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Cheap ADSL Holds Up 802.11n Router Design
sholto writes "Ever wondered why you can't find the perfect 802.11n router? You know, the one with dual band, great range, USB print server and storage? Australian ISPs used to give away modem routers to consumers with expensive ADSL plans, but competition has forced them to drop the plans' prices so low they can't subsidize the boxes any more. D-Link Australia says R&D into N routers is now becalmed in a Catch-22."
DDWRT helps but the hardware on the market is just garbage. And it's NOT because it's made of commodity components, but because it's poorly engineered. Best example of this is the horrific power/thermal management on newer Linksys products. Ethernet _switch_ traffic alone is enough to make the whole system overheat and crash no matter what firmware you're running. A competent engineer could have made it work right for the same BOM. I used to make wireless devices and our biggest category of support problems was crappy wireless routers either spontaneously rebooting, or needing to be rebooted. I just can't believe we are still at the same state of reliability as the 802.11b days - actually it seems worse now.
PS I don't mean to pick on Linksys, it's just that they're the ones I'm most familiar with. Overall the fails seemed to be in proportion to market share although every one had its particular problems.
This is the most poorly blatant piece of propaganda I have seen in years!
Is it really the ISPs fault? Most people I know bought there own router and connected it to the modem supplied by their ISP. I'm still on my old Linksys WRT54G with Tomato on it because its the best thing out there. I'd buy a new 802.11n router in a heart beat if it supported gigabit lan and wan, dual band, external antenna(s), OpenWRT support, and a USB port or two would be nice but not really needed. I really don't think its to much to ask but last I looked no company makes one.
Wireless N router, or Wireless N modem? I hate those combo units.
Right now I'm using a SpeedTouch 516 modem. It has one ethernet port. It works well with my ADSL, and I can stick wireless routers, gigabit switches, etc. behind it.; I'm tired of ISPs trying to pack everything into those all-in-one units, usually in a poor fashion that requires bi-weekly rebooting.
P.S. Where did my AJAX comment box go? For some reason slashdot started loading new pages whenever I click on comments? Ugh...!
Agreed. I don't care in the slightest about any advanced features. What I want in a router.
* 802.11n (duh).
* 5+ Gigabit ports
* ADSL2+ Modem
* Reliable NAT, including basic UPnP port mapping
* Software that isn't entirely shit (I'm looking at YOU d-link).
I'm happy to pay $300+ for a reliable router, but it's damned hard to find one even at that price range. D-Links products are notoriously bad. The web interface for the last one I used would only work in IE6. (And specifically only IE6).
the perfect 802.11n router? You know, the one with dual band, great range, USB print server and storage?
It's called the Time Capsule. I own one, and it offers all that. What, exactly, was the question?
(oh yeah, maybe you don't like Apple for whatever reason. That's not the point. The point is that such a device does indeed exist, contrary to the claims of the author that it doesn't.)
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Sounds like a bunch of BS in the article. I don't live down under, but I would bet it would be a tough task to find speeds as fast as they say for the price they said. It sounds like a "poor me" tail. If a ISP finds doing business is sooooo hard, maybe they should close up shop?
I hear you.
Overheating is my biggest problem (D-Link in the roof-space).
Can anyone recommend a "thermally" reliable ADSL2+modem and/or Wireless N router (don't care if its one or two devices).
Alternatively, anyone got any ideas (or even better, out of the box solutions/something I can buy) that will keep devices cool in my roof space (I've recently been thinking of putting a wine fridge up there and sticking my devices in it).
"You know, the one with dual band, great range, USB print server and storage?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_Extreme#AirPort_Extreme_Base_Station
Dual band? Check.
Great range? Check (covers my house).
USB Print and storage? Check.
You're welcome.
I can't believe I wasted my time reading that dribble from D-Link.
In short, you can't buy the magical 802.11n router “because the market is not asking for it”.
Becalmed, seriously?
09-f9-11-02-9* (G^GCA_++{>. RV>>>>+++ NO CARRIER
Why in the world would you want an ADSL2+ modem (or any modem or media adapter other than ethernet or USB) built in to your router?
That's rather like wanting a boat trailer built in to your automobile. They work just fine as separate components, thank you, and putting them together will not foster competition or improve performance.
It's a little bit expensive at ~ $200, but you get what you pay for. It has great features for the price and is rock solid. Dual-band 802.11N, Gigabit Ethernet, IPv6, SNMP, bridging and routing modes, etc, etc. The only drawback is the proprietary GUI required to configure it (no web interface). This is a show stopper it if you do not have a Windows or OS X based computer at your disposal, but few people are in that situation.
The only reason to pass it up is if you're one of those weirdoes that immediately write off anything with an Apple logo.
Beyond a few rare anomalies, every other consumer router I've used in nearly a decade has been complete garbage, I'd sooner build a PC based Linux or BSD gateway over dealing with that nonsense.
Well in the case of my 350n I cut an opening in the top of the case to reveal the (totally encapsulated in plastic) shield / heat sink. Then mounted an 80mm fan on a little bracket 2 cm away. That solved the problem. But mine was in a well ventilated room temperature space - in an attic you're probably going to have problems in the summer no matter what. Maybe put your whole installation (I'm assuming you have more equipment) in an enclosure and use a bathroom exhaust fan to push cooler outdoor air through it. Or run in/out ducts into your living space (eg vent through the ceiling in a closet) if that's cooler.
The next time I hear someone say "it's in a Catch-22" I'm going to punch them in the face.
Because I currently have three boxes sitting in the corner of my living room taking up space, causing a cable mess, wasting electricity, and just generally being annoying.
Putting them all in the one device makes perfect sense for me, when they are all essentially components of the same system.
That's like saying "Why would I want an email client, twitter client, ipod, *and* telephone in the same device"
Yeah and on this front D-Link should learn to STFU after the GamerLink DGL-4500, their prized N router for which they screwed an initially solid firmware up so badly that in the end some groups of people simply couldn't leave it on for a few days without it locking up, but they refused to allow firmware downgrades to known-working versions. This went on for months, and months, and months. I don't know if they ever solved the problem. I gave up on my $150 investment and bought their competitors product and couldn't be happier.
http://www.google.com/search?q=dgl-4500+firmware+issues
@D-Link: Whaa whaa whaa. Maybe when you actually support your N router buyers I'll care to hear your complaints.
Check out AVM http://www.avm.de/en/Produkte/FRITZBox/index.html I have 7270 working just fine here in the US (ordered in Germany) with Verizon DSL. Built-in. SIP adapter. Has the ability for custom firmware (freetz.org) add-ons with proper firewall and other (dd-wrt-like) stuff. The 7390 model has gigabit but there is no custom firmware for it yet. HTH
I want the ADSL modem built in so I can run PPPoA with a 1500 octet MTU, instead of PPPoE which requires me to configure *all* my LAN clients with an MTU of 1492.
I've had shitty combo units but I'e also had shitty dedicated units too. I think that it's an issue of quality and being prepared to pay a bit of a price.
For me a combo unit gives you less points of failure, takes up less space and is easier to administer.
At the moment I have one of these and have been very happy with it.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Because it's a home, not a datacenter.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Since we're on the topic of Australians holding back the market...why are y'all hoarding the Four'N Twenty's, eh?
But it's not likely to happen. There are still too many methods of connecting to the internet (too many broadband even) to justify the cost of building in to a separate device.
If Dlink don't want to develop new routers, I'm sure their competitors will take up the slack.
There's a note to be made here. The article talks about a particular set of market circumstances ending in a particular outcome. However not all competitors are equal. For example if the "Microsoft" of routers decided to enter the market. One could afford to lose money in the short run in order to end up with a market lock by dint of competitors couldn't do the same and drop out.
Not in Australia there isn't. There's ADSL, and there's only one single ADSL standard (well, two if you consider ADSL/ADSL2+). and there's Cable. (and dialup modems/satellite if you want to be picky, and lets face it, who doesn't!). No one's really investing in cable anymore, since the infrastructure for ADSL already exists, and just requires exchange upgrades and back-haul upgrades, instead of in-street wiring of cable and back-haul upgrades.
