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French Police Unsure Which Twin To Charge In Sexual Assaults
An anonymous reader writes "In a real life Prisoner's Dilemma taking place in the French city of Marseille, twin brothers have been arrested for a string of sexual assaults. While say they are sure that one of them committed the crimes (corroborated by a standard DNA test), police were told that it would cost upwards of €1m euros (£850,000, $1.3m USD) to distinguish between them using DNA evidence."
"Prisoner's Dilemma" does not just mean "a dilemma involving prisoners"
...both! Now that would be money well spent!
Take the tests and pay whatever the costs are.
After the results are in slap the bill on the twin that did not rat on his brother.
Justice would demand they spend the money to be sure.
Failing that, charge neither.
Is your freedom worth $1 million? Is someone else's?
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to get a confession by letting them know they had spent the money and proved it was (one or the other) them and then offer a deal for a plea , and a confession that matches the evidence? Maybe I am missing something. Of course they could just spend the money, it's not like 1mil is some huge sum in the scheme of things.
And to think, they could have committed murder and been in the same situation. It's like a stay out of jail free card! I wonder how many copycats this will give ideas to. You're going to see twin hitmen, serial killlers, bank robbers, etc. Congress will have to pass a law that in the case of a twin committing a crime, both must do the time.
I have always wondered what would happen when this type of suspect turned up.(suspect having an identical twin)
Every set of identical twins I have known, has deliberately used the 'identity confusion' at some point.
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If AC actually bothered to read the definition of the prisoner's dilemma he would have determined that this is not the same situation. Sounds good, but wrong. You have two individuals, both know who the guilty party is. The best strategy for each to play is to proclaim their innocence.
The guillotine, you mean...
Prisoner's Dilemma?
Nah, the good answer each of them have to speak out is:
"I'm sure my brother will tell you he knows I haven't done anything I'm charged with".
Then, smile :-)
Sincerely,
Franz Rogar
Sounds like a perfect opportunity for a DNA identification company to get free PR for their services.
Is most of the cost from the machine? Or the scientists operating it and performing all of the tests?
Sometimes justice is expensive; and sometimes it makes mistakes - but if you can get a definitive answer from a reliable, available test; do it.
Perhaps then bill each of them for half the cost, for not cooperating.
Just charge the one with the goatee.
Mother, do you think they'll like this sig?
Will someone with a better understanding of genetics please explain how a genetic test is even possible?
My understanding is that identical twins -- arising from the same zygote -- are genetically identical. Not just "pretty much identical" as the article states.
What possible "genetic test" is being proposed that could differentiate between the brothers? Is the town being scammed?
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How exactly is the innocent one proclaiming his innocence obstructing justice?
captcha: unproven
While '1 million euros' is a big scary number(and certainly higher than evidence handling for more prosaic cases), it isn't exactly free to have a bunch of cops go around swabbing at evidence, a judge, some lawyers, a jury, etc. Processing a case, especially a serious criminal case, just isn't inexpensive. Given the existing acceptance of the relatively high cost of justice, it seems strange to wring hands about an abnormally high cost cropping up in an abnormal case.
Even if justice didn't demand it, it seems like it would be trivially sensible to just quietly pay what it costs to get the DNA analyzed properly, if only to deter others from trying to get cute.
Wow, logic fail. I hope I never see you in a jury...
Congratulations, you are an insufferable, unimaginative prick. Go and stick your hands in a blender.
Saw this on an episode of Law & Order Special Victims Unit.
And they say television isn't educational...
Be seeing you...
Yes, there are a lot of issues and flaws with it, but it's one option. Another would be to come up with a huge list of possible things that only the criminal would know based on the crimes and quiz them and their whereabouts at the time. Yes, you can lie, but it will be very difficult to come up with enough lies until there is a flaw. One twin may actually have a legitimate alibi (receipt) at the time of the sexual assault with verifiable proof (security cam or employee). If one is given enough time, I bet you can come up with quite a few ways to determine the culprit. You just need enough puzzle pieces to fit together that count as proof enough. If both are guilty, then good, else it's a horrible injustice to a free man. At least we now know that someone actually does have an "evil twin."
