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Proposed Mercury Ban Threatens Vaccines

T Murphy writes "Although in the draft stages, a treaty being pushed by the United Nations Environment Programme has a blanket ban on mercury. While the ban would stop the use of mercury in paints or pesticides, it currently has no exemptions to allow for other small uses, such as in thermisol, which is used as a preservative in vaccines. The next meeting to discuss this treaty will be at the end of October."

383 comments

  1. Nothing to see here.... by Pharmboy · · Score: 3, Informative

    Does anyone really believe that the final draft would include a total ban, even for vaccines? I didn't think so. Sounds like more hype than fact, and an article for the sake of having an article on the part of the Chicago Tribune.

    --
    Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    1. Re:Nothing to see here.... by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      Like saying chlorine is poisonous so it should be banned and then cracking down on the importation of salt; this treaty shows a profound lack of chemistry and biology education.

    2. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Gideon+Wells · · Score: 2

      These are politicians. I had all optimism for intelligent thought from politicians slowly drained away since 2000. I wouldn't be surprised at this point if the final draft included a total ban on dihydrodren monoxide.

      --
      by Anonymous Coward: I, for one, welcome the shift from car analogies to pizza analogies. um.. overlords?
    3. Re:Nothing to see here.... by JBMcB · · Score: 5, Informative

      IAMNAC....A lot of autism cases have been traced to use of Mercury in vaccines during early childhood.

      No they haven't.

      Since Mercury was retired from Baby/Toddlers, cases have started to recede.

      No they haven't.

      --
      My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    4. Re:Nothing to see here.... by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 5, Informative

      A lot of autism cases have been traced to use of Mercury in vaccines during early childhood.

      So far, no credible study has ever shown a link between the vaccinations and autism.

      --

      How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
    5. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All that has been completely debunked, you anti-science sack of loser. Go read your Bible by candlelight, scumbag.

    6. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [Citation Needed]

    7. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Stumbles · · Score: 1

      No its not like that at all. You cannot have salt without chlorine but you CAN have a vaccine without mercury.

      --
      My karma is not a Chameleon.
    8. Re:Nothing to see here.... by ackthpt · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A lot of autism cases have been traced to use of Mercury in vaccines during early childhood.

      So far, no credible study has ever shown a link between the vaccinations and autism.

      Yes, but incredible non-study has linked bobble-head medi-uh personalities with spurious claims.

      A lie can run around the world while truth is still getting its boots on.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    9. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Kill this comment with fire.

      Those studies were refuted, the article in Lancet retracted, the author (Andrew Wakefield) thoroughly discredited, multiple stories in mainstream news were published to this effect, and yet the damage done by his "research" persists.

      fferreres, go look up a couple articles on Andrew Wakefield. That is the guy whose kool-aid you are drinking. Here's a tidbit from Wikipedia:

      "A 2004 investigation by Sunday Times reporter Brian Deer identified undisclosed financial conflicts of interest on Wakefield's part, and most of his coauthors then withdrew their support for the study's interpretations. The British General Medical Council (GMC) conducted an inquiry into allegations of misconduct against Wakefield and two former colleagues... a five-member statutory tribunal of the GMC found some three dozen charges proved, including four counts of dishonesty and 12 counts involving the abuse of developmentally challenged children. The panel ruled that Wakefield had "failed in his duties as a responsible consultant", acted both against the interests of his patients, and "dishonestly and irresponsibly" in his published research."

    10. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      I had all optimism for intelligent thought from politicians slowly drained away since 2000.

      You realize they are not actually stupid, right? They just don't give a shit about you or yours. They are more successful than you. They are more powerful than you. They can fuck with your life anytime they want. They get money and whores and favors left and right. Hell, they probably *love* the idea you just consider them stupid.

    11. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There might be other undiscovered ways to use mercury that do more good than harm. A blanket ban with only an exception for vaccine means we put a block on future discoveries since people won't be able to experiment with the substance.

    12. Re:Nothing to see here.... by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      These are politicians. I had all optimism for intelligent thought from politicians slowly drained away since 2000. I wouldn't be surprised at this point if the final draft included a total ban on dihydrodren monoxide.

      Yeah, once some area of American industry is threatened with Change they rally their guard dogs in government to obstruct the scary monster.

      That in itself is tragic, because it ensures innovation will not happen in America, but elsewhere. It's entrenching and backward thinking protectionism at its ugliest.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    13. Re:Nothing to see here.... by MozeeToby · · Score: 5, Informative

      A lot of autism cases have been traced to use of Mercury in vaccines during early childhood.

      No, they haven't; in fact not a single case has been. One crank researcher being paid by anti-vaccine lawyers made that assertion in a fraudulent study of 12 self selected children who were already exhibiting signs of autism before the study started. Since then, every major piece of research has shown no link between vaccines of any kind and autism.

      Since Mercury was retired from Baby/Toddlers, cases have started to recede.

      Nope, autism rates have remained steady or increased when mercury was removed from vaccines. Children who don't receive vaccines are no more or less likely to develop autism than children that do. Children in places where mercury has been removed or vaccines discontinued have the same rates of autism as before.

      What makes you believe that mercury would[sic][I assume you mean 'should'?] be FORCIBLY injected in bloodstrems of our nation?

      Because it makes delivery of vaccines to rural areas possible, reduces the risk of infections caused by spoiled vaccines, and has been demonstrated to be safe.

      Mercury makes you more stupid, doesn't have any benefit, stays in the bloodstream for ever.

      As I said it makes preservation without refridgeration possible, making vaccines safer to ship and store, especially in rural areas (not as much of a problem in modern US granted). Atomic mercury does indeed cause brain damage and stays int he body long term, atomic mercury is not what is used in vaccines. The compound in vaccines is not retained by the way elemental mercury is, it has a halflife of 18 days (it's actually removed from the brain even faster than that) and it does not interact biologically the same way elemental mercury does. You may as well avoid salt since Sodium and Chlorine are both poisonous

      It's also been found that most people have more mercury in their blood than is normal, and today, many are even advising avoiding things like Tuna for this very same reason: the seas have more mercury floating, so fish that lives linger, accumulates more mercury. This is the reason many people look for Fish Oil supplements that have a process for removing most of the mercury, or look for produce from seas that don't (yet) suffer largerly from this problem.

      This is a global problem, caused by coal fired power plants and has little, if anything to do with the mercury in vaccines controversy beyond trying to establish the boogeyman. Actually, though, maybe this can help understanding. The amount of mercury in a typical vaccines, contains as much mercury as 50 grams of tuna. Even pregnant women and children can eat a can of tuna a couple times a week without being exposed to dangerous levels of mercury.

    14. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      There should be an alternative to Vaccines. We are getting vaccines every year, and the numbers is steadily going up. I don't like injecting Mercury in my blood to avoid a flu once every few years.

      There ARE alternatives to mercury; there's several preservatives that don't have any mercury in them, and some vaccines do use them. The problem is only money; they cost slightly more, so of course corporations, being cheap bastards, don't want to use them, and it's hard to find the mercury-free vaccines. It's just like lead-free paint; people stuck with that crap for way too long before finally banning it and switching to latex, and these days we can't imagine using leaded paint, while modern latex paint looks brilliant.

      Personally, I just skip the flu shots. I don't need any more crap in my body than I already eat from our contaminated food, and I'm young enough that I never catch the flu.

    15. Re:Nothing to see here.... by MozeeToby · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The point, which I thought was obvious, is that the chlorine is salt is not toxic. Similar to how the mercury in vaccines is not toxic. It is silly to try to extrapolate the chemical behavior of a molecule based on the behavior of the elements that make it up. Otherwise we could all breath water (plenty of oxygen in there right?) or use it to inflate a blimp (with all that hydrogen). Not to mention the fact that even if the mercury in vaccines were bioavailable and had a long half life, the amounts we are talking about are so tiny that you can easily ingest more mercury from a can of tuna than from a years worth of vaccines.

    16. Re:Nothing to see here.... by NFN_NLN · · Score: 1

      Like saying chlorine is poisonous so it should be banned and then cracking down on the importation of salt; this treaty shows a profound lack of chemistry and biology education.

      Think of the most absurd and ridiculous proposal you can... and an American politician has probably already proposed it:

      "New York restaurants face salt ban in new health bill... causing chefs' blood pressure to soar"

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1257414/New-York-restaurants-face-salt-ban-new-health--causing-chefs-blood-pressure-soar.html

    17. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not at all what hes saying. Hes saying just because thimerisol == mercury because it has mercury in it, like salt has the properties of chlorine (a poisonous gas) just because it has chlorine in it.

    18. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not specifying "we only want good vaccines," it's specifying "we don't want mercury because it's bad."

      Water is incredibly poisonous in certain situations, let's ban that too!

    19. Re:Nothing to see here.... by friedo · · Score: 5, Informative

      It is not "hard to find" mercury-free vaccines. Thimerosal has not been used in vaccines in Western nations in decades (with one or two rare exceptions) because better preservatives have been found. It is used in vaccines bought by developing and impoverished nations, because it's cheaper. And it has been proven repeatedly to be safe.

    20. Re:Nothing to see here.... by MozeeToby · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's not nontoxic because you put it in a vaccines, it's nontoxic because it's part of the molecule C9H9HgNaO2S.

    21. Re:Nothing to see here.... by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      Like saying chlorine is poisonous so it should be banned and then cracking down on the importation of salt; this treaty shows a profound lack of chemistry and biology education.

      Think of the most absurd and ridiculous proposal you can... and an American politician has probably already proposed it:

      "New York restaurants face salt ban in new health bill... causing chefs' blood pressure to soar"

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1257414/New-York-restaurants-face-salt-ban-new-health--causing-chefs-blood-pressure-soar.html

      I think the ban is on Sodium Chloride - try cooking with Sea salt.

      Meanwhile, I'd like a ban on Monosodium Glutamate (MSG) in restaurants - too many apply the "Essence of Flavor" with a tablespoon (and often will lie about using it at all, when asked) and what MSG does is modify your body chemistry to register flavors more strongly - if that isn't unethical then I give up.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    22. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      IAMNAC....A lot of autism cases have been traced to use of Mercury in vaccines during early childhood. Since Mercury was retired from Baby/Toddlers, cases have started to recede. What makes you believe that mercury would be FORCIBLY injected in bloodstrems of our nation? Mercury makes you more stupid, doesn't have any benefit, stays in the bloodstream for ever. It's also been found that most people have more mercury in their blood than is normal, and today, many are even advising avoiding things like Tuna for this very same reason: the seas have more mercury floating, so fish that lives linger, accumulates more mercury. This is the reason many people look for Fish Oil supplements that have a process for removing most of the mercury, or look for produce from seas that don't (yet) suffer largerly from this problem.

      There should be an alternative to Vaccines. We are getting vaccines every year, and the numbers is steadily going up. I don't like injecting Mercury in my blood to avoid a flu once every few years.

      Mercury in vaccines and the relationship to autism has been one of the most studied medical items in the past two decades and the results, shown over and over again is that there is 0 link between the two. Better reporting of autism statistics is one of the reason. Another is the definition of autism has been expanded.

      Linking autism to mercury in vaccines is just bad math (statistics). There is a very strong relationship to the increase in reported autism cases since the 1960s and the increased consumption of McDonalds french fries over the same period. Both grew at a large rate over the same time period, but nobody claims that french fries cause autism.

      It is basic human nature to want to blame somebody else when your child is sick or diagnosed with something like autism. While understandable, blaming the vaccine only discourages others from getting immunized which has a much greater health risk for the population.

    23. Re:Nothing to see here.... by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

      The article mentions that thiomersal (I really got that word wrong in the summary) is no longer used in children's vaccines in US/Canada, and has similar resistance in Scandanavia. While I doubt thiomersal will end up being banned here, given precedent it can't be ruled out.

    24. Re:Nothing to see here.... by spidrw · · Score: 1

      They did it in 2009 with asthma inhalers as part of the Montreal Protocol to remove all traces of CFCs. The new propellant they put in them created a new drug (even though it had the same active ingredient) and BAM - no more affordable generics on the market for 10-20 years. So don't think they'll let it slide just 'because of the children'.

    25. Re:Nothing to see here.... by MoonBuggy · · Score: 1

      I'd say the majority aren't stupid, although most seem to be scientifically illiterate, which is a serious issue in itself. That said, there are definitely a few charismatic idiots in the group too, not to mention a couple who have managed to take "YOU MUST OBEY ME BECAUSE I'M LOUD!" to its logical conclusion.

      My point is, it's a mixed bag; they aren't all evil geniuses with no care for humanity, they aren't all drooling morons, and to classify them all under either heading just makes them harder to deal with.

    26. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      It's a spectrum of narcissistic sociopathy. The methods vary, but the end game is the same, the end game being "Mine, mine, all mine!"

    27. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Do you want an honest answer on that? I mean, you're assuming that someone involved in that process has both common sense and the appropriate knowledge to understand why such an exception is important... With politicians, that's a fairly large stretch.... I mean, a bunch of people wanted to ban it after that idiot claimed thermisol caused autism. Even now that his study has been thoroughly discredited, people still fear it and associate it with autism...

      On a side note, cool, I know one of the docs they interviewed for the article!

    28. Re:Nothing to see here.... by jameskojiro · · Score: 0

      What I think is that some people can process mercury from their systems better than others, those who couldn't filter it out effectively due to their genetics would not beable to get rid of it fast enough to prevent it from seeping through the blood brain narrier and thus causing neurological issues.

      Since the Human brain in childhood has a far greater ability for regeneration the damage done by mercury was repaired and in cases of autism maybe the process was overzelous leading to autisim.

      Also there is a big difference between how elemental mercury and mercury compounds react in the body. Maybe the kids that get autism from vaccines have an ensyme that breaks down the relatively inert mercury into a form that is more toxic to neural tissue?

      --
      Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
    29. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Tr3vin · · Score: 1

      You may want to check on the toxicity of Thiomersal. While I'm not saying that it causes autism, saying it is nontoxic is just as invalid.

    30. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I'm sure there's plenty of undiscovered uses for mercury that can be perfectly safe. After all, we have all kinds of industrial processes that are perfectly safe because we've designed them that way; instead of humans handling the toxic products directly, they're handled by automated equipment in sealed enclosures, etc. Just look at nuclear power plants; it's not like the control rods are handled directly by humans. Bans should always be very focused on particular instances of things that are harmful and need to be stopped to protect society.

    31. Re:Nothing to see here.... by john.r.strohm · · Score: 1

      Correct observation, wrong assumed cause.

      The following is first-person data. I personally have been watching this, for several years now.

      In the US, a Ventolin (tm) albuterol inhaler costs, retail, about US$60.

      In Bangkok, Thailand, that *SAME* Ventolin (tm) albuterol (although they call it salbutamol) inhaler costs 270 baht, which is about US$9.

      The prescription MDIs could be "affordable", but probably not under the US prescription system.

    32. Re:Nothing to see here.... by alannon · · Score: 1

      You think that sea salt isn't (almost) entirely made up of sodium chloride?

    33. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually that would solve a lot of problems. Of course our elected representatives should do a pilot among themselves before passing it. I believe a period of oh... one week should be sufficient.

    34. Re:Nothing to see here.... by NFN_NLN · · Score: 1

      I think the ban is on Sodium Chloride - try cooking with Sea salt.

      Meanwhile, I'd like a ban on Monosodium Glutamate (MSG) in restaurants - too many apply the "Essence of Flavor" with a tablespoon (and often will lie about using it at all, when asked) and what MSG does is modify your body chemistry to register flavors more strongly - if that isn't unethical then I give up.

      They can ban sodium chloride along with "dihydrogen monoxide" for all I care but get your damn dirty ape hands away from my sea salt and spring water...

    35. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 2

      I don't care who but one (or both) of you should really cite references. Otherwise you two just sound like a couple of ignorant folk spewing opinions held while not having any basis in reality.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    36. Re:Nothing to see here.... by mjr167 · · Score: 1

      Then don't get the flu shot. It's optional. Lots of people don't get the flu shot and are perfectly healthy. Almost as if their body has a way of fighting diseases on its own... Granted some people don't have that ability so probably need a little help, but the vast majority of the population is perfectly capable of not getting the flu without the shot.

    37. Re:Nothing to see here.... by moortak · · Score: 3, Funny

      If only there were a way to compare the rates of autism in populations given vaccines with thiomersal and those not given it. Oh wait, they have and there was no difference.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    38. Re:Nothing to see here.... by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      That's both technically true and so completely misleading that it is effectively a bald-faced lie. Here are some facts:

      • The "one or two exceptions" includes the U.S. multi-person dose of seasonal flu shots to this day (Source: CDC.
      • These days, about 43% of U.S. adults get the flu shot (source: USA Today)
      • I can't find any reputable source to indicate what percentage of people get their flu shots from a multi-dose (thimerosal-laden) container. However, several anti-vaccine sites say 90%, and I'm inclined to suspect that this is in the ballpark given that in many years of getting flu shots from multiple sources, I've never seen a single-dose container.

      Thus, more than a third of U.S. adults get a shot containing thimerosal in any given year. That's about ninety million people. Admittedly, that's only about 2% of the adults on the planet, but again, that's 2% every year.

      The CDC is working to try to eliminate thimerosal from the flu vaccine, but it hasn't happened yet, and probably won't happen for several more years (at least).

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    39. Re:Nothing to see here.... by thejuggler · · Score: 1

      Toxic (poisonous) is in the size of the dose. Many things are toxic or poisonous to humans in a large enough dose. In small doses those same things may be harmless or even beneficial. Dosage is the key. Otherwise we'd have to ban everything that could ever be harmful to humans.

    40. Re:Nothing to see here.... by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      Fair enough, I qualify my statement thusly: Thiomersal in the quantities, concentrations, and delivery mechanisms used for vaccines is nontoxic. Is that better?

    41. Re:Nothing to see here.... by JBMcB · · Score: 3, Interesting

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy#Population_studies

      I didn't post a link because it's the second thing that shows up when you search for Thiomersal on Google.

      --
      My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    42. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Tr3vin · · Score: 1

      Yes, much better. I think we have to be careful when describing the toxicity of things. Simply stating that something is nontoxic is a good way to be easily brushed off by the antivaccine folks. I understood what you were saying. I'm just being pedantic and a bit of an ass.

    43. Re:Nothing to see here.... by sexconker · · Score: 1, Troll

      Dosage is absolutely not the key. Mercury accumulates. It doesn't go away.
      When you put it in a person in a "safe" form, you have to be sure it will stay in that form forever.

      Using mercury when alternatives are available is about as smart as using leaded paint and gasoline, or going for a romp in that fluffy, itchy stuff in the attic.

    44. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Pete+Venkman · · Score: 1

      "It's also been found that most people have more mercury in their blood than is normal". Normal? Do you mean average? If you do, I would say that it's a pretty safe bet that of a random group of people tested for mercury in their blood, about 50% would have above average levels and about 50% would have lower than average levels. Am I missing something here?

    45. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      You forgot the most important part, Playboy playmate talking about how sure she is that the two are linked while waving her boobs at the camera.

    46. Re:Nothing to see here.... by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      Elemental mercury accumulates, organomercury compounds do not. The compound in vaccines has a half life of 18 days and is removed from the body through fecal extraction.

