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Replacing Windows 8's Missing Start Menu

jfruh writes "The Start Button, which has offered Windows users quick access to important programs, folders, and configuration options since 1995 and has looked more or less the same for all that time, has been re-engineered beyond recognition for Windows 8, replaced by a Start Screen of colorful Metro tiles that greets the user upon startup. One big problem: once you enter Desktop mode to access non-Metro apps, you lose easy access to all the stuff you expect from the Start Button. This has given rise to something of a cottage industry for Start Button replacements, with multiple replacement utilities available even before Windows 8 officially arrives."

285 of 396 comments (clear)

  1. how about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    replacing the missing Windows 8 with Windows 7 instead and just like, carry on with life?

    1. Re:how about by scottbomb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. Windows 7 is still very new and works wonderfully. I was happy with Windows 95 until 2001 when I finally got XP. Windows XP worked well until I replaced it with Windows 7 in 2010. There is nothing Windows 8 offers that make me want it. I'll pass.

    2. Re:how about by no1nose · · Score: 1

      I agree! Windows 7 built on what XP offered me and perfected it. I waiting until this year to go XP -> 7. I'm sure the Start Orb/Menu will be back in Windows 9 anyway. Touch screens are wonderful for tablets, but horrible for desktops - my monitors are 2+ feet away, my shoulders will get tired reaching for those silly tiles. Also, using a touch interface on a non-touch device is maddening, anyone who has used a recent BlackBerry OS on a non-touch BlackBerry can attest to that :-)

      Also, my touch screen iPhone is always dirty, trying to read the text in Order & Chaos Online through the smudges can be really hard...does anyone even want that on their desktop monitor?? I get annoyed when the guy who works for me comes into my office to show me something and puts his nasty, dirty paws on my screen... I don't need an OS to encourage this behavior.

    3. Re:how about by ls671 · · Score: 2

      Nope, what it is in realty is give a chance for startups to develop the missing functionality. Introduce missing functionality if needed. Watch them, buy them if interesting. It is much cheaper than to develop in-house and this has been going on for decades. Remember trumpet winsock? It could have been developed in-house at a greater cost. Yeah, I know Microsoft dreamt of their own internet back then but still, the root principle applies; do your R&D at other expenses as far as possible. I have to admit it is rather clever.

      Same goes for defrag and a bunch of other utilities.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    4. Re:how about by 2fuf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Windows editions are like vintage wine or Star Trek movies: they are alternating good or crap.

      Win 98 with all updates was great, Win ME sucked big time, Win XP is legendary, Win Vista is a mess, Win 7 is superb.

      Sooo, I'll be sticking with 7 until Windows 9 :-)

    5. Re:how about by r1348 · · Score: 2

      Except they really didn't have to spend a dime on R&D for something that they developed in freakin' 1995.

    6. Re:how about by Tim+Ward · · Score: 4, Funny

      are alternating good or crap

      And Pink Floyd albums.

    7. Re:how about by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You know? The funniest argument I ever heard against Linux back in the day was that you had all these wildly different desktops (GNOME, KDE, WM, XFCE, Fluxbox, etc...) and that Windows was supposedly superior because Joe Sixpack had a consistent desktop experience - Windows was Windows no matter where you went, etc.

      I wonder where those people are now, who were making that argument back in 1998... ?

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    8. Re:how about by binarylarry · · Score: 1

      Windows 2000 and XP were both okay.

      I'm sticking with not using Windows any more.

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    9. Re:how about by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Who knows, by removing said functionality, you may have a chance to buy up a startup that just re-invented the start menu in the most ultimate way and profit. Do you get the root principle now ?

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    10. Re:how about by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Linux is great because we apply the root principle without profit concerns. Well, most of the time anyway.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    11. Re:how about by 2fuf · · Score: 1

      > Windows 2000 and XP were both okay.

      But Galaxy Quest repairs the pattern

    12. Re:how about by Tarlus · · Score: 4, Informative

      On top of that, Windows 7 will be supported until 2019, or later if Microsoft chooses to extend its life like they did with XP. That is plenty of time for us to sit aside while Windows 8 is refined for greater usability, or flops and is redeemed by an apologetic Windows 9.

      --
      /* No Comment */
    13. Re:how about by 2fuf · · Score: 1

      It sucked as an OS :-P

    14. Re:how about by Smartcowboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You don't recall correctly

      Windows 3.1 was not so bad but buggy
      Windows 95 was semi-good. got better with osr2
      Windows 98 was a big step backward. It got better only with SE
      Windows ME was uter crap. Actually I skipped this version because I used Win2k at the time.

      Windows 2000 was great. Probably the best Windows OS of all time.
      Windows XP sucked at first. It was basicaly a slower version of Windows 200 with a Teletubbies interface. It only got better with the various service packs.
      Windows Vista was as shitty as ME.
      Windows 7 is actualy Vista, but working.

      All in all, in the last 20 years, Microsoft released a total of only two good os: Win2k and Win7. A far cry from alternating between good and crap.

    15. Re:how about by babblefrog · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What?! The Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, Animals, and The Wall were all great albums.

    16. Re:how about by Smartcowboy · · Score: 2

      Correction:

      After Windows 2000, I switched to a MSDNAA version of Windows 2003 server for my personal computer and find it as good as Win2k and far better than XP. So I should say that MS released a total of two good consumer os.

      Now I'm a OS X user and not looking back. If someday I switch to something else, it will be Linux or FreeBSD.

    17. Re:how about by HAKdragon · · Score: 2

      Vista wasn't really that bad post-SP1.

      --
      "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs. We have a protractor."
    18. Re:how about by Guido+von+Guido+II · · Score: 1

      What?! The Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, Animals, and The Wall were all great albums.

      Eh, they haven't been the same since Syd Barrett.

    19. Re:how about by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Funny

      And thank god for that. There were no more lyrics like "I've got a bike, such a pretty little bike, it's nice."

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    20. Re:how about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't understand why so many people consider Windows 2000 "the best OS of all time." Windows 2000 was so wildly insecure that it was responsible for the several of the worst virus/worm outbreaks of all time.

    21. Re:how about by arkhan_jg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      To be fair, Windows 8 under the bonnet is pretty damn good. Boot times, responsiveness, file copying, the task manager are significantly better on windows 8 than 7.

      It's just such a crying shame they saddled it with that godawful metro interface riddled throughout. I've been running it now on at least one pc since the original developer preview, but I've now got the RTM only on my gaming rig - metro is just so embedded (I see you haven't got a default app for that filetype - let's go look for a metro one on the windows app store! Ugh.) I still find it stupidly annoying, even after months and months. I *can* use it now, but I really don't want to.

      Even if you wedge in a start menu replacement, there's still fragments of metro left over, and it's just irritating, and more so the longer you use it. Such a shame; the rest of windows 8 is a real performance improvement over 7, and they finally fixed bulk file copying to actually *work*. There's no way I could roll it out to the end-users on the work network though. I'd get lynched.

      --
      Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
    22. Re:how about by Dexy · · Score: 1

      Win 98 with all updates was great

      No, it wasn't.

    23. Re:how about by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You could tweak Vista into working fairly well. But Win7 worked out-of-the-box as well as a carefully tweaked Vista installation.

    24. Re:how about by synapse7 · · Score: 3, Funny

      To be fair, Windows 8 under the bonnet is pretty damn good. Boot times, responsiveness, file copying, the task manager are significantly better on windows 8 than 7.

      This is like saying, she has a nice personality.

    25. Re:how about by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      How many people have touch screen(s) on their desktop anyway? Nobody I know has one. Even if I had one I wouldn't use it for that.

      Programmers of all people should know what a pain in the ass it is to interupt a flow of operations just to click on a button with a mouse, never mind stopping all so you can reach across your desk to push on the monitor. If anyone has ever bothered to watch people do data entry or customer service, they'll know that the less the people have to move their hands from one input device to the other, the better, and the more efficiently they can work. Often these people don't even look at the keyboard after a while. But when you force them to move all over hell's half acre to do something that shouldn't require it, you really screw up how they work.

      I will always prefer using the keyboard if there is an easy way to maintain the work flow with it. The next next step is the mouse which definitely has its uses, and which I couldn't live without. Reaching across the desk to touch a screen though is really intrusive and really, probably only necessary for those with Down's syndrome who need the big boxy thingies on the screen. Hey, now we know where Microsoft Windows 8 Product Managers and GUI designers come from!

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    26. Re:how about by Whatanut · · Score: 1

      Too be honest, NT 4.0 had it's fair share of quirks. I had one of those three month evaluation copies. I never once hit the timeout. I bounced back and forth between that and Windows 95. Whichever one was pissing me off least at the time...

      --

      yvan eht nioj
    27. Re:how about by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why so many people consider Windows 2000 "the best OS of all time." Windows 2000 was so wildly insecure that it was responsible for the several of the worst virus/worm outbreaks of all time.

      Only due to how people used it, the Win32 API (present in all versions of Windows), and how people used it - e.g. using the Admin account by default. Win2k was a pretty good OS for Windows if you used it correctly. It was suppose to have a "Consumer Edition" too - but they released Windows ME instead (which was pretty good if and only if you had compliant hardware and software; if not, you were, along with the majority of Windows users, up shit creek).

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    28. Re:how about by Tarlus · · Score: 1

      Not to my recollection.

      --
      /* No Comment */
    29. Re:how about by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      What about the lyrics of 'Pigs'? 'OINK, Oink, oink...' Truly inspiring, that.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    30. Re:how about by candude43 · · Score: 1

      When Win2000 was came out, broadband was just being adopted by home users. Computers were generally plugged straight into the cable modem, or at best a simple hub. So no firewalls, no NAT gateways to protect us.

    31. Re:how about by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Um, those are pig sounds mixed into a song on Animals. They're no more lyrics than the jet engine sounds in the Beatles' Back In The USSR.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    32. Re:how about by Osty · · Score: 1

      Windows ME was uter crap. Actually I skipped this version because I used Win2k at the time.

      ME only existed because 2k wasn't ready for the home market and they need a stop-gap. XP came a year later.

      Windows ME was uter crap. Actually I skipped this version because I used Win2k at the time.

      Sure, if you didn't mind not having drivers, having poor game performance (everything was still targeting win9x at the time), etc. Still, it was a solid OS.

      Windows XP sucked at first. It was basicaly a slower version of Windows 200 with a Teletubbies interface

      Except that XP benefited from 2k's run in order to have drivers available day 1, and was much better in terms of consumer support. There's a reason 2k Pro was not targeted to home users and XP was. That extra year and a half or so made all the difference.

      Windows Vista was as shitty as ME.

      Windows 7 is actualy Vista, but working.

      Actually, a much more apt comparison would be Vista was 2k to 7's XP. Vista introduced a new driver model and didn't give OEMs enough time to get new drivers out (it needed to be done, but it was done poorly). Where Vista failed wasn't on the technical side of things, but on marketing. It had a significantly increased minimum hardware requirement, and for good reason. But it was just a little bit ahead of the curve and OEMs wanted to sell cheaper hardware so marketing came up with the whole "Vista Basic" thing (and they got sued for it). If you had the hardware for it, and you could tough it out for the first 3-4 months while drivers caught up, Vista was awesome. The search box on the Start menu on its own was worth the price of admission, and is what ultimately killed the Start menu entirely (user feedback indicated that nobody used the start menu for anything but searching, so no need for the menu itself anymore).

    33. Re:how about by fuzzywig · · Score: 1
      Yup, not quite as good as Win7 out of the box, but pretty damn similar in the end.

      I can imagine Win 8 will turn out quite usable after a service pack.

    34. Re:how about by Mitchell314 · · Score: 1

      Important rule to learn about developing software: Never assume it will be used correctly. :P

      --
      I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
    35. Re:how about by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      What?! The Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, Animals, and The Wall were all great albums.

      No, I believe they were all by Pink Floyd, so that is logically impossible.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    36. Re:how about by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      Win7 has extended support till 2020, by which time we'll be on Windows 10 or 11.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    37. Re:how about by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      As a side note, I have had applications crash twice under Windows 8. First time was notepad after typing a magnificient paragraph, and the second was Word 2010 after my wife had typed a paper for school (yes, the whole thing was lost). I haven't had Word crash in at least five years and never notepad. I have Classic Shell installed, but I don't know how that could have affected those applications.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    38. Re:how about by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      Important rule to learn about developing software: Never assume it will be used correctly. :P

      Very very true. Someone will always find a way to break it.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    39. Re:how about by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Yup, not quite as good as Win7 out of the box, but pretty damn similar in the end.
      I can imagine Win 8 will turn out quite usable after a service pack.

      And yet people still buy Windows computers pre-SP =/

    40. Re:how about by cmdr_klarg · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why so many people consider Windows 2000 "the best OS of all time." Windows 2000 was so wildly insecure that it was responsible for the several of the worst virus/worm outbreaks of all time.

      I used Win2K for many years without a single virus or anything. You need to use your brains to stay secure on the interwebs, and not just rely on buggy software to keep you safe.

      --
      THE SOFTWARE, IT NO WORKY!!!
    41. Re:how about by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      Mod UP.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    42. Re:how about by toddestan · · Score: 2

      I consider Windows 2000 to be the best release of Windows in the sense that at the time it was released, it was easily Microsoft's biggest step forward. Windows 2000 was a big improvement over NT4, but more importantly it was the first of the NT line that was able and ready to replace the 9x line for most people. That's what was huge about it.

    43. Re:how about by toddestan · · Score: 1

      What about IE4 for Windows 95, which gave Windows 95 the quicklaunch, active desktop, IE integration in Explorer, start menu tweaks, and a bunch of other stuff that was later part of Windows 98?

    44. Re:how about by rockout · · Score: 1

      True... they were way better for awhile.

      --
      I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
    45. Re:how about by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but Win2k was my favorite version of Windows, ever. It was the first and only version of Windows where you could literally do hot driver replacement of things like AGP miniport drivers or the entire video subsystem without having to reboot. Now, it seems like every new version of Windows tries to make you reboot if the installer so much as adds an item to Explorer's right-click context menu.

    46. Re:how about by vandamme · · Score: 1

      ...installing LinuxMint and renaming the Menu to Start? Just for old time's sake.

  2. Why use Win 8 anyway by rossdee · · Score: 2

    You can still buy computers with Win 7

    1. Re:Why use Win 8 anyway by whoosy · · Score: 1

      Or you could just downgrade.

    2. Re:Why use Win 8 anyway by UnknowingFool · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For now. When Win 8 is available, will OEMs force it as the only choice or make consumers pay more for Win 7. Enterprises usually have separate licensing with MS and probably will not upgrade unless there is a need.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    3. Re:Why use Win 8 anyway by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Sure you can do that. Also you will get left behind.

      Figure out their gui now. Or when you do switch out it will suck... Many have a shock when they go from xp to win7. It is different. But not widely different like win8 is. So you have a 1-2 day 'where did they put it' curve. Win8... I am going to have fun walking family thru that...

      Like being left behind from a train wreck.

    4. Re:Why use Win 8 anyway by somersault · · Score: 1

      Left behind by what, exactly? I'm sure it's pretty simple to figure out, but that doesn't mean you need to put up with it when there are better alternatives available. I was wary of Vista when it came out, and likewise wary of 7. I switched to 7 at the end of last year when it had shown to be acceptable.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    5. Re:Why use Win 8 anyway by tepples · · Score: 2

      not that there wasn't a public beta or anything

      Not everybody is in a position to download a multigigabyte public beta at home. A lot of the United States, for example, is still limited to satellite or cellular Internet with a single digit GB/mo cap because real estate within range of cable is too expensive.

    6. Re:Why use Win 8 anyway by somersault · · Score: 2

      Well, I'm certainly in a position to download MS betas if I want to, but I usually don't really feel any interest in doing so. And I know there will always be teething issues for the first few months of any MS OS, so why should I waste my time putting up with them?

      --
      which is totally what she said
    7. Re:Why use Win 8 anyway by jbonomi · · Score: 1

      I think the majority of new mobile PCs are going to be built with touch screen capabilities and the tablet form-factor in mind. On these devices, Windows 7 would be a mistake.

