes sense.
hypocrisy
Perhaps so, but reasons and what-ifs aside, I wonder how they plan to block the vast amount of browser games that are certainly violent? How do you stop the internets?
Do they really think it's possible to put a block on every violent game link? What about phone games? I seem to recall that Quake 1 just got ported to Andriod or iPhone?
Interesting stance for a government to take, but really, honestly, truly. Goodluckwiththat.
Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
Well if this plays out anything like the Japanese pornographic censorship it may just create the sickest most violent media ever conceived, see tentacle erotica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tentacle_erotica). Excerpt: "the practice [was invented] to get around strict Japanese censorship regulations, which prohibit the depiction of the penis but apparently do not prohibit showing sexual penetration by a tentacle or similar (often robotic) appendage."
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
How DARE you talk about Ms. Pelosi that way! She's the duly elected... Oh, wait, nevermind.
However I AM saying that he's a dictator.
Good for Venezuela! And FUCK YOU to game companies that manipulate the natural aggressive impulses in small children and others into game play. Just who do these fuckers think they are - messing with the minds of kids that are still in pre-school. Also, a special shout out to the irresponsible parents who let their kids play these games. I have seen 5 year old kids playing the most violent games, and then going on to emulate and model what they play in real life. It's like handguns. We are a pretty stupid society in certain ways - and great in others. Letting the worst kind of violent images into our kid's heads is just plain IGNORANT. Oh, yeah, I'm a cognitive neuroscientist; I know a fair amount about how young brains model certain kinds of behavior, and the harm that leads to in terms of how those young brains frame conflict situation, and solutions for resolving them. FUCK YOU! EA, and every other company that makes this shit and lets it get into the minds of our kids - for what? - for your fucking stockholders??! You're a bunch of greedy sociopaths.
Aren't they distributing hostile flash videogames? Should all flash, silverlight, advanced html5 and java be blocked to avoid breaking the law?
Internet is the ultimate test to tell when some law is just stupid, and you don't need to be a "benevolent dictator" to have in your portfolio a lot of that kind of laws.
The capitol of Venezuela also happens to have the highest per capita murder rate in the world. They just seem to be following the rest of the world...if you cant blame someone blame video games and anyone who doesnt want to be one of those statistics knows not to blame Chavez's regime.
So, in your crazy little head, assassinating someone - which the CIA and our proxy Mossad do regularly - is the activity of a thuggish dictatorship...
I guess when Chavez plots an assassination of a government we subsidize, that's a crime. However, when we carry out plotted assassinations against our enemies, it's justice. Yes, it makes perfect sense to me now!
Hypocrisy? What's that, a new Morrissey cover band?
.... we understand that "Ugliness" and "Fatness" are genetic disorders, much like baldness or necrophilia, and it's only your fault if you don't hate yourself enough to do something about it.
When it comes to news about Venezuela, I'm bias-sensitive. There's a political divide there that is ten times as vicious as it is here. With that in mind, I'm confused about this bit of the summary, "former director of opposing news network Globovision." How does that fit in context?
Also, I understand that Venezuela has the highest murder rate of any country in the world. That seems like some necessary context for a law that punishes things that appear to encourage violent behavior.
A country without hockey!
Sadly, the real world is nowhere near as depraved and decadent as it is in the mind of conservatives.
As much as I hate censorship, I do agree with this sentiment. Has anyone actually sat down and watched a kids' show? Ben10 has something like 10 violent acts every 3 minutes.
Being anti-censorship does not mean "anything goes". I am the primary carer (uncle for my adopted nephew) for a 4 year old, and I can tell you there is a marked increase in hyperactive behavior, aggression and general lack of control for hours after watching Nickelodeon. Consequently, I have banned TV in my house. It was a few days of tantrums, but he's gotten over it, and the improvement in behavior is astonishing.
I flatly refuse to accept that what we watch does not affect us. Movies like Saw and Hostel simply cannot be psychologically inert, the content is just too potent.
"Down with censorship" and "down with psychologically and socially destructive media" are NOT mutually exclusive in the same way that "down with government control" and "down with harming your neighbor" are also not mutually exclusive. Lets grow up past the idea that any control of media that has a negative social impact is censorship and should be fought. Media *can* have a negative impact on social behavior and mental health. Get over it.
I hate printers.
I'm not a fan of censorship but I'd love it if my government made it more difficult for kids to get realistic war games.
Everyone I know that favours FPS games are under 25. It seems the older crowd prefers RPG and RTS. I guess my age group (40+) just doesn't make up much of the gaming market.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_iygNwIr-k
Game designers? We have a special jail for game designers.
A child isn't a thinking being in quite the same way that a mature adult is. They're constantly looking for input to learn from. A forming mind is easy to manipulate. Violent content can shape their minds in possibly unhealthy ways. Later on in life, when a person's personality and behavior have stabilized, I don't think the mind is as easy to harm.
