Slashdot Mirror
Officials Use Google Earth To Find Unlicensed Pools
Officials in Riverhead, New York are using Google Earth to root out the owners of unlicensed pools. So far they've found 250 illegal pools and collected $75,000 in fines and fees. Of course not everyone thinks that a city should be spending time looking at aerial pictures of backyards. from the article: "Lillie Coney, associate director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington, DC, said Google Earth was promoted as an aid to curious travelers but has become a tool for cash-hungry local governments. 'The technology is going so far ahead of what people think is possible, and there is too little discussion about community norms,' she said."
but how much did it cost?
"Lame" - Galaxar
' nuff said.
They broke the law, and were caught by better technology. They should have played by the book, planning laws are there for a reason, bad developments can have a really bad effect on neighbours, wildlife, etc.
...would be following local rules/laws, and getting permits as you're supposed to.
I have no problem with Google Earth being used in this way - it's public information.
I find the phrase "unlicensed pool" a little... disturbing.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Like what, paying your taxes?
It is the government office saving money instead of hiring a plane to fly over the neighborhood and take pictures. Or are you going to say that you have a right to privacy from the air? Get real. A $300 fine ($75,000 / 250) doesn't sound excessive for a permit violation either. Now all those pools also need to be inspected for possible code violations. That is where it might get expensive.
-molo
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
Can somebody look up the Google Earth TOS and see if there’s anything in it that would be relevant to this sort of use?
I’d do it myself but I’m a bit busy at the moment.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
This sort of thing may stimulate a wider interest in practical application of camouflage techniques.
If I put up a fence to protect my privacy and the town uses 'spy satellites' to invade it without a warrant, doesn't that make the search illegal?
A few years ago I was in a speeding ticket dispute (that I eventually won) where the traffic court was using Google Maps' Satellite View in order to count the number of mailboxes along the road to determine the number of houses on the road, and therefore to determine if the area was "densely populated" and therefore qualified for a lower unposted speed limit.
...the government caught me in the act of doing something illegal using public information that's been available for years now! Bad Big Brother!
Permits are hard to get around here to do anything though. Which sucks. But if you choose to break the law, you should be aware of the potential consequences and the chance of getting caught. Given the public images of homes it should not be too surprising that something like this would happen eventually.
How is this any different from the town building inspector cruising around town looking for any construction projects without permits on file? Is the overhead view somehow off-limits to use for enforcing the rules? Would it be different if the imagery came from a government-owned UAV/RPA or even just a guy with a camera in a rented helicopter?
While not Google Earth, as a county government we look at our own aerial photos (added to a GIS layer) to find unpermitted structures as well (mostly just to get them on the tax books - if someone builds without a permit we often have no idea that the structure exists, so it goes untaxed).
While I'm sure it's a LONG ways off, at a recent conference I was at one of the larger city-level governments in the state was actually discussing the possibility of using a form of sonar to track this. I'm not sure if they're just in the brainstorming phase or what, but from what he said the idea was to use it to map out the structures in the city at periodic intervals. Then between intervals you compare to the previous sweep to see anything large that's been added or removed. You filter that against what parcels have not had a permit issued, and you get a good source of info to start following up on construction without permits.
The same city had recently installed various microphones in spots around the city to auto-alert the police department when it detected gunfire (this is already in place, not conceptual). Apparently it is fine tuned enough to be able to tell the difference between an actual gun and things like fireworks and the like.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
And is it unlicensed?
I had a friend who had a neighbor with an unlicensed above-ground pool. I'm not sure what went wrong, but one day it collapsed, sending all of the water into my friend's back yard, destroying everything there. Building permits are required for good reasons, and they're usually dirt cheap (less than 1% of the project cost). If you're hiring a contractor who doesn't get a building permit, then they're probably not doing it to save you money, but to allow them to skimp on important building code details that might end up costing you a huge amount.
Don't they have anything better to do?
The thing that bugs me about this is not that they're finding unlicensed pools but that they're doing this instead of finding waste in their own departments.
Notice that they aren't cutting administrative overhead or the salaries of those at the top? Instead they're raising taxes and applying more and more fines to get more money out of people.
Damn greedy bastards.
The speaker moxie said basically, what the gov't had been trying to do but would never be able to is what google is doing now. To put it in perspective, he asked: "Who do you think knows more about the people of Iran? It's government, or google?"
