Windows 8 Is Ready

Let the bitching begin.... by jmorris42 · 2012-08-01 05:54 · Score: 5, Insightful

Microsoft seems to repeat mistakes don't they? DOS 4.0, Bob, ME, Vista; the public reaction to all should have been predictable enough that somebody in a corporation their size should have been able to see it coming and delay or abort the release of those turds. But no, they dropped em all and took the abuse and ridicule while apparently learning nothing. Now comes Windows 8.

Maybe they will have time to get Windows 9 right, maybe not. That is what has changed, before they were an unstoppable monopoly and now? We shall see. They have offended their OEM partners with the Surface tablet, the Developers, Developers, Developers! with the knifing of Silverlight and apparently the beginning of the end for both Win32 and .NET and I'm not convinced customers are going to be all that happy with what is about to be rammed down their thoat. All at a time when their monopoly is threatened like never before. The desktop PC itself is being questioned for most users, Office is threatened by Cloud apps and even the long standing stranglehold of Blackberry + Exchange is not looking very healthy about now.

Netcraft hasn't confirmed it yet but Microsoft just might be dying. And after hating on them for decades I'm not entirely sure I'm going to applaud when they exit the stage. The PC is likely to go with them, by which I mean the open platform anyone can write programs for and create add on hardware, etc. The post Microsoft future looks like a grim world of sealed media consumption devices for most and a return to 'workstations' for the select who can afford machines costing as much as a car.

Few will question anymore that Apple is a dark force of DRM and lockin. And the release of the Nexus 7 shows Google to be fast getting in touch with their Evil side. The only major difference (other than a model years' worth of hardware refresh) between it and the equally sealed up Amazon Fire is which app/media ecosystem it is bundled to.

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Democrat delenda est

Re:Let the bitching begin.... by skaag · 2012-08-01 05:57 · Score: 5, Funny

PC era gone? but wait... Steam is coming to Linux! We're saved!

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Re:Let the bitching begin.... by garcia · 2012-08-01 06:08 · Score: 4, Interesting

According to The Ed Bott Report on ZDNet, Microsoft is turning over an entirely new leaf in its history by taking cues from Apple and developing its own hardware/software "ecosystem" (I hate that term) and alienating its OEMs which have been just as slow and lackluster as Microsoft has been over the last few years.
If we accept Bott's analysis as at least somewhat valid, Microsoft may be on the road to recovery--at least if they develop and release products that people desire.
They're already copying Apple and Google's consistent theme (copying "Metro" UI elements to their rebranded Hotmail, outlook.com) and they're developing software and hardware together. Perhaps he's right and this will bode well for Microsoft in the future.
However, there is the part of me that says that those people who want that sort of thing had already jumped ship to Apple's own "ecosystem" and everyone else was just fine staying with Microsoft because of whatever reason (cost, support, application support, familiarity, etc).
Personally I think the Metro UI (and the other unified design deals) is ridiculous and meaningless for me to get my work done and it's not going to make me move away from other products I've been using more recently. However, perhaps it will work and their demise as stated by you may be averted for another few years.
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by gbjbaanb · 2012-08-01 06:08 · Score: 5, Interesting

I don't think they're killing it off, but it the "new VB". MS has rediscovered native code, so WinRT is entirely unmanaged, the .NET libs have been reworked to simply pass-through to the WinRT functionality and some minor parts removed.
All native and cloud development is moving towards C++ again, so .NET is left as a desktop development environment. Given the performance fixes are not making it back into the desktop versions of the old libs and I doubt any additional features will be ported there (except security), and that the concept is that your Metro code for the PC can also run on a table or a phone, and the native push for those environments, I think you can see how .NET development is now a 'you can, but...' partner, not the primary focus for development.
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by DAldredge · 2012-08-01 06:16 · Score: 4, Informative

See I know you know better then what you are saying so it makes me wonder why you are deliberately spreading information that is wrong and so easily verifiable as not correct. http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011/TOOL-531T "And you have your choice of world-class development tools and languages. JavaScript, C#, VB, C++, C, HTML, CSS, XAML, all for X86-64 and ARM." "This is an extremely important point: If you go and build your Metro style app in JavaScript and HTML, in C# or in XAML, that app will just run when there's ARM hardware available. So, you donâ(TM)t have to worry about that. Just write your application in HTML5, JavaScript and C# and XAML and your application runs across all the hardware that Windows 8 supports." http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/exec/ssinofsky/2011/09-13BUILD.aspx
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-01 06:17 · Score: 2

Apple didn't invent the "hardware/software" setup. It's been that way since the beginning of home computers. The IBM PC was the one strange thing in that you could install any OS on it.
Amiga, Atari ST, Commodore 64, Commodore 128, CoCo 2, CoCo 3, Apple II, etc. All computer+OS setups. Sure you could install something else on most of those but the default setup was hardware+software.
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by HerculesMO · 2012-08-01 06:19 · Score: 5, Interesting

Too bad the only games that will follow onto the Linux steam platform are games you've already beaten 5 or 6 years ago on the PC.
Best of luck getting Valve to convince other dev studios to port games to Linux at a huge expense, when the audience simply isn't there. Linux on the desktop is dead. It's linux on the "device" that has a chance. I know why Valve is pushing towards Linux because the Windows 8 App store will eat their lunch, but realistically nothing is going to change. Windows 8 has gotten more idiot proof than usual, and that's what draws in people that don't already somehow have a PC.

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The price is always right if someone else is paying.
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by jmorris42 · 2012-08-01 06:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

Before they had a monopoly. OEMs had no choice, neither did customers. You ran Windows, whether this year's version sucked or not. If you were an enterprise you had the option to get your new machines licensed with the non-sucking version but end users just sucked it up.
That is what is now in doubt. Will people just sigh and buy that PC with the Win8 turd on the drive anyway, because they still feel they have no other choice, or do they go ahead and move to a tablet. Cut total boxes shipped in half and the economies of scale come into question in a world where even flat sales is considered a disaster by the stock market. AMD will certainly be dead leaving Intel to carry the workstation CPU flag forward alone. Dell would survive but HP probably dies. Enough of the chop shops and builders leave and the flood of generic 'PC' motherboard and other parts start to dry up. That is the phones/tablets/consoles vs workstation future I worry about.

