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The Math Formula That Lead To the Financial Crash

New submitter jools33 writes "The BBC has a fascinating story about how a mathematical formula revolutionized the world of finance — and ultimately could have been responsible for its downfall. The Black-Scholes mathematical model, introduced in the '70s, opened up the world of options, futures, and derivatives trading in a way that nothing before or since has accomplished. Its phenomenal success and widespread adoption lead to Myron Scholes winning a Nobel prize in economics. Yet the widespread adoption of the model may have been responsible for the financial crisis of the past few years. It's interesting to ponder how algorithms and formulas that we work on today could fundamentally influence humanity's future."

248 of 371 comments (clear)

  1. economics ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nobel prize in economics.

    that's Nobel prize in pseudo-science.

    1. Re:economics ? by PCM2 · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's worth pointing out that the "Nobel Prize in Economics" was not one of the original six prizes founded by Alfred Nobel. It is a separate award, which was invented by the Swedish central bank in 1968. Although it is presented along with the Nobel prizes, it is not technically a Nobel itself.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    2. Re:economics ? by polar+red · · Score: 5, Funny

      So that makes it fake-Nobel in pseudo-science.

      --
      Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
    3. Re:economics ? by zr · · Score: 2

      why funny? i'd propose insightful if it wasn't obvious (no offense to polar red!)

    4. Re:economics ? by ScentCone · · Score: 2

      it is not technically a Nobel itself

      I think it's safe to say that many of the actual Nobel prizes of late should also not be thought of as genuine.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    5. Re:economics ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Jokes get less funny as you explain them, but the reason that it was modded funny is because the point of the reply was distilled into a simplistic argument.

      Consider the following joke:
      "Eat your vegetables, people in Africa do not have vegetables"
      "In Africa, it is a problem of distribution; the warlords eat all of the food"
      "Warlords eat their vegetables"

      The first line is Insightful, the second is Informative, the third is humorous. They are all true, and could all be modded insightful or informative, but it is the delivery that makes it funny.

    6. Re:economics ? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except usually none of that is anywhere close to reality unless market participants agree to listen to economists.

      Development of stable self-fulfilling prophecies may qualify as engineering or art but that's definitely not science.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    7. Re:economics ? by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      Nobel Prize for Drone Warfare? :-)

      "Drone Warfare is Peace!"

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    8. Re:economics ? by PCM2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Posts like this one make me think the /. coders should come up with an "Autism spectrum" filter for posts. Dial it to where you need it.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    9. Re:economics ? by MickLinux · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The complexity of the system largel invalidates the scientific method's assumptions, thus greatly limiting the applicability of the reasoning. That is why, for sufficiently complex systems such as economics, psychology, sociology, or theology, other assumptions must be used. That doesn't emean that those who study such things are irrational. It just means that the tools and judgement of results must be different. Alchemy was once also at such a stage-- but today it has advanced to a science(except at the University of Utah).

      --
      Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
    10. Re:economics ? by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2

      Yes.

      Pity it's just us, in the apartment block, that will hear the approaching buzz....

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    11. Re:economics ? by polar+red · · Score: 1

      from wikipedia : science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe. predictions ? hardly. explanations ? you've got to be kidding.

      --
      Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
    12. Re:economics ? by Kergan · · Score: 1

      Nobel prize in economics.

      that's Nobel prize in pseudo-science.

      Agreed. But you might want to check recent developments introduced by outcasts.

      Steve Keen's research, in particular, is by no means pseudo-science. He teaches finance in Sydney, and he's mostly known throughout the profession for his book, titled "Debunking Economics". His reasoning and methodology are mostly impeccable (my understanding is he was an engineering before he looked into economics).

      He has a YouTube channel where he posted his lectures from earlier this year. Highly recommended if you've a few evenings to spare. The first 6 or 7 are about why economics is shite; the later ones are about building new models from the ground up.

      http://youtube.com/profstevekeen

      And a blog:

      http://debtdeflation.com/blogs/

    13. Re:economics ? by Ryanrule · · Score: 1
    14. Re:economics ? by srussia · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That is why, for sufficiently complex systems such as economics, psychology, sociology, or theology, other assumptions must be used.

      You forgot climatology and cosmology. Or are the objects of these "sciences" not sufficiently complex?

      --
      Set your phasers on "funky"!
    15. Re:economics ? by marnues · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think we need to be more specific. It's not the complexity of the system (or else there is no interesting science), it's the inability to test hypotheses that makes economics a dubious science. But the same is true for many other disciplines (climate science, astrophysics, social sciences, etc). For me, the difference is that economics is mostly the science of human interaction, which much like biology turns political before most people have even heard the science. It is unfortunate to see it turn political so quickly on Slashdot, the place where science should always be heard first.

    16. Re:economics ? by marnues · · Score: 1

      Also from wikipedia - In economics, more precisely in contract theory, signalling (or signaling: see American and British English differences) is the idea that one party (termed the agent) credibly conveys some information about itself to another party (the principal). For me, you are signaling that the science of human interaction scares you. It scares most people. It probably scares me in ways that I don't recognize.

    17. Re:economics ? by dkf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You forgot climatology and cosmology. Or are the objects of these "sciences" not sufficiently complex?

      They don't really alter their fundamental behavior as a consequence of you publishing your theory. The problem with the human sciences is that humans read the discoveries and change what they're doing because of them. By comparison, large scale physical systems (the climate, the cosmos) don't give a fig what we think about them; even those changes that we can effect will not fundamentally alter the science itself.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    18. Re:economics ? by srussia · · Score: 1

      The problem with the human sciences is that humans read the discoveries and change what they're doing because of them. By comparison, large scale physical systems (the climate, the cosmos) don't give a fig what we think about them

      "Large-scale" is a bit of a weasel word here. The "observer effect" has famously been (aprioristically) posited to hold in all empirical sciences. No need to publish to affect the system being studied ;-).

      I think the true dichotomy between sciences is their aprioristic or empirical nature, with the latter being more akin to reverse engineering physical reality. Einstein had an inkling about this (for a sufficiently materialistic concept of "reality"):

      "As far as the theorems of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."

      --
      Set your phasers on "funky"!
    19. Re:economics ? by spongman · · Score: 1

      Development of stable self-fulfilling prophecies

      ok, i guess the assumption here is that in order to be scientific the observer has to be completely impartial?

      well, that rules out biology as a science. oh, and quantum physics.

    20. Re:economics ? by spongman · · Score: 1

      under certain interpretations.

    21. Re:economics ? by spongman · · Score: 1

      pfft. Werner Karl Heisenberg.

    22. Re:economics ? by gadget+junkie · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I may agree that "inability to test hypotheses" is part of the problem, but there a wider issue here: a "political" inability to assess if the price of complexity is less than the advantage it does.
      There's an example here pertaining the US. The Glass-Steagall Act, promulgated after the 1929 financial crisis, had a fundamental assumption, which can be broadly stated like this: "while financial markets are essential to an efficient allocation of financial resources, it must be kept by law separated fromthe mechanism of transmission of monetary policy to the real economy. It ensues that no economic player must be allowed to participate in both systems, either as principal or agent"
      . Fast forward to 1987, and the the president of the federal reserve, Alan Greenspan, urges a repeal of the law. what did he know that was unknown in the thirties? why, nothing: he was only convinced that advances in law, mathematics, economy had rendered the safeguards obsolete.
      Guess what? future contracts were known in Roman times, and the first financial contract I've seen printed is in cuneiform on a tablet, circa 2.000 B.C; the only significant innovations in banking since the Hammurabi code had been the supervision of the banking system, including the obligation on the banks to actually have some equity money on the balance sheet, and.... the Glass Steagall act.

      coming back to the topic, the impact of the Black and Scholes formula was not only on the ability to "price" an option, assessing an hypotetical fair value, but on the fact that it provided a toll for big financial houses to "hedge" their exposure dynamically, therein being able to actively propose derivative trades to clients instead of matching opposite client's views. The market expanded greatly, but so did the dependence of the assumptions of the models being right: continuous market access, infinite liquidity, both on the long and the short side. etc.

      Lo and behold, everybody and his uncle played derivatives (Enron anyone? an electric utility, a business slightly less boring than watching grass grow, going belly up?!?!), and it has been impossible to separate the impact of the disaster on the financial markets and on the real economy.
      Think about this: when Long term capital went bust, if you were a shopkeeper in Illinois you had a more than 50% chance of not knowing about it, let alone feeling the heat of the aftermath; now shopkeepers tremble at the sight of the Wall Street Journal.

      --
      "If a boss demands loyalty, give him integrity. But if he demands integrity, give him loyalty." (John Boyd, 1927-1997)
    23. Re:economics ? by u38cg · · Score: 2

      This is a common refrain. Yet economics is a hard, hard, science - why else do we understand it so badly? Newtons invented calculus and a few mere centuries later we built atom bombs and mapped out the history of the universe nanoseconds after its birth. Yet for all the history of human commerce, we barely understand a subject that affects all of us, every single day.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    24. Re:economics ? by rmdingler · · Score: 1

      Let's say one recognizes any art can be mastered down to a science...does it not then become an issue of 'in the eye of the beholder' regarding societal importance? The original categories for awards were chosen by a Swedish armaments inventor attempting to mitigate his Oppenheimerian legacy. If reports of his premature demise were made 120 years later, perhaps there'd be a category in computer science....another 120 years henceforth and perhaps it's AI. Money matters in the "Wolf! right here and now!" Don't delude yourself. Or would it be wiser to leave the world's economic policies to the mouth breathers instead of the Big Bang Bunch?

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    25. Re:economics ? by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      No, in order to be scientific, the validity of conclusion must not depend on anyone being aware of it.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    26. Re:economics ? by mhajicek · · Score: 1

      You could pay for it by televising it.

  2. Don't blame math by koan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It was human stupidity and greed.

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    1. Re:Don't blame math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, here I was thinking it was because banks lent lots of money to people and countries who couldn't afford it, then acted surprised when they didn't get it back again. Not it turns out it was Math all along. Damn you, Math!

    2. Re:Don't blame math by nickleaton · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Primarily. However, the real blame doesn't lie with the banks, it lies with governments. It is lending as you say, but its governments borrowing and lying about their borrowing. The main method, and the sums involved are huge, and they are unfunded pensions liabilities. Take the money up front and spend it. Then rely on future taxpayers to pay the bills. Just like in the US and the subprime mortgages, its easy or no payouts up front, but lots of money flowing in. Then it tips. All back end loaded. Now if you hide the debts off the books, like Bernie Maddoff, for the same reason as Bernie, ... In the UK they are 12-13 times geared. Trying getting a mortgage on that basis. Particularly if you have large outgoings. Defense, roads, health, police, legal system, politicians, ...

    3. Re:Don't blame math by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It was human stupidity and greed.

      At least the stupidity part is shared with the slashdot headline. It should be "led" (verb, past tense), not "lead" (noun, heavy metal / verb, present tense).

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    4. Re:Don't blame math by swalve · · Score: 5, Informative

      It wasn't even just that, it was that they made the mistake of assuming that the higher interest they were getting from the risky loans was pure profit, instead of a hedge against the higher risk. If my portfolio of loans has a 10% chance of not being paid back, I would have to charge at least 10% interest to break even. They did that, but they booked and distributed the profit before the loans started to fail. It was basically a gross profit versus net profit mistake.

      Then there was the failure of the CDS market. Companies made investments, then bought insurance policies to hedge their losses on the loans. But when the loans started to fail, the CDS/hedge couldn't be paid back (cough AIG cough) and they were fucked. I think that will eventually come out as being the ultimate failure- too many layers of reinsurance.

    5. Re:Don't blame math by repapetilto · · Score: 1

      This is a pretty good anaylsis. All these people saying "its the banks", "it's the governments", "its human greed" are not contributing anything worthwhile. Thanks.

    6. Re:Don't blame math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The real problem is that the "solution" - bailing out of the banks by the governments that were the source of the problem, is no real solution. It creates a delay. And while a delay was certainly necessary once they let it become as bad as it became, it will just repeat. A lot of Hedge funds are going to become rich - again.

      Solving the problem would take a prolonged crash that lasts - well lasts until the system rebalances. That sounds cute in theory but in practice it means that it must last until the baby boomer retirees (a big portion of them) are dead. It also means Obama and the democrats have chosen very close to the worst moment in the nation's history for their national healthcare. It will be a disaster much sooner than even the worst of the republicans projected. It will become a disaster in the next 3 years.

      And nobody can really do anything at this point - well I guess baby boomers could commit suicide in large numbers but ... - it's like watching a ship about to crash from the top of it's deck. There's nothing to do but watch. If you're a hedge fund manager you play a few games betting on the ship crashing while the captain assures everyone everything's fine and the ship is unsinkable.

      This situation also means the real crash hasn't come yet. It will happen not this year but by the end of next year.

    7. Re:Don't blame math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's half the problem. The other is that poor mortgages were packaged into CDOs. This in itself was OK, but the unsaleable bottom tranches of the CDOs were then repackaged into new CDOs. These should have been rated as entirely high risk (being a collection of mortgages that, due to the first CDO, were almost guaranteed to fail) but gullible ratings agencies still gave the top tranche a top rating. So investors worldwide were buying crap believing it to be a low risk investment.

    8. Re:Don't blame math by Auroch · · Score: 1

      It was human stupidity and greed.

      Incorrect. Human stupidity and greed have been around for a long time, and if they were the leading factor, then we'd have a financial crash every few minutes (seconds?).

      Human greed may have been the finger that pushed the button(s), but there was an entire system that was set up based on a series of "tools", including some fancy algorithms.

      --
      Quartz Extreme and Core Image. Are there any other real reasons to spend all that money on generic hardware?
    9. Re:Don't blame math by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      But it's proven now that you cannot only count on human being stupid and greedy, you can actually calculate it.

      The system works...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    10. Re:Don't blame math by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not only that, but it also sends a very, very dangerous message to the banks: Playing risky with high stakes is the way to go. If you win, lots of money for you. If you lose, you get bailed out.

      That's NOT a sustainable business model. Impending crash notwithstanding, this idiocy alone would already suffice to send the economy down the drain.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re:Don't blame math by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Empathy is 100% responsible for the crash. ... It's when those with empathy are given power... that's when feel-good-everyone-can-afford-what-they-can't-afford bubbles happen.

      Riiight, because Wall Street traders are known for their empathy above all other qualities.

      What color is the sky on your planet?

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    12. Re:Don't blame math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Making a statement does not mean it's fact, prove your point.

    13. Re:Don't blame math by gutnor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If I see that you are hungry and I sell you food for a profit, you call that empathy ? Or is it only when my business failed because I didn't calculate my margin properly, that you blame empathy ?

      Bankers thought they could make money off people with no money using their clever formula. They were wrong. Some of them maybe thought they were making the world a better place (empathy), but at the end of the day they were in it to make a profit.

    14. Re:Don't blame math by Sir_Sri · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except that it's banks making the decisions, and governments writing rules that allow them to do various things, and create environments that cause problems.

