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Court Rules Dungeons and Dragons Threatens Prison Security
KermodeBear writes "Dungeons and Dragons — originally Satan's Game — has now been found to encourage gang-like behavior. In a finding by a three judge panel of the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, D&D 'can mimic the organization of gangs and lead to the actual development thereof.' From the ruling: 'during D&D games, one player is denoted the "Dungeon Master." 'The Dungeon Master is tasked with giving directions to other players, which Muraski testified mimics the organization of a gang.'"
This story is at least a year old. Thanks slashdot for rehashing the past.
Okay, okay, fine. Just have them play Paranoia instead. That oughta screw up the Court of Appeals.
Demanding constant attention will only lead to attention.
Jan 26. 2010: Seventh Circuit Rules Dungeons & Dragons A Threat to Prison Security
http://abovethelaw.com/2010/01/seventh-circuit-rules-dungeons-dragons-a-threat-to-prison-security/
the DM is anything but a "leader" in D&D. His job is more akin to that of the judges themselves, that passed this retarded ruling.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Haven't they got better things to do, like reducing the prevalence of weapons, drugs, alcohol and cellular phones in prisons?
... hierarchical command structures are everywhere in our society?
[Offtopic] Is it just me, or the new Slashdot design seems to have chased away most of the people out there? Most stories are very short on comments! Come on people, get back to trolling and bashing stuff!!
Have you heard about SoylentNews?
So don't let them all play rogues. What's the big deal?
"Ok, what do you do?"
"I backstab"
"Backstab"
"Um...Backstab?"
"I shank him"
"You're not supposed to say it like that! We'll get in trouble"
"Fine, jeeze...'backstab'"
"These people look deep within my soul and assign me a number based on the order in which I joined" --Homer re:
I served 15 days in a county Jail (under Huber law) about 15 years ago or so I actually brought a few roleplaying books in with me, and set up a gaming session. (most of the guys in there with me were in for minor drug possession, and quite a few were gamers). I wound up running a 36 hour gaming session where people picked up and left off when they got tired, or had to go to work. It helped pass the time immensely, and gaming made my two weeks in jail go a lot faster than it would have otherwise.
Don't get me wrong, it was still a terrible experience, and I wouldn't want to go back (and I haven't!). But banning things like D&D isn't going to solve anything.
The Employer is tasked with giving directions to employees, which Muraski testified mimics the organization of a gang.
The Teacher is tasked with giving directions to students, which Muraski testified mimics the organization of a gang.
The Emergency Broadcast System is tasked with giving directions to the public during an emergency, which Muraski testified mimics the organization of a gang.
Really? When you have criteria for gang behavior that is that loose, anything can be classified and banned.
The Warden is tasked with giving directions to prisoners, which Muraski testified mimics the organization of a gang.
...religious services banned in prisons.
They mimic gang activity, there is a "priest" or "sheik" or "prophet" that tells the other participants how to interpret and act on religious texts
but that the game encourages players to become obsessed with mentally escaping the restrictions of prison life
Because surely it NEVER occurred to inmates to attempt to mentally escape the restrictions of prison life until the DM told them to
Make them pee in a cup, make the results public.
What's next, Simon Says?
In other news the courts have ruled that businesses also mimick the structure of a gang with the CEO or "Pack Leader" giving directions to the rest of the business and biting the faces of those that disobey.
I thought distributed meshes were the new threat, like al Queada , Anonymous, wikileaks and teh intarwebs ?
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Given the inherent need for a good DM to have a streak of sadism, I would think prisons would encourage playing D&D with the guards acting as DM...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Where the hell (pardon the pun) did "Satan's Game" come from? D&D has always been Dungeons & Dragons since inception. Now get off my lawn!
Got me into eating small white pills. And don't even get me started on "candy"-land. And Battleship? I heard it trains terrorists on how to sink ships.
