AppleTV Runs iOS, Already Jailbroken

Wired has noted that "Soon, thanks to the tireless efforts of the iPhone Dev Team, you will be able to install apps on your AppleTV. An upcoming Jailbreak tool, called SHAtter, has already been used to unlock the new Apple TV's firmware." The units are supposedly now shipping. I have a lot of questions about the device (like how will it handle the photo screen saver if your local machines are offline) but hacking it might make the thing more usable (divx please, and how about letting my screen share my desktop to my TV?).

Comments

ARM

[dmitrygr]

does it run ARM?

Re:ARM

[ivucica]

An arm and a leg.

Re:ARM

[ivucica]

Little Timmy, just around the corner.

Re:ARM

[Joe Snipe]

I don't wanna know what discount wholesaler you're getting your body parts from.

I do.

Re:Right place, right time

[sockman]

I see what you did there! You said he should have bought the white-walled tires, instead of the plain black ones if he wanted to have the +1 Ego boost.

Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

hacking it might make the thing more usable

Tragic, of course, that people would buy something so crippled and locked down they must "jailbreak" it to make it more useful.

Certainly this is effort better spent improving solutions that are more open from the get-go?

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Anonymous Coward]

One thing I actually don't understand is how geeks keep rewarding Apple for their efforts of keeping their platforms locked. Just for the fun of "jailbreaking" them.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[0100010001010011]

Separate demographics.

Demographic 1 is my parents. I'd easily get them one of these. Just like I got them a MacMini and put it in SimpleFinder or an iPod nano (1G) and Shuffle (2G). Say what you want about "Windows and Linux are just as easy", but I have never gotten a support call about anything. Heck my mom (technophobic) figured out her iPod all by herself. I had to walk my GF through Lucid's install. She was patient, but it's something my parents wouldn't have stood for.

They replace their BlockBuster/Redbox rentals with something 'On Demand'. Plug and play and I never have to figure it out again.

Demographic 2. Myself. Apple makes some great hardware. The fact that this is just an ARM processor with a GPU decoder means that tinkerers could get XBMC running on it. (They already have a BeagleBoard fork). My Gen 1 AppleTV is one of the best XBMC devices out there. It's TINY, easily fits under the TV. With the Broadcom chip it does 1080p. But I had to 'hack' it to do that. I built my own HTPC, but the smallest cases are still huge compared to the AppleTV. With the AppleTV I can pull it, toss it in my backpack and go over to a friend's house and watch something.

The cheapest ION boxes are $200+. The Boxeebox isn't even a box, it's a pyramid, and again is $229. The AppleTV IS one of the cheapest pieces of hardware out there that will do what I want it.

I just got an iPod Touch 4G to replace my iPod 4G which was on its last legs. It it unbelievably small. It has some great apps, but I want to use it as a GPS device over bluetooth. I did a bit of research, but I still haven't found any device out there that is comparable.

The Archos 43 looks close, but I can't find a price and only goes up to 16GB (*It does have a Mini SD slot)

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[tzhuge]

That's a straw-man.

'People' do not buy something 'they must jailbreak'. The vast majority buy a product that they want because it does enough of what they want for it to be worth the price. The jailbreakers do what they do because they find some enjoyment in doing it. The people who use the product jailbroken are often just messing around. They use jailbreak because the can. Those that buy a product that does not meet their need, then use jailbreak to make the product meet their need are mythical, except perhaps when there are in fact no alternatives at all.

Frankly what's really tragic is that so many people insist on whining about products they clearly don't want instead of just buying and enjoying what they do want. It's also tragic that so many keep rationalizing their 'superior' choice by denigrating others.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Abcd1234]

No kidding!

So I can only assume you've never bought a videogame console, right? Or a handheld videogame system... or a cell phone... or a PMP.. or a PDA...

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Tragic, of course, that people would buy something so crippled and locked down they must "jailbreak" it to make it more useful.

You're mistaking opinion for fact.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

what's really tragic is that so many people insist on whining about products they clearly don't want

I'm more concerned about people encouraging and supporting Apple's attitude of lock down and customer control.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Anonymous Coward]

almost anything we buy can be modified to make it more useful.
doesn't mean that its not useful, or a good value to begin with.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

or a cell phone

N900. Not locked down from the start.

or a PMP

Lockdown on the iPods was added eventually, but the first one I bought I loaded iPodLinux on. No battle for control against Apple.

or a PDA

iPaq. Again, no lockdown. No battle against the vendor for control.

Seriously, how did everyone become convinced that lock down was the default state for all things? Surely we have not been fooled so badly?

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[westlake]

Tragic, of course, that people would buy something so crippled and locked down they must "jailbreak" it to make it more useful.

The iOS device - like the PS3 or Wii - is pefectly tuned for success in its core markets - and there the jailbreak doesn't happen because no one gives a damn about the OtherOS - or whatever else it is that the geek is pining for.

Unless, of course, that what the geek is pining for is a free copy of Fallout: New Vegas or the Blu-Ray screener of Iron Man 3.

The geek buys into the walled garden because the hardware looks cool, stylish and well-built - and because he thinks, rightly or wrongly, that he can bend it to his will.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[sjonke]

Well, yes I agree... except that for those of use who've gone and jailbroken their iphones... now we (or at least many of us) find it hard to live without the jailbreak. I wish Apple would be forced (I can't reasonably expect them to choose) to allow Cydia in the App Store. But... I'm not disagreeing with you, because I love my iPhone even without the jailbreak and I bought it with no expectation of jailbreaking it. I just love it now even more with the Jailbreak... and so I anxiously await the release of a Shatter-based jailbreak so I can upgrade to 4.1 finally. And, moreover, its unlikely I'd buy a new iOS device if I didn't know that it could be jailbroken. It does create a dilemma....

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

The iOS device - like the PS3 or Wii - is pefectly tuned for success in its core markets

The iOS device is not tuned like the PS3 or Wii, Apple is directly targeting iOS devices for general purpose mobile computing and home computing.

and there the jailbreak doesn't happen because no one gives a damn about the OtherOS - or whatever else it is that the geek is pining for.

Indeed, but this does not justify heavy lock down.

Unless, of course, that what the geek is pining for is a free copy of Fallout: New Vegas or the Blu-Ray screener of Iron Man 3.

You insult everyone who appreciates not having lock down, and everyone who has argued against DRM with that bullshit pro-MPAA/pro-RIAA style argument.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

buying an N900 and an iPaq puts you in such a tiny group I think we can safely ignore your opinions

Indeed, it's easy to ignore the minority, especially if they have a point.

. And yet you still bought an iPod, while railing against Apple... bizarre.

Indeed, back in 2003 before they released their later models and started on their lockdown kick.

Meanwhile, have you or have you not bought videogame console or handheld?

No, why on earth would I?

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

Perhaps you should check out the all of the people who buy vanilla routers and "jailbreak" them with aftermarket linux distributions (i.e. openwrt, ddwrt, etc...).

Even those don't require a jailbreak, since if you feed them a firmware they don't go and perform signature checks on the image or kernel or whatnot before deciding whether or not to program or boot.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[zach_the_lizard]

Say what you want about "Windows and Linux are just as easy", but I have never gotten a support call about anything.

I never got a support call from my grandpa about Ubuntu on his desktop either, and it's been there for years. He's the kind of user that scratches his head when you tell him to open a web browser. He stares at you blankly when you ask him to type something in the address bar. His eyes glaze over noticeably when you tell him to Google for something. If he can use Linux comfortably for years without issue, your parents most likely can too.

This threadjacking is now over. We will now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[0100010001010011]

Did you install it for him? Does his printing work (My GF had a Dell printer which didn't?)

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

But while you look at the rest of the world and wonder "why isn't everyone like me?"

I know they aren't like me. That doesn't justify Apple's (and Microsoft's, and Motorola's...) lock down. It serves only them and no one else.

the rest of the world looks at you and thinks "wow, that guy is kinda nuts".

That's fine. Maybe I'll accomplish something instead.

There's nothing wrong with that. But there's nothing "tragic" about people choosing a more pragmatic path for themselves.

Pragmatic, or foolish? All this does is push Apple to pursue the locked down route more and more heavily. I suspect once they reach a certain market percentage they just might apply the TrustZone stuff and start locking stuff down hard. Then where will people be?

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

If you've got some silly issue with the way I wrote a sentence, save it for some other time.

If you've got an issue with my point, please say it.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[lophophore]

Uhh. No.

A friend had one of the original Apple TV boxes. He jailbroke it to run XBMC on it, which he said made it much more useful. He told me he only ran the Apple TV apps when he wanted to access content from the iTunes store. Everything else, he used XBMC.

I jailbroke my XBOX to run XBMC. I had no interested in playing games, but the XBOX makes a decent media player with XBMC.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Abcd1234]

I know they aren't like me. That doesn't justify Apple's (and Microsoft's, and Motorola's...) lock down. It serves only them and no one else.

I disagree. While I don't like involuntary lockdown (ie, I prefer the option to unlock my device if I so choose), lockdown serves one important purpose: It drastically decreases the likelihood of malware infecting the platform. You may see that as an insufficient excuse, but if I ever handed a computer to my grandmother, I'd rather it be a locked down iPad than a Windows PC that's rooted in her first five minutes reading spam from Nigeria.

Pragmatic, or foolish?

If the device works for them, it's pragmatic, end of story.

All this does is push Apple to pursue the locked down route more and more heavily.

Then don't buy Apple's hardware. That's the joy of choice, there's always a competitor, and if Apple's heavy hand becomes too much, people will move to another platform (like, say, Android).

Then where will people be?

Bailing and buying different hardware.

Seriously, you seem to live with this delusion that people are, apparently, under some form of mind control that prevents them from making choices that meet their needs. If Apple no longer meets their needs, they'll find another product. That's the beauty of a healthy marketplace.

So quit being so god damned paranoid and fatalistic. Enjoy the choices you've made, and let others enjoy theirs. And if Apple ties the noose around their own neck, you can feel free to dance around the corpse.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

lockdown serves one important purpose: It drastically decreases the likelihood of malware infecting the platform.

Barely, as we have seen with Apple's pathetic attempts at controlling what goes into the App Store. At best it defends against PEBCAK errors by stripping of them power, but that's just a side effect.

Then don't buy Apple's hardware. That's the joy of choice, there's always a competitor, and if Apple's heavy hand becomes too much, people will move to another platform (like, say, Android).

And yet Android vendors all force the end user to root the device, or worse they go Motorola's route and make installation of 3rd party ROMs impossible. Microsoft is moving in the same direction as Apple. There seems to be this nasty, nasty trend of pushing mobile computing towards a state of lock-down-by-default with no means to unlock and I'm pretty sure that in a few years these devices (tablets, phones and all) will have computing power sufficient for the majority of people.

Seriously, you seem to live with this delusion that people are, apparently, under some form of mind control that prevents them from making choices that meet their needs.

Mind control, no. Completely ignorant and being taken advantage of, yes. They'll make choices that meet their needs, sure, but were systems this locked down ~20 years ago when I got into computers, I'd probably have gotten nowhere at all.

So quit being so god damned paranoid and fatalistic.