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Democrat delenda est
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by man_of_mr_e · 2012-08-01 06:25 · Score: 4, Informative

The .NET libs have always passed through to the native code, At some point native code must be called in order to function.

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Re:Let the bitching begin.... by MightyMartian · 2012-08-01 06:46 · Score: 2

OEMs are what made Microsoft what it is. They've tolerated a small amount of Microsoft branding, but if Microsoft rocks that boat too much, then Redmond better have a big plan to make up for what is basically the foundation on which the whole company is built. Microsoft deciding to become like IBM of old at this point, so far as I can see, carries substantial risks (though, of course, if it works, would have substantial rewards).

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Re:Let the bitching begin.... by jmorris42 · 2012-08-01 06:58 · Score: 2

Ug, couldn't ya have posted a shorter page. :)
So Google and Moz are pissed that only Microsoft can get to native code but googling does seem to confirm that some layer other than just the hyped html5 stuff is being partly exposed on ARM but Metro is the only permitted API. Confusing. Meh, they will either break down and allow third party native code or nobody is going to care about WinRT. Even Google relented on the Java or bust dictate with Android. I'm betting then also give in and let 3rd parties port Win32 applications.

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Democrat delenda est
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by man_of_mr_e · 2012-08-01 06:59 · Score: 5, Interesting

First, Microsoft usually doesn't view much of anything as a total failure. Like many, they view their mistakes as market research. When they do something really wrong, they learn from it.
Bob may have been a failure, but they learned a lot from it, and it lead to other products like the (also abhorred but largely successful) MS Agent technology (aka clippy, fido, etc..)
Neither ME or Vista were failures per se. ME was never intended to be anything other than a stopgap. MS had intended to transition Windows 9x users to Windows 2000, but when that got pushed back to XP, MS had to come up with a stopgap for OEM's to provide new hardware support. It was held together with chewing gum and twine, to try and extend the life for just a few months more...
Vista, likewise, was not a failure either, in that it was never intended to be a success. It was a "hatchet man", that was put out in order to get ISV's and OEM's to follow the new security rules. It was also intended to be really annoying so that vendors would fix their software to be UAC friendly. MS knew Windows 7 would come along and replace it, and by then the issues would be solved both in vendors and software.
DOS 4 was just a huge steaming pile, though.

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Re:Let the bitching begin.... by jmorris42 · 2012-08-01 07:08 · Score: 4, Insightful

I can see where Microsoft is coming from actually. Dell, HP, etc. add almost nothing anymore. They all just rebadge stuff made in the same Chinese factories Apple, the phone makers, etc. gets their stuff from. So why leave the profits currently going to Dell and friends on the table? Cut out the middleman AND gain agility to innovate. The downside of course that with that vast 'PC' ecosystem out there competing it ensures that one lame batch of designers can't kill off the PC as a platform. And Microsoft has never been known as a 'innovator' or even particularly creative. They ain't no Apple. Heck, they have never been known to even play at the level of a Sony or Samsung. They better get really good, really fast because they have pretty much declared open season on the OEM partners.

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Democrat delenda est
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by Billly+Gates · 2012-08-01 07:10 · Score: 2

Before they had a monopoly. OEMs had no choice, neither did customers. You ran Windows, whether this year's version sucked or not. If you were an enterprise you had the option to get your new machines licensed with the non-sucking version but end users just sucked it up.
That is what is now in doubt. Will people just sigh and buy that PC with the Win8 turd on the drive anyway, because they still feel they have no other choice, or do they go ahead and move to a tablet. Cut total boxes shipped in half and the economies of scale come into question in a world where even flat sales is considered a disaster by the stock market. AMD will certainly be dead leaving Intel to carry the workstation CPU flag forward alone. Dell would survive but HP probably dies. Enough of the chop shops and builders leave and the flood of generic 'PC' motherboard and other parts start to dry up. That is the phones/tablets/consoles vs workstation future I worry about.
I worked in a computer shop 2 years ago and we made tens of thousands of dollars uninstalling Vista and Windows 7 and replacing them with Windows XP. Many users even came and bought used machines because XP support was better. This was almost a year after Windows 7 came out too. XP is not going away as many view it as supperior (non geeks) and in many ways it still is albiet very obsolete and insecure.
Sadly the non geek users I showed Windows 8 too loved it with one of my exgfs thinking it was cute and loved the fact it only had limited colors and choices as choices are all sooo scary. My father is non technical and has an IPAD. I showed him Windows 8 and he thought it was a relief from XP as it is was simple and could just point and click on the cute tiles to do things.
I hope I am wrong as us geeks hate the damn thing and want to burn it. The desktop can be usable but I feel like its a downgrade or part of some crippleware express edition.

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Re:Let the bitching begin.... by MightyMartian · 2012-08-01 07:14 · Score: 2

The problem here is that HP and Dell both have significant inroads into the corporate, small and medium sized business worlds (well, Acer and Lenovo are also doing alright there as well). If Microsoft sets itself up as a competitor to these companies, this is going to significantly alter the landscape. I can well imagine these companies looking at throwing resources behind something like Android and making a corporate version of it.
I think if it's just tablets, then it's a pretty small portion of the whole and the OEMs, while probably not happy, will go along. If the strategy moves much beyond that, into more general purpose PCs, then this is a major shift.

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The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by jmorris42 · 2012-08-01 07:19 · Score: 4, Informative

> I really wish Valve would do a general App store, beyond games...
You don't get it do you. Value does, which is why they are prepared to run a Hail Mary pass; their balls are in a vise and they know it.
Once the Microsoft Market takes over there is no place for a third party store. The App stores aren't about the improved customer experience. They aren't about security. The whole point of the App Store model is everyone saw Apple rake off thirty thick juicy points from each and every sale and Microsoft wants in. If they don't do it today, they will do it next version; only App Store purchased apps will run and any 'in app' purchases will be required to be fulfilled through the app store, exactly the same rules as Apple so no possibility of an Anti-Trust action cranking up.
Steam on WIndows will be as impotent as Amazon is on iProducts.
And yes Apple will also eventually pull the trigger on OS X apps being required to come from the App Store, and for the same reason. To them the question is "Do we want 30% of the sticker price on Adobe's Creative Suite and all those high priced plugins, fonts, etc?" And if you ask that question the only possible answer is pretty obvious, isn't it?