So for all the good google does, this is one small way that it hurts some. That's not to say though, that the people who have these pools are innocent. Yes, we're a capitalistic society as many think, but no, you don't pay to have the roads you drive on to be paved, you contribute like everyone else does in small amounts. And without those small amounts almost nothing would be possible as we get much more and further by working together than alone.
http://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-18/dc-18-speakers.html#Marlinspike
My abilities are only limited by my imagination
what ever happened to owning property?
How can this be considered acurate when the satellite image of my house still contains our pool that has been ripped down for over a year? I sure hope they check the date on the satellite imaagry if they even can see that (not sure if you can). Using unsolictated tools to that arn't officially sanctioned for use like this is sorta ridiculous. Not in a privacy sense, as it is public images, but in a sense on a basis on how feasbile it is as proof when its not a standard tool for that purpose.
Do you have it in a fenced in back yard?
What about the "traditional" points of view but at other wavelengths? If your house is transparent to spectrum X - should you have a reasonable expectation of privacy in say your bedroom?
Some photography laws allow for pictures of private locations from the street, but not using telephoto optics - does that apply to satellites and airplanes use? Perhaps you could make the jurisdiction argument, but if your "camera" is located outside of the jurisdiction, but the person pulling the shutter is within the jurisdiction (e.g. programmed flight, camera, and receives images) does that muddy the waters?
I don't think this excellent reference even addresses the issue at hand.
The building permit isn't the major cost. Pools increase a property's tax rate. This is the main benefit a building permit gives to municipalities. The property tax increases by a bit more than 1%.
This story reminds me of Adam Smith's reasoning of why properties in his time should have been taxed based on the number of windows, rather than hearths: both for privacy reasons (you can count windows from the outside, whereas hearths require entering the home) and to make evasion harder. When tax assessment time came around, people would brick up their hearths. Sure, you could brick up windows, but since they could be observed any time without you knowing, it makes it much harder to do.
But yeah, maybe we have a problem with the fact that the pool requires a permit, but that's a different issue. Hopefully sitting in an office using Google Earth means they're not driving around wasting gas, or hiring a plane as you mentioned.
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
While the fines are annoying - they make sense in the current tax climate (Rich go mostly untaxed by historical standards, the rest have comparatively less than ever to tax).
The real benefit to these actions, however, are being able to identify abandoned pools and other standing water that mosquitoes can breed in. Just a little specialized oil put onto the surface prevents the nymph-stage mosquitoes from breathing at the surface of the water, and doesn't harm other species at the same time, and is a very cost efficient method of preventing many diseases.
Ryan Fenton
I heard about the city hiring minimum wage college students to drive around neighborhoods looking for houses that looked like they had recently had work done.
They'd then check to see if there were permits pulled, and if not schedule a "reappraisal" of the property. My understanding is that the results in property tax increases more than paid for the employees for the 1st year.
This is just using aerial photos instead of driving down the street. They could have hired a plane to look for them as well, but this is a better use of Taxpayer dollars.
I do not have much of an expectation of privacy in regard to my front & back yard. If they were looking through windows that would be different IMO (I have an assumed right to privacy within my house & garage)
Sounds like "sour grapes" on the part of people who tried to cheat the system and were caught.
First off I am not a fan of Governmental regulation. I had and issue with a my township and a portable pool. The fact is that you have no expectation of privacy in you own back yard as far as aircraft are concerned. The basic rule of thumb is that anything viewable with out special equipment is considered public and a plane is not considered "special equipment". I think the licensing that they are talking about is actually the building permit with inspection documentation. Swimming pools are considered by the courts as "attractive hazards" That is why cities, towns, townships, states all require certain types of fencing, gates, locks, etc. It is also and insurance issue. See what happens when you add a pool and notify your home owners insurance company.
But just in case there's a problem. I hereby officially close the airspace above my property.
Nullius in verba
They are doing it already in Argentina for years now... Checking for illegal pools and buildings through Google Maps and airborne photos...
The next thing.
Is Google evil?
I love Google, as long as it always helps me.
But why couldn't the government ferret out this information without Google? Aren't they the ones who put the satellites up there in the first place?
Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
The first thing I thought of was a scene from a Cheech & Chong movie where they covered up a growing area with a tarp that looked like a swimming pool. I know... just the opposite of what we want.
Seriously, unlicensed pool? Camouflage it! Sheesh!
Press releases: the newest method for rich people to whine.