I have yet to see how I am being paranoid when the majority of vendors are locking devices down.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[tepples]

Meanwhile, have you or have you not bought videogame console or handheld?

No, why on earth would I?

Consoles have far more titles in some genres than PCs do. What's a good PC alternative to, say, Smash Bros. or Animal Crossing or Super Mario Galaxy? As for gaming handhelds, the only open ones (GP2X, GP2X Wiz, and Pandora) aren't sold in U.S. stores.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[jason.sweet]

certainly you should sort out your own capitalization before criticizing other people's punctuation?

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[recoiledsnake]

I don't understand why Apple gets a free pass on everything from many otherwise intelligent people on here whereas MS gets demonized regardless of what they do.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

you cowardly backed out of it at the end

Oh come the fuck on man.

maintaining a platform layer that spans from the hardware to application software user interface is not something that works well when certain aspects of the platform are not locked down.

Bullshit. Or are you saying that we should have our PCs locked down hard. You know, for our own sake. To save us from ourselves?

the real issue is whether you believe "possibly confusing a logical user" is something that should be allowed as a result of the platform.

How does having the option to not be forced through whatever monetized channels the vendor has set up qualify as "possibly confusing a logical user," unless you're arguing that all users are fucking retarded and need to be told what to do on a daily basis.

In which case you, I, and all of Slashdot are fucked as we're obviously not competent enough to live.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[tepples]

N900. Not locked down from the start.

Back in May, I went to three cell phone stores in my home town in the midwestern United States and none had an N900 for me to try.

or a PMP

Lockdown on the iPods was added eventually, but the first one I bought I loaded iPodLinux on.

No longer available for sale.

or a PDA

iPaq

Those are still in stock, but the $299 model appears to have only 0.25 GB of flash compared to 8 GB of flash for the $229 iPod touch. And are there enough like-minded WM6 PDA owners to make developing software for WM6 PDAs viable?

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[tepples]

Then don't buy Apple's hardware.

Likewise, don't want a locked-down game console? Then don't buy Sony's, Microsoft's, or Nintendo's console.

That's the joy of choice, there's always a competitor

What's the open competitor to the aforementioned consoles? What can I drag out to play video games on when my friends visit without PCs in tow?

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Abcd1234]

They'll make choices that meet their needs, sure, but were systems this locked down ~20 years ago when I got into computers, I'd probably have gotten nowhere at all.

And, once again, I repeat, if the consumers don't like it, *they'll choose an alternative*.

20 years ago, lockdown was the norm. Finding a fucking *compiler* that didn't cost hundreds or thousands of dollars was completely impossible. But things changed. Why? Consumer choice.

So if the consumers don't like it, they'll choose something else. Meanwhile, there will always be niche products that are hackable, just as there's always been.

Frankly, the computing industry has *never been this healthy*. There's a broader choice of hardware vendor and operating system than there has ever been. Period. WinMo, WebOS, iOS, BBOS, Android, QNX, Symbian, soon MeeGo... the environment for competition and innovation is stunning. And if it turns out that that the locked down platforms become too onerous, then the open ones will win. End of story.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

Back in May, I went to three cell phone stores in my home town in the midwestern United States and none had an N900 for me to try.

Which, in the context of this argument, is beside the point.

No longer available for sale.

My point was that some time in the past, Apple sold hardware that wasn't locked down from the get go.

Those are still in stock, but the $299 model appears to have only 0.25 GB of flash compared to 8 GB of flash for the $229 iPod touch. And are there enough like-minded WM6 PDA owners to make developing software for WM6 PDAs viable?

Again, my point was to contradict the person I was replying to who suggested that all such devices were locked down. I countered with the point that this lock down trend is a completely new thing.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Abcd1234]

What's the open competitor to the aforementioned consoles? What can I drag out to play video games on when my friends visit without PCs in tow?

Way to artificially limit the discussion. Why would you exclude PCs as an option, given that's the obvious solution? Particularly given the high-powered, compact options available these days? Just get yourself a Revo and a couple USB joysticks, plug it into an HDMI-equipped display, and enjoy.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

20 years ago, lockdown was the norm. Finding a fucking *compiler* that didn't cost hundreds or thousands of dollars was completely impossible.

20 years ago, GCC did exist. That's just being closed source, not locked down (IE your system didn't employ DRM of various sorts to keep you contained.)

And if it turns out that that the locked down platforms become too onerous, then the open ones will win. End of story.

I certainly hope so. But the ignorance in the public combined with their inertia might make that nigh upon impossible if the vendors have their way. Certainly encouraging it by buying into it is foolhardy.

But we're going in circles now.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[UnknowingFool]

Personally I would like to see someone make it a MythTV frontend. To build your own frontend with similar specs would run into the hundreds of dollars and wouldn't be this small.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[MorpheousMarty]

I have a friend who thinks just like you do, and I will offer two rebuttals:

1. A lot of products are more useful if you use them not as intended. It doesn't mean the original use case is worthless, just that it can be made more worthwhile. I'm not supposed to use bittorrent to download copyrighted materials, doesn't mean it's worthless for distributing linux distros.

2. "Unofficial" uses give manufactures protection against legal attacks. Sure, giving an Apple product access to the App store isn't exactly sticking it to the man, but jailbreaking iOS device to run wifi only Apps in 3g is exactly the kind of added functionality a manufacturer couldn't provide "out of box". Apple can't let apps run wild that way because of ATT, but if jailbreakers are able to do so Apple isn't responsible (at least it will be very difficult to hold them).

And so the fact that Apple TV can be made better may be to the advantage of both users and manufacturers, not a mark against the original product which is not much more expensive than a usb n-wifi receiver.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Richard_at_work]

That's the power of hatred and idolisation - neither have a requirement for rationalism.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[tzhuge]

Why? Setting aside this notion that anybody actually takes the position of 'I support lock down and customer control'. Why are you concerned?

Apple's approach doesn't preclude alternatives right? And open is better than closed right? So what's the concern? Whatever additional factors such as marketing, or fashion, anybody conveniently wants to blame for Apple's success, are these things unavailable to open products?

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[guspasho]

FWIW, I bought the Xbox 1 because it was such a powerful media center after it was jailbroken, and that's the only reason I am now considering AppleTV. I can't wait for XBMC to get ported to it!

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[ceoyoyo]

Sure! You could buy a pay-per-view box from your cable provider. Oh, wait....

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[phoenixwade]

Again, my point was to contradict the person I was replying to who suggested that all such devices were locked down. I countered with the point that this lock down trend is a completely new thing.

Apples lockdown of iPods have become more difficult to bypass as time has gone by, but it has been their intent and focus to lock the iPods to iTunes since the 1G 5gb card deck unit 7 or 8 years ago. The initial methodology was obfuscation of the media directory, which was easily bypassed by even the most novice of experimental users. But, none-the-less, they did lock down the first and every iPod since, just using more and more sophisticated methodology. Yeah, but this lockdown thing isn't a new thing. As far back as I can remember we've been dealing with locked software and/or hardware on a variety of devices. The RIM Blackberries and virtually all smart phones have been locked down by the carrier, if not the manufacturer, at least five years. Basically, your idea "that this lock down trend is a completely new thing." is crap, and just because you say it's so, doesn't change history.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

Apple can't let apps run wild that way because of ATT

Actually they could. If AT&T had that kind of control you wouldn't be able to use any non-approved phone on AT&T's service yet they have no approval requirements.

jailbreaking iOS device to run wifi only Apps in 3g is exactly the kind of added functionality a manufacturer couldn't provide "out of box".

Sure they could, they've just agreed not to. Just like how Samsung compromised on the voice call functionality of the Galaxy Tab, but only for the US models.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[mlts]

I am actually amazed Apple has not used TrustZone and the no executable features of the ARM chipsets yet.

What is going to drive Apple to actually start doing the modifications to iOS to make it able to deal with the two world concept of TrustZone are most likely app pirates. Apple never cares about items like LockScreen, but what will get developers to abandon the iOS platform in droves are seeing apps they worked on being put on a site to be downloaded in bulk by freeloaders. Google has a secondary mechanism in place so it doesn't matter if an Android phone is rooted or not, app pirates have to crack each app one by one. It would be nice to see Apple do the same, so they can focus less on making their iOS devices locked down, and more on cool new features.

So, when Apple does start using TrustZone, and having the apps run in the insecure world... you can thank the app pirates for that.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

Why are you concerned?

Because if you hadn't noticed, pretty much every other vendor seems to be following Apple's lead. Both in hardware design and in the belief that lock down is good. That diminishes my ability to avoid lock down.

I wouldn't give a damn if vendors offered the ability to easily unlock their devices in a fashion similar to the Nexus One (or better yet, the N900) but not a single one does. They either force you to find a hole and exploit it or make it nigh upon impossible (Motorola loves this path.)

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Circuit Breaker]

> 20 years ago, lockdown was the norm. Finding a fucking *compiler* that didn't cost hundreds or thousands of dollars was completely impossible. But things changed. Why? Consumer choice.

Maybe on your planet.

Here on planet earth, 20 years ago:
- Turbo Pascal was $50 since .. 1985 or so? (I think it was still called "Compass Pascal" then)
- Basic was just disappearing from the DOS of the time (GWBasic), and reappearing as cut-down QuickBasic
- GCC version 1 was available
- Every computer before the IBM PC came with usable Basic (I still used my C64 in 92 -- though not its basic). The BBC-B additionally had a built in Assembler. The Apple ][ (circa '78) additionaly had a built in Machine Code monitor.
- Mix C, a very able development environment, was $30

Lockdown was definitely NOT the norm. No system provider actively tried to thwart modifications back then for anything less than a Mainframe -- although that's around the time the trend started (Lexmark printer cartridges; SNES cartridges; etc.)

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[jedidiah]

> Did you install it for him? Does his printing work (My GF had a Dell printer which didn't?)

Is this supposed to be an attempt to claim that a Mac does printing better than Linux?

If so then all you've done is just demonstrated a clear lack of understanding of how MacOS is put together.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[jedidiah]

> So I can only assume you've never bought a videogame console, right? Or a handheld videogame system... or a cell phone... or a PMP.. or a PDA...

Actually, my PMP is open in all of the ways that an Apple PMP isn't.

That is why it is the most used PMP in my family despite the fact that we have multiple generations of iDevices.

It beats out multiple iphones and the ipad in actually being used by end users.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

The initial methodology was obfuscation of the media directory, which was easily bypassed by even the most novice of experimental users.

You'll notice that the old media directory was set up not to hinder people's usage of the device, but to constrain file path lengths. This had a direct impact on the size of the database loaded on the iPod and thus the amount of RAM required to store it. Arguably, the HFS+ dependence was a greater impediment to use of the device.

The RIM Blackberries and virtually all smart phones have been locked down by the carrier, if not the manufacturer, at least five years.

Yes, over the last 5 years vendors and carriers have gotten more punitive regarding device features as their capabilities have grown. This, however, is not and has not been the default in computing until lately (and lately doesn't mean "the last 6 months" or even "the last 2 years")

But go ahead, make your point. I suppose that justifies the lock down of devices and makes it a good thing?

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[jedidiah]

> lockdown serves one important purpose: It drastically decreases the likelihood of malware infecting the platform.

No it doesn't. Sane OS design does.