    47. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Medievalist · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not nontoxic because you put it in a vaccines, it's nontoxic because it's part of the molecule C9H9HgNaO2S.

      C9H9HgNaO2S is toxic as hell. It's used in vaccines for the same reason we put highly toxic chlorine gas in our water supply; it is believed that humans can survive small doses much more readily than we can survive the bacteria these toxins kill.

      From wikipedia (where it is extensively documented):

      "Thiomersal [C9H9HgNaO2S] is very toxic by inhalation, ingestion, and in contact with skin (EC hazard symbol T+), with a danger of cumulative effects. It is also very toxic to aquatic organisms and may cause long-term adverse effects in aquatic environments (EC hazard symbol N). In the body, it is metabolized or degraded to ethylmercury (C2H5Hg+) and thiosalicylate.

      Few studies of the toxicity of thiomersal in humans have been performed. Cases have been reported of severe poisoning by accidental exposure or attempted suicide, with some fatalities. Animal experiments suggest that thiomersal rapidly dissociates to release ethylmercury after injection; that the disposition patterns of mercury are similar to those after exposure to equivalent doses of ethylmercury chloride; and that the central nervous system and the kidneys are targets, with lack of motor coordination being a common sign. Similar signs and symptoms have been observed in accidental human poisonings. The mechanisms of toxic action are unknown. Fecal excretion accounts for most of the elimination from the body. Ethylmercury clears from blood with a half-life of about 18 days in adults. Ethylmercury is eliminated from the brain in about 14 days in infant monkeys. Inorganic mercury metabolized from ethylmercury has a much longer half-life, at least 120 days; though it appears to be much less toxic than the inorganic mercury produced from mercury vapor, for reasons not yet understood."

      Really, the only reason to use mercury preservatives in vaccines is because retooling to use something else is expensive. There are far less controversial alternatives.

    48. Re:Nothing to see here.... by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      .A lot of autism cases have been traced to use of Mercury in vaccines during early childhood

      Um, no. There was concern that it did. So out of an abundance of caution, many vaccines were altered to remove it while more research was done. However, that was taken as an admission that mercury was a culprit. After extensive studies, there was no evidence found that supported the claim.

      In addition, multiple population studies have not found an association between thiomersal and autism, but have found that rates of autism have continued to increase despite removal of thiomersal from vaccines

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    49. Re:Nothing to see here.... by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      There should be an alternative to Vaccines. We are getting vaccines every year, and the numbers is steadily going up. I don't like injecting Mercury in my blood to avoid a flu once every few years.

      The only viable alternative to get immunity from a vaccine for a disease is to get the disease. The state of our biotechnology is not such that we can manufacture antibodies artificially.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    50. Re:Nothing to see here.... by DRMShill · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I've been seeing this trend more and more it seems on Slashdot. I almost think they might do better to be a bit more honest with their intentions and just write something on their front page along the lines of 'Hey everyone, let's talk about vaccination hysteria today'.

    51. Re:Nothing to see here.... by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      We're not talking about elemental mercury here. We're talking about thiomersal. Compounds and elements have different levels of toxicity. While thiomersal is toxic at high levels, it is easily handled by the body. It is broken into ethylmercury, which is excreted and does not bioaccumulate. source There is still some question as to how much of the compound degrades into inorganic mercury, but it's not nearly as much as you get from living within a few miles of a coal power plant.

    52. Re:Nothing to see here.... by NiteShaed · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Okay, so in the first half of your post, you've just effectively taken the position that nobody should ever ingest anything because it may not be perfectly safe 100% of the time, and that a lack of evidence that something is perfectly safe is really evidence that we just haven't found the vanishingly small minority of people in which an adverse reaction is possible. Oh, but you for some reason only want to apply this to Thimerosal for some reason. We know for a fact that diseases, which can be contained and in some cases eradicated through vaccination, kill and incapacitate people. There is no proof, or even strong evidence that Thimerosal at the levels it's found in some vaccines has adverse effects anywhere near as bad as the diseases that the vaccines protect against.

      As for anecdotal reports of "children changed pretty suddenly after getting mercury-containing vaccines, going from normal to autistic", well, I can find loads of anecdotal evidence for Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster and El Chupa Cabra. Doesn't mean they're real. If something is so widespread and easily identified as these stories suggest, there should be *some* scientific evidence for the phenomenon, but there's yet to be a single, credible study that shows a connection between vaccines and autism. Not one. Why is that? As for studying children, you don't need to "keep a million kids in sealed bubbles during their first 3 years to see if giving half of them mercury-containing vaccines causes a small handful of them to become autistic", you do long term studies following the health of a sampling of children and look for correlations. Been done, and guess what- found nothing.

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    53. Re:Nothing to see here.... by jittles · · Score: 1

      I've crawled in many an attic in my time, installing insulation and other fiberglass products. I've yet to encounter something up there that makes me itch, though I do not like to breath in fiberglass, so I wear a dust mask. It must suck to be you! Although I do find the warm stuffy air from dust masks to be quite uncomfortable.

    54. Re:Nothing to see here.... by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      Well I don't anyone should be legally compelled to have anything injected into them, well except perhaps after some criminal proceeded and due process. Should they be strongly advised that getting vaccinated is probably a good idea, yes, compelled? NEVER.

      Its a violation of your right to be secure in your own person. Frankly anyone who can't see that hates freedom.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    55. Re:Nothing to see here.... by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      Hey, hands off my MSG. It makes things taste great, and maintains that tastiness with less salt. That's an all around win in my book.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    56. Re:Nothing to see here.... by sqlrob · · Score: 1

      That view makes others insecure in their own person.

      Who wins, the one or the many?

    57. Re:Nothing to see here.... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Thimerosal has been marketed as an antimicrobial agent in a range of products, including topical antiseptic solutions and antiseptic ointments for treating cuts, nasal sprays, eye solutions, vaginal spermicides, diaper rash treatments, and perhaps most importantly as a preservative in vaccines and other injectable biological products, including Rho(D)-immune globulin preparations, despite evidence, dating to the early 1930s, indicating Thimerosal to be potentially hazardous to humans and ineffective as an antimicrobial agent.

      Anyone with access want to pull the paper and take a read? :)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    58. Re:Nothing to see here.... by mr1911 · · Score: 1

      You are wasting your time. The folks that get that spun up on topics have no interest in logic, reason, or facts.

      --
      This post comes with a double-your-money-back guarantee!
      Any offense taken to this post is at your sole discretion.
    59. Re:Nothing to see here.... by NiteShaed · · Score: 2

      Wrong. Things like wheat and peanuts are food items, so there's actually a reason to eat them, like any other food item. Same goes for milk: it's nutritious for part of the population, even though another part of the population can't handle it (those with lactose intolerance).

      And Thimerosal is used as a preservative for vaccines, so there's actually a reason to use it. It's not like they just spray it on people walking down the street or jab you with it for amusement purposes.

      Mercury isn't a food, it's a poison. Just like lead, there's no use for it in the body, unlike certain other trace elements like zinc. There's nothing good about mercury, from a biological point-of-view. The less of it in your body, the better. Injecting yourself with it is pure insanity, especially when alternatives exist.

      Everything is a poison if given in sufficient quantities. Doubt me? Name anything you like, I can figure out an amount that will kill you. But, you do have a point, there's no use for Thimerosal in the body. That's actually very convenient, because the bioavailability of the mercury in Thimerosal is zero. Within a few days, it's gone, flushed away with the rest of the poop. As for alternatives, sure, as better preservatives are developed, they're used, which is why Thimerosal is rarely used at this point in western countries, and as those alternatives become more widely available in poorer nations it'll be used less there as well.

      That's LA chupacabra, not El

      I'd call you a pedantic jackass, but you're even worse, you're a pedantic jackass who appears to be wrong The name in Spanish can be preceded by singular masculine article (el chupacabras), or the plural masculine article (los chupacabras).

      and I'm pretty sure it's already been found. Except it wasn't a big monster, it was some dog with mange or something like that.

      So in other words, they didn't find it, because it didn't exist.

      And there is indeed evidence for Nessie, and IIRC the people who made that photo admitted later that they fabricated it.

      Legends are not evidence, and telling me that some photo was faked does not support the assertion that there "is indeed evidence".

      Well of course you found nothing since your sample size was too small. If you only look at 100 kids, and the condition only occurs in 0.1% of the population, you're probably not going to see it. But 0.1% of the population is about 7 million people worldwide.

      Your numbers stink, but that's probably because you just hauled them out of your ass. Where do you get the idea that only 100 kids were studied? So far hundreds of thousands of children have been part of population studies, and stil not a single one of them has had reactions worse than the diseases being vaccinated against, and not a single one of them have had a reaction that suggests that a vaccine containing Thimerosal caused autism. The simple fact is that Thimerosal contains no mercury that is bio-available. It does not stay in the body, it does not interact with the body in the way that mercury alone or in other compounds would. Granted, this does not mean that it is 100% for everyone who has ever lived, but short of testing every single person on Earth before approving any new substance, how do you propose to gain the level of certainty that you seem to require? You can't possibly be suggesting that no substance that isn't a naturally obtained food product can ever be used, can you?

      Now, is there anything else you'd like to be wrong about, or are we done here?

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    60. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Grishnakh · · Score: 0

      Granted, this does not mean that it is 100% for everyone who has ever lived, but short of testing every single person on Earth before approving any new substance, how do you propose to gain the level of certainty that you seem to require?

      I'd say not basing injectable substances on known poisons would be a good start.

    61. Re:Nothing to see here.... by sexconker · · Score: 2

      Elemental mercury accumulates, organomercury compounds do not. The compound in vaccines has a half life of 18 days and is removed from the body through fecal extraction.

      How long was that shit sitting in the bottle?
      How long does it take for you to shit out what was injected to you?

      If the half life is 18 days (in the syringe? in the body?), that means a significant portion of it will break down while still in your body. Any guesses as to what it breaks down into?

    62. Re:Nothing to see here.... by sexconker · · Score: 2

      Mercury is bad for a long, long list of reasons and should be avoided whenever possible.
      Much of it still breaks down into elemental mercury.
      When there's a safer alternative that costs nearly the same, we should use it.

    63. Re:Nothing to see here.... by fferreres · · Score: 0

      Your super-source is not a good source...look at the Discussion page:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Thiomersal_controversy

      From the editor of the article...

      Second Opinion
      I would like a second opinion from another reviewer. I do not yet have a lot of experience as a reviewer, and this is my first review of a significant controversial article. On this subject, I am also personally biased against the claim of a link between vaccines containing Thiomersal and Autism, but I believe I am able to be objective.

      I wouldn't want my son to get Mercury in his blood purposely. If science is so great, find another way and stop the studies (or continue for hobby). Tobacco was "perfectly safe" not just years, but for a large numbers of decades, research after research. Why are you so confident? Your opinions are partly responsible for damages EVEN if the studies you have access to right now say there is no harm from feeding mercury to babies.

      --
      unfinished: (adj.)
    64. Re:Nothing to see here.... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      So far, no credible study has ever shown a link between the vaccinations and autism.

      I did read one interesting review that suggested that in a sub-population, consisting of infants with defective gut bacteria, and because of it intestinal distress, there may be some complicating factors from the ethylmercury. They suggested in a normal healthy baby, no problems would be found. Sometimes studies do find a false negative when they look at the wrong population.

      Clearly a careful study would need to be done before making changes, and the correction may very well be repair of the gut bacteria, not elimination of ethylmercury if it does prove to be true.

      We should always be open to new data while still proceeding according to the best available data.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    65. Re:Nothing to see here.... by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Well I don't anyone should be legally compelled to have anything injected into them, well except perhaps after some criminal proceeded and due process. Should they be strongly advised that getting vaccinated is probably a good idea, yes, compelled? NEVER.

      Then we should be able to legally ban you from getting tax-sponsored education (which is ironic, I admit), or take part in other reindeer games that could infect others.

      (Yes, I know about herd immunity.)

    66. Re:Nothing to see here.... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      And, just to persist and demonstrate that your ignorance on the subject really knows no bounds, you mistake mercury in a compound for elementary mercury. Nice work.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    67. Re:Nothing to see here.... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Its a violation of your right to be secure in your own person. Frankly anyone who can't see that hates freedom.

      That's absolutely true, and I support that 100%.

      I simultaneously hold that anybody who won't take the risk upon themselves or their children hates their community.

      The trouble is, in a general population something like 95% of vaccines are effective. The other 5% skates by on herd immunity. Reducing that fraction increases the chances of death or disability among the 5% to a degree greater than the risk to any one individual.

      I won't force you to get the vaccine but I'll do everything I can to convince you to do so and shun you for not doing so.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    68. Re:Nothing to see here.... by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Mercury isn't a food, it's a poison. Just like lead, there's no use for it in the body, unlike certain other trace elements like zinc. There's nothing good about mercury, from a biological point-of-view. The less of it in your body, the better. Injecting yourself with it is pure insanity, especially when alternatives exist.

      You still don't seem to understand the difference between elemental mercury, and mercury in a molecule of another substance.

      Chlorine is toxic by itself(*), but we NEED chlorine to survive, as a part of table.

      (*) OK, I admit I don't know if chlorine as a gas is already mixed with something else.

    69. Re:Nothing to see here.... by fferreres · · Score: 1

      I propose a different model. Measure mercury levels. Today, many many things contain mor mercury than before, like the tuna you advocate you pregnant woman. Maybe vaccines are not just a 1% of all the mercury being absorbed by kids through tuna and other foods. Would high doses of this mercury have adverse effects? Yes. So why add even more? Get rd of Tuna also, and buy fish that doesn't live several years. That more practical than pointing the vaccines with mercury have no correlation. They still many have, if the other kids are also absorbing mercury in some other ways. The claim isn't so much about vaccines, but about mercury (and vaccines is just one distribution channels).

      As I said, you may be right. I still don't like Mercury in my bloodstream, if it can be avoided. Call this an opinion and let it live as such. Tobbaco was super safe for years. I trust science in the long run (100 years), not 20 years timeframe when a lot of money is still in the table.

      --
      unfinished: (adj.)
    70. Re:Nothing to see here.... by NiteShaed · · Score: 1

      I'd say not basing injectable substances on known poisons would be a good start.

      Ah, then you've either just conceded that Thimerosal is fine since the mercury compound in it is not a "known poison" when used correctly, or you've just ruled out injecting saline solution because the chlorine in the compound sodium chloride is a "known poison" (and far deadlier than mercury). I look forward to your next rationalization.

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    71. Re:Nothing to see here.... by fferreres · · Score: 1

      Nobody wins. it's not about winning. It's about freedom. You can prevent me for going to a pub you own if I am not vaccinated. But you cannot forcibly vaccinate others. You are actually injecting something into their bodies. The best way is a healthy environment, and well nourished people with strong immune systems. People with AIDS are also a risk. You need to accept them. Same with anything you perceive a risk. Else, the country will seem more like a Communist/Authoritarian. Capitalism base is the belief that individuals, when free, will create a better world for others. We are going the opposite way.

      --
      unfinished: (adj.)
    72. Re:Nothing to see here.... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 5, Informative

      How's the New England Journal of Medicine for you? http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp078187

      Reference 4 is a review article that covers the (imaginary) link between autism and thiomersal.

      The thiomersol-autism thing was entirely manufactured by a (former) physician in the UK who it was found violated ethical guidelines, falsified his results and had a vested interest in the outcome (he was involved with a company offering a vaccine alternative). The scientific evidence is clear - if you don't get your kids vaccinated you are needlessly endangering them. Along with everyone else.

      As for your tobacco reference, scientific studies did NOT find that tobacco was safe. Tobacco companies insisted it was, for years, but they did not have scientific evidence backing them up. In fact, the reason they had to defend themselves was because scientific studies were showing that tobacco is in fact dangerous.

      But hey, if you want to protect your kids from toxic elements you'd better check into the chlorine thing. We're CONSTANTLY ingesting chlorine! (Note: if you cut chlorine out of your kids' diet they'll die. Fairly quickly)

    73. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Kreigaffe · · Score: 1

      Mercury and lead aren't nearly as dangerous as you have been led to believe.

      Especially lead.

      Don't go eating it, and it's not a bad idea to wash your hands after handling it, but there's no reason to wear a hazmat suit when handling it, and there's no reason to remove it from every possible thing you could ever touch or look at. If there's trace amounts of lead in artificial turf, or a lunch box, and the levels of lead detected are thousands or millions of times lower than what would be required to even raise concern if you somehow got EVERY LITTLE BIT of it into your blood.. calling it a problem and demanding its removal is probably an overreaction. While there's no "safe level" of lead, there's quite a threshold you have to cross before you reach "unsafe levels" of lead, and the crap is excreted from your body with time.

      Lead doesn't kill condors, either.

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    74. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      IIRC, chlorine gas is Cl(sub)2, diatomic like atmospheric oxygen.

      Mercury in combination with a methyl group makes methylmercury, which is recognized to be highly toxic and is linked to lowered IQs, heart attacks, and even homosexuality in birds. The mercury in thiomersal is ethyl mercury, which is a close relative, and while found not to bioaccumulate like its more poisonous cousin, according to Wikipedia "The toxicity of ethylmercury is not well studied". If it's not well studied, then what the heck are we doing injecting it into people?

      Unlike chlorine/chloride, we don't need mercury for anything in our bodies. It's useful in old-style thermometers and level switches, but biologically it's nothing but a poison.

    75. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Ah, then you've either just conceded that Thimerosal is fine since the mercury compound in it is not a "known poison" when used correctly,

      No, it's not known to not be a poison at all. From Wikipedia: "The toxicity of ethylmercury is not well studied".

    76. Re:Nothing to see here.... by JBMcB · · Score: 3, Insightful

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy#Scientific_consensus

      "Further evidence of the scientific consensus includes the rejection of a causal link between thiomersal and autism by multiple national and international scientific and medical bodies including the American Medical Association,[45] the American Academy of Pediatrics,[46] the American College of Medical Toxicology,[47] the Canadian Paediatric Society,[48] the U.S. National Academy of Sciences,[2] the Food and Drug Administration,[4] Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,[8] the World Health Organization,[7] the Public Health Agency of Canada,[49] and the European Medicines Agency.[50]"

      Referenced and everything. You skip over that and reference the editor of a Wikipedia page as a source proving your point?

      --
      My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
    77. Re:Nothing to see here.... by gujo-odori · · Score: 2

      Those children who were claimed to have gone from normal to autistic were all in the same faked up research that caused Wakefield to lose his license, and had not in fact made that change, were they not?

      And even if that were not the case, there's no evidence that it was the thiomersal and not something else.

      Moreover, even if that were true, that would mean that those vaccines exceed five nines of safety, whereas not getting vaccinated comes nowhere near five nines of safety against death or serious injury from illness.

      Two of my kids were born in one of the countries where thiomersal-containing vaccines are used and they received them. The large and proven risk of dangerous disease if vaccinations are not given greatly exceeds any tiny (and non-proven) risk from the vaccine.

    78. Re:Nothing to see here.... by NiteShaed · · Score: 1

      Okay, so first you say that you can't use it because "not basing injectable substances on known poisons would be a good start.", and now you're saying that you don't want to use it because it's not a known poison. You change positions so rapidly that it's actually dizzying. More study is fine, more study is great, but so far there's no proven reason not to use it. We do know that the diseases that spread when vaccines are unavailable are actually dangerous though, provably so, so it seems that until it's found to actually be dangerous it's better not to let people die of preventable illness.