Looking at it from an evolutionary perspective, the human race grew up doing some nasty things, and individuals evolved to take in those experiences, survive, and still be excellent members of society. Yes, violent media *can* have a negative impact on behavior and the mind, but given our specie's past, I don't think it's as likely as you are guessing. And I certainly don't believe that it's reason enough to deny adults' rights to movies, video games, etc. Even gun toys for kids, frankly...
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
First of all, you are trivializing the lives of millions that died in WWII by comparing what happened to them to this trivial thing.
Secondly, you are singling- out Venezuela/Chavez from what is a worldwide trend. here is an incomplete list of stuff you can't do by country, recent:
-- Venezuela - no violent video games
-- Italy - soccer players can't say "God damn it" on the field
-- USA - people can't photograph bridges or buildings
-- France - no burkas (?)
If you had just relaxed a little bit before you posted you would have realized loss of freedom is a worldwide problem
Preach it, brother!
/sarcasm
I know for a FACT that violence has always been the heart and soul of video games! Did you know that the first video game, Pong, was based on two bullies pushing a nerd back and forth between them, with the "loser" being the one who didn't get in the last push before the nerd ran away?
UNIX: Find it, fsck it, forget it.
If a game or toy started to be hostile I'd probably want to ban it too.
Aside from the weird word usage, this is just another example of games being in that comic-book ghetto of being "for kids." That hasn't really been true for a long time.
If ratings aren't enough to guide people to buy age-appropriate entertainment in general, then do they intend to start banning books, movies, and other media that may depict war or violence? Probably not, but I guess no one cares about being consistent in these matters.
Which is why I'll shortly be pitching my new product line, "Fondle Me Elmo"
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
The way things are developing right now in Venezuela, in a couple months we'll have no electricity to power our violent video games anyway.
It's another violation of our rights, but it'll have to take the back seat while we deal with the hijacked supreme court, the lack of separation of powers, 12000+ violent deaths a year, the constants attacks on freedom on speech and the money unlawfully gifted by Chavez to foreign countries while lobbying for its revolution and the 21'st century socialism, and estimated over 50 billion dollars.
This could be called my two cents, but being in Venezuela I can't exchange local to foreign currency freely, another right violation that's 6 years old and counting.
Will add sig later...
You are more than welcome to think what you want. Please explain this: Youth violence is at its lowest levels in a long time.
Stop Global Warming!
Just say no to irreversible processes!
Please see this book (and my other previous comment here):
http://www.amazon.com/War-Play-Dilemma-Childhood-Education/dp/080774638X
I wrote a review of it here:
http://www.pdfernhout.net/the-war-play-dilemma.html
Other related books about general issues and about what has been done to girls via media (and poor nutrition):
http://www.amazon.com/Supernormal-Stimuli-Overran-Evolutionary-Purpose/dp/039306848X
http://www.amazon.com/So-Sexy-Soon-Sexualized-Childhood/dp/0345505077
And something every caregiver should know now that kids spend a lot of time indoors and have become vitamin D deficient:
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/treatment.shtml
We got rid of broadcast TV long ago too (we do use DVDs like Mr. Rogers and nature videos, and selected YouTube).
While I don't recommend any screen media for younger kids if you can avoid it, this site is pretty good for age four:
http://www.poissonrouge.com/
As is this:
http://www.starfall.com/
For older ages, some good things are:
http://www.learner.org/
http://www.khanacademy.org/
http://www.cosmolearning.com/
A caregiver needs to create a safe nurturing environment within a child's needs and abilities. You are doing the right thing.
Other useful links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parenting_styles
http://www.motherstyles.com/
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Also, kids need to learn the irony that in a world full of fancy computers and advanced manufacturing (like depicted in many such violent games), fighting over land or oil is just ironically stupid, instead of using that technology to make the world work for everyone. The unrecognized irony is more deadly than those games.
How about making the machinery work for its rightful owners?
You, sir, are walking a line dangerously close to communism! (prepare to be modded troll)
There is no seizing of consoles, that is a lie. However, this stupid law is true. In short, any sale, rent, distribution or even promotion of video games with any sort of "violence" in it, can get you 3 to 5 years in jail.
It is explained in the law proposal that this is meant to protect the children from violence, but there is no exception for adults. Yes, for ages 18+ porn is legal, prostitution is legal, bearing firearms (with permit) is legal, but video games? no sir.
Most game software companies will be unable to sell their products, the most affected are of course console games.
I oppose this law and the constitution (art. 74) allows a referendum to revoke it. The question is, will enough people get together to start this?
Here is the law in the official print (in spanish).
Key excerpts from this law (forgive my translation):
Article 3.1
War videogame: Those videogames or programs usable in personal computers, arcade systems, video(game)consoles, portable devices or mobile phones and any other electronic or telematic device, which contain information or symbolism images promoting or inciting violence or use of weapons.