I have to wonder why state employees were looking at back yards on Google Earth in the first place. Which came first - looking at (spying on) the back yards - or hey, we need to catch people with illegal swimming pools. I have a great idea, why don't we use Google Earth?
http://www.acetonestudio.com
I am sick of these freeloaders who want to skip out on paying their taxes and simple city fees. Schools, roads, police and fire departments are not free. Nor is the military and national defense. Stop whining about taxes and realize that they make our lives better. Like that one guy's sig: "with taxes I purchase civilization"
I would love to lay a giant sheet of light blue plastic (like a huge tarp) and just wait for the government to show up.
I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
Pool covers... that look like grass!
Someone make them now, they'll sell like hot cakes. Also pool canopies that look like lawn from above too.
As repulsive as this is at first look, on second look I get it.
IANAL but if people are supposed to get permits for things and they don't they are breaking some law or rule or code which should be enforced. And this isn't infringing like gay sex in the bedroom invasion of privacy stuff, it's a pool. Out in the yard. Where everybody driving around the neighborhood can probably see it. Sometimes a big in ground pool. Hopefully the town won't go after everybody - FYI the town ordinance is every pool containing water 18" or deeper - yes eighteen inches of water or more - needs a permit. I would personally like to think the town enforcement won't be pricks about this and only go after real pools, not tiny inflatable things, but that's a judgement call an the idiocy of the ordinance and not Google Earth usage, which seems ok to me.
Oh, and on the bright side, I haven't heard of the town telling anybody to take down a pool or fill in an in ground pool, so things could be much worse.
Laughing my ass off right now at all the "information wants to be free" Wikileaks supporting nutjobs wrenching themselves in half over the gubbermint tap dancing on their ass to the same tune. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if this story about the pools and the FBI issuing takedown notices over the misuse of its logo weren't part of a coordinated attack to teach some reality to said nutjobs. Putting the genie in the bottle is out of that bottle. Figure that out you wingnuts!
Seriously? You live somewhere where the neighbor's power and gas lines go through YOUR yard? Do you not attach to them along a power/gas right-of-way, perhaps in an adjacent alley?
Here, my power and gas go straight back on my property to the utility right-of-way; the gas to a regulated manifold, the power lines to our step-down transformer; if I cut my lines, I only screw myself.
A utility right of way is what is supposed to give them the land rights to prevent exactly the kind of stupidity (on the part of the utility) you're talking about. Wiring (or plumbing) two properties in parallel through one property seems like the kind of thing only an idiot would do.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
People should draw picture of a pool on their backyard. :)
I heard some military bases draw fake equipments and vehicles on the ground.
That would be fun.
..are those that aren't dependent on the services or income that is provided by the taxes.
Don't think you ever need the fire or police department.
Don't think you ever need a public library.
Don't think you ever need the public works department (roads paved, cleared in winter etc..)
And I hope they don't have children that go to a public school.
To those that don't want to pay taxes, shut up and pay your fair share.
Some nerd was using Google Earth to find naked chicks near pools so he could test out his new software that zooms & increases image quality. When his boss found out he was looking at Google Maps too much the highly intelligent response was that he developed a new way to increase revenue by looking for unlicensed pools and structures. Bravo!
This simple isn't new. Municipalities have been doing it for years. The use of Google Earth may be new but not relevant or note worthy.
Pay the tax. Come on, if you have a pool, you can pay the $300 fee for it. You don't get to whine about how horrible it is that the government is doing their job efficiently.
Don't want to pay the tax? Change the law. Don't like your local government enforcing the law? CHANGE IT!
Regards
Zoning is important. It's what keeps cities from looking like spaghetti. My wife used to work in the local city's plans and permits division. You'd be amazed what some people come in there looking to do. Zoning is a good thing and having qualified engineers review your plans is super important - trust me.
And FWIW, $75,000 was collected for 250 people. That's $75000/250=$300 bucks per person. That's the fine - I'm guessing the permit would be cheaper. Three hundred bucks to have a qualified engineer review your pool plans to make sure it's not a deathtrap that will kill your neighbor's kids when they sneak into it is money well spent. To my way of thinking it is an excellent thing these guys are using Google Earth to go find these cheap morons. Another example of technology making the world a better place.
It is worth mentioning though that the permit might be more expensive than the fine. Sometimes that is the case. I know of an example. My wife used to tell people straight up when they would try to purchase the "moving a huge thing through your city on the freeway" permit. She'd tell them the cost. They would complain. Smart ones would ask them how much the fine is, and she would tell them the truth - a number about half the cost of the permit. They would both share a laugh, and she would wish them a good day and hang up.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
considering 50% of the citizens don't pay income taxes, I agree! it is time for them to start paying their fair share...
