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Linus Torvalds Advocates For 2560x1600 Standard Laptop Displays
beeudoublez points out a Google+ post by Linus Torvalds arguing that today's standard laptop display resolution is unreasonably low. He said, "...with even a $399 tablet doing 2560x1600 pixel displays, can we please just make that the new standard laptop resolution? Even at 11"? Please. Stop with the 'retina' crap, just call it 'reasonable resolution.' The fact that laptops stagnated ten years ago (and even regressed, in many cases) at around half that in both directions is just sad. I still don't want big luggable laptops, but that 1366x768 is so last century."
See title
My 7 year old laptop had a 1920x1200 resolution and when I bought a new one a few months ago I had to look all over just to find one that had a 1920x1080 resolution.
First of all, the retina display and other 'high def' isn't actually a true display of that resolution, just a multiplication of the pixels in a 1:4 ratio of a smaller resolution. Laptops are lacking in graphical power and actually providing that as a true resolution is a bit of a hard proposition for anyone for an actual laptop that might have to do anything graphically demanding. That and it doesn't particularly look very good just making those smaller resolutions just 'blown up'.
Go Linus!
How about 4K standard desktop resolution for 22" monitors? All this DPI fighting needs to leak over into desktops eventually.
Apple has provided "crappy" retina displays, in both tablet and laptop formats, for months already, and reproduce a wider color gamut than anyone else's displays (least of all OLED). ;-)))))
By the way, if Apple's retina displays rate a 10, those 2560x1600 @10" displays certainly go to 11.
Along with higher resolution.
I realize that this is a lost cause and all; but why would you endorse a 16:10(at least it's not bloody 16:9...) rather than a 4:3 for a laptop? For a tablet, sure, where you can change the orientation and turn your sprawling rectangle into a nice, readable, page-width reading surface; but a laptop, where the keyboard keeps you from doing that?
If virtually all laptop displays are going to be laid out as though they are used for nothing but watching movies it would be nice if they at least threw in some additional pixels; but do we have to give up the shape that is better for dealing with text in a reasonably sized package? Absurdly wide desktop screens are fine, because you can just make them larger, and treat them as multiple page-sized screens when needed; but laptops have space constraints to deal with...
It was years before LCDs even had something available in a store approaching the higher-res CRT monitors, much less at a reasonable price.
Yet they phased all the CRTs out well before they had reached that point.
Who makes decisions like this, and the re: the laptop resolutions? How can we make them ~rue~ those choices?
Most desktop monitors have stopped short of the 2560x1600 standard as most computer monitors now use the same glass as HDTV. If laptops with 14-17" screens become standard at 2560x1600, then I'd expect my desktop 23" monitor to go to at least 5000x3000 or so.
I have been holding off buying a new laptop.
Give me a thinkpad (well, lenovo) with 4:3, 12-13", and 2048*1536, and I'm buying one tomorrow.
Similarly a 23-24" 140dpi or so monitor
Agree 100%
After all, CRTs capable of doing 2304x1440 has been around since 2000[1], and LCD monitors doing 3840×2400 has been around for over a decade.[2] It is a total utter rip off for manufacturers to decrease screen resolution for over a decade.
[1] http://www.docs.sony.com/release/GDMFW900.PDF
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_T220/T221_LCD_monitors
Along with higher resolution.
+1 on the full keyboards!
My kingdom for a damn 10-key...
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Who can read anything at that resolution for fuck sake?
I agree completely. I'm writing this on my 10" netbook, where 1366x768 is quite decent. That my work laptop that is about twice as big has the same resolution is downright silly. I still miss my early nineties Thinkpad that had 1400 ( or so) x 1050.
It is strange that the screen rez has been locked low for some reason. Maybe, considering how easy it is to create projection displays, maybe they don't want it getting really easy by using a laptop to do it.
what reasons are others coming up with?
Totally Agree. Mod Linus Up! Oh, he's in the real world, I forgot. Bummer.
Wasn't its 1024x768 and 1280x1024 that were popular in the late 90's?
1366x768 is the bastardised "720p HD Ready" TV panel. Its cheap and everyone produces them.
I don't think its a coincidence that Samsung stopped producing high res panels for Apple just before a new range of high res Android devices were announced.
Samsung and LG seem to be the only ones with the capability/capacity to do it in volume right now. Low res panels are cheap because everyone can do it.
I'm not following you. Full keyboards are standard on 17" laptops, and for that matter, most 15.6" laptops have keypads.
Apple now offers you two laptops with that res and higher. Yet instead of praising what apple has done, he says "stop with the retina crap". How about advocating that Linux desktop developers make it so these resolutions are usable on laptop displays, as OS X and Windows 7 and 8 do? Have you seen what linux desktops look like on a MBPR? OS X has their method of scaling things properly, win7 in my opinion does a better job, Linux desktop environments simply don't do anything.
It is strange that the screen rez has been locked low for some reason. Maybe, considering how easy it is to create projection displays, maybe they don't want it getting really easy by using a laptop to do it.
what reasons are others coming up with?
This is a no brainer .. the vast majority of laptops are purchased by either businesses where the bean counters rule or by nontechnical folks who think that
the only thing a higher resolution is good for is making the text too tiny to read. Both groups tend to pick the cheapest product that appears to service their needs.
The problem with laptop and desktop LCDs, is that they adhere to the 1080p TV display spec, probably to shave cents of some controller somewhere, or to share a production line. Apparently it's vital that the hundreds of millions of computer displays made each year have everything in common with the non-existent 15" TV market, or whatever the fuck.
Luckily, there's a lot of progress on making 4K resolution the new standard for video, which means that it should trickle "down" to computer displays. Despite the name, the new standard will have 3840 x 2160 resolution, but that is still notably higher than what Linus is asking for, providing 183 dpi even on a 24" display!