The G
I am not a French Lawyer. Here in the USA lying about the evidence would not be coercion. Police are allowed to lie to the suspect, as long as real evidence goes to court. Coercion is a specific threat or harm, like starving the person for days.
How is claiming you didn't commit a crime when you didn't commit a crime illegal?
And what value is an accusation from someone that neither witnessed the crime, nor has even any hearsay about it?
Unless you mean the one that did commit the crime is obstructing justice. in that case, yup, you can tack that on to his charges. Unless he decided to invoke his right to remain silent or his right not to incriminate himself (pretty sure France has those), in that case... ?
Face it, your idea just sucks.
only crimes where DNA is left in way that can be used.
hard to have that happen with a gun or robing a bank.
The article has no details, if they both claimed to be innocent( or that the other one did it) then there would only be the guilty one. What more can the innocent one (assuming they weren't both involved) do than claim their innocence?
"Police were told that it would cost upwards of €1m euros (£850,000, $1.3m USD) to distinguish between them using DNA evidence."
Yeah. So? What's the alternative, lock the wrong one or both of them up because "it's cheaper"...???
... and that's why those of us in civilised countries consider the US to have a similar legal system to the brutal Sharia law of countries like Afghanistan, Somalia and Mali, among others.
Police time + court time + prison time = $$$. I just did a quick check in Norway and at least here it'd equal the cost of 13-14 years of prison time. Sounds totally reasonable to me to get a serial rapist behind bars, I'm guess they're just trying to make the twins realize the futility of their position or to make the government step in with extra money to fund this so it doesn't come out of the local budget. I'd be extremely surprised if they're let go with the message that we couldn't afford to figure out which of you was guilty. In particular because there's nothing stopping them from continuing to assault women. But I'm guessing it's quite possible that they're both in on it and so neither would like the police to solve the case.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
One is guilty, the other is accessory. Both are obstructing justice.
[citation needed]
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
I'm in Canada, and the rules may be different but since they have DNA that narrows down to these twins, they are suspects.
Since they are suspects in fairly serious crime, interrogation amd a polygraph would be the simplest amd probably cheapest route at this point.
Again, laws may be different over there.
Wait...does this mean my plan to cause another Big Bang using a giant cannon isn't going to work?!
Big apple, new Yorik, undig it, something's unrotting in Edenmark.
Here in the Red States of America the prosecution is allowed to specifically threaten you with any ridiculous charges they want to get you to accept a plea bargain. Somehow coercion is allowed for both the police and the prosecution.
Let's say Twin A did it.
You presume that Twin B has proof of either their own innocence, or Twin A's guilt.
If Twin B does not, saying "it wasn't me" is not obstructing justice - it's telling the truth, even if Twin A tells a lie when saying the same thing.
Saying "It was him!", similarly, is of no help.
A completely dissimilar, and yet similar, situation occurred in NL a good while back; 'Nijmeegse Scooterzaak' Two kids on a moped, on the run from police, fatal accident. The prosecutor could not prove which of the two was the one operating the vehicle (each said it was the other). As a result, neither could be charged for anything too meaningful.
A lot of people did say "just charge them both, and find them both guilty", but there were quite a few people who said that if we, as a society, go down that road, that would be a terrible mistake to make - considering you are then willingly and knowingly finding an innocent person guilty; even if you don't know which of the two (or more) is the innocent one; also the opinion of the court that reluctantly let them off the hook for the greater charges.
The prosecutor has decided to appeal, though, which would land the case in something of an equivalent to a U.S. Supreme Court. I have no idea when the case is supposed to be heard, however.
It could very well be that both are guilty.
Take the identical twins out of it for a minute and just assume we have a case where there are only 2 valid suspects. It comes down to simple detective work, in this case mostly checking alilbis.
Now, I'm assuming the french police didn't forget how to do detective work when DNA came along, so the most likely issue is they are cooperating with each other either saying "I was alone" or "I was with my brother".
I suppose though its possible 1 twin really was alone and the other was comitting the crimes, which gets you back to square one.
From the article:
The 24-year-old unemployed delivery drivers, named locally as Elwin and Yohan, were placed under investigation on Friday.