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
Flamebait! Awesome!!!! Look, I dragged a libtard mod out of the closet!
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
I think before you mention something about paying your fair share of taxes, try doing a search for the highest taxed areas in the US. I'm pretty sure long island comes up at the top very close to that.
Fair share went out the door a long time ago. Besides this isn't a tax, it's paying to get a permit.
... which is vital. If a person builds a pool and skips out of the permit, they could find themselves in dire straits should someone ever drown in said pool. If proper safety specs are not met, the pool could be dangerous in how it was designed and built. And in some cases, if a person is too cheap to get the permit, they're likely getting the pool for as cheap as possible.
Permits are necessary for displacement of land. If you remove trees to put in your pool, you're losing one of natures ways of keeping erosiion under control and other environmental issues that might take place. When a neighborhood gets some massive flooding, and the county has worked to ensure proper drainage for that home and neighborhood and now someone comes along and builds a pool without considering that drainage, that pool may upset the designed flow and cause flooding in certain circumstances.
Besides, permits that they are dodging, their may be additional taxes and proper insurance that is required. People who do this are very selfish.
I think (not sure) that city govt. personnel don't have permission to just walk onto someone's property even if they suspect unlawful building. Google Earth allows the city/county employees to perform the jobs that we, the tax payers pay them to do without violating any laws.
I'm perfectly happy that they have found a safe and legal way of enforcing city/county ordinances.
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
why is it the self professed 'defenders of liberty' don't seem motivated enough to actually exercise their liberty and work to change the laws that they seem to detest so much?
Maybe, just maybe, you really are a crackpot and are 'wrong'? just sayin
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
What happened in this specific case-- a pool-- was that a pool naturally attracts children. So you have to put up fences. And if you don't have kids, that won't get you off-- because kids might trespass in your yard to swim in your pool. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
In a sane world, if your kids drowned in my pool, on my property without my permission, you, as their parent, would be held responsible for trespassing, and that would be the end of my involvement in it, other than cleaning them out of my filter. Additionally, if your kids are too fucking stupid / incompetent to survive a swim, then perhaps its best if they die anyway... a neutering might be a good punishment for you as well, seeing that as a parent, you're a complete and utter failure.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
No, you just posted a flamebait-laden reply to something, and someone decided (justifiably) to spend their mod points on it.
When you write a post constructing a strawman, and then calling people names for "supporting" your strawman, you tend to attract flamebait mods.
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
The city in which I live has outrageously high property and vehicle tax. The saving grace is that property is valued lower than surrounding areas so the actual taxes paid are somewhat comparable. Vehicle tax, however is even higher than in some wealthy towns in the region. So what do a lot of people do? Register their cars out of state. A friend who worked at a dealer for a while told me that on a regular basis someone will ask to have their car registered out of state. Supposedly there are city employees responsible for finding these tax dodgers but they obviously aren't doing their job particularly. In my immediate area there are several people with out of state plates who apparently haven't been caught in at least a year.
I believe the government is overtaxing us. I'm convinced high taxes will never help the economy. That said, the law is the law and I fully support the government going after people who haven't followed proper procedure and are dodging taxes.
I don't swim in my drinking water, you arrogant government shill.
Some of us have our priorities, and storing that much water in one large container is more environmentally aware than storing that much water in plastic bottles that release dangerous levels of estrogen into the environment.
Don't even touch my doorknob, and if I catch you TAKING photographs of my private proverty than I will throw big rocks at your head.
Child falls into pool, drowns. Worse yet -- child playing in pool, pool drain unsafe, disembowels child by sucking out colon through anus -- not funny, happened in my home town recently, the girl died a couple of days later.
Are towns on a money grab? Probably.
Is it true that there is "too little discussion about community norms" ...? Of course not -- go surf blogs, tweet some tweets -- this world is not lacking for discussion.
-kgj
No, but if the pool had been licensed, the friend would have been able to sue the city for millions of dollars.
So the US pay officials to spend hours poring over Google maps to find violations, whereas India sets up a Facebook page to report violations and instantly rakes in the dough. Knowing suburban neighbours, I'll give good odds as to which method will yield better results for pool violations...
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Jeremy, you need to learn the difference between a "strawman" and an accurate analogy employed for illustrative purposes. Analogies are what us literate types use to illustrate a concept that folks like you don't get first time around. Check 'em out online. Analogies are quite useful, presuming the recipient has enough mental horsepower to work them out.