That's several million homes in Australia who all get an adsl modem from their ISP, and if the isp recommends a wireless router/adsl modem, then they're pushing a path that allows them to invest in R&D on newer features. They all still offer the simple ADSL modem, but there's plenty of room for people with multiple computers (something a large fraction if not the majority of australian households now have) to warrant the availability and simplicity of a modem/router pre-configured by the ISP to just work when you plug it in.
It is much easier to manage 1 device than to have:
1. Modem.
2. router.
3. Switch.
4. AP.
5. Network Print Server.
Not having to walk people through bridging the modem, less cable/jacks to go bad so easier to troubleshoot.
Now. Lets think.
Why is it that no-one buys dlink equipment? because its notorious for being crappy, overpriced junk that does not work? And, if you're lucky enough to get a dlink that works, it will fuck up after 12 months, forcing you to buy another modem at your own expense.
Read: Consumers don't like the shitty useless bug ridden featureless pieces of crap dlink has pushed on us for so long. Now dlink is fealing the heat. And try to blame Australia because no-one buys their fucking shitty products any more?
Fuck off!
Disclaimer: I'm an Australian who bought dlink once, and never again.
Or more accurately, certain Slashdot 'editors' worship Australia, which is why you cannot go even a single day without seeing some piece of shit article about Australia, and usually more than one.
Remember when people used to bitch about of Slashdot's USA-centric flavour? That almost seems like the Good Old Days now.
So we are supposed to believe that AUSTRALIA is the primary motivator for Internet technology innovation??
19M Internet users in the whole country. That's about 2/3 of the Internet users in the state of California.
And even disregarding the completely obvious question of numbers, Australian Internet service is famous for the slowest, most expensive broadband ISPs in the world.
AND - even disregarding BOTH of those points, I bought a router about 9 months with "dual band, great range, USB print server and storage" - for about $150, which I consider to be a great deal for all of those features.
And... oh, nevermind. There is nothing left in this article to dispute...
Oh hell yeah. I would mod you up, but for some reason the moderation system just doesn't seem to be working for me tonight - I have mod points, but I try to mod and nothing happens. (Let me add that "cheap" often is equivalent to "overheats, crashes, drops connections, slow, etc"
Anyway, I agree entirely with what you are saying. The home router market is saturated and due for a buggy whip ugrade. I upgraded recently only because I wanted one that did network printer sharing, and it still does it poorly, even after reflashing the router with a custom system.
In the last six months I've installed a lot of of print server solutions for customers. That's been a cast iron bitch making them work with even some of the best printers on the market - and HP has been better than most, but forget most of the garbage cheap printers.
Customers want to have a router that does wifi and print serving and talks to anything laptop, windows, macs, etc. The first company that delivers that will make a killing.
Open call, for open standards ;-\
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
http://www.avm.de/en/Produkte/FRITZBox/FRITZ_Box_Fon_WLAN_7270/index.php
Best piece of electronics I've owned, bar none. Sip telephony, answering machine, nas, print server, fax, dsl modem, dect base station, wireless N 300 mbps with triple antennas, usb port for 3g modem fall back connectivity, vpn server, firewall, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some features here.
Runs linux, and hacker community has extended firmware to run p2p daemon for example.
Ever wondered why you can't find the perfect 802.11n router? You know, the one with dual band, great range, USB print server and storage?
Because you've got myopia and you're only looking at the D-Link range? D-Link hardware's ok, as far as cheap goes, but their tech support is the pits.
The big problem with wireless N gear is is that the vast majority of people don't *need* wireless N. The ISPs know it, so why would they try to sell it if it's not going to turn them a profit? Wireless G is reasonably fast for most applications.
Heck, I'm a fairly nerdy guy and *I* don't see why I need wireless N. None of my wireless gear supports it (PS3, Wii, iPod touch, cellphones, netbook... all b/g or bluetooth) and the only thing I'd care to have that kind of speed on (media storage) is handled by boring old (faster, secure) copper cable. The only other advantage to N is range... and I live in a condo; but how many people seriously need 200+ ft of wireless range in their house?
Wireless N is and always has been a solution looking for a problem. We'll start seeing better and more affordable N-spec gear when that problem decides to show up... and by then they'll probably be working on Wireless Q or something equally useless for consumers.
Personally, I blame the race to the bottom with RAM and flash, leading to the copious (mis)use of VxWorks. Especially when it comes to consumer routers, VxWorks doesn't.
I don't want a router. My linux box works quite well for that, thank you very much. However nobody sells a simultaneous dual-band, gigabit, 802.11n access point (at least not in an affordable, consumer-grade package). Instead I have to pay for crap that I don't want and that just makes things more complicated (I have to figure out how to turn stuff off, if it can even be turned off at all).
Also, internal antennas suck, especially for 5GHz. If I put my router/ap in a central closet that I have wired for ethernet and power, I'm lucky if I get 2 bars on 5GHz in my main usage area. Now instead of having my access point neatly tucked away I have to have it sitting out in a different room just so I can cover half of my house. And I don't even have that big of a house!
I got that from the ISP with the broadband. It worked for 1 week then problems started:
1. Connection from laptop through wifi to the desktop which uses cable to the modem causes the internet connection to drop. It resumes after few minutes of not using the LAN (192...) ips.
2. Problem 1 was solved by setting up a static route on the laptop to the desktop pc
3. After 2 weeks the wireless started acting up, not being able to connect reliably.
4. I put my old G router back and stuff works like it should again, without the static route.
After explaining all those points in detail to the tech on the Linksys live support chat he just disconnected from the chat. Offered wireshark traces to him too since it seemed like the firmware is bugged and there is no updates for it.
5. I read on linksys forums the router reset button doesn't work as it's incorrectly wired. Some kind of custom adapter not sold anywhere is needed to hook up to the serial port in order to properly reset it.
6. I also read that using UPNP for extended time can cause it to brick itself. Well I need upnp and was using it so maybe that caused the problems above.
why is this shit all fucked up and I get a new page every time I click on a thread. Turn that shit off!
The odd thing is, I already have the router that both you, and the article describe...
It has:
Simultaneous dual band
Ability to broadcast a guest network as well as my secured ones 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz ones
Gigabit ethernet switch
Range good enough to get from one corner of my house to the other far corner, and probably more.
USB print server
Ability to add storage
Ability to act as a backup server
Doesn't overhead
Hasn't crashed since it started running several months ago
Hasn't ever dropped a connection
Hasn't ever had compatibility issues with random 3rd party hardware/software
What is it? Oddly... it's an Airport Extreme
it's not gonna come from your isp for free ... but for $90 shipped, i just got the asus-rtn16 and installed dd-wrt. it's already doing all that and then some, ie. 2 usb2 drives, gbit ethernet, vlans, iptables and openvpn. i'd definitely recommend it.
That's just not true!
My girlfriend's brother's boss's uncle's secretary heard the local ISP's CEO say, and i quote: "it's going to be a cold day in hell before I'm forced to eat cheap caviare on two of my five private jets just so some damn user can get a better router."
Why would you want 3+ devices to have one ADSL bridge, one router, one switch, and one WAP (and a firewall, and a print server, and a NAS) when you could get all that in one single device?
It's like getting an SUV with a sunroof and a trailer hitch. Sure, the sports car, the convertible, the minivan, and the truck all exceed the SUV in some manner, but who cares? A single integrated device is much easier to manage, keep in the garage, and when you are in a place where you will be having an ADSL2+ modem no matter what, it makes sense to have it built in.
Learn to love Alaska
Reality strongly disagrees.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
I don't disagree with you. I have not yet tried the airport extreme, as I managed to resolve my major linksys problem by adding a fan. But I still have problems with Mac clients occasionally failing to reconnect when roaming and/or waking from sleep and I would hope that's not a problem if the APs are from the same vendor. Do you know if the guest mode would work in the case where another router (Cisco ASA) is doing NAT to the internet? It would be important that the guest network only be able to access public IPs and not the secured LAN, but I'm not clear in that case how it would know the difference if it's assuming a typical home network with a directly connected WAN. I would be surprised if it lets me assign the guest network to a VLAN that I define, but that would be ideal. In any case it's a feature I can live without - as I was saying, a reliable AP is the only must-have.
more often than not, when it comes to operating systems on just about any device (be that a standard pc, laptop, server or router) I've noticed that Linux users just inherently love and I mean, they REALLY love a thick set of cock n balls in the face.
