Civilization V To Use Steamworks

sopssa writes "2K Games today announced that Civilization V will be using Steamworks for online matchmaking, automated updates, downloadable content and DRM for the game. Steam's Civ V store page is also available now, revealing some new information about the game. There will be an 'In-Game Community Hub' for online matchmaking, communication, and for sharing scenarios between players. While including Steamworks might put some people off, it might also indicate better online gameplay than in the previous Civilization games, where it was almost impossible to have a good game without playing with just friends."

Comments

Civ was my offline game

[T.E.D.]

The thing that really sucks about this is that Civiliation has always been my go to game when my internet connection is down.

Next they will take away HOMM, and I'll be stuck talking to my family or something when internet goes down. (shudder)

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Krneki]

I always bought CIV, but if this DRM is too restrictive I'll just get it for free.
Why would I pay to have more problems?

I'll wait and see.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[smallfries]

That's exactly what I was thinking. I've got a row of boxes sitting on a shelf with Civ1 - 4/Warlords. If they put something on there that is a problem it will be the first cracked version that I've downloaded for free.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[bmecoli]

I've use Steam, and not once have I ever had an issue with it. their download/DRM model works rather well and isn't nearly as bad as say, Ubisoft's. I mean, their whole business model is what has made the platform so successful in the first place, so I wouldn't worry about CIV V being on Steam.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[MrZilla]

I have already preordered Civ V, but this makes me a bit worried.

I have never played a game that uses Steam, so I don't know if it's bad or not. I'll definitively keep an eye on what people are saying.

But if it turns out to be too bad (for me), I'll just cancel my preorder and not get the game at all. There are plenty of other games out there (including Civ 4)

Re:Civ was my offline game

[lemmywrap]

When a user installs your game, the DRMS server collects information from the customer's computer that uniquely identifies it. The collected information is used in combination with the metadata regarding your executable file to generate a custom binary, that checks that it is running on the user's computer. If the user changes the configuration of their computer such that the CEG checks would fail to identify the computer, the CEG system will automatically generate a new executable file for the user, and update their game installation. These checks occur whenever your game is run, regardless of whether the computer is connected to the Internet or not. In addition to examining the user's computer, the CEG system will detect tampering with the executable file, and will conceal its workings from reverse engineering.

Should still be able to play it while offline, it would only require an internet connection when installing or after changing your hardware.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Thanshin]

my go to game when my internet connection is down.

Mine is Dwarf Fortress. No mouse means I can even play it on the car (better while someone else drives) or while waiting on the airport.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[imakemusic]

Steam has an offline mode. You should only have to go online once to activate it.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[bornyesterday]

luckily steam has this nice "offline mode" option. I was playing civ 4, l4d2 and bad company 2 this past weekend when waiting for cable in my new apartment

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Thanshin]

I always bought CIV, but if this DRM is too restrictive [...]

It's just steam.

Why would I pay to have more problems?

I don't mind the "Connect once to install the game and play offline for just about ever" system because it comes with the added benefit of "Download the game anywhere you have a connection" that I've used many times.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[omglolbah]

You can play Steam games in "offline mode". I do so frequently. It works great :)

While I loathe DRM, the Steam DRM is so non-intrusive compared to the competetors that I can live with it just fine. Since I started using Steam a few years ago I have spent more money on games than ever before...

Of all the DRM schemes to use, this is the one I would pick if I had to make a choice as a consumer.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

I've purchased every single Civ game and expansion, and easily have spent thousands of hours playing the series. Screw Steamworks, and screw Firaxis or Take Two or whoever decided this was a good idea.

Civ is primarily a single-player game, this is absolute insanity for it to require Steamworks. I guess this will be the first game in the series that I won't be playing.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[omglolbah]

Yup, and the beauty of it is that it actually WORKS :D

Re:Civ was my offline game

[hedwards]

It works until you tire of the game and want to sell it or somebody happens to break into your account and they disable it without compensation. Steam's just as bad as the rest of them, at least with other schemes you're just out one game if things go wrong, with steam you could very well be out all your games.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

I have never played a game that uses Steam, so I don't know if it's bad or not. I'll definitively keep an eye on what people are saying.

It's quite annoying. You always have to start the Steam-client to play. For some reason you cannot copy&paste passwords so you have to always type it. There's supposed to be an offline mode but that disables itself all the time and you have to log in to play.

It's an unnecessary pain in the ass, in my opinion. It's one of the more cumbersome DRM systems because it comes with all those useless bells and whistles.

That said, at least it always worked when I wanted to play. Still, I don't really like it because - as with all online-DRM systems - once they turn off their servers, you'll lose every game you bought from them.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Should still be able to play it while offline, it would only require an internet connection when installing or after changing your hardware.

I change my hardware as often as I change my underwear and it isn't anybody else's business but mine when I do either.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Eraesr]

And that's exactly the problem with piracy these days. People think that restrictive DRM warrants an illegal download while the only legal solution to your problem would be to simply not play Civ V at all if you don't like the DRM.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Eraesr]

It's quite annoying. You always have to start the Steam-client to play. For some reason you cannot copy&paste passwords so you have to always type it.

This is not true. You can create direct links to your games so that you don't have to start the steam client to play. It also has the option to remember your login, which has never failed me either. You have to enter your password only once and then it simply keeps you logged in, even if you shut down your PC.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Mr. Freeman]

And that's exactly the problem with game and media execs these days, they completely fail to realize that there is absolutely no way to stop piracy and that adding more DRM just encourages more illegal activity. Ignoring reality doesn't make it go away.

Of course, you're assuming that the DRM is legal in the first place, which it isn't. It removes your ability to make back-up copies as allowed by law.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[redscare2k4]

The pirated version will allow to play without internet connection ;)

IIRC, you can also put steam in "offline mode" and then play without internet connection. But to do that you must be logged in the first place, so it's only a valid method when you're planning ahead of time to do that. If your ISP/router/whatever goes down you're fubared.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Saint Gerbil]

Steam DRM isnt that bad it even got an offline mode when your net connection is down.
Steam have always let you have your software on multiple PC's but only allowed to be logged in at one place.

the steamworks intergration with the save games is going to be interesting tho.

Of all the DRM I've seen Steam is the one least obtrusive I've seen.
It also lets you download a game which you bought on DVD through your net connection if you have registered it with them ala "Supreme Commander 2"

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagining what your underwears could look like makes me sick.
Change everyday ffs !

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Mr. Freeman]

It doesn't work about half of the time. There's various reasons it doesn't work. You've changed hardware, you've been offline too long, it thinks there's updates for the game and you MUST install them even to play in single player more.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

I could not play Civ V.
I could also starve myself during a religious fasting period, or flog myself for watching porn. But why would I?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Thanshin]

It's quite annoying. You always have to start the Steam-client to play.

It autostarts as you click your game icon.

For some reason you cannot copy&paste passwords so you have to always type it.

I don't even know my steam pass. I entered it once, maybe years ago.

There's supposed to be an offline mode but that disables itself all the time and you have to log in to play.

Disables itself?!? I download the game, set it as offline and that's all.

It's one of the more cumbersome DRM systems because it comes with all those useless bells and whistles.

I think you have a problem with your steam installation, or your computer. I've never encountered nor heard about the problems you speak about, and some sound pretty strange; it's as if you lost the configuration every time, or something. I'd check the properties of your steam folders.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to enter your password only once and then it simply keeps you logged in, even if you shut down your PC.

At some point my Steam password was a bunch of swear words due to the lack of copy & paste because I had to type it so often.

Remembering the password and offline mode didn't work for me and I really couldn't be bothered to troubleshoot yet another stupid DRM system.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Vahokif]

You can switch Steam to offline mode and it'll still work.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[ledow]

Offline mode. You have to be online on Steam to download the damn thing in the first place, but once it's installed you just set it to offline mode and play away. It won't stay like that forever, but are you seriously telling me that you won't be online with Steam running in the background (even if just for a minute) for more than about 30/60/90 days?

I don't buy games that have stupid DRM because I do play offline, but I've spend hundreds of pounds on Steam lately because their system is the only one that works how it should. And I've had Steam since long before WON went offline, so nearly day one.

Avoid the stuff that has *other* DRM on top of Steam (e.g. GTA4) because that's just stupid anyway, layering DRM schemes, but 99% of what's on Steam is fine and it's the best system that makes the most sensible compromises for user happiness.

If you don't already know this, it means you've never used Steam yourself. It's damn addictive once you realise that you can search for, buy, download, install and play a game in minutes and then take that game everywhere you go, online or off, onto multiple computers without having to do anything more complicated than click "Install" on the right icon. Or backup those games to your external drive when you realise you've filled up your entire disk with games and need some quick space back. It takes literally minutes to reinstall 9Gb of game from a Steam Backup if you suddenly get the urge to play it again, or you can redownload it if you lose your backup.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[El_Muerte_TDS]

That direct link will still first start Steam. And steam in offline mode doesn't work as well as a lot of people claim. When I was playing the game Torchlight my ISP sucked big time and had a very unstable internet, or no internet connection at all. Due to the fact that the PC was connected to an internal network I had to wait for the Steam connection to timeout before it allowed me to go into offline mode, so I had to wait 5 minutes before the game would start. If I simply disabled all network connections on that machine it would prompt for offline mode within a minute. Another problem is that steam constantly tries to go out of offline mode. One time it managed to get through to the steam servers and saw there was an update for Torchlight. The result, I could no longer play Torchlight in offline mode because there was an update I was required to install. Of course with my ISP still sucking big time I could not download the files.

During this who crappy ISP period I regularly used tethering through my phone (using tetherbot) to browse the web, read email, etc. But what I couldn't do was tell Steam to connect to the proxy so it could access the internet so that I could finally unlock the game again.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Thanshin]

or somebody happens to break into your account and they disable it

Happens to break into your account? How does that happen?

I'd like to know your opinion on online banking.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Thanshin]

I can imagine hardware changes to be a problem but how does it know there are updates without you being online?

I know about the updating the games I have set up as offline, but it notices only when I'm actually online, so I can download the updates. I fail to see the problem.

Either you're offline (or just dont let steam connect), and you get no update notifications, or you're online and connected, in which case you must download the updates, which I would, anyway.

I can see a problem if, for some reason, you didn't want to keep the game updated.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Thanshin]

Never happened to me.

In that case, I'd just block steam in the firewall.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[HungryHobo]

It's vastly more satisfying to thumb your nose at the pointlessness of the DRM by downloading the superior cracked version even if philosophically it's better to just not buy or play the game.

They'll blame the lost sale on piracy and lobby government for more draconian laws either way.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Steamworks works when the interwebs is down. Or at least it does for me.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Thanshin]

Totally offtopic moderation curiosity, feel free to ignore.

Several similar posts in this thread, saying essentially "I use steam offline and had no problem with it" have been simultaneously modded exactly once as flamebait. I suspect it's the finest example I've yet seen of a single guy using the "-1 disagree" mod with his entire pool of modpoints. :)

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Who modded all the "It's just Steam" posts in this discussion flamebait? From all the DRM systems out there, Steam is the least intrusive one and it actually gives you more value to the game (community, in-game browser, archievements). I take Steam over Ubisoft's intrusive always-online DRM (with nothing to gain) or SecuROM/StarForce that install hidden kernel drivers in your system any day.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[mcvos]

And that's exactly the problem with piracy these days. People think that restrictive DRM warrants an illegal download while the only legal solution to your problem would be to simply not play Civ V at all if you don't like the DRM.

Depends on where you live. Buying and installing a patch that removes the DRM is also legal in many places. And I think that where I live, not buying but downloading a complete cracked version is also legal, as long as I don't use torrent to do it (because then I'd be uploading at the same time).

Re:Civ was my offline game

[L4t3r4lu5]

No extra DRM. It's locked to a Steam account, but you can log in on any computer which has Steam installed and play any game on your account. If it's not installed, you can download it. PITA, but better than the alternative method of having all of your games on every computer: Carrying every installation disk you own.

I buy all of my games on Steam now. I might get a couple from Good Old Games, if I can find some I like.

Off topic: Does anybody know if there's an online store offering System Shock 2 for download? I've never played it, and think I should.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Terrasque]

"It takes literally minutes to reinstall 9Gb of game from a Steam Backup if you suddenly get the urge to play it again, or you can redownload it if you lose your backup."

