Slashdot Mirror
Mandatory Brake-Override Proposed For All Cars
Hugh Pickens writes "The LA Times reports that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration wants to require automakers to include a brake-throttle override system in all their cars and light trucks to help drivers regain control when a vehicle accelerates suddenly when the throttle becomes stuck or jammed. 'America's drivers should feel confident that any time they get behind the wheel they can easily maintain control of their vehicles — especially in the event of an emergency,' says Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. The move came after a fiery 2009 Lexus crash after a floor mat was improperly installed and may have trapped the accelerator pedal, causing the vehicle to race down California Highway 125 outside San Diego at more than 100 miles per hour, crashing and bursting into flames, killing an off-duty California Highway Patrol Officer and three members of his family. That crash led to a recall of 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles to fix the floor mat problem, and Toyota issued millions more recall notices to fix sticking gas pedals and other issues. Now Toyota has made a brake-override system standard, implementing it in all vehicles the company sold by the end of 2010, and most other automakers offer such a system on many of their vehicles or are adding it. Other automakers would have about two years to comply with the proposal (PDF). 'We learned as part of the comprehensive NASA and NHTSA studies of high-speed unintended acceleration that brake-override systems could help drivers avoid crashes,' says NHTSA Administrator David Strickland."
Do they do everything *EXCEPT* a space program now?
What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
I never understood why this option was so difficult for people.
Get Paid to search
You ain't never gettin off that hill, bud
I have one of those systems, it's called the 'ignition key'. I turn it to the left and the engine stops.
America needs a Driver Override. Being a troll because I have got karma to burn. Seriously though,this is more likely to be used as a backdoor to Bad driving
-- It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle
The move came after a fiery 2009 Lexus crash after a floor mat was improperly installed and may have trapped the accelerator pedal, causing the vehicle to race down California Highway 125 outside San Diego at more than 100 miles per hour, crashing and bursting into flames, killing an off-duty California Highway Patrol Officer and three members of his family.
Sounds Darwinian to me. If you don't know how to turn your car off, then frankly as a race we don't need you genes!
Blatant Advert: Android Apps!
This has been the norm for VW and Audi vehicles for at least 12 years. If you keep your foot on the brake, the engine will drop to an idle.
How would this work in manual transmission cars? if this happens in first gear in my car I don't think I can break 25mph and maybe not 20mph.....Of course I'd just put the clutch in & turn off the car
Wouldn't it be easier just to make sure that cars' throttles don't get jammed or stuck?
Depress clutch, engine disconnected. job done. all it'll do then is make noise.
isn't that why the E' Brake is installed? Or is that just for looks ?
Apparently CHP officers get paid very well. Or you could imply the other option...
Probably should have reworded: "Expensive, high-tech system mandated to overcome floor mat design flaw" just to highlight the ridiculousness...
+1 Disagree
Sure both are likely to cause damage to the vehicle but seriously. What happens if the brake override malfunctions and engages the brake at an unwanted time?
A properly functioning brake system will be able to overcome any force the engine can can produce. If you stand on both pedals, your car should go nowhere.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
As they've grown to the world's largest car company, their quality has plummeted: The worst was when they had engines that failed after just ~25,000 miles and Toyota refused to replace them. They blamed the customers instead and voided the warranty (how convenient). Right now I would no more buy a Toyota than I would buy a GM car or Yugo.
LINK - http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota.htm
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
I don't believe there has ever been a production model of car or truck where the brakes aren't FAR more powerful than the engine/transmission.
If you apply the brake firmly, you WILL stop, even if the engine is at Wide-Open Throttle.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-with-unintended-acceleration
"Flame away, I wear asbestos underwear"
The move came after a fiery 2009 Lexus crash after a floor mat was improperly installed and may have trapped the accelerator pedal, causing the vehicle to race down California Highway 125 outside San Diego at more than 100 miles per hour, crashing and bursting into flames, killing an off-duty California Highway Patrol Officer and three members of his family.
So, the moron driving the car couldn't slam the car into neutral?
Grab and yank the emergency brake and slam on the breaks?
Manual transmission: slam on brakes stall car. Even with the throttle to the metal.
Automatic: slam on brakes car stops moving even with the throttle to the floor.
Secondly, the throttle couldn't have been "stuck at full" by the floor mat unless the driver pushed it there in the first place because he was driving like an asshole in the first place.
I think that whole "accident" was just an asshole driving recklessly and blaming the car after killing people.
Of all these "car went out of control because of 'defective' throttle" problems I've seen, EVERY ONE of them could have been stopped by putting the car into neutral and slamming on the brakes.
Nope, they were all assholes in luxury cars driving like assholes.
Really. Honest question. The skills that are *necessary* to drive in the USA are minimal at best, and inadequate mostly. Even though the skill of the actual driver possible is as good as, say, Europe, the requirement to be able to actually drive keeps a lot of the less capable off the roads, and no matter how capable a driver YOU are, if there are incapable ones are on the road, they WILL reduce your ability to control your car properly.
A case in point is this legislation.
Turn off the ignition.
Disengage the engine.
Apply the BRAKES.
The "emergency brake" is misnamed, but the incapability of the average driver in the USA who is actually allowed to drive in a car ensures that when this HANDBRAKE is applied, it is done in an emergency, where the handbrake is not intended to be used. The actual brakes are supposed to be able to brake and stop the car EVEN IF the engine is running full pelt and cannot be disengaged.
Those are the brakes to use.
Not the handbrake.
Then this legislation wouldn't be needed.
Given that electronic fuel injection systems really only use a pedal sensor rather than an old-fashioned accelerator linkage moving an arm on the carb, it should be quite easy for a tap on the brake to override the accelerator inputs.
But the brake-torquing fans are going to be pissed! :D
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
This dunderhead has nothing better to do than to allocate someone else's money to solve a problem than doesn't exist
Fortunately, they seem to be accounting for certain intended accelerator/brake operation in the design. Or they'll just screw up the drag racing off a traffic light tradition. I just hope they leave it off cars with manual transmissions and clutches. If you can't figure out how to stop one of those, you deserve all that Darwin has to offer.
Have gnu, will travel.
-Put it in neutral
-Put it in park
-Pull the handbrake/emergency brake
-Pull the key/shut the car off
If the brakes in the car fail due to floormats, then a special system to allow the brakes to 'over ride' the gas could also fail for other reasons such as floor mats still just blocking the brakes (which I've never really understood anyways). I could see a new system like this actually causing more problems by making the breaking/gas more complex.
Modest doubt is called the beacon of the wise - William Shakespeare
It's called defense in depth. Make it harder for throttles to get stuck, but also make it harder for a stuck throttle to cause a collision.
The government wants cars to be unaffordable. They want to ladle so many requirements on building them that you'll need a six figure income to buy one. Sheesh.
I grew up in the 70's with a VW beetle as our family car. It didn't have anti-lock brakes, a third brake light, air conditioning, air-bags, a computer, or annoying "Door Ajar" voice. It had thin doors. Hell, it didn't even have a radiator.Those old bug engines were air-cooled. They were so light and easy to maintain, my dad overhauled one in our yard. He literally unbolted the engine from the motor mounts, lifted it up and out with his own hands, worked on it, then put it back. All without the help of pulleys, computer analysis kits, or microchips. You could drive to forever and back on a tank of gas. It was the most reliable car we ever owned.
And now, you couldn't build one in America if you wanted to, because the government would forbid it. "Inherently unsafe", they'd call it. They'd produce 3,000 pages of requirements to be filled before you could actually make one. And yet my family drove one for almost two decades, and it was safe, cheap, and reliable. So yeah, I do think that the government wants to price Americans out of the auto market sometimes.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Every car I have ever owned had this device called an emergency or parking brake that was manually operated either by hand or foot.
I have had the oportunity to use this in a situation where the brakes failed, fortunately it was not at high speed.
My take on this is know what is installed on your vehicle and know how to operate it. If you do not then you will panic and possibly die or worse kill someone else because of your ignorance.
The only workable response in that hypothetical situation would be to move the control knob into neutral and apply both brakes. The engine management will prevent the engine from blowing up. If the clutch doesn't disengage, still apply both brakes with maximum force (anything else could destroy the brakes by pad wear.)
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
... I won't be able to power brake my car?
Seriously, a lexus doesn't have enough power to over power the brakes. The brakes absorb more power than the engine can produce. No 'override' needed.
What is really going on is this. NHTSA has reduced the death rate on American highways to about the level on Germany's Autobahns. Of course Germany (and generally speaking Europe, does it by insisting on a minimal driving skill). In the US its done with technology. Heavy cars, loaded with safety features etc. Airbags that break your arms etc. Now how can they justify their existance? They have tackled the low hanging fruit...
