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$60 Light Bulb Debuts On Earth Day
theodp writes "How much would you pay for an amazing light bulb? On Sunday — Earth Day — Philips' $60 LED light bulb goes on sale at Home Depot and other outlets. The bulb, which lasts 20 years, won a $10 million DOE contest that stipulated the winning bulb should cost consumers $22 in its first year on the market. Ed Crawford, the head of Philips' U.S. lighting division, said it was always part of the plan to have utility rebates bring the price down to the $22 range."
How many people does it take to change it?
Reading lights on the bus I ride have been replaced with multi-LED cluster bulbs - in less than 18 months most have several dead LEDs in the cluster.
Yeah, I'd consider 60 bucks.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Hopefully it comes closer to these claims than the CFLs, which claimed 5 year lives, but often failed within a few weeks.
So far i've been totally unimpressed with LED lights. They just don't seem to last even as long as an old incandescent bulb at all. While costing a ton more money. Light color looks pretty good. But lifetime is really horrible. Near as i can figure i'm losing money as well on the bulb cost vs. the electricity used.
Maybe this one will be different... But not at $60 a pop. Or even $22. Get it down to $8 and we'll talk. And i might even put up with them burning out way too quick sometimes.
Philips AmberLEDs i bought for $20 each from home depot. In some areas they are now $15. Awesome light color and brightness. When they first went on sale they were $50-$60 each. now they are $20. Wait for a year and the pricing of these will also drop to $15-$20 making them affordable.
God Bless America, and All Who Sail on Her!
I'd buy one of these, but I'm saving up to pay my CARBON TAXES!
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
FTA: "The bulb is the most energy-efficient yet, lasts about 20 years and is supposed to give off a pleasing, natural-looking light. "
Please define "natural looking light". Some people think the horrid yellow from an incandencant bulb is natural looking and complain about anything that isn't yellow. I personally have replaced my whole house lighting with daylight CFLs (5000-5500K) and can't stand yellow light anymore.
It's not that the latest technology is expensive it's that the light-bulb won $10million and one of the requirements was that the bulb cost consumers $22. The best excuse they could come up with was we were planning on their light-bulb being heavily subsidized which is the reason for the high price.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
I've had a very similar looking bulb to this new one in use in my living room for some time now. Very pleased with the quality of light it puts out, and works properly in an lamp with a dimmer circuit in it (some LED bulbs flash in dimmer equipped outlets). It's the strangest looking bulb I've seen - it's dandelion yellow when off, but blazing white when turned on. I'd pay $60 for an improved version just to give it a try.
In my experience CFLs last no longer than incandescents. Why should I believe that these claims about LEDs are not also lies?
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
I wont be buying any though....well maybe a few as a stop-gap but, not many.
I have been getting RGB LED strips, and looking to totally replace the house lighting. Part of the problem here is the "bulb". Yes, if you stick to a bulb form factor, and be backwards compartible, it can be hard to get enough light from LEDs, and expensive to build out etc.
However, bulbs were just the first invention....what makes that form factor so superior except for backwards compatibility?
I am looking at long strips, more like flourecent tube fixtures than bulbs. Can use many cheaper LEDs instead of a few expensive big ones... can use RBG LEDs and thus be able to change colors, or even white temp.
Of course, the stips are cheap pre-made, cheaper than I can find the LEDs on them in fact (cheapest price for 1000 in bulk was more expensive per LED than buying strips of 150 at a time) and the strips have limiting resistors, which are a major source of power loss (would be better to drop the resistor and use a constant current circuit.... but having to desolder or jumper smd resistors on each and every segment of the strip defeats the purpose of buying strips to make it easy)
Still though.... at $60/bulb.... ouch. and...its still just a bulb... with a single light color?
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
I bought about 30 of the Feit Electric 40W equivalent bulbs at Costco last year ($10-$12 each).
Although rated for 7 years, I've had to return 4 of them in the roughly 9 months I've had them (failure to light).
Luckily Costco is good about this, but I'd sure hate to spend $60 on a bunch of bulbs and have them go TU after a year or two.
(Who wants to save the box and receipts for 20 years)
On the up side, the electric bill is down about $15 a month, so perhaps they will pay for themselves before Costco stops taking returns on them...
Um. BFD. LED light bulbs have been out for years. I've replaced every bulb in my house with them, already..
Okay. But the light bulb is heavily subsidized. I get rebates from my power company for a variety of things. I've gotten rebates on CF bulbs in the past. If rebates were part of the rules of the competition, then I don't really understand your objection.
Does your experience concern Philips CFLs? I have one that has lasted since 1998.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Don't worry, the LEDs will still have tens of thousands of hours left in them when a $.02 capacitor blows its guts out and terminates the driver board because a $.05 capacitor would have bloated the BOM too much...
This article doesn't mention it, but part of the increased cost is the fact that the parts are made in CA & they are assembled in WI. So you're going to pay more for them compared to the same thing from China. And these seem pretty advanced, so you may not be able to buy an equivalent yet. Certainly, if I see them subsidized, I'll pick up a few.
And therefore most likely an anti-Philips submission, intended to shame them into dropping the price. The actual article says Philips is already doing this.
Netherlands-based Philips, is discounting it right away to $50 for consumers, and working on deals with electric utilities to discount it even further, by as much as $20 to $30.
This means the bulb will cost anywhere from $20 to $60, depending on where it's found.
And of course more clarification
Congress launched the L Prize contest in 2007, with the goal of creating a bulb to replace the standard, energy-wasting "incandescent" 60-watt bulb. The requirements were rigorous, and Philips was the only entrant. Its bulb was declared the winner last year, after a year and a half of testing. The contest stipulated that the winning bulb be sold for $22 in its first year on the market... In that context, the $60 price tag has raised some eyebrows.
The title of the PhysOrg article? "Rebates to cut price of $60 LED bulb". That's a positive, and theodp should be ashamed for trolling.
They've been able to make light bulbs which last an almost indefinite amount of time since the early 1930's. The first cartel revolved around manufacturers agreeing to only produce bulbs which lasted 1000 hours on average. The documentary revolves around planned obsolescence and the light bulb is its main example. Having seen it, this claim by Phillips isn't terribly impressive.
For what my anecdotal account is worth, I'm completely satisfied with my CFLs. I've had nothing but CFLs in my house since about '04 and have only had to replace a half-dozen or so.
The energy savings justified the cost of the switch from incandescent bulbs to CFLs. Going from CFLs to LEDs, it isn't even close.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
I'm interested in getting some lumen and kelvin numbers. I'm an LED lighting distributor and manufacturers I go through in China, Korea, and Japan have these household LEDs with CREE components for a fraction of that price with life span of over 50,000 hours. The actual parts and manufacturing of these isn't too expensive, it's the huge overhead that Philips has that kills it price wise.
> Does your experience concern Philips CFLs?
Many different brands.
> I have one that has lasted since 1998.
And I have one incandescent that has lasted since 1995. Outliers happen.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
I mean really, you can't drive adoption with a $60 bulb. Most people at the store going I've got 3 bulbs out are going to go "hrm $15 dollars or $180" Which do you think they are going to pick?
I'd love to know the Margins on this.
Since you can get el-cheapo incandescents at around 50 cents each, I've changed maybe 3-4 in the last 10 years, no thanks...
Can they be dimmed using a *standard* inexpensive dimmer? Besides, aren't some LEDs very narrow in their color range (and too cold too)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode#White_light
I've got better things to do tonight than die.
Utilities already offer rebates on energy-saving products such as compact-fluorescent bulbs, or CFLs. In return for efforts to curb energy use, regulators allow utilities to raise their rates. The discounts are invisible to consumers - the utilities pay the stores directly.
My understanding from this is if you buy them it might end up a wash (you pay more per unit energy but consume less), but if you don't the power company really gets to put the screws to you (you pay more per unit energy and consume more energy) and you basically end up subsidizing your neighbor's purchase of a light bulb.
Time to offend someone
How is the Phillips $60 light bulb different than this $15 bulb?
Oh, and there are already complaints on the home depot site that it causes radio interference.
Because rebates are false savings, especially as they are practised by power companies. You can buy a green, eco-friendly, low-power Model XYZ A/C unit for $300 this year, or wait until next year when your power utility offers a $100 rebate on that particular model BUT the price has magically risen to $400.
I'm willing to bet the $60 Philips lightbulb is a $22 lightbulb with $38 in "rebates" layered on for the beenfit of Philips, the power utilities, and various other green advocates.
Great! At that rate, the bulb will pay for itself in 8 years!
In my experience CFLs last no longer than incandescents.
Seriously? I have an early Ikea CFL in my basement which is ~10 years old; I may replace it sometime just because the new bulbs have a better light color. I have only had to replace a couple of CFLs (well, maybe 5) which died in use; I used to have to replace incandescents much more frequently.