      I look forward to your next sudden change in direction, reminds me of that old "shoot the bear" video game I so loved as a child.

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    79. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that's why it makes you fat. It's so darn tasty that you keep eating whatever they put it in.

    80. Re:Nothing to see here.... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      The toxicity of ethylmercury IS well studied. It's a preservative, it's highly toxic and kills shit. What's unclear is the toxicity of ethylmercury in the given concentration for the given period of persistence. You piss it out after 3 days, does it do damage within 3 days? Is it completely harmless in those low concentrations (expanding from 2mL to the 10,000mL in your blood is significant), or slightly harmful? I'm pretty sure you don't want a 2mL solution of saturated ethylmercury solution (is this stuff a liquid to begin with?) injected into you--it will do damage. This is obvious because it does damage to everything else. How much damage is the question.

    81. Re:Nothing to see here.... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      It's the diet sodas that cause autism and ADHD. Aspartame is toxic.

    82. Re:Nothing to see here.... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      That's not how immunity works. Your immune system genetically re-engineers itself to contain genes to produce chemicals that suppress and control certain pathogens based on their chemical activity, and that detect their activity. Antibodies and identifiers. You can't just dump antibodies in the body and expect that to work; that kind of serum is for suppressing an existing infection, not providing immunity.

    83. Re:Nothing to see here.... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      I like MSG, but in more artful application through certain forms of kelp and the like. Konbu is excellent for this; I recommended adding it to the rice while steaming/simmering when making sushi, and a coworker reported a 1000% increase in tastiness (because it provides a glutimate salt your brain specifically reacts to with a small orgasm).

    84. Re:Nothing to see here.... by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1
      To clarify, without a vaccine from a virus, the only way for the body to gain active immunity is to get the disease. Otherwise, passive immunity can be provided via anti-bodies:

      In medicine, protective passive immunity can also be transferred artificially from one individual to another via antibody-rich serum. . . Long-term active memory is acquired following infection by activation of B and T cells. Active immunity can also be generated artificially, through vaccination.

      I am not aware that such anti-bodies can be manufactured in biotech today.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    85. Re:Nothing to see here.... by makomk · · Score: 1

      Mercury's generally the other way around though - organomercury compounds are often actually a lot more poisonous than elemental mercury. We're not actually sure about the biological effects of thiomersal (the mercury preservative used in vaccines); it appears to be harmless at the levels used in vaccines but it also seems to be quite impressively toxic in humans in larger amounts.

    86. Re:Nothing to see here.... by makomk · · Score: 1

      At least according to the Wikipedia article on thiomersal, we know that thiomersal is toxic in humans and are reasonably sure it's the result of it breaking down to form ethylmercury. The open questions are exactly how toxic it is and to what extent it bioaccumulates.

    87. Re:Nothing to see here.... by makomk · · Score: 2

      The form of mercury in vaccines is actually known to be toxic in humans -fatally so in some cases - it's just not dangerous in the amounts contained in vaccines. Well, probably not anyway.

    88. Re:Nothing to see here.... by makomk · · Score: 1

      It's actually quite hard to accidentally ingest a lethal dose of salt because it induces vomiting. Thiomersal and ethyl mercury on the other hand...

    89. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here half life is the period of time it stays in the body before half of it is evacuated through natural means.

    90. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      it appears to be harmless at the levels used in vaccines but it also seems to be quite impressively toxic in humans in larger amounts.

      Lots of things are fine in small quantities but deadly at large quantities. The most obvious being either salt or water.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    91. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand HCN is perfectly safe. Just hydrogen carbon and nitrogen.

    92. Re:Nothing to see here.... by TxRv · · Score: 1

      Wrong. Since the removal of mercury, cases of Autism have continued to rise at a pretty steady rate.

      Today the only vaccines that still have it (in the form of Thimerosal) are a few Tetanus-Diphtheria vaccines, and some snake anti-venoms. All of those are rarely used on adults, and almost never used on children.

      Know what's going into your body before you complain about it.

    93. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the context it does not break down, it is excreted, half of it being got rid of every 18 days.

    94. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Kaenneth · · Score: 1

      "less controversial" does not mean safer.

    95. Re:Nothing to see here.... by russotto · · Score: 2

      The state of our biotechnology is not such that we can manufacture antibodies artificially.

      Actually we can, but it doesn't work as well as vaccines. The effect of antibody administration lasts for a very short time.

    96. Re:Nothing to see here.... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Latex, loosely, refers to water-based paints; it is contrasted to oil paints. It has absolutely nothing to do with lead content.

      In addition to being a pigment, lead in paint increases durability and has other good qualities for paint. There is NO replacement that is as good, but the toxicity of lead makes banning it a reasonable choice.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    97. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_controversy#Scientific_consensus

      "Further evidence of the scientific consensus includes the rejection of a causal link between thiomersal and autism by multiple national and international scientific and medical bodies including the American Medical Association,[45] the American Academy of Pediatrics,[46] the American College of Medical Toxicology,[47] the Canadian Paediatric Society,[48] the U.S. National Academy of Sciences,[2] the Food and Drug Administration,[4] Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,[8] the World Health Organization,[7] the Public Health Agency of Canada,[49] and the European Medicines Agency.[50]"

      Referenced and everything. You skip over that and reference the editor of a Wikipedia page as a source proving your point?

      Yes yes, all those journals are very nice, as are the opinions of all those scientists who are either paid off by the medical and chemical industries or have a stake in it, but if I know, you know, in my gut that mercury in vaccines cause autism, isn't that what really matters?

    98. Re:Nothing to see here.... by tbird81 · · Score: 1

      No. Two nerdy parents are more like to have a nerdy kid. Nowadays, rather than being picked on for being a nerd, the kid will be labelled with Aspergers.

    99. Re:Nothing to see here.... by tbird81 · · Score: 1

      So, pray tell, who is ingesting vast quantities of thiomersal?? What exactly is your point?

    100. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had all optimism for intelligent thought from politicians torn from my skull well before 2000, but when W was elected, whatever was left in my skull, evaporated.

    101. Re:Nothing to see here.... by makomk · · Score: 1

      We're probably not actually talking very large quantities here; some of the reported deaths were of people who'd accidentally eaten bread made from grain treated with it, for example. It's quite a bit harder to accidentally poison yourself with salt or water, especially salt. (Also, too little water or salt is just as fatal whereas there's no health benefits to consuming organomercury compounds that anyone knows of.)

    102. Re:Nothing to see here.... by fferreres · · Score: 1

      You science is wrong. First, you control the experiment, not the things around. Suppose there is a correlation, that after X dose you get a higher rate. Now suppose that it has been linked, but that people habits changed, an now they eat more tuna. Your study will mean that it is contributing, but that Tuna in both populations now players a mayor role, so both are unaffected. So you may end up assuming that it's perfectly fine, while it's largely toxic and dangerous. Yet, you make it appear innocent. Could this be the case? Pretty much yes, regardless how how many Phds you and your sources may have, they can be absolutely wrong and be contributing to many known and unknown conditions just because Mercury is easy for vaccines. Also, tests in animals have shown that it's very dangerous. We don't test that with humans, because they die.

      --
      unfinished: (adj.)
    103. Re:Nothing to see here.... by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Fact is mass vaccinations are like self inflicted pandemics (just hopefully beneficial ones ;) ).

      Unlike some other medical stuff you are applying it to those that are healthy. With the other stuff you can balance the side effects with the fact that the patient is sick and might actually get better as a result of the medical drug/treatment. So the safety testing and "passing" is a bit easier.

      Peanuts are regarded as safe, but you won't mass apply it to everyone who is healthy because there are a few who would die.

      So it might be that a very small percentage of the population are more sensitive to mercury for whatever reason. Note: not saying it is the cause of autism. Just that we shouldn't be surprised if there are problems.

      --
    104. Re:Nothing to see here.... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Peanuts are regarded as safe, but you won't mass apply it to everyone who is healthy because there are a few who would die.

      What's the net overall benefit of mass application of peanuts?

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    105. Re:Nothing to see here.... by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      Actually, Wakefield's "research" had nothing to do with mercury. He blamed autism on the MMR combination vaccine, which never had mercury in it to begin with. Of course, Wakefield's work was later shown to be fraudulent and was withdrawn, and subsequent studies showed that there was no such link.

    106. Re:Nothing to see here.... by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      I don't think that people should be required to have injections. But I also don't think that people who have not had their vaccinations should be allowed to put other people at risk by attending public schools, day care centers, etc.

    107. Re:Nothing to see here.... by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      It's the diet sodas that cause autism and ADHD. Aspartame is toxic.

      Not particularly. There is no evidence for toxicity at the doses used for sweetening, and it is merely a dipeptide of amino acids present naturally in foods (which it is rapidly broken down to), so it is highly implausible

    108. Re:Nothing to see here.... by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      Toxicity is only observed at doses massively greater than present in vaccines. Moreover, it is quite rapidly eliminated from the body. Symptoms of mercury poisoning are well known and readily identifiable and quite different from autism and also from the known rare adverse effects of vaccination. So even if it were not abundantly clear that removal of mercury from childhood vaccines has had zero impact on the incidence of autism, the mercury toxicity hypothesis of autism would be implausible.

    109. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It happens for lead and electronics even though most of the lead in solder is quite stable and not going anywhere. Exceptions were made and aircraft literally fell out of the sky due to "tin whiskers" that suddenly could form without the lead. And now they are rolling RoHS compliant medical equipment. We'll see how many people die from that. But at least there's no lead in those electronics. Ideology accomplished with only the requisite deaths of a minor and unimportant few.

    110. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Tacticus.v1 · · Score: 1

      That sounds a lot like wakefields bullshit study that was was retracted by the lancet and had his former co authors removing their names from their interpretation of it's results due to his deliberate fabircation of results and fraud

      Hell Wakefield lost his medical license for his malpractice in that "research" project

    111. Re:Nothing to see here.... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      That sounds a lot like wakefields bullshit study that was was retracted by the lancet and had his former co authors removing their names from their interpretation of it's results due to his deliberate fabircation of results and fraud

      It does seem similar. I hadn't read the retracted Wakefield study before, but I just looked at it now, and it's not talking about gut bacteria problems.

      It certainly could be nothing. It could be the large studies don't account for genetic or flora differences too (they usually prove a statistical lack of evidence, rather than zero cases of symptoms). $30 genome sequences and bioinformatics sure are going to help us with these big studies.

      I'm not sure I can find fault with scientists who want to rule it out, though.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    112. Re:Nothing to see here.... by fferreres · · Score: 1

      Feed your kids mercury or mercury compounds. I prefer not and do not like this preservative. I do not like boric acid or bromium as my or my kids beds flame retardant. I don't want it in my TV. I don't want added toxic fluoride in my tap water and I don't want systemic pesticides in my food. I choose with my wallet as much as I can. But sometimes I don't even have an option.

      --
      unfinished: (adj.)
    113. Re:Nothing to see here.... by fferreres · · Score: 1

      Ok, that is the consensus. Point taken. I believe otherwise. The earth was flat for 3 millenia or more. I believe this mercury preservative isn't safe.

      --
      unfinished: (adj.)
    114. Re:Nothing to see here.... by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Those who sell peanuts get richer?

      --
    115. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Medievalist · · Score: 1

      Toxicity is only observed at doses massively greater than present in vaccines.

      True. As I pointed out, lots of deadly poisons can be tolerated in extremely low doses. Strychnine and arsenic come to mind, for example, if you didn't like the more commonplace example of chlorinated water.

      Moreover, it is quite rapidly eliminated from the body.

      False. Read the research again. "Quite rapidly" is when you pee out asparagus stench an hour after eating some. 120 days is not even slightly "rapid".

      Symptoms of mercury poisoning are well known and readily identifiable and quite different from autism and also from the known rare adverse effects of vaccination. So even if it were not abundantly clear that removal of mercury from childhood vaccines has had zero impact on the incidence of autism, the mercury toxicity hypothesis of autism would be implausible.

      I think you are mistaking me for someone else. None of that has anything to do with what I posted.

      Vaccines are available that do not contain thiomersal. By choosing these vaccines one may have a small impact on the pollution and health issues associated with the extraction and use of mercury. I've never had any problem getting mercury-free vaccinations for my children, although they cost slightly more and have to be scheduled slightly further in advance.

      Still, if you like drinking small amounts of toxins, be my guest! It's extremely unlikely to do you any harm; people do it every day all over the world.

    116. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Medievalist · · Score: 1

      Dealing with controversies in a humane and functional matter is a rewarding activity. Safety, on the other claw, is highly over-rated these days, and unachievable anyway.

      There are several perfectly good reasons to restrict the use of mercury. For instance - did you know that US mercury reserves have been exhausted, and that the chinese cinnabar mines are an environmental and worker health nightmare?

      Personally, I don't feel any need to champion vaccine companies' desire to use old technology. They're just trying to squeeze an extra nickel of profit out of the 3rd world, where multi-use vaccines that do not require constant refrigeration are in demand. These companies are quite capable of converting over to modern mercury-free formulations, and their leadership will still all be multimillionaires afterward. Boo hoo, they might not be billionaires - so what? I'd be richer if I didn't pay my sewer bills and dumped my crap in somebody else's drinking water instead. Wealth is supposed to be a product of good business practices, not just a handout for drones who happen to have been born members of the boardroom social class.

      None of this has anything to do with unfounded fears of autism. Pretending mercury is only controversial because of the autism scare is very good corporate PR, but we private citizens shouldn't let ourselves be fooled.

    117. Re:Nothing to see here.... by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      True. As I pointed out, lots of deadly poisons can be tolerated in extremely low doses. Strychnine and arsenic come to mind, for example, if you didn't like the more commonplace example of chlorinated water.

      There are very few things that are not toxic at some dose.
      Even pure water is toxic at sufficiently high dose.

      False. Read the research again. "Quite rapidly" is when you pee out asparagus stench an hour after eating some. 120 days is not even slightly "rapid".

      I've read the research. Elimination half-life of ethyl mercury is under a week. It is quite clear that it is rapid enough that bioaccumulation of mercury in vaccines is not a concern (which is the only way the exceedingly tiny amounts present in vaccines could conceivably pose any risk)

      Still, if you like drinking small amounts of toxins, be my guest! It's extremely unlikely to do you any harm; people do it every day all over the world.

      It's pretty much impossible to avoid. As noted above, water itself is toxic at sufficiently high doses even when absolutely pure. And of course, alcohol and formaldehyde (components of fruit juice) are toxic at high doses. With the use of highly sensitive assays, pretty much every toxic compound known to man, including mercury, can be found in drinking water at some level.

    118. Re:Nothing to see here.... by Medievalist · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia cites Clarkson and Magos, "Critical Reviews in Toxology":

      Ethylmercury clears from blood with a half-life of about 18 days in adults. Ethylmercury is eliminated from the brain in about 14 days in infant monkeys. Inorganic mercury metabolized from ethylmercury has a much longer half-life, at least 120 days; though it appears to be much less toxic than the inorganic mercury produced from mercury vapor, for reasons not yet understood

      The study you cited (which was performed on a total of 21 subjects, so the authors do not regard it as conclusive) only deals with blood concentration of mercury. You can't kill human babies and assay their brain tissue for mercury content like the toxicologists do with their monkey babies. The second study also includes fecal sampling but I don't see anywhere that it compares the amount eliminated with the amount ingested, eh? So it still does not disprove what Wikipedia cites.

      Thus, it's currently believed that it takes 120 days for the mercury that comes out of the thiomersal due to normal metabolic activity to clear the system. It's 14 days for the thiomersol that does not break down. Therefore, mercury does not rapidly leave the system, it takes at least four months. This is not what people mean by "rapid".

      As a side note, "the dose makes the poison" is not a view I subscribe to, personally, although it's not inherently invalid. Meaning no offense to Paracelsus.

      And in any case, my major point has always been that we should minimize the use of mercury, and I don't think a lack of ill effects from thimerosal in vaccines means it's OK to roast cinnabar in China and 3rd world countries. If thiomersal left the body at the speed of light, it would still be a good idea to work towards elimination of mercury in vaccines.

    119. Re:Nothing to see here.... by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      The study you cited (which was performed on a total of 21 subjects, so the authors do not regard it as conclusive) only deals with blood concentration of mercury.

      You are grasping at straws. Read up a bit on pharmacokinetics. There is a huge body of evidence about the way substances distribute in the body. 21 subjects is actually quite a substantial number for a pharmacokinetic study, so the numbers should be reliable. Other tissues will be in equilibrium with blood, so blood levels can be reliably used to determine elimination half-life.

      Thus, it's currently believed that it takes 120 days for the mercury that comes out of the thiomersal due to normal metabolic activity to clear the system.

      People believe all kinds of crazy things. Show me data to support your claim.

      As a side note, "the dose makes the poison" is not a view I subscribe to, personally

      You may choose not to subscribe to belief in gravity, but that does not make it any less real. Parcelsus had an early, and quite brilliant, insight, but science has advanced considerably since the Renaissance. Dose-effect relationships are one of the most fundamental and most thoroughly established principles of pharmacology and toxicology and arise out of the fundamental physiology and physics of chemical interaction.

      If thiomersal left the body at the speed of light, it would still be a good idea to work towards elimination of mercury in vaccines.

      I would say rather that we should make decisions taking into account all costs and benefits rather than obsessing about a single component based upon pre-scientific notions of what a "toxin" is. Thimerosal at the levels used in vaccines has negligible, probably zero risk. There are real risks associated with contamination, and there are also risks (fewer people vaccinated, reduced herd immunity) associated with higher costs of vaccination.

    120. Re:Nothing to see here.... by fferreres · · Score: 1

      Look for the author of the report. He wrote a book. I haven't found any huge missdoing in his report, and all the claims against, to me, seem fabricated. Now, the reality is that today, in the USA, 1 out of 96 child have Autism (or 110 if you ask CDC). This is a huge number. It's 1% of all children born. The author claimed that all the chemicals, including vaccines, that we take for harmless, add up, and that brings all kind of problems, one of which is finding ourselves with 1% of all children in the country, with Autism. I made my comment more casually, and wanted it to be broader: we don't know what is causing so much allergies, cancer, autism and all the other illnesses. But certainly, injecting Mercury compounds when alternatives are available, isn't our best choice.

      The problem today is that we want to detect the individual contribution of each thing to something very narrow. And we find everything is safe. And then, well, something is wrong and nobody knows what causes it. Yet, 1 out of every 96 of all Children have to fight really hard to live a normal life, and most fail (Autism).

      There are other studies that show in animals that this Mercury compound seriously affects the brain. There are studies that state that while the half life may be relatively short, the compound isn't 100% stable and tends to change to not so safe forms. There are more things we don't know, than the things we know. Also, people point out that fish has more mercury. This makes the case stronger: if there are more ways to get it, then reduce the number of sources to a minimum. That argument, to me, is like saying that it's ok for interior lamps to have a lot of UV...the sun is already producing vasts amounts. No, that's not a good reason. Protect while in the sun, and don't make it even worst by creating artificial sources for trouble. Especially in vaccines.

      But anyway....I should have made my comment more general. Mercury compounds aren't needed, and I personally would avoid it if I have kids. I don't see a reason not to use the other preservatives - in my case.