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Re:Let the bitching begin.... by CastrTroy · 2012-08-01 07:28 · Score: 2

Please listen to this podcast. WinRT doesn't replace .Net, and it isn't a "Runtime" in the same sense that the CLR is a "Runtime".

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Re:Let the bitching begin.... by CohibaVancouver · 2012-08-01 07:30 · Score: 3, Informative

The IBM PC was the one strange thing in that you could install any OS on it.
My TRS-80 ran TRS-DOS, UltraDOS, DOSPlus, NewDOS/80, LDOS,..
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by mcgrew · 2012-08-01 07:49 · Score: 4, Interesting

Although I agree that W8 is a clusterfuck of epic proportions, a lot of what you say just doesn't hold water.
That is what has changed, before they were an unstoppable monopoly and now?
They're still an unstoppable monopoly; try buying a PC with a different OS.
I'm not convinced customers are going to be all that happy with what is about to be rammed down their thoat.
Their customers are OEMs and enterprises, not you or me. I'm not their customer, Acer is; I'm Acer's customer. Enterprise customers are likely to skip 8 like they did Vista, we'll see whether or not OEMs start shipping Linux desktops (I, for one, would be happy if they did).
All at a time when their monopoly is threatened like never before.
Their monopoly is in desktop operating systems and office software, where is the threat?
The desktop PC itself is being questioned for most users
For every home computer, there are ten in the workplace, the tablet may replace PCs in most homes, but I wouldn't bet too much money on it.
Office is threatened by Cloud apps
Pure marketing hype. "The cloud" is unlikely to gain traction among enterprise users, even very many home users.
"The post Microsoft future looks like" Mark Twain, who said "reports of my death are greatly exaggerated". Mocrosoft isn't even in the doctor's office, let alone the grave. And if Microsoft went away, OEMs would just use Linux or Android or BSD. Computers aren't going away any time soon.

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Re:Let the bitching begin.... by jamstar7 · 2012-08-01 08:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

Windows 8 has gotten more idiot proof than usual, and that's what draws in people that don't already somehow have a PC.
Thing is, make something idiot proof, the universe evolves a better class of idiots.

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Re:Let the bitching begin.... by gman003 · 2012-08-01 08:27 · Score: 2

If the rumors (which I personally don't believe) of a Linux-powered Steam Console are true, that's incentive enough.
The Ouya (or however the fuck it's spelled) managed to get somewhat-mainstream promises of support, and that's for a low-power, crowd-funded Android console. You take Valve, possibly the best game studio on the planet (and definitely the best self-funded studio), who already has a large-scale relationship with most publishers and has experimented with acting as a publisher itself, and have *THEM* launch a console? It would get publisher support. Activision would jump on it. Zenimax (id + Bethesda) would jump on it. Rockstar would jump on it. THQ, if it manages to survive that long, will jump on it. EA would take some time, but if it gains market parity with Microsoft and Sony, EA will come around. Square Enix and Konami might move slowly (Japanese developers rarely move onto American consoles immediately).
Now, most likely, the Steambox rumors are just that - rumors. But it's within the realm of possibility, and it would make Linux ports more attractive (porting from Windows to Linux is hard - porting from a semi-proprietary Linux to Linux is easy).
Just idle speculation on my part.
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by MightyMartian · 2012-08-01 08:35 · Score: 2

Microsoft is no longer without competition, and if it starts biting the hand that has fed it for a quarter century, it may find that that competition suddenly starts getting a lot more attention.

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Re:Let the bitching begin.... by jbolden · 2012-08-01 09:01 · Score: 2

Gamers used to be very willing to boot to a gaming OS. It was standard to have a "gaming" configuration of DOS and a "windows" configuration in the Windows 3.0/3.1/95 days. I see no reason if Linux had strong gaming support that their wouldn't be gamer machines sold with Linuxes tweaked to optimize gaming. That honestly is a pretty good niche for Linux, a place where custom kernel could really matter. And heck the hardware OEMs would probably love a product where they could do a real value ad and make some margin.
I have no idea how big the gaming market is, but it seems to be carrying several midsized computer companies. So why not?
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by IntlHarvester · 2012-08-01 09:08 · Score: 2

It was the Vista of the MS-DOS series -- everyone decided it sucked without trying it.

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Re:Let the bitching begin.... by jbolden · 2012-08-01 09:15 · Score: 2

Non-Apple consumer x86 sales are down 10% year over year. That tablet and cell phone replacement is already happening in consumer.
It was great when there were generous margins and rapidly growing sales.
It was good when margins tightened but sales still surged.
It was getting kinda sucky when margin collapsed but at least sales kept surging.
It got worse when sales flattened out.
Now we are facing the real possibility of sales collapsing.
Microsoft is doing what they can to fend that off. If they are going to fend that off they need to change the platform ecosystem: OS, hardware, development libraries, software... and they need to do this fast. They need to do this in a platform that moribund. Hopefully confronted with Windows 8, consumers start buying the devices they will work on. Dell, Asus, HP... now how to make those devices they just don't know how to make them for $500.
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by jbolden · 2012-08-01 09:22 · Score: 2

The IBM PC was the one strange thing in that you could install any OS on it.
No it was just as locked down. Microsoft, Intel and Western Digital created the standard that allowed IBM compatibles to get compatible enough that this became a multi vendor platform with Intel and Microsoft in the driver's seat.
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by jbolden · 2012-08-01 09:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

Apple doesn't make much money from the App store, even on iOS where it is mandatory. The cost of the App store covers the cost Apple overseeing and supervising the apps. What it does do, is make customers feel comfortable installing anything. And that allows for direct comparisons which drive the cost of software way down, which makes the hardware more valuable.
Interestingly its seem to have had that impact on high end apps as well, driving the cost of Apple's software down about 80%. Logic is down from $1k to $200, Aperture from $500 to $80, etc..
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by Nerdfest · 2012-08-01 10:09 · Score: 2