Which may, of course, leave you out, just as it did the moderator, that highly-qualified individual slashdot randomly handed the power to apply censorship instead of response. BTW, that "highly qualified" portion was "sarcasm", another fine conversational mode you may not understand.
If you need more of a righteous beating, I'll be here all day, applying my clue-stick to stupid posts like yours with nothing less than glee. :)
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
In Italy at national level they've mapped the entire territory through highly detailed aerial photos, then superimposed those images on the topographical maps of registered buildings (from the house registers, or "catasto").
Here is the translated article.
They found that way more than 2 million unregistered houses ("ghost houses", where ghost stays for the owners who should have asked permissions first and then pay taxes on those houses), made a public chart of it, then sent all data to all involved municipalities (the ones that should have got that tax money and may now claim it).
It was a huge load of work that took 4 years of efforts and certainly high amounts of money, though aerial photos have been possibly those of one or the other commercial operator like this.
Seen how in Italy entire entire "ghost town" have been built over time without the house registers or other officials noticing, this was too a huge step forward to fight against illegality.
In other news the sales of swimming pool sized military style camouflage meshes is up in the New York area...
You can't handle the truth.
Have you heard of the concept of "attractive nuisance"? When you're building a pool, you know - unless you're an idiot - that it's going to attract the attention of kids and that not all kids will have learned to swim (or even have had the opportunity to do so) and you can't expect kids to assess risk. The law on attractive nuisance exists because of dangerous assholes like you who will quite happily build pools with no fences, knowing that they will attract small kids and that some of them will drown in it, because they think that any kid who doesn't miraculously have the full knowledge and skills of a normal adult deserves to die as a result.
It's called zoning and planning, but what it is, is malignant interference with your liberties.
If it's your land, and what you do there does not physically affect anything beyond your land's boundaries (chemical, fire, high level sound waves, overhangs, undermining, water flow... the obvious things) then I really can't see the government having any role at all.
The swimming pool is considered an "attractive nuisance." On a hot summer's day it has the potential to draw in every kid in the neighborhood.
Your neighbors don't like coming home to see a hearse pulling around the back of your house. They don't want to hear that a toddler drowned in your pool.
They don't want to hear that a nine year girl old was electrocuted in your pool.
Sure. It's ridiculous. Anything else you want to know? Now, have you heard of the concept of raising children with supervision until they are capable enough to go unsupervised, and then letting them go unsupervised?
Perhaps more to the point, have you heard of the word "responsibility"?
Why should *I* be responsible to fence my property in order to try and (inadequately and inappropriately and indirectly) parent your children for you?
If you want to have kids, you bear the responsibility for that decision. In every way. Not me. I didn't ask you to have kids, and I could care less if you do or not. Just keep them out of my yard and you, and I, will never have an issue. Think you can do that? If you can't, please abstain from having children. Thank you.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Locally, inspectors know 'who did the work'
I've hired many different plumbers and electricians for work.
some people, they check up very closely on, some they don't.
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
It's threads like this that are the cancer that is killing slashdot. Fuck each and every one of you who has made this story into a total fucking waste of my time with your stupid fucking left / right talking points bullshit. Each of you have totally ignored what the article was about and instead have engaged in masturbation of your own ego's. I hate all of you and hope you die of the AIDS from swimming in these pools. Above ground or not...
Hackernews is looking better all the time...
Because, as economics teaches us, every buyer always manages to obtain perfect information about what they're buying.
Are you adequate?
How is this marked "Troll"? It seems very relevant to the discussion.
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
You need a license to have a pool in your back yard? You're living in the wrong country, my laddie...
Zoning is about regulating the uses of land: for example, to forbid your new neighbor from turning his house in your quiet neighborhood into a loud, high-traffic business. The pool permits stuff is about enforcement of building codes, which exist for safety.
Why is this distinction important? Because one can reasonably be very critical of zoning policies in the USA while approving of the general building codes.
Are you adequate?
Look, another moron moderator! Hey, cluetard, explaining how a mismoderated post fits into the topic at hand is not offtopic. Just so you know. Oh, I'm sorry, first language not English? Moderator powers awarded randomly? Just clicking the pretty buttons? Aw, how cute. :o)
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
These people who have surreptitiously built pools are in the wrong on two counts. Firstly, if the pools are not properly inspected when built, a corner cutting contractor [Nah.... these don't exist... ] could omit key items that could be critical for structural or electrical safety. Secondly, they are enjoying a valuable piece of property whilst not paying property tax on it. Since I pay property taxation on the full value of my house, I resent this sort of cheating. It forces up the millage for the rest of us. Since the town can now find these scofflaws at minimal cost, I expect as a taxpayer that it do so.