    8. Re:Why use Win 8 anyway by Tarlus · · Score: 1

      so why should I waste my time putting up with them?

      So that you don't get left behind. =)

      --
      /* No Comment */
    9. Re:Why use Win 8 anyway by somersault · · Score: 2

      I used Windows 98 until around 2002 and it worked fine for me. I supported Windows NT, 2000, and XP at work with no problems during that time. I don't feel the need to try and prove something by always having the latest of everything.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    10. Re:Why use Win 8 anyway by Patch86 · · Score: 1

      You think the majority of mobile computers will be in tablet form factor, as opposed to laptop form factor? On what time scale?

      In 2011, 233 million laptops were estimated to have been sold, versus 70 million tablets. So 3.25x more. (Numbers according to Gartner, so YMMV).

      I'd be very surprised if tablets in circulation overtake laptops anything like soon.

    11. Re:Why use Win 8 anyway by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I think the majority of new mobile PCs are going to be built with touch screen capabilities and the tablet form-factor in mind. On these devices, Windows 7 would be a mistake.

      Why do people like touchscreens so much? Apart from playing "touch the screen to choose A, B or C" type games they're a fucking pain in the arse. They're inaccurate, the screen soon ends up looking like a pornstar's crotch wipe, you can't type on them without an external keyboard (at which point they're just like a shitty little laptop anyway) and above all anyone using one looks like a twat who's escaped from a Star Trek convention and forgot to put the uniform on.

      Now, everybody, off my lawn, I've not had my morning whisky and I'm feeling cranky.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    12. Re:Why use Win 8 anyway by jbonomi · · Score: 1

      I only meant newly created models. I could be wrong, of course, but I think having a touch enabled screen will become a selling point on mobile PCs now that the dominant OS expects your device to have one.

  3. As a tech guy get used to it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You might hate it, but you're gonna look really stupid if you don't know how to use Windows 8.

    1. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by flirno · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No more than stupid than when people skipped Vista. In other words, no.

      You might hate it, but you're gonna look really stupid if you don't know how to use Windows 8.

    2. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You might hate it, but you're gonna look really stupid if you don't know how to use Windows 8.

      I'm a tech guy, and I avoid Windows and Windows users like the plague.

      You want me to help you? Well, use some kind of Unix.

      Never had any problems with that policy.

    3. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 3, Funny

      Some of us have clients who use Vista so we don't really have a choice :(

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    4. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by james_van · · Score: 2

      doubtful, considering that most businesses wont move to 8 for at least a couple years, and theres a very good chance theyll skip if altogether and thats the only place where i would NEED to use windows 8. in the consumer world, within a few minutes of sitting down at a win8 computer, ill be able to figure out where everything i really need is at (and most likely how to switch to the non-metro mode, but considering that i avoid using other peoples computers where i can it probably wont ever be an issue. and really, who's gonna point and laugh at me cause i dont know how to use win8? 12 year old MS fanbois?

    5. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by kokako · · Score: 2

      Unix is expensive. I would be willing to concede that you may use a distro of Linux but other than at work, I would bet you haven't touched Unix.

      Unix is expensive? Define expensive. You can get OS X on Mac Mini, $599 at the Apple Store.

    6. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by ledow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, as a tech guy, I rarely have to use the desktop installs I roll out except for internal testing. That's the user's job.

      And although we can all USE the new interfaces, they are diabolical to some of us to use every day for every program you run. Most users barely run a program or two each session. I have twenty open now and I'm winding down for the end of the day (I work in schools).

      I've lost count of how many times I've had to say to someone "I don't know, I never use that program, I'll find out". I might install it, support it, maintain it, debug it, deploy it, patch it and get it running on machines it's never supposed to. But I probably don't USE that program in my daily life very much at all (e.g. the finance programs, school reporting programs, etc.). That's for the users, for whom I can answer any problem if absolutely necessary (even if it means struggling against UI's and even personal user options that I hate) and can source external training for if need be.

      But the fact is that in my daily life, the new UI costs me time compared to the 20+ critical systems set up to use a much more basic and consistent UI than that Metro junk that DOESN'T try to tell me how I should work.

      God, I can't even use some people's desktop layouts or wallpapers they are so horrendous. It doesn't mean I don't support them and/or that I must use them myself on the servers and my own machines.

      I have yet to ever "learn" to use an OS before it's been out for a year or so. Hell, I've deployed and supported Windows 7 machines for years - and still my first personal machine with it on was this September. What *I* use has absolutely no correlation to what my *users* use, which has absolutely no correlation to what I support (which is much vaster in scope and more in-depth than any of them will ever touch - in comparison, a tricky way to start programs is the least of my problems, but one that's easily solvable when it does crop up by deploying Classic Shell, for instance).

      The new Windows 8 install we have planned for next summer? Guess what's loaded on it, and we haven't even seen the full OS out in circulation yet.

    7. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by jbonomi · · Score: 2

      There's nothing to learn. You might have to poke at it for 5 minutes before you're comfortable. I think this is not as big a deal as a lot of people think.

    8. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Odds are better than average that you yourself don't use some form of Unix. Unix is expensive. I would be willing to concede that you may use a distro of Linux but other than at work, I would bet you haven't touched Unix.

      GP here: using HP/UX, Solaris, Digital UNIX, AIX, and a dozen of Linux or BSD distros.

      Shame we're both anonymous, I would win that bet. Stupid bet to make on a site like Slashdot, BTW, it's full of Unix users here (or it used to be).

    9. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by ls671 · · Score: 2

      It is more expensive than Windows for average customers when they have to pay me to patch their immediate problems. For me, Unix is less expensive in the long run because I completely understand and adhere to the philosophy from A to Z.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    10. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Half my family ended up with it. 'Hey I bought this new computer and...'

      You know what they *STILL* are using it. They do not care. Telling them otherwise is not going to make them suddenly drop 50-100 bucks on a new OS (remember all their stuff is windows and they know how to use it). Or even 'hey lets switch you out to...' is not going to fly unless I want to be 24/7 tech support for it. And that is a no also. Or 'hey lets buy a new computer' when the one they have still works...

      For vista do these things. Turn off sysindexer (or at least update it), and replace the built in virus scanner with something decent (replace with the newer version it is way better). Do not use readyboost. Install SP2. Make sure it has at least 2 gig of ram pref 4. Turn on the auto defragmenter for at least once a week. You are set. The computer is now usable. Win 7 basically fixed these things. It is not that much different than vista.

      Best reaction I get out of people on vista 'how did you make this work so well, it stunk before'.

      Win 8 is going to stink. But it is what it is. *WE* are the ones who are going to deal with MS's mistake. So either learn the new thing or get left behind. For win9 they will switch it out again and we get to feel the pain again... Just like the last 10 versions.

    11. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      Odds are better than average that you yourself don't use some form of Unix. Unix is expensive. I would be willing to concede that you may use a distro of Linux but other than at work, I would bet you haven't touched Unix.

      Umm. Ever hear of this thing called "BSD"?

    12. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by na1led · · Score: 1

      That's true. Even if your work doesn't use Windows 8, some idiot user is going to install Windows 8 on their laptop, and they will come to you for support when something doesn't work right. Whether we like it or not, we have to be familiar with any OS we may have to provide support for. At my work, we mostly use Windows 7, but a few bring their Macs to work, and ask me to support their issues, I have no choice but to learn Macs because of this.

      --
      -- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
    13. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by ls671 · · Score: 2

      Businesses have started to skip releases after XP. Some servers are still running win2k.

      You are right then. As a side note, there will be a big market when they finally decide to upgrade. By the way win2k is still supported by Microsoft for corporate customers.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    14. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by Tarlus · · Score: 2

      As far as tech support goes, having an understanding of how to support Windows is far more lucrative and marketable than just *nix.

      --
      /* No Comment */
    15. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      You might hate it, but you're gonna look really stupid if you don't know how to use Windows 8.

      You might hate the truth, but you're really stupid if you're familiar with computing and yet you can't figure out how to work on a new operating system within a few minutes.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    16. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Solaris is/was free.

      My Ultra5 seems to run Unix just fine.

    17. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      BSD is genetic UNIX, it is not however branded UNIX since that name belongs to the Opengroup.

    18. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by abirdman · · Score: 1

      The market is different, supporting *nix vs Windows 8. I'm willing to bet the *nix pro makes more money, even though there are more total Windows 8 support jobs.

      --
      Everything I've ever learned the hard way was based on a statistically invalid sample.
    19. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      Which businesses are still using Win2k? I want to avoid them.

      Seriously, Win2k has been out of support for years and doesn't get any security patches. Unless that server is not connected to a network, it's irresponsible to still be using Win2k.

    20. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Can't you read? Microsoft still issues win2k security patches for corporate users! Some nuclear submarine systems still run on NT4 (win2k is NT5). In the big iron business, this is how it is most of the time. Obviously, Joe six pack doesn't get any win2k updates.

      As a side joke, following that mentality, I still run a patched version of slackware 1.2.3 for critical mission tasks. I am death serious.

      win8 is mostly targeted at everyday consumer and it is a test bed.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    21. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by AntEater · · Score: 1

      Um.... Maybe more marketable but definitely not more lucrative. Look at the average salaries for a Unix admin and compare it with the average salaries for a Windows support tech. Get back to me when you're done with google.

      --
      Alex, I'll take keybindings not used by Emacs for $400....
    22. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by Tarlus · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but you're talking about Unix administration. I'm talking about tech support.

      --
      /* No Comment */
    23. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by cykros · · Score: 1

      What is perhaps worse than that is that some businesses still use OS/2. And some even still use punch card systems. Not every computer on the planet is connected to the Internet, and some exist behind firewalls, which, if breached, would be small potatoes compared to other systems on the same network, and thus are not a high priority to have upgraded. Up until the late 90s, even the White House still was using a good few Commodore 64 systems...

    24. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by miffo.swe · · Score: 1

      You obviously have no clue have you?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_v._BSDi

      --
      HTTP/1.1 400
    25. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by miffo.swe · · Score: 1

      More work yes, more money, no.

      --
      HTTP/1.1 400
    26. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      No more than stupid than when people skipped Vista. In other words, no.

      You might hate it, but you're gonna look really stupid if you don't know how to use Windows 8.

      But a lot of people obviously didn't skip Vista. Your or my opinion of how crap it was doesn't mean that no one used it. Obviously it depends on your situation, but if you are say on a help desk at a consumer ISP, you had better get used to helping people with whatever versions of Windows are still in existence.

      Saying "why don't you just install Linux" is not really an option in those circumstances.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    27. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      It is more expensive than Windows for average customers when they have to pay me to patch their immediate problems. For me, Unix is less expensive in the long run because I completely understand and adhere to the philosophy from A to Z.

      Normal users are not interested in the philosophy of operating systems.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    28. Re:As a tech guy get used to it by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but if you familiarized yourself with Vista you already knew pretty much how to do everything in Windows 7 when it came out.

  4. My Stadegy. by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Stop Bitching and complaining about every change in technology and get use to the the Damn thing.

    I remember all the bitching and moaning about the Start Button when it was created. And now is is some God Sent UI that you can't live without.

    If you get get Windows 8. you will figure it out shortly and you are back to normal.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:My Stadegy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Also, from now on we will be driving on the other side of the road on the third Tuesday of the month, except when the moon is full. Seriously. Why do we embrace change for changes sake? If it works, stop picking at it.

    2. Re:My Stadegy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For some reason, techies always seem to be the ones bitching the loudest about changes in technology - a field that exists only because of change. The funny thing is, it's just an endless cycle. They'll bitch about change N+1, but when it's time for change N+2, they'll bitch about how N+1 is the greatest thing since sliced bread and taking N+1 away is horrible. Then when N+3 comes, suddenly N+2 is fantastic, and N+3 is sheer idiocy. And so it goes.

      Come back in 20 years, and it'll be the same.

    3. Re:My Stadegy. by EzInKy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How does hiding the "Start" button qualify as advancing technology? Isn't the motivation behind this related more to hiding what is behind the curtain than it is to exposing what is behind the curtain?

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    4. Re:My Stadegy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Wrong. Windows 7 was the product of 20 years of refinements in user interface design. Throwing it all out and starting over is ridiculous. It's an obvious ploy to force people to upgrade what is a perfectly functional piece of software already. Frankly, MS must do this if it wants to stay in business. The revenue stream is only there if they can force people to keep shelling out money.
      This time, it might not work. I'll stick with my windows 7 for now, and probably some flavor of Linux down the road (unless required to use Windows 8 for work).

    5. Re:My Stadegy. by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I've never liked the start menu. I never liked the whole concept of a bunch of shortcuts all in a single location that almost all point to a bunch of programs in a single location. Wouldn't it be simpler and more direct to just list the programs and doing the organization at the program level? Making a start screen do the exact same thing does nothing to fix that flaw, and really brings it back to the windows 3 interface. The "cool" thing about Windows 95 was that they managed to stick progman into a single fly-out button.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    6. Re:My Stadegy. by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      I remember all the bitching and moaning about the Start Button when it was created. And now is is some God Sent UI that you can't live without.

      Well, taking away one's ability to log out from the "classic" interface may have more to do with it than any special love for the UI.

      I don't work on Windows normally, but I've had to test some remote stuff for our students. I couldn't believe how annoying it now is to just LOG OFF from the classic interface - bring up the little pop-up slider on the right side (assuming it will actually come up, and assuming you already know it's there because there's no visual cue to let you know "hey there's this hidden panel over here"); go back to the Windows App Store interface; click on your name (gosh, that makes sense), then click "log out".

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    7. Re:My Stadegy. by phlinn · · Score: 1

      Nah... it's just that we only like every other change. N is good, N+1 is just horrible, N+2 is good and fixes all the horrible things in N+1. This may only hold for windows versions... :p

      --
      "Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
    8. Re:My Stadegy. by NatasRevol · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because the Start button wasn't that great in the first place. It was essentially a select set of shortcuts.

      A much better solution exists in Mac OS X, and should be emulated.
      Pin to the Dock the following folders: Home directory, Applications.
      Set them as list, sort by name.

      Access to ALL files/folders/applications with one click.

      No navigating into the hard drive if the installer didn't put a shortcut in the "All Programs" folder.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    9. Re:My Stadegy. by rroman · · Score: 2

      I don't agree. Microsoft changes the way the UI appears too often even if there is no reason to change it. Another example of this would be MS office. The UI changes with every version even though the old style UI, that is used in LibreOffice is good. If users were happy with the old interface, I don't think there is need to force the users to stop using it.

    10. Re:My Stadegy. by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      But if we do that, we might like it and then we might have to admit that actually Microsoft have come up with a good idea!

    11. Re:My Stadegy. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I remember all the bitching and moaning about the Start Button when it was created. And now is is some God Sent UI that you can't live without.

      it's true that there's a certain segment of people who resist change for resistance's sake. These are the people who kept using windows explorer as program explorer after we got a start menu. it's also true that the start menu was a big step forward in ease of use. Unfortunately, it's not clear that the !Metro interface is another one.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    12. Re:My Stadegy. by Missing.Matter · · Score: 2, Informative

      The start button is not hidden; it's just not visible. Microsoft tells you exactly where to find it the first time you log in. The charms bar is an integral component to the Windows 8 UI, and it's very easy to access. Not only that, there are at least 5 distinct keyboard and mouse shortcuts for accessing the start menu (windows key, ctrl+escape, win+C enter, click lower left corner, charms menu).

    13. Re:My Stadegy. by The+Snowman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's a natural evolution really. Who uses bookmarks on their browsers anymore? I have thousands of them, and a nifty hierarchy to classify them. But it's not worth spending a long time finding what I had stored there several years back.

      I don't know about other browsers, but I have tons of bookmarks in Firefox. When I start typing in the address bar, it searches through them by URL and by name. Sort of like the start menus in Windows 7 and KDE. So while I may not navigate the hierarchy of programs or bookmarks, it does serve a useful purpose as what is essentially a database.