Too bad those minutes are around 300-400.. At least, that's my experience (games with many small files kill Steam restore - even on SSD)

Re:Civ was my offline game

[HungryHobo]

In most countries if your bank account is compromised there's regulations to protect you.
If on the other hand you have a large number of games the steam admins can simply confiscate your property and you have no recourse.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[HungryHobo]

The most annoying thing is that if you raise the issue of these awful design problems steam fanboys leap in with shit like
"nobody with dialup/tethering plays games"(bonus if they link to a steam poll showing that yes in fact hardly anyone with dialup uses steam),
"THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH STEAM",
"HURR HURR HURR, GET A BETTER ISP"

Etc etc

the fanboys are far far more iritating than the devs.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you seriously trying to imply that reinstalling a steam game from backup could take 5-7 hours? Get real and stop trolling

Re:Civ was my offline game

[TheLink]

Not a problem to me. Downloading is legal in some countries. AFAIK in my country (Malaysia) distribution is illegal (e.g. uploading), but downloading isn't, so as long as you don't use P2P (or are a leecher) you're legal ;). I think they plan to change the law soon.

Copying is not the same as stealing.

Laws dealing with stealing have been around for thousands of years and far more proven in their long term usefulness to society than copyright laws.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[HungryHobo]

By any chance do you connect through a single always-on high bandwidth network connection?

Never move between networks?

Steam has all those problems.
Laptop users and people who sometimes lose their net connection hit the problems far far more.

If you have any kind of network connection(say a lan or low bandwidth connection) then steam will decide you don't really want to be in offline mode, kick you out of offline mode and then lock itself up because it can't connect to the steam servers.
or even better- it'll decide that the game you're trying to play offline definitly requires that 100mb patch and won't let you play until it's downloaded it through your low-bandwidth edge dongle.

Steam still has some serious design issues.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Richard_at_work]

Nowhere in 'the law' does it say that content providers must allow you unhindered ability to make a backup copy, it merely states that you are allowed to make a backup copy within the limitations of copyright law - its not illegal to hinder that at all.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Per Abrahamsen]

Suggestion: Install some of the demos or free games available (I can recommend Peggle Extreme casual or the Sam&Max point and click adventure), and test out if the steam offline mode works for you. It has improved a lot recently, but some still reports problems, therefore the suggestion to try it for yourself.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Narishma]

You can make backups of Steam games, not to mention that you can re-download them as many times as you want, even on different computers. You can also play them offline, so I don't see what your problem is.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

From all the DRM systems out there, Steam is the least intrusive one and it actually gives you more value to the game (community, in-game browser, archievements).

That's pure fanboy nonsense.

There are many less intrusive DRM systems out there. I've had many games with online activiation DRM systems that ever only showed me a single "activating game once" window that was gone after 5 seconds, never to be seen again.

You complain about DRM systems that install drivers, yet happily install Steam system-wide.

Steam is one of the most intrusive systems out there (forced use of a client, adds a second DRM layer on top of whatever the publisher already has, forced management of game installations, integration into OS, offline mode that wants to go online whenever it feels like it, total dependance on Valve to be able to play games, etc.).

All that community stuff just adds to the burden of the DRM.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[smallfries]

You could not be more wrong and I would be impressed if you could point to a single person with that belief. Much more common is a generation of people who don't believe in following an arbitary set of rules to preserve artificial scarcity. There really is nothing morally wrong with copying, it is not stealing and our laws are simply wrong.

I choose to buy games simply because we don't have another renumeration method for game devs. If they are stupid enough to stick annoying DRM on there then I'll take the non-damaged version.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[ledow]

I call bullshit of the highest order.

I have recently deinstalled and reinstalled from backup about 7-8 games, totalling Gigabytes of data with 1000's of files and it never took more than a handful of minutes (and most of that was churning to load the setup program into memory before it actually did anything). This is not a top-of-the-range laptop by any means, bog-standard cheap 320Gb hard drive. Its filesystems were made two years ago and haven't been defragged etc. *EVER* and it was going from one partition to another on the same drive.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[CordableTuna]

Steam is slightly better than the absolute worst of the DRM systems yes, but it still can take all your games away if you so much as look at it funny. Even SecuROM or StarForce can't do that. If you travel with a laptop, I suggest you buy your games somewhere else. Steam has a tendency to lock accounts that log in from multiple IP addresses. 'Cause, you know, that's a crime.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[MogNuts]

With everything that is going on these past few years with DRM, I do not disagree with you whatsoever. More power to you.

This is directed to all Slashdotters, not you. I've said it before, I think we should stop think of PC games as owning them, and treating them as rentals. That's how the companies are treating us, so we should respond in kind. And I don't mean to just roll over and accept it. I mean the following:

Only buy games, new or used, at a rental price-point. When there is a special on Steam like when Bioshock was out for $5, then you buy it. Or wait until it gets to $15-20 new. Most games nowadays hit the mark around 6 mo. - 1 yr. It has an added benefit of having all the bugs ironed out and the game is fully playable.

This way when they screw you (no, the servers will *not* be still on for games like RE5, AC2 in 5-7 years and you can't play then), you are out the appropriate amount. And they only receive what the game is truly worth.

As a side note, something helpful: I find when they hype a game I want it right now. But it's only because it's on your mind. If you focus on something else, you don't even remember you want it. So to still get the game, what I do is when I see a game I want right now, I just put it on a list. I have a list of like 20 games right now. Then you pick it up when its super cheap. I have about 30 games on steam right now that I haven't paid more than $10 now (and good ones, like Bioshock, Dead Space, etc.).

Re:Civ was my offline game

[PopeRatzo]

I have never played a game that uses Steam

It's not bad. After a while, you'll find that Steam has some distinct benefits.

Like when I buy a new computer, it'll download and install any of the games I want to play. No disks. I have played Steam on machines that lacked an optical drive entirely.

Get past the extra hassle of having to wait until the Steam client logs in (unless you set it to offline mode) before your game starts, but that only adds a couple of seconds to the game start. On my game machine, I just leave the client running in the systray.

I give Valve credit for making an un-horrible gaming system for the PC. They did not completely screw up. Is it perfect? Absolutely not.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Thanshin]

When I use offline is to take the games on the laptop on work trips. I do it in case the hotel's connection is down, or something. So it seems to be the opposite situation of what you describe.

Anyway, the having to reset the offline state, having to reenter the password, etc, really seems more like one of those new Windows system folder protection idiocies.

I don't really manage steam so much, but I think the connection related problems you describe may be corrected by just blocking steam on your firewall whenever you aren't on a reliable connection.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[TheThiefMaster]

You can disable the auto-update of games to prevent this.

Though I'll admit that it's annoying as hell that I can't play the older version of a game while the new version downloads...

Re:Civ was my offline game

[HungryHobo]

thing is that steam is utterly retarded when it comes to network connections.
If there's *any* kind of network, no matter if it's just a point to point between 2 laptops, a local lan with no net connection or anything which looks like a network connection then steam will decide that you don't really want to be in offline mode, obviously you made a mistake when clicking "offline mode" and so it kicks you out of offline mode and freaks out because it can't connect to the steam servers and locks itself up.

Even worse is when it does this while I'm using my edge dongle (very low bandwidth) and it decides that it absolutely positively has to download the 100mb patch for that single player game I was trying to play before it will even think about letting my play it.

If you've never experienced problems with steam then you're on a high bandwidth, high reliability, always-on, unrestricted net connection.
In that situation steam is the best thing since sliced bread.

Otherwise steam has very very real problems and hordes of dedicated fanboys who deny those problems even exist.

"Either you're offline (or just dont let steam connect), and you get no update notifications, or you're online and connected, in which case you must download the updates, which I would, anyway."

This tells me how little thought you've put into this.
I'm on 3 different networks regularly.

1: home, DSL, steam is pretty good on this except when it decides I really really need that massive patch for the game I want to play in single player.
2: university wireless, steam doesn't like this at all since it can't get at the steam servers but there is an active net connection so it decides I don't really want to be in offline mode then locks up because it can't get at the steam servers.
3: wireless dongle when I'm traveling, if I make the mistake of trying to play steam without first pulling out the dongle it will decide I need all the latest patches.... over an edge connection wherever I may be.
this is where steam really goes to shit.

uncommon:
4: I'm on any kind of LAN without a net connection or if my ISP goes down.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Aceticon]

From all the DRM systems out there, Steam is the least intrusive one and it actually gives you more value to the game (community, in-game browser, archievements). I take Steam over Ubisoft's intrusive always-online DRM (with nothing to gain) or SecuROM/StarForce that install hidden kernel drivers in your system any day.

Reminds me of some of the arguments used by some people to justify the some of the most egregious of the previous US adminstration's measures.

Basically it boiled down to "It's not at all bad compared to what they do in North Korea".

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

You're too stupid to remember a password, but this is Steam's fault?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[master5o1]

Why is this flamebait?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[HungryHobo]

For those wondering about the stunningly arrogant and annoying fanboys I was refering to whos personality problems far surpass any problems with the platform please see exibit A above.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Coopa]

Although i haven't experienced it in a long time myself, 'offline mode' on Steam was notoriously picky about letting you play offline.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Pojut]

That's exactly what I was thinking. I've got a row of boxes sitting on a shelf with Civ1 - 4/Warlords. If they put something on there that is a problem it will be the first cracked version that I've downloaded for free.

If it ends up being broken because of DRM, why not buy the game so the developers get their cut and then download the cracked version? You get an easy-to-use version, the developers get their cut, and everyone is happy.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[HungryHobo]

I don't really see how it could be a windows folder problem.

"blocking steam on your firewall "

Which is great if I think of this before it locks up because it can't find the steam servers, requiring me to find an open net connection before I can go back to using offline mode.

It's an odd and (one would think) easily fixed minor design fault which leads to a surprising amount of frustration.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[metacell]

People think that restrictive DRM warrants an illegal download while the only legal solution to your problem would be to simply not play Civ V at all if you don't like the DRM.

If I'm not going to buy the game in either case, playing a pirated copy doesn't cause the producer any loss of profit.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

And that's exactly the problem with pirates these days, they completely fail to realize that there is absolutely no way to stop DRM (aside from voting with your wallet) and that pirating more just encourages more DRM. Ignoring reality doesn't make it go away.

Hey look, the reverse is also true!

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Mongoose Disciple]

I choose to buy games simply because we don't have another renumeration method for game devs.

So, uh... other than "If I want to play the game they made, I should give them money", what's your alternate renumeration method?

If possible, name one that still allows for games on the scale that take a team of professional developers working full time for a year or more to create.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Mongoose Disciple]

If I'm not going to buy the game in either case, playing a pirated copy doesn't cause the producer any loss of profit.

In a sense that's true.

However, are you familiar with the Tragedy of the Commons?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[famanz]

I have never played a game that uses Steam

It's not bad. After a while, you'll find that Steam has some distinct benefits.

Like when I buy a new computer, it'll download and install any of the games I want to play.

Agreed. I just built a new computer and reinstalling my steam games was a breeze.

My biggest complaint with steam, which is really with some of the publishers who use it rather than Steam itself, is that some games have extra DRM in addition to Steam such as Games For Windows Live (GFWL). I've only bought one game through Steam that uses GFWL, Red Faction: Guerrilla. I don't recall the Steam purchase page mentioning that I'd need to create a separate account and be signed into it as well in order to play the game but I can't say for sure it wasn't there. What I can say for sure is that it took hours of googling and messing with settings to even get the game to play and when it did run it was buggy and would occasionally crash or randomly pop up the GFWL login screen. After that experience I'll never again buy a game that uses GFWL.

Unfortunately Bioshock 2 is one such game (Steam + Securom + GFWL) and while I had been looking forward to playing it I'm voting with my wallet and staying away from it (while also neither pirating it nor buying a PS3 version).

Overall my experiences with Steam have been positive but like others there's always the concern in the back of my mind that Valve could go under and all my games rendered inaccessible.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[hechacker1]

Steam is slightly better than the absolute worst of the DRM systems yes, but it still can take all your games away if you so much as look at it funny. Even SecuROM or StarForce can't do that. If you travel with a laptop, I suggest you buy your games somewhere else. Steam has a tendency to lock accounts that log in from multiple IP addresses. 'Cause, you know, that's a crime.

I call bullshit on that. I regularly use Steam from school, my apartment, and my parents house and on many different machines. My brother also logs into my account to access my game libarary and vice versa.

Really the only ban is for cheating on VAC secured servers and games. Even if you get banned for cheating, it's still possible to play on non VAC secured games and servers.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[thesandtiger]

Write to Firaxis and let them know.