Honestly, they can find the most ridiculous things to try and turn something harmless into a big deal. D&D is not what created gangs. Gangs create gangs. And they certainly aren't running around screaming "lightning bolt" and talking about going into unexplored caves to find treasure out on the streets. This is beyond hilarious for anyone who has any kind of knowledge of both D&D and gang-related activities.
"I hope you know how very lucky you are to know me, because I am so incredibly incredible."
It leads to staying locked up in the basement with their accomplices so they're out not committing crimes. Problem solved?
It also leads to players getting their asses "kicked" by those that spend their time lifting weights instead of playing D&D.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
I really don't care about criminals rights, but the court got it wrong. The dungeon master is not the leader of the party and does not give orders or directions. DM represents an interface to the world. The party makes their own decision.
During an election, one politician is denoted the "President". The President is tasked with giving directions to the country, which Muraski testified mimics the organization of a gang.
They're all criminals anyway, now it's official.
Funny may not give karma, but +5 Informative never made anyone snort coffee out their nose.
The 7th circuit did *not* find that D&D encourages gang-like behavior. What it found is that this prisoner didn't provide any relevant evidence that it doesn't encourage gang-like behavior. Basically, the warden said "Hey, this sort of thing looks like something which could encourage gangs -- it mimics human interaction. So, we're banning it." The inmate could have gone out and found other wardens who said "No, we've had it in our prison, and it's been fine." But, he didn't. Instead, he found other inmates (or former inmates). And that's not good enough.
Not the real reason. They are worried about the inmates getting boots of escapement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxF0vygnF2Y
I'm sure this is just how the Bloods and the Crypts got started!
I hope they also banned pasta, because that leads to Italian Mafia.Just look at all those mafia movies, and they all seem to have at least one pasta eating scene. No spaghetti for prisoners, because they can dry it out to make skeleton keys.
Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
This is the appeal of that case. The initial ruling was upheld yesterday.
Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
Don't churches form groups the same way? Better not hold any form of religious meetings in prison either!
a coach on a sports team ... a boss at a job ... the chief of police to the officers. How dare someone be in charge of a situation. Are they advocating anarchy?
A while ago I had a case before the trial judge here. Knowing his personality, and age, it amuses me to no end to imagine the efforts the prisoners must have gone through to explain to him what Dungeons and Dragons is.
People in gangs reject society, and create their own. Now, what could be more natural society to create for a group of men than an informal but still very hierarchial one where everyone's heavily armed?
Emotions! In your brain!
In a related ruling, the court banned standing in queues for food in the cafeteria, because it mimics doing the bunny-hop. And spooning.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
"The Dungeon Master is tasked with giving directions to other players, which Muraski testified mimics the organization of a gang."
Or a corporation.
Please don't read my sig.
Not to mention killing things in dungeons and looting them. Dungeons are just what prisons were called in the old days.
There, an expert on prison gangs argued not only that having a Dungeon Master issue direction to other players “mimics the organization of a gang”, but that the game encourages players to become obsessed with mentally escaping the restrictions of prison life, which could threaten “the safety and security of the institution.”
As opposed to leaving them in the courtyard to look at the outside, separated from society by armed guards and chainlink fences?
A midshipman at the US Naval Academy was asked what the difference was between being in the Navy or a gang. He thought for a moment and said, "we have uniforms". It was the Washington Post, IIRC, and for all I know it may have been fabricated by the same reporter who wrote "Jimmy's World, the story of a 9 year old heroin addict".
It still has a ring of truth to it though.
So yeah, every social order is gang if you want to look at it that way. Did any of these people making the call actually, you know, check to see if DD players in prison were getting into more trouble, or less trouble?
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
That judge is going to have to ban all group activities with that logic. No basketball, or other sports, no quilting bees, no prison work groups, no film making, no year book, no cheerleading, no anything that has somebody directing/leading/refereeing that includes multiple people.