I'm fairly sure that software in Metro is only available through the Microsoft 'market' and must be 'vetted' by them. They get a cut of all sales as well of course.
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by hairyfeet · 2012-08-01 10:11 · Score: 3, Interesting

Dude look YOU know what this is and I know what this is...its a Hail Mary pass. MSFT is finally starting to realize that one we hit muilticore PCs went from being the needed to constantly upgrade of the MHz wars right past good enough and into insanely overpowered territory for a good 80-90% of the buying public. What is Joe Average User or Bill Businessman gonna use their PC for that needs more than a Phenom I quad or even a Core Duo? As a PC seller and repairman I can tell you the answer is "not a damned thing" as I have plenty of customers on those first gen Phenom triples and quads or Intel Duos and quads and other than adding more RAM or HDD space those units are insanely overpowered compared to the work they have.
So all those users aren't gonna be buying new PCs until those die which could take years Hell I've done upgraded them to Win 7 and I can easily see those units lasting until win 7 goes EOL in 2020 because frankly? They're not even being stressed, the users just can't feed these multicore monsters enough useful work to really heat the chips. Hell I'm seeing the same thing with laptops, the work people do when mobile is pretty much netbook territory, webmail, surfing, videos, a little light office work, so even the laptops aren't getting slammed and thus just not wearing out like they used to. Oh there will always be people buying PCs, the gamers, the content creators, those that kill their current unit, but there isn't gonna be the kind of growth that gives wall street a stiffie.
So Win 8 is a Hail Mary pass for MSFT, a way for them to take one more shot at the juicy tablet/smartphone brass ring. Will it work? Doubtful but at this point MSFT really has nothing to lose by trying it. If businesses and consumers balk unlike with Vista where all they had to offer was a creaky old XP with 32 bit limitations now they can just say "Fine take Windows 7" and not lose anything. After all its not like they don't already pretty much own desktops and laptops. But by trying it now, when many are just now looking at Win 7 they think they can get people used to the "Metro" UI and then they won't balk when they see a WinPhone or WinTab like they have with WinPhone 7.
Would I have done it that way? Nope I think its a dumb move, they should have spun off mobile and let them innovate without being tied to the legacy of Windows and Office. But frankly at this point MSFT really has nothing to lose, as the money they blow on win 8 if it flops is nothing compared to how they will be tied to X86 which honestly will probably stay at the current numbers with zero growth unless some "killer app" comes along that can actually strain these monsters and we're not seeing that, even in gaming anymore for the most part. So they might as well throw the Hail Mary and see if they can pick up some ground because the clock is running out and they are waaaay behind in the game.

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Re:Let the bitching begin.... by art123 · 2012-08-01 10:15 · Score: 2

Did you just put .NET in the does not work pile and Objective-C in the does work? I think I see flying pigs out my window.
You sound like you know nothing about Microsoft APIs. MFC is a C++ framework to make Win32 UIs a little easier to write. WinForms is the managed wrapper for Win32 UIs. WFC has nothing to do with UIs.
The OS team at Microsoft has always been about C and COM. Nothing has changed.
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by MindlessAutomata · 2012-08-01 10:54 · Score: 2

Not to mention a lot of Vista's problems were due to driver issues and not necessarily MS's
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by Osty · 2012-08-01 17:10 · Score: 2

Don't forget the reviled "Vista Basic", allowing OEMs to install Vista on machines it was never supposed to run on. Vista was a little too far ahead of its time, as evidenced by the fact that Windows 8 and Windows Vista (Premium experience) share the exact same minimum requirements.
Still, Vista wasn't as bad as people like to pretend. A lot of the "bad" was around drivers as you mentioned, OEM issues, and behavior changes for users stuck in their ways (which usually tends to be the self-proclaimed "power users" more than "normal" users), and probably most importantly the extended development period and mostly public failure of the dev team (the ~2005 reset, for example). Judged by itself, with proper hardware and drivers, Vista was actually pretty good. Just the Start Menu search by itself was enough to make it worth it for me.
Re:Let the bitching begin.... by qubezz · 2012-08-01 20:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

Windows 8 has gotten more idiot proof than usual, and that's what draws in people that don't already somehow have a PC.
Thing is, make something idiot proof, the universe evolves a better class of idiots.
Idiots are so ingenious that they've written themselves an OS.

Let the derisive laughter commence! by Chas · 2012-08-01 05:55 · Score: 2

Where'd I put my popcorn?

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This can only mean one thing by l0ungeb0y · 2012-08-01 05:55 · Score: 5, Funny

Lotus wont run!
Nor much of anything else for that matter.

Re:This can only mean one thing by mystikkman · 2012-08-01 06:24 · Score: 2

Lotus wont run!
Nor much of anything else for that matter.
Make that Lotus Notes and here's $39.99 !

Brace yourselves by Rinikusu · 2012-08-01 05:57 · Score: 5, Funny

Everyone on slashdot is about to become a UI expert.

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Re:Brace yourselves by Sir_Sri · 2012-08-01 06:00 · Score: 5, Funny

After using windows 8 for an hour you'll at least know what not to do.
Re:Brace yourselves by gmuslera · 2012-08-01 06:02 · Score: 5, Funny

start using it?
Re:Brace yourselves by Ynot_82 · 2012-08-01 06:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

As if the UI is the worst thing about it...
Valve isn't lambasting windows 8, and porting all their games to Linux because of the UI
Re:Brace yourselves by slashmydots · 2012-08-01 06:07 · Score: 4, Informative

Well I actually am a UI designer (.NET even) and Metro is a crime against computing. Whoever invented it should be shot. No sub directories? The whole thing turns microscopic if you install too many things? Apps mixed in with what you're actually looking for? Ugh.
Re:Brace yourselves by i+kan+reed · 2012-08-01 06:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

Everyone on slashdot is about to become a UI expert.
Because it requires an expert on bovine biology to recognize bullshit.
Re:Brace yourselves by zlives · 2012-08-01 06:15 · Score: 4, Funny

thats because you are viewing it in 2d only... its optimized for immersive 3d display technology on a 80 inch screen. just put on your 3d glasses and it will all make sense.
Re:Brace yourselves by CFBMoo1 · 2012-08-01 06:16 · Score: 3, Funny

"Everyone on slashdot is about to become a UI expert." I'll have you know sir that not only do I have 40 years of UI experience but also AOEs as well. So I'm more then qualified to talk about vowels. Now consonants on the other hand I'm always QQ'n about.