Now, they are going to solve the non-existant problem. Or maybe re-inforce that cars have a neutral gear position....
I can help but think this is a bit excessive. I could imagine if this were a common occurrence to where one had a reasonable chance of the accelerator being stuck, but I dont imagine it is.
I only know one person in San Diego driving a Toyota where that happened. Granted, he and his family were killed, but there are lots of people killed in freak accidents.
We cant make the world totally bubble wrapped. I dont want to pay for it at least.
If your vehicle experiences unexpected acceleration ( probably due to your foot jammed on the wrong pedal )
you can either a: shove in the clutch ( if you drive a stick ), b: turn off the engine, c: shift into neutral,
or d: throw the brake throttle override switch, if you can find it because unlike the other three options
which you use instinctively every day, you've never thrown that particular switch before.
Brain damaged asshole politicians !
Wouldn't such a system make toe-n-heel impossible? While most drivers of a manual do not know how or even why to do such a maneuver, it is required in order to properly downshift a manual transmission. If you do not rev match when downshifting it not only makes for a rough ride but is also very rough on the drivetrain.
But in Europe, all cars have to have (by law) brakes that have enough stopping power to overcome the engine. The result is that hitting the brakes will slow you down despite full throttle. This will eventually lead to a stall of the engine and a complete stop. You will damage your car, but at the point you're using this lives are at stake. Does this not apply in the US?
Then again, I've only ever really driven manuals, where in such a situation (not that it ever happened to me) I can just lift the clutch and coast to the side. Can you not shift an automatic transmission from "D" to "N" when accelerating? I've never tried tbh, but I can't think of why that wouldn't work...
Also, what is wrong with turning off the engine? Turn the key so the ignition is off, and then turn it part way. This is usually enough to stop the steering lock engaging, while still not starting the engine again.
I've never heard of this being a problem in Europe, honestly. We have automatics here too, but I've yet to hear of any runaway cars. Is this a US specific problem? If so what would cause it to be so? (or have I just missed out on these events in Europe)
Also, the BBC provide a nice article on what to do if you are in a runaway car: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8498257.stm
I had an accelerator get stuck under a floor mat. It was a stick shift and I put it in neutral (while the tach pinged against the rev limiter) and coasted to the side of the road and shut off the truck. No harm done.
On an automatic, that would have been somewhat more difficult -- there's no muscle memory to pop an automatic into neutral, and if we'd been in traffic, it could have easily been a fatal screwup from a big piece of carpet. Given how most cars are drive by wire already, this seems like a good idea.
How often does this happen? (does it statistically matter?)
NO!
There are so many other things which should be recommended as mandatory.
How about mandatory bluetooth integration in ALL cars to prevent drivers from using their hands to do anything other than drive?
THAT would save more lives than are lost due to "speeding out of control".
I don't get it. If my car were flying down the highway, accellerator jammed, I turn off the engine. If I don't want to lose power braking, I shift into neutral. The engine can blow in neutral, rev-limiter might save it, I brake as usual.
So who learned to drive a car, and didn't learn to stop driving a car? Since my first highway driving lesson included being taught to confidently restart the engine at 120 kph in the event that anything fails ever. I was 16 then. And my car was worth $4'000. Perhaps I'd have been willing to crash a $90'000 car in a fiery death.
As they've grown, they've had more idiots that cannot drive cars use them.
It's called a clutch. It works great.
You should have one on your next car.
Clutch + Rev Limiter . . . . why, what do you guys have?
There is no need for this at all. The Lexus crash was a tragedy, yes, but then all of the faulty cars were recalled and now Toyota has a standard braking system installed. What problem, exactly, is NHTSA trying to fix?? Other than making more work for themselves so they can justify a budget...
This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
A lot of cars already do this, particularly if they've got drive-by-wire systems which I thought the Prius featured. But the fact is that this is not going to make a single bit of different for anyone who mashed the gas pedal in a panic thinking they're stomping on the brake.
And it's been demonstrated time and again that brakes will overpower any engine. The key, however, if being decisive when you first encounter a problem and not stupidly poking at and releasing the brakes to the point that they start overheating. And the fact is that every single car on the road, automatic and manual alike can be dropped into neutral at any time.
The problem here isn't limitations in the technology, it's inadequate driver training. People don't understand how cars work. There are certain things that should be mandatory. My state mandates a 8 hour course where they dwell on the obvious, like don't drink and drive, but don't get into the principles of how a car works. They gloss over important topics.
So instead of improving education they keep mandating more crap be stuffed in cars creating a false sense of security.
I actually support this a good deal. If anyone remembers the Jeep Cherokee Sudden acceleration issue back in the early 2000s, its a goo move. I was involved in one of those accidents (my jeep shot across my nieghborhood and ended up hitting a tree 5 houses down) and the inability to controll your acceration is a completely helpless, terrifying feeling
How many times does this happen? Yet they're going to require all cars to add new hardware to deal with it?!
A brake override is a nice idea, I wouldn't want the brakes to go uncontrolled while I was stomping on the accellerator.... but it might also be a good idea to override the throttle sometimes, too. However, we'd need something to be in charge of these overrides ... we could give it a catchy name, like 'Driver' or something...
Sorry, Toyota reliability is still top notch. My family has owned 6 of them and they have all lasted 20 years at least.
2012 Consumer Reports top 9 most reliable brands were Japanese. Scion, Lexus and Toyota were three of those 9.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/cr-recommended/best-worst-in-car-reliability/reliability-findings/reliability-findings.htm
Back in summer 2009, I flew to Virginia to attend a friend's wedding. I rented a car, a brand new Mustang (was either that or the Chevy that kind of looks like a PT Cruiser, but uglier). As I pulled onto the interstate, the car suddenly started accelerating even when I released pressure on the pedal, and I noticed the pedal wasn't moving up. My first logical idea was to check the cruise control, thinking maybe I somehow triggered it. The next thing I did was glance down at the pedal itself, where I saw that the floor mat had slid up and covered the pedal slightly, but just enough to put pressure on it. I slid the mat back, and the problem was fixed. All of this happened in a span of maybe 10-15 seconds. Moral of the story: we don't need a mandatory break-override, we just need to teach people to stay calm and rational in bad situations. This would take care of the majority of problems with cars. The other problems, which are generally mechanical in nature, probably would not be solved by a break-override anyway.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
I live right down the street in Santee, California where the 2009 Lexus crash happened...damn Toyota! Please make cars and trucks that LAST AND ACTUALLY STOPS when requested to do so instead of making them use cheaper and cheaper (and inherently use crappier and crappier parts) but charging the same high price. Poor Officer Saylor and family...my condolences. :-(
I'm not clear on how this will work. How does the system know that a floormat is holding the pedal as opposed to me mashing it to the boards? Sometimes I want to hold the throttle wide open and accelerate as quickly as possible. Turning onto a busy highway is a great example. I can just see some cheap car manufacturer trying to implement a low-cost throttle interrupter and causing pile ups when someone turns into traffic and their engine shuts down in 70mph traffic.
My car already has one, it is called the clutch. You press that and the engine can rev all it wants without the car speeding up.
I suggest we make all cars without this much needed safety device illegal.
Seriously, a few times I've used the brakes to transfer torque from the tire spinning on the ice back to the tire on dry pavement... Just enough to get off the ice patch. I suppose most new cars are all traction-computered up the wazoo but us old geezers know how to drive cars without computers.
They're taking all the fun out of driving with their regulations. First ABS that can't be switched off to make sure you can't purposely lock up the brakes. I used to slide around on the ice like that, very fun.
Now they're banishing heel-toe for performance driving.
Next these electronic stability things, although most of those can be turned off since they're manufacturer choice. Not for much longer.
If my car were flying down the highway, accellerator jammed, I turn off the engine.
Which, on many cars, locks the steering wheel.
Now that was dumb design. There are steering column locks which engage when the key is removed, but many engage when the key is merely turned to OFF. Yes, there may be an intermediate accessory position between OFF and RUN, but it's easy to overrun it in an emergency.
If you DO NOT KNOW how to stop your car should a component fail, you're driving without due care and attention. I'm not saying you *won't* hit anything, but if something major like your brakes fail or accelerator jams, then you should know what to do. Depending on the car and the damage you don't care about causing to it, this can be anything from clutch-down, to forcibly out of gear, to handbrake, to clipping kerbs deliberately, to double-de-clutching or just plain switching off the engine (seriously, if you're going to zoom at 100kph out of your control, and you've tried the obvious, fuck what you've heard about losing power-steering - you'll still HAVE steering but in the worse case of steering lock coming on, it's a damn sight better to brake in a straight line with no engine fighting you than careening about the place at speed trying to weave in and out of crap that doesn't know what's happened to you).