Ok, I listed some retirement home stuff and school stuff, but then again I'm pointing out how stupid the judges idea of things that leads to gang-like-behavior is. Additionally, I have no idea what people do in prison other than the tropes TV tells me such as basketball, weightlifting, and riots. TV sucks for accuracy, I'd have never guessed anyone played pnp rpgs there.
Courts rule that political parties are now illegal in the prison systems. Democrats, Republicans, Greens, Libertarians, and so forth are obviously modeled after gang organizations, and thus should be allowed. Especially those Tea Party-ers who like to engage in an activity they dub "tea bagging" - which in a prison is just wrong on so many levels.
If DM's were gang leaders their gangs would have to come though scores of instant death traps just to have an audience.
I was gangsta way back in 81'. Suck on it bitches, the druid's in da house!
"Ones and zeros were everywhere. I even think I saw a two!" - Bender
Make them pee in a cup, make the results public.
That should be mandatory for all bureaucrats and elected officials. And anybody else that wants to inflict drug testing on someone else.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
WTF?!?!?! Seriously??? Some people are stupid.
I actually watched the oral argument for this case, and the appointed counsel did a really hideous job ... one of the judges (based on the testimony of the correctional officer at trial) was talking about "escapism" being a problem that was promoted by dungeons and dragons, as in it would actually lead to the players escaping from the jail. The attorney completely missed this, didn't even familiarize himself with the material that was being discussed, and generally did a half-assed job of informing the court, which also admitted they had no idea how the game worked or what its implications were. I only partially blame the judges -- after all, part of your job is to inform the court of your arguments and interpretations of facts. That's what an oral argument is for.
So yes, "escapism" is a real problem. I expect the next things to be banned in the seventh circuit to be books, closely followed by looking out the window, closely followed by thinking.
Anyway, the judges have betrayed two things:
1. They have never been in a gang, because gang heirarchy doesn't work that way.
2. They have never played Dungeons & Dragons, because they think people actually listen to the DM.
That will make a good hollywood movie. More likely a comedy.
HA HA HA.
The prison guard tell them what to do all the time - the whole system is just a big gang.
I think the same can be said about the government. After all the US President is tasked with giving directions and his fellow gang members try to achieve the goals. Although there are two gangs running the country both are just legitimized organized criminal gangs. Pay your protection money, I mean taxes!
My Sig indicates the end of the comment I posted.
How many experience points is a prison guard worth? I really need to gain that level so I can finally get my "Weapon Focus (Shiv)" feat.
Well, my gang and I will be getting together this weekend to try and tackle the Tomb of Horrors. Hope the cops don't show up and bust us like they kicked us off a frozen pond while playing hockey a few weekends ago.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
I noticed that I started getting way, way fewer replies to my comments than normal, and when I went to look for my comments... they were invisible. Not modded down - most were still 2's. But you couldn't see them. Not sure what's going on.
In D&D, the Dungeon Master isn't the leader. He's the opposition.
A dungeon is a kind of prison:
http://thesaurus.com/browse/dungeon
So, what is a warden, if not the master of a dungeon?
"Some people are opposed to the death penalty because it makes the state into a murderer. I'm opposed to the prison system, because it turns the state into a gay dungeonmaster."
-Emo Philips
A gamer buddy of mine actual was in jail for a few years and game mastered plenty of games while he was incarcerated.
He said the escapism allowed by DnD or tabletop rpgs in general was one of the few things lifetimers had to look forward to while behind bars. I'm talking about stonecold killers with a lifetime of no parole. For a few, it was the only thing they had to look forward to in life. (You can easily argue that they don't deserve the fun they are having but that isn't what I'm trying to say.)
I think the courts are getting the wrong impression from what he told me. For example, when a player greets another player out in the yard and says "what up Olondir?" (referring to the player's character) he isn't referring to a gang name. They just have so much fun playing that they refer to each other by character names in real life.
So were you really a criminal who posed an actual threat to others or just there for committing a crime against the state (i.e. drug offense)? (To those who aren't aware, the majority of US prisoners are non-violent and pose no threat to anyone but the status quo.)