For ADSL2+ (Annex M) I use the Linksys WAG-320N
Before moving to this ISP/router I've always used a Cisco 877 at home, and I liked it because it let me learn a little about the cisco config. If I wanted Annex M functionality I'd have to rebuy the Cisco 877 M K9 for it to work :(
The Linksys is a great little device, has a USB port for NAS. Responsive web GUI and it doesn't reboot itself each time a change is made to the config.
I sync at 19Mb down and 2.1Mb up, which is very good for my distance from the exchange and ADSL2+ technology.
Try TP-Link, their stuff works very well for me.
// MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
Everyone I knew back in Aus had their friendly neighbourhood geek (Or asked the IT guys at work) who would tell them who to sign up with and what plan to get. As part of this, they usually went out and bought a decent ADSL router instead of what came in the box. It was usually described as "What's in the box will get you going, but this is what you really want".
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I didn't know anyone who used the modem that came in the box (Except one or two business customers who had to as the modem was considered CPE by the provider)
Anyone else experience anything different?
Curiosity was framed; ignorance killed the cat. -- Author unknown
You forgot the fact that Australian needs different boxes that have the buttons on the other side, you know everything is upside down at the other side of the word. You would think it would be easy to develop in Europe, and deploy in Australia, but it is easy to forget that all electrons are upside down at the other side of the world.
A simple mirror won't fix that either.
I hope your family died in that flood. And that your factory burns down.
If we want an all-in-one router with WLAN-N, Gbit-ethernet, VoIP, ISDN, POTS, DECT, answering machine, call-forwarding, fax, USB-printing and -storage, built-in DSL modem (can be bypassed) and 3G modem support, we buy a FRITZ!Box. These things just work.
I've gone through so many bad experiences with D-Link equipment over the years that I will never buy any equipment from D-Link ever again. I will go out of my way to get people I know to replace these craptacular pieces of shit every chance I get.
I've had D-Link PCMCIA cards, routers, modems, etc and every single one of them is an overheating piece of garbage. It's like no one in the company has ever heard of heat management.
OTOH, I set up an Airport Extreme Base Station at my parents' house last year. It has all of the features Sholto says you can't find (Dual band-N, great range, USB print and storage, etc) and does it without needing to be reset every ten fucking days. Care to venture a guess the uptime this AEBS, D-Link? 16 MONTHS. I'm usually pleasantly surprised when D-Link crap can make it 16 days without needing a reset.
I suppose I have to give the old Linksys WRT-54 units their props.
Actually, considering you're talking SUVs.... You're making exactly his point... :-)
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
That is one seriously neat piece of hardware which also belies the entire premises of this article. Clearly if you are willing to pay there is still good quality hardware out there.
This entire discussion seems so out of place on /. Its an Australian article about ISPs and home electronics. This is usually what I go to http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/
For the Americans reading, ADSL2+ is the predominant form of broadband in Australia. I get as fast as 21Mbps on ADSL2+ in Melbourne.
For the Australians, where I come from in America, ADSL-anything has not had good reputation of high bandwidth. We associate ADSL to 1.5 to 3Mbps, at least last time i was shopping for an ISP in Florida thats how it was. Cable broadband is faster in the US.
Maybe that will clear things up for those confused with some peoples responses.
I wonder how a standard router (commercial or OpenWRT) would work on their network.
Non-Linux Penguins ?
I agree with you completely. I use D-link. Works as it should.
And it costs 179 USD.
Rest of the world exists in reality and agrees with above.
I went through a steady stream of these - some with integrated DSL some without - Linksys, DLink, Netgear etc. They all had stability and speed issues or other niggly little things that required reboots and firmware updates. Finally I broke down and bought a Cisco 857W which is a real Cisco device running IOS including DSL, Wireless, Statefull Firewall and IPSEC VPN. I was studying for my CCNA so it was a good device to learn on and was how I justified the purchase to the Mrs.
It might cost AU$450 and have a pretty masstive learning curve to configure it properly but man is it solid and a great performer. It has an uptime currently of over six months with only 2 DSL activations (ie it has only had to reconnect to my ISP once in six months) and I do quite a bit of bittorrenting via wireless with hundreds of connections and with the firewall on getting over 16MBit/sec out of my ADSL2+ link.
There is a reason that you see them or their more expensive 877 cousins provided with the business links - because the telcos know they work and are stable as hell and will result in greater uptime and fewer support calls making the cost worth it.
Cisco may be overpriced, especially with it only being 802.11g, but you also get what you pay for. I'll never go back to the SOHO kit for my home.
Pardon me, I genuinely forgot that the context was Australia. What you say does make sense.
If the single device turns out to be bad at one of its functions it could be an expensive piece of junk. Separate WAPs are good for upgrading to from G to N for example. It's also good to have your modem down low near the phone line and the AP up high for good reception. An all-in-one item is good for less technical people, but if you're making demands on your network like any respectable Slashdotter, you want more control. And more devices are more fun :-)
I’m old enough to remember 16K of memory being described as “whopping”
I have no idea if the guest network works if you have a second router, I would assume that it wouldn't - I think it's basically stopping clients connected to that network from getting onto *it's* local range, anything beyond it's WAN interface is fair game as far as I know.
Yea, sure, so when one component fails, you're stuck without ANY connectivity of any sort while you wait for the replacement for the entire kit.
Or you could get REALLY short cables, stack the units properly for airflow, and if something fails, you're less likely to have to wait upon a service technician to deliver something to you, as you can likely run to a store and pick up the replacement within hours instead of days.
Plus, blinking lights, man! Blinking lights!
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Where's the ADSL part. The article is asking for an 'n' router with ADSL.
null
ADSL connections are not really fast enough to justify anything faster than 802.11g anyway... If your using an integrated router/ap then chances are that's the only thing your devices will ever be talking to anyway so 802.11n speeds would be wasted.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Why the giant disaprity? Is it population density and simply too many people using the same resources?
I have always found them to be excellent, if you like, a sort of Cisco lite.
http://slashdot.org/~GuyFawkes/journal
This doesn't really come as a surprise. In my opinion, SOHO network gear has always been of the same quality, now people think that's suddenly gonna change just because we have 802.11n?
I have a modem, a separate router (with 802.11n of course) and separate switch, and all I can say is the setup is way more reliable than any all-in-one solution I've tried so far. The modem and switch is from Cisco/Linksys and the router is a RouterBOARD 433 from Mikrotik, which I by the way recommend to anyone who wants a really good router.
Do you want my old one? It did all of this.
The new one is triple-band, has a samba/ftp/www/print server, 2 usb connectors, support for a UMTS usb stick as a alternative connection, a advanced high-quality firewall/ids, VPN support, voice-controlled installation, 3 analog lines and a ISDN bus over VoIP or ISDN routing, the ability to run a program on another system, that gets informed on when someone called, or when you did a call, who it was, etc.
And they still were sorry that it isn’t quite as good as a Fritz!Box apparently. (Apparently AVM offers better versions of it in Germany, than in English-speaking countries. As they are missing for the English version of the page.)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
"Because it's a home, not a datacenter."
That deficiency can be remedied. ;)
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
My thoughts exactly, but the clueless people they sell to don't pay attention to that. Torrent file-sharing in my router! whoo-hoo! let's buy this!. Overheating switches and wireless nics are very common... these products are made to last just 3 or 4 years at most, if they're not in a cold environment. Hell, most would even need fans and they don't even have heatsinks inside. And Linksys are good, other brands are just compact toasters waiting to fail at any minute.
If your ADSL modem/router fails, you can go to the store and get a replacement anyway. You don't need one from your ISP (you probably don't want one from your ISP either, they're normally the cheapest, most basic ones they could buy in bulk).
Only 3 boxes?
I have:
Cable modem, router, another switch since we have >4 devices with ethernet sockets, cable->telefone/data splitter, digital television reciever and analog television amplifier because the incoming signal is crap.
I've measured about 80-90 watts of usage when everything is on standby, let alone being on and active! Also, at night the whole room (it's in the living room behind a TV) is lit up like a christmas tree, since every device got a minimum of 3 leds.
Or you could get REALLY short cables, stack the units properly for airflow,
*Looks at current router and DSL modem*
Yeah, that would require them to also stop with the 'art deco' designs.
Or for me to at least get some sort of shelf/rack system.