This is why a Mac is no more insecure than an iPad despite being as much in the control of the user as a PC running WinDOS.

Malware is just an excuse meant to be convincing to rubes.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[jedidiah]

> 20 years ago, lockdown was the norm. Finding a fucking *compiler* that didn't cost hundreds
> or thousands of dollars was completely impossible. But things changed. Why? Consumer choice.

You mean like gcc or sozobon?

If you are going to make up shit about the past, try to do it with people that weren't engaging in Usenet flamewars 20 years ago.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[jedidiah]

Now that home computers are becoming re-united with TVs, that trend might reverse. While EA might snicker at "a Revo plus some wireless joypads", I could see Steam getting in on that action.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[jedidiah]

>> Tragic, of course, that people would buy something so crippled and locked down they must "jailbreak" it to make it more useful.
>
> You're mistaking opinion for fact.

Well? Can it play my DNLA shares? My AFS shares? My SMB shares? My BD rips? My DVD rips? My cable TV recordings? My OTA recordings? Grandmas vacation video?

It's good that the ATV is cheap because you need another box to handle what it won't.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[MorpheousMarty]

I started those statements stating it was a legal issue. I know they aren't technical problems.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[jedidiah]

> Personally I would like to see someone make it a MythTV frontend. To
> build your own frontend with similar specs would run into the hundreds
> of dollars and wouldn't be this small.

It remains to be seen whether or not the new AppleTV is even the equal of the old AppleTV.

I'm certainly not holding my breath.

If anything, the new AppleTV is probably only useful as a cheap headless server when jailbroken. It might be useful as a dedicated slave backend attached to something like a Hauppauge 1212 or as a dedicated mail server.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[C10H14N2]

It's funny, because the problem is the same on both sides: Ego. Steve Jobs' planetoid ego permeates everything about Apple. However, having screamed and nearly smashed my jailbroken iPhone as it melted into a mess of cobbled-together crap in dependency chaos, it strikes me that the collective egos of the Jailbreakers are just as bad. They assume free is better in all cases, no matter if that means completely obliterating the actual intended purpose of the item in question or making the continued use of it such a tiresome exercise in maintenance that it might as well be a brick. No, better is better. Free is free. The twain _rarely_ meet. When they do, glorious, but let's not fool ourselves.

It reminds me of the old Laurie Anderson bit:

"In our country, you’re free and so you’re born and so they say, You’re free, so happy birthday. And even if you were born to lose--even if you were a complete wreck when you were born--you might still grow up to be president ... because you’re free." ...but, you won't.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Abcd1234]

Here on planet earth, 20 years ago:

Yes, I'm aware I'm old. I actually meant 30 years ago, during the dawn of the computer era... alas my math hasn't caught up with my age. :(

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Score Whore]

What's the open competitor to the aforementioned consoles?

What stops you from making said console? There's more to being a responsible human being that merely having a desire for something. Usually you have to either build it yourself or somehow provide a good or service that you can trade for the product you so desire. If the product you want is exceptionally exotic then you may have to pay a significant premium. Regardless, no one in the entire universe is obligated to provide you with prepackaged goods.

You have a choice here, 1) just accept what others are willing to provide, or 2) create your own product. If you are correct in your assessment of what people want then you will be successful. I doubt that you'll be successful.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

Well then the only obvious solution is to strip users of any and all freedom.

Or perhaps the problem is trying to jam a system full of dependencies on top of a system that doesn't have any support for dependency resolution.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[jason.sweet]

You need to get out more.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[C10H14N2]

Or, perhaps, the solution is to accept the fact that, yes, you may do (as a matter of proven fact) whatever you want with that hardware, including installing whatever-the-hell OS and applications you want. This, however, removes any and all expectation of functionality of the original configuration.

So, if you end up with a device that looks like the computer equivalent of a riced-out Honda Civic and performs like a Segway on AAAs with legos for wheels, though it now does lots of crazy shit no one else with similar bog-stock devices gives a shit about, don't make it a high-minded politco-social issue. The normies just think you're a dork -- and you are free and welcome to be a dork -- hell, some normies may even find you "adorkable" and might even date you.

You may actually end up with a more useful/enjoyable device -- for you -- and you are free to spend all your time lovingly caressing it and playing dress-up. Congratulations, you won, it does _precisely_ what _you_ want. It's just, well, very few other people actually give a shit. Again, do not make this a grand social issue. Some people just aren't that invested in their fucking phones.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Microlith]

I like that my posts are causing some mods such consternation. Maybe they bought a DROID X or DROID 2 and were annoyed they couldn't load CyanogenMod.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[nurb432]

Except for the other 99% of their customers, who will be quite happy with its features.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[CharlyFoxtrot]

So your opinion is that you must jailbreak it to make it useful, in fact you seem to want a different product entirely so quite why you would buy it is a mystery. There's a lot of people out there however who don't feel the need to jailbreak. You are entitled to your opinion but don't sell it as fact.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[mgblst]

If you have not seen attacks on Apple here, with every single story about Apple, then you can not read, or are too stupid to function properly.

Nothing wrong with that, the critics have some valid points against Apple. Still Apple have never done anything as bad as Microsoft.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[blackest_k]

Apparently Dell printers are badge engineered Lexmarks, hence the printer issues.
I'm sure you are aware of the issues with Lexmark so no need to rehash them yet again.

Macs use cups same as Linux, so I'd expect printer support to be pretty much the same.

The trouble with slashdot is after a while you have read 99% of the arguments on just about any issue several times before.

for what its worth buying hardware which requires jailbreaking is either fun or just shooting yourself in the foot.
I'm not sure which.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[gmhowell]

What's the open competitor to the aforementioned consoles? What can I drag out to play video games on when my friends visit without PCs in tow?

If the market is so full of opportunity, go make your own.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[illumin8]

The iOS device is not tuned like the PS3 or Wii, Apple is directly targeting iOS devices for general purpose mobile computing and home computing.

The AppleTV has never been sold as anything other than a set top box to plug into your TV. Where did you get "general purpose home computer" from? Certainly not Apple.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Rude Turnip]

You don't "jailbreak" an AppleTV to run XBMC. You simply install the software using a USB stick. It's not a widely documented capability, but that doesn't mean you're doing anything special or hacking anything.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Dhalka226]

Jailbreakers are just as bad. They assume free is better in all cases, no matter if that means completely obliterating the actual intended purpose of the item in question or making the continued use of it such a tiresome exercise in maintenance that it might as well be a brick.

Perhaps, but here's the difference. Jailbreakers don't assume anything for anybody but themselves. They jailbreak their devices and offer that ability to everybody else, but they don't force them to do it. If jailbreaking isn't worth it or makes it too tiresome an exercise in maintenance that it might as well be a brick, then people who believe that will simply not jailbreak their device.

Steve Jobs' assumptions affect every customer. His definition of better had better fit your definition of better or you either don't get his product or live with what you feel is sub-par. That's cool, but then he gets on TV and in front of audiences talking about how awesome his way is and how everybody who has been doing it differently is dumb. When people start having problems with his phones, he tells them they're holding it wrong, because obviously what he's doing is better and that means it can never be worse. The reason jailbreaking turns into a maintenance nightmare is because he will permit no manner of doing anything of which he does not approve, and spins it as being for your benefit. Is there truly some reason he can't allow installation of third-party codecs for AppleTV? It wouldn't change his design. It wouldn't change his interface. It wouldn't make his device poof into smoke. It wouldn't impose liability on him, since he's not the one installing them. But Steve says no, so you live without or you try to hack it and live with whatever nightmare that causes.

Now, I'm not saying Apple's approach is completely wrong. Practically speaking, you can't please everybody and at some point you have to lock down a list and say "THIS is our feature set." But the two egos are not the same. "Like what I say to like or go away" is not the same as "This is better, here it is if you want to have better too."

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[aztracker1]

Not sure on this, I and a few people I know have WRT54GL devices to run the Tomato firmware.... If I could have Tomato's UI on a newer device, I'd probably switch.. I've got a separate N access point connected for now.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[Rhaban]

hacking it might make the thing more usable

Tragic, of course, that people would buy something so crippled and locked down they must "jailbreak" it to make it more useful.

Certainly this is effort better spent improving solutions that are more open from the get-go?

Vote with your dollars, don't ever buy a device that needs to be hacked to become usable.

(but don't hesitate to hack an already usable device if you want to)

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[cyclomedia]

Steve Jobs' assumptions affect every customer. His definition of better had better fit your definition of better or you either don't get his product or live with what you feel is sub-par.

Emphasis mine. Why is it so hard for people to do the part I bolded? Is it because of his on-stage this-is-awesome speeches? I've never watched any personally.

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[tepples]

What stops you from making said console?

For one thing, patents on HDMI and the like. For another, can you recommend guides as to how to do this?

Re:Gluttons for abuse

[phoenixwade]

The initial methodology was obfuscation of the media directory, which was easily bypassed by even the most novice of experimental users.

You'll notice that the old media directory was set up not to hinder people's usage of the device, but to constrain file path lengths.

Oh, so the reason they made the directory hidden was related to file-path sizes? WOW! Thank you for clarifying that. I've been under the mistaken impression it was obfuscation for all these years. And no, I'm not taking either side of the argument for or against lock downs. I was simply pointing out that you were wrong, you were misinformed, and that this is not "new", it has been with us all along.

Want it.

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

I knew this thing was going to be a cool hacking toy.

it's an iPad in a box

[Anonymous Coward]

Same CPU as iPad, including the amount of RAM.

It adds ethernet, HDMI and optical audio out, it loses a lot like bluetooth, motion sensors and of course the display.

So yes, it runs ARM.

Re:it's an iPad in a box

[bberens]

Does it print? :-D

Re:it's an iPad in a box

[jo_ham]

It prints at 25, 29.97 or 24 fps to a large, electronic whiteboard-style thing. ;)

Honest question

[Pojut]

Does it bother anyone else that Apple products are so quickly hacked? I don't mean from a security standpoint, I mean because people feel the need to hack them so they can do what they want.

Doesn't that mean they should just buy something that isn't so limited in the first place? Or is this one of those "we buy a locked device because we want to hack it" sort of things...

Re:Honest question

[js3]

Hackers target the audience, and that means whatever is popular. Apple is popular so it gets hacked earlier. Bragging rights etc

Re:Honest question

[al0ha]

>> we buy a locked device because we want to hack

Pretty close, but more along the lines of we buy a locked device because it is a challenge

Re:Honest question

[slim]

Does it bother anyone else that Apple products are so quickly hacked? I don't mean from a security standpoint, I mean because people feel the need to hack them so they can do what they want.

Doesn't that mean they should just buy something that isn't so limited in the first place? Or is this one of those "we buy a locked device because we want to hack it" sort of things...

Two angles on this. I had a colleague a while ago who chipped Playstations, and had hundreds of pirated games on CDR. He never played any of them: he just got satisfaction from getting one over on The Man, I suppose.

The other angle is that sometimes -- maybe not in the case of Apple TV -- but sometimes, the closed platform is cheaper to buy than the equivalent open system. I use a chipped Xbox as a video player, because it would cost me much more (either money or time/effort) to buy/build something similar with TV out. Or it would have done at the time I set it up.