      Human greed always contributes. It is both what drives our economy forward, and causes it to run into a wall occasionally. We always want something just out of reach. It gives us something to work for, but it also means that if you overestimate, even by a few percent you can cause a 'bust'. When the people doing this are controlling (not necessarily owning, just controlling) 80% of the countries wealth with a relatively small handful of people you can see where this goes badly.

      To use the example given, if there's a 10% chance of loans not being paid back, but for the last 5 years I've only had a 3% default rate rather than 10, either

      1.The 10% chance of failure estimate is wrong,
      2. this is an effect that's longer than 5 years or
      3. I should be allowed to change how I count the difference. (the lag effect is long enough I should be able to do something else with the money rather than just sit on it for another 5 years sort of thing)

      Enter the government, who, by the way, is largely run by people who have money, and as an institution cares very much about investment returns and interest rates, and they look at your problem. The government probably set the 5 year threshold, it may not have any connection to anything that matters, but it seemed like a good number when someone thought it up. It's possible my estimate is wrong, or worse, the government approved estimation technique is wrong, which means everyones estimate is wrong. Lastly, the government will change how that money can be counted, and what I can do with it. This last point is really the most insidious. Politicians will want to write rules that advantage them when they leave government, and that will advantage their investment portfolios. That means going along with changing how risks are counted, or how to handle the difference between calculated and actual risk in a way that will most benefit themselves personally when they leave. Whatever looks like it will help the bottom line the most right now. And that is very bad policy.

      After that, the whole situation is exacerbated by other government policies which aren't directly applicable to what we just talked about. Wealth distribution that has become less equal pushes more money into a smaller number of hands, meaning when they make mistakes they take a larger chunk of the economy with them. The government has written rules (about unions, trade, taxes etc.) that significantly impact wealth distribution.

      The government also controls the currency supply, and acts as the insurer of last resort, if it feels like it. Currency supply isn't as much of an issue in this recession compared to the great depression (where the gold standard exacerbated the problem for those still on it). The government has mostly managed to avoid a deflationary spiral, although that's about the only good thing you can say, and it's not even that strong a statement. But the insurer of last resort, if it feels like it is a serious problem. When a company (bank or otherwise) starts to spiral out of control, especially with the CDS situation where there was essentially a bank run, how quickly the government moves to insure banks, how much it's willing to insure etc all can determine how bad the crash is.

      If this sounds a lot like the great depression, it's because it is. Other than the gold standard issue* basically all of the same principles and problems and theories apply. There are substantial differences in specific, but: massive overburdening debt on consumers and banks, check. Significant wealth inequality, check. "Austrians" (the economic school of thought) claiming too much money supply previously, check. The same group claiming government policies to help were counter productive, check. Excess production capacity, (now largely driven by production in china rather than electrification and motorization) chec

    15. Re:Don't blame math by cheaphomemadeacid · · Score: 1

      It was human stupidity and greed, that wasn't accounted for in the formula. fixed it for you

    16. Re:Don't blame math by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      I actually don't see it as either; I see it as typing a quick reply on a messageboard, making a typo, and not proofreading. It's either laziness, ignorance, or stupidity, and it's moronic to assume you know which one it is. Unless, of course, you're the one who made the error, then you probably know very well which of those was the cause.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    17. Re:Don't blame math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There were laws in place to curtail what happened, you can thank Alan Greenspan, Bob Rubin, and Larry Sommers in part for the current financial meltdown.
      Of couse there's more to it and you can Google the rest.
      Start with PBS Glass Stegall act and fllow up with the 1990's derivitve bail out.

    18. Re:Don't blame math by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      On my planet, those who achieve ascent to power in government, and seek to act on their empathy, bail out Wall Street to save the little people.

      And yes, they are all deluded. Except for Wall Street. Mostly.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    19. Re:Don't blame math by rickb928 · · Score: 2

      The bankers here did just fine. Sorry it didn't work out for them on your planet.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    20. Re:Don't blame math by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Wow. Way to completely miss the point. Wall street traders are not responsible. They are greedy. They have always been greedy. It's their role in this game. It's not what leads to disasters. It's the other players in this game (who do have the empathy) who only occasionally gain power and who always cause disasters when they do.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    21. Re:Don't blame math by superwiz · · Score: 1

      You want me to prove that greed has always been with us? Or that when one factor remains constant and yet the outcomes change, the other factors must be to blame?

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    22. Re:Don't blame math by ultranova · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It was human stupidity and greed.

      It was the greedy preying on the stupid to the detriment of the rest of us. But an unchained wolf will hunt when it sees food, and so will a sociopathic CEO. The blame lies with those who let them run free in the first place by deregulating the financial sector, not on animals following their instincts.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    23. Re:Don't blame math by tqk · · Score: 4, Interesting

      These should have been rated as entirely high risk (being a collection of mortgages that, due to the first CDO, were almost guaranteed to fail) but gullible ratings agencies still gave the top tranche a top rating. So investors worldwide were buying crap believing it to be a low risk investment.

      The ratings agencies weren't gullible. They were in on it too. They were paid for their ratings by the people asking for the ratings. If they'd done their jobs and rated them poor, those buying the ratings would go elsewhere for them.

      The ratings agencies ought to be sort of like Consumer Reports. Instead, they are just another business out to make a quick buck like everyone else. Investors should have seen this coming, but no-one thinks long-term investing anymore. Fundamentals? What are those?

      I agree with those above who say it hasn't finished yet. The bailouts just bought the Too Big To Fails some time. They should have been allowed to fail, but politicians couldn't accept that when their cushy jobs were on the line.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    24. Re:Don't blame math by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      It's the other players in this game (who do have the empathy) who only occasionally gain power and who always cause disasters when they do.

      So who are you talking about? Politicians? Because I will say again, if you think empathy is their defining quality, you're not living on the same planet as the rest of us.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    25. Re:Don't blame math by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      [T]hose who achieve ascent to power ... are all deluded.

      FTFY.

      Seriously. Politicians, Wall Street traders, CEOs, generals, religious leaders, pretty much anyone who is willing to do what you have to do to get and keep power over large numbers of other people -- they all live in a reality distortion field. And in the particular case under discussion (the 2008 crash) yes, damn it, Wall Street's RDF had a lot more to do with it than anyone else's RDF did. Those like OP who try to pretend otherwise are distorting reality themselves, and they're probably not even getting paid for it.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    26. Re:Don't blame math by Prune · · Score: 2

      Saying Germany and France control the Euro is misleading since France's influence on the Euro was never equal to Germany's and lately has diminished further. The Eurozone troubles are a classic case of merchantilism. Germany's policies of trade surplus made possible by domestic wage suppression, combined with a single currency, is benefiting within the Eurozone only those at the top of German industry and finance. The resulting disaster was predicted decades ago by Modern Monetary Theorists.

      --
      "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
    27. Re:Don't blame math by koan · · Score: 1

      Well not if you're stupid *smirk*

      --
      "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    28. Re:Don't blame math by koan · · Score: 1

      Wow can you not follow your own argument?

      No, don't blame greed. Empathy is 100% responsible for the crash.

      You were blaming empathy not greed, prove empathy led to the crash.

      --
      "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    29. Re:Don't blame math by koan · · Score: 1

      You must live in Texas...

      --
      "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    30. Re:Don't blame math by koan · · Score: 1

      Maybe you're smarter than you give yourself credit for.

      --
      "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    31. Re:Don't blame math by Cacadril · · Score: 1

      All this algorithmic trading was a bit like building a power station to extract energy from surface waves in a choppy sea. The algorithms are adjusted to maximize profits from small minute-to-minute price movements. Now, in a sea, if the volume of one wave diminishes, the water is still somewhere, the sea level does not sink. But in the economy, sometimes the bottom plug is out and the water is draining.

      The Black-Scholes formula uses "volatility" as input. It does not try to predict the volatility. Volatility is measured as the standard deviation in the price variability over a limited time period. There is no method there to compute the possibility of a market crash. If you assume the price movements are random walk, the likelyhood of all prices going in the same direction is nil, since there are millions of prices.

      I refuse to believe that nobody saw this flaw. I am sure the whole population of quants were thinking "after me, the deludge". Very many CDOs were created by companies that sold them to other institutions, so that they only ran a limited risk associated with the small amount of derivatives they still held when the crash came. Add the bailout likelyhood, and add the fact that the individuals would get away with their bonuses even if their ship were to sink.

      --
      There is no substitute for common sense. Especially, no body of rules will do.
    32. Re:Don't blame math by RCourtney · · Score: 1

      "empathy": I dont think that word mean what any of the above posts think it means. Empathy is where you understand and therefore can relate to what someone else's situation and circumstances makes them feel and think. And we know no one on Wall Street even cared about those who were screwed over let alone tried to imagine themselves on the other side of the equation. I think the word the last post was looking for is "altruistic" but that cant be right either because we know the only reason 99.9% of companies do anything altruistic is in order to increase profits or reputation (which is just another way of ensuring profit) which is, in its true intrrpretation, not altrustic aftrr all.

    33. Re:Don't blame math by reasterling · · Score: 1

      It's either laziness, ignorance, or stupidity

      You forgot "apathy". I am not stupid, lazy, or ignorant. I simply do not care if I misspell a word or two on an internet message board. I am only throwing my 2 cents into a conversation. I am not writing a term paper.

      --
      "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice" -- God
    34. Re:Don't blame math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No one put a gun to their head. They used the legislation as an excuse to make fraudulent loans. Your analogy reflects nothing in the real world and you're poorly served by using it.

    35. Re:Don't blame math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's either laziness, ignorance, or stupidity, and it's moronic to assume you know which one it is.

      If you're too lazy or stupid to correct your ignorance, it doesn't matter which one it is.

      Put it this way: you may be ignorant of the correct form, but if you're a professional writer, you should have an editor who knows the difference and corrects you. You should remember the rule from then on, otherwise you have no business writing professionally.

      One more thing: don't give me any of this shit about how "language evolves" and you should be able to spell it any way you like. As long as there are standards in journalism (and I hope they don't sink any lower) it's still a mistake!

    36. Re:Don't blame math by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Of course, I can follow my own argument. What kind of a nonsense question is that? I proved that greed didn't lead to the crash. As for the 2nd assertion... it is a taller order. I'll just hand-wave it. Some of the facts of leading to that conclusion have already been alluded to. But the full argument is more intricate. I am just going to give up for now and be content that might dismiss assertion because you don't like it. Yep, I am dropping the ball on this. I am tired of carrying it. I know exactly how complicated a flame war it turn into. We've done this before.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    37. Re:Don't blame math by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Well, I'll agree with you this much: whenever you see someone demanding empathy (*), hold on to your wallet. But that's not the demand made by business. It is, however, the demand often made by politicians.

      (*)love, compassion, patriotism are in that category, too.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    38. Re:Don't blame math by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      It is a sustainable business model. The problem is, the government bailed out the ones that failed at properly playing this model.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    39. Re:Don't blame math by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      The ratings agencies weren't gullible. They were in on it too. They were paid for their ratings by the people asking for the ratings. If they'd done their jobs and rated them poor, those buying the ratings would go elsewhere for them.

      Close. They would still buy them, but they would pay less for them. You can still make a profit buying debt with a 90% chance of default if you get it at a >90% discount.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    40. Re:Don't blame math by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      You shouldn't and no one gives a shit that you don't, so there's no need to bother mentioning it.

    41. Re:Don't blame math by marnues · · Score: 2

      No need to blame the banks. It was a systemic problem that was not created exclusively by the banks (Ratings agencies told them the risk was low), by finance (derivatives are actually an excellent financial tool when used intelligently), by government (government backed credit has been used since time immemorial, some for good some for bad, regarding both intention and result), by salesmen (the micro-economics were sound), by buyers (again with the micro-economics), or by the ratings agencies. I don't have a comment for the last one, as they (much more than the SEC or any government agency) are the watchdog for these situations. If there was any misdeed, it was that the finance guys felt good about creating crazy derivatives while the ratings guys felt good about rating them. Yes, some people in this huge equation were malicious. They can be found in each and every corner. And they would have gotten away with it except for the crash. Justice for any who committed crimes, but blame none if not the whole for the crash.

    42. Re:Don't blame math by marnues · · Score: 1

      Reread the GP. Your comment isn't helping.

    43. Re:Don't blame math by marnues · · Score: 2

      Reality distortion field? I'd have to say it's the rest of us in the distortion fields. We don't have enough information to understand the system, yet many of the people on this topic have decided they know who to blame for the crash. I've come to accept that reality distortion fields are a necessary part of belonging to the human race. The few of us that can get past them are likely to hold power over the rest of us. Using reality to one's advantage is of course the ultimate power.

    44. Re:Don't blame math by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      It's got nothing to do with empathy. There are two factors at work: greed and fear.

      Greed makes people want to risk money in order to make more money. Fear makes people not want to risk their money.

      When interest are held too low for too long greed goes up - investors need to take bigger risks in order to make reasonable returns.

      When investors see that they are always being bailed out (the Greenspan Put has a name for a reason) fear is reduced.

      So we got outselves into a situation of high greed and low fear - a guaranteed bubble. Sure the housing bubble was helped along by some stupid government policies, but fundamentally it was just a continuation of the tech stock bubble - the money had to go somewhere.

    45. Re:Don't blame math by marnues · · Score: 1

      No need to feed the trolls.

    46. Re:Don't blame math by marnues · · Score: 1

      I want him to show that empathy is somehow a new trait...that'd be some finely tune BS.

    47. Re:Don't blame math by marnues · · Score: 1

      What, you're trying to add some intelligence to this thread?

    48. Re:Don't blame math by Sir_Sri · · Score: 2

      France's economy is big enough it influences the euro both directly and indirectly. What happens to greece is about the same as what happens to north carolina, sure, it can be bad there, but over all it's not that much of a problem. France on the other hand is about 1/5th of the eurozone (compared to germany 1/4), what happens there will significantly alter the value of the euro. Italy is about the same with spain a distant 4th. The 'big 3' of France, Germany and Italy should reasonably define the euro on world markets, but italy politically has been largely out of it.

      So sure, I agree, German banks have more influence than france, and in terms of both total trade and out of Eurozone trade germany dwarfs france and italy combined. But politically and from the market perspective it's hard to discount France. Politically you can discount Italy, but the way things are going the italy economy is going to drag down the euro, whether they are politically involved or not.

    49. Re:Don't blame math by marnues · · Score: 1

      The math has as many contradictions as any mainstream religion. Complex systems are complex systems, no matter the starting point.

    50. Re:Don't blame math by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2

      The blame lies with those who let them run free in the first place by deregulating the financial sector, not on animals following their instincts.

      The deregulators absolutely deserve blame, but so do the predators here. They aren't animals, they are people who have free will and the ability to make moral decisions and thus they have culpability unlike an actual wolf.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    51. Re:Don't blame math by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Wrong. I made 2 assertions. I definitely proved the 1st (greed was not responsible in any way whatsoever) and dropped the ball on proving the 2nd (empathy was 100% responsible).

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    52. Re:Don't blame math by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      And empathy continued to work AFTER the crash. The politicians couldn't bring themselves to let all those poor bankers go bust, so they saved them.