Of course, in my new house design I actually have a comm closet - wouldn't necessarily put the wireless router in there, but I sure as heck would put the cable/DSL modem in there and use an ethernet run to any wireless routers. Hmmm... at that point might as well use POE and those thin wireless APs. But that's a commercial solution and a LOT more expensive than a consumer integrated unit.
I don't read AC A human right
Also, on the Australian Front - Several ISPs here use separate PVCs for different services.
An example is Adam Internet; who have General IBilled Internet on 8/35 and CommunityNet (an Unmetered network for users on the same DSLAM equipment) on 8/36. You can't use both if you bridge your DSL modem and have a completely seperate router controlling everything (in this example, PPPOE is handled by the second router).
Built in router/modem combos are still the driving force downunder; the cheaper the better for the majority.
Plug in a modem.
Oh dear. I have:
Cable Modem (ISP supplied and solid as a rock)
Router (self-built, can't remember the last time I had to reboot it)
AP/Switch (Actually my old router, which would need resetting every day when I used it as a router. The AP side crashes every so often, needing it to be reset to get my laptop back on the network, but the switch part seems to be independent)
Switch (at my desk)
File/Print server (currently completely broken).
That matches your list pretty closely...
True, but the Australian market, in the scheme of things, is limited compared to the world market. If the whole world was going to it then we wouldn't have this problem(I'm have DSL).
I don't know how global the 'ADSL' standard Australia is using is, but I do know they tend to have to pay a pretty premium and have limited selection for things like DVRs because of their unique TV system.
Another limiting factor is that 'G' is still 'good enough' for most people - and my phone company is giving 4 port + wireless G routers to new subscribers. A new coworker got that - he's living in a dorm right now, and was having (wireless) network issues. I hauled my laptop over there and fired up the diagnostic software - 'You're on channel 1, along with 7 other networks I can see. There's 7 more on 7, and another 6 on 11'. I ended up putting him on channel 9 - got his connection speed (6' away from the router) from 40mbit to the full 54 and ended the dropout problem. Still, the 'optimal' solution would be for him, indeed, many of the people living there, would be to get routers capable of operating in the 5 Ghz range, whether N or A.
I originally got a modem, then they replaced it with a 4 port wired router w/integrated DSL modem, now they're giving away the wireless ones. Loved it because they screwed up the upgrades because I had a static NIC. They suggested plugging straight into the router 'for better speeds', I pointed out that my router had wireless N, gigabit ports, and better security than theirs. If they had upgraded me to wireless, at best I'd have used theirs to set up a public network for visitors.
I don't read AC A human right
Can I add "Low RF emissions" to that? I have a BT Homehub ADSL router, which splatters severe interference from down about AM radio up to analogue TV frequencies. The interference it produces is strongest in the 2m amateur band - I can pick up a spur from it on 145.6875MHz from over half a mile away.
I suspect that you could make a convincing argument for saying that anyone with a Homehub is running an illegal radio transmitter.
Draytek Vigor? I had actually never heard of the company before, but I've been doing some work with a UK firm beginning their push into the states and they shipped over Draytek appliances. The hardware platform seems very robust and full featured, the web interface didn't make me want to claw my eyeballs out and they haven't had any dropouts or other issues even with the hardware hiding in a toasty coatroom.
--- Do you believe in the day?
This is what I have and ...wow. This is the most rock solid stable and fast ADSL model router that I have ever owned.
Kudos to Billion.
you do know that by putting his AP on channel 9 you are now screwing with the 6's and the 11's ?
The average Slashdotter is probably not going to stick with the stock device from their ISP though.
I understand that putting the modem into the router saves space, but it creates headaches. I'd rather own my own router, and have the telco only own a trivially-swapped modem. I don't like it when I have to operate hardware in my house that I'm not permitted to tamper with and keeping the modem separate minimizes this.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Carriers are forced to lower margins, can't cross-finance as much.
For everyone who can't calculate it themselves: It's pretty much always better for the customer to buy stuff and pay lower monthly fees instead of the other way round. Large one-time costs are better than medium long-term costs.
That being said, just get a Fritz! Box 7390 and be done with it.
2 * POTS
1 * ISDN with optional pass-through to a proper telco appliance
6 * DECT handsets
2 * USB; the mass storage can be exposed via SMB & UPNP-AV/DLNA
4 * Gigabit Ethernet
802.11 bgn
IPv6
And a ton of other features. Plus, you can install freetz!, a free modifcation of the Linux that runs on the Fritz! boxes.
PS: I am aware of how bank credits work, but I am talking utility costs, not buying a house, here.
Actually you're missing the integrated ADSL, which was the focal point of the article.
Of course, in my new house design I actually have a comm closet - wouldn't necessarily put the wireless router in there, but I sure as heck would put the cable/DSL modem in there and use an ethernet run to any wireless routers. Hmmm... at that point might as well use POE and those thin wireless APs. But that's a commercial solution and a LOT more expensive than a consumer integrated unit.
You can roll your own PoE, just run half-duplex connections to your kit (1/2 and 3/6 pairs, IIRC) and use the other wires in the bundle to carry power. Don't make the mistake of trying to run AC power down the line, most anything like that which runs on AC will also run on DC, although it usually only works with one tip polarity because such small crap devices often have half-wave rectifiers. A couple jacks and wall plates will cost you $10 at the home despot. Do yourself a favor and get odd-colored jacks to denote half duplex. If you just install some other kind of power jack in the wall (buy jacks and plugs at radio shack) for the power to come out of, you can't even harm a device by plugging it in.
I get internet access from a local WISP. They installed a bridge/AP in a metal box on the antenna mast. The PoE injector is in my living room closet along with my primary AP/router. (WRT54G with DD-WRT.) Then I have a cable run to the entertainment system hooked up to another AP, as well as to the Xbox (about to be removed as it has died), Xbox 360, Wii, and a PC. This is the AP that I hammer when I want to transfer files, so that my lady can still get access. I don't know if it's a problem with 802.11G or a problem with DD-WRT but if I have a file transfer going I get dropouts, and my two APs are on different channels with no others visible in the area since I live in the boonies.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I would mod you up, but for some reason the moderation system just doesn't seem to be working for me tonight - I have mod points, but I try to mod and nothing happens.
same here. and that floating widget thing is also not visible. and when i click reply i get a separate page. earlier there used to be a reply box that would appear underneath the parent comment. i wonder if they test slashdot on even a single browser. because none works properly for me right now.
Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
It's doesn't support propagating wake-on-lan packets from the WAN interface.
My home router (Draytek Vigor 2820Vn) is pretty much perfect - it isn't dual band - but who cares? Lots of VPN and Firewall features - perfect for me!
Only complaint - Draytek are slow to release new firmware - been in RC for 3 months..!
I agree, I also have a airport extreme i use for all of these things, including routing to the internet since my ADSL is just a modem
(horray).
Unlike my ZyXEL which failed with 50+ connections open and my Linksys which just had to be powercycled now and then, my airport extreme just sits there and requires no attention, reboots slowdowns etc. I don't even think it is that expensive for what it is doing.
I use a Cisco 1801 for my home connection too, it doesn't do wireless but there's another model that does...
It was the only router i could find that supports ipv6 over adsl.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
I use their Vigor 110 modem at home, it's brilliant. It does a great job at converting PPPoA to PPPoE which lets you use a separate modem and router, thus giving you access to higher end routers.
I've also found that the combination of using a homebuilt router and an off-the-shelve AP/switch works well. If you don't make them do NAT and shit then most consumer router/switch/ap combos work fine (even my shittaclular linksys thing).
"linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
Not a single distributor in the USA. Question: know an EU retailer who will ship to USA?
Also the external power supply will need replaced with a 110V USA power supply; but those are easy enough to find.
Every mans' island needs an ocean; choose your ocean carefully.
Begun, the great pie war has.
Hey American, stop laughing. We've already had a Rum Rebellion.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Did you see the 7270 in this post. Looks impressive. Become a US distributor; I bet you could add some profit selling these in the US.
Every mans' island needs an ocean; choose your ocean carefully.
I have a NetGear ASDL/802.11n router that seems to work fine for me.