If you DO NOT KNOW what to do: Find out. Before you use the car again. Hell, find a "test track" like an empty car park late at night and try it out (GENTLY!) if you want. Be shocked by how ineffective a handbrake can be, and how much it can affect your steering on some cars. See how long it takes a non-powered car to start versus a powered one.
But if you don't do this, really, you're driving a car that you don't know how to drive. Any idiot can press the throttle in a strange car without thinking. But you should KNOW how the car works from a driver's perspective to the point of knowing what to do in an emergency FIRST. For 99% of cars, this isn't a problem - they are pretty much the same.
But if you notice that you're in an auto and you've never driven an auto before - look up what to do with it. If you're in a start/stop electric crap, LOOK UP WHAT TO DO WITH IT. Some of those cars have literally computer-like-resets - hold the button down for 5. During those 5 seconds (less than the recommended 2-second gap between you and the car in front), you're going to need to do something else too. Find out what will work, whether in theory or practice.
I find it quite horrendous that more people "know" you should wait for your car to sink to the bottom of the river and the pressure to equalise before getting out of it (WRONG! Get out of there before it dips below the waterline and you won't have any problems! Once the water pressure is on it, that door won't open until you're already in danger of drowning) than know how to bring an out-of-control car to a stop.
LEARN YOUR CAR. It's doing everything it can to save you all the time, and most of its cost is from safety featurees, and you can't be bothered to learn how to stop it in an emergency?
The real reason for the "feature" is to be able to disable the accelerator/car by sending it a special code as it passes over a checkpoint.
Stop high speed chases.
Prevent people from passing a checkpoint.
Lock down a city or community.
There are lots of good and evil reasons for this.
Couldn't they just ban floor mats instead or something?
You should buy a car with one of those fancy synchronized transmissions, that way heel/toe won't be "required" to downshift.
It was the fat American foot of the driver. Cars are not appliances. They are 2-ton chunks of metal & plastic flying around at 70 mph with idiots behind the wheel. Be prepared or you can die. /PSA
What about if you decide to track your car and do some left-foot braking? Can this override be disabled?
Toyota has been one of the most consistent and reliable vehicle manufactures for several decades now.
The "accelerator" problem was a hatchet job spawned by the plummeting economy and America's need to revive it's own vehicle industry. Queue fake outrage and manufactured controversy about "safety" based on one or perhaps two "accelerator" incidents.
TLDR; You were lied to and conned into believing what the government needed you to believe.
Sorry, Toyota reliability is still top notch. My family has owned 6 of them and they have all lasted 20 years at least.
Of course the twenty-year-old models were high quality. The problem is with the NEW cars.
* oil sludge in 3L V6
* frame breaking in half from rust on pickups
* bad user interface on keyless ignition switch if not defective drive-by-wire
etc...
1) Brakes SHOULD override throttle. Worn out brakes might not do it without cutting the gas, though... and if somebody panics and jams their feet on gas and brake simultaneously, it'd be really nice if their stopping distance wasn't increased because of the throttle.
2) There once was a really nifty new pedal design - twist for throttle, press for brake. One pedal, two functions. Apparently after a bit of adjustment it drastically improved braking reaction time.
Operating brake and throttle at the same time are mandatory for doing a heel-toe maneuver... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel-and-toe)
New webcomic updated on Sundays: HERE
OR! we *could* just teach people how to drive?
The greatest right given is the right to be wrong...
Unnecessary. In my SAAB the throttle jammed the other day - I had unwittingly kicked the floor mat off the peg and the throttle caught on the mat. I was behind another vehicle, so what did I do? Depressed the clutch, shifted into neutral and while the rev limiter was bouncing off the 6500rpm rev limiter, I kicked the throttle down repeatedly until it came loose, while maintaining control of my vehicle and keeping my left foot off the brake. I then pulled into a parking lot and fixed the mat and made sure it was in place on the pegs which normally keep it from sliding out of position. I was concerned about the engine (and turbocharger to some extent, although there was no load on the engine) after being at redline for a few seconds. So I detoured and drove around a bit in high gear at low RPM to keep oil and coolant circulating to cool things down a bit.
It was a total non-event, really. If they do require that brake-throttle override I'd want it disabled because there are times I do want throttle and brake at the same time.
I also keep traction control off in that car most of the time (I do wish I could keep it disabled by default), and on one of my other cars I actually disable ABS (I disconnect the EBCU entirely) in icy/snowy weather because ironically it adversely affects braking by being overly-sensitive (probably due to 335mm/13.1" wide tires - and no they are not slicks), greatly extending stopping distances, even when braking gently.
Besides, NO mass-produced car from the factory has enough torque to overcome its brakes. If you mash down on the brakes, the car WILL slow down and come to a stop. The problem is idiots don't apply the brakes - they miss the pedal and apply the throttle.
What is the correct solution? Get rid of the current driving licensing system since it is PURELY a revenue generator. Implement proper driver training, including safety and performance driving courses, an extended course where the instructor distracts you (maybe by setting off a small firecracker in the car, or popping a balloon, etc) and also several courses instructing you on how to deal with blowouts (on the highway you just keep driving - don't let off the throttle entirely, DO NOT BRAKE but gently back off the throttle and gradually coast down), how to steer properly (NOT hand-over-hand but sort of shuffle your hand position as you turn the wheel), how to take turns properly (don't go wide and turn sharply - follow the apex of a turn and by god don't slow down to 20mph on an on-ramp where there is no speed limit because the idea is for you to freely accelerate to merge with traffic, even overtaking speed if required), and of course, eliminate the fucking drive-around-the-block-then-parallel-park-on-a-deserted-street driving test. Make the driving test include driving through TWO major cities during rush hour, including navigating AT LEAST one roundabout properly, exercising all yields and merges properly, both obeying the law and following courtesy properly, and parallel park between two cars without customizing the bumpers on the other cars (I HATE parking on Boston streets because I find my bumpers customized by people who "feel" their way into a parking space).
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
This is B.S. smeared across the entire face of the American population because the US.gov doesn't have the balls, courage and conviction to ' ban' dangerous, toxic and lethal products. Lexus et.al. and the mfgrs join the ranks of cigarette makers et.al. lobbying defective products-by-statute that legally exonerates and transfers 'responsibility' on their customers.
Tried to make an acronym, but failed. My thought based upon the NASA study is, if failures could not be traced to the vehicle systems then the failure must be in the fleshy water bag behind the wheel. Given that, better training is in order.
For instance, I remember when I was about 10 my Dad installed a cruise control on our old beater station wagon. One day the chain connecting the actuator to the throttle somehow became stuck. ISTR that we we actually continuing to accelerate, as well, but that could just be a memory warped by age. In any case, my father performed a really revolutionary, non-computerized, non government-mandated action to mitigate this: he turned the ignition off. Sure, the power steering then became difficult to work, but we were able to coast off the highway and come to a stop by otherwise normal means.
I have kept that with me my entire life, and it's come in useful at least once for me: a stuck A/C open-throttle over-ride switch which prevented the throttle from returning to idle position, and another time which involved an accident and the memory is definitely warped by the situation.
Now, sudden accelerations are another point altogether, but the infrequency of those I feel do not merit a system which can not only fail and result in unintended consequences, but lend to the development of a false sense of security and a more hands-off approach to a very critical and practically dangerous activity.
All VW, Audis, Seat, Skoda, and probably their other brands that employ a Drive By Wire throttle already have this. There is a delay by a few seconds so it's not immediate.The delay allows one to still execute most performance maneuvers that require both throttle and brake at the same time. I have heel-toed on all inclines without a problem in my R32.
Personally I find it stupid that one can't go from Drive to Neutral in some cars with an automatic.
Next thing you know they'll be wiring into the car navigation and remote assistance systems so law enforcement can always pull you over, even if you don't want to!
Perhaps we should require a new transmission setting in all cars. When the transmission is in this new setting the engine would be free to do whatever it wanted but it would be disconnected from the remainder of the drivetrain and the brakes would only have to work against the inertia of the vehicle.
I propose we call the new setting/gear ARV for "Anti-Runaway Vehicle".
Clearly the existing Neutral settings are not working.
BTW: VW implemented what the article suggests years ago. In my Golf if I have the throttle at any setting above idle and step on the brake for more than about 2 seconds the computer disconnects the throttle and brings the engine to idle.
Or you know... just put the transmission in Neutral. I was taught this in drivers ed decades ago.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
just keep it out of the manual, and nobody who likes driving will care anyway
on manual a press of the clutch will do the same thing without all the sophisticated software.