    53. Re:Don't blame math by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      The blame lies with those who let them run free in the first place by deregulating the financial sector, not on animals following their instincts.

      The deregulators absolutely deserve blame, but so do the predators here. They aren't animals, they are people who have free will and the ability to make moral decisions and thus they have culpability unlike an actual wolf.

      Not "Are","Were".
      You really can't blame them for their actions; They have no proper reasoning, and you know what must be done.

      You can't just act like they're still your friends once they've lost all cognitive capability except the irresistible craving profit.
      As the saying goes: Zombies Were People Too!

    54. Re:Don't blame math by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Then hang the whole bunch. Not like anything of value would be lost.

      It's the chuzpah that really irks me. They were bailed out to stabilize the economy and so they could and would grant loans again to give people a chance to continue. Instead, they turn around and continue gambling with the money.

      Seriously, why'd I miss those sponges?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    55. Re:Don't blame math by Prune · · Score: 1

      Population is an improperly weighted metric for this comparison. It's the net money inflow into Germany that's the point. It's an artificially maintained trade surplus, resulting in hoarding cash. That's what mercantilism is. Germany's eurozone trading partners can't fight back by adjusting their currency's exchange rate, because they don't have their own currency! The only way for them, then, to cope, is to significantly boost productivity per capita--and the way the Germans gain that asymmetry is by wage suppression at home.

      The bailouts will be a continued necessity, maybe for Greece now, another economically weak nation another time--but there will always be a nation or group of them in the eurozone that bears the brunt of Germany's "beggar thy neighbor" behavior. If Greece or some other economically weak country falls out of the eurozone, the eurozone's cannibalistic process will then continue with another country, as long as the monetary integration of the eurozone is not matched by fiscal and economic integration (which will never happen, as Europe is far more heterogenous than the union of American states). The eurozone will dwindle and disintegrate.

      --
      "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
  3. No Really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A model is a model. The problem was that people who made aggressive (read "stupid") assumptions initially made money and those that were right (read "cautious") made little or lost. This created a bubble. The same kind that happened before option pricing models and computers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_bubble

    1. Re:No Really by chriseyre2000 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The Black-Scholes model is an attempt to apply solved heat flow equations to a financial pricing problem. It requires demonstrably invalid assumptions to be made to make it work (such as markets do not trend). Just because a Nobel prize was awarded does not make the model valid.

    2. Re:No Really by NonSequor · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's more to it than that. The model has developed into a philosophy which has been built out beyond its workable foundation.

      It starts with the risk neutral measure. Basically the concept is that you can construct a probability measure (basically a reweighting of probability of events) from market prices. Basically the market prices of a stock, a forward contract (a contract to deliver the stock at a fixed point in the future), a call option (an agreement to offer the option of buying the stock at a given price in the future), a put option (an agreement to offer the option to sell a stock at a given price in the future), and other contracts related to the price of the stock in the future all have to have prices rationally related to each other. If the price of one of these things deviates from the risk neutral measure implied by the others, you can construct arbitrage positions where you can make a profit with negligible risk and executing this arbitrage has the effect of moving the market prices closer toward their theoretical values.

      Observably, market prices don't reflect real probabilities. Safe investments such as treasury bonds are disproportionately more expensive than highly rated bonds with a low chance of default based on historical default rates. This is explained due to risk aversion and philosophically, the risk neutral measure is said to reflect the market's assessment of the risk of each investment and also the risk preferences of market participants. This concept is the basis of financial economics, and the school of thought derived from this position has been dominant in economic related disciplines for the past 30 years.

      As a means of analyzing for arbitrage opportunities and pricing of marketable securities in a way that avoids offering others arbitrage opportunities, this methodology is largely unassailable. However, where they overextend themselves is that in conjunction with the efficient market hypothesis, they've started to assume that this framework lets you farm out the function of assessing the likelihood of future events to the market and even in some cases they've asserted that it's immoral to use methodologies which imply prices for non-marketable securities which aren't directly comparable to marketable analogues.

      It's basically a religion at this point. They honestly believe that the risk neutral measure isn't just a post hoc rationalization imposed on market prices, but a normative guide to upright living and that the market's assessments of the ("risk-adjusted") probability of future events is the best and most rational basis for making all decisions and for framing all policy and regulation.

      --
      My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
    3. Re:No Really by repapetilto · · Score: 1

      Is it that complicated? I thought the models just gave the traders an excuse to underestimate kurtosis risk.

    4. Re:No Really by NonSequor · · Score: 1

      Yes it actually is that complicated, although the majority of people working in finance and related disciplines don't understand the model and at best just know how to plug prices into Black-Scholes.

      --
      My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
    5. Re:No Really by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 2

      Most models are invalid in some regard. The trick is to know when you can live with the particular ways in which a given model is invalid.

    6. Re:No Really by IntentionalStance · · Score: 1
      Read the Black Swan by Nissam Nicholas Taleb

      The essential issue is that models, such as Black-Scholes, that are used to price options assume that the market's movements are distributed according to a Gaussian distribution.

      They aren't - it's a power law

      The difference is huge

      50% of all gains in the stock market in the last 50 years happened on 10 individual days and Black-Scholes says that this can never happen even once in a life time

    7. Re:No Really by NonSequor · · Score: 2

      I agree that this is a big deal, but it's not the entire problem. As I noted, these models don't deal with real probabilities, they're a framework for dealing with market implied probabilities in such a way that arbitrages can be constructed that pay out regardless of the outcomes. It's actually a framework for constructing portfolios that are independent of future outcomes, not one that actually predicts them, although the distinction is lost on a lot of people.

      --
      My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
    8. Re:No Really by IntentionalStance · · Score: 1
      You are, of course, correct and clear in all your points but I would just like to add one theme. These carefully constructed arbitrage positions only work out if the counter party can meet their obligations. If they can only do so because of their arbitraged position against yet another party ad infinitum then you end up with a house built from a deck of cards just waiting for any major event to knock the whole thing down.

      The problem is that the methodology was, and as far I can tell still, completely is completely assailable

      Essentially this involves making a bet justified by a set of assumptions, in particular that market movements are distributed over a Gaussian curve. You then insure yourself in case your forecasts *and* assumptions are wrong. Arbitrage protects you if your forecasts are wrong.

      However, you aren't covered if your insurer made the same assumptions as you about how markets move and can't now pay out your insurance.

      The maths may be unassailable given it's assumptions but that doesn't make it correct in the real world

      I assume you know all this stuff and we're just exchanging alternative explanations - if not then I do strongly recommend reading Taleb. He's not just an academic - be personally made millions out of the late 80's and the late 90's market crashes

    9. Re:No Really by GlobalEcho · · Score: 1

      contracts related to the price of the stock in the future all have to have prices rationally related to each other

      To expand somewhat on your point:

      The entire framework works extremely well (with certain modifications such as using volatility surfaces) for highly liquid markets with clear contracts and negligible jump risk, such as index futures and options. That success led to other markets "stretching" the model and its conceptual brethren to contracts where it worked successively worse, culminating perhaps in the silliness of options on tranche protection in CDO^2.

      the market's assessments of the ("risk-adjusted") probability of future events is the best and most rational basis

      I would also like to distinguish between risk models, which were always supposed to use real-world probability measures, and pricing models using risk-neutral measure. The mathematics explicitly distinguishes them, while the practice (as you note) often did not. But even when real-world probabilities were used, things went wrong when the parameters were fitted to historical experience. The prime example most telling example of that was risk models for packaged mortgages, calibrated to a historical period in which real estate prices had never declined.

  4. typo in headline by mrgil · · Score: 4, Informative

    The past tense of lead is "led", not "lead". When "lead" is pronounced like "led", it's a metal. This mistake pops up everywhere. Correcting it here won't fix anything, but when someone on the internet is wrong, duty calls.

    --
    Disclaimer: It's All Been Said Before.
    1. Re:typo in headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In other news, language changes over time.

    2. Re:typo in headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yup, whenever you misspell a word or write a malformed sentence, it's not a mistake. It's a contribution!

      In fact, you're a genius, on a par with Shakespeare. The language is just too small to contain your brilliance.

      Well done you.

    3. Re:typo in headline by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Your mistake is in thinking the headline is past tense.

    4. Re:typo in headline by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Your sarcasm detector is badly out of adjustment and/or you've responded to the wrong post.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    5. Re:typo in headline by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      And yours is not recognising that nouns and verbs have singular and plural forms which must agree, apparently.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  5. Guns are don't kill people by gmuslera · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People do. The downfall was made by people using tools (like that formula) without understanding all that required or implied.

    1. Re:Guns are don't kill people by Guppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People do. The downfall was made by people using tools (like that formula) without understanding all that required or implied.

      Quite so. A risk evaluation that says "95% of the time you will lose less than X" implies "5% of the time you will lose a more than X".
      With the stinger being that it says nothing of the range and distribution of values of "more than X".

    2. Re:Guns are don't kill people by timeOday · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're so sure they didn't understand what they were doing? Maybe they didn't care. None of them returned their commissions on all the trades and phony "profits" they took out of the system, and practically nobody went to jail. They won. Furthermore nothing much has changed. It will happen again.

    3. Re:Guns are don't kill people by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 2

      Well who really is to blame? The banks for taking advantage of vehicles that were seen as revolutionary and safe, hedge funds for generating extreme demand for said vehicles despite their safety going beyond common sense once the market grew, the credit reporting companies that kept the insurers credit ratings despite being undercapitalized to fulfill the insured debt obligations, or the government administration that saw the rise of the derivatives market amd subsequent housing bubble but chose to not interfere with something so obviously and radically different until they were almost out of office and simply announced impending doom of the collapse?

      The real tradgedy is that the banks were bailed out at all, and instead of propping them up to save the economy, they were given loans at rates so low they could screw the economy over even more by killing credit and investing in treasury bonds.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    4. Re:Guns are don't kill people by tunapez · · Score: 4, Informative

      You are both right. The fund managers and their pet quants did not understand the whole process and the effects of their actions, all they knew was they were 'printing money' out of thin air every day. Cannot say they were not warned by many, including the father of quantitative analysis; the late, great Mr. Mandelbrot. Yeah, the fractal guy. Taleb was also an ardent 'wet blanket'. Both predicted this mess years before it happened. Nothing has changed, toxic assets are STILL accumulating in many funds' portfolios. Who cares? The Guv will bail them out after they're done raping the markets.

      --
      Imagination drew in bold strokes, instantly serving hopes and fears, while knowledge advanced by slow increments...
    5. Re:Guns are don't kill people by RegularFry · · Score: 1

      It's worse than that - Black-Scholes *does* make an assumption about the distribution of "more than x", and in that specific situation the assumption is catastrophically wrong.

      --
      Reality is the ultimate Rorschach.
  6. No need for Black-Scholes to account for things by ehynes · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Plenty of financial collapses have preceded the current one without the benefit of Black-Scholes. What did they, and the current collapse, all have in common? Excess credit.

    1. Re:No need for Black-Scholes to account for things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In this case, Black-Scholes led to the excess credit by creating too much investor confidence in the loans being given. Because it models risk as a thin-tailed distribution, its use systemically encourages risk taking.

    2. Re:No need for Black-Scholes to account for things by polar+red · · Score: 2

      Don't forget the fake financial psuedo-products.

      --
      Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
    3. Re:No need for Black-Scholes to account for things by hey! · · Score: 1

      The difference here is how the existence of that excess credit was justified. The model says you can create riskless investment positions, in which case, why not extend more credit? You've got the risk of default covered. As long as not too many people are doing that, you're actually in pretty good shape. When enough people are doing it, you end up with people shoring each other's absolutely safe investments up, a situation ripe for a chain reaction.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    4. Re:No need for Black-Scholes to account for things by pitchpipe · · Score: 2

      The previous financial collapses were caused by using the Black-Holes mathematical model. Black-Scholes just spruced that one up a bit.

      --
      Look where all this talking got us, baby.
    5. Re:No need for Black-Scholes to account for things by Bram+Stolk · · Score: 1

      It was not excess credit.
      It was synthetic credit default swaps.
      Those things are just 'side bets' on whether the creditors will default or not.
      The market of side-bets was way larger than the actual mortgage market.

      If you have a billion dollar of mortgages, they would have 10 billion dollar bets on whether the mortgages would default or not.
      Those bets is what brought banks down.

      --
      Bram Stolk http://stolk.org/tlctc/
  7. well known in econ circles... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The one in 98 (yes there was one there the US gov fixed that one then kept it fairly quiet). Then the one in 2000 and the one in 2003 and the big one in 2008.

    Hedge funds are killing us with 'liquidity'. But for a short time they make us boatloads of money!

    The way it was explained to me was *IF* the market does not move in one direction or the other much this formula works. If it starts to move in either direction your going to get hit...

    1. Re:well known in econ circles... by desertfool · · Score: 1

      "The one in 98".. citation needed?

      Not being snarky, but instead I would like to read about it. I remember the Asia/Russia currency collapses around that time, and surely it had to hit us in some way. I just always assumed we got lucky. Do you have any good links?

      --
      Just a dude. Stuck in IT.
  8. Greed by GeneralTurgidson · · Score: 1

    Greed was responsible for the financial crash. If this algorithm hadnt even existed, we still would have been in the same mess we're in.

    1. Re:Greed by SaroDarksbane · · Score: 2

      Saying greed causes financial collapses is like saying gravity causes plane crashes; while trivially true, it doesn't give us much insight into the nature of the problem.

    2. Re:Greed by MickLinux · · Score: 1

      Okay, since Adam's fall mimiced Lucifer's fall, humanity's basic weakness is for each person to want to be viewed, by themselves and others, as a god: to defend one's self, to control others, to be worshipped by others, and more. That leads to many problems, including rage, murder, theft, and also greed. The desire to be a god, though, is called wickedness. Because the desire conflicts with reality, it causes great destruction. The financial crash, in the end, is therefore a result of wickedness. Or, in shorthand, I could accept some inaccuracy and say that greed caused the crash. And yes, greed HAS been around since time out of mind. The same is true of crashes. So the statement actually validates the theorem.

      --
      Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
    3. Re:Greed by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      So, what you're saying is that God doesn't want to be one? Or else He's wicked? Or instead that somehow he really messed up when he made man in his image? I mean, in your view, that man wants to be God like didn't come from no-where right? It came from somewhere... Everything has a purpose. Egro: God made man to be wicked like He is -- Otherwise, There exists the possibility that I may attain god like power and yet be as gentle and benevolent as his own son...

      Just saying -- Your belief that you are already on the short end of the moral stick just by being born is a fear tactic to keep you subjugated and paying a religion tax.

    4. Re:Greed by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > Saying greed causes financial collapses is like saying gravity causes plane crashes;

      Total nonsense analogy.

      How did the plane leave the ground *in the first place* ??

      So gravity causes a plane sitting on the ground to crash??

    5. Re:Greed by MickLinux · · Score: 1

      I have no concept of the question does God want to be God? He is God, and since he defines reality, there is no conflict with reality, and there is no destruction, and there is no wickness.

