Apple Logging Locations of All iPhone Users

An anonymous reader writes "The Guardian reports that researchers have found a hidden file on all iPhones, iPads and any computers to which they synchronize, logging timestamped latitude and longitude coordinates of the user since June 2010. A tool is available on their website to check on your own."

Comments

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[NEDHead]

Surprise!

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[EraserMouseMan]

Don't worry. Steve's just looking out for your user experience. If you really understood what this was about you'd be amazed at how Steve is just doing this so he can wow you and revolutionize your life. Now put the ear buds back in please.

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[drb226]

Big Brother Steve is watching (out for?) you.

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[CharlyFoxtrot]

1) no evidence location is tracked when you turn off location services (unlikely)
2) no evidence the file is leaving your phone (or its encrypted backups on your pc), you need to jailbreak the physical device it to obtain it
3) you could get the same kind of information by looking at geotagged pictures people upload absolutely everywhere.

The headline gives the impression the phone is phoning home this info to Apple, this is NOT stated in the article. My impression is that it is a cache file which they fail to clean.

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[FatdogHaiku]

Now put the ear buds back in please.

and push them in until they touch each other...

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[Abstrackt]

Apples 1984 commercial was the first thing I thought of as well. The irony is almost too much to bear.

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[jordan314]

Most people's backups are not encrypted. I just tried the app and it worked flawlessly from my my backups. You do not need to jailbreak to run the app.

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[elrous0]

Yes, he's knows what's best. We should all agree with you.

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[duguk]

No surprise here. I posted about this ages ago, but everyone argued that I was talking out of my arse by a whole load of iPhone users.

We knew Apple were doing this nearly a year ago

Next, they'll be sharing it with their 'partners', and using it for direct advertising. You've already agreed to it in the terms.

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[msauve]

My impression is that it is a cache file which they fail to clean.

The article clearly states "[the file] is transferred across [to a new iPhone or iPad] when you migrate..."

That's not an uncleaned cache, it's a deliberately maintained database.

The FAQ which is pointed to states "it's an SQLite database file, you can use any standard SQLite browser...Open up the file, choose the 'CellLocation' table, and you can browse the tens of thousands of points that it has collected. The most interesting data is the latitude, longitude location and the timestamp." It also says "As far as we can tell, the location is determined by triangulating against the nearest cell-phone towers."

Backup encryption is something which must be enabled (how many iPhone users do that, or even know of it?), so your implying that the data is encrypted is misleading, as is the claim that a jailbreak is necessary. Finally, there's nothing to indicate your claim that this won't collect data when location services are turned off is correct.

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[tripleevenfall]

I don't think it's a cache file which is not garbage collected. But the title IS bad because it's not being transmitted to Apple. It's just being logged on your device where other apps can use it. (as if that's much better...)

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[Cali Thalen]

Reference yesterday's story...

http://apple.slashdot.org/story/11/04/19/2231240/Michigan-Police-Could-Search-Cell-Phones-During-Traffic-Stops

I wonder if this location data would be part of what could be extracted there...

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[CharlyFoxtrot]

You need to jailbreak the phone and/or break into the PC it syncs to. Granted, pretty easy if you want to catch a cheating spouse but harder for malicious strangers.

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[CharlyFoxtrot]

Backup encryption is something which must be enabled (how many iPhone users do that, or even know of it?), so your implying that the data is encrypted is misleading, as is the claim that a jailbreak is necessary. Finally, there's nothing to indicate your claim that this won't collect data when location services are turned off is correct.

Granted I was under the assumption it used GPS data, if it is triangulation data it might always collect. I want to get to this file as soon as I can it sounds interesting but I can't at the moment. If it collects information on cell-towers to then it might map the best reception for a given location, or map location to tower positions to speed up location services such as maps.

And you need physical access to the phone or the syncing PC to get the file, if you have such physical access you can get at a LOT of interesting information other than location data.

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[CharlyFoxtrot]

IIRC iPhones can sync only to a limited number of computers (to prevent sharing of mp3's) and I doubt the police are going to jailbreak devices, or if that's even legal without a reasonable suspicion or court order.

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[Anonymous Coward]

I sincerely doubt a professional data retrieval device for governments has to bother with these inane restritions.

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[binford2k]

Finally, there's nothing to indicate your claim that this won't collect data when location services are turned off is correct.

There's also nothing to substantiate your insinuation that Apple has somehow magically created a GPS system that continues to track location when it's OFF.

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[jittles]

You recall incorrectly. You can take anyone's iphone and back it up to your iTunes so long as there is no screen lock. The backup does not transfer any music.

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[anotheregomaniac]

You must not have read yesterday's article. The forensic device the police use (similar to machines retailers use to transfer your info from an old phone to a new one) fully dumps all content. That file would certainly be among the data. Legal or not is another matter.

Check out this app that displays that data:

http://petewarden.github.com/iPhoneTracker/

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[CharlyFoxtrot]

I did not read that article in fact.

Checking out the app now, here's a couple finds :

- as stated elsewhere it doesn't appear to log *your* exact position but that of cell towers you use. The data points on the map are laid out in a sort of rectangular grid across my home town.
- the sqlite file contains tables such as WifiLocation and CellLocation which reinforce my idea that it's some sort of cache/database file used by the OS to make better connections and to do it faster by remembering past connections for an area.
- no logging of a trip I took last summer, so either data is being destroyed after a set time or this is a new "feature"
- there are some outlier data points at places I haven't visited, which is odd.

Seems like this file should be encrypted or protected in some way. That's clearly an oversight on Apple's part.

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[Anonymous Coward]

From the looks of it, it is using A-GPS which is not GPS from satellites but triangulated from surrounding cell towers. So in that case, yes it could still track you even though GPS is turned off, unless you also have the phone portion turned off (or in airplane mode).

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[msauve]

Stop trying to make yourself look foolish. It's not clear if you are trolling, stupid, simply can't read, or some combination of the three. As the article says, it appears to use cell towers to determine location, by which rough location can be determined quite easily. So, no "magical GPS" necessary. Now, do you want to claim that iPhone users commonly travel with their phone service disabled?

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[CharlyFoxtrot]

Huh, didn't know that. That's pretty bad since not only this file but also the contact database, sms db and any encrypted app databases would be transferred and up for grabs. You could imagine a spy-like scenario where your phone is lifted, synced and then returned without you even knowing it was gone. A good argument for the screenlock (which I dislike) and to improve its rather poor security, I still can't be arsed to enable it though.

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[NeverVotedBush]

Earlier on Slashdot...

"The Michigan State Police have a high-tech mobile forensics device that can be used to extract information from cell phones belonging to motorists stopped for minor traffic violations. The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) of Michigan last Wednesday demanded that state officials stop stonewalling freedom of information requests for information on the program. A US Department of Justice test of the CelleBrite UFED used by Michigan police found the device could grab all of the photos and videos off of an iPhone within one-and-a-half minutes. The device works with 3000 different phone models and can even defeat password protections. 'Complete extraction of existing, hidden, and deleted phone data, including call history, text messages, contacts, images, and geotags,' a CelleBrite brochure explains regarding the device's capabilities."

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[CharlyFoxtrot]

One more item to add to my list on why not to visit the US. Pretty depressing. I just hope they don't give politicians around here any ideas.

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[Swave An deBwoner]

If it is done using triangulation then GPS functionality is not needed, hence it will still be able to collect data with GPS off, so long as the phone itself is on.

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[Swave An deBwoner]

Some of them hold the phone incorrectly, so, yes :-)

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[jittles]

Yeah I figured this out the hard way when I wanted to charge my iphone at work. I installed itunes and plugged it in and, without any prompting, immediately backed everything up to my work computer. I was less than thrilled. THankfully you can tell it not to start iTunes for a specific device, but if iTunes is open it still will sync and backup automagically. And it was all because iPods and iPhones won't charge on Windows XP unless the driver from iTunes is installed.

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[Anonymous Coward]

One more item to add to my list on why not to visit the US. Pretty depressing. I just hope they don't give politicians around here any ideas.

How will we ever go on without you. PS: Your country is not perfect.

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[sglewis100]

Stop trying to make yourself look foolish. It's not clear if you are trolling, stupid, simply can't read, or some combination of the three. As the article says, it appears to use cell towers to determine location, by which rough location can be determined quite easily. So, no "magical GPS" necessary. Now, do you want to claim that iPhone users commonly travel with their phone service disabled?

Yes, it can do so. But again, Apple has location services as something that can be turned off completely, which would mean it does not track this information, even if the cell phone was on. Also, location services are specific to apps, so some apps can track, others can't. As to this file, well, luckily, you can't access my PC, so I guess it's safe. But I just turned on encrypted backups. Voila! Problem solved! PS: There are lots of other things in the backups, that if not encrypted, are readable.

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[CharlyFoxtrot]

That's odd, I charge my iPhone at work all the time and my workstation (XP) doesn't have iTunes installed, it does recognize it as a camera though. No such luck with the iPad, it charges, even though it reports it won't, but only at a couple of % per hour which is pretty useless.

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[Qwavel]

They are not sharing it, they are selling it. That is clearly spelled out in the EULA.

Imagine if Google did anything like this. People would go beserk.

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[Wild_dog!]

First they have to have a reason and then they have to ask to have your phone to run the scan on. I would guess that if you refuse, they would have to go and get a court order to do it unless I am completely wrong.
From the photo of the slashdot article link posted earlier, it showed the phone connected physically. The police must ask first so it won't be something that is going on without ones knowledge.

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[CharlyFoxtrot]

I'm skeptical that as a foreigner I would have the luxury of refusal, I wouldn't want to argue wether or not the Bill Of Rights protects non-citizens with someone with the power to detain and/or deport me.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Apple 1984 commercial

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[jittles]

That is interesting. I installed iTunes prior to installing service pack 3, so perhaps SP3 had the iPhone drivers in it? Cause when I first got my iPhone it would sync on Vista (ugh) but not on XP w/o iTunes.

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[msauve]

"Apple has location services as something that can be turned off completely"

It's closed source, so how do you know it's not continuing to collect data, even if that collection isn't made visible to the user? How do you know that the file in question is a result of the location services which can be turned off?

According to Apple, "Location Services is on by default, but you can turn it off if you don't want to use this feature or to conserve battery life. You can also individually control which applications have access to Location Services data." Which application do you turn off to prevent this file from being created/updated? Additionally, Apple says "Location Services allows applications such as Maps, Camera, and Compass ... to determine your approximate location." The only example given is with regard to current location, which implies impermanence. There is no mention of keeping a database of historical location information, no mention of how that database might be deleted if desired, and no mention if applications are allowed to access historical data (not just current location).

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[sglewis100]

"Apple has location services as something that can be turned off completely" It's closed source, so how do you know it's not continuing to collect data, even if that collection isn't made visible to the user? How do you know that the file in question is a result of the location services which can be turned off?

Apple's Guy Tribble, VP of Software Technology gave senate testimony on the very subject.

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[Anubis IV]

We knew Apple were doing this nearly a year ago

There's a big difference between assuming something is true and proving something is true. You did the former, while the researchers did the latter.

On the point of sharing, haven't you heard about the opt-in requirement they're laying down for all App Store subscriptions? The folks running the subscriptions have been in a tizzy for months since they won't be able to glean information from their subscribers unless the subscribers explicitly opt-in to sharing their information. More compelling, however, is that Apple has no need to sell the information. Apple has always been about the customer experience, and giving out their customer's data is contrary to that idea, in much the same way that they chose to forgo the Intel subsidization that would have come from putting an Intel Inside sticker on their computers.

Instead of sharing, I predict that they'll use the data themselves. Remember, Apple has tried (and failed) to make inroads into the social networking sphere, it clearly wants to get into cloud computing, and it wants to offer services and technologies that its future users will actually use, even if those future users don't even realize they are lacking that product now. It's in Apple's best interest to study their own users, so, as you argued a year ago, it should come as no surprise that they are tracking their users. I would be surprised, however, if they shared that data.

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[cusco]

Just as an FYI, the Bill of Rights protects anyone who is **IN** the Untied States, although not necessarily on US-owned property outside the States (hence Guantanamo).

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[ustolemyname]

Yes. Yes there is. "As far as we can tell, the location is determined by triangulating against the nearest cell-phone towers." - this is how iPods (which don't even have a gps chip) have been able to use maps applications since the first touch came out. So no, apple wouldn't need the GPS system to be on. As disabling location services does not disable cellular functionality, it clearly just disables access to the cell-based location API, not turn the ability off. And listening to cell tower location could even be possible if you put the phone in airplane mode.

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[Anonymous Coward]

And if you ever get arrested or even stopped for speeding(http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20055431-1.html) they have access to everywhere you've ever been.

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[Wild_dog!]

I guess guantanamo is kind of like an "Untied" State........

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[msauve]

That's it? Meh.

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[sglewis100]

And you were hoping for what? Apple open sourcing everything? I try to stay within the bounds of something that might actually happen.

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[Pieroxy]

Stop trying to make yourself look foolish

If nobody KNOWS, then nobody KNOWS. The GP said "That's not an uncleaned cache, it's a deliberately maintained database." The tense implies that this is a known fact, when the information was just pulled out of his arse.

Might be true. Might not. Who knows?

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[Anonymous Coward]

there are some outlier data points at places I haven't visited, which is odd.

Well, Mr. Foxtrot, let's hope nothing odd happened at those locations at those times. You say you weren't there, but we have reason to believe that you were.

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[ezratrumpet]

I wonder if the devices still store locations while running in Airplane Mode.

That would be troublesome (for Apple) on even deeper levels than personal privacy.

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[Wyatt Earp]

Michigan is not the entire United States, only 7-8% of the driving public is ever pulled over in any event.

So why would that keep you from the US?

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[Wyatt Earp]

Local Law Enforcement in the US doesn't have the power to deport you if you are stopped and as others have said, the Bill of Rights protects anyone in the United States, no matter where they are from, as long as they are here legally, and in many cases, even illegally.

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[DerekLyons]

Google *already* does this, how do you think AdSense generates all those nice targets ads?

The result hasn't been people going berserk. The result has been people putting their fingers in their ears, shutting their eyes tightly, and going "Google does no evil, GOOGLE does no evil, GOOGLE DOES NO EVIL".

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[MartinSchou]

I have to raise doubts about the 90 second claim.

I have a 32 GB iPhone, and 32 GB in 90 seconds would be 364 MByte/second or 2,900 Mbit/second. Over a USB 2 connection. Suuure.

At most, MOST, you can extract 4.4 GB in 90 seconds (90 seconds * 400 Mbit/s), and I seriously doubt you'll find any phone that delivers that amount of throughput.

And keep in mind, the quote you have says "ALL of the photos and videos". The smalles iPhone is 8 GB, and at a much more realistic speed of 100 Mbit/s, that'd be close to 11 minutes.

90 seconds my ass.

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[BBTaeKwonDo]

only 7-8% of the driving public is ever pulled over in any event.

Make that about 8% of drivers each year . In 2005, it was 8.8%; source: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/cpp05.txt

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[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Surprise!

Not really. IOW almost a dupe. Only "almost" because after 8 month they stumbled upon how Apple does what they said they do.

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[binford2k]

And what's your point? Do you seriously think that this isn't already known by the company who runs the damn towers you're connecting to? And hey, guess what?! They don't have to have physical access to your device to get to this info! ZOMG!

In order to access info that's more detailed than is already known, your GPS has to be active. Logic, bro. Use it.

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[binford2k]

Information that's already known by the carrier. As with ever cell phone ever used.

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[binford2k]

Yeah. And that's already known information. Just like with every cell phone ever connected to the network.

And listening to cell tower location could even be possible if you put the phone in airplane mode.

No, this is not possible. Airplane mode turns off the radios. That's kind of the point of airplane mode.

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[phoenix321]

Nobody knows for sure, but judging from the evidence presented and the circumstances surrounding them, a clear verdict should be possible.

A cached database of location points is only created for a reason, especially when it's done on a mobile device, using scarce CPU cycles and even scarcer battery power to do it. The GPS receiver and CPU consume quite a bit of power, which is the most precious resource on a smartphone. Switching on the main radio for triangulating its position when GPS is unavailable is even worse, considering it is then usually triggered inside buildings, where the main radio has to ramp up transmit power to get to their cell tower.

Fine-grained tracks recorded when no application is actively requesting them?
An uncalled-for but constant drain on the most precious resource and deciding factor of a smartphone - its battery?
Neat position databases with no discernible limits in length, just for a cache?
Large amounts of data synchronized to a new phone via the owner's synced computer, by accident?
All this effort for a database that until now wasn't documented, unused and unavailable to any existing app in the entire app store, for a legitimate reason?

All cheaters usually exclaim even when caught red-handed "It's not what you think, it's not what it seems, there's a good explanation for it."

But all things considered, this is a textbook example of "if it quacks like a duck". And Apple cheated on this one. Face it and show them the door.

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[commodoresloat]

you're holding them wrong

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[jc42]

And if you ever get arrested or even stopped for speeding(http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20055431-1.html) they have access to everywhere you've ever been.

It might be interesting to see how this works out in courts. There are often interesting "artifacts" in the iPhone's record of where it's been. Some time back (last summer), while my wife was driving, I held both her iPhone and my G1 phone, and watched our track on both. After watching the iPhone track us doing things like driving across a good-size lake, and rapidly jumping around between several roads that were a few miles apart, I watched an especially odd part of our travels. Suddenly it showed our position about 80 miles to the east-southeast, where we were driving north along maybe 10 miles off the coast of Cape Cod. We apparently continued this ocean drive for maybe 10 minutes, then we suddenly teleported back to roughly the position we saw out our windows.

Similarly, I've recently seen Google Maps on my G1 show me driving around in Montana, western Ontario, Nova Scotia, and even Alaska. This was shortly before or after it had my position as being near home in the Boston area. Several times it has jumped back and forth every few minutes between my actual position and one of these other places. Once I had to reboot it to get it to stabilize on one location (the correct one ;-).

Such behavior on the part of cell-phone mapping software would be pretty easy to document and present in court. I wonder how the courts would react to it?

Anyone else whose phone has shown similar wildly-inaccurate positions is welcome to comment. Maybe we should be building records of such things, for the benefit of people whose phones have been subpoenaed by the courts.

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[jc42]

I wonder if the devices still store locations while running in Airplane Mode.

It's likely. Note that the metaphor "Airplane Mode" comes from the claim by the airlines that cell phones' broadcasts might interfere with the airplane's electronics. The solution to this is to ban cell phones from sending data while inside an airplane. But the phone can be monitoring incoming signals without broadcasting anything, and all that the location software really needs is the signal strengths and header data (to extract the cell-towers' IDs). Similarly with GPS, which is receive-only for everyone. Determining location doesn't require sending any messages at all, it's done by decoding the packets sent by others with known positions.

Unless we can get access to the actual code, we should assume that little computers with wireless comm capabilities can always determine their position to some degree of precision. There may no longer be any part of the world where the air isn't full of data packets that suffice to determine location. If you don't want your gadget (and various other people) to know where it is, you probably should turn it off. And even then, you don't know that it's actually totally off; you just know that it's not showing any external signs of activity. So maybe you should leave it home.

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[toriver]

No, without iTunes the iPhone looks to the computer like a camera in (read-only) "disk mode". Only the "camera roll" files are visible then.

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[Pieroxy]

So I see you suspect malice over incompetence, but you failed to provide the main proof for malice: The motive. Why would Apple do such a thing? What do they have to gain by letting a trail like this on all phones?

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[Intron]

You left out the most important point, which is that you can get this data for any phone by asking the phone service provider.

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[rednip]

Perhaps they just got jealous about how much Google knows about everyone?

I smell class action lawsuit that might actually benefit me a tiny, tiny amount (likely a rebate), but there is more money for a quick filing lawyer. I'm sure that there are many ambulances going un-chased with the stampede to cash in on this one.

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[ekhben]

Airplane mode turns off (stops sending power to) all the wireless communications chips in the device: cell, gps, wifi, and bluetooth. You can't get location information while in airplane mode.

You can turn wifi back on while in airplane mode, but the BCM4750 will still be off, and you will still get no location information.

If Apple don't really disable the chips in airplane mode in order to keep tabs on where you are, they'll likely lose their accreditation for it, so I'm pretty sure they really do disable the chips.

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[Sabriel]

If you read the appmakers' FAQ, they mention it deliberately downgrades the resolution:

"To make it less useful for snoops, the spatial and temporal accuracy of the data has been artificially reduced. You can only animate week-by-week even though the data is timed to the second, and if you zoom in youâ(TM)ll see the points are constrained to a grid, so your exact location is not revealed. The underlying database has no such constraints, unfortunately."

Regarding your idea that "it's some sort of cache/database file used by the OS to make better connections and to do it faster" - uh, how?

wifi/cell: Hey there I'm an access point, here's my station id, give me the right password and I'll let you use me.
phone: cool, hang on, before I look up my station:password table I'll just look up my database of where I've been before so I can connect to you faster!
wifi/cell: wtf?

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[Kalriath]

I did not read that article in fact.

Checking out the app now, here's a couple finds :

- as stated elsewhere it doesn't appear to log *your* exact position but that of cell towers you use. The data points on the map are laid out in a sort of rectangular grid across my home town.
- the sqlite file contains tables such as WifiLocation and CellLocation which reinforce my idea that it's some sort of cache/database file used by the OS to make better connections and to do it faster by remembering past connections for an area.
- no logging of a trip I took last summer, so either data is being destroyed after a set time or this is a new "feature"
- there are some outlier data points at places I haven't visited, which is odd.

Seems like this file should be encrypted or protected in some way. That's clearly an oversight on Apple's part.

Um, half of that is explained by the description of the app.