Are they now unemployed or are they delivery drivers? And how likely is it that two twins have the "same job"?
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
This is a limitation in the justice system to prove guilt.
In most logical nations both would have to be released.
You dont punish the crime of rape with the crime of wrongful imprisonment.
Whereas in the good, honest Blue States of America, we just threaten hackers for political gain until they commit suicide. Much less expensive.
Why not use fingerprint evidence (if there is some).
The justice system shouldn't be haggling over price.
They have suspects they are sure that did it. They have a method of determining which one, but they are dicking around because of cost?
Unacceptable.
I'd donate money to put a rapist in jail.
Can someone please explain why a more sensitive DNA test costs 1.5 million? I'm not sure I'm buying this.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Is a million dollars a lot of money for a murder trial?
Prosecuting a murder case can easily cost more than a million dollars - and that's not even including the public defender's costs if defendant doesn't pay for his own defense.
So instead of using the magic that is DNA they might have to actually really do some police work? 6 attacks and both have airtight alibis? No other evidence at all except eye witnesses who cannot tell them apart? Honestly this simply sounds like they need to look harder and if that doesn't work then fine take the budget hit and do the test. Heck, are they sure no lab would donate some effort towards this? Cost shouldn't be what stops the conviction or sure as hell it will give other's ideas.
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Pay you cheapskates. It's worth it.
I happened in Berlin: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/a-perfect-crime-twins-suspected-in-spectacular-jewelry-heist-set-free-a-614245.html
I think there have been other occasions too.
Do the test and have the guilty guy pay the bill.
And then judge specifically asks you if you have been coerced or promised anything and you say 'no, your honor' and everyone in the room winks at each other.
Good-bye
Would it be possible to use the evidence to accuse both of them since they both fit the description of the culprit. If they have evidence, but don't know which one did it, then aren't BOTH prime suspects?
Isn't that a pretty likely situation? The chances of a younger, unattached person being alone when not at work are fairly good, even better at night when they're asleep. Heck, the 'evil' twin probably knows a lot about 'good' twin's schedule, and could just plan accordingly.
$1.3M USD is exorbitant. There are labs that will run a sample on an Affy Genome-Wide SNP array for $230. While I can't guarantee that it will differentiate the two samples, the odds are actually pretty good (there's nearly a million SNPs on the array, and nearly a million copy number probes). As a matter of fact, there are several papers comparing twins (and finding differences) using this method. For example: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0017125 and http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/content/115/17/3553.full.pdf -- and an older version of the array http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2893889/
TL;DR - for less than $700 they could run a test that would be able to tell which twin matches their evidence (plus $230 for each additional piece of evidence tested).
Throw them both in jail until one confesses. If they want to act like children they can be treated like children..
Ridiculous.
The summary makes us think that one is guilty based on one victim's identification and the less-than precise DNA test. The problem with the current DNA test is that it does have false positives (where the test would conclude the match, but it would be the wrong person). Imagine if none of them committed the crime and the DNA test in this case has the false positive. What do the twins have to do?
Absolutely the police has to do the complete DNA test. Maybe they are afraid that it will show that neither is guilty?
There's no such thing as "illegal download"
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It's not a first, other twins were prosecuted in Marseille on the basis of such expensive analysis : Marc and Dominique Pantalacci from Corsica, but in that case it was a totally different crime. The expense will be made. If not we cannot prove that any of them is guilty so they are innocent and free to go.
It's not as though it's unheard of for identical twins to have similar hobbies...
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This is why those of us the US remember that our ancestors proved democracy is possible and led the way for freedom.
Sure, some aspects of your law and society are better, but it seriously pisses me off when people like you act as though we have a military dictatorship. (Especially while flaunting how your government has taken away certain freedoms in the name of "fairness".) I have more freedoms than some of you ever will.