If you can't wait, there's going to be affordable 4K TVs appearing soon with HDMI input. Just replace the monitor on you desk with a TV mounted on the wall behind your desk. You'll probably need a new video card, but the good thing is that most OS-es now hardware accelerate desktop composition, so the result should be silky smooth. You might even be able to get 120Hz going, but don't hold your breath: display connectors haven't caught up with the required bandwidth. Your 3D card might be able to generate a 48-bit 8.3 megapixel image at 120Hz, but that's almost 50 Gbps, and there is no PC video standard that will carry that.
Next, the operating system vendors need to get their heads out of their asses and finish implementing proper multi-resolution support instead of the half-assed job they've been getting away with for decades because of the persistent assumption that higher-resolution = bigger-surface-area!
You know what drives changes like this. People showing they will pay a premium to have it.
By a 2880x1800 or 2560x1600 Retina Macbook, when they sell in numbers, competitors will follow.
You know why there is a 2560x1600 Tablet. Because Apple sold shipping containers full of Retina iPads (2048x1536) and Google took notice and decided to one up them.
Putting your money where your mouth is, trumps whining on a blog every time.
Thus TUXGA resolution gives thee 2560 x 1920 technicolor dots.
...I just need a 2560x1600 monitor that doesn't cost four times as a similar res tablet, with its own processor, battery, wifi, memory, GPS, touchscreen and wireless HDMI.
HD TV seems to be driving this. Resolution used to be higher as far back as 5 years ago then the industry took a step backwards and everything including desktop panels regressed to 1080 lines.
This might take another leap forward with Quad HD at 3840x2160 when teh dust settles, but it will take a while.
I think you're missing his point. He's not quite satisfied with 0-9, he wants a 10 key as well... ;)
The problem is that they are not indeed "full" keyboards. Some have the 10-key on the side, but they still move around things like the directional arrows and other special keys (or remove them entirely).
The problem has been that the PC market was so commoditized that the amount of money made is so little. Everyone cries for the sub-$500 laptop, so manufacturers comply, leading to cutting of corners everywhere - LCDs are expensive (especially high-res ones), GPUs, etc. CPUs, RAM and hard drives are cheap, so you can get ones with the best gigas for marketing.
The only reaosn we have manufacturers going for higher quality displays is because of well, Apple. Since Apple refuses to participate in the low end ("Macs are overpriced!") it means Apple hsa to constantly refine their PCs to make it worth the money.
E.g., use of full metal bodies, high res displays, SSDs, etc. They do this to separate themselves from the rest of the pack.
Heck, once you promise better margins to manufacturers, they start spending that money on R&D - see the ultrabook line. They all cost around the price of a Macbook Air, or easily double or triple what the low end laptops sell for. As a result, we get them with all sorts of different screen resolutions.
Basically in the race to produce the cheapest laptop, they've left the premium market to Apple, who appeals to those who like a laptop with clean lines, "exotic" materials and other things.
Oh, and Apple invested a lot of money making high-res displays - it's not as easy to build a 15" 2880x1800 screen as it is a 15" 1366x768 screen. First off, more pixels mean more transistors and greater chance of dead pixels, lowering yield. Second, being able to address those transistors and ensure the pixels are all good is a lot harder with the smaller pixel size. So Apple's pretty much owning all the R&D on that (especially with Sharp in financial trouble).
As long as everyone and their dog have high resolution screens now, we're doomed to see screen real estate dwindle back to the 80'ties level as designers keep inflating fonts, icons and white space to keep Joe Public with something that looks like the 800x600 he's used to. I miss the day when only enthusiasts had high resolution monitors and we actually got more space.
How would having a 2560x1600 display affect battery life over 1366x768? Given that battery life became a big issue, if it would affect battery life in hours I can see why laptop makers would have sacrificed resolution for battery life.
Next, the operating system vendors need to get their heads out of their asses and finish implementing proper multi-resolution support instead of the half-assed job they've been getting away with for decades because of the persistent assumption that higher-resolution = bigger-surface-area!
This isn't just an OS problem, it's the apps that don't always handle multi-resolution support as well. It's easy for the OS to change, but when the apps look like crap or are unusable, reality sets in.
And touchscreens Linus, touchscreens.
What is it about laptops that means it is ok to leave them in the stone age in terms of usability? Oh... Microsoft.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
In fact film formats were 1.5 to 1 (35mm and 6x9), 4:3 (15 on 120), 4:5 (plate formats) and square. I have used all of these and I feel that 4:5 is overall the best for static images. But it is inconvenient for laptops. 16 by 9 is tolerable, but then for actual work I stack two monitors vertically which gives 2160 by 1920 - a good compromise for development. For anybody over 40, monitor size is far more important than minute pixels.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Or don't.
Please tell me that was a troll. I don't want to think anyone so uninformed can actually type or turn on a computer.
Except that I bought the 2048x1536 iPad because I wanted a 2560x1536 screen, not because I wanted and iPad. Then 6 months later Apple discontinues the iPad model I bought (but still sells the one from over a year and a half ago) and google introduces a 2560x1600 tablet and now I don't have the money to buy the tablet I acutally want. I hate this notion of voting with your dollars.
Apple didn't develop shit. They contacted one of the display manufacturers, I believe LG Displays in this case, and said "We want a display with these specs. If you will make us one and guarantee us exclusivity for a period of time, we will guarantee a large minimum order."
That's all well and good but stop pretending like it was some amazing feat of R&D on Apple's part. They just had a display made for them, same as ever.
By a 2880x1800 or 2560x1600 Retina Macbook, when they sell in numbers, competitors will follow.
So you're suggesting that Mr Linux buy a laptop on which .... Linux barely runs, and has no idea how to handle the display resolution? And cannot switch between the integrated and discrete graphics? And which needs a binary blob to even use the b43 wifi?