To make it less useful for snoops, the spatial and temporal accuracy of the data has been artificially reduced. You can only animate week-by-week even though the data is timed to the second, and if you zoom in you’ll see the points are constrained to a grid, so your exact location is not revealed. The underlying database has no such constraints, unfortunately.

and

As far as we can tell, the location is determined by triangulating against the nearest cell-phone towers. This isn’t as accurate as GPS, but presumably takes less power. In some cases it can get very confused and temporarily think you’re several miles from your actual location, but these tend to be intermittent glitches.

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[plover]

I just spent time decoding the data and viewing it in Google Earth. It has my location to within an area roughly a kilometer wide, not to a point. It appears to be caching the MCC, MNC, LAC, and CI of the towers near the locations I've traveled, the timestamp of when it first downloaded them, and it caches several of them at a time. The reason is likely to be "to provide quick response for location services".

Would it be damning if I were someone trying to deny my phone was near a place at a certain time? It could be. I think the next step is to take the phone on a tour of the city, preloading the cache with data about every tower and wifi access point in town. At least then the time stamps wouldn't convict me of a later visit. Of course, the police could more easily retrieve the real-time records directly from AT&T, with a warrant and without my consent.

I'm hardly an apple fanboi, but the reasons seem fairly explainable, even if the results seem potentially dangerous.

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[plover]

If you read the appmakers' FAQ, they mention it deliberately downgrades the resolution:

"To make it less useful for snoops, the spatial and temporal accuracy of the data has been artificially reduced. You can only animate week-by-week even though the data is timed to the second, and if you zoom in youâ(TM)ll see the points are constrained to a grid, so your exact location is not revealed. The underlying database has no such constraints, unfortunately."

Regarding your idea that "it's some sort of cache/database file used by the OS to make better connections and to do it faster" - uh, how?

wifi/cell: Hey there I'm an access point, here's my station id, give me the right password and I'll let you use me.
phone: cool, hang on, before I look up my station:password table I'll just look up my database of where I've been before so I can connect to you faster!
wifi/cell: wtf?

Not having a Mac, I didn't use their app. I opened the database files and retrieved the data myself, then plotted it in KML, so there was no "downgrade of resolution". I was playing with the raw data. The data strongly appears to be cache entries for use by Location Services. The timestamps indicate it's retrieved in groups of rows, returning several points simultaneously. When you look at the plots of the data, you can see a series of bubbles around specific points I had recently been at or driven past. The data is not an accurate rendition of where I was, but rather a large cloud of points around areas where I'd been. The data shows that I traveled to a northern town last weekend, but does not show where in that town I spent my time. And it contains data for places I didn't even go to, but those places surrounded a straight line extending my actual travel path. Possibly it heard a cell tower from far to the west, and shoved the cache of local-to-it towers to my phone.

Location Services is Apple's interface to answer the question "where is the phone now?" It uses all kinds of radio data to figure it out: Wifi access points, cell tower triangulation, and GPS all are inputs, even if one or more is unavailable. If it encounters a new MAC address, it sends the current GPS coordinates back to Apple so they can send it out to other iPhone users. If it encounters a new cell tower, it reports that as well. The iPhone users all invisibly share the creation and use of Apple's common location database.

So be paranoid if you want. Fine, I won't stop you. But I'm going to bed tonight without losing any sleep over it.

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[Sabriel]

Heh, I'm not paranoid, just cynical. :)

Thankyou for the explanation. I still don't see how it's useful or why they feel a need to keep such a long tail, but... meh.

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[Kagetsuki]

It's passive reception from the towers being logged on the device - so it would have no effect on aircraft and I'm assuming it would comply with regulations.

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[jittles]

Sorry, I didn't mean sync, I meant charge. When I bought my iPhone 3G, you could not charge it on XP without drivers.

Re:ummm

[arisvega]

It is to enhance the user experience, and deliver better services. There was an anouncement of the feature, down on the basement, behind the door with the sign "beware of the Leopard OS"

Re:ummm

[arisvega]

It is to enhance the user experience, and deliver better services. There was a public anouncement of the feature, down on the basement, behind the door with the sign "beware of the Leopard OS"

Re:ummm

[Anonymous Coward]

Not at all in fact, more or less knew about it. Ever read the EULA?

Re:ummm

[Ruke]

1) no evidence location is tracked when you turn off location services (unlikely)

TFA clearly states that location is tracked when you turn off location services.

Re:ummm

[juasko]

I tried to manually decipher the file name and location, it's not the easiest thing, if you don't use already developed tools for this task.

One more thing, if u turn on encryption, it seems like the file on the device is encrypted too not just the backups. Anyone with a JB iPhone that can confirm this?

Re:ummm

[juasko]

Sigh, triangulation does happen with GPS satellites too, but then we just say GPS. When talking about triangulation they mean of the network stations, over GSM or what ever connection you have.

Furthermore your, phone is anyway tracked by the operators. And there triangulation is way more accurate, as they know their exact location of their antennas.

I wonder which government

[afidel]

I wonder which government asked them to do that, oh yeah ALL of them...

Re:I wonder which government

[sakdoctor]

Do you really need to invoke a government conspiracy? This is Apple we're talking about.

Re:I wonder which government

[EraserMouseMan]

What's your point?

Re:I wonder which government

[cpscotti]

Which other IT big asked them to do that?
Google? Microsoft? Oracle? (I know Oracle is quite off but they are soo.. sooo...)

Re:I wonder which government

[poetmatt]

you kidding? Apple labels this a feature! Do you not remember that mobile me thing which tracks location? Tracking location on a cellphone is pretty trivial anyway, since you're continually connecting to cell towers it's not hard to place where you are/where you are going, generally. I believe there was a study of this from some politician in germany recently.

Re:I wonder which government

[Anonymous Coward]

It is interesting in light of the State of Michigan's new practice of slurping data from cell phones.

Re:I wonder which government

[Applekid]

Exactly. They didn't add it on request of any government: they added it first and then shopped it around for favors. I wonder if Jobs presented it as "one more thing..." when asking for patent favors from the US or extra security around the factories from the Chinese.

Re:I wonder which government

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget the GPS chips in smart phones this days.

Re:I wonder which government

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't need a government to tell them to do this. They will happily do it for advertisement purposes alone.

Re:I wonder which government

[Wild_dog!]

I see from the photo that they have the thing hooked to a phone by a wire. And the article says something about the officers asking for people to give them their phones. I suppose if you say no to the request then they would not be able to slurp data off of your phone without a court order.

I don't see where they can slurp data off of your phone behind a persons back.
Am I missing something?

Re:I wonder which government

[cusco]

If there isn't now, I'd bet there will soon be a Bluetooth implementation of it.

Re:I wonder which government

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder which government asked them to do that, oh yeah ALL of them...

You speak as if there is more then one government. the right hand is connected to the left, never forget that. :)

Re:I wonder which government

[brkello]

Why would Apple be immune from government conspiracy theories?
 
Oh right, this is Slashdot. You only take off your tin foil hats when you fanboi for Apple.

Re:I wonder which government

[Dare nMc]

I suppose if you say no to the request then they would not be able to slurp data off of your phone without a court order.

It appears the ACLU asked the department to confirm that was the rule, they wont. I have been pulled over for 10 MPH over the speed-limit, and had my car searched, items taken, and my pockets cleaned out without any permission (other than I opened my door to get out when the officer asked me to.) When asked, the officers response was more or less, "so sue me." but I can't they were protected by a superior ruling from a judge that no warrant was required, because they first saw a "weapon" (softball bat well out of my reach). The extent of reaction I had available, was I could get the items excluded with the help of a lawyer from court (but the charges were dropped immediately after I requested a jury trial, no items were ever returned to me.)
Basically you will know you lost control of your cell phone, you wont see that he opened up the plastic bag your items went into, and slurped all from your phone. You will have no proof to do any legal recourse... (FYI my case was one where I had the same first and last name of a convicted felon this officer had previously had interactions with, even though the other was 2' shorter, and 100pounds lighter than me.)

Re:I wonder which government

[dissy]

It's mainly because the government would have no use for this.

If you have ANY cell phone, the cellular company itself logs where you are using this method. All of them. For all phones. All of the time.

The government goes to the cell companies to get that data. They have no need to get it from your home computer or the phone itself, especially so when they are guaranteed the end user couldn't possibly muck with the data stored at the phone company server, as well as being guaranteed you will not notice them collecting the data. You would likely notice your cell phone or home computer being mucked with, and you knowing they are looking at that data is not in their best interest.

Re:I wonder which government

[Wild_dog!]

So did you sue him?

Part of the problem is that nobody every does sue.
Dare nMc:
Did you make yourself a pain in the butt to get your stuff back?

That needs to happen too.

4 Arabic friends of mine were in New Orleans and pulled over late at night. The police started to give them some run around and insisted they all get out of the car and open their trunk etc. This went on for a bit until my friend stated that he went to Tulane Law and demanded to get all of their badge numbers. At which point the officers said, thank you for your trouble and have a good night.

If there isn't really a good reason behind the officers actions then it is up to the citizen to stand up for his/her rights and pursue them. Not doing so gets you nowhere and leads to the kind of abuses you suffered.

Re:I wonder which government

[bankman]

Here's the data from politician Malte Spitz: http://www.zeit.de/datenschutz/malte-spitz-data-retention

Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[schwit1]

Tracking people's whereabouts is truly evil. Wait until the divorce lawyers start subpoena them for location data to help their clients.

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[Anonymous Coward]

No need. This doesn't go to Apple servers, but is in the iPhone's DB and is backed up to the computer it syncs with. If a spouse has access to the computer the iPhone syncs with, then they have this data. The link is to a handy tool that'll visualize the iPhone user's movements.

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone has a right to cheat. Well secretly. I wish I got mod points to mod you up.

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[Anonymous Coward]

Except when party in the divorce borrows the spouse's phone and takes it on a tour of a red light district, then a hotel for an hour. Then in court, "Well it's your phone isn't it?" Obviously you picked up a hooker and went to a hotel.

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[whiteboy86]

Good news for Google anyway, it is within the "Application Data/Apple .." folder on Windows, Chrome should access it easily.

/s

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[_0xd0ad]

The ends don't justify the means.

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[hoggoth]

The moral is: Turn off your iPhone before entering the Champagne Room!

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[Runaway1956]

Horse shit. Spying is spying, no matter that your target may be as sleazy as you are. Next, you'll be suggesting that a crooked cop should get off, because he's less of a criminal than the average criminal, or some other crazy nonsense.

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[Anonymous Coward]

Corrupt the file with interesting places and journeys between those places. I'll leave the rest to imagination ;-)

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[Anonymous Coward]

But they can already do that from the phone company... Even PI agencies have access to that if the account holder agrees.

The government has that feature in real time with less than a warrant. Pretty much all the "scary" people have that info or could get it with a hack or a badge.. That it's actually on the phone doesn't really matter.

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[pclminion]

Imagine that, somebody might subpoena you for evidence relevant to a legal dispute! Shocker!

A subpoena is a legal process and is not an invasion of your privacy. If you don't want it coming up in a court room, do not do it, say it, or write it down somewhere. Is this hard to grasp?

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[jafac]

Probably the most justified use of such technology, and the most practically useless, given the state of no-fault-divorce laws. If you're married, and your spouse is cheating with a dozen other people all over town, in most states, that doesn't mean jack shit at your divorce trial. Even if they bring videos for the judge to watch and enjoy.

It might reflect on parental fitness in a custody hearing, but that actually depends entirely on whether one has a decent lawyer. Seriously.

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[twollamalove]

Imagine that, somebody might subpoena you for evidence relevant to a legal dispute! Shocker!

A subpoena is a legal process and is not an invasion of your privacy. If you don't want it coming up in a court room, do not do it, say it, or write it down somewhere. Is this hard to grasp?

You know this is a good point, legally speaking. The way around that rule is the same as it always has been. Don't save incriminating evidence and plead the fifth. We're now living in an America where the average citizen is a criminal throughout his or her life, without always knowing it. It is only prudent to avoid storing information about yourself which need not be stored. And, we as consumers and free persons have a right to demand that we are in control. That we say if a device we buy can track us. He's just highlighting one of the many problems raised with being tracked without consent by using a device which does not advertise this behavior. And, you are giving a good booster to his argument. Your location can be obtained via subpoena and you didn't even know it was being collected. That is now true of every iPhone owner.

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[Anonymous Coward]

I see you post on /. Known for violating copyright (Church of Scientology), anti-DRM (DVD deCSS), and piracy (published PS3 keys).

By visiting the site, you either pay for /. as a subscriber. Or you support the site via ads. Furthermore, you sometimes at least hide this fact by try to post anonymously, so you probably don't want to be held accountable for your words. I bet you even clear your browser cache, a clear destruction of evidence.

Now, in the hypothetical where it is not unforeseen that there be children involved, none of this may not be illegal per se, but you are a poor example to be a parent and expect to be screwed in a civil legal proceeding such as divorce. I would expect sole custody to be given to your soon to be ex-spouse and your alimony raised. Tough. You're a man. Pay up.

What a shock. Pathetic individual that you are, trying to hide the fact of your immoral and possibly-illegal-but-we-can't-provie-it-except-via-guilt-by-association. Doesn't matter, you're a nerd, a loner, and you suck. You have no rights. Good bye. Screw you. You were afforded a shitty legal process, and where you were willing to screw others over to afford your sense of legality trumps privacy and personal protections. Oh well. Tough.

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[adtifyj]

Imagine that, somebody might subpoena you for evidence relevant to a legal dispute! Shocker! A subpoena is a legal process and is not an invasion of your privacy. If you don't want it coming up in a court room, do not do it, say it, or write it down somewhere. Is this hard to grasp?

I see you're faith in lawyers and the legal system has yet to be tested in court.

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[TapeCutter]

The person doing the cheating is the only one doing evil in that case.

No, the evil is a legal system that does not adhere to no-fault divorce principles. Such a system forces both parties to conduct a witch hunt if they want to retain their share of the assets, and when you look for evil you will inevitably find it. Aside from divorce laws, if trust has dropped so low that a person wants to hire someone to snoop on their partner, then they should save their money and simply walk away because the relationship is already dead.

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[Anonymous Coward]

But it this case, Apple users aren't even being made aware that their devices are covertly "writing it down." How are they supposed to defend against something like that?

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that *you* didn't write it down. Your iPhone did, without asking you, thereby exposing you to risk you didn't choose. Is *that* so hard to grasp?

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[AmiMoJo]

The point is that people should not be subject to surveillance all the time. Yes, it might help catch the odd criminal or get someone their divorce but that doesn't excuse systematically spying on a large number of innocent people.

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[blivit42]

A subpoena is a legal process and is not an invasion of your privacy. If you don't want it coming up in a court room, do not do it, say it, or write it down somewhere. Is this hard to grasp?

This is why we are upset at Apple. They should not be writing it down somewhere. While the subpoena itself may not be considered an invasion of privacy, the act of Apple recording your location (which is now being subpoenaed) most certainly is. Is this hard to grasp?

Re:Much worse than Google's WiFi tracking

[juasko]

Frist they are not tracking.
Secondly they are logging.

Different things.

iPhone 5

[Anonymous Coward]

I get it! This way they can hunt down the iPhone 5 that finds its way into the wild...

Re:iPhone 5

[afex]

To be honest, this is actually sort of awesome - tons of people spend LOTS of time and money hacking together things that do this for you (look on hackaday.com for GPS based logging crap).

in summary -
the technology? awesome!
not ever picking (or even SEEING) this as an option? probably not ok.

Re:Gotta love it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Look again. There is no link to upload anything only a link to download the application.

Mac fanboys

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't wait to see how the fanboys rationalize this one.

Re:Mac fanboys

[Anonymous Coward]

I, for one, have nothing to hide and find this data highly interesting and potentially useful.

Re:Mac fanboys

[Anonymous Coward]

Well since an iPad doesn't have a GPS I don't see how it is logging your coordinates. And since not all models have a cell chip, then best guess would be based on WiFi net accessed. So, story sounds bogus.

Re:Mac fanboys

[Anonymous Coward]

Props to you sir. There is nothing like a true honest fan.

Wanna be my new pet fanboy?

Re:Mac fanboys

[Cimexus]

iPad WiFi only models don't have a GPS chip. The iPad 3G models do.

Re:Mac fanboys

[Cimexus]

Well it certainly sounds bad if you just read the headline, but let's think though this. It seems that the phone tracks the location of the cell towers it's been connected to in a file on the device. The data is not sent anywhere, it's just living in a file. That file then gets copied to your machine every time you do a sync (since a full backup of the phone is also made at the same time).

So the question comes down to: what's the purpose of the file? Does it exist for a legitimate reason? Or something more sinister? Since the file is never sent anywhere, it's hard to see how Apple directly benefit here. Perhaps it's actually just a location services cache file or something (designed to be consumed by any application that then relies on the location service), that doesn't ever get cleared for one reason or another.

Actually come to think of it, it's the CARRIERS that benefit from this data, not Apple. It's not storing your GPS location ... just the location of the cell towers you've hit. So it's giving, essentially, a map of network load caused by your phone. Aggregated with other phones, this would be pretty interesting information to a carrier, you'd think. Perhaps carriers wanted Apple to do this kind of logging? But again, since the data isn't sent to anyone, it's still hard to see how this could be useful for anything other than a legitimate reason related to the phone itself (e.g. caching your previous locations so that it can more quickly use AGPS to pinpoint you again).

Re:Mac fanboys

[FhnuZoag]

There's only one way to see if the data is sent somewhere: it's to monitor the iPhone's input and output over an extended period. To my knowledge, no one has done that. In other words, we simply do not know whether this data is sent anywhere - and there are absolutely zero protections against it being sent. However, the way the data is stored, and the way the data is connected per user instead of per phone (being migrated across if you switch phones), makes it seems like presuming that Apple is being totally clean with this is very very naive.

Re:Mac fanboys

[Cimexus]

True, but even if it was being sent to Apple, I don't think it's particularly useful to them. Remember - it's logging the location of the cell towers you hit, not YOUR actual location. Given that there's only one cell tower every couple of kilometres in most areas, this is not particularly 'high resolution' data.

I've used the tool linked in TFA to examine the data on my own iPhone and you couldn't really figure precisely out where I lived or worked from the data. Only the 'general area' (e.g. 'oh the northwestern suburbs of city X'). Your phone company logs this data too as a natural consequence of providing you with service, and frankly I don't trust my phone company any more or less than Apple.

Agreed that Apple should probably address this issue (explain what the file exists for, and perhaps patch it so that you can turn it off/expire the data after X days etc.) It's mildly concerning but not enough to worry me too much. If it were logging exact GPS-derived location on the other hand, rather than cell towers, that would be bad.

(PS. the data is only connected 'per user' insomuch as you can restore an iPhone backup taken from one phone, onto another phone, if you so desire. It's not specifically being linked to you or your Apple account ... it's just that you are restoring an image taken of one phone onto your next phone, which happens to include this file. The 'new phone' becomes the 'old phone'. You may actually be a completely different user ... though that's unlikely in practice, since who's gonna use someone else's backup to restore their phone?)

Re:Mac fanboys

[FhnuZoag]

Well, you aren't thinking with datamining. The cellular data is only the tip of the iceberg. Combine it with the wifi sniffing, and you can probably get things to a far greater level of accuracy. It'll take a bit of ingenuity to unify the data, but there's more than enough to establish e.g. if someone went out of their normal route to meet with someone at a certain time, or stuff like that.

Re:Mac fanboys

[binford2k]

Actually come to think of it, it's the CARRIERS that benefit from this data, not Apple. It's not storing your GPS location ... just the location of the cell towers you've hit. So it's giving, essentially, a map of network load caused by your phone. Aggregated with other phones, this would be pretty interesting information to a carrier, you'd think. Perhaps carriers wanted Apple to do this kind of logging? But again, since the data isn't sent to anyone, it's still hard to see how this could be useful for anything other than a legitimate reason related to the phone itself (e.g. caching your previous locations so that it can more quickly use AGPS to pinpoint you again).

Nice logic. Except that the carriers already know with great precision where you've been anyway. They run the towers you connect to, remember?

Re:Mac fanboys

[Carewolf]

Your position can be calculated from which cell-towers are nearby. This can only be done by the phone, the carrier already know which tower you are connected to, but doesn't know which other towers you _could_ connect to, only the phone knows that, and in this case it calculates your position from it and stores it. For whatever reason..

Re:Mac fanboys

[MikePikeFL]

It's using aGPS. iPad 3G will do this just fine.

Re:Mac fanboys

[Anonymous Coward]

Cell-tower positioning has been a widely-known technique for at least 15 years. Among others, there was a British company called Cambridge Positioning Systems that was one of the early developers. In an urban environment with many cell towers around, it is quite routine to achieve cell-only positioning accuracy within 100 metres.

Re:Mac fanboys

[Zenaku]

-1 Just Flat Wrong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking

Re:Mac fanboys

[CharlyFoxtrot]

The phone could use the data itself to make a map of towers you've used in the past, which gave the best connection and depending on the direction you are traveling when it should switch towers and what would be the best to switch to. Optimizing connection and battery by keeping a historical record of connections.

Re:Mac fanboys

[Ender_Wiggin]

Easy. The data is stored on a phone only I use, and is synced to a Mac only I use. If the government really wanted to figure out where I was going, they'd subpoena my credit card records and look at the previous destinations on my car GPS. I don't hear anyone complaining how Garmin stores that recent data too.

Re:Mac fanboys

[kevinNCSU]

I was under the impression there has been numerous monitoring of all the iPhones input/output to try to figure out why it was using up users' data plans even when not in use by them.

Re:Mac fanboys

[RichM]

Actually come to think of it, it's the CARRIERS that benefit from this data, not Apple. It's not storing your GPS location ... just the location of the cell towers you've hit

The carriers already have a log of this anyway, no matter which phone you use.

Re:Mac fanboys

[Carewolf]

This is exactly what I tried to explain, how is a wikipedia article about it proving me wrong?