I have had bad luck with early LEDs, however; apart from the fact that their light was too blue for my wife to tolerate, they seemed to die way too quick. I'd give this one another try though, since they seem to have worked on the color issue & hopefully the quality will be better.
Then they can keep it.
I don't understand why everyone is/was so excited about CFLs. When they broke into the mainstream a few years ago, they were more expensive but were long lasting and energy efficient -- at least, that's what we were told. I have owned many, and ALL of them have died prematurely. Sometimes an entire package will be dead within a few weeks of purchase. Who in their right mind pays for such garbage? The carbon footprint of making and then throwing them away must be far larger than the savings in electricity. Also they are slower to light up than the good old fashioned bulbs. Why does nobody admit that?
So, do these new light bulbs come with a 20 year replacement warranty? If not, there's NO FRICKIN' WAY I would buy it. Also, I'm not convinced that these new bulbs actually make the same light. I'll wait until I've seen it in person.
-d
"Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
My objection (and I am not parent poster, obviously) is that I'm still paying the full price of the bulb. Rebates aren't magically printed money, and that $60 cost has to come from *somewhere*. Ultimately it comes right out of our power bills or tax dollars. Subsidies hide the true costs of something and ultimately just serve to benefit one company or another while reducing the variety in the market ecosystem - look at oil, corn, or any number of other subsidized industries as an example. It also only propagates our short-sighted obsession with up front costs. CFLs are subsidized here - but I'd still buy them if they weren't because I understand the differences in power consumption.
+1 Disagree
They claim a 20 year lifetime at 4 hours/day, but how bright will it be after 20 years? LED's reduce their light output over time, and the end of life is based on some loss of brightness (30% loss?), so that 60 watt bulb may be more like a 40 watt bulb by the end of its lifetime. And based on previous LED lights I've seen, I'm skeptical that it's really equivalent in brightness to a 60 watt incandescent bulb in the first place.
Maybe LEDs will be better in some way, but paint me a skeptic. Oh, and here's an incandescent light bulb that has been in continuous operation for 110 yrs. I wonder what they paid for it. http://www.centennialbulb.org/
One reason for CFL failures is that they are not well protected against input power problems. In particular, screwing one into a socket which is turned on is a recipe for failure. So I guess we need to make sure we have an incandescent handy to check for the lamp being on? LOL!
I have looked at the Philips lamp datasheet. Pretty thin. I saw nothing on color temperature, for one thing. Probably because adding control over color temp to the mix will further increase costs. But for those who prefer a warm (incandescent-type) light, color temp is important. And frankly, if I am going to pay $60 for a 60W equivalent lamp (I won't, but that's not the point) I expect high quality, reliability, and well documented operating parameters. Less than that makes it just another rip-off engineered in response to green initiatives.
Get government out of the market, and costs of most things will reduce.
--- Bill
A bulb in my stairwell just burned out. The only way to replace it is to stand on the part of the ladder that says "not a step", or rent a taller ladder (and I'm not certain that I could maneuver one into place). I'd happily pay $60 not to have to replace this bulb again.
Same. $3 per year is reasonable to save on energy costs. Unfortunately my "7-year" CFL bulbs died in 1 - 2 years.
Why is this news? LED bulbs have been available at Home Depot for months. I have purchased more than a few and the least expensive was $17. Costco sells a pack of three for around $20 or so.
How are they gonna make money when eventually everyone has one of these and it takes 20 years for it to die...
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
I've taken apart a number of Philips' premium lighting products (both top-end CFLs and also electronic ballasts for fluorescent and high-intensity discharge lamps).
I was pretty surprised to see absolutely nothing but the best components. All the capacitors were either high quality metalized film, ceramic or premium ultra-long-life high-temperature Japanese Al electrolytic from a tier 1 manufacturer.
Similarly, the active components were heavily over-specified 100% avalanche rated rugged MOSFETs, with high quality protection (diode clamps and current limiting resistors) on the gate drives.
While cheap Chinese CFLs often use garbage grade components - I was pretty surprised at the quality of the commercial lighting products - but then I suppose that's why these units command such high prices.
We are not, not, NOT going to solve our energy problems by changing light bulbs. I am annoyed by the fact that I am asked to spend $60 on an energy efficient light bulb -- meanwhile brightly-lit, extravagant casinos operate 24/7, with more being built every day.
Proverbs 21:19
Does your experience concern Philips CFLs? I have one that has lasted since 1998.
So this means... that all Phillips CFLs will last 14+ years? No, it means that one did. It says absolutely nothing about the quality and longevity of all other Phillips CFLs manufactured in 1988.
Anecdotal evidence is... anecdotal.
Right. No, your other right. No, the other other right.
Ultimately it comes right out of our power bills
Perhaps the power companies see it as an investment. Subsidizing the development (and eventual economies of scale) of technologies that use less power will allow a power company to put off expensive upgrades to generators and the grid for a few years.
Don't worry, the LEDs will still have tens of thousands of hours left in them when a $.02 capacitor blows its guts out and terminates the driver board because a $.05 capacitor would have bloated the BOM too much...
Friending you for that comment, cause that's probably what will happen.
Hmm... digging around some more, I find this breathless press release that says the competition dictates a minimum three year warranty. Funny how they advertise 20 years but promise only 3. Keep that in mind when deciding to purchase.
Living in southern climes (N hemisphere), I personally look forward to cheaper LED bulbs, though I think the whoop-de-doo is overestimated for people who live in northern climes or for rarely used lights. This is one place where the Republicans were right... I want a 75-cent bulb for my coat closet, not a $3 one and certainly not a $25 subsidized one.
-1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
how much are they charging for a dimmable version?
What is the bulb's color rendering index? Why no one ever mentions CRI when talking about energy-saving bulbs? Most of them (cheap ones, especially) produce unnatural tiring light due to low CRI, which is why I still use only incandescent and halogen lamps in my flat.
My power company doesn't give a subsidy for buying these LED bulbs so, no, I really CAN'T get it for $22 and Philips scammed the taxpayer by making false claims to win the prize.
And other companies sell their bulbs for about half the $60 pricetag. Considering Philips got handed millions of free cash, they should be able to do the same.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
So, they still have 364 days to lower the price to $22.
What if they only made one light bulb and it cost $10,000,022? But with a $10 million subsidy, they still deserve to win, right?
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
So when you move, you'll need to take all your $60 lightbulbs with you, or, you can charge the buyer a few thousand dollars more for all the lightbulbs. BTW with a bulb that expensive I want a warranty.
How much waste will be produced and how many resources will be consumed for a person to generate the $60 to buy one of these things?
I bought five LED "40 watt replacement" bulbs on NewEgg when they were on one of the daily/shell-shocker/whatever deals. My intention was to replace the CFLs in our reading lamps because my daughter has headache issues, and I wanted to see if that was part of the problem. Unfortunately the LEDs I purchased have such a stark cold light... no one could stand using them for reading.
On the plus side, they were very bright - a lot brighter than an equivalent 40W incandescent. And so far they've been reliable, although it's only been six months since I purchased the things.
#DeleteChrome
With the various types of lightbulbs on the market these days, I put together some simple rules for buying them:
1. Lights that are left on for long periods of time -- CFLs. CFLs last a long time if they are not constantly switched on and off, and they offer the best brightness and cost effectiveness. Nightlights, and my living room and kitchen lights, are all CFLs. They have lasted for years. The nightlight in my kitchen is on 24 hours a day, and I just changed it after 5 years of constant use. The trick to making CFLs last is to never turn them off.
2. Lights that need to be turned on and off frequently -- LEDs. The lifetime of CFLs is limited by how often you switch them on and off. If you need to switch a light often but don't care if it's a little dim, put an LED there. (LEDs are dimmer than other types of lights.) My bedroom and basement/laundry lights are LEDs.
3. Lights that need to be bright and/or that need to light up right away -- Incandescents. Yes, I still have incandescents in my bathroom and on my porch. Both locations need light that is brighter than LEDs can put out, and the light needs to come on immediately which CFLs are poor at doing. If I used either LEDs or CFLs in those spots there would be times when I would be stumbling around in dim light in a dangerous area.
Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
EXCEPT other companies already sell their LED bulbs for about half the $60 pricetag. Considering Philips got handed millions of free taxpayer dollars, they should be able to do the same by diverting that cash to reducing the pricetag. (This is reminiscient of the telephone companies getting millions in 1996 telecommunication subsidies to run fiber to the home, and then they never did.)
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
My CFLs last so long I don't even bother keeping spares around. It has been, literally, years since the CFLs in the living room or kitchen have been replaced. The bedroom lamp died when the ceiling leaked. I do not consider that to be the CFLs fault. My CFLs do exactly what they say they do. But, like others state above, I don't buy cheap Chinese knockoffs.