Re:Honest question

[Terrasque]

they can be cool, AND they can actually make it do something useful. Win-win ;)

Re:Honest question

[tepples]

Doesn't that mean they should just buy something that isn't so limited in the first place?

What set-top media player is not locked? Next to nobody has a home theater PC if other people's comments are to be believed.

Re:Honest question

[slim]

Pretty close, but more along the lines of we buy a locked device because it is a challenge

That explains the hackers who crack the system in the first place.

It doesn't explain the hordes who go "now it's been hacked, I'll buy one".

Re:Honest question

[vwjeff]

A small percentage of users will hack their device. Apple knows this and has procedures in place for denying support for modified devices. Ultimately this is free R&D for Apple. Let the hackers see what the device can do and include that capability in a future release.

Re:Honest question

[mini me]

Apache is popular, but IIS gets hacked earlier.

Re:Honest question

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it bother anyone else that Apple products are so quickly hacked? I don't mean from a security standpoint, I mean because people feel the need to hack them so they can do what they want.

Doesn't that mean they should just buy something that isn't so limited in the first place? Or is this one of those "we buy a locked device because we want to hack it" sort of things...

Frankly, the "security" standpoint is the only one that bothers me.

I suppose jailbreakers who buy Apple stuff fall into three categories

1. People who think that the jailbroken device meets their needs better than alternatives, even though those don't require jailbreaking
2. People who jailbreak because they enjoy a challenge, want to "stick it to the Man", or are just curious
3. People who didn't do their research, bought the product, and only afterward realized that the product didn't meet their needs without jailbreaking

On Slashdot, posters generally assume that everyone falls into category 3. I suspect that are a fairly small populations in reality.

I suspect a larger population feels that the product as delivered meets their needs just fine, and an even larger population just doesn't buy the product in the first place.

Re:Honest question

[StuartHankins]

Sort of like installing Tomato on Linksys routers? Oh, wait, we like that.

Re:Honest question

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Does it bother anyone else that Apple products are so quickly hacked? I don't mean from a security standpoint, I mean because people feel the need to hack them so they can do what they want.

Doesn't that mean they should just buy something that isn't so limited in the first place? Or is this one of those "we buy a locked device because we want to hack it" sort of things...

The AppleTV isn't "limited" to most people out there, only to geeks who poo-poo any devices that do anything less than their custom Linux HTPC. I've said this before: Apple doesn't implement features unless it can make them easy to use and understand and nicely designed. They don't start with a feature list and then make crappy implementations of them so they can add a bullet point to the list. They also look forward not backward and simplify where possible (eg. mandating use of h.264 instead of divx and hundreds of other formats.) If you find this approach philosophically abhorrent then use something else please and accept there are those of us that like it that way.

I don't think that's the reason people hack them anyway, they hack them because they can and for bragging rights.

Re:Honest question

[VGPowerlord]

Hackers target the audience, and that means whatever is popular. Apple is popular so it gets hacked earlier. Bragging rights etc

This logic falls down when you consider the PS3 is/was fairly popular and yet took 4 years to hack.

Re:Honest question

[PRMan]

Actually, no. Have you seen PS3 sales charts? Everybody I know that has one only bought it to watch Blu-Ray.

Re:Honest question

[kuzb]

Actually, it bothers me from both standpoints.

It bothers me that the device has to be hacked to do what people want, and it bothers me that they're insecure enough that they can be jailbroken and forced to run arbitrary code with as little as a webpage view (ala jailbreakme.com).

Because people want to use these devices to do whatever they want, enormous effort is spent on jailbreaking them. This means that people with potential malicious intent could start exploiting the holes to do very bad things.

Re:Honest question

[kuzb]

4. People who don't want to pay for any app. I think this is the biggest lure.

Re:Honest question

[DannyO152]

No, it doesn't bother me. Apple has been in two businesses in recent times. They make computers and they use their interface, operating system, and hardware experience in order to make specialized consumer devices that are adapted computers. Apple does not operate in a vacuum and Apple, like everyone else, prefers to sell things profitably which may lead to other profitable sales. As a result, license and contract terms and their own understanding of their business model mean some entertainment formats or some general computing functionality may be unavailable from the external interface or its stores. For people who are interested, as a challenge or because their entertainment is not in the "correct" format or for whom every computing device must be returned back to its essential nature, and who have the chops break the device so it behaves as the owner sees fit.

I see the merits of the device freedom people's case. Why last night I was using a computer book as a cockroach termination device. On the other hand, I don't buy toaster ovens with the thought that I should be able to convert them into blow torches. Were I McGyver in trouble, my perspective, of course, would be different. In Apple's defense, I can also see that they would consider it a ghastly error to find themselves seated in a courtroom one day, being asked "You knew that by doing x, y, and z, one could make ${device} damage my client, and you did nothing about it?" So when devices are jailbroken, and I believe it is uniformly through exploitation of bugs which could be security problems, Apple has to do discourage it and fix that flaw at their next chance.

Me. I say an AppleTV is for watching tv and I don't have a tv. I could buy one and turn it into something else. Or I could just skip the middle man and the fuss and just buy the something else.

Re:Honest question

[Microlith]

Linksys routers don't fight you. Get back to me when Apple allows you to install software not from the App Store on your device without forcing you to Jailbreak.

Re:Honest question

[Yvan256]

It bothers me that the device has to be hacked to do what hackers want

FTFY. Seriously, people who read Slashdot are not regular people. We usually expect more, though some of us can still buy things understanding their limitations. I didn't buy a Mac mini thinking I could run Starcraft II on Ultra video settings and I didn't buy a Wii thinking I could play Halo Reach.

Re:Honest question

[Microlith]

On the other hand, I don't buy toaster ovens with the thought that I should be able to convert them into blow torches.

No, but there's no EULA or locks on the device that prevent you from doing so. It's impractical, yes, but nothing is stopping you. Well, except maybe your better judgement.

In Apple's defense, I can also see that they would consider it a ghastly error to find themselves seated in a courtroom one day, being asked "You knew that by doing x, y, and z, one could make ${device} damage my client, and you did nothing about it?"

That's ridiculous, since such an argument could be made against any bit of technology created in the last thousand years.

So when devices are jailbroken, and I believe it is uniformly through exploitation of bugs which could be security problems, Apple has to do discourage it and fix that flaw at their next chance.

They don't do it to protect themselves from lawsuits or other such nonsense, I assure you.

Re:Honest question

[tepples]

I didn't buy a Mac mini thinking I could run Starcraft II on Ultra video settings and I didn't buy a Wii thinking I could play Halo Reach.

What set-top device should I buy thinking I can develop and distribute my own video games for it?

Re:Honest question

[Hellasboy]

They're hacked quickly because of 2 reasons. They're really popular (ego) and have capabilities suppressed on purpose (do more with them). It doesn't bother me that they're so quickly hacked - it's more of an annoyance to the people who fall into 1 of those 2 reasons and doesn't really effect those who don't.
So yeah, I agree with you.

But look at it on the flipside. SE's X10 is looking damn near impossible to hack and the need is there. To paraphrase your question; Does it bother anyone else that SE's X10 is so hard to crack? That bothers me more than Apple making it easy to hack.

Re:Honest question

[fyngyrz]

I use a Mac Mini in my home theater.

Apple TV is as close to having a direct channel from your bank account to Apple as anything I've seen yet. But a full on computer lets you watch all manner of free stuff. I don't see the appeal of Apple TV at all.

Re:Honest question

[Zenaku]

In Apple's defense, I can also see that they would consider it a ghastly error to find themselves seated in a courtroom one day, being asked "You knew that by doing x, y, and z, one could make ${device} damage my client, and you did nothing about it?"

That's ridiculous, since such an argument could be made against any bit of technology created in the last thousand years.

It's not ridiculous, since such an argument has been made -- successfully -- against many bits of technology created in the last thousand years. Why do you think so many products come with a sticker, slip of paper in the package, or whole chapter in the instruction manual dedicated to moronic safety warnings about how you shouldn't try to stick the product up your ass, or smash it with a sledgehammer to slurp up the delicious chemicals inside it?

Re:Honest question

[EnglishTim]

Worldwide sales:

PS3 ~ 38 million units
Xbox 360 ~ 41 million units
iPhone ~ 51 million units
Wii ~ 71 million units

The iPhone only has a third more sales than the PS3.

Re:Honest question

[TrancePhreak]

eg. mandating use of h.264 instead of divx and hundreds of other formats

Also known as forcing new purchases, or taking a hit to quality from conversion.

Apple doesn't implement features unless it can make them easy to use and understand and nicely designed.

I don't like how moving files in OSX via UI requires two finder views open. Or how you can't put folders on top by sorting. Or blah blah, a million things. They don't think these things through, they do them the way Steve wants.

Re:Honest question

[ebuck]

Hack a Dell and nobody cares. Dell gets less than 1% of the news articles, I'll bet.

Hack an Apple, and you're already feeding into the just under 20% of the daily news articles. If you want to make a name for yourself, Apple is the way to go. If you do it for fun, odds are you won't be heard until you're working on an Apple product.

Re:Honest question

[tepples]

I use a Mac Mini in my home theater

For the price of a Mac mini for one TV, I could buy appliances for six TVs.

a full on computer lets you watch all manner of free stuff.

Consumers in the United States tend not to assess the total cost of ownership; instead, they get sticker shock at the $599 price tag of a Mac mini compared to the appliances in the next aisle. Best Buy stores don't even carry Mac mini. Besides, consumers ask "what free stuff?" If you want to watch notable feature films made since 1923, it's still $9/mo for Netflix no matter whether you use it with a Mac mini or with an appliance.

Re:Honest question

[h4rr4r]

What is this TV out you speak of? Here in 2010 we plug into the TV via VGA or DVI or HDMI. Just about every computer has one of those outputs.

Re:Honest question

[Theoboley]

Why break the safe when the door isn't locked?

Homebrew

Re:Honest question

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Also known as forcing new purchases, or taking a hit to quality from conversion.

That's bull. H.264 is the standard these days, except for pirate content or patent encumbered formats like MS' video formats. I can rip my DVD's into H264 quite handily without noticeable loss of quality.

I don't like how moving files in OSX via UI requires two finder views open. Or how you can't put folders on top by sorting. Or blah blah, a million things. They don't think these things through, they do them the way Steve wants.

All platforms have issues, it just happens that OSX is for me the best choice available. It's not perfect, just the best fit. You can strive for perfection but if you can't accept anything less than perfection you will lead a very unhappy life. And some of these things are subjective, like the man said: "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time."

I recommend PathFinder for those Finder annoyances you mentioned BTW.

Re:Honest question

[mlts]

I'd say they are pretty tough to hack. The iPhone 4 took almost 2 months to JB, even with the Dev Team having betas of the OS. Nobody else came close with a method to do this. 4.1 is still secure and most likely it won't be jailbroken until 4.2 comes out at the earliest.

So, Apple is getting their devices pretty well locked down as time goes on.

Re:Honest question

[mlts]

Big difference. Linksys does not care what you install on their routers. In fact, they sell some with larger flash space just for OSS based firmware distributions.

Apple does care, and takes active steps to patch JBs.