      --
      Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
  9. Theory and Application by alphatel · · Score: 3, Informative

    Deregulation, not models, permitted bad behavior. Banks that guarantee loans simply should not be emulsifying them into packaged trades, and then hedging their own equity on the loan derivatives. It's like taking a tulip bulb, selling interest in a tenth of the bulb with 1000:1 equity, and then saying it's more stable. Once it goes the wrong way you are screwed and you know it (but you just don't want to believe it could ever happen).

    --
    When the foot seeks the place of the head, the line is crossed. Know your place. Keep your place. Be a shoe.
    1. Re:Theory and Application by swalve · · Score: 5, Informative

      The emulsifying you are talking about wasn't the problem so much as was the leverage and the short information horizon. An investor could buy one mortgage and take on binary risk- it pays off, or it fails. That's a lot of risk. So he can pool his money with a bunch of other people and buy 1% of 100 loans. The risk of any loan failing is spread across all the investors. That, in itself, is a good idea, it is just basic diversification.

      The leverage problem was that they didn't just split the loans equally like that, they split the loans into tranches, or classes, of investor. The risk averse investor bought the high quality tranche, and for that got a higher guarantee of payment in exchange for a higher price (lower yield). The lower tranches were sold to suckers with the promise of potentially high rates of return. But as the individual loans started failing, the way the package was levered, the higher investors ended up getting paid, and the lower investors got nothing.

      A quick example of the information problem was the practice of the 80-15-5 mortgage loans. Conventional wisdom says that when someone takes out a mortgage with zero down, that mortgage is more likely to fail. So again, conventional wisdom says that in order to hedge for that increased potential failure, you need to charge a higher interest rate. For some reason, and I agree it was probably lack of regulation, someone figured out that you could split the mortgage into three portions- standard risk (the 80%), higher risk (the 15%) and highest risk (the 5%). In the documents for the 80% loan, you could then say that this loan had 20% down, and you'd get the good rate. Then you do the same with the 15% loan- "hey, this loan has 5% down, give us the OK rate". Then you would only end up paying the super high risk rate on 5% of the balance of the mortgage instead of the whole thing. The problem there was that the whole loan had the high risk, but the investors in the 80% and the 15% didn't know it.

    2. Re:Theory and Application by repapetilto · · Score: 1

      Well, you could argue that any bank doing that would just eventually fail due to their policy of underestimating risks. The problem is that the bank gets to take down everyone around them as well. Why are banks so huge and powerful?

      Perhaps if banks were treated like normal businesses it wouldn't be such a big deal when they fail. Then again there is a 200 year history of special treatment (bank holidays, etc) so it would be a shock to the system to do that now.

    3. Re:Theory and Application by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Deregulation, not models, permitted bad behavior.

      Banks were faking/changing loan documents, lying to customers, and pushing customers into bad (but profitable) loans.
      All the regulation in the world won't help if there's no one enforcing the rules.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    4. Re:Theory and Application by olau · · Score: 1

      I may be wrong, but I was under the impression the 80% part is supposed to be secure because you can auction off the house if needed? That's how it works in Denmark.

      Of course, it's not secure against correlated failures where the whole housing market crashes. Financial institutions appear to be too slow to react to that kind of writing on the wall.

  10. It led to crash because... by drobety · · Score: 1

    The Black-Scholes formula leads to crash because it misses components which account for: a) looking at the formula, b) using the formula.

    1. Re:It led to crash because... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      Exactly. The Black-Scholes formula (and most other formulas which attempt to predict market behavior) are structured on the theory that people make decisions regarding buying and selling based on factors primarily concerned with the value of the financial instrument being traded vs the value of other financial instruments that are available to the buyer and seller. The problem with the formula happens when people start to make decisions regarding the market on the basis of the formula rather than their perception of the value of various financial instruments available to them. As soon as the number of traders relying on the formula exceeds some percentage (I do not know what that percentage is) the formula stops accurately predicting the market. It will continue to appear to be predicting the market for a short period of time after this happens, but it will be inflating a bubble that will inevitably burst when someone notices that the pricing of certain financial instruments is out of sync with their relative value to other financial instruments.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  11. Interesting, but really... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Interesting, but really, blaming the seed on Jack looting the giant's castle? I used to write risk analysis software for the traders and market makers at the options exchange in Chicago (CBOE) and am intimately familiar with Black-Scholes algorithm (I've implemented it more than once). In the article, the sub-text to one photo, "Options allow a trader to have a delicious risk-free portfolio", is totally bogus! Options allow a trader to MINIMIZE the risk in their portfolios, and BS (no pun intended) helps traders to do that in a mathematically/statistically rigorous way. Misuse of any tool (using a hammer to kill someone, for example) is not the tool's fault, but the wielder of the tool!

    -Rubberman

  12. The Economy, a genuine creation by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

    Amazing how mankind is able to create from A to Z the very rules that eventually lead to its failure.

    --
    Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
  13. old news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This was covered by the guardian a whole two months back. Link Partly debunked here

  14. A math model? That must be a fancy name for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    1. Approve $300K mortgages for people earning $35K/yr, falsifying documents as needed

    2. Bundle slices of thousands of these mortgages into derivatives along with "insurance" against the mortgages defaulting and "insurance" against the bundles failing, etc, under the direction of math and finance PhD's. Sell these "Triple-A-rated securities" to gullible investors worldwide.

    3. ??

    4. Profit!

    8-figure pay packages for bankers and 7-figure for mortgage brokers, real estate agents, workers in credit rating agencies, etc. until the music stops. But hey, you won't need to defend your resume when you've got enough millions in the bank.

    5. Watch housing prices rise by 30-50 percent/yr

    6. Goto step 1.

  15. nonsense...pure nonsense by superwiz · · Score: 2

    The formula calculates what can be expected based on what is known.... That's all. What's next? Are we gonna start blaming actuarial tables for people dying in car crashes?

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  16. Who comes up with this shit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The Math Formula That Lead To the Financial Crash

    No, lending money to illiterate shitkickers who couldn't service the loans caused the crash. (Why does everyone keep ignoring this point?)

    1. Re:Who comes up with this shit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because more often than not the "illiterate shitkickers" we're lied to and told they could services the loans? Why do people keep ignoring that people were commiting fraud for profit?

  17. Peter Schiff? by moj0joj0 · · Score: 1

    Is that you?

  18. Not too complex for a musical by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 3, Funny

    I highly recommend the opera at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhEH00rlmz8, from the Ig Nobel prizes a few years ago. It captured the most recent banking crisis rather well, and without the need to blame human greed on misused mathematical formula.

  19. Supply and Demand by Guppy · · Score: 4, Funny

    Once Risk became a commodity capable of being bought and sold, it was only a matter of time before market responded by producing more Risk.

    1. Re:Supply and Demand by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Should have used the Australian Gambit.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    2. Re:Supply and Demand by mr_3ntropy · · Score: 1

      Funny? This is the most insightful post in this thread. It neatly summarizes the cause of the crisis in a sentence.

  20. this quote is so lame by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Interesting

    the purpose of a tool has a meaning

    give everyone a toilet brush, toilets will get cleaned. give everyone a hammer, nails will get pounded. give everyone a gun, people will get shot

    the availability and easy access of a tool with an intended purpose and meaning makes certain outcomes easier. it's not complicated

    the tool itself, and the presence of the tool, has significance. we all reach the limits of our temper at various points in our lives. we will confuse our teenage son sneaking into the house in the dark with an intruder. we will be drunk and clumsy. and in those situations, whether or not a gun is in easy reach radically changes the outcome of the situation

    the purpose and presence of the tool matters

    the proper quote is

    "guns don't kill people, people with guns do"

    if you want guns to be legal, fine. but don't depend upon flimsy easily dismantled logic to justify your beliefs

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:this quote is so lame by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      we will be drunk and clumsy. and in those situations, whether or not a gun is in easy reach radically changes the outcome of the situation

      Yeah, just like with kitchen knives and car keys, right?

      Meat cleavers don't kill people, people with meat cleavers do. Right? The presence and purpose of a kitchen knife clearly has moral weight, don't you think? The knife is meant to render things apart. To cut holes in things, to chop things, to remove meat from bones, and such. What moral value are you assigning to that destructive device, while being so capricious about guns? I've never shot anybody, though I've used guns thousands of times. I have, though, ended a very violent situation by brandishing a gun, and thus saving myself and another from certain damage and quite possible death. I've used guns to kill a venomous snake likely to injure or kill a domestic animal. I've used guns untold times to put dinner on the table.

      flimsy easily dismantled logic

      You're operating on completely muddled premises, plenty of ignorance, and a heaping dose of disingenous cherry picking.

      the purpose and presence of the tool matters

      No, what you do with it matters. If you think you're the type who can't trust yourself around a shotgun, a chain saw, large kitchen knives, a gallon of gasoline, or behind someone standing at the edge of a train station platform, then you should remove those temptations and tools from your own weak presence. Simple as that. If you know you can't stop yourself from hurting someone with a tool when you get drunk, then your sober awareness that you have the item around is again you acting. Deliberately. The tool doesn't cause you to use it, ever.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    2. Re:this quote is so lame by steelfood · · Score: 1

      I quote Spider-man:

      With great power comes great responsibility.

      Power refers to the power that one person holds over another. Guns are this great power. They can inflict, in less than a second, what the next most lethal commonplace weapon cannot inflict in two seconds. It takes two seconds to reach someone and stab them with a knife. It takes someone with a gun less than a second to aim and shoot. That extra second and a half is huge. It is made possible by a huge difference in power on the order of several magnitudes. It is the difference between a situation that's out of control, and regaining control over the situation.

      People fail to appreciate just how much additional power a gun has over a knife. They don't understand what they've put into their own hands.

      And so it gets misused, abused. Accidents happen. Tragedies occur. These things don't happen because people enjoy causing harm to others. They happen because they don't understand the sheer magnitude of their ability to do harm that they now suddenly possess.

      The antidote of this is not to ban guns, or to impose significant restrictions. It is education. Education encompasses more than just usage. Education also includes exploring the ethics and morality of gun usage. But if guns are a taboo subject, then there is and will ever only be ignorance. Of course, it's necessary to restrict them from the incompetent (young children, mentally disabled, and mentally unstable, e.g. sociopathic). Those people cannot be educated. But everyone else can and should be taught what it means to be holding a gun.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    3. Re:this quote is so lame by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 1

      "guns don't kill people, people with guns do"

      Nah. If you look at the statistics (we have almost as many guns in Sweden as you do in the US), the only conclusion you can draw is that "Guns don't kill people, Americans kill people." (Or hyper correct: "While guns don't kill people, Americans with handguns kill people.")

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
  21. What really happened... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    What really happened is this:

    #1. Large central banks control the issuing of currency, to governments. This, however, is a loan. Repayable with interest.

    #2. The very same large central banks (eg. The Federal Reserve) accept payment only in the currency they themselves issued, or that of another large central bank.

    #3. The loan (issue of currency) is therefore impossible to repay, because the interest payments cannot be made without issuing more currency. (Loans with interest)

    #4. We have now reached the point where the interest payments outstrip the available currency. Take a look at http://USdebtClock.org (Figures there are sourced from the US Treasury)

    #5. The system crashes and burns, because it's an impossible formula. (Happened already, the effects have not been felt yet, not even in Greece. What's yet to come is far, far worse.)

    This is why the EU and US are fucked. Who are they actually in debt to? Large central banks, typically of other nations. When two nations are in debt to each other, (as is very often the case, eg. Spain & Italy, which owe each other tens of billions of euros) why is the debt not cancelled out to the extent possible?

    Because of the interest payments!

    It's really very simple when you look at how the money is created in the first place, to see that the only thing it can possibly end in is debt and the enslavement of entire nations... Exactly as designed.

    Oh, also... None of these central banks are using gold reserves any more, that's old hat. No, they've sold those off and now hold reserves of foreign currency instead...

    But if none of them have any gold left, and simply have foreign currency issued by banks that also have no gold left... Ultimately, it's all entirely worthless anyway.

    1. Re:What really happened... by zippthorne · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And when they did hold gold, gold wasn't actually useful for much of anything except looking pretty. So it's always been nothing.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    2. Re:What really happened... by ZigMonty · · Score: 3, Informative

      I've heard this repeated several times but it's a load of misinformed crap. It's one of those "makes sense to someone who knows nothing but is totally false" myths.

      When a central bank creates money through a loan and it is later paid back, it is only the principal of the loan that is created and destroyed. The interest portion is considered the bank's profit and is paid out to the bank's shareholders (whoever that may be, it differs depending on which country you're talking about, but usually member banks and/or the government). That money is not destroyed and re-enters circulation. How would it even make sense for the interest to be destroyed as well?? That would totally break the concept of double-entry accounting (which central banks do still follow).

      I don't know where this myth started but it's 100% false. I realise the financial crisis has made everyone interested and out for easy answers, but "the only thing it can possibly end in is debt and the enslavement of entire nations... Exactly as designed"? Please. I hate bankers as much as the next person but i wish we could focus on the real problem (outright, unpunished fraud) rather than this kind of fairytale crap.

    3. Re:What really happened... by wrook · · Score: 2

      What's worse is that if you base all currencies on the same finite resource, the rich countries corner the market in that resource. If you want to bolster your currency, you have to buy the resource, but nobody is selling. This raises the price of the resource, strengthening the rich country's position and weakening the poor country's position. This actually happened and it led to the abandonment of the gold standard.

  22. Complexity theory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The same can be said for pretty much advance in science in the last 50 years. If you're truly interested in what can and cannot be predicted - given correct models, there's a science studying that, complexity theory.

    But from finance over climate to even whether the planets will keep turning - all are too complex to be predicted, even though science has advanced to the point where individual events can be predicted short times in advance with near-certainty. However there's obvious things that can't be predicted. If the moon decides to crash into the earth, we will know in advance - but only a few weeks at the most. Yes, really.

    In some ways this was inevitable. Science has moved from predicting individual events, like say a car collision, or physical changes happening inside an extremely well-described cloud, a single rational decision taken by someone considering a bank loan - to predicting the global effects of an undefined number of such interactions combined. The answer coming out of all this is rather disappointing : it's not working - and it isn't working any better outside of finance either. The mathematician's answer, chaos theory, is thoroughly disappointing : there is no valid way to make useful long-term predictions of any system more complex than X (btw: you want a nobel prize ? find what X is exactly) which does not require omniscience (which for any real world prediction would effectively be all the information that exists anywhere in the universe)

    So the real question changes - if you require proof we can essentially predict nothing. If you even require valid inputs to statistical functions we can essentially predict nothing. Barely any recent science follows from first principles, except perhaps in Mathematics. Physics makes a good-hearted attempt, but it has to violate the first-principles - it's attempting to discover new ones. Every other science never even attempts to work from first principles, it just doesn't work.

