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AU Band Men At Work Owes Royalties On 'Kookaburra'

neonsignal writes "Iconic Australian band Men at Work have been ordered to pay royalties for an instrumental riff in their song 'Down Under.' The notes were sampled from a well-known children's song 'Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gum Tree,' written in 1934 for a Girl Guide's Jamboree. The Justice found the claims of the copyright owner Larrikin to be excessive, but ordered the payment of royalties and a percentage of future profits. Let's hope the primary schools are up to date with their ARIA license fees!"

371 comments

  1. 1934 by Arancaytar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Fuck, is the guy who wrote this even still alive?

    Oh right, copyright law is written for zombies.

    1. Re:1934 by JustinRLynn · · Score: 5, Funny

      Residuuuuuuaaaaaaaaalllllllllllzzzzzzz!

    2. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gotta pay for brains somehow. There aren't enough new politicians recently, so scarcity is driving up the price.

    3. Re:1934 by norpy · · Score: 5, Informative

      The person who wrote it wrote it as part of a competition for the girl scouts. She is long dead and the scouts sold the rights long ago.

    4. Re:1934 by trentfoley · · Score: 3, Informative

      According to the bbc article:

      Larrikin Music, which is owned by London's Music Sales Group, bought the rights to the classic folk song in 1990, following Sinclair's death in 1988.

    5. Re:1934 by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      He might have been in the early 80's when the song was written.

    6. Re:1934 by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Funny

      Someone made a point that I think made sense......if we're going to have copyright, we ought to not make it based on the life of the creator.....otherwise it will be motivation to kill artists. Make it 15 years from the time it was created or something.

      --
      Qxe4
    7. Re:1934 by Eskarel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Unfortunately no, she's not, or this probably wouldn't have happened as she would likely not have sued. She was however alive in 1981 when they lifted the notes.

      Realistically though, this hasn't exactly been a win for either party. The judge believes they plagiarized the notes(which is fairly obvious when you listen to both works), but he's only ordered them to pay 5% of future profits and royalties back to 2002. While this song is still played, one would presume the vast majority of the revenue it has or ever will generate was generated prior to that date.

      This was always a bit of a funny case since their lead singer is a minister in the current government(he's not actually named in the suit presumably he didn't have righting credits so he's got no financial interest).

    8. Re:1934 by Lord_of_the_nerf · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, the song even references them. "On a hippie trail, head full of zombie."

    9. Re:1934 by demonrob · · Score: 5, Informative

      wrong band. Peter Garrett was Midnight Oil.

    10. Re:1934 by Skrynkelberg · · Score: 1

      Politicians have brains?

    11. Re:1934 by QuantumG · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unfortunately "artists" provide their own reasons for us to want them dead.. often: nagging about copyright.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    12. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woooosh.

    13. Re:1934 by Chrisq · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Someone made a point that I think made sense......if we're going to have copyright, we ought to not make it based on the life of the creator.....otherwise it will be motivation to kill artists. Make it 15 years from the time it was created or something.

      I know this is modded funny, but seriously say you are write a song that sounds like something else and the judge rules that you might have subconsciously copied it. You have a potential bill for millions that will go away if this artist dies....

    14. Re:1934 by deniable · · Score: 2, Informative

      Last I heard, Colin Hay is still touring.

    15. Re:1934 by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      You're right, brain death.

    16. Re:1934 by deniable · · Score: 1

      We need him to take over Defense or Foreign Affairs. I need a press conference that starts 'US forces give the nod.'

    17. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woooosh yourself.

    18. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're probably a delicacy to zombies since they're completely unused.

    19. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      This was always a bit of a funny case since their lead singer is a minister in the current government(he's not actually named in the suit presumably he didn't have righting credits so he's got no financial interest).

      I presume you are referring to the Environment Minister Peter Garrett? He was in Midnight Oil, not Men at Work.

    20. Re:1934 by Yvanhoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Copyright expires 70 years after the death of the author. Yes, this is madness.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    21. Re:1934 by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      Good thing Pachelbel's estate isn't suing.

      Although it would be almost amusing to see what the people push for extended copyrights do for a guy that's been dead for 304 years.

    22. Re:1934 by dbIII · · Score: 1

      It's all part of takeover moves between one record company and another. Those are the zombies, and I approve of taking to them with the nearest chainsaw or lawnmower.

    23. Re:1934 by Vintermann · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ah, poor old George Harrison. But I don't think he'd actually kill anyone over it. He seemed to take it with a certain amount of humour.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    24. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ....Divide world the CIA.....

    25. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This "subconcious copy" thing is why I do not want to learn how to create music. It is too risky in today's climate. If I create some music which sounds somewhat like another piece of music someone else had created before, even if I had never heard it, I could be sued and lose a lot of money.

      And people still say copyright is supposed to encourage creativity...

    26. Re:1934 by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      We need him to take over Defense or Foreign Affairs. I need a press conference that starts 'US forces give the nod.'

      Which sums up the missed opportunity which is our labour government. Employers run the liberals. Unions run labour. For most purposes both camps represent identical interests. Neither wants anything to do with Garrett.

      Better to join the greens than continue as a token green minister in this government. Funny thing is that Rudd was further from the unions than Gillard. He could have given Garrett real power while he had the chance.

    27. Re:1934 by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Someone made a point that I think made sense......if we're going to have copyright, we ought to not make it based on the life of the creator.....otherwise it will be motivation to kill artists.

      No, it was a stupid point then and a stupid point now - hence your 'funny' rating rather than insightful.

      Why is it stupid? Because the only thing to be gained by such a murder is release to the public domain after which there is no competitive advantage to anyone.

      If anything, a fixed copyright duration would encourage such murders by those who will inherit the copyrights since they then will receive whatever income the copyrights generate.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    28. Re:1934 by catmistake · · Score: 1

      They all sound like Hoodoo Gurus to me.

    29. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Jeez, would people stop saying the notes were "sampled" already? The NPR story made the same mistake. The actual flute player in the band played an actual flute -- there was no sampling involved.

    30. Re:1934 by delinear · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The artist in this case is already dead. The rights to the song were sold after her death, and the song that's claimed to be infringing was released before the rights were sold (i.e. the current rights holder bought the song at a point when they had every reason to know of the allegedely infringing song), that still wasn't enough to prevent them having to pay up. This is the kind of crap people are referring to when they say ridiculously long copyright stifles creativity rather than promoting it - seriously, it's one bit of one song that sounds kind of like a tune someone wrote half a decade earlier.

    31. Re:1934 by jmv · · Score: 1

      Oh right, copyright law is written for zombies.

      Of course they are. If we didn't have them, tell me what incentive would zombies have to innovate!

    32. Re:1934 by digitig · · Score: 1

      Apparently the usual defense is to identify some work already in the public domain that also sounds the same. The old joke about people coming out of Andrew Lloyd Webber musicals whistling Puccini would actually be shrewd legal sense on Lloyd Webber's part if only Puccini had been dead a bit longer.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    33. Re:1934 by JustOK · · Score: 1

      Of course they are. If we didn't have them, tell me what incentive would zombies have to innovate!

      brains?

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    34. Re:1934 by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Why is it stupid? Because the only thing to be gained by such a murder is release to the public domain after which there is no competitive advantage to anyone.

      Don't be so quick to call others stupid when you haven't worked out something for yourself, especially when you missed the entire point of a comment.

      You write a song. I write a song which is considered to infringe. I kill you, now there is no one to make a claim of infringement, because you are dead and the copyright term is tied to the length of your life. Now I am free to continue to profit from my song. If no one can prove I have killed you, my career will indeed likely improve due to the notoriety.

      If anything, a fixed copyright duration would encourage such murders by those who will inherit the copyrights since they then will receive whatever income the copyrights generate.

      I agree. The solution, of course, is to abolish copyright, or at least to severely limit its term. Say, five years? If you look at the volume of creative work the world can produce today, there's no reason for such long copyright terms.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    35. Re:1934 by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Look on the bright side, at least they didn't say it was a "mashup".

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    36. Re:1934 by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      If it was digitized, then there was sampling.

      --

      Sampling gets the numb buzz out of music.

    37. Re:1934 by mysidia · · Score: 1

      This is an Australian copyright law issue.

      Thankfully, in the US our copyright has a constitutional basis, and is also restricted in scope by the constitution, and restricted in who rights can be secured for:

      To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.

      Since we only allow limited times, and only allow the rights to be exclusive to the authors and inventors themselves: exclusive Right to their respective writings and discoveries, nothing so foolish would ever be allowed to cut the mustard in the US, right? RIGHT!

    38. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you sure you're not thinking about Midnight Oil (Peter Garrett)?

    39. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you're thinking of Peter Garett of midnight oil.

    40. Re:1934 by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's not usually the artists, who (in the music industry in the US at least) don't hold copyright to their own work. Unless they've changed the law to say differently (and since the corporates are the ones lobbying for copyright extensions and whatnot, I doubt it), the record label holds the copyright, not the artist.

    41. Re:1934 by kjshark · · Score: 1

      Well that and "Muskrat Love". Damn You Captain & Tennille !!!!

      --
      The difference between truth and fiction is that fiction has to be plausible.
    42. Re:1934 by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I know this is modded funny, but seriously say you are write a song that sounds like something else and the judge rules that you might have subconsciously copied it. You have a potential bill for millions that will go away if this artist dies....

      Except the artist doesn't hold copyright, the record label does. And corporations can live for hundreds of years, and are damned hard to kill.

    43. Re:1934 by rjch · · Score: 1

      Politicians have brains?

      Actually I believe that's the point - they don't, therefore they make good bodies for zombies.

    44. Re:1934 by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Did he live up to his promises - to pay his share and to give it back?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    45. Re:1934 by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 1

      It's my understanding that Sinclair held the rights until her death in 1988, which was after the song "Land Down Under" came out (1979 and with the flute riff in 1983, it looks like). However, I can't find an outright statement to this effect. The BBC has a more informative story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment_and_arts/10518787.stm

    46. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One might wonder who should get the residuals when one considers that Kookaburra itself is based on an older Welsh folk tune. http://hoydenabouttown.com/20100204.7225/you-better-run-you-better-take-cover/

    47. Re:1934 by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      Down under was released in the 81. The author of the source of the riff was died in '88.

      I'd say that's fair.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    48. Re:1934 by cgenman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm just waiting for the guy who invented the power chord to sue for the hella dollars he is rightfully owed.

      Music is a cultural artifact. Cultural artifacts inherently build upon eachother, or else they are meaningless. A big part of music litigation is finding that line between building on what someone else has done, and just straight duplicating. That line isn't always clear. And frequently, trial judges aren't the right people to be making that distinction.

    49. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for that link.

    50. Re:1934 by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Someone made a point that I think made sense......if we're going to have copyright, we ought to not make it based on the life of the creator.....otherwise it will be motivation to kill artists.

      This argument pops up all the time and it's so ridiculous that it's hard to see anyone taking it seriously.

      Are you really arguing someone would prefer to commit first degree murder - not to mention pushing the copyrighted work in question into the public domain, thus making it freely available for everyone - over copyright violation ?

    51. Re:1934 by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      You have a potential bill for millions that will go away if this artist dies....

      No it won't. Whether or not you would be committing a crime today is not relevant to whether or not you committed a crime in the past.

    52. Re:1934 by jim_v2000 · · Score: 1

      What does the law have to do with it? The artist signs a contract with the record label, and that contract determines who owns the rights. There's no law that says that the rights automagically belong to the record label.

      --
      Don't take life so seriously. No one makes it out alive.
    53. Re:1934 by Duradin · · Score: 1

      Except that polit-zombies would go "Briiiiiibes! Briiiiiiibes!"

    54. Re:1934 by b1t+r0t · · Score: 1

      I think John Fogerty is a much better example of stupidity. They sued him for making a song that they claimed sounded like another song by him.

      --

      --
      "Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
      "Open source is evil." - Microsoft
    55. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends. How much farther are they going to push punishments for copyright violation? If you are facing a multi-million dollar lawsuit for copyright violation are you willing to risk a few years in jail?

    56. Re:1934 by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      81? it was probably all analog.

    57. Re:1934 by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      You write a song. I write a song which is considered to infringe. I kill you, now there is no one to make a claim of infringement, because you are dead and the copyright term is tied to the length of your life. Now I am free to continue to profit from my song. If no one can prove I have killed you, my career will indeed likely improve due to the notoriety.

      Still stupid.

      (A) Term of copyright now is death+X years. It's never been just death.

      (B) Even if it were just death, the estate of the deceased is still owed any royalties prior to his death - and killing over a song that is not already a hit is no different from killing before even writing a song - there is no guarantee of making any money.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    58. Re:1934 by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      I think John Fogerty is a much better example of stupidity. They sued him for making a song that they claimed sounded like another song by him.

      Yeah, but he won. And got reimbursed for his defense, and set precedent for not requiring the original claim be determined frivolous (thanks to SCOTUS).

      Otherwise ZZ Top might have something to worry about... if the rights to their back catalog ever fell into other hands.

      Michael Jackson even ripped off part of USA For Africa's "We Are the World" for another of his songs (to my ears at least). But then, I think he owned the rights to both of them at the time.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    59. Re:1934 by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      (A) Term of copyright now is death+X years. It's never been just death.

      Yes, and we're talking about a hypothetical in which it's just death. Keep up or shut up.

      (B) Even if it were just death, the estate of the deceased is still owed any royalties prior to his death - and killing over a song that is not already a hit is no different from killing before even writing a song - there is no guarantee of making any money.

      There is never the guarantee of making any money and always the chance of punishment whenever murder is committed, yet people commit murder for profit every day. I don't think that bringing logic into it will help when people are known to make illogical decisions.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    60. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, it very well may be the exact opposite: the Welsh tune is not so old and is actually derived from "Kookaburra".

      The gripping hand is if the Welsh tune had a purchasable copyright, Larrikin Music would've bought that and sued Men at Work, Marion Sinclair's estate, and the girl scouts.

      Of course, none of this should be surprising since Larrakin Music is now owned by the "Happy Birthday" bullies, Warner Music.

    61. Re:1934 by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Informative

      Copyright law has stated that phonorecords are "works for hire" since the 1950s. The way around the law (and how musicians I know do it) is to have your own record label. Sign with Sony and they own your copyrights, unless you have a contract that says Sony gives those rights back. And I can't see any of the greedheads from any of the majors doing that.