One thing I might have been unclear on is that the carrier can also triangulate your position, but their accuracy is much smaller ~100m which is useless for knowning which road or house you are in. The phone can do the same in an urban setting and get an accuracy of within ~10m, in many early/cheap smart phones, this system is used instead of GPS. Not sure what the difference is but it might be that the phone can use data from all cell-towers, and the carrier only from their own.

Re:Mac fanboys

[Zenaku]

That is the thing I was referring to.

Re:Mac fanboys

[vijayiyer]

Let's see herea device I control that already knows my location because it's a sensor platform logs it. And it transfers it only to a computer I control. If I don't encrypt that file, and my computer is given to others, they can read it. Big deal. Is there nothing else on your computer or phone that's sensitive? Wouldn't the most basic of security practices be to keep your computer under your own control and not hand it out to others?
If there was evidence a location log was actually going to someone, then there would be something to talk about. Apple haters always seem to drum up a problem or conspiracy out of thin air. They'll speculate how Apple _could_ transmit the file somewhere - missing the point that Apple could transmit all your email to their servers, or your contact info, or really anything on any device. Same goes for any device manufacturer. At some point, it's just moronic - either you trust your device, or you don't. If you don't, you don't buy it.
I'd be more wary of trusting a device where the customer is an advertiser rather than the end user, but to each his own.

Re:Mac fanboys

[scot4875]

You really think that carriers are dependent on each customer logging their own position in able to know which towers they're attaching to?

--Jeremy

Re:Mac fanboys

[joh]

So the question comes down to: what's the purpose of the file? Does it exist for a legitimate reason? Or something more sinister? Since the file is never sent anywhere, it's hard to see how Apple directly benefit here.

http://markey.house.gov/docs/applemarkeybarton7-12-10.pdf

Page 6. Nothing new, really. And nothing evil either.

Re:Mac fanboys

[toriver]

This is the cell tower triangulation data used for the "A" part of "AGPS". Assisted GPS. Which can be accurate "enough" in some areas.

Re:Mac fanboys

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the FAQ. The iPhone triangulates your position using multiple nearby cells, and the extraction program intentionally, artificially removes the details:

"To make it less useful for snoops, the spatial and temporal accuracy of the data has been artificially reduced. You can only animate week-by-week even though the data is timed to the second, and if you zoom in you’ll see the points are constrained to a grid, so your exact location is not revealed. The underlying database has no such constraints, unfortunately."

The carriers already have this information from their end, this is a separate copy of the data. There's no evidence that the file is ever sent anywhere, but on the other hand there's no evidence that the file is never sent anywhere!

Re:Mac fanboys

[juasko]

Jepp

This file is used for what, caching maybe... my strong belive is that the phone reads this database to determine what iAds it supposed to show you. This is why it's not erased IMHO.

Appel just sends out some tags, we got an add for NewYork Area, or if you been in NewYork during last 6 months. If the phone finds this true, it downloads the specific iAd and shows it in your iAd enabled Applications.

This is my firm belief why the file exists and what it's main usage is meant for and why it's not erased. Sure some other minor usages may also be there.

What the FUCK, Apple?

[CelticWhisper]

What good reason could they have for pulling something like this? I know, I know, I'm not thinking creatively and/or cynically enough. Give the caffeine an hour or so.

This is why I'm quite happy with my N900. No carrier lockability, no Big Brother bullshit, and it's a better phone to boot. As the longtime owner of two Power Macs and a 4G iPod (you know, the kind that can run RockBox, that alternative firmware that you guys hate so much) I feel compelled to tell you, Apple, to get bent.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[countertrolling]

...no Big Brother bullshit...

Uh huh...

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[getNewNickName]

Stop, breath, think. Turn off location services...

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nokia has been logging cell ids since 1995.
Not as precise as GPS data, but as "evil".

Android is also doing it.

I guess they are all doing it.

And BTW:
Your provider is also logging your location.

So no news here at all.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[ThunderBird89]

Likewise with my Nexus S. I know it tracks itself, because I have joined Latitude and keep my GPS turned on, but I can opt out of Latitude and disable the GPS, so it can't track itself. And at least I own that device, unlike the iStuff, which I apparently only lease from Apple...

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

On any of these devices (iphone / nexus / etc) what makes you think the "disable GPS" actually disables the GPS?

How do you know it isn't like the "close door" button on an elevator?

All these devices have features that aren't there for the users and are there for law enforcement. You can't turn them off.

Who knows where the Eye of Steve falls in this range? The only way to be sure is a faraday cage for your phone, which probably won't help your reception (though you might not notice if you've got AT&T).

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[King InuYasha]

On any of these devices (iphone / nexus / etc) what makes you think the "disable GPS" actually disables the GPS?

How do you know it isn't like the "close door" button on an elevator?

All these devices have features that aren't there for the users and are there for law enforcement. You can't turn them off.

Who knows where the Eye of Steve falls in this range? The only way to be sure is a faraday cage for your phone, which probably won't help your reception (though you might not notice if you've got AT&T).

Well... I guess the source code for the Nexus phones would be good enough to let you know that it does what it says it does. Since most of iOS is closed source, we can't investigate it the same way as we can for a Nexus phone, which runs pure Google Android.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[ifrag]

I typically run mine with it off simply to conserve battery. However I do put it on when using navigation on maps. In this case I suppose there is still some kind of intermittent tracking file where the phone will disappear and reappear. Location services does have some useful purposes, so this is still annoying either way.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

...and a 4G iPod (you know, the kind that can run RockBox, that alternative firmware that you guys hate so much)...

I'm glad things like RockBox exist, but it's really too bad it sucks so badly. I tried it for a while, then went back to the regular iPod firmware, which doesn't suck.

iTunes, however, definitively does suck, so it is fortunate that I found Floola, so I no longer have to use iTunes for synching.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[joshhibschman]

Right, but then you get every app nagging you to "Turn On Location Services BLAH BLAH BLAH"

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Missing.Matter]

Location services serve a function. There still no good reason to log all of the data. This is not a solution.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Rary]

On any of these devices (iphone / nexus / etc) what makes you think the "disable GPS" actually disables the GPS?

How about the significant difference in battery usage between "GPS on" and "GPS off"? In the case of Android, there's also the source code itself.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[nstlgc]

This is good as long as someone points out that you should do it. The default, however, should be to have location services turned off, and give a big fat warning when you turn them on.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't work, it syncs against cell tower locations.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[BitZtream]

The source code only tells you what you're phone is doing if you actually compiled the source and put it on your phone yourself. Using someone elses precompiled binary build pretty much negates any usefulness the source itself offers as the binary may have been compiled with source other than what you are looking at.

The source is irrelevant unless you are compiling it yourself. You don't have any clue what source the binaries were compiled against unless YOU did the compiling.

Of course, if you REALLY want to be paranoid, you have to take into account that you really don't know what the compiler is doing either and IT could be sneaking something in ...

But ... all the tin foil hat stuff aside, unless you compiled ALL of the code running on your phone yourself, all you can do is speculate about what it actually does based on a copy of the source you think it was built from, you truly don't know anything.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

What good reason could they have for pulling something like this? I know, I know, I'm not thinking creatively and/or cynically enough.

Building a geolocation database so they don't have to pay to use Google's.

Your call as to whether this is more or less frightening than using Google's.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[wiredog]

This.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

The phone is logging it and syncing it to the computer?

The providers doesn't log it either unless you use the phone. When you use the phone they need to register the cell to know where to send, you know, the call.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[iluvcapra]

In the case of Android, there's also the source code itself.

Unless you compiled the code yourself, or are running a binary signed by someone in trust, having some source code that purports to be what you're running is no defense, and the Android vendors are at liberty to add this kind of behavior if it suits them, and they are under no requirement to publish the source of their changes.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

Breathe?

Breath is what comes out when you breathe.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[yodleboy]

are you serious? we're still holding it wrong too, aren't we? why should i have to turn off a useful function because some nosy company with no need for this information is collecting it? why is the fault never with Apple? pathetic. so glad i ditched my iPhone, now if i can get my wife to do the same.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

What good reason could they have for pulling something like this?

To pre-fetch and cache map data for places you frequently visit? Google Maps 5.0 for Android is doing just that, presumably using a similar cache of your whereabouts. Anyone care to verify this?

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[King InuYasha]

There's always packet sniffing, and numerous other techniques for the truly paranoid to figure out what is being sent and received on an Android device. The Nexus line just so happens to be the easiest to ensure nothing untoward is going on...

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[peppepz]

In the case of Android, there's also the source code itself.

The source code of the Android platform only matches a fraction of the binary code running on an average Android phone. Not only the phone's application processor (the one running Linux) runs plenty of binary-only, manufacturer-provided private code, but above all, typical Android phones (e.g. those running on Qualcomm's msm architecture) have a lower level, more privileged "baseband" CPU which boots first, is in charge of network interaction and security features, is inaccessible by the less privileged application processor that can only interact with it through IPC entry points (even when the application processor is "rooted"), and runs an exotic, closed, secured realtime operating system different from Linux and whose operation is beyond direct control by the phone's user.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty sure this uses cell tower triangulation, so turning off location services won't do you any good.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Rary]

I'm aware of Thompson's essay on the subject, and also the ramifications of it, which is to say that you actually can't trust any code, ever, as to do so would mean compiling it with a compiler that you wrote, and compiling that with a compiler you wrote, and compiling that with... (ad nauseum). And that's not even to mention the whole issue of trusting the hardware itself (which you likely didn't build).

However, insofar as source code can be trusted, which is to say that it can at least be partially trusted, or at least more trusted than a binary with no available source code, then at least the source to (some of) Android is available. And that fact, combined with the noticeable difference in battery usage, suggests that the system can be at least somewhat trusted to actually turn off the GPS when it claims that it has done so.

There are no guarantees in this world, but of all the things that can keep me up at night worrying, whether or not my phone actually does turn off its GPS when it tells me it has is not high on my worry list.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

Location services serve a function. There still no good reason to log all of the data. This is not a solution.

One rational reason I can think of is that Apple is a retail seller. If they are harvesting this information, which there is no evidence of, it could tell them where to put their stores, or where unsaturated markets may exist.

If Apple was as morally corrupt as the haters claim, what's stopping them from harvesting entire address books and aggressively marketing to the listings they could collect? I don't see them doing that for no other reason than that they don't need to and haven't needed to: it appears their plan of creating premium products and superior user experience is working all by itself.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[iluvcapra]

I'm aware of Thompson's essay on the subject

Then why'd you even mention source code? And how does this conclusion differentiate any phone from any other?

However, insofar as source code can be trusted, which is to say that it can at least be partially trusted, or at least more trusted than a binary with no available source code

Uh, how? Do the lines that are open source rub off magical user-self-interest pixie dust on the lines that aren't? What's going on here is typical lazy, muddle-headed open source fanboyism: yes, this code isn't trustable and I don't know what it does, but the brand name it's sold under claims to be open source, even when it isn't, and I think Google is just super, even though I bought my phone from someone else and they just silkscreened Google's logo on the back, so it should get brownie points!

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Rary]

Wow, you've totally made my day! I've never been called an "open source fanboy" before (I'm typing this on a Windows Server 2008 box that's currently running Firefox, Internet Explorer, Outlook, Eclipse, Windows Explorer, Microsoft Word, SQL Server Management Studio, and Visual Studio— I guess two open source apps out of eight on a closed-source OS is good enough for a "fanboy"). Thanks!

Then why'd you even mention source code? And how does this conclusion differentiate any phone from any other?

Well, it was kind of an afterthought, to be honest. You can't know for sure that the source code actually matches the binary, but real world experience suggests that most of the time, it does. Therefore, seeing the source code provides a certain (though nowhere near absolute) level of trustworthiness.

Of course, the real point of my post was simply that worrying about whether or not your phone is actually doing what it claims to do when you shut off the GPS is a bit too tin-foil-hat for my tastes. The battery usage alone should be a strong (although, again, not absolute) indicator of that. If the AC wants to stay awake worrying that his phone is tracking him, and if you want to stay awake worrying about the dangers lurking in open source software (although, those same dangers are at least as likely in closed source software, so I wonder why you use any software at all), then so be it. I'm just going to enjoy my new-found fanboy status. :)

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[sl3xd]

I hate to tell you this: Your N900 isn't immune to this particular issue. It's a cell phone, so you've got the same problem.

The information stored on the iPhone is not based on GPS data. Looking at the data reported, it's clearly based on cell towers. Every mobile phone everywhere reports this data to the network provider - at least once a minute, no less. Without the network provider being able to track you, mobile networks can not work - they have to know what tower to route the data through.

That Apple is keeping a log is somewhat interesting - but there are a few questions that aren't answered:
1.) Is Apple collecting the data from computers after it's synced? (I doubt it, but who knows?)
2.) Are (iPhone) apps able to access the data on the phone? Unlike Android (which has no ability to "reject" apps, Apple has been pretty strict about what kinds of data apps have access to - especially location data; it's even in the terms of the app developer license.

Knowing that the network provider has access to the location of cell phone (and timestamps for said location) should scare you. It's also important to realize that it's not just the iPhone, not just Android, not even just smartphones - it's every cell phone that's turned on and connected to the network.

It's nice, though also perverted in a way for you to see the information on your own phone - it's like knowing what the NSA has on file about you... creepy, but it's still interesting.

There's a point to the "Turn off phone, remove battery" procedure that Hans Reiser used after killing his wife. Every cellular phone everywhere reports its location constantly. Richard Stallman even listed this as one reason he doesn't carry/use a cell phone - the cell network provider always knows your position.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you know it isn't like the "close door" button on an elevator?

Many elevators have working close buttons, so that probably isn't a good simile.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[scubamage]

Someone steals your phone. The cell phone company already knows the ESN, even if it uses a different SIM card. So, they look at the data, track the criminal, and report to authorities. That's about the best I've gotten. It also strikes me as interesting that this data is possible solely from the ESN, and why companies don't track stolen cell phones more often. The damn things are homing devices, why the hell are they so easy to steal?

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[vijayiyer]

The company isn't collecting it (at least not per the article), the device is. It hasn't been shown to be transmitted anywhere at all. Presumably the device is in your own possession. That's why the "fault" isn't with Apple.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[astrosmash]

It's a location cache.

When Maps (or any other app) requests your current location, the iPhone is able to provide it almost immediately because of this cache, without hitting the network or GPS. It's very convenient.

If your privacy is a concern, encrypt your backups (it's just a checkmark in iTunes) and turn off location services (it's just a switch in the iPhone settings).

And if you're *really* concerned about your privacy, don't use a cell phone, because your carrier also keeps a log of where you've been and will turn that information to authorities.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[mjwx]

Likewise with my Nexus S. I know it tracks itself, because I have joined Latitude and keep my GPS turned on, but I can opt out of Latitude and disable the GPS, so it can't track itself. And at least I own that device, unlike the iStuff, which I apparently only lease from Apple...

In fact, you have to expressly opt in to lattitude by installing the latitude application. I haven't not because I fear the Google (they are at least honest about why they collect my data) but simply because I dont use it.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Atryn]

It's a location cache. When Maps (or any other app) requests your current location, the iPhone is able to provide it almost immediately because of this cache, without hitting the network or GPS. It's very convenient.

A "location cache" that was being used to speed up requests for "current location" wouldn't need to store a year's worth of location history.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[astrosmash]

It's a cache of cell tower locations. The reasonable thing to do is limit that cache by size, but there just aren't that many cell towers. What size limit would you use?

iOS also caches wifi locations. This is a much larger dataset and is routinely flushed to make space for new data.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not worried about if my phone is tracking me. I *know* it is tracking me. The information is clearly being gathered at least by the carriers, and possibly by every enterprise WiFi network I walk past.

As far as GPS goes -- in order to be E911 compliant, this is what the FCC says you must do (if you're a carrier):

Phase II E911 rules require wireless service providers to provide more precise location information to PSAPs; specifically, the latitude and longitude of the caller. This information must be accurate to within 50 to 300 meters depending upon the type of location technology used.

So is your GPS off when you think it is off? I don't know, but how well can the carriers comply with this phase II mandate if it is off? 300 meters is pretty big, but a hell of a lot smaller than what a single cell tower covers, and it takes more than a few seconds to get a GPS lock sometimes, so *I* at least would assume that some subset of GPS is running all the time so that my phone can report my location when I call 911.

Regardless -- the cat's out of the bag. Live with it. But don't assume your device is doing what it is telling you its doing, or that your device is yours and operating in your best interests.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[juasko]

The Apples is not loggin GPS data either. Best accuracy so far is within a few hundred meters. An other reacercher found faults large nough to find this not even logging the correct state he was in.

If you ever traveled between california and nevada, you know what long distance road your up to. This was what he found. The iPhone had logged him to Nevada, while he still haven't been even close.

Just so u know, i'm a fin, i guess u too.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[juasko]

The operators are logging you constantly, wether you use the phone or not. Some nokias are even rumored to have a backdoor possibility to turn it on remotely. That would be over gsm.

But the authorities just need an warrant and they get your triangulated info from the operators. And remember that info is extremely precise compared to triangulation on the phone. They know the exact location of their towers. The phone does not.

1 Tower gives the quite precise distance to your phone from the tower, but not direction.
2 Towers gives 2 possible points of your location, that is distance from the towers in two possible directions, with extreme precision.
3 Towers gives one point with precise position of your whereabouts. More towers adds more precision.

GPS works the same way, just that i's not as precise as 3 gsm towers.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[juasko]

ignorant clod... there is an app on iOS devices, from Apple called Settings.

You know it's Apple so it's even more user friendly.

Re:What the FUCK, Apple?

[speculatrix]

with latitude you can also choose whether you share the best location or simply which city you are in.

wow

[indecks]

I got no problem with that *turns off phone an hides*

Re:wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Make sure you remove the battery, too. Oh, wait. Nevermind.

we're sooo fucked

[Massacrifice]

Still surprises me how everybody accepts that kind of cryptototalitarian shit while saying while saying "OMG SHINY APPS!!!". Next thing you know, the economy is down for good, the chinese take over, then nobody cant say crap while they get painfully raped up their sociopolitical collectives arses. Fascism? There's an app for that!

Re:we're sooo fucked

[Anonymous Coward]

Next thing you know, the economy is down for good, the chinese take over, then nobody cant say crap while they get painfully raped up their sociopolitical collectives arses.

And having an iPhone causes that, huh? Get over yourself, geek filth.

Re:we're sooo fucked

[LowG1974]

"OMG SHINY APPS!!!". Next thing you know, the economy is down for good, the chinese take over...

Oh, is that why the characters in the Firefly 'verse speak Chinese and use the word "shiny" all the time? That explains a LOT!!

Re:we're sooo fucked

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir are a paranoid idiot.

Re:we're sooo fucked

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't "speak Chinese", they appear to use broken Mandarin words occasionally.

So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[unassimilatible]

So you're telling me if someone physically steals my phone or computer, and is able to break the passwords, they can see private info about me? NFW!

I assure you all that if someone were to do that, I'd have a lot more to worry about than my PC or phone giving up my travel habits.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

You got it all wrong, bucko. Now anyone who has apple in their pocket (or apple themselves) can track your whereabouts. And find you. Enemy of the state much?

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

Also if you bring your phone to a service center.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[RockoW]

There is no need to know the password... files are not encrypted. If they got your iphone just jailbreak it or if they stole your pc just look through your files.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[SJ2000]

Or if you're subject to Discovery or a subpoena.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[Cimexus]

iPhone backups are (optionally) encrypted by iTunes when they are made.

The files on the phone though, yeah, just need a jailbreak there.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[tgd]

With what key?

Oh, yeah, a key that is sitting on that machine.

So really, it obfuscated the backup, relying on security through obscurity.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[djdanlib]

Nobody wants your information until it suddenly gains a hint of being interesting or valuable. Run-of-the-mill thieves are far more likely to pawn your stuff than to do forensics or poke around in all your files.

Posting a sentence like your second one might be a bad idea ;)

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[Cimexus]

Sorry, I'm not much of an expert on encryption. Are you saying the iPhone backups can be decrypted without knowledge of the password that the user has to set in order to enable encryption? I use a 12-digit password with a mix of uppercase, lowercase and numbers, and no dictionary words, so I would have thought that was fairly decent security. I thought it needed both the key (stored on the machine) AND the password to decrypt. Am I mistaken?

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

God you are dumb. Truly seriously stupid. Please do not breed. "Apple has made it possible for almost anybody – a jealous spouse, a private detective – with access to your phone or computer to get detailed information about where you've been," said Pete Warden, one of the researchers." - The fucking article.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[fermion]

Collecting data like this for no apparent reason is a concern. Many security issue come about when someone decides to do something just for fun. For instance, at some point someone decided to just run active content from untrusted servers because it made the user experience more transparent. Bad idea. Someone decides to keep email forever just because they can, not having a program to destroy old email that could be actionable. Bad idea.

For a properly protected computer, meaning that the user account is encrypted, this is likely not a huge issue. It is a good idea to encrypt the iPhone backup. For most of us when out computers or phones get stolen they will be wiped to insure that any tracking software we have on them will be erased. This is especially true for the iPhone. For those who are running around on someone, text messages, browsers histories, and call logs are likely going to be more incriminating. Anyone who runs around and does not have a throwaway cell phone for discrete communications has issues beyond what is the log.

Without seeing a log it is hard to know what the actual security implications are. The FAQ says that it is cell tower, not gps, so that does not give a precise location. There is no mention of how the data is logged. It is periodic or only when on uses the phone. If it only when the phone is used, then it would be reasonable to assume this is a diagnostic file to help with call quality. Even so, Apple should not have exposed users to such a privacy leak, and there is not reason to keep long term information, though there is not indication of how long data is kept.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[iluvcapra]

Derp. The key that encrypts an iPhone backup isn't on the system; you have the option to keep it in your user Keychain, but that's encrypted by your login password.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

Any computer you synchronize to will receive this file as well.

