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Is Phoenix the Next Silicon Valley?
SpicyBrownMustard writes "There's no secret to a rising level of 'Silicon Valley fatigue' lately, and the new reality show certainly isn't helping. And with hacker hostels packing in twenty somethings fueling the 'it's okay to fail' incubator culture that now is actually hurting startups, it's no wonder weariness with the culture is setting in. Forbes.com asks the question: Is Phoenix The Next Silicon Valley? The article covers a startup with a couple names you might know, who picked Phoenix due to its much lower cost of living and different quality of life. The startup's CTO, 'explains that having so much more financial freedom lowers the stress associated with working for a startup, as he can enjoy work/live balance.' Their location certainly didn't hurt fundraising, as they managed $2 million in seed capital. Are we indeed moving on from Silicon Valley for tech startups?"
Phoenix ?!? Has anyone ever been there?
This is pure long-shot PR from someone with real estate interests..
You can dispense with wafer ovens altogether... just put your silicon outside in the parking lot...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_Law_of_Headlines
Is Phoenix The Next Silicon Valley?
Dear God, I hope not. In the current political climate, as an immigrant, I am avoiding Arizona entirely unless it's absolutely required.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
I mean, I can think of a little company from Albuquerque that ended up doing pretty well for itself.
I am officially gone from
For over a decade people keep saying "X" will be the next Silicon Valley. And they then go on and forget they made such ridiculous predictions and nobody every calls them on it.
FYI The next Silicon Valley continues to be Silicon Valley, as it reinvents itself (and replacing itself with something even more inexplicable the next time.)
So now you know. And you can quote me on it.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Nobody in their right mind wants to live in Phoenix. Too hot and far from anything naturally green.
Solar power in Phoenix is great though.
I won't go.
I thought the ubiquity of high-speed internet access almost everywhere eliminated the need for centering technological progress around a particular geography...
Also, heat is bad for electronics, so why in the name of everything holy would tech startups want to base themselves in an area that regularly experiences triple-digit temperatures?
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
If you're white, otherwise you better carry a few forms of ID and learn to follow the officers instructions completely
Betteridge's Law of Headlines applies.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
The portrait that the national media likes to paint of Arizona is fairly inaccurate - especially when it comes to the people working in technology.
It's an outdated, overplayed stereotype. Idiot local politicians on the right like to rattle their sabers to garner press. Truth be told, the state is about as balanced with its share of both "normal" people and nutjobs on both sides of the aisle.
My IT architecture team is a snapshot of diversity.
The IT arm of my (large) company is fairly representative of IT shops in general -- and the only segregation is among the H1-B types who live/eat/work together, since their teams are often contract-based.
It depends on how willing the state and local governments are to creating a culture of startups, especially technically-minded ones. When Gary Johnson was governor of New Mexico, he signed an initiative to entice film producers to move there with lucrative tax rebates that rivaled other states. Since Martinez has taken office, she's done much to dismantle what Richardson and Johnson built. I'm on a listserv with many New Mexico producers and directors that have watched and acted against her backward actions with moderate success. In reality, if any industry wants to be recognized, they must inform the policymakers that their business is a positive economic force ford the local and state government.
No sig for you! Come back one year!
Pittsburgh would be the next Silicon Valley, if there were any people with money here. I can't get to work without tripping over computer scientists from CMU. Many of the people here are certainly smart and creative enough, but there's no way to get any funding - unless they leave Pittsburgh, and go to the west coast. More than half of the companies I've worked for in Pittsburgh have either closed down, or moved to the west coast - where the money is.
I do stuff Zhrodague
And the computer industry employs a lot of immigrants. If I were starting a new company, I'd think twice about locating in a state where a funny accent is likely to draw hassles.
Responding to the AC who replied previously: this is not about enforcing the laws. This is about dimwitted politicos pandering to bigotry.
In a sense, yes. I have a problem with their state people taking the laws into their own hands. There's a reason ICE exists. And frankly, I don't want to be looked at with suspicion for daring to spend the $2500+ I've spent so far (with more to come!) in order to become a lawful permanent resident.
Also, Joe Arpaio can go fuck himself.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Sounds like he hit a nerve.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
Summers in Phoenix do suck, but frankly the mostly-dry summers of Phoenix are infinitely more tolerable than summers in the South or in the mid-West.
Yup. It's different alright. It was a concrete jungle almost indistinguishable from LA.
So you have no problem with the laws of the US but a problem with the state of Arizona actually enforcing these laws? Fan-friggin-tastic.
You're missing the point. The fact that Arizona has a cultural image problem with a big hunk of the population is likely to make it more difficult to recruit talent, which is essential to the success or failure of any company, and start-ups in particular. It's hard enough already to lure the top people to your company. Why make it harder? Easier to just locate someplace else. If they like the bed they've made, good for them. The Supreme Court validated the single biggest part of their legislation. But that doesn't mean I, or a lot of the people I hire, suddenly feel like it's a good idea to go live there.
Speaking only for myself, I have a problem with Arizona enacting (and enforcing) laws that are plainly discriminatory and largely driven by old white men angrily brandishing guns. Arizona is, from my perspective, out of step with the vast majority of These United States.
But that's just me.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
The portrait that the national media likes to paint of Arizona is fairly inaccurate
Two words: Joe Arpaio.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I'm an electrical engineer in Phoenix who is actively trying to leave. You pretty much have Intel, Honeywell, and Freescale (ha!) on a large scale, a bunch of other companies with satellite offices locally, and some smaller startup types. From the inside, it certainly doesn't feel special relative to any other large city, and there still is nowhere near the density of tech companies that Silicon Valley has. Could it get there? I suppose. But so could Austin, or Seattle, or Irvine, and so on.
Home of Joe Arpaio and other batshit crazy teatards.
How can I tell you are a moron?
This.
Your simple inability to use the simple phrase "Tea Party" marks you as an immature jerk. Why would anyone seek to project that image of themselves?
On a side note, what do you have against reducing the size of government and federal spending? By reducing both you also reduce corruption that inevitable results from too much money being centralized far away from the people who the money comes from.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
In no way am I suggesting that everyone in Arizona is like that; I happen to know a couple people who live there and they're great. Unfortunately, your politicians have set policies that I don't find attractive in the least, and the fact that they have done so, repeatedly, suggests that the tone there would not be welcoming.
If you want to change your image, change your politicians. The problem seems to be that many Arizona natives like them.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
So you have no problem with the laws of the US but a problem with the state of Arizona actually enforcing these laws? Fan-friggin-tastic.
I simply can't imagine why somebody might prefer a state where being flagged down and asked to produce your papers is still an unlikely event, even if you look like you might be of the foreign persuasion...
Shockingly enough, it is entirely possible to agree with a law and disagree with a given method of enforcing it. Except in rare cases, when the law actually explicitly prescribes its own enforcement methods, the two are actually very different things.
Take your coastal elitism and shove it up your hindside.
but... but... but... coastal elitism is the only advantage the coasts have !
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
So you are using Mexico as a shining example of what the United States should become?
People are running across the border for a reason, dude.
Quoting the Heritage Foundation is akin to a Godwin.
Everything is better with chainsaws.
Austin Texas is a hot one and so is Bismark, ND. Indianapolis is a major call center hub too for english speaking call centers.
It does not make economical sense to move to such an outrageously expensive place like northern California where you need to make $90,000 a year for a studio apartment when you are a struggling .com with limited funds who can not afford even the insurance premiums let alone employee costs.
In the old days it made sense to specialize in one area as your suppliers, inventory, and material were all nearbye which is why Michigan is home to the auto industry and nearbye Ohio made the parts and tires. Steel was one state away in Pennsylvania etc.
But with IT you do not have that issue so why bother paying $120,000 a month for a tiny floor with just 3 offices and 1200 square feet when you can tripple that in Austin or Bismark and pay your employees half or hire twice as much with the saved capital?
http://saveie6.com/
I love how everyone with these extreme viewpoints posts as an AC. In any case, like I said, there's a reason ICE exists. Apparently, you people don't think their laws go far enough. I disagree, vehemently.