It may last a long long time but I'm likely going to replace my "decor" every 5-15 years, so unless there's a used-bulb resale market, I'm going to assume a 5-year life when I comparison-shop.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I've had it for a month.
I love it. Very bright, great light.
To be honest, the only place it falls down is in the electronics.
Compared to $30 EcoSmart 60W bulb I got from Home Depot, the L Prize starts up slower (about 0.25sec versus instant), can turn red when it dims (sometimes the blue LED driver circuit cuts out and the red stays on) and sometimes when you turn the L Prize off it flashes once about 0.25sec after you turn it off.
Finally, putting both bulbs on an oscilloscope, the L Prize also has a messier current waveform, far more harmonic distortion than the other bulb.
What gives? This is a great bulb, but the electrics seem like they could use some improvement.
Any comments?
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
I switched to using leds quite early (not Philips), and while the energy saving is definitely worth it I've had one die on me and another if flickering occationally.
The issue seems to be the electronics rather than the leds themselves. And while I do plan to buy leds in the future as well I think it's premature to assume the 20 year figure will hold. Time will tell.
.: Max Romantschuk
I can sell you that bulb for $30 right now. It is still pricey but in 18months have been cut in half price wise. As production gears up expect them to fall until the 15-20 range. As it is they are awesome lamps. You can put them into existing fixtures and dimmers and not think twice
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
Maybe it's just my experience with cheap bulbs, but I have yet to see a CFL or LED bulb that wasn't some terribly limited spectrum that made everything hideous or dim looking.
I don't intend to pick on Philips specifically, not enough data to judge them against their peers; but more to express my frustration with the failure modes so common among the (not always predictable in any useful way) questionably well made offerings.
For some reason, the 'lightbulb' form factor seems to bring out the worst in designers of driver boards: Your basic, boring, overhead fluorescent tubes can be found running until their electrodes eventually degrade on some 80's inverter that has probably seen at least a dozen tubes come and go. LEDs, similarly, seem to last forever in their miscellaneous applications; but the moment they get shoved into lightbulbs half off them are either not receiving power, or in a series chain with a blown one, long before you get to start worrying about serious dimming or phosphor breakdown.
Neither tubes nor LEDs are, themselves, immortal of course; but it's just frustrating to see how often it's the driver board that keels over and dies long before the (generally not user-swappable) light emitters themselves are ready to go...
In my experience CFLs last no longer than incandescents. Why should I believe that these claims about LEDs are not also lies?
LEDs are a long-established technology; the only new thing is that they are now made bright enough, and in colors close enough to pure white, to be suitable for general room illumination.
Do you have any 20+ year old electronic equipment? Do the LEDs in that equipment still light up? (Probably.) Everyone has seen a NES console that won't boot because of a dirty/worn cartridge connector, but how many have you ever seen where that stupid red power light won't blink?
Do they sell similarly spec'd bulbs at that price? I'm pretty sure Phillips has $30 LED bulbs as well. That doesn't mean those ones fit the "rigorous" requirements of the competition.
$60 each! At that price, the only way they pay for themselves is to use them to grow "cash crops".
the cost of LED lighting will have come down. The Chinese will have done what they did to the solar cell market and flood the market with cheap LED bulbs. Anyway, you people do know there are energy efficient incandescent bulbs. They're not as efficient as LED or CFL bulbs but use about I think about 70% the energy a regular bulb does. I'm using those where I can't use CFL or LEDs.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
It's not that the latest technology is expensive it's that the light-bulb won $10million and one of the requirements was that the bulb cost consumers $22. The best excuse they could come up with was we were planning on their light-bulb being heavily subsidized which is the reason for the high price.
Perhaps they should paint a picture of a fruit on it to justify the high price....
Funny how they advertise 20 years but promise only 3.
At a $60 price tag, that doesn't boost my confidence in their product. If they are going to claim 20 years, they should have a warranty of at least between 10 and 15 years.
This:
"I'm still paying the full price of the bulb"
means almost the exact opposite of this:
"that $60 cost has to come from *somewhere*"
Yes. The money comes from somewhere: it comes from somewhere other than from you. No, you don't pay the full price of the bulb, you pay $22/60, plus maybe another ten cents, and the rest of society pays for the rest. Congratulations, you just benefited from a transfer program which society set up because society thinks the world is better with it, than without it. Society wants people like you to have a bit of their money, which is why we voted for leaders to give us such programs. If you don't want the money, that's okay too, you don't have to bother with the rebates.
I object when I hear people say that all market distortions are bad. No, they aren't Many market distortions are good. Some are bad. Obviously these are judgement calls, but to equate oil subsidies with LED subsidies is absurd and does a dis-service to everyone. It is culpably simplistic reasoning. (Let me be perfectly explicitly clear: it's still okay if you think this particular market distortion is bad, but it is not okay to thus conclude that all market distortions are bad.)
I'm glad you would buy the bulbs un-subsidized. Me too, probably. But that's not the question, the question is would other people buy them, large numbers of people. If the answer is yes, then perhaps no market distortion is necessary; but apparently the people who set it up thought the answer was no, and I tend to agree with them.
If you tell me who your power company is, I will attempt to show you that you are wrong about the rebates available to you. Before you answer too quickly, consider that many rebates are available from places other than your one power company. My CFL rebates, for instance, were from some company in Seattle, but I live in Wisconsin. Why? I don't know. Nevertheless, I still bet your power company has some kinds of programs, because I've never heard of one that doesn't. But you can show me my first, by telling me what company supplies your electricity, and I will do the leg work of googling "[company name] + rebate".
Sure, if there are ten-million-dollar subsidies available to whoever buys them, and that is the rules of the competition. Do you want to ask the same question with another absurd number? The answer will still be the same.
If I am spending my own money, I'd be tempted to just get this one:
http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-led-lightbulb-philips-ambientled/
I wonder what the differences are? Maybe the $25 one is assembled in China?
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
this is NOT the EnduraLED bulb you dumbass. That one has been around since 2010.
This is the new one :
http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Light-Bulbs-LED-Light-Bulbs/Philips/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbm79Z15b/R-203285540/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051
It has the L Prize blister pack and is known as the L Prize bulb.
Yeah, there are many cheaper ones already out there... I ordered several "G7 Power" chinese 9w LED bulbs, easily brighter than the 65w incandescent floods they replaced. Look them up on amazon. They are cool to the touch and very bright, and have a "lifetime guarantee". Why have these things not gotten more press?? Are they doomed to fail in a short amount of time?
The utility is saving money by not building another power plant.
Theoretically these things last 20 years but in practice I doubt they all do. I have about 35 spot lights in my house with LED bulbs. In the last 30 months I've replaced about 8 of them. They've saved money over halogens and still blow less than halogens but I'm not getting 20 years. The most common failure appears to be a single led in the bulb goes and then the whole bulb dies. That's the sort of thing which sucks because one would have thought that they build redundancy into a bulb so one dead LED doesn't take out the entire thing.
I was actually annoyed that the expensive flourescent "bulbs" I got burned out in less than a year. Save on energy used but wasteful on energy used to manufacture and creating plenty of toxics. Easier to just turn the lights off when you're not in the room.
Just a quick google finds this to be true.
Dimmable 9 Watt LED Bulb Standard Screw Base A80 60 Watt Replacement Warm.
http://www.amazon.com/Dimmable-LED-Replacement-Ledwholesalers-1020ww/dp/B004ORMXBO
Oh, look, it uses less power 8.8 watts vs 10, and lasts longer 40k hrs vs 30k.
For 16 bucks!!
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
As a few others stated on here too -- it really depends a lot on where you install and use the CFL in question.
The ones I've always had the best luck with are ones installed in a cool basement, in one of those old-fashioned sockets with a pull-string or chain, where the whole bulb is fully exposed.
By contrast, the ones I installed inside enclosed ceiling fixtures in the kitchen all failed in a matter of months. A visual inspection usually showed discoloration of the white plastic casing or actual burn marks where something in the circuit board popped.
Obviously, quality matters too. I bought some "no name" CFLs at my local Lowe's store not long ago, and one of them failed in the first week of use. The others in the same bunch are still working -- but it was clear they lacked a bit in the quality control dept. if 1 in 3 I bought failed like that.
The biggest issue I have with CFLs though is that whole "warm up" period for a couple minutes before they reach normal brightness. I tried some G.E. branded "instant on" variations and those suck even worse. All they seemed to do was boost power to the CFL for the first 30 seconds or so, so they start out really bright, and then that circuit suddenly switches off and brightness suddenly drops.
From what I can tell big difference they are using phosphor codings to correct the normally crappy led spectrum.