How would that make him more productive?
One big reason is cost: not only are low-resolution screens cheaper to make, but the manufacturers can use the same line of panels for both HDTVs and monitors.
Another reason is that many users don't know how to properly set DPI scaling in Windows, and until Windows 7, it often didn't work properly even if you did. Some applications on XP would break DPI scaling and result in icons, text, etc. overflowing the window boundaries. Even on Windows 7, there are a few applications that lie to the system, saying that they're DPI-aware when they are not, and give broken results. (We ran into one of these at work – a library system front-end where the icons appeared all black if any DPI except the default was used. A bug fix for that was finally put through, but it took some time.)
Keypads on laptops are barbaric. The typing space should be centered with the display, buddhammit!
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
Why the pissy attitude about "retina"? Is it just because Linus didn't snatch up the challenge first and now wants to redefine the terms that are already the standard? Sounds like Linus has a big of stick up his ass about others pushing the limits and defining terms that he can't lay any claim to. But what can he really lay claim to?
I don't expect much else from the guy who ripped off Unix and acts like he's somehow a revolutionary. I remember how much people moaned when Dennis Ritchie died a few days after Jobs and the media ignored Ritchie. Why doesn't anyone moan about how Ritchie's legacy is largely ignored by Linux fanbois?
If Linus Torvalds can't get together the necessary people to get Linux to run decently on the rMBP, there is something very wrong with the world.
I've got a second screen plugged in because the 15" panel on my laptop is TOO DAMN SMALL! 1366x768 is ridiculous! I've still got a Dell Latitude Celeron that has 1280x1024 on a 14" - and a P4 with 1600x1200 on a 15"! Where the fuck is my pin sharp resolution display that I had on a single core laptop that I couldn't *give* away even if I wanted to?
I'll tell you: flat panel televisions, that's where. 1440x900 for 720p and 1920x1200 for 1080p, while laptops get 1366x768 (yeah barely even 720p quality, forget HDTV!), and if you want 1080p standard on a market screen you're forced to fork out for a 22" Apple Cinema display or a Macbook Pro! Fucking joke...
By the way, it is possible to upgrade *most* laptop panels. Example: my Toshiba has a 15" panel which has 1366x768, so I'd need to find one which has the same frame size (15" diagonal at 16:9 aspect). The highest resolution panel I can find that meets those criteria is the Samsung Retina (for the Macbook Pro) at 2880x1800 which goes for around £90 a pop ($45 to produce, which is exactly the same unit production cost as a 720p panel the same size!). The GPU in the laptop would be able to drive that, also consider that the clock hardware is already on the panel so all I'd need to do is marry the connectors. Usually all that involves is inserting the loose end of a ribbon into an edge connector...
Operation Guillotine is in effect.
Yip that is how Apple solved this problem, they have warned application developers for like 5 years that they will introduce high resolution displays and that you better use the correct API to draw it, or else your application would look ugly.
They also gave you development tools to scale up your application to see if all the drawing is done correctly; because of antialiasing a line should be drawn through the centre of the screen pixels no matter the DPI.
Eventually Apple opted for just doing a x2 to solve a lot of problems, although you can set the scale factor differently in the OS X Preferences, and I guess that will only work well if the applications do the right thing.
Quad HD is dead in the water, 4K is it now!
Operation Guillotine is in effect.
So 720p is 768 rows, 1080p is 1080 rows and 4k is 2160 rows, and not even 4k columns? Who named it so? In Best Buy: "See how much better this 4k screen is, compared to that 1080"
Putting your money where your mouth is, trumps whining on a blog every time.
Except there is NOWHERE for my money to go. I can't vote with my wallet, because every vendor makes the exact same fucking thing, without the slightest variation. This a total failure of the free market.
Sure, finally, after years of stagnation, Apple made a single laptop model that has a screen resolution higher than 1920x1200.
Fine.
Now find me a 17" laptop that has a keyboard that drops the numeric keypad so that it can have standard 101-key spacing for the rest of the keyboard.
There is no such thing. It does not exist. There is no laptop manufacturer on the whole planet that will sell me a 17" laptop that has a keyboard designed with keys like a traditional keyboard. Without exception, they all squeeze in a numeric keypad I never use, and re-use keyboards designed for 15" laptops in their 17" models. None of the usual extra-wide gaps are present, so I can't touch-type properly. I have trouble hitting the ESC key, the function keys, the arrow keys, and ins/del/pg-up/pg-dn, none of which are EVER in the standard positions. Often those keys are half-sized too, for extra frustration.
I've said this before on Slashdot in the vain hope that that somebody from a laptop hardware vendor still frequents this Internet backwater: I will pay a $500 price premium for a laptop with a proper keyboard. However, I'm certain that this won't ever happen. We're all just consumers watching 1080p "content". Not a single programmer has ever had to use a laptop. Fuck them, and their money. That's the attitude I've been sensing from the OEMs. I don't expect it to change any time soon.
If it was at all possible, I'd start my own laptop company, and make a line of "Pro" laptops for the type of people who type with more than one finger at a time. It would have clicky keys, a 4K display, a water-resistant chassis, an externally accessible hot-swap SATA drive bay, and an 10Gbps SFP port on the back. In certain industries, it would be the only model anybody would want to buy, irrespective of cost.
I concur.
If you really need a number pad on a laptop, just get one of these.
Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
It's not a troll, it's the fundamental concept of Internet Libertarianism: any time the free market has decided that your preferences aren't widespread enough to be worth catering to, it was actually a secret cabal of statists.
Never mind that CRT monitors take up eight times the store shelf space of LCDs, or that the overwhelming majority of consumers genuinely prefer an LCD flat panel over a CRT, regardless if the CRT has better picture quality, or that every laptop manufacturer other than Apple has been on a cost-cutting race to the bottom for a decade now and that naturally includes the cheapest screens that will fit the size envelope. Oh, no, it's the environmentalists' fault that you can't buy CRT monitors at WalMart anymore, with their dastardly voluntary EnergyStar conspiracy.