This has been tested by many of the car magazines. A Toyota Corolla's brakes are stronger than the engine and will stop the car from 50mph while under full throttle.
Popular Mechanics tested it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOMYjiCiTYg
Car and Driver tested it and the Corolla stopped only 16 feet longer than with no throttle. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-with-unintended-acceleration
Maybe they should teach you what to do in drivers ed, like when I was young. I have been in several cars that have had throttle issues: Simply turn off the engine and apply the brakes.
How about the simple solution to allow the driver to shut down the engine on demand?
I have a 2007 Toyota Avalon (I bought it 3 months old, I will NOT buy a new non-domestic automobile) that was recalled. So the REAL problem is I have to hold the START button down for about 5 seconds before the engine stops. I don't think that that is in the manual. Oh, and the gear shift is not a direct linkage, and the accelerator pedal is not a direct linkage.
Their philosophy to not let you shut it down (so I've read):
You'll lose power steering: you don't need power steering at 120mph, only below 20mph.
You'll lose power brakes: you're not making vacuum at full throttle, and you'll have 3-5 presses with power after the engine is shut off anyway.
Any other car/truck engine that I've owned can be immediately shut down. Who made up these new rules?
Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein
Maybe Amerikin Publick Skools should include an explanation of the middle letter of the PRNDL acronym found in all their cars...
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Yeah seriously, synchromesh gearboxes pretty much removed the requirement for heel-and-toe, and that was what, from the 50's onwards?
It can still be useful when downshifting during racing (which is why some sports cars have the pedals really close together, to make this easier) but you should not need to do this in the course of normal driving.
There isn't a car made that cannot be stopped using just the brakes with the throttle wide open and the transmission in gear. This is just a rehash of the same nonsense that Audi had to deal with about 20 years ago. This is part of our culture where, no matter what we do, someone else is to blame.
If the accelerator is stuck in the WFO position, then shift to neutral or, in a manual transmission car, push the clutch in. Problem solved -- no need for fancy, expensive, potentially failure-prone override systems. You already *HAVE* an override system. Use it!
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
One can wish :(
Synchromesh gearboxes removed the requirement to double clutch, they also made it possible to downshift without rev matching, however it is still rough on the drivetrain to send such a large impulse through the system.
Great, so now we'll have a fix for a problem that has caused what, one accident?
Meanwhile, people are still mistaking the gas pedal for the brake all the time.
This "fix" doesn't do anything for the real problem.
Um, it seems like most people don't realize that virtually everthing in a modern car is computer-controlled. Which means implementing this feature is a simple software adjustment. Heck, I can even illustrate it with one line of code:
if accel_level > 0.2 and brake_level > 0.2: accel_level = 0
Okay I'm sure it's not quite so easy in the car's programming, but what I am sure of is that it's not expensive... you can already get it standard in a $12000 Nissan for fuck's sake. From TFA it looks like that the cheapest Toyotas have it as well.
I never post anymore but there is such massive ignorance on this thread I just couldn't help it. Anybody bitching about this being an expensive government imposition either doesn't know what they are talking about or is just pushing their own political agenda. (Or both.)
And in a few years, they will require an override for the break-override just in case the break-override fails and tries to force the car to stop.
Seriously... There are any number of options for stopping a car that has had an issue supposedly addressed by this expensive, new system. Turn the car off (turn the key- not all they way as that will lock the steering or press {probably hold} the big START button); put it in neutral; pull or step on the parking break, AKA the emergency break. Plowing through a school yard or farmers' market works, too, but is ill-advised; people just don't like all the death and destruction unless it's on TV.
Maybe we'll eliminate all deaths from auto accidents by including a mic in the car so that a bunch of airbags (inside and out- gotta protect the pedestrians and pets) deploy when someone screams, "F**CK," really loud. [I use the F-word simply because of the whole 'first you say it, then you do it' issue and I'd rather f**ck than s**t, especially if I'm about to die.]
I hope this comment is well received... I could have moderated instead!
Persecutors will be violated!
I lost control of my car due to icy conditions once. I was not going fast, thankfully, but I had about 10 seconds before I was going to slide right down a hill into four lane traffic. When my brakes locked up, I remembered what my father taught me, and steered the car into the curb. Why? At slow speeds, it's better to risk damaging your front end than damaging yourself. So I steered my not-answering-brakes car into the curb on the left side of the road, leaving me at a 45 degree angle. When the light turned green, I put it in reverse, gunned it and fortunately grabbed enough traction to escape the curb, and slipped right down onto the street. Thankfully, my car suffered no damage besides a crack on the front bumper.
It isn't just a matter of being an experienced driver, it's a matter of being a properly taught one. I never took a driver's ed class, but my parents were always careful to explain whenever they did something unusual in the car to me from a young age. Probably the most vital lesson I learned from my dad? "Even if they're not paying attention, they really don't want to hit you either."
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
What could be easier?
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
It's called a clutch... lets just ban automatics.
Sychros take far more damage downshifting then up (they are designed to slow down the input shaft). Heel/toe is still a very good idea.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Take reliability statistics with a pinch of salt...
Different brands and types of cars are bought by different types of people... For instance the type of people who buy typical "boy racer" cars are also more likely to drive in an aggressive manner that puts more stress on the components of the car, while those who buy expensive luxury cars are more likely to drive sedately and follow the recommended maintenance schedules. Someone who buys an expensive cars is likely to take care of it, while someone who buys a cheap car is more likely to treat it with contempt...
Also someone who buys a more expensive car is likely to be picky, and demand to have minor faults fixed while drivers of cheaper cars will often put up with minor faults rather than go to the expense of having them fixed. Similarly an expensive car will have more features, and thus more that could go wrong even tho most of the features are not critical to the operation of the car.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
My understanding is that moving the shifter into neutral had no effect on the transmission because the computer was screwed up. The floor mat thing was a red herring.
On a Lexus, slamming on the brakes is not enough to overcome the engine.
Sorry, you're the asshole.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong and wrong.
So STFU moron and learn something about cars.
We have driven 2011 Toyota Camry for over 20 years and have never had a problem before this one purchased only a few months ago. When my wife tries to drive the car, she cannot see over her shoulder for the blind spot. The bar between the two windows and the head rest are blocking her view. I contacted the Toyota service department who had no suggestions for the problem nor had they received any other complaints. All I know is that she is very much afraid to drive the car because of the dangerous situation. We need to know what can be done about it. Please get this problem solved. This is the first time we have ever had any complaints about the Camry. Hope to hear from you very soon. Thank you.
This is not a problem. This is an example of a moron being given the ability to complain...when clearly it wasn't even worth teaching him how to speak.
This is not the case. Unless you have a car designed by B. S. Johnson.
I pay more money for cars that offer sudden acceleration. Unintended acceleration, on the other hand...
How about just put it in Neutral?
Well, just like the reason that many of these "unintended acceleration" vehicles have keyless ignition controls,
they are also predominantly equipped with automatic transmissions where the gearshifter lever is not a mechanical linkage to the tranmission itself, but rather it's just an electrical switch whose position is read my the onboard computer, which the computer itself actually sends electric current to the servos & solenoid controlled valves inside the transmission which do the actual moving of the mechanical bits.
So... in essence, all the controls that the driver has at his disposal are only "polite requests" to the computer for the computer to actually control the auto's mechanical hardware... in other words a "fly-by-wire" system, prone to catastrophic loss of control due to system bugs or malfunctions.
In situations when the computer control system freaks out and the driver hits the "pretending to be an ignition switch" or "pretending to be a gearshift lever" the computer is basically saying "I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that.... La la la la la... I can't hear you... wow man, those electronic mushrooms are.... oooooh the colors smell so loud!"
Just think, if this was always implemented, there would have been no way for the DeLorean to get up to 88 miles per hour in the mall parking lot.
They need to stop blocking innovation.
Michels noted that brake override is not completely fail-safe because there are times when a driver needs to use both the brake and the throttle.
"It's important to note that if the foot is first on the brake and the accelerator is then applied, the engine will accelerate. This is, of course, to permit drivers to hold a car on a steep hill using both feet," Michels said.
But if the accelerator is applied first and the brake is then depressed, the override will kick in.
Though if you're driving standard, it's second nature to just engage the clutch when braking hard, so it's less of an issue anyways.
(the plastic hooks) kept the mat from riding up under the throttle and hijacking the cruise control function on my yota. Drove an Avalon with 2 stacked floor mats which jammed the accelerator at the last point of push. Pull the top mat back to turn off the "if it works let me at it" death machine.