Spectrum looks very clean but still a small spike around blue/purple.
http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/us_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/EnduraLED_A19-110726_2.pdf
Still think I'm going to skip leds and save up for quantum dots and carbon nano tube lighting.
The Republicans would be more believable if the real costs of a bulb weren't operation, but actual purchase price.
Let's say you get a 60-watt bulb, with a thousand hour life.
That's 60*1000 watt hours. 60,000 watts, or 60 kilowatts. Now admittedly, kilowatts are cheap, at 10 cents, but still, that's almost doubling the price of your bulb.
And it only lasts 1000 hours, so you have to buy more of them.
Republicans need to measure comparable things, not just rely on short-term thinking.
where do you hang your coat? on the bathroom towel rack?
Profit!
My finger math doesn't add up here?!
My house takes 36 lightbulbs. That's... over two grand. I'll have to take out a loan.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
I'll match your anecdote with my own. I have had CFLs running 24x7 for well over 2 years, which is well over twice their rating of 8000 hours, and at least sixteen times the rated life of an incandescent.
Anyone know the power factor on these? I know some CFLs have crappy power factors -- a "don't care" if you're buying your power but potentially a big deal if you're making your own power!
This sig has exceed its monthly bandwidth allotment.
So will lava lamps be illegal in two years? Why? What about the heat lamps that keep our fries warm? Do warm fries cause global climate change now?
Considering my experience with non-name knockoff CFL and LED bulbs not living up to spec -- actually not even coming close -- I'll pay the extra for the tested and quality controlled GE bulb.
Between CFLs that melt unless actively cooled and LEDs that don't come close to color temperature or have a decent dispersion angle, it has been a disappointment.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Precisely.
I've got products (computers) which were warrantied for 1 year which have lasted over 10. For electronics with no moving parts it is not unreasonable to expect 10 years of service, even in non-ideal conditions, assuming you do not have severely bad power.
Consider for a moment that cheap and partially blown power supplies can remain putting out power for years, and that the only way to kill a LED is to, basically, burn it out through overvoltage. How likely is that to happen? Hopefully not very, or the fundamental engineering was flawed: the breaker box should be able to handle everything up to being struck by lightning.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
First of all, in 1000 hours (typical incandescent lifetime) a 60W equivalent CFL saves $5.00 in electricity, so if the price premium for a CFL is less than that, it's still the economical choice (assuming $0.11/kWh) even if it lasts no longer.
My main point is that the way various light bulbs (and CFLs in particular) burn out is actually a pretty complicated process, but LEDs are pretty much the best for most non-high-temperature applications (ie. oven lights), and that they aren't lying maliciously; your usage most likely just differs from their test process. The test process for CFLs involves something like turning it on for 5+ hours at a time, which is typical lighting use in commercial or industrial buildings, but in most people's home many lights are on for 5-10 minutes at a time (bathrooms, garages, halls, walk-in closets, etc.) so they are turned on/off 25 times as much for the same amount of runtime---which results in early failure because of the loss of emission mix. Alternatively, if the power from the grid is of poor quality in your home, the ballast or emission mix may contribute to early failure.
I will replace every light bulb in your house with the highest quality LED lights available, and your wife can come stay with me in my house with only the best in old-fashioned lighting. Everyone happy now?
Most 'N-year' bulb-life estimates assume a 4-hour 'day'. That is, they assume the average bulb will be on for about 4 hours per day. (I'm not sure why, but it seems to be a common thing.) If you have your lights on more than that it will impact your *actual* blub-life even though it really is living up to the on-package estimate.
No point in buying a bulb which lasts 20 years. By 2020, there would be more efficient bulbs and this would be banned. And by 2020, both Google and Facebook would have capability to report to the Govt what bulb you turn on, the ban will also work on products which have already been purchased before the ban.
You put "GE" and "quality" in the same sentence?
Facepalm!
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
How many Prolog programmers does it take to change a lightbulb? false.
20 years at only 4 hours per day is what they advertise. 3 years at 24 hours a day is the equivalent of 18 years at 4 hours a day. Their warranty must be counting on a worst-case usage model. I wouldn't call that entirely unfair.
I use $5 battery powered motion-activated stick-up LED lamps for closets (with $3 worth of eneloops in them.) Mainly because there's no wiring run to them in this old house. They never blow out, and I rent, so if I move, they get tossed in a crate, no need to carefully pack them. Those closets where there was a socket used to blow their bulbs once per year. I'm now 7 years in on the stick-up lamps, so it's some time yet before I'll make my money back on those compared to replacing bulbs, and I annually top up the batteries so there is little convenience benefit versus changing bulbs, but considering a motion sensor for 120VAC costs as much as the lamp+batteries, in some respects I already have made my money back. They aren't powerful lights, but why I would need 40+W of light to find my vacuum cleaner is beyond me, and being magnetically attached means I can grab them to use them as a flashlight if needed. FWIW LED lights unlike CFLs are probably more tolerant to very occasional use and applications where they are turned on/off a lot (e.g. via motion sensors) than even incandescents.
Someone had to do it.
You are the very model of a modern major generalizer.
Might want to stop with the assumption that large groups of people all think and operate in the exact same way.
A 100 watt incandescent light bulb should cost $60 and and this LED light should cost $1, that the only way you are going to get stupid poor people (i.e. the 99%) to save the planet.
Want to fight obesity? A Big Mac should cost $30 and an organic produce salad should be $1.
Gas should be $10 a gallon, the bus should be $1/day for unlimited use.
Catch my drift?
The problem with the whole "Green" movement is that it was created and marketed towards rich Yuppies who feel so guilty about driving their dumb ass gas guzzlers and living in their huge, inefficient houses and so feel compelled to drop crap loads of money on stuff to take their guilt away. Such as $60 light bulbs, expensive organic produce, the "other" car(s) that is a Hybrid, the stupidity of paying carbon taxes, etc.
Green is purely about marketing, period. Its not about saving the planet. If you wanted to save the planet make the crap that is destroying it expensive and the stuff that will fix it dirt cheap. Then the other 99% will pick up the Green cause and make change will actually happen.
The problem with crap like this light bulb is for all the energy your are saving, the help you hire to clean your house and drive you around town is using 100 watt light bulbs which serve as better space heaters then sources of light, thus negating what impact you are trying to achieve.
I would rather see a world where the 99% uses LED bulbs, and only the 1% can afford their polar bear killing designer incandescents.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
I saw a demo of this bulb, and the remote phosphor panels seemed to be removable. Will we be able to get special colors?
I'm thinking pure colors as well as different temps of white light.
Also, does this bulb degrade gracefully? i.e. If one LED burns out, do the others continue to light?
All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
So how much will the "product replacement plan" cost. You know the one that all retailers try to sale us. You buy something and then they charge you X dollars so if it device dies you can bring it back to them and not the manufacture. Also think about how many bulbs get replaced in a home. How we will know what bulb was 10 years in use vs 15 years or even 2 years? Are there going to be serial numbers on these things so we can keep track?
Paul: Father... father, the sleeper has awakened! - Dune
What about the energy spent producing the bulbs, and the energy used by the workers (their salaries come from that high priced bulb)?
You must do that type of in depth analysis to find the true costs of these things. Assuming no externalities, then price is the final arbiter of energy efficiency, because all money is eventually spent on energy of one type or another. This is why the poorest man today is richer than the greatest king of 1500 years ago--access to cheap energy.
I'm not sure who should receive the bulk of our ire but I'm leaning toward being more angry at the DOE for awarding a prize to a company that didn't meet the requirements of the competition.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Same. $3 per year is reasonable to save on energy costs. Unfortunately my "7-year" CFL bulbs died in 1 - 2 years.
Keep in mind too that if you live in an area that requires cooling most of the year, using a light bulb that puts out less heat savings on cooling energy, and makes your house more comfortable.
The issue is that 90% of Americans will not buy it because it's initial cost is too high. Most people only look at the cost of the bulb and disregard the cost of replacement bulbs and the electricity required to light it.
If you look at a 5 or 10 year TCO I'm sure the bulb makes a lot of sense, but when most people in America are living paycheck to paycheck, saving $200 over the next 10 years isn't worth spending $100 today.
Probably better to check your electrics are up to scratch and nice and safe than have a short set fire to your house and burn your kids to death....
It's going to get better and cheaper so now is not the time for a 20yr commitment. Though if no one buys it then it might not improve.
When they adopt the same slogans, patterns, and positions, I'd say they are thinking and operating in accord with each other.
Especially when they have no tolerance for dissent or disagreement, as the Republican party acts in regards to the environment. No matter what, you have to utter their shibboleths, or they run you out.
But hey, you're acting just like them, adopting an attitude of attack the critic while never one acknowledging your own faults.
