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Android Sales Surpass iPhone Sales
gollum123 writes with this excerpt from VentureBeat:
"Smartphones based on Google's Android mobile operating system outsold Apple's iPhone in the US during the first quarter of 2010, according to a report by research firm The NPD Group. The data places Android, with 28 percent of the smartphone market [last quarter], in second place behind RIM's Blackberry smartphone market share of 36 percent. Apple now sits in third place with 21 percent. NPD points to a Verizon buy-one-get-one-free promotion for all of its smartphones as a major factor in the first-quarter numbers. Verizon saw strong sales for the Motorola Droid and Droid Eris Android phones, as well as the Blackberry Curve, thanks to its promotional offer. Verizon launched a $100 million marketing campaign for the Droid when it hit the market in November 2009, which likely contributed to strong sales in the first quarter as well."
Preston Gralla notes that it's not all bad news for Apple; this report could help their case in upcoming antitrust discussions.
Apple now sits in third place with 21 percent.
And even less worldwide with mobile phone sales - where the original innovators like Nokia dominate and Apple is far away from dominating the market. It's good to see theres some sense in the US too.
I think this same thing will happen to iPad too. It will sell good at first, Jobs will make the claims that they cannot manufacture enough products for everyone to build up the hype, and then it will quickly fall down and die.
That is how quick marketing works. Microsoft wouldn't had built the Windows brand if they just went for quick sales without thinking long term. There's a reason why Windows is still 95% desktop share, while Mac OSX is only 4%
I, for one, am shocked, that many products from several sources on various carriers have collectively outsold a single product available on a single carrier that doesn't even have the most market share. Utterly amazing, isn't it? /sarcasm
Or should that be iMpossible?
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Apple is getting ready to release a new iPhone in the next few months. I'm sure this kind of regular product cycle makes consumers not want to upgrade for the quarter before a new release. I know I'm going to skip the 3GS and wait for the "4" or whatever the new one is called.
-Bill
it only means people are buying more androids iphone is still the better phone tho...
Waiting for the next iPhone coming in a month which everyone knows about due to the leak.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Who's laughing now all you Apple fanbois! Oh yeah, Google's growth isn't sustainable. Sustain this , bitches!
(Sits back and waits for the karma burn.)
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
I for one have an iPhone and I cannot tell you how much I wish it were an Android. Hopefully, the 'Droid can come out with a version that beats Apple's 4G series that are approaching the market.
this report could help their case in upcoming antitrust discussions.
Or just as easily hurt it. As the report shows a big part of the sales was on Verizon network, which is a market Apple does not exist on. A large portion of those sales "might" have been for Apple's product had it be available on the Verizon network.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
Android phones are not as open as Maemo/MeeGo phones. Andoird could have been way cooler if Google have picked up Maemo instead of starting from scratch using Java. That said, I don't mind that all the mobile games targeted for Android should eventually run on Maemo.
(Random text inserted at the end of the message to allow mouse chicks on text in Shashdot's edit window on Safari)
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
but companies could face anti-trust action even if they don't own a monopoly over a product or service. (Confirm/Deny?) I am also smirking over the reaction of Apple supporters over this news. Previously, it was "we are the champions, no time for losers" now it is "hey, told you we're not evil because we are the underdogs, support the underdogs!" Not trolling by the way.
Support remote desktop? I work in an enterprise environment and have found the feature very useful when away from my desk. When I'm on the production floor troubleshooting an issue and need to do a novell password reset; I just unlock my phone, enable remote desktop connection, log into my work machine and reset the password without ever having to leave the machine i'm trouble shooting. This saves me time; otherwise I would have to walk back to my terminal just to reset a password and then walk back to the client machine and continue troubleshooting. Any takers?
Of all the things I've lost; I miss my mind the most. - Mark Twain
I'm curious to see what effect this will have on the app markets. Like, will more people start developing for Android now because of the increased market share? Will that increase the Android market size to the point that it can catch up to the head start the iPhone had? Will that have any effect on the iTunes policies?
Perhaps not, but it's something to think about.
So Apple having 20% of the market and being behind RIM and Android is different from an antitrust perspective than Apple having 20% of the market behind RIM and a bunch of other companies that share an OS? Do the people making these comments even think they make any sense? Apple can argue it isn't dominant if it's #3 for phones sold with a given OS (having little to do with the markets that define antitrust law) and it can't argue it isn't dominant if it is #2 in the market for smartphone sales? Insanity!
Great news for developers... Let iDevices fade into oblivion with their closed operating system and their watchdog policy on App Store. Though nothing is as open as Maemo. HTC hardware running maemo, now that would be one kick ass phone.
Apple is committed to making the same mistakes it made in the 80's. It amazes me how they think they can break the natural laws of the market and make their business model work. In five years the iPhone's market share will pale in comparison to Android and it will be for the sole reason that Apple cares more about its vision than its customers. Android is the Windows of the mobile world.
or else!
There's been anecdotal evidence that there isn't as much money to be made writing Android apps as there is to be made writing iPhone apps.
One theory has gone "that's because the user base isn't there yet; when the users show up, the developers will come".
Well. It looks like the users are showing up in numbers that are becoming difficult to ignore. So now it's time to keep a close eye on app developers, and see what happens! Is Android more like the XBox 360 (where a lot of third-party developers make a lot of money), or more like the Wii (where almost nobody but Nintendo ends up making much money)?
It's all going to be very interesting to watch. Yay competition!
It exceeded iPhone sales, not iPhone OS, as iPhone OS includes the iPod Touch and iPad. The sales of the iPod Touch are far from insubstantial.
Meanwhile, iPhone sales are down because new ones are due in June, as they have been the last three years. People know this (and if they don't, they ask a geek friend who does), and sales drop. Just watch, they'll skyrocket in June/July, just as they have the last couple years.
I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.
We can only hope.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
Android is the Windows of the mobile world.
YOU TAKE THAT BACK!
Or that the iPhone is an inferior product in the Enterprise market. Or that people don't like dealing with the AT&T network. There could be a million different reasons for this.
My Sysadmin Blog
Android is the Windows of the mobile world.