      --
      24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
    14. Re:My Stadegy. by ls671 · · Score: 1

      It keeps the economy rolling in a peak oil era ;-)

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    15. Re:My Stadegy. by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Actually, the rule is people will fall under one of two major categories:
      loop_start:
      When change N+1 comes, they will:
      A) complain about how change N+1 breaks from change N, but will upgrade/use change N+1 because they are "forced to" by IT/parents/peers/contracts/compatibility with "others" and then go to loop_start
      B) refuse to upgrade/use change N+1 because of either mass hysteria because it doesn't work for a very vocal 1% of the target market even though it doesn't affect them or most users can't afford to upgrade to change N+1 so they rationalize the refusal by regurgitating the mass hysteria, and wait for change N+2 that has useless sparklies in it and then upgade/use N+2. Then they will say how great the changes are in N+2, when 90% of those changes were actually present in change N+1 that they refused to upgrade/use all while saying they dislike the new sparklies and how they should have been more sparkly. Go to loop_start

      Windows is typically more of the B variety. Apple products also are more of the B variety because of the cell contracts. Microsoft Office is more the A variety.

    16. Re:My Stadegy. by Missing.Matter · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Throwing it all out and starting over is ridiculous.

      They didn't throw out all of Windows 7, just the start menu. I use Windows 8, and spend about 99% of my time on the desktop. As Windows 8 is almost a superset of Windows 7, Windows 8 can be used in exactly the same way as you used Windows 7..... that's pretty much what this article is all about. If you use Windows 8 like I do, you don't notice the difference until you restart the computer, or open the task manager, or copy a file, or connect a second monitor.... where you see some of the other tangible improvements of Windows 8.

    17. Re:My Stadegy. by Tarlus · · Score: 2

      If people didn't bemoan things like this then we would still be stuck with Vista.

      --
      /* No Comment */
    18. Re:My Stadegy. by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      I remember all the bitching and moaning about the Start Button when it was created.

      I don't, and I remember the release of 95 vividly. Who did you hear bitching and moaning about it?

      Everyone I knew who was forced to use Window 3.1 loved 95. It was a massive improvement. I can't actually state how massive it was, it was that big. There's not been such an upgrade since in the Windows world.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    19. Re:My Stadegy. by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      I couldn't believe how annoying it now is to just LOG OFF from the classic interface

      just hit ctrl+alt+del. The same screen comes up as in Windows 7 with options for lock, switch user, sign out, task manager, and shutdown/restart.

      assuming it will actually come up

      Press win+c if you can't get the gesture over a remote connection.

      and assuming you already know it's there because there's no visual cue to let you know "hey there's this hidden panel over here"

      There's also no visual cue for right click context menus yet we seem to get along fine with them. Windows 8 tells you were to find the charms menu the first time you log in to your user account. What kind of visual cue would you prefer? Some kind of wave emanating from the corner of the screen constantly?

    20. Re:My Stadegy. by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      now they decided that your server will run a UI designed for touchscreen tablets

      Are you aware you can run Server 2012 with a no UI option? Even still, you're neglecting the fact that the start screen is for launching applications and using metro applications. There is still a desktop and the server tools still run on the desktop.

      because fuck you that's why and you don't have an option to get the old interface without third party software.

      Why exactly is this a hassle? It's not exactly difficult to install these options, or costly. Some of them are even open source. Why does Microsoft have to offer their own solution, when there are perfectly good ones already available?

    21. Re:My Stadegy. by linebackn · · Score: 1

      > Stop Bitching and complaining about every change in technology and get use to the the Damn thing.

      It scares me that your comment was modded up so high. If everyone, as you suggest, stops "bitching", and instead starts happily taking everything up the ass, then what incentive is there for anything to change for the better?

      Imagine that someone told the people around caveman Ogg to Stop Bitching about the inability to easily move things around. He was going to invent the wheel, but aparently everyone is happy with things the way they are!

    22. Re:My Stadegy. by maxdread · · Score: 2

      Liar! Previously to get to the start menu, all I had to do was push the windows key. With Windows 8 they made it so much harder, I have to push the windows key!

      Wait a minute...

    23. Re:My Stadegy. by Infernal+Device · · Score: 1

      Stop Bitching and complaining about every change in technology and get use to the the Damn thing.

      I remember all the bitching and moaning about the Start Button when it was created. And now is is some God Sent UI that you can't live without.

      If you get get Windows 8. you will figure it out shortly and you are back to normal.

      Sure, but why should users put up with bad design? And why do we keep foisting it off on them?

      The Windows 8 UI is good for touch devices, but is so completely the wrong metaphor for desktop that it's nigh unusable. The Windows 7 UI was good for desktops, but conversely, would be mostly wrong for touch devices.

      Yet Microsoft insists on making everyone use the same UI for all devices, touch-enabled or not. It's a mistake that I think will teach them a very painful lesson - there is no One True User Interface.

      Even Apple hasn't made that mistake and they've got the closest thing to a cross-platform unified UI that's available.

      --
      "My God...it's full of trolls!"
    24. Re:My Stadegy. by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      look,
      button is in win8. it's just that it's hidden behind an invisible button in a corner BUT when it's activated it takes the whole screen.

      the motivation is fairly simple - to get people to use metro apps acquired from the ms appstore.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    25. Re:My Stadegy. by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      There is a difference between, complaining about something that was poorly done, vs. something that is done differently.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    26. Re:My Stadegy. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      There is having a different opinion, then there is just being pig headed and just scared of change.

      I have Windows 8 RC on my PC. At first I was bothered by the home screen. After a while I began to be ok with it. Is it perfect, No, I do have a few gripes about its design. However by putting myself in a mindset "Well lets get use to it first before I begin to hate it" I found that it is just as cumbersome as the start bar.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    27. Re:My Stadegy. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Yes a major change every 17 years is just too much for us to handle.

      The problem with keeping the old interface there is a point where your application adds features that the old UI scheme will get more clumsy. Or just the way your product is being used has changed. So a new UI can help match with the new features and new usage of the system

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    28. Re:My Stadegy. by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      Easy for you, and easy for me. I don't think typical users are going to find that "easy" though.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    29. Re:My Stadegy. by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      The Start button is a collection of shortcuts of all installed programs

      No, it's not. It's a collection of shortcuts put there by some/most installer programs. If you drag a folder containing an app, like HyperTerm, from another computer, it won't be in the Start menu.

      The OS X solution is to make an alias of the actual Applications (or Documents, or Home, or Desktop) folder, and make a nice display of everything that's in there.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    30. Re:My Stadegy. by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      Windows ME was never intended to exist. It was only created as a stopgap.

      Microsoft had initially intended to move consumers to the NT architecture with Windows 2000, but Win2k fell behind and they cut most of the consumer features to get it out.

      So now Microsoft needed a new consumer OS that would support the latest OEM hardware, and ME was the short term stopgap solution. They just grafted stuff they had been developing for 2000 onto it and hoped for the best.

      The next year, MS released XP and there was much gnashing of teeth and rending of garments about the new UI... wait.. why does that sound familiar?

    31. Re:My Stadegy. by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      Except it's not still there. The function of that space is to take you to the Metro interface, not to bring up the start menu.

    32. Re:My Stadegy. by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      20 years of refined mouse-based UI doesn't work with touch based devices. Microsoft has tried, numerous times to make this work with the existing UI (remember XP Tablet? Remember Origami?) and failed.

      The new UI is to make Windows touch friendly, while still be usable by mouse actions...

    33. Re:My Stadegy. by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      Let's see you use Libre Office menus on a touch based tablet. It's a huge pain.

    34. Re:My Stadegy. by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and those people that revert are the same people that were using the Windows 98 style menu in Vista.

      When 7 dropped support for the classic menu, there was much complaining.. it was deafening... everyone was going to move to Linux, just you wait and see... 3 years later "Windows 7's start menu was perfect!"

    35. Re:My Stadegy. by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      I can get to anything I want in exactly the same amount of time in both 7 and 8. I hit the start button on the keyboard and type the first 2 or 3 letters of the name of the app, and hit enter. Literally, it takes less than 1 second, and my hand doesn't leave the keyboard.

    36. Re:My Stadegy. by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      What is it, exactly that you find "unusable" about Windows 8's UI for desktops?

      You're absolutely right that the old UI was unusable with tablets and phones. Microsoft tried to make that work numerous times, but failed.

      The new UI, IMO, Is usable in every environment.

      It's not that it's unusable on the desktop, people just don't want to change.

    37. Re:My Stadegy. by McDrewbie · · Score: 1

      Why would anyone try to write/create something in a word processor on a touch based tablet in the first place. Sooooo many people think touch screens are some superior input device.

    38. Re:My Stadegy. by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      I still have a Me box running (although the user interface has been hacked just a teeny-tiny bit), (and it dual boots with Archbang), (and it runs Defraggler, Foxit, something or other that's subbing for Explorer and does dual pane directory views, etc.), (and since I couldn't upgrade IE past 6.0 or Firefox past 3.52 or so, the whole thing's air-gapped from the internet, of course) ...
      But still, I like it just fine.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    39. Re:My Stadegy. by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      Must be nice. Since I upgraded, I have to first remember that the meta key with that silly flag symbol that doesn't look particularly meta can substitute for a dedicated windows key. Then its all those steps you have to jump through, as well.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    40. Re:My Stadegy. by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what your point is. You aren't creating a word document in the start menu. You have a keyboard. It works whether you have metro or not. What is your point?

    41. Re:My Stadegy. by jon3k · · Score: 1

      The start button is garbage but at least it was consistent garbage. Now we have new garbage that we have to learn for no reason other than Microsoft news to sell some more software licenses.

    42. Re:My Stadegy. by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      The Start Screen + Charms menu != Start Menu.

      I know there were lots of jokes about going to the Start menu to shutdown the computer when Windows 95 came out, but today it's what people have come to expect. I talked to someone on a forum elsewhere and he was complaining about the multi-step process needed to shut down the machine in Windows 8 verses earlier versions. He didn't know it can be done in three steps using the Charms menu. Is it intuitive at all to add a shutdown command to what is supposed to be a settings sidebar?

      Even at this point, if I want to open the Control Panels (the full list, not the limited Metro-fied collection) I have to open an Explorer window and use a Ribbon command.

      The new Start Screen is made to do three things:
      1. Get people used to a Microsoft tablet interface, hopefully influencing them to buy a Windows tablet instead of an iPad.
      2. Depreciate the non-Metrofied apps and steer people into spending money at Microsoft's app store.
      3. Look different enough that folks would see it as a "new" operating system they needed to upgrade to when what they had was working fine still.

      It doesn't really do anything to improve the experience for the user as far as actually using their computer.

    43. Re:My Stadegy. by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      The Start Screen + Charms menu != Start Menu.

      Start Screen + All Apps + Search + Charms = start menu. That's the problem with the start menu; it has become a swiss army knife of functionality over time with so much functionality in such small an area.

      I talked to someone on a forum elsewhere and he was complaining about the multi-step process needed to shut down the machine in Windows 8 verses earlier versions. He didn't know it can be done in three steps using the Charms menu. Is it intuitive at all to add a shutdown command to what is supposed to be a settings sidebar?

      Obviously it does not need to be intuitive, as the unintuitive location of the shutdown command in the start menu works; you just need to be taught where it is. The settings charm is an integral part of Windows 8. You will stumble across it eventually.... if not you probably don't use the computer enough. Anyway, if you have a problem with the location, ctrl+alt+del will bring up the shut down command as it always has. Or you can pin a shortcut to the start screen or task bar. Or you can just use the hardware button.

      if I want to open the Control Panels (the full list, not the limited Metro-fied collection) I have to open an Explorer window and use a Ribbon command.

      That's one way.... or there's a shortcut in the desktop settings charm. Or the easiest way, the WinX menu (win key + x or right click lower left corner).

      It doesn't really do anything to improve the experience for the user as far as actually using their computer.

      That's your opinion. The start screen allows for large content-drive live tiles, something that would never fit in the small start menu. I appreciate the at-a-glace information the start screen provides in the various tiles. There's also room for more tiles displayed at once. I have space for about 40 tiles on my screen. On the start menu you get about 10 large icons, and then everything else is buried at least 2 clicks away in a list of folders.

    44. Re:My Stadegy. by rastos1 · · Score: 1

      Do you remember how you run along the walls in Doom and you pushed/shot the walls hoping to discover a secret room? That is how I felt when I saw Win8 for first time. Except that in Doom the wall usually had a slightly different texture that made it easier to identify something you can interact with.

    45. Re:My Stadegy. by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Yea, just like that time where everyone acknowledged that Vista was the greatest thing ever and lamented the coming of WIn 7! Everyone remember that?

    46. Re:My Stadegy. by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      Start Screen + All Apps + Search + Charms = start menu. That's the problem with the start menu; it has become a swiss army knife of functionality over time with so much functionality in such small an area.

      It became cluttered, but the good side to having a monolithic control menu is if you're trying to find something you always know where to start (pun not intended) looking.

      I talked to someone on a forum elsewhere and he was complaining about the multi-step process needed to shut down the machine in Windows 8 verses earlier versions. He didn't know it can be done in three steps using the Charms menu. Is it intuitive at all to add a shutdown command to what is supposed to be a settings sidebar?

      Obviously it does not need to be intuitive,

      It does if you want to get away with not including a thick manual.
      Ok, ok. Being intuitive isn't a requirement, but it helps quite a bit. Just ask Apple.

      as the unintuitive location of the shutdown command in the start menu works; you just need to be taught where it is.

      Yes, and it was a stupid place to put it then. The only reason it became acceptable is because the interface hasn't been changed in so long it's pretty much common knowledge now. Do you think Microsoft will go that long without a major upheaval again?

      BTW, I do end-user support. It's surprising how many computers out there don't have a "fake" power button on the front but a real one that actually just cuts it right off without a proper shutdown sequence, or just puts the computer to sleep instead because the OEM changed the button's function.

      if I want to open the Control Panels (the full list, not the limited Metro-fied collection) I have to open an Explorer window and use a Ribbon command.

      That's one way.... or there's a shortcut in the desktop settings charm. Or the easiest way, the WinX menu (win key + x or right click lower left corner).

      Thanks. Although I can't help but feel I could have used this thing another 6-12 months and never realized there even was a Win-X keyboard shortcut. Like I said, needs to be more intuitive if you're not gonna include a manual. Also: most end users don't even know the basic universal keyboard shortcuts (cut, copy, paste, select all, etc), so adding a huge number of keyboard shortcuts in place of clickable menus just doesn't cut it.

      It doesn't really do anything to improve the experience for the user as far as actually using their computer.

      That's your opinion.

      Yes, and it seems to be the majority opinion.

      The start screen allows for large content-drive live tiles, something that would never fit in the small start menu. I appreciate the at-a-glace information the start screen provides in the various tiles.

      So did everyone else. Years ago when they were called widgets or gadgets.

      It doesn't have to fit in the Start menu, because the Start menu is something that only stays up for however long you need it. How are content-driven live tiles any different that the old widgets systems? The widget systems were superior because they were more flexible in size and shape and could be moved anywhere the user wanted because they didn't have to conform to some mosaic metaphor. Hey, you could have a Word document open on your screen and type while occasionally glancing at a widget on the open desktop space beside the window.

      Can you work in an app and view a live tile at the same time -- without any extra mouse movements or keyboard shortcuts?

      There's also room for more tiles displayed at once. I have space for about 40 tiles on my screen. On the start menu you get about 10 large icons, and then everything else is buried at least 2 clicks away in a list of folders.

      1. You should specify

    47. Re:My Stadegy. by Missing.Matter · · Score: 2

      It became cluttered, but the good side to having a monolithic control menu is if you're trying to find something you always know where to start (pun not intended) looking.

      That's the charms menu now, not the start screen. Charms menu gives you search, share, devices, start, settings. Literally anything you want to do to manage your computer can be accessed there, sort of like the start menu, but they made the layout and controls more consistent and accessible no matter where you are in the OS.