So...yeah, keep telling me that the Republicans AREN'T engaging in short-term thinking, I can see what they're saying and doing, and unlike you, I can see the truth of it.
I made my own LED light bulb, it cost me 4 dollars, it'll last long enough. Suck my dick, Philips.
I'd love to start converting my home to LED lights. But right now, nearly every bulb I see is 2700K. I *hate* that sickly yellow color. So I'm waiting for 3000 or better yet, 3500K bulbs.
Ultimately it comes right out of our power bills or tax dollars.
Yes, but you need to compare apples and apples. When my neighbor keeps on using a low-efficiency incandescent bulb, they're putting more CO2 in the atmosphere, because where I live, the source of energy is virtually all fossil fuels. That means that my kids and grandkids are subsidizing my neighbor, who doesn't have to pay the real cost of global warming. We also wouldn't have fought the last three wars if there wasn't oil in the middle east, so when I pay my income taxes this week, I'm subsidizing the use of fossil fuels by paying the ruinous costs of those wars.
It also only propagates our short-sighted obsession with up front costs.
You've got this precisely backwards. Using an incandescent bulb is a short-sighted decision based on ignoring the long-term consequences of global warming.
Find free books.
My outdoor LED bulb (bought at Costco) is still going strong after 4 years. It goes on automatically when the sun goes down and turn off automatically.
For the price that I paid (about $18) years ago - it is well worth the cost.
I bought 8 of a similar LED to replace the overhead incandescent 60W floods. Cost $40 at Home Depot.
I did the math and compared to the power hogging incandescents which we were using, we're in the black after 2 years. I forget the exact numbers, but I own a Chicago garden apartment and we work from home, so these lights are on ~5 hours a day, more in the winter. In locations where we use it half that much, the payback time is twice as long, etc.
The thing about the overhead bulbs is that they are GOOD. Unlike CLF floods, which I tried several and none were acceptably good. These put out wide spectrum light, tinted towards yellow, and dim nicely down to about 10% total output. Silent. Also, they should be the last light bulbs I buy for a long time, which seems pretty reasonable to me. I suspect most people won't be willing to take a $300 hit at the register, so maybe these will find their first use in new construction.
You're right, the $60 for the bulb doesn't come directly from my wallet. I probably won't end up paying that $40 difference in power costs or taxes or even increased costs for good or services who have to pay for the power costs and taxes themselves to fund the subsidy. It is still an expense, though. I'll reword that as "we're still paying full price for the bulb" because make no mistake: Phillips is not going to be selling these for a long-term loss. Hell, I'd rather pay for it myself then have all of society pitch in for my bulb.
:P ) used by businesses to gain a competitive advantage for an inferior product. Subsidies for one type of product necessarily exclude others which will have their own merits - but of course now they are unable to compete with the subsidized price. My primary argument against subsidies is that they are subject to social whims, lobbying, corruption, and other abuses. I simply don't feel that the benefits (and you're right, we do get some benefits) outweigh the costs.
Now on to subsidies themselves. Sure, there are some market distortions that are good - but the point is that the ecosystem in place to subsidize some products over others is just as often (I'd argue that it's more, but I don't have the time to come up with numbers
+1 Disagree
Light Bulb change YOU!
This sig is not paradoxical or ironic.
http://www.lightingprize.org/60watttest.stm
99.3% of initial brightness after 25,000 hours use. (see lumen maintenance)
This is far better than a CFL and better than an incandescent too.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
That is incredible and great.
Doesn't even meet the criteria to win, but wins anyway. Why the fuck even compete when you know GE will win because of cronyism.
LED lights may be cheap to run but they are hard on the eyes. Fluorescent, Sodium Vapor, they all suck. There's nothing like the glow of a incandescent bulb. It's a warmer light. Easier on the eyes too.
Did you read any of the post you are commenting on he said his power company is not subsidizing the $60 Philips led, no electric companies currently are.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
To be fair to GE they don't make much of the crap they sell, they just give another manufacture the specs an put a GE sticker on it. I found this out after my GE water heater crapped out 4 months before the warranty was up and the warranty was through rheem, rheem actually has higher standards for the water heaters they put their stickers on.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
I've used and am using a previous generation Phillips bulb - has the same prongs and yellow exterior. Looks like a bug light bulb. It IS superior to any of the 8 or so other bulbs I've bought. Most of the others were either too dim, had poor color, or were too directional. Some of them were name brand too - I find Lowe's stocks the best selection BTW. This bulb though, it was able to be installed in a vertical torchier lamp just fine unlike any other. The light is warm and it spreads well. Yes, these cost bux - I got no rebates obviously - but they last and last. They are also instant-on without flicker. I'd suggest buying a couple and trying them in various fixtures to see if they are suitable. I have yet top try mine in my porch light but if it works there I'm buying a few - others really sucked in that application.
This new generation apparently uses less power so that's a bonus and yes I will buy some. The lifespan and the much much lower power usage plus the quality of the light makes them perfect. Sadly they will not work in a fixture I've got that's using a 100watt incandescent (I need light dammit) nor will they work in my outdoor floods. I can hardly wait for replacements for those! :-)
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
It really is all about quality control with LED anything. LEDs will essentially last as long as they claim if 1. The LED is made with quality in mind 2. The wiring is done with quality in mind 3. The housing is made with quality in mind Think about it. How many of you have old 1st and 2nd generation NVidia or Radion video cards laying around? I know I do. How many of those video cards have burnt out power indicator LEDs? None of mine do. I have a 1st Generation NVidia card before it was called NVidia it's a VooDoo card and all it's LEDs still function. LEDs will last a long time, maybe even longer than 20 years if the rest of the bulb is built correctly. The problem is these things are made in Chinese sweat shops where all that they care about is how many of these can be made in an hour.
Sorry, but you can't rely on any LED stats from manufacturers. They're all grossly inflated. Don't even bother reading them. Find an independent review, or better yet, see one in person. Most of what you find are what are very dim, blue, spotlights.
I've tried a quite a few. Actually, the only one worth using as more than a reading light has been a Philips model. The 12.5W "AmbientLED" model.
WTF are you people doing over there? I can buy an 80-lumen LED bulb in my local hardware for €13.95 (Ireland).
And I go for the $30 LED bulbs in my closets - the kids don't always turn off the lights and the LEDs don't get hot enough to set anything on fire if they are left on 24/7. Sure, the extra $29.25 seems like a lot, until your house burns down for a stupid reason.
I've bought one or two bulbs on the occaisionaly trip to the home center over the past few years. Now they are starting to go into other applications. So far so good.
I have some now ancient CFLs in my hallway lights - bought soon after they were available. They (GEs) have lasted very nicely. More recent, cheaper ones, well, not so much. I'll keep on buying brand name LEDs for now, and take a pass on the cheap ones.
My finger points to shoddy installation. People using stab connectors or not twisting wires before putting on wire nuts in J-boxes. You can potentially have a whole chain of unreliable connections from the breaker to the end of the branch circuit. The electronics is probably more susceptible to inconsistent currents than incandescent bulbs.
Our recessed lights in our kitchen seems to not like bulbs and have various brands of CFLs fail within a year or two. They originally came with halogen bulbs. But two bulbs have worked for years in a desk lamp.
Really? Poorest man today? You have no idea of the depths of poverty in this world, there are plenty who would disagree with you, had they ever heard of the Internet in the first place.
Even limiting yourself to the first world countries, your claim is hardly true, certainly not for those who want for food. The world is richer, but there are still many poor individuals out there, who would gladly take the life of any decent king from 1500 years ago.
Assuming they're sane, anyway. Mental illness is still a problem.
I bought 2 GE CF bulbs back in the mid-90s, these were the super-bright ones (equivalent, they said with a 100W), and one of them is still going strong as my back porch light.
.. pa-ra-bo-la, pa-ra-bo-la, 2 pi R, 2 pi R, where's your latus rectum, where's your latus rectum, 2 pi R
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/light-bulb-conspiracy/ planned obsolescence rears its ugly head here....
A $60 light bulb ... um no thanks
A well cared for LED "can" last a long time. I'll be willing to bet that the rest of the power electronics will not last as long. Especially based on the short life I have seen out of CFL's and yes even the "good" ones by GE Osram/Sylvania when you use electrolytic capacitors in the ballast you can only expect so much.
Buy the GE bulbs on sale for $1 and know they will not last anywhere near the 8 years the package claims but at that price ... who cares? The difference in energy usage between the LED and a CFL is 1/2 a watt so it would take 80 years to overcome the $59 price difference. When the CFL dies in 2 years look at the price & performance of LED bulbs again.... chances are the performance is only going to go up and the price come down. Are you really going to keep running that LED bulb you bought today if N years from now you can get one twice as bright for the power consumed? So there really isn't much advantage to being an early adopter. Even if you are using incandescent bulbs the cost of lighting your home probably pales in comparison to your heating and air conditioning costs. $60 spent on attic insulation will likely give you bigger returns than one light bulb. Ten bulbs would be $600 ... money that would be better spent on a desuperheater for your ac/heat pump make your ac more efficient and get hot water as an added bonus.