      --
      unfinished: (adj.)
    121. Re:Nothing to see here.... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Actually, career biochemists tell me the dipeptide is particularly neurotoxic if not ingested as part of a more complete amino acid chain. Consider this much in the same conceptual model where sodium chloride is essential, but sodium and chlorine are highly toxic.

      More to the point, while I dislike aspartame for scientific and rational reasons, and I dislike injecting mercury into my blood for scientific and rational reasons, to claim any of these causes some specific effect requires some epic level wizardry. Studying a population is hard. Studying a population for a neurological disease trigger is even harder when you know 47 things we consume in significant quantity are potentially neurotoxic. That something is a poison regularly present in the body doesn't automatically create a link between its effects and a population's condition.

    122. Re:Nothing to see here.... by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      Actually, career biochemists tell me the dipeptide is particularly neurotoxic if not ingested as part of a more complete amino acid chain.

      That makes little sense. Your body is very good at hydrolyzing peptide bonds, so it should be broken down rapidly into individual amino acids, the same as if it is present in a longer polypeptide chain. Research supports this rational expectation. Being a career neuroscientist, myself, most of the people I talk to every day are career biochemists or other types of bioscientists, so "some scientist told me" carries about as much weight with me as "I heard it from some guy in a bar." Can these unnamed "scientists" cite peer-reviewed research to support their assertion?

      More to the point, while I dislike aspartame for scientific and rational reasons, and I dislike injecting mercury into my blood for scientific and rational reasons, to claim any of these causes some specific effect requires some epic level wizardry.

      It would certainly require very high-quality research to support a claim that sounds so obviously ridiculous on its face, and that is not consistent with a large body of research and biological knowledge. But a lot of it would not be technically difficult. What is the evidence that the dipeptide is not broken down rapidly after oral administration? What specific biological targets does it bind to at concentrations comparable to those present in the body after it is administered orally? How, specifically, does it act on that target to produce neurotoxicity?

    123. Re:Nothing to see here.... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      It would certainly require very high-quality research to support a claim that sounds so obviously ridiculous on its face, and that is not consistent with a large body of research and biological knowledge. But a lot of it would not be technically difficult. What is the evidence that the dipeptide is not broken down rapidly after oral administration? What specific biological targets does it bind to at concentrations comparable to those present in the body after it is administered orally? How, specifically, does it act on that target to produce neurotoxicity?

      You are obviously not a statistician.

    124. Re:Nothing to see here.... by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      Like virtually all biomedical scientists, I use statistics routinely extensively in my work and have studied statistics throughout my professional career. I participate in teaching statistics to graduate students, and I am extensively familiar with the use of statistics to evaluate such things as blood levels of drugs and toxins, ligand interactions with biological molecules, changes in physiological function, epidemiological evidence for drug efficacy and toxicity, etc., etc. So waving your hands about while seriously intoning "statistics" does not impress me.

    125. Re:Nothing to see here.... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      My point was that if you want to discuss the impacts of a certain substance present in a population by examining the population, there will be a lot of confounding. Aspartame? Mercury? Fluoridated water? You're testing the population to decide if these things have an impact. These people with high level intake ... those people with high level intake.. versus this population ... but, they all have high levels of intake of this stuff, and that stuff. The subset of populations that provide a high level of X but a low level of Y for comparison are statistically small, and don't give much if any confidence.

      Good luck with that.

    126. Re:Nothing to see here.... by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      Certainly, if your only tool to evaluate toxicity is retrospective epidemiology, you are poorly equipped. But toxicity is not magical. For a substance to be neurotoxic, it needs to do something harmful to neurons, and it has to do it at concentrations that are biologically realistic. These are fundamental requirements of biological plausibility that are readily testable in the laboratory before you consider embarking upon an expensively massive epidemiological study

  2. I think you mean Thiomersal by Microlith · · Score: 1, Informative

    Last I read it was being phased out in favor of other preservatives that lacked mercury.

    1. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by mark_reh · · Score: 2

      I think you mean Thiomersal...

    2. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by ElmoGonzo · · Score: 2

      T-H-I-M-E-R-O-S-A-L is the way it is spelled on the vaccination form where it asks "Are you allergic to Thimerosal (used as a preservative in vaccines)?"

    3. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by fruitbane · · Score: 1

      Is it commonly called thimerosal in the US, FYI. I think in many cases it is being phased out (though not because there is any scientific evidence that it is harmful), but there are some vaccines for which thimerosal is simply better suited. A blanket ban which prohibits use of thimerosal could slow or halt production of some vaccines until an alternative is found, and the alternative may be less efficacious or less safe, and if it raises the costs in the process it could slow critical vaccinations, especially in developing nations where young populations are most sensitive and access is already tenuous.

    4. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      In the U.S., among common vaccines, it's only present in one of the forms of flu vaccine.

    5. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by bkaul01 · · Score: 1

      That's true of vaccines intended for children under the age of 6. It is still used in a variety of other vaccines that aren't part of the routine childhood vaccination schedule, though.

    6. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... (though not because there is any scientific evidence that it is harmful)....

      I have to call you on that. There is a lot of data on thimerosal toxicity and most of it is summarized in the MSDS data sheet (PDF). Pay particular attention to chronic exposure like the one you get every year from your flu shot. Kidney, liver and CNS damage don't strike me as particularly harmless.

      Besides there is no excuse why it is still in use as vaccine preservative. There are alternative preservatives, and in many cases preservative use is not even needed. Producing the vaccine in a clean facility and/or sterilizing it by filtration or gamma-irradiation (where appropriate) should do the job quite nicely.

    7. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by bbartlog · · Score: 0

      'No scientific evidence that it's harmful' is overbroad. In the tiny amounts present in vaccines, it may be OK. The MSDS is still pretty scary, though! See: http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925236 . Mutagenic, repeated exposure may cause organ damage, etc. Organomercury compounds are no fun, really.

    8. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      Preservatives are necessary for multi-dose vaccine delivery. There's always some contamination when you break the seal.

      If you only use one dose bottles, then yes, just sterilize it and you don't need a preservative.

      Too much gamma radiation causes organics to break down, the trick is killing all the microbes, without destroying the proteins that are important for the vaccine to work.

      The problem with toxicity studies, is that they would exclude people who are already on the edge of mercury poisoning. Plus, many poisons work together to multiply their effect.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    9. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by bobcat7677 · · Score: 1

      Thimerosal has already been phased out or banned outright in most of the world. In Russia, they found direct links to increased rates of serious mental health issues and instituted a strict ban on the stuff. The only people that really want to keep using the stuff is the vaccine companies because it's cheap and they make more money using it. And since the same guys who run those companies also sit on the board of the CDC, you can imagine why the CDC finds no issue with it.

    10. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Thimerosal has already been phased out or banned outright in most of the world. In Russia, they found direct links to increased rates of serious mental health issues and instituted a strict ban on the stuff.

      If that were true, one would suspect that we would see a similar problem in the US since Thiomersal has been used for decades. We should see increasing amounts of mental illness, stupidity and general batshit craziness.

      Oh, wait ....

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    11. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by fruitbane · · Score: 1

      You are correct. I was not specific enough. Since the context was vaccines I was assuming that context on my statement. Scientific evidence thus far indicates the amounts common to vaccines are no threat to human health or development.

    12. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by fruitbane · · Score: 1

      That seems like an isolated result. Other studies have not found the same effect, to my knowledge.

    13. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by fruitbane · · Score: 1

      How do you conclude that their definition of chronic exposure is comparable to a yearly flu shot? Hey, too much oxygen or water is poisonous, even deadly. It's all about amounts. I have seen no credible research that suggests the amount of thimerosal in vaccines is sufficient to be of any risk to human health or development.

      Further, while there may not be much cause to continue to use it in the US, low cost and ease of manufacture and distribution can be critical in poor nations which may already be struggling with preventable disease. In those nations the cheapest, quickest, easiest option which is "good enough" is often preferable, because otherwise they must simply do without.

    14. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's Thimerosal or Thiomersal ("Thio" as in "thionation" meaning a Sulfur atom takes the place of an Oxygen atom in the compound) now depending on where you are, but I've seen it called Thermisol before. It's probably one of those brand name things where something like cephalexin gets turned into Keflex.

      So, er, nice try at being pedantic, but you lose points for not actually knowing what you're talking about.

    15. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by RMingin · · Score: 1

      Both are correct.

      TFS is, of course, wrong, as usual.

      --
      The preceding comment is my own, and in no way construes an opinon of the Emperor of Mankind.
    16. Re:I think you mean Thiomersal by TemperedAlchemist · · Score: 1

      I'd love to see these links.

      Thiomersal is only present in minuscule quantities, and yes, it is toxic. But it's effective, cheap, and safe in vaccines.

      ---

      I find it curious how you think vaccines make any sort of money. Maybe a few cents per vaccine, at the most. Vaccines do cost money to develop and make, and it's pretty much at cost for a $25 flu vaccine. The goal of vaccines isn't to make money, it is to immunize as many people as possible. Cheaper is better, in that regard. A cheaper vaccine means that more people can afford it (and health insurance companies aren't afraid to soak up the cost, especially since they end up netting them savings).

      I find it even more curious how you claim how people on the board of the CDC have ulterior motives. I haven't seen anything that suggests they do. And I would like to see evidence to prove the statement.

      Or are you not really educated on the topic, but rather suffering from the dunning-kruger effect? Perhaps you should do more research before making such bold claims.

  3. There is a bright side by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Once this ban passes, then all new diagnoses of autism should stop, right?

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    1. Re:There is a bright side by j-turkey · · Score: 1

      Yes, because this ban will conclusively prove that correlation equals causation. :)

      --

      -Turkey

    2. Re:There is a bright side by fruitbane · · Score: 2

      Thimerosal use in vaccines is already down quite a bit and yet autism cases have not dropped correspondingly. Autism diagnoses continue to increase, even as we use less mercury and fewer heavy metals in products aimed at sensitive populations (at least here in the US and other developed nations).

    3. Re:There is a bright side by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      You do know my post was made sarcastically, right?

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    4. Re:There is a bright side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They should have stopped years ago when the US manufacturers stopped putting thimerosal in childhood vaccines (the flu vaccine is the only one remaining, and it has a preservative-free version for kids. Adult tetanus shots still have it as well).

    5. Re:There is a bright side by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      However as the autism rate drops by a fraction of a percent. There seems to be a 20% increase in deaths due to children dying of viruses.
      The greater good be damn! I don't care how many kids die from preventable virus I don't want the shame of my child being autistic.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:There is a bright side by fruitbane · · Score: 1

      I do, but I wanted to qualify your comment with a little detail on the off chance someone else doesn't. Didn't mean to offend, sir.

    7. Re:There is a bright side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once this ban passes, then all new diagnoses of autism should stop, right?

      I really like when people proves ignorance reigns the world. I like in Almadén, a village which has been producing 3/4 of global mercury in last 2 millenia.

      Well, do you know how many causes of autism we have? Only 2 in the last 10 years. In total, 2 persons in this village have autism. Btw, you can find mercury if you kick a rock, it's everywhere!

      But I guess you were living happy drinking from a plumb of "plumb" which is toxic and is PROVED to kill...

      Ignorance to the power!!!

    8. Re:There is a bright side by Nidi62 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I like in Almadén, a village which has been producing 3/4 of global mercury in last 2 millenia.

      Well, do you know how many causes of autism we have? Only 2 in the last 10 years. In total, 2 persons in this village have autism.

      But it does appear that all of that mercury has caused the population of Almaden to be unable to detect sarcasm.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    9. Re:There is a bright side by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      None taken

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    10. Re:There is a bright side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the shame of my child being autistic.

      Spoken like someone without an autistic child, I assure you shame has nothing to do with it. It's heartbreaking, stressful, and hideously expensive. You can't even rely on some family and friends to help out because they go bonkers trying to deal with the OCDs and other issues.

      I'm not weighing in on the vaccination argument as both sides are pretty much equally moronic.

    11. Re:There is a bright side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't make our plumbing and dishes out of lead in the US.

    12. Re:There is a bright side by firex726 · · Score: 1

      Hasn't the CDC declared an epidemic of whopping cough in southern California?

    13. Re:There is a bright side by necro81 · · Score: 1

      The (erroneous, and much disproved) argument made by the anti-vaccine crowd is, explicitly, that the thimerosal causes autism. Theirs is a causal hypothesis. Eliminating the cause and getting the negative result would disprove the hypothesis.

    14. Re:There is a bright side by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes, in older kids. The pertussis (whooping cough) component of childhood vaccines wears off after a while (and was never 100% to begin with). This, combined with increasing numbers of non immunized children and the fact that the CDC gets wound up about pertussis* makes outbreaks fairly common.

      Fun fact: the newer tetanus vaccines have pertussis vaccine in them so adults might quit being the reservoir of the disease. It tends to cause a much milder illness in adults so they don't get treated and it can be contagious for weeks.

      *Because it's treatable and highly contagious and fairly dangerous to infants.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    15. Re:There is a bright side by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      Could you please explain this - slowly and thoroughly - to Jenny McCarthy?

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    16. Re:There is a bright side by sjames · · Score: 1

      I was concerned about mercury's role in autism and other problems at one time, but given the way nothing changed after mercury was cut way back, I think it's quite thoroughly dis-proven now.

      At this point, we don't need a total ban, just a caution. We shouldn't emit it in exhaust. We should replace it where other things will work just as well (unless the other thing is more toxic than mercury).

      For example, it would be kinda silly to make everyone read by candle light because we banned light emitting heat globes and we can't produce CFL anymore due to the ban on mercury.

    17. Re:There is a bright side by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      My point wasn't that autism is easy. I have dealt with autistic people in the past and they take a lot of work. But more to the point that autism 1 comes in many degrees from mild (functional) to extreme ("heartbreaking, stressful, and hideously expensive") for the most part it is still better then the grief of their child dying. If you are someone with a family with an autistic child, would you prefer if they were dead?

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    18. Re:There is a bright side by SETIGuy · · Score: 2

      They've got a mumps epidemic in northern California, too.

    19. Re:There is a bright side by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

      The (erroneous, and much disproved) argument made by the anti-vaccine crowd is, explicitly, that the thimerosal causes autism.

      No, that's some anti-vaccine people saying that. The actual hypothesis that was proposed was that the combination vaccine for MMR somehow allowed one component to lodge in the gut, or get through to the brain - I don't recall the story, but it was MMR not Mercury. The obvious solution was to test by giving the vaccines separately. I don't know how that ever turned out.

      Anyway, many in the anti-vaccination crowd conflate all the supposedly bad things associated with them, leading some to think mercury causes autism.

    20. Re:There is a bright side by j-turkey · · Score: 1

      The (erroneous, and much disproved) argument made by the anti-vaccine crowd is, explicitly, that the thimerosal causes autism.

      No, that's some anti-vaccine people saying that. The actual hypothesis that was proposed was that the combination vaccine for MMR somehow allowed one component to lodge in the gut, or get through to the brain - I don't recall the story, but it was MMR not Mercury. The obvious solution was to test by giving the vaccines separately. I don't know how that ever turned out. Anyway, many in the anti-vaccination crowd conflate all the supposedly bad things associated with them, leading some to think mercury causes autism.

      My understanding was that the individual MMR vaccination components were given separately in Japan, and no causal conclusions were drawn. (Sorry, no source)

      --

      -Turkey

    21. Re:There is a bright side by fnj · · Score: 1

      How the hell would we know that? We can't see your face, you know.

    22. Re:There is a bright side by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      I'm just glad we haven't increased our usage of mercury in every day products that are likely to just get thrown in the trash, like CFLs. Oh wait...

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    23. Re:There is a bright side by fruitbane · · Score: 1

      Actually, I believe the reduced energy consumption of CFLs offsets the mercury contained in them. You see, coal contains mercury, and that mercury enters the environment as coal ash in the air and in material waste when the coal is burned for electricity. Did you know coal ash contains radioactive elements as well? Anyway, the CFLs reduce electricity consumption enough that the mercury prevented from entering the environment more than offsets the mercury in the bulb over the course of its life (this does not apply if you like to throw away perfectly good bulbs or smash them for no reason, however.)

    24. Re:There is a bright side by DrStoooopid · · Score: 1

      She's just pissed off that even though her genetic material combined in such a way as to make her drop dead gorgeous, she's still enough of a genetic defective as to produce flawed offspring. She's got to blame someone other than her own f*cked up genome.

      --
      There are 2 groups of people you can make fun of on the Internet without fear of attack. The illiterate, and the Amish.
    25. Re:There is a bright side by DrStoooopid · · Score: 1

      This can be partially blamed on under-immunized illegal aliens as well. Pour the 3rd world into a 1st world country and you're going to have outbreaks of disease. (Not being racist, just stating a fact)

      --
      There are 2 groups of people you can make fun of on the Internet without fear of attack. The illiterate, and the Amish.
    26. Re:There is a bright side by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      However as the autism rate drops by a fraction of a percent. There seems to be a 20% increase in deaths due to children dying of viruses.
      The greater good be damn! I don't care how many kids die from preventable virus I don't want the shame of my child being autistic.

      Hey, a lot of these diseases we vaccinate against also gave kids life-long crippling injuries instead of killing them outright.

      I'll take the vaccination with the dubious and totally unproven claim of autism over the very real danger of infection.

    27. Re:There is a bright side by fferreres · · Score: 1

      The alternative are vaccines than use other preservatives. Re-read the hole thread. Also, the flu doesn't kill 2%.

      --
      unfinished: (adj.)
    28. Re:There is a bright side by firex726 · · Score: 1

      Yea, at the time everyone was trying to blame the Anti-Vaxers but Immigrants will likely play a part in it. I Would interested in seeing the local populations of the infected areas.

    29. Re:There is a bright side by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1
      I got pertussis at 50 , and can assure you that it is nasty, nasty, nasty, for adults too, while we may not die from it, I just about blacked out on several occasions. The spasms start at the bottom of an exhale, so you don't have a reservoir to work with. And not much you can do about it either. The cold part goes away pretty quickly, but the cough/spasm fits can be weeks. Not much fun to do a grayout.

      That being said, I'm happy that they are putting Pertussis vaccine in the tetanus shots. Do not want that ever again, and if it protects infants, I'm all for it.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  4. Feelings vs Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And this is what happens when actions are taken using feelings and opinions vs science and facts...

  5. The actual concerns by JoshuaZ · · Score: 5, Informative

    Mercury has been phased out of most vaccines. This was done in the late 1990s in response to concerns that the mercury was somehow causing autism in children. Note that this had no impact on autism rates so the anti-vaxxers then switched to talking about ambiguous toxins. Thiomersol is still used in some vaccines but it is only a small fraction of vaccines, such as some versions of the flu vaccine. If necessary that can be easily replaced. It would be stupid because the mercury levels are tiny but it wouldn't have much of an impact. I'm more concerned that this sort of blanket ban would inadvertently impact smaller uses where mercury is really necessary for specialized uses in other areas. The ban also doesn't seem to address the differences between organic and inorganic mercury which have wildly different chemical properties in practice.

    1. Re:The actual concerns by hawguy · · Score: 1

      I think it's only being phased out in wealthy, first-world countries that can deal with the reduced shelf-life of non Thiomersol preserved vaccines.