      The Beatles never held copyright on any of their works. Michael Jackson wound up holding them when the Beatles' label sold them, and Jackson outbid McCartney with some rediculous sum.

      BTW, you don't OWN a copyright, you HOLD copyright. A copyright is not ownership, it is a free lease on work that belongs to the public, at least according to the US Constitution. YMMV in other countries, same with other aspects of copyright law. Other countries may well allow the artist to hold the copyright. If the Beatles would have recorded under a non-US owned label they might well have retained rights; I don't know what British law says.

    62. Re:1934 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only that but only 2 of the 4 notes were from the song.

    63. Re:1934 by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      It depends. How much farther are they going to push punishments for copyright violation? If you are facing a multi-million dollar lawsuit for copyright violation are you willing to risk a few years in jail?

      You don't spend "a few years in jail" for premeditated murder. You spend a few decades in jail.

    64. Re:1934 by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Yes, and we're talking about a hypothetical in which it's just death. Keep up or shut up.

      Write what you mean - "if we are going to have copyright, we ought to not make it based on life of the creator"
      since we do have copyright that's the context you are writing in
      if that's not enough, you were responding to a post that said copyright is for zombies -- obviously the current life+X.

      There is never the guarantee of making any money and always the chance of punishment whenever murder is committed, yet people commit murder for profit every day. I don't think that bringing logic into it will help when people are known to make illogical decisions.

      Well, you just now said your own idea is stupid because murder is an illogical decision and you don't think bringing logic into it will help.

      I'm done when the other guy starts claiming my point as his own.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    65. Re:1934 by SpaceCadets · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I love him. He plays at a pub in Melbourne frequently I think, though I've never seen him live. Also had a cameo in two (maybe more?) Scrubs episodes as himself, though potentially a figment of JD's imagination.

    66. Re:1934 by PigIronBob · · Score: 1

      "I'm just waiting for the guy who invented the power chord to sue for the hella dollars he is rightfully owed."

      (Link Wray) he passed away recently, well relatively speaking, 2005

      --
      You never catch me alive
    67. Re:1934 by kmoser · · Score: 1

      Make it 15 years from the time it was created or something.

      Naah, that would only give people incentive to invent a time machine so they could jump forward 15 years.

    68. Re:1934 by Meski · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately "artists" provide their own reasons for us to want them dead.. often: nagging about copyright.

      And others provide it by writing and singing.

    69. Re:1934 by bandmassa · · Score: 1

      The "Kookaburra" melody is validly copyright. Larrikan's ownership of it is perfectly legal (if immoral.)

      The problem as I see it is the transcriptions of the two songs they were working off. As a musician, I still have trouble swallowing this judgment on the basis that, to my ears, Colin Hay's flute riff is no closer to the actual melody than an inversion or similar variation of it. If inversions of a tune are covered by that tune's copyright, then copyright really is broken.

      On the subject of the judgment, it's actually a lighter assessment of royalties due than Larrikan's lawyers were trying for.

      --
      "I hope you like Guinness, Sir. I find it a refreshing substitute for, er... food." Col. Jack O'Neil, SG-1
  2. Page not found on link? Here's the bbcnews page by trentfoley · · Score: 2, Informative

    bbcnews.com article with, I guess, the same story - can't tell because original link gives a server generated "Sorry, Page not Found" error

  3. link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
  4. Reminds me of... by Retron · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Reminds me a bit of Bittersweet Symbphony, the Verve song that was deemed to have ripped off an obscure version of The Last Time by the Stones.
    I guess a lot of that goes on, whether intentional or not.

    1. Re:Reminds me of... by beowulfcluster · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Verve sampled that obscure version of the track and licenced the use of it so that wasn't unintentional. I think the problem was the Stones representatives thought they ended up using too much of the sample in the song. They realized this only after the song became a success, of course.

    2. Re:Reminds me of... by deniable · · Score: 1

      A better example would be Vanilla Ice and Queen. If you're too young, move on quickly.

    3. Re:Reminds me of... by albyrne5 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'd always felt that the orchestral string riff in Bittersweet Symphony was a rip-off of Grieg's "In the halls of the Mountain King", but I could never get anyone else to hear the similarity. For me it's very very similar. Strange how music works in the brain!

    4. Re:Reminds me of... by PaladinAlpha · · Score: 1

      Wow. I never thought in a thousand years I'd find someone who agreed with me on this (Bittersweet Symphony = ItHot Mtn King). Truly amazing. Rock on, fellow great mind!

    5. Re:Reminds me of... by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      The string bit in Bittersweet Symphony sounds pretty much exactly the same as the orchestral Stones part, it's not just inspired by it or vaguely similar.

      Incidentally, I always assumed the relevant hook in Down Under was a deliberate tribute to/echo of Kookabura Sits in the old gum tree, who knew that song wasn't just a traditional folk song?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    6. Re:Reminds me of... by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      I've never thought of that before but now that you mention it, it is very similar. Totally different feel to it though...

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    7. Re:Reminds me of... by Swampash · · Score: 1

      It wasn't "ripped off", it WAS a recording of the Stones with Ashcroft singing dubbed over the top.

    8. Re:Reminds me of... by philj · · Score: 1

      Indeed, very sad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitter_Sweet_Symphony#Song_credits They had permission to use the sample, but the song got popular and the Stones got greedy (like they need the money).

    9. Re:Reminds me of... by Insightfill · · Score: 1

      Reminds me a bit of Bittersweet Symbphony, the Verve song that was deemed to have ripped off an obscure version of The Last Time by the Stones.

      Of course, the stones ripped the song off of The Staple Sisters, too, who who got it off of Muddy Waters, who got it off of...

      Check out the wiki article on the Stones version, where Richards tells where he got it. Also check out this video from "Rip! A Remix Manifesto" where they show and play the song as it progress through the years.

    10. Re:Reminds me of... by ZJ+AJ · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, they didn't "rip it off," they sampled it directly - for which they asked and received permission to do so, and allocated 50% of the royalties to Jagger and Richards. ABKCO (representing the Stones) later claimed that, while they did give permission for sampling in exchange for half the royalties, the Verve used more of the song than they had originally agreed to, and asked for (and got) 100% of the royalties.

      And all of this happened contemporaneously with the popularity of the song, not 20+ years later.

      So, really, nothing like this case at all.

    11. Re:Reminds me of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A better example would be Vanilla Ice and Queen. If you're too young, move on quickly.

      Back in my day you could stop, collaborate, and listen without getting sued.

      Get off my lawn.

    12. Re:Reminds me of... by liquidsin · · Score: 1

      will it ever stop? yo, i don't know....

      --
      do not read this line twice.
    13. Re:Reminds me of... by deniable · · Score: 1

      Word to your mother.

    14. Re:Reminds me of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except The Verve thought they had licences the section properly but they were wrong in that they licenced a cover version not the original by the Rolling Stones. They were then sued by the music industry equivalent of a patent troll (who'd bought the Rolling Stone's back catalogue) and lost. This troll then did a major fuck you to The Verve and sold the rights to Bitter Sweet Symphony to a sports company. The case then when to the Court of Human Rights where the troll had to revoke the rights.

    15. Re:Reminds me of... by albyrne5 · · Score: 1

      Hahaha, OK looks like it's a sign from above that we have to collaborate on a tune!

  5. is the guy who wrote this even still alive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    The original author is dead a few years now according the the linked article.

    1. Re:is the guy who wrote this even still alive? by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      Are you complaining that the copyright is too long or saying his family shouldn't be collecting after death?

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    2. Re:is the guy who wrote this even still alive? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His family's not collecting anyway; some corporation bought the rights a couple years after he died. Not that it should matter whether the rights are owned by a widow and orphans or "big music" -- equality before the law and all -- just stating the facts.

  6. The Lyrics by Anthony · · Score: 5, Informative
    Kookaburra sits in the old gum tree
    Merry merry king of the bush is he
    Laugh kookaburra laugh kookaburra
    Gay you life must be.

    Sung to the flute riff on "Land Down Under"

    --
    Slashdot: Where nerds gather to pool their ignorance
    1. Re:The Lyrics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop! Are you trying to get sued? :P

    2. Re:The Lyrics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The version I learnt in school went...

      Kookaburra sits in the old gum tree
      Fucking all the sparrows he can see
      No, Kookaburra! No, Kookaburra!
      That one's got V.D.

  7. Well, in truth..... by Lord_of_the_nerf · · Score: 5, Funny

    .....Men at Work do come from a land down under, where women glow and lawyers plunder.

    1. Re:Well, in truth..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This'll teach Colin Hay for deciding to start his own label.

    2. Re:Well, in truth..... by A_Non_Moose · · Score: 1

      .....Men at Work do come from a land down under, where women glow and lawyers plunder.

      leaving us with a slack jaw, and not much to say...

      --
      Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
    3. Re:Well, in truth..... by natehoy · · Score: 1

      I said to the lawyer "do you speaka my language?"

      He just smiled and gave me an alphabet sandwich.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    4. Re:Well, in truth..... by lollacopter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      travelling in my tricked out combie
      on a, bullshit trial, bird in a gum tree,
      i met a strange lawyer, he made me nervous
        he took my songs and stole my breakfast

                      and i said oh! you come from a land down under?
                      where you write a song and a man can plunder
                      when you hear does it make you wonder?
                      you mustn't hum, you mustn't play covers

      got sued by a man down under
      (he had), some copyrights and my song he plundered
      i said do you speak(a) my language?
      he just smiled and gave me a legalese sandwich,

                      and i said oh! you come from a land down under?
                      where you write a song and a man can plunder
                      when you hear does it make you wonder?
                      you mustn't hum, you mustn't play covers

      Dying in a den in Bombay
      (with a) slack jaw, and not much to say
      i said to the man "are you trying to exempt me
      from playing my tune in a land of plenty ? "

                      and he said NO! you stole that riff down under
                      the flute solo it makes me wonder
                      these rights we bought to plunder
                      the tunes you make in a land down under

  8. Even If They Lose the Appeal... by akahige · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...This has got to be seen as a win for the band. They have to pay royalties back to 2002... which is >20 years since the song was released and became a monster hit. Surely its earnings potential has slacked off some since then. Imagine how bad it would be if they had to come up with royalties back to its heyday...

    1. Re:Even If They Lose the Appeal... by Namarrgon · · Score: 4, Informative

      Even with only 5% royalties and six years, that's apparently still a six-figure sum.

      Wouldn't have guessed they were still averaging $333K+ a year in royalties. I can see why these aging rockers tend to fight for copyright extensions.

      --
      Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
    2. Re:Even If They Lose the Appeal... by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Informative

      The copyright holder was asking for 60% of royalties, and the judge decided that was a ridiculous amount, so reduced to 5%. Still is a bit much, but it could have been quite a lot worse.

    3. Re:Even If They Lose the Appeal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So I if someone kick you in the teeth you will see that as a win since they could have shot you instead?

      Seriously, this is based on a similarity so vague that no one noticed it for more than twenty years! After hearing the "original" I've realised that this is not just a loss for the band, it could easily set precedence to be a serious problem for all aussie songwriters. After all, I know of lots of famous songs which is at least as similar to each other as these two are

    4. Re:Even If They Lose the Appeal... by grouchomarxist · · Score: 1

      In 2008 it was used in an advertising campaign for Qantas, so that might be where a big chunk of the royalties come from.

  9. Precedent... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They wrote the song in 1981, and reissued it in 1982, well before the creator's death and subsquent sale of the song to Larrikin. This may set a very bad precedent, since new owners won't always honour agreements predating their ownership.

    1. Re:Precedent... by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      I would expect that copyright agreements (at least the formal ones, written down and so) are part of a deal when selling a copyright.

      Secondly it seems in this case there was no agreement between the band and the tune's copyright holder (I wouldn't be surprised if while writing they never thought such a popular, widely sung children's song had copyright issues in the first place).

  10. BROKEN LINK by scdeimos · · Score: 1

    It should be:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/07/06/2945781.htm

    Plus, this news did the rounds in Australia months ago - don't know why ABC is reporting it just now.

    1. Re:BROKEN LINK by scdeimos · · Score: 1

      Ah, replying to my own comment 'n' all...

      The case was decided July 2009 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/30/2640727.htm), they've only just determined compensation now.

    2. Re:BROKEN LINK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The court case was decided a few months ago but did not determine damages.

      Now damages have been decided and got reported.

    3. Re:BROKEN LINK by Sulphur · · Score: 2, Funny

      After it made the rounds, it made the squares.

      --

      A mullet is what pattern baldness does to an afro.

  11. Nine billion names of God by Yergle143 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why don't all you "Pirates" come together and write a computer program to generate all possible melodies for the 32 bar AABA, form. Then publish the whole lot under the creative commons license or whatever, call western music complete, and then download in peace.

    Also these lawsuits are always bunk. Noone ever sues over the harmony do they?

    1. Re:Nine billion names of God by Zironic · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well, atleast Swedish copyright law states explicitly that machine generated things can't be copyrighted because they're not creative.

    2. Re:Nine billion names of God by madpansy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nice try RIAA. You're telling gullible nerds to generate all possible melodies and publish them, only to come in and sue them for the melodies which are already copyrighted.

    3. Re:Nine billion names of God by dangitman · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, atleast Swedish copyright law states explicitly that machine generated things can't be copyrighted because they're not creative.

      But what about the mutterings of muppet chefs?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    4. Re:Nine billion names of God by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      He said 'all permutation'

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    5. Re:Nine billion names of God by richlv · · Score: 1

      but you claim you composed them manually...

      --
      Rich
    6. Re:Nine billion names of God by jimicus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's no need.

      By the time you discount all the combinations which sound terrible, you'll have substantially fewer permutations to create. Now, go to any major record company's corporate website and dig out the details for how many songs they claim to hold the copyright to.

      It's more-or-less mathematically impossible to write a song today which doesn't have at least a couple of bars which sound like something else. 99 times out of 100, this is a non-issue (either because your song winds up sounding like something that nobody has either heard of or cares about, or because it sounds so obviously like something so fantastically well-known that nobody for one minute - not even the bottom-feeders at the RIAA - believes you'd have been stupid enough to rip it off)

      The other 1 time out of 100, you wind up with something like this happening.

    7. Re:Nine billion names of God by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, atleast Swedish copyright law states explicitly that machine generated things can't be copyrighted because they're not creative.