Additionally, your point about the Mexican police force really has nothing to do with anything since they would appear to be a federal entity, like ICE. If you were to talk about the police of a specific Mexican province or city, maybe then you'd have a point, limited as it may be (I'm not sure I would want to base my national immigration policy on Mexico, after all).
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
The weather is much more pleasant in Colorado.
The only thing is the cost of living is not quite as low as Arizona. But it sure beats California...
There's a ton of technical stuff going on all across the state, and only Colorado has places to suit ideology anywhere on the spectrum (far left, Boulder. far right, Colorado Springs. Independent? Anywhere).
Also they have laws to prevent idiots from hanging in the left lane forever preventing you from passing trucks. So unlike California, highways actually work here.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Thanks for confirming my suspicion.
Despite Joe's antics, he'll get elected again because his politics aren't what most of the voting populous of AZ cares about.
Things like Tent City suck, and we like when our criminals get sent there. We like that he deputizes people to track down deadbeat dads or keep gangbangers out of mall parking lots. We like that he's a mean son of a bitch. We want our stupid kids locked up and put in a chain-gang for the week when they get a drunk driving charge.
We overlook the fact that he panders to the media on the right with birther nonsense, because he's not a position in our government where it matters. [Hint, the MCSO doesn't determine presidential eligibility.]
$2 million in capital raised. So what are they opening, a Burger King?
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Nope. It's actually Silicon Valley 2, NV. Sorry Phoenix.
if they didn't absolutely have to. I lived there for 4 years of dental school. It's too hot to move about 8 months of the year, all the plants have thorns, all the insects sting, all the reptiles are poisonous. There's no water. This is a message from the universe telling you that human beings don't belong there.
Of all the places to be in Az, I never understood why people would have settled in that god-forsaken valley. 100 miles away there are decent climates at higher altitudes.
Further proof of the stupidity of humans...
Moving away from Silicon Valley -- Great!
Moving to Phoenix -- No damned way.
Can't we pick some place with a lower cost of living than the SF bay area (which shouldn't be hard) *and* isn't hot enough to barbecue small animals?
I moved *from* Phoenix. I visited there recently. It's still too damned hot.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6HvS0pOoJc&feature=player_detailpage#t=23s
I see this all the time though. "Nobody wants to work there, it's too hot!" Never "Nobody wants to work there, it's too cold!" Am I so much in the minority that it's never even considered that people might want a warm climate?
Everything is better with chainsaws.
So you elect him because the issues on which he's speaking don't matter to you, but expect immigrants (i.e. people to whom issues like that matter immensely) to... what? Ignore it? Kind of difficult when you're being asked for your papers all the time...
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Spring in Phoenix sucks; summers are flat-out intolerable.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
No, they mostly come from Mesa. I do not consider Mesa to be Phoenix yet.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
<3
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
It also takes some balls to leave your home country.
I've lived in Scottsdale for the past 2 years, having previously lived in Chicago and Silicon Valley. The vast majority of developers here are C# developers who would rate between a B- and a D if graded on their development skills. The vast majority of development jobs in Phoenix are also centered around C#; seeing as most web-based startups are using Java or LAMP as their underpinning technology, Phoenix's labor pool and developer job opportunities simply aren't aligned to maintain a robust startup environment. Additionally, development jobs pay anywhere from 30-50% less than other major coder cities. Lower cost of living be damned; if companies are looking to hire C# developers for $70k/year, they're not going to attract top talent. Chicago, San Jose, Austin ... you could spend an afternoon listing all of the cities that are healthier for startups and talented developers. And, all of these issues are just the tip of the spear - we haven't even addressed the political climate in Arizona. Good luck convincing talented developers here on an H1B that Arizona is a safe place to live and work.
Well, it's the fifth-largest city in the USA. Apparently, someone has not only been there but is still there.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
We don't deal with the heat. We stay inside. Or in the pool.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
And as one native to another, can you really see this happening? I mean, seriously: attempting to replace Standford with ASU? Getting people to choose Maricopa over the Bay Area? GMAFB.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
That's the best you can do? "Mexican cops can be assholes too"?
-- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
You have essentially answered your own question.
On one hand, you say that you disagree with Arizona laws because of the beliefs of the people that live there. This is a problem because it makes Arizona out of step with the majority of the US.
But.. the majority of the US is not in Arizona. That's why it's called Arizona. It's a different place from where you live. If you don't live there, why do you care?
Do you have a problem with marijuana dispensaries every three blocks in Denver (assuming you don't live in Colorado)?
How about *insert some other random law approved by the state which gets challenged federally*?
Let the states conduct their own business.
Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
You wish. We've got a vigilante group here in Arizona, call themselves "Minutemen" than routinely walk the border. These idiots are are NOT cops. They are civilians with guns that shoot first. That's just a sample of AZ. I hate this place but can't afford to leave.
Airzona is doing what other countries do. ENFORCING immigration polices. If you have an h1b1 visa or are a greencard worker you are welcome.
Now if I want to your country (probably Australia, UK, or India) and came illegally you bet my ass I would be arrested and the employer fined and deported. Why is that you can come take jobs away but I can't take yours away. Employers can use the whole globe for the best talent and yet I can't do the same with the best employer.
It is hot button issue but in a recession with millions out of work many in Arizona can't find work anymore and yet Mexicans from across the border come in and the employers get a BIG tax write off to boot! How is that fair?
http://saveie6.com/
In my experience (and I know the plural of experience is not data) with Arizona, some of the most strident negative opinions about immigrants were from people who were of obvious Hispanic heritage.
Even the people you'd normally characterize as "conservative" (white, carry a handgun, etc) always struck me as more socially and interpersonally "liberal" -- ie, they weren't bible thumpers, most were OK with legalizing marijuana to stem the drug cartels and gangs, not hung up on the usual hard-ass conservative things.
In fact in some of the rural areas, it was kind of hard to tell the "conservative desert rats" from the "desert hippies". They both kind of look alike, dress alike, etc. About the biggest difference was the conservative guys usually had guns and the liberals usually not.
Overall I considered most of the "conservatives" to be more libertarian than the kind of white and uptight, Jesus H. Christ christian conservatives, like Michelle Bachmann or that type.
Well, you and this old white guy Arizona native.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
A common misrepresentation. Sherrif Joe has his faults, but instructing his officers to stop vehucles on the highway with expired plates, faulty safety equipment, and a dozen people in the back on suspicion that they are possibly transporting illegal aliens is reasonable and prudent. And yes, they are probably dark-skinned.
If they show a drivers license, regtistration, insurance card, and their passengers mostly answer questions and don't try to hide, they usually go on ther way with a warning. Refusing to talk to the officer will get them a quick vacation in Tent City.
Don't believe all the propoganda.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Things like Tent City suck, and we like when our criminals get sent there. We like that he deputizes people to track down deadbeat dads or keep gangbangers out of mall parking lots. We like that he's a mean son of a bitch. We want our stupid kids locked up and put in a chain-gang for the week when they get a drunk driving charge.
That someone would present these as the appealing, non-right-wing facets of Joe Arpaio says a lot.
As long as they don't fail ongoing legal/constitutional scrutiny, it is the right of Joe's constituents to support these kinds of policies. Nevertheless, they are indeed why many people would not want to move to AZ.
I don't call a dew point of 70F "mostly dry." If you can't use an evaporative cooler, it's not humid, it's freaking soggy.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
ICE is under executive branch and the president gets campaign contributions from lobbiests to make sure they do not hire Americans. Mostly farming corporations who take over farms and then hire illegals to run them.
If ICE cracked down the hispanic vote would be up in arms rioting and the corporations would no longer have cheap labor.
FYI I am not racist at all but just stating the obvious as someone who used to live in Southern California and seen what happened to the state. In the old days Americans use to do construction believe it or not and got paid a middle class salary. Today you can't find any work in that field even for minimium wage. The rest of the US is not that bad but even in places like Minnosota wages 15 years ago for working in the meat processing plant averaged $30,000 a year. Today they only hire Mexicans and pay $17,000 a year for the same job while the former workers were mysteriously laid off.