I own a NetComm all-in-one router provided to me by my ISP. It does 802.11 b/g WiFi, 4 100mbit Ethernet ports, DSL modem and router functionality (including NAT and DHCP)
Its using the Texas Instruments AR7 router chipset and has run perfect since I obtained it (all the problems to date have been faults at the ISPs end, usually the fault of a 3rd party carrier and not the ISP)
I tend to find that CISCO proper hardware is fine, it's just the consumer stuff branded as 'Linksys' is a pile of stinking crap.
Also, I'm very attached to my Monowall firewall. And yes, IPv6 support is something i require in all new network products I buy now.
In Australia ISPs tend to not lock you out of your modem. You either purchase outright pay off as part of a contract, but in either case you own it and have full access to it.
(Some ISPs will rent a modem to you as well, but again they still give you full access to it).
Why no basic modem / non wifi ones as well as wifi ones. So you have a choice take a basic one and get your own WIFI one or take there one with wifi?
My experience is that since 802.11n degrades severely when legacy devices are nearby and takes pretty much the entire 2.4 GHz band, properly designed G devices are superior. (Esp. since it's VERY difficult to find N routers that support external antennas.) At ranges greater than 10-20 feet, my old workhorse (Buffalo WHR-G54S with a 500 mW amp and sector antenna attached) kills N solutions that cost more than the Buffalo + antenna + amp combo.
A dual-band router for $300 just plain isn't going to sell, channel bonding between bands isn't worth the $100-150 premium over two separate devices.
A Ubiqiti Rocket M in either band is $100 and has higher transmit power than anything I know of from D-Link or Linksys, plus supports external antennas (unlike all recent Linksys gear and most D-Link units.)
Yes, you need to purchase antennas for the Rocket, but you can get a 5 GHz Rocket M with a high gain sector antenna for less than $150 total - so what is the justification for a shitty dual-band consumer grade unit with internal antennas at a $300 price point?
If Ubiqiti can hit their price points without large-scale ISP subsidies and a pretty low volume specialty market, why can't D-Link?
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Please make sure you read the standards on POE before you attempt this. Typical POE does handshaking to determine voltage/current requirements. In addition, the small gauge of wire used in typical cat5/cat5e will NOT carry current very well. If you attempt to throw 5v 1a down the wire, you may overheat even two pairs bonded together and find yourself in a very interesting (fire?) situation. You may also see a large voltage drop at the far (receiving end) depending on the distance of the cable.
In short, you can try this and you may be successful, but be aware of the fact that you must understand a little bit about how electricity works before you attempt this.
Karnal
Looks like nice kit but I have very few customers who use DSL. Cable broadband is dirt cheap where I live (comparatively for the US anyway)
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
Every time I hear the term "business class" I think about all the businesses I've worked with over the years. All they wanted was the features of a consumer router (maybe with the annoying Microsoft login stuff), but that didn't crash / die all of the time. Except the ones willing to shell out to Cisco, they were all chased back to consumer grade electronics when their "business class" stuff died two years in the pipe.
Make it reliable. That's all we care about at this point.
The ______ Agenda
I run lots of dd/open-wrt for all kinds of strange and quirky applications, but I have to admit, the $29 Rosewill 802.11n access point from NewEgg is a champ. It's tiny, sips power, and just plain works. I'm not sure what the OS is, which in my experience has always been a disaster (I'm lookin' at you, D-Link) but the price tempted me and I wasn't disappointed. It's never needed a reset.
It 'only' has a hundred-meg uplink, and two rather than three antennas, but I can get signal from the parking lot of my office building 300' away from my data closet with the stock antennas. It doesn't do any of those fancy things listed in TFA, but I have an ASUS 520g running an open source firmware behind it which can do all that. So, I get the holy grail for $70 and only have to sacrifice 5GHz and gigabit uplinks.
The market may really be slow to respond because the exisiting products are good-enough.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
They are amazing. My firm uses lots of them.
Dont buy the IPPBX 2820 - they're unreliable.
The 2820V/n models are solid as a rock, and have a ton of usable features
I've never done this in an attic space, but I've had an overheating cable modem in a regular room during summer hours.
I took an 80mm case fan, wired it to a 9v wall wart, and created a cardboard air funnel from the case fan to the modem. Shockingly enough, it actually helped improve reliability.
The ______ Agenda
I was just going to comment something similarly - the explanations given for lack of router development in the article simply don't apply to apple products because apple - whether you like it or not - expects users to pony up cash for 'em, and they're not going to be "DSL bundles" where the ISPs are looking to shave every cent off that they can (I remember hearing once a joke about how vendors would be prepared to kill their grandmothers for a 1 cent per unit cost savings. They ain't kidding).
The odd thing is, I already have the router that both you, and the article describe...
It has:
Simultaneous dual band
Ability to broadcast a guest network as well as my secured ones 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz ones
Gigabit ethernet switch
Range good enough to get from one corner of my house to the other far corner, and probably more.
USB print server
Ability to add storage
Ability to act as a backup server
Doesn't overhead
Hasn't crashed since it started running several months ago
Hasn't ever dropped a connection
Hasn't ever had compatibility issues with random 3rd party hardware/software
What is it? Oddly... it's an Airport Extreme
You're the third to recommend an Apple product.
You're the third to accuse anyone of not liking it to be an automatic Apple hater.
You're the third to whom I will now reply (in thegarbz stead) Apple doesn't sell a product with a built in ADSL2 modem, which incidentally makes your lovely product recommendation completely off topic.
And if Linksys works that poorly.... Think how poorly D-Link works ... 5minutes at a time with 20% packetloss... if you are lucky?
D-Link gear is packet loss guaranteed, overheat guaranteed, and will make owner angry guaranteed.
Pulsed Media Seedboxes
Get a Cisco ADSL2+ router, Procurve 5 or 8 port web managed only 1gbit switch and separate 802.11n AP and you get things working.
Tho it will cost a bit if you buy everything new, but the good thing about Cisco & Procurve is that they have lifetime guarantees so buying used is a no brainer.
Bunch everything together: Likely none of it works as advertised.
Pulsed Media Seedboxes
Paybacks are a bitch, eh?
Uhm, yes you got all those.
All of those, e-mail, twitter client, mp3 playing etc. ARE separate components as software in a hardware platform. They share little if any code (internal code that is). They all are separate applications, thus separate components working individually.
What you are saying you would like your iphone run a single process which plays mp3s, fetches your e-mail, allows you to use twitter in a single process and codebase. Yeah ... Imagine if Flash crashed, taking down firefox, which would take down explorer (or mac's desktop ui), which would take down graphics video hardware driver, which would then take down the kernel. That's what you are essentially saying you want.
Processes can be imagined as individual components, as they essentially are separate components, being isolated from other processes without specially coded, special means of communication between other very particular processes.
Pulsed Media Seedboxes
> I suspect that you could make a convincing argument for saying that anyone
> with a Homehub is running an illegal radio transmitter.
Class B devices ("home") are permitted more radiation than you might expect.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
"Hmmm... at that point might as well use POE and those thin wireless APs. But that's a commercial solution and a LOT more expensive than a consumer integrated unit."
For the performance they provide, Ubiqiti's Rocket and Bullet series are pretty reasonably priced. A complete high power 5 GHz N setup (with PoE injector, AP, and antennas) will run you around $150-170. A Rocket M5 is $90, and a matched 16 dBi 120 degree sector antenna is $80, total $170.
Low power (Likely 100 mW or less as opposed to 1000 mW) 5 GHz N routers with integrated (crappy, not anywhere close to 16 dBi) antennas are in the $100+ range. PoE with a Ubiqiti solution is just icing on the cake at that point.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
I have the same Asus running dd-wrt, while I'm not entirely satisfied with it (it's a bit slower than I'd like and like all of them not all printers will work without a lot of fooling around) it's better than most. Range isn't bad, either. I'll check out the Rosewill, I have someone looking for something with enough range to cover a large apartment building. How is it for handling multiple connections at once?
Your last point makes sense; doesn't stop me from being frustrated... I don't mind spending money on a good setup, but many of my customers are handicapped or living on fixed incomes, and they do...
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
You can roll your own PoE, just run half-duplex connections to your kit (1/2 and 3/6 pairs, IIRC) and use the other wires in the bundle to carry power.
Interesting, but I'd rather not for a number of reasons.