      Step 1. Machine generate every possibly melody
      Step 2. Register the copyrights in a country which is not Sweden and is a signatory to one or more multi-lateral copyright treaties
      Step 3. Apply for the international copyrights
      Step 4. ????
      Step 5. Call western music complete

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    8. Re:Nine billion names of God by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Does that mean that if I machine-generate a song that is quite similar to an existing one, I can't be sued for copyright violation?

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    9. Re:Nine billion names of God by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Does that mean that if I machine-generate a song that is quite similar to an existing one, I can't be sued for copyright violation?

      Nothing much short of human extinction can accomplish that. Chuckle. So while it is virtually certain you will get sued for it, the question is whether they would win that lawsuit against you. Copying is an essential foundation to an infringement claim. For example there was a case where a song had some of the name notes as an earlier song. There was no evidence of deliberate copying, but the earlier song was popular and the later artist had certainly heard it. In civil court the standard is "preponderance of the evidence", whichever side convinces the court more than 50% that they are right. The fact that the later artist almost certainly had heard the song, and the extent of the similarity, was enough for the judge to conclude greater than 50% that the later artist had unintentionally/subconsciously copied those notes.

      So it doesn't even need to be machine generated. If you can establish a preponderance of the evidence that you probably never heard the song or otherwise that there was no copying, then the law says you should win.

      As long as you did not directly or indirectly enter the older song into your machine that powerfully establishes that there was no copying. However the courts will take an extremely dim view on any steps you make trying to get your machine to mimic any one or more existing songs. If you are trying to do this then you are going to be toast. If you come up with some objective scientific analysis defining of what sorts of note sequences sound best to the human ear and you direct your computer to generate the top ten best sounding note sequences, and some of those happen to already have been used by other songs, then you should be legally in the clear. Where "legally in the clear" means you're gonna get sued but the law is on your side.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    10. Re:Nine billion names of God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...machine generated things can't be copyrighted because they're not creative.

      Can we apply this to auto-tuned singing?

    11. Re:Nine billion names of God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excellent. That means you can do this post-factum to prove that the pattern you used is not sufficiently creative to be copyrighted.

    12. Re:Nine billion names of God by tepples · · Score: 1

      The fact that the later artist almost certainly had heard the song, and the extent of the similarity, was enough for the judge to conclude greater than 50% that the later artist had unintentionally/subconsciously copied those notes.

      Say I write a song the old fashioned way, record it, and sell copies. What steps should I take, either before or after publication, to avoid having to pay damages for plagiarism* close to or greater than my net worth?

      * Meaning infringement without credit.

    13. Re:Nine billion names of God by Nova32 · · Score: 1

      So the correct response is to find a child raised by wolves in some large forest in the united states. Isolate this child, exposing him to no music except that in the public domain. Teach him how to write music, and then have HIM compose this work containing all possible note combinations and license it under the public domain. Once you're done serving your time for charges of child abuse, we'll be free of this nonsense!

    14. Re:Nine billion names of God by shadowrat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How shortsighted. Everyone knows the next generation's music sounds terrible. If you throw away the terrible pieces, you are throwing away your chance to make money off your kids.

    15. Re:Nine billion names of God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Step 4. Get sued by every existing copyright holder for copyright violation
      Step 5. Bankruptcy

    16. Re:Nine billion names of God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then it should really follow that nothing that can be stored on a computer should be under copyright, since they are but numbers, just really big ones. All one has to do to generate them is to let the computer count far enough, eventually every single piece of culture that would go under copyright would have been generated. IMO this is one of the best arguments against the concept of intellectual property. The absurdity of owning integers should be clear to anyone.

    17. Re:Nine billion names of God by Zironic · · Score: 1

      As long as you don't appear to have done it on purpose you usually just have to pay royalties don't you? I can't remember reading about punitive damages happening very often.

    18. Re:Nine billion names of God by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Also these lawsuits are always bunk. Noone ever sues over the harmony do they?

      Well, his wikipedia page doesn't mention lawsuits.

    19. Re:Nine billion names of God by The+Wild+Norseman · · Score: 1

      By the time you discount all the combinations which sound terrible...

      Well, that was easy.

      --
      "A government is a body of people usually -- notably -- ungoverned." -Shepherd Book
    20. Re:Nine billion names of God by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      That won't work. They've gone after people for infringing works of which they were not previously aware. With copyright durations these days, one person could unknowingly infringe on the work of another and not even be a contemporary (i.e. never simultaneously alive).

      The modern outcome of Close Encounters of the Third Kind would be the aliens being sued for copyright infringement over their 5-note greeting because it matched some progression in a disco-era song.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    21. Re:Nine billion names of God by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Good news and bad news. The bad news is that there aren't really any reasonable ways to rule out the possibility of getting sued. The good news is that (at least under US law) this situation pretty much treated as a legitimate business practice. Artists can and often do release cover versions of other people's songs. There is a specific statutory license permitting anyone to copy the lyrics and sheet music of any released song without needing to ask permission. The law calls it the "mechanical royalty rate" and it's currently 9.1 cents per copy (or 1.75 cents per minute for a song longer than 5.2 minutes). That statutory license does not cover any copying of recorded sound, so an artist needs to play their own instruments and preform their own vocals. Of course that perfectly covers any issue of unintentional copying lyric/note copying when you make your own music.

      I think the worst case, if you couldn't negotiate a lower settlement, would be to just claim the statutory license and pay the 9.1 cent per copy rate. If your song went gold with a million copies sold that would be $91,000. That's obviously not chump change, but it's probably not catastrophic if you hit gold record status. If you choose not to take that route and you let them sue you in court they would have to choose between claiming statutory damages or actual damages. Statutory damages go from a normal $750 minimum to a normal $30,000 maximum unless the they meets the burden of proving the infringement was willful, in which case the maximum would rise to $150,000. So the statutory maximum in your example would presumably be $30,000. Their other option is to claim actual damages which essentially means claiming the baseline 9.1 cents per copy cited above. However if the copying was unintentional and it only composed of a fractional part of your combined lyrics&notes then the judge may decide the actual damages are only a fraction of the 9.1 cents-per-copy rate for copying an entire song. So you can probably just insist upon a fractional rate back in the settlement phase.

      I guess the back royalty could exceed your current net worth if you already spent all your past profits without accumulating much of value. Handy financial tip: if you strike it rich don't be so quick to blow it all on cocaine and hookers :)

      I'm not actually a lawyer so it's certainly possible I've overlooked some aspect of the issue.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  12. Schools? + Broken link by grim-one · · Score: 1

    "Let's hope the primary schools are up to date with their ARIA license fees!" How did schools come into this? It's a band making royalties and profit from a musical arrangement written by someone else, possibly even sampled directly from a recording (according to the summary). Oh, and the article link appears broken

    1. Re:Schools? + Broken link by ashridah · · Score: 1

      Because when i was growing up, the tune 'kookaburra sits in an old gum tree' was a staple of my primary school activities. And i'm willing to bet we were singing it without a license. And we all know how brain-dead the recording industries are (Australia's is just as bad, if not worse, than the US's, in some respects.)

    2. Re:Schools? + Broken link by grim-one · · Score: 1

      Singing it at a school performance may fall under fair use - but my point was you and the school would be making neither profit nor royalties from these performances. Applying the Justice's decision here would not be useful as there's nothing to take a share of.

    3. Re:Schools? + Broken link by HJED · · Score: 1

      Schools (or at least public schools, I'm not sure) in Australia are allowed to perform and photocopy music providing they have an original copy.

      --
      null
    4. Re:Schools? + Broken link by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      Apparently the Girl Guides owned the rights to the song for 26 years, up until 1968, at which point they were sold or transfered. So you'd have to be more specific about what year you sung the song for slashdot to really know how much you owe these guys.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    5. Re:Schools? + Broken link by Darinbob · · Score: 2, Informative

      Note that the "Happy Birthday" song is also under copyright, and the owners in the last decade or so have gotten quite insistent about being paid for it. Which is why you don't hear that song sung much anymore. Even those cheezy theme restaurants that try to embarrass you on your birthday since their own birthday songs instead. I'm no longer in kindergarten (for a few years now) but I suspect they don't sing it much in schools anymore either.

    6. Re:Schools? + Broken link by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      I work in one, and we do.

      Unless he's totally insane, he'll never ask for royalties from schools. You can probably imagine what will happen it hits the local news that 7 year olds with special educational needs have to pay royalties to sing Happy Birthday to a fellow pupil.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    7. Re:Schools? + Broken link by delinear · · Score: 1

      I'll bet schools do this all the time, I remember when I was at school we used to sing stuff which I'm sure is still under copyright today (I remember singing Beatles songs like Eleanor Rigby, for instance). This almost certainly falls under the draconian rules around public performance, I wonder if the **AAs are just biding their time or if even they realise that suing a school is going to look bad for them. Seriously, though, if we have to have such strict laws they should be made to enforce them consistently (i.e. you don't get away with illegal downloading because you're the kid of a label executive) - as much as that would suck, at least maybe then the average person would speak out more against them, instead of the current system where nobody knows whether they'll get sued at any point for something utterly trivial.

    8. Re:Schools? + Broken link by delinear · · Score: 1

      Surely everyone who is present to hear the rendition counts as a lost sale. Number of singers * number of listeners * reasonable amount (let's say $15,000) per song = sue frenzy. I can only imagine not even the labels are greedy enough to commit the public image suicide of suing school kids for singing in assembly.

    9. Re:Schools? + Broken link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, enforcing copyright (that should long be expired) is certainly one way to kill your work. One day "Happy Birthday" will be forgotten. Quite the legacy for the song writer, eh?

    10. Re:Schools? + Broken link by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Actually, "Happy Birthday" is probably not under copyright, but Warner Chappell (the company that claims to own the copyright) is ready to sue people for infringement and nobody has been willing to spend the money for the court fight. The basis for Warner Chappell's claim is a song book published in 1935. The problem with that claim is that the song has been documented as being published in 1918. Additionally, there is question as to whether the song was an original work to begin with. However, the song is still a prime example of what is wrong with current copyright law.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    11. Re:Schools? + Broken link by matria · · Score: 1

      Most schools would have this in their music songbooks, so they would be covered. However, I first sang it in 4-H camp in 1963, and we had no books. The camp counselors and a few of the other kids just sang it and the rest of us learned it.

    12. Re:Schools? + Broken link by agrif · · Score: 1

      Having just left high school, I can say that at least around here, it's still sung in schools.

      It was a tradition in the high school orchestra to have the director play an elaborate, chorded (but recognizable) "Happy Birthday" on the piano while the rest of the class sang. Cheezy, yeah, but it actually helped with team-building.

    13. Re:Schools? + Broken link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, I first sang it in 4-H camp in 1963, and we had no books. The camp counselors and a few of the other kids just sang it and the rest of us learned it.

      Ah the original P2P piracy!

    14. Re:Schools? + Broken link by daeglo · · Score: 1

      Given that my school (in the USA) had to throw out many of their photocopied sheet music and and purchase brand new official copies back around 1995/96, I would say not. That and the amount of sheet music we would have to buy for the advanced music classes.... In the USA, not fair use, apparently.

  13. Perversion of the law's intent by bteed · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Copyright law was originally intended to contribute to the arts by incentivizing creation with a temporary monopoly for the creator. Hands up whoever thinks Ms Sinclair wouldn't have written this song if she knew some company 75 years later weren't able to get a cut of something they had absolutely no part in creating.

    1. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by TouchAndGo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We can primarily thank Disney for that

    2. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      I think we need to separate Disney the creator and Disney the business corporation...

    3. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by gilroy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, I've never seen anything justifying such a separation. Old Walt could be pretty ruthless, too.

    4. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Asic+Eng · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well it's not that easy, I think. Someone like Christopher Reuel Tolkien (age 85) is still publishing - at that age you are more likely to be interested in earning money for your family or descendents rather than yourself. That in turn might only be possible if you are able to sell or transfer the rights to the work in some way. Still - 25 years after creation should be plenty of time to profit from the work and be a reasonable not to interfere with it becoming part of our culture and derivative works to be created. Of course Men At Work would then no longer earn any royalties on the song either.

    5. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by LordLucless · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It gets worse. She donated her rights to the song to the Libraries Board of South Australia a year before she died. They then sold the rights to a corporation, which is now suing Men at Work.

      So she even tried to donate it to the public good, and its still being used to score free money for people not involved in its creation.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    6. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      Except he's dead, so he can't exactly be blamed for continuing policies.

    7. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by dkf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well it's not that easy, I think. Someone like Christopher Reuel Tolkien (age 85) is still publishing - at that age you are more likely to be interested in earning money for your family or descendents rather than yourself. That in turn might only be possible if you are able to sell or transfer the rights to the work in some way.

      That's why the right needs to be transferrable, even though that leads to some abuses. Still, there's no need for the length of time to be very long; shortening it would encourage copyright holders that want to monetize their efforts to get on with it rather than sitting around gazing at their navels.

      Still - 25 years after creation should be plenty of time to profit from the work and be a reasonable not to interfere with it becoming part of our culture and derivative works to be created.

      Precisely.

      Of course Men At Work would then no longer earn any royalties on the song either.

      They can always record another version, which will have its own copyright. That's just got nothing to do with the copyright term on the original.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    8. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Spad · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sorry, no. My children do not have any right to continue to earn money from my work, nor do the executors of my estate or any other 3rd party who might be in my will.

      The absolute maximum that copyright should ever be is the life of the author, though frankly that's far too much as it is. I don't get to write one program and then sit back and earn royalties off it every time someone runs it, I have to keep writing new ones to make a living just like almost every other industry anywhere, so why the hell should musicians get to write one song and then live off it for the rest of their lives?

    9. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by MichaelSmith · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This shows what a great thing the internet is, provided that we defend it. Ten or 20 years ago you had to trust organisations like libraries to take care of donated product. Now you can just slap a GFDL header on the sheet music and post it to wikipedia. Done.

    10. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      Whooosh.

      "Someone like Christopher Reuel Tolkien (age 85) is still publishing."
      If the copyright only lasted to his death, which may be any time from 0 to 10 years, given average age of expiry, do you really think that's really an incentive for creating works?

    11. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by scdeimos · · Score: 1

      If the copyright only lasted to his death, which may be any time from 0 to 10 years, given average age of expiry, do you really think that's really an incentive for creating works?

      Yes. He's gotta pay his bills like the rest of us. And occasionally he might like to take a holiday.