I recently bought the complete Civ IV specifically because it has no DRM what-so-ever, I like the game, and want to support further development. When I heard Civ V was going to have DRM like this, I sent a note to Firaxis saying that I certainly wasn't going to be buying the game if it's crippled by DRM.

Let them know that it's backfiring and will actually cost them sales.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[halivar]

Karma may a bitch, but meta-moderation is a poxy whore with a truncheon. He'll get his.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

I play most of my games in offline mode and they all work just as well as when I have the opportunity to play online. I am currently playing GTA: BoGT and have not had a problem with the steam DRM or the DRM that Rockstar has on the game as well (secureROM?) If you just start in offline I'm certain it will stay in offline mode.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[malakai]

I have to agree with parent. STEAM works pretty flawlessly for me. Online/Offline and on three different computers.

Lately, it works even better, because games can write settings to the cloud. So my latest config settings for some games auto-magically appear at my other home when I log in there. Same with the laptops.

I've actually had my remote home PC in 'offline' mode for steam to play Bioshock or something, and left it in Offline mode ( still playable) while my main PC in the city was online and I could in theory play in both locations at the same time ( one offline, on online ). I took this to the next level by logging my steam account into a family members PC, and download some of my games to that PC, then putting it in offline mode.

I'm pretty happy with steam, for the services the cloud services and matchmaking it provides it balances the restrictiveness of DRM just right.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Steam has a tendency to lock accounts that log in from multiple IP addresses. 'Cause, you know, that's a crime.

Only if you log in from multiple addresses at the same time. It's a security precaution, in case your account got compromised.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[DaFallus]

Steam has a tendency to lock accounts that log in from multiple IP addresses. 'Cause, you know, that's a crime.

I have never heard anything about this. Can you provide a link or citation other than annecdotes? I have never had an issue with Steam. In fact, I was house sitting for my parents a few weeks ago and when I got bored I installed Steam and purchased Deus Ex for around $10. Since then I've had Steam install the game on all my other computers at home. The only thing missing is a way to synchronize saved games through your Steam account.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair about the torch light thing:
If you click on Torchlight->Properties there's a drop down box that says "Always keep this game up to date". Telling it to never look for updates would've solved your problem. Maybe you can complain because it defaults to always keeping your game patched, but you can change that in about 4-5 mouse clicks.

Also instead of waiting 5 minutes for steam to time out, did you ever think to open the main steam window and click File->Go Offline... It's a magical option that lets steam know that you want to play offline. I know unplugging the cable, and configuring a firewall is probably a lot faster for you, but next time maybe you should just consider using the main menu on the main steam window. Or if that's too hard it's still accessible from an option on your system tray (also in two clicks).

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Steam has never locked my account, and I play from multiple IP's on a regular basis. The only thing it ever does if I am logged on to more than one computer at the same time it logs off the other computer when I log into a new one. I have been using steam for years and the only game that ever gave me an issue was one in which the publisher included other drm on top of steamworks. Even when I deploy, I just put it in offline mode and am able to play for the entirety of my deployment, the last one being a year and a half, not a single issue. Steam is by far the best system out there.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[YojimboJango]

Steam is slightly better than the absolute worst of the DRM systems yes, but it still can take all your games away if you so much as look at it funny. Even SecuROM or StarForce can't do that. If you travel with a laptop, I suggest you buy your games somewhere else. Steam has a tendency to lock accounts that log in from multiple IP addresses. 'Cause, you know, that's a crime.

Visa is slightly better than the absolute worst of the credit card systems yes, but it still can take all your buying power away if you so much as look at it funny. Even MasterCard or AmericanExpress can't do that. If you travel with a credit card, I suggest you get your card somewhere else. Visa has a tendency to lock accounts that make payments from multiple geographical locations. 'Cause, you know, that's a crime.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

A "right" that you might have in the books, but that you are substantially prevented from exercising, can hardly be considered a "right" at all. If Congress passed legislation that legally enables you to make a backup copy, then any act made by the publisher that hinders your ability to make a working backup copy should be considered an infringement on your rights.

Of course, with the lobby that goes on, its not that straightforward.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

It autostarts as you click your game icon.

HURRAY! I can load extra bloat automagicly! it's like getting f'ed in the a with febreze!

I don't even know my steam pass. I entered it once, maybe years ago.

The irony of how fickle your games now are is completely lost on you, isn't it?

Disables itself?!? I download the game, set it as offline and that's all.

Yes DISABLES ITSELF. Have you really tried steam, or are you just a valve pr guy?

I think you have a problem with your steam installation, or your computer.

I think you have more money to blow on a powerful computer (which you will fill with DRM bloatware) than you have experience with them.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Only as long as they let you. They can revoke your access at any time for no reason. You agree to this in the Steam contract. That's the problem.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

[citation needed]

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Shrike82]

Slashdot, where anecdotes and hearsay are modded insightful...

Re:Civ was my offline game

[geekoid]

"It's just steam."

So it only removes resale rights, allows them to take it should thy choose to, forces you to stay current to play, monitors your play, makes it so only one game at a time can be played.

It drive me up a wall that while I play DrakenSang, my son can't play a different game I paid for. I great leap for me would be making it a game server.

It's not 'just steam'. it's a tool to remove your rights.

Due to the risk, I only bet games on steam that are at least half off. That's the risk/cost ration for me. Otherwise I buy a disk.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[williamhb]

The one that is a bit iffy however is that it does hinder your Right of First Sale. Purchase a real game and you can sell it second hand. Purchase a Steam game, and it's much harder (including a fee to Valve). You also have to realise that this really is an explicit intention of Steam. The record execs might care about piracy. The game companies care about second hand sales. Whatever number of BitTorrenting pirates there might be out there, there's an EBGames or a GameStop with a wall-ful of second hand copies in every shopping centre.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[geekoid]

Did you read your post?

ramming a stick in my foot is so bad because a piece of glass would have been worse.

Seriously that's your logic.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

That's obviously bullshit FUD as *most* people log into steam from multiple ip addresses. You know, most people *don't* have static IP's.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Shrike82]

I'm a fairly vocal supporter of Steam but I have to wholeheartedly agree with this point. Offline mode works well if you're truely offline, but is an absolute piece of crap when Steam decides that it [i]should[/i] be able to go online. If I tell Steam to be Offline, I expect it to ignore anything that even vaguely looks like a network connection until further notice. I don't care if the Steam central servers are sending pleading messages to my machine begging to be allowed to update. I've said no, and I mean no.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[kevinNCSU]

I think your correct that it isn't a right at all, it's simply something that's legal to do. There's a big difference between something being a 'right' and something being legal for you to do. For example, it may be legal to drive at 35mph on a community road, but that community might put in some speed bumps that makes maintaining that speed difficult. You could even say nearly forcing you to slow down. Maintaining that speed is perfectly legal, but it isn't a right that cannot be impeded.

I'm not a lawyer, but I get the feeling the law would have to specifically say something to the effect of "your ability to make backup copies is a right that cannot be impeded in any way" for there to be anything legally wrong with DRM.

And honestly, when you can download the game as many times as you want on as many computers as you want with your steam account, is "backup copies" really an issue here and I'm missing some angle or is that just a convenient excuse for complaining about it being harder to pirate?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you flog yourself while watching porn?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

I constantly log on/off of the company VPN, meaning that 1 moment steam sees me in CN and another moment Im in the US buying a game, than back to CN playing the game. For some games if they come out in the US before they come out here in CN, I will log onto VPN to play the game, and as soon as I log off steam just says "pre-loaded" :).

I have not ONCE been locked and I change continents multiple times a day with my computer.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

I've bought Civ also in the past. But moving 4+ houses and apartments, and considering it was always sitting right next to the computer (often out of a case) because of quick swap in/out, the discs are pretty much now trashed. Therefore, here comes my "pirated" download to support the physical media that is now useless... Is this bad?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[El_Muerte_TDS]

(Not sure if you're dense or just one of those fanboys HungryHobo talked about a few replies earlier. But I'll bite.)

Ok, so I have to disable all updating of games and go into offline mode before my ISP is starting to get network issues. And during that time I should never ever turn off my computer, or at least not close Steam. Because when Steam starts up it demands to go into online mode.

Also, after a few days in offline mode Steam will try to get back to online mode.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[kevinNCSU]

Backup copies also work until someone happens to break into your house and steals them, your computer and fluffy the cat. And you thought putting your daily backups on a microSD card in her morning meals was SOOOoooo smart.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[geekoid]

Because sometime updates take stuff away, or change the game in a manner that isn't fun.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[drinkypoo]

When I first got steam, I was on dialup. When you install Steam, you have to update it. These during-install updates are downloaded with no resume facility. I had to actually take my computer to someplace with broadband in order to even install Steam. Once you have it installed, the updates (or purchased games) are downloaded with resume, but that's only after the initial update.

Further, Steam backups can't be played without installing and updating Steam as well, assuming it's not already installed. And keep in mind that while you get a steam installer on the game disc if you buy a Steam title, unless Steam hasn't been updated since the release (unlikely) you WILL have to download the update, so the on-disc installer is basically useless. I have actually been in the situation where I wanted to restore and play a Steam backup and couldn't because my net connection was down.

I'm not worried about Civ V being on Steam, as long as they're not worried about not getting my money. Players expect to be able to milk these titles for years. I'm still playing Civ 2 (well, now I play Freeciv, because Civ 2 doesn't run in Wine, and loading a windows VM to play a game is annoying) and Alpha Centauri on a regular basis.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed, steam is one of the best DRM services out there, not that it says much but it provides for a good deal of functionality!

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not just backup copies though. I expect to be able to sell my used copy of Civ once I'm done with it. [Yeah, I know, that's blasphemy! But while I play Civ III over and over again, Civ IV can't seem to hold my interest.] I know the argument goes that its not technically "sold" to me so my right to re-sell isn't guaranteed, but dammit, as a customer who purchases boxed media, I have the *expectation* that I can sell my used stuff. My fundamental beef with Steam isn't so much about the backups but rather...

1. You lose your right to re-sell. First Sale rights go away since it truly is a tethered rental.
2. When Valve dies or arbitrarily decides to shut down its DRM servers, your games disappear. Yeah, they keep saying they'll release a patch to disable DRM when that happens, but unless they put it down in writing as a legal obligation then I don't consider it much of a promise at all. Just look at some of the dead music DRM schemes for a history lesson.
3. Forced updates. Just like how Sony is using the update regime to force unwanted features on the PS3. I'm not installing that upgrade right now, but I bet the first new game that I buy in 2010 won't let me play until I update-- even if the game doesn't interface with the Sony store or use any on-line feature. And with any update, Valve can change the rules at any time. As Vader said, "I am changing the terms of the deal. Pray that I do not change it further."

The XBox Live-like community and achievement features is nice for people who want them, but for me, the DRM is sufficient for me to pass on Civ V. I'm sorry, but I don't need my rights to be "managed" by someone who can change the rules at any time.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[drinkypoo]

This is a stupid analogy because you can tell your bank you're going to another city, state, country or whatever that you know to be suspicious, but there's no mechanism for doing this with Valve. If I tell my bank (in writing) that I'm going to another country, then they'll avoid locking my account for transactions in that country, even if there's also transactions going on in this one (for example, automatic payments.)

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Rockoon]

It works until you tire of the game and want to sell it

Nobody ever tires of Civilization.

Just.. one.. more.. turn..

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Since it is legal by law I buy the game under the assumption that I have the ability to backup it.
When they remove the possibility to do so they sell me a product that doesn't work the way any normal buyer would assume.

The car analogy would be if they sold cars that you couldn't use for drivning.
When you buy a car you assume that you can use it for driving but the law does not explicitly say that you can't sell a car that does not have this ability. (Nontheless it would be considered a scam.)

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Orga]

I had this problem with Empire Total War. My connection was down due to repeated incompetence by my ISP and I simply received an error anytime I tried to load up Empire Total War offline, no problem with the connection up. They seemed to have patched this problem now but it's very dismaying and I avoid whenever possible buying games through Steam.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[drinkypoo]

You can make backups of Steam games, not to mention that you can re-download them as many times as you want, even on different computers. You can also play them offline, so I don't see what your problem is.