Really? Windows? Are you sure? I don't recall paying $200 for my Andriod 2.1 OS license.
.. because I have OVPN in my home and my iPod Touch is a no go / f*ck you on OpenVPN even if jailbroken.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Yup, just like the failure of the iPod that idiots predicted was inevitable for years. Now they've moved on to the iPhone - great, more shlock.
That said, Android is a far better alternative model than the iPod competitors were, but dragging out the tired, old, and inaccurate "Mac vs PC in the 80's" model is just tiresome and worthless. There are so many variances (probably the biggest being price - the iPhone isn't more expensive than its competitors) that it's just a stupid comparison to make, generally only made by PC trolls.
I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.
...the year of Linux on the desktop, uh I mean phone.
"We live in a global world" - Harvey Pitt, former Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman
It's going to crash a lot and get a lot of viruses? /duck
Verizon's droid does porn advertising campaign is what really hooked me into my purchase. If Jobs hadn't pointed it out to me I probably would have just bought an iPhone.
They have their work cut out for them. I understand the model they want, it's close to the model used by game console manufacturers to ensure quality on their consoles and also to reap the rewards of complete control. But what I've never heard of is a restriction on using a particular language that compiles to a native format using a published API. They're gonna have a hard time selling that one as something that offers value to the customer given they already have a fairly intense filtering process for their app store. Even console manufacturers don't dictate what code you compile in, as long as it compiles to a proper native image and meets all the checks and balances.
Hardly. If Apple licenced the iPhone OS to OEMs I'm sure there would be loads more phones around.
Android phones are available in lots of different form factors, some people insist on hardware keyboards.
yes, being more open will always result in more sales. That's how Linux was able to surpass Windows so quickly.
hahahahaha, what?
you think apple will ever license the iphone os? are you joking? Maybe you are wondering what the psystar case is about, for example?
Mac by design basically will never license anything mac to non apple products. That's both a flaw and a feature.
meanwhile, it shows something more significant: apple interest is not raising anywhere near the interest that android is and has now.
Where the FUCK did you come up with that garbage?
From watching NPD numbers, paying attention to the gaming industry press, stuff like that.
Did you follow how "Dead Space Extraction" did on the Wii compared to "Dead Space" on the XB360?
Heck, just compare this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#Wii
to this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#Xbox_360
and this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#PlayStation_3
How many non-Nintendo titles on the Wii list? How many different companies are represented? How many non-Microsoft titles on the XB360 list? How many different companies are represented? What about the PS3 list?
Presumably you find fault with the argument. I'd be more than happy to look at any data you've got that contradicts it, hints at other explanations for the same data, whatever. Got a handy cite?
Verizon fanboys should stop trotting out this dead horse. AT&T and T-mobile are the only major mobile phone carriers in the U.S. that support GSM. Almost all non-GSM phones become useless bricks outside the U.S., kinda pointless if you travel.
I hear talk about how T-mobile's coverage is even weaker than AT&T's, but honestly it's fine for places you'd ever make a phone call, like any town that has an airport. AT&T and T-mobile's higher end phones all inherently offer world wide coverage, plus you can always just drop a local sim into your GSM phone.
I'm sure some people are inexperienced enough with the wilderness that enough extra coverage might save their life while hiking, but I personally know how one uses an old fashioned map and compass, and I like being offline when hiking.. and I kinda doubt Verizon's coverage is *that* great. ;) In fact, I've only ever used my mobile phone's data plan while hiking in Europe.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
The final comment of the summary indicates it might help Apple with its antitrust inquiry.
I think people misunderstand that 'antitrust' law really is another name for 'competition' law, and that any anti-competitive behavior may be regulated whether there is a monopoly or not.
http://blog.slaingod.com
As far as I can tell, there are about 5 flavours of Android (1.5, 1.6, 2.1 etc), and your ability to switch between them depends entirely on your network operator. I'm not even sure whether apps are compatible across all the flavours?
I suspect that Android will end up with a similar rep to Windows - too many hardware platforms and compatibility issues.
I simply call bullshit.
I've seen one Android phone in the last month ... owned by a Google employee.
I can't count the number of iPhones I've seen in the last 2 days.
The fact that I myself have been waitting since January to replaces my 3G with a broken screen for the new one that will be here in a month or so probably has a little to do with it too.
Warping statistics to suit your agenda isn't impressive.
Narrow the scope enough and pick the right time period and you can show just about any product beating out any other product.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
It has amongst educated consumers i.e. server admins, researchers, and the top500.
Also, the Android platform is based on Java running on Linux. Where were the wince phones on this list again?
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
The leaked iPhone 4G looks like Apple is just trying to catch up with the Nexus One, and not even succeeding at that. People who already have iPhones will go for it, for others, it won't make a big difference.
Or just as easily hurt it. As the report shows a big part of the sales was on Verizon network, which is a market Apple does not exist on.
So to summarize what you are saying, is that because Apple is only only a single network instead of several, that makes it MORE LIKLEY they will be found to be violating antitrust because they are LESS ubiquitous than they might be?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Hey, dipshit, how about some fake Xbox fanboy sales numbers from vgchartz.com while your'e at it?
Apple has released an updated iPhone model every summer for the past 3 years. The recent leak was all over the prime time news, morning talk shows, everywhere. Even Joe Smo knows that a new model is coming out in a month. There is likely a dramatic drop off in iPhone sales after the leak announcement, which tanked the quarter sales.
The only fanboys around are the ones who point out everything terrible about the iPhone/iPad every time it is discussed.
... How many different models of phones run Android? How many different models run Apple OS.
All this proves is we're finally in an age where cell phone development has a handful of REALLY good platforms to develop for.
Now the lazy providers need to catch up in services and prices.
> yes, being more open will always result in more sales. That's how Linux was able to surpass Windows so quickly.
Windows had a 10+ year head start on Linux.
OTOH, MS-DOS was more open than Macintosh and dominated it in a humiliating fashion.
You had an entire industry versus one company.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
They didn't make mistakes in the 80s, they made mistakes in the late 80's through most of the 90's... you know, when Job's WASNT THERE LEADING THE WAY.