All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
I believe that number is nonsense. A 400nt sequencing is a Sanger sequencing and only performed for short pieces, it is pretty expensive per base, but as there are only a few bases ... a Sanger run is still only between $3-5. But real full genome sequencing is not done by Sanger method but by pyro/454/Solexa and these are very very cheap per base. A full genome sequencing to catch identical-twin mutations (people never are truly identical) is by far not 1 million, they are maybe in the $100.000 if done commercially today - though companies are very close to the 1-genome-for-$1000-goal. And if the law approaches one of these companies with that problem ... you bet that would be $1000 or less, for the publicity alone. You just pool samples from different tissues similar to where the original sample was from (semen would be harder I guess, less mutations?) to catch as many sites as possible for one of the people, run high read numbers for a full genome sequencing and compare it with the sample.
The innocent one is not necessarily obstructing justice - if they're both claiming they are innocent, one is lying and one is telling the truth.
The one that's telling the truth, he's not obstructing justice.
Unless he has evidence that the other one did it and he's withholding it or something similar to that.
Both of them proclaiming their innocence however - the one that is telling the truth is not obstructing justice.
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I am now an expert on criminal justice. The crime may have been committed by both. Of course I could be wrong. Oh well, no harm done.
There were previous cases in France and the required sum was spent because if we cannot prove that both of them did it or have reasonnable proof that one of them commited all of the crimes then we have to release them. End of the story.
Give up as soon as it gets hard
In the last few years the cost of this kind of sequencing has plummeted and will continue to do so. As long as it's still within the statue of limitations there, if there is one, in just a handful of years it will cost only a few hundred dollars to sequence both twins and detect all mutation differences between them as well as all epigenetic differences (the methylation that turns genes on and off). So eventually the mounties will get their man.
The answer is obvious, convict the one with the goatee!
if they both committed the crimes?
Just by existing the innocent one is providing a false alibi for the guilty one. A sufficiently creative prosecutor could make an obstruction charge out of that.
Unfortunately, I wouldn't put it past some of our US prosecutors to try that one.
The french are all degenerate perverts. They could have prevented the nazi invasion if their soldiers weren't so busy felching each other.
Tell both of them: One of the assault victims suffers from a nearly always fatal STD. We have an antidote, but the side effects are rather nasty. Now, who wants it?
A little itching powder in the shorts applied in the jail laundry should provide some additional motivation.
Have gnu, will travel.
that is slightly different, because they knew for certain that they were both on the moped there was no doubt that one of them did it and the other knew
unless you can prove that the innocent twin knows the other did it, as in they were both at the scene or similar, they can 't prove whether he won't tell
or is lying
... and that's why those of us in civilised countries...
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the actual facts of the matter are that most of you in civilized countries don't appreciate how your own legal system works.
Not necessarily. One could be guilty and the other completely uninvolved.
Or they could both be guilty.
They both accuse each other...?
There's other evidence that can be collected. Certainly you might be able to collect enough to rule out one of the twins, which leaves the other as the only suspect with matching DNA and no alibi, etc.
Everyone knows twins can magically feel everything the other one does, so it doesn't matter which one "actually" committed sexy crimes... the other got to feel it too, so they are both guilty.
labour costs would be about a million euros. There is pension plays to pay into, overtime, paid vacation, holiday bonus and other various benefits a French government employee enjoys.
Have we forgotten about simple things like, for example, establishing who was where and when? You know, alibis?
If it's a "string" of rapes, surely one of the brothers has an alibi for one of them, at least?
expandfairuse.org
Burn the witch!
like something you would agree with.
Fortunately you sound too stupid to be able to suffer from the cognitive dissonance.
In the "Red States" of America? Last time I checked, it was that exact tactic (threatening someone with ridiculous charges to get them to accept a plea bargain) that may well have caused Aaron Swartz to kill himself. The kicker is that was in a very blue state (Massachusetts) and the prosecution was largely pushed by MIT (hardly a "red" university). Don't be such a regionalist bigot. Police threatening those accused with as many ridiculous charges happens everywhere in the United States, your precious "blue" states included.
I think this would be a reasonable situation to make us question why two people guilty of the same actions receive different punishments because some other event happened that neither had any control over.
Whereas in the good, honest Blue States of America, we just threaten hackers for political gain until they commit suicide. Much less expensive.
Probably somewhat influenced by the fact that the democrat AG only had a 4% lead on the republican candidate in the last election -- must be trying to impress the borderline voters.