Moderation points are awarded randomly, and meta-moderation doesn't work. That's most of what you need to know to understand slashdot moderation.
Consequently, the primary use of negative moderation on slashdot is as censorship, but it only hides posts from those who don't set their comment threshold to -1, so it's kind of a wash.
Though I have to say, the opportunities to torment the clueless moderators are endlessly entertaining. :)
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
I don't have a problem with this.
First off, it saves someone driving around, waste gas, time, going thru peoples property, risking animal attacks, etc.
You build something, get the permit. If you don't get the permit, make sure you can't see what you built from the sky.
Ya, the gov needs money. So expect this, and everything else they've been lax on to be happening.
those unpaid parking tickets they normally did nothing about? Don't be surprised when your car is missing, probably got towed. And hey, if you don't have the money to pay it, you can buy it back at the next auction.
Be seeing you...
Yes, because two year olds who can't swim are obviously too fucking stupid / incompetent to be allowed to live. We should try to make the world more dangerous, so we can filter out these morons who aren't contributing anything to society.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
what will they do then
why is it the self professed 'defenders of liberty' don't seem motivated enough to actually exercise their liberty and work to change the laws that they seem to detest so much?
I don't know about 'self-professed defenders', but people who actually care about liberty are moving to New Hampshire and some of the ones who have moved already are working with local groups like the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance to get those laws changed.
The results are good to date. As just one example, as of a few weeks ago there are no longer any illegal knives in New Hampshire. It's going to take a while to unwind 150+ years of bad law, but we're making progress.
When 20,000 more liberty lovers move en masse to propel the effort forward, it will get even better.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
proof by analogy is fraud
Also, I forgot to mention, the correct way to read negative moderation on slashdot is "-1, Disagree, but incompetent to respond"
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
lol, the next thing you know you'll be paying taxes just to be able to own a TV!
I commend people making such efforts and their willingness to relocate to chase their goals.
Seriously, I do.
There are far far more people who just complain without any effort at all to remedy the problems they are complaining about.
I also look forward to Libertarianism's downfall as it simply isn't sustainable. Laws exist because someone was encroaching on something someone else felt they deserved. At some point those two forces intersect and that's where laws are made to set the rules. I see Libertarianism as the willingness to say, and to accept, 'tough deal with it' as an answer to your perceived being wronged. Not a lot of people share that view me thinks...
We can argue about where the line of intersection falls, but it will always be there.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
If I don't pay RENT I get the boot. If I don't pay "tax" on my home I get the boot and likely get screwed out a fair value of my stuff affixed to that land (the buildings) because a tax auction is not usually as fair as selling a house. There are plenty of rules, regulations, and ordinances for living on this land as well just as there is with rent. I'm even forced to pay for garbage service from a duopoly. How is this not like rent??
Oh and if you rent-- part of your rental payments is also property tax - around here it is itemized and last I heard, it came out to about 2/5 the total rent! So then you are paying rent to the government just for SHELTER in my city! (its not quite direct since the landlord collects it... makes interest from it...until handing it over to the gov.) Only way out is to be homeless, which is pretty much a crime here if they spot you looking homeless. I bet we have 100s we don't know about because of this cover up policy.
-
Homesteads under X dollar amount should never be taxed. Other property and expensive homesteads should be (so bill gates doesn't homestead a million acres.)
Like to build stuff? Well, how would you like it if you make yourself a great house and then lost it because your value went up too much?
Don't get me started with the county tax assessor who you must let inspect your house or they screw you on its value - you can deny the police entry using your rights but not the tax assessor; they will penalize you. If they want to tax on value they should do it when the house is SOLD instead they estimate it. Then we have the whole history of discrimination of abuse using the property tax system... it has helped many cities steal land cheaply from farmers for expansion.
Furthermore, many areas of the USA have inadequate services like SCHOOLS because its based on property taxes. So a child in a poor area is discriminated against not only from his parents house value but all the other houses around them. This makes some states dumber than others. I had a talk with an idiot from Georgia one day - he bragged how smart they were for only paying $300 per year on his million dollar house but how bad their schools were! He had to pay $30k per year to get his kid a decent education! Claimed public schools don't work. He also complained about the lazy people around him and how many couldn't read etc.... His state is near bottom on everything and he was lecturing me about how wrong my highly ranked state was?