Frankly, this is something I've never understood. I mean, I've got a bloody netbook (a Dell Latitude 2110) with a mostly-normal keyboard, yet even 15" or bigger consumer laptops have absolutely crazy keyboard layouts with the keys all over the place, or, as you say, even missing.
It's almost as if they try to make them as user-hostile as possible.
VPS-like shared hosting, on under-crowded servers.
I have a 14.1" display with 1400x1050 and I can't see adding more pixels would help me any unless it includes an eyeball upgrade.
I wouldn't even opt for an upgraded display if it were free as it would just suck more CPU/GPU resources and power for nothing when using 3d apps.
Mobile devices may be a little different in limited size and reasonable expectation they could at times be held much closer to the face higher pixel density could make more sense.
After a certain point I believe has already been reached with my 1400x1050 display increasing resolution is like increasing spring counts in mattresses it is only seen as worthwhile to the marketing departments.
I think the real issue behind Torvalds request may actually be an artifact in the way linux handles fonts, font scaling and lack of availability of quality fonts for linux. Without aliasing the output looks unecessarily horrible and the result has always been to increase font size to brush over the underlying problem..this effectivly effectivly reduces information density of the display compared with windows.
If you had a 2560x1600 display on a portable computer and there is still any font aliasing going on then something is very wrong and it aint the hardware.
How do I check my display resolution in Linux?
work in progress
"1366x768 is so last century" ?
Heck, I totally agree but come on, even pre/post-grub to me by default on many distros is still something really low as 640x480 or 800x600... I hope they work on that too.
+1 for the article.
Then maybe it's time Linus went into the desktop environment market, the same way he went into the version control market.
... on my 19" 5:4 LCD monitor at home with desktop PCs. :/
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
The big problem is Windows. If you look at the driving force behind all PC/Laptop sales for the last decade or more, it has been the Windows OS, and since it can't handle high-res screens well (with regards to scaling what is displayed), there have not been any high-res screens that do not natively display something that is readable to the average person. Look at the surface with Windows 8 and what resolution they chose. When Windows catches up, so will laptop resolutions.
I was kind of hoping Windows 8 was going to address the issue, but looks like yet another F$%^# up by redmond. They also need to compete on screen resolution if they want to beat Apple. Apple has highlighted that people want something that looks nice, provides a great user experience, and feels solid (ie not cheap). Build quality sounds like it is a pass and arguably Windows have worked on the user experience (epic fail from what I have tried of the pre releases of Win8), it also looks ok but they failed to provide the finishing touches of a nice high-res screen to make everything look like you can reach out and grab it.
I have wanted to have a 2560x1600 laptop display on my 15inch for a long time, since before the "Retina Display", but everyone I work with think I am crazy for wanting it. The screen real estate is precious to a developer. Yes the text is small, but I have the screen reasonable close to my face and could easily work on a smaller font if it was crisp enough for reading. I also want a 16 core processor and 64GB RAM in my laptop, at least until the broadband speeds allow me to run a private cloud at home that I can access from anywhere. I use virtual machines a lot and regularly exhaust my 16GB RAM and 8 cores on my laptop anytime I want to run end-to-end testing.
I hope Linus can push for something to happen before Windows catches up, but I have my doubts.
Yeah, thanks for making me feel bad for breaking not one but two of my nice 1920x1200 LCDs.
OTOH, 1920x1080 is getting cheap enough that you could grab 2 or even 3 for the price of one WUXGA display. Which makes me want to work and/or play three screens...
http://techreport.com/review/23217/triple-screen-gaming-on-today-graphics-cards
But since I'm a cheapskate, I just picked up a handful of cheap 19" - 21" CRTs from craigslist for between $5 - $20 each.
For laptops, I would just as soon try to set up compiz-fusion to scale (with full anti-aliasing) a large VNC session or something, so I can zoom in and out of a large X server session. I'm kinda wondering why more UIs aren't really going this route (other than maybe being slightly nauseating.)
I love high pixel density, but I think better viewing angles are even more needed. I'd like to see IPS become the standard like it has for LCD smartphones and tablets.
Sometimes innovation really is simply recognizing what is available. Sony, HP, Dell, etc. don't do that as often as they should.
Amazing feat? No.
Nothing? Just as much no.
I don't want to PAY for a high res display. 1440x900 works JUST FINE for me. Why should we force everyone to pay for something they don't need or want? That's so Apple (and now Linux, apparently).
Fuck you, fucking asshole. It's people like you that have ruined the computer industry by creating needless "standards" that cost unnecessarily.
We've FINALLY gotten functional, usable $300 laptops, and now you want to undo all that.
Again, Fuck you.
Human eyes either can't see that many pixels crammed onto such a tiny screen, or will eventually ruin their eyesight trying. A smart vendor avoids the inevitable lawsuits.
I used a 1920x1200 15" laptop for a while, and found it unusable long term, especially with Windows. X-windows was doable. Apple has a long history of deciding what the ergonomically correct resolution is for a display size and sticking with it. 13" was 640x480. 16" was 832x624, etc. All of Apple's CRT monitors were fixed resolution with the same display DPI. Even retina displays are only used to make the ergonomic resolution "look better".
If Linus Torvalds can't get together the necessary people to get Linux to run decently on the rMBP, there is something very wrong with the world.
Yes, hardware resellers like Apple are making it very, very hard for Linux to run on their laptops.
It's hard to reverse engineer things from scratch, getting Linux to run on an Intel IGM is a dream because Intel released the source code for the IGM drivers. Broadcom didn't do this for their wireless chipsets IIRC, which is why it's a pain to get Broadcom wireless working with Linux.