Article 14
Any who import, manufacture, sell, rent or distribute war videogames or war toys, shall be penalized with prison from 3 to 5 years.
Artix
Your Linux, your init.
I wonder where the hell you get the idea that here in Venezuela people pay attention to the law. And for once, the media terrorist are people like you, who pretend call out on the very few people with the guts to yell to the world the fact that this (and anything that Chavez asks the assembly to do, an assembly who's bassically an excuse for Chavez to do whatever the hell he wants) is a distinctive unfair law. And you show me what kind of store gets refunded by a government who has proved the most corrupt in the history of Venezuela. Get a grip.
Oblivion Awaits
Barack is way better than Chavez, and I'm not particularly pro-Obama. And this is coming from a Venezuelan
Damn! How long does it take you to type these great posts? It's very impressive that your entire post history appears to be so thoughtful and well-linked.
http://www.ssireview.org/articles/entry/rethinking_human_nature/
"""
In Born to Be Good, Keltner takes Eckman's insights one step further by proposing a new model of human nature that turns the conventional one on its head. Instead of the survival of the fittest, Keltner proposes the survival of the kindest. He demonstrates that in early human society prosocial behavior was the most effective survival strategy. Early humans needed to take care of "vulnerable, big-brained off spring," a job that required two parents. As a result, males evolved to know their own off - spring and to take care of them, which in turn created a fragile sexual monogamy. The hunting stronger, faster, and ferocious prey required teamwork, which turn facilitated the development of communication. Gossiping amongst the lower ranks of early humans put pressure on high-status members to build consensus rather than rule through force.
Keltner argues that emotions work to promote kindness, humanity, and respect between people, which is of immense evolutionary value. Embarrassment is a way of restoring social order by eliciting reconciliation and forgiveness after a transgression. Touching triggers a cascade of emotions, such as devotion, trust, and even a sense of reward. Compassion holds a special place in the canon of emotions (for Darwin it was the strongest instinct). Its physiological embodiment-- via the many touch points of the vagus nerve--encompasses our communicative system, heart rate, and release of oxytocin, which sends feelings of trust, love, and warmth throughout the body.
In Born to Be Good, Keltner shows that people receive significant emotional rewards when acting for the benefit of others, even when it means operating against one's self-interest. Our ability to work for the greater good comes from fundamental instincts honed over millions of years. If Keltner is right, and I think he is, our most modern problems will be solved by our most ancient responses.
"""
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Mutual security is a better answer than unilateral security (and even deterrence):
http://www.beyondintractability.org/audio/morton_deutsch/?nid=2430
Intrinsic security (sustainable, resilient infrastructure) is a better answer than extrinsic security (soldier-defended infrastructure).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittle_Power
The problem is that unilateral extrinsic security theater that actually is insecure and spawns more enemies (like in Iraq) is very profitable, according to a US Major General:
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
So, we may need to move to a society that is moving beyond the profit motive to have true security. To do that, we need a basic income, an expanding gift economy, improved local subsistence with 3D printing and organic gardening, more resource-based planning, a push to turn work into play, and other similar things, if we are to be reasonably secure. As long as war is profitable and profits are worshiped, we will have endless war.
Censoring the games won't fix that. People tend to turn to addictive behavior when they are under stress.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park
We need to improve society so there is less bad stress. One part of that is improving general human health now that we all spend so much time indoors:
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/treatment.shtml
Another part is making sure everyone feels secure in the basics.
http://www.basicincome.org/bien/aboutbasicincome.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms
And then more things flow from there.
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Thanks for the first hand report.
An alternative approach instead of censorship is to just put a heavy tax on certain media, because of the cost it may impose on society:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality
"""
In economics, an externality or spillover of an economic transaction is an impact on a party that is not directly involved in the transaction. In such a case, prices do not reflect the full costs or benefits in production or consumption of a product or service. An advantageous impact is called an external benefit or positive externality, while a detrimental impact is called an external cost or negative externality. Producers and consumers in a market may either not bear all of the costs or not reap all of the benefits of the economic activity. For example, manufacturing that causes air pollution imposes costs on the whole society, while fire-proofing a home improves the fire safety of neighbors.
In a competitive market, the existence of externalities would cause either too much or too little of the good to be produced or consumed in terms of overall costs and benefits to society. If there exist external costs such as pollution, the good will be overproduced by a competitive market, as the producer does not take into account the external costs when producing the good. If there are external benefits, such as in areas of education or public safety, too little of the good would be produced by private markets as producers and buyers do not take into account the external benefits to others. Here, overall cost and benefit to society is defined as the sum of the economic benefits and costs for all parties involved.