I wonder how much Apple is selling all of our gps data for, assuming they are pulling the files (not a big assumption).

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

Rocco looks like the -1 Troll man.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[Duradin]

Unlike that cruel Apple, Google requires only that you kneel.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[Qwavel]

They aren't just recording that data for fun - it gets sent to Apple, anonymized, and then sold. That is all spelled out in the EULA and was widely reported last Spring when the change was made.

Thing is, Apple users such as yourself didn't care, so the story died. And I can understand your argument - in some ways who cares.

But let's imagine that Google did this. The controversy, paranoia (the data is being given to the CIA and to aliens), and lawsuits would go on for years.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[ptbarnett]

I managed to find the data on my Windows laptop, thanks to a suggestion from another poster. By searching for the string "WifiLocation", I was able to identify the SQLite database that contains the data. That DB also has a CellLocation table.

The WifiLocation table has a entry for every MAC address, presumably of the WiFi access point that it found. And there's also a timestamp, latitude, and longitude. The timestamps are bunched, so I'm not sure how accurate it may be.

I already had a script that built a Google map with markers at designated points (by lat/long). I modified that to dump the contents of either the cell or wifi location tables. Both provide a map of where I've been in the past year or so. The cell location map is actually a better representation, although it has fewer data points. I presume it's because the iPhone only logs WiFi access points when it tries to use the WiFi location-assist. By filtering the WiFi datapoints to ones that were only at least 1 mile from the others, I reduced about 15,000 rows to about 400 rows.

Here's the interesting part: it's logging both cell phone tower locations and WiFi locations that are NEAR where I have been, but up to a block or two away (in the case of Wifi) or several miles (in the case of cell towers). I suspect that the iPhone is not recording YOUR location, but is instead recording the known location of the MAC or cell phone tower. Where would it get this? In the past, Apple used Skyhook wireless to derive location from WiFi MAC addresses. I don't know if they still use it.

I suspect that this SQLite database is nothing more than a localized cache, to be used for assisted GPS. When you first launch the Google Maps app, you'll notice it start with an accuracy radius that is about the size of a cell phone tower's footprint. Then the circle gets smaller, as it first uses WiFi to refine the position, and then finally lock on to multiple GPS satellites.

The location of these WiFi access points and cell base stations are in an online database. Apple is probably just storing the location on your phone the first time that you happen to "hear" that particular transmitter, after querying the database over your 'Net connection. Then, the next time your phone needs to use that MAC address or cell station ID to determine your location, it already has it in your local cache.

The WiFi location cache must be seeded with one location: The corner of Berkley Way and Oxford St, on the edge of the UC Berkeley campus. I've never been there, but it's in my WifiLocation table.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[vijayiyer]

They could do that before they logged this to a file. They could transmit it live encrypted it in a way you'd never know. While they're at it, they could transmit all your email, contacts, and plenty of other sensitive data.
To use _any_ device, you have to trust the manufacturer. Or, at the very least, have no internet connection and remain in a faraday cage, kind of like top secret cleared facilities.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

By the time you receive a subpoena for this your carrier will have already received and answered a subpoena about the time and place of the cell antennas that were connected to the devices attached to your account.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[cmk1523]

See my post below titled "Easy Windows directions"

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

Passwords have a legitimate, useful to me (the user) reason to reside on my phone. This timestamped location history doesn't. That's the significant difference.

Re:So my phone tracks itself, big deal

[niftymitch]

And short term temp access at that.
The jealous spouse borrows the phone downloads the data
and delivers it to her attorney. More sinister is that it is
a simple data base and an application could modify the data
placing the poor schlep anyplace the bad boys want
him to be.

breaking news?

[apostrophesemicolon]

how are they - scratch that, we - finding out about this just now? and do the iDevices still able to report back their location even when GPS is turned off? Curious.

Re:breaking news?

[FhnuZoag]

Yes. It uses cell triangulation, so it's still tracking with GPS switched off. The researchers' website has a very informative FAQ. Also, as their app illustrates, with this data on the phone, *any* iphone or ipad app has access to this, not just Apple themselves. It's a privacy nightmare.

Re:breaking news?

[TaoPhoenix]

Yeah, this is the part that bothers me too - did the techies "trust & ignore" Apple for an entire year believing that Apple was being faddish but that's all?

I'm definitely courting the trolls on this one, but for that "cheating spouse" angle, do they have the Accelerometer data too?

Re:breaking news?

[Anonymous Coward]

Their app works on a hacked phone which would have access to the full device. Another reason I'm glad I don't jailbreak.

Further, last time I checked anytime you leave your phone on, you are subject to location through tower triangulation. You buy a cell phone, you give up your right to privacy, some of us are just a little less paranoid about it than others.

Re:breaking news?

[Raffaello]

Their app works on a plain vanilla Mac which has ever synced with a plain vanilla iPhone, no jailbreaking required.

Re:breaking news?

[BasilBrush]

We're not just finding out about it now. It's old news, repackaged with a fun little app to examine the data.

http://apple.slashdot.org/story/10/07/20/0250203/Apple-Lays-Out-Location-Collection-Policies

Re:breaking news?

[ColdWetDog]

I'm definitely courting the trolls on this one, but for that "cheating spouse" angle, do they have the Accelerometer data too?

You sir, have some seriously weird sexual peccadilloes - seeking out conjugal visits with large, not particularly sexy, imaginary creatures while wearing your iPhone during the act.

Do.Not.Want.

Re:breaking news?

[omnichad]

Actually, I'm not sure that the file is in an area that's unprotected on the iphone itself. The app linked to is a Mac OS X app that analyzes your computer's backup of that same file.

Evil? Really?

[unassimilatible]

Evil? Then what word do we we use for the Einsatzgruppen and serial killers?

Let's put away the hyperbole before the language no longer means anything, K?

Re:Evil? Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

The same word.

Re:Evil? Really?

[MacGyver2210]

There are varying degrees of many things, of which many subsets can be constructed.

Apple is a Tier-2 evil. They are more evil than the neighborhood bully, but they are less evil than...say, Hitler.

Just like evil, there are subsets of happy.

Think about "I just got an 'attaboy' from my boss" happy versus "I just got with this super-hot girl I've been into for a long time" happy.

Re:Evil? Really?

[Runaway1956]

Agreed. Stop the hyperbole. Plain old bole would be more than enough here . . .

Re:Evil? Really?

[i_approve_this_msg]

Just like there are subsets of tall, small, white, round, up, los angeles. I guess the GP's native language is not english.

Re:Evil? Really?

[Unkyjar]

But bole only work in 3 dimensions, hyperbole works in n dimensions.

Re:Evil? Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

how about "really evil", or "dick dastardly evil"

Re:Evil? Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Think about "I just got an 'attaboy' from my boss" happy versus "I just got with this super-hot girl I've been into for a long time" happy.

Your analogy falls flat when you consider THIS IS /.

Re:Evil? Really?

[FrootLoops]

but they are less evil than...say, Hitler.

Hey, Godwin's law.

Re:Evil? Really?

[shutdown -p now]

Evil? Then what word do we we use for the Einsatzgruppen and serial killers?

Personally, I use the "murdered kilokittens" scale. On that, Apple is somewhere around 5, while Einzatsgruppen would be 2K or so. ~

Re:Evil? Really?

[stubob]

Too much hyperbole, not enough hypobole?

Re:Evil? Really?

[obarel]

I just hyperextended my elbow and now it's in another dimension!

Re:Evil? Really?

[CraftyJack]

Apple is a Tier-2 evil. They are more evil than the neighborhood bully, but they are less evil than...say, Hitler.

Not tiers, circles. Dante covered this already.

Re:Evil? Really?

[Archwyrm]

One murdered kilokittens is a tragedy, anything more is a statistic.

Re:Evil? Really?

[Archwyrm]

The term 'evil' as used in the current vernacular is by definition hyperbole. People do good and bad things, same as corporations. Even the aforementioned Hitler was nice to children and liked puppies, though clearly he did more bad than good. Once essentially a synonym of 'bad' or 'ill', the word's meaning has become an expression of imaginary duality.

FTW!!!!

[Cris CodeCruncher]

Why were the people who own these products not informed? (or why was the informing done within miles of legal jargon that is the user agreement?) I have a BIG problem with this as I believe that us Canadians still have some privacy laws left.

Re:FTW!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

No Canada is the worst for privacy, ever since the 1990s under the liberal government.

The liberals in the 1990s passed laws allowing the police to enter a home at any time if there is a registered firearm in that home. Police can also search friends, family, and the work place of the owner of that registered firearm.

Same liberal government passed laws which allow the police to search and seize any items they want with out providing reason for the search warrant for 90s days. All items seized are also kept for 90s days. if the police say they require more than 90s days, than they just ask for an extension.

In various cities in Canada, if someone picks up someone on the side of the street (friend, family, stranger) and the police sees this, they can under possibility of a crime to seize the car for 90 days, and arrest everyone in that car.

Banks willing hand over all information when requested by any member of a police service. This is part of another law passed by the liberals of the 1990s.

In Canada, if you are stopped and the police wants to perform a breath analyser on you, and you refuse even for religious reasons you are now guilty of crime.

All of this is done under the flag of public safety.

Re:FTW!!!!

[Kagetsuki]

They were, it's in the EULA - which you didn't read and hit "Agree" on.

Re:FTW!!!!

[Cris CodeCruncher]

hence the (or why was the informing done within miles of legal jargon that is the user agreement?)

The data is on your phone

[Anonymous Coward]

The headline is misleading. Apple is not logging your locations, your phone is. It would make sense to cry Big Brother if/when there's proof that the phone is sending the log to an Apple server, not now.

Re:The data is on your phone

[FhnuZoag]

It's impossible to determine where this data has been sent. Any app has access to it. Access to this file itself is not logged. It could be sitting on the hard drives of any number of app producers.

Re:The data is on your phone

[Cimexus]

Not only that, it's logging the locations of the CELL TOWERS you are hitting, not your exact GPS-derived location. Given that this would still allow someone to find the general areas you travel or live in, but hardly useful for pinpointing you.

Re:The data is on your phone

[Anonymous Coward]

It's impossible to determine where this data has been sent. Any app has access to it. Access to this file itself is not logged. It could be sitting on the hard drives of any number of app producers.

I know right!! I'm taking a hammer to mine as soon as I get home.

Osama

[kayumi]

You got it all wrong. The idea was to offer free iXXX to Osama & friends and then use the new iCatchYou app to finish them off. Now the cat's out of the bag and they have to go back to the drawing board.

Yeah. soo what?

[BigMac7400]

What a shocking news.... How do you thing Find my iPhone service is working?

Apple is not logging. Your phone is logging.

[Anonymous Coward]

The phone logs the data for some reason.
This is then backed up when the phone is backed up.
It is never sent to Apple.

Really.
I mean, there are millions of things on the iPhone that checks your position. It gets embedded in photos. It gets uploaded to somewhere whenever you start the App you use to order pizza or check phone-directory.

Also, if Apple wanted to find you they would just send a "find my iPhone" ping to the phone.

This is a local list saved to the phone only (and then backed up).

It would be nice to know why it is there, but it does not really worry or surprise me.

Re:Apple is not logging. Your phone is logging.

[kenshin33]

True, but There is a feature that the iphone has that android doesn;t it is a per application white list for the access of location service .... with this file sitting in the phone's memory. ANY application whether on or off that white list has access to it. Besides ... if the phone wants to log it should ask the owner if it's Ok with them to do that or at least inform them of that !!! As someone stated above ... it's a privacy nightmare/fiasco.

Re:Apple is not logging. Your phone is logging.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is not logging? Who makes this iphone?

Re:Apple is not logging. Your phone is logging.

[edxwelch]

> It is never sent to Apple.
In all fairness you don't really know that. Nobody has done a detailed analysis of the data sent from iPhone.

Re:Apple is not logging. Your phone is logging.

[BasilBrush]

That's not true. Applications only have access to their own data directories*. Access to system data, for example the Address Book, can only be done if Apple have supplied a public API for doing so. Applications can't just read any system file.

(* There is an exception to this where IIRC a particular company can share a UID for multiple apps, such that those apps have access to each other's data. But that still doesn't allow access to system data files.)

Re:Apple is not logging. Your phone is logging.

[Idbar]

Yes, but shouldn't this behavior be an "opt-in" rather than an "opt-out" type?

I know it can bring great features such as recovering your stolen phone. But that doesn't mean your phone should be tracking that information and storing it anywhere.

Re:Apple is not logging. Your phone is logging.

[kenshin33]

True, I stand corrected. But that doesn't change the fact that it is not right to do so. The mere fact of the existence of that data can have deep implications. If it were an opt in functionality it would have been a feature. But unfortunately you have no say in it.

Re:Apple is not logging. Your phone is logging.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's there so the cops in Michigan have everything ready for them when they pull you over for speeding.

Re:Apple is not logging. Your phone is logging.

[sl3xd]

It appears to be location based on cell tower information.

So putting aside any discussion of Apple=evil, consider that the cell network provider knows the location of every device on its network without exception.

They have to, otherwise, they can't route the data to the right place. Cellular networks simply cannot work without knowing which tower to route the data to.

More often than not, there are multiple towers who can "see" the device, and the tower know the individual signal strengths - meaning they can locate you to within 100 M or so:

Recall that many Enhanced-911 systems use simple triangulation of cell towers & signal strengths to locate a phone.

So the lesson is that: If you don't like being tracked constantly, don't carry a cellular telephone.

The make/model is irrelevant.

Re:Apple is not logging. Your phone is logging.

[errandum]

This is not just about not wanting to be tracked by . It has time, dates and places I visit.

If someone stole your phone, they can find out where you live. They can find out what time you'll be there.

They can even assume with reasonable certainty where you'll be if they want to get to you again (human beings are creatures of habit).

This is extremely serious. Imagine a teenage girl losing their phone. This is stalker paradise material.

Re:Apple is not logging. Your phone is logging.

[Idbar]

It also appears to be downloaded to your computer everytime you synchronize your phone with your computer. While I see some need on the carriers to know the cell tower people is near to (and of course not necessarily saving/holding information about your patterns), I don't see the need of having a log of your whereabouts and sync those with your computer.

Re:Gotta love it...

[NevarMore]

Which has a handy link to get the source and see what it does to be sure that its not doing anything fishy.

Simple Reason

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, amidst all the panic about "Oh noes! Apple knows where I'm at and will tell the government" it could just simply be that this tracking is part of the "Find My iPhone" feature. It kinda makes sense.

But please, carry on with the conspiracy theories. They are quite entertaining.

Re:Simple Reason

[NotAGoodNickname]

Great! Can I opt out of that if I don't want any application tracking me? Oh wait, I can't?

Security?

[Posting=!Working]

Why did they make an app to just view this information? Why didn't they make one that deleted the information or replaced it with 0's? Wouldn't that have made it more secure?

Re:Security?

[xMrFishx]

That's like covering your eyes and pretending something doesn't exist. The phone will still make more location data and store it next time you sync. Also replacing data != secure.

Re:Security?

[Posting=!Working]

The app can be run more than once.

Deleting or replacing insecure data = way more secure than not replacing it.

Re:Security?

[Anonymous Coward]

> way more secure than not replacing it

At what point did WAY become a substitute for MUCH?

"MUCH more secure" isn't that MUCH more difficult to type and is grammatically correct.

Re:Security?

[Posting=!Working]

At what point did WAY become a substitute for MUCH?

Around 800 years ago. Didn't you get the memo?

way â 2â /weÉ/ â"adverb
1.Also, 'way. away; from this or that place: Go way.
2.to a great degree or at quite a distance; far: way too heavy; way down the road.
Origin:
1175â"1225; Middle English, aphetic variant of away

This isn't a big deal

[bl8n8r]

It's not like someone is going to break into your house to steal your iphone location logs. Besides, if my phone or ipad gets ripped-off, It may actually help to reveal where the thief's travels took him. Possibly implicating other theives. I think it's good that Apple is thinking ahead this way. Everyone can be an active participant in crime fighting.

Maybe this will even be enough of a deterrent that the 'other' handset manufacturers will adopt the same strategy for their devices. It could mean the end of technogadget theivery altogether. Also, this is a perfect example of an instance where Apple has pioneered another idea which will change the world to make it better, but they will never get the credit for it. Steve invented the Linux kernel you know... He and Chuck Norris.. it's all over the internet, go read it for yourself.

Re:This isn't a big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

You almost had me with that one. Good job!

Re:This isn't a big deal

[MacGyver2210]

You must be joking...

Since when is copying the nazi-esque stalking tactics of big brother 'pioneering' anything? They are invading your privacy, and you are so deluded by the cult of Mac that all you can say is "Good Job"?

This is why our country is no longer free, the politicians are all fucking corrupt, and corporations control everything. People like YOU are the reason.

Re:This isn't a big deal

[AtomicJake]

He was joking. Just that the "irony" tags were subtle enough to get you trapped...

Re:This isn't a big deal

[kenshin33]

Clearly you;re ok with that but some ppl aren't especially if it is forced down their throats (if all manufacturer are doing that). Personally i'd like to have a say in it it's Freaking machine it should behave as I the owner of it tell it to behave. !

Re:This isn't a big deal

[pla]

It's not like someone is going to break into your house to steal your iphone location logs.

Probably not.

After stealing your iPhone on the subway, however, they know exactly when to find your house unoccupied (at least, of you) and ripe for the robbing.

Re:This isn't a big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

errr., steal the user's wallet at on the subway, during rush hour, and you have the same info. Bad analogy.

Re:This isn't a big deal

[Deekin_Scalesinger]

LOL you got me too. By the end of the first paragraph I could feel the veins near my brain starting to pop. I'm glad I read the whole thing. Now to take care of this aneurysm...

Re:This isn't a big deal

[517714]

Your movements in public are not a privacy issue. You use public thoroughfares and have no legitimate expectation of privacy at any instant, but somehow you construe that adding all those instants together is greater than the sum?

Providing a tool that can be used to invade your privacy is not the same as invading your privacy. Kodak started making cameras and film 120 years ago, and they had the same potential to destroy privacy, but there is nothing inherently evil about them. While I might object to someone following me and documenting my every move, I know I neither have, nor (more importantly) do I believe others should have, recourse against such activities. I think the public has the right to film the police when they beat Rodney King, so I have to defend that right even for those who might somehow abuse that right. That trumps any right to "privacy" in public.

All that said, I think it is an unnecessary record of information and frankly a bit creepy. I think it is unconscionable that battery life of the phone was sacrificed, however minimally, to run a program which the user is unaware of, and which does not serve a clear purpose. Privacy is simply not a particularly appropriate argument against something that does not actually fit under that heading.

Re:This isn't a big deal

[pla]

errr., steal the user's wallet at on the subway, during rush hour, and you have the same info. Bad analogy.

I didn't say "where". I said "when".

Your wallet doesn't reveal that every Thursday night you go to Grandma's house from 6-9pm for dinner and socializing.

Re:This isn't a big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

Who ever has access to this data has access to your routine locations. For you and I this may not mean much unless that person is a house thief. For Presidents, Royal Family, and other VIP, this may mean a bit more. Imagine if Muammar Gaddafi had an iPhone. Boom, his life is over.

Re:This isn't a big deal

[brillow]

You're missing the point. Its evil because my iPhone never told me it was going to be logging my location. If they want to do this fine, BUT I NEED TO KNOW.

Re:This isn't a big deal

[Voyager529]

that's not quite a fair comparison though. Cameras can be used to invade privacy (many celebrities learn this quickly), but those infringements are much more quantifiable an actionable, as it involves someone else taking the photos with their own camera. In this case, it is the person's own device taking location data without the user's explicit consent.

No, I can't really argue against someone's right to sit at a coffee shop across the street and log my going and coming into a particular building. I can't stop them from following me in traffic, but there can - and should be - recourse againse those things being used to my detriment. Once I step on private property, that right no longer applies, and recourse can - and should be - taken at that point. But there's also a difference between simply being stalked by someone with nothing better to do and a device I carry around for the sake if my own benefit performing a function that I don't desire it to do. I think that difference has to do with the distinction between privacy and anonymity. I can be anonymous to people in the street without being private about it. A phone tied to my account information collecting that kind of data allows neither privacy nor anonymity.

Yes, citizens should be allowed to video encounters with law enforcement, but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. There's a difference between keeping a cop honest since they know they're being video recorded and being required to hand over location logging data without consent. And yes, given that there's no "disable logging" option buried anywhere, that constitutes without consent in my book.

Re:Gotta love it...

[xmarkd400x]

RTFA? Why would I do that....

From the FAQ:

Does this application share the information with anyone?

No. All the data stays on your machine. The code behind it has been open-sourced so you can inspect the code and compile it yourself if you’re a developer.

negative points for me =/

really?

[peter in mn]

Well, for a wifi-only ipad, it finds nothing. Has anyone confirmed this? It sounds dubious on the face of it -- why would a device with limited storage generate an infinitely-growing log file with no clear purpose? Is there some setting in Location Services that requests this log?

Re:really?

[FhnuZoag]

It uses cell triangulation, so yeah, it would make sense that it wouldn't log for devices without cellular access.

Re:really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because GPS logs really hog GBs of space?

Re:really?

[Cimexus]

The WiFi-only iPad has neither GPS nor cellular capabilities. Given that TFA states that what is being logged is the cell towers you connect to (not actually your exact location), then naturally the WiFi-only iPad does not log this data.

Nor would my 3G iPad for that matter, as it has never actually had a SIM in it and has never connected to a cellular network (I got the 3G one because it has an actual GPS chip in it ... but still I only use it via WiFi).

Fascist shill of the gigacorporation!

[Quiet_Desperation]

You fool! This is Slashdot. If we're not seeing the End Of Freedom lurking in every shadow then the terrorists have already won!!1!!2!!