Toyota got it right. Everybody needs to stop improving their stuff that already works. Now the govt is gonna fix it. Shit.
How am I supposed to blip the throttle for a downshift under braking if applying the brakes automatically cuts out the accelerator? These things are important! My lap times^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h grocery runs might be seconds slower!
(Off topic - why can't I apply a strike-through tag? Slashdot has been going down hill ever since the day Taco started it.)
DAMNIT, Stop trying to "make cars better" when the issue is the idiots behind the wheel!
Driving is a privilege not a right. Learn to drive properly and pay attention or don't drive, that is how simple this is.
Anti lock breaks, Auto lane control, having to step on the break before putting a vehicle into drive or reverse are all due to IDIOTS screwing up.
Who has arguably the best rally drivers in the world? Finland! Why? Because their requirements for getting a drivers license include things like time on a skid pad and actual car control lessons rather than just some high school course with your friends.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Rally_Championship_Drivers%27_champions#By_nationality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_licence_in_Finland
Please, make the idiots pay for more expensive car control crap, and not those of us who actually want to drive.
Why not just get rid of these shitty drive-by-wire systems and go back to using real mechanical controls?
Sure, cables and hydraulic lines fail all the time, but usually only because of poor maintenance and/or poor driving (especially with manual transmissions), but drive-by-wire systems employ far more complicated mechanisms instead of those, which, despite being less prone to catastrophic failure from idiotic driver errors due to their sanitised input, still fail just as often, and compared with their 'old-skool' equivalents, are much more of a pain in the arse to fix, and that's not to mention the potentially shoddy code controlling them, which could have fuck knows how many unknown bugs that won't be discovered until somebody hits one, loses control of their car, crashes and dies (regardless of how many manual overrides there are, there will always be shit drivers that panic and forget to use them, where in a car with proper controls, their instinctive panic reactions would probably bring the car safely to a halt).
Aids that can be combined with real controls are fine, as most of them are easy to implement in a way that allows them to fail gracefully without sending the car out of control.
Power steering? Fine, I can cope with slightly heavier steering if it fails.
ABS? Fine, as in most conditions, only the shittiest of shitty drivers are ever going to lock their brakes anyway, and most people wouldn't even notice if it failed if it wasn't for the warning light on the dashboard.
But brake and throttle pedals that aren't even physically connected to the brakes or the throttle and without a correctly functioning ECU, have absolutely no effect on the operation of the brakes or the throttle? Yeah... fuck off with that.
I'll concede the point, and the point jgordon made in follow-up. However, I have to wonder what the hell you two are doing that you're tearing up synchros and whatever damage jgordon maintains occurs when heel/toe is not used. I've driven manual transmissions since I learned to drive several decades ago. I've just about always had a manual tranny car in the garage, and have driven individual vehicles well past the 100K mile mark. I've burned up clutches and throwout bearings, but not once have I ever been required to replace or otherwise crack open a manual tranny. In fact, I'm thinking back to my stint as an ASE-certified mechanic and honestly trying to recall anyone in any shop I worked at replacing a manual transmission (for vehicles that weren't raced), and I come up empty. (Granted, never worked a transmission shop, but myself and coworkers replaced plenty of clutches and autos.)
My long-winded point is, if a manual tranny can typically last the life of the car despite the abuse of the unwashed, how is heel/toe "required" or even a good idea for day-to-day use if the owner won't notice any difference in longevity?
Only us lazy Americans have few manuals left. Many other countries still prefer them.
The brakes are not more powerful than the engine. Firstly, I work in automotive. The design specification on most modern braking systems is below what is required for a worst case stop. Secondly, in an emergency situation, full power assist may not be present. You would have to be superman to apply full brakes without power assist. Parking brakes do not help either. On most cars, it is trivial to demonstrate driving out of the driveway with the parking brake on.
Lastly, I have been in a car with a runaway engine. THE BRAKES WERE NOT CAPABLE OF STOPPING THE ENGINE. Putting the car in neutral, and turning off the engine both worked. Getting caught in a snow bank helps too. :-)
-1 troll
Well well. Looks like Toyota has fanboys just like the Applebots or Googlefans. I do not comprehend people who put their love in a company..... you can't change facts. Toyota was SUED in a class-action lawsuit by several states and the U.S. government for selling engines that DIED prematurely. I apologize if that hurts your love for an inanimate object, but the fact is: Toyota built bad engines & then screwed the customers by voiding the warranties. If Microsoft did something like that you would be all over them for making shit products that died after only 1-2 years.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
Because if I was the government, I'd love to add that particular requirement to the specifications. Makes stopping people really easy.
who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
In a stick shift that's probably what drivers would naturally do. In an automatic, it's not necessarily that easy.
I've practiced this. So should anybody who plans to try it in an emergency.
In my 98 Toyota Sienna, it works great, although it's easy to shift pass Neutral and go to Reverse.
In our '06 Prius, at moderate/high speeds the car simply won't let you shift from D to N, and I really doubt the computer would pay any attention at all if the driver were to try holding the power button down. But I'll try that out when I get a chance.
It's called an Ignition Switch. Car won't stop accelerating? Turn it OFF.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
No it isn't, don't be bloody stupid. The damned things are engineered to do it. This is the equivalent of arguing that you should never use your brakes and instead just roll to a halt. Who the hell manages to dump enough energy down a driveshaft to damage a transmission in this day and age?
[FUCK BETA]
...I really wish these morons would do their homework instead of doubling down on the Toyota UA fiasco, which turned out to be mostly smoke and very little fire. Same with the Audi 5000 in the 80s, there was no problem but that didn't stop people from turning it into a crisis. I'm not saying it never happens--happened to me in a '72 Suburban, aftermarket cruise control was the culprit--but it's not enough of a problem to warrant yet another regulation. But you have to read beyond the headlines to figure that out, apparently that's too hard for our regulators.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
You rev match by releasing the brake, pushing in the clutch, revving while shifting, releasing the clutch, and then reapplying the brake. Yes, you lose braking for a few seconds, and consequently lose the smoothness that a professional driver should have while decelerating, but it's not like it's making you clutch the engine up to speed.
Oh, and very "rough on the drivetrain"? The clutch is the only part seeing a problem, and that's a wear part anyway. Clutch manufacters of the world love lazy drivers! Unless they drop the clutch hard and chirp the rear wheels, in which case they're a bloody idiot, but it's still probably less torque than WOT in a low gear, and the drivetrain's built for that. I'm not saying it's good practice, but it's not as big a deal as you're making it.
-1 troll
Well well. Looks like Toyota has fanboys just like the Applebots or Googlefans.
You're not really this ignorant, are you? You're just pretending to misunderstand why your posts get down-modded.
you can't change facts. Toyota was SUED in a class-action lawsuit by several states and the U.S. government for selling engines that DIED prematurely.
So then where's the proof? You made an inflammatory accusation, and then failed to back it up with a citation (it's like listening to glenn beck). Oh, I know you provided a link, but I clicked it, and nothing that you claimed was even mentioned in it. Perhaps you could point out the direct link instead of making us hunt it down? Oh wait, if you could have done that, surely you would have the first time, therefore you are lying.
the fact is: Toyota built bad engines & then screwed the customers by voiding the warranties.
The fact is: your link showed nothing of the sort.
The Consumer Reports survey covers new cars.
If you have OnStar, they will be able to initiate remote shutdown and break initiation! Oh wait, they can already do that.
hmm.
I'd worry about the soccer mom (or any other driver for that matter) being distracted, I would not worry about their reactions in an emergency. Separating out these driver as being unable to respond to a struck throttle is pretty much unfair.
This is not saying a driver (elderly, 16 y rold, drunken, or otherwise) that should not be driving anyway, would be capable of knowing what to do when a throttle sticks, but there are a lot of situations where an incapable driver could kill themselves.
Just don't slam soccer moms for being incompetent, slam them for the potential to be distracted like a lot of other drivers.
just make a throttle that doesn't become stuck or jammed?
Not sure what this says about the "Highway Patrol Officer"'s abilities as a driver. If he couldn't manage either of those then this new system won't save him.
I have read elsewhere that the retired CHP officer's car (a Lexus) was actually determined to have an improperly installed floormat. It still begs the question of why he didn't put the car in neutral (an option even with automatic transmission). Overall, the situation suggests he may not have been thinking clearly.
The media's periodic focus on unintended accelleration always focuses on the cars, when rational observers almost always conclude the failing part of the system was the driver. Car magazines have done these articles debunking, explaining, etc a number of times with these cycles. The general public doesn't care, doesn't want to learn, and wants it to be some else's fault, preferably someone with deep pockets. Media serves up exactly that. :-(
This disable heel-toe downshift for those who like to do this on their manual-transmission cars... Think of the racers!