Have you seen Apple's stock price, how much do they have in cash (billions)? And you say their business model does not work...
That's one perspective. But I think you're misreading Apple. Apple doesn't care, and has never cared, about being the largest vendor in any particular space. They only care about being the "best" -- where they get to define what "best" means. Remember when they launched the iPhone and they claimed to want 1% of the smartphone space, which at the time represented perhaps 10% of the mobile phone market? They achieved that goal and then some. Other vendors had to respond to Apple and what Apple was doing. They still are. So success for Apple is to have the lead in mindshare and to make money hand over fist. They're doing that without dominating the market and I suspect they will continue in spite of Android's sales win for this quarter.
If Apple ends up with a minority share of the market they won't care one bit as long as their share is the most profitable portion of that market.
I'm surprised this was modded troll - he's actually got a very good point.
He didn't say they should or would do that, just that if it happened, there would be devices with it everywhere. And he's right.
What he also doesn't say is that the device quality control would KILL the OS as people ran from it in droves when it was shoved down on sub par hardware and the apps that were designed for it made the device look sub standard.
I've held enough Android phones to realize it's mediocre, not because of the OS, because everyone is trying to capitalize on it instead of make it good.
Okay, so you'd rather stamp your feet and swear than participate in a conversation. Did you have a rough day, sweetie? I do hope tomorrow goes better for you.
I also hope you feel better after venting like that. But be aware that it gets boring to read pretty quickly.
Yup! In 6 months, Android has surpassed Apple's 3 year head start.
I drank what? -- Socrates
Or proof that being a new phone gets you attention. They don't tell you most andriod phones were sold last quarter. Once they are both six months old see what happens.
Google fanboys will buy android the minute it comes out same as apple fanboys will buy iPhones.
Rather like saying Windows sales exceed Mac Sales. One is an operating system that is used by a variety of vendors (Android/Windows) and the other is a complete solution offered by one vendor (Apple Macintosh/iPhone). Like with Windows, Android will never offer the smooth integration of hardware and software. Windows and Android are Kludges. Enjoy hacking them. For getting real work done I like a tool that works and lets me do my job.
Seriously, this is the first really good Apple and Google related news I remember since long ago.
But... the future refused to change.
Putting Blackberry aside, the headline to this article is actually... Apple individually sells more smart phones than most all other companies put together. :)
Are you suggesting that Apple's strategy should be more like Kaypro's in the '80's?
Or perhaps more like IBM?
Commodore?
Atari?
Coleco?
Compaq?
Packard Bell?
Apple's business strategy seems to work very well. They make a lot of money and they have stayed in business for 40+ years.
Name some companies that were designing, building, and selling personal computers successfully in the '80's and are still doing so today. Now, which of those should Apple imitate?
First android phone was released some time in 2008.
iPhone had a year head start.
1 Manufacturer 1 Phone/year
VS
multiple Manufacturer multiple phones/month.
it took them almost 2 years to catchup. That is surprisingly SLOW.
. . not in the article, press release, or NPD's site. At one time, it was the leader. Can anyone recall seeing anything else of Microsoft going from such a top position to nowhere (Bob doesn't count)?
Where is the damn, ooo shiny tag in slashdot when you need it?
CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
Best comment of the day! And right on!
Have to hand it to apple fanbois - they groupthink like no other group.
It's going to crash a lot and get a lot of viruses? /duck
Goose!
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
They also fail to mention that most of those Android phones were distributed by Verizon for free as an attempt to wrest away some of AT&T's iPhone advantage. If Apple ever starts allowing other U.S. carriers to offer the iPhone, I'll bet Android sales number will make a big u-turn in a hurry.
This ain't rocket surgery.
Actually, if Google goes ahead with implementing Flash in their browser, that's actually pretty likely...
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
The leak was last month. Sales have fallen off since Q4 2009...well before the leak started. Face it, the iPhone has fallen behind it's competitors.
My Sysadmin Blog
This all rather presumes that Apple simply wants to sell as many iPhones (or iPhoneOS devices) as possible.
Apple want to be No. 1 in the top 50 or 25% of the market. That's where the profit margins are.
You can now buy phones running Android for £100. The hardware sucks. The margins must be pretty thin.
That isn't a game Apple wants to be in.
The key to Apples success is selling aspirational products. Sure their hardware is more expensive, but it also *feels* more expensive.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Comment removed based on user account deletion
This is great news for both Apple and Android users. This is just the sort of news Apple needs to hear to make them tired of their single-carrier approach in the US. As with many AT&T users, their lack of supporting tethering on the iPhone and the inconsistent network coverage (although when it does work their 3G is MUCH faster than Verizon's) has made me long for another carrier to be available to iPhone users who don't want to jailbreak their iPhones. However we shouldn't forget that there are two MAJOR problems with Verizon on all their phones that make me not want to switch to Verizon even if they did have the iPhone: 1. Verizon's 3G network is NOT capable of voice and data at the same time. Once you're on the phone, all data connections are closed until you hang up. Not so great when you're trying to use maps and someone calls you, or while on the phone you try to find a nearby restaurant to meet the caller. As Verizon callers know, "I'll have to check that and call you back" is not an uncommon thing to say. In an age of Bluetooth headsets being the norm, we should be able to use our phone's data channel while we're on the phone. Verizon's 3G network is very 2G in this instance (and LTE, Verizon's 4G network will fix this but launch is not until mid-2011 at least) 2. Verizon only gives their 3G data users 5GB of use before they start levying HUGE overage charges (http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2010/04/30/family_provider_far_apart_over_nearly_18000_phone_bill/). I personally have no intention of going over 5GB but I also don't want to WORRY about a limit at all. Again, very backward thinking by Verizon here, reminiscent of Compuserve and AOL charging hourly for Internet access back in the 1980s. Charge a fair price for unlimited data (I think $30 is fair but let the market decide) and then you'll have a shot at my business. In short, I'd love to see Verizon get the iPhone but not in an exclusive deal, not with 5GB data caps, and not unless they can support data and voice at the same time on their 3G network (which has excellent coverage).