Find Your iPhone

[blamanj]

Apple has a service that allows you to find a lost or stolen iPhone. Presumably, the phone logs its position so it can upload it when asked. Nothing scary here, though the fact this data is available means people will try and extract it. My guess is that the next iOS release will wipe this data every seven days or so.

Re:Find Your iPhone

[AtomicJake]

My guess is that the next iOS release will wipe this data every seven days or so.

And this would be OK, then?

Re:Find Your iPhone

[kenshin33]

yeah the service is an opt in you need a mobile me account, and i'm not even sure if it's free. So, why the logging isn't an opt in? why isn;t there a way to deactivate it ???

Re:Find Your iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would it need anything more than the last location? Why a history?

Re:Find Your iPhone

[Cimexus]

I agree that that is the most likely reason this file exists.

The question you might then ask is: why doesn't the iPhone simply report its current position when 'asked' by Find my iPhone, rather than reporting the 'most recent position in the log'. My guess is that if a thief grabs the phone, they may try turning off Location Services (which may also disable the 'live' position-finding by Find my iPhone). But by logging the location, it allows the phone to report 'I don't know where I am now, but my last known location was HERE, x minutes ago' (before the thief turned off Location Services)...

Also the fact that if the device is completely off, Find my iPhone will fail to find the device, adds evidence to the proposition that this file is never actually sent anyway. It's purely logged locally on the phone.

Re:Find Your iPhone

[Missing.Matter]

My guess is that the next iOS release will wipe this data every seven days or so.

It just so happens that my life cycles at a frequency of roughly 7 days.

Re:Find Your iPhone

[chemicaldave]

Apple has a service that allows you to find a lost or stolen iPhone. Presumably, the phone logs its position so it can upload it when asked. Nothing scary here, though the fact this data is available means people will try and extract it. My guess is that the next iOS release will wipe this data every seven days or so.

Really? Nothing scary? Perhaps... but it's certainly immoral, if not illegal. There's no reason why the "lost iDevice" service needs to store past data on your computer. Presumably it doesn't need to store any data, just upload its current position.

Shit like this just screams "regulation." I don't care if it's hidden somewhere in an obfuscated EULA.

make the manufacturers explicitly tell the users:

• what it collects
• how often
• what granularity
• and most importantly, WHY it collects it

Violations should result in jailtime and fines for the people who decided to implement it without informing users.

Re:Find Your iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes

Re:Find Your iPhone

[OverlordQ]

Nothing scary here, though the fact this data is available means people will try and extract it.

If *any other company* was doing this, people would be grabbing pitchforks.

Re:Find Your iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would it need to log that data, though? Just recording the last known location would be adequate. One line in a file is all that is required, not a log of ALL known locations.

Re:Find Your iPhone

[sessamoid]

Bullshit. If Google were doing this, Slashdot would be falling over itself praising it for innovation.

Re:Find Your iPhone

[Anonymous Coward]

Why?

Re:Find Your iPhone

[juasko]

This will not happen...

Google harvest this info, Apple lets it be your private info, and up to you to protect. So google model of erasing is pointless.

Do I have this right?

[GigG]

A record of the places my phone has been is kept on my phone or on the back-up on my computer. Since I assume I know where I have been I don't see a problem with it. There is no evidence that this data is being sent to Apple or anyone else.

Re:Do I have this right?

[Microlith]

If it is being collected you can guarantee it is being sent, how and when is another question entirely. Never mind the privacy implications with respect to other people that may have access to your PC, or law enforcement suddenly knowing everywhere you've been over the last indefinite period.

But of course, no one has any rights before American Corporations.

Re:Do I have this right?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, see comment just above yours re phone finding "service" AND extraction idea.

Re:Do I have this right?

[drb226]

There is no evidence that this data is being sent to Apple or anyone else.

As the article illustrates, any app you install has easy access to this data.

Re:Do I have this right?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no evidence that this data is being sent to Apple or anyone else.

Just like there's no evidence that any number of apps have accessed and uploaded this data.

Re:Do I have this right?

[Anonymous Coward]

As the article illustrates, if you jailbreak your phone you can access this data.

Reading comprehension FTW.

Re:Do I have this right?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, any application on the computer the phone is synced to has access to it. The way to combat this is to tell iTunes to encrypt the backups. Apps on the phone itself cannot access this data.

Re:Do I have this right?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's being done without your knowledge or consent. That's the problem!!
Sometime in the future, when you're in a location you'd rather keep to yourself, just remember... you can't.

Re:Do I have this right?

[Anubis IV]

As the article illustrates...

You must be new here.

Re:Do I have this right?

[Anubis IV]

The article doesn't say that at all. Here's what it actually says:

If someone were to steal an iPhone and "jailbreak" it, giving them direct access to the files it contains, they could extract the location database directly. Alternatively, anyone with direct access to a user's computer could run the application and see a visualisation of their movements.

Nowhere in the article that I saw does it say that any app you install on the phone can access that data. Instead, someone would have to have physical access to your phone or computer, which, as we all know, is the point at which pretty much any security measures are compromised.

Re:Do I have this right?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no evidence that this data is being sent to Apple or anyone else.

As the article illustrates, any app you install has easy access to this data.

Ah, no.

It's a cache file owned by locationd. A system daemon. In a standard cache location. Fucking slashdot morons.

Re:Do I have this right?

[Kagetsuki]

Actually no, any app would have access to this data. Apps have access to certain areas and files on the device and this is one of those areas.

Re:Do I have this right?

[Anubis IV]

Apps have access to a common shared space and their own private space. This file, by all indications, in not in either. It's a file kept by the OS itself, which, since it isn't accessible via API, would then not be accessible to apps unless you first compromise the security of the phone by jailbreaking it. Were it otherwise, I'm pretty sure the researchers would have mentioned it, since it would have been a much bigger threat in that case.

Others

[Anonymous Coward]

And this is different from Android and possibly Blackberries in what way...? Besides, this article is quite a bit late to the party (about a years worth): http://www.intomobile.com/2010/07/19/apple-responds-to-government-inquiries-about-iphone-location-tracking/

Re:Others

[slim]

There's a big difference between telling a web site, or an app, where you are at this moment -- which is what the article you link to is about, and what Android/Blackberry do -- and keeping a log of everywhere you've ever been, without telling you.

Re:Others

[kenshin33]

Android ??? it doesn't log your location or at least it asks you if you want to share (anonymously) your location, you can refuse. but it doesn't log it behind your back

Re:Others

[dogmatixpsych]

That's something different. You can turn that kind of logging in iOS too. This is a different type of tracking that Android might or might not have.

Re:Others

[kenshin33]

I doubt that it has such thing, but assuming it has, it can disabled (open source and there a re non official community driven builds -Cyanogen for instance- ). But it could be an application (3rd party) doing that in which case you'll need to look for it to find it. If such an application exists and is discovered all you need to do is uninstall it.

That should be really easy!!

[Hohlraum]

They are either at the Apple Store, North Face or Star Bucks. Done.

Re:That should be really easy!!

[Antisyzygy]

Yes, and they are never at work or charity events.

Re:That should be really easy!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget the bath house.

Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[chaim79]

Though it is a very fine distinction, Apple isn't receiving any of this information, it's simply being stored.

From the Article

Is Apple storing this information elsewhere?

There’s no evidence that it’s being transmitted beyond your device and any machines you sync it with.

As bad as some may play it, without Apple receiving this information it's simply information that is stored, not "Big Brother"/Apple monitoring your every move.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[FhnuZoag]

Why would you know if Apple is receiving this information or not? Access to this file is not tracked.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[burris]

I get it, it's your phone when Apple is using it to track you, but it's Apple's phone when it comes to deciding what code gets to run on it.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[FatAlb3rt]

Apple isn't receiving any of this information, it's simply being stored.

Prove it.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

How hard would it be to release a software update, upload all the data to apple, then apply another update to reverse these changes?

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[znigelz]

"The most immediate problem is that this data is stored in an easily-readable form on your machine. Any other program you run or user with access to your machine can look through it."

Apple may not upload it while syncing or by using a scheduled cron job, but any single individual app can read it. Also, as the others said, prove to me at no event does any proprietary apple application access the file. The location data resolution is set to one second intervals, that is insane. They can easily know when I take a piss just by how often I frequent that specific location for short time periods.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty sure the onus is on those who assert that Apple is tracking you. As the ARTICLE stated, there is no evidence that Apple is receiving this information.

So yeah, prove that they are.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Burden of proof is on you to show that it's being trasmitted.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple isn't receiving any of this information, it's simply being stored.

Prove it.

Prove they are

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Prove you're not a murderer. You see, generally you're expected to prove accusations not prove innocence.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

As bad as some may play it, without Apple receiving this information it's simply information that is stored, not "Big Brother"/Apple monitoring your every move.

Yet.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[ceoyoyo]

Only if you jailbreak your phone.

Of course, if you jailbreak your phone then any app can track you without reading this file.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple isn't receiving any of this information, it's simply being stored.

Prove it.

It is logically impossible to prove a negative such as 'Apple isn't receiving this information'.

Rather, it is up to you to prove that Apple is receiving the data.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[brillow]

It's not about whether its being stored. Its bad because my iPhone DIDN'T TELL ME. Why all the secrecy? Why take choice away from customers? It's because YOU are the product. The iPhone is just an ad-selling device, and you're sold to advertisers just like any other commodity.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Prove it.

The research report said, "there’s no evidence that it’s being transmitted beyond your device and any machines you sync it with."

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhm. Yes there is.

http :// oo . apple .com

This isn't news. This has been reported months ago. APL users agreed to this inside their software package when they installed the bloatware on their computer.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[praxis]

The proof is in the agreement you make with Apple where you grant them permission to share this data with their "partners" (no specific corporations or people listed). They collect it, they log it, they tell you they share it. Maybe they don't send it now, maybe they do: the point is they intend to.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[vijayiyer]

Prove that android phones aren't sending your location and your emails to Google.
There's a reason that the onus is on the accuser to prove something is wrong.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[brkello]

Uh no. If you make a statement "Apple isn't receiving any of this information" the onus of proof is on the person making the unambiguous claim. Of course, the person has no clue...so there is no need to go through with it.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as the old saw goes.

The problem is not that Apple *IS* accessing all this information, because, as you point out, there is no evidence of that. What is known as fact is this:

1. Apple's mobile product gathers and stores this information for some reason. This reason is not clear.
2. Apple did not tell iPhone users about the gathering and storage of this information. It took someone "hacking" the phone to find out and publicize this issue.
3. Apple can use your internet connection to move data to and from your iPhone whenever it suits them.
4. There is no way to know whether Apple has accessed this information or not, and Apple has shown (see #2) that it cannot be trusted to reveal the sum total of the iPhone's processes regarding personal location data.

The onus is therefore on Apple to prove that they do NOT access this data. If they have no need for it, then there would be no reason for the iPhone to store it.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a clause in the ToS that grants Apple the right to collect this data from you anonymously, and to share it with 3rd parties.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

The file can only be read as root, and root is not active by default on Apple UNIX installs. Does that help?

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[vlueboy]

So yeah, prove that they are.

After *you* prove that any virus/rootkit/troyan of closed source will NEVER phone home.

1) How many researchers have access to the full disassembled iPhone code?
2) How many seconds does it take to upload a small text file once a year?

Remember those viruses with single-day payloads that activate on April fools or a random date? Bingo. Nobody changes their firmware to start logging data that will server NO PURPOSE whatsoever. Even if our GPS coordinates were stored akin to an airplane blackbox where Apple must sneakernet their way to the wreckage in order to read the logs, I wouldn't want my data stored so effortlessly.

That was the whole point of the angerfest at Google's Wifi collection --nobody wants information THEY control to go to parties beyond their immediate realm of control. Ask your local government what they do about [Wiki]leaks. Can YOU do the same to your local government? to your local vendors? to your local ad company? what about to a global consortium of governments, vendors and ad companies?

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

This information is already available to your cellular provider. How do you think they find out who to bill for the call, where their coverage needs another tower? They track the phone's location and identity, signal strength and so on at microsecond resolution. Triangulation gives them the location of the phone - and they already know who you are. The phone doesn't have to be in a call or online - it pings the towers every so often just to display bars. That this information could be used for other purposes has always been obvious to everybody who knows how a cellular phone works.

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

.... doesn't turning on wifi location services on Android pop up a dialog that says "by turning this on, you're letting Google track your every move even when your phone is idle?"

Besides, with the SMS bug, who knows where your messages go :P

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, Apple *is* storing the information elsewhere, as F-Secure found out: http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/00002145.html

Re:Phone is tracking, Apple is not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple isn't receiving any of this information, it's simply being stored.

Prove it.

First, you prove that a giant mega-spider from outer space isn't about to swoop down on you and bite your neck.

Now, I understand that corporate snooping has already been previously demonstrated. But since you're such an evidence-based thinker, I figured I'd throw you an equally substantiated concern.

...which is to say...YOU GOT NOTHING.

The data is crap

[2Y9D57]

I've checked the data on my iPhone and it's crap. Zero hits on my apartment, zero hits on my office. Hundreds of hits on places I've never visited. During a trip to the UK, I seem to have visited locations arranged on a one-kilometre grid covering most of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire -- which is odd, because I just went to my sister's house. Good luck using that for anything worhwhile.

Re:The data is crap

[KidPix]

"To make it less useful for snoops, the spatial and temporal accuracy of the data has been artificially reduced."

Re:The data is crap

[FhnuZoag]

As TFA says, the data displayed on by the app is artificially degraded so that the app itself cannot be used as a snopping tool. The raw data stored is far more precise.

Re:The data is crap

[medcalf]

And since the app is open source, there's no way an enterprising developer will ever be able to remove the degradation of precision.

Re:The data is crap

[pfalstad]

Right, so I downloaded the source and took out the artificial degrading, which took 5 minutes, and the data is still crap. 2 hits within a block of my house. Most of the hits were in a nearby downtown area or along major highways. Maybe it is logging the locations of cell towers.

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

No, not really - look at the source:

    const float precision = 100;

            const float latitude_index = (floor(latitude*precision)/precision);
            const float longitude_index = (floor(longitude*precision)/precision);

The data is just truncated to 2 decimal places. Converting that to use much higher precision still results in coordinates that are often off by hundreds of miles, especially outside of dense population areas.

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, so I downloaded the source and took out the artificial degrading,

Post to a new project on github please. Thanks.

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not really the point - The point is the location services might put you someplace you haven't been to, and at a rather bad time. How would you like to, for example, visit a sex shop several times a week and transmit that info to Apple without ever really being there?

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

No problem. Please upload your file and post a link to it here..

Re:The data is crap

[DoomHamster]

Hundreds of hits on places I've never visited.

Riiiight....."Honest Honey, I've never even heard of 'Kumonawonalaya Pleasure Palace'!"

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

The actual data is crap or the released tool is crap? The tool obsfucates the info somewhat before display, and doesn't show the exact location which was in the database
I believe it's showing the adjacent cell towers to the recorded location, not the location itself

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

From the FAQ of the App:

To make it less useful for snoops, the spatial and temporal accuracy of the data has been artificially reduced. You can only animate week-by-week even though the data is timed to the second, and if you zoom in you’ll see the points are constrained to a grid, so your exact location is not revealed. The underlying database has no such constraints, unfortunately.

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

If you read the FAQ for the application it explains the answer to both of those issues. One is that they intentionally fudge the numbers to the grid so that their app isn't a snooping tool in and of itself. The other is that the data is apparently being derived from the cell information and not the GPS so it is far less accurate. Even still, triangulation and normalization over a moving time window (say 10-30 seconds) would probably clean the results up quite a bit and much closer to accurate than looking at the raw data directly.

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

I did the same thing and had the same results. The data is incredibly inaccurate. I can tell the days I was in Austin on a recent trip but there's no way to know where exctly I went. There was nothing within 300 yards of my house or my office. It is fairly useless information.

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't you concerned you could be linked to a crime you did not commit? The data is there, the phone proves it! You were at all these places, and you are conveniently denying it. How typical. Try blaming it on someone else. When it's all cleared up you'll be let go, but that is so many days of your life you'd be in held in a retaining cell.

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck convincing a judge otherwise.

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

obligatory....

...which is odd, because I just went to my sister's house...

my data showed that I was at your sister's house as well.

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, one could say good luck to you to prove that you just went to your sister house or to prove that you actually live in your apartment as your IPhone data says otherwise. Imagine the scene: an investigator comes to you to ask what you were doing near the place of a murder about the time that the murder happened... you say that you were never there but the location info that they have from your phone says otherwise. Congrats, you're a prime suspect now.

Can't find the link, but read here or in register that police in some European country has a device that automatically copy your phone data when you are stopped by an policeman. Link the 2 stories and do the math.

Re:The data is crap

[ptbarnett]

Maybe it is logging the locations of cell towers.

I believe you are correct: known locations of cell towers and WiFi access points -- depending on which table you look at.

I posted a longer explanation above. But, you are the first posting I've found that seems to be on the right track.

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like "plausible deniability"

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, then based on your phone's GPS log you could be suspected of almost anything.
Why did you go all over Yorkshire? You didn't? Is that so? What are you hiding?

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, but good luck in court trying to prove that the data is false. Juries are far more likely to believe the computer is right.

Re:The data is crap

[martyros]

Maybe it is logging the locations of cell towers.

From my little experience with the iPhone and location, here are my guesses:

• The GPS is expensive to run; having it on all the time would severely degrade battery life.
• The GPS is also not very effective indoors

So I bet that it normally logs only the location of towers, and only logs your GPS location if available (generally only when you use a location-aware app like Maps).

Re:The data is crap

[sl3xd]

When I look at the data, it almost certainly looks like it's the cell towers.

This makes sense: The cell network knows the location of every device on its network - it has to, or else it can't route data properly/efficiently. (ie. through a tower that's in range)

So the iPhone is recording & storing information the cellular network provider already knows. The difference is the cellular network provider knows the location of every device on its network - regarless of make & model.

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

I've checked the data on my iPhone and it's crap. Zero hits on my apartment, zero hits on my office. Hundreds of hits on places I've never visited.

Thats what *you* say you dirty little...

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that might have to do with the app provided:

"To make it less useful for snoops, the spatial and temporal accuracy of the data has been artificially reduced. You can only animate week-by-week even though the data is timed to the second, and if you zoom in youâ(TM)ll see the points are constrained to a grid, so your exact location is not revealed. The underlying database has no such constraints, unfortunately."

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly enough, I don't have "consolidated.db" in my sync backup. This is the file and location the iPhoneTracker app reads from. I use an iPhone 4.2.6. Soooo, anyone else not have this information?

Re:The data is crap

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

Actually.... I think it's not the iPhone's logging the data, but rather it's a cache of data downloaded FROM Apple.

Somebody mentioned to me a while back that at some conference, somebody from Apple mentioned a hotspot cache to help get location faster without being online. Your post just jogged my memory of this. So it actually makes sense. You'd want it to propagate to all your devices because it helps you get location data, and Apple doesn't take it because it was data from them in the first place. And you get faster lookup of location data even when offline.

CDMA phones don't have this file because towers transmit location assistance data without a data connection session open anyways.

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

the 1k grid is artificially imposed by the researchers app. You have to look at the data manually or through a non-filtering app to know how accurate the triangulation really is (as per their own faq).

Re:The data is crap

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you check the actual data or did you use this app? The FAQ says that they've purposely de-rezzed the data in order to make their tool less useful to others that might steal your data.

Re:The data is crap

[Kagetsuki]

Those data samples prove your assumption is correct. Look at how the spots spread out over time (in the sample videos), the size of the spots is the strength of the signal. Triangulate that and if you can take into account geographic and physical features and you'll have a fairly accurate tracking system. Phones in Japan don't usually have GPS but they all have Navi - all the location data is just triangulated from towers.

But Not Logging Location Very Well

[Wook Man]

I ran the app against my phone. It has locations that I would have only gone to on a recent driving trip. But it doesn't include the whole trip, and it includes locations that I have never been too.

So yeah, it is tracking locations, but is not very accurate. I'm not even sure it is doing it via GPS. It might be doing it via the towers, and the locations are where the base stations are for the towers. Maybe.

Re:But Not Logging Location Very Well

[xMrFishx]

to quote TFA:

To make it less useful for snoops, the spatial and temporal accuracy of the data has been artificially reduced. You can only animate week-by-week even though the data is timed to the second, and if you zoom in you’ll see the points are constrained to a grid, so your exact location is not revealed. The underlying database has no such constraints, unfortunately.

Re:But Not Logging Location Very Well

[Cimexus]

Yes, it's logging the location of the towers you hit, not your actual location, and certainly not via GPS. TFA says so.

Re:But Not Logging Location Very Well

[Anonymous Coward]

It's GPS with interpolation. You probably keep your phone in your pocket when you drive, not stuck under the windshield as you would a "proper" GPS. No signal for a long while (such as when you drive and there's a metal roof over your head and what amounts to a concrete canyon around you) or weak/garbled signal produces odd results.

Karma

[Antisyzygy]

Apple fanbois couldn't stop bashing Google's wifi tracking, meanwhile saying Apple's ethics are superior. I for one can't wait until lawyers get a hold of this. Karmic retribution.

Re:Karma

[krizoitz]

Um, no, its not the same at all. Google was KEEPING the information, Apple isn't even GETTING the information. Whether or not you think Apple's devices should keep this information at all is one thing, but the comparison to what Google is doing is not accurate in any way.

Re:Karma

[Antisyzygy]

How exactly does the "find my iPhone" work then if this information is not able to be retrieved by Apple?

Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[hellfire]

Okay I'm all for explaining why this is bad, but why the fuck do we insist as a group using the example of a private eye tracking down a cheating spouse for the purpose of divorce as a reason to take privacy concerns seriously? The average citizen is going to be like "Oh well I don't have to worry about that, I have nothing to hide from my spouse!" even if they are lying to themselves. The political and social leadership will be like "well then don't cheat and you'll be fine!"