Re:Honest question

[painandgreed]

Does it bother anyone else that Apple products are so quickly hacked?

Not especially as it means that Apple really isn't worried that much about people hacking them. I'm sure they could make it much harder to hack if they really wanted to.

Re:Honest question

[Microlith]

Because people are unbelievably stupid. But note that in the vast majority of cases the result is a disclaimer, not the product being barred from sale or ridiculously crippled.

Re:Honest question

[jedidiah]

> 4. People who don't want to pay for any app. I think this is the biggest lure.

The "Apple detractors are all pirates" angle had to come in here sooner or later.

Re:Honest question

[jedidiah]

> The AppleTV isn't "limited" to most people out there

Oh? Is that why AppleTV is still merely a hobby?

There is nothing inherently difficult in being able to play available content without a lot of fuzting or bullshit.

The idea that Apple can't do what VLC has no trouble doing is of course completely absurd.

In truth it's Apple's approach that is fundementally user hostile. It's a usability failure regardless of how many excuses you want to make up. You either have to simply do without or deal with a huge bother.

It's geeks that can manage dealing with futzing with mencoder, ffmpeg or handbrake. "Apple's people" are just left out in the cold.

Re:Honest question

[MBGMorden]

If you look at it that way, then sure.

Looked at another way: the PS3 is the least popular console. The iPhone is the most popular smartphone.

Re:Honest question

[Yvan256]

UzeBox?

Re:Honest question

[horigath]

I don't like how moving files in OSX via UI requires two finder views open.

Look up spring-loaded folders or use the tiered folder view (I don't remember what it's called). They did, in fact, think this one through at least somewhat.

Re:Honest question

[adisakp]

The AppleTV isn't "limited" to most people out there, only to geeks who poo-poo any devices that do anything less than their custom Linux HTPC.

720p video seems like a limit to me considering the big "Full HD" 1080p push. I know that Boxee Box is going to use 1080p FullHD as a distinguishing factor between the two pre-boxed solutions.

Re:Honest question

[Kielistic]

That's not true either I'm afraid.

Re:Honest question

[tjhart85]

But how many of those PS3s are in clusters right now and not being used as a gaming/BR device?

A lot of universities picked up hundreds of PS3s and never used them for their intended purposes.

Not saying that a sale isn't a sale, but the GPs point was that he doesn't know many people with PS3s and someone threw up some statistics that are pretty much worthless in terms of how many PEOPLE/FAMILIES actually own this specific device.

Re:Honest question

[MBGMorden]

Please post your information to the contrary.

Re:Honest question

[Kielistic]

Haha, please post your information confirming your assertion. I imagine you will find that iphone has no where near the most marketshare.

Re:Honest question

[CharlyFoxtrot]

720p video seems like a limit to me considering the big "Full HD" 1080p push. I know that Boxee Box is going to use 1080p FullHD as a distinguishing factor between the two pre-boxed solutions.

Boxee Box: $199, AppleTV: $99.

I may be mistaken but I think not many people (aside from geeks who are building their own HTPCs anyway) have much 1080p HD content on their PC in a format ready to be streamed. Can you even buy 1080p content officially (without ripping BD's which is itself a grey area) ? Apple itself certainly doesn't sell 1080p content through iTunes which makes it an obvious design choice.

I said it's not fair to characterize the AppleTV as "limited", that doesn't mean there aren't design choices made in function of both cost and utility the the likely customer.

Re:Honest question

[CharlyFoxtrot]

> The AppleTV isn't "limited" to most people out there

Oh? Is that why AppleTV is still merely a hobby?

There is nothing inherently difficult in being able to play available content without a lot of fuzting or bullshit.

The idea that Apple can't do what VLC has no trouble doing is of course completely absurd.

In truth it's Apple's approach that is fundementally user hostile. It's a usability failure regardless of how many excuses you want to make up. You either have to simply do without or deal with a huge bother.

It's geeks that can manage dealing with futzing with mencoder, ffmpeg or handbrake. "Apple's people" are just left out in the cold.

AppleTV is a hobby because the product category it is in hasn't broken through to the mainstream yet, it is still in a niche.

Apple isn't VLC. Apple has to worry about patents, license fees and getting sued. Even VLC doesn't play everything but a free application doesn't have to worry as much as a major corporation about the possible black eye from spotty support for a given format.

You can manage however you like. Please afford people like me the same courtesy.

Re:Honest question

[fyngyrz]

For the price of a Mac mini for one TV, I could buy appliances for six TVs.

Yeah, that'd be great, then you could have six opportunities to pay for content. While having a fraction of the capabilities. In six different places. Oy.

Consumers in the United States tend not to assess the total cost of ownership

Yes, I know. Has a little something to do with their inability to detect what a raging ripoff credit cards, mortgages, and lottery tickets are; not to mention their apparent inability to even balance a checkbook.

Math: learn it, or be burned by it.

Re:Honest question

[adisakp]

Well, even scaling 480p content (DVD quality) to 720p with your box and then having your TV scale it to 1080p isn't going to look as good as a box that can scale 480p directly to 1080p and the TV doing no scaling. But there is *A LOT* of 1080p content out there if you know where to look... cough... cough... just none that you can buy from Apple.

FWIW, various web and video sites are beginning to offer 1080p -- supposedly 1080p is in the works for YouTube for example. I'm sure eventually even Apple will offer 1080p content the same way they now offer higher quality audio files and if you want a box that's more future proof, it's better if it handles this format.

Re:Honest question

[lakeland]

That's bull. H.264 is the standard these days, except for pirate content or patent encumbered formats like MS' video formats. I can rip my DVD's into H264 quite handily without noticeable loss of quality.

I think you missed Trance's point. Say 5 years ago you had gone through your DVD library and carefully ripped everything to DivX. Perhaps you lived in a country where it's legal to rip DVDs you got out from the video store... Regardless, you can easily have built up a decent collection of DivX encoded movies. You can say H.264 is the standard these days, and you'd be right, but I only changed my default when Handbrake changed its default and I imagine I'm pretty typical. I don't keep up with the changes of video codecs well enough to know when the default is not the best choice.

Converting this video library to H.264 would cost quality - You'd have to go back to the source DVDs to get a decent rip. It would be like if iTunes decided tomorrow to drop support for MP3 because AAC is the standard now. I personally am perfectly happy with AAC but I've thrown out my old CDs to save space years ago after ripping them to high quality MP3. There's a big difference between encouraging a modern format and preventing the use of legacy formats.

All platforms have issues,

Yes they do. But on other platforms it is possible to change their behaviour to match how you like to work. Apple has very good default behaviour but it has extremely limited support for changing that behaviour. For instance, if I use my iPhone all the time as a camera and I really want to use the volume buttons to zoom then I'm out of luck. Apple mandates what it considers best practice and as a user I am frequently unable to override this even on my computer.

Re:Honest question

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

How about a Mac Mini running Windows 7 sitting on a TV set? ;)
Not only that, people can run your game on the average desktop computer too! :)

Re:Honest question

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

Ahem... keep in mind, the jailbreakme.com PDF exploit stems from FreeType.

http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/275247

Blaming Apple for an exploit in FOSS code they probably didn't write, is a little unfair, yeah?

Afterall, Red Hat was kind enough to at least credit Apple with the fix in their software update:
https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/RHSA-2010-0607.html

Re:Honest question

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

Given that the assertion was "the iPhone is the most popular smartphone", it's reasonably easy to believe.

One more time... "most popular smartphone."
Smartphone.
Not smartphones. Not plural.
Smartphone. Singular.
One phone.

Android is NOT a smartphone.
Motorola Droid X is a smartphone.
HTC Evo is a smartphone.
Blackberry Pearl is a smartphone.
iPhone 4 is a smartphone.
Palm Pre Plus is a smartphone.

http://comscore.com/Press_Events/Press_Releases/2010/9/comScore_Reports_July_2010_U.S._Mobile_Subscriber_Market_Share
Only two models of the iPhone are available at a time (currently 3GS and 4), and that Blackberry has 6 models. Unless one model of Blackberry accounts for over half the sales, it's highly likely that any particular Blackberry is the "most popular smartphone." And I'm thinking that between the iPhone 3GS and the iPhone 4, the iPhone 3GS isn't the most popular one selling now either. This leaves the iPhone 4 as the most probable "most popular smartphone."

Re:Honest question

[Torvaun]

Most people don't know that things could be better, so it's not a problem? That reminds me of how most people don't know what a rootkit is, so it shouldn't be a problem if Sony puts them on CDs.

Re:Honest question

[Kielistic]

Funny how there was no gripe about the ~51 million iphone sales in comparison to the consoles above. It was clear there and above that this conversation was concerning platforms and install base.

"Selling the most right now" wasn't really what was under discussion. Not to mention your proof boils down to "I think that ..."

Does it not bother you that the parameters have had to be redefined this much so that the iphone can still be defined as "the best"? First it was 51 million then it was most popular compared to competition. Then when that wasn't quite true either it was "Not smartphones. Not plural. Smartphone. Singular." so we're left with ~2.5million iphone fours according to you. I'm curious what you would say if it turned out a Curve model has outsold the iphone 4. Fall back to the 3GS?

Re:Honest question

[Colonel Korn]

Does it bother anyone else that Apple products are so quickly hacked? I don't mean from a security standpoint, I mean because people feel the need to hack them so they can do what they want.

Doesn't that mean they should just buy something that isn't so limited in the first place? Or is this one of those "we buy a locked device because we want to hack it" sort of things...

The AppleTV isn't "limited" to most people out there, only to geeks who poo-poo any devices that do anything less than their custom Linux HTPC. I've said this before: Apple doesn't implement features unless it can make them easy to use and understand and nicely designed. They don't start with a feature list and then make crappy implementations of them so they can add a bullet point to the list. They also look forward not backward and simplify where possible (eg. mandating use of h.264 instead of divx and hundreds of other formats.) If you find this approach philosophically abhorrent then use something else please and accept there are those of us that like it that way.

I don't think that's the reason people hack them anyway, they hack them because they can and for bragging rights.

The question that matters to my not tech savvy but not tech illiterate parents is, "can it play the movies I downloaded?" The answer is "no" or the AppleTV and "yes" for most of its competitors. That ends the consideration of the AppleTV.

Re:Honest question

[shutdown -p now]

Apache is popular, but IIS gets hacked earlier.

You didn't run the numbers on that before posting, did you?

Re:Honest question

[tepples]

But how easily do VGA, DVI, and HDMI reach from the room with the tower to the room with the TV?

Re:Honest question

[tepples]

So as I understand it, the customer would put his name on a waiting list for a $100 console, buy it online, snap it together, load a game, and play. But are customers willing to do that for a game with Atari 7800/NES-class graphics?

Re:Honest question

[tepples]

How about a Mac Mini running Windows 7 sitting on a TV set? ;)

How many of those are deployed?

Not only that, people can run your game on the average desktop computer too! :)

Some genres of game don't work well on a 19" monitor because two to four players can't fit around one.

Re:Honest question

[mini me]

I am not sure I follow. Theoretical vulnerabilities do not equal real world exploits. Apache has never seen attacks on the scale that IIS has.