    12. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by RedWizzard · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well it's not that easy, I think. Someone like Christopher Reuel Tolkien (age 85) is still publishing - at that age you are more likely to be interested in earning money for your family or descendents rather than yourself.

      But why should certain professions even have this ability to generate ongoing income for their descendants? Joe Taxi-driver can only invest the money he makes during his lifetime to provide ongoing income. Other artists such as painters and sculptors don't get ongoing income from their work. Why should some authors and entertainers be treated differently?

    13. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, no. My children do not have any right to continue to earn money from my work

      Fuck you, Dad.

    14. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by delinear · · Score: 1

      Indeed. The company that ironically plundered every child's tale they could lay their hands on and then used the massive profits from that to ensure nobody else can ever do unto them what they did unto others.

    15. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      Not to excuse them, but they are one out of many, many. You don't have to be big to be evil.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    16. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Christopher Tolkien is actually the best example of how to do things right without copyright for zombies. His father wrote some good stuff, but Christopher didn't just sit back and let the royalties roll in, he used what his father left him to keep producing.

      If artists want to provide for their children, they should give them a good education and help them become self-sufficient, maybe leave them something to work with.

    17. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      His body may be dead, but his head is still alive and is attached to a horrible tentacled machine that he uses to eat Cuban children.

      ref: Robot Chicken

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    18. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by themacks · · Score: 1

      They can generate ongoing income because they created something of value to others. Artists most definitely can get royalties if they produce something that others license from them. More than likely if you buy a painting in a store it isn't an original but a licensed reproduction. Joe Taxi-driver is making money from providing a service, if he stops providing the service he stops making money.

      --
      i read about it in a blog once
    19. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1

      Well - the taxi driver receives his income immediately, getting all his money in a lump sum. Authors (potentially) get paid over a period of time, as their books are sold. So if you were to set copyright e.g. for 25 years, then the income over that time would be considered the total income for the book. If the author dies after 17 years, then his children can inherit the savings from that time and the income for the remaining 8 years. Just as the taxi driver can pass all his savings to his descendants, an author should be able to do that, as well.

    20. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Deleted (not noteworthy)

    21. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Tisha_AH · · Score: 1

      That offends me on many levels. She created the song for the Girl Guides and it was sung around campfires in Australia, NZ, UK and the US for decades. She never thought of applying for a copyright so she could collect royalties from every Girl Guides group. She then donated the song to the Libraries Board who in turn, sold the rights.

      I would have less of an issue with this if the money was going to the Girl Guides to build camps (the original intent). Instead it has been hijacked by a money grubbing corporation as a means of stealing money from another money grubbing corporation.

      Remind me after I die to not leave anything to a group who will in turn sell it like used pottery at a flea market.

      --
      Tisha Hayes
    22. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      For most works, your copyright term is longer than that proposed by the poster you replied to. Personally, I think that something around 20-30 years makes good sense. However, something that has been proposed on here from time to time looks to me like something that could get passed and would work almost as well (unfortunately, I don't think a truly time limited copyright could be passed into law anytime in the near future). The idea is that initially copyright would have a limited term (7, 14, 28 years, or something less than 30). At the end of that time the copyright holder would have the option of extending the copyright for a limited time (I favor an additional 7 years) for a fee. Every time the copyright reached its expiration, the copyright holder could buy an extension but the fee would rise by at least a factor of 10. This would allow companies that are built on exploiting the value of certain copyright works to continue to hold the copyright for as long as it is economically feasible but force them to release the copyright on things that they are no longer making money from. Once a copyright was allowed to expire, that's it, the work in question is public domain for all time.
      I suspect that we would see a significant diminishment in the value of works staying under copyright in this type of system because secondary works that were allowed to enter the public domain because they wee not popular enough to pay the copyright renewal fees would eclipse the big hits after the secondary works entered the public domain.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    23. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We can continue attributing blame to him for his life + 75 years. His rules, not mine

    24. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by ricosalomar · · Score: 1

      There is a difference between a recording of a work and the work itself though.
      If I recorded the song, I wouldn't get royalties from it *(actually, I might get performance royalties, depending on collective bargaining agreements between complicated jurisdictions. But they are frighteningly small).
      I _could_ make money from selling the CD, but I would have to pay the copyright holder his/her cut.I would continue to do so until copyrights ended (25 years in this hypothetical case).
      After that, re-recording is just like making a record of Bach's music; nobody gets much in the way of royalties, just performance, wich is tiny, and more akin to residuals.
      So the original creator doesn't get to reset the copyright by simply re-recording.

      *As an example, I just got a check from the AFM (Musician's Union) for _performance_ royalties because a song I played on is in RockBand II.
      $230

      Drinks on me

    25. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Tenek · · Score: 1

      A copyright that expires with the author... I'll take Perverse Incentives for $1000, Alex.

    26. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by thijsh · · Score: 1

      Hehe, sheet music not noteworthy... made me chuckle.

    27. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Nova32 · · Score: 1

      you do, however, have to be big to buy legislation, which is what is being discussed. It isn't cheap.

    28. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by multipartmixed · · Score: 1

      > Of course Men At Work would then no longer earn any royalties on the song either.

      If that had happened, it's possible that the MAFIAA would have authorized the creation of good music after 1990. As it stands now, they are still sampling copyrighted music from the 1970s and 1980s for their new "works".

      --

      Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
    29. Re:Perversion of the law's intent by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      If you are well-organized, and no one knows much about your issue, you can buy legislation for cheap. Blank-media taxes giving gravy to composer's associations, for instance, were pushed through in many countries as cassette tapes appeared, and that was more because of composer's organizations rather than individual owners.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
  14. Give us break. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fer chis sakes, the guy who brings us the Aussie news via kayak just got here!

  15. Shirley, it. must. be. a. mistake. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Jump down the shelters to get away
    The boys are cockin' up their guns
    Tell us general, is it party time?
    If it is can we all come

    Don't think that we don't know
    Don't think that we're not trying
    Don't think we move too slow
    It's no use after crying
    Saying

    It's a mistake, it's a mistake
    It's a mistake, it's a mistake

    After the laughter as died away
    And all the boys have had their fun
    No surface noise now, not much to say
    They've got the bad guys on the run

    Don't try to say you're sorry
    Don't say he drew his gun
    They've gone and grabbed old Ronnie
    He's not the only one saying

    It's a mistake, it's a mistake
    It's a mistake, it's a mistake

    Tell us commander, what do you think?
    'Cos we know that you love all that power
    Is it on then, are we on the brink?
    We wish you'd all throw in the towel

    We'll not fade out too soon
    Not in this finest hour
    Whistle your favourite tune
    We'll send a card and flower
    Saying

    It's a mistake, it's a mistake
    It's a mistake, it's a mistake

    They should have GPLed it. Creative Commonsed it. They should have Free-BSDed it. They should have Apachied it. That should have Microsoft Open Source Licensed it. They should have not done that.

    1. Re:Shirley, it. must. be. a. mistake. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only goes to show, stupid people really are stupid all the time. What in the world has any of that got to do with any of this? What is this doing on /. anyway is beside the point. Oh, right, copyright, and how it's evil UNLESS it's the GPL, then it's from God (who goes by the initials RMS in some circles).

    2. Re:Shirley, it. must. be. a. mistake. by delinear · · Score: 1

      You're a little confused. Nobody thinks the GPL isn't evil, we merely recognise it's a necessary evil, to prevent us all getting screwed over by the unecessary evil of unfair copyright.

    3. Re:Shirley, it. must. be. a. mistake. by daeglo · · Score: 1

      I can't find the reference, but I'm pretty RMS himself has described the GPL as a necessary evil.

  16. Too many notes! by xixax · · Score: 1

    I particularly like this report about the judgement where "the flute riff made up only 5.8 per cent" of the song. Five point eight percent? You have got to be kidding me!

    It speaks volumes when the legal system must resort to distillation and quantification of art to such spurious accuracy. It reeks of the text book explainging the linear programming of poetry that gets ripped up in Dead Poets Society or the King of Austria as portrayed in Amadeus, "And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Just cut a few and it will be perfect!".

    Xix.

    --
    "Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
    1. Re:Too many notes! by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      That wasn't the Emperor, it was one of his ministers. Franz Joseph told Mozart to put the music back. Not that this invalidates your point, mind you, but it's a nit that needed picking.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    2. Re:Too many notes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's only time-based percentage.

      consider the percentage of the audible spectrum taken by the flute instrument while it is playing (over all the other instruments after all) and you'll have 5% of that again. music is hard to measure... the closer you look the less there is.

    3. Re:Too many notes! by scdeimos · · Score: 1

      Since we're picking nits 'n' all... for the exact quote given:

      • GP said King
      • you said it wasn't the Emperor it was one of his ministers (true, Direktor did suggest "too many notes", but the quote is not from him), and
      • the movie script says it was Emperor Joseph II.

      But who's to say?

    4. Re:Too many notes! by mbone · · Score: 1

      I think you are mixing up the reception to the Abduction from the Seraglio (where the "too many notes" occurred, supposedly said by Joseph II, first recounted in an early Mozart biography) and the production of the Marriage of Figaro (the "put it back moment," recounted in da Ponte's memoirs). Both of these have historical grounding, but of course, both are also disputed (little of note about Mozart's life isn't).

      While the plot of Amadeus is pretty unhistorical, many of its incidents have some historical grounding, and that is the case for these two incidents.

      By the way, this was before copyright, and Mozart only received a flat fee for the Abduction, and I believe for Figaro as well. This failure to receive royalties obviously hindered him from creating any subsequent works of note.

    5. Re:Too many notes! by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      I hope there's an invisible sarcasm tag around the last line, but you never know with the internets.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    6. Re:Too many notes! by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I'd say the flute riff was half the song, if you took it out you'd only have the chorus to remember.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    7. Re:Too many notes! by mbone · · Score: 1

      Of course.

    8. Re:Too many notes! by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      It's fairly easy to get an accurate number for the proportion of the song that is the Kookaburra riff. Take the number of notes in the riff, divide it by the total number of notes in the whole song, and you end up with 5.8%

  17. Perhaps copyright needs to be more like trademarks by Solandri · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Trademarks can be lost if they become common generic terms in the language. It happened with Aspirin, Escalator, Zipper, Thermos, and Yo-yo. It almost happened to Kleenex and Xerox, and could happen to Google ("why don't you google it?").

    Perhaps copyright needs a similar exception. If your song/phrase/work becomes an iconic symbol of something else (in this case, Australia), then clearly the benefit to society of not having it protected by copyright outweighs the author's right to profit off it. So it should lose its copyright.

  18. Just a by the dub by Frogbert · · Score: 1

    The song was written by a Scott.

    1. Re:Just a by the dub by Elky+Elk · · Score: 1

      Someone called Scott? or a Scot.

  19. The song by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    In case anyone is curious, here is the offending song. The part that I believe caught them starts at 1:55. Hard to know if they had the original song in mind when they wrote it or not.

    --
    Qxe4
    1. Re:The song by saiha · · Score: 1

      I would bet that the "creator" got part of his tune from previous songs he heard, its just that we don't have sufficient records from that time.

    2. Re:The song by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      I think they knew what they were doing. I mean, look at the music video for Land Down Under. At the point where the riff does the part equivalent to 'Kookaburra sits in the old gum tree...', the flautist is, in fact, sitting in a gum tree.

    3. Re:The song by Techman83 · · Score: 1

      Well it wasn't in the song originally, it was added later. Load of bollocks either way.

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i cat
      Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
    4. Re:The song by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Based on what I've heard from the song "Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gum Tree" on YouTube videos, the point of contention is that the pan flute riff in "Down Under" is nearly identical to the the note phrasing used in the former. I found a snipped from an Australian news show that attempts to highlight this

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCyB2l5wqLE&feature=related

      Yes, you have to stretch your imagination a bit to achieve the comparison but, if you reduce it down to simple notes you get

      G-G-G-G-G-H--G-G-F--D--F--D--

      I would have thought that a fair use argument would have prevailed here as, in Men at Work's track, the use of the similar eleven note riff only occurs a few times.

      The sticking point seems to be that the childrens song is so short in duration that it was likely argued that the use fell foul of the "amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole" test

      Whether Colin Hay, Greg Ham et al were subliminally influenced by the children's song, or whether they intentionally used the riff is something only they will know.

      What strikes me as odd is that Marion Sinclair was alive when Men at Work released the song and didn't object at the time.

      What also strikes me as very odd is that, if Marion did indeed sell the rights to her composition to Larrikin before her death in 1988... why on earth did Larrikin take twenty-one years to file suit??

    5. Re:The song by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Good point though I suppose most people thought "Kookaburra sits in the old gum tree" was written so long ago that a claim was unlikely. I certainly thought so.

    6. Re:The song by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      What strikes me as odd is that the statute of limitations did not kick in, or perhaps this is why the damages are limited to post 2002.

    7. Re:The song by Zironic · · Score: 1

      Yeh, most people don't stop to consider the fact that the melody invented way before they were born might still be copyrighted, that sort of stuff is ludicrous.

    8. Re:The song by Vintermann · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Never knew that such a surreal song had such a literal music video. Oh, well.

      They're referencing Kookaburra all right (the flautist actually sits in an old gum tree), but they are not "sampling" it as half the notices about this says. They are also playing it in a minor key, while it's in a major key in the original.

      It's also an 80 years old children's song. With four tones, eleven notes in the disputed part. The world is mad.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    9. Re:The song by delinear · · Score: 1

      Agreed - I think this was intentional, although whether they realised they were doing anything wrong is debatable. They probably had this song sung to them as a nursery rhyme as kids and it's feasible it stuck and they didn't even imagine it might be under some kind of copyright (I realise under the draconian copyright laws we have, intent to infringe isn't necessary).

    10. Re:The song by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      (I realise under the draconian copyright laws we have, intent to infringe isn't necessary).