ICE is not doing its job. I have no problems with h1b1 workers such as yourself as you pay taxes and provide a service no one else can do, but the economic cost is bankrupting states and hurting people trying to not starve.
http://saveie6.com/
If you stay in the machine room, you'll be comfy all year long.
Sprinting to the car might be a problem, though. I get that.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Sure. Whatever. I get sick of pointing this out to folks. Sure, back east you may - occasionally - get near 100 degrees. We are over 100 degrees from about 10am till about 9pm or later for 3 months out of the year. The LOWS stay in the mid 80's and low 90's. Sure - it's a dry heat, but ya know what, your lungs feel like they are scorching. I had a vegetable garden once where the veggies cooked on the vine - in October.
Granted - February is wonderful. But you pay for it.
Why would anyone want to be in the same state as Arpaio, let alone 30 miles away? Don't they know how that works? That area is full of crazies.
and I love it here. I have no problems finding jobs. Lately at work we've actually had a lot of problems locating qualified software developers. TFA does read quite a bit like a real-estate ad but there's some truth to it, at least in my sector.
It actually took me a bit to realize that I don't care about what other localities decide to do or not do. If San Fransisco wants to make pet ownership illegal and composting mandatory, that is their choice. If the subdevelopment down the street decides all houses must be pink with blue roofs, that is their choice. If NYC wants to harass new mothers, fine. If Arizona wants to pass 'crazy' laws, fine. I don't have to live in any of those places. What makes this country great is we can pass insane local laws that say you can't eat chicken on Tuesday and it's ok. The anti-chicken-eating-on-Tuesday people can all live together and leave me alone.
It takes a lot actually to realize it doesn't matter what the crazies in the county over do cause they all think you are just as crazy. Eventually he will get it or tear his hair out in despair. Now get off my lawn!
Silicon Valley is where the tech industry was born. I believe the Silicon Valley thing is over and development will spread around from now on. If anything, the next Silicon Valley is probably somewhere in China or India...
Tomorrow is another day...
Silicon Valley is an a pretty beautiful part of the country. The ocean one direction and mountains in the other. The weather is beautiful year round.
Phoenix is in a desert and the weather is shit. You have to be in air conditioning constantly, and it's getting worse. No water. You live a few years in Phoenix and you end up looking like Arizona governor Jan Brewer, with a face like a an old first basemen's mitt. You can practically live in Silicon Valley without heat or air conditioning. I spend time every year at a friend's house not far from Silicon Valley, near a town named "Corrallitos". You don't even need to put screens on the windows. Him and his wife sometimes go all year without turning on heat or air conditioning. There are trees growing all around with lemons, peaches. The best produce in the world is grown down the road. You can eat fresh figs year round.
But the worst thing that Phoenix has going for it is that it's in Arizona. They have a county sheriff down there who makes the worst corrupt Chicago Boss look like the picture of responsible government. Arizona? Nobody needs that kind of grief. Companies in Arizona have to tell their employees of South Asian descent to carry proof of citizenship when they go jogging.
I can see Phoenix becoming like a low-rent Silicon Valley, with companies who don't want to spend any money, but the first-rate talent just isn't going to want to go there.
On the pro side, it's one of the best spots in the country if you want to have solar energy, which might, some day, off-set a fraction of the air conditioning expenses. On the con side, you have to be inside all the time.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Things like Tent City suck, and we like when our criminals get sent there.
What about the innocent, but accused? You did know that the majority of Tent Citie's population are merely accused and awaiting trial, right?
But I'm wasting my time. You're exactly the kind of authoritarian asshole that keeps any sort of sensible person out of Phoenix. I hope you get falsely accused of a crime in August.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I woudl love to participate in a huge expanson of the IT market here in Phoenix, but:
- Most of the high-end, lucrative openings are for those with Java/javascript/J2EE, Ruby, CSS, HTML5, iOS, Android, .NET, Oracle, JQuery, and a combination of two CMS frameworks, a Masters in an applicable field, and experience. Oh, and system administration experience as well.
In other words, an H1B.
Pus.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Out of curioisity, do you understand what the actual purpose of the federal government is? It sure looks like you don't or you woudn't be advocating that states overrule the federal government.
So many people have this backwards that it truly scares me. It is the job of the federal government to secure borders, not the job of local municipalaties which could start armed conflicts with another country. It is not up to individual states to determine foreign policy, otherwise Texas could declare war on China and the whole U.S. would have to deal with the consequences.
I get that states should have the right to govern with minimal interference but when it comes to immigration it's no longer a single state making a decision. There is no federal law stating that you can't have marijuana dispensaries so it's up to Colorado or California to determine if that is what they want. Hell, here in Arizona we are starting to get dispensaries of our own!
Long story short, Arizona is out of step with the majority, because the majority knows that a state's rights end where another states begins. Arizona militarizing the border makes for a problems that Texas, New Mexico, and California may not be prepared to handle, this makes it a federal issue.
Doesn't make Phoenix a hub of web start ups
In general, Phoenix is a boring place, and boring doesn't attract talent. For some reason, Phoenicians chose to build themselves a flat, heat-magnifying city of asphalt and concrete in an already hot location, instead of shade trees and tall buildings to help block the sunlight. Consequently, there are few vibrant, walkable areas (downtown Tempe is/was a notable exception), and there's not much to do in the summer except watch TV or go to the theater, the mall, or a water park.
No, Phoenix isn't a good tech incubator. Phoenix is where you move your company after you've completed the real innovation and you just need cheap labor to keep the business running.
Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
I wouldn't move to Phoenix for a 50% raise. 100% and I'd consider it...
We've kept him in office since 1993 because we like his position on crime and law enforcement.
We mostly ignore things like his recent birther rhetoric because, as mentioned, the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office doesn't determine presidential eligibility.
There are only 50 states, and Arkansas is not bankrupt. I know we live in the backwards south, but guess what the people here know how to vote for fiscally responsible citizens. I'm sure a few other states are okay too.
But yes most are bankrupt.
21st Century Renaissance Man
Mostly, I just wanted to hit the same nerve a second time. Looks like I succeeded.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
So clever!
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
I understand that you prefer hugging drunk drivers, the voters of the great state of Arizona prefer to lock them up.
Over 20 years ago I made some mistakes in my life, and one of those ended me up in tent city (when it was still new). Part of what's kept me straight in the 20 years since has been the overwhelming desire not to ever, ever, go back.
But.. the majority of the US is not in Arizona. That's why it's called Arizona. It's a different place from where you live. If you don't live there, why do you care?
Because I think that legislated discrimination anywhere in the United States is morally, ethically, and constitutionally wrong. As an American, I hold my fellow Americans to the ideal that all men are created equally.
Frankly, the fact that I have to explain to you why I care is appalling, and demonstrates exactly how out of step Arizona is.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
Huh? How is defending your home even remotely the same as walking through the desert on federal land and shooting at random people that *might* be border jumpers? Huge difference.
It is actually illegal to do what they are doing but they get away with it due to the nature of the area.
These idiots are are NOT cops. They are civilians with guns that shoot first. That's just a sample of AZ.
Just out of curiosity, how many of them have you ran into? I've lived in Phoenix for 33+ years and I can't say I've ever actually seen a Minuteman. Maybe not the best "sample" to use for the population in the 6th largest city in the country.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
There's a lot to this.
1. I bought a house right out of school, which improved my quality of life to higher than my SW Engineer brother in SJ.
2. There is money here to be invested, and fewer groups are pursuing it, making the odds better for a sharp group with a good idea (big fish, small pond analogy)
3. Public support: Incubators at ASU are actively looking for people with ideas to connect with funders. There is a palpable inferiority complex in the state that can be played to the advantage of the startup.