"""
Media that contributes to social violence, or which displaces time that could be spent on learning better solutions to social conflicts, could be considered as creating a negative externality. More on this general issue, about the dilemma between helping kids work through developmental needs to move beyond violence versus sending a message about avoiding violent solutions:
http://www.amazon.com/War-Play-Dilemma-Childhood-Education/dp/080774638X
A violent media tax could be redistributed equally to everyone as a "basic income", or it could be used to fund other projects (including other media) that promote cooperation.
http://www.basicincome.org/bien/aboutbasicincome.html
http://www.share-international.org/archives/cooperation/co_nocontest.htm
Here is another first hand report on someone from the US heading to Venezuela and then heading back to the USA, realizing they would never fit in for a variety of reasons (even as they admired aspects of the changes there):
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/110706_mcr_evolution.shtml
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
When a headline writer can employ the incoherent phrase "hostile videogames and toys" with a straight face, the battle is already lost.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms
"""
The Four Freedoms were goals articulated by US President Franklin D. Roosevelt on January 6, 1941. In an address known as the Four Freedoms speech (technically the 1941 State of the Union address), he proposed four fundamental freedoms that people "everywhere in the world" ought to enjoy:
1. Freedom of speech and expression
2. Freedom of religion
3. Freedom from want
4. Freedom from fear
"""
Freedom from want includes things like redistribution, but also socially-directed investment to create health and material abundance for all. Freedom from fear includes things like reducing violence in a society. In this case, the chose method of banning the games to free people from fear and want can be seen as conflicting with freedom of speech and expression.
I think taxing the games would have been a more sensible approach to the externality created by violent media:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality
and either redistributing the tax revenue equally to everyone, or using it to combat violence somehow and promote the creation of more pro-social media.
A tax on violent media is kind of like saying people could shout "fire" in a crowded theater, but if they do it as a prank and it makes trouble for everyone, they are going to pay a serious fine to reimburse everyone for the trouble they cause.
Still, it is hard to say how much different games (violent or not) really harm society. A worse general problem is that people spending too much time indoors playing any sort of game (or even reading books) become vitamin D deficient.
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/
So, should all games and books have a tax on them for that?
And, children do need to work through issues of violence, even as they also need to be told that violence (and other aggression) is anti-social, which creates a dilemma (discussed in this book, which recommends reducing exposure to violent media, but not banning it):
http://www.amazon.com/War-Play-Dilemma-Childhood-Education/dp/080774638X
I wrote a review of that book here:
http://www.pdfernhout.net/the-war-play-dilemma.html
"""
From the table of contents, here is the list of topics in their "Guidelines for Resolving the War Play Dilemma" (each topic has a few pages of explanation and suggestions):
* Guideline 1: Limit Children's Exposure to Violence
* Guideline 2: Help Children Engage in Creative and Meaningful Dramatic Play
* Guideline 3: Learn as Much as You Can [about the media scenes kids view]
* Guideline 4: In Children's War Play, Address the Issues
* Guideline 5: Work to Counteract the Lessons About Violence and Stereotyping
* Guideline 6: Make Keeping the Play Safe You Highest Priority
* Guideline 7: Limit the Use of Highly Structured Violent Toys
* Guideline 8: Work to Counteract Highly Stereotyped and Limiting Gender Roles
* Guideline 9: Create an Ongoing Dialog Between Educators and Parents
"""
On the broader topic of freedom, consider:
"Libertarianism: Marxism of the Right"
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2005/mar/14/00017/
"""
The most fundamental problem with libertarianism is very simple: freedom, though a good thing, is simp
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Violence in media is not the issue, its the acceptance of violence as a resolution in society that it.
I know a guy growing up, extreme fundamentalist family who filtered everything he watched, as 12 yr olds when we started watching Aliens and Terminator he was barely permitted to watch Blinky Bill. He was shipped off to a religious school as soon as was permissible and the last I heard, he'd spend his life since 18 in and out of rehab. His family of course pretends he's dead.
An anecdote yes but with a point, his parents neglected their responsibilities to prepare him for the real world. Violence is part of the real world and parents need to teach their children how to respond to it. This means teaching them the results of violence. Not all portrayed violence is bad, your examples of Saw and Hostel are extremes but when you look at other examples, even action movies like Terminator and Batman they portray the repercussions of violence (people getting hurt) and are meant to invoke the correct emotions associated with this (empathy, pity, fear).
There is also the difference between real violence and fantasy violence, games like COD which are fairly mature do not portray things in a very realistic manner, that being said it's still unsuitable for a young child (less then 12). Once again it is the responsibility of the parent to ensure a child can tell the difference between fantasy and reality the same as right and wrong. A lot of games do not have you fighting other people (humans) rather using a proxy (aliens, zombies, nazi's) to obviously abstract the idea of harming other people in the minds of the player.