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Re:Brace yourselves by Eponymous+Coward · 2012-08-01 06:31 · Score: 2

There are actually a lot of good performance-based reasons to adopt Windows 8. I don't like Metro with a mouse and keyboard, but I might still upgrade to Windows 8 for the performance improvements.
The server side is even more interesting. AFAIK, this is the first Microsoft server OS that can be run without a GUI, using only PowerShell.
Re:Brace yourselves by NatasRevol · 2012-08-01 06:34 · Score: 5, Funny

How? There's no Start button. 20 years of memory mapping, down the toilet.

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Re:Brace yourselves by JDG1980 · 2012-08-01 06:35 · Score: 3, Informative

Everyone on slashdot is about to become a UI expert.
As Bob Dylan put it, you don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing.
Re:Brace yourselves by turkeyfeathers · 2012-08-01 06:35 · Score: 5, Funny

Apparently, what is hard is coming up with a sucky GUI... I hear it took Microsoft two years.
Re:Brace yourselves by ndege · 2012-08-01 07:52 · Score: 3, Insightful

Win 2008 can run headless. Here is now to do it.
The more interesting thing is that Microsoft now requires all server apps be able to run without a GUI. There was also a /. story about it.
BTW, nice 4 digit /. UID. :)

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Re:Brace yourselves by vux984 · 2012-08-01 08:11 · Score: 5, Informative

No sub directories? The whole thing turns microscopic if you install too many things?
Uh... no... it pages.
Apps mixed in with what you're actually looking for? Ugh.
Uh... no... search results are categorized.
I don't dispute that you are a UI designer, but I seriously question whether you've actually used Windows 8 yet.
Re:Brace yourselves by shutdown+-p+now · 2012-08-01 09:48 · Score: 2

See, that's what they mean by intuitive UI design - it subtly forces you into doing the right thing (or, as it may be, into not doing the wrong thing). ~
Re:Brace yourselves by stewbacca · 2012-08-01 14:59 · Score: 2

Yep. Every slashdot nerd should be forced to read The Non-Designers Design Book. We all (generally) can spot a good design, but very few of us can say WHY something is good. Once you can say why something is good, then you can actually design things that are good.

Re:Windows 8 seems like a solid product by jmorris42 · 2012-08-01 05:57 · Score: 5, Informative

Says the account with exactly three posts, all posted today and all praising Windows 8.

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Democrat delenda est

TERRIBLE! by bhlowe · 2012-08-01 05:59 · Score: 3, Informative

I installed it this morning on a second drive.. The installer forced me to enter an email, my name, zipcode, birthdate, and sex to complete the installation. Are you kidding me?! Welcome to 1984.

The start menu is gone as are control panels and anything that resembles Windows 7. I spent 2 minutes searching for the "restart" command and eventually just clicked the power button. UGH... Terrible.... DO NOT INSTALL OVER YOUR WINDOWS 7 UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING.

Re:TERRIBLE! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-01 06:08 · Score: 3, Interesting

Ive been using the beta for a while now. Yes a few things are oddly placed - you no longer hit start to stop your computer for one.
The new start menu actually rocks - My start menu use to be a horrid mess where all I did was use the Windows 7 search feature - Which is now how I use Windows 8 - Hit the start thing type the name of what you want hit enter
Windows 8 is in many ways MUCH MORE keyboard driven and geek centric - I like it really !
Re:TERRIBLE! by Anonymous Coward · 2012-08-01 06:09 · Score: 4, Informative

For the RC^HP it was optional, but not that obvious (like a cop and reading your rights). In RTM you MUST use an e-mail account to install the non-enterprise OSes. You can make it all up but you will regret it.
Re:TERRIBLE! by JDG1980 · 2012-08-01 06:38 · Score: 2

you no longer hit start to stop your computer for one
The launch menu button hasn't been labeled "Start" since Windows XP. Sure, most of us still call it the Start Menu out of habit, and the icon used to bring it up is officially known as the "Start Orb", but your talking points are 6 years out of date.
Re:TERRIBLE! by AmiMoJo · 2012-08-01 06:59 · Score: 3, Informative

You just failed the Windows 8 IQ test. You are not forced to enter those things as all, you just couldn't find the "skip" button.

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const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Re:TERRIBLE! by Missing.Matter · 2012-08-01 07:30 · Score: 3, Informative

I love how this gets modded +4 informative when it's completely factually wrong.

1) When you install Windows it asks for you to create a Microsoft Account (which asks for those items, none of which you are required to be valid), sign in with a Microsoft Account, or run as a local user. You can choose to be a local user, where you log in with a user name and password and aren't linked to any external services like mail or calendar.

2) The start menu is gone, so get used to that (although you can install a replacement that mimics it if you really want), but the old control panel is not, and the desktop including explorer is not. I don't know how you could possibly miss it.

3) As for restart, it's still in the most obvious places it used to be including when you log out, or on the crtl+alt+del screen. They did move it from the start screen (because how much sense does it make to press start to shut down?), but moved it to the settings (along with wifi, brightness, and other common options) which is accessible from any app, including the desktop.
Re:TERRIBLE! by squiggleslash · 2012-08-01 08:05 · Score: 3, Informative

I just moused over the Start button (sorry, the circle with a Windows logo in it) on my bog standard Windows 7 PC, and the tooltip "Start" came up.
So yeah, you still press Start to Stop your PC. Not that that's a problem, it's just amusing.

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You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Re:TERRIBLE! by Old97 · 2012-08-01 09:08 · Score: 2

So what is this button in the lower left hand corner of my screen and the label that says "Start" for? I'm running XP.

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Very often, people confuse simple with simplistic. The nuance is lost on most. - Clement Mok
Re:TERRIBLE! by camperdave · 2012-08-01 10:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

So yeah, you still press Start to Stop your PC.
What is people's beef with starting a shutdown process?

