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Microsoft Confirms Xbox One's Phone Home Requirement, Game Resale Rules
Following the confusion surrounding Microsoft's announcement of the Xbox One, the company has now clarified many of the hot-button issues in a set of posts on their official site. First, they confirmed that the console will need to phone home in order to continue playing games. On your primary console, you'd need to connect to the internet and check in once every 24 hours. They also announced that you'll be able to access and play any of your games by logging in on somebody else's console, but the internet connection will be required every hour to keep playing that way. Other media don't require the connection. Microsoft also explained how game licensing will work. On the upside, anyone using your console will be able to play your games, and you can share your games with up to 10 members of your family for free. The downside is the news about used games; Microsoft says they've "designed Xbox One so game publishers can enable you to trade in your games at participating retailers." The key word there is can, which implies that you can't without the publisher's express permission. Finally, the company made a set of statements about how Kinect's audio and video sensors will collect and share your data. "When Xbox One is on and you're simply having a conversation in your living room, your conversation is not being recorded or uploaded." They also say data gathered during normal use won't leave the console without your explicit permission.
Well that just saved me the equivalent of whatever the new console would cost. Thanks microsoft for making purchasing decisions easier.
So, apparently Microsoft think that they're not selling you games. Given that a similar case was difinitively lost in Germany recently, it'll be interesting to see how this one pans out.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
So, in other words, all of the hyperbole and hand waving from users on forums that was washed aside saying it couldn't possibly be that bad... instead it turns out it's worse.
This article on Penny Arcade Report provides some detail that the OP lacks: http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/microsoft-outlines-their-system-for-used-games-licenses-and-family-sharing
All it takes is a single cracker/hacker and it's gone.
HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
They will buy them as fast as Microsoft can make them. No matter what Microsoft does, people will buy it. Look at Win8 for proof -- it's not selling well, but it's still selling. And both the XBox One and Win8 will be the only game in Microsoft Town soon enough.
blah
Well I guess I am getting a PS4. That was an easy decision.
I know everyone is going to focus on the 24 hour / 1 hour network ping and that is fair. But there are some really nice aspects to this for some people. Being able to share your games with friends and family (up to 10) is pretty awesome and in no way possible for normal people today. I haven't had an internet outage last longer than 1 hour in years, so unless I get all tinfoil hat about secret agents watching me play games this really isn't a concern for me.
What? They cleared it all up. The always on requirements and the used game resale options are in the hands of the game developers giveing MS all the plausible deniability that they need.
The fact you can only "give away" a game once sucks, and I'm sure this is going to be used as a model for the "we allow used game sales"* claims from the developers.
* it can be sold once ... with limited functionality.
I love that part. You mean I can still watch TV without "checking in", just as I could if I hadn't bought the stupid fucking box in the first place?
Someone you trust is one of us.
Seriously, the need to phone home once/day is a deal breaker. Not being able to take a game over to a friends place without signing into my account is a deal breaker. Telling me how I can sell or giveaway my used games is a deal breaker.
There's nothing about this that I'm interested in. I don't play games online, my XBox isn't connected to a network because they started putting ads into the games, and I refuse to give them a channel for it.
So, my single purchase (or non-purchase) is insignificant, and Microsoft won't care. But of the people I know who own an XBox, pretty much all of them have said they don't want this either.
There's nothing about this new platform that sounds good for the consumer, and it certainly doesn't leave them much choice.
So whatever the first next-generation console is which can be ran entirely offline without any network connection over its lifetime stands a pretty good chance of getting bought. But Microsoft can eat shit if they think I'll pay them for the privilege of owning one of these (which I'm sure the EULA says we don't own anyway).
Either I and people like myself will pretty much be irrelevant, which is fine, or there's going to be a huge consumer backlash against this, and Microsoft is going to find themselves holding the bag on a gaming platform nobody wants.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
I owned a XBOX 1 and Xbox 360. I liked them better then Sony/Nintendo offerings. But this whole used game thing along with phone home. I haven't had my 360 plugged into the internet for 8 months now. I play most console games offline. If I want to play online with friends, that's what my PC is for.
So I had bought 3 xbox 360's, I won't be buying 1 One.
...just like I'm sure the Obama Administration would never obtain the phone and email records for every American!
What?
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)
http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
the act of pedaling Redmond into the earth takes careful planning. Some very important people have to get up very early in the morning and make some very poor decisions. if the selling points are 'only every hour' connections and 'wont record your private conversations' then id hate to see the downsides of the product.
Good people go to bed earlier.
When Xbox One is on and you're simply having a conversation in your living room, your conversation is not being recorded or uploaded.
Until Microsoft gets the same treatment executive order that Verizon got... Remember that the console has to send a transcript of what it has heard back home every 24 hours or it stops playing games (but continues to record?)
what is the time out for steam?
Think about what happens after this generation is over, in 10-15 years. Eventually, the XBO servers will be taken down, and none of the games will work.
It won't be like you pulling out your Dreamcast or SNES to relive fond gaming memories--this literally won't be an option. Now starts the time when gaming history eventually fades into nothing.
Don't get me wrong, any disc based game eventually will be in the same boat--as these discs will eventually decay. Whereas cartridge based game systems may work, no problem, in 100 years or more if kept in a dry place.
So you basically forgot all the crap Sony has pulled out over the years... (e.g. rootkits). At least Microsoft is being honest about it.
As someone else said, the solution is to forgo both PS and Xbox consoles.
> the used game resale options are in the hands of the game developers
Which is funny because were I live it's in the hand of the law. The law that says "I can resell my own games."
I don't see why people are so willing to spend that kind of money to get screwed over.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
This really sucks for those who go to places with lack of communication infrastructure. e.g. military, rural areas with electricity but no internet backbone. Obviously they are not the "intended" audience.
Beware of those who profit off the docile and persecute the unbelievers.