      Like I said, needs to be more intuitive if you're not gonna include a manual. Also: most end users don't even know the basic universal keyboard shortcuts (cut, copy, paste, select all, etc), so adding a huge number of keyboard shortcuts in place of clickable menus just doesn't cut it.

      The shortcuts I mention are for power users and are in addition to the standard ways to find things. You obviously are looking for a faster way to work and there is one, but you also found the control panel on your own. A simple google search reveals the short cuts I mentioned, and anyone interested to know is just a search away.

      Yes, and it seems to be the majority opinion.

      I'm interested how you can gauge the majority opinion when Windows 8 hasn't even been released to the general public. Tech blogs like slashdot have certainly taken advantage of easily riled geeks who are set in their ways by publishing inflammatory articles, sure, but this hardly represents the majority opinion. Metro arguably was made with common users in mind, who in my experience so far appreciate the simplicity of the metro interface. But any assertion as to the opinion of the majority remains to be seen.

      So did everyone else. Years ago when they were called widgets or gadgets....How are content-driven live tiles any different that the old widgets systems?

      I've used widgets too, and they never quite lived up to their potential. For example, widgets were often stand alone applications, and did not launch a larger, more detailed app. For instance, my weather widget did not open up to a full fledged app, but simply linked to weather.com for more info. My stocks app and my news app likewise linked to websites. Further, there are classes of live tiles like games that really never had widget equivalents. For instance, if I play a game on Windows 8 and exit, I can see the state of the game on my start screen. I don't recall widgets having the ability to monitor the state of my games.

      As for other advantages of live tiles: they conform to a strict API, which assures security and power management. Live tiles are only for metro apps, which are sandboxed and certified. They also only use CPU when you're viewing them and otherwise use low bandwidth and cpu for pushing notifications if enabled, with a centralized location for managing these notifications. This is in contrast to some widgets, which constantly suck CPU, bandwidth, and can be a security nightmare.

      Can you work in an app and view a live tile at the same time -- without any extra mouse movements or keyboard shortcuts?

      No, but I never used Widgets in that way personally. I always used desktop peek to see widgets on my desktop, which hides my work. Although, I can dock a metro app on the side, which I do often with stocks. Alternatively, notifications can alert you of changes in a metro app while you're working,

      1. You should specify a screen size when making statements like this.

      My laptop screen is 1600x900. However, the start menu has roughly the same capacity no matter the screen size, since it doesn't scale up very well. This article has a comparison of visible items vs. resolution for start menu and start screen.

      2. How many programs do you th

    48. Re:My Stadegy. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      The start button is not hidden; it's just not visible.

      I've tried to understand, but I'm afraid that's just too subtle for me.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    49. Re:My Stadegy. by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      Charms menu gives you search, share, devices, start, settings. Literally anything you want to do to manage your computer can be accessed there, sort of like the start menu, but they made the layout and controls more consistent and accessible no matter where you are in the OS.

      It's more consistent, but with no visual cues you can completely miss functionality.
      Nothing like making your OS features invisible to make people develop a bad opinion of it, eh?

      Yes, and it seems to be the majority opinion.

      I'm interested how you can gauge the majority opinion when Windows 8 hasn't even been released to the general public.

      The Developer's Preview and Release Preview have both been available to the public should they wish to try them, and Microsoft has even encouraged them to in the latter. Yes, stuff has been changed, but the "joys" of using the new Metro desktop have always been part of it.

      Tech blogs like slashdot have certainly taken advantage of easily riled geeks who are set in their ways by publishing inflammatory articles, sure, but this hardly represents the majority opinion. Metro arguably was made with common users in mind, who in my experience so far appreciate the simplicity of the metro interface. But any assertion as to the opinion of the majority remains to be seen.

      That is true, but much as you lambaste my statements as my feeling much of your reply is subjective comments as well. "Common users" don't operate their desktop or even laptop PCs with touch screens, which the Metro interface is clearly made for. A mouse is a precise enough pointing device we don't need tile-sized targets. And even if we are a little poor in eye sight or shaky of hand, the larger sized icons available in recent OSes covers that fine. Are controls really subjectively "more consistent and accessible" when they now literally hide from the user in five different places, compared to before when they were in a single trigger-always-visible branching menu?

      For instance, my weather widget did not open up to a full fledged app, but simply linked to weather.com for more info. My stocks app and my news app likewise linked to websites.

      Is a full featured app really necessary to find out the weather, or stocks? A dedicated news reader app I can understand, but the other two sound like things that should be taken care of soundly with a full-featured website. A solution in search of a problem here.

      As for other advantages of live tiles: they conform to a strict API, which assures security and power management. Live tiles are only for metro apps, which are sandboxed and certified. They also only use CPU when you're viewing them and otherwise use low bandwidth and cpu for pushing notifications if enabled, with a centralized location for managing these notifications. This is in contrast to some widgets, which constantly suck CPU, bandwidth, and can be a security nightmare.

      None of this has to do with the format for tile display or the flexibility of tiles vs. widgets. It reminds me of that OSX article a few weeks back were some guy said the Mac App Store exists because otherwise we would have to give up Sandboxing of OSX apps.

      There's no reason Widgets couldn't continue in the form they are in now but be subject to stricter execution and security standards. Microsoft simply has to make it so, that's what the operating system is there for, to facilitate application usage of hardware resources and keep programs in line behavior-wise. Make current widgets undergo a "re-certification" process to be allowed to run under Windows 8 and change will come.

      1. You should specify a screen size when making statements like this.

      My laptop screen is 1600x900. However, the start menu has roughly the same capacity no matter the screen size, since it doesn't scale up v

    50. Re:My Stadegy. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Why would anyone try to write/create something in a word processor on a touch based tablet in the first place. Sooooo many people think touch screens are some superior input device.

      I agree that tablets are fine as an auxiliary device. But then you need a laptop to do text/numerical inputting as well, and tThere's not much point in having a portable touch based tablet if you also have to carry around a laptop as well. You might as well just have the laptop and forget the tablet.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    51. Re:My Stadegy. by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      Hiding something has the implication that it's not meant to be found. If I hide my jewels in a secret drawer, I don't want anyone to find them. The jewels are hidden and not visible. If I tell someone where the secret drawer is and how to access it, the jewels are still not visible, but they are no longer hidden.

      The analogue is that Microsoft tells you exactly where to find the start menu and how to access it. Windows 8 instructs you to "Move your mouse into any corner" the first time you log in.

    52. Re:My Stadegy. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I remember all the bitching and moaning about the Start Button when it was created.

      I don't, and I remember the release of 95 vividly. Who did you hear bitching and moaning about it?

      Everyone I knew who was forced to use Window 3.1 loved 95. It was a massive improvement. I can't actually state how massive it was, it was that big. There's not been such an upgrade since in the Windows world.

      You're wrong, at the time there were a LOT of people who were confused by Windows 95 and hated it. I'm talking about ordinary users, not tech people. For example, multi-tasking confused the hell out of a lot of people who were used to opening Word Perfect, printing their letter off, closing it down then opening up Lotus to do a spreadsheet, etc. For a long time, there were a lot of users losing documents they'd switched from and forgotten to save, and so on.

      We can laugh now, but I remember an awful lot of confusion around for a year or two.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    53. Re:My Stadegy. by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1
      Thanks for another well thought out reply.

      It's more consistent, but with no visual cues you can completely miss functionality. Nothing like making your OS features invisible to make people develop a bad opinion of it, eh?

      True, but we have been using invisible UI elements for a long time and people have been getting along fine. As long as they are educated about what to use, people will get along. For instance, right click context menus are a point of contention for beginners. They don't know when to right click on something, as there are no visual cues, and the menu that appears is always different.... sometimes it's hard to understand for a new user what exactly will happen when you right click on something. Also, operations like double click to open and click drag have no visual cues. You don't know how many times I've had to explain double clicking vs. single clicking to beginner users. Are these intuitive interface designs? No, clearly not for everyone. Does that make them bad? No, not in my opinion. I learned them once and now I don't need a visual cue cluttering things to tell me where to right click. Same goes for the charms menu. Now that I know it's there, I don't need some sort of visual hint cluttering my display.

      The Developer's Preview and Release Preview have both been available to the public should they wish to try them, and Microsoft has even encouraged them to in the latter. Yes, stuff has been changed, but the "joys" of using the new Metro desktop have always been part of it.

      Right, but I think you'll agree with me that the majority of Microsoft's customers haven't downloaded and installed it, and given their opinion. Still only the opinion of the vocal minority is before us, and we have yet to see what general consumers will say. That is true, but much as you lambaste my statements as my feeling much of your reply is subjective comments as well. "Common users" don't operate their desktop or even laptop PCs with touch screens, which the Metro interface...

      I'm sorry that my tone is coming across as lambasting; I'm not trying to come across as overly harsh and I apologize if I am. The metro interface has many large elements, which true is ideal for touch, but there is a full suite of keyboard, mouse, and touch pad shortcuts as well. In fact, where drivers allow, many of the touch screen gestures map to the touch pad in windows 8. In my experience using Windows 8 on a touch enabled laptop and a desktop, I find the start screen and metro interface easily usable with all 4 input options.

      As for if the mouse is precise enough, yes it is for some people. But the large icons you mention aren't always available. In the start menu, for instance, the icons are very small, and you have to scroll through a list of small icons that all look the same in Windows 7. In windows XP, you need fine motor skills to navigate the flyout menu. Especially if the item you're looking for is multiple layers deep, you run the risk of closing everything or engaging the wrong item if your mouse wonders out of a tiny area.

      Are controls really subjectively "more consistent and accessible" when they now literally hide from the user in five different places, compared to before when they were in a single trigger-always-visible branching menu?

      Again, there is a single access point for all functionality still: the charms menu.

      Is a full featured app really necessary to find out the weather, or stocks? A dedicated news reader app I can understand, but the other two sound like things that should be taken care of soundly with a full-featured website. A solution in search of a problem here.

      Those are just examples. Any metro app you have (contacts, calendar, messaging, facebook, twitter, linkedin, music, videos, pictures, games...... if they're built with the Metro API you can easily add live tile functionality.

      There's no reason Widgets couldn't

    54. Re:My Stadegy. by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      True, but we have been using invisible UI elements for a long time and people have been getting along fine. As long as they are educated about what to use, people will get along. For instance, right click context menus are a point of contention for beginners. They don't know when to right click on something, as there are no visual cues, and the menu that appears is always different.... sometimes it's hard to understand for a new user what exactly will happen when you right click on something. Also, operations like double click to open and click drag have no visual cues.

      I was going to make the argument that most past invisible UI elements have been based on real-world metaphors, like swiping to change pages on a Kindle touch for example, but I'm having trouble thinking of any at this time of night. It does occur to me part of the reason Apple chose the one-button mouse design was because of right-click confusion. A single button gets operated by a single finger often, and then using it becomes more analogous to pointing. I'd say part of the issue with right-click contextual menus is there isn't much consistency in the targets themselves. In one program you might be able to right-click an element like an icon or its text label to get the same contextual menu, while in another you might have to click the icon itself.

      Part of what bugs me with Windows 8's UI is it has features that seem questionable in their very premise. While I was just typing that last paragraph I started right clicking around the edge of my screen to see what else was hidden and I noticed the pointer changing to a hand at the top edge. I can drag down from there and my entire screen shrinks down to an unreadable size on a colored background I can drag around. That pops back out to full size when I release. What is the point of this? Oh, I can dock the windows into a list on the left or right size (the borders appeared when I got near them). 'Course I can't figure out what I can do with the rest of the screen now that I've cleared all this space. Choosing a window from the list just takes me to that window back on the Desktop. Lots of clicking for something I can alt-tab to do, or hover over the Taskbar tab and choose the window I want from the thumbnails without leaving the desktop. I could have dragged the whole screen to the bottom and gone back to the Start screen, too -- just like if I hit the Windows key on my keyboard, or clicked the lower left corner. These changes don't feel like they're being made in a way to be helpful. It's like having a single ceiling light wired to 20 different switches in the room. Yes, an extra switch by door on the other side of the room might be useful, but after a point the extra controls feel really redundant and, like the shutdown command in the settings sidebar, like they don't really belong in places I find them.

      It becomes features for features sake, or a chance to show off eye-candy transitions. Didn't Aero Glass get removed from the RTM version because Microsoft was trying to "simplify" the user interface and depreciate graphics and battery-chewing nonsense?

      The Developer's Preview and Release Preview have both been available to the public should they wish to try them, and Microsoft has even encouraged them to in the latter.

      Right, but I think you'll agree with me that the majority of Microsoft's customers haven't downloaded and installed it, and given their opinion. Still only the opinion of the vocal minority is before us, and we have yet to see what general consumers will say.

      I don't hang out on Windows forums to really see what the (realative) Joe Sixpack does, but I get the impression most people are so lost on really understanding their computers they're scared to do anything like try a beta OS version. The not-really-tech blogs like ZDNet/CNet are the closest you're going to get to uneducated people trying it out. And most of those articles I've read aren't really glowing eith

    55. Re:My Stadegy. by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1
      Thanks again for the reply.

      Part of what bugs me with Windows 8's UI is it has features that seem questionable in their very premise. While I was just typing that last paragraph I started right clicking around the edge of my screen to see what else was hidden and I noticed the pointer changing to a hand at the top edge.

      This feature works better on a tablet; it's for arranging metro apps side by side. The good thing is if you discover it accidentally, it doesn't really do much and at worst it's jut a little strange. But on a touch screen arranging windows this way works well. On desktop, I use keyboard shortcuts to do the same more efficiently. This feature could probably have only been enabled on detection of touch screen.

      Isn't it a little much the right-click menu in the lower left corner includes "Desktop" at the bottom. They felt the need to add a menu command to take you someplace you already are. e_e Plus, Windows Explorer is on the menu, which is activated by clicking in an area right next to a Windows Explorer taskbar tile. Features for features' sake.

      This menu is accessible from anywhere on the computer, including the start screen and other metro apps. It's quite handy IMO, and one of the best features of Win8 for power users. There are even utilities available to customize it.

      There's not a big reason all three couldn't exist, though.

      But they do! Again we're taken back to the point of this article, that you can replace the start menu. In fact with classic shell you can replace it with the classic start menu or the windows vista/7 style start menu. People seem to be clamoring for a Microsoft sanctioned solution, even though odds are Microsoft's solution (if any) would implement the Windows 7 start menu, leaving all you Classic Start menu people still angry. This way, you get to choose what start menu you want, whether it's classic, 7, or something else entirely. After Windows 8 is released, I'm sure we'll see even more start menu options and further methods to removed Metro influences for people like you.

      Doesn't this feel slightly backwards, though? The search should be for items you only have a vague idea of the name of and don't want to spend a bunch of time looking for all similarly named things.

      Yeah, after I read what I wrote, I realized it is silly. But that's the way it works best, as the search isn't smart enough to find the query "That program I installed last month and used a couple times to encode some media." Searching for vague idea of a name doesn't work well for applications, since obscure applications you don't use often tend to have the most uncanny names.

      As for following the breadcrumbs, yes that works. In the case of Firefox, it's installed in the folder Mozilla Firefox. The the procedure in the start menu is to scan an alphabetical list first for Firefox.... okay not there, where could it be? The best search strategy at that point is to read every single item in the list until you arrive at Mozilla Firefox, open it, then open Firefox. With the all apps menu, you don't need to know what it's called, only what the icon looks like. I see it right away in my all apps list. If you don't know the icon, in my opinion it's easier to scan a 2D grid at once rather than a 1D list serially. So I find all apps easier to use when I don't know exactly what I'm searching for compared to search.... backwards I know. Maybe one day Desktop computers will be as smart as Google.

      There isn't a real place for readme's and other files that normally lived in Program folders to be kept and accessible simultaneously in this new interface setup.

      For now this place is the all apps list. Maybe it's not the best solution, but for now I don't feel it's any worse than what was presented with the start menu. I agree your proposed solution is better.

    56. Re:My Stadegy. by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      Try opening a second terminal window.

      Just click the icon... oh, wait a second. Damn, it just re-selected the one that was already open.