You cannot install a steam backup without steam. You cannot use steam without updating it. You cannot update it without a network connection. Thus, you can not restore a steam backup "offline", you can only unpack it. The difference is playability. That's what the problem is.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Orga]

You can actually set Steam to run in offline mode.. thereby avoiding the connection timeout wait issue.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[drsquare]

I always bought CIV, but if this DRM is too restrictive I'll just get it for free.
Why would I pay to have more problems?

So, DRM is introduced in response to piracy, and you respond by more piracy. You just don't get it, do you?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with all of your points except for your excessively-hyperbolic "Disables itself?!?". Yeah, Steam's offline mode disables itself every now and then, forcing you to connect to authenticate again. It's happened to me many many times and this is well-known.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

So if the copy protection makes you upset, you feel justified to steal the game.
This may sound crazy, but why not keep your integrity intact and just not play the game?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Monkeedude1212]

Generally its if you are in the middle of an update for the game, I believe.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[JohnnyBGod]

That's funny... scenarios 1 and 2 apply to me, and yet I've never had that kind of problem with offline mode. Not being able to use it when Steam has to update sucks, though.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[JohnnyBGod]

Either you're recalling outdated info, or you don't recall correctly. Last year, I spent an entire two week vacation using offline mode without an Internet connection. It does require an Internet connection when it detected updates on the previous run, though, and that's pretty annoying.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

So is this comment an anecdote or hearsay?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[MogNuts]

You're free to do that. And I agree that Steam is the best answer out there.

I was just saying that for everyone else, they have to realize that games are now rentals, and should be purchased with that in mind. Would you pay $50-60 for a rental? I don't want people paying $60 for what is in essence a rental.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[HungryHobo]

the uni network depends on how the network is set up.
If steam can access the steam servers then you'll have no problem.
If non-http traffic is limited then steam may be unable to connect at which point it will detect an active network connection while being unable to call home and will throw a hissy fit.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Monkeedude1212]

Indeed, the EULA states:

C. Termination by Valve.

[...]
2. In the case of a one-time purchase of a product license (e.g., purchase of a single game) from Valve, Valve may choose to terminate or cancel your Subscription in its entirety or may terminate or cancel only a portion of the Subscription (e.g., access to the software via Steam) and Valve may, but is not obligated to, provide access (for a limited period of time) to the download of a stand-alone version of the software and content associated with such one-time purchase.

Emphasis Mine.
However, I haven't heard of a case of this ever happening. If it did, I'm sure there would be a shitstorm of people flooding the web and defaming Valve.

I think Valve is doing well to set Steamworks up as the nextgen distribution platform, I can't remember the last time I had to pop in a CD for a game and I'm enjoying it more. I suppose the 20 to 30 dollars you save by skipping a retailer means taking the risk of having it taken away from you, but I think as long as you are not a complete retard, Valve wouldn't do that.

I have heard cases where Valve would close an account on someone who was hacking (CS:S). However, they had more than 5 temporary bans each of which informing the user they would lose access to their steam account indefinately if they continued.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[MogNuts]

Forgot to add:

Personally, I've never even worried if there were people available to play, because I found over the years 95% of on-line gamers suck. I either play with real life friends or don't bother.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[CordableTuna]

Okay, an edit before I piss everyone off. Steam doesn't seem to care if you log in from IPs close to each other geographically, but it certainly does care if you pass territory lines. I was thinking about flying to another country rather than taking your laptop to work.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[JohnnyBGod]

It can't connect to the servers, and all the side effects I've experienced is having ti wait an ungodly amount of time for the login box (where you can choose to go offline) to appear. I've never actually been kicked out of offline mode. Though, as I said, not being able to even enter it has happened a few times.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[amplt1337]

If it ends up being broken because of DRM, why not buy the game so the developers get their cut and then download the cracked version?

Because it encourages the use of this DRM in the future. Why would I pay someone to release a deliberately crippled product? If Civ V does require a live-connection DRM system, I will be sending Firaxis a letter detailing exactly why I won't be buying the next release in a series I greatly love.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Hadlock]

Players expect to be able to milk these titles for years. I'm still playing Civ 2 (well, now I play Freeciv, because Civ 2 doesn't run in Wine, and loading a windows VM to play a game is annoying) and Alpha Centauri on a regular basis.

And I've been milking Team Fortress 2 for years. Play it on a regular basis, and shockingly, every time I go to load up steam, I check and I can still load TF2! Shocker! My 8 year old copy of Half-Life 2 and my 12 year old copy of Half-Life 1 still work fine, and I am still milking them. I've long lost the install CDs for those games, but thankfully I still have my Steam account. The fact that game updates download and are patched seamlessly is just another huge bonus. That sucks that you're stuck on dialup dude.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[PhoenixFlare]

They seemed to have patched this problem now but it's very dismaying and I avoid whenever possible buying games through Steam.

So they fixed the bug, but you're still going to hold a grudge anyway? Seems like a bit of an overreaction to me.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[drinkypoo]

Nowhere in 'the law' does it say that content providers must allow you unhindered ability to make a backup copy, it merely states that you are allowed to make a backup copy within the limitations of copyright law - its not illegal to hinder that at all.

Since the DMCA makes it illegal to bypass a copy control mechanism, DRM legally prevents you from exercising your rights. The laws are contradictory, and one of them needs to be struck down to remedy this situation.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[blind biker]

Can you resell your game?
Can you activate your game without Steam?
If one day Steam goes down, how long will you still be able to play your game?

Can you, with a straight face, and with honesty, claim that a Steam game is 100% under your control? Can you answer this last question without "but"s?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[shutdown -p now]

Although i haven't experienced it in a long time myself, 'offline mode' on Steam was notoriously picky about letting you play offline.

It was indeed (I got hurt by that, badly), but go and check the changelog of the Steam client. It has a bunch of interesting entries in it in the last few months of so, that go something like:

- Fixed offline mode not working
- Really fixed offline mode not working ...

etc. It's been some time since the last "really-really" fix, so I assume that they did nail it at last. I've used it about a month ago, and didn't run into any troubles I saw previously (like, no games launching in offline mode etc).

Re:Civ was my offline game

[shutdown -p now]

You've got valid points, except for the first one. Using Steam on dial-up is a rather futile and masochistic exercise. Why would you want to download multi-Gb games on that?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[shutdown -p now]

If there's *any* kind of network, no matter if it's just a point to point between 2 laptops, a local lan with no net connection or anything which looks like a network connection then steam will decide that you don't really want to be in offline mode, obviously you made a mistake when clicking "offline mode" and so it kicks you out of offline mode and freaks out because it can't connect to the steam servers and locks itself up.

They fixed that in the new Steam client.

At least the changelog mentions offline mode fixes, and it did work for me in a scenario you describe (network with several boxes and a router but no Net access + offline mode).

No, I'm not a Steam fanboi. I've ran into problems with offline mode in the past, largely the same as yours.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[bdeimen]

You can tell steam on any given game not to keep your games up to date so it won't start the auto update whenever you have an internet connection. I don't understand why no one else has brought this up. The auto update is an option, not a requirement unless it's an online multiplayer game, in which case you need it to play anyway.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[drinkypoo]

You've got valid points, except for the first one. Using Steam on dial-up is a rather futile and masochistic exercise. Why would you want to download multi-Gb games on that?

You can buy a game on a disc at the store and end up having to install Steam to play it. I did, in fact, with Half-Life 2. I knew it would happen, of course. I didn't know how painful it would be just to install and update Steam, which you must do before you can even install the game. IIRC it even mentions that the Steam installed is included on the packaging, but the first thing Steam does after you install it is download and install Steam. Nonetheless, I mention in the interest of fairness that if you purchase a game via Steam, the download will resume until it is complete or no longer available since your last retry or suspend. You CAN download multiple-gigabyte games (or multiple-gigabit games, as you suggest) over dialup on Steam. It will take a long time but it will work. But that's only if you can get Steam to install.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Orga]

When my ISP screws up and I lose my service they credit me. When Steam screws up and takes away the product I paid for.. I get nothing. Yes.. I will hold a grudge and I say very rightfully so.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[sabt-pestnu]

... in the same way that shooting yourself in to foot is preferable to shooting yourself in the head.

The least evil here is NO DRM, not "acceptable" DRM.

You can always compare the "conservative right" opinion with the "wingnut right" opinion to get something that sounds liberal. But only by comparison.

Civ IV eventually came out in a DRM-free version. I want to support the game. I'll wait for Civ V to come out the same way, rather than pirate (or even threaten to pirate) the game.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Adriax]

Actually it's more like buying a car that you cannot take insurance out on or keep in a garage at night. Sure you can still drive it, but if something wrecks your car you're SOL and have to fork over the purchase price again.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[HungryHobo]

I haven't touched steam in the last few months(finals) so I probably missed that.
Good to hear they've fixed that one.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you care to state for the court, in what location in the world software piracy is legal?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Ascagnel]

Civ IV eventually came out in a DRM-free version.

It did? Do you have any information on that?

rather than pirate (or even threaten to pirate) the game.

Don't pirate. Publishers count each case of piracy as a lost sale. That may be a flawed method, but its how they do it. Instead, take your money and buy a game that is roughly the same but doesn't have DRM (i.e.: Galactic Civilizations). Make sure you buy it from a shop that reports to NPD Group (they track video game sales) so the purchase gets properly represented. That sends a much harsher message than piracy: your policies drove my willing dollars elsewhere.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Ascagnel]

Steam has design problems, but the bigger issue is your ISP maintaining a proper connection. Check your contract -- they may be liable if they're not meeting a standard of service (residential contracts may not have such a standard, and if they do its generally lower than a commercial connection. Also, let your ISP know when you're having issues. I had relatively frequent dropouts until I explicitly informed my ISP; after I told them about it, they fixed it, and it stopped.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Nonsense. I was reluctant to use steam at first 6 years ago, but after realizing the value it adds to multiplayer gaming, i wished all my multiplayer games would one day use steam. It actually got me back into mp gaming as it was easy to get together with my friends. There is simply no matchmaking/server browsing solution that works as well or is as wide spread as steam. I actually bought gamespy arcade back in the day, and used it quite a bit.

Also, something I've noticed with all the 3rd party steam games I've bought, I can start them from their own executable in the steam folder regardless of whether steam is running, or if I have an internet connection. All MY (non-valve) games that I bought off steam work like this, and I have many, but I don't know if all 3rd party games will..

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Ascagnel]

Generally, the "only activate once" checks your activation code (serial number, etc.), downloads some portion of the game off a server somewhere, and then marks it as activated. Should that server go down, you may not be able to install the game any longer. At the same time, there are usually hidden activation limits (3 to 5 installs) before a game will shut down and require a phone call to tech support to up the limit.

Is Steam better than this? That's a matter of personal preference. Is it as good as no DRM? Hell no.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Its funny... I just bought the CIV IV on steam last night... I already owned the boxed version, but dropped my laptop bag and broke the CD. At least with Steam I can download to all of my PCs and play without trying to find or carry the darn disk. It even works without an internet connection. When I go to someone elses house who has steam I can log into my account and play my games. So far I am very happy with steam....

also note I had trouble with the disc version of Civ IV on Vista... it would not play in the admin account due to its stupid DRM. Steam's DRM is much less intrusive to the computer than the malware that 2Kgames included on the physical Civ disks.

Just my 2 cents from the trenches. (though downloading 4 gigs does take some time!)

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh - also note - CIV IV + Warlords + Colonization + something else? Is all only $10 on steam right now. Its worth $10 even if you already have Civ to not have to worry about scratching your disc :)

Re:Civ was my offline game

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

+1

I'll crap on Valve all day because I absolutely do not like Half Life.

Steam, while not perfect, is the best possible gaming drm system in existence.

I'm also glad it's coming to Mac.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[IronChef]

If you've never experienced problems with steam then you're on a high bandwidth, high reliability, always-on, unrestricted net connection.
In that situation steam is the best thing since sliced bread.

Except for the times when Steam is simply too busy to let you play. I admit it hasn't happened in a while, but there have been plenty of times in the past when I couldn't go play TF2 after work because too many other people seemed to have the same idea. The Steam servers told me they were busy and I should go play outside.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't heard this either because I use my account in Montreal, PQ and in NY state...two different countries...probably different territories.

No issue.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[BobMcD]

Bitching about slashdot is good karma, too. But you already noticed that, didn't you...

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Blakey Rat]

Not to exonerate Steam, but there are tons of apps that have issues with spotty internet connections.