"When Xbox One is on and you're simply having a conversation in your living room, your conversation is not being recorded or uploaded." They also say data gathered during normal use won't leave the console without your explicit permission"
Except of course when a secret court grants the NSA permission to compel Microsoft to activate the video and audio sensors to conduct illegal suspicionless spying on American citizens.
I just realized another thing. The only time I play on a console is when the internet is down in my area for my PC MMO games. Guess I'm not the intended audience either.
Beware of those who profit off the docile and persecute the unbelievers.
It's been fun, Xbox, but this is where we part ways. None of these things are technically even huge issues for me- I have a stable internet connection and wouldn't want to bring the console to a cabin or anything. I never sell my games, since I like collecting them- and hell, I'm sure that in 15 years when they take the servers down they'll probably just gut the DRM or lock the games to a specific console and remove the online requirement or do SOMETHING to make sure our games don't become fancy, expensive coasters.
But it's a matter of principle. I don't want a console that treats me like I'm a thief, needing to check up on me once a day to make sure I'm not smoking pot or something. If I fall on hard times and need to sell somethings to get by, I want to know that for the 60 dollar game I bought that there's an option to do so and potentially feed myself for a week. I don't want to worry what will happen to my favorite titles in fifteen years, if I'll be able to play them- that's nothing someone SHOULD have to worry about (And honestly I still prefer Halo 2 to any of the later games anyway...)
I hope the generation that follows this learns from the mistakes being made here. Until then, I'll see you on the PC/Wii U.
Cause you take One look at it then turn around 360 degrees and walk away.
This is my sig. Its pathetic.
Believing that the issue no longer exists because one person cracks the first implementation is foolhardy at best, and idiotic at worst.
All it takes is for MS to bump the minimum software version required for new games, or add a critical new feature that everyone wants and suddenly you need to updated, and get into the never ending war of jailbreaking and patching. By buying a console with the expectation of it being regularly jailbroken, all you guarantee is that you end up unable to keep up with the latest software update, and hence the latest games.
They also have a "We may also cease to offer certain services or products for similar reasons." clause. So even if you like a feature (like sharing a game with up to 10 family members), you might find that feature suddenly removed or altered in such a way as to make it useless.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
I think the bigger issue missed here is that rentals are simply no longer possible with Xbox One.
Microsoft has killed the game rental market in one fell swoop.
Personally, I think this is a dumb move... I've bought many games after trying them out as rentals; I doubt I am alone with that practice. That is a lot of potential marketing tossed down the toilet.
Even if the used game market survives (though I doubt it will ever be a factor again), the rental market is gone, gone,gone.
What if I get banned from Xbox Live? Does this 24-hour check-in fail? Am I no longer allowed to play my single player games?
So no point in taking the console on vacation if you have no internet, also if you're internet is down for more than 24hrs you're screwed. The 10 person limit on playing your own games is laughable. No thanks M$, I'd would actually like to control the things I own.
"When Xbox One is on and you're simply having a conversation in your living room, your conversation is not being recorded or uploaded."
Considering the stories about the NSA datamining in both the telecom and computing services industries, I have two words to say:
"Likely story."
It will be turned on to record, to find "terrorists."
This gets a big "nope."
http://www.humorgas.com/image/1359731250348625995.JPG
--
BMO
Just like publishers of e-books CAN allow you to lend out a kindle-book to someone.
They don't though.
Granted, I haven't bought many kindle books, but as far as I can see none of my books are lendable.
Harald
for the longest time xbox live was hands above the playstation network and wiichannel. that has changed over they years but for under 50 bucks a year (coupon codes are or were easy to get) i didnt find it to be unreasonable. The new stuff with this new console is a total deal breaker however.
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
What exactly does the always-on (okay, "on at least once every 24 hours") requirement serve?
I doubt it's for checking game licensing issues. That is better done when the game is actually launched (and probably will be anyway). It's stupid otherwise; you slot in a CD for a game your buddy owns and a day later it informs you that there is a licensing issue (or alternately, if the default is "always deny", you buy a game and you aren't allowed to play until the next 24 hour check-in)? So it's not about the games.
Anti-hack checks to ensure you haven't rooted your own hardware. It could compare the OS signature to some secure key on its servers. But that hardly seems workable; after all, if (when) the XBoxOne is hacked, that will be surely the first thing that is disabled.
Advertising perhaps; after all, the recent Dashboard upgrades have focused on putting more and more advertisements on your screen. Microsoft is surely going to continue in this direction with its newest console. But does that really require an always-on connection?
Maybe it's for uploading game or network metrics (or NSA monitoring, for the paranoid). But surely this is not such a necessary thing as to upset their customers to such a degree.
So, honestly, what makes this "always on" requirement so important that Microsoft is willing to risk sales over its inclusion? Why (aside from the boneheaded stubbornness that prevents them from backing down on any of their dumb decisions like the Ribbon or Metro) does Microsoft feel this is something they /have/ to foist on the public? Better to make the console work like the 360; it will use a network connection if it finds one but otherwise it is not a requirement for operation (at least, not for the console; games may still require an internet connection to license, but we already see that with current games).
I guess it depends on whether you owned the game in the first place. for instance, Adobe's licensing makes it clear that you don't own the software that you bought, you just own a license to use it. If game developers use similar license agreements then the law you mention probably does not apply.
This is a good test to see how many stupid fucking idiots are out there, because only a stupid fucking idiot would buy it.
Part of the reason people will buy a brand new release-day game is because they can hammer the shit out of it in a short time over a holiday break and sell it used to recoup some of the cost (over 50% for new titles, easily). If this isn't the case, the era of $60+ release-day console games is over.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
We used to play video games while deployed on ship underway. No internet to connect to, and the XBOX360/PS3 were the consoles of choice in our rec-room. This completely screws the active duty military in a lot of places. Looks like more military will be using their PC's instead of the consoles, however this also happened when 'SPORE' came out on PC.... it required an internet connection to play and the people who bought it for deployment were many unhappy people.
...for at least "lubing it up," first! ;-)
I'm Erwin Schrodinger and I approve of this message, and I do not approve of this message!