Re:Honest question

[shutdown -p now]

You don't usually see attacks on IIS as such - you see attacks on websites running IIS, but higher above the stack (i.e. on an ASP.NET app, for example). Which means that you also have to look higher to meaningfully compare popularity, as well.

Re:Honest question

[mini me]

As you noted in your earlier link, IIS7 has a much better security track record, but we only have to look back a few years when IIS itself (not an app running at a higher level) had a new attack upon it seemingly every week. Apache has never had the same kind of problems.

Re:Honest question

[TrancePhreak]

That doesn't really help. I often have to move files from a series of folders because of the other OSX annoyance, copying/moving a folder with the same name completely replaces the other.

Re:Honest question

[shutdown -p now]

If you look at my linked post, it speaks about both IIS7 and IIS6 (and compares them to contemporary Apache versions, 2.0.x and 2.2.x specifically). The one that was infamous for being awfully insecure is IIS5. Probably before that, too, but I don't recall seeing any servers running IIS version lower than 5 in the wild, ever (I guess it was just too awful back then).

Re:Honest question

[mini me]

The point remains that IIS has had more widespread attacks than Apache, despite Apache being a more popular web server.

Re:Honest question

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

EnglishTim was talking about installed base.

MBGMorden could be either marketshare or installed base.

When you said "I imagine you will find that iphone has no where near the most marketshare.", it's clear you're talking about marketshare since you refer directly to marketshare.

So I simply thought, "In terms of marketshare, is the iphone the most popular smartphone or not? let's google, 'smartphone marketshare'" and brought up that URL. Why that URL? First link Google gave me.

Who knows if their research is correct or not, but it seems to state in the chart that, in terms of marketshare, companywise, RIM is 1st, Apple is 2nd, and so on.

And while I still have no exact numbers of each particular smartphone model sale, it's looking to be a pretty likely case that MBGMorden's statement is valid. If the reality is that the Curve is outselling the iPhone 4, then MBGMorden's statement is invalid. Simple logic, right?
All you have to do is simply find some numbers which prove/disprove that.

Alternatively, you could simply concede MBGMorden's statement, and then declare another one.
How about:
"While the iPhone is currently the most popular smartphone, the Android platform is gaining marketshare compared to the iOS platform."
or
"Despite the popularity of the iPhone, RIM still outsells Apple in terms of number of phones."

The point I'm trying to get across is not which phone is most popular or to be cheerleading for some platform. The point I'm trying to get across is that in order to have a debate, you're either going to have to make a point with some data, counter a point with some data, or concede a point and make a new one.

To answer you directly:
1) I have no gripes about the ~51 million phones, and whatever number of consoles because, frankly, I don't care. I don't know what the numbers are, and they seemed believable. The moment I took issue with the discussion was when I saw you and MBGMorden both ask each other to prove their points without posting any supporting data yourself. The data could have easily pointed the other way, and I'd be fine with that. But, as an aside, starting your request with "Haha," sounds like a dick move to me.
2) Given that your statement was "I imagine you will find that iphone has no where near the most marketshare." I do believe our conversation is about "selling the most right now." If it isn't, then why talk about marketshare?
3) Yes, my "proof" isn't a proof. It's a probabilistic conclusion based off a half-assed google search that says, "to me, it's most likely that MBGMorden is correct. So if you don't think so, show me some more data." It's not going to kill me to say I'm wrong if I'm wrong.
4) It doesn't bother me because as far as I know, I'm trying to follow the definitions I was given, and be clear about what I see I was given.
I got these two statements to work with:
"The iPhone is the most popular smartphone."
"I imagine you will find that iphone has no where near the most marketshare."

If you have data stating that the Curve has outsold the iPhone 4, or the Bold has outsold the iPhone 4, or heck even N900 has outsold the iPhone 4, then what I would say "okay, but over what period?"
I can believe that the Curve has outsold the iPhone 4 since it's been out quite a while longer, right?
But I'm less likely to believe that the Curve is outselling the iPhone 4.

If you have data stating clearly that the Curve is outselling the iPhone 4, then what I would say is "The Curve is the most popular smartphone."

And I'm not sure I understand where you got this "~2.5 million iPhone 4s" from.

Re:Honest question

[h4rr4r]

You put the tower in the same cabinet as the ps3 etc.Or you go to monoprice and buy a 50' cable.

Seems very easy to me.

Re:Honest question

[CharlyFoxtrot]

It's a fair point, there's a lot of divx files out there but there's other options available for people who need support for legacy formats (which DivX has become IMHO.) If Apple were to take DivX on board they would be stuck with it for who knows how long and across their different devices too (iPhone, iPad, ...) I can see why they rather standardize on a single format with support for it integrated into the hardware. In fact this decision was made some time ago when these devices were first introduced with h.264 support only, just like when Apple created the iMac without a floppy drive. Every new beginning gives a chance to leave some of the old clutter behind.

Re:Honest question

[tgibbs]

Barring the door is a lot more important to Sony than to Apple, because Sony makes money off of games, not hardware, and a hacked PS3 can be used to play pirated games. Before people hacked the PS3, it was actually more open than the appleTV--you could even install another operating system on it. The only real reason to hack it was to pirate games, and the side effect of the PS3 hack was to push Sony into locking down the system more tightly (impairing its legitimate use by scientists for computing purposes).

On the other hand, what can you do with a hacked appleTV? You are still going to have a hard time pirating movies, because they are streamed, not stored. So a hacked appleTV is basically a toy for hackers, and Apple still makes money selling the hardware. So Apple just needs to put a chain on the door to make it inconvenient enough that the average consumer is not going to bother to jailbreak his appleTV.

Re:Honest question

[VGPowerlord]

the side effect of the PS3 hack was to push Sony into locking down the system more tightly (impairing its legitimate use by scientists for computing purposes).

Since the newer slim PS3 didn't support OtherOS when Sony removed OtherOS from the older PS models, this wouldn't affect scientists at all.

Still, I wouldn't be surprised if the PS3 Slim didn't support OtherOS simply on IBM's request, in order to force scientific computing to actually pay for an IBM Cell computer system if they wanted one for research.

Re:Honest question

[tgibbs]

I can understand Sony dropping this feature from newer, budget-priced models, as they did the capability to emulate older Playstation models, as it was a niche use of the hardware. But older PS3's remained widely available for use by scientists (I know somebody who is doing this). But now, any of them that get their firmware updated (which is required for full game functionality) can not be used for OtherOS.

Considering that Sony locked out OtherOS from older models as part of a security update issued after the first PS3 "jailbreak," I think there is little doubt that this was an antipiracy security measure that Sony was driven to by people hacking PS3 security.

So what?

[daveschroeder]

It's only "already jailbroken" because the same iOS 4.1 issue used with the iOS 4.1 jailbreak that has already been developed works on this device, which is also running iOS 4.1.

Re:So what?

[Abcd1234]

It's only "already jailbroken" because the same iOS 4.1 issue used with the iOS 4.1 jailbreak that has already been developed works on this device, which is also running iOS 4.1.

Not quite. The jailbreak currently being worked on is actually based on a bootloader hole. So this thing is already jailbroken presumably because it uses the same firmware as the iPhone, iPad, and Touch.

Might be good for games

[tepples]

I knew this thing was going to be a cool hacking toy.
--
Have you ever tried simply turning off the TV, sitting down with your children and hitting them?

To hit your kids nowadays, you need to turn on the TV and put a fighting game into your console. Hacking gets the emulator to run so that you can play the fighting game.

Re:Might be good for games

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

There are MANY good reasons why I have no children.

photo screen saver

[Kristopeit, Mike Da.]

i have it set up with the photo screen saver and when local sources are offline it displays a black screen with small white text in the middle explaining the source is not available.

PCs since 1987 have HDTV out

[tepples]

I use a chipped Xbox as a video player, because it would cost me much more (either money or time/effort) to buy/build something similar with TV out.

That might have been more convincing before 2007, or for lower-income families that replace broken TVs with thrift-store specials. But since 2007, virtually all new TVs that I've seen in Walmart* and Best Buy stores have had PC inputs, both VGA (for a PC's VGA out) and HDMI (for a PC's DVI-D out). Your complaint might be that apart from Acer's Aspire Revo and Apple's Mac mini, small-form-factor PCs aren't often sold in big-box PC stores or local PC stores.

Re:PCs since 1987 have HDTV out

[slim]

My reasonably new Toshiba TV has a VGA in, alright -- but I can't persuade my Dell laptop to give it a signal that'll fill the screen with no overscan and no aspect ratio distortion.

So the component video from the Xbox is far preferable.

Yeah if I put Linux on I could mess about with X modelines, but life's too short, and the Xbox just works.

Yeah, a new PC would have HDMI, but it wouldn't be cheaper than a Xbox, would it? (Talking an Xbox here, not a 360)

Re:PCs since 1987 have HDTV out

[jedidiah]

Shop in a less lame store. While Best Buy only sells one nettop and then tries to hide it, Fry's has a much better selection (of everything).

Re:PCs since 1987 have HDTV out

[MBGMorden]

How often are you breaking your TV's? I know a TON of people running TV's that are 10+ years old. They still work just fine.

Also consider that used Xbox's (the original one, which I use for a video player) cost what? $50? The new Apple TV costs $100. You're going to be hard pressed to build a whole computer - regardless of if it needs NTSC output - for less than that. When you do you're still going to have to put up with longer boot times and higher power usage. Hacking something already meant to act as a settop unit often just works better than trying to shoehorn a full computer into that role.

Re:Is it just me...

[Nadaka]

Youu don say?

No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

[Anonymous Coward]

AppleTV....

No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

Re:No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

[Yvan256]

Actually, the new AppleTV does have wireless just like the old one.

Apple "security"

[Anonymous Coward]

The whole reason Apple locks down their products is because they are security doofuses that know they are incapable of protecting their delicate OS in an open environment. The fact that they are so quickly and easily jail-broken is proof of their incompetence at security. Just look at the results of every Pwn2Own contest...Apple products are always the first to fall.

Re:Apple "security"

[Jabrwock]

The whole reason Apple locks down their products is because they are security doofuses that know they are incapable of protecting their delicate OS in an open environment.

Or they put minimal effort into the "security" because they know it's "good enough" to keep the layman locked down, and they don't worry too much about the 1% of us who hack their stuff, because they know they can't really stop us anyway and it's not worth the effort.

Common sense ain't so common anymore

[Xyde]

like how will it handle the photo screen saver if your local machines are offline

Sigh, how do people this stupid even function? Yes that's right, the Apple TV has no storage whatsoever just because they removed the hard drive. Flash memory doesn't exist, certainly it's never been used before in an iOS device. I've seen similar bleatings all over the internet "BUT NETWORKS AREN'T FAST ENOUGH TO STREAM VIDEO SMOOTHLY WITHOUT A BUFFER, OMG APPLETV FAIL". Kill me now.

Re:Common sense ain't so common anymore

[dzfoo]

Woosh!

Not that you are incorrect, but... way to miss the point.

        -dZ.

Bingo!

[Kludge]

Why would I want to hack on a platform specifically designed not to be hacked?

There are plenty of hackable platforms out there for TV watching, Popcorn Hour, Captiveworks 4000HD, etc.

Re:Bingo!