LED bulbs are not "bad" it is just that there are other things that give you so much more return on your investment at present prices.
So anyway good job Phillips I won't be buying your bulb at current prices but there are plenty of people who stink at math that will.
Any word on whether these bulbs are dimmer compatible?
Where genius and insanity become confused true wisdom is found
Let me tell you, I have tested the Philips LED bulb pretty completely and I am *very* impressed with it.
The quality of the light is great.
The color is warm and just what I like.
Works perfectly with not only dimmers, but also X10.
Fits in nearly any fixture.
Creates no excess EFI like CFL does.
Full brightness in less than 1/2 of a second.
Seems like it will last the rated life, unlike most CFL's.
Is as bright as claimed, unlike almost any other LED I tried.
It addresses almost everything I hate about CFL *AND* incandescent bulbs.
When we built out our rec room two years ago, I paid to have the electricians fit it out with "dimmable" LED lighting. Overall, I am happy with the light temperature and eventual cost savings (the incremental cost was many hundreds of dollars for about 10 fixtures).
I am not impressed at all with the level of dimmability these lights can achieve. Their perceived light output can be cut by half, or maybe 2/3. That's probably about a factor of 10 or so in terms of light energy output, but it's nowhere near what I am looking for when I want to soften the room's appearance.
We're getting some ceiling lights put in a couple other rooms tomorrow, so on Monday I asked the electrician ( *very* competent guy) to show me the latest and greatest in dimmable LEDs. There's been essentially no improvement; they are still only nominally dimmable. So I asked him to install incandescents.
Don't compare the little green led to a light the needs to light an entire room.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Now I can quit stealing copper piping and switch to light bulbs!
But it wouldnt happen. If people start using less power, the company will just raise their rates to compensate and actually make more profit. Why would a power company (or any company really) want to save its customers money if it didnt benefit them somehow.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
I can't find that $22 requirement in the rules.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I'm glad to hear that you have access to a different version of Google than I do and are going to find me a rebate on LED bulbs since I've actively looked and my power company (Appalachian Power in Virginia) does not seem to have any interest in providing one as evidenced by the links below. Interestingly, they are willing to at least provide subsidized pricing/rebates for CFLs for the neighboring state of West Virginia but still no subsidy/rebate for LED bulbs.
https://www.appalachianpower.com/save/programs/Virginia.aspx
https://www.appalachianpower.com/global/utilities/lib/docs/save/programs/RetrofitFAQ.pdf
I've had a CFL fry in 3 seconds. And trust me, I've tried a bunch of CFL brands because these are in high ceiling recessed cans, which are a pain to access.
to move to Somalia then. Of course your self-important delusions of adequacy would probably get you killed in less than a day when you try to use your liberty screw over others without society covering your back.
All you have to do is never turn it off and under power it so that very little light comes from it. Neither one of these is practical for most cases.
...totally missed the point. I'm not arguing for or against low efficiency bulbs. I personally go out of my way to use them and maintain a fairly energy efficient household. Hell, if these Phillips bulbs have a warranty anywhere near in line with their claimed life, I'll probably buy a few (and wouldn't mind spending the full $60 on them... I hate changing light bulbs :P ). What I don't like are subsidies in general. You talk about the true cost of oil and coal and I entirely agree - so why can't we objectively talk about the true cost of the LED bulbs? Sixty bucks for a light bulb that will last twenty years and sip a fraction of the power of a CFL? Great!
+1 Disagree
"How many people does it take to change it?"
It takes an army of idiots. I already own 20 or so $6.00 SMD 5050 LED bulbs that I purchased on Ebay over the past couple of years? A fixture with two of LED's and a CFL look great and use about 27 watts total.
I alsu use a Visio LED/LCD TV and an Optoma ML 500 LED based projector which both sip energy.
Glad to know that my tax dollars are subsidising a foreign corporation to make $60 bulbs. Thanks DOE, you just wasted more money than the GSA!
$1 for the CFLs or the LEDs? I was talking about LEDs. Have tried some from Home Depot about the same price range, and found they work, but won't dim down quite as far as the Feit.
Especially when they have no tolerance for dissent or disagreement, as the Democrat party acts in regards to the environment. No matter what, you have to utter their shibboleths, or they run you out.
FTFY
YW
I have all LEDs in my living room now. You can get really good ones on amazon for about $15 with lifetime warranties. The philips one has a normal slightly yellow color which is okay the other ones I have have the pure white color which I like better. There are a lot of options online. You don't need to buy from GE.
The Official Site of 1337 Pwnage
Here are the docs:
http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/us_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/EnduraLED_A19-110726_2.pdf
It's probably due to your crappy electrical grid. Fluorescents don't like constant multiple brownouts and unstable generation. After my old line transformer finally failed, they put in one that was sized for a much larger capacity. I stopped getting obvious brownouts and spikes when the neighbor's air conditioner unit powered up, and I haven't had to replace any CFLs since that time almost 2 years ago. Prior to that, I was losing 3-5 each year. If the utility hadn't subsidized them to be under $1 each, I'd be seriously pissed. My incandescents didn't last too long either. I had also lost two cheap UPS units, which fortunately protected my expensive equipment.
"...the bulb that won a $10 million government contest...and Philips was the only entrant."
I wonder how they won...
-Chris
--an unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys--
I bought a very large home in 2010 . One of the first projects was to replace the 236+ light bulbs with CFLs. Most of them were bright but inefficient halogen bulbs.
There weren't any LEDs with sufficient light output to replace the halogen bulbs. LEDs were immediately ruled out based on light output. Price was not even the main issue. We would have needed 3x as many LED bulbs in order to provide the same amount of light as the halogens. The cost of installing fixtures for 472 extra LED bulbs would have been staggering.
If the lumens are still the same, the costs for 708 LED bulbs at $60 would be $42,480 . For lightbulbs alone ! That's the price of the entire solar system we also installed, before rebates/tax incentives.
I ended up buying 236+ CFLs from 11W to 25W each, at an average of $5 each, for a total of $1150. I had to go to the store many, many times to get them with utility rebates. Even Costco would only sell up to 12 rebated bulbs at a time. Keep in mind most of them were large reflectors (R30, R40).
This was 18 months ago. So far, only one CFL has failed. Some of them are now taking a while to reach full brightness, unfortunately. They used to be instant. I'm still very happy with the power consumption.
Do you have any 20+ year old electronic equipment? Do the LEDs in that equipment still light up? (Probably.)
Not exactly. Many HP generators and other equipment was built with red 7- or 8-segment LEDs. These are burning out. Owners of such equipment make sure to turn them off once the measurement is complete - even though it is often advantageous to keep the test equipment running (it lasts longer and is instantly ready for a measurement.) But LEDs are not like that, they fail.
Yeah well, you can believe anecdotes (and yes, your own experience is just another anecdote), or you can believe reproducible testing. It's one or the other really.
If you like anecdotes: my house has 18 fixed light fittings, and pretty much the first thing I did when I moved in (3 years ago next month) was replace all of them with (basic, supermarket-grade) CFLs. Last night, one of those bulbs failed. It was the first failure since I moved in.
CFLs are supposed to last 7 years, at least that is what the packaging says. I have replaced many of them, long before their 7 years were up. So how does Philips know this will last 20 years? They have only had them around for the last few years, 20 is just a wild guess. Why not just say 50? or 100 ?
"If an incandescent bulb costs you $1.00 to buy, but $10.00 per month to operate, and lasts only one year, and an LED bulb that costs $60 to buy, $1.67 per month to operate, and lasts 20 years, which would you buy? Most people are actually really stupid, and continue to buy the $1 bulbs because they're "cheaper", not realizing the real difference is $121 per year vs. $23 per year. I'm suspecting that you'd be smart enough to eventually decide "the light from this $1 bulb isn't worth the extra $98 per year."
dude your math is horrible and your forecast is no better. I am seeing 10+ years from 130v incandescent bulbs. From the Phillips article--
"It uses only 10 watts of power, meaning saves about $8 per year in electricity if it's used four hours a day. It's expected to last at least 30,000 hours, or 30 times longer than an incandescent. At four hours per day, that's 20 years."
100w bulb uses one cent/hr. The miracle bulb uses .1 cent/hr. 100w bulb on for a month costs 7.2 dollars, the miracle bulb 72 cents. It is going to take awhile to break even.