Inshallah, you are absolutely right. Police lying to murder and rape suspects is morally and culturally equivalent to culturally sanctioned rape, communal stoning (at least they're well socialized), and honor killings. How silly of us to think otherwise. Allah ackbar!
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People are commenting as if doing some super expensive test is the ONLY WAY for the truth to come out.
Considering that the existing DNA evidence seems to have narrowed down the list of suspects to only two, perhaps the cops could get off their butts and do their jobs like they did in the old days before DNA testing? You know, like check alibis and that sort of thing?
DNA evidence is not the only kind of evidence, and aside from that it is also not infallible.
Those are sequencing cost for SNP which is not like a full DNA sequencing. This is a quick and dirty method which will allow to check some site of change for genome mutation in a gene, but not , say, copy number variation, or other post meiosis change not involving mutation , the one we are speaking here. In addition take into account that the number of machine available in the US and their level/neweness is not the same as for a much smaller country like France (1/5 of USA population), where the crime rate like murder is 1/10 of the one in the USA. The 1 million dollar price tag is valid.
... and that's why those of us in civilised countries consider the US to have a similar legal system to the brutal Sharia law of countries like Afghanistan, Somalia and Mali, among others.
There are those of us in the US who agree that the US legal/penal/justice systems are brutal, regressive, unjust, and counterproductive, and do what we can to change that, but at the same time are opposed by authoritarian-types who claim that various improvements proposed by "bleeding-heart liberals" equate to being "soft on crime." However, my state struck down the judicial death penalty a few years ago and decriminalized marijuana possession last year, so I still have hope that improvements can continue, at least at the state level.
Thank you, Edward Snowden.
"Arguments from authority are worthless." —Carl Sagan
You don't get to be convicted just because you probably committed some of a list of crimes.
So, in France, things are different than in the U.S.?
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
You've got the whole culture of prison rape thing, and you have the highest prison population of any country because your increasingly insane "War on Drugs" means that people get long prison sentences for possessing the kind of amounts of cannabis that the police in other countries (the UK included) wouldn't even bother confiscating (although here depending on how arsey the police officers involved are, they might make you throw it in a bin, and pretend not to notice if you fish it out once they've gone up the street a bit).
You may not have "communal stoning" in the sense that you actually throw rocks at people, but you do have a strong mob mentality and the drive to ruin people's lives over minor infractions. For example, there are people right now in America who are on the sex offender register because they were naked in their own back garden. These people are denied the right to vote, and denied most jobs, simply because *someone* decided to call the police because of something they were doing in private. I think that's pretty close.
Honour killings you *probably* don't have, but you do have a culture where people subscribe to this Roy Rogers fantasy where if they carry a gun and someone tries to mug them, they can just shoot the bad guy's gun right out of his hand and everything will be okay. Police officers who carry guns have to spend a hell of a lot of time on the range practicing, and they probably can't do that. What's the bets that these "guns make us safer" nutcases couldn't even hit their assailant, and end up injuring someone else - or worse?
Some, yes, but compared to the UK and EU you don't.
How's that Data Protection Act coming along? Are companies still allowed to sell all your personal information to anyone who wants it?
Have you figured out how to fix your libel laws yet? Basing the decisions on who can show up with the most money for lawyers, instead of the actual facts seems a bit wonky from here.
I could go on, but I won't. Oh, but before you mention CCTV, American cities have just as many CCTV cameras as anywhere else - but you've got armed police ready and willing to shoot you thrown into the mix too. Last I heard, no-one had ever been shot and killed by a CCTV camera.
I have attended jail in the capacity of the wrongfully convicted.
It sucked
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
Of course they are - because the Bolshevik Broadcasting Corporation won't show a picture of them.
No doubt the victims were WHITE too.
The mind control is working.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
That one really got me, that I wasn't allowed to plead no contest and they forced me to perjure myself, both with the actual guilty plea, and stating I had not been coerced or promised anything. I hate lying, but it got me out of a five year sentence for a crime that never occurred.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
I'm quite sure democracy was proved to be possible a long time before the US was even a thought in someone's mind.