Most all software has an EULA that says something to that effect. I'm fairly certain that a number of countries have stated that it doesnot apply in their borders.
I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
The law doesn't matter when the software is crippled and simply won't work if you give it away/sell it. Especially since every software license out there, except for a very small slice of the pie, tells you that you don't own what you "bought."
Modded insightful? Nope.
--
BMO
Adobes licensing matters not if it conflicts with the law of the land.
Some nations have actual consumer protection.
Very true! I have a friend that hacks all the consoles (in Canada, you NSA bastards) and he constantly has people bringing back consoles. Seems like more hassle than what it is worth, kind of like the old hackable DirecTV cards. Microsoft has made the decision for me, I'm not buying it, ever.
On the upside, anyone using your console will be able to play your games
How nice of them not to implement biometric identification. Yet.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
They would rent it in that case. It would cost less than $30 for sure to rent a game for a break. That would be 15 days on RedBox.
Me too! I don't play console games online, I stick to PC games. I believe the intended audience is 12 year old fanboys with oversized, stiff brim caps, that have swagg.
In some nations what you describe would be illegal. Some places have this thing called consumer protection and depriving the consumer of something he paid for would be basically the same as fraud.
I can currently give or sell a game to anyone with no requirements that the recipient is on a friends list. They use wording to give the appearance that they are enabling things, but it is really a matter of stating what they are allowing you to do and what you cannot do.
Buying and selling used games is a huge market and creates liquidity for people to buy new games. This is no different than how buying and selling stocks on the stock market creates liquidity for IPOs. But now they are killing that liquidity for game customers.
On your last point, I would argue that sharing a game among users is an irrelevant feature. In my experience, if a game is worth playing, it is worth owning. I do not want to depend upon the generosity of my friends (and vice verse) to be able to play a game. Everyone loses control in that scenario.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
Tell that to Adobe when your application resides in their cloud and you only have credentials to log into it, nothing to download, and its tied to your IP address. Try selling that.
That is not at all what we are talking about.
That would be SaaS and while I find it morally repellant, it skirts those laws. Good luck getting photoshop to work that way though.
What about rentals?
If MS is going to bend over backwards for the game publishers. What about rentals where you rent the game and then return it. You know to see if you actually like it or not. There are a lot of junk games out there, why should you spend $60.00 on something you will hate, and then not be able to sell back.
I prefer to rent it. If I like it then I will buy it.
With these bending over backwards for the publishers, The software better be Dirt Cheap.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Having looked at the Xbox One page on Amazon UK, all I can say is this:
NINETY QUID for a ****ing GAME?
At that price, they can keep it.
Never mind Spamassassin. When's Spammerassassin coming out?
So, the game developers will just make their game require the Xbone's "cloud services." Sure, you can sell the *game*, but if it won't work without access to the *service* (which is independent of the game, at least conceptually), and since the service is precisely that (a service and not a product), it cannot be resold.
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
... unless the NSA wants it, of course. MIcrosoft is more than happy to cooperate with our friends in the government.
For our protection.
-- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
> the used game resale options are in the hands of the game developers
Which is funny because were I live it's in the hand of the law. The law that says "I can resell my own games."
Actually, the law doesn't say that.
The law says you have a right to resell the physical media. Which you still have.
The law does *not* say you have the right to resell the experience of using the media, which is why its perfectly legal to DRM e-books, games, software, and why you can't legally resell your MP3s.
...because I can't think of any reason why someone would cover what's essentially a toy with enough legalese to require a couple of attorneys to understand.
Many people will buy the Xbox-one if it's released first because most people are impulsive and want stuff now...
If Sony will release the PS4 before MS the Xbox one they'll be in big trouble because not a lot of people will also spend money on a machine that's actually less worth
then what they already have.
Oh yea.. another thing I wont take the /. crowd for anything close representing the rest of the world because... that's just stupid.
Gamespy was a multiplayer matchmaking service that used to be bundled with many PC games. Last year they sold to GLU Mobile. GLU then decided to demand fees from the publishers who bundled the service with their game. Any developer who refused had their multiplayer matchmaking service shut down.
The result of this is many old PC games now have multiplayer features that no longer work.
Now, imagine if this incident applied to DRM servers.
There are old games out there made by companies that no longer exist, some of them, the IP rights are in legal limbo. Those games are still playable though because they don't have to phone home.
My internet connection isn't what concerns me, it's who owns the servers that continue to allow to play my game? What if Microsoft ever goes bankrupt or sells their XBox division off? What if they get tied up in court? Murphy's law tells me *something* within the next 20 years to render these games as drink coasters.
Which is funny because were I live it's in the hand of the law. The law that says "I can resell my own games."
And you still can!
You just can't play any second-hand games. But feel free to exercise your legal right to buy and sell all the box art and shiny-but-useless DVDs you want.
/ Yet another next-gen console I won't buy. Looking more and more like I'll go pure-PC for gaming in the near future.
If I had moderator points, you would get them all sir. Almost everyone I have engaged in this argument with fails to understand or acknowledge this fact. They may not like it, which is expected. When your choices are "spend years writing my own software that does what [software title] does, find a lesser quality product for free, or use this software and agree to their EULA.", you shouldn't act surprised or upset when you choose the last option. It was obviously your best choice or you would of went with the other two...
Having said that, those limited choices have also driven the demand for spectacular free products like gimp.
Meow
> "When Xbox One is on and you're simply having a conversation in your living room, your conversation is not being recorded or uploaded."
Says the company that jumped on board the PRISM train so happily and willingly....
Nice and clear message. Thanks for making it clear up front.
We will let you know how it works out.
Now if only people actually react to the message *sigh*
So this means that if I want to buy one of the next-gen consoles, I need to end my 15 year boycott of Sony products. Microsoft: you know you're really fucking up when you make Sony look like the good guys.
"On the upside, anyone using your console will be able to play your games, and you can share your games with up to 10 members of your family for free."