      There's an extremely obvious reason for that, don't you think?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    11. Re:The song by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      H is NOT a musical note except on red Dwarf,

      when Holly invented a new music with H and J
      notes. Women were banned from playing the cello and triangles had to have four sides (:

  20. Re:Perhaps copyright needs to be more like tradema by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    no, the trademark on aspirin was taken as spoils of war (bayer AG is a german company)

  21. Somewhat bizarrely... by williamhb · · Score: 5, Informative

    ... the whole court case only happened as a result of a TV panel game, Spicks and Specks (Australian version of Never Mind The Buzzcocks). In how many years of every employee of that Australian music company presumably hearing Down Under played how many hundreds of times, nobody noticed until it came up as a curious fact on the telly...

    http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/music/quiz-show-sparks-aussie-anthems-battle/story-e6frfn09-1111117725552

    1. Re:Somewhat bizarrely... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      ... the whole court case only happened as a result of a TV panel game, Spicks and Specks (Australian version of Never Mind The Buzzcocks). In how many years of every employee of that Australian music company presumably hearing Down Under played how many hundreds of times, nobody noticed until it came up as a curious fact on the telly...

      http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/music/quiz-show-sparks-aussie-anthems-battle/story-e6frfn09-1111117725552

      Sorry to "blow my own trumpet" (or flute in this case), but I recognised that the riff was "in the spirit" of "Kookaburra" from the day the song was released, but, given it was such a small section and not an exact copy I'm amazed it has caused such a fuss... no, scratch that, there were lawyers involved. I'm not amazed at all.

    2. Re:Somewhat bizarrely... by catmistake · · Score: 5, Funny

      "It really saddens me to think that, in the last years of her life, while Down Under was having huge commercial success, she was in a nursing home, not earning any money from it, and was probably entitled to."

      Quoted above, Larrikin Music Publishing managing director Norm Lurie drags through his day, having not been able to help the author, he's had to settle for taking the money for himself, wiping his tears away with her royalties. It's so touching when a music executive is... sad.

  22. remember the reason for copyright by saiha · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Clearly this is encouraging more works to be created.

    To be honest I would love to see at least one example of an author who created a culturally significant work pre-1950 who has created another meaningful work in the last 10 years.

    1. Re:remember the reason for copyright by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eh, 1958 isn't QUITE far enough back, but Keiko Abe is still putting out culturally significant works today.

      http://www.keiko-abe.com/englishindex.html
      http://www.keiko-abe.com/english/sakuhin/sakuhin.html

    2. Re:remember the reason for copyright by tokul · · Score: 0

      To be honest I would love to see at least one example of an author who created a culturally significant work pre-1950 who has created another meaningful work in the last 10 years.

      This sets very strict restriction on time. Such person must stay alive for at least 65 years. 75 years old or more in saner personal activity estimates. more than 50 years of public activity. highly unlikely to happen.

      Asimov. "I, Robot", 1950 and "Forward the Foundation", 1993. at least 42 years of activity. stopped by heart and kidney failure.
      Einstein. Started in 1901, ended in 1950-1955. Stopped by abdominal aortic aneurysm. High AAA risk factor for 65-75 year olds.

    3. Re:remember the reason for copyright by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The works which are created are the papers for filing the lawsuits. That is a culturally significant contribution and provides endless numbers of otherwise useless people with meaningful employment. Can you imagine the havoc that a flood of unscrupulous people straight out of law school would wreak if they couldn't find clients? Of course there are people who say that's exactly what's happening...

    4. Re:remember the reason for copyright by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      Bo Diddley

    5. Re:remember the reason for copyright by jabelli · · Score: 1

      Define "culturally significant" and "meaningful work," please.

      [Frederik] Pohl began writing in the late 1930s, using pseudonyms for most of his early works: Pohl's first published piece was a poem, "Elegy to a Dead Planet: Luna," in the October, 1937 issue of Amazing Stories credited to "Elton Andrews."

      The Last Theorem (2008) (with Arthur C. Clarke)

      reference

  23. Like the movie Avatar by Mathinker · · Score: 3, Interesting

    > Swedish copyright law states explicitly that machine generated things can't be copyrighted because they're not creative

    I, for one, have never come across a piece of music which was generated by a machine without any intervention of human creative force.

    By strict definition, either nothing comes under that classification, or most modern 3-D animated movies do come under that classification.

    Yes, I know, the legal system doesn't work that way. Still, it seems to be a stupid law as you state it.

    1. Re:Like the movie Avatar by Zironic · · Score: 1

      It's not a terribly difficult law to interpret, the Shrek movies are copyrightable, the automatically generated database of every possible song combination is not. That subsection of copyright law is pretty much specifically written to prevent that exact thing.

      In general terms the law is interpreted such as that the output of your algorithm can only be counted as a creative work if the input of your algorithm was a creative work.

    2. Re:Like the movie Avatar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, so the algorithm is a turing machine and the input is a sequence of bytes that the algorithm transforms to all possible sequences.

    3. Re:Like the movie Avatar by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Even so the concept would work by creating "prior art". By using a computer to generate every possible melody and publishing them, no one could claim to be the original "writer" of the tune.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  24. Probability of this occurring? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What I'd like to know is: what are the odds of this happening by sheer chance? Surely there can't be that many combinations of just a few musical notes?

    And wouldn't the Birthday Paradox apply here? You can't compare the number of combinations of musical notes to the number of songs that have ever been written. Instead, you need to compare the number of combinations of musical notes to the number of possible pairs of songs.

    This just strikes me as incredibly likely to happen on probability alone. But if anyone's willing to do the math...

    1. Re:Probability of this occurring? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Given both are Australian and the artist might have been exposed to the tune? Its also the 1980's so no world wide exposure, Australia was inward looking. Growing up maybe as part of the "Girl Guide's Jamboree" mb many people enjoyed it and it seeped into the national subconscious in various forms over the years?

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    2. Re:Probability of this occurring? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I'd like to know is: what are the odds of this happening by sheer chance? Surely there can't be that many combinations of just a few musical notes?

      And wouldn't the Birthday Paradox apply here? You can't compare the number of combinations of musical notes to the number of songs that have ever been written. Instead, you need to compare the number of combinations of musical notes to the number of possible pairs of songs.

      This just strikes me as incredibly likely to happen on probability alone. But if anyone's willing to do the math...

      That song has been a staple of primary school life in Australia since before I was born and would certainly have been familiar to the Down Under songwriter. Whether he would have consciously made the connection between his song and Kookaburra is another question.

    3. Re:Probability of this occurring? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fair point, but I still would like to know a rough probability. I don't mean we should calculate the probability of this occurring for these two particular songs (which would be very small), but the probability of two well-known songs having a common string of notes. If there are, say, a million songs out there, then there's (1000000 choose 2) possible pairs of songs, which is a huge number...

    4. Re:Probability of this occurring? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100330094003AA140Jg
      Gives some numbers, very very big numbers ;)

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    5. Re:Probability of this occurring? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      This just strikes me as incredibly likely to happen on probability alone. But if anyone's willing to do the math...

      There are two main problems. The first is that any particular permutation of a given number of musical notes may be either recognisably melodic or not. if you take a seven note tune like "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" there are theoretically 8^7 permutations in the same key and with the same note lengths, so the odds of producing that tune by hitting 7 single notes at random is just over one in two million. But of these, it's impossible to say how many would actually be tunes in the normal sense of the word.

      The second problem is that once you start introducing different numbers of notes, different length notes, chords, key changes, different tempos, instrument sounds, numbers of instruments and so on, it becomes more or less impossible to provide a figure for the maximum number of permutations anyway.

      In short, I would guess that the answer is that the probability of accidentally producing two identical piece of music wouldn't be much greater than the now legendary monkeys typing Shakespare.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  25. Who can it be now? by deniable · · Score: 5, Funny

    Nobody expects the Copyright Inquisition.

    1. Re:Who can it be now? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everybody expects the Copyright Inquisition!

      Fixed that for you.

  26. Apparently the ABC owes royalties on it's web site by syousef · · Score: 1

    Page removed?

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  27. This is not the wrong you are looking for. by Psaakyrn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kookaburra_Sits_in_the_Old_Gum_Tree

    "Marion Sinclair died in 1988"
    "In June 2009, Larrikin Music sued the band Men At Work for copyright infringement, alleging that part of the flute riff of the band's 1981 single "Down Under" was copied from "Kookaburra"."

    The problem is not with copyrights lasting more than the creator, since this was infringed withing the creator's lifespan. The question is why is this brought up only now. Isn't there supposed to be something about having to defend your copyrights or some such?

    1. Re:This is not the wrong you are looking for. by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1

      No, you only need to defend trademarks.

    2. Re:This is not the wrong you are looking for. by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      Isn't there supposed to be something about having to defend your copyrights or some such?

      Yes and no.

      No, in that you don't lose it if you don't defend it.

      Yes, in that if you don't sue no one else will (or can) sue on your behalf, it has to be you as the copyright holder. (That's why the FSF recommend assigning them copyright of any GPLed work you create, so they can pursue any violations on your behalf with their presumably superior resources)

    3. Re:This is not the wrong you are looking for. by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      I know, but a full 28 years from the date of infringement? I think there is some sort of anti-competitive law against this. (not a copyright law directly)

    4. Re:This is not the wrong you are looking for. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me correct that...
      >The problem is not with copyrights lasting more than the creator

      The problem IS with copyrights lasting more than the creator

      Much better
      AC

    5. Re:This is not the wrong you are looking for. by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 1

      Slashdot's daily quote:

      Art is anything you can get away with. -- Marshall McLuhan.

      --
      My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
    6. Re:This is not the wrong you are looking for. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The question is why is this brought up only now. Isn't there supposed to be something about having to defend your copyrights or some such?

      Yes and no. Unfortunately, the "use it or lose it" policy only applies to trademarks. However, I recently heard about some folk singer who is just now suing Led Zeppelin over the song Dazed and Confused. Apparently, they borrowed heavily from this guy's song and he wants a cut of it. The kicker is the statute of limitations for copyright infringement here in the States is 3 years, so even if this guy wins, he lost out on decades of royalties for waiting so long.

      I don't know if copyright law works the same way in Australia, but if it does work that way then it would seem as though Men At Work would only be liable for the past 3 years of royalties (plus future royalties of course, but something tells me that won't be a very significant portion of the judgment if this infringement charge stands).

    7. Re:This is not the wrong you are looking for. by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      It was brought up now because some game show asked the contestant what nursery school tune is played in the song "Down Under". It's worth noting that it wasn't guessed either.

    8. Re:This is not the wrong you are looking for. by SpaceCadets · · Score: 1

      Spicks and Specks, hosted by the delicious Adam Hills, is a music quiz show.

  28. All I remember is by Centurix · · Score: 2, Funny

    Kookaburra sits on electric wire,
    jumping up and down with his pants on fire.

    Laugh Kookaburra,
    laugh Kookaburra
    how hot your pants must be.

    --
    Task Mangler
    1. Re:All I remember is by thoughtspace · · Score: 3, Funny

      Kookaburra sitting in the old gum tree
      F***ing all the sparrows he can see
      Stop kookaburra
      Stop kookaburra
      That one's got VD ... ah, primary school humour.

    2. Re:All I remember is by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      just out of interest what part of AU did you go to school in? our version was magpies and not sparrows. I didn't see your post till I posted mine above and now I feel redundant.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
  29. Owned by Warner Music Group now though by FriendlyLurker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Strange the Larrikin Wikimedia page does not mention it, but it is now a Warner Music Group holding (bought by Festival Records, swallowed by Warner Music Australasia).

    The *IAA's successfully bought off the Aussie politicians in full public view, it is only natural that they get to recuperate that "investment" in Aussie law changes. Bad thing for Australia is: The carrot they offered in return has turned out to be a dud - those silly Aussie politicians sold out for little more than shiny trinkets of no value.

    1. Re:Owned by Warner Music Group now though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      recuperate does not mean recoup.

    2. Re:Owned by Warner Music Group now though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      recuperate /rkupret, -kyu-/ Show Spelled [ri-koo-puh-reyt, -kyoo-] Show IPA verb-ated, -ating.
      –verb (used without object)
      1. to recover from sickness or exhaustion; regain health or strength.
      2. to recover from financial loss.

      doesn't mean it's wrong asshole.

    3. Re:Owned by Warner Music Group now though by beanyk · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, it's still wrong.

      "Recoup" is a transitive verb, "recuperate" is intransitive. You can't "recuperate" losses or an investment or anything.

    4. Re:Owned by Warner Music Group now though by Yamata+no+Orochi · · Score: 0

      Beat me to it.

      Sometimes, it's still just evident when someone uses the wrong word.

    5. Re:Owned by Warner Music Group now though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      No, you're still wrong. Recuperate can be transitive or intransitive. OP's usage is questionable at best, but the transitive usage of recuperate can mean "to regain" which would make sense in OP's sentence.

      recuperate (r-k'p-rt', -ky'-)
      v. recuperated, recuperating, recuperates

      v. intr.

            1.To return to health or strength; recover.

            2. To recover from financial loss.

      v. tr.

            1. To restore to health or strength.

            2. To regain.

      [Latin recuperre, recupert- : re-, re- + capere, to take; see kap- in Indo-European roots.]
      recu'pera'tion n., recu'pera'tive (-p-r'tv, -pr--tv), recu'perato'ry (-pr--tôr', -tr') adj.
      The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
      Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
      Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

    6. Re:Owned by Warner Music Group now though by Albatrosses · · Score: 1

      Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
      Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

      Anybody else find this just a little bit ironic, given the OP?

    7. Re:Owned by Warner Music Group now though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      those silly Aussie politicians sold out for little more than shiny trinkets of no value.

      Perhaps, or perhaps they are of great value!

    8. Re:Owned by Warner Music Group now though by jc42 · · Score: 1

      [From the The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition]
              Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
              Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

      Anybody else find this just a little bit ironic, given the OP?

      Well, I've wondered about that. Does this copyright notice mean that if I write something that uses those words according to the Houghton Mifflin definitions, I'm in violation of the copyright?

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  30. Re:Perhaps copyright needs to be more like tradema by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    It happened with Aspirin, Escalator, Zipper, Thermos, and Yo-yo. It almost happened to Kleenex and Xerox, and could happen to Google ("why don't you google it?").

    Frisbee. And it did happen with Jeep, but Chrysler staged the only recovery I've ever seen. When they bought Jeep, it was in general use, then they sued their way out of it. Probably one or more of Frigidaire, dispose-all, Rocky's (Rocky Mountain Jeans) and many many more (Coke in the south), but Jeep is the only one that annoys me. It was in general use. And Chrysler sued their way back to ownership. Well, maybe photoshop, as Adobe are asses about it when you photoshop something.

  31. flute riff by martin-boundary · · Score: 5, Informative
    1. Re:flute riff by wgoodman · · Score: 1

      If I had mod points, you deserve them.

    2. Re:flute riff by Vintermann · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's it? Ten notes, four tones, not even played in the same mode?