1. Future upgradeability - gigabit requires the extra lines, and at 600mbit, even at half duplex a N device can be fast enough to saturate a 100mb connection. Especially if you get a dual radio router and run networks on both the 2.4 and 5 ghz range.
2. Selling - I don't want to leave landmines for a future purchaser of my house.
3. Trouble for me - I get a new router, I may have to make MORE adapters for my wireless router to make it work.
Remember that this would be a NEW BUILD house, so running more wire is cheap. I'd rather just pay the $20-60 to have 2 ethernet lines run to the spots I plan on possibly having routers than to mess with half-duplexing. Heck, it's about the same price to have them put a power slot next to it as well.
One of the main selling points to POE wireless points, in my opinion, isn't for NEW builds, it's for when you're retrofitting. That way you only have to run the network cable over to where you're going to mount it to on the ceiling, instead of also having to run a power cable, doubling the infrastructure upgrade costs. It's marginally neater as well.
As for the wall power jacks from radio shack; the local one is pretty horribly canted towards consumer electronics, not 'do it yourself'. I'd end up using the local menards or ordering off the internet.
Anyways, with new build you might as well put a proper AC jack there, it's more versatile.
The only reason for having them is paranoia anyways. A centrally located wiring closet with an AP should work, but a couple spots I can put APs in would ensure excellent connectivity in the living room, bedrooms, even garage* and yard(if I want it).
Heck, the 'TRENDnet TEW-653AP' are almost just right for my purposes though. Still a bit heavy on features - I'm thinking more of a central controller doing the DHCP and firewall stuff, kinda like how aruba networks work(dumb AP that essentially tunnels all of it's traffic via VPN to a central controller that decides what to do with it). The other point is that it's 2.4 ghz only. Produce a dual radio 2.4/5 Ghz version and I'm sold(as long as reliability, range are still adequate).
I don't know if it's a problem with 802.11G or a problem with DD-WRT but if I have a file transfer going I get dropouts, and my two APs are on different channels with no others visible in the area since I live in the boonies.
Possibly your router; I've done LARGE data transfers over 802.11G without problems other than 'takes forever'. I'm much happier now that I'm running on N, and one router easily covers the whole house. The whole reason for having multiple APs in my 'New' house is because it'll be bigger and the closet will be in the basement. I'd probably get a 8 port switch or something anyways and hardwire stuff like game stations and my desktop machines. Server/s will go in the closet(remember to have cooling to that closet).
*for looking up advice on car maintenance/repairs, maybe?
I don't read AC A human right
Or, for cheaper, the Netgear WNDR3700. And it also runs OpenWRT. And it has more ethernet ports. And probably a faster CPU and more RAM. Oh and yes, it can be used with any OS because the configuration is in a Web interface.
For the performance they provide, Ubiqiti's Rocket and Bullet series are pretty reasonably priced. A complete high power 5 GHz N setup (with PoE injector, AP, and antennas) will run you around $150-170. A Rocket M5 is $90, and a matched 16 dBi 120 degree sector antenna is $80, total $170.
You do realize I was looking to provide wireless access inside my house, right? The Rocket/Bullet are explicity designed for outdoor point to point use, not point to multipoint.
'PowerAP N' would be more what I'm looking for.
I don't read AC A human right
As I make it, the Airport extreme is £140 and the WNDR3700 is £165, you have a strange definition of cheaper.
draytek doesnt want you commit mayhem? their docs are more opaque(and crap) than the most opaque Cisco manuals
If you set the MTU settings for the XBox, that could be your issue when transferring files from PC to AP.
And the wireless network created by an airport extreme can be very easily extended with the cheaper airport express.
Works great for me.
Ian Ameline
Yea, sure, so when one component fails, you're stuck without ANY connectivity of any sort while you wait for the replacement for the entire kit.
I heard the same thing ad nauseum when I sent all my kids to college each with their own dvd/tv combo. All of them are still working perfectly. And the one in the basement. And the one in the garage.
If your ADSL modem/router fails, you can go to the store and get a replacement anyway.
I'm now on my fourth ADSL modem; my first two (Billion and D-Link) both crapped out just after the warranty expired. The third (also a D-Link) got retired when my Belkin WAP crapped out.
For a few years since then, I've had a Netcomm NB9W which has been 100% reliable, and has the convenience of an integrated ATA for a SIP phone. It isn't the fastest WAP (only 802.11g), but if I need fast transfers on my LAN, I still have plenty of ethernet sockets around the house. And needless to say, 802.11n is no faster on the internet, since ADSL2+ is still way slower than 802.11g.
http://www.pcengines.ch/alix.htm
Stick Zero shell on it and you have everything you could want.
If you set the MTU settings for the XBox, that could be your issue when transferring files from PC to AP.
Thanks for the advice, but it happens only on wireless traffic and no matter what I use (WinXP on Vostro 1500, WinXP on Aspire D250, Win7 on GW LT3201u, Jolicloud on EEE 701) and basically everything but whoever is doing the transfer gets hammered. I suspect it has to do with my crap netgear AP, which I'm going to have to replace with something with GigE anyway (and thus I may as well get WiFi-N, since I now have a number of devices which support it) since I just hit woot.com which has the corniest iteration of the sheevaplug or whatever (possibly also the most useful, but it's got lowest memory) for $25 shipped today. 128MB, GigE, 3xUSB2, and a connection for seagate freeagent (high-power USB2 as well?) The dependence on a website for configuration is absurd but it can be hacked (I heart page title) Instructions are provided for gentoo, I intend to install debian, hopefully I can just debootstrap.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Seriously? This is why they invented closets.
Yes, but do you really want an all-in-one device hooked up to the long, usually unprotected wire out side the house?
By having a standalone little ADSL modem, it acts as a sacrificial device to any power jolts coming in over the phone line. It'll cook, and I get that replaced, but my AP keeps running. Sure, it could also chain through to the router/AP, but it's less likely.
True, this means more wallwarts and power drain, but it's a personal choice. If you're in a crappy power area this can be a real concern. I had a 2wire all-in-one and corrosion on one of the power wires at the pole, causing voltage sags on half my circuits, and the 2wire went nuts, constantly. A standalone ADSL, miniswitch, and AP managed to handle the power problems gracefully, until I managed to finally get the power company to fix the damned problem by tightening the nut on the power pole, on the fourth visit. :P
I have tried many routers over the years but some of the best I've used were the ones supported by the custom Tomato firmware. The WRT54G series Linksys routers or the Asus WL-500 routers work extremely well. The best way to test a wireless router's ability is to see if it can survive torrents. I find the ones that can with stability to be powerful enough to even handle routing an entire small office's internet activity.
D-Link is some of the worst consumer wireless routers I have ever used in my life. I have friends with disaster stories as well. D-Link often cheaps out leaving essential stability components out or they overpower their wifi chip to the point that there's a real risk of it melting down. I would never recommend them.
A recent router out on the market that's very good is the Netgear WND3700 (Dual-Band Wifi). Unfortunately like most good things in life, it isn't cheap.
Guess what I'll be using indoors once I get around to buying an antenna, and what a good friend of mine has been using to cover his house?
The only real "deficiency" for house use would be the fact that it is JUST an AP, not a router/AP combo with a built-in switch.
However, if you're rackmounting most of your gear, independent router and APs (esp. if you decide to use multiple APs to cover a large area) aren't a bad thing.
Another small disadvantage is that the mounting mechanism is outdoor-oriented. I'm probably going to make a floorstand out of PVC pipe to mount the unit on. Not sure how my friend has his mounted.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
For the Australians, where I come from in America, ADSL-anything has not had good reputation of high bandwidth. We associate ADSL to 1.5 to 3Mbps
That explains a lot. I've been pretty happy with my ADSL2+ connection in Perth (WA), since I commonly get 20+ Mbps, and for the moment I don't need more.
In a few months, however, I'll be moving to rural Tasmania, and my house is (or will be) about 1.5km to the nearest Telstra pole.
I'm going to have to take whatever connection I can get: there's no way I can afford to lay that amount of cable, so my choice will be between satellite or Telstra's wireless fraudband connection. Probably the former. One way or another, my internet "lifestyle" is going to change, but I guess if it didn't, then I might as well stick to the city life.
PS I don't mean to pick on Linksys, it's just that they're the ones I'm most familiar with. Overall the fails seemed to be in proportion to market share although every one had its particular problems.