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
not nearly as bad as those towns that actually limit what color you paint YOUR house. this is one of the things that makes me sick. if i buy a house, i should be able to paint it whatever color or design i want.
Yes, and all generalizations are false.
Idiot.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Ok, genius: Under exactly what acceptable parenting circumstances would your two year olds be trespassing on my property, unsupervised by you?
[crickets]
[birds chirping]
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Having something that is potentially dangerious unsecured, is the act of stupidity or recklessness.
Theres a reason why all guns have a saftey, just as theres reason why all pools should be gated.
In a world where you had pure freedoms to do what you like, it'd be acceptable. So would killing people outright for any or no reason at all.
Theres a compromise involved. If such a drowning did happen, i'd blame both parties involved. The parents for loosing track of their child, and the pool owner for having a pool so easy to access that a child managed to get in and drown.
To avoid criticism; Say nothing, Do nothing, Be nothing.
My township here in PA recently started sending inspectors to every home being sold (because that's the only time they can legally do it) to look for non-permitted renovations and other work. If they find that work was done without a permit, they will not issue a new occupancy permit until the work is redone under permit.
It kinda sucks because in my township, you have to buy a $55 permit to replace a $3 electrical receptacle.
Why should *I* be responsible to fence my property in order to try and (inadequately and inappropriately and indirectly) parent your children for you?
The same reason you should be responsible for making sure your house isn't a fire hazard. Or that your car doesn't leak oil all over the road. Or that your toilets aren't dumping raw sewage into your yard and creating a health hazard.
How is this marked "Troll"? It seems very relevant to the discussion.
Because the author seems to have a disconnect between "the way that I wish that things were" and "the way that things are"...
Ok, genius: Under exactly what acceptable parenting circumstances would your two year olds be trespassing on my property, unsupervised by you?
An intruder breaks in and knocks me unconscious, and my two year old children go looking for an adult to help.
A license for pools? What for?
Pfft. Strange laws. I understand a pool must be carefully designed and constructed, but that also applies to the whole house.
Your analogies are not accurate.
All risks are not equal. Not all regulation benefits society.
Some regulation does benefit society. Provably.
Equating building permits with universal mandatory fingerprinting or sex licenses is insane troll logic that gets you shut down really quick.
Also:
"Oh, wait, that would mean freedom, liberty and stuff. You know, stuff that frightens libtards out of their minds, people who have spent their entire lives hanging from the piggy little teats of mommy government, thinking that any degree of safety is worth giving up any amount of freedom. Yeah, much better to assume you're a complete fuckup. I guess you'd better pack up your hands and dick."
Is flamebait, in and of itself, regardless of agreement or disagreement with your position, or the merits of your argument.
I have a cover over mine that is painted to look like some light green bushes so I think I'm safe. I did notice a strange white van from some flower shop I never heard of before (Irene's Flowers maybe) parked across the street recently.. Maybe they are on to my pool.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
Guess it's time to print up some tarpaulins with the image of a swimming pool and stake them up in the backyard just to fuck these bozos.
Is this thread tangential? Yes. Is it completely off topic? No. Is anyone forcing you to read it? No. Are you acting like a drama queen by threatening to go to some other site? Yes. Would anyone care if you left? No.
One of these days I'm going to cut you into little pieces. - PF
Is this thread tangential? Yes. Is it completely off topic? No. Is anyone forcing you to read it? No. Are you acting like a drama queen by threatening to go to some other site? Yes. Would anyone care if you left? No.
I currently have lid-locks on my eye's and am strapped to a chair in the slashdot basement complex...
My local council pays for aerial photography to identify pools that have been built without permits and to detect trees that have been removed illegally (can't cut them down if there is a vegetation protection order on them). I guess some of the cost is recovered by making the images available to Google Earth. Yes, the data goes the other way to that in the story. When I access the council GIS the photos are two years fresher than the ones on Google Earth and are higher res, but that might be due to the photos getting better every year.
I've used aerial photos from other councils in South East Queensland for my work and these were also better than Google Earth
Pool regulations in Queensland are more for safety purposes (as well as building permit purposes) as fences need to comply with Australian Standards. There are moves a foot to charge an annual fee to every poolowner to cover the cost of regular inspections, and knowing where all the pools are would be key to this.