4. Industry groups: AZBio, AZ Tech Council, etc are active and well attended
5. Local talent: not as bad as is being described here. Remember the aero/semiconductor history of the area.
6. Weather: remember, people, that CA has the best weather on the planet. When compared to half the country (e.g. places too snowy, too humid), Phoenix weather looks pretty good.
7. Political climate: the negatives mentioned here are not a significant factor to developing a business. Significant factors include a much lower tax rate (without the spectre of giant tax increases once it all catches up to you, CA) and less state limitations on business.
Dance like you're hurt, Love like you need money, and work when somebody's watching.
-Scott Adams
So you're denying that Arizona has a higher percentage of old white men angrily brandishing guns than the rest of the country?
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
I am not racist and the jobs being taken away are not ones I do normally. However, I can't go to India to look for work or some place cheaper. The employers can and do because every country but the US enforces its immigration laws and is not being pocketed by corporations who hire illegally.
Schools are flooded where 70% of the kids are not US born, have limited english, get free health care, and their parents do not pay for taxes. My ex kept getting laid off each year because of budget underruns caused by this. Her friends included former middle class workers who can't get hired as they do not speak spanish and are willing to work for less than minimium in construction. They are being shafted.
Sorry but if I spoke iwth my great American accent in London the police there have a right too to ask if I am there legally right?
http://saveie6.com/
the federal government and Democrats
Democracts and Republicans . They both spend money like drunken sailors. The only difference is democrats try to fund their spending a little with taxes, whereas the GOP waits for the funding to magically trickel down.
"reason" and "logic" ? I don't think those words mean what you think they mean. But don't let that stop you polishing each other's balls in righteousness.
If you say so. However, I've lived in Maricopa County for 60 years, grew up with swamp coolers, and have one now in addition to the AC.
And the fool things, for all their virtues, don't work when the dew point is 70F like it was recently. For that matter, they're pretty wretched when the dew point is 55F, which it generally is from the beginning of June until well into September.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
I make the same pay rate as my peers in SF yet my apartment rent is $550 per month in one of the best areas of the city. On top of that I don't even own a jacket, sunshine every single day.
Got Code?
I do not hide under an AC.
Living close the border I have seen the evils of illagal immigration when I lived in Riverside California. My exwife is from there and it is turning 3rd world. Not because I am a racist evil person who is a member of the KKK, but rather my ex worked in a school district that went 70% American to 70% hispanic in 15 short years, doubled the student population, cut fundinging by 1/3, cut all our family friends salaries, except increased one business owners' salary tremendousnly from the cheaper labor.
You can't drive past a Home Depot with 30 hispanics ready to jump in a truck for work. My ex's friend did construction and made good monay back in the 1990s and he can't compete with these people. As a result people are getting poorer and poorer each year while taxes keep going up driving employers away.
If ICE did its job and went into these home depots and busted them up, stopped trucks with 10 people on them, deported all the parents of these children you can be economic recovery would take place.
H1b1 and greencards are welcome and an important step but Arizona is the only state that had the balls to do it without fear of the hispanic vote. All the other states lost control.
http://saveie6.com/
Life time Arizona resident here.
Actually the high tech industry is thriving here. It's as easy to get immigrants to work here as anywhere else. I should know, I work for a fortune 100 tech company who is based out of Phoenix, and we have a fair share of immigrant employees. Arizona only discriminates against illegal immigration. And it's not just white people that do it, even the legal immigrants have a problem with illegal immigration.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
Not really. I live in Arizona, and know many legal immigrants, and all of the ones I have heard opine on the subject are in favor of SB1070. And I myself work for a major tech company in Arizona that has many immigrant employees.
Why do you think intel didn't have a problem building the worlds most advanced semiconductor fabrication plant here about a year after SB1070 was passed?
It's illegal immigrants, who aren't supposed to be here to begin with, who have a problem.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
They need to move to Flagstaff. The weather is Phoenix is extremely unpleasant.
90 degrees with 70-80% humidity is way worse than 100 degrees and 10-20% humidity, champ.
90F and 80% RH is a dew point of 84F. Not many places in North America where that happens, or we'd be seeing a lot more fog in the evenings when the temperature dropped below that 90F peak.
Meanwhile, 110F and a dew point of 72F (like we had here last week) is 30% humidity. Sounds dry, but only because 110F air can hold a LOT of water. At 90F that same dew point is 55% and nothing much evaporates. Including, most importantly, sweat.
As I post this, St. Louis Misery has 103F with a dew point of 68F, a nice dry RH of 33%. Somehow I don't think they feel "dry."
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
I beg to differ. I spent a summer in Oregon 20 yrs ago and it was routinely 95-100 degrees with 80-90% humidity. Not to bad because it was only that hot for a couple hours a day. And it rained. And there was a breeze. NONE of which you get in Phoenix. It's 100-110 for 12 hours a day. Pounding sun that feels like a physical blow and no breeze to "evaporate the sweat". It feels like a convection oven.
Then you have unfriendly weather climates (hello 120+ degrees).
Now, now. We only hit 50C once, although 115F comes around about once a year on average.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Doesn't exist anymore? I think their website disagrees with you. And a simple wiki lookup shows the nonsense they've done over the years.
I used to live in Phoenix for a long time. Like any big city it has its good points and its bad points. As a hub for high tech, it has a ways to go.
Intel has a huge presence there, so does, American Express, Honeywell, Paypal, Freeport-McMoran. Freescale used to. Phoenix is more high tech than most people know.
The good:
- Good weather 9 months out of they year. That is opposed to most places that have maybe 6-7 marginally passable months.
- Reasonably priced housing.
- Talented technical subculture
- Salaries in the midrange.
The bad
- There are those 3 months out of the year.
- Talent pool is good but not huge like Silicon Valley
The ugly
- Almost no venture funding. If you want funding, you have to look out of state.
Also, frozen nose hairs on your coworkers smell a lot better than sweat.
Do they? I honestly could never tell, because MY NOSE WAS FROZEN.
On the clothing point, if I'm outside for more than ten seconds, it's because I'm doing something physical, and I'd much rather do that in shorts and a tank top than bundled head-to-toe like a medieval knight. And I'd rather be doing it with other people in skimpy clothing than other people who look like shapeless lumps of padding.
In addition, it's a lot easier to drive in a warm climate. An A/C doesn't have a start-up period, so even on the hottest days my car will cool to room temp within 10-15 seconds of starting it. In freezing weather you have to sit there, still bundled up and looking like the Michelin man, for the 3-4 minutes until the engine warms up enough that the heater will work (and that's after the five minutes spent scraping ice!).
I will concede one point, and that's that shoveling snow made me a lot more money as a kid than mowing lawns ever did.
Everything is better with chainsaws.
Where the heck do you live?
"The Valley" he refers to is "Silicon Valley," not "the Valley of the Sun."
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
You can determine who's an illegal just by looking at them, and discriminate accordingly? I don't think so. The police are empowered to ask for "papers, please" of anyone that they "suspect of being illegal". Which practically means, anyone mocha colored.
I'm actually curious to know how you're supposed to "prove citizenship". Is a driver's license enough? What if you're not driving? Are you supposed to walk around with a birth certificate at all times? Do the white folks do that too, to prove that they're not illegal from Canada?
If white folks don't feel at risk enough to carry "proof of citizenship" while not driving, because they know that they won't actually be required to show citizenship at an indiscriminate time, the police are simply racial profiling. Or, by any other name, being racist.
--
$tar -xvf
What about Arizona's tax-and-spend habit? I live here in Phoenix and the taxes are pretty high: income tax, 9.0+% sales tax, property tax, etc. It's NOT cheap to live here. Maybe compared to the Bay Area it's cheap, but compared to most of the rest of the country, it's expensive as hell, and you aren't getting anything for it, because this city is a shithole. Back on the east coast, the sales taxes are all around 5%, and in states like Oregon, there's no income tax.
so even on the hottest days my car will cool to room temp within 10-15 seconds of starting it.
What kind of A/C system do you have in your car that can take a 150+ degree internal temperature and bring it down to 72degrees in 10-15 seconds? When it's 110+ outside, it's going to be considerably hotter inside your car.