WORST... EXAMPLE...EVAR...

Here's some better examples for this specific situation:
1) A burglar determining a pattern when you aren't home so they can rob your house.
2) A stalker determining the best place to attack you
3) Someone who doesn't like you smearing your character publicly simply because your phone walked by a strip club (he must have gone in, he's a sinner!!!), even though 2 blocks away is the hospice you volunteer once a week at.

Let's try to come up with better examples that make people actually care please?

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[Anonymous Coward]

ok, i'll bite, how about someone who cares about freedom and privacy finding out the whereabouts of s jobs and then paying him a visit as he breathes his last?

how about if that someone isn't susceptible to marketing and polished aluminum, and seriously disturbs the zen transplendence by shouting out something like "die you evil creep, and take your 2nd rate computers and polished mp3 jukeboxes with you"?

is that cool?

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[vlm]

Visiting the hiring interview room at a competitor on your day off, with your company issued must-carry phone? This could get really weird...
Insurance company requiring tracking data to prove you don't go to fast food joints or tobacco shops, and you do visit the gym regularly?
Police / employers harassing you when they download your coordinates and find out you're volunteering at the "wrong" political election office or you attend the "wrong" church? (Or more likely, at least in the backwards USA, the wrongness would be defined as not attending church at all?)
Company wants a record of exactly where your phone went on your "sick" day. God help you if you left the house to visit doctor or pharmacy, because thats not "staying home and resting".

Every day I'm happier I have an ipod touch to do i-stuff with, and a plain ole VM pay as you go phone for that old fashioned "telephone call" functionality. The coolest part is when I drain the ipod battery from screwing around with music / videos / games, I can still do the important stuff like make and receive phone calls. I know people whom absolutely squeal when angry birds fly off with their battery charge and then they can't talk on the phone or text for a couple hours. Lately I've been facetiming thru open wifis instead of making phone calls on my old fashioned cellphone, if everyone I knew did facetime, I'd probably ditch the phone entirely.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[vlm]

Let's try to come up with better examples that make people actually care please?

Oh wait I've got a fun one... The only legal people that matter in the USA anymore are corporations, so ... What is the legal liability to a company that tracks the location of all its employees and then knowingly does nothing with the knowledge of the employee being in an illegal location? Perhaps he's only got a S clearance or entirely uncleared, yet here is proof of him walking around in the TS offices and warehouses... If the company does absolutely nothing with its proof of illegal activity, and later the guy gets caught (camera, whatever) then exactly how liable is the company or its agents as a co-conspirator?

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[chemicaldave]

How about someone altering the data to make it appear as if you visited somewhere you actually weren't?

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps he's only got a S clearance or entirely uncleared, yet here is proof of him walking around in the TS offices and warehouses...

You have no clue what you are talking about do you?

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[Lord_Jeremy]

Agreed. I've got a 3-year-old nokia clamshell crap phone that works much better than my girlfriend's Droid X. Seriously, when we're out and want to reach someone it's always mine that is used because her battery is perpetually dead. She keeps bugging me to "upgrade" and get an iPhone or some other similar device. My response is that I already carry around an iPod Touch and iPad, not to mention laptop sometimes. The purpose of a phone is to make phone calls and my week-long-lasting nokia is more of a phone than any android of ios device in existence.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[binford2k]

Except that none of your examples actually fit, since you need physical access to the device in question to get access to this data! If a burglar can do that, I've got much bigger problems, yeah?

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about sticking to basics?

I appreciate that sometimes nobody knows where I am or what I am doing. Period.
(In fact I appreciate this most of the time)

I don't see what makes a business, a CEO, a politician, a cop, a lawyer, a doctor or anyone else so superior to me that they should have the right to know anything I wish to keep private. Where did this 'Oh come on, it's a [Insert Profession], there is no harm in them knowing about what you do' mentality come from anyway? There's nothing wrong with not making every single moment of your life public, in fact it's psychologically healthy to keep a few things intimate and private (whatever these things are). It's just good for yourself to know that you're not 100% a public person and that you have a private life too.

It has nothing to do with potential harm that could happen to you, it's about privacy for the sake of it. The very fact that many people today have moved from 'privacy for its own sake' to 'privacy to protect yourself from harm' is the biggest part of the problem already.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[CharlyFoxtrot]

I'm examining the file from my backup, there are isolated data points at places I haven't been. I assume these are errors ... or maybe they've already gotten to me ;-)

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[chemicaldave]

TFA mentions that many points can be off by miles due to signal triangulation being used in place of GPS

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[King_TJ]

Will any of that work though?

1. People still openly POST such info on sites like Facebook, or via Twitter accounts that anyone can subscribe to.
2. Can't imagine how this would prevent any stalking from happening, since stalkers have had great success at what they do, long before this technology was even available? That's like suggesting you could help prevent murder by taking steak knives away from people at restaurants.
3. That smear strategy would never really hold up to scrutiny, since the accused person could have lost their phone or given it to someone else to borrow, or even left it in a vehicle that they weren't driving at the time. Never mind the leap of logic to say they must have visited a certain building just because they pass by it on the way to another one they have reason to be in regularly. It'd be a lot more effective just to follow them around and take some pictures as evidence.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[Alcimedes]

Automatic speeding tickets issued if you get pulled over and your GPS coordinates indicate you traveled from point A to point B in less time than the speed limit would allow.

Given they can strip all the data off of your phone in seconds now, would be an easy to to add some cash after you got pulled over for a broken tail light etc.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[genfail]

Phones get stolen. If they're willing to steal your phone then they're willing to break into your house especially if they know when you won't be home. Also if your employer gives you an iPhone then they can make you sync on a work computer which they do have access to.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be far more efficient for a burglar, stalker, or fan to follow you around than to gain physical access to your phone for the same effect.

I used the app, and it makes a nicely animated and zoomable view of everywhere I've been since 2010, across multiple devices. Pretty neat, really.

Potential ramifications? Yeah, I suppose this information could potentially be used against you, if you have sworn that you were someplace and your phone says differently, but I don't see the harm in it. The mobile networks are already tracking the same information, they just aren't making it so conveniently available to you, the end user and owner of the information.

Guess what? Your iPhone also stores tons of other information, much of which could be considered "sensitive" or "personal." If my expensive phone were to go missing, I'd be more concerned about the device and other data than some old retrospective of where I've been. To wit:

records of incoming and outbound phone calls
email
voicemail
text messages
address books
photographs (typically GPS-tagged as well, by the way)

and potentially, depending on your usage:
cached passwords
dropbox or other cloud-stored documents
your (lack of) progress in video games
your Groupons
your shopping lists
etc etc

I think it's kinda neat, much more accurate than manual check-ins via FourSquare. I certainly don't think it's the OMG CIVIL RIGHTS ARE OVER crisis that some are making it out to be.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who says you're not being tracked on that device too? They all share 90-95% the same OS and it would stand to reason that every time you connected to a wifi access point, your location would ALSO be logged and probably sent back to the mothership. (check your tunes's EULA)

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[cheesecake23]

Every day I'm happier I have an ipod touch to do i-stuff with, and a plain ole VM pay as you go phone for that old fashioned "telephone call" functionality. The coolest part is when I drain the ipod battery from screwing around with music / videos / games, I can still do the important stuff like make and receive phone calls. I know people whom absolutely squeal when angry birds fly off with their battery charge and then they can't talk on the phone or text for a couple hours. Lately I've been facetiming thru open wifis instead of making phone calls on my old fashioned cellphone, if everyone I knew did facetime, I'd probably ditch the phone entirely.

I considered modding you +1 funny for making such a good argument and then completely contradicting yourself with your last words, but then I decided to be nice about it and just mock you publicly instead.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[binford2k]

Lol. So we switch from using one corner case to another? ;-)

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[Anonymous Coward]

"ipod touch to do i-stuff with"

Still supports the same company doing this. No difference to Apple whatsoever. You paid, you'll get screwed eventually, even if you don't even know it.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[jmuzz]

"Every day I'm happier I have an ipod touch to do i-stuff with"

Your assuming the i-touch doesn't track, no report on if it does or doesn't yet.
Sure it has no GPS, but it can still determine location with any wi-fi that it sees which gives 50m accuracy. In city areas there is constant wifi (hidden or not, it still sees them all), so it is able to track easily.

iPad has GPS, is it keeping this same tracking info or not?

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[exomondo]

2. Can't imagine how this would prevent any stalking from happening, since stalkers have had great success at what they do, long before this technology was even available? That's like suggesting you could help prevent murder by taking steak knives away from people at restaurants.

Except that would be a major inconvenience to the user but removing apple's ability to track the user's location isn't going to inconvenience the user.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[ThermalRunaway]

Expect that phones and all other "transmitting" devices (among other things) are completely banned from secure areas. If you carry a phone around in a SCIF you have bigger problems than the Steve Jobs tracking file.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[worx101]

Well, to prove your points, if they are so easy. We all know Steve Jobs carries around an iPhone, get his data and lets see where he has been.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[Macgrrl]

Out of curiosity, in your fantasy scenario, how does the burglar/stalker/psycho get this information? It is stored locally on your phone or the computer you synch to and not broadcast further.

If they have access to that information they have already, they have already broken in. They probably don't need the data to cause damage at this point.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[Anonymous Coward]

> I know people whom absolutely squeal

Hypercorrection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection); that should be "I know people WHO absolutely squeal," since "who" refers to the subject of the sentence. Just because it's not the first word in the sentence does not mean you need to say "whom."

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[jdogalt]

Let's try to come up with better examples that make people actually care please?

Oh wait I've got a fun one... ...snip... If the company does absolutely nothing with its proof of illegal activity, and later the guy gets caught (camera, whatever) then exactly how liable is the company or its agents as a co-conspirator?

Sadly, I'd guess no liability at all. I wouldn't have said that until the infamous gang rape (viriginia?) within the last couple years where dozens of spectators at the school dance(?) watched, some of them cheering on. I recall the news later said that by the letter of the law, there is no legal duty to make an attempt to report a rape (or presumably any other crime) in progress or after the fact. If you combine that, with the foundation of police undercover work including what used to be called illegal entrapment, ... and then throw in the post-9/11 fudge factor on traditional ethics ... I guess I'd just recommend that anyone and everyone assume that the law-enforcers and companies, are not going to be the ones sweating to protect _your_ ass from crimes they are watching in progress or committing themselves. If you are lucky, they'll allow crimes to happen to you, and a greater good will be served when a 'bigger fish' is caught.

I'd cry about 'moral hazard' and how ineffective such a legal system would seem to be both in theory and practice, but I guess that's just the way it is. The whole idea of 'moral hazard' kind of went out the window in my book with the bank bailouts and gitmo remaining open.

Though perhaps in your narrow scope of crimes of state secrets, there are other laws at play. Maybe even secret ones for all I don't know. But as you can see, the wider point of 'no legal duty to report an in-progress rape' and its relation to your point, kind of set off my disgust with our current legal system.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[Anonymous Coward]

(Or more likely, at least in the backwards USA, the wrongness would be defined as not attending church at all?)

Just as an FYI, although the last numbers I saw put the US population of "faithful" around 80%, the number of Americans who attend any formal church service more than just on major holidays like Christmas or Easter is only around 50%.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[Anonymous Coward]

If he is walking into TS offices with his cell phone, you have bigger problems.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[juasko]

1) How exactly would they obtain this information....
2) Eh based on what information....
3) Eh again based on what information...

The original example is the most correct one of what can happen.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[juasko]

That is why Apple is serious about your privacy, Steve Jobs has an iPhone.

Re:Can we start using examples other than Divorce?

[speculatrix]

a spouse or child who goes for regular counselling due to issues of abuse or neglect at home

students sharing a house who use each others' computers as a backup

people issued with iphones by employer who sync their iphone to a computer at work, which is shared with other colleagues, or backed up to a fileserver which can be accessed by colleagues, or whose home directory is on a file server for roaming profiles

policemen, security workers, or social workers when there's a risk of having their phones stolen by disaffected people. sure, they may lock their phones and minimise personal information, but don't realise the tracking DB reveals all.

Yet the post below...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Is a Bill Gates Borg for a post about not wanting to make tablets yet.

Perhaps /. should have updated the icons a little bit with the redesign.

Locate my iOS Device

[Anonymous Coward]

Before you all go jumping to conclusions did anyone ever think that this information exists as part of the Locate My iPhone service that Apple provides? I just checked and I don't have the file on my iPad but I do for my iPhone. I don't have the locate service enabled for my iPad. I do for my iPhone.

gps coords

[Anonymous Coward]

Frankly I haven't really been anywhere particularly damning in the last couple of years. If Apple want's to fill up their servers with my home location (easily found via credit reports and other means) and where I work (again, too many ways to find out) then have at it.

Except it's not

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought your precious walled garden was keeping you safe, faggots.

Turns out that your every move is being tracked by the guy who fucks you in the ass...

Well, there's just *one little flaw in your statement. The data is never sent to Apple.

I guess Steve Jobs is just so insanely great that he is able to collect the data by astral projection or something.

*Two flaws actually - many owners and users of Apple products are heterosexual.

Re:Except it's not

[sumdumass]

Well, there's just *one little flaw in your statement. The data is never sent to Apple.

That you know of. Or better yet, what if its sent to ATT or whoever your carrier is now? I mean they would have a legitimate need for the information to maintain their network except they can probably gain it on their own without it.

More importantly, the government can gain access to the location and use it for anything if they get your phone. How about you are standing on the street corner waiting to cross the street, minding your own business in a neighborhood that you have a legitimate reason to be in. You all the sudden hear a commotion down the street and try to see what it is. Turns out to be one of the internet organized protest rallies attempting to raid the democrat or republican convention or some speech that happening close by that you knew nothing about. You sit there watching peacefully as they pass by you pondering whether to ask them what's happening or join them. They are holding signs up advertising a web site so you open your Iphone and browse to it hoping to grab some insight into what's happening in front of you. Then moments later, they clash with the police. The police chase them, rocks are thrown, tear gas is used, in the chaos, you are snagged up by the police. You swear you weren't part of it. A policeman and a representative got seriously hurt so they aren't going easily on people. They grab you Iphone and pull this file out, find out you were within 20 feet of the start of it, moved closer to it before the violence started, and visited the website that organized it moments before the violence started. You are now on the hot seat for attacking a police officer, attacking a representative of the state or federal government, participating in an illegal mob/protest/criminal gang activity and whatever else they can dream up because they are out for blood. And Its your IPHONE that is going to give them enough information to either convict you (because they like making examples out of people who hurt government employees and politicians) or cost you a shit ton of money, probably a conversion to some religion so your prayers would feel like they are helping more, maybe even your job, and maybe time in jail while sorting it out, just to get out of it.

Yeah.. It's a fail to be concerned with the Apple products tracking you without your knowledge for uses not disclosed to anyone.

Re:Except it's not

[binford2k]

Never has your username been more appropriate. Go take your meds.

Re:Except it's not

[Cheech Wizard]

Since every cell phone can be, and is, tracked by tower, why do you only point to Apple? The feds or which ever agency can go right to any cell phone company and get tracking information on any cell phone. They don't need Apple or a database in a cell phone to get that data. They go direct to the tracking source - The cell phone company. They're tracking you all the time the phone is turned on. Not to mention, this is nothing new. It's been going on for years, well before iPhones were even being sold. A local cop I know showed me that back around 2004. And with the Patriot Act (such as it is) tracking became standard.

Re:Except it's not

[Mr. Firewall]

Or better yet, what if its sent to ATT or whoever your carrier is now?

Uh, AT&T (or whomever is your carrier) already knows everywhere your cell phone has been.

Re:Except it's not

[sumdumass]

Yep.. It's only a warrant away as apposed to simply fumbling through your phone and drawing conclusions before any external information can be processed.

Re:Except it's not

[sumdumass]

Your right, the feds can do that. However, the pissed off local police and their federal helpers need a warrant and time. This file can avoid all that and make you guilty in their eyes before they even bother checking out your legitimate reason for being there or bother with enough evidence to convince a judge they deserve access to it.

So let me put this straight with you. If the cops normally need a warrant to get the information, then giving it to them this easily is simply wrong.

Rescue

[Anonymous Coward]

c'mon iSheep, defend your shepherd !

Re:Rescue

[Cimexus]

Devices that haven't had the Find my iPhone service enabled do not appear to have the file. I'd say it's a pretty reasonable proposition that the log is therefore used by the Find my iPhone service to report the device's 'last known' position and time in cases where the phone's ~current~ location can't be found (e.g. location services turned off, outside cellular coverage area with no view of the sky/no GPS, etc.)

Still a bit dodgy that there appears to be no 'expiry' time for the data though. They should change it so it deletes locations older than 7 days or something. But still, I don't think it's anything to get too worried about given that the log file is never actually sent to Apple or a third party.

Jailbreak?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there a Jailbreak version, which prohibits this?
Until now, I wasn't jailbreaking my iPhone (no need, I would never buy apps and don't pirate either). But this would be a fully legitimate use case in my eyes.

Steve Jobs - Police State Legacy

[Anonymous Coward]

TIA - Total Information Awareness - the agenda of the police state

Apple - now a proven surveillance society agent, COVERTly (now openly) black boxing the American public from the inside out.

Google - long time surveillance society organization, openly black boxing the American public from the outside in.

http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-probe-of-apple-google-hiring-collusion-gains-steam-2010-4
http://gigaom.com/2010/09/24/doj-settles-with-apple-adobe-google-over-hiring-collusion-charges/

AND they're in League with each other, not just with Lucifer.

Somebody dial up Yakov Smirnoff

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia... phone track you!

Michigan police

[vawwyakr]

Seems interesting when you consider this along with the police story. They could yank this file and start tracing your every move.

Interesting Law enforcement use

[Nukenbar]

Currently, law enforcement can track cell phones historically via cell site information. This can be useful in breaking an alibi defense, or loosely grouping a band of people together over time. This only problem with cell site information is the fact that cell site info is only recorded as the cell phone is being used. This new info has the potential to tell law enforcement where the phone, and likely the owner, was at times when the cell phone was not even in use.

As with all things cell phones, most states require a search warrant to use anything off of the phone.

Re:Interesting Law enforcement use

[Anonymous Coward]

As with all things cell phones, most states require a search warrant to use anything off of the phone.

Unless you fly into the USA; customs have the right to search your digital assets.

Re:Interesting Law enforcement use

[Anonymous Coward]

don't forget this isn't just your cell phone it's all your apple devices like the ipad, and ipod and law enforcement doesn't just have access to it any app can take that information if they want it. Honestly if Apple only had the information stored somewhere it really wouldn't bother me but the fact that it sits on the phone and any app can access the data is annoying. So I start getting spam from people based on where I go physically in the world? Yes apple probably won't spam me but they could spam my email address I give apple when I create an account, their apps could use this to spam me more specifically or track where I go in stores and so on. So now I have a tracking cookie in the physical world.

Re:Interesting Law enforcement use

[PPH]

This only problem with cell site information is the fact that cell site info is only recorded as the cell phone is being used.

Wrong. Its possible to determine which cell a phone has checked into, whether it has been used or not. We had a case of a woman who drove off the road and lay in her wrecked car for days. She was located by finding the cell site her phone had last checked in to before its battery went dead.

She survived. Initially, the police refused her husband's request to obtain the cell data when she first went missing, citing privacy concerns. But they did obtain her ATM card activity record (without permission) and assumed that since she had withdrawn money after the missing report was filed, she was running from her husband. After a couple of days, the police discovered that it was the husband who had used the card and then they went looking for her.

* The cops thought her husband was trying to track her down. Evidently, they are too stupid to track the cell phone, contact her, determine whether she is acting on her own free will and then telling the husband, "Sorry buddy. She left. Call a divorce attorney." My guess is that it's not stupidity. They just don't want the knowledge of how quickly they can obtain obtaion data without a warrant to become public knowledge.

Not that bad...

[drb226]

As TFA notes, cell providers already store similar data

Cell-phone providers collect similar data almost inevitably as part of their operations, but it’s kept behind their firewall. It normally requires a court order to gain access to it...

Not that I condone cell providers' actions here, but Apple isn't doing anything that much worse, in terms of providing the govt with information on you.

Re:Gotta love it...

[ptbarnett]

Which has a handy link to get the source and see what it does to be sure that its not doing anything fishy.

If one has a Mac. I can't read the interesting parts of the downloaded package, so I tried to back-track to the referenced Python script. It looks like similar data is stored on Windows in \Documents and Settings\User\Application Data\Apple Computer\MobileSync\Backup, but the filenames have different suffixes and aren't in the same format.

location of the file on the iphone /var/root....

[Anonymous Coward]

It's some cached thing, it can be evil but for now it seems only used so your phone knows where it is and the best way to work there (since it was previously there).
Location of the file in your iPhone: http://cl.ly/1W2B23260l0f3C2g3k1a

Workaround for hacked iOS devices

[ERIAMJH]

http://technicalmusings.blogspot.com/2011/04/ios-consolidateddb-workaround-for.html

Populist nonsense

[fingon]

The file contains only unique wifi spots seen over time period, each once. In my case, that is 12k different wifi basestations, but any repeated travel is unlikely to see those points again..

mini ~/temp/x/library/caches/locationd>sqlite3 consolidated.db 'select * from WifiLocation' | wc
      11907 23814 257383
mini ~/temp/x/library/caches/locationd>sqlite3 consolidated.db 'select * from WifiLocation' | cut -d '|' -f 1 | sort | uniq -c | egrep -v ' 1 '
mini ~/temp/x/library/caches/locationd>

Nothing to see here, move on..

Re:Populist nonsense

[ekimminau]

So Google Earth got slammed for tracking Wifi Hostpots but APple uses every iPhone to do it for them. Im sure AT&T would love to get their hands on the "whats my closest ATT WiFi hotspot" data.