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    3. Re:flute riff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup. By this metric, pretty much everyone on the planet should be suing everyone else for Copyright Infringement.

      hmmm... I think I just came up with a storyline to a satire piece. Wait, didn't South Park already cover that one?

    4. Re:flute riff by Kreplock · · Score: 1

      Exactly so. The songs are completely different. I'd bet "Land Down Under" was completely written well before they decided to add a flute track with those flavor notes. The inclusion of the Kookaburra notes was a clever allusion to a piece of Australian culture, NOT the basis for the song.

    5. Re:flute riff by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's the same mode, Ionian. The example plays them in the same key - the Kookaburra melody starts on the 5th, the flute on the third. The flute part would effectively be a harmony to the Kookaburra melody.

      As much a part of Aussie culture as it is, I'm surprised it isn't recognized as the homage it probably is, conscious or not. Every jazz player ever has been guilty of lifting something at some point in their life, and that's when you have shifting rhythm or different modes to fit what you're playing, and often it's more notes than this. Everyone just nods and winks when that happens.

      I'd love to find a transcript of the proceedings, but then I'd probably just save it for a later which never comes. There has to be at least one person at some point who exclaims "you people are so retarded I think you gave me HIV".

    6. Re:flute riff by sjames · · Score: 1

      Yes, exactly that. George Harrison got nailed up for 3 notes.

      Sounds like a gameshow! "I can sue you for that tune over ONE note" !

    7. Re:flute riff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, plus it isn't placed the same in the strofe. It's not a copy at all, it's called a citation.

  32. Steal Away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Next, they'll be going after Robbie Dupree's 1980 hit 'Steal Away'.

    That is, if Warner Bros happens to stumble across Wikipedia and find out that "the song is built around a keyboard riff and background vocals notably similar to the 1979 hit version of 'What a Fool Believes' by The Doobie Brothers "

    Maybe Dupree was taunting Warner Bros with this aptly tiled song ;-)

  33. Re:Iconic artist? by pandrijeczko · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean that the story is uninteresting.

    Anyway, by the way you write, you sound like a teenager so you're probably too young to remember Men At Work's major hit "Down Under".

    I can't say I'm even a fan of the band myself but the fact is this article is more about the music industry and licensing than it is about the band themselves - so go sit quietly in a corner and contribute when you have something interesting to say.

    --
    Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
  34. Did the Girl Guides pay the kookaburra? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did the Girl Guides pay the kookaburra for the rights to license a derived work from its call?

    I hope so, because there's a lot more infringing work done by the guides if they haven't...

    Maybe NYCL could offer help in getting redress for this penniless author, the Kookaburra and ensure that such artists are compensated fairly for their works.

    1. Re:Did the Girl Guides pay the kookaburra? by arb+phd+slp · · Score: 1

      Did the Girl Guides pay the kookaburra for the rights to license a derived work from its call?

      I hope so, because there's a lot more infringing work done by the guides if they haven't...

      Maybe NYCL could offer help in getting redress for this penniless author, the Kookaburra and ensure that such artists are compensated fairly for their works.

      Did the Girl Guides pay royalties to the Welsh for using the song 'Wele ti'n eistedd aderyn du' to derive their work?
      This is a great example of why the Creative Commons is a great idea. The original author clearly intended for this to be a folk song, given that she never sued schools for singing it (I'm not even Australian and I learned it at school) and attempted to donate the rights to a public library association.

      --
      There's a perfect xkcd for my sig but I'm too lazy to look it up. sudo someone go find it.
  35. It Matches Perfectly by Wolvenhaven · · Score: 2, Funny

    Kookaburra sits in the old gum tree
    Eating all the Vegemite he can see
    Stop, Kookaburra! Stop, Kookaburra!
    Leave some there for me
    He just smiled and gave me a Vegemite sandwich
    And he said,
    "I come from a land down under
    Where beer does flow and men chunder
    Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
    You better run, you better take cover.

    --
    Orwell was an optimist.
    1. Re:It Matches Perfectly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For that matter, why hasn't Kraft sued them for the use of the word "Vegemite"?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegemite#In_popular_culture

  36. If copyright is forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The The Brothers Grimm, Hans Christian Anderson, and even Aesop want their stories Back.
    Yes I am talking to you Disney...

    1. Re:If copyright is forever by arb+phd+slp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The The Brothers Grimm, Hans Christian Anderson, and even Aesop want their stories Back.
      Yes I am talking to you Disney...

      Snow White was made less than 70 years after the death of a Grimm brother (which, under life+70, would have been copyrighted until 1933). 70 years from death of Hans Christian Andersen was 1945! Extended copyright wouldn't have benefited Walt in the early days at all.

      Aesop--I think we're safe there, but did the Mouse ever actually use Aesop? (Probably in the short films that I'm too lazy to look up).

      --
      There's a perfect xkcd for my sig but I'm too lazy to look it up. sudo someone go find it.
    2. Re:If copyright is forever by sjames · · Score: 1

      It probably would have bankrupted him rather early resulting in him and his art being mere footnotes in history.

      If we want to move in the right direction AND fix healthcare, we should drastically shorten patents, especially drug patents. Then make copyright expire with the death of the author even if a corporation buys it. Then the corporations can take the money they waste on lawyers and dedicate it to medical research so they can keep their copyrights alive (literally).

    3. Re:If copyright is forever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pixar used Aesop's "The Ant and the Grasshopper" in Disney's "A Bug's Life". And Disney himself oversaw an earlier short based on the same.

      Note that Disney's version of The Jungle Book was published within a couple years of the copyright expiring, and certainly prior to life+70. Pinocchio may also have been cutting it close.

  37. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  38. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  39. Copyright is too long by mbone · · Score: 1

    14 years was good enough for Thomas Jefferson, and it is good enough for me.

    The people granted a temporary monopoly on some intellectual property as an experiment to further the useful arts, and they can certainly take some of it back.

    1. Re:Copyright is too long by Vintermann · · Score: 2, Funny

      Paraphrasing old gospel hymns, are you? Be careful! In ten years the rights to "Gimme that old time religion" will be retroactively assigned to an African-American Christian orphanage, which will eventually disappear and sell the rights to Warner Music in the process.

      Then you will get sued for this comment.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
  40. Re:Perhaps copyright needs to be more like tradema by ACDChook · · Score: 4, Informative

    Where is this strange world you live where Kleenex, Xerox and Google *almost* became common terms referring to the generic?

    Anywhere outside the USA.

    I blow my nose with tissues.
    I photocopy things with a photocopier.
    And I search for things with Bing or Yahoo. I also google for things with Google.

  41. ARIA by westlake · · Score: 1

    Let's hope the primary schools are up to date with their ARIA license fees!"

    Never let a fact get between a geek and his meme.

    ARIA doesn't take money from the primary schools. ARIA licenses recorded music for commercial use in pubs, restaurants, dance halls and so on.

    Licensing FAQs - What sort of sound recording reproductions is ARIA able to license?

    We DO NOT license reproductions in the following circumstances:

    Anyone wanting to put together a product/compilation for sale to the public (this includes all retail stores, market stalls, etc);
    Any compilation /product to be created for branding, promotional or training use;
    A DJ or any other person wishing to use a sample of a commercially released sound recording in their mix or any person wanting to create mix-tapes or remixes;
    The reproduction of sound recordings for use in a film, DVD or video;
    The use of sound recordings for theme music, promos or in a dramatic context in television productions;
    The reproduction of sound recordings for use in any advertisements or commercials;
    The reproduction of sound recordings for use as "walking on" or "walking off" music at seminars or conferences;
    Music for use at wedding ceremonies or other public events;
    Any person wanting to make a "back-up" copy of their album, CD or cassette;
    Any person wishing to make a copy of a sound recording for a friend;
    Any person wanting to set up a business where the customer details which sound recording they would like on a CD and the business puts the required sound recordings onto a CD and sells the product to the customer. This is considered the retail sale of a compilation CD;
    Any person who wants to set up a business where they convert sound recordings into another format for customers (e.g. converting vinyl records into CD format for customers;
    ALL reproductions of sound recordings downloaded from unauthorised internet sites;
    Podcasts or other online uses.

  42. Defense doesn't add up by Purity+Of+Essence · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Colin Hay defends the song saying (emphasis added):

    "It is no surprise that in over 20 years, no one noticed the reference to Kookaburra. There are reasons for this. It was inadvertent, naive, unconscious, and by the time Men At Work recorded the song, it had become unrecognisable," he said.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/05/2811671.htm

    Yet in the music video for "Down Under" a flute player is shown playing the quotation while sitting in a gum tree.

    Pure coincidence?

    --
    +0 Meh
    1. Re:Defense doesn't add up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Colin Hay defends the song saying (emphasis added):

      "It is no surprise that in over 20 years, no one noticed the reference to Kookaburra. There are reasons for this. It was inadvertent, naive, unconscious, and by the time Men At Work recorded the song, it had become unrecognisable," he said.

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/05/2811671.htm

      Yet in the music video for "Down Under" a flute player is shown playing the quotation while sitting in a gum tree.

      Pure coincidence?

      But was it an old gum tree?

    2. Re:Defense doesn't add up by Theoboley · · Score: 1

      Old enough to sit in apparently.

      --
      Stupidity only gets you so far, then you've gotta try
    3. Re:Defense doesn't add up by jayme0227 · · Score: 1

      Honestly, I have no doubt this was intentional. Ever since I can remember thinking about it, I've always known that that riff was from "Kookaburra." It just made sense to me that a song about Australia would include a riff from one of the most iconic songs in Australian history.

      I still think it's a bit ludicrous that they were only sued 20+ years after the song became a mega-hit, by a company that had absolutely no part in the creation of the original tune.

      --
      But then I realized the cable was blue, so I only gave it one star. I hate blue.
    4. Re:Defense doesn't add up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you BEEN to Australia, they only have two kinds of trees... gum trees and eucalyptus. It was pretty much 50/50...

    5. Re:Defense doesn't add up by SpaceCadets · · Score: 1

      Very good point (disclaimer, I love Colin Hay and Men At Work), but keep in mind the song is about Aussieland, and the vast majority of Eucalyptus (gum trees) are native to Aussieland, only about 15 out of over 700 types are found outside Aussieland, so maybe he was there simply to highlight another Aussie icon. Of course the flute does imply intent, but only Men At Work know... :) Eucalyptus info from Wiki.

  43. Save the world from your family by AVryhof · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When you write your will, put a clause that all of your works are released under an OSS or Public Domain License upon your death.

    There should be a CC License created for this... "In Memory Of"

  44. Algorithms cannot be creative, eh? by Mathinker · · Score: 1

    Oh, so if I invent an algorithm which inputs (non-copyrightable) facts like measurements of people's tonal preferences and use it to transform random white noise into a nice musical composition (i.e., every different random input give me a different nice musical output), if I reveal that a particular composition was created in this way it cannot be copyrightable, but if I would have presented that composition as my own creative work it would be copyrightable?

    Don't you find that strange?

    Another example: I invent an algorithm which manages to select pleasantly colored subregions of the Mandelbrot set (based on random color maps and a search algorithm + simulated-human-preference rating algorithm).

    1. Re:Algorithms cannot be creative, eh? by Zironic · · Score: 1

      It's not terribly strange, for instance consider if you found a beautifully shaped rock in the forest, you'll be treated very differently depending on if you say you found it or you carved it yourself.

      Now it's quite trivial to take any singlar output from such an algoritm and turn it into a creative work, the only thing you can't do is claim copyright on the sum of all outputs like the geniuses here on Slashdot keep proposing.

    2. Re:Algorithms cannot be creative, eh? by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      > the only thing you can't do is claim copyright on
      > the sum of all outputs like the geniuses here on
      > Slashdot keep proposing

      So if I pick and choose only 50% of the outputs, using my human "creativity", I'm OK, then.

      Somehow I don't think this works, at least not the way you think it does. And if you are thinking of replying that there are too many outputs for me to claim I looked at all of them, what happens if I decide to split the work with a million other people?

      It's not at all clear to me that in this day and age, I couldn't manage to organize the CC licensing of most listenable music sequences. Especially since there is precedent for even very short music sequences (5 notes comes to mind) being given copyright protection.

    3. Re:Algorithms cannot be creative, eh? by Zironic · · Score: 1

      The judge would just take one glance at your list and laugh you out of court. It doesn't really matter what you do on a technical level because atleast the Swedish court system works by intent, and the intent of the law is that you can't do that.

      I'm pretty sure this sort of project would meet a similar fate in an American court since it would be almost impossible for you to convince the judge that your millions of melodies are infact creative works. The law system in general frowns heavily on people that try to trick it.

    4. Re:Algorithms cannot be creative, eh? by Albatrosses · · Score: 1

      Okay, so I publish the raw database online (in non-copyrightable form), then let people individually "sample" the database to build their own "creative" sequences to publish under CC. Crowdsource'd.

      Would that work?

    5. Re:Algorithms cannot be creative, eh? by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      > laugh you out of court ... and the intent of the law is that you can't do that.

      As I previously stated, I understand that. But this still doesn't address the point I was making, which is that that law, as stated, is stupidly stated. It requires a lot of input from the judge/jury to make it "work" the way it is intended.

      > The law system in general frowns heavily on people that try to trick it.

      I don't know. It's taking a really long time for the US legal system to react against the spamming of RIAA. E.g., I'm waiting impatiently to see what happens in the third Thomas trial, if it comes to that.

    6. Re:Algorithms cannot be creative, eh? by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      Okay, so I publish the raw database online (in non-copyrightable form), then let people individually "sample" the database to build their own "creative" sequences to publish under CC. Crowdsource'd.

      This was exactly what I was thinking about when I wrote my post, which is why I specifically used the term "organize".

      Would that work?

      Only the gods of the legal system know that. One supposes that it wouldn't be an easy fight, especially since we wouldn't be a large, rich corporation.

  45. Copyright For Life Of The Creator Only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Someone made a point that I think made sense......if we're going to have copyright, we ought to not make it based on the life of the creator.....otherwise it will be motivation to kill artists. Make it 15 years from the time it was created or something.

    What about works that take enormous amounts of people and money to create like "The Wizard Of Oz" or "Transformers"? Why is everyone generally against an artist, an estate, a corporation (a group of people) owning the property that they create? Ownership of land doesn't expire, as long as an owner pays their property taxes. Whether we like it or not Disney and Paramount and NBC make some decent products. Sure, they are corporations, but they pay creators for the property they own. I'm not saying the system is perfect, but just because a piece of property was created in someone's mind doesn't have to mean that the property suddenly belongs to the planet after an arbitrary time period.