I dont expect a manufacturer to actively support Linux but I expect them to not actively hinder Linux.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
ThinkPenguin WOULD release a 1920x1080 model if enough people bought one. You just got to get 499 of your friends to go in on one as well. Right now there aren't even that many comments on this article. Good luck.
Seriously, I have a 14" laptop with a 1600x900 screen and the resolution is more than enough for the size. 1920x1080 is enough for computer monitors less than 23" IMO. What I really want is a high refresh rate (100Hz +) IPS monitor. Good viewing angles, good colors and smooth motion.
Apple's are a joke; little different from others
Apple's hardware is NOT better, faster, or anything else. There reliant on the SAME set of companies as every other “manufacturer” (brand you might recognize).
This is not to say that Apple's designs don't use the 'higher end' stuff... but it's not stuff that is different form what others can 'manufacture'.
The problem is the the dumb customer doesn't know what 1366x768 means, it's all gibberish random numbers to them. Digital cameras had that same issue also a long time ago, people just couldn't grasp the difference between 320x240 digital cameras and 640x480 cameras (or higher) - they kept asking dumb questions and the explanation resulted in the person getting even more confused - "what do you mean the picture is made of little dots?"
We all know what happened next: the word "megapixel" revolutionized the industry, and the more megapixel meant better camera (higher megapixel doesn't make better camera! but that's beside the point). The dumb masses had a variable to look for, and they associated higher value with more advanced. Even if they didn't know what a pixel was, they stuck with it and that's probably why you see 8 megapixel cameras on things like phones that really would be just fine with 3.
Computer monitors and TV's should start using the word "megapixel" also, like cameras do. Right now they're using the word "HD" - which makes the monitor either HD or Not HD. If you start using megapixel to refer to monitors, things will start to become clearer to consumers.
Here's a list:
0.3 megapixels: regular VGA mode (640x480)
0.5 megapixels: iPod "retina" (960x480)
1.0 megapixels: a 1366x768 monitor (standard laptop display)
2.1 megapixels: a "high definition" television/monitor (1920x1080)
3.7 megapixels: the monitor I am using right now (2560x1440)
4.1 megapixels: the Nexus 10 (2650x1600)
Then there's the IPS vs. crappy TN. That's a whole other can of worms.
You wouldnt be able to see your wesnoth soldiers at that kind of resolution.
I avocate ALL computer monitors going back to a 4:3 width to height aspect ratio. A lot of research was done that showed the 4:3 aspect ratio was the most comfortable for viewing. That has not changed.
you're holding it wrong!
This is very insightful. Clearly, the problem here is the Linux devs simply aren't working hard enough. And it has nothing to do with whether hardware manufacturers are willing to volunteer the necessary specs for their implementation. This clearly explains the situation with nvidia and AMD as well.
I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
everything going on right now (certainly in the desktop monitor space) is being driven by TV manufacturers who want "Full HD" and aren't interested in anything else.
So things like viewing angle, resolution and everything else (at least for low-end and mid-range LCDs) is largely dictated by the TV manufacturers.
I would never actually suggest a Sony, but they have at least recently had 17" laptops with centered keyboard and maybe even centered touchpad. They are flimsy and expensive and if you buy one you're a tool, but anyway.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
he can give them to me!
In 1998 I had an IBM Thinkpad 15" laptop with 1600x1200 display, 2GB RAM, 120GB HD - but only a single core 32-bit CPU... However, it ran at almost 3GHz! So, we have a bit more RAM, more cores, slower CPUs, and somewhat bigger hard drives, but until you go top-of-the-line the displays suck, resolution-wise! My current top-of-the-line Lenovo Thinkpad has a 17" 1920x1080 HD display, dual 3GHz cores, 8GB RAM, and 320GB disc. The main improvement? A 64-bit CPU so I can use all of that RAM, and CPU enhancements that allow good virtualization since I have to run multiple operating systems on the sucker. Interesting that the pixels/inch of the one from almost 15 years ago and current system (it is less than 1 yr old) is almost the same - extend that 15" 4x3 display to a 17" 16x9 one, and you get that extra 300 horizontal pixels - but you give away 120 in the vertical scale! So, old system: 1920000 pixels. New system: 2073600 - 153600 pixels in 15 years == ~10000 pixels / year improvement. So much for Moore's law!
I am getting older and finding harder to read small fonts. 2560x1600 pixel displays will only make this worse. Yes, I know I can adjust my fonts but there is no single setting in Linux that adjusts *all* the fonts. In many cases I have to go to the individual app and change a setting. Many times this does not cover all the fonts. Icons, dialog boxes, menus still use the default font. A lot of web pages over ride the font settings to use a small font.
I have thought about using a 40 inch 1080p TV as a display. It would give me big fat pixels for my tired eyes. Has anyone tried this?
Why would you want 4:3? 16:10 is the best. You can fit your movies nicely, and you can have two documents open side by side. If you tried opening two documents side by side on 4:3 it would be way too skinny. You can't see the whole line of code.
This is my favorite solution, but only you have certain models of Thinkpads and you are willing to give up your optical drive.
I would love an inexpensive netbook with 1080p resolution.
1920x1200, $369 regular price (but it goes on sale periodically)
If Linus Torvalds can't get together the necessary people to get Linux to run decently on the rMBP, there is something very wrong with the world.
He can't? I thought that was part of what he was doing with the comment?
Some Thinkpads have the QWERTY section full-sized (e.g. my T420). Arrow keys are below right shift, and Home, End, etc., are above Backspace, so it's not perfect, but it's better than most...
Most people who develop drivers for linux, are starving student types who can not afford to get new hardware. If you want something to work with linux, make sure it has its own controller, and is dirt cheap.
Otherwise, the people who develop drivers and such, won't be able to afford the hardware in question.