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When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Re:TERRIBLE! by Arashi256 · 2012-08-02 01:50 · Score: 2

True actually. I skipped it no problem. It was only later I linked my login to my hotmail account. Please bitch about stuff that is an actual problem, not just your ineptitude.

They are ready to hit... by sinij · 2012-08-01 06:00 · Score: 4, Funny

MS is ready to hit START BUTTON with Win8 production.

I can't not wait. by tetrahedrassface · 2012-08-01 06:01 · Score: 3, Funny

I guess it's time to upgrade from Me... is that even possible? I like Me. I feel like a failure.

Re:I can't not wait. by Moheeheeko · 2012-08-01 06:07 · Score: 2

waitwaitwaitwaitWAIT
You LIKE ME?
There must be something seriously wrong with you.
Re:I can't not wait. by tetrahedrassface · 2012-08-01 06:09 · Score: 4, Funny

Yeah I like you... Is that bad?
Re:I can't not wait. by Yvan256 · 2012-08-01 06:20 · Score: 2

Indeed. 98SE is the best!
Re:I can't not wait. by Teresita · 2012-08-01 06:40 · Score: 2

I dread the day I can't find video adaptor drivers for Win98SE anymore. It's great. Least bloated OS that still gets online.

I have to say... by UltimaBuddy · 2012-08-01 06:02 · Score: 2

I am not familiar with this new definition of the word 'ready'

Re:Windows 8 seems like a solid product by zlives · 2012-08-01 06:02 · Score: 4, Funny

at first i was like.. shill? but then i was like... douche?

Re:Windows 8 seems like a solid product by Moheeheeko · 2012-08-01 06:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

and posted at the exact same time as the artice, without the asterisk of "I saw this before you"

so... by slashmydots · 2012-08-01 06:04 · Score: 3, Funny

So, they removed metro?

Re:Windows 8 seems like a solid product by jellomizer · 2012-08-01 06:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

Ok...
I also like Windows 8 too. I am not sure why this is at -1. I guess moderators are Rabid Windows Haters today.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.

IIs too much like linux..... by who_stole_my_kidneys · 2012-08-01 06:06 · Score: 2

It is an absolute disaster on the desktop, looks silly, and works great on embedded devices \ single purpose devices.

An auspicious date by Bonker · 2012-08-01 06:09 · Score: 3, Insightful

Of course there are many, many factors leading to the downfall of Microsoft. We've been reading about them for years as the 800 Pound Gorilla from Redmond has been slowly breaking its bones under its own weight.

Most people will point to the fact that Microsoft's failures have ensured that more people are using Linux worldwide than ever before... in the form of Android smartphones. MS *could* have had that market, but they continued to present shit products in the face of (at least perceived) quality goods from Apple and Google.

We've also heard in the last few days and weeks about how serious Valve is about getting their products to be 'Native' for Linux. We're going to see more of that, especially as more and more game designers want to develop for smart-phones.

Going forward, Microsoft's plans for smartphone development look pretty dismal. They're not even supporting their own technologies or frameworks, like Silverlight.

Ultimately, however, I think that shipping an WindowsME-bad desktop OS while this massive paradigm shift is happening is going to have long-reaching and long-lasting effects. Unlike when WinME shipped, there are some pretty darn good alternatives for development on both phones and PCs right now. When Win8 starts flopping around like a hooked carp, it's not going to be just the developers looking for an exit. It's going to be gamers and home-users as well. This time that exit is pretty darn visible.

And today is the day that flopping carp was hooked.

Captcha: resisted. How oddly apropos...

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The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!

Re:An auspicious date by squiggleslash · 2012-08-01 08:15 · Score: 2

I think it's important to remember that Windows 8 is a reaction to the problems Microsoft is having. They're developing a UI that'll be consistent across their systems that will work well on phones, and Windows 8 itself is designed to be just as at home on a tablet as a PC. The only thing I can see that's potentially an issue (having not used 8 since the original beta, so it might have improved a lot since) is that Metro might not be ideal on the desktop, and might even be actively off-putting enough for Windows 8 to be Vista to Windows 7's XP.
I admit as a free software enthusiast, I find 8 scary. It has a huge amount of potential, and if Microsoft gets what it wants, the progress made with Android in making a genuinely popular free and open platform may be reversed.
They certainly have the potential. Surface looks like a genuinely good tablet; there's no reason to think Windows will be displaced on the desktop; and well, that leaves the mobile space, and it's possible, however unlikely it seems now, that Microsoft can use Metro to sell that.

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You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Re:An auspicious date by jmorris42 · 2012-08-01 09:45 · Score: 2

> > "Fat people: the singing canary in the mineshaft of freedom" -Dennis Miller
> What the fuck does that .SIG even mean?
Miller was obviously riffing the whole Bloomberg vs fat thing. But he was wrong. The canary was smokers. When they came for them we did nothing, because the smoke was annoying anyway so screw em. We were warned at the time that it wouldn't stop there. It didn't. Now we calmly discuss whether salt should be banned instead of yelling "WTF! What sort of fascist f*ck would even suggest telling a restaurant that it can't put out salt shakers. Your political career is ovah!" In other words, the fight on the big issue of freedom is over and we are debating the style of the chains we shall wear.

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Democrat delenda est
Re:An auspicious date by WrongMonkey · 2012-08-01 10:06 · Score: 2

Consumers aren't going to leave Windows to other desktop operating systems, they're going to leave the desktop altogether. Gamers will continue the migration to consoles and casual PC users will get tablets. Windows will be left to compete for the attention of power users, who are knowledgeable enough to consider Linux, and businesses, who upgrade their computers about every third OS release.

Killing the Start Button... by jdastrup · 2012-08-01 06:09 · Score: 5, Insightful

Killing the Start Button is like building a house without a front door. Sure, I use the garage door 99% of the time. According to Microsoft, this is reason to get rid of the front door.

Re:Killing the Start Button... by i+kan+reed · 2012-08-01 06:49 · Score: 3, Funny

Nice try liar. Slashdot dates from 1997.
Re:Killing the Start Button... by Hatta · 2012-08-01 08:06 · Score: 2

It doesn't have a start button, but it does have the start menu constantly unfurled at the bottom of the screen. At least the start menu goes away when you're not using it, and it doesn't conflate the concepts of program execution and task switching.