I wish these MacOS fanbois created a version for Windows/Linux/Java/other.

Re:Populist nonsense

[Pikkebaas]

You are querying the wrong table. TFA clearly mentions a table named CellLocation. Which would probably contain cellphone location records, just like your table called WifiLocation contains wifi base station locations. I'm not sure if you are trolling or just extremely willfully ignorant.

Re:Populist nonsense

[Nukenbar]

Ah, so that is why this looks like it works so well the first time one a trip. I guess you would not get this neat of a video the next time though the same area.

Re:Populist nonsense

[Drakino]

Interesting poking at that file. My iPhone 4 with the app clearly shows all the travel I've done in the US. The WiFi one also has some locations in Taiwan too. Going to have to build out a full map to see what other interesting spots show up, as I'm not exactly sure why it would show several spots overseas. Unless the file was being built up even prior to me receiving it and doing a restore.

Re:Populist nonsense

[Bogtha]

The file contains only unique wifi spots seen over time period, each once.

It sounds like this is the data it uses for location-based apps between the time it takes to switch on the GPS radio and get a lock on enough satellites for a real location. Not many people realise this, but unless you are constantly monitoring the satellites, it can take a significant amount of time to get a location via GPS alone. So vendors like Apple fake it by getting a "good enough" location via more immediate means (e.g. remembering where Wi-Fi base stations are) and then give the app an update when it gets a real GPS signal. The alternatives are to keep the GPS radio on at all times (drains battery) or let the user wait (can take 30 seconds before you get a location).

Re:Populist nonsense

[Anonymous Coward]

If you bothered to read the rest of the page, you'd see that they provided all the information needed to get to the file yourself, at which point, it's easily read with the sql-lite app of your choice.

Or did you just want the pretty maps without doing any work?

Re:Populist nonsense

[ptbarnett]

The WiFi one also has some locations in Taiwan too.

Mine has a location next to UC Berkelely. But, that's the only out-of-the-ordinary location I found. I suspect that the database was seeded with it.

Re:Populist nonsense

[ptbarnett]

It sounds like this is the data it uses for location-based apps between the time it takes to switch on the GPS radio and get a lock on enough satellites for a real location.

Yes! I think it's just a cache of WiFi access points and cell base stations that were "heard" by the iPhone at some point. The phone got the location from an on-line database and stored the data for future use.

Re:Populist nonsense

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah. Google got slammed because, in addition to the name & location of the hot spots, they were collecting (and storing) data* being sent by computers using that hot spot, such as emails, files being transferred, etc.

Re:Populist nonsense

[omnichad]

Well...Apple doesn't seem to be recording the actual transmitted packets of those wireless hotspots, so they're off to a better start already.

Steve?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Steve, how are you doing? I hope you are filing away lawsuits after lawsuits while tracking every itoy user while locking them into your walled garden while being hypocrite while stealing livers and all. You are such a genius!

Re:Steve?

[juasko]

Please be correct when you flame.

It's logging not tracking and there is a significant difference.

Where is this file on the phone?

[jordan314]

Has anyone figured out where the file is on the phone? They show where it's stored in your backups but I would like to find it on my jailbroken phone.

Re:Where is this file on the phone?

[digismack]

/var/root/Library/Cache/locationd/consolidated.db

Implying the data gets anywhere near Cupertino

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice title guys

Apple does not need to know

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that this information resides in a file on your computer does not mean that the information is by any means transmitted to Apple as the title of this article suggests.

Unless you are the Michigan State Police

[cruff]

With their phone data slurper tools (Michigan State Police Could Search Cell Phones During Traffic Stops), they could get your location database in a couple of minutes.

Re:LOL What Now MAC-FAGS

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup just like how your Homeland security is protecting your faggot ass.

Its no secret

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple have created and maintained their own Wi-Fi location database since iPhone OS 3.2(?) which allows iOS devices to determine their location without access to traditional GPS its kinda obvious that they need to get this data from somewhere! why are people so shocked by this? Its clearly stated in the licence agreement:

Taken from the iPHONE SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT (available at http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/iphone4.pdf):

"(b) Location Data. Apple and its partners and licensees may provide certain services through your iPhone that rely upon location information. To provide and improve these services, where available, Apple and its partners and licensees may transmit, collect, maintain, process and use your location data, including the real-time geographic location of your iPhone, and location search queries. The location data and queries collected by Apple are collected in a form that does not personally identify you and may be used by Apple and its partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based products and services. By using any location-based services on your iPhone, you agree and consent to Apple's and its partners' and licensees' transmission, collection, maintenance, processing and use of your location data and queries to provide and improve such products and services. You may withdraw this consent at any time by going to the Location Services setting on your iPhone and either turning off the global Location Services setting or turning off the individual location settings of each location-aware application on your iPhone. Not using these location features will not impact the non location-based functionality of your iPhone. When using third party applications or services on the iPhone that use or provide location data, you are subject to and should review such third party's terms and privacy policy on use of location data by such third party applications or services."

So Let Me Get This Straight

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not concerned that EVERY CELL PHONE is required by the government to be remotely trackable, but Apple is EVIL because there's a text file that (according to TFA) periodically stores location information to a file that is only stored on the phone and the computer sync'ed to? So you're worried about someone stealing your phone or computer and gaining info about your past locations more than you are about someone hacking a system that lets you be tracked in real-time. Smart.

Bottom line, if you're worried about THEM (whoever THEY are) knowing your movements, don't carry a cell phone.

(For those that missed it all cell phones have been required to be remotely location trackable since around 2005. This was put into effect to allow 911 to pinpoint cell phone caller locations but has the side effect of allowing anyone with access to the system to know where you phone is.)

Re:So Let Me Get This Straight

[tuxicle]

...but has the side effect of allowing anyone with access to the system to know where you phone is.

Well that right there is the kicker. When the phone itself logs location information in an insecure way, it opens up the information to anyone who has access to your phone and/or backups to a desktop. This can also include authors of malicious apps.

In the interest of full disclosure (by Apple)

[ALeader71]

This logging should be made clear in the end user license agreement. If this data is for apple-only services (like lost phone tracking), it should be protected from malicious apps and ad generating apps by policy and through encryption.

Otherwise, slashdot.org may have to make a Steve Jobs-as-Borg icon for future Apple related posts.

Re:In the interest of full disclosure (by Apple)

[Antisyzygy]

Frankly, the borg analogy applies more to Apple than Microsoft these days just because Apple has a wider presence, and non-fanboi's tend to think the follow the same path as "resistance is futile".

Re:In the interest of full disclosure (by Apple)

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a good idea, honestly. The microsoft icon should be changed to Wilford Brimley. A doddering, belligerent, old man riddled with diabetes but still angrily hanging on.

Low accuracy, but pretty neat...

[adjuster]

I just dumped the file from my iPhone and imported it into a Google map. I had to check out the source code to the tool at TFA to figure out that the dates are based on an epoch of 2001-01-01 and not the usual Unix epoch date.

I'm looking forward to using this feature to help me track my location. Since the phone is already doing this "for free" it's not going to "cost" me any more battery power to use this log. It's not as accurate as GPS, but it's accurate enough for my needs.

Once I've got a cron job setup to offload the file from my (jailbroken) iPhone 3GS to a box on my network I'll work out how to wipe the file on the device after each upload (so that the device isn't carrying around weeks or months of my position data).

Re:Low accuracy, but pretty neat...

[Antisyzygy]

Nerd.

Re:Low accuracy, but pretty neat...

[cvtan]

Jealous.

Re:Low accuracy, but pretty neat...

[Antisyzygy]

Sort of. I'm a math nerd, and I can program, but my computer science skills are nowhere near this guy's.

Re:Low accuracy, but pretty neat...

[adjuster]

Yep-- I resemble that remark.

Re:Low accuracy, but pretty neat...

[Antisyzygy]

Me too.

Re:Low accuracy, but pretty neat...

[Anonymous Coward]

@Adjuster - did you compile under 10.5 or 10.6? I grabbed the source but it doesn't build in XCode 3.1.4 under 10.5 -- there's a missing declaration for NSApplicationDelegate, so the build fails. And the precompiled binary simply doesn't run on my machine; I assume it's 10.6-only, but I don't see anything to that effect on the website.

Re:Low accuracy, but pretty neat...

[Anonymous Coward]

The proper response is either
a) 'you jelly?'
b) 'u mad?'

learn2interweb

Re:Low accuracy, but pretty neat...

[adjuster]

I can't tell you about that funny Mac stuff... (thought the idea that a binary is specific to a specific OS release is really, really funny to me as a Windows user).

I didn't compile their app at all. I just found the "location.db" SQLite database on my phone, copied it over to my PC, and dumped it with an SQLite browser. I looked at the source of TFA's app to figure out what the timestamp epoch date was, but other than that I didn't use their app for anything.

Re:Low accuracy, but pretty neat...

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't tell you about that funny Mac stuff... (thought the idea that a binary is specific to a specific OS release is really, really funny to me as a Windows user).

So no version of Windows has ever included new APIs not available in older versions of Windows? Ever?

Re:Low accuracy, but pretty neat...

[Izeickl]

Is your memory that bad you feel excited by viewing a map of where you went in the past month??

Re:Low accuracy, but pretty neat...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hrm, OK. I'm on a Mac, so I would have thought their source should compile straight "out of the box" if the provided binary didn't run. Seems like it might have some dependency on 10.6, so maybe I'll poke around the filesystem on the phone directly. Thanks. -- Jon (AC @ 2:07PM)

Re:Low accuracy, but pretty neat...

[Frogg]

...and so he should be with his 5 digit user ID! - i guess you must be new 'round here? ;-)

It likely is being used for...

[shawnce]

If I had to guess (I do) Apple is recording information about cellphone towers and WIFI networks the device sees. This information is then at some point anonymized and submitted to Apple to populate/update their location database that all Mac OS X 10.6 and iOS users utilize to know their approximate location in absence of GPS.

If it is easy to access such as is suggested I agree Apple should evaluate a better way...

It is also possible that it isn't recording your location but storing tower/wifi location information for the general area you are currently in (or have visited recently) to allow quick location estimates in absence of GPS when you don't have active network access.

Actually... I like it

[Balthisar]

My completed map is gorgeous, but aside from that, why (prior to 4.x) did I waste time trying to Jailbreak and run a GPS tracker in the background? I could have just gotten this data. I wish there were a full-time GPS tracker. Well, one that I had control over.

Google Latitude

[macson_g]

Google is (obviously) doing the same with Android, but they were clever enough to market it as 'service'. It is called Latitude and actually is quite neat.

There is more than that

[Anonymous Coward]

I am just looking into the file.

The database contains also a huge list of access points.

basically it seems that for each and every WiFi network the iPhone "sees" (not only if you join it, and even if the network is hidden)...the toy stores the Mac Address of the access point, timestamp of detection, coordinates (including height and accuracy), speed, ...

See table WiFiLocation
CREATE TABLE WifiLocation (MAC TEXT, Timestamp FLOAT, Latitude FLOAT, Longitude FLOAT, HorizontalAccuracy FLOAT, Altitude FLOAT, VerticalAccuracy FLOAT, Speed FLOAT, Course FLOAT, Confidence INTEGER, PRIMARY KEY (MAC));

Mine contains >50000 entries, basically I have the entire WiFi Map of Milano.... nice but, isn't this what Google was fined for doing ???

Interestingly, each and every iPhone user is doing the same "crime" committed by Google,, but unintentionally (and no, this does not seem to collect packets).

Andrea Cocito

Re:There is more than that

[Anonymous Coward]

no, google was fined for intercepting and storing unencrypted traffic over those hotspots. discovering the hotspots is nbd.

Re:There is more than that

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Google was fined for unintentionally logging too much information from their own cars. The best they could do is provide a list of access points for any particular spot you were in. This reveals no information you couldn't otherwise get by walking by. i.e. If you walked by with a packet sniffer (or even opening your phone's stock wifi connection settings page), you could do the same.

They didn't track each and every user to sell their whereabouts to advertisers. Theoretically, you could do the same but you'd have to stalk someone. =P

Re:There is more than that

[Anonymous Coward]

This could be a massive boon to those open WiFi database websites. Does the table indicate whether the network is unsecured, WEP, WPA, etc?

Re:There is more than that

[omnichad]

This isn't what Google was fined for doing. Google recorded wireless packets for analysis, and unwittingly grabbed tons of data that was being transmitted unencrypted over those unprotected wireless networks.

Re:There is more than that

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Google was fined for sniffing data from those networks and saving it!

Re:There is more than that

[pslam]

Interestingly, each and every iPhone user is doing the same "crime" committed by Google,, but unintentionally (and no, this does not seem to collect packets).

No, Google's "crime" was logging actual packet contents transmitted on open networks. This is just a list of network IDs.

Re:There is more than that

[Anonymous Coward]

nice but, isn't this what Google was fined for doing ???

Interestingly, each and every iPhone user is doing the same "crime" committed by Google,, but unintentionally (and no, this does not seem to collect packets).

No this is not what Google was fined for. Google was fined for all of the other information (basically anything that was being sent over unsecured WiFi and was unencrypted) it "accidentally" collected, not for trying to compile a list of WiFi hotspots. Skyhook, Google and Apple have all been doing this for years. As have others, I'm sure.

So yes this is creepy. Yes Apple should have told us about this. No the information does not appear to be being shared with Apple. And while WiFi/cell tower triangulation can be pretty accurate, these are not actual GPS coordinates which are being stored. Can you imagine the battery drain from constantly firing up the GPS. Apple would never allow that. It's a rough estimate of your location. And it's not without flaws. Mine shows me having gone to Nevada. I can promise you that I've never done that.

Re:There is more than that

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine contains >50000 entries, basically I have the entire WiFi Map of Milano.... nice but, isn't this what Google was fined for doing ???

No, Google actually collected the data flowing over those WiFi networks. I still think the Google thing was overblown since it only involved unencrypted hotspots but this iPhone thing isn't even that bad.

Re:There is more than that

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no connection at all with the Google issue -
  Google was fined for storing the CONTENTS of wireless access point data packets - not their location.

Re:There is more than that

[moonbender]

You can promise all you want, but we have clear evidence to the contrary.

Re:There is more than that

[Anonymous Coward]

If both companies are doing the same thing, there must be something valuable about this kind of information other than just, tracking.

For what purpose is this all for?

Re:There is more than that

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha, after I discovered that apple devices containing only WLAN wireless chips (ipad without 3G, ipod touch) can still determine their approximate location, and it's based on huge database containing MAC addresses of wlan access points and their coordinates, I instantly thought how this database has been collected. "Legitimely" war driving? huge effort like streetview? Or is anyone owning iPhone collecting the access points and their GPS coordinates and submitting them to apple? seems at least the collecting part is true :)

The system being used according to wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyhook_Wireless

It's okay, it's Apple!

[anotheryak]

\begin{sarcasm} It's okay folks, this is Apple we are talking about! You know, the moral company who does everything right. They have products produced by just-above-slave-labor Foxconn in China that people--the very same people who love Apple--would be screaming about if it was Nike or Coca-Cola or (heaven forbid) McDonald's doing the same thing. But this is Apple! Their uber-hip coolness overrides any questionable moral or ethical decisions. When you whip out your iPad in Starbucks, people know that you're the kind of person who thinks like they do. You're instantly on the winning team, out to stop oppression of the masses. And when you tether it to your iPhone, they know you own a Prius or a Subaru. And they have a pretty good guess about your political bumper stickers.... So, it's all good! Apple would never shaft their customers...you can ask the owners of products like the Apple ]I[, the Lisa, or the MacCube if you don't believe me. And when your $1000 Apple Cinema Display is unplugged from it's power brick and destroys the logic board into thinking that the supply is bad, they will accept that it was just Steve Job's way of helping them improve their life with even better Apple technology. Apple owners know this, in the same way that SUV owners learn...if you own a small Chevy SUV that gets 20MPG, you're an evil wasteful meat-eating fascist out to destroy the planet. But if you own a Subaru or Toyota wagon/SUV with the same 20MPG, then you're an environmentalist who should get priority parking. \end{sarcasm}

Mod parent up!

[Anonymous Coward]

This has been comment of the day so far! Funny + Insightful + ironical + factual.

Hell

[C_Kode]

If every app you download does it, the phone might as well too!

many service providers are doing this

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.carrieriq.com they can download a profile to track everything that you and the phone are doing.

What's the problem here?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not your phone, its Steve's phone. Remember that.

Italics don't make things true

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no evidence that this data is being sent to Apple or anyone else.

As the article illustrates, any app you install has easy access to this data.

All I'm saying is that said article doesn't say anything like what you said it says.

Hmmmmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

As a programmer, I can tell you that this is not an accident or something that just happened. No coder (or person delegating work) will spend time coding and creating irrelevant items when deadlines are needing to be met. the fact that it moves from one device to the next to append more data is a real indication of purpose. Anyone who believes that Apple (or any other company for that matter) is without flaw or is 100% genuine is either completely blind to how the real world works or is to arrogant to believe it. This may be something Apple is planning for the future or it may be government endorsed, who knows. It is curious to think about Apple pre and post iPhone. Creating the iPhone and everything that goes with it would be a staggering feat and have an enormous price tag to go with it. The stocks and market share Apple had prior to the iPhone was literally negligible and then they exploded. Makes you wonder

Find my iPhone/iPad

[Jerslan]

Did nobody ever wonder exactly how "Find my iPhone/iPad" worked?

Re:Find my iPhone/iPad

[PPH]

I would assume that the server would interrogate your phone's GPS coordinates at the time that you initiated the request. And that it would report back only the current location. Not a timestamped log of every whorehouse you've visited recently.

Slashdot plan

[PPH]

1) Find hidden file.
2) Generate series of bogus GPS coordinates. This list will contain daily visits to 'your' offfice at the Department of Justice.
3) Replace hidden file with your data.
4) Wait for Apple to upload the bogus report, read it and apologize for their lack of judgement.
5) ?????
6) Profit!

Going to be bashed, but..

[lpp]

It could be an innocent mistake.

There's no indication that any part of iOS or any app access this data directly. Yes, it may be part of Location Services or... .. it might be a vestigial database that was accidentally left in place from earlier revs of iOS when an engineer was doing some testing on the GPS capabilities and forgot to remove it or disable it. Once left in, once it made it into production, it presumably would have been maintained like any other system level database, backed up and carried across to other devices like all the rest.

Why not write an app to generate these files

[Anonymous Coward]

I imagine it wouldn't be hard to replace this with bogus data say from the Santa tracker or the Geo cords from your favotite Celebes pictures...

Not working on Wifi iPads

[Wyatt Earp]

I have 15-20 iPads that sync to my computer, nothing was found when I tried the linked application.

Re:Not working on Wifi iPads

[cmk1523]

see my post below titled "Easy Windows directions"

I don't care...

[FrootLoops]

I don't care if Apple knows where I've been, or if other apps can read this log. Is there some non-paranoid reason I should? Out of millions of customers, is Apple really going to care whatsoever if I went to the bank and then rented some porn? If some unscrupulous government agency wants your current location, triangulation should work on any cell phone anyway, as would logging GPS data.

If I really were scared of the government knowing where I've been, I wouldn't trust Apple's good-naturedness to protect me anyway--that would be moronic. TFA suggests a private detective could catch a cheating spouse with this location data, but that's pretty far over on the paranoid spectrum. So again, why should I care, given that I'm neither cheating nor afraid of the government knowing where I've been?

Re:I don't care...

[FhnuZoag]

If you don't care, would you like to upload your logs to a say mediafire please, so I can have a look at it?

Re:I don't care...

[FrootLoops]

That's not the same situation as an app or Apple having access to location history. It would single me out from the other millions of customers. If the iPhone were used by, say, 20 people and I were one of them, then I would care.

Re:I don't care...

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone can hack into your laptop, grab that file from the hard drive, and know where you hang out. That person could be anyone at all.

Old News

[jellomizer]

I am to lazy to find the link.
But Apple does that and shares the data with AT&T to help them improve their coverage service. Apparently the data is about the phone not the owner. I guess with some heavy data warehousing you can get a match but for the most part they care about in a particular area there are x number of devices that would like to have coverage.

This is unexpected!

[cvtan]

I'm shocked, I tell you, SHOCKED! Long live my Mot W385!

Nonsense!

[unassimilatible]

Next, they'll be sharing it with their 'partners', and using it for direct advertising. You've already agreed to it in the terms.

Obviously you are not an iPhone user, being intentionally disingenuous, or you have not been reading how pissed off the "partners" are about Apple locking up privacy. Any app or content purchase explicitly asks if the purchaser wants to share info, and he must affirmatively approve of it each time. The idea that iPhone users have already agreed to sharing info with partners in advance is total bullshit, and any iPhone user could tell you otherwise.

Re:Nonsense!

[Anonymous Coward]

Try reading the link the parent linked to before commenting. Idiot.

Re:Nonsense!

[errandum]

"To provide location-based services on Apple products, Apple and our partners and licensees may collect, use, and share precise location data, including the real-time geographic location of your Apple computer or device. This location data is collected anonymously in a form that does not personally identify you and is used by Apple and our partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based products and services. For example, we may share geographic location with application providers when you opt in to their location services."

It looks to me like normal people need to ask permission, the partners don't. You're assuming every data is collected by apps in the App Store (who seem to require permission). Apple can get this information and share it with anyone they want, according to the terms of service.

And if you watch the video it actually says at one point that the sqlite database has a unique phone identifier, so it's "anonymous" data.

Google is being investigated for wifi sniffing. It seems Apple is doing exactly that too.

Re:Nonsense!

[joh]

"To provide location-based services on Apple products, Apple and our partners and licensees may collect, use, and share precise location data, including the real-time geographic location of your Apple computer or device. This location data is collected anonymously in a form that does not personally identify you and is used by Apple and our partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based products and services. For example, we may share geographic location with application providers when you opt in to their location services."