I'll pick on Linksys. Products which overheat, have bug-ridden firmware, and an utter lack of quality control do not belong on the market.
Remember that small workgroup switch you'll often find stuffed behind a file cabinet in small office environments? It's the one whose existence you only become aware of when one or more people suddenly cannot connect to the network. A brief power outage / moon phase / random fart caused that switch to quit receiving packets, requiring a power cycle. Yep - Linksys switches are infamous for this.
The WRT600N wireless router was a decent piece of hardware, but suffered greatly due to substandard firmware. Not only was the web interface prone to random acts of stupidity like refusing to clear a field (DNS entry #3 was one such field which could not be cleared without a complete factory reset), but wireless connections to this router would become inceasingly unreliable over an approximate period of 24 hours, at which point the router would drop connections completely.
Then there's the WRT120N. This router shipped with a slight flaw which prevented Intel 2200 wireless cards (Centrino) using the Intel drivers for Windows from obtaining a connection. How did QA miss that little bug?
Seeing the quality of products Cisco has shipped under the Linksys brand makes me wary of using Cisco-branded products as well. Any company which could put such badly made and tested products on the market doesn't need my business.
...Or you could deploy POE injectors. If you do a POE implementation, it should be a standard one to ensure it works right. Half duplex? Im not sure if normal POE does that, but if it does, I'll just run power. Wireless is already half duplex.
Guns don't kill people, "with glowing hearts" kills people.
I live in a former Bellsouth region, now lovingly reunited with its Ma Bell. The DSL modems we get are combination ADSL/router units. The problem is the unit has all the software capabilities of a "router" (NAT, DHCP, etc.) but none of the ports. That's right: it has one Ethernet port and no wireless capabilities. That makes installing a real "router" even more difficult. If you try installing it with the typical instructions, you WILL fail. The fix is not in the manual for the router and of course the modem doesn't come with a manual, but you can find out how to set it up on DSL Reports. Basically, either the modem or the router needs to get lobotomized, setting it as an Ethernet bridge.
Essentially, we have two options: tamper with the telco-provided modem and deal with the consequences, or get an all-in-one unit (either from AT&T or bring your own modem).
Typical POE does handshaking to determine voltage/current requirements.
Typical PoE is done with a wall wart plugged into an injector. Or at least I'd bet there's more sites where it's used that way, even if there's less jacks. I do advocate not actually running power through the RJ connector.
. In addition, the small gauge of wire used in typical cat5/cat5e will NOT carry current very well. If you attempt to throw 5v 1a down the wire, you may overheat even two pairs bonded together and find yourself in a very interesting (fire?) situation.
Yeah, that's all true. The cleverest thing is probably to buy some magical PoE injector/remover, I imagine they are available. The second-cleverest thing to do would be to build simple power supplies such that you actually followed one spec or another, or at minimum you'd run 48VDC and include fuses at each end. The third-cleverest thing would be to run a separate wire for power right next to it :p
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Class B devices ("home") are permitted more radiation than you might expect.
The spurious emissions go further than the wifi does. That can't be right.
How is it for handling multiple connections at once?
Good question, I haven't pushed it beyond a few. I usually figure on an access point per dozen active clients. Apartment buildings are often built like they're made to absorb radio. You're better off putting in a cheap access point every 50' or so and setting them to minimize interference. If your building was 50' wide, you'd probably stagger them like:
1.........6
.....11....
6.........1
.....11....
1.........6
(gah, ignore the extra space, stupid lameness filter)
to spread coverage. Set the SSID's to be identical and most decent NIC's will roam properly (some older ones hang on tenaciously, but there's not much you can do.
I don't mind spending money on a good setup, but many of my customers are handicapped or living on fixed incomes, and they do...
Do they really need -n then? I'm a bit of a computer geek and am perfectly fine with a -g network at home. The 520g's go on special for $35 if they need the USB, which is less than the typical monthly ISP bill.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Secondly, what you describe is NOT PoE. It's a hacky cable with no protection scheme that is likely to cook any other device that you accidentally plug it into.
Thirdly it won't even work in many cases, because CAT5 has a rather high resistance - about 3 per 100 feet. Many devices really need the correct DC voltage supply and if you drop it by a volt or two the input will be too low and not properly regulated.
Proper PoE, that is, 802.3af, uses higher voltages to deal with the resistive losses, and has a detection scheme which prevents damage to non-PoE devices. It also delivers power not by lighting up unused pairs but by putting a bias across the data pairs (which are AC coupled). This means you don't use extra pairs and it can still work with gig-E.
Proper PoE switches/injectors and "splitters" are now cheap enough that there's not much reason to go fiddling with special cables and risking damage to your equipment.
"Yea, sure, so when one component fails, you're stuck without ANY connectivity of any sort while you wait for the replacement for the entire kit."
Or, you could just walk down to Best Buy and pick up another one. My electronics stores all sell them, and I live in a fairly rural area. And having three separate devices isn't any more reliable. What if the modem goes? I doesn't matter if the access point is still working then. You still don't have Internet access. Buying a 3-in-1 is one of the best things I've ever done. It's smaller, easier to manage, and uses less power. And it's not like they're scarce.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
> Yea, sure, so when one component fails, you're stuck without ANY connectivity of any sort while you wait for the replacement for the entire kit.
However, in both cases, you're dependent on a single component (the ADSL modem) for connectivity. The difference is that I can't use the network if my ADSL modem dies, which isn't what you'd call a huge deal (well, it isn't for us, anyway).
In terms of replacement... why (possibly more accurately, where?) on earth would I have to wait for a technician to deliver the new one? Here (UK) it's much easier to get combined ADSL modem & router than trying to find the modem by itself....
The power supply is universal and comes with appropriate plug adapters. Just FYI.
I also want a Web Server. Decentralization for the win!
There are increasing number of processors for these uses with low energy consumption, we're becoming skilled in embeded tech and there are many tools for the job, we know about microkernels for some time now. So there shouldn't be any overheating, compatibility problems, crashing or dropping connections.
And there should be services which don't go offline when I power down my PC - I shouldn't have to leave it running just so that I don't stop a torrent, can receive my personal e-mail, or so that I can run my personal website. Nor should I pay a lot of money for a server.
As long as the software is free, I say go for it!
Yes, the guest network can be locked out of the secure private network-- And it works fine behind a router. It just does it's own NAT for it's clients.
That said: the guest network can be given a password too-- it's not an open/insecure access point. Its just a secondary ssid that it listens to in addition to your other two secure ones (the 5 and 2.4mhz bands), and while the latter two can talk to each other as a single locals network the guest only gets to talk to the Internet.
And in the meantime, I've burned through fifteen different all-in-one video cards, wireless APs, and those laptop/desktop systems.
I worked repair for a LONG time. All in one is pretty fucking useless when it comes to reliability.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
For DSL this may be the case, but for Cable, most providers will require you to provide the new MAC address of the modem.
Which means YOU'RE STILL STUCK WAITING FOR A TECH.
I used to work for ISPs.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
"why (possibly more accurately, where?) on earth would I have to wait for a technician to deliver the new one?"
They need to register your MAC address so it's allowed on the network.
This is how almost ALL ISPs operate.
So if you buy a new piece of equipment, you're still likely stuck on waiting for a tech to get your 'always-on' connection registered by MAC address with their network.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
You're the third to accuse anyone of not liking it to be an automatic Apple hater.
I did nothing of the sort. Quote to me the line where this is stated or implied. You can't, because it doesn't exist.
You're the third to whom I will now reply (in thegarbz stead) Apple doesn't sell a product with a built in ADSL2 modem, which incidentally makes your lovely product recommendation completely off topic.
No, it doesn't. The article mentions routers with these features, not modem routers. It stands to reason that if the ISP can't provide a modem/router with these features at this price point, they ought to provide the modem and the consumer can provide the full featured router.
AC, you could try working on your reading comprehension.
I'm more technical than most, and I want an all-in-one. All I want is an ADSL2+ WAN port, 4+ gig-E ports, and Wireless N. I've already got a separate NAS and printer setup that the OP was talking. For some reason, an Ethernet WAN with what I want is "simple" but ADSL2+ on the WAN is hard to find (I've got one now that came with my DSL, but it reboots about three times a day, driving us nuts). And getting some of the extra features (I'd eventually move them to that box for the electrical savings) would be nice.