      Right-click the icon... crap, no option to do it there, either.

      Er... um... (swear violently)

      sudo apt-get install ({KDE, Gnome, LXDE, it doesn't matter... anything's better than the steaming mass of poo called 'Unity'})

    57. Re:My Stadegy. by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      I was reading another story earlier today and saw this comment and it reminded me of our discussion.

      There's not a big reason all three couldn't exist, though.

      But they do! Again we're taken back to the point of this article, that you can replace the start menu. In fact with classic shell you can replace it with the classic start menu or the windows vista/7 style start menu. People seem to be clamoring for a Microsoft sanctioned solution, even though odds are Microsoft's solution (if any) would implement the Windows 7 start menu, leaving all you Classic Start menu people still angry.

      While it's all good and well for the users this "cottage industry" exists/is appearing, the problem with utilities that change operating system behavior is they can have unpredictable behavior with other software and your system becomes an "unsupported platform" or warranty-void situation. A Microsoft-sanctioned solution means it's still Windows(TM).

      Doesn't this feel slightly backwards, though? The search should be for items you only have a vague idea of the name of and don't want to spend a bunch of time looking for all similarly named things.

      Yeah, after I read what I wrote, I realized it is silly.

      If it's any consolation I do this on iTunes all the time; I know a specific song I want to play and I start typing the title into the search box instead of drilling down to the artist (and album if need be) which I very well know to locate it. But then the search on iTunes is find-as-you-type, so I can actually pull the song up faster that way instead of having to hit a search button to begin looking and having the churning though a 1 TB drive of media files as part of its looking.

      as the search isn't smart enough to find the query "That program I installed last month and used a couple times to encode some media."

      Filetype: exe
      Last modified: within one month

      As for following the breadcrumbs, yes that works. In the case of Firefox, it's installed in the folder Mozilla Firefox. The the procedure in the start menu is to scan an alphabetical list first for Firefox.... okay not there, where could it be?

      This is one of my pet-peeves about Windows UI standards. The application is supposed to be in the Start menu in a folder named for the company that produces it. So in this case a strict following of the rules would have given us a "Mozilla" folder where Firefox and Thunderbird would both live. It's a very marketing-centric approach and is written purely to reinforce corporate branding, regardless that users often don't know who makes the software they use and don't care. In fact, I remember reading minutes of a meeting (or maybe it was a bugtracker discussion) where the Mozilla staff debated about what to do about the Start menu folders to make them "correct" but easy to recognize years ago.

      There isn't a real place for readme's and other files that normally lived in Program folders to be kept and accessible simultaneously in this new interface setup.

      For now this place is the all apps list. Maybe it's not the best solution, but for now I don't feel it's any worse than what was presented with the start menu. I agree your proposed solution is better.

      It's better now. In the Developer's Preview they weren't on an All Apps screen and lived on the regular launcher.

  5. Why not Microsoft ? by gtirloni · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If many people can quickly create something that looks like a decent Win7 start menu, why can't Microsoft just do the obvious: leave the start button there? Or at least offer the option to re-enable it. It doesn't seem like a major support burden for them, does it?

    --
    none
    1. Re:Why not Microsoft ? by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you keep it, people will keep on using it. Windows 8 Goal is to get Laptop and PC manufacturers develop more tablets and touch enabled devices. If you kept the start bar, PC makers will keep on making normal PC's and slowly die away with other OS's like Android and iOS taking over.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Why not Microsoft ? by nine-times · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because they've decided to push people toward Metro (or whatever they're calling it now). Probably so that they can try to horn themselves into the tablet market, as well as pushing people to using their own app store.

    3. Re:Why not Microsoft ? by somersault · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Trying to force a tablet UI on a general purpose machine like a laptop or desktop is just as bad as trying to use a desktop OS on a tablet. Microsoft are pretty much ensuring that no matter what you try to use Windows 8 on, you get the worst of both worlds..

      --
      which is totally what she said
    4. Re:Why not Microsoft ? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      Would that be the idea behind it? Publish through the MS app store or have your application consigned to some invisible app purgatory. Or is it possible to distribute Metro apps outside of the MS app store?

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    5. Re:Why not Microsoft ? by tgd · · Score: 2

      If many people can quickly create something that looks like a decent Win7 start menu, why can't Microsoft just do the obvious: leave the start button there? Or at least offer the option to re-enable it. It doesn't seem like a major support burden for them, does it?

      It is there. Click in the corner where the start button used to be, and the start screen comes up. Hit the windows key, and the start screen comes up. Click an icon on that screen, just like in Windows 7, and it launches. Start typing, it starts searching just like Windows 7.

      The only change is that to see "All Programs" you need to right click now, instead of clicking on the "All Programs" pop-out.

      There's no real issue here, other than Slashdot wanting to stir the pot for ad revenue, and people spouting off who haven't ever used it by repeating the pot stirring that bloggers have been posting... for ad revenue. So, basically business as usual for the FOX News of technology sites.

    6. Re:Why not Microsoft ? by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      Microsoft are pretty much ensuring that no matter what you try to use Windows on, you get the worst of both worlds..

      FTFY... This has been said since at least the very early 90s.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    7. Re:Why not Microsoft ? by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      If third parties give you the option of decent free start menu replacement, why do you care whether Microsoft produces a first party version?

    8. Re:Why not Microsoft ? by gtirloni · · Score: 1

      I couldn't care less but I'm putting myself in the average user's shoes who will waste many hours trying to get the Start button back (if they ever think about looking for a 3rd-party software).

      --
      none
    9. Re:Why not Microsoft ? by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      Trying to force a tablet UI on a general purpose machine like a laptop or desktop is just as bad as trying to use a desktop OS on a tablet.

      Except there's an entire desktop with mouse and keyboard clicky goodness waiting for you. I use it 99% of the time I'm using Windows 8, and haven't realized any productivity hits people (mostly those who have never used the OS) keep complaining Windows 8 will bring. Quite the opposite actually largely in part thanks to second-screen improvements. Don't like the start screen? Install one of the start menu replacements listed in this article.

    10. Re:Why not Microsoft ? by erik+umenhofer · · Score: 1

      They did a lot of research and found the new start menu is much better. After using it for 6-9 months now, I can agree. Finding apps and launching them on Win 7 is much slower than Win 8. As I stated in another post, when I use Win 7 now, it just feels old and last gen.

    11. Re:Why not Microsoft ? by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      It is there. Click in the corner where the start button used to be, and the start screen comes up. Hit the windows key, and the start screen comes up.

      The start screen is not the start menu. The start screen is much less convenient and efficient for most of the things I use the start menu for.

      There is a real usability issue here -- I'm speaking as someone who has been using Win 8 & Metro quite a lot over the last few months, not someone who's regurgitating things I've read on blogs. The Metro interface may be good on tablets & phones, but it's awful on the desktop.

    12. Re:Why not Microsoft ? by Missing.Matter · · Score: 1

      I'm speaking as someone who has been using Win 8 & Metro quite a lot over the last few months, not someone who's regurgitating things I've read on blogs. The Metro interface may be good on tablets & phones, but it's awful on the desktop.

      And yet you offer no specifics? After using it myself I can offer some things that the start screen I don't like (removing a single item is not efficient, you can't see the screen behind it), but many more where it's better than the start menu. The start screen offers more information than the start menu. It allows more items that can be displayed at once. It scales with screen resolution. It's easier to sort the icons into groups and arrange them within the group. You can pin folders. How about some specifics from your end?

    13. Re:Why not Microsoft ? by JohnFen · · Score: 1

      Sure. These comments are all about Metro on the desktop, not on tablets or phones or anything (where Metro is reasonable).

      Ignoring aesthetics (I find the Metro UI to be one of the more hideous UIs I've seen in a long time), I have two main complaints about it.

      There's a basic usability issue. Metro does not work efficiently with a mouse. For many tasks that I do frequently, multiple clicks and mouse movements are required. Metro also make use of "hot spots", which cause me no end of trouble.

      The biggest issue, though, is that the Metro interface does not effectively replace the start menu at all. Really, it's more of a desktop replacement (and a poor one at that, which I'll gripe about next paragraph). As a start menu replacement, Metro give less relevant information less densely packed than the start menu did. It does not allow the ability to browse all installed applications. True, I can launch all apps by typing their name, but that requires me to remember what they're called. It's much easier just to find them in a menu.

      Although it's true that most of the time I'm running one of the same half-dozen apps, Metro does not make that easier than the old way of pinning the apps at all, so there's no benefit.

      So, in my view, it's an anemic, half-hearted replacement for a start menu. Which I don't actually object to, as it's clearly not meant to be a start menu replacement -- if so, then we've lost an awful lot of functionality. It's really a desktop replacement.

      As a desktop replacement, it isn't even close to what I need. Too much real estate is wasted, too much clicking is required, and the lack of the taskbar borders on a deal-killer, since it offers no real functional alternative to that.

      All of these disadvantages would be OK is Metro gave some kind of serious advantage to me, however it does not. Metro does nothing that I couldn't do on the normal desktop, and it mostly does it less efficiently.

      The problem isn't Metro, though. The problem is Metro on the desktop. It simply isn't suitable for the desktop. Where Microsoft went wrong is in the idea of having one UI to rule them all. It's not possible without making that UI suck on some or all of the platforms. A better option would have been to do it like the Linuxes do: have a standard programmatic interface on which you can bolt any UI you wish.

  6. Windows "ate" is past tense... by harvey+the+nerd · · Score: 1

    for eats, or bytes.

  7. Not too much, please... by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 3, Funny

    Another question has yet to be answered: in Windows 8, is the BSOD still Blue? I mean, losing the emblematic Start button is one thing, but if the BSOD disappears as well, users will be really disoriented...

    --
    Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    1. Re:Not too much, please... by jmauro · · Score: 1

      Yes, but it lost all the technical codes that would allow someone to debug why the error occurred (and prevent it from erroring in the future). Now it is just a simile face and a message that you're computer isn't working right now.

    2. Re:Not too much, please... by fph+il+quozientatore · · Score: 1

      Dude, read till the end that wikipedia page that you linked to. There's even a smiley in 8.

      --
      My first program:

      Hell Segmentation fault

    3. Re:Not too much, please... by ledow · · Score: 1

      Quite funny - it took me only three weeks to BSOD brand-new, recent, fully-patched installs of Windows 7 and Windows 8 RTM's without installing a single unsigned driver, a single dodgy app, doing anything vaguely stupid (i.e. trashing random memory using a C compiler or whatever).

      Once, it crashed because I right-clicked on a CD ROM drive. That was it. I performed no other action, nothing else unusual was running.

      The fact is that the BSOD should be as rare as a kernel panic in all non-hardware failures. It's not. Even on the new OS, or fully patched ones.

    4. Re:Not too much, please... by ifrag · · Score: 1

      Dude, read till the end that wikipedia page that you linked to. There's even a smiley in 8.

      Wow... I'm sure that's going to help calm people down, now that they know the computer is sad about being crashed (actually a frowning face, it's not happy about it at least). Although if it was a :) that'd be even more hilarious.

      --
      Fear is the mind killer.
    5. Re:Not too much, please... by David_Hart · · Score: 4, Informative

      Believe it or not, BSODs can occur due to bad hardware/firmware, not just drivers. While you may have installed industry standard apps and signed drivers, did you also verify that the firmware of your CD-ROM, BIOS, etc. were up to date? Also, bad memory modules, incorrect timing settings, and over-clocking can cause BSODs. I'm assuming that you were not overclocking at the time, so it sounds like your CD ROM drive may need a firmware update.

      The point is that BSODs are not random occurrences, there is usually an underlying cause.

    6. Re:Not too much, please... by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Let's face it, the appropriate smiley for this is Awesome Face.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    7. Re:Not too much, please... by kakaburra · · Score: 1

      Dude, thats 'saddy'

    8. Re:Not too much, please... by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      The point is that BSODs are not random occurrences, there is usually an underlying cause.

      Good luck trying to prove that with the new non-descriptive BSODs!

  8. Just as an aside by chronokitsune3233 · · Score: 2

    The GNOME developers did the same thing with GNOME Shell (GNOME 3). With Windows 8, I was hardly able to do anything, and it took forever to figure out how to use it, nevermind trying to actually get back to the Start Screen. Immediate -1. GNOME Shell? It's different, but if it wasn't for the single "Activities" button, I probably would have been doing the same thing. Additionally, a list of favorite applications (such as you'd have in a dock, which is visually similar to GNOME Shell's "Dash" feature) is really useful in terms of productivity. I wonder if the Windows team will ever get that part right.

    --
    I have been a captive in America my entire life. Everybody and everything uses customary units instead of metric.
    1. Re:Just as an aside by ak3ldama · · Score: 1

      Additionally, a list of favorite applications (such as you'd have in a dock, which is visually similar to GNOME Shell's "Dash" feature) is really useful in terms of productivity. I wonder if the Windows team will ever get that part right.

      I thought Windows 7 and 8 still have the task bar at the bottom with application icons and indicators when the app is running?

      --
      "but money is the God of Algiers & Mahomet their prophet." - Rich. O'Bryen June 8th 1786
    2. Re:Just as an aside by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Generally agree with one caveat: While you pin some apps on the task bar, it starts to become a PITA when you do so for full screen games. (Basically it's a matter of alt-tabbing out, pinning it, and going back in, which takes a little effort, you don't do it as a "You know, I'm always running this, let's make sure it's always pinned" thing.)

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    3. Re:Just as an aside by chronokitsune3233 · · Score: 1

      Fair enough. I agree that it could be done. However, the feature isn't presented visually in an inviting manner. There is no dedicated panel/dock item reserved specifically for such applications. If you don't have any pinned apps, it's just another taskbar with Quick Launch items, which I always disable due to lack of personal use. How do you know you can pin an app there when all you have is a taskbar and no pinned apps anyway? Compare that with GNOME Shell and OS X, which all have an area that is specifically designed for you to launch an app and add/remove items as you see fit. To me, those areas scream for customization. A taskbar on the other hand does not. Your point is valid; the feature is there. I'm just saying that it isn't inviting enough, so uninviting or perhaps familiarly loathed that in fact it completely escaped my recollection.

      --
      I have been a captive in America my entire life. Everybody and everything uses customary units instead of metric.
    4. Re:Just as an aside by BradleyUffner · · Score: 1

      Generally agree with one caveat: While you pin some apps on the task bar, it starts to become a PITA when you do so for full screen games. (Basically it's a matter of alt-tabbing out, pinning it, and going back in, which takes a little effort, you don't do it as a "You know, I'm always running this, let's make sure it's always pinned" thing.)

      Or you could just drag the shortcut to the task bar before running it.

  9. The Big Desktop Issue? Swapping Between Screens by Jonah+Hex · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I tried, I really did, to use Win8 on the desktop both without Start Menu replacement and with one. I absolutely could not stand what felt like an unnecessary extra step between switching back and forth. I don't care if it works on a small touch screen, it doesn't work on my desktop, get rid of the extra step AND give me a Start Menu. - HEX

    1. Re:The Big Desktop Issue? Swapping Between Screens by erik+umenhofer · · Score: 2

      Learn how to use these. http://www.techspot.com/guides/506-windows-8-shortcuts-and-tricks/ and if Windows 8 is still slowers or as fast (steps) as Windows 7, the problem is really yourself and not the software.

    2. Re:The Big Desktop Issue? Swapping Between Screens by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      What extra step are you talking about? Alt-tab still works fine for me to switch between apps. Win-tab switches between metro apps.