    Finance - the models only work when you assume decisions don't interact in the short term (ie. nobody decides to either sell a house or forestall selling it because of anything that happens that doesn't directly affect that loan. If this is true, then the financial crisis was impossible (yet also inevitable)). And of course the basic economic assumption - that everyone takes the rational course of action immediately - no matter how complex the logic, and irrespective of any personal convictions.
    Climate - energy balance only has to sum up if you assume the entropy of the system is negligible, or if you work on infinite time-scales. Needless to say, infinite time scales are a bit long for practical usage. Entropy within our atmosphere is anything but negligible. The second big assumption made in climate science is that small portions of the atmosphere behave identical to large portions of the atmosphere.
    Planets - planet's orbits only behave the way you're taught in school if they followed Newton. But that's not the worst assumption. The other assumption necessary to make Kepler work is that planetary orbits are independent, and no objects with mass can possibly cross into orbits (and obviously that orbits don't cross)

    All these assumptions can be proven to be wrong - and rather trivially.

    In one case this can be shown. Planetary orbits are extremely, extremely regular in the short term. This was useful for sea-faring when it was discovered as it provided a very accurate source of timing. And we still have the books from those days describing how those measurements worked. We still have books describing how to find a ship's position on earth by measuring the orbits of Jupiter's moons ... only they yield incorrect results. You might chalk that up to bad measurements, but that can't be : if the methods were truly useless, they would never have been written down. Plus we can correct the measurements so they work again. No, the reason is much simpler : Jupiter's moons have shifted so much over the course of 300 years that those me

    1. Re:Complexity theory by Alex+Belits · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The same can be said for pretty much advance in science in the last 50 years. If you're truly interested in what can and cannot be predicted - given correct models, there's a science studying that, complexity theory.

      There is more to science than messing with statistics in artificial environments.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    2. Re:Complexity theory by Ambitwistor · · Score: 2

      Climate models are based on thermodynamics and don't ignore entropy; they're not all simple energy balance models. It is true, however, that not as much attention is given to the numerics of correctly tracking entropy as to other aspects of the numerics.

      Likewise, climate models are based on fluid dynamics but don't assume all scales are the same; see sub-grid scale parameterizations (e.g., of turbulent ocean eddies in models that are too coarse to resolve them).

  23. Nothing Wrong With the Math by dupup · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The equation was not at fault: the output is only as good as the inputs. The real problem was the instruments being traded: credit default swaps. These are of dubious merit and much more complicated than more traditional underlying instruments (the thing on which you hold an option contract). For example, suppose you have an option to be 100 shares of Google at a given price. It's easy to evaluate the value of the underlying instrument because there's an efficient market for it: Google is traded on a public exchange and the value is agreed upon within a penny, generally. Black-Scholes works on Google options just fine and you can minimize your risk reasonable well using it.

    The credit default swaps were much more difficult to evaluate because of the lack of an efficient market for them. The essential nature of the underlying instrument were very high risk mortgages, not too different in concept from so-called junk bonds. The potential return was high because the interest rate was high. The potential risk was high because the risk of default was high, making the underlying instrument worth very little, much less than face value. So take these risky mortgages and then buy insurance policies for them, this is standard practice. That hedges the risk of the actual mortgage itself. Bundle the mortgage and the insurance policy up into a quasi-mutual fund like product: you have x number of mortgage/insurance policy bundles with average risk of default at y. Getting more difficult to put a value on, especially since there is no regulated exchange for them and little oversight.

    Not done yet. Add in that deregulation rules passed during the Clinton era allowed the banks that issue the mortgages and buy the insurance policies to also use their assets to trade on their own. This group within a group is called "proprietary trading". So, the prop-trading groups within the banks buy and sell the mortgages and insurance policies to each other in order to generate income for the bank. There are also other groups that buy and sell these instruments that don't actually issue mortgages. These are called speculative traders.

    Finally, to put the finishing touches on this pile of doo, have a group create a new instrument: a binary option (it does or it doesn't) on a bundle of high-risk mortgages and their insurance policies. A binary option is essentially a gamble: it pays out if something happens, it does not pay out if something doesn't happen. Now you're buying and selling options contracts which predict whether a group of mortgages will fail or not. There's no regulation, no formal exchange (which helps create market efficiency). There's no reliable way to determine the value of the underlying instrument because it depends on knowing how many of the mortgages will fail. And don't forget that the banks were using their investment customers to create demand for a product they wanted to sell ("I think you should invest in such-and-such") without telling the customers that the banks themselves would be profiting by selling questionable instruments to their own customers.

    This is the magic of unregulated capitalism (almost - the banks should have been allowed to fail in a purely unregulated capitalism system). Nothing wrong with Black-Scholes here. The real problem at the core is that the banks involved are so driven by short-term success that there is no room for sanity. Wrap it all up with the fact that the banks know they will be bailed out by the Feds if they fail. There is no penalty for risk and no regulatory oversight. Gotta have one or the other or we just plain deserve this insanity.

  24. Fake assets, meaningless equations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Except for one thing, the leverage ratio of Wallstreet has gone up and up, meaning that the ratio of borrowed money (created from thin air by the Fed) to real assets went up and up. So everyone in the game knew they were selling magic beans on a Ponzi scheme, but with so much commission being milked from the system nobody cared. After all it was the Fed that created the money and thus the people taking the risk was mostly Americans with dollar assets. The bonuses would be taken out long before these schemes collapsed, and all of that is free money to them. They're not risking their own assets, they're risking Fed magic money.

    The Fed recently said "we made a profit on the bailout loans". Let me show you why that's a scam:

    Fed lends $1 trillion against magic beans as collateral, at 0.01% interest to Bank. That money is magic money, created in a spreadsheet, as only the Fed can.
    Bank uses that money to buy a real asset that makes real profit.
    Bank borrows against the real asset, and replays the magic bean asset.
    The profit from the real asset pays the 0.01% interest.
    Fed chief claims to have made a profit on magic bean loans.

    The Fed doesn't want the loans repaid, it will keep swapping them for other types of loan each time people notice the scam, because to get the money repaid is deflation and USA cannot allow deflation.

    The only fix for these fake assets is to stop leverage loans from the Fed to Wallstreet, directly or indirectly (Fannie May, Freddie Mac, AIG etc.). If Wallstreet was risking its own assets then they wouldn't create fake ones sold with dubious equations.

    If you're real world business can't borrow more than 75% of concrete assets, then why would Wallstreet be able to borrow 35 times their assets, where the assets themselves are even known to be junk.

  25. Author William Poundstone pointed this out in 2005 by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 2

    I don't read a lot in my spare time, but one author I like is William Poundstone. I was going on an international trip and I wanted a book to take with me to read to kill time, so I bought his book _Fortune's Formula_. Essentially the book is about some Bell Labs geniuses who came up with mathematical models that allowed them first to make money at casinos and then to exploit weaknesses in the US stock market to make money. Scholes is featured in the book, but he's not a main character. I offer the following 2 quotes directly from the book which are on this very subject.

    "LTCM was simply in the position of a gambler who goes to a casino where the pit boss gives him unlimited credit." (page 283) Note that LTCM was the fund that Scholes helped run. The book further goes on to state that in real life, nobody gets truly "unlimited credit". A casino will not loan more money than they can collect. But LTCM's business model depended on credit never running out to them.

    "Warren Buffet marveled at how 'ten or 15 guys with an average IQ of maybe 170' could get themselves 'into a position where they can lose all their money.'" (page 291) It's a big simplification, but basically LTCM got burned by the Russian currency collapse which started a chain of events that killed them.

  26. Guessing is the problem by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

    The mathematical formula is not the problem. All it does is make it possible to get more exact about your guess as to what the future holds (based on your guesses about the actual values of things instead of the expected values). But math cannot predict the future any better than Tarot Cards can.

    1. Re:Guessing is the problem by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 1

      BS is not about predicting the future. BS, binomial,etc models enable you to establish a 'fair value' for an asset such as an option, based on various input parameters. Along with the fair value come various metrics which allow you to predict how that price may change for small moves in each of those parameters and to attempt to hedge, if desired, against said small moves.

      And just as in the housing market, 'fair value' does not necessarily equate to 'market value'.

  27. Re:A math model? That must be a fancy name for by superwiz · · Score: 1

    Falsifying documents in order to ensure loans for people with low income (as was your original claim)? No, I do not know of any such cases. Do you have a link? I would be genuinely curious to see one.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  28. when genius failed by ch-chuck · · Score: 1

    Great book about a massive hedge fund crash in the 90's: The Rise and Fall of Long Term Capital Management

    --
    try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
    1. Re:when genius failed by andy1307 · · Score: 2

      Scholes was one of the co-founders of LTCM.

  29. Bollocks by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 3, Informative

    BS had zero to do with any of the problems which led to the various market meltdowns. What did? Ignorance of liquidity (more precisely, lack of liquidity), counterparty risk, seriously flawed assumptions about various correlations (think gdp, unemployment, geography, subprime mortgages), significant excess leverage financed at exceptionally low interest rates, creation of intstruments which allowed some holders to game the system (credit default swaps) and lastly, ignorance and greed. There are, of course, myriad other contributors but BS is not one of them.

    Disclaimer: besides having a masters degree in computational finance I worked in the industry for nearly two decades.

    1. Re:Bollocks by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. This model is 40 years old now and has well-understood limitations. Any competent risk assessment process practice would include compensation for these risks.

      I think you left out the woeful performance on the ratings agencies as an important factor in your list of causes.

  30. We are taking about nothing ... by pumapunku · · Score: 1

    Every model is build upon some hypothesis. If you apply it without be aware of its limits it's your fault.

  31. Re:A math model? That must be a fancy name for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Superwiz, were you asleep over the past few years, or perhaps while'd it away playing shoot 'em up video games?

    It took me about two minutes to find the following. Note these are major news outlets with experienced financial reporters, not bloggers.

    Go ahead and forward my post to whichever banks you want.

    - OP

    http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2010/2010-59.htm

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-24/countrywide-sued-by-investors-in-mortgage-backed-securities.html

    http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/08/borrower-subprime-mortgage-loan-opinions-contributors-lenders.html

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-57387779/big-banks-could-face-mortgage-fraud-charges/

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ax3yON_uNe7I

  32. Not economics; theft. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 5, Interesting

    FRAUD ALERT: It was not a mathematical model that caused the problem. It was fraud. Financial organizations convinced investors that they had a "mathematical model" so that they could steal. The theft was ENTIRELY deliberate, as is described in detail in the 1997 book F.I.A.S.C.O.: Blood in the Water on Wall Street, by Frank Partnoy. Somehow the issues were kept quiet for 11 more years until the theft could be completed in the 2008 financial crash. Traders called their work "ripping the client's face off" .

    There are other editions of the book, such as this one published in 1999, Fiasco: The Inside Story of a Wall Street Trader, and a 2009 I-told-you-so edition of the original name.

    Nothing has been done to reform the extremely corrupt financial system in the United States. No one in the SEC, U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, the government organization that is supposed to police financial fraud, was prosecuted, even though the agency knew of the abuses. See the February 17, 2009 show Frontline: Inside the Meltdown.

    Even though the U.S. dollar is experiencing rampant inflation in 2012, U.S. banks give less than 1% interest on savings. Those who would like to invest can't because the system is so corrupt it cannot be trusted. Corporations hold unprecedented amounts of cash. See, for example, the October 7, 2010 Washington Post article, U.S. companies buy back stock in droves as they hold record levels of cash.

    F.I.A.S.C.O. stands for "Fixed Income Annual Sporting Clays Outing" (See page 100 of the 2009 edition.), held at a shooting range called "Sandanona, a club in upstate New York" (Page 97 of the 2009 edition). Traders would go there to shoot guns. The idea was to encourage their taste for violence so that they would be even more financially violent toward the customer.

    Perhaps the April 27, 2012 BBC article, Black-Scholes: The maths formula linked to the financial crash referenced in this Slashdot story was influenced by public relations agencies trying to get people to believe that the crash was caused by errors in mathematical thinking, and not by fraud, so that the financial industry can continue stealing.

    It would be helpful if Slashdot editors signed a statement about each story saying that they know of no conflict of interest, and no one was paid to run the story.

    1. Re:Not economics; theft. by BronsCon · · Score: 5, Funny

      So, you're saying it was the bankers' black souls, and not their Black-Scholes, that caused all of this?

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    2. Re:Not economics; theft. by jools33 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It amazes me that some people can see conspiracies everywhere. I've not posted a story before on slashdot - but it seems to me that you are seeing conspiracies where there are none. I have no relationship to the bbc - I don't live in Britain - and I have no interest in finance organizations - as a software engineer I design and write code for a living (and not for financial institutions). This article interested me from the perspective - that making false assumptions - and misuse of a formula or algorithm - can have unforeseen consequences beyond the original authors wildest dreams - which is what I find fascinating and the sole reason why I posted the story. I can guarantee you that I will not receive a single kronor (as I live in Sweden) for this article. I wonder how you think Slashdot editors are going to police the articles that get posted as you suggest. To my mind that kind of heavy editorial censorship would also be heavily criticised.

    3. Re:Not economics; theft. by stinerman · · Score: 4, Informative

      Even though the U.S. dollar is experiencing rampant inflation in 2012

      This is a false statement, unless you consider low single digits to be rampant.

      The CPI and BPP bear this out. The CPI is done by the government, so if there was enough of a conspiracy, they could conspire to keep the official numbers down. I don't think any alleged conspiracy could reach the BPP.

    4. Re:Not economics; theft. by wrook · · Score: 1

      I suspect the OP was mistakenly thinking about the devaluation of the US dollar against several other currencies (or perhaps against gold). At least that's how I interpreted it. Of course, that's not really inflation because you are measuring against a moving baseline, but it's a relatively easy mistake to make.

    5. Re:Not economics; theft. by flanktwo · · Score: 2

      Correct, it caused a financial black hole.

    6. Re:Not economics; theft. by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Jag har bott i Sverige under tillräcklig tid för att lära mig att man säger rättvist "jag ska inte få en enda krona", inte "kronor"... :)

      That being said, it appears that FuturePower(R) is attempting to introduce a false dichotomy into the discussion, as it's perfectly possible that (a) economists were using a fundamentally flawed model and (b) securities traders (like a lot of other "haves") have become hyper-greedy and increasingly ruthless and uncaring over the last couple of decades.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    7. Re:Not economics; theft. by jools33 · · Score: 1

      yeah well my language skills (outside of programming languages) have always sucked ;) , I also agree with your statement on the false dichotomy.

    8. Re:Not economics; theft. by autonomouse · · Score: 1

      Actually, it was because all the money disappeared into a supermassive Black-Schole

    9. Re:Not economics; theft. by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Do you really believe those numbers?

    10. Re:Not economics; theft. by Grumbleduke · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Shortly after acquiring a maths degree I was interviewed for a job in a certain major investment bank, to deal with their "really complex" deals. In preparation, I was given a bundle of notes on the maths behind trading, including the Black-Scholes 'formula'. It was quite interesting, essentially being an application of Brownian motion, with some fancy economic terms involved. So basically, the whole financial model is based on the fact that they have absolutely no idea whether stuff will get better or worse, so just add layer and layer of complexity to try to even it all out.

      Of course, that's only half the problem with the financial industries. I then actually went to the interview, and it turned out the job seemed to involve simply keeping an eye on spreadsheets to see what they're doing, rather than any actual maths. The person interviewing me (who would have been my boss's boss) clearly had no clue about any serious maths, or the differential equations underpinning his entire industry, but had a firm handshake and sounded confident.