In the west, we are fairly lucky (esp here in AU) where violence is not prevalent because it is not accepted. If we look at places like Thailand, culturally maintaining face is important, one way to do this is to simply kill the person who made you lose it. As violence is repugnant to the Thais and admitting to violent society would be a loss of face they simply turn a blind eye to this, ending up with one of the highest murder rates in the world. I'd be willing to bet there are similar stories of a social acceptance of violence in South Africa and Venezuela.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Err, that crap is not based on any medical study or scientific research.
Furthermore, reading it on that site is like reading climate change research on exxon.com
I hate printers.
...Venezuela banning this idiot Chavez for good?
--- Illogical Spock
I'm not talking about denying adults the right to movies, however I just cannot fathom how anyone could argue that the availability of movies like the Saw series is in the public interest.
I hate printers.
Would that include Hugo Chavez?
Government banning violent video games in Venezuela?!? At least in video games it's virtual violence.
I see they fooled you too. No, mate, you see... you can access the Internet on a Wii or a PS3. Have you noticed any of their other efforts to silence, censor and control the media? He just wants to tell people what to think so he can eternalize himself in power. And for that, he needs to de-ethernalize the people. Ignorance is bliss (for the rulers). Same as as the rest of the western world, really, except that he's not as subtle. At least here I have to strike three times.
...so far
+Raider of the lost BBS
Thanks. Well, I guess, as you predicted, others don't agree, and the first item has been modded down to (0, Troll). :-) Some people don't want to know (granted I say other stuff people may not like, too).
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1571756&cid=31365414
So has another gone down as offtopic:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1571756&cid=31365538
And another market Troll:
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1571756&cid=31366202
How citing a book by acknowledged experts on the interrelation of child development and violent media and toys is off-topic and trolling in the context of discussing banning violent videogames and toys, well, I guess that happens sometimes.
As a stay-at-home Dad (to some extent, and homeschooling) and also technology person, I've spent a lot of time thinking on this stuff, reading about it, and writing on it, (as in, years), so I have all the links etc. ready to go.
More by me on options for social progress (or regression) could be found here:
"Jobless Recovery"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobless_recovery
"[p2p-research] Rebutting Communiqué from an Absent Future (was Re: Information on student protests)"
http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/2009-November/006005.html
"Post-Scarcity Princeton"
http://www.pdfernhout.net/post-scarcity-princeton.html
"Achieving a Star Trek Society"
http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/oscomak/AchievingAStarTrekSociety.html
"A brickfilm movie idea about preventing a Caprican future"
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/cac4e38a9b68d083
As I say elsewhere, I don't think censorship is the answer to this sort of problem. Actually, I also think Chavez has the problem wrong. Violence and addictive-seeming consumption of social media happens in large part due to social stress:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park
The key is to reduce the stress, and to direct people to more positive activities.
As Bucky Fuller said:
http://challenge.bfi.org/movie
"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."
That's really what Chavez is doing wrong with this, and some other things. It's sad. Venezuela could repeal the Berne convention on copyrights, institute a basic income, expand the public library system instead of the public school system, grind up rock for fertilizer, promote cooperative games, and a variety of other more essential and effective things to create prosperity for all there. Banning the violent video games does not address any of these core issues.
Twenty years from now, when renewables replace oil (a major revenue for Venezuela) through exponential growth, and AI and robotics and better design (a better RepRap) can produce really cheap products in any industrialized country (and so they will flood in from abroad), Venezuela will be in bad shape unless it has transitioned beyond capitalist economics entirely
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Well, I guess people agree with you that citing two experts in the field on child development and violent media and games is "trolling" in the context of a discussion on banning violent video games (people who outline a nuanced view if anyone bothered to look at the book). The link again:
"The War Play Dilemma: What Every Parent And Teacher Needs to Know"
http://www.amazon.com/War-Play-Dilemma-Childhood-Education/dp/080774638X
The "dilemma" in the title is the conflict between helping kids work through developmental issues about violence vs. sending a message about violence being undesirable. I wrote a review of that book here with the key points: :-( Here is a long list of where many of our tax dollars have gone:
http://www.pdfernhout.net/the-war-play-dilemma.html
"""
From the table of contents, here is the list of topics in their "Guidelines for Resolving the War Play Dilemma" (each topic has a few pages of explanation and suggestions):
* Guideline 1: Limit Children's Exposure to Violence
* Guideline 2: Help Children Engage in Creative and Meaningful Dramatic Play
* Guideline 3: Learn as Much as You Can [about the media scenes kids view]
* Guideline 4: In Children's War Play, Address the Issues
* Guideline 5: Work to Counteract the Lessons About Violence and Stereotyping
* Guideline 6: Make Keeping the Play Safe You Highest Priority
* Guideline 7: Limit the Use of Highly Structured Violent Toys
* Guideline 8: Work to Counteract Highly Stereotyped and Limiting Gender Roles
* Guideline 9: Create an Ongoing Dialog Between Educators and Parents
In my own life, I grew up being taught in public school that I lived in a modern day Athens. As I've grow older, and paid more attention to politics and where taxes go, it feels more to me more like I live in a modern day Sparta.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_history_events
I was surprised to learn how long that list is, regardless of how one feels about the value of any specific event.