    3. Re:The Big Desktop Issue? Swapping Between Screens by Jonah+Hex · · Score: 1

      A general response to both this post and the other reply: If I can't see a personal selection of apps/widgets/etc across my desktop multi-monitor setup without hitting a keyboard combo or mouse hotspot, then it's the UI that has failed, not my use of it. Why can I not have both interfaces visible at the same time and be able to treat the whole UI as s single entity? Also reference this interview " Usability Expert: Windows 8 on PCs is Confusing, a Cognitive Burden" or the shorter synopsis here or here. For myself I'll be sticking to Win7 for the foreseeable future, and as a Windows admin I'm more interested in the newer Server versions than I am Win8's desktop, even though older windows and scripting is where I do most of my work. - HEX

  10. I believe there's a longer strategy in place here. by HerculesMO · · Score: 5, Interesting

    And that is really, to get rid of "legacy" apps entirely. I think Microsoft is pretty tired of having third parties (hence, the reason for the surface) and OEMs give their hard work a bad name. So what they are doing is introducing a new API (Windows RT) that requires "certification" (Minecraft didn't want to do this for whatever reason to "stick it" to Windows 8), which means that they require that if you have an app in Windows 8, it uninstalls *completely* and *cleanly*, among other performance indicators and things like that.

    Microsoft is trying to retake its OS, under threat of the web, Apple, Google, etc. Windows 8, far from popular belief on this site, is actually a really good OS -- better in many ways, than Windows 7 is. It's faster (by a LOT), it's smooth, and its extensibility and APIs are still very good. The experience between "Metro" and the "Desktop" however, is extremely jarring. While I've written (and been modded up!) in the past about how bad the transition between the desktop and metro are, and how much better they "could have" done things, looking at a variety of information since then and forming a new opinion leads me only to think that they don't WANT it to be better. They want it to be jarring. They want you to start hating desktop apps and going to their store so you can get crap-ware free apps, that uninstall FAST and CLEAN, that don't bog down your computer, and have the additional benefit of getting a cheap piece of hardware to put it into like a Dell/HP/etc rather than paying two times the price for an Apple product.

    Whether this is a good strategy or not, remains to be seen. Microsoft uses a LOT of data and telemetry to make its decisions in terms of UI design, API improvements, usability, etc. As much as I'd like to say that Windows 8 is just a boneheaded move, the performance of the OS is just too damn good to think that. And I know us here on Slashdot will revile the new UI and its use (though honestly, the loss of the start menu was no big loss for me as I adjusted to the new way in about 3 seconds). There are things that definitely need improvement even in the metro UI, but I feel we'll get that with a few patches.

    The bottom line is that Microsoft is tired of having an unfriendly "BSOD" image, and they want to take steps to nix that, even if it means alienating a whole bunch of developers. I think they feel that their platform is still better on the whole than OSX (and I'd tend to agree here), and developers will still flock. By Windows 9, you won't see any more desktop apps being released... and that's the plan MS is heading for.

    Just a warning before you flame me though, I'm not ENDORSING this idea, I'm simply stating that this is where I think MS is going.

    --
    The price is always right if someone else is paying.
  11. So how do you start applications in Metro? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

    I presume there's a list somewhere.

    Personally I was never all that impressed with the start menu in the first place. The task bar was a nice addition from Windows 95, but a menu with submenus is a fairly tedious way of starting an application. Give me a list of icons.

    1. Re:So how do you start applications in Metro? by tgd · · Score: 1

      The start screen is just a full screen start menu that you can optionally pin "active" icons to.

      Nothing more. If you don't install any metro apps, its just a full screen start menu. Only if you have metro apps installed do you get anything functionally new -- active tiles. And you can unpin them.

    2. Re:So how do you start applications in Metro? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Win8 start screen is really more like a desktop - new apps get pinned to it by default, but you can unpin them, and it only shows what has been pinned - in other words, it's meant to be a selection of the most frequently launched apps. The "all apps" screen (which is accessed from the start screen via the app bar, or by starting search) is the direct analog of Start menu.

    3. Re:So how do you start applications in Metro? by tgd · · Score: 1

      Win8 start screen is really more like a desktop - new apps get pinned to it by default, but you can unpin them, and it only shows what has been pinned - in other words, it's meant to be a selection of the most frequently launched apps. The "all apps" screen (which is accessed from the start screen via the app bar, or by starting search) is the direct analog of Start menu.

      The Windows 7 start menu has always just shown pinned apps, you had to drill down into child menus to open all the apps.

      Its the exact same behavior, just a different presentation.

  12. Start menu is still there by NewWorldDan · · Score: 4, Informative

    The start menu is still there. You just don't see the icon in the task bar. All the functionality of it is still there. The first level is for commonly used programs. It's a nice clean layout that's easy to customize. From there, you can call up the 'All Programs' section. That's not organized quite so well, but it works.

    There's no compelling reason to upgrade to Windows 8, but unlike Vista, there's no reason to actively avoid it.

    1. Re:Start menu is still there by cpghost · · Score: 1

      There's no compelling reason to upgrade to Windows 8, but unlike Vista, there's no reason to actively avoid it.

      Sorry, but IMHO Windows 7 is esthetically much more pleasing to the eye than Windows 8 (Metro, Modern, or whatever they call this abomination of an UI today). As a Unix person for more than 30 years, I'm probably too old to like a cell phone UI on a desktop computer or to adapt to it without pain and a lot of inner flinching. If a future incarnation of Windows had the option of switching themes and UIs, I may reconsider. But Windows 8 as it is now? Thanks, but no thanks. I'll actively avoid this.

      --
      cpghost at Cordula's Web.
    2. Re:Start menu is still there by Rik+Rohl · · Score: 1

      Except for the fact that it's the ugliest POS ever.

      And yes, how it looks has a massive impact on how people perceive its usefullness.
      Funny thing is, its effect on me has been to ensure that I'll never buy a Windows-based tablet or phone.

  13. UNIX runs on Macs in homes by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

    Unix is expensive. [...] other than at work, I would bet you haven't touched Unix.

    A Mac mini (which runs a UNIX OS since 10.5) costs $650. So you're right that a real UNIX machine is more expensive than a low-end Windows PC, but not so expensive that only businesses can afford one.

    1. Re:UNIX runs on Macs in homes by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      *nix also includes GNU/Linux, which is way cheaper than both windows and os x.

    2. Re:UNIX runs on Macs in homes by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Even that's expensive. You can download Solaris for free.

  14. Jesus Christ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Push the God-damned windows key.

  15. 8 is NOT a replacement to 7 by foma84 · · Score: 1

    They are different target oses.

    8 is clearly not a multitasking os, the UI focuses on one application at a time. It isn't necessarily a bad thing, it matches a tipical use of a tablet, for example. If you want to multitask, the desktop is still there, but it's not the main focus.
    If on the other hand you need to do complex work, just go with traditional Win7.
    I presonally think they both will live side-by-side and happily ever after.

    Or just switch to Mint/Android.

    1. Re:8 is NOT a replacement to 7 by jbonomi · · Score: 3, Informative

      Windows 8 pro does not restrict my window management and multitasking at all compared to Windows 7. Perhaps the RT version does, I'm not actually sure. I don't think there's a good motivation to upgrade 7 to 8 on desktop PCs perhaps besides the performance boosts, but I'm excited to use Windows 8 on a laptop/notebook hybrid device.

    2. Re:8 is NOT a replacement to 7 by Tarlus · · Score: 1

      I have to ask, though, will you still be saying that when Windows 7 has completely disappeared from retail and Windows 8 is the only option available?

      --
      /* No Comment */
    3. Re:8 is NOT a replacement to 7 by Arashi256 · · Score: 1

      Old software never dies any more, it just ends up on torrent sites. No problem.

    4. Re:8 is NOT a replacement to 7 by Tarlus · · Score: 1

      When all else fails, I guess we always have a fallback. =)

      --
      /* No Comment */
    5. Re:8 is NOT a replacement to 7 by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Old software never dies any more, it just ends up on torrent sites. No problem.

      Yes, there's no security problem whatsoever with using old unsupported Microsoft software that hasn't been patched for a few years.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  16. How to fix this by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

    1 outside wear those "screen friendly" gloves whenever you can
    2 inside get your hands on one of those stylus things (hopefully you don't have to use multifinger gestures too much)
    3 have a small squirt bottle* and wipes on your desk ("encourage" your fellow Critters to clean their hands before getting close to your monitor)

    * please note i would suggest that said bottle have screen cleaner or hand cleaner in it but ...

    --
    Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    1. Re:How to fix this by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Get large USB touchpads?

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
  17. Re:I believe there's a longer strategy in place he by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    to get rid of "legacy" apps entirely

    No. They want a new legacy, same as the old legacy.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  18. Replace what's missing by multi+io · · Score: 4, Funny

    Replacing Windows 8's Missing Start Menu

    How do you replace something that's not there? Wouldn't you be *adding* it instead?

  19. My view. by vistapwns · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most of you will hate this, so fair warning.

    I love Windows 8. Let me tell you why. The start menu is supposed to be an efficient program launcher. Ok, so to launch programs with the start menu, you have to click the start button, click "all programs", click your app folder, then click the application to start it. That's 4 clicks. To start a program in Windows 8, I click the start screen area, then click the application, that's two clicks. That's a quantifiable efficiency gain. People have argued against this by referring to pinning apps to the task bar and desk top and the start menu pinned item lists.

    First, Windows 8 has the task bar and desk top, so it doesn't make sense to argue with those, if they're so good, use them in Windows 8 instead of the start screen. Two, I like the desktop and task bar clear of every thing, I never liked pinning items to the task bar because it makes it less efficient to determine what's running, I like to glance at the task bar and know everything there is running, where as in the past I have at times, in a rush, mistakenly thought something pinned was running and something running was pinned, which caused problems. The Desktop is a workspace that ideally should be clear of short cuts, as a user will do things like unzip folders there, and create many temp work files there, that need to be moved or deleted, which short cuts will get in the way of, and accidently removed. The start menu's pinned item list can only contain a few items (5 or so), so while they can be launched in two clicks you are severely limited in numbers vs. the start screen which can launch 40-60 apps in two clicks. What I like to do is unpin everything except my main apps/games, and a few metro apps I use, then group them and name the groups (minus button in the lower right.) A small action that makes things much better than the default.

    Visual recognition of large distinct icons is a much nicer way to launch programs, rather than reading folder names where often a folder name is not related to the name of the app you are trying to launch, if you have many apps it can be difficult to remember which app is in which folder causing quite a bit of digging.

    With the start screen, in addition to saving clicks versus the start menu, and being easier to find the program, you can have live tiles that give you a lot of useful information. I have an email counter, several news sites, calendar, upcoming events, and other things one click away. So why not stick with gadgets and other widgets and system tray notifications you are probably asking at this point? Well, several. Security, stability, and Power. Metro apps are run in a strict sandbox, they install and uninstall in isolated, clean fashion, so no installation or uninstallation of a metro app can corrupt the system, user data, or other metro apps, and they have strict requirements such that they can not use any CPU when not being used by the user, and very minimum system resource usage for notifications.
    Contrast this with some desktop apps I was running before to accomplish these tasks, my email program was using about .5% cpu at all times, randomly accessed the disk, and increased DPC Latency, and it was a relatively well behaved email tray notifier as I tried a few others. A small amount, but it adds up for many such items. And programs like that that you (or the average user) gets from the web, have free reign over your user account, even if you don't run as admin (and you almost always have to give them admin at least once to install), they can still steal any user account data and credentials from your browser. Metro apps, being tightly sandboxed, can't read or touch any other data in the user account. I find this to be pretty important, and imagine a huge boon to productivity if users get a lot of their system/productivity utilities from metro apps instead of downloading random programs on the web, where the security risk is much higher.

    Windows 8 has a lot of performance increases in it, like for real time audio

    --
    "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    1. Re:My view. by iggymanz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      nonsense, you can have all your favorite programs listed as soon as you click "start"

      the fact is microsoft has once again done "UI churning", making pointless changes just to "have something different". Like their insipid "ribbon", these changes only impede productivity and alienate the installed user base while adding nothing of value.

    2. Re:My view. by vistapwns · · Score: 1

      You can have 5 or so programs pinned in the start menu in Windows 7, you can have 40-60 in Windows 8, with room for more if you scroll sideways, which is still better than the start menu imo. Basically, all of your apps get the benefit of the pinned start menu. Your conclusion seems less than well founded, in that and other light.

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    3. Re:My view. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      The start menu is supposed to be an efficient program launcher. Ok, so to launch programs with the start menu, you have to click the start button, click "all programs", click your app folder, then click the application to start it. That's 4 clicks. To start a program in Windows 8, I click the start screen area, then click the application, that's two clicks. That's a quantifiable efficiency gain. People have argued against this by referring to pinning apps to the task bar and desk top and the start menu pinned item lists.

      Yes, that's right. Pinning completely solves this problem. When I launch an app it rarely takes me more than two clicks, and if it does, I generally use the keyboard, and press the win key, then type a couple letters and find what I need in the list. Probably 99/100 times I launch an app it takes me no more than two clicks, and at least 1/10 times it takes only one click. So, this is total nonsense.

      The Desktop is a workspace that ideally should be clear of short cuts

      Says who? I want to be able to create shortcuts anywhere. Many people keep stuff on their actual desk, like a phone, or a rolodex. There's valid reasons to have launchers on the desktop.

      Windows 8 has a lot of performance increases in it

      Yes, that is the only good reason to run it. If they can fix the UI, maybe it will make sense.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:My view. by iggymanz · · Score: 2

      bullshit, I have *ten* on this windows 7 box I have to use at work for MQ, vmware, & office apps.

      That's way more than 80% of windows users would have anyway.....

    5. Re:My view. by vistapwns · · Score: 1

      "Yes, that's right. Pinning completely solves this problem. When I launch an app it rarely takes me more than two clicks, and if it does, I generally use the keyboard, and press the win key, then type a couple letters and find what I need in the list. Probably 99/100 times I launch an app it takes me no more than two clicks, and at least 1/10 times it takes only one click. So, this is total nonsense."

      How is using a mouse, then typing letters on a keyboard, easier than two clicks? And as I told the other one, the pinned items in the start menu only holds 5 or so items, the start screen holds 40-60. Must be a new definition of nonsense I've never seen.

      "Says who? I want to be able to create shortcuts anywhere. Many people keep stuff on their actual desk, like a phone, or a rolodex. There's valid reasons to have launchers on the desktop."

      "Says who?" Just my ideas on UIs, I mean I didn't cite anyone did I? And Windows 8 allows you to pin items to the desktop, I just don't like it personally. There's a valid reason to have things on the desktop, unless there's a better alternative, which I think the start screen is. I gave reasons, unzipping files, or creating work files, and trying to work around short cuts, well, I can imagine a lot of newb-ish users would be better not doing so. But nothing stops you from doing that in Windows 8.

      "Windows 8 has a lot of performance increases in it"

      "Yes, that is the only good reason to run it. If they can fix the UI, maybe it will make sense"

      Is the debate on the UI over then? Doesn't look like it to me.

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    6. Re:My view. by Splab · · Score: 1

      God I hate that ribbon, I can't find anything any longer.

      I'm close to giving up and moving to a cave...

    7. Re:My view. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      How is using a mouse, then typing letters on a keyboard, easier than two clicks?

      That's a false comparison. It was two clicks, it's still two clicks, except for the hard to find stuff, which was three or four clicks, and is now a couple of keystrokes.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:My view. by vistapwns · · Score: 1

      It's two clicks for 5-10 apps in Windows 7, 3 or 4 for the rest, or a click and typing, and using just the mouse is easier, and still less effort. Windows 8 is 2 clicks for up to 60 apps (rough guestimate, I never put that many in the start screen.)

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    9. Re:My view. by MrBandersnatch · · Score: 1

      Even better than clicking, hit the windows button and start typing - I love it, plus its just the same as gnome 3 which also love...

      Yes, I am serious. Really!

    10. Re:My view. by vistapwns · · Score: 1

      You can do that in Windows 8 as well. I mean, if you can do something just the same in both, it makes more sense to compare where it's different, don't you think?

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    11. Re:My view. by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      I never liked pinning items to the task bar because it makes it less efficient to determine what's running

      Um, what? There's so much more running than what's being shown on the Taskbar that your reasoning is off by at an order of magnitude. As someone who's started pinning more items to the Taskbar about a year ago I can easily say that it hasn't affected how I know what's running at all.