Is it any wonder that iPhone sales are falling behind Android sales?
1) There is more than one phone using the Android OS compared to the iPhone's offering of two storage options (Reaches more pockets)
2) In the US, most Android phones are on networks other than AT&T (Not the most favored of cellphone networks in the US)
3) There is a new iPhone due out in the next few months (anyone who's in the know will be holding off until June 17th?)
I'm not saying that the iPhone is better than the Droid, but now might not be the right time to be judging it's popularity
The difference is that a smart phone is basically an application platform like the PC. The iPOD is not, it's basically a souped up media player. And don't forget that although these kind of markets are highly volatile, it may take a long time before a relatively good product like the iPOD is taken over by its competitors.
What a hate filled post you wrote. Seek some counseling or something.
There is nothing fanatical about understanding statics that show one company has 21% of the revenue, while several other companies have to divide 28%...
In regards to user-base, its a significant difference if the product is paid for or given away. That's lost revenue. It effects the sharholders.
Apple's business strategy seems to work very well. They make a lot of money and they have stayed in business for 40+ years.
You're either incredibly bad at math or a time traveler.
Required reading for internet skeptics
I for one am glad to see that Google has finally made a userland for Linux that does away with the complicated X11, and the Gimp derived gtk toolkit. To a Linux userland that does not require the complicated X Windows and gtk!
This isn't an OS war. Microsoft got/gets paid for each and every computer that gets shipped out. I'm not sure Google is in such a position to demand/get such a royalty. OTOH, Apple gets $$$ for ever iPhone shipped.
Also, desktop is upgradeable (generally) and you want to want multiple parts from multiple companies in multiple variations playing with each other nicely, perhaps with a driver install.
A phone, otoh, is an appliance. No added ram, nothing. It gets upgraded every 2 years by most people. The experience of the hardware/software will be pinned on the maker. Apple offering the iPhone OS to other makers will give away Apple's edge for little added benefit and lots of aggravation ensuring backwards compatibility and that apps work on a slew of phones.
This is not the PC war. The best things Apple can do is wholly outside of licensing out iPhone OS and that is offering the phone unlocked and on multiple carriers. This other shit is irrelevant.
Since when is "buy one, get one free - but you still need to sign them both up to a multi-year contract" free? Just like those $100 iPhones aren't really $100 once you look at the contract.
Check out the Evo 4g and try to say that with a straight face - it's kit like that which will kill both the iPhone and iPad. Bigger, easier-to-read display than the upcoming iPhone 4g, much more portable than an iPad ... it's the face of the next generation of smartphone computing devices that people will actually be able to type on half-way decently.
Why is AT&T astroturfing here?
Da Blog
Just because the TV ads say you can do everything doesn't mean you have to do anything.
Some phone like Palm Pre are designed so their software (Synergy, in WebOs) counts on cloud-based storage to import your contacts. It's designed to work this way. And if you don't want to, then the only alternative to Google/Facebook/LinkedIn/etc. is to manually type-in everyone of your contacts.
(And as its an US-American company, their Bluetooth is crippled and doesn't support a decent Obex, so no "just copy the whole address book over BT" like with Ericsson/Nokia/etc.)
(And for some reason, Palm decided to drop BlueZ and use some weird proprietary Bluetooth stack. Thus no decent 3rd party homebrew BT support either).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Cos, y'know... what's the point in buying one if you've already got one?
j'ai découvert une démonstration vraiment admirable (de ce théorème général) que cette si
I keep hearing this from Apple Fan Boys. "Apple does not want to be the dominent player". This is typical Apple style, tell people the exact opposite of what your really doing. There is good reason not to be to dominent, (DOJ anti-trust issues that Apple are defiantly breaking and would be in trouble for if considered a monopoly)
But looking at their online audio and video moves. They defiantly want to be as big as they can be without triggering anti-trust. Thats is what they are DOING. And if you have any brains, you listen to what people DO before what they say. (Usually what they say is the opposite to what they do. A big reason Google has so much trust. They have been aligning with what they say and do.. well most of the time and in the sight of consumers..)
Dominance of the media gateway is dominance of the media platform. Apples knows this..
I personally think there should be government laws that say you cannot own the gateway and the media platform and the companies have to be independent. Open competition using open standards.
Its like most countries in that the Telco owns the back haul and the retail. History of abuse and inflated prices. The UK forced their telco apart to break this strangle hold. Here in Australia, the government is in a death match with Telstra.. trying to break this model..
Its just bad for consumers. No company or individual should have or even need this responsibility.
I dunno where the definition of everywhere is, but Sprint is second only to Verizon in New York city coverage. Maintained Internet radio streaming without any trouble all the way on a drive between NYC and Boston.
Furthermore, all modern Sprint plans come with free roaming, which means you effectively get Sprint + Verizon's coverage.
I haven't had any problems with Sprint coverage.
I worry that heavy Android adoption will limit innovation on phones. If the OS is the same then you can only compete on hardware, and you can't innovate because the OS doesnt facilitate the new bit of hardware you've added.
Also on my doid there are some fundamental flaws. like no ability to kill applications that are killing you download limit like email applications e.t.c (I know you can get this facility 3rd party)
Your larger point is correct, but a correction -- they originally said they wanted to capture 1% of the overall mobile market, or 10 million phones of the 100 million expected to sell in 2008. They didn't target the smartphone segment in particular.
They sold 13.7 million phones in 2008.
Maemo/MeeGo seems awesome, but I think it's just a sad case of too little, too late.
There's only one phone that runs Maemo, the Nokia N900, and none that run its successor MeeGo. Nokia's recently announced new flagship phones are all running Symbian.
I really like the concept of a truly open OS on a smartphone, but I haven't even ever seen one in person.
At this point I'd rather take and lend my support to something that is 80% as good (Android arguably) that actually has a shot at success in the marketplace rather than hold out for something perfect that is way too late to the party.
There has already been remote hacks on Android devices - same goes for iPhones. No one is safe from this kind of stuff. Although, I'm interested in knowing exactly what Google plans to do with ChromeOS. They're touting its security. Show me the chickens.
welcome our android overlord.