There is no "park" for cars with manual gearbox
And there is no key for the drive-by-wire cars that are exhibiting runaway acceleration.
The ignition switch is a pushbutton.
These sudden acceleration incidents - they only seem to happen in the USA. You never hear about this happening in other countries.
Is this because its actually driver error? And the particular type of driver error is pressing the wrong pedal and that type of error only tends to happen for people driving automatic cars rather than manual (stick shift) cars.
Only in America.
Wrong, synchros mean you don't have to double-clutch, but you still need to rev match (the heel part of heel-and-toe, or you can do the similar but slower sidestep maneuver) if you don't want a shock of engine braking when you downshift. That said it's not a technique that's really needed on the street. In racing it's used to downshift without transferring weight forward.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
If your car is running at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) in neutral you aren't producing the vacuum necessary to power the brake system. Even if the rev limiter pulls you back from WOT, you still won't have that much vac pressure. If you slam on the brakes after popping into neutral (a perfectly normal reaction), the ABS will bleed off your reserve vacuum pretty much instantly and it's going to take you a LOOONNNGGG time to slow down the car. (Power brakes simply are NOT designed to be operated unboosted... even standing on the brakes isn't going to help much.)
That dude hasn't said one smart thing since he's taken office.
I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
Cars already have a "break override system" - it's called the gear shifter. If the vehicle begins racing out of control, simply moving the shift to the "N" position cuts the engine off from the transmission, which will result in the vehicle coasting to a stop (unless it hits something first). On some vehicles, this can also be achieved by pushing in the clutch.
No need for that, any EFI vehicle at the very least can be stopped with existing EMP devices. With enough disruptive power anything but an MFI diesel can be stopped.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Well that's annoying. The brake/torque launch is great for getting a car off the line in a hurry. Details here: http://www.modernracer.com/tips/dragracinglaunchtechniques.html
They are not engineered to handle that kind of constant abuse. Downshifting without rev matching can be extremely taxing on the drivetrain, particularly if you are moving from an engine speed of 2000 RPM up to 6000RPM.
Are laws against drunk driving questionable as well?
Actually, at this point - YES. And this is coming from somebody who gets more alcohol from using mouthwash after brushing than actually drinking the stuff.
I've read the news and statistics for quite some time, and as a result have the following problems/questions: .08? At this low of a level, the accident rate/damage isn't significantly impacted. As you mentioned, texting and cell phone use are actually worse. Other things that degrade driving that much include: Not enough sleep, depressed, angry, sick, kids in the car, legal medicines properly used, etc... The vast majority of DUIs causing serious harm/damage are .12 and up. .16, double the current limit, seems to be a spot where the rate really jumps.
1. Why
2. Why are we arresting people for 'constructive DUI' when they're 'sleeping it off' in their cars with the keys in their pocket, with a dead cold engine? This only encourages DUI in my mind, as their risk of being caught driving(~15-30 minutes of risk) vs sleeping it off (8 hours of risk).
Don't get me wrong, I actually support DUI laws, but I want them sensible, just like I want any 'distracted driving' laws to be sensible.
I don't read AC A human right
Turning your car OFF? I drove a second-hand RX7 for a while, and its throttle assembly occasionally would get stuck wide open. First time this happened, I just flipped the key off and drifted into the breakdown lane. Then I got the can of WD-40 out of the trunk and sprayed down the throttle assembly. Problem solved. My experience with this is why I'm pretty sure that most of the people who complain about it are using it as an excuse for something else. Or user error. I can't believe out of all those people, not one of them would have the instinct to turn the car off. It was literally the first thing that jumped into my head when I realized the throttle was stuck.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
We're talking America here. That means you can have NASCAR bootleggers or POSSIBLY IndyCar drivers.
But not Michael Waltrip. He's the worst driver in Nascar.
At first when I heard about the Toyota freak accident I could not understand why it could happen.
My 12 Year old SKODA TDI has the following defenses:
- A not to strong engine, so the brake can overpower the engine.
- A normal ‘ignition’ key. The key can be turned all the way back without engaging the steering lock, as long the key is not removed.
- A Clutch pedal (And a rev limiter)
- A gear lever where I can pull it out of gear without using the clutch, if it is not accelerating too much.
- Brake-Override of throttle (software feature).
Toyota have removed all the above defenses, since it has a automatic transmission, and replaced the ignition key with a start/stop button that behaved different when the car I moving.
How many knows that you have to press the start/stop button for 10 secs when the car is rolling! this is insane.
The best would be to replace the start/stop button, with a tree position switch.
Turning the car off or shifting to neutral might work for somebody who can think and does not panic.
This is a no brainer of a regulation for drivers without brains; of which we have too many and have no political will to resolve. Besides, sudden acceleration will instinctively be responded to quickest by applying the breaks even by somebody smart enough to figure out the alternatives.
This is an American problem because Americans are idiots.
Mother Government will require all cars to be driverless soon. And that's fine. No more car insurance.
I took a driving safety course once, and part of it was standing on the brakes at 40 km/hr. Some of us took one try slamming on the brakes full-force and were done. Others for some reason wouldn't. For many it took a couple/few tries before the instructor could get them to actually slam on the brakes with all their strength.
For one woman it took seven tries, with the instructor riding with her, yelling and pushing on her leg. It wasn't a physical issue sinnce she was easily strong enough. She was just too timid to stand on the brakes.
I have had floormats and accelerators stick. It happens. Just unstick the fucking thing! Jesus, do we have to have NASA come up with a fucking solution to everything? What ever happened to the "Space Agency"? What does this have to do with Space?
Has nobody else had the thought, that these unintended accelerations are "POSSIBLY" blackmail attempts by a highly organized, well funded criminal organisation? You pay us "X" dollars or else more people will keep dying in your cars... I read an article that some researchers were able to pretty much completely subvert the electronic systems of some cars by reverse engineering... Now I know that "research" != real life... but there are some VERY talented people out there, that may consider doing something like that for a great deal of money. Toyota would be very interested in preventing anyone from hearing their cars are "hackable" although we all know (well, we all Slashdotters) that EVERY modern vehicle is vulnerable to reverse-engineering and electronic attacks, theoretically. Or is that going too far? There are no cars without wireless receivers/transmitters. There are no vehicles without computers. Therefore they could "in theory" be hacked or modified to act in unintended ways? (Unintended by their owners anyways...) Hacking is not a new thing. Remember back in the day, banks left dial-in access to their computers OPEN... War dialing, hells yeah. Free money bitches!
I'm not opposed to safety features in general; air bags and seat belts are a GOOD thing. I am thinking, we already should have safety mechanisms that accomplish this in place; the NEUTRAL gear. If a person can't shift to NEUTRAL under acceleration, that is a software or design problem on the machine, which should be fixed(!), but we shouldn't need more government legislation! Have they not already legislated that a device must perform it's intended purpose, or some such? Is it not self-evident that if Toyota kills all of their customers by building poorly designed machines, that their customers wouldn't be able to pay for those, because their DEAD?
Toyota in particular has spent the entire life of their company building SAFE, reliable cars. This flies in the face of that, which makes me think it may be sabotage/blackmail. Of course there is the old saying about not attributing to malice what could be explained by simple stupidity...
Maybe in the future it will be against the law to connect critical safety systems to a network-enabled device, to prevent hacking attempts/DOS, etc. Kind of like on the Battlestar Galactica. Computers are fine, and in fact they are great! But when someone takes control over your CAR with a zero-day flash hack, and kills people with it.. that is kind of a pain in the ass.. And why does it have to be network enabled? Some new feature? I'm sorry I just don't buy it. Not everything has to be part of the internets, does it? Cars worked alright, when they were powered by manual linkages, and had no network features, didn't they?
What I don't understand about many of those runaway crashes, is why no one tried to downshift the gear to let the engine braking slow down the car. Even in automatic cars, you can select 1,2,3 or at very least the "lower" gear, which is usually 2 positions below the normal. Sure, this can damage the engine, but better be safe than..
Not entirely true on 'overall gas mileage'. I've been seeing more and more cars with 6 speed automatics that are rating for better gas mileage than their manual counterparts. It's especially true for hybrids.
I don't read AC A human right
"they can easily maintain control of their vehicles..."
The only way I maintain control over my vehicle is when I don't have some mechanism in the car taking control away from me, like Anti-lock breaks (hate them), Driver assisted stearing (hate that), Accelleration Govornors (hate them).