[mcgrew]

Why would I want to hack on a platform specifically designed not to be hacked?

Because it's specifically designed not to be hacked. Duh. "Hacking" a device that's designed to be "hacked" isn't hacking. Adding a second hard drive or a new video card to your PC isn't hacking. Putting together a HeathKit isn't hacking. Installing Linux on a Windows box isn't hacking.

Turning a $10 transistor radio into a guitar fuzzbox is hacking. Using a Lunar lander for a return trip to earth, or putting a square peg in a round hole to keep people alive in it on the way, now THAT'S hacking at its finest.

How much local storage?

[dwightk]

How much space is there for installing apps?

Re:How much local storage?

[rezonat0r]

Hopefully just enough to run Plex.

Re:How much local storage?

[horigath]

The box has at least a few gigabytes for caching content from iTunes and the network, not to mention running the OS. Although Apple doesn't say how much flash memory is in there, people on the internet seem to think it's 16 GB.

Re:How much local storage?

[MistrBlank]

Actually most of the places on the Internet I go to seem to think it's probably closer to 4 or 8GB, with 8GB stretching the limit. The OS needs 1GB and the box doesn't cache much more than the iDevices do which is most definitely not plural GB. I would say 4 is reasonable and really enough to do many "Apps".

Expect to see next year's model to include some flash storage again once the App store is fully supported for the OS, right now I think it's more of an issue of securing the APIs so that you don't have people trying to access touch devices and input for a device that doesn't have it as well as making the Xcode tools work with it.

Re:How much local storage?

[horigath]

iFixIt confirmed 8GB today.

Woah,

[Iburnaga]

Aren't there better, cheaper, less locked down options out there for home theaters?

Re:Woah,

[NekSnappa]

Yes there are. Feel free to buy one.

Re:Woah,

[jo_ham]

Not sure about cheaper, unless you're buying used. Many of the boxes out there are $150+, but you do get a little more (like a DVD drive in some) but they are physically bigger units.

I still think a Mac Mini makes a better HTPC box for XBMC, but there's something to be said for the sheer tiny size of the new AppleTV that makes it attractive.

Re:Woah,

[Overzeetop]

Yes, their either expensive and configurable (full PC), or are cheap and have an interface which non-geeks can't just use. It's why I like apple and tivo - it requires no set up or maintenance by me, the rest of the family can figure it out without my help, and if something goes wrong, it's clearly not my fault. Apple TV will probably by worth every fucking penny Steve asks for it.

Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[adisakp]

If you really want full control and open source, why not just get a cheap NetTop ? I just got a barebones dual core Atom 330 (looks like 4 threads) with NVidia ION GPU for $159 at NewEgg. It have DVI out, HDMI out, SATA, expandable memory, USB2.0, 802.11n (miniPCIe), etc. Fully configurable and very compact. If you get an AppleTV, you aren't going to get storage or tune / record capability (which you can do with a cheap USB tuner on a nettop).

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[JackDW]

How is its performance with Flash videos?

Most of the on-demand video services use it, and for Flash, CPU power is very important.

Flash does colour space conversion in software due to a short-sighted legacy design decision, which is apparently irreversible. Therefore, a machine that can easily cope with hardware accelerated HD video will struggle with even SD video in Flash. You don't realise how useful hardware-accelerated colour space conversion is until you are forced to use the only modern video player that can't use it.

Flash performance is crucial question for any HTPC. If the machine can cope with Flash properly, it can cope with anything. But if it can't cope with Flash, then you have no access to a lot of on-demand video content, which sucks.

Apple is probably the only manufacturer with enough clout to force the on-demand video services to do it some other way - they'll submit special App Store applications just for AppleTV users - but that doesn't help anyone outside of the Apple ecosystem.

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[iroll]

More importantly, how does it do with Silverlight? Because I'm much more likely to watch a streaming movie on Netflix than I am on YouTube =p

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

With an NVIDIA ION system you can absolutely do SD flash video. HD flash video is also possible but you might see some dropped frames depending on the bitrate.

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

The simple answer is noise. Many of the nettops (such as the Foxconn Netbox, which I suspect is what you bought on Newegg) are annoyingly loud.

What we need is a nettop using AMD's Ontario APU.

An Atom D525 is 13W (and the Atom 330 is actually worse despite being only 8W because you also need a multi-watt chipset). For that you get a slow (by modern standards) in-order CPU and absolutely terrible graphics (that don't support HDMI or hardware video decoding).

The Ontario APU is supposed to be 9W, including the memory controller and a Radeon 5400 class GPU. That means that you don't need an external GPU (as you do in NG-ION). It also has a dramatically faster out-of-order CPU.

Once you get down to that level, passive cooling starts to become an option.

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[adisakp]

How is its performance with Flash videos?

Most of the on-demand video services use it, and for Flash, CPU power is very important.

There is GPU hardware acceleration for the NVidia ION in the latest 10.1 version of Flash. You get flawless low-CPU-usage decodes of 1080p Flash video. Also, I recently saw a video of a dual core Atom with NVidia ION that was decoding two simultaneous 1080p streams and only using about 60% CPU. The Apple TV is limited to a single 720P stream for output. The little box I bought has a couple orders of magnitude more CPU and GPU / Video Decode Power than the Apple TV.

The ION is fast enough for all 3D casual gaming and even gets some decent frame rates on hard-core games if you don't have quality set on ultra-high and you are running at 720P rather than 1080P resolution. It's a decent 3D chip that kicks the crap out of all the other "integrated" GPU's out there right now.

Plus I put in a cheap 80 GB Intel SSD I picked up at NewEgg for $125 so it has lots of storage and very fast boot times (under 15 seconds including BIOS POST) -- although it would work fine with any cheap notebook drive as well.

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[adisakp]

The simple answer is noise. Many of the nettops (such as the Foxconn Netbox, which I suspect is what you bought on Newegg) are annoyingly loud.

There is a single very small exhaust fan in my nettop. I think some earlier nettops had both a loud CPU and a loud GPU/Chipset fan but this is not the case for my box. I can't hear it run if I am more than 2-3 feet away from the box. I use an SSD so the system runs quite cool.

FWIW, there are videos on the net where the Intel guys run the Atom without a heatsink at all so I'm pretty sure you can get away with passive cooling on that. I think the fan is actually on the NVidia ION chipset.

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[adisakp]

What about people who want 1080p decode capability ? Apple TV hardware can only handle 720p.

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[antdude]

Why not just use your own computer with TV tuner(s), big HDDs, etc.? That is what I do with mine.

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[JackDW]

I'd hope that Silverlight would do video properly, having been designed after it became clear that Flash was mostly being used as a video player. But I don't know for certain. Microsoft have their own share of bad design decisions.

Sadly, my local "Netflix" (Lovefilm) is still using Flash, as are the TV stations, and it has taken a HTPC upgrade to get reasonable performance. (The machine was fine for all other types of video content.)

I don't know why Flash can't do colourspace conversion in the other direction for apps intended as video players, i.e. convert static RGB format graphics, fonts and playback buttons into YUV space and then overlay them onto YUV video. This would allow Flash to make use of hardware acceleration for video. Software conversion would be a "one-time" operation instead of an "every frame" operation and Flash video playback would be almost as good as MPlayer/VLC/etc. But apparently that simple idea just can't be done. Meh.

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[Late Adopter]

There is literally no device out there that will run XBMC and Netflix at the same time. The Boxee Box is the closest, but has a steep price tag. I would love to build my own STB a la your suggestion but Microsoft won't allow their DRM stack on Moonlight, and Netflix is a firm requirement for this project.

A hacked AppleTV at $100 is the first STB that might actually fulfill my requirements.

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[JackDW]

That's very interesting. So another solution for the problems I've had with Flash is to get one of the GPUs listed on that page. Which would then be able to do hardware accelerated colourspace conversion -- in the way that Flash requires.

(This also explains why Adobe haven't solved the problem "properly", i.e. for all graphics cards, including the fairly old one that I'm currently using.)

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[adisakp]

If you are buying a nettop that you want to use for 3D gaming as well, the only current solution is something with ION. I specifically purchased an ION-based nettop because the ones with Intel GPU's can not handle video decodes well even for non-flash formats. The Intel graphics completely suck right now and their isn't anything from AMD in nettops that is currently competitive.

In the near future AMD will have Zecate (Bobcat + GPU). Also, Intel is about to release cores on-chip GPU in Sandy Bridge - this will be the first decent Intel GPU in a very long time and will offer ION-like performance. However, neither of those is currently on the market and shipping in a nettop / htpc form.

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[Chris_Stankowitz]

Would you post the exact items you picked up, I've been looking to do the same. Thanks,

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[JackDW]

Thanks, I will remember this when it's time to replace the current HTPC. I am already convinced this is a better option than the Apple route.

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[adisakp]

Foxconn NT-330I with NVIDIA ION. NewEgg has them fairly regularly on "shell shocker" or "daily deal" for significantly less than the $199 current price (I paid $159) if you are willing to hunt for a bargain. I got the white but there was also a black one. I got a 1GB SODIMM for free -- people literally throw out older RAM they can't use :). I use the Dane-Elec 80 GB Intel SSD X18M I picked up for $125 @ NewEgg (again a "deal" price and then flashed to 8820 so it has no speed degradation). But really, any of the Atom 330's (dual core) with ION will work. An Atom 230 will work as well but it's only single core and most multimedia code scales very well with dual cores. Right now, I'm just deciding on a USB cpature / tuenr card and the setup will be complete.

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[Chris_Stankowitz]

TYVM

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[drinkypoo]

Under windows you can do HD flash on the Aspire that started it all, because of the GPU acceleration. Under Linux, not so much. At least you get VDPAU though. I am using the new accelerated 64 bit flash for Linux on Ubuntu Lucid, Phenom II X3 720, GT240 and it is still seriously fucking slow.

Re:Want Open - Get a Cheap NetTop

[kels]

There is literally no device out there that will run XBMC and Netflix at the same time.

Not "literally" true, a Mac mini would do both just fine. I assume you meant, "for less than $699."

DivX?

[Yvan256]

What next, RealMedia and VQF support?

There's basically zero legal sources for DivX files, so why would Apple support that old format? H.264/AAC is the standard and has been for a few years already.

Even Handbrake dropped DivX support, for crying out loud.

iPhone4 jailbreak, anyone?

[ACAx1985]

Can someone PLEASE jailbreak the new (August/September purchased) iPhone4?

Prosthetics

[tepples]

I don't wanna know what discount wholesaler you're getting your body parts from.

In some less developed countries, people with an amputation or congenital limb difference use a simple hook arm or a peg leg. But most of them probably can't afford an Apple TV.

Re:Prosthetics

[MBGMorden]

Why does it feel like I just fell into a Bing commercial?

Re:Right place, right time

[Joe Snipe]

I see what you did there! You said he should have bought the white-walled tires, instead of the plain black ones if he wanted to have the +1 Ego boost.

Why? Is he going to cruise the miracle mile?

Re:DivX?

[TrancePhreak]

Blizzard released some things in DivX. There may have been others.

"you've never bought a videogame console"

[tepples]

I countered with the point that this lock down trend is a completely new thing.

I apologize that the point missed me. The trend is not new in video game consoles, the one thing you didn't quote in your other comment.