One I have to constantly deal with is Windows Folder Share (or whatever the hell it's called now...) which, if it starts up once with a flaky connection, instantly assumes that there is no Internet connection at all, also that your username and password are wrong. It's about the most retarded "no network connection available" behavior I've ever seen.

What's even worse is that the same Windows Live product line includes Windows Live Messenger which is very good at handling spotty connections in an intelligent way.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[TehDuffman]

or somebody happens to break into your account and they disable it

Happens to break into your account? How does that happen?

I'd like to know your opinion on online banking.

I've had my account hacked after playing CS:S for the first time in 5 years. They have some way to get your account info if you connect to certain servers. Trust me i didn't give my account info away or even have a weak re-used password. I got an email confirming that my password was changed then that my email was changed. I email Valve within 20 minutes of the last email and got no response for almost 2 weeks.

So its very possible for your account to get hacked and them to take a long time to fix it in which case if the account hijacker hacks on a VAC server your account will be banned and even if they see it was hijacked during that time will not unban you.

Don't get me wrong I still use Steam and that was the only bad experience I've had with them.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Z34107]

1) Uncheck "always keep this game up to date" for games you don't want kept up to date.

2) Hit "Steam => Go Offline" if you want Steam to stay in offline mode.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Gridpoet]

I'm not sure what the problem is?

Just play the game in steam offline mode then... i can play all of my steam games in offline mode...

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Richard_at_work]

The law in question is Section 117 of the Copyright Act, and it states:

it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#117

Note the wording 'it is not an infringement', not 'you have the right to'. If you can make a copy for backup purposes, then that copy is not infringing on copyright law, but if you can't then you haven't lost any perceived 'right' to do so.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Nick Ives]

The only thing missing is a way to synchronize saved games through your Steam account.

This is called Steam Cloud and I believe Civ V supports it. Other games like Torchlight support it too!

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Nick Ives]

offline mode that wants to go online whenever it feels like it

Steam will only make itself go online when you try to play a Valve / Steamworks game online. If you're just playing single player, you can stay offline indefinitely.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[PopeRatzo]

such as Games For Windows Live (GFWL)

GFWL does suck pretty hard. I don't understand why it's even necessary on top of Steam. I've never used it for anything and on top of that, it's pretty easy to circumvent, so I just don't see what good it is or why any publisher would want to use it.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Try making sure your hard disk is set to DMA mode, not PIO mode ;)

Re:Civ was my offline game

[MWoody]

I had a similar but more frustrating experience about a month ago when a storm took our connection down for about a day. After the loooong timeout period, I was given a dialogue box option to "retry" or "go offline." I selected, of course, "go offline," but after another long delay, I was told the action "could not be completed without a network connection" and for more information, I was to "visit the following webpage" (HA!).

Complaining about this issue brought a lot of fanboy cries of it not "working as intended" and "to be fixed in a patch," but some searching revealed it's also not an unusual or new problem. Indeed, I can find bug reports of this exact issue so old that the pessimist in me wonders if this "flaw" is purposeful. They've got the best of both worlds: their fans reply to all complaints about the service with "you can always use offline mode," and meanwhile, there IS no functioning offline mode due to a "bug." Anyone who tests it to "prove" you're wrong will have it work because they actually have a working network connection.

Short story shorter: despite Valve's claims to the contrary, if your connection dies, Steam may very well flat-out refuse to start.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[smallfries]

Which part of "we don't have another renumeration method" sounds like "I have another renumeration method"?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[HungryHobo]

Oh my dialup days are long gone- though Steam over dialup is the devil, it is litterally evil, my first experince with steam was a surprise introduction after I bought half life 2 and then had to spend the best part of a full day on a pay dialup line with it trying(and failing, and corrupting my files and failing again and restarting... etc) to update half life 2 before I could play my single player offline game... which as you'd expect left a very very bitter taste.

Steam is really quite good and handy over a decent DSL connection but they utterly failed to consider even the posibility that any of their users might not have a high bandwidth connection.(like the ones who want to play single player games)

back then the worst element was the fanbase though since when I went on forums looking for any kind of fix or workaround I got nothing but a stream of trolls screaming about how there was nothing! NOTHING! WRONG WITH STEAM!!!!!

Now days it's only an issue over my wireless dongle when I'm away from home and I can live with that.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to add a "5" to the list...you buy a valve game such as half-life 2 on CD and need to spend the next 3 days activating and patching over dial-up BEFORE it allows you to go into offline mode and turn off automatic patching...(there seems to be no way to cancel the initial, 200MB patch when installing from disc)

Re:Civ was my offline game

[HungryHobo]

for some strange and unexplained reason they failed to allow you to do this after steam has decided your game needs a patch, like when you want to play it.
design flaw right there.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it doesn't. I've regularly traveled between the UK, Canada, USA, various bits of Europe, and never had a problem. You get nailed on one piece of FUD, so backpedal to another. Give us some proof or STFU you useless shit.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[HungryHobo]

I remember having problems with this shortly after the release of HL2(Ya I was pissed) but since then I haven't had too much problems with their actual servers going down.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Zemran]

"warrants" ??? you are sanctimonious. I do not have a DSL internet connection and most of the time I do not have any connection at all. Although it is hard for most people living in first world cities to imagine, the majority of computer users in the world are like me. Therefore, there is no point in me buying the retail version even though I have bought every other version since Civ II. If I want to play this one I have to buy a cracked version and I am going to play it.

They can smile with the sanctimonious idiots if they like but if they want to sell more they should think about this. I would happily pay for a good product and Civ has always been the best but I will not pay for a useless product and that is what this has just become.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Z34107]

And, Steam only does that if:

1) The game is set to be always kept up to date, or failing that

2) You started steam in online mode.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[josath]

Wow, that was pretty awesome. I almost find it hard to believe he is serious, having walked into that so obliviously.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Mex]

Absolutely, the one big caveat of Steam is that you can't sell or even gift your games you don't use anymore.

I'd love for this to change. However I don't think this is up to Steam/Valve alone - Publishers surely would shun their platform if Valve allowed resales, are you kidding?

But in the meantime, it's just too convenient and not intrusive enough to warrant using Steam.

Maybe in the future it will change, but I wouldn't hold my breath...

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Hurricane78]

Good luck with that “not worrying” when your games stop being on Steam.

Remember: With DRM you don’t actually have the game at all. Instead you have a subscription, that is checked every time you try to run the game. And when they think they have given you enough back, the game stops working. Of course with companies like EA or Ubisoft, that moment can be anytime right after they have your money in their hands.
You may call it business. I call it fraud.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Terrasque]

Good for you. I've seen that problem consistently across 5 machines (3 laptops, two desktops - one with SSD) with several games. It is especially noticable on the Dawn of War games, but I've seen it on other games too. It is *especially* noticable if you batch install 50 games at the same time. Seems like it hits an internal limit and goes boom. The worst I've seen was about 16 hours. It was not cpu limited, not HD limited (SSD), and not ram limited (got 6 gb ram on this machine). I have no idea why it's so slow, but it is, it's annoying, and I wish it wasn't so.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Mr. Freeman]

You're an idiot.

"It is not an infringment" or "it is not illegal" means that it IS legal and you have a right to it. Jesus Christ, you're just as bad as that dipshit attorney general we had. The one that argued the prohibition against removing the writ of habeus corpus in the constitution means that you don't actually have it, because it's never granted.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Mr. Freeman]

I completely agree, but what ISP are you using that credits you for downtime?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Anonymous Coward]

Feel free to seek legal protections for your rights to those games being added to the law.

I'd support that.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[senorironclad]

Can you, with a straight face, and with honesty, claim that any closed source, proprietary game is under your control? Can you answer this last question without "but"s? For most games, you have to agree to a EULA. This restricts what you can and can't do with that game. I think you're own criteria will restrict your game playing experience to FOSS games. And your question implies you HAVE to be online to play CiV, which is not the case. Steam isn't like Ubisoft's new DRM scheme. You can play steam games in offline mode. On the other hand, you can store your saved games on the Steam cloud, download the game any number of times on any number of computers, don't have to worry about physical media being scratched, don't have to worry about downloading latest patch, and a bunch of other things. The only thing about CiV that I am not liking is their move to monetized DLC micro-transactions. Preorder "Digital Deluxe" and get and an exclusive civilization??? ARGH!

Re:Civ was my offline game

[senorironclad]

Stupid formatting... Sorry for wall of text.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Richard_at_work]

Wow, you are an opinionated little shit aren't you - the law sets it out as a viable defence against a copyright infringement charge, not a right. Its in the same class as fair use - a defined defence against the charge, not a given right.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Kalriath]

From all the DRM systems out there, Steam is the least intrusive one and it actually gives you more value to the game (community, in-game browser, archievements).

No, Stardock's Impulse::Reactor is. You don't even need the Impulse client installed to run the game (just download updates, and it doesn't run unless you tell it to), has community, browser, and achievements, and doesn't need some bullshit fickle "offline mode" (which doesn't work a lot of the time) to run the game when your crappy residential grade connection craps out.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Kalriath]

You mean the "creating Steam cache" step? Where it turns a perfectly fine install package into a giant pile of Steaming crap? Yeah, that sucks. If I buy a game like Warhammer 40K DoW II, it's because I wanted to play it, not watch it patch.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Kalriath]

Not since Slashdot fucked up metamod. You don't moderate moderations with it any more, you just unaccountably assign +1 or -1 directly to posts. It's just like moderation now.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[rainmouse]

I've got to say that I really like Steam. CDs do not live very long in my untidy flat where as games I've bought on steam I can play on anyones computer thats connected to the internet and dont need boxes, leaflets and cd's lying around the place. Before Steam I used to pirate a lot of games (even ones I had legitimately bought) because I absolutely hate having to look out a CD and hope it still works.

I can understand some peoples materialistic need to physically hold something they have purchased but I don't subscribe to the argument that they will take your games back off you for no reason and with no recourse. That would be a great way to loose all your customers. The only people who have to worry are those who use or create 3rd party software to give themselves an unfair advantage in competative online environments and thank God somebody is finally doing something about these arsefountains.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[rainmouse]

Flamebait with a built in 'Flame me and I win' clause..... sneaky.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Nitar]

Steam has a tendency to lock accounts that log in from multiple IP addresses. 'Cause, you know, that's a crime.

Hahah! Spoken like someone who has never used Steam. As others have pointed out... this is a flat out lie. I log in from my computer at work, my laptop, and my home PC. I've never had this problem. Not one time. Not only that, but the Steam cloud appears to ENCOURAGE the use of Steam on multiple computers. I love that Torchlight was updated to use this. Being able to use the same saved games on my laptop and my home PC is fantastic.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Agret]

Before the new Steam client re-design offline mode was notoriously bad and at LAN events people resorted to using cracked copies of the game. It was pretty annoying having to track down a cracked copy when I owned the game legit and felt like a step backwards in gaming to me. I'm glad they have finally resolved the issues (supposably) but I guess time will tell :) As far as DRM goes though I do like Steam for being so unrestricted, I hate how SecuROM only lets you install on 5 PCs. I know it's not likely that i'll be installing the game on 5 PCs but you have to look into what constitutes a PC, could upgrading my motherboard & CPU count as a new PC? What about changing my graphics card? The number quickly adds up, especially if you use two machines or more.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[shnull]

same here, i want a retail version with a key that i can activate on steam as well so i can play it no matter what happens

Re:Civ was my offline game

[mcvos]

Would you care to state for the court, in what location in the world software piracy is legal?

What court are you talking about?

And if you'd read what I wrote, you could have seen that I said distribution is still illegal.

But apparently downloading a complete cracked game is also illegal. Apparently the rules for software are different than those for music and movies.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[brkello]

Is anything 100% under your control?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[brkello]

It doesn't remember the password? Right.
 
You are like the opposite of the annoying Steam fanboys you complain about. You are the anti-fanboy making any excuse you can to bash Steam.
 
It is a reasonable DRM that will work for the vast majority of people. It doesn't for you and a few other people. It sucks, but if you don't like it, don't use Steam.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[brkello]

Your concept of intrusive is different than what most people use with regards to Steam. When people complain about intrusive it generally has to do being able to play the game or limited number of installs or having to run a CD in your drive. With Steam, you open it up and you play your game. If you get another computer, you log in with your account, download the games you want, and are done. It is quite convenient and not intrusive (in that sense).