Torture does not work if your goal is truth.
I agree with this in theory.
Pity that most people in the position to torture just do not care. They see it as a quick and easy path.
Torture, physical and mental, is horrible. I can attest that once you have been broken then you are always broken.
Try spending the rest of your life with permanently broken legs except that the breaks are in your mind.
Make it do something good for once.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
It's "A Tale of Two Cities" all over again!
You. Face front!
You. Left face!
Cut the cost.
Back on topic: The one that sleeps better at night is your man, he's been caught.
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
Just ask one of the twins, "Who would your brother say committed the crime?" ;)
This is the best restaurant I ever eat in
Hyperbole much? The police have their job (collection of evidence) and lawyers have theirs (protecting their clients.)
As an aside, Sharia in Mali is limited to family court. Criminal justice is entirely secular. So take advantage of your civilised country and the educational opportunities it offers.
Now if you want to talk death penalty or racial/economic discrimination, you might find some traction there.
Modded as insightful. Maybe this is reddit.
Then charge the guilty one the cost of the test.
Sure, he probably won't be able to pay it off in his lifetime, but A) He knows that he will be caught, and B) It's cheaper for him to confess.
Considering the mileu these rapists usually come from and the religion of the perp they should check what Sharia law has to say about it.
Theoretical methods for distinguishing the DNA of monozygous twins are not established enough to be accepted by a court (at least under US law). If a defendant had the resources to hire the proper experts, he/she would no doubt prevail in excluding such evidence.
What system should replace the USA system of justice that jails more citizens per capita than any other western nation?
Simple: declare to the world that the USA no longer considers itself a "Western" nation and should not be judged by "Western" standards. Problem solved.
Well, in fact you could write a sentence like that, but a reader would stumble about it, like I did. ..." or "the unemployed, former lawyer," or perhaps "the unemployed who used to be a delivery driver" etc.
You rather would write something like "the unemployed culprit, a baker by trait
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
As it turns out the guilty triplet will not be discovered until after both brothers are jailed and the string of crimes continues...
If someone commits suicide over the prospect of 6 months in jail for committing a crime you're guilty of you can't blame the prosecutor. Especially when you deliberately break said law as an act of civil disobedience.
The whole point of civil disobedience is to show the law is unjust by letting "justice" carry itself out.
And that's why those of us in the US don't give a shit about those of you in the Third World.
Pay the money find the guilty and society will thank em.
It's the cost of being fair and it's their job to do so
everyone else can just shut the f--k up and go troll elsewhere!
They better get this sorted out before we start cloning.
They are in fact triplets and the triplet no one heard about, not even these two, actually committed the crime!
Call me if you want to sign a publishing deal.
"If someone commits suicide over the prospect of 6 months in jail for committing a crime you're guilty of you can't blame the prosecutor."
When someone engages in civil disobedience you can't just shift the blame from the people who are committing the injustice onto the protestor simply because he knew they would do something unjust in response to his action. That would render the exercise pointless.
Blame works like a digital file not like a physical pie. One person taking some portion of it doesn't reduce or dilute what is left for everyone else.
Sorry I forget sometimes how successfully the powers at be have managed to partition everyone in the US into two groups targeted at one another while both acting in the interests of the powers at be and spinning their actions as support for one side or the other.
United States of America is a nation not a subset of individual states. By "Red", I was making a pretty obvious association with unjust totalitarian state action such as that typically seen in the USSR and China. If you are among the brainwashed and need it spun to fit with the dogma and spin of your designated political partition feel free to re-read my sentence with red replaced by "Ultra Conservative" or "Commie" as appropriate and fail to see what those of us who have resisted such partitioning might recognize as sad yet hilarious irony.
Switzerland: 722 years and counting.
licet differant, aequabitur
Imagine if one and only one of them is lying. Which one?
If the guilty one is lying, they are both claiming the other one did it.
If the innocent one is lying for the other one, then they both agree that the not guilty one did it!
So, in your theory, the one who says he didn't do it is guilty of rape, and the one who admits he did it is guilty of conspiracy?
A strategy to get them to talk:
Either talk and rat out the rapist brother, or the €1m DNA test is done to confirm the exact perpetrator.