I work here since 2009. I was basically forced to move here when my previous employer closed shop and this was the best job I was able to find back then.
Yes, it is hot in summer. And I hate scorpions that crawl inside the house.
But there are some good things about this place, too:
- I can afford a nice house with a pool in a good neighborhood 2 miles from the office. Nowhere else I would be able to live in such luxury. Maybe in Austin. In California, I would be living in a tiny townhouse that would cost me more (in percents of my salary), and commuting on a congested highway an hour one way.
- I bike to work every working day of every month, even in 115 degree heat. It is not bad at all because of the short distance and dry air. Also, the morning and the evening temperature is significantly lower than the max.
- Quite a few outdoor attractions are within driving distance: Sedona, Grand Canyon, Mogollon Rim, etc.
- Winter is nice. I like snow, so we drive to Flagstaff every now and then for some fun
Sorry, but when you look at population, Phoenix (metro area) IS Arizona. There's over 4 million people in Phoenix, and about 6.5 million in the entire state according to Wikipedia. The rest of the state is a minority compared to Phoenix.
There is a big difference between 102 and 106F. That feeling like your eyeballs are on fire when you walk outside? That's Phoenix.
Sorry, but Mesa is absolutely part of the Phoenix metro area, regardless of your personal opinion. So are Tempe, Chandler, Gilbert, Queen Creek, Scottsdale, Peoria, Glendale, Sun City, Buckeye, etc.
No, we don't. We suffer through the heat as we walk from the edges of giant parking lots to our wonderful new outdoor shopping centers like Tempe Marketplace that the developers here have told us that "everyone wants now"
Being in the pool doesn't prevent you from getting massive sunburn, unless you can breathe underwater and stay under there the whole time.
I have a problem with H1B workers, or more specifically the system that creates them. They shouldn't exist. If we want them to come here and do tech jobs, then they should be allowed to just immigrate here and work, without any strings. Instead, we have an evil system that ties them to the employer that sponsored their visa, so they're unable to leave if that employer mistreats or underpays them. This essentially makes them into indentured servants.
I don't know if it's the next silicon valley but I had a layover there last Friday and it was hot, hot, hot at a scorching 109 degrees F at around 2PM. Our plane overheated while it was at the terminal.
Most humans don't like temperatures that are hotter than their body temperature; it's pretty hard to stay cool, and it's extremely easy to get heatstroke.
In cold weather, if you're cold, you can just put on some more clothes; as long as it's above 0F, it's really not that bad. When it's 120 degrees outside, there isn't much you can do to cool down except stay inside all day in the A/C.
Even if you were to ignore the universities (Berkeley, Stanford, UCSF), the high-tech economy, the VC ecosystem, and every other good man-made thing about the Bay Area, there are still two fundamentals: gorgeous natural settings, and weather. Those aren't going away even if (when) the economy tanks, and those are two things that give property values some resilience. It's fundamentally a nice place to live.
(Something for everyone: cool and pleasant in SF, toasty and pleasant on the Peninsula.)
When property values dipped in 2007-2009, people who've lived here for a decent amount of time pretty much just shrugged and decided to wait it out.
Even with the hassles (too many people, too much traffic, the occasional pesky earthquake), it's one of very few places in the US that attracts the depth and breadth of technical talent that's required for a thriving high-tech ecosystem. (I'd put Boston, Seattle, and maybe Austin on that list as well.) All of those are also well-known as tolerant and reasonably-diverse cites.
Phoenix? Nice to visit, but not even in the same class.
That sounds exactly like Phoenix actually: mormons and fundies are everywhere here (along with illegals and meth-heads).
The next Silicon Valley already exists. It's called RTP (Research Triangle Park, North Carolina). RTP is the largest concentration of PhDs in the world. It is the home of countless tech startups. My daughter worked for an RTP game engine company for two years, then went to work for Duke University for two years and next week is joining an internet advertising startup at RTP. This back and forth synergy between RTP and the major universities in the area (UNC- Chapel Hill, Duke, and NC State) is a major driving force. RTP is on the leading edge of biotech innovation. UNC is building Carolina North in Chapel Hill which will be a world class biotech incubator and the seat of UNCs science graduate programs. The Duke Medical Center and UNC Hospitals offer the clinical trial infrastructure that biotech startups require. Most major tech companies already have a research facility at RTP and many are expanding even in this depression we are currently in. The quality of life and cost of living certainly beat Palo Alto and Phoenix (maybe not San Francisco yet :) You just have to learn to like grits.
"He took a duck in the face at 250 knots." -- William Gibson, Pattern Recognition
"people to whom issues like that matter immensely"
Who died and put you in charge?
Illegal invasion of our border *actually* matters to those of us who are citizens and those of us who play by the rules.
Any questions?
Yes, I've got one: how come you keep posting as an anonymous coward? Are you so ashamed of your right-wing opinions that you're afraid to attach even a pseudonym to your words?
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
No one gives a rats ass about LEGAL hispanics. Hell, when I lived there, 80% of my friends were hispanic and they talked more shit about illegals than anyone else I have ever met.
As long as Arizona is governed by bible thumping racist assholes, Phoenix will not be the next Silicon valley. It won't be much of anything. Our only hope is that global warming makes the Phoenix valley uninhabitable and forces the inhabitants to disperse, something like what Katrina did to New Orleans.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
Since you didn't bother to specify which, now disbanded, Arizonian "minutemen" group, there's the murders of Raul and Brisenia Flores by Shawna Forde (State of Arizona vs. Shawna Forde (court case number CR-20092300-001, Pima County)), the founder of the splinter group Minutemen American Defense, and Jason Bush (State of Arizona vs. Jason Eugene Bush (court case number CR-20092300-003, Pima County)).
What about the innocent, but accused? You did know that the majority of Tent Citie's population are merely accused and awaiting trial, right?
Citation?
His numbers are right, but he's still misguided.
"The Maricopa County jail system, administered by Sheriff Joseph Arpaio, holds about 9,000 inmates, 70 percent of whom are pre-trial detainees."
First, Sheriff Joe has no say in who the courts decide needs to be detained pre-trail and which defendants get to be set free. Second, there's a fairly good standard for the sort of repeat or (suspected) dangerous criminals that are held in police custody awaiting trial.
The people sitting in jail for more than a day sobering up are either violent, repeat offenders, or flight risks. ...because a JUDGE said so. They were arraigned in front of a judge and now they're awaiting trial. They are being held in due process of law, not on Joe's whim, and not without having been in front of a judge.
Sheriff Joe doesn't decide who's held awaiting trial and who isn't. He only gets to make decisions about the conditions of those who are.
We like when our pretrial detainees go there too. :)
You realize that Joe Arpaio is the SHERIFF in the MARICOPA COUNTY.
Not Arizona.
If you only knew wtf was happening, you wouldn't say it's an embarrassment, you'd be patting him on the back. There's nothing wrong with sending illegal immigrants back to their country, no matter how much you want them here. They're "Illegal". That word means something, no matter how cool you think they are.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
Not as broke as all 23 states in Australia, or 31 states in Great Britain!
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. In the current political climate, as an immigrant, I am avoiding Arizona entirely unless it's absolutely required.
Believe me, you're safe as long as you're not ILLEGAL.
There are lots of immigrants there, Arizona just doesn't like those that are there illegally. That's all.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
The available water is already over-subscribed for the current population and industry of Az and, with the effect of global warming, drought is settling in for the foreseeable future. If all these people are gonna move in, what are they going to drink?
To be fair, it is probably longer than 15s to actually bring the temp all the way down. But the air coming out is immediately cold, and the moving cold air makes the car feel much cooler than it probably is. That's compared to a start in cold weather, where it takes multiple minutes for the air coming out of the vents to be warm at all, let alone bring the temp all the way up.
Everything is better with chainsaws.
You can determine who's an illegal just by looking at them, and discriminate accordingly? I don't think so. The police are empowered to ask for "papers, please" of anyone that they "suspect of being illegal". Which practically means, anyone mocha colored.