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Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!

No local user account by default by rl117 · 2012-08-01 06:10 · Score: 2, Informative

You can actually just use a local account--but it's not the default, and is quite unobvious. It took me several minutes to find, after being very reluctant to send all that personal information to Microsoft. I think that this subterfuge to prevent you having a local account by default is quite naughty, and I wouldn't be surprised if they get into trouble for it.

What matters is the kernel by MSRedfox · 2012-08-01 06:11 · Score: 4, Insightful

Everyone complains about the new Metro interface. I've been running Win8 preview for a while now and while I've adapted to the new interface, it does still bugs me. But complaining about it is like arguing about KDE vs Gnome; you can castrate the Metro interface to look like Win7 with 3rd party software. What really matters is the kernel. It may break some applications and for those people Win8 is a bad choice. But from my experience, the new kernel is runs better than Win7 (which is saying a lot given how much better 7 was than Vista). Several games I tested got a nice frame-per-second boost (or at least performed equally) under Win8 vs Win7. So for me it's worth it to upgrade but I suppose your mileage may vary and as benchmarks come out we can see more about how the kernel performs on different systems.

Re:What matters is the kernel by neminem · 2012-08-01 06:35 · Score: 2

Why would you want it to look like Win7? Win7's interface sucked almost as much as Win8.
I do agree that Win7's kernel is much better than XP (and -obviously- better than Vista's), but I disagree that the kernel is all that matters - it certainly does matter, but so does the UI, as there's only so much you can do, and unless you want to implement it yourself, you're also reliant on the third-party software actually existing. I would know - I've modded as much of the Win7 interface as I can to behave more like XP, but while I have found decent reproductions of the old start menu and old taskbar, I haven't found a perfect file manager yet. CubicExplorer has a great UI but but is slow and full of bugs; explorer++ is mostly great but has a couple important file manager features (notably, file undo-redo) just not implemented, and doesn't seem to be actively maintained by anyone anymore, and that's about it for decent Windows file managers attempting to be XP-explorer-like.
So yes, it -is- just like arguing about KDE vs Gnome: they both suck, and so do all the alternatives. I'd rather use explorer++, or for that matter, even native Win7 explorer, than KDE, Gnome, xfce, etc; meanwhile, if someone gave me a Linux file manager that was an exact visual-and-feature reproduction of XP's explorer, I just might run Linux on my laptop. A good file manager is pretty important to have.
Re:What matters is the kernel by MSRedfox · 2012-08-01 06:48 · Score: 3

Okay, I concede the kernel isn't all that matters. The UI matters too; I just got tired of seeing non-stop posts complaining about the Metro interface while talks about the kernel changes seem to get glossed over.

Wait, what? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2012-08-01 06:12 · Score: 3, Funny

They've released Windows 8 Service Pack 2 already?

Re:Windows 8 seems like a solid product by konaya · 2012-08-01 06:16 · Score: 5, Informative

It's not Windows hatred per se, although that certainly is a healthy attitude. It's just that everytime a Microsoft-related article pops up, a brand new user starts blindly praising whatever Microsoft's been doing this time around. It's getting old, Microsoft.

Re:Windows 8 seems like a solid product by smittyoneeach · 2012-08-01 06:19 · Score: 5, Funny

And then Freddie Mercury came on and I was like. . .scaramouche?

--
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear

Re:Windows 8 seems like a solid product by nukenerd · 2012-08-01 06:20 · Score: 4, Interesting

It is downvoted because his post is almost certainly a plant by the /. management to wind us up and get us going. First post for a longish piece of writing, with good grammar and spelling, by someone with only three posts ever to his account? I don't believe it.

You would prefer Apple? by crazyjj · 2012-08-01 06:22 · Score: 2

but Microsoft just might be dying

Much as I might have loved that headline 10 years ago, now the thought of Apple becoming a dominant force in the PC market scares the shit out of me. Goodbye MS monopoly, hello Apple walled garden. At least MS has the common courtesy to at least try to hide their evil.

--
What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?

They should follow the Chrome and Firefox model by Yvan256 · 2012-08-01 06:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

Announcing Windows 15!

Or you can wait two weeks and upgrade directly to Windows 19!

Re:Windows 8 seems like a solid product by BenLeeImp · 2012-08-01 06:27 · Score: 4, Interesting

You use a subscriber account to read the articles early, but use a different account to post shill. Just keep mashing F5 on the main page with your text ready in notepad. That way you avoid the karma hit and recognition as a shill poster. Just make a new one when it outlives its usefulness.

I'm not sure how it can be fixed off the top of my head. Maybe prevent new accounts from getting top post until they've made X other posts?

Re:Windows 8 seems like a solid product by MightyMartian · 2012-08-01 06:27 · Score: 2

That's an interesting observation. That makes more sense than paid MS astroturfers.

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The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.

Re:Windows 8 seems like a solid product by gx5000 · 2012-08-01 06:32 · Score: 2

Worked there, liked XP, hate 8, disgruntled about 7, don't even ask about Vista. So how long until M$ tells us it's the most sold and successful OS they've made again ? Took them two years last time to admit Vista was a total bust....sigh. I'm going to go now and play Doom on my Win95c PC....laters !

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End of Line.

Re:Windows 8 seems like a solid product by nschubach · 2012-08-01 06:38 · Score: 3, Insightful

Severely limiting new/anonymous accounts in any way would benefit the majority of threads. I still don't understand how new/anonymous accounts can start threads.

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Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.

And this is good news why? by xQuarkDS9x · 2012-08-01 06:38 · Score: 2

From all that I have seen on Windows 8 previews and even trying it myself on a different computer it just makes me think of "Ahh... Fisher Price Windows". IMHO it's windows dumbed down for the masses. The kind of people who are like Joe sixpack or Jane bimbo where both of them barely have enough brains to even turn on the computer. Nevermind actually configuring and tweaking windows to run better and with more security or even having a dual boot system with a linux distro installed in case a windows installation went south for some reason. And speaking of which they are even limiting you from doing that unless you want to run Ubuntu or Redhat.