No they wouldn't have a markedly poorer CRI. These Philips EnduraLEDs have a CRI of at least 80, but that's not very high. 75-80 is standard among all high power LEDs (Cree XRE, XPE, XPG, Philips Rebel, etc.)
All LEDs have the problem of a large spike in the blue wavelengths, a drop off, then a lower hill again. It's much less of a spike in warm white. Note that esp. cool-white (5000K and higher) is not very good to differentiate various colours. For use outside all greens become one green blob, yellow/brown disappear and this results in a loss of depth perception.
I tested these issues for bicycle use and found neutral white of ca. 4000-4500K to be the best. See: http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests/verlichting/experimenten/index_nl.html
Within the house you encounter other colours and neutral white is also far better than cool white. I modified LED torches/flashlights which are normally cool white with neutral white LEDs and it was a huge improvement.
Another issue is that lower colour temperatures (esp. more red) are easier on the eyes. This is also a reason why people actually like warm white.
Cool white is harsher, gives more eye strain therefore not a good idea for environments you spend a lot of time in.
Someone said about 5000-5500K CFLs:
Except that it's not. It's a lower temp. but due to the blue spike it's not the same as what you experience in sunlight, see above about disappearing colours and the blue spike...
There are no tax subsidizes for this bulb.
Wrong bulb. You are talking about the 12W Phillips AmbientLED bulb. The L Prize bulb is newer / better and won't be sold until April 22nd.
Sorry dude, the Democrats are open to actual and genuine ideas. Republicans are open to only one idea. Doing nothing. Or rather, opposing doing anything.
Don't confuse rejecting that with an opposition to real ideas.
There are various "green" campaigns going on in Australia where the government pays for a person to come to your house, survey your energy usage, provide you with a proposal for better energy use and appliances (mostly they advise to switch to instant gas for hot water or solar hot water units and tell you how many years your hot water cylinder probably has left and advise on the best potential solutions for heating / cooling for your house) and they come back 1 or 2 weeks later with fluorescent bulbs to replace your with incandescent bulbs.
http://www.greenproject.com.au/terms--conditions/index.html
You've got this precisely backwards. Using an incandescent bulb is a short-sighted decision based on ignoring the long-term consequences of global warming.
Or, heck, the long-term consequences of your electrical bill being twice as high. (I exaggerate, but the savings are noticeable.)
I always put energy-efficient bulbs in my closets (but I look for the absolute cheapest ones available) ... because multiple people in my household tend to turn them on and shut the closet door.
A 40 W bulb left on for 24 hours uses about 1 kW-hr, so about $0.12 or so depending on where you life. Doesn't take too many times for the switch to CFL to pay for itself, and it makes me less frustrated with my family.
Besides, I got these CFLs for about $1 each. Sure they take forever to warm up and have a weird green color, but who cares? It's a closet!
This lightbulb would outlast:
Just about anything that isn't either a family heirloom or a rock too big too move.
that Philips was the only entrant, and was the 'winner' by default?
V for Vendetta: People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.
Funny how they advertise 20 years but promise only 3.
At a $60 price tag, that doesn't boost my confidence in their product. If they are going to claim 20 years, they should have a warranty of at least between 10 and 15 years.
In many jurisdictions, you will find that statuary warranty laws mean that a lamp failing after just 3-4 years can be replaced free regardless of manufacturer warranty.
In my jurisdiction (AU) as well as others (eg EU), law mandates that a device should last as long as is reasonably expected and advertised. If they advertise it as lasting 20y but it fails after 5, they're going to find consumer agencies breathing down their backs to replace, no matter what the official warranty is.
Sparks:Gadget:Beer Maker
The bulb, which supposedly lasts 20 years (...)
Here in France, we've had 'smart' counters for more than 20 years. I have one: indeed, it is capable to announce when peak electricity will cost you more, in advance, and with appropriate settings will also cancel non-immediately-necessary appliances such as the washing machine or whatever.
This has perfectly worked for 20 years.
Last year, the counter broke. Within days the monopoly, national company came and changed it with a more recent model, that only announces peak tariffs but doesn't allow anymore to adjust appliances (lack of relay command).
I wrote the company, saying this was a breach of contract. The case lasted *one year and a half*. They only replied to legal, costly mails (any phone discussion clearly was only targeted to calm me without any action, including promises in the most clear and convincing way that were just trashed).
As reactions I successively received the manual of my *previous* counter, then the manual of the currently existing non-peak capable counter (that I never had), then a letter from a director announcing she was aware of pissing me off and gave me a €20 rebate on my next bill -some 10% of what cancelling the automation capability has already costed me in one single year.
I never got back the capacity to control appliances as stated in my contract (which incidentally was unilaterally updated in the meanwhile).
In the end I wrote the CO, congratulating him for his shareholder efficiency (I received a neutral, secretary-written bland reply).
All in all, I renounced.
Summary: even with a partly state-controlled company that once was ordered to do it, building a smart grid will eventually be considered wasting shareholder money, and the minuscule end-user will be just plainly ignored when this smart-but-costly activity will be abandoned.
Yes: abandoned, in France.
Herve S.
If you tell me who your power company is, I will attempt to show you that you are wrong about the rebates available to you. Before you answer too quickly, consider that many rebates are available from places other than your one power company. My CFL rebates, for instance, were from some company in Seattle, but I live in Wisconsin. Why? I don't know. Nevertheless, I still bet your power company has some kinds of programs, because I've never heard of one that doesn't. But you can show me my first, by telling me what company supplies your electricity, and I will do the leg work of googling "[company name] + rebate".
British Gas.
I look forward to your findings.
If you have enclosed light fixtures, like those often found on kitchen ceilings, is there an alternative to incandescent bulbs?
My enclosed kitchen light fixtures take three 60-watt bulbs. I replaced them with "equivalent" CFL bulbs. Many have writing on the package saying they are not for use in enclosed fixtures but I specifically purchase ones that do not have that disclaimer. Several different brands. They all kind of sag in there like something in the base of the bulb is melting and at least 1 burns out every 4 months.
I notice that the LED bulbs all have that not for use in enclosed fixtures disclaimer too. So it seems both CFL and LED have problems with heat build up in enclosed spaces. If you have to replace your lighting fixtures then the initial cost of switching is even greater than most people realize. In the long run it is probably still worth it but... ouch!
Ah, man, you got me! Here's one list of places which have LED bulb rebates, and even though you are surrounded by rebates, you live in an island without one (on that page, anyway). You'd have to fall back onto rebates available to the general public, or wait for your company to introduce a program.
Golly, sorry, instead of getting a rebate on LED bulbs, you have to settle for completely free CFL bulbs.
What is your house made of, flash paper?
Where can I get my $38 rebate form?
Both Lowe and Home Depot stores in my area (suburban DC) have regular sales on a $9 standard pear-shaped E26 LED bulbs like those ones: http://slickdeals.net/forums/attachment.php?s=31e54508f1333ca3124e8f09193b7d10&attachmentid=1150528&d=1334012983 Even when there's no sale, there's a selection of LED bulbs in mid-$20 to mid-$30 price range. What is so novel about this one?
You can buy a four-pack on Amazon for $104 or so.
What colour will the light be after 20 years of fly shit?
We have changed some light bulbs at the most usage areas. So far, I am happy with energy saved but most importantly my picky wife likes the color...phew..
So, here is what we got our. I just got one and it is cheaper than HomeDepot. (Dont have to wait :))
http://www.agreensupply.com/philips-enduraled-tm-dimmable-60w-replacement-10w-a19-led-light-bulb-winner-of-l-prize-enduraled-10w-a19-led-winner-of-the-l-prize/
Cheers!
Wow! We get a whole $10 off per led bulb. CFLs get a rebate of 50%. Not going to play in Iowa. However, the same utility is replacing the streetlights with LED bulbs. I don't see that saving much money or energy.
"He's lost in a 'floyd hole"
Actually, on the page you linked, they advertise a six year warranty:
> The Philips EnduraLED meets or exceeds these specifications with 806 lumens, 2700K, a CRI of 80 and a 6 year warranty.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
No adult in any first world country wants for food except out of choice or mental defect.
The poorest man has access to modern medicine, sanitation, abundant calories (obesity is the plague of the poor, where is used to be the caprice of the rich), and worldwide communication networks.
A family of four on welfare and food stamps receives about $1000 a month. Convert that to silver or gold, then look back at the treasuries of those ancient kings and lords. The median income in my own home state would buy more silver than the royal family of England had in its coffers in 1200AD.
I'm sure that poor people would jump at the opportunity to have shorter lives, yet be important and POWERFUL. That was the only real advantage to being a King. You had the power to force people to do what you wanted. And, in fact, that is exactly what made those societies so poor. The restraints placed upon governments upon the founding of the US, and after the Civil War allowed freedom to ring, and the people to become rich. So rich that the poorest man was richer than ancient kings.