Those MacBooks have great pixel densities but are totally lame on the amount of video ramm behind the display. I want to replace my MacBook pro with the Retina one, I'd gain a large number of pixels for no increase in video ram and go backwards as I can't get a matte display for Retina. Apple dropped the ball here. They're not actually making what high-end users want. I don't care about the price I care about the specs, and apart from pixel density Apple are far far behind Compaq on desktop replacement laptops :( This is a shame as I rather like OS X.
Did love this argument.
"it's all the same hardware, Apple is no different." Yet Apple devices tend to be higher res, thinner, lighter, etc.
iPad Vs Surface is a good example. If everyone has access to the same technology then why is the Surface thicker, heavier, no 3G/4G, lower battery life, and a much lower resolution screen (MS specifically said a retina quality display would be too difficult to do due to memory bandwidth issues - tell that one to Apple).
That's just one example but it holds true when comparing MacBook Pros, iMacs, whatever.
You can keep saying its all the same, but it's just not.
- "Scientia non habet inimicum nisp ignorantem"
The surface is THINNER not thicket, seems to have better build quality and weighs approximately the same as an Ipad, the ipad does have a better screen though. It also comes with a keyboard and useful ports
1080p isn't as cool as 4k or 2500xwhatever, but it's a huge leap over 1380x768. Let's get all laptops to 1080p first, since it's less tech- and $- intensive
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
Yes, this is an absolute pain for games. Then again, laptops shouldn't be used for games ;). The problem is that in my case the laptop was the main computer for several years.
Like someone said about leaking tablet resolution "improvements" back into the PC world, fullsize keyboards have been playing with stupid layout ideas and removing keys for a decade. Geeky Mac switchers must have a rite of passage with a google search when first trying to printscreen, especially while running Windows. HP keyboards move Insert / Home / End / Page up and Page down. Laptop or not, playing with our non-querty row is a problem for flight simulators MMO's and simple emulators. My laptop vertically lists Delete / Home / Pg-up / Pg-dn/ End in the last row, which is a pain for web browsing without some head lamp on.
The industry ran out of new cool things to design to differentiate product. They can't reinvent the modern equivalent of "they're all plain ol' beige, so let's ship it in black!". Now they bring chiclet keyboards and tons of incompatible layouts.
Someone here yesterday wanted death on whoever decided that for Android's software keyboards (virtually non-optional) ENTER should sit right above BACKSPACE... presumably from logins or webforms getting posted "early" EXACTLY as we've located an error that needs backspacing to fix.
ENTER should sit right above BACKSPACE
Oops. Said that backwards.
-vlueboy
hate to break it to ya man but, the surface is slightly thinner, has same battery life, weight the surface is ever so slightly heavier (not an amount you could notice). yes it has lower res screen and no 3g/4g (not that apple has 4g anywhere much either) but they more than make up for that with features that the ipad doesn't have, like office, a proper keyboard, ports that are actually usable and better hardware quality.
I don't have any evidence, but I highly doubt that.
After iPhone 4 came out in 2010, it no longer took a genius to guess that the iPad would also get the Retina treatment sooner or later--I remember voices of disappointment when iPad 2 showed up without one in 2011. Besides, the Retina iPad only went on sale in March of this year. I very much doubt that Google could have started planning the Nexus 10 after March and have it in mass manufacturing in November. Product development using new parts (like the 2560x1600 panel) takes time.
So because Linux is such a success on laptops we should listen to someone who's sole claim to fame is he bundled 3 lines of his own code with 300,000 lines of other people's code and named the whole lot after himself?
I don't think so.
hey, nice sig, I missed it before. seems a bit apropos here, actually.
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
While we're at it, can we also have our screens matte instead of the glossy crap?
At the point you're displaying 2 A4 pages side by side, in order to be equivalent to the portrait monitor you're going to need twice as many pixals.
Using a 1920x1200 monitor, in portrait you get 1920 pixels of height, allowing a good deal of resolution for the page. 2.3M total pixels.
Rotate it back, and you only have 63% of the vertical resolution, and half the resolution. Oh well, in either case you're probably going to have to sacrifice some pixels in order to maintain correct proportions if that's important. Even if you have a 2560x1600 monitor, you're still only going to have 2M pixels if you're displaying 2 pages.
If you're into serious graphics design where you're looking to spend a few thousand on a ultra-color correct high resolution monitor, odds are you're going to be spending a lot of time wanting to have more resolution on a single page in order to get the final printed product 'just right'.
I don't read AC A human right
There is already machines like the ASUS UX21A, which is an ultrabook that packs 1920x1080 in 11.6". However using today's OSes and apps (DPI scaling problems) I would imagine using something like that could be still quite painful.
I think you're missing his point. He's not quite satisfied with 0-9, he wants a 10 key as well... ;)
Screw that! I want one that goes up to 11!
And that has a "more cowbell" key as well!
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
"Except there is NOWHERE for my money to go. I can't vote with my wallet, because every vendor makes the exact same fucking thing, without the slightest variation. This a total failure of the free market."
In other words, it's just like nowadays everybody has been forced into carrying the same stuff as Wal-Mart does, but you've a slightly lower chance of getting trapped behind a herd of fat families blocking the aisles in Target or K-Mart.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Widescreen is definitely better when you have a single display since you can have side-by-side documents. It also helps make the task bar wider when you have lots of windows open, or more tabs in your browser etc. All TV and movies are widescreen now too.
Widescreen is also handy on airplanes where the guy in front reclines his seat, leaving you with little vertical space above your tray to put the screen upright. I have a 1680x1200 13" Panasonic Let's Note that is 4:3 and quickly discovered this when the guy sat next to me opened his widescreen 13" MacBook easily in a way I couldn't.