    2. Re:The actual concerns by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      Wildly different biological properties as well (although that's arguably redundant). The mercury in vaccines isn't bioavailable in any significant way so the body doesn't absorb it like it does atomic mercury. Even more importantly, it doesn't accumulate in the body the way atomic mercury does, any damage the tiny amount of mercury would do is limited to the one or two days it's in your system before it is passed out. Compared to atomic mercury which accumulates so much so that it will literally turn your hair red with continuous exposure.

    3. Re:The actual concerns by Rakishi · · Score: 1

      Mercury is a neurotoxin that accumulates in the body.

      Not all forms of mercury are identical, the half life for ethylmercury is something like a week. Of course, people like you thrive in ignorance so I doubt you ever bothered to look into any of this.

    4. Re:The actual concerns by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Mercury is a neurotoxin that accumulates in the body.

      In order to maintain this level of vigilance, you'll probably never be able to use an insect repellant around your child, or ever let them visit a farm, or a country where leaded gasoline is permitted. Such as Mexico.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    5. Re:The actual concerns by compro01 · · Score: 1

      Mercury is a neurotoxin that accumulates in the body.

      Elemental mercury, yes, thimerosal, no.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    6. Re:The actual concerns by sjames · · Score: 1

      Actually, thimerosal does not accumulate. It has a biological half-life of 7-10 days. Compare to the risks of a vaccine having a live virus/bacterium in it!

    7. Re:The actual concerns by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

      Not all forms of mercury are identical, the half life for ethylmercury is something like a week. Of course, people like you thrive in ignorance so I doubt you ever bothered to look into any of this.

      So you know every path that ethylmercury takes once inside the body? I don't doubt that some gets out. What I do doubt is that anyone knows what percent gets out and can guarantee that none of it accumulates somewhere (which would be bad). The GP question is entirely valid, why put it in when we know it will be bad IF any of it is absorbed? The answer may be that the alternatives have issues too, but when you have the option to completely avoid a hazard you should take that option unless the alternatives are worse.

    8. Re:The actual concerns by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Chlorine is an element. You do not want pure Chlorine in you, as it is very bad for you.
      Salt is a compound made up of Sodium and Chlorine. In normal amounts, salt is perfectly harmless, even necessary.

      Mercury is an element. You do not want pure Mercury in you, as it is very bad for you.
      Thimerosal is a compound made up of Carbon, Hydrogen, Sodium, Oxygen, Sulfur, and of course Mercury. In normal amounts, thimerosal is perfectly harmless.

      When you combine elements into compounds, they take on different characteristics than the components. Hydrogen and Oxygen are gaseous at 1 atmosphere of pressure and at room temperature. Water is liquid in the same environment and also had solvent properties that the free elemental gases do not.

      This is what we call Chemistry.

    9. Re:The actual concerns by treeves · · Score: 1

      You'd better never eat any ocean fish then. It's got methylmercury in it, to varying degrees. This will tell you how much.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    10. Re:The actual concerns by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You can use insect repellants that aren't stupid and toxic. DEET doesn't keep mosquitoes from biting you, only less of them will, and the same is true of the natural stuff. Meanwhile, mint oil is a neurotoxin to yellowjackets, so if you're too wimpy to just spray their nests off the walls with a good hoze nozzle (or my favorite, the pressure washer) then you can use that, if you can find it. They don't seem to carry it at my local hardware store, and even Friedman's which used to carry it appears to no longer stock it.

      Don't visit any farms that aren't organic.

      Mexico is dirty :p Though I am planning to go there for dental care, because it's a fifth as expensive as what I can get it for here, or half as expensive as when I had dental insurance.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    11. Re:The actual concerns by pz · · Score: 1

      I dispute your implicit premise that either there is thimerosal in a vaccine vial or there is a risk of contamination: if that were the case, then every vial would have thimerosal, and yet, single-use vials do not.

      --

      Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
    12. Re:The actual concerns by Rakishi · · Score: 1

      So how can you know that the alternative preservative won't cause health problems? How can you know every single path that the chemicals take inside the body?

    13. Re:The actual concerns by sjames · · Score: 1

      Not all risks are 100% are they?

      By your reasoning, either someone in the back seat can cause an instant and fatal car crash simply by unbuckling his seatbelt or seatbelts contribute nothing to safety.

      My explicit premise is that the risk of adding thimerosal may be outweighed by the risks it eliminates.

    14. Re:The actual concerns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read birds in the 1950'60's, dang I don't remember the author, but she did a study then. Next google, egg shell and mercury.
      Scientific studies show, mercury from smokestacks, thou miniscule, the billionth of a gram, still affects/effects the reproduction tracts, not the mental but the physical portions of repuduction, such as egg cases, shells, membrane coatings of the sperm, and nervous tissue of the matng groups studied. Cross relate your search with human reproduction, and of the 70' and 80's which has been repriclated in the 90's and, cross relate the studies of the germans in the 40's and you can show thermisol is a mercury compound that has all the effect of the predissor compound with a buffer. Somewhere in the 00/10's mercury became ok. My question is why?

    15. Re:The actual concerns by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      I jus read that there is a correlation between autism and low birth rate, something like over double the likelyhood. Given the progress that has been made in saving preemies, that may have someyhing to do with the "autism epidemic".

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  6. wrong name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not Thermisol, that's a brand of isolation products. It's called Thiomersal or Thimerosal.

  7. Summmary by hawguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To summarize: A draft treaty (with only 2 of 5 planned meetings to draft the treaty having been completed) and not expected to become final for 2 years, is not complete. Is there any reason to believe that the exception for vaccine preservatives won't be present in the final treaty?

    1. Re:Summmary by sjames · · Score: 1

      The problem is that they have started from an un-workable position and want to work back from cuckoo-land. They would be better off starting with no use of mercury where a viable substitute exists and then add specifics. They will never be able to capture all reasonable exceptions to a blanket ban short of making it just a suggestion.

    2. Re:Summmary by amorsen · · Score: 1

      But there are plenty of viable substitutes. Even the flu vaccine is mercury free around here.

      And everyone here talks about whether it's dangerous to the person ingesting it. If there was a risk, it would have been banned for ages, it has been studied for ages. It is not the problematic part.

      Production of thiomersal involves the production of mercury (obviously), which in itself is a problem for the environment. When the thiomersal leaves the body, it doesn't magically go away, it goes into the environment.

      I really don't see why there should be an exception for vaccines.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    3. Re:Summmary by sjames · · Score: 1

      But there are plenty of viable substitutes. Even the flu vaccine is mercury free around here.

      Then a requirement to use viable substitutes wherever they exist will work just fine, yes?

      There is a viable substitute for THAT PARTICULAR use of mercury in the vaccines you have looked at. There are nearly uncountable industrial and medical uses of mercury today and no way to know what might come about tomorrow (unless the ban is absolute with called out exceptions).

      It would be a shame (exaggeration coming) if there was a new device a year after the ban that could convert nuclear waste into safe and tasty icecream for third world children for $0.001/ton but because it requires 2 nanograms of mercury it goes on the scrap heap.

      That is, The exception should be built in structurally for any case where no viable substitute exists (and somewhere in the billion following pages crap like this tends to have they can define viable). Otherwise, you'll have corporations saving a nickle a year using their exception even though a viable substitute was subsequently developed and others will simply cease to produce useful (or even essential goods) because no viable substitute exists but there is no written exception and the U.N. bureaucracy can't be effectively educated because it's a technical rather than a political matter. There might even be cases where far more toxic materials are used rather than mercury.

    4. Re:Summmary by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      And even if there no exemption what is the punishment for breaking the ban? A strongly worded letter urging the country to stop using mercury.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    5. Re:Summmary by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      That's generally how politics and negotiations work.

      If, say, a union wants $100/year more for all of its employees, it asks for $1,000 and then negotiates down to the real amount. You have to start retarded and then work your way down to reasonable.

    6. Re:Summmary by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's great for negotiation, but only if it doesn't result in a complete failure later (as this sort of ban would do). They will never be able to add enough exceptions and counter exceptions and so even if they win, they lose. When negotiating, you must make absolutely sure that there exists a logical path from your initial position to a reasonable position that doesn't humiliate anyone.

  8. thimerosol-free flu shot by oh-dark-thirty · · Score: 1

    Just got my flu shot yesterday, and this year they were using thimerosol-free shots exclusively, whereas in past years I had to specifically ask for one. I'm sure there would be other vax that need it, but reducing it's use whenever possible is a step in the right direction.

    1. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by fruitbane · · Score: 1

      Thimerosal is used in such low doses that it won't make any difference, really. That and thimerosal is a pretty safe form of mercury, as far as the human body is concerned. As long as there are safe and effective alternatives I support, generally speaking, reductions in use of thimerosal, but if the replacements are less effective and harm the efficacy and affordability of vaccines I say don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

    2. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      Not really. A flu shot with Thimerosal is worth something like a few meals' worth of tuna. (I think it uses up a week's worth of mercury exposure limit.) A flu shot without Thimerosal is not only more difficult to store and transport, it's more likely to fail to give you resistance to the flu.

    3. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by tibit · · Score: 1

      Nope. It's not only about how many atoms of mercury do you eat, it's also about what substance are those atoms in. Tuna has elemental (atomic) mercury and compounds that are easily bioavailable: the body will get the mercury out of them, and that's what counts in exposure limits. Non-bioavailable mercury, like in thiomersal, is not included in those limits -- there's no mechanism in our body to break down thiomersal to get at the mercury. If the mercury is bound and cannot participate in our biochemistry, it's as good as not being there.

      It's like saying there's a limit on how many apples you can eat a week, and then insisting that oranges count under that limit too because both are fruit.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    4. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by shadowrat · · Score: 5, Funny

      I say don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

      A baby with enough Thimerosal sinks right to the bottom of the bathwater. It's pretty easy to pour the bathwater right off and find the baby still in there.

    5. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by blueg3 · · Score: 2

      Your general point is true, but your information about tuna and thimerosal is false. The mercury in tuna is methyl mercury, which is one of the less-pleasant organic mercuries. Organic mercury is quite bad compared to elemental mercury. The mercury exposure limits I'm referring to are actually for methyl mercury, since it's the common and dangerous organic mercury. Thimerosal breaks down in the body to ethyl mercury. There are not sufficient studies on ethyl mercury to determine its impact, but the rule of thumb is that ethyl mercury should be no worse than methyl mercury, so it's reasonable to apply the methyl mercury limits.

      It could actually be that thimerosal is much less bad for you than an "equivalent" amount of tuna, but it's a reasonable upper limit. (Particularly since those limits are for chronic exposure and thus are extremely low.)

    6. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      There's no safe dose.

      Are you a biochemist, or do you have a reference for that? Most chemicals, even toxic bio-accumulative ones, have safe doses.

      and they detected not only high levels of Alu, but high levels of mercury as well.

      That's deceptive. Mercury-contaminated water can easily have many orders of magnitude more mercury than fish or vaccines.

    7. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by fruitbane · · Score: 0

      Enough water will put baby at the bottom of the bathwater, what's your point? Too much oxygen will kill you, too. You want we should start removing it from the air?

    8. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2

      If you go to your doctor, you will get a thimerosal free shot. If you go to a clinic for flu shots, you won't unless you are pregnant. Without thimerosal, each vial can only be used once, just like other vaccines. Thimerosal enables multi-use vials, where 10 shots can be given from one vial. Obviously, like many products, packaging costs come into play. The single shot vial and the 10 shot vial are the same size and contain the same amount of vaccine. The difference is one can be used 10 times the other can't.

      Thimerosal is not bad, to date, nothing else has been proven as safe or effective in producing multi-use vials. Testing on thimerosal also has shown it is safe in the amounts received in a vaccination. The only thing banning it does, is drive up the cost of vaccines, by causing all vaccines to be single use vials.

      While I am not trying to dismiss the dangers of mercury, you will receive more mercury in your lifetime from breathing the air near a coal powered electrical plant than you will in a lifetime of vaccinations (each one being about the same amount of mercury as a can of tuna fish).

    9. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by tibit · · Score: 1

      Shit, pretend I never posted the original post. I have got confused for reasons I don't yet understand. You're entirely right, thiomersal quickly dissociates to ethylmercury, and the latter is plenty bioavailable. It is toxic in large enough amounts. I should have double-checked that. Apologies.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    10. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Really? Don't they give 100% oxygen to some people in hospitals?

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    11. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by oh-dark-thirty · · Score: 1

      OP here, and I know that thimerosal is not the worst mercury source once could encounter, but if there's a choice available to avoid exposure, why not take it? I also know flu shots are of dubious value, and I have always avoided them in the past, however ever since starting work in a building with poor ventilation I'd been hit with the flu every year until I started on the vax a couple years ago.

    12. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by fruitbane · · Score: 1

      Well, the greatest threat is when you are at greater than regular atmospheric pressure, but long-term exposure to over-oxygenation can cause many harmful effects on the body, many of which are reversible if symptoms are treated and oxygen levels brought down. There are cases, however, where you need much more available oxygen because your lungs are very bad at absorbing it. Wikipedia actually has a pretty nice article on the topic.

    13. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Poppycock. Ethyl mercury is not particularly bio-available and it is excreted quite rapidly from the body. The half life is about 10 days.

    14. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by makomk · · Score: 1

      I expect you read it somewhere, probably in another comment on /. that went unchallenged. It' a common argument that sounds really convincing except for the small issue of being totally and utterly scientifically wrong. It's also appealing because it makes anti-vaccine posters sound like scientifically-illiterate idiots in a way that the actual evidence doesn't; while thiomersal in vaccines appears to be safe in practice, it's entirely plausible that it could have been dangerous.

    15. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by blueg3 · · Score: 1

      I think it's really a fairly minor difference -- thimerosal doesn't contain much mercury at all (compared to common environmental sources), but the short answer is this: Thimerosal is an effective preservative. A lot of vaccines are fairly unstable -- they require fine environmental control and still have limited shelf life. As a result, some reasonable fraction of the vaccines that are given are actually not fully effective and can fail to grant resistance. Better preservatives make this a significantly less likely outcome. That's all the tradeoff is -- a fairly non-serious "less likely to go bad" versus a trivial exposure to mercury.

    16. Re:thimerosol-free flu shot by fferreres · · Score: 1

      Not deceptive....becase of my sister reaction, she measured her metals levels. That river is within acceptbale alu dose. But made my sister red spots. After she analyzed her blood, metals in the blood where too high. Same with my parents. Did you analyze yours?

      Anyway, I thank you for posting. Some others just decided my post was flamebait or troll. Guess This is ine of the few occasions my opinion is unpopular. I don't care. I post when i think i't worth saying.

      --
      unfinished: (adj.)
  9. what? Why?! by marcushnk · · Score: 1

    But Thiomerasal is non-bio accumulative!
    Why would you not leave it the fuck alone.

    --
    "Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far
    1. Re:what? Why?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would you use logic and actual data in political arguments? What's wrong with you?

  10. MOST Vaccines don't use Thimerosal by RapidEye · · Score: 5, Informative

    I've worked at a vaccines manufacturing site for a dozen years now and have helped produce hundreds of millions of doses of pediatric vaccines - I've never seen a milligram of thimerosal at our plant or any other in our supply chain. Most current technology manufacturing plants stopped using it decades ago and this really is only an issue for old facilities making old vaccines that they can't relicense using new technology.

    Technologies like single dose syringes and barrier/isolator filling lines have made preservatives largely unnecessary and even for those that still use them, there are better choices like EDTA.

    --
    "Murderer? Well, that's a harsh word. I prefer to think of myself as a Mortality Technician."
    1. Re:MOST Vaccines don't use Thimerosal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Presumably you work at a vaccine plant in a developed country that produces vaccines for use in developed countries. That works out fine in developed countries where the vaccine can be refrigerated, vaccine is used quickly after being produced, and any waste due to spoilage is relatively cheap.

      The problem comes in non-developed countries where refrigeration is often not available, times between production and usage are longer, and waste due to spoilage is relatively expensive. Do the alternatives you suggest solve all these problems, while still being cheap?

    2. Re:MOST Vaccines don't use Thimerosal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      .... this really is only an issue for old facilities making old vaccines that they can't relicense using new technology.

      Could you please explain that point further? It seems to me that you're indicating there is some legal/patent issue preventing certain vaccines to be made mercury-free. If that's the case, I think a lot of people would have a problem with that.

    3. Re:MOST Vaccines don't use Thimerosal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      making old vaccines that they can't relicense using new technology.

      That wouldn't be a patent in the way would it.

    4. Re:MOST Vaccines don't use Thimerosal by RapidEye · · Score: 1

      When a vaccine undergoes significant formulation changes, you must relicense it, typically involving clinical studies which are _VERY_ expensive. Its just easier and cheaper to keep making it the old way. Like I said in my earlier post - this isn't really an issue for vaccines made in developed countries: US, Japan, Europe, you won't find vaccines made there using thimerisol anytime in the last 20 yrs.

      --
      "Murderer? Well, that's a harsh word. I prefer to think of myself as a Mortality Technician."
    5. Re:MOST Vaccines don't use Thimerosal by RapidEye · · Score: 1

      Yes - single dose syringes address all of it except for refrigeration. Unless you use lyophilized vaccines, you'll not get around that one.
      And the price on single dose syringes has really gone down in the last 20 yrs.

      --
      "Murderer? Well, that's a harsh word. I prefer to think of myself as a Mortality Technician."
  11. good... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only vaccine that still had mercury in it was the flu shots, which are utterly useless anyway. There are much safer alternatives.

  12. Re:Mercury by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 2

    No it doesn't. Scientific study after scientific study has proven it doesn't.

    Even the first doctor who said there was a link has admitted he faked his data for monetary gain from a lawsuit.

    Unfortunately some people still hold onto this old belief- just like people still believe sugar makes kids get hyper... which has been proven not to be true (blood sugar is regulated unless you have diabetes or other such disease).

    It's an old wives tale nothing more. Vaccines do not cause autism.

    --
    "That's the way to do it" - Punch
  13. Nevermind. by mark_reh · · Score: 1

    I meant to say Thimerosal, but I guess they are the same thing. Nevermind

  14. Re:Mercury by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

    I'm assuming you're trolling as an AC, but the amount of mercury is less than what you get from eating fish.

    One guy did one study trying to link rising autism rates to vaccines, but he was getting paid to fake his research, which he has since admitted. There has never once been any evidence this is true. But sadly, since people listen to this BS, small pox, polio and other diseases are starting to come back. So maybe you think you're having a laugh. But if contributing to spread such obvious lies leads to one more kid getting polio, then I fucking hope you get crotch rot.

    --
    http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
  15. Light Bulb! by ArcherB · · Score: 0

    Does this mean that CFL bulbs will be banned as well? We've already banned incandescent lights in many places. If CFL bulbs get banned, what's left? LED? If you can find and afford them I guess.

    Time to break out the whale oil lantern I guess.

    --
    There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    1. Re:Light Bulb! by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

      Would be counter-productive if so.

      CFLs do contain trace amounts of mercury- but the extra power needed to be generated to power an incandescent bulb results in multiple times more mercury emissions from power generation than exists inside a CFL.

      So less mercury is put into the atmosphere by using CFLs than Incandescents (at least if you get any of your power from fossil fuels).

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    2. Re:Light Bulb! by PPH · · Score: 1

      There's a new product out on the market called heat globes. They give off some light as a by-product.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    3. Re:Light Bulb! by ShavedOrangutan · · Score: 1

      Then clearly power generation needs to be banned as well.