I keep hearing that stupid argument. "suspect of being illegal" is no different than any other probable cause argument! "suspect of carrying illegal substances", "suspected of lying about your identity", "suspected of beating your wife", "suspected of robbing a bank", "suspected of being here illegally". They all use the same psychology research to follow up on, and all follow the same lawful requirement: probable cause.
When people do something they're not supposed to do, they get nervous and act it. It doesn't matter if they just jumped the fence from Mexico, or knowingly ran a red light, or raped your sister. If you ask them simple questions concerning the topic they are anxious about, they'll get flustered, or sound like their answers are rehearsed, or do something else that gives them away. Once you've given yourself away on where you live, where you're from, where you're going, where you work, or any of a million different questions that cops ask absolutely every person they ever pull over, THEN they'll ask for your papers.
the name "minutemen" is used for unofficial "posse" style people who create vigilante groups and go into the desert with guns. They use that name to make themselves feel like they're holding the fort for the country, at the border.
Now, I'm sure you can extrapolate.
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Nice ad hominem.
Even if they do speak and work better, they are still illegals and thus companies get away with paying them less. Such a thing, when so prevalent, really does push things down in the area.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
shut up, faggot.
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Actually federal law already requires ALL immigrants to register and carry some form of documentation at all times, legal or otherwise. A green card will suffice.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1304
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1306
So the "papers please" argument already applies nationwide.
Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
Give it a rest already.
~S
OK, this nonsense has gone on far enough.
People who are just walking around are not being stopped and were not being stopped.
The majority of stops are due to driving infractions. If the driver doesn't have a license then the LEO will start questioning why and develop probable cause that the person is in the country illegally. Someone in the country illegally can not get a driver's license.
So, how should this be handled - cop pulls someone over for speeding. Driver doesn't have a driver's license and, probably, no insurance - the two issues are often related. The person is already in enough trouble for speeding, driving without a license and driving without insurance. If the person speaks English as a second language then maybe, just maybe, the cop is justified in finding out if the person is in the country legally. It is the combination - stopped for a traffic infraction and lacking a driver's license that starts the ball rolling by giving some reasonably articulable suspicion that the person may not be here legally.
I grew up near D.C., spent twenty years in Silicon Valley and I've spent the last five in Scottsdale.
When I first moved from D.C. to Silicon Valley I was impressed with how laid back the culture was compared to D.C. When I first moved here I was impressed with how much friendlier it is here than in Silicon Valley.
If you don't want to move here then don't. But don't convince yourself that the crap you hear on the news has any basis in reality about how things work here. What makes the news is what's different from the "local" culture. Arizona is different from your local culture and the "local" culture of the national media. Fact is, Arizona is currently considered a toss-up state in the presidential election. I would argue that that indicates a more balanced approach to life than a locked-in state like California.
There is a stronger sense of law-and-order here as well as a stronger sense of personal responsibility and accountability here than there is in the larger population centers in California. Some of us like it that way and that's why we moved here. Some of you don't like it and prefer the warmth and comfort you get from a more involved government entity.
It wasn't a question. You are just spamming the thread with the same post at this point. But I guess if that gives you your jollys...
~S
I assume the other 351 comments here are all saying "no" so I hope I don't get modded "redundant" for supplying the 352nd.
Most cities in the US have a tech startup or two. They are not exclusive to Silicon Valley. That does not mean those cities will become the "next" Silicon Valley. What does Silicon Valley have to offer?
- History. It got its name because so many of the early tech greats--Intel, HP, Apple--started out there.
- School. Stanford attracts a lot of bright people. From Wikipedia: "Stanford alumni have started many companies including Hewlett-Packard, Cisco Systems, Nvidia, SGI, MIPS Technologies, Yahoo!, Google, Logitech, Instagram, and Sun Microsystems."
- Money. The venture capitalists on Page Mill are legendary. Wikipedia says "Despite the development of other high-tech economic centers throughout the United States and the world, Silicon Valley continues to be the leading hub for high-tech innovation and development, accounting for one-third (1/3) of all of the venture capital investment in the United States."
- Weather. Mild climate and it never snows. (Snow is great, but it's for visiting, not living in.)
- Geography. Within a four-hour drive you have beaches, mountains, and forests. You can surf and ski in the same day.
Put that all together, let it stew for 70 years (HP was founded in 1939) and you'll get Silicon Valley.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
On your final paragraph, Johnny, I get stopped everytime I drive through New Mexico and Texas and have to demonstrate to a Border Patrol Agent that I'm a U.S. citizen or else show papers that I'm here legally. I also get the pleasure of having a drug detecting dog sniff around my car.
Everyone gets stopped in many places around this country by the feds for the sole purpose of a citizenship and drug check - merely for having the temerity to be driving down the road in the U.S.
These programs have expanded under the current administration and now feature face-recognition cameras as well as the "papers please" stops.
I suggest just a little more research before you go off about racist cops and people being asked for their papers for no apparent reason.
Point 1 maybe... point 2??? "different quality of life" is that a new euphemism for the racial profiling, bigotry and racism of AZ? Thanks but I pass.
Sheriff Joe doesn't send officers to Alabama. Try at least to stay on topic, or at least relevant, despite your nebulous status of anonymity.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Utah is where you go when you are a geek and want to raise a family. If you have never been in a relationship (most of you), consider joining the Mormons. They will have you married for "all eternity" by the weekend to a Marie or Donnie Osmond clone.
Orgs doing interesting things here:
HP, Adobe, Microsoft, Goldman Sachs, Intel, Micron, AtTask, Alfresco, Novell, Symantec, Verio, NSA (DoD), Overstock, Backcountry, FusionIO, and many, many more.
On second thought.... I've seen what you guys have done to California. Maybe you better go to Arizona instead.
I suggest you put down most of your computing devices then. Intel is HUGE here, as is Motorola and Microchip. American Express and Goodyear Tire are also huge here (eg Goodyear, AZ is a real town named after.... Goodyear Tire). So no electronics for you, no plane rides (who do you think makes the tires for the planes and the emergency chutes you jump on to escape the plane?), lose those tires. Cut up that card.
Oh, and if the AC is calling my died in the wool liberal wife racist? Get a life. A state isn't racist, mentally handicapped conservatives in the state legislature are. They get voted in by snowbirds, the elderly who relocate here 6 months out of the year. Like your grandparents.
Is that you can drive away from it.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Things like Tent City suck, and we like when our criminals get sent there.
What about the innocent, but accused? You did know that the majority of Tent Citie's population are merely accused and awaiting trial, right?
But I'm wasting my time. You're exactly the kind of authoritarian asshole that keeps any sort of sensible person out of Phoenix. I hope you get falsely accused of a crime in August.
You sound as if these inmates are getting injured. Despite what you have been told in the news, the human body adapts to desert climates just fine when hydrated. It is also a crime in AZ to deny water to anyone who asks. As far as I know nobody has ever been denied access to water at this jail. Those awaiting trial are required to be charged with a crime and have bond set by a judge just like any other jail.
Jail isn't supposed to be comfortable. I don't see the problem here.
"And with living and business expenses at barely 40% of the big cities..."
Yes, it's cheap to live and work over there. I can believe that.
Not just the legal immigrants. George Lopez has a joke about his father being rabid on the subject of illegal immigration, even though he himself arrived in LA in the trunk of a car.
So yeah, I'm sure there are lots of immigrants who take the hard line. But your claim that all the ones you know are anti-undocs is a glib implausibility. I suspect that a more scientific survey would show that most people aren't happy about being in a permanent hassle because they have dark skin or funny accents.
Incidentally, guess who's an immigrant: me. But I'm a white guy from Canada, so I don't worry too much about being hassled. Still, I'd make sure my paperwork is order before visiting Arizona. I've already had some minor hassles after moving from California to Oregon. This "Illegals Are Destroying America" bit is just plain lame.