I'd rather have good sized keys than a full layout on a laptop.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Well, since 17" laptops no longer have higher resolutions than 1080p, why not just go with a 15.6" device with a 1080p screen? I'm typing this on a Thinkpad T520 right now, which is more or less what you describe, and has a very standard keyboard as far as laptop keyboards go. Separately grouped F1-F12 keys, grouped Home/End/PgUp/PgDn block and most important: Fully centered due to the lack of a num-block.
https://www.google.com/search?q=thinkpad+t520&hl=de&safe=off&client=firefox-beta&hs=hus&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=0kiSUKjiDsbLhAeltIHYDw&ved=0CGUQsAQ&biw=1002&bih=1025&sei=1kiSUP6eOM7Iswbm2YCYBA
The only thing that's missing is the higher-res screen - 2560x1600 on 15.6" at 100% (96DPI) scaling would be AWESOME...
there is something very wrong with the world.
No shit, Sherlock!
I for one am waiting for the day that Linus and all kernel lieutenants get an MBPro, and suddenly support for those laptops gets decent. Heck, event with the latest Ubuntu, the experience is so far from smooth that it takes me back to the nineties. Except that now I'm older and fiddling around with kernel boot options and config scripts I no more call "fun".
Thank you, this is about the best idea I've heard in the past 10 years...
I just hope somebody picks it up...
http://www.microcenter.com/product/384780/EQ276W_27_IPS_LED_Monitor Only $399. If you are worried about the brand, get a 3 year warranty for ~$60, or buy the HP for $699. I have certainly enjoyed the upgrade.
DEY TUK ERR SCREENS!!!
You know what drives changes like this. People showing they will pay a premium to have it.
The product has to exist first. I'd gladly pay the price of a standard laptop plus the price of one of these high-res tablets to get the two pieces of hardwaree married (assuming there's linux driver support), and that's a price premium in itself. Except it has to be made by anybody other than Apple - I can't support company that's aggressively using the courts to make my industry worse. OK, not HP either, they have a 24% failure rate, but that leaves a dozen other manufacturers.
But ... so far as I can tell it doesn't exist. My laptop just crapped out so I'll probably get a $500 refurb with a crummy screen, hoping that when that one dies this product will exist. Maybe the tablet market can drive it into being a commodity part, the way HDTV ruined computer displays.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
The product has to exist first. I'd gladly pay the price of a standard laptop plus the price of one of these high-res tablets to get the two pieces of hardwaree married (assuming there's linux driver support), and that's a price premium in itself. Except it has to be made by anybody other than Apple - I can't support company that's aggressively using the courts to make my industry worse. OK, not HP either, they have a 24% failure rate, but that leaves a dozen other manufacturers.
But ... so far as I can tell it doesn't exist. My laptop just crapped out so I'll probably get a $500 refurb with a crummy screen, hoping that when that one dies this product will exist. Maybe the tablet market can drive it into being a commodity part, the way HDTV ruined computer displays.
Yes. I am sure there are companies that just can't wait to service it Anti-Apple, Anti-HP, Linux Users, who buy cheap refurbs, but assure us they are willing to spend big bucks if only someone that isn't one of the above companies would ship such a product complete with proper Linux drivers. That market must contain literally Dozens of potential sales.
Keep waiting, I am sure they can't resist that market potential much longer.
Except there is NOWHERE for my money to go. I can't vote with my wallet, because every vendor makes the exact same fucking thing, without the slightest variation. This a total failure of the free market.
Uh... this isn't a failure of the free market, this is more that the free market doesn't find serving your demands to be worthwhile. Sorry.
No, 720p is 720 rows with a 16:9 aspect ratio. A common aspect ratio for laptops is 16:10, which gives you 1280x768.
Sounds like the hardware support issues Linux has faced from the beginning, and somehow it happened.
i'd be happy with just WUXGA at 15", like they had back in '05.
Don't get me wrong, I like high resolutions, but to be honest for my laptop I would much rather an EInk display. I know it won't be able to do video, but at least I could then use my laptop outdoors, by the beach, on my hammock... Talk about programmer job satisfaction going up... Longer battery life to boot, woot!
Hmm, the humour and sarcasm seem to have been be lost on you.
what i don't understand is why video games running at 1080p
don't look the same like movies running on 1080p?
MOAR pixels will solve that problem?
Linux doesn't play nicely with the Retina display :)
Hey everyone, the reason for this is real simple. LVDS (Low Voltage Differential Signaling) is limited to a maximum resolution of 1400 × 1050 @ 60Hz. Almost all of the laptop panels today interface with the chipset (i.g. Intel 4500MHD) using LVDS. It saves cost, the fact of the matter is that basically all LCD panels made today are driven using LVDS circuitry. HDMI, DVI, RGB, Component , S-Video, RCA, or whatever are merely device to device interconnects. Even TV's are driven internally using LVDS, it's just that they only need to run at 1080p @ 30 Hz; Linus is effectively asking for 1600p @ 60 Hz. That's well beyond the capabilities of an off the shelf commodity LVDS panel.
Manufactures are listening Linus, and have created a new standard called Embedded DisplayPort (eDB). This is what's driving the panel in the new MacBook Pro actually, and now that Intel's new chipset lines support this technology we simply have to wait for economies of scale to bring the prices down on eDB panels. I'll bet at least half the new laptops sold with have eDB panels in them by this time next year... This would really make retailers happy for Christmas shopping.
Linus, I cannot disagree with you at all. Standards should improve, not regress. However I have to put forward the suggestion that this is driven by the interests of computer makers, and not whats best for software makers such as yourself, nor anything to do with what consumers of such a market want. So, like the reasons to create an open-sourced operating system, the reasons for the consumer base to design and build its own hardware has never been stronger. I would encourage anyone reading this, and anyone in the linux environment of organizations, to get to work on making what has been discussed here a reality. Looking up at the discussions of data rates for resolutions such as this, can I suggest small microprocessors at either end of the links to give compression and decompression support to the display links? It can help, and latency shouldn't be a huge issue.