The rapist get time in the big house but the twist is that the innocent brother get fined €1m for obstruction of justice.
Cryonics - Keep cool and carry on.
Coercion is a specific threat or harm, like starving the person for days.
Oddly enough, threatening someone with PMITA prison is not coercion.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
And then judge specifically asks you if you have been coerced or promised anything and you say 'no, your honor' and everyone in the room winks at each other.
God help you if your acting coach (lawyer) forgot to tell you how to answer this question and you accidentally point out the de facto coercion of which you were a victim. Hilarity ensues. Mostly in an off the record sidebar.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Just by existing the innocent one is providing a false alibi for the guilty one. A sufficiently creative prosecutor could make an obstruction charge out of that.
Unfortunately, I wouldn't put it past some of our US prosecutors to try that one.
The unfortunate thing isn't the prosecutors who try it, it's the judges who let them try it.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Connect your brain, clear the word "rape" from your mind, get an account and then get back to /.
If you accept that in the pursuit of criminals you want to punish innocent people too you destroy the reward-punishment equation that makes the social contract work. Why would otherwise law abiding citizens respect the law if they would end punished even if they didn't any crime? Middle east dictators tried that. It didn't work in the long run.
Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
Pay for the test and stick the bill on the criminal.
Inshallah, you are absolutely right. Police lying to murder and rape suspects is morally and culturally equivalent to culturally sanctioned rape, communal stoning (at least they're well socialized), and honor killings. How silly of us to think otherwise. Allah ackbar!
Sarcasm aside, your use of both "inshallah" and "allah ackbar" is incorrect (I was raised as a Muslim until I reached 14-15, and still live in a Muslim country.) Also, a better rendering of those phrases in English (in my opinion) would be "En shaa' allaah" (or "In ...",) meaning "if god wills it" or "god willing", and "allaah-o-akbar" (the 'o' is there because in Arabic, words are almost always strung together with vowels - usually short vowels - that are not usually written down but are generated on the fly by the reader, depending the ending and beginning of the two words involved and their parts in the sentence. The rules involved in this are quite complex and I don't understand them that well to begin with, because I don't speak Arabic.)
By the way, the exact pronunciation of almost everything in Arabic, specially vowels, are radically different depending on a lot of factors, nationality and region that the speaker comes from being one of them. And Arabic is a very nuanced and subtle language; more so than many other languages. However, I believe that common sense dictates that one should use the standard rules-based pronunciation of words when rendering them in another language (e.g. English) in a context that does not need to convey the origin or nationality of the speaker. This is why I think "en shaa' allaah" is more appropriate than "in shaa' allaah". Or "ebn" (meaning "son of") is better than "ibn". Or "Ahmad" (a given male name, among other things) is correct and not "Ahmed". All those incorrect renderings are taking into account local accents (even prevailing accents, but still merely pronunciations.) Think of it are writing "gauge" as "gage" (well, not exactly of course, but I think you get the idea.
Sorry about the rant! Couldn't resist.
Once karma was a number. it had a value between 0 and 50. Every time you got a upvote that number increased. (but not for funny votes). once you had a value above 20 (not sure exact what value) you can post repsonses at +2 instead of +1.
However the karma number was gamed by some people, using it a as a personal score. To fight karma gaming the number was no longer showed, instead it show a textual description of the same fiel.
the upper bound was 50.
They are always saying that ONLY dna proof is not enough to convict someone. This very example proves that dna is not as unique as they are always saying. It is also possible to fake DNA evidence.
However in this case there was video evidence and witness evicence as well, but it has the same problem... too identical.
Actually the logic involvedin 'find them both guilty' in this case is legitimate.
In Canada if a group of people say go rob a bank and one of them ends up shooting the rent-a-cop and killing him everyone can be charged with murder because they were all in on the original crime of robbing the bank.
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+2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
sandwichchchchchc
And in all the countries outside the USA, we see two sides of the same coin.
Fine, name 3 freedoms I don't have that are actually a good thing to have. To help you out a bit I'll let you know I live in a scandinavian nanny state where government controls every aspect of my life ;-)