I've been in this field for a long-long time
I was in the Silicon Valley when the thing got started and I benefited handsomely
IMHO, the "Silicon Valley Phenomenon" is a one-time happening
It happened because of many factors
* The concentration of critical mass of coherent talents - mostly comprised of remnants of the hippies with their Groovy mindset, and earlier batch of the baby boomers who were, in one way or another, influenced by the hippies culture
* It occurred at a time when the "change culture" finally arrived at the tech scene - with hobbyists earnestly believed that they could build their own gadgets with solders and breadboards
* And the Silicon Valley happened to provide a venue, the place, for the talents to gather and trade their ideas
We also need to understand that the Silicon Valley phenomenon occurred way before Internet - which means, people _still_ had to congregate in ONE PHYSICAL PLACE in order to trade ideas
With Internet, people no longer need to gather physically in one place in order to trade ideas
There have been many attempts in repeating the "Silicon Valley Success" all over the world - from Boston USA to East London, UK to Japan to even third world countries such as Malaysia, but none ever achieve same level of success as Silicon Valley
Why?
Simply because there is no need for yet-another Silicon Valley
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Lost in these articles about all the virtues of areas outside Silicon Valley is the fact that the capitalization of Silicon Valley venture capital firms is an order of magnitude larger than the nearest competitors in New York City and Boston. Nowhere is even close when it comes to throwing money at startups. Where does Phoenix rate? It doesn't. If someone has a brilliant startup in Phoenix, and they manage to wrangle some venture capital, the first thing their investors will do is move them to Silicon Valley so they can keep tabs on them.
Sunscreen is hard on the filter. Tempe Marketplace? gimme a Harkins.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Ack, I accidentally deleted a couple of the budget lines when reformatting.
Roll back estate & capital gains taxes to Clinton era levels. Don't claim it will discourage investment, as there was plenty of investment back then: $80B
Eliminate corporate tax loopholes, while reducing the overall rates. Added benefit of making business a heck of a lot simpler: $80B
The numbers are mostly from the NY Times budget deficit "puzzle" from a couple years back, rounded to the nearest $10B.
I live oin Gilbert. I do not live in Phoenix.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
It's all the same metro area.
> who picked Phoenix due to...different quality of life
Lolz. They picked it because there is a computer engineering base there with Intel having a giant manufacturing campus there because the air, hot as it is, is very clean and thus easier to filter for chipmaking.
Anyway, how's the quality of life? Better? "Different."
"Ok I'm gonna open the door. Walk, don't run, to the car. Open the doors but don't get in yet. And don't touch any metal. God help yor soul if you do. Go go go go!"
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Here's a good reason nothing will come of this: Jan Brewer. Here's another: Joe Arpaio.
Adding in that this state actively resisted a Federal holiday for Martin Luther King, it becomes clear Arizona is merely 19th century Alabama with cactii.
So, why are you an immigrant to the U.S., since you believe that the federal laws, which Arizona law merely authorizes Arizona Law Enforcement Officers to enforce, are "plainly discriminatory and largely driven by old white men angrily brandishing guns?"
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
FYI, I am a green card holder, not an H1-B. I came over on a K1 fiance visa from Canada to marry my (now) wife.
As far as your argument that ICE can't be trusted because *insert conspiracy theory involving Obama here*, I don't respond to insanity.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Kansas City isn't the best town (like the whole state of AZ) to be caught in as a non-christian caucasian.
As a lifetime 'non-christian caucasian' and Missouri resident, living not far from KC, I say, without doubt, that you are full of shit. .
As a 'non-christian caucasian' and Missouri resident, living not far from KC, I say, without a doubt, that AC is not full of shit. Things have improved since I've been here but still.... there is the very definite odour of fundamentalist evangelical christianity. And the mormons, christ! Yes, jebus is coming back to Independence so lets build him a spiral staircase
Are you sure you're not talking about Branson? At least KC doesn't have annual hate conventions...
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
And oceans, and mountains, and good education, and good transportation, and better weather, and less christians, less fat people, better food, better art, better music, more sports, more outdoor activities, more diversity.
Wait ... what did the fly over states have again ?
Judging from your post, a lack of narcissistic douche-bags, apparently...
Love the irony of AC responding to a post criticizing coastal elitism with... wait for it... coastal elitism!
Classy.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
40% of Phoenix is Hispanic, 41% of Tuscon,
So again, how is AZ racist?
Any Illegal with a grain of brain power would pass through AZ to California where they will be welcomed with open arms.
Anyone who comes here illegally by definition is a criminal.
The fact is the law exists but is not enforced worth a shit.
We live in a country that is in some cases 20 times some others in size. Yet if anyone went to France tomorrow and Spain the next day they would find an enormous difference in customs, laws and Culture. Who are we to say that States here cannot have some differences in laws, customs and culture? I'm no farther from Fresno, Ca than I would be from Pamplona Spain to Limoges France. To expect every state to have the exact same culture and values is moronic.
You don't like it fine, but no one is forcing you to move there and live.
The people there want laws to have value, the current laws are being ignored by the the U.S Government if we go down this path of ignoring laws where do we stop?
Are we going to pick and choose which one's we're going to follow today?
Inane Comments are Generously Disregarded
There are lots of tech companies down in the valley. Technologic Systems is in Fountain Hills (on Laser Drive :-). There are many PCB assembly houses there too. And Advanced Circuits that does custom PCB fabrication just set up a facility there. Cost of living is far lower and the tax system is much more conducive than the Bay area. Want even cheaper? Set up shop in Prescott or Prescott Valley.
As an IT worker refugee from LA and San Diego, I can tell you I moved out here and not only immediately made more money than I had been in San Diego, I could afford to live here. I'm a bigger fish in a smaller pond. The tech sector is one area that has been pretty steady through all the downturn. Ebay, Paypal, Expedia, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Citibank all have major data center operations here. There are hundreds of Fortune 1000 companies with IT presence here. It's not just Intel with yet another new Fab in Chandler every couple of years. It may be hot as Hades, but land is cheap, power is cheap, connectivity is plentiful, the cost of living is low and the standard of living is high. I miss the ocean, but we have lots of beach.
Nothing to see here but us trolls...move along...
No, you're not.
Now, read your last clause. Federal law requires employers to check that their employees are legally able to work in the US. I've been asked to prove that for several jobs now (I usually bring my passport). It's one of those cases where I have to produce papers even though I'm a US citizen.
The reason you're getting swarms of illegal immigrants is because they can find jobs. They may seem bad to you, but they're what brings them here and allows them to stay here. Cut off the jobs and you drastically reduce the immigrant problem. That's what you're failing to do.
If Sheriff Joe would throw people who hire illegal immigrants into Tent City to await trial, the jobs would dry up and the immigrants would have to go home.
Of course, this would require that your law enforcement authorities actually find what everybody knows is going on, and arrest and prosecute US citizens who are guilty of nothing other than flagrant violation of the law (many of whom are likely well-known and well-off members of the community), so that may be unpopular. It will also raise prices for everything the illegals had been doing, since it will be necessary to hire US citizens who demand at least minimum wage and have effective legal recourse against the worst abuses, but that's at least a large part of the solution.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Ok...
First, I was referring to the sprint to the car for the neckbeards on Phoenix. Not frozen North types.
Second, I lived my first 51 years on Maine. Please do not try to educate me further on cold weather driving. I did 60,000mi/yr for over 12 winters, on call. In any weather.
You forgot to point out that getting the car running, scraping of the ice, and warming the cabin is merely the beginning. Then you must blast your way through the snowbank left by repeated passes of the street plow, having been thawed and refrozen by salt and the sun, since you are leaving after sundown, usually about 4pm at best. Overtime results on doing this long after sundown.
And thus gets you on the road, where if the black ice, packed snow at the intersections, or downhill runs don't get you, the idiots in their shiny SUVs will
I don't mind the heat .
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Even Santa Clara is practically a paradise [walkscore.com] compared to Phoenix.
That data does show Phoenix above the national average. Tempe is way above average.