I can play my console with my family (more than 10+ persons at family reunion) for free right now. Pardon my language but this shit is not an upside it is a limitation.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Don't worry, the lobbyists writing copyright treaties will get around to fixing that soon enough.
I guess it might depend where you live, some countries have rulings that say you must be allowed to resell downloaded games too and I think EU is working on a directive to make this into a law.
- Raynet --> .
"NSA has been storing audio and video data captured inside 90% of US homes via secretive exploitation of next generation XBox and Playstation consoles"
Actually, we understand and acknowledge that these companies want to claim "it's not a sale, it's a license" just fine. We just disagree with the legality of it.
Especially when these companies want to treat it as a license when it benefits them, but then as a sale when that is more beneficial.
Doubly so when all the advertisements say "own/buy it today!".
The problem isn't with used sales, the problem is that they're changing from a product model to a license model that requires authentication. Just because the publisher are given control over how the license works doesn't solve the problem of when the authentication servers eventually shut down giving you a nice collection of coasters.
As someone who still owns and occasionally plays many of the games bought new in the late 80s early 90s this bothers me... I have no interest in buying games with an expiration date.
Collector's Edition
"and anyone in your home can play the game on your system." -- why, the hell, is that considered a feature!?
If you are enough of a masochist to have bought one in the first place, that is.
Not sure I am getting you, how is this any worse than all the cellphones/laptops/desktops/tablets with mics and cameras? Won't a simple software update to them enable the exact same thing? Okay, most laptop and desktop cams have a hardwired light that turns on, but almost all phones and tablets dont.
Why is the Xbox One being singled out here?
This space for rent.
Wow. I'm not a gamer, but this is impressive. If it didn't come directly from Microsoft I would expect 99% of it to be FUD thrown by the competition. Are the MS people FUDing themselves? Can you even do that? We need new terminology to describe this idiocy.
They don't even have to do that. MSFT has now said that it's up to the developer if they will allow games to be resold or not. They don't need any sort of a fig leaf, they just say the game is only licensed for 1 xbox live account.
To me, the thing that sucks even more is that the console has to phone home once a day, or you can't play anything.
Look at all we've read in the press lately about the government deciding they own all phone records, and they've been compiling this data without our knowledge for some time.
Why should we believe the console which is phoning home won't be collecting information about us and reporting it to anyone who has access to use/abuse the system?
Sure, they say the Kinect isn't going to record you. But we pretty much know the government collects first and asks permission later (if ever). They don't even need suspicion to get your phone records anymore.
Maybe the Xbox One should be called the Telescreen instead?
How big is the Photoshop download these days? And how small could they make it to download the core functionality that you use and download other stuff as needed? Not possible today to do Photoshop as a service, but what about when a 1Gbps link is standard and bandwidth costs on their end are a fraction what they are today?
Tell that to Adobe when your application resides in their cloud and you only have credentials to log into it, nothing to download, and its tied to your IP address. Try selling that.
Ummm, you still download and install the application locally, it just needs to phone home once a month or every 99 days for users to stay active. Don't know where the digital download resale laws stand. Me thinks you are still screwed in that respect as you can only subscribe for up to a year at a time of use billed monthly. Trust me, I work in education and we're very informed on this new change and don't like it one bit! Costs our students $360 a year instead of that for a perpetual license to the entire suite. Oh, and they upgrade about every two years, sometimes sooner if you're lucky. Certainly not often enough to justify the additional cost.
Internet confirms that nobody is going to buy the Xbox One
"There will be no fee to transfer your title to someone else"
Bet you $100 that this is only available if you are paying for a GOLD account, therefore you DO have a transfer fee, the cost of paying for an account that many dont use.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
There are alternatives to Adobe products. Perhaps not as good currently, but I'm willing to bet the slack will be picked up quickly if Adobe moves strictly to the cloud.
You mean like we've been hearing how Gimp will overtake Photoshop for more than a decade now? That long I'm not willing to wait. It's not an "if" in this case. Adobe *IS* moving it's applications to the cloud. That's not the problem. It's what they're charging that's got the community in an uproar.
So WTF is GameFly going to do?
If you are downloading it and running a separate executable that is not SAAS as it is generally understood. Citrix or something in the web browser is what most folks call SaaS.
> the used game resale options are in the hands of the game developers
Which is funny because were I live it's in the hand of the law. The law that says "I can resell my own games."
Actually, the law doesn't say that.
The law says you have a right to resell the physical media. Which you still have.
The law does *not* say you have the right to resell the experience of using the media, which is why its perfectly legal to DRM e-books, games, software, and why you can't legally resell your MP3s.
Well, that all depends on what country you're in now doesn't it? Since the entire world doesn't live under one set of laws your assertions are invalid.
Calling home every 24 hours, restricting games to accounts (even sharable), etc, these all required a lot of extra work to implement. As this is a commercial product, somewhere a manager has signed off on the cost of this effort, believing that this will increase profits, customer goodwill, or some other marketable resource.
Since these actually cripple existing functionality from a game-player perspective, make the product less attractive to game players, someone, somewhere must believe that some other 'customer' is going to pay more to make up the difference in lost sales, loyalty, and increased customer dissatisfaction.
It's not the retail stores, which are being cut out almost entirely - gamestop, best buy, walmart, or large rental agencies like gamefly, who's entire business model is inapplicable for xbox one games. If you can play your games at a friend's house without bringing the disc that means digital distribution for everything.
The only one that makes sense is the large game distributors, EA and their ilk.
I'd like to see the math that says EA & etc will make more money off this than will be lost. Seems like a risky gamble to alienate end customers in order to lock down a distribution channel.
will be able to play your games.
WOW this is a great feature that has been missing on my
Nintendo
Super Nintendo
Nintendo 64
Turbo Gfx 16
Sega
Sega Saturn
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3DO
Atari Jaguar
PS1
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Computer
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
Always on camera, every 24 hours license checks, you have to ask permission to resell your games. If you agree to this you're a chump full stop.