As with so many things in life, one size does not fit all.
Lighting costs depend on a lot of things. Where you live, what you pay for electricity, and how you use the light. I get very cheap electrons from a local co-op, $0.11544/kWh during the summer. But I know others around the country and globe pay $0.40/kWh or more! That's $0.04 cents per hour to run the bulb. If you use the bulb as an outside security light, running it from dusk to dawn year round, that averages to 12 hours per day, or $0.48 per day, or $14.40 per month. It's also 4,380 hours of usage per year, which is a higher lifetime than most incandescent bulbs are rated for. And you shouldn't ignore one of the hidden costs, which is that of replacement. If the bulb is inconveniently located at the top of a pole, it requires a ladder to change. Ladders carry a significant risk of injury: if you climb one ladder every 20 years instead of climbing it three times every year, you dramatically reduce your exposure to a potentially costly accident. If the light's in a ceiling fixture, the chances are the average homeowner will stand on a chair to change it, sometimes a swivel chair, and there's another likely candidate for a slip and fall.
If you're seeing 10 years of life from a rerated bulb (running a 130V bulb at 120VAC), then you're probably using it about one hour a day, and you're probably not switching it on and off very frequently, which excludes your bulb from the set of prime targets for saving energy. And no, an LED wouldn't be your best choice. When it finally burns out and comes time to replace it, a CFL would probably work just as well for you, and at $4.00 instead of $60.00, it would be your wisest investment. It'll cost you a total of $1.10 per year and you won't have to change it for over 27 years. (You probably haven't considered the additional inefficiency of running the bulb at a lower voltage, at it reduces the light output. The CFL would be brighter.)
100w bulb uses one cent/hr. The miracle bulb uses .1 cent/hr. 100w bulb on for a month costs 7.2 dollars, the miracle bulb 72 cents. It is going to take awhile to break even.
If you're using them one hour a day, and pay $0.10/kWh, it would take 20 years to break even, which I totally agree wouldn't be worth it. But if you're burning them 4 hours per day, those 100W incandescents will cost you $16/year and require changing every 8 months, while the LEDs will cost $4.38 per year, with a 20 year lifetime. Your ROI happens in under 4 years. And if your electric rates are $0.40/kWh, as they are in the UK, the ROI comes in at one year. An Englishman will pay $59.68/year for 4 hour daily usage of a 100W incandescent, $15.77 for a CFL, and $8.76 for the LED.
Funny thing, though. 26W CFL lamps have almost exactly the same cost structure as 10W LED lamps. They're slightly worse, in that the shorter service lifetimes require higher costs due to the more frequent bulb changes, and they perform poorer in cold weather, making them sometimes unsuitable outdoors in cold climates. At $0.10/kWh, operationally the annual cost to run them is virtually identical to the LED. But raise the price of electricity to European rates, and the LEDs are much more economical.
John
That may be so where you live, but here in New Zealand my experience with Philips CFLs has been terrible (see my comment in this thread).
Mind you we do use 230V here so perhaps they never designed for that aspect properly.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Those weren't 7-segment LEDs. those were panaplexes (neon gas discharge, basically a flat envelope 7-segment nixie tube).
You are going too far back in time. I used those and other tubes in my younger days. But what I'm talking about here is the large red 7-segment (+dot) LEDs that grace front panels of so many HP test sets. I have a bunch right here. Perhaps a modern LED like that would be OK, but as things are units made a couple decades ago are vulnerable to failures of those LEDs. Static drive is one thing, but when they are multiplexed and driven at higher pulse current then they degrade faster.
Even a standard plain vanilla green LED from 1980s is not an exception. I personally put the new one into my own project. Five years later it was yellow. And I know that I haven't overdriven it - the LED was just to indicate that the device is on.
You found specs. For the wrong product.
L-price series is CRI 93, 2700K, 88lm/W.
Anyway you should watch "The Light Bulb Conspiracy 2010"
Recipes for USA bankrupt - http://tinypaste.com/0d66f dd = dollar deluge (printed in the infinity)
So, how much do the energy a normal light bulb would consume during those 20 years cost?
Exactly.
And how much do x amount of CFLs cost if you don't buy the kind which actually can handle lots of on and off switches cost (especially if put in a place such as the bath room?)
Exactly.
The only issue is that they will become better and cheaper and do you still want this one in 20 years?
I've so far bought 7 LED lamps if nothing else to support the companies researching them (all Toshiba.)
(4 GU5.3 spots (but how much electricity does the IKEA transformer use?) "Made in China" 6.7 watt, 25 degree, 1250 candelas = 186 lumen? 3000K, to cold light for my likening. LDRA0730MU5EUD
3 E27, "Made in Japan" 8.4 watt, 600 lumen, 2700K, better color temp. LDAC0827E7EU)
(Before writing this I was sure both packages read the same color temp but I've thought the light has been pretty different. Guess this explains it. I though that maybe the Made in China one used worse diodes or something.)
A year or two ago I bought two Phillips dimmable R30 CFL's. Both died within a month. There was a recall but mine weren't included.
"We'll replace every bulb in your house for new 20-year lasting LED bulbs and replace them for free...in return for buying a Tesla" - you could probably power the car from the electricity saved in light bulbs!
You seem to be ignoring that his post was a response to someone else's anecdotal evidence. Fallacies don't apply only to those on the other side of your argument.
http://www.lightingprize.org/60watttest.stm
(Shamelessly posted here at the top to make it easier to find.)
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
I linked to the L-Prize test data above, but here it is again: http://www.lightingprize.org/60watttest.stm .
These are very tough, long-lasting bulbs with good performance and durability verified by extensive outside lab and field testing. The lifespan rating should likely be much higher than they put on the box, too.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
When my neighbor keeps on using a low-efficiency incandescent bulb, they're putting more CO2 in the atmosphere, because where I live, the source of energy is virtually all fossil fuels. That means that my kids and grandkids are subsidizing my neighbor
If you bother to do a little research, you'll find that your kids produce a damn sight more CO2 than your neighbor's incandescent lightbulb.
just how they test a lightbulb to verify it actually lasts 20 years--without spending 20 years testing a bunch of them.
I'm aware that stress tests can be devised to (supposedly) simulate the accelerated passage of time, but just what do those tests involve? I suspect:
1) Increased voltage and/or current. This will alter the conditions away from reality by increasing acute stress on the bulb, and favoring highly conductive substances that might be less durable, long-term. Example (using a non-LED bulb): Gold is a poorer conductor than iron, but gold doesn't rust. More electricity will favor iron, since it can take more heat without melting, and will produce less heat, overall. Iron tarnishes easily, though, such that any imperfection of the vacuum will result in a shortened lifespan, when compared with gold. (There are reasons why the data media of the Voyager spacecraft were made of gold...)
2) Extra-severe, fast-paced (simulated) weather conditions. Rapid changes in severe temperatures (i.e. very hot to very cold) will favor elasticity over other forms of durability. Therefore, the bulbs with more pliable/expandable exteriors (and interiors, to a lesser degree) will last longer during the stress test. However, there's no guarantee that those same materials will, say, oxidize slower, react better to the presence of hand oils (which are very bad for typical light bulbs), etc. Also, moisture tests (fog, rain, etc.) will favor exteriors made out of non-rusting metals (for the contacts, at least), and that will have basically the opposite effect from what the inner components will experience: the outside of the bulb needs to be sturdy, so that it won't warp over time or have problems if it gets accidentally bumped. (For $60, it should darn well tolerate a light thrashing...) If the outside is made of softer, non-tarnishing metals, it will cause warping, which could destroy the seals between the outside and the inside. Also, it might eventually warp to a degree, such that it can't make good contact with the power source.
I'm sure there are more items that belong on the above list, and I'm also sure that there's plenty I don't know about the topic; but given how we were promised longer life from compact halogen bulbs--that actually turned out to be at least as flimsy as traditional incandescent ones (and put more strain on the power plants, besides)--I think there's every reason to be skeptical about trusting that a fancy new $60 light bulb will last such a long time as 20 years. Personally, I'm inclined to call the claim B.S. and be done with it.
Electronic circuits hate two things: heat, and thermal cycling. I was at Home Depot this morning where they had a LED lamp displayed inside an aluminum reflector, and the heat sink was too hot to keep my hand on (a good guide for comparison). It is better to buy lamps that have the power supply separate from the LEDs, and even better to have the power supply a standard one you can replace separately when needed. Keep them cool! Someday the electrolytics will dry out.
About warranties: if they gave a 20 year warranty to the original purchaser with the sales slip, they would get 0.1% returns over the 20 years, and by then they could hand you a $5 replacement bulb. Of course I'd be one of the 0.1%, if any burned out.