      --
      Godaddy is a scam and a ripoff.
    4. Re:Light Bulb! by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Hey you know those fluorescent tube lights that offices use? They have a drop of mercury in them as well. Always have.

      So, hope you like radically increasing every businesses' power bill and making every office feel like a reptile terrarium as part of your crusade to bring back the good ol' incandescent bulb that works as a space heater and releases a little light as a side-effect.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    5. Re:Light Bulb! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been using heat globes in my Easy Bake Oven for decades.

    6. Re:Light Bulb! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I'm already getting stupid CFL bulb "safety" scare spam showing "infectious mercury poisoning" and full of ignorant bullshit when the MSDS for mercury has been downloadable from the net since before the first web browser. One amusing thing is they missed the long flouro lights which probably have more mercury in them than CFLs. It's better to treat things with respect instead of exaggerated fear. You don't clean up poisons by hiding them because they scare you, instead you clean them up in a way that ensures you don't get poisoned.

    7. Re:Light Bulb! by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Often repeated, but based on the assumption that the CFL will die from hours of use.

      If the CFL dies from repeated on/off cycles it may or may not be true.

      For rooms like the bathroom incandescents are a good choice.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    8. Re:Light Bulb! by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

      I will give you that in some cases CFL bulbs will cause more mercury pollution than incandescent bulbs- and in some places incandescent bulbs are better.

      I think as a whole CFLs are better though (for the budget and the environment).

      I still haven't replaced all my incandescents... when the bulbs burn out in my living room ceiling fan I buy more incandescents. - CFL daylight bulbs that are compatible with 3-way dimmers are too expensive and too hard to find.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    9. Re:Light Bulb! by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Take a trip to WalMart or any store that sells Christmas lights. Get a string of about 150 LEDs for $20.00

      Actually, that's misleading, because that's only 5 watts worth of LEDs. Nevertheless, LEDs are becoming cheaper and more efficient, and there's a good chance that in a few years they'll be a reasonable lighting choice.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  16. realy wrong name by leaen · · Score: 1

    By banning mercury half of world would lose dentist care. Hint what do you think amalgam is.

    1. Re:realy wrong name by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Hopefully amalgam will be phased out everywhere eventually.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    2. Re:realy wrong name by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Currently there is no replacement for amalgam fillings that is as good on chewing surfaces. It's durable, cheaper than gold, slightly malleable, and weakly antibiotic to discourage new decay at the edge of the filling.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  17. Mercury thrmometers are already banned in EU by Hentes · · Score: 0

    We had to get one from the black market because these electric ones are inaccurate.

    1. Re:Mercury thrmometers are already banned in EU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We had to get one from the black market because these electric ones are inaccurate.

      Hint: there are non-mercury thermometers. They use "spirits", which can mean stuff-like-alcohol or magic, depending on your worldview. They have been around for a couple decades.

      Good luck with the parenting.

      http://ehs.uky.edu/hmm/thermo_facts.html

    2. Re:Mercury thrmometers are already banned in EU by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 2

      There are non-mercury, liquid metal thermometers available. http://periodictable.com/Items/031.6/index.html It's gallium, indium, and tin.

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
  18. Leave the damn planets alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First they demoted Pluto, and now they want to ban Mercury

    What about the loss of jobs at Ford plants?

    1. Re:Leave the damn planets alone by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the Koreans will just start working for Kia instead.

      BTW- An employee of Toyota told me this several years ago (don't know if it is still true):

      The #1 importer of cars into the US: General Motors.

      The #1 exporter of cars out of the US: Toyota.

      Apparantly Toyota makes more of their cars in America than GM and the American companies do.... ... off topic- but hopefull I won't get modded down for that aside.... I think it is interesting (and no not bashing the big 3).

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    2. Re:Leave the damn planets alone by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the Koreans will just start working for Kia instead.

      Kia actually has a manufacturing plant in Alabama and, I believe, are either building or just built a plant in Georgia as well. It's actually kind of funny. A few years ago I worked in the international arrivals area of the Atlanta airport, and on the daily Korean Air flight from Seoul, there were always at least 20-30 Korean men going to places such as Montgomery, Birmingham, and Little Rock. And a lot of them had papers with them with Kia letterhead.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    3. Re:Leave the damn planets alone by NiteShaed · · Score: 1

      I believe, are either building or just built a plant in Georgia as well.

      It's up and running, my Sorrento was built there. Interesting trivia about the Georgia plant; it's one of the few auto factories built with wooden floors, which is more comfortable for the workers (easier on your legs standing for long periods than concrete). I believe it's the only auto factory in the U.S. built that way. Having a car from there makes for an interesting conversation with someone who wants to shout "Buy American" while leaning on his foreign-built Chevy.

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
  19. CFL bulbs by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

    Easy, they can just break a bunch of CFL bulbs and capture the Hg from there. What's that enviro-hipster, you didn't know that you were putting mercury in the landfill when you trashed your "green" lightbulbs?

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:CFL bulbs by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      I'm sure enviro-hipsters are aware that

        i) You should dispose of compact fluorescents, just like regular fluorescents. Our local dumps have areas where you can take them.
        ii) The CFL bulb contains much less mercury than the coal you would have burned to power the incandescent equivalent.

    2. Re:CFL bulbs by _0xd0ad · · Score: 1

      I did a stumble around Google and gathered the following.

      Mercury in the coal burned annually by power plants in the US: 75 T
      Mercury released by coal-burning power plants in the US, annually: 50 T
      Percent of power used for lighting: 10%
      CFL energy use: 1/3 as much as incandescent

      Note first of all that we're already filtering out 25 T of mercury from ever entering the environment. That's great.

      So we can presently blame 5 T of mercury on lighting. If we replaced every light bulb in the country overnight with CFLs, which use 1/3 as much energy, we could reduce that to about 1.7 T. Then power plants would only be releasing about 46.7 T of mercury per year.

      Net gain so far from switching to CFLs: 3.3 T less mercury in the environment. Not as impressive as the 25 T we saved by improving filtration at the power plants, but any little bit helps, right?

      CFLs sold per year: 300 million
      Incandescents sold per year: 1.2 billion
      Life expectancy of CFLs: 5x longer than incandescent

      For simplicity again, assume 0% CFL use at some starting point, and assume that's not going to change the 1.5 billion bulbs sold per year very much. If we assume that CFLs will, in fact, last 5x longer than incandescents, we're still looking at 300 million CFLs sold per year.

      Mercury in an average CFL: 5 mg

      5 mg times 300 million is 1.65 T.

      Exactly half the mercury we saved per year by lowering our energy use, we'll be sticking in our light fixtures every year. I'm not even going to count the instant whammy of replacing every bulb in the country overnight - it's just 1.65 T per year once things settle down. So which is better - 3.3 T more mercury in the environment or 1.65 T more in our living spaces?

      And then there's the issue of disposing of the bulbs properly. Granted, broken bulbs are not really even an issue at all - the danger from the broken glass is greater than the danger from the mercury.

      Personally, I think we'd be better off sticking with incandescent or, better yet, switching to LED lighting. Meanwhile, the EPA is already tightening the screws on power plants to get them to reduce mercury emissions. They're already filtering out about 25 T of mercury per year, and new regulations are being considered that would require them to lower emissions even further.

      tl;dr, catch more of the mercury at the power plant and dispose of it safely, and let's not put it in our houses if we can help it.

    3. Re:CFL bulbs by Pence128 · · Score: 1

      or 1.65 T more in our living spaces?

      I don't get it.... do you break open your dead CFLs and huff them?

      --
      404: sig not found.
    4. Re:CFL bulbs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod parent up. The anti-environment hipsters ranting about OMG MERCURY IN CFLs are probably the same people who were hit over the head while playing luke skywalker with the fluorescent bulbs from their kitchen back when they were kids. CFLs didn't introduce anything that wasn't already there.

    5. Re:CFL bulbs by _0xd0ad · · Score: 1

      No. I pitch them in the garbage, like anyone else.

      I know, I'm a terrible person.

  20. United Nations is beyond useless by mr1911 · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately saying the United Nations has become a useless body is an incorrect statement. The United Nations has become a harmful body that is being used as a puppet for ridiculous ideas. The entire thing should be disbanded.

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    1. Re:United Nations is beyond useless by subl33t · · Score: 1

      Careful now - the Slashdot group-think monkeys have determined that criticism of the UN is forbidden. See my previous post, if you still can.

  21. Greater effect on poorer nations by fruitbane · · Score: 1

    Given that thimerosal (thiomersal) vaccine formulations are time-tested and, by now, relatively affordable to produce, a ban on thimerosal would probably most hurt poor nations. Here in the US we don't use it much, despite the fact that it has been demonstrated time and again to be relatively safe, but in poorer nations thimerosal formulations may be able to be produced more cheaply than alternatives and can be stored and distributed more easily, especially in/to more remote areas. The US and Europe will likely be unaffected, but if vaccines become more expensive or harder to get or simply less stable in poorer storage conditions in poorer nations, we could see increases in diseases which might otherwise be at least partially under control. If the UN is to include any conditions or exclusions for medical purposes, they should favor improving health in the poorer nations and not putting ideology above the needs of the citizenry.

  22. Not threaten, help. by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    No, this law would not threaten vaccines it would help them immensely.
    Mercury is only used as a preservative in vaccines, they can make them without it (either on the spot for use right away [most vaccines are used on mass in a short period of time anyways] or with a safer preservative).
    The mercury is basically the entire reason for all the anti vaccine stuff in the first place, this would solve all of that and also have the benefit of keeping tons and tons of mercury out of the already saturated bodies of the public.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:Not threaten, help. by compro01 · · Score: 1

      1. Yes, they can, but other available preservatives reduce the effectiveness of the vaccine. Not using a preservative is fine when you can either refrigerate stuff or use single-dose vials, which is considerably less than practical when you're doing vaccinations in 3rd world countries.

      2. Hahaha. We stopped using thimerosal in practically all vaccines (some flu, tetanus, and diphtheria vaccines still use it) years ago, due to the above problems being surmountable in first world countries. Lo and behold, the anti-vaccine nuts haven't gone away and moved the goalposts into the parking lot by claiming unspecified "toxins", immune system stress", and other pap.

      Furthermore, thimerosal is not bioavailable to any relevant degree.

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      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    2. Re:Not threaten, help. by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

      Mercury is only used as a preservative in vaccines, they can make them without it (either on the spot for use right away [most vaccines are used on mass in a short period of time anyways] or with a safer preservative).

      The days of William Jenner taking cowpox pustules and putting them on people have long gone. Vaccines are hard to make, require quite a bit of pre planning and are often used in places without refrigerators. Cheap, effective preservatives are key.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:Not threaten, help. by sjames · · Score: 1

      Mercury WAS at the center of the anti-vaccine stuff until it was removed from the routine childhood vaccines and nothing changed.

      Meanwhile, in the third world where you REALLY need to be vaccinated, vaccines need a good shelf life even under adverse conditions. They can't just order it via next-day air like they can in the U.S.

  23. Vaccines don't contain mercury by DrXym · · Score: 2

    Some vaccines contain thiomersal, a compound of mercury. And in such miniscule amounts it doesn't harm anyone beyond some localized redness. Many vaccines are phasing it out, not because it causes harm but because it's talking point for antivaxxer loons. Of course when thiomersal goes these loons will be screeching about the miniscule traces of formaldehyde or detergents that vaccines also contain.

    1. Re:Vaccines don't contain mercury by ccool · · Score: 1

      Thimerosal contain 49.6% Mercury (by weight)!

      I understand that the amount of thimerosal is not massive in vaccine, half of it is mercury. It is not "in such minuscule amounts it doesn't harm anyone" as you said.

      The EPA guideline state that you should not give to an infant more than 0.1 microgram of methylmercury per body weight per day.

      Also, you can find up to 2 or 3 microgram of thimerosal per ml in a vaccine. Half of which is Mercury.

      Most pediatric vaccine comes in doses of 0.5 ml, so it would make 1 to 1.5 microgram of mercury. If a baby weight 3.5 kg (just born, first vaccine of Hepatitis B) or 4.5kg (1-2 month - second vaccine of Hepatitis B) this will be a dosage of up to 0.43 microgram per kg or 0.33 microgram per kg.

      THIS IS NOT MINUSCULE.

      And this is considering that the EPA dosage is not already too high.

    2. Re:Vaccines don't contain mercury by Rakishi · · Score: 1

      Thimerosal is not methylmercury.

      So congratulations on writing a lot of utter gibberish.

    3. Re:Vaccines don't contain mercury by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thimerosal is not methylmercury.

      So congratulations on writing a lot of utter gibberish.

      Mod parent up. From Wikipedia: "Since then, it has been found that ethylmercury is eliminated from the body and the brain significantly faster than methylmercury, so the late-1990s risk assessments turned out to be overly conservative." And here's the citation for that.

    4. Re:Vaccines don't contain mercury by compro01 · · Score: 1

      The EPA guideline state that you should not give to an infant more than 0.1 microgram of methylmercury per body weight per day.

      Methyl mercury is a completely different chemical from thimerosal. You may as declare that salt is dangerous above 15 ppm as that's the limit for chlorine gas.

      furthermore, methyl mercury is bioaccumulative, thimerosal is not.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    5. Re:Vaccines don't contain mercury by _0xd0ad · · Score: 1

      Salt contains 39% sodium and 61% chlorine by weight. 100% sodium is a dangerous metal which explodes in a reaction with water that produces hydrogen gas, lye, and lots of heat. Elemental chlorine is a deadly green gas that forms hydrochloric acid when it hits moisture, such as in your lungs if it's inhaled.

      It's not a compound, it's a molecule. That mercury isn't just running around free.

      You've heard of that experiment with iron filings and powdered sulfur, yes? The one where you mix them, then separate them with a magnet, then mix them again and heat them over a Bunsen burner? And then it no longer sticks to your magnet, because you've turned that iron and sulfur into iron sulfide, FeS. Unlike iron, it's non-magnetic and doesn't conduct electricity; unlike sulfur, it won't burn. In general, it doesn't resemble either iron or sulfur.

      Same thing here. It's not mercury, it's a molecule containing mercury. It's not at all the same.

    6. Re:Vaccines don't contain mercury by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So how does a miniscule amount that cant do any harm, operate as a preservative ?

  24. Re:Mercury by CubicleView · · Score: 1

    I conducted an experiment on this very topic at my 3 year nephew’s birthday party. After administering the sugar he went nuts. I didn’t use a very large sample set but the results were fairly conclusive none the less.

  25. Re:Mercury by tibit · · Score: 1

    Is it you, Dr Bob?

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  26. How Is This Bad? by shambalagoon · · Score: 4, Informative

    There is no safe amount of mercury exposure. It is a potent neurotoxin. This is a great treaty and I hope it succeeds. We're smart enough to find other ways of accomplishing what we need. Under pressure from autism-related claims, it was replaced by something safer in vaccines. Digital thermometers take temperature without using mercury. Fluorescent lights will soon be replaced with LEDs.

    There's a lot of crazy people in the world. Every little thing we can do to remove neurotoxins from the environment is a good step.

    Next: do the same thing with lead. I'm sick of seeing it in all my christmas light plastics.

    1. Re:How Is This Bad? by BeardedChimp · · Score: 1

      There is no safe amount of mercury exposure. It is a potent neurotoxin.

      Many food types including fish contain mercury. Are you saying that eating fish is not safe?

      There's a lot of crazy people in the world.

      Such hyperbole only serves to add to the craziness in the world.

    2. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no safe amount of mercury exposure

      Alles ist Gift und nichts ist Gift; der Unterschied besteht in der Dosierung.

    3. Re:How Is This Bad? by introp · · Score: 1

      This is a load of horse shit. Yes, atomic mercury is bad for you. However, there are several useful and demonstrably non-harmful mercury compounds. "There's no safe amount of arsenic exposure!" "Hey, your cellphone contains some gallium arsenide transistors. OMGYERPOISONED"

    4. Re:How Is This Bad? by tirerim · · Score: 1

      No safe amount? Then I guess we're all screwed, because there will always be microscopic traces of mercury in the environment. Unless you stop eating entirely, you're probably going to be ingesting at least a few atoms of it on a regular basis. Same with uranium, arsenic, and any number of other toxic elements.

    5. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is like saying there is no safe level of exposure to chlorine because chlorine gas is so toxic. Yet salt is necessary for life. Different mercury compounds are... different.

    6. Re:How Is This Bad? by Erelas · · Score: 1

      Next: do the same thing with lead. I'm sick of seeing it in all my christmas light plastics.

      Agh! That's *it*! I'm ditching those lights and going back to mounting candles on my tree this Christmas.

    7. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no safe amount of mercury exposure. It is a potent neurotoxin.

      So the UNEP report is kind of like installing a morality core?

    8. Re:How Is This Bad? by Kymermosst · · Score: 1

      Next: do the same thing with lead. I'm sick of seeing it in all my christmas light plastics.

      Especially since you were obviously forced to buy them under duress!

      --
      "Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
    9. Re:How Is This Bad? by mjr167 · · Score: 1

      Not to mention many fruit juices.

    10. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The toxicity of mercury varies wildly with what form it comes in and the route of exposure. It takes a huge acute oral dose of metallic mercury to be fatal (though much lower by inhalation), Thimerosal has an oral LD 50 of 75 mg/kg, methyl mercury has an LD 50 of ~30mg/kg, and dimethyl mercury has the incredibly low LD50 of 50ug/kg. Though mercury can be a terrible chronic threat the body; it can and does deal with a very low level input all the time. I think it is great that we are cutting back on mercury use, but to say that no amount of exposure is safe and that we should ban all mercury use is absurd. I remember a scare a few years back about mercury in corn syrup, after looking at the papers the amount found averaged out to something like three parts per trillion; well below the quantity that the body can deal with on a regular basis. Blanket bans and alarmism aren't going to help anything, the treaty should be tempered, as I am sure it will be.

    11. Re:How Is This Bad? by gr8_phk · · Score: 1

      Many food types including fish contain mercury. Are you saying that eating fish is not safe?

      Yep, eating fish (especially from some inland lakes) on a daily basis is discouraged for that very reason.
      Here's a link.

    12. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "There is no safe amount of mercury exposure."

      I dunno, how about 1 atom of mercury. I can guarantee that every glass of water you drink has at least that much. How about fish, now we're talking about 1000's of atoms. You'll have to give those up too. In fact, anything that eats plants an lives more than a year is likely to accrue mercury in it's system, so I guess beef and most other animals are out. And those animals are getting the mercury from somewhere, so I suppose you shouldn't eat plants either. In fact, there's at least a few atoms of mercury in the air you're breathing, so I highly suggest you hold your breath until you can be sure all of these things contain no mercury, after all, there is no safe amount of mercury exposure.

    13. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fluorescent lights will soon be replaced with LEDs.

      There's a lot of crazy people in the world. Every little thing we can do to remove neurotoxins from the environment is a good step.

      Replacing fluorescent lights (mercury, a neurotoxin) with LEDs (lead in the solder connections, another neurotoxin) doesn't remove neurotoxins from the environment. Do us a favor and stop posting before your idiocy contaminates other respectable Slashdotters... oh wait.