I've come to agree with the late Major General Smedley D. Butler (USMC Retired), based on his decades of combat experience, that "War is a Racket":
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
"""
Whatever you think of the rest of what I wrote, please look into the issue of vitamin D deficiency I mentioned, both for yourself and to help your family or friends or neighbors:
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/
Most slashdotters probably suffer from vitamin D deficiency, and it might help explain some of the increasing hostility and problematical posts here with people spending so much time indoors using computers, whether they are playing violent games or not:
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/depression.shtml
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/mentalIllness.shtml
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/health/autism/
But it is not just mental things; vitamin D deficiency can also contribute to joint pain, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, tooth decay,
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Really? I can't say about Hostel, but I saw Saw once (didn't have anything much better to do) and was bored as fuck. And the large popularity of these movies (and their sequels) does not seem to have been accompanied by the spike in violent crime theories like yours would seem to predict. Actually, the fact that half a dozen Saw movies have been made without the world ending would seem to strongly argue against this.
As has been often quoted, "reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, does not go away". You can "flatly refuse" to accept it if you so please, just like lots of people "flatly refuse" to accept that you can allow children to see nipples without the fabric of society crumbling, or "flatly refuse" to accept that the universe is older than a few millennia. We call these people idiots.
With regard to your little anecdote, I could think of plenty of possible alternate explanations for the same behavior, given the available data. It could be just watching TV that causes the behavior. It could be something other than violence on TV that causes it. It could be something coincidental to the TV-watching that was causing it and stopped with it. It could be any of the myriad flaws of the average person's unconscious perceptions of statistics. A proper, rigorous scientific study, of the sort you'd need to be confident on things like this, controls for problems like these; Random Internet Anecdotes do not.
And sorry, but censorship of things you personally think should be censored is still censorship. Censorship of things lots of people think should be censored is still censorship. It's not only "censorship" when it's of things you like any more than it's only "murder" when it's of people you like. Get over it.
So we should allow censorship because of your anecdotal evidence about your nephew-in-law? Thanks, but no thanks.
I flatly refuse to accept that what we watch does not affect us. Movies like Saw and Hostel simply cannot be psychologically inert, the content is just too potent.
Yeah, and I flatly believe that you're qualified to tie your own shoes, much less determine what other people can and cannot do.
As a parent I applaud the effort.
This attitude is really, really annoying to those of us who do not want children, do not have them, and do not want things to be child safe. What we need is a child-free community. I don't mean "no one under 18 can be here". I mean "you do not have a right to have a child. you cannot demand anything laws, products, rules, or actions as a result of your choice to have a child." I would move to this community in a day. So would a lot of people who are tired of the continuous whining about safety, media violence, and all the other bullshit. Were just tired of being expected to raise everyone else's kids.
Responsibility is an addiction
Virtue is a temptation
Community is a cartel
This is a dictatorship with deep financial troubles. The reasons they give for seizing valuable equipment don't bear deep inspection.
Venezuela wrote forgave Haiti $295 million in oil-related debt. South America leaders hold Haiti aid summit
It's unlikely that Chavez has forgotten or forgiven Mercenaries 2. Video game simulating invasion of Venezuela raises ire of Chavez allies
There have been other irritants in the Tom Clancy lie: Venezuela [As a Video Game Setting]
that banning videogames will get rid of crime, drugs AND slums alltogether ... what are these people ? christian OR muslim-fundamentalists ?
no, let me guess ... they're hippies in disguise ...
beware he who denies you access to information for in his mind, he already deems himself to be your master (SMAC-ish)
What are you talking about? The site cites its sources, and no, it's not based on "medical study" or "scientific research" -- because it's pulled directly from a primary source. It's in fact pulling raw data from the group in charge of crime and punishment. Either the violent toys and video games of today are bad but are being overshadowed by some massive unnamed good, or violent toys and video games have bad effects that are not crime-related, or they aren't really that bad on average.
Also, Esso's site really isn't that bad. They're an oil company so they are promoting oil technology solutions, but it's not like they're denying that climate change is an issue.
cognitive neuroscientist
Ya. Right.
"well I'm not for censorship buuuuut *this* should be censored because I think it's bad"
Freedom of speech makes no qualification about you only having the right to say something if random control freaks decide that what you're saying/writing/painting/recording/filming is in the public interest precisely because that road leads to a place there questioning our almighty leaders isn't in the public interest.
Huh... a new flavor of spin... "that's not based on a medical study!!!" .... well no of course it isn't.
It's not about medecine, it's about violence crime statistics.
Perhaps so, but reasons and what-ifs aside, I wonder how they plan to block the vast amount of browser games that are certainly violent? How do you stop the internets?