Re:Civ was my offline game

[ill1cit]

Please uninstall steam, you are obviously to retarded to use it. Seriously if you guys are finding it so difficult to use offline mode, I don't actually understand how you manage to turn on your computer.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[ill1cit]

It doesn't disable itself. You are doing it wrong. PEBCAK.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[ill1cit]

The only way I know of to actually lose your entire account it if you cause a charge back on a credit card payment. They will suspend your account until the charge back is resolved in their favour, which means if you can't get htis done it will be suspended for ever. You wont lose your account for cheating on VAC servers, you are just banned from playing that game on any VAC server forever.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[ill1cit]

That is also bullshit, you can log on from as many PCs as you want. It won't let you have two session online at anyone time however for obvious reasons.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[ill1cit]

That is complete bullshit, I use a VPN with an end point in the US (I live in Australia) to get a US IP so I can access the US steam store (cheaper prices and less content restrictions). I have no problems logging in and I have never been banned.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[metacell]

I think the tragady of the commons is only applicable if one person's use of a resource interferes with another's. The grand-grandparent argued that it was better to not play a game at all than to copy it illegally.

Regarding private copying in general, there are strong indications that it doesn't cause people to spend less money on media. The movie and game indutries keep on increasing their revenues year after year, despite high rates of private copying, and the decline of CD sales is offset by an increase in the sales of online music (which the record companies conveniently forget to mention every time they lobby for more legislation).

Re:Civ was my offline game

[Lordnerdzrool]

Problem with that train of thought: You can use Steam without updating it.

If there's no network connection, how would an old version even know its old?

Re:Civ was my offline game

[asretfroodle]

Civilization 5 will be released as a boxed version in retail stores as well. You will still be required to install Steam because 2K Games have chosen to use Steamworks with it.

When you install Steam you are required to be connected to the internet for it to look for updates, and to sign in to, or sign up for, an account.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[asretfroodle]

These same benefits exist on other systems as well. Stardock's Impulse platform is pretty good at avoiding some of the pitfalls Steam has. On the other hand it still isn't quite as slick as Steam is.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[asretfroodle]

The install/activation limit can still apply with games on the Steam platform as well. It doesn't have any inherent advantage over other systems here. Products distributed via Steam are often still protected by another system such as Securom.

The convenience you're talking about with Steam is also a common property of other digital distribution systems as well. Stardock's Impulse for example also lets you log in on another computer and download your games - just as convenient as Steam.

Impulse has some advantages though:

1. One-time activation - no need to keep checking if you're allowed to play it
2. The Impulse client isn't required to play your games
3. No need for an offline mode (see 2)
4. Updates are opt-in instead of opt-out
5. Offline activation method available - as long as you can get to another computer with internet access.

Re:Civ was my offline game

[asretfroodle]

Buying a disk doesn't help you if the game uses Steamworks though. I've been bitten by this with Empire:Total War and Just Cause 2. Looks like Civ 5 is off the shopping list.

What, it start with Steamworks?

[Bugamn]

In my time Civ started with dirt and road, if you were lucky.

Re:What, it start with Steamworks?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ba-dum-tish.

Re:What, it start with Steamworks?

[allcoolnameswheretak]

You are my hero of the day. :))

Re:What, it start with Steamworks?

[Anonymous Coward]

A road?! Luxury!

Re:What, it start with Steamworks?

[mcvos]

My first thought was: Steam tech in Civ? What'll they think of next? Horseback Riding?

Re:What, it start with Steamworks?

[sabt-pestnu]

You got dirt? I had to make my dirt out of raw pixels! And I was grateful for those pixels!

Sid Meier, deity ; ).

[MRe_nl]

But but ...
I still haven't won Civ 3 C on deity level yet.
The C5 graphics/movies look stunning, but multiplayer Civ, which I've never tried in years of playing, seems like an extremely tedious business.
I turn off "see friendly moves" on large maps because i think the AI's turn takes to long.
Imagine having to wait for two (or five) human players. And I tend to play "one more turn" for about ten hours occasionally.
Any experienced online Civ players care to explain how that works? Do you play one turn per day a la PBM/ some online go/chess matches?

Re:Sid Meier, deity ; ).

[azaris]

In CIV the player turns are concurrent (turn-based WEGO). It works pretty well, although if you're used to strict turn-based IGOUGO in single-player the combat will throw you off a bit.

Re:Sid Meier, deity ; ).

[Anonymous Coward]

Civ 4 has an optional "simultaneous turns"-mode, where all the players move at the same time, then the next turn happens when they've all pressed "end turn". It works better than it sounds, though I can't offhand explain how it resolves interactions between players.

I've played with one or two other people and some AI players ... and the "one more turn"-effect is as strong as in singleplayer. Games always last far into the early morning, despite plans to the contrary.

Re:Sid Meier, deity ; ).

[Jorth]

The simultaneous moves system functions very well to speed up multiplayer. This isn't to say on a world map my friend and I have beaten 4-5 Monarch computers in around 36 hours played over a number of sessions.

The great part about civ is you can really save any turn (if you can beat the Just One More Turn... desires!) and pick it up again whenever you are ready.

Turn time limits also work in a bigger game competitively, the timers are Short Medium Long, and function as a multiplication of how many units / cities you have, it is very generious but definately keeps things moving along.

Re:Sid Meier, deity ; ).

[slyrat]

There is a handy app they made for civ 4 called pitboss. It makes it so you can create a server game without having to have the full game running. With this going you can have it set up so you can get emails for whenever it is your turn and you log on and take your turn. It also, at the same time, allows multiple people to be on for playing.
When I played it a lot with friends a few years ago we would have a weekly 2 hour or so of playing on one night of the week and then after that just log in for the 1-5 turns each day via email. What makes it worth it is the much more interesting deals and partnerships you can get going with other human players.

Otherwise there were easy ways to make much quicker games. You could do a advance start where you have x amount of money / to get cities / techs based on the start age. That way you can customize and still start in the middle ages or modern day or whatever. There were a few other ways to make it still interesting but quicker but those are the only ones I actually tried.

You will need to Install the latest Flash plugin .

[Tei]

You will need to Install the latest Flash plugin to view this page properly.... To view a video? how quaint.

too bad

[Anonymous Coward]

I always bought the special edition box sets. I loved the game ever since the original, hell I still play the original.

Steamworks is offline friendly.

[Tei]

Steamworks on other games like Torchlight just serve to add features, not remove then. In Torchlight it redistribute your savegames. So you can start a game on the Netbook, and wen you get home, continue that game on the Desktop.

I don't know you, but this sounds like a good feature to have in Civi.

And you can play Torchlight offline. The whole Steam thing can run offline.

No Sid We Do Not Love The Steam

[oakwine]

At least a good number of us don't. A larger number don't understand the steam and have heard many horror stories. So some fair percentage of your potential Civ 5 players are likely to give this one a pass. Sid, I don't know what you're smoking, but I suggest you smoke something else!

Re:No Sid We Do Not Love The Steam

[Ascagnel]

Steam is pretty bad, but at least it works. 2K, and most publishers, have been going with Games for Windows Live, and that's an even bigger mess. GfWL lets you play single-player offline, but puts on an activation limit. Also, the peer-to-peer networking in GfWL doesn't work unless you either DMZ the system running it or forward a whole bunch of ports. If your ISP has an upstream firewall, it probably won't work at all. Strategy games generally use P2P and host migration for multiplayer, so you can see where GfWL would create issues.

Achievement:

[bersl2]

Your phalanx unit successfully defends against an attack from an enemy battleship.

Re:Achievement:

[homb]

That's actually rather normal. The phalanx unit hunkers down, digs foxholes and caves. Good luck mr. battleship.

(the problem of course being how the phalanx ends up sinking the battleship)

Re:Achievement:

[tangelogee]

Well, you know, a well-placed spear in a turret, and boom! A la Iowa (granted that was from bad powder and maintenance issues, but still)

Re:Achievement:

[sweatyboatman]

while pounding away at the cliffs, one of the big guns overheats and jams, the shell in the chamber explodes setting off a chain reaction that sinks the ship

Re:Achievement:

[homb]

Or of course a night insertion by the phalanx special forces team that scales up the battleship with knives between their teeth and murder in their eyes.
The rest is history.

Re:Achievement:

[Bugamn]

Artistic depitiction of event: http://www2.b3ta.com/host/creative/10643/1247758483/300Titanic.jpg

Re:Achievement:

[chronosan]

Not much of an achievement. That happens all the time. IIRC, all a battleship can do against an enemy land tile is bombard it, which never results in unit death. Now if you meant gunship, that's different.

Re:Achievement:

[magus_melchior]

I wonder what the achievement title for that would be.

How about "Somali Pirates FTW"?

Re:Achievement:

[Hurricane78]

No, that would be possible. It actually went like this:

Your Phalanx unit successfully attacked and destroyed an enemy aircraft carrier.

I have seen this myself.

Luckily, you could fix the game. But I did it the other way around. In my version, none of the rules made sense. ;)
My settlers could move 16 squares in one round, over water, nuke cities, and conveniently carry up to 16 aircraft carriers in its wagon. And in the diplomacy screen your choices for making war were “Yes” and “Yes*”. :D

Let me rewrite the headline

[Aceticon]

Fifth incarnation of a once great game that was boring already on version 3 is going to use DRM that requires at least periodical Internet connectivity on your gamming machine

Cracked product expected to be superior.

News at 5.

Re:Let me rewrite the headline

[Boldoran]

Civ IV was the best Civ I ever played (I played a bit of Civ 1 and a lot of Civ II and Test of Time (not from Sid I know)). Periodic Internet connectivity is required for download. After tha you could turn off your Internet connection and keep playing as long as you want. Of course no DRM at all would be better but compared to the alternative soulutions by ubisoft etc steam is vastly more consumer friendly.

Re:Let me rewrite the headline

[Boldoran]

By Test of Time I actually meant Call to Power. Got confused there for a second.

Re:Let me rewrite the headline

[Gilmoure]

Yeah, what were they thinking? Don't they know some of us out here only like to play with ourselves?

shameful

[emkyooess]

Well, here's to the first game in the Civ series I don't buy.

Re:shameful

[kuzb]

I bought Civ 2, it guaranteed I'd never buy another civ game again. They're clunky games that have a good premise but are executed horribly.

Re:You will need to Install the latest Flash plugi

[Thanshin]

You will need to Install the latest Flash plugin to view this page properly.

It must be in HTML5 then.

Good move

[Thorizdin]

Good move, kudos to Sid and company for ignoring the idiotic knee jerk reactions seen on some message boards I won't mention. Requiring occasional (I have gone at least 2 weeks before) access back to Steam as opposed to having to keep track of some number of CD's _and_ being able to have the game installed on multiple PC's is a net positive IMNHO. The improved matchmaking sounds like icing on the cake.

Re:Good move

[Anonymous Coward]

I can picture the infomercial now. "Do you have trouble keeping track of some number of CD's?" "You need the Steam."

Re:Good move

[Thorizdin]

I know I personally bought 2 copies of Civ IV, I have no idea where my copy of Civ III is, and I like playing older games. Steam = much easier access to my games. That may or may not be true for everyone, but then again not everyone is married to compulsive organizer who puts things where they make sense for her but are incomprehensible for me.

How long will it last

[Paul Carver]

I still play Civilization Call to Power. It is my all time favorite addiction. I don't pull it out often because when I do I can easily play all night and not even realize that dawn has arrived. But I do pull it out occasionally and I'm glad I can play it without worrying about whether the company will still let me.

I guess I'm bad for the games industry by enjoying a game that's so old, but I won't even contemplate buying a game with DRM because I just don't trust that I'd be able to play it long after it stops being the hit new thing.

Re:How long will it last

[kammat]

but I won't even contemplate buying a game with DRM because I just don't trust that I'd be able to play it long after it stops being the hit new thing.

You do know Valve has promised to patch around Steam authentication if the shit ever does hit the fan?

Re:How long will it last

[Anonymous Coward]

I promise to personally hand you 1 million dollars after I've died.

When "shit hits the fan", Steam won't be around to make/release those patches.

Re:How long will it last

[Paul Carver]

You do know Valve has promised to patch around Steam authentication if the shit ever does hit the fan?

I was not familiar with the link you provided, but I just read it now and it says this:

According to the Steam Subscriber Agreement, Steam's availability is not guaranteed and Valve is under no legal obligation to release an update disabling the authentication system in the event that Steam becomes permanently unavailable.