    14. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And we could also do with banning that dangerous dihydrogen monoxide stuff while we're at it,,

      Seriously, go crawl back to your cave if every potentially harmful element on the planet scares you shitless (FYI, that's all of them). The rest of us want to actually climb UP the tech tree.

    15. Re:How Is This Bad? by shambalagoon · · Score: 1

      Clearly we can't avoid mercury exposure entirely, and smaller amounts are not going to have a noticeable affect. I'm not a hysterical lunatic like most of these responses would like to portray me as. I don't think anyone's going to instantly die from small amounts of environmental exposure.

      That it's a potent neurotoxin is well known. That's why the UN is considering a ban. For the sake of argument let's say an arbitrary small amount of mercury exposure does damage to .0001% of your neurons. Will you notice? Probably not. But where do you draw the line? What amount is okay? Damage to .01% of your neurons? No doubt if some neurological conditions develop once you're 40, 50, 60 years old, you'd just attribute it to age. But maybe that wouldn't have happened if you hadn't stood around inhaling mercury vapors when the fluorescent lights broke in your garage, or if you hadn't lived near that landfill where these small amounts collect to have a bigger effect.

      We know it's dangerous, and we're clever enough to find ways around using it in mass-produced consumer goods, so why not do it?

    16. Re:How Is This Bad? by Brian_Ellenberger · · Score: 1

      The dose makes the poison. http://learn.caim.yale.edu/chemsafe/references/dose.html

      Your body is ~60% water, but you can die by drinking too much: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication. Every day we are bathed in DNA-damaging ionizing radiation called sunlight, yet we somehow don't all get skin cancer. And yes, you can drink safe amounts of water and receive unsafe amounts of radiation. But understanding the difference between A causing B "always" and the messy reality that it involves a safe and unsafe range is the difference between being a paranoid lunatic and a sane and educated person.

    17. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While you are at it, you could also mount a fight against a common household compound that is made up from an explosive and a poison.

      Sodium, when combined with water, explodes. And chorine of course is quite toxic.

      I would also accept dihydrogen monoxide as an answer to "what is a combination of an explosive and a poison?". Hydrogen burns with explosive force in air, and oxygen is poisonous to many forms of life.

      It is useful to understand that mercury is different from compounds containing mercury, just as it is useful to understand that sodium is different from table salt, and hydrogen is different from water.

    18. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many food types including fish contain mercury. Are you saying that eating fish is not safe?

      The Department of Natural Resources issues advisories against eating too much seafood from waters with high mercury content.

    19. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm all for removing toxins from our lives, but we need to be educated about this and not get hysterical about things that aren't actually dangerous. We are exposed to far more Lead and Mercury from the burning of coal and Leaded gasoline than from a vaccine or a broken CFL. To say nothing of your average fish meal.

    20. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and all my bullets seem to have a lot of lead in them as well!

      Scandalous I tell you

    21. Re:How Is This Bad? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Oooh too bad. It turns out that mercury is present naturally in the environment from a number of sources including volcanic emissions, weathering of mercury containing minerals (such as cinnibar) and so on. So guess what, no matter what you do you are going to be exposed to it to some extent. So it is rather useless to try to eliminate it entirely.

    22. Re:How Is This Bad? by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      There is a safe amount of mercury exposure 2 parts per billion is what is allowed in drinking water. Baring nuclear materials there is nothing that is dangerous at such a small dose.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    23. Re:How Is This Bad? by 32771 · · Score: 1

      Great, I should finally get rid of my mercury fillings, muhahaha!
      I don't know why I accepted them, martyr syndrome maybe, business as usual?

      --
      Je me souviens.
    24. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll hear none of your dosing theory!

    25. Re:How Is This Bad? by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      The thing you don't seem to get is that there's a massive difference between atomic mercury and compounds of mercury.

      It's as big as the difference between chlorine(Cl), so toxic that it was used as a chemical weapon in war and compounds of chlorine which make fish and chips tasty (NaCl).

      We know chlorine is dangerous, that doesn't make table NaCl dangerous.

      We know mercury is dangerous, that doesn't make all compounds of mercury dangerous.

      you're following the lead of the tabloid newspapers rather than rationality.

    26. Re:How Is This Bad? by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      LED's? you mean those things which are made with lead and arsenic?

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110210124136.htm

    27. Re:How Is This Bad? by aurispector · · Score: 1

      The largest source of mercury and other heavy metal pollution is coal burning power plants. Unfortunately there is nothing available that can replace coal as a reliable demand power source in a reasonably cost effective manner. Oh, except for nuclear power, which if you include TMI, Chernobyl and Fukushima, have still spewed fewer nuclear isotopes into the atmosphere than coal plants.

      They'll probably target dental amalgam next since it's half mercury, even though there is no evidence that dentists and auxiliaries have higher levels of disease than the general population. Who'd a thunk people exposed to it all day, every day would show no sign of disease. After all, we KNOW mercury is bad, bad, bad!

      Scooby doo ending: We'd have fixed the environment already if it weren't for those pesky facts!

      --
      I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
    28. Re:How Is This Bad? by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      There is no safe amount of mercury exposure. It is a potent neurotoxin.

      Of course there is a safe amount. Do you seriously believe that a single molecule will damage your brain? If so, why is it considered safe to eat fish in moderation?

      When I was a child, parents would paint a mercury-containing antiseptic on every minor cut and scrape. This is no longer done, but no harmful effects were ever identified.

    29. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, when absorbed. You could actually drink the mercury right out of a mercury thermometer and probably wouldn't show any symptoms because it wasn't available in a form that your body could use. Elemental mercury isn't dangerous any more than small amounts can convert into mercury salts. Mercury salts, on the other hand, are very bioavailable and are very dangerous. An example of that is dimethyl mercury, of which a drop will be very fatal. Your body has no use for mercury and won't take it in unless it looks like a molecule that it uses anyway.

    30. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You melt down your Christmas lights to test them for lead?

    31. Re:How Is This Bad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. Now drop a LED and a CFL onto a cement floor and tell me which one shatters and exposes the toxic materials that it was made from.

    32. Re:How Is This Bad? by BeardedChimp · · Score: 1

      He said there was no safe amount of mercury exposure. Which means that eating one fish a year would be entirely unsafe by his logic. Except that its not.

  27. Would a blanket ban mean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...the end of Queen music?

  28. In short, yes by Quila · · Score: 1

    It's evil, it must be banned, period. These are idealist politicians we're talking about, reality need not apply.

    It's just like the landmine ban, no exceptions, even for cases when the reasons for the ban don't apply (which is the reason the US didn't sign).

  29. Methyl v. Ethyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are 2 types of mercury that relate to this discussion. Methylmecury is toxic, but is NOT used in vaccines. It accumulates in the organs and each exposure increases your risk of toxicity.

    Ethylmecury (or organic mercury) is eliminated very quickly by the body and does NOT accumulate in the organs. Exposure is limited to incidence, not lifetime. This is the kind used as a preservative in vaccines as thimerisol.

  30. But we just deregulated mercury. by Kenja · · Score: 1

    We just removed regulations preventing cement factories from spewing mercury into the air, I doubt this congres will let the UN attack the "job creators" profits.

    --

    "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
  31. Light Bulbs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is brilliant following on the US ban on incandescent light bulbs given all the CFLs contain mercury. Guess we'll all be pushed to buying the massively expensive LED alternatives next.

  32. What about lightbulbs? by Bardwick · · Score: 0

    I mean, we were just now forced to buy mercury laden light bulbs. Suppose to save me a bajillion dollars over ten years...

  33. The only thing this threatens is someone's wallet by RanceJustice · · Score: 1

    I've been involved in a lot of research regarding many persistent diseases and the poorly understood pathogens that cause them. I won't go deeply into the whole debate here but suffice it to say that no amount of mercury, regardless of form, is good for the body. While the whole "Vaccines just cause autism" thing isn't accurate either, realize that the vast majority of studies that try to say that the forms of mercury used in vaccines is safe, are paid for by industries that find it the cheapest thing to use as a stabilizer. I've personally cared for and turned around patients with many conditions from supposed "autism" and "MS", fibroymalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome, by finding the real cause of their illness (these conditions are all real, but they are SYMPTOMS the same way "chest pain" is not a complete diagnosis) and sometimes that has involved vaccines, heavy metal exposure at amounts normally thought to be safe, and a variety of other facets that are dismissed by the powers that be due to hubris or financial graft.

    Suffice it to say for a totally healthy individual vaccines themselves are not bad, but many of the impurities, stabilizers, and components that have little to do with the vaccine itself can cause reactions, including latent reactions or add to a cumulative issue. From mercury derivatives to allergens to preservatives, most are included because of cost and shelf life - cutting a few cents here and there or making something shelf stable for 5 years instead of two. Patients should have the option to select for vaccines without these cost-cutting adulterants, but because of corporate greed and their vehement and unethical protest that these ingredients are safe, they don't even create alternate variants. Its important to note that because of patents that shouldn't exist in the first place, this also stops 3rd party labs from compounding safer versions.

    There is nothing wrong with this ban - if it forces others to adapt and make safer vaccines then its a great benefit. Unfortunately, I'm worried that the usual bureaucratic nightmare will occur, the right palms will be greased, and exceptions will be made. Write your representatives supporting this ban and/or get involved with advocacy groups like the Organic Consumers Association. There is absolutely no threat by this ban save to the pockets of the greedy and unethical and its passage will go a long way toward less environmental toxins in many facets of industry.

  34. Re:Mercury by friedo · · Score: 2

    Would he have gone nuts anyway because it was a party? Did he go nuts because he has been conditioned (even unconsciously) by adults that candy == go nuts? Did you control by giving artificially sweetened candy to other children at the party? (Even better would be a third group with no candy.)

    I think you have failed to eliminate a vast array of confounding factors in your experiment. Not worthy of publication. :)

  35. What about... by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

    While everybody has latched on to the use of mercury in some vaccines, what about the mercury amalgam used in most dental work? Like the vaccine mercury, it is not harmful to the patient, but it would be difficult to make amalgam fillings with out it.

  36. Lightbulbs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What about CFLs and other fluorescent lightbulbs?

  37. Nonsense by AWeishaupt · · Score: 1
    This reminds me of an interesting anecdote from Patrick Moore: "When I left Greenpeace it was in the midst of them adopting a campaign to ban chlorine worldwide. Like I said, ‘you guys, this is one of the elements in the periodic table, you know; I mean, I’m not sure if it’s in our jurisdiction to be banning a whole element."

    There is no government in the world that could possibly introduce legislation that says "ban mercury" without details, caveats and exemptions. That would be like saying "ban dihydrogen monoxide".

    Let's look at the RoHS legislation, for example. RoHS says that lead, cadmium, hexavalent chromium, mercury, PBBs and PBDEs are restricted. But RoHS has - and it needs to have - a list of exemptions as long as your arm. For example, suppose you have a solar cell based on cadmium telluride or a light-dependent resistor based on cadmium sulfide or a piezoelectric transducer based on lead zirconate titanate. These technologies have no realistic lead-free or cadmium-free replacements, so they're exempted from RoHS.

    They don't just say "these elements are banned, period"... that would not be realistic at all.

    Look at the Montreal protocol, for example - it certainly does not just say "CFCs are banned, period."

    If we said "Mercury is banned in manmade technology, period", that would mean banning mercury-vapor discharge ultraviolet lamps used to erase EPROMs, for tanning, and for sterilisation in medical facilities and microbiology laboratories. It would ban essentially all fluorescent lightbulbs.

    It would ban all high-pressure sodium lamps and the like that contain mercury.

    It would ban all coal-fired power generation, since this is responsible for by far the largest share of man-made mercury emission into the environment. And presumably it would ban tuna products, too.

    It would ban the use of thiomersal as a bacteriostatic preservative in mascara, eyedrops, contact lens solution, antivenoms, immunoglobulins and other drugs, not just vaccines (most vaccines don't even contain thiomersal, anyway.)

    It would ban the use of mercuric acetate and aluminium amalgam, etc, as catalysts and chemical reagents, both in industry and in the research laboratory.

    It would ban the use of mercury standards for mercury analysis by analytical technologies such as atomic absorption spectroscopy. It would ban the use of mercury compounds for calibration of NMR spectrometers for Hg-199 NMR.

    It would ban all use of HgCdTe and HgZnTe in infrared detectors for IR spectroscopy, IR astronomy, various types of sensors, FLIR imagers, night vision, military technologies and so forth.

    Obviously it's nonsense.

    1. Re:Nonsense by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      Could you do me a favor and write a letter to EPA explaining why they can't just decide to ban lead in AvGas? They need to hear some logic and reason about why they can't, with the stroke of a pen, make billions of dollars worth of privately-held assets (airplanes) worthless, especially when there is currently no viable alternative.

  38. 128 comments and summary still not fixed by Wdi · · Score: 1

    The editors still have not bothered to fix 'thermisol' in the summary - and it is even spelled correctly (thiomersal, or thimerosal) in the newspaper article....

    just like the superconductors/semiconductors fiasco yesterday.

    How can you believe you are intelligently discussing a science-related issue when you cannot even name the topic correctly?

    1. Re:128 comments and summary still not fixed by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      To be fair, I don't think the editors themselves are participating in the discussion. They're more likely off writing the works of Shakespeare on typewriters.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
  39. Gpod News, It Does Not Matter by bxwatso · · Score: 1

    The good news is that the UN has no legal authority whatsoever over any country in the world. Sometimes the UN fights a war, but that is just cover for the country (usually the US) doing the actual fighting. The UN cannot pass laws, fight wars, or do anything. It is at best a debating society.

    1. Re:Gpod News, It Does Not Matter by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      A debate society that costs the taxpayers of its member countries billions of dollars every year - money that is totally wasted...

  40. Re:Mercury by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

    Hate to contradict you since you are generally right on the beam, but *smallpox* is not coming back.

  41. Mercury rarely used in vaccines by estitabarnak · · Score: 1

    Thimerosal is pretty rare in vaccines. First, it's only used in vials with multiple-doses in it, so that eliminates a fair chunk already. DTaP & Tdap, polio, MMR, Hep A, Hep B, rabies, smallpox... No Thimerosal. The only vaccine that you're likely to come in to contact that MAY have some of the preservative is some seasonal influenza vaccines. Even then, a Thimerosal-free version is often available.

    Find a list of vaccines and their Thimerosal content and history here: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228

    I'm assuming the case is similar in the EU. As previously stated by others, the concern shouldn't be over vaccines but just about everything else. There're so many Hg sources and uses that a total ban is bullshit.

    1. Re:Mercury rarely used in vaccines by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      > Thimerosal is pretty rare in vaccines. First, it's only used in vials with multiple-doses in it, so that eliminates a fair chunk already. DTaP & Tdap, polio, MMR, Hep A, Hep B, rabies, smallpox... No Thimerosal. The only vaccine that you're likely to come in to contact that MAY have some of the preservative is some seasonal influenza vaccines.

      I did some research, and that is true.

      Some would argue that having mercury in a shot you have to repeat once a year, as opposed to a shot (polio, smallpox) you only get once or a shot (rabies) you may never have in your lifetime, is kind-of the point.

      My family doesn't bother with the influenza vaccine for several reasons, your mileage as always may vary. I honestly don't know if Thimerosal going away for good will change my mind. Back in the old days, you got the 'flu and *liked* it.[1]

      [1] Because it kept you home from school.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  42. Won't somebody think of the Studios? by skogula · · Score: 1

    Does this mean that Hollywood will have to find a replacement for mercury switches in movie plots that include mad bombers?

  43. Re:Mercury by The+Slashdot+8Ball · · Score: 1

    Also by administering the sugar did you then start to notice his "nuts" behaviour when previously you weren't looking for it?

    It's very important to blind (and double blind) studies to remove our biases. A better experiment would have been to prepare some sugary and sugar free candy, have an assistant randomly distribute them between the children (and keep track of which children get which candy). Only once you've rated the behaviour of the children do you find out what candy they were given.

  44. Mercury retention by gr8_phk · · Score: 1
    I'm going to start by agreeing with you on there no evidence of a mercury-autism link. I just want to counter this point:

    The compound in vaccines is not retained by the way elemental mercury is, it has a halflife of 18 days (it's actually removed from the brain even faster than that) and it does not interact biologically the same way elemental mercury does. You may as well avoid salt since Sodium and Chlorine are both poisonous

    I've seen that argument when people complain about mercury in vaccines. Oh, it leaves the bloodstream with such and so time. My question is "where does it go". Leaving the blood stream is not the same as leaving the body. Mercury accumulates somewhere else (fatty tissue?). Is there conclusive proof that the mercury in vaccines does not get stored, changed, or in any way contribute to making you dumber? Which you ack that some mercury does. To me it seems a bad idea to use it - there are other preservatives.

    1. Re:Mercury retention by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      Fecal excretion. It's pooped out.

      Of course I acknowledge that mercury causes neurological disorders, elemental mercury is intensely dangerous, especially for children. But then I tell you what, if you don't believe that there's a difference, over the course of the today I'll eat a gram of sodium today if you do. Except, I get to choose which compound I get to ingest, you have to ingest the elemental version. Let me know how it goes.

    2. Re:Mercury retention by Zed+Pobre · · Score: 5, Informative

      I do research in organic chemistry for living and a fellow organic chemist one time accidentally dropped a drop of Dimethyl mercury on her hand. It went through the gloves that she was wearing and onto her skin. Within several hours she was dead from what the doctors described in layman terms as "her brain melted".

      *sigh* If that's what you know about it, she wasn't a "fellow" organic chemist except that she once worked in the same field. Her name was Karen Wetterhahn, and she worked at Dartmouth College. She died almost a full year after the accident, and she didn't even recognize the symptoms for months. If she had reported the spill and gotten treatment earlier, she might not have died. It wasn't as if mercury poisoning was something nobody knew about.

      Her case was important because before her accident, latex gloves were considered sufficient protective gear (which is why she didn't think to report it and get tested). After she died, safety standards were changed to recommend much heavier-duty protective gear when possible, and she started showing up in cautionary lectures about safety (apparently with the facts being watered down into legend by the time they got to you).

      I don't know where you got the bit about "her brain melted", which it wouldn't have, though there was certainly a lot of neurological damage, and history notes that her coma was a particularly ugly one.

    3. Re:Mercury retention by asher09 · · Score: 1

      I only verbally heard about this from my colleagues, but I heard that it happened at one of the smaller startup biotech companies in Oregon and not at a college. So maybe we're talking about two different incidences? Having said that, since I only heard this verbally, I'm sure some of the details I heard or remember could be wrong.

      --
      Some were yelling one thing, some another. Most of them had no idea what was going on or why they were there. Acts19:32
    4. Re:Mercury retention by asher09 · · Score: 1

      Oh I see, you got the story from the Wikipedia page. I never check Wikipedia for chemistry stuff... Anyway that's just an anecdote and I think my point still stands.

      --
      Some were yelling one thing, some another. Most of them had no idea what was going on or why they were there. Acts19:32
    5. Re:Mercury retention by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      I feel a few facts need to be added to your otherwise informative post: mercury poisoning is infamous for being detected only months after the fact. You definitely positively must know that you had contact with organometallic mercury (such as dimethylmercury, which killed Wetterhahn), otherwise you will only notice the first symptoms much later.