They built the Brickyard right after I graduated, as a computer science student I would have loved that resource. I don't doubt there are chains on Mill now, but that's a far cry from everything being boarded up. At least there's still Greasy Tony's and the Chuck Box. I heard Hooter's caught on fire though. Again.
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
To be fair, SB1070 (the discriminatory law that made all the headlines) was authored by Russell Pearce that the citizens later impeached. He was thrown out of office by the people of his hometown. He's trying to get elected again. If he makes it, feel free to trash Arizona.
"If they have both, tell them we use Linux. And if they have that, tell them the computers are down." -Dave Chapelle
Actually federal law already requires ALL immigrants to register and carry some form of documentation at all times, legal or otherwise. A green card will suffice.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1304
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1306
So the "papers please" argument already applies nationwide.
You miss the point. Are US citizens required to carry documentation at all times? What happens when you ask for proof of citizenship from someone who actually is a citizen and is therefore not required to carry such proof?
I am against illegal immigration. I'm also against being asked to provide proof for such a thing while walking down the street. If I'm applying for a job, yes, you should be verifying I'm allowed to work. If I'm applying for a government position that requires citizenship, you should be verifying I'm a citizen. If a cop thinks that I might not be American because of a hunch, he can go fuck himself. He doesn't have the right to stop me because he thinks my tan is genetic.
RT 128 in Massachusetts had the tech boom before Silicon Valley really took off and surpassed it. Yet, enough of that early success lives on and keep real estate prices high. But people in Massachusetts realized that not all growth was good, and started to put limits on development back in the 70s. Thus, we still have a decent culture around in much of the area. The quality of life is considered far better in Massachusetts than in Silicon valley by many. Sure, there's not as many sunny days, but there's trees, snow, far lass pollution, open spaces (which are not deserts), and so forth. If you want a bit more freedom, less taxes, and less services, then go a few miles further north into New Hampshire and you've got it. But I am not proclaiming the glory of Massachusetts over Silicon Valley - housing prices are still high here, and taxes too. But some Yankees decided they'd like to retain the character of the place and set limits. This is sort of in line with what others have said, that there can not by another Silicon Valley. Instead of trying to duplicate SV, cities should try out their own formula for a successful economy and high quality of living. Focus on what the area can do best. In Mass, it is the deep roots of old money and old Universities. Other places may have sun and fun, others quiet and family-centered, and so forth. Phoenix sounds great if you like high temperatures, lots of sun, room to spread out, can speak Spanish, like pollution, prefer not to have stores within walking distance, etc. I am sure that's fine for many people but it just would never, ever do for me. Seattle, Halifax, Montreal, Vancouver, Dublin all might work for me. But none of them are going to be the 'next Silicon Valley'.
He's not denying it, he's anonymously calling you stupid for pointing out the obvious fact that he knows is true, and is too chickenshit to deal with in any other way than denials.
He's and AC for a reason.
About half the states have stop and identify laws, so I don't know what delusion (or state) you are living under, when you say that you have some sort of right to not be approached by a law officer.
It's illegal to lie to the police. If you are questioned, and they suspect you've lied about your immigration status, what then ? Just let them go ?
Let's be honest here; the goal of the pro illegal immigration people is to prevent by any means they can ANY kind of intervention, ANY kind of law enforcement towards people here illegally.
Their goal is to try to con stupid people, like yourself, into believing that you have some sort of immunity to having to interact with law enforcement people. You don't. If an officer wants to question you, if he finds something vague about you suspicious, he can stop you and ask you questions, PERIOD.
And you go ahead and think that an officer cares that you think he can go fuck himself, what are you, twelve years old ?
Come back in 15 years, sonny, when you have some real life experiences under your belt, you're an idiot.
GP is stating that being brown is enough to be suspected of being an illegal, which means if you are a Hispanic US citizen, unlike white US citizens in the same town, you MUST carry identification or risk being detained as an illegal.
Not even sure why I'm responding... The GP's claim was:
The police are empowered to ask for "papers, please" of anyone that they "suspect of being illegal". Which practically means, anyone mocha colored.
Which is absolutely, ignorantly, and stupidly false. AZ's law regarding the subject requires the exact same probable cause as demanding a person stopped on the street to empty their pockets, or wanting to enter a home to speak to a person's wife, or detaining a person to verify their identity, or any other attempt to obtain evidence or detain somebody without a warrant. Some cops might do so based on how you look: blacks near a bank, oh must have robbed it; redneck in a tank-top, he must have beat his wife, but that in no way changes what the law requires or indicates how other officers will apply it.
A cop is not allowed to demand you empty your pockets, or check your papers, or do anything other than ask your name, age, and address (without requiring documentation to prove it except in a few limited municipalities), unless they have other reasons to believe that you have contraband in your pocket, or are here illegally, or witnessed you speeding, or some other probable cause argument to do so. If they demand your papers without probable cause they violate the law just as if they randomly demanded somebody empty their pockets.
About half the states have stop and identify laws, so I don't know what delusion (or state) you are living under, when you say that you have some sort of right to not be approached by a law officer.
South Carolina, where we still believe in constitutional rights. And I've never said I have a right to not be approached by a law officer, I said I have the right to not talk to him or show him any identification. And I do.
Their goal is to try to con stupid people, like yourself, into believing that you have some sort of immunity to having to interact with law enforcement people. You don't. If an officer wants to question you, if he finds something vague about you suspicious, he can stop you and ask you questions, PERIOD.
An officer can stop and ask you questions at any time. You may also decline to answer at any time. You may also ask him questions such as, "am I free to go?". If he chooses to detain you, he has the right to do that. You still have the right to not answer any questions, even if you are arrested (and the officer is required by law to inform you of this right if he chooses to arrest you). If you are detained, you will be required to identify yourself (or you may be required to identify yourself by stating your name if you are not detained in certain states with stop and identify statues, but you're not required to provide them written identification). You can also sue the crap out of the department if you believe he had insufficient reason to arrest you.
Finally, even if we did live in the police state you describe, I don't see why you would accept it, instead of working to change it.
Come back in 15 years, sonny, when you have some real life experiences under your belt, you're an idiot.
Being called an idiot by someone like you is an honor, good sir. Some role models you choose to emulate, but there are also those that simply provide you with a reference for the kind of man you don't wish to become.
"Finally, even if we did live in the police state you describe, I don't see why you would accept it, instead of working to change it."
You're an idiot because you live in NC and somehow believe that you don't already live in a police state.
" And I've never said I have a right to not be approached by a law officer, I said I have the right to not talk to him or show him any identification."
You're an idiot because in the real world you may have the right not to talk to an officer, but go ahead and don't say anything and see how far THAT will get you. You'll be arrested on suspicion on the spot, no law enforcement officer is going to construe your refusal to speak at all as anything but obstruction.
It's idiotic to claim you have a right NOT to TALK to an officer, and then go on and on about all the things you HAVE to SAY to him to be allowed to go on your way.
So far as role models go, if you're on slahdot looking for them, you're even more of an idiot that I thought you were initially. Again, come back in 15 years when you actually have a little real world experience and have actually interacted with law enforcement sufficiently to HAVE a relevant opinion.
And don't delude yourself into thinking that SC is some sort of bastion of constitutional rights, that's the most idiotic thing you've written yet.
I am not racist (...). Every country but the US enforces its immigration laws (...). Schools are flooded where 70% of the kids are not US born, have limited english, get free health care, and their parents do not pay for taxes. (...) Sorry but if I spoke iwth my great American accent in London the police there have a right too to ask if I am there legally right?
Are you kidding me? Your blatant display of racism blinds you. US immigration laws are far more stringent and complex than in any other country I can name. It's such a nightmare to go there legally that it's much easier to swim across the Rio Grande, or to go in and out every three months sprinkled with month long breaks.
Also, to douse your utter ignorance, if you spoke with your great American accent in London, the police would assume you're a tourist. They'd never bother controlling your ID as a result, because they need to issue a receipt for controlling anyone -- complete with a justification for doing so. This is to avoid abuses and bullying of legal immigrants by the police. As a US citizen you could likely live there illegally for as long as you never get in trouble.