If enithin kan gow rong it whil. (Murfey)
You mean the "mistake" that they make more money selling phones than almost any other company in the world? You're retarded.
When comparing Apples and Oranges, it's all fruit.
Android is an operating system that runs on multiple devices. iPhone OS is an operating system that runs on multiple devices. So why are they comparing Android on all devices to one device running iPhone OS?
Include iPod touch and iPad sales and Android is not outselling iPhone OS.
IMO the iPod will eventually lose market share. The mid/higher end models will be replaced by smartphones. They low end models will not be enough to justify the investment into R&D. The iTunes store on the other hand...
Considering the way they've been giving away 2 phones for the price of one, this isn't a useful measure. How about comparing how many actual sales were made?
Market share has absolutely nothing to do with vertical monopolies, which is what Apple has. That's where you control each step of production along the way. Apple doesn't have a total vertical monopoly, since they don't make the individual components, but they've got a stranglehold on the consumer's end, and that's what they should be nailed on if an anti-monopoly investigation goes through.
Canada: The US's more awesome sibling.
Google gets a "royalty" from Android in form of 1) ad views in Android apps, and 2) new users for GMail, Picasa, Buzz etc, which means more personal data for mining.
I own a work BB Curve and a personal Android phone. I'm also a BES admin. The only thing I can see that Blackberry's have going for them is decent admin control on the BES (remote wipe etc) and good reliable email push, most of which you can get on other devices pretty well with a few apps. By any other measure the Android phone and iPhones totally outclass them. Android has many more apps, BB apps tend to be more expensive and very dully business orientated (financial tickers etc).
The newer BB next gen devices aren't very exciting and the Storm 2 is especially poor. I'd say the BB is a (very) good business email device and that's about it. They were very late to the 3G show, they still sell curves etc without 3G which to me looks very penny pinching and crappy now.
So who's making RIM number one, it surely can't be all just business sales. I wouldn't thank you for one as a personal device, but you do see it. Do people just like the full keyboards for social networking or something?
Or will this RIM advantage disappear as the market for smartphone grows overall and dwarfs the business sales that have put RIM where they are?
Perhaps because almost all Android devices are currently phones like the iPhone, and not like the iPod touch or the iPad.
I have a router that runs a version of Linux just as the Android devices do. Should it be counted too?
So does that mean we now have a another clear leader in the smart phone market? Or are people including yourself going to continue to measure other smart phones to the iPhone?
To me as long as everyone is comparing their wares to the iPhone, the iPhone is still the one to beat...
Apple will start worrying when people no longer feel the need to measure up to the iPhone or better yet when iPhone versus some other phone no longer generate large number of web traffic.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
On the other hand the boomers are getting older and their eyesight is getting weaker, so expect to see a lot of growth in geezer-phones like jitterbug.
So I'd say the predictions of the death of non-smartphones is greatly exaggerated.
Good thing every consumer is educated.
Didn't Apple just report Q1 2010 as their best quarter ever. with x million Iphones sold? Now the results in the article are for Q1 2010, which means Android outsold Apple during its best quarter ever. This is not just in the states, in Europe Android has always been strong, in Australia every telco now carries an Android phone and the Desire (on Telstra) is selling well. In China there are over a dozen handsets running Android.
I expect the Q2 results to follow the Q1 results, especially as business look at June to get rid of old assets and buy new ones (last ditch depreciation/tax benifits) but then again Apple is a consumer electronics company and not really a part of this market. Q3 when the predictable Iphone 4 is released is when Iphone sales will pick up, Android sales will not drop off so much as Android tends to be taking market share from everyone (WinMo, RIM, Iphone and Nokia).
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
just as the ipad has doomed the netbook.
Perhaps you've heard of the Android marketplace.
It's not locked down like the Itunes store. You can browse it here, here and here. Androlib even has QR codes that you can scan with your Android phone that will take you directly to application in the Android Marketplace.
Because no phishing applications made it past the ever watchful censors at Apple?
NoThankYou.jpg to gateway only security. I'd rather have on-device security which informs me which services (API's, but in simple terms like "can send SMS", "accesses your contacts/personal data" or "can write and delete from the SD card"). Even third party APK's do this (because it's part of Android, not the thrid party software).
So stop spreading FUD and others stop modding up FUD.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Mixing...
Android is to Apple as Windows is to Apple. Apple will end up with a similar market share.
> Where were the wince phones on this list again?
They would have been near the top, except just about everyone who owned a WinMo5/6 phone 2 years ago now owns an Android phone. Legacy PalmOS faded away over the span of 5 years in a slow, dignified sunset. Windows Mobile, by comparison, symbolically committed mass suicide and practically vanished from the earth overnight. The last straw was Microsoft's treatment of Touch HD owners -- thanking them for their loyalty and support by telling them they wouldn't be allowed to have the next version of Windows because their phones had two buttons too many. They could hardly have driven more of their last supporters away by paying HTC to port Android to the Touch HD and emailing the download URL to buyers. As it stands, by the end of this year, the Touch HD will have the honor of being one of the finest Android phones you can buy today ;-)
Ahem, these are for Q1 2010. Didn't apple just state that Q1 2010 was its best quarter ever?
You cant have it both ways, either Android outsold Apple whilst it was doing well or Apple is lying.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Windows had a 10+ year head start on Linux.
OTOH, MS-DOS was more open than Macintosh and dominated it in a humiliating fashion.
You had an entire industry versus one company.
But including CP/M, of which it was a mere copy, it had a 10+ year head start.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
...in the mobile OS space anymore. They don't really have a dog in the fight right now. I've used WM6.5, and it is awful. I think it is actually worse for them having tried to ape some iPhone features.
They are already basically relegated to the sliver of the mobile OS marketshare pie chart labeled "Other." By the time they get WM7 into devices and on store shelves, Apple will have iPhone OS 4 out and be working on improving it, and Google isn't standing still with Android, either. Microsoft is going to be playing an endless game of catch-up, and they can't use their old tactics anymore to chase their competitors out of the market. Windows Mobile now has to compete on merit alone.