Perhaps you should ask the Iranians (incidentially, Hugo is doing exactly that). It boils down to simply :
1) use physical threats, apparently Iranian government catches you, they rape you if you're female (to make sure you don't get into heaven. Apparently in islam raped women go to hell), then have a local mob kill you (for fun), painfully. Then they threaten your family with the same if they don't come collect your body
2) firewall that allows govt to inspect any traffic they want and logs blocks, you appear to much (or even once) on the blocklist then "goto step 1"
Isn't "social justice" in government grand ?
... which is exactly why communism (like Venezuela's government) is so very very oppressive
As can be seen in Venezuela, especially doing something useful is against the public intrest. You see, it immediately leads to social injustice. If you repair your roof, see, that means you get a better roof than your neighbor who also has a broken roof. And that's just UNfair. Won't somebody think of the children ?
Of course in practice lots of children die from exposure in Venezuela. Or just plain from getting murdered. But hey at least they're socially just lives (and presumably socially just deaths. In case of a girl, probably after getting raped in a socially just way)
Help, help, I'm being repressed! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Hey, why not disband the countries army then? Violence is not the answer, you know.
"Hey, why not disband the countries army then? Violence is not the answer, you know."
Military expenditure as percentage of GDP, Venezuela: 1.06% of GDP
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=venezuela+military+spending
Military expenditure as percentage of GDP, United States: 4.28% of GDP
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=usa+military+spending
With its larger economy, and if you included interest payments and all related expenses (including incurred future obligations like for disabled soldiers), the USA spends about a trillion dollars a year on the military, so the more accurate figure may be closer to 8% of the US GDP:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States
There is nothing wrong with spending some on security if the focus is mainly about mutual security (so, everyone feels secure and part of a mutual security community, as in "We're all secure together."):
http://www.beyondintractability.org/audio/morton_deutsch/?nid=2430
and intrinsic security (sustainable resilient infrastructure as civil defense, as in "We're secure in our core infrastructure regardless of typhoon, earthquake, electromagnetic storm, crop failure, plague, or bombs."):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittle_Power
But the USA has pursued mostly a doctrine of unilateral security ("We're secure because you're insecure") and extrinsic security ("We're secure because we have soldiers everywhere guarding insecure installations.") This approach persists because it is extremely profitable for a narrow part of society, as two-time Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient Major General Smedley D. Butler (USMC) said:
"War is a Racket"
http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
For all the money spent, the USA is one of the most insecure countries on the planet (with long energy supply lines, long food supply lines, long goods supply lines, an unhardened and unecrypted civilian communications infrastructure, no comprehensive national health care system scaled for disasters, and in many other ways). This can't be fixed by spending more money the same way on more soldiers and more weapons -- the USA passed the law of diminishing returns on that decades ago. These fundamental insecurities can only be fixed by spending the money differently.
For example, for one half of one year's military spending, the USA could go all solar with improved energy efficiency and no longer have to defend oil supply lines:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan
http://www.earth-policy.org/index.php?/books/pb3/pb3_table_of_contents
(while also improving human health and environmental health and creating many jobs). As part of that, free luxury electric cars to everyone in the USA would greatly reduce our taxes for defense and care of the sick:
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/09eb7f4c973349f2?hl=en
Likewise, for a fraction of one year's defense budget, the USA could put in place local flexible manufacturing facilities that remove the need to defend shipping lines to China, as I suggest here:
"21,000 Flexible Public Fabrication Facilities a
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Movies like Saw and Hostel simply cannot be psychologically inert, the content is just too potent.
Give some credit to Passion of the Christ, the movie that brought torture porn into the mainstream.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
What nobody in the free world realizes is that this has nothing to do with violent videogames or protecting children. This is all about controlling all means of information and outside influences. It's just one of the many steps the Venezuelan government is using to control the way the Venezuelan people think. I know it sounds like something out of 1984; but as someone who was born in Cuba and then lived in Venezuela, I assure you, this is simply one more way of indoctrinating people from a young age.
as Chess is a simulation of war and spending to long playing chess at a high level does tend to do strange thing to people look at Bobby Fishcher as one example.
AS much as I agree with this overall sentiment, I have a significant issue with the lack of parental responsibility; if the parent doesn't want little Johnny playing this stuff; don't buy it! Parenting isn't about being your kids best friend; it's about being a parent; and if you're doing your job, the little buggers are going to be angry and pissed, and say stuff like "but all the other kids have them". I have a very good word, which my kids (6) did learn and more importantly come to understand the finer subtlety of the word "BULLSHIT". A second good word is simply "No".
The problem I have with nearly all of the first person shooter games, is that you're nearly invulnerable. And in the real world you're killing real people. One of my kids had been over at a friends house (middle school age) and when they wandered back to mine they had been playing one of the current first person shooter WWII games. And it was great fun. So, I called the kid's house, got permission, and had them watch a few episodes of "Band of Brothers", and made them listen to the commentary of the guys who were there.