      The Desktop is a workspace that ideally should be clear of short cuts

      Personally, I like a clean Desktop, and I can't believe that I'm going to be arguing this point. Your reasoning would be correct, if having a Desktop full of icons somehow prevented more windows being open or reduced performance in some way. But having a "messy" Desktop doesn't interfere with running any program in any way shape or form. The reason why a Desktop covered in icons isn't great is because it isn't an efficient way of launching applications. It creates a jarring experience to minimize/close all running programs to start a new program and then get "jarred" again by bringing all of the windows up again.

    12. Re:My view. by jader3rd · · Score: 1

      My mother, who can barely turn on a computer, has more than 10.

      Yes, but how many does she launch in any given day? She probably has a browser running, maybe some document reader, and perhaps some solitaire-esque game.

    13. Re:My view. by vistapwns · · Score: 1

      Either way, the Windows 8 start screen is either better or no worse. If she could open every program she uses on a daily basis with the start menu pinned item list, that's 2 clicks, or just pinning them all to the Windows 8 start screen is 2 clicks for all of them...

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    14. Re:My view. by vistapwns · · Score: 1

      "Um, what? There's so much more running than what's being shown on the Taskbar that your reasoning is off by at an order of magnitude. As someone who's started pinning more items to the Taskbar about a year ago I can easily say that it hasn't affected how I know what's running at all." It has nothing to do with knowing what every program running is, what I mean, is if I have a program pinned to the task bar, in a rush, I sometimes think it is running when it is not but should be, or if I have a program running (with it's icon in the task bar), I think it is just pinned and not running when it is running but should not be. Besides, the task bar is not a good place to put a lot of items, and even if you love the idea so much, then continue using it in Windows 8 as you would in Windows 7. The comparison is really between the start menu and the start screen, because everything else is the same except the start screen is a more efficient replacement for the start menu. "Personally, I like a clean Desktop, and I can't believe that I'm going to be arguing this point. Your reasoning would be correct, if having a Desktop full of icons somehow prevented more windows being open or reduced performance in some way. But having a "messy" Desktop doesn't interfere with running any program in any way shape or form. The reason why a Desktop covered in icons isn't great is because it isn't an efficient way of launching applications. It creates a jarring experience to minimize/close all running programs to start a new program and then get "jarred" again by bringing all of the windows up again." There are multiple reasons, personally I would find that having a bunch of short cuts on the start screen and trying to copy-n-paste, delete, and manipulate the temp files I put there would be irksome. What you put forth, is just another reason it's not the best idea.

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    15. Re:My view. by Dan667 · · Score: 1

      the only thing microsoft has been adding is clicks. The ribbon? More clicks to do the same tasks. This new win8 interface certainly sounds like more clicks to.

      More clicks means less productive.

    16. Re:My view. by ImprovOmega · · Score: 1

      I added the Quick Launch back into Windows 7, and I did the same in Windows 8. The only difference is that my Quick Launch in Windows 8 has an extra 15 or so icons in it so that I can get to *everything* that I commonly use instead of simply supplementing my start menu.

      Either way, my huge overarching complaint with Windows 8 on the enterprise desktop is that apps that require administrator to install then have to be manually pinned on users' Metro interface, or put on the desktop, or into a Quick Launch. There's no immediately obvious method of accessing your new app, and extra action has to be taken to get it listed *for every user that uses that computer*. But you can bet your ass they have access to the Windows Store by default (which doesn't work behind the firewall anyway). Way to crap on your business customers Microsoft.

    17. Re:My view. by vistapwns · · Score: 1

      Quick Launching, well, the usual applies. If that's all you do, what does the start screen cost you? The start screen only costs you when you use the start menu, and then there is no tangible cost because it's less clicks, with easier navigation and identification of apps. I don't know about the second part, I assume you mean when you run the users as standard user, and install a program in another administrator account (standard elevation), is this not something that group policy would rectify? And not working behind the firewall, well, it works behind my DSL router firewall. I guess your corporate firewall is very strict, well, I don't see how MS could make an app store work without net access. But even if the users can't use metro apps, they don't lose anything by using Windows 8, and since most everyone only upgrades when their old machine breaks, it's not like it will cost extra.

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    18. Re:My view. by liquidweaver · · Score: 1

      Very well written. I only wanted to make one, trivial comment - an OS cannot possibly allow an email program to directly change the latency of interrupt handlers (your DPC latency remark). This implies that a userland program can somehow change the behavior of the kernel and hardware significantly, which either cannot or should not be the case.

      As tiny as that statement is, especially mixed in with a sea of insightful, poignant insight I found the juxtaposition of your knowledge with that one remark vexing.
      I don't use windows, but I would be tempted to check against Outlook next time I'm in the office :)

      --
      mov ah, 4ch
      int 21h
    19. Re:My view. by vistapwns · · Score: 1

      I did not say they were not open minded, I simply said that I was open minded. Me being open minded does not preclude them from being open minded. Or does it? Hmm, I wonder.

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    20. Re:My view. by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      that would be *favorite* apps, the everyday always-used apps. I'm a systems op and developer, but at my home desktop & laptop have: firefox, thunderbird, pan, terminal, open office.

      ten is an absurd amount I have at work in a windows vm because I'm a systems admin

    21. Re:My view. by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      It's not "pointless". There is very much a point to it. The point is that the old UI was not touch friendly, while the new UI is.

      The way they see it, desktop users can use the new UI, while tablet users can't use the old... so make the new UI standard and everyone has the same interface.

    22. Re:My view. by BradleyUffner · · Score: 1

      Most of you will hate this, so fair warning.

      I love Windows 8. Let me tell you why. The start menu is supposed to be an efficient program launcher. Ok, so to launch programs with the start menu, you have to click the start button, click "all programs", click your app folder, then click the application to start it. That's 4 clicks. To start a program in Windows 8, I click the start screen area, then click the application, that's two clicks

      You can start a program from the start menu with 1 click in windows 7. Hold mouse down over start menu without releasing the button, and drag to the program you want to start, and release. Mouse down + mouse up = 1 click.

    23. Re:My view. by vistapwns · · Score: 1

      Never knew about that. Anyway, still doesn't sound as good, there are more issues being discussed than simply mouse clicks I just find it convenient to refer to mouse clicks generally. There's issues with navigating, reading folder names that often don't have any relation to the program name you're looking for, etc. There's the fact you can get lots of useful information from the start screen with live tile metro apps, that are highly sandboxed, which means when I go over to my mom's house (after putting her on Windows 8, and pointing her towards the app store) I should have a lot less crap to clean up on her computer. Holding down the mouse button and trying to drag the mouse doesn't seem like it'd be a comfortable way to use the mouse to launch applications, I'm pretty sure I'd prefer just 2 regular clicks.

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    24. Re:My view. by vistapwns · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure why you think that. If you run were to run DPC Latency Checker, and try streaming as much info from a bunch of drives into RAM as fast as you could, user land or not, it's going to affect Interrupt (DPC) Latency, since user land can initiate actions that require interrupt services. Email programs, well, lots of stuff that runs in the background, just exhibits that effect to a smaller degree, but it does add up. I appreciate the positive and complimentary comments on my post, though.

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    25. Re:My view. by vistapwns · · Score: 1

      Might sound like it without a more thorough insight, but in reality it is less clicks (more specifically effort.) I've evaluated the software for months, there is a ton of FUD about it compared to what I see in my everyday use. You'd think I'd be losing my mind trying to use it as I do every day, in fact things are pretty boring, I launch all my apps/games without really thinking about it, and utilize the information I get from metro apps throughout the day and life pretty much goes on.

      --
      "...I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease." - Linus Torvalds
    26. Re:My view. by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      which is still better than the start menu imo

      Better? I'll give you much better. On a 1920x1080 screen, have 2 million 73 thousand 600 "buttons" to launch various activities. Then you can have a specific button for every activity a windows user can possibly think of.

      Except that "more buttons" is not always better. It takes fewer clicks but more searching among the lots of different buttons for the one you are looking for.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    27. Re:My view. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Most people don't use 60 apps regularly. And I'd bet money that most people who do don't run Windows, let alone will they run Windows 8.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    28. Re:My view. by teh+dave · · Score: 1

      I agree with most of what you say, but this:

      I like the desktop and task bar clear of every thing, I never liked pinning items to the task bar because it makes it less efficient to determine what's running, I like to glance at the task bar and know everything there is running, where as in the past I have at times, in a rush, mistakenly thought something pinned was running and something running was pinned, which caused problems

      is retarded. Perhaps you don't like pinning apps to your taskbar, but the rest of us find it exceptionally useful. You don't like putting apps in your taskbar because you can't tell what's running? That's what the border is for. It couldn't be any more obvious. If that isn't good enough for you, try adjusting your resolution because you must be blind.

  20. No different than now by neminem · · Score: 1

    I was forced into Windows 7 both at home and work. Yes, the Windows 8 not-a-start-menu is dumb, but the Windows 7 start menu is dumb too. Just get classic shell and get on with it. (Well, classic shell, a better file manager, a better search window, a better taskbar... all things that were necessary for Windows 7, too.)

  21. I remember when Win95 came out by Toreo+asesino · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Lot's of people kept using Program Manager anyway because they didn't like it. I wonder how many people still do now?

    --
    throw new NoSignatureException();
    1. Re:I remember when Win95 came out by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      I like the concept of program manager window even now. In fact I use something close to it in my win7 machines at work. Created a tool bar, added two levels of short cuts to launch applications. CommandWindows (cygwin, cmd), browsers (chrome, firefox), editors (emacs, slickedit), others (clearcase, exceed). I need a place where every body and his brother does not add stuff. It should have my stuff, and only my stuff. It should be easy for me to move anything I don't want there out of sight, safely and painlessly.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    2. Re:I remember when Win95 came out by Nimey · · Score: 1

      No they didn't. Most people who'd used both preferred Win95's Explorer/Start Menu interface because it sucked a lot less.

      I'm sure some people did, but they'd be a small, small minority.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
  22. Re:I believe there's a longer strategy in place he by djmurdoch · · Score: 1

    They want it to be jarring.

    That's pretty believable. They did that back in the 90s with the "DOS box" terminal window: they changed the default colours that DOS actually used, to make them more saturated and jarring. (I forget if this was Win 3.1 or Win 95.)

    Who would want to keep using one of those old DOS apps with the ugly colours, when you could move to Windows?

  23. Re:I believe there's a longer strategy in place he by blind+biker · · Score: 2

    And that is really, to get rid of "legacy" apps entirely. I think Microsoft is pretty tired of having third parties (hence, the reason for the surface) and OEMs give their hard work a bad name. So what they are doing is introducing a new API (Windows RT) that requires "certification"

    Utter bollox. The only reason MS is doing all this, is because they want a share of every sale of every software made for Windows, through their appstore. They don't, like they never did, give a flying supersonic shit about "third parties and OEMs give their hard work a bad name".

    --
    "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
  24. Cottage industry of Start Menu overlays ... by stevez67 · · Score: 1

    co-depending techie Luddites since the dawn of the computer age.

  25. Re:howhttp://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/10/0 about by erik+umenhofer · · Score: 1

    Use it for a for a few months. You'll realize the start menu is outdated. When I use Win7 no it feels clunky and slow.

  26. Re:I believe there's a longer strategy in place he by HerculesMO · · Score: 2

    I highly doubt they will take away the ability to sideload applications, but they *do* want developers who write for Windows 8 to get "certified". Those certifications ensure a rigorous check against performance, uninstallation, etc.

    And I've spoken to quite a few friends inside MS that tend to think that Sinofsky is of the opinion that Dell and other OEMs fucked them over with crapware baked PCs. It's no wonder MS introduced the "MS Signature" line, that has zero crapware installed by default under his reign. I'm not discounting they aren't happy about the money, but I do think they realize that a declining marketshare is more important to address than what they'd make up in the app store.

    --
    The price is always right if someone else is paying.
  27. An idea by Tarlus · · Score: 1

    I've spent some time with Windows 8 and I can say that I understand and appreciate its motivation. However, I wholeheartedly agree that Windows 8 on a desktop makes me pine for a more traditional Start Menu.

    It isn't that the classic Start Menu was some perfect make-it-or-break-it feature for me, but what I miss about it is how non-invasive it is. As of Windows 7 all I use it for is to press the Windows key to type and launch an executable. Windows 8 does this as well, but it has to change the whole screen to do it which really feels like an interruption to my workflow or ability to concentrate on what I'm doing.

    That said, I'm fine with Metro if it didn't have to fill my screen. The whole Windows 8 package would be greatly improved if it had an easily-toggled mode of operation for tablets, or for desktops. In tablet mode, it would behave as it currently does where Metro and its respective apps fill the screen, with the classic Windows desktop on the sideline.

    For the proposed desktop mode, however, it would default to the traditional Windows desktop and would provide a familiar Windows logo in the lower left corner. Clicking this or pressing the Windows key would not produce a Start Menu but rather a self-contained Metro interface in the lower left corner of the screen. Launching Metro apps from here would simply put them into their own self-contained windows that can be managed as they would be with any other Windows OS.

    Transitioning between these two modes of operation would be easy enough (for people who want to dock their tablet at home with a keyboard/mouse/monitor, for example). All those open Metro apps could easily be transitioned between being standalone windows in the classic desktop, or full-screen in the Metro interface.

    --
    /* No Comment */
  28. Why use the Start menu by sa1lnr · · Score: 1

    When you can assign your own shortcut keys to any program that is on the desktop or in the programs menu?

  29. A Modest Proposal by PPH · · Score: 2

    They could port MWMto Windows. Then you'd have a root menu, configurable with all of your desktop apps, utilities and whatnot. No Start button needed.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  30. You insensitive clod! by PPH · · Score: 1

    My keyboard doesn't have a 'Windows' key!

    -- Jesus Christ

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:You insensitive clod! by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

      I've always suspected the IBM Model M was the keyboard of the deities...

    2. Re:You insensitive clod! by PPH · · Score: 1

      Model M?? Try the 5150 Keyboard. And stay off my lawn, kid!

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  31. Reality VS Expectations by liquidweaver · · Score: 1

    When are the Windows folks going to get to the desperation phase?
    http://www.vtaide.com/gleanings/expectation2.htm

    I'm lucky I was able to do so, but I jumped the Windows ship entirely mid-Vista era. Before I get flamed to death, I'm only speaking for my perspective, here.
    For me, I can spend mental resources on several things: learning new technologies, making things work, development, etc. The key point is those resources are finite. Having done Windows administration since NT, I can tell you from past experience and from where the Redmond train is headed you will always be re-learning how to do the same things. Damn near everything I learned in linux with Redhat Valhalla still applies or is just slightly different now, in 2012. What has changed is me. Because of the time I have spent honing my skill with an OS whose skills tend to carry over, I have an entire corporate network that I can easily manage, with comfort knowing there will always be a distro, mine or someone elses, I will be able to get work done in. From a software persepective, I'm really happy I didn't spend a bunch of mental resources learning Silverlight/.NET whatever and put the time into learning Scala, Python bunch other exciting techs that are Free to do what I want with, not just MS. I don't want career lock-in, essentially.

    Just my 2 cents, we'll see if my bet continues to pay off.

    --
    mov ah, 4ch
    int 21h
    1. Re:Reality VS Expectations by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Before I get flamed to death

      What, for making a post critical of Microsoft and supporting FOSS on slashdot?

      That's about as edgy and controversial as someone saying they like vampires on a Twilight forum.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    2. Re:Reality VS Expectations by liquidweaver · · Score: 1

      I've been creamed before. With your UID as low as it is i'd figure you've been flamed before for a negative opinion on Apple or MS.

      --
      mov ah, 4ch
      int 21h
  32. Microsoft Strategy: Change the Users by edibobb · · Score: 1

    Microsoft seems to design their software not to give customers what customers want, but to change customer behavior into what Microsoft wants. As a result, many users have a much harder time using new releases, whether it is Windows, Office, or .Net. The Start button in Windows 7 is a big time saver for many. For whatever reason, probably to wean us from the keyboard, Microsoft has ditched, or at least crippled it in Windows 8.