I strongly feel that once Windows XP support runs out come April 2014 people will be forced to finaly upgrade because god knows how often do you still see Windows XP nowadays in businesses, hospitals, offices, everywhere practically, and they will probably upgrade to Windows 7 and we will see Windows 7 have a *LONG* support lifecycle like Windows XP has had for the last eleven years. I do not think people will want the fisher price interface in business, local, provincial, or even federal here in Canada especially if you can not officially disable the metro interface and go back to a traditional desktop with a start button.

But, scary thought here, I could be wrong and government workers worldwide may just love the fisher price windows and moving blocks around it might make them feel smart. ;-)

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You must master your joystick like a fisherman masters bait! - Gimpy

Vista on Steroids by rabenja · 2012-08-01 06:40 · Score: 2

I think that it will be some degree worse or better than Vista for Microsoft and users. As a CIO, and from what I have read so far concerning Metro, it will be a *very* long time (until forced to, such as when it is no longer possible to get OEM W7 installed) until we will be upgrading to Metro. To me it sort of resembles Mozilla thumbing it's nose at corporate users. The most curious part about upgrading to a new version of Windows for us is that pretty much the only problems that we face in the process are with older Microsoft products that fail on the new OS.

Do they have customers already? by X.25 · 2012-08-01 06:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

Before Windows 7 came out, almost everyone I knew (that ran Windows) was *genuinely* excited about it and was planning to upgrade to it. And they did.

I don't know a single person that even considers Windows 8 (either as a desktop OS, or a phone OS). Many people don't even realize it's going to be a desktop OS, they assume it is a smartphone/tablet only OS.

I can only wish Microsoft good luck, because I don't think they understand what they're doing.

Re:Do they have customers already? by UnknowingFool · 2012-08-01 08:19 · Score: 2

They were excited because Vista was bungled and XP was really old. I think MS knows that people will hate Win 8. For MS, it is not about improving the desktop for endusers. It is about forcing their way into the mobile space. Had they developed a separate OS for mobile like iOS or Android, they would have fewer developers (see WP7). With Win 8, developers have to develop for Metro whether they want to or not.

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Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.

Re:MS is out of touch unless it's with chairs by Mashiki · 2012-08-01 06:58 · Score: 3, Funny

Well, they could have named it "Fabulous." But maybe that would have been too much? I'll just roll along with the puns here.

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Om, nomnomnom...

Microsoft has a long future ahead of them by bbbaldie · 2012-08-01 06:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

Their future will resemble that of IBM, Novell, HP, Sears, and many other companies that were once #1 in their specialty. Still making money, still active in the market, occasionally coming up with something truly revolutionary.

But one thing's for damned certain: their days of dominance are over. OVER! YES!!!!!!!!!

Re:Windows 8 seems like a solid product by Jeng · 2012-08-01 07:25 · Score: 2

It is one of a few theories that have been suggested.

As it is, this is the first shill I have noticed in months, for awhile there it was real bad, it was rare that a story did not have a shill post as first post.

so that's what the editors do all day.

The number of snarky comments I could make regarding that.........

Here are a few.

No, I doubt they even do that much.

Yes, it takes them all day to come up with a single shill post.

It's not like they are doing anything else.

I wonder when they will video the process and then interview themselves about it so they can present it as another video based story no one wants to watch.

CowboyNeal

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Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.

Every OTHER edition of Windows sucked by scharkalvin · 2012-08-01 08:12 · Score: 2

Windows 3.1 Great product
Windows 95 BUGGY as HELL
Windows 98 Great (at least by the time SE came out)
Windows NT concept product who used it?
Windows 2000 Enterprise Giant!
Windows ME (ho hum)
Windows XP Longest lived version yet
Windows Vista Nuff said!
Windows 7 Greatest yet.
Windows 8 WTF?

Re:MS is out of touch unless it's with chairs by avandesande · 2012-08-01 09:04 · Score: 2

The meme at the time mostly surrounded the term 'metrosexual' and if MS didn't understand that 'Metro' would be associated this make my OP even more poignant.

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love is just extroverted narcissism

Metro is a total pos by Endophage · 2012-08-01 10:15 · Score: 3, Informative

For those who don't have to write software Metro may seem nice. However, to those that do write software, if they haven't found out already they shortly will, Metro's sandboxing is just a total fuck up. Metro apps can't communicate with non-Metro apps. It's even difficult for them to communicate with other metro apps. Hell, it's even difficult for them to just access files on the hard disk. Want a nice Metro app to browser your downloads? No Sorry, you can't have that, your Downloads folder is off limits to Metro. I've seen some developers that actually had to build a web server into their desktop service so that a Metro UI could communicate with it over a REST api rather than using traditional inter process communication.

To the point one or two people have made about Windows 7 menu search and Metro. Yes you can bring up Metro and start typing to find the application you want. However, it's much less distracting and easier on the eye to have a small menu, with colours that match the rest of your system, pop up over a small area of the screen, rather than Metro where the whole screen flashes and changes colour before you eyes and start to type your search causes the entire interface to change, then selecting your application drops you back out of Metro, more sudden screen changes.

Re:Most Enterprise use is moving to 7 now with XP by jbolden · 2012-08-01 10:18 · Score: 2

I don't think most companies will go the Windows 8 route. Windows 9, will be difficult for corporate America. They might have to do real honest to god training.

Re:Windows 8 seems like a solid product by roc97007 · 2012-08-01 13:45 · Score: 2

Ok, so, firstly, the guy up there that said "It's not Windows hatred per se, although that certainly is a healthy attitude." is my favorite person for this week.

But that said, am a little puzzled by your statement "Worked there, liked XP, hate 8, disgruntled about 7, don't even ask about Vista". I mean, "hate 8" I understand, "don't even ask about Vista" I wholeheartedly agree with, but what was disgruntling about 7? I had to upgrade to 7 from XP on one machine to add more memory, and was pleasantly surprised. (I'm still running XP on my other machines, of course, lacking any particular reason to spend the bucks to upgrade.) 7 didn't suck. There isn't a compelling reason to upgrade (except the memory thing) but it wasn't a horrible experience.

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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.

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