You paid to rent the software, same as renting a hotel room. Why should you be able to resell the hotel room?
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Specifically, the European Court of Justice ruled last year on a case involving Oracle and UsedSoft, with the latter wanting to resell used Oracle software. The court found that licences could be resold, notwithstanding a claim to the contrary in Oracle's licence agreement. Interestingly, they also ruled that if Oracle was offering free maintenance updates to the original purchaser then they must continue to offer the same to the purchaser of the used software licence.
Obviously with any legal case you have to look at the specifics and not assume too much of a precedent, but still, this seems a clear shot across the bows of Big Software that they don't get to close down the used software market through either blunt legalese in the licence agreement or trying to tie related services to the original purchaser only.
For anyone wondering, yes, this ruling is sharply at odds with the US Ninth Circuit's view in the Autodesk case.
(I'm not a lawyer, just an interested observer, so don't read any legal technicalities into the above.)
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Posted this in another comment too... but here we go:
How is this any worse than all the cellphones/laptops/desktops/tablets with mics and cameras? Won't a simple software update to them enable the exact same thing? Okay, most laptop and desktop cams have a hardwired light that turns on, but almost all phones and tablets dont. How is the Xbox One any worse?
This space for rent.
MS failed in copying Apples hardware sucess so they're trying to out do Sony as the most anti consumer/propriatory system company.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
No, Adobe ISN'T "moving applications into the Cloud". It's moving the licensing into a subscription service that uses "The Cloud" as a conduit.
Yes, Adobe is trying to cloud things up by pushing the "cloud" aspect of it. But those are little fluffy bits tacked on to the core of industrial strength software. You download the app installers, run locally. Every month it phones home and gets permission to run for another month. Adobe tacked on some crappy 'collaboration' applets and a Dropbox wannabee service, but it's the same old app or exe file.
Whether that is legal in all countries is something for lawyers and similar spawn of mutant camels to figure out. But it is apparently legal enough in Adobe's core markets for them to spend a lot of time (and goodwill) on it.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Where? I'm curious.
And for how long?
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
This platform will be hacked at the speed of light BECAUSE of all these draconian restrictions.
Nah, there is a fair amount of latency in the system. If the hackers are in the US, it might be broken at the speed of ISDN or a T1 line.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Microsoft denies working with the NSA full stop. It denies it puts backdoors into Windows for the NSA and other agencies to use, but it does. It denies providing the NSA with full data on users using its online services, but it does. It denies that the always on functions of the Kinect 2 system provided with the Xbox One allows the NSA to gather data on all users of the console, but it does.
Obama, and previous administrations, specifically allow partners of the NSA to lie to the American public without fear of consequence. Indeed, when you provide information to the NSA, it is a legal requirement that you lie about the fact. None of this is secret if you do even a few minutes research.
Microsoft dedicates 2 CPU cores, 3GB of RAM, a completely separate OS, a large chunk of the HDD, and multiple dedicated hardware blocks to the 'always on' feature of Kinect 2. While the console is powered, the Kinect sensors are spying on console users within the room (and the microphone array attempts to listen to sounds/speech in adjoining rooms). By default, the console identifies each person who enters the room, and records a photograph of their face, and the times of their presence, storing the information as encrypted data on the HDD, and uploading the same data at least once a day.
NSA and others with the console 'key' can place the console in signature or snapshot mode. Snapshot mode retrieves continuous image and sound data as 'samples', limiting the daily bandwidth of captured data to a level the user still won't notice, providing the console is left connected much of the time. Signature mode allows the console to accept up to multiple thousands of 'trigger' conditions (like a given sound, or a certain person in the room) which, when met, trigger steaming capture of data from the Kinect, either immediately uploading the stream if possible, or storing it on the HDD for later upload when the console is reconnected to the Internet.
The console will NOT function unless the Kinect system is fully powered and functional. Any attempt to externally block or defeat the sensors (by taping over the cameras or pointing kinect at a wall) causes the console to immediately pester the user to 'recalibrate' Kinect (ie., reposition it facing the full room). All games are required to begin with a Kinect calibration stage, even when the game makes no significant use of Kinect input.
A AAA game maxing out CPU and GPU console power has ZERO effect of the functioning of the Kinect system. XBox One is specifically designed to NEVER starve the Kinect processing system of resources, so that the spying can continue under all use circumstances.
It should disturb all of you that the Kinect is also specifically designed to identify when sexual activity is occurring in front of it. The body 'skeleton' tracking features of Kinect are vastly improved in version 2, and allow the console to easily guess the forms of physical activity of the people in the room.
In many ways, the XBone tests the sanity of ordinary people. It is half as powerful as Sony's PS4 for high end gaming, yet is currently set to be more expensive to buy (if Microsoft can even solve current hardware problems). Microsoft's approaching 'exclusive' games are pitiful compared to Sony's line-up. A miracle has truly happened with Sony giving up all of its bad old ways, and offering customers the clean, powerful, unencumbered console people always expected to buy from Microsoft.
Microsoft's intentions with the Xbox One are truly evil. However, no-one has to buy the NSA spy box. Then again, no German had to support Hitler, but tens of millions chose to do so of their own free will, years after the guy wrote 'Mein Kampf', and clearly laid out his beliefs and intentions. No-one can deny that the Xbox One extends the power of the NSA into your own living room. The shills that cry "tin foil hat, tin foil hat" should have no impact when everyone can read Microsoft's own statements on the workings of the XBone. You ALL know what it means to have an internet connected camera system pointing at you all the time. If you still don't care, you truly deserve your fate.
I don't think you understand. In the EU, software you buy is yours. You are not able to "rent" anything. Even if the EULA says so, it is still void and null. You outright OWN it if it is sold anywhere in the EU. It is why when you buy a machine with an OS on it, that OS can no longer be "tied" to the system or motherboard. You are able to resell it to anyone else, as you own it outright. You have expensive CAD software with hardware dongles that tie the software your machine only? No longer, you can resell it and the publisher MUST allow for that dongle to now be tied to the new owner. They have NO say after the software is sold. It is treated as resellable property for eternity.