      And as for treatment, which is chelation: dimethylmercury is extremely hard to remove by chelation, since it tends to be re-absorbed before it's expelled. Unlike hydrosoluble mercury compounds which respond well to chelation, dimethylmercury is almost impossible to remove. That's why the methylmercury ion has such a tendency to bioaccumulate (in large fish and humans) - there is no good mechanism for it to be removed, and it is recyrcled in the body.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
  45. Vaccines are just the start by Solandri · · Score: 1

    So... this means there's going to be a worldwide ban on coal as a fuel source, burning of trash, medical and hazardous waste incinerators, cement production, and CFL bulbs? Good luck with that.

  46. Thimerosal is used in the US by gr8_phk · · Score: 2

    Thimerosal has not been used in vaccines in Western nations in decades

    It might not be used in children, but it is used. They were offering free flu shots where I work, and I asked them if it contained Thimerosal. They said yes, I passed, I got the flu (H1N1 season) and now it turns out I may be better off (see articles about H1N1 possibly triggering broad flu immunity). But my point is that it is still used here in the US.

    1. Re:Thimerosal is used in the US by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      I got that flu, too. I was down for two days, third day I was ... recovered, somewhat. Eh. It was pretty weak, if you ask me; sure it put me down hard, but I pretty much slept it off.

  47. How dangerous is Hg, exactly? by Hadlock · · Score: 1

    This feels like one of those "dog poop fines" legislative bills. Everyone is for it, and everyone in the end benefits from it. You get to look like a hero legislator without tackling any difficult (or controversial) problems.
     
    Seriously though, how dangerous is Mercury. Before you fire up Wikipedia to tell me about how mercury causes brain damage and birth abnormalities, let me ask you these questions:
     
    1. What are the symptoms of mercury poisoning
    2. What is the treatment for acute mercury poisoning
    3. Who do you know, or have heard of who has experienced mercury poisoning?
     
    Seriously, can you answer those off the top of your head? What about for poison ivy? Getting sprayed by a skunk? A snake bite.
     
    Those are things that actually happen in real life. Dwight Shrute can tell you how to handle a bear attack depending on the time of day, and I'm sure many astute movie watchers can tell you how to wrestle an alligator/crocodile, but nobody can tell you anything about mercury other than that it's bad for you.
     
    While yes, I'm sure Mercury is very bad for you, I think we've successfully legislated away the problem. Between the mercury in my "silver" fillings (quite a bit! stop googling about how "wrong I am and check out the amount of mercury you ingest via tooth fillings) and the fish I eat, I am a rather healthy individual. I think we've solved the mercury problem.

    --
    moox. for a new generation.
  48. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  49. Re:Mercury by SETIGuy · · Score: 1

    Was the sugar in the form of an energy drink or something else caffeinated?

  50. Mercury Ban Threatens Vaccines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No it doesn't.

  51. Re:The only thing this threatens is someone's wall by Quila · · Score: 1

    There is absolutely no threat by this ban save to the pockets of the greedy and unethical and its passage will go a long way toward less environmental toxins in many facets of industry.

    How about a threat to the poor? Say now we spend $10 million to vaccinate a poor population. Now mercury is banned, we need vaccines that are more expensive to manufacture, and that $10 million will vaccinate fewer people. The "safer" versions have been around for decades, they're just more expensive to make (ten one-use vials vs. one ten-use vial are obviously more expensive to make) and less effective in the field, driving up the cost of vaccination.

    Because of your ban, would you like to decide which kids get to die because they weren't vaccinated? Or would you like to pony up the extra manufacturing cost out of your own wallet in order to save them?

  52. Re:Mercury by logjon · · Score: 0

    So the sugar had no such effect on the vast majority of children to whom it was administered then?

    --
    The stories and info posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
    Only fools would take it as fact.
  53. crazyness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mercury isn't plutonium.. Heck I have rolled it around in my hands. True you don't want to breathe Mercury vapors, but things are getting crazy.

    Might as well ban O2 because in high enough concentrations that is poisonous.

    Stop trying to child-proof the world. We really don't need our hand held by the world treaty enforcers every second of our lives.

    At some point things will be so absurdly regulated that there will be poop monitors in every toilet and any deviation from your assigned duties gets one assigned to making soylent green.

    1. Re:crazyness by cheros · · Score: 1

      Yup, my thoughts exactly.

      There used to be a medical product to dry out wounds, mercurochrome (at least, that's what it was called here). This product is now banned on account of containing mercury, but there has never been a proven case of poisoning with this product.

      The issue is that it still is the best way to quickly dry out the lymphatic wetness of an abrasive wound so it can start to heal. There is still (as far as I know) no decent replacement that does the job so well.

      I'm glad I still have supplies of the stuff, but that will run out eventually :(.

      What's next? Banning surgical knives because they can possibly cut someone? I'm sure they mean well, but it would be nice for them to actually investigate the effects of any ban before they enact it.. But hey, that would be sensible. Can't have that in politics because then no-one would try to buy favors.. /cynic

      --
      Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
  54. Banning food in resturants? by zenyu · · Score: 1

    I think the ban is on Sodium Chloride - try cooking with Sea salt.

    Sea salt is almost entirely Sodium Chloride with just an insignificant portion of shellfish and Potassium Chloride thrown in.

    Meanwhile, I'd like a ban on Monosodium Glutamate (MSG) in restaurants

    Ok, so you want no meat, no tomatoes, no mushrooms, no cheese, no dairy at all. It sounds like you would like restaurants to serve only black coffee with refined sugar.

    Doh! I've been trolled!

  55. Re:Mercury by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

    I am mistaken from time to time. I'm probably mixing up articles with another disease.

    --
    http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
  56. Re:Mercury by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dr. Bob would have claimed that subluxations are what cause autism. Unless you visit your chiropractor for an adjustment.

    Now, yes, I'm sure mercury causes all sorts of subluxations, but let's put the blame where it really belongs here...

    P.S. My personal suspicion is that the rise in strange diseases such as autism is really just a sign that humans in general are getting inbred. I'd be very interested to know if anyone's done a study on the rates of them in children from mixed-race families.

  57. What else is in vaccines? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what other fun stuff beside mercury do they
    put into vaccines?

    How is a random non-medical person supposed to
    know how to avoid dangerous vaccines while
    allowing safe ones?

    Why can't we require coal users to reduce/eliminate
    mercury pollution?

  58. I wish mercury were safe by jgoemat · · Score: 1

    I mean how cool would it be to swim in a pool of mercury? The density is 13.5 times that of water and the human body, I think you could stand up in a pool of mercury and it wouldn't even reach your crotch.

    1. Re:I wish mercury were safe by Greyfox · · Score: 1

      Back in the day, our chemistry professor floated a boat made of lead in an open container of mercury. That was before they really understood just how toxic all that shit was. Which, by the way, probably explains why Congress is right now, all of them being my age or older. They're the "Leaded Paint" generation.

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  59. Its Thimerosal not thermisol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the word is shortened : Thio-mercury-salicylate
    and I work with it as part of vaccine manufacturing which is what I do. I'd love something else to be discovered that works as well so that we could stop using the stuff. It is seriously toxic.

  60. Fillings way worse than any vaccine issues. by Fubari · · Score: 1

    A mercury ban can't happen soon enough. Amalgam fillings are way worse than any vaccine mercury issues (which as others have pointed out are being phased out). Mercury Does Leak Out of Your Fillings

    1. Re:Fillings way worse than any vaccine issues. by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Please be careful of whatever you read at mercola. He frequently (deliberately?) confuses insecticide with insect repellant.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    2. Re:Fillings way worse than any vaccine issues. by Fubari · · Score: 1

      I know :-) Mercola goes pretty far off the beaten path sometimes.
      What I like about Mercola is he does a good job of explaining his reasoning, which gives me a starting point to learn more. (And I'm pretty skeptical about what I read in general; whenever I need to understand something, I treat most everything as another data point.)
      And yeah, I could see him raging against insect repellant. (I can't say that is a good idea or a bad idea; I'd need to do more research. It just isn't something that I've needed to research thus far.)

  61. Fraction of What by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since you are throwing out numbers, can you tell me what the original numbers are that you are taking "a fraction" and "20%" of?

    1. Re:Fraction of What by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      They are just as good as the number equating Vaccines with autism. Complected made up but exaggerated to make a point that more people will die without vaccination then the remote possibility that it will cause autism.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  62. cfl's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am much more concerned about the impact on cfl's. Hopefully this will not impact theirr manufacture or sale. That is a very baby / bath water approach.

  63. Re:The only thing this threatens is someone's wall by RanceJustice · · Score: 1

    You're being more than a little melodramatic with your phrasing. The costs of making safer vaccines are in the range of pennies. In the particular instance of multi-use vials vs unit dosing, unit dosing is by far a more preferable way to deal with the extremely poor. Sure, per dose its more to have unit dose packaging, but if you think about the huge amounts of money that come from 'deferred" single vials its actually MUCH cheaper in the long run. There was actually a pretty decent WHO report on this not long ago that applies to ALL medicine. Basically, if someone swipes the one giant bottle/vial of vaccine or painkiller than you're out a ton of doses plus you have to deal with the not cost negative effects of black market sales (not just for abuseable substances either. In Africa for instance there's a black market of trading supposedly surplus medical supplies for other goods - of course, they're really stolen etc..).

    The mildly increased cost can easily be handled by a variety of options from eliminating drug patents to making laws against these adulterants in medical equipments like some nations have done. You're not lamenting the "extra cost" of making medical supplies that don't include lead, because it has been mandated that keeping lead out of modern medical supplies is just part of manufacturing; the cost is negligible and we're all better for it. Making socially and medically viable regulations and cutting a lot of the red tape + loopholes that corps fulfilling these contracts use to save money at the cost of people's health will make sure that the most healthful drugs and supplies are produced at the lowest price.

    There are multitudes of benefits that come from this kind of ban. A few cents difference on a healthful product is far from one of the major issues that organizations face getting the destitute vaccinated.

  64. No no! Harder to horde? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will this make it harder for me to horde medical supplies long enough to drive the market price up?

  65. Mercury by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Guys, guys...
    Injecting mercury directly into blood is not a good idea, and has never been.
    As far as i know, there are alternative which are less problematic. use them.

  66. A Ban on CFLs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't CFLs use mercury? Does this mean we have to go back to incandescent light bulbs?

  67. Tuna by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stop vaccinating tuna !!

  68. allergic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As someone with an allergy to thimerosal, I can say i am happy to hear this news. Thimerosal is still used in most vaccines, albeit in reduced amounts, and is completely unnecessary since other preservatives are available.

  69. Yeah, nothing to see here, cuz it's DARK!!! by Crazy+Taco · · Score: 1

    Unless you have candles. Because that's seriously about the only light source that will be left to us, unless LEDs suddenly make a huge technological leap. In the US, congress banned the incandescent light, and a ban on Mercury would eliminate all flourescent lighting (including all the new CFLs). So yeah, back to candles. Government people are such morons.

    --
    Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.
  70. A blanket ban of mercury = death to the CFL push by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They'll just have to come up with another way to make replacement bulbs for CFL lighting...

  71. Rather than "threaten" vaccines... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    ...this should be viewed as a *good* thing for vaccines, as it removes a major issue with the populance at large. If there's never been an issue with mercury in vaccines, there will be no effect, and if there was an issue, the removal of same and requirement to find a different method of preservation, will be a positive thing. At very least, the people who don't get vaccinated will have one less reason.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  72. Re:Mercury by CubicleView · · Score: 1

    Sugar free candy isn't really candy though, so it's difficult to do a fair control that way. My nephew might have just gone bleck horrible candy. I was of course half joking before, although his party was real and he did go nuts during it. He lay down on the floor and span in circles after eating cake, something he didn't do even when opening presents. But I can't imagine he would have gone as crazy if we'd just sneaked loads of sugar into his regular food on a quiet day. So I figure it's a myth, but that doesn't necessary change the fact that when you give candy to a kid he's likely to go a bit crazy.

  73. Re:Mercury by CubicleView · · Score: 1

    It was a homemade Thomas the Tank Engine cake, powerful stuff.

  74. Profit over health by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No it doesn't. It threatens the profit margin of large pharmaceutical corporations that OWN the FDA. You only need thimerisol (49% mercury) as a preservative for multi-dose containers. So why not ship single dose containers? Lets see, we get rid of the rubber gloves, the needle the syringe but we can't ship single dose containers for what reason? Oh yea we don't want to cost corporations with profit margins measured in the 4-5 digit range.

     

  75. Shill? Troll? I dunno, I'm done here. by Medievalist · · Score: 1

    People believe all kinds of crazy things. Show me data to support your claim.

    I did, repeatedly. So did you - your link supports my statements. But you are so obsessional or delusional that you've apparently lost the ability to read critically.

    Thiomersal (C9H9HgNaO2S) is metabolized or degraded to ethylmercury (C2H5Hg+) and thiosalicylate.

    Inorganic mercury metabolized from ethylmercury has a half-life of at least 120 days.

    The data says mercury can be found in mammalian tissue for at least 120 days after administration of thiomersal. You have decided, in spite of the available research, to believe otherwise. OK, you've been led to water, but you don't want to drink.

    So eat all the mercury you want. Go whip the convict labor in the cinnabar mines and huff the fumes from the roasters. I certainly won't force you to stop. You are clearly deeply committed to mercury ingestion - and that's fine with me. Enjoy!

    You are also free to subscribe to Paracelsus' overly broad, mentally limiting paradigm all you want. I still won't stop you. It's a valid way of interpreting the data. I personally subscribe to a more nuanced view, that fits the data better for my purposes, but I don't see any reason to try to browbeat others into accepting my point of view as incontrovertible dogma. Which is another characteristic we apparently don't have in common.

  76. Re:The only thing this threatens is someone's wall by c6gunner · · Score: 1

    Dr. Bob? Is that you?

  77. Re:The only thing this threatens is someone's wall by Quila · · Score: 1

    The costs of making safer vaccines are in the range of pennies

    Times billions. Who do you propose pay for it?

    There was actually a pretty decent WHO report on this not long ago that applies to ALL medicine.

    WHO also says "there is no evidence of toxicity in infants, children or adults exposed to thiomersal (containing ethyl mercury) in vaccines."

    The mildly increased cost can easily be handled by a variety of options from eliminating drug patents

    What is the incentive to create the drugs anymore then?

    to making laws against these adulterants in medical equipments

    That doesn't "handle" the increased cost, it creates the increased cost. Here we are, trying to vaccinate as many kids as possible on a limited budget, and here come people like you trying to make the vaccination more expensive.

    There are multitudes of benefits that come from this kind of ban.

    There are absolutely none. The ban is just to appease people who cringe at the word "mercury" and believe fraudulent studies.

  78. Re:The only thing this threatens is someone's wall by RanceJustice · · Score: 1

    If you eliminate many of the political and economic structures put in place that do not benefit doctors or patients but only enrich equipment manufacturers and big pharma, this would not be an issue. Look at the bidding a few years back on the contract for flu vaccine nasal mist that went exclusively to Med Immune, who created a couple of contaminated batches causing delay, went with the wrong strain despite being told otherwise which led to it being less effective than it could have been, and basically were allowed to be the sole manufacturer despite tons of fuckups - of course, they built a new building and showed record profits because of the contract awarded to them. We have a system now where the answer to "We need lots of influenza vaccine now!" is "create a drawn out bidding war amongst big companies for exclusive rights to manufacture it", in some cases. End that kind of thinking to save billions.

    The WHO is making both correct and incorrect statements - things don't have to be completely black and white.

    What was the incentive for Dr. Salk to create the polio vaccine without a patent that exclusively gave himself or a corporate backer the right to manufacture said vaccine? There are many solutions to the issue of R&D funding - I favor a bounty/reward system. It would save billions per year if we paid a "bounty" when private industry developed an otherwise patentable drug or device, which would then enter the public domain. Not unlike the telecoms, there's a huge amount of public money being funneled into private industry in the forms of grants and whatnot, but the results of said development are patented and owned by the private industry themselves. The system we have now is completely corrupt and serves to enrich the few at the cost of the many; its completely unnecessary and we can do much better.

    Its so much cheaper to just let industrial runoff flow untreated into a nearby river and makes your "limited budget" go much farther, but does that make it a good idea? The whole reason that budgets are so expensive and money is so limited is due to the polices that allow the pharmaceutical industry to enrich themselves at the cost of everyone else. Arguing about the additional cost of making vaccinations without toxic adulterants is like the Republicans yelling about NASA's budget being "Government Waste" while our defense spending for 2.5 wars is completely ignored.

    You really can't see the benefits of eliminating not just mercury but a whole host of toxic substances? This is completely divorced from the issue of mercury in and of itself causing autism - I'm not saying that; I agree that it isn't accurate. Developing nations with poor restrictions have become dumping grounds for all sorts of hazardous substances because its cheaper. This ban isn't just about vaccines you understand, but also would keep it from being used in other forms for other uses as well. This is absolutely of paramount importance, forgetting vaccines. Vaccines are simply a wedge issue. I've seen patients who spent their childhood in developing nations and had exposure to heavy metals, organic and inorganic toxins way beyond the average American etc... all a factor in their chronic illness that when treated, gave them more of their life back than they'd ever thought possible. These are often people who have limited access to healthcare and greater exposure to risks of all sorts, so trying to regulate for the safe disposal of toxic materials and limiting both exposure and toxic burden can only benefit. Yes, its often more expensive to do things right than to halfass and harm them, but if you had a child with a compromised HLA-DR4 genotype that didn't allow them to process and excrete certain toxins nearly as well as someone with a different allele I think you'd feel differently.

  79. Re:The only thing this threatens is someone's wall by Quila · · Score: 1

    The WHO is making both correct and incorrect statements

    And of course you think the one about thimerosol being safe is incorrect. You can't cite the WHO as an authoritative source on the subject, and then pick and choose which WHO statements are authoritative.

    The whole reason that budgets are so expensive and money is so limited is due to the polices that allow the pharmaceutical industry to enrich themselves at the cost of everyone else.

    Whatever any other factors are, we remain with the basic fact that thimerosol is cheap, the alternatives more expensive, whether manufactured by companies or the government itself. So let's say you change our system a bit and save a billion dollars. Would you rather apply that to getting healthcare to more people or apply it to being able to afford vaccines that are now more expensive to manufacture and deliver due to a mercury ban?

    What was the incentive for Dr. Salk to create the polio vaccine without a patent that exclusively gave himself or a corporate backer the right to manufacture said vaccine?

    The incentive then was to cure the disease, and he had some funding. He also had a lot of volunteer help throughout the country and a relatively simple regulatory process. Today, the effort would cost billions, take decades, and expose Salk to numerous lawsuits.

    There's a question for you. If your procedure is under the auspices of government, who do people sue in the case of wrongdoing? Sovereign immunity.

    There are many solutions to the issue of R&D funding - I favor a bounty/reward system

    We already have a reward-result system, where we pay universities to research things. Unfortunately, they now get to patent what was developed on the taxpayers' time. I do agree that patenting needs to stop. But would you prevent companies from coming up with cures on their own?

    Developing nations with poor restrictions have become dumping grounds for all sorts of hazardous substances because its cheaper.

    And that issue is completely divorced from the issue of mercury in vaccines, since it is safe. There is no reason to prohibit something that is safe and cheap. You're trying to make life-saving ventures more expensive just to satisfy irrational fears. You're going all over the map with tangents to try to get away from this basic fact.