Forgive me for failing to be reassured. I think my point still stands. I haven't played Civilization Call to Power in over a year (nearly two years I think) but I'm planning to install it onto the netbook I just purchased last week after I get Linux installed and then a VirtualBox Windows install. I'm pretty confident that it will work fine, but I have serious doubts about whether I would be able to do so if the sort of DRM we have these days had been in effect back when I bought Civ:CtP.

Re:How long will it last

[tlhIngan]

I promise to personally hand you 1 million dollars after I've died.

When "shit hits the fan", Steam won't be around to make/release those patches.

Unless something really catastrophic happens, it is very unlikely for the "shit to hit the fan" - Steam is a very valuable piece of property simply because it's got a pretty large userbase that buys stuff and has stuff in it. And with more content publishers making stuff available on it, it gets more so. Steam's got critical mass and the network effect going. Should Valve go bankrupt and die, all the big gaming companies will want to scoop up Steam. Simply because customers are opening their wallets and spending money on Steam.

The only real threat is someone buys out Valve and gets greedy by implementing stupid policies that go against the reason why Steam is so popular in the first place (e.g., download limits, subscription fees, etc.). Which is, unfortunately, a far likelier possibility than Steam going tits up outright.

Re:How long will it last

[sabt-pestnu]

Seriously. I had only a short time to play the other night, so I chose WoW over Civ IV, because I could stop playing WoW easier.

Re:How long will it last

[Nick Ives]

If you read the forum post referenced by that Wikipedia article, you'll notice it's not a binding guarantee.

According to the Steam Subscriber Agreement, we don't buy games on Steam. We subscribe to the Steam service and purchase Subscriptions (i.e. games) via the service.

The idea that Valve would unlock non-Valve games in the event of Steam going under is madness. No publisher would agree to it; all Valve does is distribute games from other publishers under license and breaking the terms of that license in the event of bankruptcy would probably result in the directors of Valve being sued.

Of course, I'm not really concerned about this scenario. Steam is a golden goose and is run by people who understand the gaming market, all they have to do is carry on as they are and they'll continue to make megabucks and provide the service we all expect.

Re:How long will it last

[Mex]

I don't like this DRM business either, but Valve has been around more than 10 years, and the Steam platform for like 6 or 8 years. Honestly besides the rare internet outage I've not had any problems with them.

Valve is honestly the last great PC gaming company left, I support them whenever I can.

Hell, they're still supporting TF2 with patches and new content, 3 years after it was released.

Re:How long will it last

[Stray7Xi]

You do know Valve has promised to patch around Steam authentication if the shit ever does hit the fan?

Unless it's already made and in escrow you can be sure they won't release one:
1. If the shit hits the fan it's too late, how are they going to pay to develop that patch?
2. If they're going bankrupt it's because they're in debt. Do you think their creditors will let them give away something they perceive as having value?

Re:How long will it last

[brkello]

I think that is a silly reason to avoid great games. If for some reason the stars align and evil spreads across the galaxy and Steam shuts down and doesn't release the games from its wicked clutches, just go pirate the game. It's not that hard.

They should have...

[mindwhip]

...stopped at Civ 3 anyway. The game has been done to death and no rehash of graphics, world geometry or technology trees will change or improve it sufficiently for me to buy the same game over and over again...

Re:They should have...

[Mongoose Disciple]

IMHO, Civ 4 is a much, much better game than Civ 3, independent of graphics, world geometry, or changes to technology trees. It introduces a bunch of new ideas, and it takes a bunch of ideas that were implemented in a half-baked way in 3 and actually makes them good.

YMMV.

Re:They should have...

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, no. Civ 3 was the worst in the series. 4 was much, *much*, better.

Re:They should have...

[moonbender]

Civ 4 was fantastic and Civ 5 seems to be a rather radical departure, breaking with many gameplay constants that AFAIK exist since Civ1.

I Love The Steam

[antirelic]

I'm not trying to fanboi Steam, but I like it, and I like it a lot. Having been fiddling with the computers for nearly 2 decades now, I am tired of having to deal with media that changes every 6-8 years. Steam solves this problem. It also solves the problem of having to port my media around, store my media, and defend my media from damage. Unless steam starts charging a per bit fee for downloads, I will continue to choose Steam as my 1st choice when deciding the source of my PC game purchase.

Of course, if "Net Neutrality" kicks in and service providers are forced to go to a $$$/per GB model, then I can foresee Steam dying, and a huge amount of money flushed down the drain.

How? There's a business of it.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Happens to break into your account? How does that happen?

Spyware with keyloggers that steals logins of all kinds, usually. Hell, they'll even rob WoW characters of equipment these days, not to mention webmail accounts and (obviously) online bank accounts.

What makes you think there's a type of username/password they won't steal?

I second that

[drinkypoo]

Civ 5 was going to be my first PC game purchased in literally years (besides the humble indie bundle, who could pass that up? But I'm talking about going to a store and buying a box.) But I am diametrically opposed to Steam's attack on First Sale law, and will not purchase any game which uses Steam again. I already went through it with Half-Life 2; I did not find any of the mods worth playing, so to me the game has zero replay value, and I would like to re-sell it, but I can't, even though I bought it on a disc at the store. Just say no to Steam. I will not be paying for Civ 5.

Re:I second that

[emkyooess]

Do not forget that steamworks DRM is also included on boxed copies.

Re:I second that

[drinkypoo]

Do not forget that steamworks DRM is also included on boxed copies.

What part of my story about buying Half-Life 2 in a store and not being able to resell it led you to believe that I would not understand that the DRM was included with boxed copies as well? The truly abusive thing about Steam to me is that you can't even play a backup without installing and updating Steam. Steam 'backups' are not backups because they are not playable. So I can't sell it, and I can't play it? What the heck did I pay for? Shelf space? Die, Valve, Die.

Re:I second that

[Boldoran]

Correct me if I am wrong but I think steam lets you gift your games to other users so what is stoping you from doing that?

Re:I second that

[drinkypoo]

Correct me if I am wrong but I think steam lets you gift your games to other users so what is stoping you from doing that?

This:

What is a Steam gift purchase?

When you purchase a game on Steam, we offer the option to "gift" the item to anyone you choose, whether or not the recipient is a current Steam user. The recipient will receive the gift as an attractive e-mail card with a personal message from you and instructions to redeem the game.

A Steam gift purchase is a one-time transfer--after the recipient has activated and installed the game, it is a non-refundable game in his or her Steam games collection. Also note that you may only gift new purchases--you may not transfer games you already own. That'd be like wrapping up and presenting the toaster you've used every morning for the past year.

In other words, Valve does not recognize your right to sell (or give away) a used toaster. Personally, I know people without a toaster, who would appreciate it if I wrapped mine up and gave it to them, even though it is lame. Steam was designed to prevent you from exercising your First Sale rights, period, the end. All this digital download shit is an incentive to the user to give away their rights. It's about preventing resale first, and about selling you games second.

Re:I second that

[Boldoran]

Ok you are right. I agree that digital distribution is killing the second hand market. On the other hand there have been sales in these online stores with prices so low that I guess one would be hard pressed to find their match in the second hand market.

Re:I second that

[Anonymous Coward]

I also pay a lot less for a Steam game in general, and I get the convenience of being able to download it anywhere at any time and delete to save disk space without having to find your CD to reinstall, an easy list of people to game with, a nice dashboard and easy purchasing, and lots of indie games. Steam is a service. If you want to "own" your games, then yes, you don't want to use Steam. But when you look at it as a service, they provide a heck of a lot of value overall in exchange for your not "owning" the games.

- Pitabred

Re:I second that

[drinkypoo]

If you want to "own" your games, then yes, you don't want to use Steam. But when you look at it as a service, they provide a heck of a lot of value overall in exchange for your not "owning" the games.

If the benefit is worth it to you, so be it. My complaints are in response to the ridiculous claims that there are no drawbacks to the Steam platform, and they explain why some people might not want to use Steam. If First Sale isn't important to you, by all means, support Steam by spending money on Steam-powered titles.

Re:I second that

[Anonymous Coward]

Well that's because regifting is tacky.

Re:I second that

[brkello]

Despite you posting on games articles constantly, I don't think you actually like games. I think you just like complaining about your little moral crusades. Quite honestly, Steam really has very few issues for anyone with broadband. I have no issues playing games through it. If you are worried about not being able to sell it, wait for it to come down in price because Steam will have great deals every week.
 
But I think you enjoy complaining about DRM and the definition of piracy more than you actually enjoy games.

Re:How? There's a business of it.

[Thanshin]

Spyware with keyloggers that steals logins of all kinds, usually. Hell, they'll even rob WoW characters of equipment these days, not to mention webmail accounts and (obviously) online bank accounts.

That was exactly my thought.

What I can't imagine is even thinking about my steam games after someone has emptied my bank account.

News??

[Gothmolly]

How is this remotely news? I'm a big Civ fan, but outside of a few basement dwellers, how does their choice of online platforms matter? Is anyone going to buy (or not buy?) the game because of this?

It's the same as if they mentioned that the new Civ will come in a blue cardboard box instead of a white one.

Re:News??

[Per Abrahamsen]

> but outside of a few basement dwellers

And who do you think the core audience of /. are?

Re:News??

[holmstar]

Yes. I'm not a basement dweller, and I was previously excited about this game, but I refuse to buy it if it is tied to steam. If I still have the hardware to play a game ten years from now, I want to be able to play it if I choose to. There is absolutely no guarantee that steam will still be around then, and even if it is, there is no guarantee that they will still support the game, or release a patch to unlock the game from steam.

Bottom line, I refuse to buy a product that is defective by design. They lost my sale.

USE STEAM BEFORE SLAGGING IT OFF

[wintermute000]

Seriously

Everyone who is slagging off steam, try it before you complain.
I have had ZERO problems with steam, before I was a sceptic and now I am a convert.
The auto-patching auto-updating goodness is worth its weight in gold.
Never had a problem playing offline or whatever.
Rebuild a PC? no issue, unlimited re-downloads, much easier to kick off steam and walk away than dig out masses of discs, then go through hours or hunt and patch, etc.
Games are CHEAP esp if you bag them on sale (GTA4 for 7 bucks USD, Op. Flashpoint Dragon Rising for 5 bucks etc.)

Put it this way: its so good and convenient that I buy games (on sale of course lol) that I can pirate in front of me. I see the pirate bay / rapidshare / usenet link in front of me at the same time as a steam sale. Guess who wins 10/10.

Steam: DRM done right - non intrusive, value added (auto patching, friends lists/voice/matchmaking etc., forget about juggling masses of CDs and cases), cheaper than boxed retail.

If you want to sell a used game then OK you are SOTL but thats the bargain you are making.

Re:USE STEAM BEFORE SLAGGING IT OFF

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to sell a used game then OK you are SOTL but thats the bargain you are making.

No deal. I stick with the Pirate Bay. That way as soon as I've finished with a game at least I havn't lost anything financially.

Re:USE STEAM BEFORE SLAGGING IT OFF

[Anonymous Coward]

I take long trips with my laptop and no internet connection, and I've encountered a problem with Steam. The offline mode doesn't always want to work offline. I can click 'go offline', but it just tells me it can't get a network connection and thus can't start until I have an internet connection again.

Re:USE STEAM BEFORE SLAGGING IT OFF

[geekoid]

You missed the point.

DRM only serves to remove your right. Right to resale, right to do what you want with the game. It also puts you in a position of assuming you are guilty of a crime until you prove otherwise. It also becomes a nightmare is someone gets into your account.

Steam will ebcome standarde,and then there won't be the choice to not use it if you want to game.

It's nice for people like you who are happy to be their bitch in exchange for convenience, but for people who actually want consumers to have choice it's not ok.

Yeah, I have sued it. While it's not perfect, it has been pretty good. However I have had games I haven't wanted to update get updated, off line mode completely crap out, and have had steam crash repeatedly when my internet was down.

All that is secondary to the philosophically stance that people should be treat as criminals by default, regardless of how convenient it is.

Re:USE STEAM BEFORE SLAGGING IT OFF

[HeckRuler]

Well, I HAVE used steam, but I haven't actually bashed steam here on slashdot.
Until your post.
Unlike you, I have had non-zero problems with steam. I had a pretty shitty connection at the time, and several times the damn steam client wouldn't let me play CS:Source offline. I'm really not sure why, I didn't troubleshoot it, that's not why I bought the game. But that was years ago, things may be better now. I wouldn't know, I've never gone back.