      Needless to say I didn't get the job, nor want it. But it doesn't surprise me that there was a massive financial crisis - the whole sector seems little more than a confidence scam on the rest of society. "Give us your money and we'll make you more money."

    11. Re:Not economics; theft. by TheMathemagician · · Score: 1

      I've read FIASCO and it's an amusing memoir. However I think it's too simplistic to characterise the banks' behaviour as fraud. Unfortunately many corporate treasurers and other financial decision-makers were extremely ill-equipped to make derivatives transactions. Of course the banks made money on the deals but the counterparties were unable to understand and mitigate the risks. The "there's blood in the water" mentality was more about mis-selling than fraud and nothing whatsoever to do with Black-Scholes. The failure of Long-Term Capital Management was a huge failure of risk management and capital allocation as Scholes claims. Again it had nothing to with Black-Scholes. Their convergence trade wasn't even wrong but the extreme spread widenings triggered by the Russian default gobbled up all their money and meant they couldn't ride it out. Finally the bailouts of banks in the US and Europe were caused by simple bad loans. The fact they were packaged up and sliced-and-diced into CDOs doesn't change the underlying reality. You could argue it was a failure of Li's Copual pricing method but even that is somewhat unfair. When banks are making loans to people who are unlikely to repay them disaster cannot be averted.

    12. Re:Not economics; theft. by purpledinoz · · Score: 2

      After the 2008 crash, there was no deflation at all, which is what you would expect after a huge bubble bursts. The Fed pumped so much money into the system, the result was continued inflation rather than the deflation. And TARP was basically an extortion, which taxpayers will never get back in full. But who got this huge injection of printed money? The 1%. Basically, money was stolen from the 99%, via inflation, to further enrich the 1%. And take a look at the MF Global scandal, where $1.6B of customer money was STOLEN, with the order from the CEO, Jon Corzine. Guess who's not going to jail? I'm not saying there is a conspiracy, but when the rich are given a huge gift from the Fed and financial criminals are not prosecuted, something is seriously wrong with the system.

    13. Re:Not economics; theft. by purpledinoz · · Score: 1

      So when shit loans are packaged up, given a AAA stamp, then sold off to victims, this is not fraud? What's the difference between that and coating a bar of tungsten in gold, then selling it as if it was a pure gold?

    14. Re:Not economics; theft. by TheMathemagician · · Score: 1

      The difference is that they were signed off as AAA by the appropriate ratings agencies. Of course the banks were gaming the system and the agencies were clueless but they really were AAA bonds. Since the mugs who bought them were often bailed out (at par!) by the even more US clueless government you could argue that in a meta-sense they really were AAA quality.

  33. Re:A math model? That must be a fancy name for by bazorg · · Score: 1

    Like you say, accusing people of fraud is nasty... and I would add that if we think about it, it's also unnecessary. I don't know how things were over there in the USA, but in the UK during the boom years and until very recently people weren't committing fraud because they didn't even need to:

    According to the Financial Services Authority, nearly half of new mortgages between 2007 and the first quarter of 2010 were provided without the customer having to verify his/her income.

    Source

    So, it's a lot like GP poster said: more credit => higher house prices => more money for those who joined the game earlier.

  34. Re:Right by PPH · · Score: 1

    In a way, indirectly. B-S and Einstein gave engineers the confidence to predict the performance of a system. But their equations only account for performance under a narrow set of standard conditions. They didn't consider carefully enough what would happen if the underlying assumptions didn't always hold true.

    All too often, management takes the initial findings from the scientists, fires them and goes to market with a product. Without continuing to do R&D to support product improvement or find hidden bugs that will come back to bite them in the ass.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  35. Quote from the book: by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1, Informative

    For those who doubt the book F.I.A.S.C.O. is as intense as I said above, here's a quote from page 101:

    "As the quick-learning derivatives salesmen began to have more and more violent thoughts, the securities they sold became more violent, as well. In 1986 a typical salesman subscribed to Time or perhaps Playboy, played golf, and sold corporate and government bonds. By 1994 that same salesman read Soldier of Fortune and Guns and Ammo, shot doves, and sold leveraged-indexed-inverse-floating-dual-currency structured notes. This was no coincidence."

    1. Re:Quote from the book: by PCM2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So the book presents a hypothetical derivatives salesman (who doesn't exist), says he used to read Time but now he reads Guns and Ammo, and offers that it's no coincidence. Of course it's no coincidence; the same author made it all up! I do think there's lots wrong with Wall Street, but your book sounds like a bunch of sensationalist junk, frankly.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    2. Re:Quote from the book: by BlueScreenO'Life · · Score: 1

      Early example of spamdexing?

    3. Re:Quote from the book: by xded · · Score: 1
      You probably cannot judge a book reading a single catch phrase. Besides, quoting former Italian prime minister Giulio Andreotti:

      You sin in thinking bad about people - but, often, you guess right.

      (Especially when greed is involved.)

  36. Excess capital causes the boom and bust by stewartm0205 · · Score: 1

    There is just too much money and too little demand. The rich and corp have a lot of excess income because of the cuts in their tax rates. The excess money is more than what the poor and middle class can borrow. The result is that real interest rate is almost zero. So all of this excess money goes into speculation, just bidding up the price of some financial commodity. This creates the boom and bust that kills the economy. As long as the excess capital exist the boom and bust will continue and the economy will be grind down.

  37. Re:A math model? That must be a fancy name for by superwiz · · Score: 1

    Umm? Was that a misclick? You posted a story completely unrelated to any your claim that mortgage papers were falsified.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  38. Re:A math model? That must be a fancy name for by superwiz · · Score: 1

    Whenever I hear a claim that there are "many" case of something, I get suspicious when the speaker can't provide at least 1 or 2 examples. I am sorry, I am finding it difficult to take the word of an anonymous poster saying "but it happened to me". If this was wide-spread, then I am sure there has to be at least 1 case of it going to trial. That's all I asked for. 1 link to a documented fraud case. It's not that high a bar to set to support such extravagant claims.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  39. Re:A math model? That must be a fancy name for by jader3rd · · Score: 1

    Step 3 is selling to mortgage to Fannie and Freddie, who were instructed by Congress to buy every mortgage they could, regardless of the safety of the mortgage. Congress wanted their constituents to have houses and reward their Congress members for creating a system that would allow them to have a house. You reelect your Congressman and Congress makes it possible for you to own a house, every body is happy. With Fannie and Freddie buying every piece of crap they could lay their hands on, what would prevent a banker from making horrible mortgages?

  40. Warren Buffett called derivatives "time bombs". by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 5, Informative

    In the Berkshire Hathaway 2002 Annual Report (PDF file), Warren Buffett said this on page 13:

    "Derivatives
    Charlie and I are of one mind in how we feel about derivatives and the trading activities that go with them: We view them as time bombs, both for the parties that deal in them and the economic system."

    From page 14:

    "I can assure you that the marking errors in the derivatives business have not been symmetrical. Almost invariably, they have favored either the trader who was eyeing a multi-million dollar bonus or the CEO who wanted to report impressive "earnings" (or both). The bonuses were paid, and the CEO profited from his options. Only much later did shareholders learn that the reported earnings were a sham."

    On page 15:

    "In our view, however, derivatives are financial weapons of mass destruction, carrying dangers that, while now latent, are potentially lethal." [my emphasis]

    Warren Buffett, the world's most famous investor, published that in 2003. It was widely reported. No one can say the fraud was unknown, or that the present severe economic problems are due to a faulty mathematical formula.

    1. Re:Warren Buffett called derivatives "time bombs". by mSparks43 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but a major player in the Fraud was a bessy mate of the Queen (Sir Fred Goodwin), making her lots of tax off poor folk to keep her Corgies in gold plated bowls, so of course the Beeb is going to find anything to blame but the people who did it.

    2. Re:Warren Buffett called derivatives "time bombs". by marnues · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or, with a different twisted view, derivatives were thought to be helpful by those who have done an otherwise fantastic job of dealing with the complex nightmare of the finance world. That they turned out to cause a catastrophe is more about our collective failure to understand the problem and heed the advice of the few against the resounding successes the stock market gave all of us. We were awash in wealth from the lowly home-owner with a mortgage only sustained by constant economic grow to the financier receiving another multi-million dollar bonus. Only those who had no need for continued success could view the situation with cold logic and real understanding, but they were telling us something we didn't want to hear.

    3. Re:Warren Buffett called derivatives "time bombs". by GlobalEcho · · Score: 1

      Charlie and I are of one mind in how we feel about derivatives and the trading activities that go with them: We view them as time bombs, both for the parties that deal in them and the economic system."

      Ah, yes. That would be the same Warren Buffet who traded over $37 billion of those very same derivatives (p.19) just prior to the 2008 crisis, in addition to selling even more esoteric tax-free bond insurance contracts.

      No one can say the fraud was unknown, or that the present severe economic problems are due to a faulty mathematical formula.

      I agree with you that the formula is not to blame. I don't think one should (implicitly or explicitly) assume there was much in the way of fraud -- that way lies conspiracy kookiness. Derivatives simply helped exacerbate a real estate bubble. Do you recall the endless conversations with all sort of ordinary people about the brilliance of their real estate investments? I sure do.

    4. Re:Warren Buffett called derivatives "time bombs". by CodeBuster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No one can say the fraud was unknown

      It's not fraud as long as the liabilities created by the derivatives are reported on the balance sheet. The liabilities may be difficult to quantify, but as long as they're disclosed the diligent investor can decide for themselves how they're going to respond. What Buffet was saying was that it was very difficult, in his opinion, to estimate the risks in these complex derivatives transactions and Warren Buffet is well known for refusing to invest in things which he either doesn't understand or cannot reliably quantify (his avoidance of high tech investments are another example of this). Just because an investment is high risk or because foolish investors don't or cannot understand the risks that they're really taking doesn't make it fraud. This is an important distinction that's often lost upon the Occupy people and those who decry "preditory lending" or "cutthroat capitalism". Personally, I agree with Buffet and don't invest in futures or derivatives because I don't understand them. Indeed, I suspect that few people, even among professional traders, actually do. So when someone tells me that they fully understand all of the risks associated with their derivatives trade I know that they're either a savant or a liar. However, just because an investment is complex and risky (the two often go hand in glove) doesn't automatically make it fraudulent. As with most things in life, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

    5. Re:Warren Buffett called derivatives "time bombs". by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Warren Buffett, the world's most famous investor, published that in 2003

      So? He's published a lot of things in his annual reports, at least one of them was bound to end up being an accurate predictor of the future. (Or at least close enough to be cited as if it were.)

  41. Re:A math model? That must be a fancy name for by Relayman · · Score: 1

    Here's one reference, there are many more. We had one in Ohio where a woman on welfare ended up owning several homes unknown to her. She only found out when the mortgages in her name went bad. No, this was not identity theft, she signed the papers. She just didn't understand what she was signing.

    Link to article

    --
    If I used a sig over again, would anyone notice?
  42. Re:A math model? That must be a fancy name for by PCM2 · · Score: 1

    He's right, though. Stories about fraudulent loan applications are so common that if you haven't read any, you must not read the news.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aN2DPRuRs93M

    --
    Breakfast served all day!
  43. It's still all data by PantherSE · · Score: 1

    When I took statistics in college my didn't put so much emphasis on whether we knew the formulas our not, he cared more whether we were able to argue our interpretation of the numbers. He told us that computers and calculators will do a better job of crunching the numbers for us, but it will never be able to do what a human does best: interpret that data based on facts, morals and experience. Most important is the moral judgement. I believe that the market failed because of the lack of moral fortitude of enough people in the market sector.

  44. Failure to pay attention to the big blue room by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Aside from the greed, fraud, etc. one of the noteworthy things about the crash was the failure of so many "smart" people to pay attention to the real world.

    When cafeteria lunch ladies are taking out $500k mortgages with 1% teaser rates to buy 5 bedroom mansions, plainly something is up. Only a few people stepped out from behind the monitors and paid attention.

    A lot of us knew it was a bubble and felt trapped. My particular situation involved having my father pass away and inheriting half the house. I felt like I had to buy a smaller house that cost too much. I knew the bubble would burst, but I didn't know when it would burst. I could have been "left in the dust" if prices quadrupled from there. That's how it is with bubbles. You. Just. Don't. Know.

    As it turned out, it was the peak of the bubble. The closing to sell my father's house was surreal--a 1% teaser from Countrywide, the closing bilingual Spanish-English. The house sold for $550k, and was eventually foreclosed at $400k. I ended up buying something for $290k and selling it at $260k a few years later. I fared better than many.

  45. Everyone should watch this. by koan · · Score: 1

    Everyone should watch this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtJql2aqjkw

    The making of the financial mess Wall Street started. Clinton, Bush and Obama sold us out by hiring these criminals to look out for the best interest for Americans.
    Category:

    News & Politics
    Tags:

                    financial collapse
                    wall street
                    white collar crime

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  46. Re:A math model? That must be a fancy name for by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

    Fannie and Freddie purchased mortgages, but this had nothing to do with the financial collapse because these agencies were backstopped by the US Treasury which was capable of withstanding the losses.

    It is the purchase of mortgages by private banks who then went insolvent and thus froze up the lending system that led to the financial collapse.

    In addition the quality of loans purchased by Freddie and Fannie were considerably better than those bought by private banks with much higher FICO credit scores.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/01/17/wall-street-not-fannie-and-freddie-led-mortgage-meltdown.html

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805090460/thedaibea-20/

  47. the history of financial bubbles predates by decora · · Score: 2

    myron scholes or any of the other tools that enabled the 2008 crash, including CDOs, securitization, etc.

    Edwrd Chancellor has a much, much more accurate , and scientific approach to crises - and that is to catalog and record them and their details, going back to Tulipmania and before. His book "Devil take the hindmost" came out before the 2008 crash, but basically what he is doing is proving that History is much more of a 'science' than economics --- at least in History, they try to gather actual data before making theories, and throw out the theories when the facts dont match.

    the various attempts to 'blame math' for the crash of 2008 are little more than attempts to cover up the massive fraud that was perpetrated on the taxpayers of the planet. you make a huge amount of horrible loans to people you know cannot pay them back, resell the loans to people and lie about it, then get the government to bail you out when the whole system is about to collapse. you dont need a formula to do that, it is the basic feature of every economic bubble and its bursting. Fraud.

    the difference here is that the fraudsters have completely made an end run around all the rules implemented after the 1929 crash to prevent this sort of thing, they practically own the politicians that are supposed to regulate them, and they insinuate themselves into positions of power in the political class. thats the difference - that we are actually regressing backwards in our civilization, and having the free market run less well than it did previously, and watching entrepenurial capitalism die a nasty death by its own supposed proponents.

  48. There was a whole episode of NOVA about this... by RichardtheSmith · · Score: 1

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/stockmarket/

    Unfortunately you can't stream it anywhere.

    But the BBC adapted it with re-recorded narration, and it's right over here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4auzn4bK1bM

    Remember, this was all stuff we knew about in the late 90's.

    The only interesting question is, did we fail to learn the lessons from LTCM, or did we learn the wrong ones?