    As thoughts become more valuable there are incentives created by allowing people to own their thoughts and profit off of it.

    What if, for example, I decided to buy some land and build a farm. My intention is that my farm would be a business for my children and grand children, so I work very hard to build that farm and make it profitable and till the land and build silos and invest in equipment. I innovate on my farm so that I am competitive and I create repeatable processes that can be carried on after I die. I employ people and I make food, all of which benefits society. What if my children don't run my farm and my estate runs the farm. Would you want to take away my farm after I die?

    Instead now I am a composer. I work very hard to compose songs and I take great personal risk to publish those songs and make them recorded and I spend lots of money creating relationships with directors and producers to put my songs in their films. Should ownership of all my work just evaporate after I die? Why does the farmer get to keep his farm and I have to lose my stakehold?

    1. Re:Copyright For Life Of The Creator Only? by paiute · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm not saying the system is perfect, but just because a piece of property was created in someone's mind doesn't have to mean that the property suddenly belongs to the planet after an arbitrary time period.

      If I owned the copyright to Homer, the Greek, Roman, and Norse tales, and Shakespeare, then I could prevent any new work of narrative from ever being created and sold.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    2. Re:Copyright For Life Of The Creator Only? by NekSnappa · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A farm produces a new crop with each harvest. And when you die it can countinue to produce a new crop with the following harvests that your children reap. If you and your children continue to sell the same sheaf of wheat over, and over you'll all go to jail for fraud.

      As a composer the only way to do something similar would be teach you offspring how to write music and lyrics. Enabling them to earn a living from the fruits of their own labor. The same as the farmers children would have to do.

      --
      I want to shoot the messenger!
    3. Re:Copyright For Life Of The Creator Only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Yes, but composers don't have to pay a property tax each year. If they did, I wouldn't have any problem treating IP as real property.

      Posting anon as I've already modded this.

    4. Re:Copyright For Life Of The Creator Only? by silentcoder · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >Whether we like it or not Disney and Paramount and NBC make some decent products.

      To answer your question: Disney made the vast majority of it's fortune by borrowing FROM the public domain. The scripts for nearly all their best selling movies were based on older stories on which the copyright had expired (or never existed).

      So why should Disney be allowed to BENEFIT from the expiration of the copyright once owned by Hans Christian Anderson and the Brother's Grimm but not be expected to CONTRIBUTE in the same way to the NEXT generation of artists ?

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    5. Re:Copyright For Life Of The Creator Only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well I have a copyright on the letter e. So you owe me 3.5 million dollars for the above post.

    6. Re:Copyright For Life Of The Creator Only? by orasio · · Score: 1

      First, you are answering to a guy who says copyrights should last 15 years, and have nothing to do with life of the artist.

      Second, you are not god, you can't create property.

      Copyrighted works are not property, because they have no physical existence, you can't own something that doesn't exist. "Intellectual property" is a law term that doesn't share most of the characteristics of property. For instance, you can't copy property for free, and that's where its value resides, in its inherent scarcity. Copyrighted works, for example, that scarcity is not one of it's characteristics, and it's almost impossible to make it so.

      There is a bargain where you give copyrighted works belong to the public domain, and get in exchange a monopoly on its distribution. It's supposed to be an incentive for artists, but it's not working like it should, maybe it doesn't make sense anymore.

      Right now, there is an abundance of creative works being published without claims to copyright. You can see them in Youtube, Blogger and Facebook. That seems to hint that people no longer need the copyright incentive to publish their works, so maybe that ought to be revised.

      About some movies needing corporations, well, I don't think it's the only way to make huge movies, and even if it were, it doesn't justify copyright by itself.

    7. Re:Copyright For Life Of The Creator Only? by cgenman · · Score: 1

      Property is inherently objects. I can hold a guitar in my hand. I can hold a cassette in my hand. I can't hold a concept, or a musical riff, or a mathematical formula in my hand. That is not "property" in the traditional definition. By playing a Kiss tune on my guitar, I haven't deprived the Kiss Army of any property they might own. By holding a Kiss-authored song in my head, that does not give them property rights over my brain. Any sort of "rights" granted in this way are extra rights that society gives, in the hopes that Gene Simmons will keep on making music until all of his teeth fall out. Of course "rights" is a misnomer, since it really is a curb on the freedoms that other people have.

      Let's take your farm analogy. If you buy some land and build a farm, you're entitled to make money selling your goods and hopefully passing on a healthy farm to your children. But when you sell your farm wares today, what you get back is money. You can't create a pumpkin today and expect to be making money off of that one pumpkin for hundreds of years. You build stuff on your farm and sell them, building a thriving network of connections, knowledge, and equipment. A creative house is no different. We make cultural objects. But when we create something, it feeds us for a while, then we have to create something else. I work in video games, so my title's shelf lives are incredibly limited. But it is long enough and rewarding enough to go on creating more and more. And were I to own a studio of my own, I would be passing on the network of connections and development knowledge (and branding!) to my children, as well as any money I might have made.

      Of course, with the roughly 100 year copyright term currently in the US, I would actually be able to pass on copyrights to my children. And their children. And that sounds silly to me. Why? Because they didn't do anything. Larrkin didn't create Kookaburra, and aren't being rewarded for effort on their part. They bought the rights to a catalog of works, with the hope that they could troll around and sue people with similar songs. As a society, we're agreeing to curb freedoms in exchange for rewarding the production of certain types of intangible cultural artifacts. How is my children's children growing up getting royalty checks for something they had nothing to do with going to encourage them to get off their lazy butts and produce? Or more realistically, how is some large rights clearinghouse getting royalty checks for something they bought on clearance when a record company folded going to encourage the production of more music?

      BTW, as thoughts become more valuable, the more inherent incentive there is to create them, the less we need as a society to incentivize their creation. If they're becoming more valuable, then things are moving in the right direction without our intervention.

    8. Re:Copyright For Life Of The Creator Only? by stanlyb · · Score: 1

      Ownership of land doesn't expire, as long as an owner pays their property taxes. /quote? Sorry man, but if by ownership you mean "Land Patent", then why do you have to pay taxes!!! Otherwise, it is not ownership, but lease or holding right. So, in this sense, you down own the FARM, you only hold some rights......and that's all. Regarding your genius thoughts, they are yours, and only yours, only if they are really original, without using any copy/paste in any form, which is virtually impossible. And yes, once you are dead, you are dead, fact of life, you cannot bring your favorite car in paradise, or hell, lol.

    9. Re:Copyright For Life Of The Creator Only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure you could. Lots of IP is taken off the market. This is done in hollywood all the time by people buying scripts. Human creativity is much bigger.

      As well, we've lost lots of works due to the fall of empires...humans still continue to flourish.

      Chances are, if you owned the copyright to all that you'd be selling lots of products like Disney. Humans would still flourish. And we'd have great Iliad Theme Parks to boot! Betcha that'd make the Iliad a lot more popular than it is now.

    10. Re:Copyright For Life Of The Creator Only? by Xylene2301 · · Score: 1

      If I owned the copyright to Homer, the Greek, Roman, and Norse tales, and Shakespeare, then I could prevent any new work of narrative from ever being created and sold.

      Are you referring to these items in translation or in the original Klingon?

  46. Since you have him thinking he's dead in 0-10 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since you have him thinking he's dead in 0-10, why would he create a new book at all? He's not going to see a penny. But you know what? People DON'T think they are going to die in a year.

    And since 90% of the money from the book will come before 10 years is up, why is his putative death in 10 years and the therefore 10% loss of money going to demotivate a writer?

    So several ways you fail.

    1) nobody thinks "I'm gonna die this year"
    2) if he thinks he'll die when 90%+ of the money from the book is in, why is he worrying about another 65 years copyright?
    3) Why will he not write another book in 5 years? I have to go to work each day to get paid. Not just once every 10 years

  47. Re:Page not found on link? Here's the bbcnews page by oztiks · · Score: 1

    They are expected to pay 5% of their royalties since 2002 and from now on.

    So how much extra money did they make from all this extra press coverage?

    Might balance it all out in the long run ....

  48. MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mod parent up, God damn it!

  49. My thoughts exactly! by vm146j2 · · Score: 1

    You owe me, big time.

    --
    "Lost time is not found again."
  50. Re:Apparently the ABC owes royalties on it's web s by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    its.

  51. And Mark Twain had a solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He was re-edit his books every few years, adding new material. If people wanted the latest and greatest (the one with more g's), they'd buy, and they did.

    Here's the problem now... If I have a choice between a known good work, let's say something by the Beatles, and a work of unknown quality, let's say something by New Band 547, which one will get my money? Probably the Beatles. Great for the Beatles, terrible for the new artists. Copyright was supposed to help spur innovation by protecting it for a short period of time, but it's now been sabotaged. A few older works will prosper at the cost of all of the new ones.

    1. Re:And Mark Twain had a solution by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      He was re-edit his books every few years, adding new material. If people wanted the latest and greatest (the one with more g's), they'd buy, and they did.

      Just like George Lucas.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  52. Seriously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They use all of 11 notes of Kookaburra- only the first sentence worth, and without lyrics; merely to refer to the land "down under" by using a kids song that many people around the world are familiar with. Had the song been about London, they'd probably have used "London bridge is falling down".

    If I want to listen to the song Kookaburra, I probably won't use the Man at Work song for that- it contains too short a fragment. Besides the whole song has 4 or 5 verses. No lost sales, less than 10% used... I call "fair use".

  53. And you're caught and jailed for murder. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    And you're caught and jailed for murder. Now everyone can use work similar to yours and sue YOU for infringing THEIR work, asserting that THEY got it from the Public Domain work, not you.

    Meanwhile, being in jail, you don't get to reap the benefit of your work being sold.

    Alternatively, you have to become a mass murderer and kill all others who you've been infringing on.

    Or you could not kill authors and do your own work.

    Yup, it's really silly.

    1. Re:And you're caught and jailed for murder. by Yamata+no+Orochi · · Score: 0

      And you're caught and jailed for murder.

      see

      If no one can prove I have killed you

      Reading comprehension goes a long way.

  54. Precedent set, goodbye pop music! by wynterwynd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Some real good could come of this. You see, many many mass-produced generic pop songs all use the same 4 chords: G, C, F and A.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I -- This video illustrates the point rather well

    Now the RIAA/ARAA will never run out of artists to sue. They can take every major pop hit of the last 30 years and have them sue each other back and forth in an orgiastic Roman frenzy of subpoenas. Every pop artist will sue every other one, on and on, with the damages spiraling further and further upward until the songs themselves become worth more when not played at all. Problem solved.

    But seriously, come on - ALL art is derivative, music as much as anyone. You experience music and you have a gift for music, your experiences with music and the emotions they trigger in you inspire you to create your own music, you create based on what you've heard because it's what you know. Maybe it's a little different than the songs that inspired you, but usually not on a fundamental level.

    But perhaps we should take this model and run with it. Maybe if we can just get this applied to the Summer Blockbuster or the Romantic Comedy formula movies, we can finally do away with all the terrible, predictable, and rote plotlines that we've been subjected to for years.

    --
    "Not all who wander are lost" -- JRR Tolkien
  55. Re:Perhaps copyright needs to be more like tradema by sincewhen · · Score: 1

    If your song/phrase/work becomes an iconic symbol of something else

    Which song are you talking about here?

    --
    -- Braden's law of data: All data spends some of its lifetime in an excel spreadsheet.
  56. I clam the rights to E-flat and want $0.05 per son by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    I clam the rights to E-flat and want $0.05 per song that uses it.

  57. Who are we rooting for again? by FriendlyPrimate · · Score: 2, Interesting

    People seem to be missing a point here. It's been over 30 years since the song 'Down Under' was released, yet Men at Work are still able to collect royalties on it. Cry me a river if the system that allows that to happen also says they need to share their royalties with someone with an even older claim. Sounds like poetic justice to me.

    1. Re:Who are we rooting for again? by b1t+r0t · · Score: 1

      You may be missing a point here, too.

      The problem isn't collecting royalties on a song for years, it's the copyright law making it required for such an absurdly long time. (such time which just happens to keep getting extended long enough to ensure that Steamboat Willie's copyright never expires) And it's especially the tenuous bullshit lawsuits like this (as well as "He's So Fine" / "My Sweet Lord").

      There's no reason that you couldn't pay an original author money after a copyright expires, other than under current laws they'd probably already be dead by then.

      --

      --
      "Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
      "Open source is evil." - Microsoft
  58. Zombies? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh right, copyright law is written for zombies.

    Zombies? Perhaps on a hippie trail?

  59. Indians Sue to take back Manhattan by tekrat · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Will it never end? How many years must something be in the dust and the the lawyers just feed off themselves, sueing everyone who sneezes near them? The song "Down Under" is from the 80's, early 80's I think, we talking almost 30 years! And just now we're getting to the lawsuit?

    Quick, I think Ben Franklin's estate should sue for all the shit he created that everyone uses without paying for. Ben wanted it to all be freely available, but who cares what *he* wanted, he's dead, and now it's in lawyer hands.

    And they aren't thinking about the benefit of all men like Franklin, they are thinking about the benefit of one man. Themself.

    And that's why this world is going to shit.

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
    1. Re:Indians Sue to take back Manhattan by labnet · · Score: 1

      .How many years must something be in the dust and the the lawyers just feed off themselves, sueing everyone who sneezes near them?

      Don't blame the lawers. They are rarely the ones who instigate legal proceeding but are rather the tool of someone who feels agrieved and wants something another person does not want to give.

      --
      46137
  60. Oblig Yes, Dear Reference by Theoboley · · Score: 1

    I always thought it said "Dynamite some bitch"

    --
    Stupidity only gets you so far, then you've gotta try
    1. Re:Oblig Yes, Dear Reference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought it was "He just smiled and gave me a bite of 'is, sandwich." Left me phobic of traveling to Australia, as I wouldn't want to have to give a stranger a bite of MY sandwich, if that was the cultural norm. I wonder if I can sue MAW for that?

    2. Re:Oblig Yes, Dear Reference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually it's 'vegemite sandwich'

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegemite

      something similar to marmite

  61. beh by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't know a Kookaburra from cockle barrow, but is it possible that both songs resemble the natural call of the bird?