I've heard of several counties doing the AP approach to finding new construction.
Here's a few things you can do about it. These ideas apply to rural residents. I don't think this would work in the city.
A: Get a permit for a cheaper structure. Permit prices are often a percentage of the estimated cost.
So, for example, if you are building in a rural area, you get a permit for a pole barn or equipment shed, build it, inspect it, then put in the concrete floor, power, insulated walls and ceiling, and finish the conversion to your shop.
Or you file plans for a small house, breezeway and large garage, then later convert the breezeway and or part of the garage into more house.
B: Don't file for a permit, but avoid rectangles in the outline of your roof. A combination of multiple shingle colours, judicious use of paint, overhanging trees, living roofs can make the images hard to spot in an AP.
If I were building a pool, I'd be tempted to paint both the surrounding deck and the pool itself a dark colour. If the paint job were mottled a bit, I bet that it would be hard to tell a pool from a freshly tilled garden. Or paint it grass green with a smattering of shrub coloured circles. Of course having a green rectangle in your back yard in January may be a give-away.
C: Periodically buy larger tarps, and stake them out flat. This creates false positives in their scanning process. This can be made more effective by using two colours of tarps so you get the effect of differential lighting on a standard roof. Add a narrow strip of black plastic on the north edge to simulate a shadow...
D. Bylaw enforcement is almost always (up to now) been done by neighbor's complaints. Plant fast growing trees along your boundaries to keep them guessing.
Spoken like someone who's never spent more than 10 seconds around kids. That's about all the time it takes for a child capable of walking to wander off out of view. Kids are curious, often fearless, and not old enough to know any better. Even with excellent parenting they'll find ways to hurt themselves. A little bit of preventive measures to make swimming pools less deadly is not some grave burden upon you.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/the-big-duck-riverhead
The smartest man in the whole, wide world really don't know that much. - Mose Allison
Why stop there, what about unlicensed home extensions or driveways....keep going government, make us hate you more!
How is this insightful? This is wishful thinking at best and naiveness at worst.
I don't necessarily believe a pool can cause damage to neighbors by leaking... never heard of such.
But that doesn't make pixelpusher's comment a TROLL.
If you believe the comment is over-rated then moderate it that way. "Troll"? I think not.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
that you Americans have given us Google Earth and I'm very grateful. I enjoy seeing spots on the map and planning future trips based on my own scouting, rather than books or hearsay
But, using Google Earth to probe peoples private property is a bit extreme. What's next, X-ray google earth? with layers showing the secret dungeon I spent years constructing, only for it to no longer be secret
"Naiveness"? LOL... I guess it is cromulent, when you get right down to it. No need to embiggen the issue, though.
Well, anyway, look. If you have kids, you should probably fence your yard if you'd like to keep them out of hazards, like pools and dumpsters and manholes and so forth, presuming you've not yet trained them properly. This keeps your kids in an area you control and can "make safe." It is reasonably your responsibility to do this, because (wait for it) these are your kids, that you chose to have. Yours. Not anyone else's.
The other way around, that is, requiring everyone else to fence their yards in an attempt to sanitize the environment on your behalf, at direct expense to them, is economically unsound; assigns responsibility to entirely the wrong party; and is just generally stupid.
And yes, like a lot of laws are. I'm well aware that it represents the status quo; however, that is true for a lot of terminally stupid laws, like the drug laws; any law that forbids or limits an act of consensual, informed personal choice where physical and monetary effects are limited to those making said choice; blue laws; government support for superstition (in any form, including religion)... I could go on for quite a while.
Your approach seems to be "no one should object to the status quo." Mine is "when the status quo is harmful or could be bettered, one should speak up and put ideas on the table."
So between my, erm, "naiveness" (still LOL), and your head stuck quite far up your own ass, I'll keep doing it my way, thanks. Cheers.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Well, just so you know, I've got you on my friend's list because I find your posts interesting. So, while it is a form of censorship, at least I get to enjoy reading through them regardless of what the moderators might do. ;)
I do find it disappointing that negative moderation is used as a -1, Disagree; I guess some people are insecure enough with their beliefs that they feel the first thing they should do is squelch you from voicing your own.
(I should note that I have a few people on my friend's list with whom I disagree simply because I find their opinions enlightening, and I'll even periodically upvote them in spite of my disagreement if they make a decent enough point--if not, I just won't do anything. I tend to agree with your opinions, however.)
He who has no
Thanks for your kind words, sir. :)
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.