    1. Re:There was a whole episode of NOVA about this... by SnickleFritz · · Score: 1

      Glad someone else remembers this. I was going to link to it too.

      It was a good NOVA episode. It keeps coming up after the recent TED talk about automated trading.

      Kevin Slavin: How algorithms shape our world.
      https://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/kevin_slavin_how_algorithms_shape_our_world.html

  49. Lead versus led - where are the good editors by BudAaron · · Score: 2

    I will lead someone to the water - present tense. I led him to the water - past tense. Lead is also a metal but it is NOT pronounced the same as in the context mentioned earlier. So the headline should read "The Math Formula That Led To the Financial Crash" - as in past tense. And the sentence in the article should read "...and widespread adoption led to Myron Scholes..." - again past tense of lead.

  50. they knew the risks, they didnt care by decora · · Score: 1

    investment bank after investment bank, hedge fund after hedge fund, saw that this whole thing was a risky load of shit, and they actively moved to profit from the collapse, even at the expense of their own institutions. CEOs like Dick Fuld actively demoted and ignored internal critics, and walked away with millions after their companies disappeared into a puff of smoke.

    The guys on the CDO desks at these places, not one or two, not a handful, not a dozen. Dozens. Dozens of them, made billions of dollars. Why should they care if it blew up? They were making bonuses based on 'future profits' calculated back to the present based on these shitty loans. They colluded with the ratings agencies to lie about the quality of the loans.

    Then they made the taxpayers fix it all.

    Where is the 'black swan'? Fraud is not a black swan, fraud is endemic to human nature and to financial bubbles.

    Taleb is fine but here are some other books about the actual mechanics of the fraud

    Colossal Failure of Common Sense, Lawrence McDonald

    Sellout, Charles Gasparino

    Trillion Dollar Meltdown, Charles R Morris

    Fool's Gold, Gillian Tett

    All the Devils are Here, Bethany McLean and Joe Nocera

    Structure Finance and CDOs, Janet Tavakoli

    House of Cards, William Cohan

    Greatest Trade Ever, Zuckerman

    The Big Short, Michael Lewis.

    EConned, Yves Smith

  51. extremely misleading by decora · · Score: 1

    your list is full of 'didnt understands'.

    but there were a huge number of people who understood it perfectly well.

    they get fat bonuses quarter after quarter for delivering 'results' that they knew were BS. they dont care. they keep on doing it.

    the ratings agencies purposely colluded with the investment banks to lie about the ratings of CDOs. it wasnt 'they didnt understand', it was that they understood and were making too much money to care. their profit margins in these years came from CDO ratings. they actively stopped people inside their organizations who were pointing out the obvious flaws in the models.

    AIG itself stopped the game a year before the thing began to crash. And yet, the Monoline insurance companies picked up where AIG left off. the idea that everyone 'didnt understand' does not make sense. Plenty of people understood. They just didnt care. its called fraud.

  52. guess thats why you cant bring yourself by decora · · Score: 1

    to use the word "Fraud", "Theft", "Corruption", or any of the other nasty things that 'greed' is a euphemism for.

    1. Re:guess thats why you cant bring yourself by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 1

      FYI, greed is not illegal.

  53. Slashdot often runs articles that raise suspicion. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    I guess you don't know Slashdot well. Here are comments on other articles that raise suspicion. Judge for yourself from these 3:

    Nuclear Energy Now More Expensive Than Solar

    Brains Work Best At Age of 39

    The Painkiller That Saves Money But Costs Lives

  54. pepperbrot by SenorPr0n · · Score: 1

    Mr. Mandelbrot

    DR MANDELBROT

    1. Re:pepperbrot by Andy_R · · Score: 1

      Dr. Benoît B. Mandelbrot. The B. stands for 'Benoît B. Mandelbrot'

      --
      A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
    2. Re:pepperbrot by martin-boundary · · Score: 1
      And he wasn't the father of quantitative analysis in any meaningful sense (*).

      (*) That would be somewhat like saying Feynman was the father of calculus.

  55. those guys started new funds, and got more money by decora · · Score: 2

    the thing about the LTCM is that the guys that ran it got jobs in the industry, again, and they proceeded to destroy even more money, and then they did it again and again and again.

    people say that capitalism 'weeds out the non performers' but when you look at the history of places like LTCM, its bullshit. its a big old boy network where people like Dick Fuld do not get busted down to street sweeper - they get to sit on millions of dollars of other peoples money, forever, with no prosecution of any kind. guys fail and fail and fail, over and over, and they keep getting jobs in the industry.

    there are people who commit blatant frauds who keep getting spots in the industry too, over and over and over. The SEC and the other federal agencies then are supposed to regulate, but their top officers routinely get hired away by these companies they are supposed to be regulating at huge salaries as 'consultants' and lobbyists.

  56. mod this up for fucks sake by decora · · Score: 1

    this is one of the few posts to get it right. it was a fucking ponzi scheme, not some 'oh woops sorry' miscalculation by math guys.

    as for the Fed bailout, it wasnt just a bunch of loans. there are an alphabet soup of programs the Fed set up to 'shore up' the banking system in 2008. there are literally at least a dozen programs they set up, each working in a different fashion and targeted at a different piece of the industry that was failing.

    but the other side of this argument is its just more BS to lie to people about. they can claim that they 'payed the TARP money back', but that doesnt mention ANY of the other programs and the massive, huge losses the taxpayers took in bailing out these banks.

    the AIG Credit Default swap deal being a prime example - you, the taxpayer, payed Goldman Sachs 100% of the 'face value' of the CDS that AIG wrote against a bunch of crappy CDOs. Those CDS were not woth but maybe a few pennies, like 1-10% of their face value. but we taxpayers were forced to pay 100%. Thats a 90% rip off. And the guys who did this running Treasury and the Fed were former Goldman people, like Hank Paulson. if its not conflict of interest i dont know what is. And, by the way, it has come out recently that he TOLD his hedge fund buddies what was going on, 'outside of the loop' of his normal job as Tres Sec. He put his banker friends before the American people.

  57. thats not the reason by letherial · · Score: 2

    I have a hard time believing it was math. Why? because nobody was doing math. You cannot gamble on a massive market built on giving people loans who cannot pay for those loans and not have a crash; the math doesnt work.

    It is greed that was responsible for this, greed and selfishness; mainly the banks, but some home owners as well. While its great to try and point the blame at some mathematical abstract theory, it doesnt help bring light to the true problem and that is a culture of greed that always finds a way to skirt around the rules. They are like a kid figuring a way to get daddys gun, but when they shoot themselves in the foot, they blame it on the gun, the bullet, the firing chamber, or the trigger, not once do they look at the dumb idea of playing with the gun in the first place.

  58. Oh bullcrap and bull-revisionism by sgt_doom · · Score: 1
    The ultra-leveraged bankster run which also occurred back in the 1920s (when securitization also exploded back then, but curtailed with the passage of the Securities Act of 1933), simply was replayed --- but this time around, they are doing back-to-back ultra-leveraged bankster runs, resarting again around 2009/2010, and it don't look good.....

    All the revisionistic bullcrap changes nothing....

  59. because youd have to put people in jail by decora · · Score: 1

    very nice people, who are very well spoken and have very nice suits, and give huge, huge amounts of money to political campaigns.

    you dont talk bad about the nice people in the nice suits.

    they stole a trillion dollars from the taxpayer. they are stealing more as we speak. but do not say this out loud. your journalism career will be rather short.

  60. Ridiculous by Mark_in_Brazil · · Score: 1

    It's ridiculous to blame the Black-Scholes model, the Black-Scholes equation, or the Black-Scholes formulas. There are two groups of individuals responsible for the crash, even if the corporate press refuses to acknowledge it: bank executives who knowingly did ridiculously risky things and the ratings agencies that gave them the cover to do it. It's also ridiculous to refer to the crash as the "subprime crisis," because the problem most definitely was not subprime mortgages. The sum total of all the subprime mortgages was on the order of a few hundred million dollars, but the damage done by the crash was in the tens of trillions of dollars. The bailout of 2008 amounted to over one-and-a-half trrillion dollars, which was enough to pay off all the subprime mortgages several times over, and yet it didn't solve the problem.

    Let's start with the ratings agencies. With winks and nudges to their friends running the banks, the people at the ratings agencies gave ratings of AAA, which means "as close to risk-free as you can get," to packages of mortgages in which they knew many were "subprime" and many, many more had been given by unethical lenders (who later sold them off in packages) who did not check the ability of their customers to pay. In some cases, the AAA rating was even extended to complex derivatives based on the mortgage packages, despite the fact that the people at the ratings agencies didn't understand those derivatives well enough to give a rating at all. It's worth mentioning that among those customers were many middle-class and wealthy individuals counting on the obviously unsustainable growth of real estate prices in the US market so they could take out mortgages to buy properties, hold on to them for 6-18 months, and then "flip" them for a huge profit. Also among them were many companies. So don't go blaming the lower-middle-class and poor holders of "subprime" mortgages, who only represented a small fraction of the number of bad mortgages. Anyway, a rating like AAA should only be given to things that are as risk-free as a government bond. Since wealthy people and economists love to talk about there being "no such thing as a free lunch," it's worth pointing out that that idea is a basic principle used in things like pricing assets. In that context, it's called the "no-arbitrage principle." Arbitrage basically means "risk-free profit." The idea behind the no-arbitrage principle is that if there were an opportunity for risk-free profit, somebody would have already taken advantage of it and driven prices to the point where the opportunity no longer existed. In today's world of high-frequency trading, the no-arbitrage principle actually works pretty well. A classic example of arbitrage would be a stock that's sold in two different exchanges. If the price is lower in one and you can buy it quickly enough, then sell it quickly enough in the other exchange, where it's worth more, then you can make a profit with basically no risk. The thing is that if anyone notices and tries to do that, it drives up the price (buy increasing demand) in the exchange where the price was lower and brings the price down (by increasing supply) in the exchange where the price was higher. The prices are thus driven rapidly toward equilibrium. And in fact a crucial step in the derivation of the Black-Scholes equation is an application of the no-arbitrage principle, equating a risk-free return to the rate paid by government bonds.

    Additionally, when heads had to roll at the banks for, y'know, breaking the world economy, you know the execs wanted to protect themselves and their own and put all the blame on their quantitative analysts, but they couldn't because the quants had done a good job of covering their own asses by sending e-mails to their superiors warning that there were all kinds of risks not being controlled or managed, and that there were even new risks introduced by modeling that could lead to problems. So the execs were fully aware that they were trading in assets tha

    --
    "It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner
  61. your arrogance is beaten only by your ignorance by decora · · Score: 2

    "Whoah, cowboy! "falsifying documents" is fraud. Fraud is a crime. Making a false accusation a crime in writing is libel. Slashdot's policy is that "all comments are owned by the poster." I do hope you got something to back up the "falsifying" claim. Otherwise, some "bankster" or such just might get annoyed enough to go after you.... cause you know... he might have a case."

    There are numerous documented cases of fraud. The robo-signing scandal is just a huge, massive fraud. Read any of the crisis books, they are full of pictures of fraudulent documents being created.

    Your bit about 'insurance' is hilarious. The industry itself pushed to make Credit Default Swaps not be considered 'insurance', even though tons of journalists will later describe them as 'insurance' because the only other way to describe them is to call them 'gambling bets'. But they are not regulated like insurance, specifically because the industry pushed the NY state insurance commission to exclude them from such regulations.

    Please just stop lying. We are not stupid, and we can read books. just stop lying.

  62. worse even than you think by bzipitidoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Fraud is a big problem, but not the worst problem. I've grown concerned that we're all engaged in mass delusion. We think the world works a particular way, but we may be wrong. We can produce what seems to be supporting evidence. I am referring to a much more fundamental idea of finance: the formulas for rates. They're neat and simple, and wrong. Implicit in compound interest is exponential growth. The universe doesn't support exponential growth.

    Historically, depending on who you talk to, the stock market has averaged an annual rate of return of 7% or 10% or even more. But that record is only about 100 years long. Can the stock market keep up 7% growth for another 100 years? If it can, how about 1000 years?

    --
    Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
  63. Magic Formulas by dgharmon · · Score: 1

    Black-Scholes a rehash of a formula derived from physics, as derived from differential equations as derived from Newton and Leibniz (1675)

    --
    AccountKiller
  64. Statistically sound... reality impaired by Just+Brew+It! · · Score: 2

    Black-Scholes is sound in a statistical/mathematical sense. Unfortunately it makes implicit assumptions about how the market operates that simply aren't true, so it was bound to fail. Financial engineers -- and I use the word "engineers" loosely here! -- accepted the assumptions as gospel because their jobs/bonuses depended on it.

    I used to work in that industry. It will be a cold day in Hell before I go back.

    The only way to prevent another train wreck is to remove the incentives for "too big to fail" banks to take unreasonable risks with other peoples' money, based on the assumption that the government will bail them out if things go badly.

    1. Re:Statistically sound... reality impaired by LienRag · · Score: 1

      Actually, I can understand how banks may be "too big to fail". But I don't understand why banksters would be "too big to go to jail" or at least "too big to go bankrupt" (if stupidity, not fraud, was the problem)? Why do the bailed-out banks keep the same owners and top management? In Houari Boumediene's Algeria stealing money from the state above a trigger amount was a capital offense, since in prevented state investments that would have saved lives; With more than one billion dollars gone, would'nt it be of some justice that some high level managers and shareholders would have an appointment with the Chair? I'm sure the mathematical conditions of validity for mathematical models to be used would be more thoroughly checked after a few examples would be made...

    2. Re:Statistically sound... reality impaired by Just+Brew+It! · · Score: 1

      Yes, lack of accountability is a big part of the problem. Top executives' rewards are not tied closely enough to long-term performance, and they are rarely punished when they screw up.

  65. Mixing things together in the story by hughbar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Actually reading through the BBC story, I feel it's yet another example of the BBC's declining grasp of anything technical. Long term capital management called into question Black-Scholes and demonstrated extreme events in markets, sure. But the elements of the recent crash were also to do with greed, arrogance, mis-selling [of mortgages that were then securitised in un-auditable and therefore un-priceable mixtures] bad-fatih [banks selling both complex derivatives AND insurance for the failure of these complex derivatives] and a general credit-bubble that distorted asset pricing. Michael Lewis' the Big Short: http://www.amazon.com/The-Big-Short-Doomsday-Machine/dp/0393072231 is very good on the detail of this.

    Then, because the firewalls between speculation and retail banking had been removed, there was a great deal of general contagion and bank to bank movements froze.

    However, one can't conclude that all mathematical pricing is wrong from these two separate events. One can reach conclusions regulation, capital adequacy, firewalls etc/ Above all, if the public is well protected and genuine industry is well protected, these idiots [of which I was one once] can do what they like and then suffer the consequences.

    --
    On y va, qui mal y pense!
    1. Re:Mixing things together in the story by LienRag · · Score: 1

      Basically, it's simply that since computers have been used by people without a rigorous mathematical people, the old theorem crap in - crap out has been forgotten. There has been greed and fraud, but what had made a cover for it is that most people that do not understand the maths involved in complex models don't dare to at least challenge the validity of the hypothesis upon which the model is build.