Sadly, a Libertarian cannot force his views on another, and freedom cannot spread as does the cancer known as religion.
Indeed, it does seem silly that the laptop has enough ram and cpu to work on photographic pieces but here's no chance of appreciating them properly. On the other hand, my laptop was given to me so can't complain too much...
Linus already uses a MacBook Air as his laptop. A Retina MBP 13" isn't much different in terms of the hardware except that it has a 2560x1600 display.
I'm old enough that I can't even do hipster fashion ironically
But now you're old enough you can do ironic ironically.
The real problem is these displays he wants at 11" or 13" just don't exist. Apple are using them, sure, but Apple has been paying for their development and get first dibs on these kinds of displays. Asus and other EMS/CMS have access to them because they build things for Apple (and have a line to the original supplier), but that doesn't mean they can order them in quantity.
If we want to see these displays in products they need to be easily available without pulling a favor or being a large contract manufacturer, and without playing a waiting game or price war with Apple.
And then, we have to deal with Linux being a world full of geeks who love to love black-on-charcoal stereo-equipment themes (because having big, bright buttons and text is "Fisher Price" and not mature enough for them..) and 8 pixel high fonts to fit as much text on their displays as possible. Actually having a Linux desktop that reacts to high DPI displays properly and uses the correct font scaling and application scaling is far, far off and would require significant numbers of developers putting Linux on those devices to test it before anyone sees the benefits..
I agree with Linus, high DPI displays SHOULD be standard, but we're going to have to wait a bit..
Matt Sealey
Product Development Analyst
Genesi USA, Inc.
...and freely distributed like Linux. Monitors for the world!!
all laptops should have touch screen as well !
I agree, and the fact that I'm an AC myself means that Obfuscant will probably see this as a conspiracy too, rather than actually get his head out of his rear end.
But maybe we are the same people. Gotta be.
I wouldn't agree that 2560x1600 should be the standard. Ok maybe a high end standard. and I would sure agree that this and similar resolutions should be much more easily available. For example mid/high end pc's should have similiar resolutions at least as an option. But OS's should improve a lot to use all the resolution without making things too small and so do applications which is not truth with many applications as someone pointed out that even Photoshop isn't. And with bigger resolutions thare's an increase of power consumption when rendering 2d/3d efffects as the graphics cards will need to have more memory and use more resources.wich is not desireable in a laptop either (and mobile graphics are still far from desktop graphics not to mention they consume lots of power).The truth is that many people buy notebooks thinking on being able to run 3d games and on a higher resolution screen they have to lower resolution which will be worse than having a lower res 1366x768 screen running at full resolution. And of course 720p and 1080p resolution is better for movies because everything is allways better without upscaling. In the case of windows pc's more sometimes is less. It all depends on what you use the pc for. But again for some types of working it's much more interesting to have a high resolution display but even there it makes a lot of sense to be able to plug a external monitor.I think video cards should allow for bigger resolution external displays. I think the big limitation in here are the graphics cards of notebooks.
They haven't "caught up" with the bandwidth requirements because they've been too busy pushing DRM and "customer frustration" down your throat.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
its a pitty LCDs arent a standard connector, or are they, can you swap a good old lcd into a new laptop?
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Don't forget portrait mode with a geometrically central mounting point for the display on a telescopic holder, flipback convertible into a tablet with acoustic standing wave Gorilla glass touchscreen, firewire or PoE charging, I don't know what SFP is, but Thunderbolt is more general. 4k display is overkill, be sure to use sequential colour generation LCoS with a fresnel lens - it's easy to construct a transflective configuration with complete internal reflection. Oh, and a big fucking antenna, fit for capturing satelite transmissions, just use half he screen case for a microsrip array. *fap* *fap*
I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
Don't look now, but your ignorance is showing.
I used to regularly spend $3K on Macbook Pros before Apple went corporately insane (and ran linux on them). If you knew what you were talking about you'd be familiar with the formerly large effort to support linux on Apple laptops. It was even a Fedora priority at one point.
Now I'm hard-pressed to find a machine that offers reasonable specs, so the desire to spend much money is lacking. You'll see people here posting about the old Dells with high-res screens that they paid just as much for, and all that was when the market was 1/10th its current size. Lenovo for one makes Linux support available on at least most of its models. That's just because they like to waste money, I'm sure.
And maybe Linus is just out of touch with the linux userbase. That could be ... nah, he's not.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I think the problem is that to the average consumer, technical specs like "1920x1200 resolution" are meaningless. Other products have been dumbed down too. Instead of being impressed that a pair of speakers has flat frequency response up to 22kHz, the dumbed-down consumer looks for "ooh, that thingie looks kewl and it has a dock so i think it'll play music from my ipod." And instead of being impressed by a politician who actually grasps the implications of our entitlement programs having $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities, they vote for... you get the idea.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Wouldn't it be nice if pivoting displays had caught on more? Landscape orientation is perfect for watching videos, then rotate it 90 degrees and it's the perfect aspect ratio for word processing/coding.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
...because some windows user starts complaining that he can't read the text on the display anymore.
Got a 27" 2560x1440 myself a few months ago. Initially planned to buy a 24", but there's not a single one with a higher resolution than this for any real work unsuitable FullHD. 1080 pixels height is simply not enough (At least for the 21st century), would even be a downgrade from my previous 20" 1600x1200 screen. Usable screens start at 27" again, still shitty 16:9 but at least enough vertical resolution to work with. And the reviews for this display, a Samsung SyncMaster SA850, were filled with comments of windows users that have never heard of increasing their font size (Wouldn't care about them if they wouldn't tend to be that f***ing stupid and the majority at the same time).
Damnit. I have mod points, but I've already posted in this thread.
+1 Bouhahahahaha