The same will be for the XBox One and any other console vendor. If they intend on selling any sort of software in the EU, they must allow it to be resold by the original purchaser, on their own terms, at their own prices, with zero restrictions from anyone. It is the law. Period.
what we really need is a law or court case to settle it once and for all. Either validate or destroy EULAs and TOSs once and for all. imo, these totally one sided forced agreements are bullshit, but until we get it actually set in stone or set a precedent, the current wishy/washy itshowitsalwaysbeendone will continue.
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
Not so in the EU. The main case that formed this new law was Autocad and DRM Dongles restricting the sale to a single owner without the owner able to resell it. The law makes it so that when any sort of software is bought, it must be able to be resold with full working access as if it were originally a new sale. Autocad had to allow their DRM/Dongles to transfer to the new machines.
ebooks, games, and itunes are also effected, they can be resold in the EU. Until these companies put in the ability themselves, people like redigi are already letting users resell basically everything.
you can't legally resell your MP3s.
What? How so?
Sure, you can't sell copies of them, but the important word here is copies. Unless you're trying to tell me that all these music stores that buy and sell used CDs are breaking the law?
(note there's nothing wrong with format shifting either)
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
You mean the one which were recentely slapped on the finger , because the judge were not fooled by a "perpetual" licence and consider it a first sale ?
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
You paid to rent the software, same as renting a hotel room. Why should you be able to resell the hotel room?
Bad analogy - a hotel room is not installed on my physical property.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Their description of Kinect privacy sounds an awful lot like the privacy policy on browser scraping in-game ads in PC games (disabled by blocking the application in the Windows firewall). In the case of the browser scraping, none of the data leaves your system, but if it looks like you're into skateboarding the game will fetch an ad for skateboard gear and show it in the game. That request for a skateboard gear ad DID leave the system. Maybe the same thing with Kinect? Hears you saying you'd like some pizza, fetches an ad for Pizza Hut, and hey none of your conversation was recorded or left the system right?
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Amazing how with each new product Microsoft always design in exactly the thing that would most make sure my money stays in my pocket.
Windows 8's hideous an massively inneficient GUI saved me from wasting $$$ on an unnecessary upgrade. Thanks Microsoft for reminding me that Windows 7 works just fine at work. (Still not as good as Linux Mint or other free Linux distros I run at home though).
Microsoft phones are just plain useless (so start out being totally undesireable).
I can't tell you how many cars I've crossed off my potential future purchases list because they have had "Powered by Microsoft" stickers.
Now this retarded "always connected" decision by Microsoft was exactly what it would take to make sure my household wont ever be buying any more Xboxes.
Just look at all the money Microsoft keep saving me.
So services like Steam are illegal in those countries?
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
Thats great, except it doesnt work like that in Civilized world:
http://www.zdnet.com/oracle-cannot-block-the-resale-of-its-software-in-europe-7000000189/
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
...Not a fucking one of them
Half the players of these games are non-internet connected teenagers at least in terms of their bedrooms. They can't buy $70+ games either as a rule. Microsoft just hasn't had enough strikeouts yet eh? Well they'll learn the hard way. All the next gen PlayStation has to do is be less draconian because the hardware is absolutely the fucking same.
[...] for me the ability to buy a single copy of a game and share it between all ~5 xbox users I know will be a lot more useful.
My guess is you're reading too much into that feature, that won't be how it is going to work. No more than one person will be able to play a shared game at any given moment, so no multiplayer co-op or combat, and no achievements for anyone but the owner, scrap that, the licensee, plus a lot more of similarly arbitrary restrictions.
A World in a Grain of Sand / Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Infinity in the Palm of your Hand / And Eternity in an Hour.
Looking more and more like I'll go pure-PC for gaming in the near future.
Is it really any better in the PC only market? Is there a big market for used PC games? Honest question, as I've been out of the loop for a while.
You know, I'm probably not in the target demographic anyway.
I'm a 31 year old guy with some disposable income. I loved my NES and have nothing but fond memories of console gaming circa 1990. But the NES was the last console I owned for a loooong time, since I discovered PCs and PC gaming around that time. When I first saw Wolfenstein 3D and Rise of the Triad, I knew consoles were already relics.
Time passed, and eventually I caved. I bought an Xbox 360 S, which I figured would have had all the hardware issues ironed out. Boy was I wrong. While I did manage to avoid the 'red ring of death', it wasn't long before the optical drive died, the hard drive died, the WiFi adapter died. For a while I still played it, having replaced the hard drive with a large USB flash drive, the WiFi with an Ethernet cable, and the optical drive by re-purchasing games I already owned in the Xbox Online Marketplace. Eventually, the Xbox just stopped powering up entirely.
So for the next generation, I'm glad Microsoft has acknowledged these issues by focusing on adding more points of failure. With additional dependencies like internet access (to phone home) and third party developers' cooperation (to enable resale of used games), the XBone will be a must-have item I'm sure.
I just use Steam now. Less hassle, and at least I can buy reliable hardware on the open market. Fuck consoles. They blew it when they decided that build quality didn't matter and "it just works" was a nice-to-have.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
"How is it worse?" is not the question. "Is it wrong?" is the question.
Given how this system works, how on earth do you 'rent' a game for this system?
They've managed to put a rifle to the head of rental companies and pulled the trigger until the clip went click. No rentals when the system locks games to specific machines like this.
I do understand the outrage for the people that this does affect, but for the most part this does not affect me because:
1. I don't ever sell games
2. I rarely buy used games
3. I'm never offline for more than 24 hours at a time\n
I also have a gaming PC and will probably end up with all of the consoles, as that is what normally happens, since there will eventually be some games I want to play on each system. I tend to not get caught up with how evil companies are. I just use them for their products and if their products stop being useful to me, I will stop getting them.
My biggest concern at this point is one that Microsoft hasn't addressed, which is what happens eventually when they stop supporting this console. I don't like the possibility that in 10-15 years, I may never be able to go back and play any games that I purchased on this console.