Now compare this with Google (AdMob):

"AdMob also collects certain information about visitors to publishers' sites that connect to the AdMob Mobile Services. AdMob will automatically collect and receive information about those visitors such as, but not limited to, browser identifiers, session information, browser cookies, device type, carrier provider, IP addresses, unique device ID, carrier user ID, geo-location information, sites visited and clicks on advertisements we display."

Note the "unique device ID" and "carrier user ID" parts.

The witchhunt against Apple is just disgusting. If you look into the details Apple may have a healthy interest in data collection but they also are (meanwhile) almost examplary cautious when it comes to anonymizing and minimizing individual user data. iAd for example transmits the location data with a random ID that is generated twice daily on the device and then the data is converted to rough zip codes, so that there is no way to track users.

Some people seem to hail Google whatever they do and at the same time just love to stamp Apple in the ground even when Apple is much more careful with what it does. Heil Google! Burn the Jews^WApple! Disgusting, really.

Re:Nonsense!

[errandum]

I opt into that if I use AdMob.

You opt into that if you use an iPhone.

Clearly the same thing

Re:Nonsense!

[eleuthero]

This location data is collected anonymously in a form that does not personally identify you and is used by Apple and our partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based products and services.

The word "anonymously" is important in affirming the gpp.

when you opt in to their location services

The GPP is right in noting that "any iphone user" could confirm that you have to agree to each app having your location. Only a few apps get around this and are usually removed from the app store as soon as Apple is informed. They are very tight with their user information--consider the ad information and subscriber data issue that has been hacking off publishers of magazines. Yes, Apple is gathering data. Yes, they share it with the world. No, they don't tell everyone exactly where you (individually) are at any given moment without your permission--a little popup comes up and asks if the app in question can have your user data (or... if you keep reading their terms of use, with appropriate requests from government).

Re:Nonsense!

[Anonymous Coward]

This location data is collected anonymously in a form that does not personally identify you and is used by Apple and our partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based products and services.

The word "anonymously" is important in affirming the gpp.

It's location data. How 'anonymous' can it be its tracking you at home? Is this AOL-style 'anonymous'?

Yes, Apple is gathering data. Yes, they share it with the world. No, they don't tell everyone exactly where you (individually) are at any given moment without your permission

The first two sentences you've said there make the last redundant.

Re:Nonsense!

[AmiMoJo]

They don't have to share the actual data, just allow partners to make use of it. A company could buy advertising to be delivered when the phone is near one of its competitors shops, or ask Apple which advertising boards get the most passers-by during rush hour. I bet the prospect of knowing how many customers see something in their store but immediately check out prices online and competitors has marketers all excited.

Somewhat similar to what Google does with Adwords except that Apple uses your position as well.

Re:Nonsense!

[Yer Mom]

You "opt in" to AdMob by visiting a page which has an AdMob ad on it (or by using an app that contains AdMob advertising).

Generally, you're given as much advance notice of that as an iPhone user would have got of this data collection. Granted, you're more aware after the fact, but your data has still been collected without consent...

Re:Nonsense!

[Anonymous Coward]

Do your homework, re-read the license terms, wake up from being a dipshit zealot.

Re:Nonsense!

[errandum]

You actually can chose if you want to facilitate your position to the browser (it asks) and same thing with any app. If it asks for your location when you're installing a game, think twice before you chose.

The whole point os moot though, it seems some android phones also collect data (although it is harder to access and requires a rooted phone to do so).

Oh please

[unassimilatible]

Just like there are subsets of tall, small, white, round, up, los angeles. I guess the GP's native language is not english.

Diction lessons from the guy who didn't capitalize Los Angeles or English, no less. The use of the word "evil" to describe something you disagree with or even disapprove off is not a proper use of the word evil, bub. I mean, seriously, it isn't even illegal to save this info. At least prove it's being abused, as opposed to the potential for misuse.

Re:Oh please

[parens]

I don't think legality, or lack thereof, is a prerequisite for something being evil.

Re:Oh please

[Belial6]

disapprove off

This is why it is a always a bad idea to be a spelling/grammar Nazi. You always end up being a hypocrite. The parent poster's comment was criticizing content of your post, which was worthy of criticism.

You don't even seem to understand the difference between illegal and evil. Here is a hint. They are not synonymous.

Project Guardian

[metrometro]

As much as I hate to admit that the crazies are right, these things really are Stalin's wet dream: mobile devices are a wonderland of surveillance hardware. It's past time to push back on this, hard. That means two things:

1) free and open-source operating systems and
2) a public policy framework that makes this kind of data logging so terrifying and risky for companies that they really would prefer you to have control over your phone.

Here's the best shot I've seen at the software side of this:
http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2011/04/for-paranoid-androids-guardian-project-supplies-smartphone-security.ars

So? You're being lo-jacked 24 hrs a day anyways

[romanval]

It doesn't matter if you have a smartphone, dumbphone, iphone, or not iphone...Every active cell phone is tracked to a cell tower at any moment, and it's recorded in the carrier's database and retained for several years. That info is easily subpoenaed by government officials (law enforcement, DHS, FBI, etc) for any kind of investigation.

The same goes for any text message you send or receive, it's all retained for years. So on the grand scale of the actual phone keeping such data.. that's not a big deal as long as it's not exposed to any 3rd party apps.

bad example

[romanval]

Every active cell phone is tracked to a cell tower location at every moment, and it's recorded in the carrier's database and retained for several years. That info is easily subpoenaed by government officials (law enforcement, DHS, FBI, etc) for any investigation as they see fit.

It doesn't matter of it's a smartphone or dumbphone... it's every cell phone. The fact that the phone may or may not retain such info is irrelevant, since the carriers already have that info anyways.

5 mod points for this mornic post?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Apple is more evil than the neighborhood bully" gets 5 mod points? My god, you /.'ers are idiots.

On Slashdot, "good" equals that which I agree with, and "evil" is anything I disagree with. Lametard virgins.

Re:5 mod points for this mornic post?

[Belial6]

No, it doesn't. You are going to be hard pressed to find anyone on Slashdot that is going to honestly claim that someone complementing American Idol is "evil". A few people might joke about it, but no one is seriosly going to claim that it is evil.

On the other hand, huge international corporations secretly tracking their customers is quite literally Hollywod movie villain evil.

Re:5 mod points for this mornic post?

[jc42]

On Slashdot, "good" equals that which I agree with, and "evil" is anything I disagree with. Lametard virgins.

On Slashdot? I thought those were the definitions in General English.

They need access to your computer or your iPhone

[SilverJets]

In that case I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here and figure if they have access to my computer or iPhone they already know where I am.

And before anyone gets their panties in a twist that was slightly tongue-in-cheek. I don't like the idea of my phone recording my GPS coordinates at all.

What about eBay buyers? No password needed.

[Kamiza Ikioi]

So you're telling me if someone physically steals my phone or computer, and is able to break the passwords, they can see private info about me? NFW!

I assure you all that if someone were to do that, I'd have a lot more to worry about than my PC or phone giving up my travel habits.

Or your wife knows where you went. Or the person you sell the phone to on email finds out where you live, where you work, where you vacation, and when the best time to break into your house is. Or police. Nothing to hide? Sure, if you are a US citizen, no so lucky if you use an iPhone in China or Iran, and they use it to find all the protester gathering locations.

Never blame on maliciousness what can be blamed...

[Kamiza Ikioi]

... on stupidity. I was thinking more Animal Farm, not 1984. The pigs in Animal Farm show much the same arrogance as the leaders of Apple.

Apples 1984 commercial was the first thing I thought of as well. The irony is almost too much to bear.

RMS validated again.

[Beelzebud]

Stallman has spoken many times about how cell phones could be used as a tracking device. Once again, he's proven more insightful than the people that point fingers at him and make lame jokes.

iPod app connects to iTunes.com during playback

[GamesOver]

This hasn't been covered yet and I doubt that this information is being logged directly on the device.

I noticed that after upgrading iPhone4 to iOS 4.3.1, that the iPod app would attempt to connect to multiple iTunes servers while I was listening to a MP3 that I purchased on Amazon.com. (This background connection didn't occur when was using iOS 4.1.) I'm not sure why a connection needs to be made to the iTunes server to play a song locally on the device that wasn't purchased from their proprietary store. I'm not sure what data is being sent as I've been too busy to research it. I searched Google and haven't found any information regarding this. I used "Firewall IP" (a jailbreak app) to block the unauthorized reporting of this playback information. (Apple may have authorized this connection, but I don't.)

Carriers record the location history on all phones

[IVI V K]

Regardless of your phone, the mobile phone carriers are storing your location history by cell towers...

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/03/26/179257/German-Politician-Demonstrates-Extent-of-Cellphone-Location-Tracking
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/business/media/26privacy.html

Nice try, troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, little troll, your link has NOTHING to do with sharing info with partners. Idiot. So back into mom's basement you go.

Old News... Makes sense (liability wise)

[tomweeks]

Wireless providers have been storing triangulated data centrally for years. It was just never a) disclosed and b) stored on the handset. I can see why they do it on the handset.. 1) it's cheaper (storage/data wise) and 2) less liability (centralized hack/break ins/leaks, etc). This just validates many of Richard Stallman's base concerns about technology that you don't control. And Arthur Weasley's open source truism (from "Harry Potter"), "Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain." ;)

Tweeks

Disable Location Services...

[Anonymous Coward]

...and see if the data persist. Or sniff the connection to see what's passed.

Since iOS 3.2, Apple started using their own location database instead of contracting out to Skyhook for the service. They might use iPhones to update their location information on the fly by correlating GPS location data with nearby wifi base station info.

Never cared enough to check it out completely. After all, any wireless device that can determine its own location can also reveal that location to others. Don't use mobile devices, if that risk is a problem.

Read your own post

[unassimilatible]

"To provide location-based services on Apple products, Apple and our partners and licensees may collect, use, and share precise location data, including the real-time geographic location of your Apple computer or device. This location data is collected anonymously in a form that does not personally identify you and is used by Apple and our partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based products and services. For example, we may share geographic location with application providers when you opt in to their location services."

As I said in GP post, you have to affirmatively opt in for partners to get info. They do not get it automatically via Apple's TOS.

Re:Read your own post

[agallagh42]

As I said in GP post, you have to affirmatively opt in for partners to get info. They do not get it automatically via Apple's TOS.

There's a difference between "application providers" and "partners". Apps need to request permission for location data, but Apple can directly sell that data to anyone they want.

Most users wouldn't care

[shadowrat]

iphone users seem pretty happy to share this information anyway. they post geocoded pictures to twitter and facebook. they check in on foursquare and countless other networks. I think one of the main desires of the majority of iphone's demographic is to constantly share this information.

It seems more like a sound architectural decision than an evil ulterior motive. If you have an audience of geolocation-sharing hungry consumers, it seems reasonable that your product would keep a log of locations.

If you don't want anyone to be able to find out anything about you, i don't think it's wise to get any cell phone to begin with.

RMS was right!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Stallman recommends not owning a mobile phone, as he believes the tracking of cell phones creates harmful privacy issues"

Tinfoil hat?

No warrant required for cell location tracking

[romanval]

Cell phones locations are tracked even when they're not at use; the carriers that are keeping that record. And they don't even need a warrant to get get those records.

Looks like it doesn't track 100% accurately

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm from Europe and I traveled to Brazil a couple months ago. Connected to several hotel Wi-Fis with my iPad for about 1 month.

I never synced with my Mac because I used a netbook there. I see zero points tracked with the iPhoneTracker app.

Strange thing.

Not terribly accurate

[Anonymous Coward]

Fortunately this data isn't very accurate. It is obviously using some sort of cell tower ID which isn't very accurate. I followed the instructions, it seems to be accurate enough to tell what city you're in, but not much more than that.

WifiLocation more accurate

[Anonymous Coward]

On second thoughts, this is a lot worse than I thought. The WifiLocation data is much more accurate than the CellTower data. This shows everything way back to the shopping mall where I first bought my iPhone.

Re:Minor correction

[InvisiBill]

Thanks for the info. Minor correction, it's /var/root/Library/Caches/locationd/consolidated.db.

It's simple

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not your phone, its Steve's phone.

Has no one heard of Loopt?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Loopt worked out a deal with AT&T to pull location data for a monthly fee because of the pre-existing background service limitations on the iPhone. AT&T's been tracking iPhones for years...why is this news?

Cloud backup! Time to phone home!

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't wait for the Apple "cloud" backup service for their phones, which then sends all of this data back to them. Schemey....

Info in here

[joh]

http://markey.house.gov/docs/applemarkeybarton7-12-10.pdf (around page 6)

This file does *not* track you. It tracks WiFi access points (and maybe cellphone towers). The data is used both by the OS for location services and for random users at random intervals by Apple to optimize their WiFi landmark databases. In this case iTunes asks you to transfer the file back to Apple (which you can accept or deny).

BTW, I'm totally disgusted by the witchhunt reflex here. Is this "News for Nerds" or "Lynchmob United"?

My DB is empty

[swillden]

The application gives me an error about being unable to find the file, but if I identify and locate it manually and open it up with sqlite manager I see that I have the database, and the table, but there are 0 rows in it.

Maybe this feature is disabled on the iPhone 4?

Wow Apple knows where i have been

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is a map of New England showing everywhere i have traveled! This is scary http://i53.tinypic.com/2vkf1uc.png

Not news

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

http://blog.csvance.com/?p=39 - heck, on their webpage they even have a link that Googles for "consolidated.db iphone", that finds dozens of pages dating back to September last year. Look Ma, I just discovered the Moon!

Probably for fast GPS startup

[Colin Smith]

GPS's take ages to start without a bit of a hint from some other database, so this is probably their solution to speeding up location based services.

Having said that... WTF? All it would need is the last recorded position. I bet some genius simply couldn't resist going all Big Brother.
 

Funny you should mention it..

[Anonymous Coward]

I just got an 'attaboy' from this super-hot girl I've been into for a long time and got with my boss. I can't say I'm very happy about either.

Grow up.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do any of the adolescents here raving about loss of privacy even understand that the datapoints are stored ON THEIR OWN PHONE and the computer with which they sync, and NOT on Apple's servers? Or are they so wrapped up in Big Brother conspiracies that they think Apple gives a enough of a shit about their locations to waste storage space logging their trips to the comic book store, head shop, or skateboard park?

Don't Normally Care

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm normally not concerned with these articles from /. because you all blow things out of proportion, but this is legitimately fucked up.

I will never, ever will own an iPhone again.

Easy Windows directions

[cmk1523]

On a Windows system, try the following:

1. Find your iphone data files in the following location on a Windows system: C:\Users\[USERNAME]\AppData\Roaming\Apple Computer\MobileSync\Backup\[FOLDER]. Where [USERNAME] is your windows logon username and [FOLDER] could be any iphone/ipad device you've ever synced with that version of Windows. For example, I have three different folders for three different devices.
2. Locate the file named "4096c9ec676f2847dc283405900e284a7c815836" or at least it should begin with "4096...". It should also be the biggest file in the folder.
3. Download "SQLite Manager" for firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/sqlite-manager/ and open the "4096..." file.
4. In "SQLite Manager", expand "Tables" and click on a table, and on the right side, select the "browse and search" tab to see if you have any data (you should!). For me, the big ones were:
a. "CellLocation"
b. "CellLocationHarvest"
c. "LocationHarvest"
d. "WifiLocation"
e. "WifiLocationHarvest"
5. On the right side of "SQLite Manager", click on the Export Wizard tab.
6. Select the table you want under the "Name of the table" field, select the check box called "First row contains column names", and click OK. At this point, you can now open that .csv file as in Excel or whatever.
7. Go to: http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/
8. Under "Upload a GPS file:", select the .csv file, and click GO. If your file is not too big, it should plot all your locations.
9. If the website complains your file is too big, open the .csv file in excel and delete all the columns except for Latitude and Longitude. Save, and load again with the website.

A Small Novel

[Nom du Keyboard]

The IOS4 user agreement is over 15,000 words. There are books shorter than that for sale on Amazon. Your challenge is to find the 86 words that allow Apple to do this.

In truth, such unreadable license agreements SHOULD BE BANNED OUTRIGHT! If you can't say it in, oh say, 2,000 words then you can't inflict it on your customers - end of discussion.

Re:A Small Novel

[Anonymous Coward]

The IOS4 user agreement is over 15,000 words.

No. The iPhone Software License Agreement is around 3,000 words. What you see here is much longer because it includes the iTunes Store Terms of Service, and the Google Maps and YouTube terms and conditions (note that the last two are Google products, not Apple's). But even the whole document is less than 12,000 words, or 20% less than what you claim

There are books shorter than that for sale on Amazon.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. And even if you can find them, do note that most people will not consider something under 20 pages a "book".

In truth, such unreadable license agreements SHOULD BE BANNED OUTRIGHT!

Yeah, I agree with that. But then they would have to ban outright frivolous lawsuits and most of what most lawyers do for a living (which would be fine with me).

- end of discussion.

Please don't ever say that. There is always room for discussion. When I see someone finishing their comments with "end of discussion" or "period" I get an overwhelming desire to prove them wrong and bring their arrogance a notch down, even when I agree with the gist of what they are saying.

Replace the file with a symlink?

[teh dave]

I found the file on my phone, as another commenter posted it is in /var/root/Library/Caches/locationd/consolidated.db. I also found one in /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreLocation.framework/Support/consolidated.db that is five times as big. It also seems to contain location data from cell as well as WiFi APs. I wonder what that file is for?

Hmm. Even though my approximate whereabouts are available to law enforcement should they demand it from my carrier, I'd still rather not have the phone recording my every move. I wonder if I could rename the file and create a symlink to /dev/null in its place? I'd do it right now and find out what breaks, and rename the file back again if I kill something but I don't want to brick the phone and have to worry about restoring etc... rather keep my jailbreak.

any GSM modem can get it

[cheekyboy]

Dude, there are AT commands to list *ALL* cell towers in range, the phone always knows its position.

The db levels are always known for each tower.

The info about its toweres ID is known.

The info about how many 'packets' away the tower is known every second.

Overall accuracy is not like GPS but isnt bad, and get be good when used while you are moving.

No power is used.

Even a 1997 GSM phone has at commands to get this data, but only now we have the power/storage to Store and compute Lat/Long.

Go google 'at commands for cell tower info'

I even used this my self years ago to record cell tower codes to a rolling CSV file every 10 seconds.

Windows?

[guspasho]

I sync my phone on a PC. Is there a PC version of the iPhone Tracker tool?

Carriers are doing this since ever...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are you all acting like shocked 16-years old virgins here?

Carriers are tracking every single cellphone location since ever and that's where the fed go for data. There's at least one very famous and very respected security researcher that has always been saying that a cellphone is big brother's ultimate location tool.

You don't want to be tracked? Don't take your cellphone everywhere. That simple.

Oh, btw, in quite a lot of cities your license plates are automatically recognized and the location of your car hence tracked quite nicely too.

3G cards makers like the chinese are doing the same : spying as much as they can on you and sending their shitty formatted XML reports back to them.

Don't carry your cellphone everywhere. It's refreshing, you'll see how free you feel.

Btw I'm not anti-tech: I've got a cool cellphone, laptop + 3G so I can be always connected to the Internet if I want to, etc.

But once in a while I take time "for me", without any carrier / phone maker / chinese company knowing where I am.

WIFI geo location too, READ THE TABLES

[cheekyboy]

Dude, the iPod uses wifi geo location services.

Look at the sql table theres a WifiLocation table too. Bigger than the CellLocation in my iphone.

Ultimate trojan

[redelm]

Informative, thank you. This device, and Apple software probably constitute "unauthorized access to a computer", a felony in the US and most countries. Any evidence directly or subsequently discovered in the US would be tainted "fruit of the poisoned vine".

I'm very surprised corporate lawyers at Apple & elsewhere would OK such an install without strong assurances from some govt agency like FCC, FBI, etc. Not that such assurances have any legal weight or would hold up in court. Maybe there some carefully obscured text in the Federal Register authorizing such.

Of course, Apple would try the defense "its part of the OS which was authorized", and then would be challenged what function necessary function it performed. If they couldn't prove it was necessary to the OS, then it would be a separate item needing user autherization. Doubtfully forthcoming except in the case of some [lacking] parents.

Secret police

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple = Gestapo/secret police

    e.g. location; and locking out jail breaked phones.
    The customer is not a person more the customer is a tool for them.

Bogus data

[RogueWarrior65]

Well I tried this beasty just now and I'm finding several problems with the data. A) Bogus data points, B) Incorrect time stamps and C) a whole lot of missing data. Fundamentally, this is troubling but IMHO, given the wildly inaccurate data, it would get shot to hell in court.

AppleInsider Reports This is a Bug

[NicknamesAreStupid]

Yes, a bug -- See article I guess the bug knows how to write files.

INBIFS - Its Not bug its a Feature Stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple touts location tacking as a feature and vows to provide API access to all iOS developers.

Re:pecadilloes

[TaoPhoenix]

Nah. I just spend my days realizing that as always xkcd is ahead of me once again.

http://m.xkcd.com/305/
http://xkcd.com/596/

Also logged data survives phone wipes!

[Anonymous Coward]

My iPhone 3G used to belong to a colleague. I've just checked out my location logs and it clearly shows all of his trips to his inlaws etc. Places I've never even been too

Iphone Tracker for Windows

[raph1707]

My tool is available for Windows to see hidden data your phone collects ! It's there : http://www.raphaelabitbol.info/2011/04/22/iphone-tracker-sous-windows/ Thx all !

Are you kidding?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd probably care if the information was anywhere near accurate. Mine has ignored whole countries hemispheres apart and the granularity is based only on proximity to a tx/rx point not on any sort of triangulated location. If Steve wants to "wow" me he is going to have to do a whole lot better than this.