    Maybe desktop users prefer not to be limited to a tablet operating system. Maybe users would like a functional help system in Office and .net. Maybe users prefer not like to be pressured into using confusing libraries in Windows Explorer. Maybe the philosophy of "If we build it, they'll have to come" is why Microsoft is so far behind in operating systems for tablets and smartphones.

  33. Those who must provide tech support by tepples · · Score: 2

    I don't feel the need to try and prove something by always having the latest of everything.

    I agree for some cases. But other people have a responsibility to provide technical support for people who do "feel the need to try and prove something by always having the latest of everything." Such people need to be aware of where Microsoft moved around all the configuration options in "the latest of everything."

    1. Re:Those who must provide tech support by somersault · · Score: 1

      Well, I am one of those people, and it's never been an issue. Using a computer isn't about knowing where everything is so much as knowing a few general principles about how things generally work in an OS, and being ready to figure things out. It will help a little to know where some options are hiding, but Windows 7 isn't even that much different to Windows 95 when it comes down to it. I'm comfortable with pretty much any OS, usually you just poke around and you find what you need. The only outlier so far has been trying to do common tasks like copying files to SD card or configuring email accounts on Blackberrys. Those things are the least intuitive devices I've ever used.

      --
      which is totally what she said
  34. No keyboard? by mroell · · Score: 1

    Are all of you one-handed? Do none of you have keyboards? The Start screen and your programs aren't multple clicks a way, it is a single tap of the Windows key to get access. Then you can launch your app with a single click. You did put your most commonly used couple dozen programs right up at the front of the Start screen didn't you? And then you unpinned all the MS apps that you'll never use too right?

    I've been using Win 8 at work, for about a week now, and I like it. The Start screen, combined with pinning to Taskbar, is infinitely better than endless desktop icons and a tray full of quick launch shortcuts.

    Also, I'm sure I'll get an "insensitive clod" for that one-handed remark.

    --
    I have no sig.
    1. Re:No keyboard? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Also, I'm sure I'll get an "insensitive clod" for that one-handed remark.

      I'm sure most slashdotters are familiar with the concept of one-handed web surfing.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  35. familiar by heracross · · Score: 1

    Microsoft doesn't realize most people use windows because they are familiar with it, once you start changing it like this people will explore options like Apple, Linux, etc.. to compare against the 'New Windows' and might move from Windows to something else entirely. They should have made this metro as a new option you can toggle on and off and let their users gradually into it - not force it upon them

  36. Re:howhttp://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/10/0 about by JohnFen · · Score: 2

    To each his own. I've been using it for several months, and I continue to miss the start menu sorely. The Metro way seems clunky and slow to me.

    I've been avoiding installing a replacement start menu, just to give things a chance, but I'm giving up and installing one. And avoiding Windows 8 as much as I possibly can.

  37. Product managers, take note by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    If, after releasing your shiny new product for beta, people spend the most effort making it operate like some other product (including your most previous one), then you did it wrong.

    Go back to the drawing board, and try it again.

  38. ...over the phone by tepples · · Score: 1

    Using a computer isn't about knowing where everything is so much as knowing a few general principles about how things generally work in an OS, and being ready to figure things out.

    Until you have to help a relative with an OS-specific problem over the telephone, as I have had to do several times. I don't think the relative would be willing to read you the entire screen just so that you can apply such general principles.

    1. Re:...over the phone by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      If the relative can't use the same OS you're using, that's when you tell the relative to go to Geek Squad or some local computer repair place and get them to fix the problem for them.

      Since when did being related to someone make you their full-time on-call unpaid tech support?

    2. Re:...over the phone by uutf · · Score: 1

      Uh, since forever? I guess your relatives are more understanding (or you don't like your family)

    3. Re:...over the phone by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Both I guess. I don't stay in contact with any more than my most immediate family, and I live across the country from them so I can't help them anyway. Plus, I don't know much about Windows so unless I'm actually sitting in front of the machine to poke around with it and figure it out as I go, there's not much I can do.

    4. Re:...over the phone by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      If the relative can't use the same OS you're using, that's when you tell the relative to go to Geek Squad or some local computer repair place and get them to fix the problem for them.

      Since when did being related to someone make you their full-time on-call unpaid tech support?

      You must be a bundle of fucking laughs at family reunions.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    5. Re:...over the phone by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I would never attend a family reunion. I have nothing in common with those people. Why would I spend all that money to travel across the country to meet some people I haven't seen since I was a child (and some, not at all) when I could take a vacation someplace nice instead?

  39. Re:I believe there's a longer strategy in place he by HerculesMO · · Score: 1

    If they can get a new host of developers by making it "cool" again, losing legacy developers won't be an issue. Or, those legacy developers will turn around and write code that MS will get behind. Win win for MS.

    --
    The price is always right if someone else is paying.
  40. Re:I believe there's a longer strategy in place he by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
    Funny you should bring this point up.

    Two weeks back I installed a webcam in my Win7 machine to use some video chat application. An old webcam salvaged from some discarded old pc in the basement. Then Win7 refused to sleep. The monitor dutifully goes to sleep in 15 minutes of inactivity. The computer should follow in another 5 minutes. But the machine would not go to sleep. I knew it is always the device drivers that keep the machine up.

    Turns out this web cam launches Windows Live Messenger service, which keeps the machine up. Even if I close all windows and kill it, it would not let the machine sleep. Ended up having to uninstall Windows Live Messenger and everything named "Windows Live" to get my machine to sleep correctly.

    Do you know the vendor of that webcam that screwed up so badly and gave such a bad name to Microsoft despite all the hard work they are doing?

    It was Microsoft! (The windows live is a dead give away and the punch line does not punch). Before the go about rooting out all those hardware vendors who damage Microsoft's reputation by their shoddy work, may be Microsoft should first make sure its devices work correctly and try not to pitch services in my face like some despo street hawker in the bazzaars of Baghdad.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  41. I can see Windows 8 's first service pack now by Cito · · Score: 1

    Do you have a desktop? Are you a gamer?

    Then download Windows 8 Service Pack 1 Desktop Edition, it adds an "Enthusiast" button instead of metro for the "crazy wacky desktop enthusiast"!!!

    Get it now in the Microsoft App Store for $49.99!!!!!!

    *hurries and pays and realizes all it added was a start button... with racing stripes!!!*

  42. Who has actually tried Win8 ? by paulxnuke · · Score: 1

    I've been using it (actually Server 2012) at work for a while. To get the Start menu, you hit the Windows key (likewise on bootup to get the real desktop), much simpler than mousing over to the bottom left. There are _zero_ restrictions on installing signed or unsigned shareware off the 'net: how free can you be? Metro does sound like a complete bust, but I'll try it if I ever need to run a Metro app: turning off UAC, which is just as essential as it was on 7 or Vista, also disables the Windows store, BTW.

    The new start screen works fine, if you don't see the app you want (and it displays a LOT more choices than the Start menu), just start typing and it works (AFAICT) better than Win7. If you want My Computer, Servers, the Run command, etc, you need to learn a couple of Windows-key shortcuts, that are much faster and nicer than going to ANY menu. I keep a list on my corkboard and people drop by to use and/or copy it.

    What's the problem? I've concluded that I actually like Win8 (much better than Apple's Lion, the last version I tried) and would be likely to install it on a new machine. Disclaimer: I am oriented towards learning to use new software as delivered rather than tweaking it. I strongly avoid customizing OS's (i.e., disabling UAC is necessary, changing skins and shortcut keys generally isn't.)

  43. Trust Me! by edibobb · · Score: 1

    "Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen has called Windows 8 'puzzling' and 'confusing initially,' but assured users that they would eventually learn to like the new OS."

  44. It sucks and you're used to it by i286NiNJA · · Score: 1

    The start menu is horrible I wish it would go away. It was designed so that someone with no idea what they're doing can guess their way to the correct destination. Much like the horrible category mode that control panel had. Example:
    Uhmmm I've never seen a computer before I guess I want to start here uhm games, uhm Myst, uhm Start Myst.
      That's the thinking but it even fails at that because it's more like:
    I want uhm start... wow that's a list of things hmm.. oops the menu closed ok open it up again ok uhm games... no.. I want Borderbund software... uhm ok Cyan Games? Uhm Myst... Play myst in window.. no play myst fullscreen.. yes.

  45. Re:Classic Shell by zlives · · Score: 1

    does this disable the metro completely... i would want the ability to use metro in a tablet mode but when I dock i want to be able to use classic shell...
    assuming you are a classicshell shill! plz explain

  46. Re:I believe there's a longer strategy in place he by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

    The "Photos" screen saver caused the same problem in Vista. Use that screen saver and your machine wouldn't go to sleep. I don't know if they ever fixed that bug in Vista and they removed the entire screen saver from Windows 7!

  47. They don't know what to do by humanrev · · Score: 1

    The problem I have with Windows 8 is that Microsoft don't know what to do. They've been experimenting with tablets many years before the iPad, but without much success. The first iPad comes along, BAM! Apple have now effectively created a new market even though in theory, Microsoft's years of experience with tablets should have had more of an impact by now. So Microsoft are concerned about what they should do, so they come up with a new interface and platform aimed at touch devices rather than a hacked version of the existing WIMP interface grafted onto a tablet/phone. This makes sense.

    BUT... and this is the bit that annoys me... Microsoft seems to believe that the only way they'll get more success with their phone and tablet line is if they FORCE this interface onto their traditional Windows platform, which one normally finds on non-touch desktops and laptop. They removed the Start menu and the ability to easily boot straight into the desktop instead of the Start screen because, well, people naturally will gravitate into doing things the way they've always done them, and will likely not even bother with the Metro functionality if this was possible. Microsoft have to force people to deal with Metro as much as possible because it's the only way they'll be exposed to the interface that Microsoft is using on mobile devices. They won't deal with Metro by choice, because it has few benefits on the desktop.

    Microsoft are trapped with Windows 8. If they provide an option to disable all the Metro functionality, people will take the option and nothing will improve for their mobile division (and hence their fear of slipping away into obscurity, a fear I think is overblown to be honest). If they force people to use Metro, like they have, then people will resent them as no-one likes using something which they hate and know was forced onto them simply because the company is failing elsewhere.

    --
    Most people on Slashdot are fucking idiots.
  48. Not so hard really by spud1955 · · Score: 1

    I like change so I've googled around a lot of articles about the lack of a start button. You basically have to learn two keyboard shortcuts and everything is fine. The other thing people don't like is multiple clicks to shutdown your machine. Once I found out that Microsoft reckons most laptops, desktops and tablets have a sleep mode and they thought "We'll just let the computer do that" I stopped worrying. I had a colleague once who used to spend a day on every new version of windows making it look and work just like Win95. Whats the point?

    1. Re:Not so hard really by neminem · · Score: 1

      I -like- the Win95 interface, that's the point. Why should we be forced to use a new interface when the old one, that we're used to, was great? Which is not to say there aren't things that would improve it. I can't live without tabbed file management anymore, for instance, having started using an alternative file manager originally just to get around all the bugs in Win7's native one. But not all changes are improvements, that's the important thing.

      I do agree about shutting down, though - unlike file management, I shut down my computer so infrequently that they could make it a huge pain to do, and while I would make fun of them for it, I wouldn't really complain that much.

  49. I don't need a menu! by casab1anca · · Score: 1

    I can't remember the last time I actually used the Start menu as a "menu". Ever since Windows 7 came out, I've pinned my most frequently used programs to the taskbar, and I only ever used the Start menu as a search bar.

    When I switched to Windows 8, I initially thought I might miss the Start menu, but after several months of use, I have no complaints. I mostly use the desktop mode; I can still pin stuff to the taskbar, I can search for stuff in the exact same way (hit the Start key and type to search), and I can hit the Start key to glance at live tiles (weather, stocks etc.)

  50. Re:I believe there's a longer strategy in place he by bingoUV · · Score: 1

    so you can get crap-ware free apps, that uninstall FAST and CLEAN, that don't bog down your computer

    ???

    Windows itself doesn't uninstall FAST and CLEAN. It always screws up other OSes installed on the same hard drive.

    And Microsoft has been the king of bogging down your computer. My 2007 home computer with Linux is more responsive than my i7 work laptop running Windows 7.

    --
    Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
  51. GNU's Not UNIX by tepples · · Score: 1

    I would be willing to concede that you may use a distro of Linux but other than at work, I would bet you haven't touched Unix.

    *nix also includes GNU/Linux

    Anonymous Coward's point was that GNU/Linux can't legally be called UNIX.

    1. Re:GNU's Not UNIX by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      [...]some kind of Unix[...]

      unix-like OSs sound close enough to me, even they're kind-of-unix, even though they're not formally Unix.

  52. I still say... by CTU · · Score: 1

    That M$ should have modified there Windows Phone 7 or 8 to be used for tablets and kept the desktop OS clean of tablet changes.

  53. I like all the third party apps out for Windows by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

    Like CircleDock, for instance.

  54. Re:I believe there's a longer strategy in place he by cavebison · · Score: 1

    I think this is true, and it's a logical progression really. MS won the "pc wars" by being ubiquitous, letting 3rd party hardware m/fs do their thing. It was kinda messy, but everyone gained. We gained cheap and upgradeable PCs, MS dominated their market, countless business sprung up supporting PCs, countless vendors emerged selling more and more amazing technology, cheaper and cheaper, until we hardly knew what to do with the cycles, hence the stunning games we have now.

    Consoles wouldn't have evolved to the state they are now, if it weren't for PCs having set a very high standard for gaming, and all the existing R&D that had gone into graphics because of the PC gaming market.

    Seriously, people forget how much we have to thank MS's efforts for - and IBM's for the original open PC. MS had to support hundreds of vendors writing drivers for all manner of cards and peripherals, always pushing what a PC could do, and MS had to provide a platform to support it all. It was a truly world-changing effort, whatever people say about MS's market tactics. The result is that *everyone owns a computer*, when 30 years ago they were only hobby or specialist machine.

    And that isn't even mentioning Windows in the workplace, which opened up a whole other world, and then there's the commodity server market making up much of the Internet, which is dominated by Linux and Windows.

    I grew up with the whole "Evil MS Empire" thing, but I feel very nostalgic and think we have a lot to thank them for.

  55. Re:howhttp://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/10/0 about by mcgrew · · Score: 2

    Use it for a for a few months. You'll realize the start menu is outdated.

    Outdated how? How is the lack of a start menu an improvement, unless you're one of those muggles who always starts their programs from a desktop icon? Me, I never see the desktop once I've opened a single program.

    I've seen hundreds of comments explaining just how and why W8's interface sucks, how about explaining why you think it's better than the start menu?

  56. Yeah... No. by sgtrock · · Score: 1

    Sorry, I can't agree with your analysis. I never have really liked the OS/X UI all that much. Apple's implementation of the dock is one of the things I dislike the most.

    But then, I'm old school. My first GUI was an XWindows workstation (running CDE or Motif on HP/UX, I think). Right click to bring up a menu anywhere on the background, multiple configurable workplaces, cascading menus, this is the way that FSM intended a UI to be! :-)

    But, to each his own. Just goes to show that choice is good, right?

  57. I hate the new Start hot spot area thing by teh+dave · · Score: 1

    My biggest gripe with Windows 8 isn't the Metro interface. No, my problem is Microsoft saw fit to reduce a large Start button to a tiny 4x4 pixel area. How in the absolute fuck am I supposed to click that easily/quickly/reliably when using multiple monitors or Remote Desktop? And the Charms bar is even worse as it's only a single pixel (so it seems, but it can't be bigger than a 2x2 area) in which I can activate it. Again, how do they expect us to use multiple monitors or windowed remote desktop with this crap? It's like trying to run XP on a tablet and use your finger to operate it - ridiculous!

  58. Re:howhttp://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/10/0 about by graphius · · Score: 1

    I never see the desktop once I've opened a single program.

    I rarely have just one program open, but I still can't see my desktop. Sometimes I arrange important icons in areas of the desktop not covered by windows, but I still spend most of my time in front of the computer looking at programs I am using. Not having a start menu is just dumb.