    Then again, if that was the case then I suppose it would have occurred to someone...

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:beh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      have you ever heard a kookaburra? that shit ain't musical....

    2. Re:beh by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      So that's a yes, then?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  62. "To promote the Progress"? Hardly. by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apparently the usual defense is to identify some work already in the public domain that also sounds the same.

    If authors routinely crib from the public domain instead of creating something original for fear of violating copyright, then copyright is impeding rather than "promot[ing] the Progress of Science and useful Arts", as another country's constitution puts it.

    1. Re:"To promote the Progress"? Hardly. by digitig · · Score: 1

      I don't think they consciously crib from the public domain. Well, not the good ones (who will credit the original if they do use it). It's just that there are only so many musical phrase length sequences of notes, and most of them sound terrible, so if you find something that sounds good the chances are somebody got there before you.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
  63. Disney's Kill Bill by tepples · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Disney made the vast majority of it's fortune by borrowing FROM the public domain. The scripts for nearly all their best selling movies were based on older stories on which the copyright had expired (or never existed).

    Then I guess Pixar films and Quentin Tarantino's films published through Disney's Miramax brand are your "nearly". But I see your point: Pinocchio and The Jungle Book came out within two years of Collodi's and Kipling's respective copyrights expiring in major markets.

    1. Re:Disney's Kill Bill by silentcoder · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Are you seriously suggesting that Pixar and Tarantino TOGETHER have made them as much money as Snow White alone ? Not to mention Rapunzel, The hunchback of Notre Dame, Alladin, Tarzan (again - came out within a year after Buroughs original copyright expired).

      They have a roughly 80 year history of films made from stories that were in the public domain, not to mention the additional income from toys and other branding. The pixar and Tarantino branches are both only in the last 20 years or so of that period.
      Disney has a history of taking works from the public domain and creating profitable works from them - and then claiming copyright on said derivations. I have my doubts about the morality of this but it's certainly legal. The point is though - Disney is so intent on keeping their one truly original creation (Mickey Mouse) under copyright and NOT contributing it to the world as the people they took from did that they have ensured the extension of copyright TWICE to make it happen.
      That's not even considering that where it suited them - they have on occasion actually outright stolen stories that were copyrighted creating highly profitable works - simply because the small companies they were stealing from simply could not afford to try and sue them. The lion king is perhaps the worst example of that.

      Tit for tat goes the saying. We set up copyright in the way it is so THAT companies like Disney could take it's stories and make movies people love - that's fine. It's NOT fine to refuse to play ball and give you own works BACK to that pool when the time comes so that OTHER companies and people can do the same.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    2. Re:Disney's Kill Bill by jdgeorge · · Score: 1

      Are you seriously suggesting that Pixar and Tarantino TOGETHER have made them as much money as Snow White alone ?

      I definitely suggest that. In fact, I suspect Pixar has made more money on Cars and its merchandising alone than from the entire history of Snow White-related income and associated merchandising.

      However, I'd have a heck of a time proving that, since there is more Cars-related merchandise than you think, and it's impossible to track Disney/Pixar's income from that, in addition to the fact that it's even less possible to measure and adjust into today's dollars the historical revenue of Snow White going back to it's 1937 release.

    3. Re:Disney's Kill Bill by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      Valid point but not all that relevant anyway. Disney made a crapload of money out of movies made from out-of-copyright stories, it's a bloody rip-off that they refuse ot let their own creations go out of copyright and contribute back to the public domain pool they so enriched themselves from. Whether cars made more or less money than snow white is not the point. The point is they sure made a LOT more money out of Snow White than Hans Christian Anderson ever did - and they will do everything in their power ot make sure nobody else ever makes money out of cars in the same way (or even Mickey Mouse for that matter).

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    4. Re:Disney's Kill Bill by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      I suspect Pixar has made more money on Cars and its merchandising alone than from the entire history of Snow White-related income and associated merchandising.

      You just had to work in a car analogy, didn't you. ;)

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    5. Re:Disney's Kill Bill by jdgeorge · · Score: 1

      I definitely agree with the spirit of what you're saying.

      However, keep in mind that Disney really doesn't want to prevent other people from making money by using their copyrighted material, as long as Disney is also getting a (big) piece of it. This is why the merchandising occurs; toy manufacturers still make decent money on the related items, even though they pay a nice royalty fee to Disney.

  64. A symbol of by tepples · · Score: 1

    The allegation is that "Kookaburra" became a symbol of the Commonwealth of Australia.

  65. Do composers need an E&O policy? by tepples · · Score: 1

    So I guess the only way to survive in the industry is to take out a good errors and omissions policy with a company like MusicPro Insurance. Am I right?

  66. Forget the law by tthomas48 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Shouldn't there be a statute of limitations? This is possibly one of the globally best known Australian songs of all time. The riff is completely obvious, and it's taken them 20 years to get around to suing?

  67. Madness...? by grouchomarxist · · Score: 1

    This.......is........Australia!!!!

  68. Does Australia have "fair use"? by Beorytis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If something similar happened in the US, I would claim fair use because it's not copying but rather quoting a small portion of the melody (just the "merry merry king of the bush is he" part) in a new context that offers commentary. "Down Under" is after all a song about Australian culture, so it quotes a well known Australian children's song.

  69. Sampled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The notes were sampled from a well-known children's song 'Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gum Tree,' written in 1934 for a Girl Guide's Jamboree."

    I highly doubt they were sampled. If so, from which recording? Maybe "sample" doesn't mean what you think it means.

  70. Re:Perhaps copyright needs to be more like tradema by 6031769 · · Score: 1

    True, but it winds up Adobe even more when you say you photoshopped it with GIMP.

    --
    Burns: We're building a casino!
    McAllister: Arrr. Give me 5 minutes.
  71. Re:Perhaps copyright needs to be more like tradema by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yo-yo shouldn't have been a trademark to begin with. It is the common term for the weapon from which the toy was derived.

  72. Re:Perhaps copyright needs to be more like tradema by balbus000 · · Score: 1

    I wish it would happen for Frisbee. No one knows what I mean when I mention an Ultimate disc.

  73. Re:Perhaps copyright needs to be more like tradema by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Trademarks can be lost if they become common generic terms in the language. It happened with Aspirin

    No it didn't.

    Aspirin is still trademarked in Germany and much of Europe. The Allies stripped Bayer of their trademarks during WWII, which is why it's generic in the United States.

  74. 1984 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The whole idea that copying and plagiarism are bad has infected our society from cradle to grave. Take school where we are forced to plagiarise in stead of quoting by twisting others thoughts into our own phrasings. Original ideas are encouraged to a fault, where we can't even hold good ideas if they are also others, we must twist them into our own meaning. Yet without copying and plagiarism we would not have the amazing knowledge and insights we have today, we would have no millenia old history of science, we would have no society or civilization to speak of. Copying and plagiarism is what seperates us from the animals. Copyright is the antithesis of progress and the worst blight on intellectual advancment ever concieved. The birds hold the copyright to all music anyway, there's more money in intraspecies lawsuits than my crazy ides of abolition of copyright anyway, but fuck it we live in an anarchy and I can copy just as much as I can get away with anyway, which should be enough for humanity to survive.

  75. The cost will be minimal. by Dzimas · · Score: 1

    I suspect the band's biggest expense here will be legal fees (shared with EMI). The ruling awards only 5% of the royalties earned by the song since 2002. That means the band's earnings from their heyday in the early 1980s are untouched. Given the state of modern music sales, I'd be surprised to see the amount owing reach more than $10,000. The court basically said, "Yeah, it looks like the band unconsciously based the solo on an old campfire song, but we're going to award minimal damages because you're just gold digging."

  76. I don't think this would work by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    In this situation, if you had a trial, lost, and the court awarded millions of dollars to the original artist, it wouldn't matter if the original artist mysteriously died - the award would still stand and would be paid to his estate. Now, if the OA were to mysteriously die before the trial was over, that would be another story, but... it would be awfully hard to get away with this. The first question the police are going to ask when someone dies in suspicious circumstances: "who would have wanted him dead?" - you'd find yourself under a microscope pretty quickly.

  77. I don't think so by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    Copyright violation requires that you take someone else's copyrighted material and distribute it as your own (with or without modifications). None of the steps outlined above have anything to do with distributing these works - he/she is just trying to register copyright for them. If you try to register a copyright on something that's already registered, that's not illegal, and you can't be sued for it. You just might not get the copyright, or for a derived work, might get a copyright be still not be able to sell the work (because portions of your work belong to someone else).

  78. I find it absolutely impossible to believe... by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    ... that the composer of a song entitled "the Land Down Under" just happened to come up with a series of notes that are nearly an exact duplicate of a phrase from one of Australia's iconic songs. I'm sorry, but that absolutely beggars belief. Don't get me wrong, I'm as riled up about copyright abuse as anyone else, but let's not pretend this riff wasn't copied lock, stock & barrel from the "Kookaburra" piece.

    1. Re:I find it absolutely impossible to believe... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find it absolutely impossible to believe...that the composer of a song entitled "the Land Down Under" just happened to come up with a series of notes that are nearly an exact duplicate of a phrase from one of Australia's iconic songs. I'm sorry, but that absolutely beggars belief.

      I believe it was 100% intentional, and inserted as an allusion. Apparently allusions in literature are just fine with regards to copyright, but in music they are not.

    2. Re:I find it absolutely impossible to believe... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      Umm, there are only so many notes, and only so many ways to arrange them.

      I suppose you could invent a new scale with some different frequencies and harmonic relationships, and ca get a different sound that way, but most of the pleasant to listen to scales have been used. but seriously, there isn't much in music that has not been done before, multiple times.

      IOW, if you are composing music, you are plagiarizing. In the brave new world of eternal copyright (and it is coming) you gotta pay up.

      --
      Why is this even on SlashDot?... Why is this even on Slashdot?...Why is this even on Slashdot?
  79. Absolutely ridiculous by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    I was an avid listener of this kind of music when "Down Under" was released, and it the sequence in question was clearly recognizable to me. And if an American college student recognized this riff at first hearing, it's absolutely freakin' impossible to believe that the Australian band who performed it didn't recognize it. Again, I'm not saying I agree with the way copyright law is being used here, but come on. This bit was CLEARLY copied from the "Kookaburra" piece.

  80. Re:Perhaps copyright needs to be more like tradema by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 1

    No. Just reduce the term to something like a generation (20-25 years). Creators will still create and be able to make more use of existing culture in new culture.

  81. Re:Perhaps copyright needs to be more like tradema by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're wrong about Aspirin. The name Aspirin is trademarked in most countries and is owned by Bayer, a German company. As part of the war reparations after WWI, Bayer was forced to give up rights to trademarks in the US and UK (and maybe a few others?). So in the US and UK, Aspirin because aspirin through the Treaty of Versailles, not through common usage.

  82. Re:Perhaps copyright needs to be more like tradema by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

    So if you write a song so brilliant that everyone immediately recognizes you brilliance and it becomes an iconic part of your culture, you get no money from it?

    Shorter copyright terms are the answer, trademarks are different.

  83. Re:Perhaps copyright needs to be more like tradema by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

    I agree with you for the first two, but lots of people in other countries google for things.

    I think the test would be to ask a child what they mean. I had no idea that any of the examples the OP mentioned were trademarked until they were specifically pointed out to me.

  84. Welsh Children's Song by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The original music *IS* an old Welsh children's song. The melody of which was used by some Australian woman years ago....which was subsequently bought by lawyers and....well the rest is a sad reflection of what we've become...

  85. "shall not change the basic melody" by tepples · · Score: 1

    That statutory license does not cover any copying of recorded sound

    Nor does it appear to cover derivative works such as the result of subconscious copying. From 17 USC 115: "the arrangement shall not change the basic melody or fundamental character of the work, and shall not be subject to protection as a derivative work under this title, except with the express consent of the copyright owner."

    And there still doesn't appear to be any options available to me if I had been making the disputed recording available on my web site as a free promotional download.

  86. slow day? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You guys may also be soon hearing that Clinton is no longer president.

  87. Re:Perhaps copyright needs to be more like tradema by SpaceCadets · · Score: 1

    And Ugg Boots and I think Roller Blades too... but I could be wrong. :)

  88. Overly long copyright terms? by Minwee · · Score: 1

    Then it's time to trot out Spider Robinson's short story "Melancholy Elephants", which was thoughtfully released under a Creative Commons NonCommercial license.

    Share and enjoy.

  89. It's not a gum tree by gargleblast · · Score: 1
    1. Re:It's not a gum tree by Purity+Of+Essence · · Score: 1

      I still don't buy the defense, but thanks for the link. I'd mod that up if I could.

      As a Floridian, I initially thought it was a mangrove as well -- and it probably is -- except it also has koala in it which further implies it is a gum tree. A koala's primary source of water is from the leaves that they eat. A salt-encrusted mangrove leaf is the last leaf I would expect them to want. I think if Men At Work had an old gum tree handy, they would have certainly used it instead.

      --
      +0 Meh
  90. ASCAP threatend to sue the Girl and Boy Scouts by rlh100 · · Score: 1

    There are many campfire songs that the Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts no longer sing because they were told they would be sued for royalties if they did not pay. It is bone headed things like this that give ASCAP and the music publishing industry a bad name. They could have given Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts and other non-profits limited permission to perform the songs at official functions and maybe made some money off of related sales like records and sheet music. But no, they had to threaten to sue. So songs like "This Land Is Your Land", "Puff the Magic Dragon", "God Bless America" and "Happy Birthday" are no longer sung around the campfire.

    A quick google search found:
            The birds may sing, but campers can't unless they pay up:
            http://archive.southcoasttoday.com/daily/08-96/08-23-96/b02li056.htm

    And it is even mentioned in Wikipeda:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Society_of_Composers,_Authors_and_Publishers#Criticism

    Isn't America wonderful

    1. Re:ASCAP threatend to sue the Girl and Boy Scouts by rlh100 · · Score: 1

      I should have read a bit more. After threatening to sue and getting a huge public outcry, they backed off. Said is was simply a mistake with a mailing list.

  91. Obligatory Spider Robinson by lennier · · Score: 1

    Since nobody has referenced "Melancholy Elephants" yet, I will.

    Gets more and more apropos every day, it seems.

    --
    You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  92. and when i was in primary school it was by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

    kookaburra sits in the old gum tree
    screwing all the magpies he can see
    stop kookaburra
    stop
    that ones got vd

    --
    The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.