Yup - that was me - 13 years old, with a stack of graph paper, a bunch of pencils, and a bag of funny shaped dice. 100% pure gangsta!
who's moderating the meta-moderators?
Gang-"like" behavior? Because there are no gangs in prison? Or because the court would rather the inmate join a real gang than a D&D party? Is there a ban on team sports in jail too, because that's gang-like behavior too...
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Don't these people research or anything?
Oh right. Fox news. Carry on.
"Dungeons and Dragons — originally Satan's Game — has now been found to encourage government-like behavior. In a finding by a three judge panel of the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, D&D 'can mimic the organization of government and lead to the actual development thereof.' From the ruling: 'during D&D games, one player is denoted the "Dungeon Master." 'The Dungeon Master is tasked with giving directions to other players, which Muraski testified mimics the organization of a government.'"
We can't have any leaders in prison, that's just evil!!!!
during work hours, one player is denoted the "Boss." 'The Boss is tasked with giving directions to other players, which Muraski testified mimics the organization of a gang.'"
OMG - I'm in a gang too!
Does electing the leader of a basketball team, a football team, or the state governor not also teach the formation of a gang? Another waste of taxpayer dollars by people who do no real work but seek to be the moral guardians of us all is in play.
"The Dungeon Master doesn't tell players what to do, he's asks them what they are going to do, and the DM just tells them the consequences."
Not so. The Dungeon Master -- in my experience, anyway -- must take an active role as lead storyteller in the collective storytelling of D&D (or other role playing game).
The D.M. should appear to be impartial, aloof, merely telling players the consequences ... while gently maneuvering the players in order to keep the game running smoothly.
-kgj
Probably they will ban "Clue", "Monopoly" and others "dangerous" games.
Oh my god!!! Gang-like behaviour in a prison!! It must be that Satanic game's fault!
Seriously? Money and time got spent on this? Why do they allow sports in prison then? Obviously having a team captain and/or coach mimics gang-like behaviour!
Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
The prisoner should have said it doesn't encourage "gangs" - but rather it encourages parties!
While still being clueless on the details and unwilling to understand it any better, the judge would have been forced to conclude that "this game is off the hook, the bomb, and a real rager" and then join the inmates in a round of kamikazees.
Well TFA (Fox News so they could be as wrong as you seem to think I am) says this:
Published January 26, 2011 | FoxNews.com
A three-judge panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit weighed in Wednesday on a matter of grievous import to the nation's prisons: Dungeons & Dragons. And the Court's ruling was bad news for naughty nerds nationwide, concluding that the innocent-seeming board game was inviting trouble.
Emphasis mine. And, BTW, since when does being wrong on /. deserve a Troll mod? It's not like I was deliberately trying to mislead people. My comment was based on my understanding of the situation from RTFA. Ah, well I guess I'll just go crawl under my bridge and forget about it.
Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
> 'The Dungeon Master is tasked with giving directions to other players, which Muraski testified mimics the organization of a gang.'"
It also mimics the organization of.... FOOTBALL.
Or wait, hang on, I got it:
High school football has now been found to encourage gang-like behavior. "The quarterback is tasked with giving directions to other players, which mimics the organization of a gang".
Or, let's go at it from another direction.
Muraski claims that those pasty-faced guys in XXXL cargo pants and severely overstretched "Green Lantern" t-shirts you see rolling funny dice at the comic store are just one step away from roaming the streets wrecking terror and mayhem on the populace at large. If they can just catch their breath.
Or, let's try it this way.
Muraski claims that young adults with the predilection to violent behavior and a tendency to roam the streets in groups, are attracted to a geeky game played almost entirely by out-of-shape nerds with no social skills.
Ok, one more.
Muraski testifies to the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals that teamwork is antisocial behavior and should be discouraged whenever possible.
Sure, I'll buy that...