They laughed at the iPhone and basically ignored Android, let their own product languish, and now they're paying the price.
~Philly
The leak was last month. Sales have fallen off since Q4 2009...well before the leak started. Face it, the iPhone has fallen behind it's competitors.
no no that cant be true. it just cant be. here - drink some of this...
This seemed like a reasonable sig at the time.
No virus issues yet (that I know of).
Crashes... most certainly. Several a day, but thankfully not system-wide.
Bugs aplenty spread across apps.
Feels a lot like the early days of Windows, actually.
Time to "unroot" your phone I think.
If your apps are crashing every day, use different apps. The rating system is there to be used...use it.
would you rather Google implemented Android Market the Apple way? it'd certainly improve the quality of the apps...but at the cost of your (and developer's) freedom...you cant have it both ways. the rating system should suffice for most of us...
This seemed like a reasonable sig at the time.
Almost all OS X systems are sold in aluminum enclosures. Are you suggesting that when comparing OS X to Windows, we should only count the number of Windows systems sold in aluminum cases?
Platform numbers are interesting because they give some idea about how large the market is for third-party development. Last time I checked, the iPhone SDK does not even allow access to the phone equipment found in the iPhone. Therefore, developers certainly do not care if the host system is a phone any more than Windows developers care that the host system is made of aluminum.
No. Not because it is not a phone, but because it does not run Android. Both the N900 and the Pre run Linux as well, but they were not considered Android devices in this survey.
If you are actually running Android and capable of running software designed for the Android on your router, then yes, it should be counted.
the ipad just sold a million in a month. That's more than the adoption rate of the iphone it's first moth. It seems pretty plausible this cannibalized a lot of iphone sales.
Android is the Windows of the mobile world.
You mean they want an Apple but it costs too much money :)
You raise a good point, but I don't think that Apple's flat stock price of the 90s is simply because they failed to license their OS a decade earlier. Besides, recently, Apple's closed model has spanked MS's open model. Look at the 10-year chart... if you had bough MS 10 years ago - well, at least you wouldn't have lost any money. Apple would have returned 20x your money.
But anyway, what is it they say about past results not indicating future performance :)
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
I cannot believe that you're the only post I see mentioning the Sprint HTC Evo 4G. That phone is gonna be the true meaning of incredible!
And Sprint already has 32 cities lit with 4G, with a LOT more coming on hot and heavy. But the phone will be awesome even with only 3G.
The next month is gonna be fun.
I use Windows...I guess I'm not an educated consumer (throws away Masters in CS)
You do realize that the upcoming iPhone OS update doesn't add multitasking, right?
A mathematician and a physicist agree to a psychological experiment.
The mathematician is put in a chair in a large empty room and a
beautiful naked woman is placed on a bed at the other end of the room.
The psychologist explains, "You are to remain in your chair. Every
five minutes, I will move your chair to a position halfway between its
current location and the woman on the bed." The mathematician looks
at the psychologist in disgust. "What? I'm not going to go through
this. You know I'll never reach the bed!" And he gets up and storms
out. The psychologist makes a note on his clipboard and ushers the
physicist in. He explains the situation, and the physicist's eyes
light up and he starts drooling. The psychologist is a bit confused.
"Don't you realize that you'll never reach her?" The physicist smiles
and replied, "Of course! But I'll get close enough for all practical
purposes!"
Go back and look at the complaints about lack of multitasking, and what people would run.
Pretty much, Pandora and some kind of chat.
No consumer is going to understand the nuance of what multitasking is allowed. They are just going to know they can listen to Pandora, or go between apps more quickly.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
similarly the overwhelming majority of the world's population does not have a degree in industrial design.
The whole point of really good industrial design is that the user does not HVAE to understand how something is designed - it's intuitive to use.
Just like I don't need to know how to service a jet engine to fly across the ocean.
People understand good design instinctively. That's why good design is as much art as science, because to do it right you have to understand what makes humans tick.
History has shown that devices the rest only on marketing are fads that don't last. People move on. The fact is Apple has a lot of products now where people have not moved on, and the user base is growing substantially. To claim that's not because of design is at this point willful ignorance - the inability to learn because you are trying hard to keep your preconceptions intact as long as possible.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
they destroyed windows in the server world. its a different ballgame in the desktop world being the avg joe cares less what hes running as long as it does everything he whats it to do. if you have him a linux box he would use it until it didn't do something he wanted it to do or didn't run his favorite app/game. and thats where the problem lies. wile in 90% of the cases linux has its own style of the app he whats its not the one he wanted. and well for games thats due to devs glued to directx rather then using opengl.
OK, so Android and iPhone are battling it out with their swish special effects laden smart phones but i have a question, do they need an always on net connection to be any use? Some of us have internet at home and work and a wifi enabled phone for some of the times in between and can manage a bus/train ride without having to check myface and dont see the need to fork over a monthly fee just to use our phone. I'm not trying to sound like a grumpy old man, i happily tweet via sms but if i dont want to use the net connection for anything in particular then i turn it off. actually i turn it on, check email, weather, news, twitter, turn it off. I'm happy for the connect/disconnect to be transparent but i dont want it sat there constantly updating a weather applet and checking everyone's facebook status while i'm asleep.
If you don't risk failure you don't risk success.
It's going to crash a lot and get a lot of viruses? /duck
No viruses that I know of, but the stability of my Milestone is a bit disappointing. It's completely awesome in every other respect, but stability is definitely an issue.
It doesn't crash every day or even every week, but I've had one day where it kept crashing dozens of times in a row, and I was completely unable to use it. The next day everything was fine again.
Forgive me if I'm wrong ... but companies could face anti-trust action even if they don't own a monopoly over a product or service. (Confirm/Deny?)
ACK
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
I'd say the Java security infrastructure sounds like the most legitimate reason, well Maemo can't even keep applications off / in /opt. :( I don't buy the programmer supply issue however.
I'd imagine that developing from the ground up forces real development, while Nokia has clearly expected unrealistic help from the Maemo community, but they would not have taken that approach.