I guess the question to the cognitive neuroscientist is; why the fuck are so many parents; not parenting? What type of dementia do we suffer as a society that we for whatever reason believe that giving a kid whatever he asks for is the right thing to do?
Do you live in Venezuela, ifyou do, get out of my country.
Quite right. And I never claimed it was based on medical or scientific research. What I did claim was that youth violence is at its lowest levels in a long time. I then linked to an article which showed graphs compiled by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, a division of the United States Department of Justice. Note that the article author did not compile the data, they did not create the graphs, they did not work the statistics. They simply took the data and graphs straight from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Admittedly they altered one of the graphs, but in that case all they did was add a time-line of the release of some consoles and games.
While it's fine to be suspect of any research or study funded, promoted, or done by a group who has an obvious interest in the results being one way or another, dismissing it outright is called a logical fallacy. If you have something against the statistics in the article, please discuss.
Stop Global Warming!
Just say no to irreversible processes!
it's a violence simulator, for adults only
no more Tom & Jerry, no more Three Little Pigs, no Red Riding Hood.
but also good - no Jesus or God or anything Biblical,
no dinosaur models, wolf motifs, Kellogs Frosties, eating meat, wrestling action figures, batman
no mario, no superman on the atari 2600, no duck hunt, no burnout, no NHL
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I know a company that does business in Venezuela (note: I don't work for them :) They keep all of their expensive IT equipment in the US, and only use a satellite link to provide their services there. They do this because they are too afraid to install much physical plant in Venezuela, lest it be appropriated by the government. The recent power issues have also shown this strategy to be a good one.
Then you as a parent have done your job. Because thats exactly what this is, a PARENTING issue. The government should butt the fuck out.
Except that the problem is not solved if (and I say if, since it is controversial) violent games contribute to broader social violence and dysfunction.
We do know for sure that spending too much time indoors leads to vitamin D deficiency from lack of sunlight that leads to grumpy people with lots of health problems. Of course, reading anything too much indoors (even sacred texts) can do that too. So, if you are an indoor gamer or a reader of any sort, please at least get vitamin D from supplements of some sort:
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/treatment.shtml
There is also the bigger issue that advertising creates demand for these violent products. And like cigarettes, violent games and toys are often targeted to very young children in various ways (Joe Camel, etc.). As talked about here:
"The War Play Dilemma: What Every Parent And Teacher Needs to Know"
http://www.amazon.com/War-Play-Dilemma-Childhood-Education/dp/080774638X
their is an unhealthy alliance between toy makers, fast food makers, video game makers, media makers, and licensed product makers to bombard young boys 24X7 with violence-related images to sell product. So, for example, a ten year old boy gets a Star Wars "Happy" meal at McDonalds, watches Star Wars cartoons at home, sleeps under Star Wars blankets, buys Star Wars lightsabers, plays Star Wars video games, sees Star Wars related commercials at random times even when watching other things on TV, has Star Wars pictures on their school notebook covers, and so on. This is 24X7 infiltration of the kid's mind with the implicit suggestion that violence and wars are the best way to solve conflicts, and that there are clearly defined good guys (us) and clearly defined bad guys (by whatever means, color, shape, speech, dress, etc.), and that military robots are a good idea (rather than using technology to bring abundance to all). Rather than define the Emperor as a mentally ill and financially obese person needing help, he is just "evil" and only killing him is the solution. And kids get locked in a cycle of endless tightly scripted play at home, at school, outdoors -- anywhere, where there is only one solution to a conflict -- killing. There are a lot of other reasons kids are hurting, but this continual onslaught by for-profit companies 24X7 just adds to it.
For girls, it is even worse: :-(
http://www.amazon.com/So-Sexy-Soon-Sexualized-Childhood/dp/0345505077
Though some of that is also from environmental toxins (estrogen mimics) and poor nutrition heavy on fats connected especially to fast foods; see:
http://www.amazon.com/Supernormal-Stimuli-Overran-Evolutionary-Purpose/dp/039306848X
So, while it is easy to blame the parents for not regulating everything a child engages in, clearly the job of parenting has become much harder over the last few decades in this regard (even since the "family values" Reagan Administration gave this alliance their blessing), and parents are not getting much help in general. It takes a village to raise a child.
Everyone acts so concerned about physical predation by strangers on a child (which very rarely happens even if it is a tragedy when it does). But people in the USA just accept mental predation on young children as a given in our society through the logic of profit-making and an unregulated "free market". But the fact is, any marketplace is a social construction:
"The Mythology of Wealth"
http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/?q=node/402
Venezuela has decided to change the nature of that social construction. I don't agree w
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Everyone is talking about something else, you keep whining about not ousting him and Iran. It is rather tedious.