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Why are they being allowed to play games in the first place?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
They better not let them play bridge or any other card game, either. Because whoever wins the bid is able to declare trump and gives instruction to other palyers -- mimicking the organization of a gang.
Better not let them go to church or prayer groups, because that, too, is an organized group that follows a leader, mimicking the organization of a gang.
No, instead, let's keep them all couped up, doing nothing so they get frustrated and take that frustration out on each other or the guards. That won't be mimicking a gang, just gang warfare. A much better solution.
From the cited documents
"ARGUED SEPTEMBER 18, 2009â"DECIDED JANUARY 25, 2010"
http://abovethelaw.com/_old/2010/01/26/Singer%20v.%20Raemisch.pdf
... people to grok that the DM creates the fantasy world; he does not direct its inhabitants (known to Satan's Worshippers as "PCs")
It is completely outside a Judge's experience that humans lie outside his ability to direct.
Jury Nullification, baby.
Part of the Second American Revolution!
I remember in high school I told my parents we were going to play Dungeons and Dragons at our house over the weekend. My mom thought we were all going to commit suicide (or have an orgy since I had recently told her I liked guys). Both were extremely scary to her.
When she and my father eventually saw what playing was like they got bored and went back to watching Law & Order. These judges probably have never witnessed a D&D game, much less watched Law & Order.
...are these gangs lawful-good?
Ever notice how any sort of authoritarian organization absolutely fears anything that deals with giving people imagination and creativity. From the church to the government to the corporations, I've noticed time and time again the abject fear of anything that gives creative power to the individual. Corporations tend to allow creativity with strict controls over it, and the church is the absolute worst about accepting any sort of creative ideas. (ironic)
Really? what a waste of time and resources.....pleeeeeeeease.... oh..20!
Ah, but you assume because one playes D&D one doesn't do the other, or vice versa, that playing D&D alone will get one's ass kicked, or that if it does happen that somebody wants to beat somebody up for playing D&D that the person won't be able to get away or fight at all.
Assumptions based in stereotypes and not reality.
If you believe in privacy, and believe you have "nothing to hide" at the same time, you're a goddammed idiot
Rather than a "Dungeon Master", which has a leadership connotation that clearly the prisons have a problem with, they should play one of the RPGs with a "Storyteller". Here, the clear role (per the name,and per the RPG design) is to help drive the story, and so on. This way,they can pitch it as a group storytelling session. We nerds know that this is exactly what happens in most D&D games, but using a system whose very role names reinforce this "group storytelling" concept would do that.
I'm sure they could play star wars, or Fudge, or anything like that. Prison guards will punish them just the same, but this time when they appeal one would hope they would be able to say they were congregating for structured storytelling. There's no mastery envolved, only a referee. This would, of course, depend on rational and informed judges.
Don't these people research or anything?
The short answer is no.
Decisions need to be based on evidence that is open and public. Witnesses who can be cross-examined.
You can't allow the system to be subverted by a judge or juror because of what they think they know after reading an essay in the Wikipedia.
It's not surprising that a warden might be wary of an RPG. That he might not be willing to invest the time to properly monitor the play. The primal scenario in D&D is that you escape the dungeon, loot the treasure troves and kill whatever - whoever - stands in your way.
Yeah, this is nothing like a gang! More like the mob...
Reminds me more of a panel of judges, where the panel master, err, the chairman instructs the others to... Wait a minute!
Ah, but you assume because one playes D&D one doesn't do the other, or vice versa, that playing D&D alone will get one's ass kicked, or that if it does happen that somebody wants to beat somebody up for playing D&D that the person won't be able to get away or fight at all.
Assumptions based in stereotypes and not reality.
To both you and whoever modded this "Troll"
WHOOSH!
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
Seriously, there are a ton of people that seem to be completely missing the 'Satan's Game' reference. Go look up Dead Alewives. They did a skit that started with the words "Dungeons and Dragons, Satan's game"
To be fair, it was called things similar to that before the skit. But yes, that skit is hilarious.