I can find plenty of times where I would be unable to stop in time because of anti-lock breaks. I know my car and know the point where it will slide, and I can make a controled stop manually in a shorter distance and more safely than a anti-lock break system can, and in all weather conditions.
Driver assisted stearing adjust the amount of tension you have to put into the stearing wheel. So you get use to it at a specific tension, then it kicks in and the next thing you know is you are spinning out of control.
I can think of plenty of situations where a acceleration/speed govornor puts people in danger. Speeding to get away from a tornado, or a 18 wheeler that is about to run into the back of you because the driver fell asleep, or a collision from a cross street or train track about to happen because you did not see them or vice versa. Can you imagine your car saying "no, I won't let you accelerate to that speed". Scary as hell.
Once again our government wasting our money on studies and regulations that only work if your car goes out of control. How about if they want to stop accidents then force mandatory regulations that require automatic braking systems in cars to prevent major pileups on interstates due to fog or smoke. This year alone there have been 4-5 major pileups in the fog and smoke killing over 50 how come they don't GIVE A DAMN about those issues, only ones that regulate runaway cars. How often is there an issue that causes a runaway vehicle. Once again our government DON'T CARE GIVE A DAMN ABOUT OUR SAFETY.
And if you allow this, they are right.
Both feet down.
If that's too hard to learn you shouldn't be allowed to operate a tricycle much less a god damned car.
It's called "neutral".
Google's already working on that, to some success.
Hey European, The NHTSA regulates cars and trucks in the US, where 95% plus have automatic transmissions.
having said that, David Strickland (NHTSA head) is not an engineer, he is an Harvard educated attorney with a BA in communications. My guess is that he does not appreciate that adding even more overrides to a complex system increases the likelihood that something else will go wrong.
Funny, I've driven a few cars with fucked up 2nd gear synchros. In my experience you often have bad synchros after about 100K miles.
The main reason to heal and toe is to avoid upsetting the cars balance.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Yes it did. I fact, a run away acceleration had happened to the same vehicle with a different driver.
Panic is an ugly thing. Even police officers can panic, especially in an unfamiliar car, with your family, and experiencing run away acceleration.
I would guess he kept looking for a button or key. IN a panic people revert to familiar responses, and his would have been to shut the key off.
If you step on the brake, that alone should stop acceleration signal from the pedal. Seems like the easist most reliable way to prevent these things.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Lastly, I have been in a car with a runaway engine. THE BRAKES WERE NOT CAPABLE OF STOPPING THE ENGINE. Putting the car in neutral, and turning off the engine both worked. Getting caught in a snow bank helps too.
Were you on ice at the time? I can easily see a stuck throttle being a bitch to stop on ice since you really won't be able to pump the brakes effectively and the ABS is probably useless working against wheel slippage and WOT. If you weren't on ice I'd say it was either time to bleed your brake lines or buy a new car. What death trap wouldn't have more stopping power than acceleration? I've been in a car with bad brakes and it was scary as hell. How would you not notice the brakes were so weak? If you can't stop faster than you can accelerate then something is very, very wrong.
. . . is that it's perfectly possible, and even likely, that someone you think is "stupid" is still smart enough to live long enough to procreate *before* they kill themselves. So, their genes wouldn't necessarily be removed from the gene pool in any case.
Also, I'm pretty sure everyone has moments of stupidity. That doesn't mean they are actually stupid.
Somebody claimed my link didn't provide the information. (All you had to do was click on "engine problems".)
Well here's literally dozens of links about the engines dying prematurely, and Toyota refusing the replace them (even though they were under warranty), thus becoming part of a class-action lawsuit, and being forced to reimburse customers for the ~$6000 they spent putting a new engine in a 1 or 2 year old car. http://www.bing.com/search?q=toyota+engine+sludging
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
Although hard on the drive train an automatic can be downshifted (within reason) without rev matching. When the difference between "gear" ratios would be too large (aka 5th to 1st at highway speed) most cars will wait until the difference won't cause the engine to redline.
Overall, the situation suggests he may not have been thinking clearly.
I'd like to have a member of the media placed in the driver seat of a suddenly and rapidly accelerating vehicle, with three family members in it, and have them think clearly about the situation.
Bow before me, for I am root.
Toyota scion and Lexus brands fit all of those demographics.
Karnal
If car is too fast for your taste, step on the break. Anyone who panics in such a case should not be in a car but on the train in the first place.
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
My accelerator got stuck on the highway. I disengaged the clutch and managed to get to a garage. No engine damage, no risk of accident. Manual transmission makes it easy.
Mandatory neutral-override with 3krpm limit would make more sense IMO.
ID: the nose did not occur naturally, how would we wear glasses otherwise? (apologies to Voltaire)
I've been in the auto business for almost 20 years. Without exception, every complaint of unintended acceleration, or the brake pedal is jammed it has been the result of a foreign object like the floor mat. Once it was a bottle of water that lodged behind the brake pedal.
.. just slip it into neutral - for manual or automatic transmission, then gradually apply the park brake.
on those rare occasions something like this comes up up the news, i cant help but think a) bullshit, and b) neutral, dipshit!
It still begs the question of why he didn't put the car in neutral
No, it raises the question. Begging the question is a totally different thing.
I was on ice. Ice also jammed the accelerator cable (which is what locked the engine at full throttle.)
Personally, I suspect three problems:
1. On ice, the ABS system may actually prevent applying full power to the brakes.
2. It was a pickup truck, and it had a ton of torque. As an engineer, I have my doubts that brakes could stop the engine. However, at least historically, brakes on most cars are not rated to full engine output. As a GM mechanic explained it to me: brakes on GM vehicles were rated to 70 mph, because that is (was) the legal requirement. Never mind the fact that most vehicles can go much faster than 70 mph.
3. If I had ice on the road, and ice on my accelerator cable, then it is possible that ice was present on the brakes themselves. However, I would think the pads would heat, and boil off the ice. Alternatively, the pads may possibly have heated and glazed, in which case there stopping power would be limited.
I religiously maintain my brakes. Lack of maintenance was not a factor in the failure.
All of these "pull over and stop" along the side of the road... can you imagine if this problem happened on a road such as US-1, where not being able to use the steering wheel means going over the side of a very big cliff (in most locations.)
Reading many of the comments here, are all drivers here from Texas or Kansas where the roads are wide and relatively safe?
When going downhill and the next curve is 50 meters away (or 50 yards) and you've got more to worry about than just turning the wheel, you can be sure that your response is not going to be as calm as many here predict when you've got about 5 seconds to get everything under control or you're over a large cliff.
I have no idea what "heel/toe" means but I think I know what you're talking about. When I downshift my manual, after depressing the clutch and engaging the lower gear I rev the engine up high enough that it meshes smoothly and thus you don't feel any change in speed. I taught myself how to drive stick by driving it home after a couple minutes of explanation from the previous owner. Sometimes (for instance when I'm taking an off ramp on a parkway) I downshift from 4th or even 5th to 2nd. With a decent amount of distance before the ramp I disengage and coast off the exit, then if necessary I brake a little to get it down into range for 2nd gear, rev and reengage it. I have no idea if that's what you're supposed to do but I've gotten good at it and the transmission doesn't make any unpleasant noises so I figure it's ok.
How many consumer transmissions have you seen damaged by this in the last twenty years?
[FUCK BETA]
build cars where the brakes can stop the motor always? works pretty well for the rest of the world, but we are also okay with having less than 200 hp under our asses ...
I don't understand the problem: When I punch the gas pedal and, at the same time, the brake, the brakes are ALWAYS stronger than the engine's acceleration, eventually even choking the engine off.
I've been in the stuck accelerator situation before (Cobalt SS, auto). Turning left in a school zone. Suddenly engine starts revving. Not like pedal to the metal, just a linear increase in RPM.
So I pushed into neutral, turned the key to shut the engine off, restarted the engine and continued on my way without stopping/swerving. There were no deaths, fires, or collisions. Perhaps briefly I was going too fast in a school zone.
Disclaimer: I'm a geek and maybe had "special training" for emergency situations (private pilot).
But seriously, this shit should be on the test. Driving is not a right. If you can't handle yourself in the most mundane of exciting situations, please don't drive.
How much work could a network work if a network could net work?
"The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." I'm still driving a 1986 Toyota 4Runner and wouldn't trade it for anything. But this proposal raises a problem. What if you have a standard transmission? Sometimes you have to heel/toe the brake and gas while you're stopped on a hill. IMHO, people are relying too much on technology or rather they assume that it's always going to work and so they unplug their brain. You can't fix stupid.