Ideally, we'll eventually get a solid MeeGo phone that runs all the open source software, while also providing an Android JIT, API, etc. for small applications.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
Sprint has an HTC Android phone too called the HTC Hero. So does Verizon with the HTC Droid Eris. alpine white teeth whitening
I don't understand all the people that want one platform to be the other one's 'killer'. I dont want one platform to kill the other, no matter what the platform is... The market is probably large enough to support 3 or 4 (maybe even 5) large platforms.
My (non-expert) opinion is that:
- there's still some headroom for Apple (after the 5 year exclusive)
- there's some headroom for Android.
- HP's (supposed) commitment to WebOS can also make for some very interesting devices
- Symbian will probably become less important, unless Nokia changes it considerably
- I don't know what to think of Windows Phone 7, but it might be too little too late
- Maemo and Co will remain a niche platform for some time, either to wither away or grow to 5 - 10%
I would really like Apple, Android and WebOS to continue competing for market share in the coming years, since that will get us more features (or better implementations of current features), and more choice, which is rarely a bad thing...
What you are about to see in the comments to this story:
- ”explanations”
- excuses
- denial
- hate
- ignorance
- delusions
Then when they get some point right, cue the:
- counter-”explanations”
- counter-excuses
- counter-denial
- counter-hate
- counter-ignorance
- counter-delusions
Oh, and: ;)
- a lot of fun for the whole family!
Basically you can mod every comment “Troll” or “Flamebait”, and always be right. ;)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
For most people, the lack of flash is a blessing and not a curse.
I am not alone when I consider flash to be the most annoying aspect of the whole web browsing experience.
or at least it seems..
Rather than stylish and in-the-know people buying iPhones plumbers, social workers and truck drivers have iPhones here. This is due to the offerings by telcos such that iPhones are practically free with a fairly tenable contract. iPhones are becoming not just middle-class but traversing further down the so-called classes. A few of my very self-conscious dyed-in-the-wool Mac using friends (France, Germany, Austria) have mentioned a desire to escape this ubiquity, in their lifelong quest for edginess.
Here the uniformity of iPhones, the sheer lack of definition in their outward appearance has become a problem. Differentiation - in the quest for affirming individual identity - is much easier with other brands. The Android market will start making a lot of sense to the snobbish and the trend-setters. The Apple brand is less and less the 'BMW' or 'Mercedes' within the market.
...because it's definitive proof that they're maintaining their elitist minority status and still capable of sneering down their noses at the rest of the great unwashed masses.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
I'm under the impression that that the current slate of Flash 10 based attacks may not *compromise* the Android browser, given the binary incompatibility between Windows and Android, however, I'm still imagining it's going to crash still.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
So all the Android OS devices combined (how many are there now, a dozen or so?) sold more phones than the one phone that runs iPhone OS, which pretty much everyone that wants one already has it, in the quarter right before a new model is coming out. This is news? Wake me up when something relevant happens, like a single device getting anywhere near the market penetration as the iPhone. I have a feeling I will be sleeping for a loooooooooooooooooong time.
Android is an operating system / mobile platform. An iphone is... a phone. This reeks of fanboyism to me. A slew of phones outsold a single phone, but that's really exciting because they all have the same OS! That's like saying IOS outsold a specific series of Juniper, or Redhat outsold a Dell 2950.
Linux has become a great server OS, basically replacing the traditional offerings like HP-UX, IRIX, Solaris, VMS and others to a large extent.
It hasn't yet shown to be a credible contender in the Desktop arena. We've been hearing that this year is the year of Linux on the Desktop for over 10 years now.
There are plenty of reasons which I will not enumerate here now.
RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
I wasn't in the market for a smartphone until I saw the specs on the Evo 4g. This is really a game-changer. a 4.3" screen is going to make so many baby boomers go "I don't need bi-fuck-alls to see this!".
For the video crowd, being able to shoot in 720p from a smartphone is going to float their boat. The HDMI out is another "don't need a laptop to transfer the files to watch on the big screen" changer.
People are going to latch on these, shove big micro-sd cards into them, and ditch their net-tops. Why tether your laptop when you can carry everything you need in a pocket or purse?
Our company is in the process of telling everyone that we will be dropping AT&T. We simply can't afford international travel, at least not with an iPhone. When you call them they seem smug in their prices, almost like "Well, what do you expect. You have an iPhone, paying ridiculous amounts of money is part of the deal".
Quotes for Android phones from Sprint and Verizon range from 1/5th to 1/4th of the AT&T costs for the same phones but with unlimited data. Eventually the 'new' wears off everything and you have to evaluate what it is really costing you.
Actually if you think about it, Windows is open in the same way that Android is as far as applications go, where the iPhone is closed.
That is to say, I can install any software I want on my Android phone (one checkbox in the settings to turn off 'android market only'), and any software I want on a Windows machine too. This ability to run random crapware as well as freely available good software helped propel Windows, along with a fairly complete API. To annoy my fellow Linux geeks, Android is more like Windows in that regard :)
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
The grapes are never ripe in Apple's vine.
That worked wonders before the comeback of Jobs.
Make no mistake, when Jobs is not there Apple will lose the little vision they have just to be brought down by the obvious inadequacies of their offerings.
Some people (aka fanboys) are so brainwashed that they think this is a good thing, worth crowing about....
The Evo 4g may stall a bit with that nine hundred dollar bump .
Crashes... most certainly. Several a day, but thankfully not system-wide.
interesting. my nexus one is up for weeks. there is some bug that causes the touch screen to go haywire every so often. that's the only problem i've had.
to be fair, my wife's iphone 3g is up for 5x that long.
You hit the nail on the head, and I'm not even sure you noticed. That's the philosophical difference between the iphone and Android phones. One is much more open, with all the good and bad that comes with it...you can really get at the insides and bend it to your will, and write any sort of app you want, for better or worse. The price you pay for openness like that is the potential for huge instability, but the rating system will hopefully help with that over time. For some technically oriented people and some others, this trade is very worthwhile. The openness is worth those possible inconveniences, and we understand and accept it. I mean, it's not like the user experience is BAD or anything, it's just sometimes things don't work as perfectly as you'd like.