It very well may be DRM "done right" or the best example of DRM that the corps have to offer. But you know? That's just not enough. It's still restrictive DRM and it's still not the direction I want the game industry to go. Even the code-wheels were better then this.

Re:USE STEAM BEFORE SLAGGING IT OFF

[Prien715]

So I lose my right to resale, but now I can never lose the game? It's a very strange argument to not want to buy a game, because you can't sell it for half the price.

I've bought Civ2-4+expansions and I have a hard time playing 4 at the moment because of a scratched disk and the inability to find a no-cd crack.

Re:USE STEAM BEFORE SLAGGING IT OFF

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, which is great if you have a choice between buying the Retail Boxed version or the Steam version... if you're forced to buy the Steam version in order to play, well, that's a no-go for me. I can't afford to buy games left and right unless I know I can unload them later to recoup some of the cost.

Re:USE STEAM BEFORE SLAGGING IT OFF

[geekoid]

" It's a very strange argument to not want to buy a game, because you can't sell it for half the price."
the right to resale is a little deeper then that. I also loose the right to give it away, and the right to do with it what I please.

If I lose the disk, that's my own fault and my own doing. The people controlling the DRM can decide to take ti away from you.

Steam could change the issues I"m concerned with.

Allow a local back up, remove DRM after a year, allow me to sell or gift the game to others, turn steam into a home server so if one person is playing one game, someone else can play another.

Your example is a fine argument against DRM. I mean really, you should need to load the game.

If you can't find a no-cd crack, download the game iso and mount it with magic disk or something.

Steam has some great advantages, no doubt.

If ti was just about money, I wouldn't really complain. I can always get games elsewhere and then install them from disk and have steam manage them.

Re:USE STEAM BEFORE SLAGGING IT OFF

[BitZtream]

Steam: DRM done right - non intrusive, value added (auto patching, friends lists/voice/matchmaking etc., forget about juggling masses of CDs and cases), cheaper than boxed retail.

I can have all of those things without the DRM and a better experience too boot.

I can and do buy games online with auto patching, friends lists and no need to juggle CDs and I do it without any DRM, once you throw in the fact that the DRM-less version will likely be available on piratebay before I can buy it from steam you really have no actual advantage to Steam. Its nothing more than a Walmart to me, and when they add stupid restrictions I don't like I'll simply go to kmart, or piss me off enough and I'll just buy it out of my friends trunk instead so I don't have to deal with your bullshit DRM.

If you want to sell a used game then OK you are SOTL but thats the bargain you are making.

Bargin? What fucking bargin are you talking about? Most games cost the exact same in download only form as they do in box, and then I'm stuck relying on steam to allow me to play it rather than just putting the disk in and playing it whenever I want. There is no bargin in steam, you actually get less across the board for the same price.

Re:USE STEAM BEFORE SLAGGING IT OFF

[Mashiki]

The first time I used steam was when HL came with my video card, and I got a free download for it. Sometimes I don't want to patch a game, because I like it the way it is. Sometimes it introduces new bugs. The offline mode sucks, especially when it randomly decides to kick back on and authenticate, minimizing the game; leading to a wonderful crash. Have had a few backups for all the games, they majority refused to restore. And those that did, automatically applied the patches.

The game prices are about the only benefit to the entire system. There's still no physical media where I can sell my games if I get tired of it. There's no chance for a turn around either. I enjoy my physical media, besides there's nothing stopping them from turning around and nuking your account, and all your games along with it. It's pretty hard to stop someone from saying I can't play my physical media games.

Re:USE STEAM BEFORE SLAGGING IT OFF

[magus_melchior]

Rebuild a PC? no issue, unlimited re-downloads, much easier to kick off steam and walk away than dig out masses of discs, then go through hours or hunt and patch, etc.

This. This (and Blizzard's following suit with unlimited downloads per license of their games) is why I am no longer going to buy physical media for games ever again.

Though Blizzard did see some of my money repeatedly because I was lousy at maintaining my Starcraft discs...

Re:USE STEAM BEFORE SLAGGING IT OFF

[Ramahan]

Seriously

Everyone who is slagging off steam, try it before you complain. I have had ZERO problems with steam, before I was a sceptic and now I am a convert.

Is that like a rape victim learning to like it?

The auto-patching auto-updating goodness is worth its weight in gold.

Compared to what? Logging on seeing there is an update and clicking a button? Maybe if you weren't tied to Steam you wouldn't need all those updates that have more to do with Steam then they do with game play!

Never had a problem playing offline or whatever.

I've never had a problem with any of my games either but of course I only have to have the game running. No need to ask some other program and servers for permission first!

Rebuild a PC? no issue, unlimited re-downloads, much easier to kick off steam and walk away than dig out masses of discs, then go through hours or hunt and patch, etc.

Hmmm! Masses of discs? Ok what Eras games are you talking about since I haven't seen a single game in 5 years that wasn't on a single DVD. I also don't go through hours of patches since I can keep everything backed up to a nice external drive so when I rebuild I only have to reinstall the game. Not the Steam client and the Game!

Games are CHEAP esp if you bag them on sale (GTA4 for 7 bucks USD, Op. Flashpoint Dragon Rising for 5 bucks etc.)

Yep they sure are but its my money paying for them and not Steams so Steam shouldn't be decidding what I can do with the game when I get bored with it! Maybe you enjoy having someone telling you what you can do with something you own and what you can do with it but I like retaining full ownership after I pay for it!

Re:USE STEAM BEFORE SLAGGING IT OFF

[wintermute000]

Wow passive aggressive gaming nerd (ain't seen that before... esp on slashdot...). Love the rape analogy as well, full marks for straw man.

Re:How? There's a business of it.

[metacell]

Banks use static passwords where you live?

My bank requires me to enter a new number each time on a small keypad, and it produces a unique response, so a keylogger won't do much good.

I hate subsidizing DRM

[Dalzhim]

I don't like to have my buck used to implement DRM.
Civ IV will be the last Civ game I've bought.

Re:I hate subsidizing DRM

[Dalzhim]

I should have RTFA'ed. Please mod parent down.

No DRM for me.

[Anonymous Coward]

My son has a Steam account. I have no interest in using it. I also have aDSL broadband. I don't feel like spending six hours per machine downloading, and I have six PCs networked for multiplayer at home, plus my Laptop for travel/work.

I checked out Civ IV when it first shipped, saw the DRM and passed. I finally bought it about a month ago when I saw they put out a compilation box without DRM, now my friends and I play that and three of them have bought it for themselves at their homes too. I guess I will not be playing Civ V until they do the same with that, if ever.

Gone onto the XBox

[atuline]

I suspect that the increasing levels of DRM combined with customer response, will help to further reduce PC gaming to a niche market. As much as I prefer the PC's keyboard/mouse combination along with clan based community for for online gaming, I've long since converted over to the XBox. Why? Compatibility issues, DRM, patches/mod requirements just to keep up, hardware upgrade requirements and more. As much as I miss my PC for gaming, the XBox just works (and yes I need a Gold account to play online). Oh, and I can sell any XBox CD's I no longer wish to play. The thing I miss, however, is playing with my clan, so I may need to purchase a PC game every few years to play with them. This coming from someone who played Flight Simulator 1.0 on his original IBM PC.

Re:Gone onto the XBox

[syrinx]

... what is the Xbox other than DRM writ large? Consoles are much more restrictive than any PC DRM could ever be. If you like console gaming, go for it, but citing DRM as an issue doesn't make sense.

DRM done 'right' is still DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

... Steam: DRM done right - non intrusive, value added (auto patching, friends lists/voice/matchmaking etc., forget about juggling masses of CDs and cases), cheaper than boxed retail. ...

I think Steam is one of the best DRMs out there. But its still DRM. Best DRM is like Least Insane Dictator. Just because he's less likely to have your whole family murdered over a misunderstanding, doesn't mean you have to like it.

Is it tolerable? I dunno. In itself, I think so. But, on principle, if I tolerate Steam now, why would the publishers ever go with no DRM at all?

ps. and NO, I don't think that DRM means I can pirate the game and be justified. (Tho I would argue that anyone who BUYS the game and then pirates it, may not be legal, but is morally ok)

Sorry Sid,

[blind biker]

even though I always dreamed of a hex map for Civilization, this is going to be the first Civ I'll give a pass.

The funny thing is, I really thought the Civ guys (product managers and devs) understood the pointlessness of DRM, when they released the latest update for Vic IV that included what is practically a no-CD/DVD patch. They want to DRM it now? Boohoo. No money from me.

Though, with the tactical battle thingy, I guess Civ V isn't really targeting the old-time Civ fans. They're clearly going for a new market.

How does that benefit me?

[Rix]

I'll play/watch/listen/read what I like. I'll pay the creators if they can resist being a jackass.

The only bad thing...

[KamuZ]

The only bad thing about steam is that my current ISP which is shared, they throttle all traffic but HTTP/HTTPS so if I buy a game, I will download around 100kb/s if everything is fine. On the other hand, my http downloads are in the 6000-8000kb/s range.
I know they are throttling because people just leave the torrents and sharing programs all die and the network as unbearable.

If Steam allowed to use port 80 or 443 to get their games, I will go back and keep buying from them but they don't want to do this for some reason. But I don't suffer you see, I just get my games from local stores, prices vary.

Is "Crappy ISP" code for "Neighbor's open WiFi"?

[joebob2000]

Just askin'.

Civilization matchmaking ?

[Cochonou]

Of course, you can only play a good 4X multiplayer game with friends... because the session is going to run for hours !
You cannot trust the average unknown player not to quit on your first tank rush or zergling rush in RTS games... so let's not even speak about reaching the iron age in Civilization.

Non-intrusive?

[Bungleman]

Why is everyone saying that Steam is non-intrusive? It forces you to install it on your system and constantly whines when you don't have a net connection. Steam is only good if you have a good, reliable broadband connection. I know that encompasses most people now, but there are some people who simply don't have the option. I live in a rural area without broadband access, but *gasp* I enjoy playing games. Back when Half-Life 2 was released, I was still on dialup, and Steam was a MAJOR pain. It would work fine in offline mode for a few days, but then it would decide that it just had to authenticate online again. Unfortunately, after dialing in, Steam told me that I just HAD to download some new 200mb patch in order to play my single player game. Why? I have no idea. So this cycle would continue... some days it would be a never ending cycle of patches, since as soon as I got one finished, Steam would prompt me to download the next one. It took me months to finish a simple game due to that crapware. I have satellite now, which is marginally better because I can at least download patches, but the connection to Steam is still spotty. Besides, I shouldn't NEED to connect to play a single player game that I own. So for all of you who love singing Steam's praises, congratulations. Steam does what you want, and in your mind, the DRM is worth the hassle. That's not the case for me, so I can't support it. As an avid Civ 4 player, this is disappointing.

Steam only installs to C: Drive?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone here know how to install a Steam game to a harddrive other than the C: drive?

Steam never gives you an option of where to install your game. I've got Steam and love it, but my C: drive is FULL so I only have a couple games installed right now. My store bought non-steam games let me install to whatever drive I want. My copy of Civ4 is currently installed to an external drive and runs fine.

I won't be getting this game until steam lets me install to a different drive, or someone tells me how to do it. {help}

Re:Steam only installs to C: Drive?!?

[ill1cit]

You have to create a directory junction. I have steam and some games installed on an SSD, the rest are on a 10K raptor.

From the command line type mklink (win vista and 7).

If you want some game on your C and some on a different drive you will have to create a directory junction for each game (you will need to install it on C first, move it to do and then create the directory junction) otherwise you can just move your entire steamapps folder to d and create a directory junction on C that links to your steamapps folder on D.

Hopefully steam updates it so you can split your game install path without having to fuck around with this shit.

Steam has never worked right for me

[Anonymous Coward]

Mostly because i've never used it. I read about what it was when it came out & said "fuck you valve" and never bought anything from them ever again.

Fuck you valve. I refuse to use an online login for a single-player game.

maybe it would be different.

[merockstar]

I've seen like three posts that say if the DRM is too restrictive that it would be the first cracked version you download. Peachy, but that more than likely includes the loss of online play, because at the moment you can't play a cracked version of Civ IV online to my knowledge. As soon as I'm good enough at that game I intend to buy it so I can try it online, because my computer will more than likely not be able to run Civ V. If online multiplayer is going to be prominent enough in this title for it to be a steam title, well...

I still play Civilization Call to Power.

[Anonymous Coward]

I still play Civilization Call to Power. It is my all time favorite addiction. jeux flash en ligne