A tradition against PC local multiplayer

[tepples]

Why would you exclude PCs as an option, given that's the obvious solution?

Because there is an apparent tradition among major video game publishers against developing PC games that support "a Revo and a couple USB joysticks". Instead, choosing "multiplayer" at the title screen takes the user to the Internet.

Geeks Can't Grok Tradeoffs

[Ukab the Great]

Technically there's tradeoff between meeting more obscure customer demand vs. safety issues. If a business refuses to serve the steak bloody rare, then they piss off the steak geeks and lose potential revenue. Yet if the business allows undercooked meat, they lose the safety net of well-done meat that protects their customers from e-coli and the resulting bad press and lawsuits.

The food safety engineer understands food and also understands there's no right answer to the question of allowing bloody rare steak; the company gives up one thing to get another thing. What it really boils down to is what side of the tradeoff he's on and what balancing of the food equation best serves the needs of the target audience.

The food geek only understand food; he doesn't understand the concept of tradeoff. He screams and howls that the steak is unfairly being crippled and that he's not getting it his way and his freedoms are getting infringed upon by "the man" because it's easier to understand the concept of the "man" than an equation that must be balanced on both sides to produce the best results for the target audience, which in the case of Burger King and their lawyers doesn't happen to be him.

Re:Geeks Can't Grok Tradeoffs

[jedidiah]

> The food geek only understand food

No. The food geek understands that quality is quality. Either your product is good enough to be served or not. If you have to char the meat, then it isn't fit for consumption.

Grind it up and turn it into burgers or sausages.

Just don't pretend it's proper steak. You should probably not bother trying to serve steak at all.

Non-charred steak is hardly "obscure". You're just trying to hide your own mediocrity if you start making claims of those sort.

Re:Geeks Can't Grok Tradeoffs

[Ihmhi]

Couldn't that whole problem be solved with a legal waiver? "I understand that undercooked (rare) steak may potentially put my health at risk" yadda yadda.

A bit of a hassle yes but it allows restaurants to cover their asses as well as let patrons make their choice (no matter how ill-advised some may believe it to be.)

Re:Geeks Can't Grok Tradeoffs

[ePhil_One]

> The food geek only understand food

No. The food geek understands that quality is quality.

The true geek groks:

Worst. Analogy. Ever.

Re:Geeks Can't Grok Tradeoffs

[dimeglio]

Yes, I'll make you sign a waiver where you agree that I can kill you. That'll certainly protect me.

Apple makes what they think sells (i.e. is useful, innovative, etc.), is simple to support and cost as little as possible to make.

Re:DivX?

[Yvan256]

As I said, basically zero. Even if you could find a list of 1000 legal files, that would still not be enough for Apple to bother.

MP3 was another story entirely, especially since audio CDs don't have any DRM or protection on them. DVDs are another matter.

So don't buy it then - they're not forcing you

[name_already_taken]

Because if you hadn't noticed, pretty much every other vendor seems to be following Apple's lead. Both in hardware design and in the belief that lock down is good. That diminishes my ability to avoid lock down.

I wouldn't give a damn if vendors offered the ability to easily unlock their devices in a fashion similar to the Nexus One (or better yet, the N900) but not a single one does. They either force you to find a hole and exploit it or make it nigh upon impossible (Motorola loves this path.)

Geez... take a Xanax.

Seriously, if you want an open device, buy something that's advertised as being open or build it yourself. They're out there.

I have a Windows PC in my stack of home theater electronics that has a solid state hard drive, one fan that never turns on, and consumes 6W idle. I can install any software I want on it. In fact, right now it's logging the electric power consumption in my house as a background task. Cost? Under $300 all together. Not bad, for a general purpose computer, and certainly powerful enough to duplicate the functions of the Apple TV and more.

Except, it's not part of the Apple i-device ecosystem, so iTunes and iPhoto won't sync with it easily. I want that functionality, so I have an Apple TV, the older model with the 160GB hard drive on it. I use it to watch things from my iTunes library, view photos from my iPhoto library, and play music from my iTunes library.

You know what? It works fantastically well for those things. There's even a remote control app so I can change the music from anywhere in the house using (oh, you'll probably have a stroke when you read this) an iPod Touch, iPhone or iPad. (My phone is a Nokia N95, just so you don't think I'm completely rabid about Apple stuff).

I know the Apple TV is not open, but I don't need it to be open - I just use it for the purposes it was designed and advertised for, and it excels at them. It's an entertainment device, like a DVD player or a cable box - it's not a general-purpose computer.

I see that you've carpet-bombed this discussion with comments complaining that this device isn't open. Well, it isn't intended to be open, any more than a DVD player or cable TV box is, because it has a few narrowly defined functions that it does very very well, and that's all it's supposed to do. And that's all that most buyers of these devices want. They want things that do these functions, and in return the devices don't require any maintenance or thought. Most people want devices that become invisible to the users.

If you want something that's open, there are plenty of general-purpose computers out there. Buy one of those. It's not like the general-purpose PC manufacturers all went out of business when Steve Jobs unveiled the Apple TV.

Re:So don't buy it then - they're not forcing you

[Microlith]

Seriously, if you want an open device, buy something that's advertised as being open or build it yourself. They're out there.

Sure, but that doesn't mean I can't be critical of what I see as a growing trend.

I see that you've carpet-bombed this discussion with comments complaining that this device isn't open.

I posted one comment, and this thread has exploded. Outside of it I've posted maybe two.

Well, it isn't intended to be open, any more than a DVD player or cable TV box is, because it has a few narrowly defined functions that it does very very well, and that's all it's supposed to do.

Except that Apple's pushing this exact same behavior with all of their other iOS devices while pushing ones like the iPad as a general purpose computing device. And at the same time, so many other manufacturers and OS vendors are happily following along behind them. And yeah, I can opt to not buy it. But that doesn't mean I should be forced to sit quiet while the market is flooded by locked down devices that displace and shrink the market for open hardware.

what jobs call's HD

[arbiter1]

During the big press conference apple had to rls this thing he quoted saying it played HD. What he didn't say it would do 1080i/p, which it can't since it uses Ipad's cpu inside it only supports at best 720p. Call me crazy for 100$ there are 2 other competitors out there with a streaming media box that supports about 10x more stuff then this worth hunk of crap. http://www.apple.com/appletv/specs.html -- proof lack of 1080 support

Re:what jobs call's HD

[jo_ham]

The "proof" at the lack of 1080 support was in Steve Jobs' actual keynote when he announced the thing - he made no secret that it only supported 720p. So he "did say it wouldn't do" 1080i and 1080p.

For $100, are those competing devices the size of of the new AppleTV (including the PSU)? Not all products address the same exact specs - that's why there are choices. It would be dull if they all did exactly the same thing with no variation whatsoever.

Re:what jobs call's HD

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

As far as I know, 720p is HD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-definition_video

Either way, if I buy the new AppleTV, it'd be just to jailbreak it and see if I can make that into my home server.
It takes only 1 watt more power than my gigabit switch, and I even have the d-link green one!

Re:what jobs call's HD

[tgibbs]

Considering that there is hardly any streaming 1080p content available for any device, it hardly seems much of a handicap. The difference between 720p and 1080p HD is pretty hard to see unless you have a really huge screen, anyway (or sit really, really close to your TV), so in practice it makes almost no difference to most people.

Re:Oh come on. They just proved it can be hacked.

[RapmasterT]

You can stream audio & video from your computer as long as it is in the VERY short list of Apple approved formats.

If the thing could do something as simple and basic as play plain old DVD .iso rips, I'd have one on order already. But it can't, and that's deliberate on Apples part. So yes, for many, MANY people, the device is unusable without the hack.

"Installing" the Mac mini?

[sean.peters]

"Installing" a Mac mini involves setting it on your desk, plugging in the power and peripherals, and turning it on. Installing Ubuntu: not hard, but certainly harder than that.

Scratching my head over this one.

[sean.peters]

Ok, grandpa doesn't use google, or apparently, the web browser at all. And if he can't figure out how to type something into the address bar, I doubt he's doing anything really far out and high tech, like, you know, e-mail or word processing. So what does he use it for - a portable heat source? Of course he doesn't call for tech support if he never uses the thing. I question whether this example is really relevant.

Re:Scratching my head over this one.

[zach_the_lizard]

He uses email and such, he's just unaware of the terms.

Re:DivX?

[tweak13]

So when I ripped a good portion of my DVD collection to Xvid awhile back, that was illegal? I sure as hell don't think so.

Not yet jailbroken

[oz_paulb]

The SHAtter exploit was used on an iPod touch to decrypt the AppleTV firmware. The AppleTV device has not yet been exploited - although it is likely susceptible to the same exploit. Once hackers get their hands on the device, they can try to use the exploit, then try to run jailbroken firmware on it. At this point, without knowing details of the SHAtter exploit, it's unclear to me whether/not that particular piece of code comes into play during a normal firmware update (since we don't know how the mini-USB port can be used yet - presumably "normal" code updates are done via wifi/Ethernet).

Re:DivX?

[Yvan256]

That's the point right there. You didn't buy any Xvid files, you made them yourself. And since you know how to do it, just re-do it in a more standard format like H.264/AAC instead of Xvid.

Re:DivX?

[Yvan256]

It's not like pirates don't have access to H.264 encoders either... and those el-cheapo 30$ circa 2005 hardware DivX players surely can't have any life left in them by now.

A standard H.264 file can be played on AppleTV, iPods, iPhones, iPads, PS3, PSP, Xbox360 and I'm sure I'm forgetting dozens of cellphones and other hardware such as Roku.

Another thing, as you say, is that it's easier to distribute smaller files. So I am honestly wondering why are they sticking with the old DivX format.

Re:DivX?

[AusIV]

It may be a legacy format, but there's a lot of content still available for it, and I can't imagine the cost of supporting it is that high. I have a TV tuner which does on board DivX encoding, and I have about a terabyte of (legally recorded) TV shows. Even if most of the people who would take advantage of DivX decoding are pirates, why should the hardware manufacturer care if it helps sell units? As far as I'm concerned, any media center device which doesn't support such a common legacy format isn't worth considering.

Re:DivX?

[adolf]

I think that perhaps that the applications for DivX are bigger than you think that they are.

Re:DivX?

[MistrBlank]

Actually according to the DMCA it was illegal.

Nettop stores are hard to find

[tepples]

While Best Buy only sells one nettop and then tries to hide it, Fry's has a much better selection (of everything).

According to the store locator on frys.com, I live 90.49 miles away from the closest Fry's store. The city bus doesn't go near that far.

TV replacement schedule

[tepples]

How often are you breaking your TV's? I know a TON of people running TV's that are 10+ years old.

Here's the pattern I've seen in households that aren't thrift-shop dependent: When a bedroom TV breaks, the family buys a new living room TV, and the old living room TV replaces the broken TV. A 12-year lifetime divided by three TVs equals an average of four years per replacement, and the U.S. transition to ATSC stimulated sales of new TVs anyway.

Hacking something already meant to act as a settop unit often just works better than trying to shoehorn a full computer into that role.

It would be even better if there were a set-top device for $200 or less that could run hobbyist applications with no hacking.