20 watts here or there times 5 devices times 24 hours a day adds up. I'm the kind of guy that spends an extra 10% to get the 75W version of a processor with identical specs as the 95W version so I can cut that waste, not just because it's quieter because I can run the fans slower (also saving a watt or two).
Learn to love Alaska
It obviously has nothing to do with the fact that most connections don't even break 10meg, 802.11B is plenty fast for most peoples broadband connections.
So why are you expecting the ISP to foot the bill for your fancy $200 802.11N router, when even a 5 year old 802.11B router will more than suffice. Especially when you consider that an N router would eat up nearly 1/3rd of their income. Great business plan! At any rate, it's D-Link, what do you expect, you may as well be buying Belkin.
Oh, and for those discussing DD-WRT and combined devices...
Read up on DD-WRT, it SLOWS newer routers and why anyone wants an ADSL modem with built in wireless is a fool if you have a home network with sharing enabled. Providers have a tough enough time building a good router (and ADSL modems)it seems, now you want it all built in? I have yet to see an all-in-one that worked well or wasn't 2 years behind current technology. Give me a $20 modem and modern wireless router (with all of the bells and whistles). Then I can upgrade my home network (which upgrades more often than the ADSL connection) whenever something new comes out by replacing a relatively cheap router as compared to an all-in-one that would cost twice as much, and again, be two years behind. Besides, I have seen more than a few modems die prematurely. Sounds great letting a $20 part ruin a $300 modem/router. Modems are subject to power surges from phone lines as well as power lines. Keep it cheap. I use a $5 Speedstream modem I got used from Ebay (the provided Westell was garbage) and a Linksys wrt610n, making for a rock solid setup.
The only real "deficiency" for house use would be the fact that it is JUST an AP, not a router/AP combo with a built-in switch.
However, if you're rackmounting most of your gear, independent router and APs (esp. if you decide to use multiple APs to cover a large area) aren't a bad thing.
I agree, but I'd probably want to talk with the reps on the usage of them - the rocket is only capable of 5Ghz operation per the spec sheet, and I'd be concerned about compatibility with WPA2, SSID, connecting to multiple sources, etc... It's designed to provide remote internet access, after all.
This is the first time I've seen this company, and the spec sheets don't mention that stuff. Limited time for research as well.
As for the mount, with 120 degree coverage, I'd suggest wall mount in a corner.
I don't read AC A human right
Well you might not want it built-in but your provider does, helps keep you locked into his service if he controls both router and access. You can't just swap adsl for cable, you now have to buy a new router too.
Doesn't have QoS
Doesn't have web-based management (requires Apple's config application)
Only has ONE blinking light!?!?
Don't get me wrong, I do think it's a great router, but I REALLY wish it had some QoS features for the price.
That doesn't solve wasting tens of watts each on 2 "extra" devices, when it could all be done with (at least approximately) the same electricity as one of the existing boxes.
(I say this hypocritically with multiple DVRs on all the time, and yes, I wish they would spin down their hard drives and do more to save power when not recording things I told them to record.. and yes, no need to tangent into the "hard drives last longer when constantly running" meme.)
Yes I understand the intent of it but I think you missed the crux of the question, which was how does it manage to do _both_ of those things. I.e. how can in be connected to a secure LAN, bridge that through to the secure wireless clients, and still provide a guest network that can NOT access the secure LAN, when the Airport is NOT the sole gateway to the internet.
Sure it would have to NAT the guest network, but then how does it differentiate the secure LAN from the internet? They're both reached on the same interface. You would need a firewall rule. The clean way to do it is to make a VLAN and let the internet gateway handle NAT for both secure AND guest subnets. That is also necessary if you want to serve the same SSIDs from multiple APs for roaming.
I won't even get into DMZ issues but that's basically more of the same problem.
You can buy your own cable modems, at least with some providers (I have no idea if this is FCC mandated).
e.g. http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Users-Can-Now-Buy-Comcast-DOCSIS-30-Modems-101500
I want as many things together as possible. It dramatically simplifies the setup and reduces the number of issues. I used to have 3 boxes (modem, router, wifi access point) and whenever there was any kind of problem it was a hell to figure out, tracing each connection through to try and find which one was unplugged, off line or whatever.
The all-in-one I have now has never faulted, fires everything up in the right order on startup and has a net power consumption equal to just one of the previous boxes. And there are only 2 cables going into it (power and phone line).
What I really want now is to add print and file sharing because I hate having a separate NAS as well.
I went through a steady stream of these - some with integrated DSL some without - Linksys, DLink, Netgear etc.
Eh, Linksys made some of the most hackable little consumer devices made with the original WRT54G line. I still have an early version that I bought back in 2003, if memory serves. I wrote about my feelings for D-Link on another post here. Complete garbage. Dunno so much about Netgear, but I used to use their old CardBus PCMCIA wireless cards without too much trouble.
Finally I broke down and bought a Cisco 857W which is a real Cisco device running IOS including DSL, Wireless, Statefull Firewall and IPSEC VPN. I was studying for my CCNA so it was a good device to learn on and was how I justified the purchase to the Mrs.
It might cost AU$450 and have a pretty massive learning curve to configure it properly but man is it solid and a great performer. It has an uptime currently of over six months with only 2 DSL activations (ie it has only had to reconnect to my ISP once in six months) and I do quite a bit of bittorrenting via wireless with hundreds of connections and with the firewall on getting over 16MBit/sec out of my ADSL2+ link.
Man, you got that right. Years ago, I was working for a small NGO in Kenya that wanted to set up a wireless network at one of their hospital. My plan was to set up a bunch of WRT54Gs with open firmware, like I had at a sister hospital with no trouble. Simple, but full featured and you can train anyone to run it. Somehow, one of the well meaning morons back in the US got Cisco to donate over 10k USD of equipment. Problem - no one knew IOS and since I was the only remotely IT savvy of anyone there, expat or Kenyan, it fell on my lap to figure it out. Very steep learning curve. Plateaus fast tho. Complete overkill for the home consumer, though.
I mentioned this in another post but the Apple Extreme Base Station is a great home solution. The one I set up at my parent's house had an uptime of over 16 months before it went down for an update.
That's true for now, but it won't be once they start rolling out the NBN. From what I've heard, they'll be setting up a modem in some fixed location (e.g. by the power meter) and use cat5 for the last 10m or so. What worries me about this is if it's just a simple modem, then a lot of people are going to be plugging their computers in directly without a firewall.
Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
Second that on the DLink. I picked up a DLink modem that fell over on a small rsync over SSH. Junk.
meh
>> That's like saying "Why would I want an email client, twitter client, ipod, *and* telephone in the same device"
> Or you could get REALLY short cables, stack the units properly for airflow, and if something fails, you're less likely to have to wait upon a service technician to deliver something
Great advice. With 4 phones wired together on a belt, you'd like a suicide bomber.
Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
Whatever else you say about PoE, it uses the wires you'd need for full duplex to carry power. I'd like to see it all replaced with fiber+power conductors... Which will probably happen eventually.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I have an apartment, so for me it's "floorstand by the wall". :)
I'm surprised you haven't heard of Ubiqiti before, they're pretty well known. Their AP units are Atheros chipsets and they run a Linux-based OS. They've made some tweaks for improved performance when using Ubiqiti clients with their APs, but the AirMax stuff also can operate in standard 802.11n mode.
The Rocket M5 is 5 GHz-only. The M2 is the 2.4 GHz version.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Why in the world would you want an ADSL2+ modem (or any modem or media adapter other than ethernet or USB) built in to your router?
One word: bursting. If you're trying to prioritize traffic, you need to be aware of what the top speed of your ADSL or cable modem is. Nowadays, most cable modems are capable of "bursting" at far higher rates than the long-run limit.
Unfortunately, if you program the long-run limit into your traffic shaper, you lose the benefit of bursting, and getting a traffic shaper to be aware of bursting would almost certainly require a level of precision that is best accomplished IN THE MODEM ITSELF!
Hence why it's good to have the routing done in the modem, or have the standard interface to the modem be a bit more intelligent than ethernet. Good luck with the latter.
I should point out that it would be nice if networking devices in general would look at priority tags attached to packets when choosing which to throw away.
It's ridiculous that it's 2010 and these things are still ignored.