While this is annoying financially, I also see it as a problem in terms of video game history. You can never tell somebody about an awesome game you play years ago and recomend they go check it out. It would be more like with MMOs, where if you didn't get to experience some game when the servers were still live, or you didn't get to experience vanilla WoW, then you never will. In the future, this next generation of consoles could completely disappear, and all that would be left to show for it is the Wii U.
Won't be possible under the XB1 model unless you pay for the "license" to play the game.
Yeah, this whole thing just further points out how badly schools are failing to educate kids, that they think this would be a great "Feature" rather than a crime against humanity....
They also say data gathered during normal use won't leave the console without your explicit permission.
They also say data gathered during normal use won't leave the console without your explicit permission or a valid court order
FTFY.
The MS business model is to a) buy / copy someone else's business plan / idea b) provide just enough quality and value to get a big audience and c) start taking where you really don't want to go but now they've set the hook and you are in their playground d) start fucking you and hope you like it enough to come back for more.
Apparently the new Microsoft motto is "because fuck you"
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
"Almost everyone I have engaged in this argument with fails to understand or acknowledge this fact"
That's funny because EULAs are pretty much null and void in many jurisdictions, including California, where I whipped Electronic Art's ass in court.
So you think you know what the facts are, but you're wrong.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
That's not how Adobe's current cloud offering works, you have to download photoshop to your computer to use it.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
I hope this clarifies things for Microsoft.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Whereas cartridge based game systems may work, no problem, in 100 years or more if kept in a dry place.
Cartridge-based games generally save state in battery-powered internal memory. Those batteries run down over time, probably long before any other component fails.
well that doesn't matter as long as the battery doesn't leak on the board.
except with some arcade boards etc which have suicide batteries(you run out of battery on the board and it wipes, meant to curb illegal clones), but roms for most of those have been hacked/preserved already so you can make new.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
why would you need both ouya and gamepop? knowing bluestack the android on the gamepop is broken in some horrific way that makes a good product unusable for most "out of the box" use cases...
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Inkscape is free and already as good as Illustrator.
I like to advocate FOSS solutions too, but I like to tell the truth while I do so. Illustrator is better than Inkscape, but Inkscape is good enough.
you can't legally resell your MP3s.
What? How so?
Sure, you can't sell copies of them, but the important word here is copies. Unless you're trying to tell me that all these music stores that buy and sell used CDs are breaking the law?
(note there's nothing wrong with format shifting either)
No. I assume you understand the difference between a CD and an MP3?
Why is a store selling the media (the CD) at all relevant to a discussion about selling the content (MP3)?
Those stores absolute do *not* sell "used" MP3s.
Well thats one less console to buy. #1 time i get to play my consoles is when my internet is dead.
This is why Microsoft has left the right to sell used games squarely in the hands of the publishers ... along with the legal liability for not doing so if it runs afoul of the EU's consumer protection laws. Notice they won't even claim a portion of the used game sales. Since when would MS leave money on the table like that? Since the EU has been jabbing them with multimillion dollar fines every other year. Used game sales is a hot-button issue, as the number of comments on this story suggests.
"Can't you see that everyone is buying station wagons?"
$80? That's the expected retail price in the US. Here in my (eurozone) country, most new games for the 360 and PS3 is about $110... I wouldn't be surprised if the XBoxOne and PS4 titles will start at $120-140 by launch time.
-- I am the Monkey Guru.
No. I assume you understand the difference between a CD and an MP3?
Why is a store selling the media (the CD) at all relevant to a discussion about selling the content (MP3)?
Those stores absolute do *not* sell "used" MP3s.
Sure. The bits are arranged differently. That's it. I'm not talking about stores, either, but the laws governing personal sales should govern store sales as well. They should not be treated differently.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
When I buy a system, I want to be able to play any games I purchased whenever I want. At home. At the cottage (where I do not have any form of internet). At friends' houses. In the RV while traveling. I also have the right to continue playing them if my box has an accident, or needs to be replaced. It would be nice if I could upgrade to a better version of the box without having to jump through hoops just to keep playing my same old games. Maybe, I might even pick up a copy of last years' hot game, and play it for myself, now that I can score it for a discount at a trade-in shop. Because that's what I want to do with my money and time, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to waste either on such a system. And no, I do not have anything associated with Steam. I like to play a lot of off-line games, as I have limited (or nonexistent) internet access. That, and I'm not able to even come close to competing (let alone surviving) the 15 year old twitch gamers, hyped up on Red-Bull. If this is the future of gaming, I guess I'll stay in the Stone Age, with my off-line games, playing them with friends over my LAN.
While it is good that MS is not hiding this defective by design crap from people, like a "Known to cause cancer" label on cigarettes, sadly it will not make much difference.
It occurred to me that complete idiots now play video games too, and they will probably eat this shit up. I guess I need to find a new hobby. They've screwed computer gaming too.
Yes. Mods, this is flamebait. Sorry. It's also factual and possibly prescient.
If you're saying that a company making it impossible to resell your used games is illegal in certain countries, that would make Steam and similar services illegal too, obviously. Last time I checked, you couldn't resell your Steam games.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
It is a "feature" when it can spot the body and profile of the 10 family members they mention.
I wouldn't be surprised if they had an error in the system somewhere for "Your body profile doesn't match the 10 family members on file. Would you like to pay for an account?"
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
You mark my word, when the shit really hits the fan on this "internet required" stuff, MS will back down faster than you can say "Start Button."
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
I know the facts. The fact is consumers are most often purchasing a license to use software, not the actual software. Whether or not that EULA practice holds up in certain jurisdictions doesn't change that.
Congrats on your win against EA. It's a shame the government has to interfere. As a result, we see companies like EA just side step whatever California is trying to accomplish by selling products and services that require an always-online connections. Did the consumer really win? Not in my opinion. We received more intrusive DRM, arguably poorer quality products from EA, and wasted government resources.