Meanwhile, you have the opposite approach, which is very much the Apple way of doing things. Very closed, very restricted from a developer's standpoint. The benefit of this approach is that the user experience is very controlled and streamlined. Not that they never experience crashes, but generally speaking, the overall experience is a lot more sanitized, clean, and consistent. Few crashes, familiar overall look and feel. It's "the Apple Way" or the highway, but you can see they try to make "the Apple Way" pretty darn nice, if not open.
When people ask me if they should get an iphone or something else, I tell them for most people, your 2 best bets are an Android phone and an iphone. The way they should decide is by thinking about what they expect out of their cell phone. If they only want a few apps they saw on TV and don't want to fuck with it too much and just want a really nice capable phone, then iphone. If they want to do all sorts of additional interesting things, they should definitely get an Android, but recognize that with those abilities comes complexity, and be sure you want a device like your cell phone to *be* that complex.
It all depends on what you want out of a phone, and it's different for everybody. I don't really get why people get so angry about it.
teeker
While the price hasn't been finalized, here's some info: http://www.phonedog.com/2010/05/07/htc-evo-4g-documentation-spotted-at-radio-shack/
$200 on contract, $600 cash. In other words, this puts it in line with other smartphones. (go check the price on an iPhone without a plan - if you can find one. Apple won't sell it to you without a contract in the US - in Canada the 16GS is $$700 without a contract, the 32GS is $800 without a contract - with a contract the 16GS is $199, the 32GS is $299). So expect the Evo 4g to be $200 - $300 with a contract.
I work for a fortune 50 company.
Iphone and blackberry are support platforms.
Android is not.
iPhone works great in our enterprise.
Do you guys really think Steve Jobs is concerned that Android sells MORE phones than the iPhone??? ... Have you seen Apple's market cap and profits lately?!?!
Windows still easily outsells OS X
Apple sells the WHOLE package; hardware, software, etc. Integration is the key.
At an earlier point it was possible to purchase an unsubsidised iPhone . The unsubsidised price was right in line with the Evo 4g's current price . I think I recall it being Seven Hundred bucks . If memory serves you could accept the iPhone deal , then drop the service for a penalty of around six hundred bucks . That brings it right up to eight , nine hundred dollar bump with your original costs (I think I am reasonably close to the correct amount) .
I hope Evo 4g is a great phone deal . I was responding to your optimism while contrasting that with the only price I could find for it . I am not speculating , or able to compare these products other than they seem comparable . More phone than I need , my wife is interested though .
Destroying? Really? Not according to this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/26/idc_q4_2009_servers/
Behind which competitor? All different Android phones? All models of Blackberry? Or all other smartphones put together? Apple has one product in the samrtphone space. Do you know how much it's competitors would kill to have 21% of the market with exactly one model of phone?
I'm not surprised. Verizon is bigger than AT&T. The cost of the phone itself does not really matter. VZW makes money hand over fist on the data plan. 30-45$ a month for something that may cost 10% of the cost to do, probably 1% given the amount of customers VZW has. I really don't think they care much about 250$ per person for a phone, as they get it back in the first 6 months of the contract. Not including things like minutes and text messages. So does Google? They make the same amount of money no matter what the phone costs. HTC? They get paid by VZW, they really care. Apple does, and why they care is they have 3 iphone OS products out there, two of which aren't smart phones, tho the one does have a cellular internet option. They're also exclusive with AT&T which buys them very little, except headache. So AT&T pays apple a bit more than VZW pays HTC, but since VZW sells more units, HTC likely gets more.
I honestly think if Apple really wants to "fix" this they need to emulate HTC and do two things, kill their exclusivity with AT&T and allow the devices to be sold as loss leaders, even more so than now.
You can look at one reason why the iPhone has the share it does is that until recently it was one of the least expensive units on the front end out there. Now there are others, and honestly I'd have been shocked if android wasn't outselling the iPhone for the above reasons.
Also, I don't think it's a matter of Apple allowing other carries in the US. It was originally a matter of AT&T not allowing them... Apple had to give AT&T exclusivity in order to get them to carry the iPhone. By all accounts that's over, but the real question is, can anyone else deal with Apple. Verizon and Apple have apparently had serious talks at least three times now, and so far, no iPhone on Verizon. The story as I hear it is that Verizon has been interested, at least in the past, and were willing to deal with Apple much as they dealt with every other vendor. Apple, on the other hand, wanted the same kind of special treatment, like profit sharing, they got from AT&T.
Going forward, though, I think it's more of a longshot. The fact is, Verizon is doing very nicely with Android now. But it's not just that... they can only offer so many phones that do basically the same thing before it's just not worth their carrying the phones. As they have in the past, Verizon likes to brand the models they carrry. It's not that big of a deal to most people.. the Verizon Droid is essentially just a CDMA2000 Motorola Milestone. But when you say "Droid", it's automatically Verizon. All their other Android phones are marketed under the "Droid" name.
Look at the Google Nexus One deal... supposedly, Verizon was set to carry the Nexus One. Only problem... that was going in with Google primary branding, not the secondary branding you get with the Droid (being a "Google Experience" phone, the Droid is just as untouched by Verizon as the N1 would have been, but the Google logo's on the back, it says "Motorola" and "Verizon" on the front). Put an iPhone into Verizon, and it's still an iPhone, still Apple branded, with maybe a tiny "Verizon" on the back. I'm not sure they want that.
And if you can't have Verizon, that's at least currently 30% of the smart phones sold in the USA, and growing much faster than AT&T. So Apple would have to tag both T-Mobile and Sprint for the same coverage. And really, are they interested? Would Apple do a special CDMA2000 + WiMax phone for Sprint... that's probably what they'll be requiring for their high-end phones, like the EVO 4G, from now on. Given that AT&T and Verizon are both going LTE at 700MHz, this is probably a non-starter for Apple. So that leaves T-Mobile. Well, they're already GSM/HSPA, just on different 3G channels. But they're also the smallest carrier.
-Dave Haynie