    2. Re:Mixing things together in the story by LienRag · · Score: 1

      (oooops! - mathematical people /mathematical background)

  66. Reality intrudes by cvtan · · Score: 1
    Two comments:

    1) This formula only works if few people use it.

    2) Math formulae don't bankrupt people. Only people bankrupt people.

    --
    Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
  67. Re:It is the investor's responsibility by micheas · · Score: 2

    No, but selling neg am mortgages to to homeowners was fraud.

    Selling neg-am mortgages to developers that have all their permits ready to go for construction is providing a service.

    The fact that the statute of limitations on TILA(truth in lending act) fraud is three years tollable to four years and the neg am mortgages blowing up on the homeowner in 4.5 years on average is the result of bipartisan support for the fraud.

    The only fair way to clean up the foreclosure mess is to allow bankruptcy judges to on a case by case basis, restructure home loans so that as many creditors get paid and people can keep their homes.

    The disincentives for fraud in bankruptcy court are extreme. (the court can claw back all the concessions, your creditors made, keep you from filing bankruptcy again, and send you to jail)

    The regulations about short selling is primarily that the client has to agree, in an unequivocal way, that the understand that there is unlimited downside risk, no limit to how much you can lose. once the client agrees to that, then you can dream up what ever scheme you and the client want.

    Informed consent just does not happen at the retail level in finance and the courts are unwilling to face that fact.

  68. Re:A math model? That must be a fancy name for by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

    > The US Treasury and the Fed bailed out both of them. Your distinction is driven by political ideology.

    Nonsense. The idea that the economic crash is due to Freddie and Fanny has been debunked many times including in the links I posted plus many more. Many conservative economists know that it is a wrong idea. Even the Republican members of the congressional commission that investigated it know it to be false.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-21/romney-gingrich-bid-to-pin-crisis-on-government-ignores-culprits.html

    Tell me - what did Freddie and Fanny have to do with the collapse of Lehman, the event everyone points to as the beginning of the collapse?

    And what culpability do the banks have for selling flat out fraudulent mortgages to F&F?

    http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20120222/REAL_ESTATE/120229979

  69. The BBC should stick to cheerleading for Hamas by gelfling · · Score: 1

    And leave the actual news to others. Black-Scholes is fine. The current breed of quants use models that are orders of magnitude more complex than black-Scholes. In fact one need only go back to ENRON to understand that a big part of the problem was caused by tertiary and quaternary derivatives that no one not even their creators understood.

    Another rarely discussed problem is HFT - high frequency trading, which is where 75-80% of the market churn is. That's a trading universe that exists below the 650 millisecond threshold. Those are trades that beneath the limit of human interaction or notice. A couple of years ago there was something called the Flash Crash where the market for no explicable reason, dropped 500+ points in a matter of seconds. Research after the fact tells us that HFT models behaved entirely the way they were supposed to. But what they were designed to do was wrong. The nature of HFT means that a whole ecology of trading exists w/o people knowing what it's doing.

    B-S is a tiny tiny tiny piece of the puzzle.

  70. Re:It is the investor's responsibility by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

    Informed consent just does not happen at the retail level in finance and the courts are unwilling to face that fact.

    People want to be treated as independent adults in this world and yet they want the government to stand behind them and wipe their collective asses. Give me a break. The lesson here is that ignorance is a relatively expensive luxury these days.

  71. Re:It is the investor's responsibility by tgibbs · · Score: 1

    How about: no regulations, no bailouts.

    No regulations? So if I decide that I can't pay my debts, I can just announce that I am defaulting, free of those pesky regulations that might enable my creditors to attach my assets or garnish my wages.

  72. Re:A math model? That must be a fancy name for by superwiz · · Score: 1

    I didn't say he was wrong. I simply asked to see a report of a documented claim. Your link definitely did that. Thanks. It made for an interesting read. Certainly such fraud does hurt both borrowers, the creditors and the homeowners at large. I hope whoever committed this fraud does serve time. Doing due diligence is pretty much the S&L bankers' main job. If they not only dropped the ball on it, but actually falsified the numbers, that's no different from just plainly stealing money out of your employer's cash register.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  73. Nothing wrong with Black-Scholes by AlejoHausner · · Score: 3, Informative
    Actually, the Black-Scholes formula is innocent. Sure, it assumes that stock movements follow a standard distribution, but that's not as big a sin as is being made out in the article. The formula computes the fair price for an option contract. Such a contract gives its owner the right (or "option") to buy or sell some asset up to a future date (the expiry date), at some given price (the "strike" price). The formula uses the following values:

    1. The time remaining until the contract expires
    2. The current price of the undelying asset
    3. The strike price (the contract gives its buyer the right or "option" to buy the asset at the strike price)
    4. The risk-free rate of return on cash (return that could be earned by putting your money into, say, treasuries rather than stock)
    5. The volatility of the underlying asset.

    At the time the contract is written, the first four of these values are known (assuming of course that the risk-free rate stays constant, which is pretty close to a sure bet). The LAST value is the problem. It says how much the stock will fluctuate, between the present time and the time of expiry. This is unknown, because, after all, it requires knowledge of the future. Usually, PAST volatility is used in its place, going with the assumption that the stock will behave in the future the same way it behaved in the recent past.

    If the stock suddenly becomes very quiet, and stops fluctuating, the buyer payed too much for the contract, on average. If the stock gets very wild, the buyer got a bargain, on average. In either case, the contract buyer and seller guessed wrong. They should have used a different volatility to price the option.

    Of course, stock fluctuations do NOT follow a normal curve, after all. And option traders do NOT follow Black-Scholes exactly either (see "volatility smile"). But the much bigger flaw, I think, is lack of clairvoyance. The formula requires knowledge of the future.

  74. Re:It is the investor's responsibility by micheas · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Does it enter into it that the sales people targeted people likely to have a lack of financial knowledge?

    I know of no DINK (dual income no kids) households that entered into neg-am loans. I know of lots of single women, and people that were have minimal English skills (enough to get by, but not enough to understand a legal contract, whether because of lack of education, or English being a second language that they had not yet mastered.)

    The real idiots are the investment managers that bought the Asset Back Securities. Those people should be barred from managing anyone else's finances under any situation, and probably have their own assets put in a receivership for their own protection, a la Britney Spears.

    Reforming the bankruptcy laws so people can keep their primary residence requires repealing existing law, not creating more law.

  75. Re:A math model? That must be a fancy name for by VortexCortex · · Score: 2

    Whoah, cowboy! "falsifying documents" is fraud. Fraud is a crime. Making a false accusation a crime in writing is libel.

    I know several people in the compliance area of the Mortgage industry that document everything they do to cover their asses because they seriously suspect that the way the companies they work for are doing things is fraudulent. Of primary concern is having unlicensed loan origination AND processing illegally outsourced to India. The compliance managers tell their higher ups that what they're doing is probably wrong, but they don't care; They're yes men. The bosses are business men making deals trying to make things happen and they don't ACTUALLY know what's legally required. In fact, one of their bosses is a here on a visa, from India, and doesn't care if they get shut down -- He's working another more lucrative project for their parent company -- If it all goes south, he doesn't care, he still has his cushy job back in his homeland's main offices.

    I'm seriously not trying to diss Indians: Nationality has nothing to do with it at all. This may not be representative of the whole industry, but I can't prove that -- I'm just telling you like I hear it is for the people that I know -- And letting you know that fraud IS STILL HAPPENING, and the accusations are not libel unless you name names and it happens to be a false accusation (in my case it's certainly NOT libel).

    My friend's bosses won't take the advice to seek attorneys' legal opinions before making the crazy deals or restructuring agreements because that would likely prove they knew full well they were wrong (and it also costs money). They believe they're cunning business men who can find a way to cut corners and beat a system which the government has done its best to remove corners from. The larger companies that buy and sell and do business contracts with such smaller companies are some of the biggest international banks in the world. In the past five years, one of my friend's companies has been bought four times. The regulations require that the new corporate owners disclose their identities, so they instead play games with their corporate structures instead of doing things the right way -- The investment group doesn't want to be fingerprinted and have their names associated with the mortgage companies under their actual control -- That should tell you something right there...

    Furthermore, when a state orders an exam, their document repositories hardly ever have all the correct info because the over seas people completing the loans and filing the forms try to manipulate closing dates and so they can get bigger bonuses in a given window -- Except they're sloppy and don't go back and update the info in the Calyx point system they use. As a programmer I've offered many times that the computer system should prevent them from closing the loans unless all the pertinent details are in the system -- But a large part of the industry still relies heavily on Faxes! Electronic signatures would be preferable, but even those are frequently used incorrectly.

    One of my friends said that frequently, Upon pulling a set of docs for a loan, the lender's name won't even be on the form! It's not that it never was, or that the loan has no lender -- Just that someone (in India) didn't care enough about their job to go back and scan in the form and add it to the file before closing it. My friend has been complaining to me about incomplete forms for over three years -- Apparently the manager can't get their employees to do the job correctly -- They do all sorts of other document processing as well since it's a sister company that operates primarily as an outsourcing business, and what's a few incorrect forms here and there?

    Each of my friends has worked for several other companies, and their past businesses have all eventually gone under due to regulatory fines for non compliance and inability to create new loans for want of valid state licenses as their only legal loan origi

  76. Price increases are far more than interest rates. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 3, Informative

    U.S. dollar inflation, some examples:

    Food, +4.8% -- Food Price Outlook, 2012
    Quote: "The food-at-home Consumer Price Index (CPI), in turn, increased more than expectedâ"4.8 percent in 2011â"which means that food price inflation was not as strong as in 2008 when it increased 6.4 percent over 2007."

    Medical treatment, +8.5% -- Medical cost trends for 2012
    "This year's report from PwC's Health Research Institute finds that the medical cost trend is expected to increase from 8% in 2011 to 8.5% in 2012."

    University tuition, +8.3% -- College costs climb, yet again.
    "Tuition at the average public university jumped 8.3% to $8,244."

    Gas, +208% -- Historical Price Charts

  77. Nonsense. There were many fraudulent claims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    One was the claim that the sellers understood what they were selling and its risks.

    Another was that they were selling something they thought was in their client's best interests (often the opposite is the case.)

    Another was that they sold things they were actively betting against, and trying to create a climate in which these failures would result in windfall profits to them.

    Read Gretchen Morgenson, and others. The fix was and is in.

  78. Re:Price increases are far more than interest rate by u38cg · · Score: 1

    Those are increases driven by fundamentals; principally, the fact that the oil is running out. Apart from college tuition: now that's a scam.

    --
    [FUCK BETA]
  79. New jobs by NewYork · · Score: 1

    Did Black-Scholes formula create new jobs in the economy?

  80. MIT biz prof Andrew Lo's simpler explanation by peter303 · · Score: 1

    He says the collateralized debt tranches were computed assuming bad debt was independent and infrequent events. You then AND (multiply) risk probabilities together, getting a small number. But if events are correlated, then you OR probabilities, i.e take the largest value. During a significant economic downtown, bad debt events are correlated, i.e many people have the problem for the same reason. So during the downtown "high grade" tranches were really overrated, and "junk grade" were underrated, assuming there was someone bailing the debt out. Goldman Sachs and Paulson Funds bought a lot of junk grade at the peak of the boom and made a killing.

  81. Way to shift the blame! by babthooka · · Score: 1

    Sure, blame the mathematicians now!

  82. Necessary conditions for a GFC by Tormodular · · Score: 1

    I've read a lot of interesting comments here about phenomena that contributed to the GFC, but I don't think anyone has really nailed down the set of necessary conditions (if they have and I'm repeating someone elses post I apologize). Clearly, the articles assertion that Black-Scholes caused the GFC is rubbish - many commenters have already clearly explained why this is so. But there seems to be a trend to place all the blame squarely on the shoulders of complex derivatives such as credit default swaps. IMHO this is only a third of the story. I think the three necessary conditions are: 1) the existence of complex derivatives, especially credit default swaps, 2) the repeal of the Glass-Steagall act, and 3) the privatization of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. 3) essentially created a private institution with monopoly power whose profit was linked the quantity of mortgages it created. The incentive structure of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae virtually guaranteed that a large number of loans of dubious quality would be made (similarities to the current incentive structure for the US patent office anyone?). Combine 3) with 1) and the inherent risk in these mortgages was able to be disguised from the vast majority of investors. Throw 2) into the mix and all of the sudden the institutions that hold the deposits of mum and dad investors (ie the ones that should be taking as few risks as possible) are taking enormous positions in incredibly risky assets. Finally, when the shit hits the fan, none of the banks know how exposed the other banks are to the bad loans, and so they all get very shy about lending to each other. Anyone who knows a bit of economics will understand that when banks stop lending to each other in the overnight market, the system will collapse. So, my position is that without all 3 conditions - complex derivatives, repeal of Glass-Steagall, privatization of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - the GFC could not have happened. This is not to say that there would have been no financial turmoil at all, but the scale of the problems would have (IMO) been orders of magnitude smaller. By the way, slashdot, how about adding a FAQ page for how to format comments? How do I indicate a new line for example? Standard LaTeX or reddit type formats don't appear to work, nor does a newline indicator like /n???

  83. Re:Price increases are far more than interest rate by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    Thanks, I made a mistake.

  84. Inflation is far more than interest rates. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    My comment below, Price increases are far more than interest rates, had some errors. I'm posting a corrected version again here. I don't have the time to do more research.

    Inflation is around 2% only if the reduction in house prices is considered, I'm guessing. The fact is that prices for everything are being raised rapidly.

    U.S. dollar inflation, some examples:

    Food, +4.8% -- Food Price Outlook, 2012
    Quote: "The food-at-home Consumer Price Index (CPI), in turn, increased more than expected '4.8 percent in 2011' which means that food price inflation was not as strong as in 2008 when it increased 6.4 percent over 2007."

    Medical treatment, +8.5% -- Medical cost trends for 2012
    "This year's report from PwC's Health Research Institute finds that the medical cost trend is expected to increase from 8% in 2011 to 8.5% in 2012."

    University tuition, +8.3% -- College costs climb, yet again.
    "Tuition at the average public university jumped 8.3% to $8,244."

    Gas, +108% in 8 years -- Historical Price Charts

  85. Re:A math model? That must be a fancy name for by jader3rd · · Score: 1
    I wasn't suggesting that Fannie and Freddy were to root cause of the crisis, but their mortgage purchasing policies were enablers. The article you link to does end with

    They were, at first, not-so-innocent semi-bystanders and, eventually, too-willing accomplices who followed Wall Street as it led the nation’s economy off a cliff.

    Which is why selling to Fannie and Freddy is step 3 in a plan, not the entire evil scheme.

  86. Re:It is the investor's responsibility by mSparks43 · · Score: 1

    I see one fatal flaw in your hypothesis. Warren Buffett didn't avoid derivatives because he didn't understand them. He avoided them because he did understand them.

  87. Re:It is the investor's responsibility by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

    Does it enter into it that the sales people targeted people likely to have a lack of financial knowledge?

    Not in my opinion, no. As always in real estate, or indeed in any investment, Let the Buyer Beware .