For those too lazy too head to youtube and look up "Dead Alewives" and "Dungeons and Dragons", here's a link to an 8-bit version that someone made, based off the original audio:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHdXG2gV01k
psmylie's dictionary: Godzillion (noun) Any number large enough to destroy Tokyo
.... to the That's How I Roll t-shirt.
Ceci n'est pas un sig.
In retaliation for this ruling, my next D&D campaign will railroad the players into a prison where they have to get the warring factions inside to band together ultimately building to a riot and jailbreak.
Come on, thats stupid. Now what will i do when i go to jail for internet piracy??!?!
Everyone knows zombies have poor reflexes
Fact: Everything I say is fiction.
Don't hate the game, hate the playa....
Honestly, if a prisoner is learning social skills that don't have to do with keestering or smashing your face in, and wants to gain expertise in making friends in the most accepting demographic of our times (pencil and paper RPG players)? I'm okay with that.
As far as #2... I'd rather someone was toying around with imaginary shivs than real ones. Prisoner's still have first amendment rights, which necessarily includes storytelling.
"'The Dungeon Master is tasked with giving directions to other players, which Muraski testified mimics the organization of a gang.'" ...this is also mimics the organization of a corporation too.
*
I CAN testify to the fact that tempers get hot when the DM is an butt-hole, or other players are too stupid to handle even simple situations. The problem is especially acute with DMs. DMs in my understanding can be cool or not cool. Given the nature of criminals, DM criminals tend to not be cool. However, during my experiences with D&D in a Federal joint, at least one DM that I knew wasn't that bad. But most of the rest easily tended to be either brutal on their players (within the game that is) or just bizarre.
I know back in the '90's several Federal prisons banned D&D because of the incidence of shankings that occurred. So the potential for violence in a violent place is definitely real. Several inmates I played D&D with said they didn't mind playing at a FCI (a Federal Correctional Institute, a medium security facility) but wouldn't consider playing at a Penitentiary (a high security facility) due to the risk of playing with more violent offenders.
But "stimulating gang activity"? That's just ridiculous. You're either in a gang or you're not in the joint. The decision is made by your background on the street, not by some game. By far most prison D&D players in my experience were white urban criminals, many of whom probably weren't gang members on the street, although some undoubtedly were. Whether they would participate in gang activities in the joint would be totally determined by their previous gang membership or their wish to join a prison gang for support reasons. D&D is purely a recreational activity the same as weight lifting or basketball or card playing in the joint. Who you do it with is determined by your social connections in the joint, not the reverse.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
For goodness' sake!
Roleplaying games are good practice in (verbal) communication and cooperation.
Isn't the lack of those skills part of why many of them are in jail?
Have 'em play Call of Cthulhu instead, heh!
...Tonight on 'World's Stupidest Judges.'
To play D&D, you need to learn to:
* Follow a set of written rules
* Consider the wishes of your peers
* Work with your peers towards a common goal
I.e, roughly the same skills which are important for being a law-abiding citizen and being able to hold a job.
That being said, I doubt a game in itself makes much difference. Those who already have the above-mentioned skills are more likely to start playing D&D, not the other way around.
A dungeon master does *NOT* typically give the players any direction whatsoever... the players usually have to figure things out for themselves. To liken a dungeon master to a gang leader would be like a gang leader who deliberately creates obstacles for the gang to overcome.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
If the DM was giving out orders, then it sounds like he was a really bad DM. Either that, or there really was a gang that tried (poorly) to mask its operations as a D&D session.
Brings new meaning to the term "railroading," I guess.
DM: "You see a hoopty rolling up on you. The tinted window is coming down slowly."
Player: "I jump into the bushes and grab my strap."
DM: "Roll for initiative."
I find the new favicon irritating, because the corners are white not transparent.
I use firefox with an infographics of the solar system as the personas settings, and the white corners show on black background.
Hey don't blame me, IANAB