I've had throttles stick on several cars. Most notably was a turbocharged Thunderbird. That car was bucking like a cartoon character. It actually tore off one of the calipers. The most dangerous part? I couldn't turn off the ignition because of that damn steering wheel lock. I needed the steering to control the car which was going any way but straight. Turning off the ignition would lock the steering wheel in what ever position it was in. Any side force made it very difficult to turn the ignition back on. The exciting part was it'd only stick while cornering. The garage had it apart twice. I finally discovered a wiring harness under the dash that could swing just enough to catch the throttle linkage. Ty-Wrapped it up and that fixed it.
Not sure what this says about the "Highway Patrol Officer"'s abilities as a driver. If he couldn't manage either of those then this new system won't save him.
I have read elsewhere that the retired CHP officer's car (a Lexus) was actually determined to have an improperly installed floormat. It still begs the question of why he didn't put the car in neutral (an option even with automatic transmission).
That Lexus (a rental, not one he was familiar with) had an electronically controlled transmission which could not be overridden by the driver - no option to grind into park, or to coast in neutral, or to choose an inappropriate gear. No physical link between the selector and the tranny.
Also, "break-standing" a car - spinning the rear wheels while keeping the car at a standstill by the power of the front brakes alone - is a world apart from actually stopping a car from a high speed, where the wheel is tearing apart the overheated pad and the brake fluid is boiling. As I recall, his break pads were found to have been destroyed.
Can anyone believe that he wouldn't have been standing on the brake pedal? Has anyone tried stopping their car from maybe 70+, while keeping the gas pedal floored? (I haven't.)
Its easy to panic. My driving instructor put the car into cruise control on the high way without having told me how to turn it off again. I didn't really know how braking would affect it and might get hit by other drivers...so shit yeah, I panicked. It happens and then you really can't think straight on anything like you can when things are calm.
I had a stuck throttle (electronically to boot! Wasn't the physical pedal or its linkages, it was via an ECU) on my 82 Volvo not long ago. Instead of sitting there like a moron, and winning a Darwin award for me and my family, I used the built-in anti-stuck trhottle control --I turned the engine OFF. I had more than enough vacuum to use the brakes to stop.
My daughter drives a 20 (?) year old Toyota "old guy" car. I bought a Dodge Caliber because it has a Toyota CVT transmission, and my wife has killed 3 MoPar trannys over the years. Disclosure: I am an engineer from Detroit (Scholarship from Chrysler to the U of D), and most of my family and in-laws worked for Chrysler. I've had a '59 Dodge, '64 Valiant Slant 6, '70 Duster, couple minivans, three Colts, an Omni 024, and a Neon. They were by and large pieces of shit.
What I don't get is why nobody is screaming about the possible security ramifications of this. Right now, at least on most cars, the brake pedal is (at least partly) mechanical; no malware on the control computers could engage it.
Build an entirely electronic "full stop" override function into all new cars, and you're now just one small step away from a "Stop that terrrist!" button in the officer's car.
See the blue lights flashing behind you? Don't even think about trying to get away, as you no longer have that option...
[SHOW SOME LENIENCY TOWARDS
All vehicles do have this already, in manual transmission vehicles it is called the clutch pedal, in automatics it is called "Neutral". Both systems disengage a racing engine from the drive system allowing the vehicle operator to bring the vehicle to a safe stop on the side of the road where the racing engine may be killed by the turning off of the ignition cylinder.
My family has a story:
An elderly family member decided to turn left across two lanes of oncoming traffic. One driver was forced off the road and crashed. the police came, summonses issued, court date arrives. Elderly peep admits in court that she didn't see the oncoming driver, and didn't stop before the turn and the judge took the case under consideration for about three minutes.
He called elderly peep to the dock and told her:" This is a clear case of pilot error" she had to pay a fine and my mom took her home. Dad tried to remove license based on the judge's comments, she fought back: "But the judge said it was the pilot's error, not mine!"
The key words in the extended story is "retired" cop.
Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
I've had that, bloody scary since it happened going down a hill. Luckily I could still work the clutch enough to downshift.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
You have a citation for that?
Not saying you're wrong - I can well believe someone thinking that it's a good idea. But really, did nobody think again?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Somebody claimed my link didn't provide the information. (All you had to do was click on "engine problems".)
That's funny, because that is precisely what I clicked on. And you know what? You lied. No one was complaining about their warranty being voided. If you still disagree, then how about quoting the actual complaint so I can do a find on that? Because I refuse to do your work for you.
http://www.bing.com/search?q=toyota+engine+sludging
There you go again, making us do your work for you. If you can't be bothered to provide actual proof to your claims, don't be surprised when you get modded down.
Simply turning the key off, or shifting into neutral sounds like an easy fix, but actually doesn't work very well.
The problem is that most cars use (heavily) vacuum assisted braking. That depends on a running engine producing vacuum, not an engine turned off or blown out.
Try getting in your car without starting it, pump the brakes 3 or 4 times, then see how hard it is to push the pedal even halfway to the floor.
According to the ASE (http://www.freeASEstudyguides.com/brake-booster-operation.html) : Brake booster failure will leave a vehicle with a hard brake peddle making it much more difficult to stop.
A loss of vacuum from the engine simulates very nicely a brake booster failure.
If you turn the key off, that's usually a lock position combined with the off position. Because of the way most steering locks work, you then have to fight against the steering torque binding the locking pin to get the key back to the on position.
Put your key in your car, turn the steering wheel mildly hard against the lock, then try to turn the key to the on position. Not as buttery smooth as you might think?
Now imagine trying to do all this under the stress of a situation that triggers "fight or flight" adrenaline surges and guess how well you remember all this.
Didn't they already include a feature called "NEUTRAL" on most vehicles? Nooo let's add another electronic gizmo, I'm sure all the idiots who fail to understand the simple concept of pulling the gear lever into neutral or shutting off the engine or applying the BRAKES are just waiting for a big red "emergency stop" button right in the middle of their steering wheel. Can't wait until they start getting into accidents and sue the manufacturers because the "emergency stop" button didn't magically stop everything around them as well. While we're at it, let's remove all those confusing gauges that distract the driver, like the, uh, speedoh-meter and rpm. What the hell is an "rpm" anyway?
Idiocracy here we come.
I'd to point out that the brake pedal was disabled due to the floor-mat installation problem, in this particular case.
Bow before me, for I am root.
...you're using it wrong.
Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
If you have a limited slip differential, the system is designed (if I am thinking of the right kind of differential!) so that if one wheel is stopped, (stuck), the other continues to turn, and also this allows them to turn at different speeds so that turns can be made without one of the wheels on the axle slipping or skidding.
If one wheel looses traction, like if you're in the mud, the car or truck will experience the (pardon the expression) sensation of one wheel being comparatively stuck, (the one that still has traction) and one that is not (the one with no traction, that will spin freely). The way to drive out of this situation is traditionally to apply light braking pressure, while pushing on the accelerator pedal, to stop the traction-free wheel from spinning, allowing the other to receive power, using the traction it has, to move the vehicle forward, so that both wheels can return to pavement and/or having traction.
Will this override system not defeat this functionality of the limited slip differential and brakes in situations with differences in traction available to the wheels?
The media's periodic focus on unintended accelleration always focuses on the cars, when rational observers almost always conclude the failing part of the system was the driver. Car magazines have done these articles debunking, explaining, etc a number of times with these cycles. The general public doesn't care, doesn't want to learn, and wants it to be some else's fault, preferably someone with deep pockets. Media serves up exactly that. :-(
This is probably because it is very politically incorrect for a manufacturer or industry to blame a dead user...
In October 2000, at about 42,000 miles, the engine failed because of a sludge problem. The RX 300 was still under warranty, and though Mr. Meckstroth had receipts showing he had made all the oil changes, Lexus refused to cover the $8,000 repair, asserting poor maintenance was to blame.
A Better Business Bureau arbitrator later ruled the car was properly maintained and that Lexus should repair it under warranty. But there were other expenses Lexus would not cover, and Mr. Meckstroth was angry about the way he was treated.
“Toyota knew they had a defect and didn’t want to admit it,” he said. “That’s when and why I sued.”
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/01/toyota_sludge_settlement.html
Lazy-ass fucker. Or Lazy ass-fucker. Pick one, fucker. Or just admit you're wrong.
There, now was it really so hard to back up your claims? Granted, the particular passage you cited is not present, but at least that page does talk about warranties and how they were not being honored.
Lazy-ass fucker. Or Lazy ass-fucker. Pick one, fucker. Or just admit you're wrong.
Wrong about what, the fact that you were too lazy to properly back up your claims? Tell me, if you turned in a research paper to your professor, but failed to properly cite your sources, would you call your professor "lazy" when he gives you an F because the citations you did provide prove nothing that you said?