Maybe some day the consumer will make a difference by purchasing games and software from companies that don't sell EULA-restricted products.
Meow
I have unfortunately had different experiences than you. Most people I hear complain about this subject make claims like, "I bought the software", or "I own the game, I can do with it whatever I please". I would agree with you if instead they made claims like, "Licenses to use should be illegal".
And I agree, EULAs are bad. But when people know about EULAs... and know about the crappy DRM companies like EA use to try and enforce their EULA... but yet still buy that EA product... that's just asinine. Its not like any of this is news. Companies like EA have been doing this for a long time. I enjoy seeing those same people complain because I know I'm witnessing the consequences for their actions (unhappiness and complaining for foolishly supporting a company with bad policies).
Meow
I got an Xbox None
With Google Glass, OnStar , this, and phone cameras/mics you can kiss privacy good bye. Even if it isn't you taking the picture, someone else is.
thats pretty much my best post ever. I spent like 3 hours typing it.
Could you get a perpetual license for all of CS6 for $360? Was the educational discount that good? If so, I can see where some people would be pretty unhappy about it.
IMHO the Creative Cloud package isn't too bad a deal. I mostly use it for Photoshop, but I needed a good video editor the other day and it was nice to be able to run Premiere Pro without jumping through any other hoops.
It also appears that CC apps can coexist on at least two different PCs without any licensing hassles. The DRM is not as unobtrusive as Steam but it is still fundamentally pretty usable, from what I've seen so far.
No used game sales means less new game purchases
It is fairly trivial to show that the "recouped costs" as you put it will never allow more new game sales in a market that allows used sales.
If the used game market was 100% effective, then the new games sales would be the same between the two. However, the used market is far from efficient. It drains a huge percentage of the money that goes through it into the pocket of the dealers.
What is true is that a market without used sales will allow consumers to experience a lesser amount (not necessarily quality) of content. But if you want to make that argument, then I recommend that you first put your attention towards getting rid of copyright and intellectual property laws as they have the same effect.
You do realise that they'll not simply write an API that asks "what version of the software are we on" but instead has the game issue a challenge, have the OS compute a response using a private key (quite possibly by contacting microsoft's servers in between), and checks the response using a public key.
Not sure if trolling or just stupid.
Same here.
Twinstiq, game news
No thanks M$, I'd would actually like to use the things I own.
There. Fixed that for you.
Wasn't there a story on here a month ago about a company that wanted to resell MP3s that got shut down because they couldn't verify that the original was actually deleted?
Guess you've not bothered looking at the full-size die pics (not the crap Anandtech has, either.)
It looks much closer to the HD5000 series, and still has unknown additions to it.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
...one roll of tin foil. Folding instructions available at http://support.microsoft.com/omgstoplookingatme/
Note the phrasing, your conversations won't be recorded ... no mention of video. ... is there a default setting and if so, what is it and how obvious is it?
Note the phrasing, while you are playing, nothing will leave the Box without your express permission
MS is doing this with government subsidies. It will not suffer a loss because it will be compensated. More importantly for the government, there are many who will purchase and install the device in their homes. You don't need one in _every_ home to adequately monitor the majority of the population, after all, people do talk about other people in the privacy of their own homes.
Clarification: it isn't the 'government'. It is the NSA. They have all the info, and are blackmailing/controlling the politicians with it. They run the government and are on their way to running the world.
Sleep well.
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
That is unless the law says that you do, which it does in some places.
The speed of the signal on an ISDN or T1 line is ... the speed of light (or close enough to be indistinguishable from it) since thats how electricity rolls and all.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Who said anything about Gimp? Corel makes products that are highly competitive with Adobe's. Inkscape is free and already as good as Illustrator. There are tons of audio editors as good as or better than Audition and the same goes for Premiere. HTML5 is supplanting Flash. So what exactly does Adobe have that can't be replaced?
InDiesgn on the Mac, for one. I'm not in a Windows-only shop. I am in a design school. Inkscape is NOT as good as Illustrator, despite your and others' assertions. There are no mature tools for HTML5 development as HTML5 is hardly mature as a standard. I have used multiple audio tools over the years, but that's irrelevant as I am not in the audio engineering/music department. Most of what my students need are in the Design side of the house and I'm sorry there aren't a lot of choices. I know, I have been looking for months, since the stirrings on campus about the Adobe license changes. Just looking at feature sets for apps isn't a good comparison in and of itself. I need to know how the apps interoperate as that is critical to a designer's workflow. I need to know what things the students AREN'T going to be able to do without the Adobe product and determine the impact that will have. You make it sound like, "Oh just switch apps and everything will be fine," uhhhh, no not so much. You're talking about changing an entire workflow, adding layers of support and dealing with multiple vendors (if any as FOSS has none). Plus, I have no idea what effect this will have on the output side as the students will also be printing from all these new apps on a regular basis to large format printers. What features are they losing there? I can tell you that Adobe has put considerable resources into the print process features in their design apps and that replacing those features is going to be much, much harder. At least one department I support grants professional degrees (B. Arch.) and the students are required to print a book. Other than things like Quark Express (Windows only) and TeX (not gonna happen for these kids) there isn't much option.
Inkscape is free and already as good as Illustrator.
I like to advocate FOSS solutions too, but I like to tell the truth while I do so. Illustrator is better than Inkscape, but Inkscape is good enough.
Ok, again, for whom is InkScape good enough? The casual graphics user/sysadmin? Sure. For the professional designer? Hardly. How does InkScape interoperate with other design applications? How well does it support large format printers from multiple vendors? Does it support the PANTONE color matching system (this is a BIG one for us)? Does it support PostScript Level 3? If any of the answers to those questions is negative, it's a no-go.
> the used game resale options are in the hands of the game developers
Which is funny because were I live it's in the hand of the law. The law that says "I can resell my own games."
Good luck with that. Microsoft has upheld the notion that you cant re-sell OEM copies of Windows in court for over a decade now.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.