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Tim Cook May Not Know Why, But Samsung Is Winning in China

An anonymous reader writes with this interesting snippet about the state of mobile tech in China: "Apple Chief Executive Tim Cook believes that 'over the arc of time' China is a huge opportunity for his pathbreaking company. But time looks to be on the side of rival Samsung Electronics, which has been around far longer and penetrated much deeper into the world's most populous country. Apple this week said its revenue in Greater China, which also includes Hong Kong and Taiwan, slumped 43 per cent to $4.65 billion from the previous quarter. That was also 14 per cent lower from the year-ago quarter. Sales were weighed down by a sharp drop in revenues from Hong Kong. "It's not totally clear why that occurred," Cook said on a conference call with analysts. Neither is it totally clear what Apple's strategy is to deal with Samsung – not to mention a host of smaller, nimbler Chinese challengers."

327 comments

  1. Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It's cheaper for what you get (ton more features, and they don't need to be babied like North Americans / other i users).
    It has a pressure sensitive stylus for writing asian languages.
    It's an asian company. While they might hate Koreans, they hate US people even more.

    Stupid company is stupid.

    Captcha: Liberty

    1. Re:Here's the reason... by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's an asian company. While they might hate Koreans, they hate US people even more.

      I don't know where you get this. In my experiences, the Chinese like US people, and Korean dramas are popular in China.

      Also, I'm not sure how a pressure sensitive stylus makes any difference for writing Asian languages........I haven't found any difficulty writing Chinese on an iPhone.....

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I haven't found any difficulty writing Chinese on an iPhone....

      That's 'cos you use Pinyin to write Mandarin. Doesn't work for other dialects.

    3. Re:Here's the reason... by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Funny

      After tens of wars US has waged against Asian countries, Asian like American? As an Asian I almost puked.

      Do you understand that 'Asian' is not the same as 'Chinese?' Apparently not.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:Here's the reason... by noh8rz10 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yep, better product, better price and you can install Cyanogen/AOSP to clear any backdoors. With Apple products you're stuck with your OS spying on you.

      why do you think cyan/aosp isn't spying on you? And what about all the malicious apps? if i lived in china, home of the filthy filthy app store, I'd want some protection.

    5. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "why do you think cyan/aosp isn't spying on you? And what about all the malicious apps? if i lived in china, home of the filthy filthy app store, I'd want some protection."

      Because the source is freely available.

      Here's some additional protection for the app issue, though it's easy enough to use the Play store anyway.

      The F-Droid Repository is an easily-installable catalogue of FOSS (Free and Open Source Software) applications for the Android platform. The server contains the details of multiple versions of each application, and the Android client makes it easy to browse, install them onto your device, and keep track of updates.

      You can install the latest version from here or see the end of this page for a QR code.

      You can also browse the repository with a web browser, and download the applications directly from there if you can’t or don’t want to run the F-Droid client on your device.

      https://f-droid.org/

    6. Re:Here's the reason... by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you get this. In my experiences, the Chinese like US people, and Korean dramas are popular in China.

      He formed his opinion based on the U.S. media deception about China.

      The Chinese people, just like everywhere else, want a better life. When they voluntarily use their money to buy Samsung devices instead of competing devices, its because that device is at least perceived to deliver better than the alternatives.

      The idea that the Chinese people dont like Americans is rooted in the belief that they are stupid (as if they would have to be stupid not to want an Apple device) and bigoted (as if they don't want Apple devices simply because Apple is American.)

      The free market rocks.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    7. Re:Here's the reason... by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Informative

      What war did the US wage against China? England screwed with them plenty, but the US has generally fought against their enemies or only indirectly in proxy wars. When you talk "asian" it sounds like you are picking and choosing between multiple different ethnicities to suit your "pet" theory. US liberated the Phillipines and is well liked there. Despite fighting Japan, the US is not hated there. And China likes the US. Well, the people do, even if the government doesn't. When walking around large cities that get few tourists, as a tall pale person, I had plenty of strangers who would come up and find some excuse to practice English with me.

      Maybe those in some countries don't like us, but from what I've seen, having been across much of eastern Asia, the US is generally well regarded. The only exception is Indonesia, and that's religious/political. What country are you from, the country of "MakeShitUp?"

    8. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      This is odd but just today I took my kids to "Chinese Reconciliation Park" - a spot to recognize and apologize for the fact that in the 1800's thousands of Chinese people were driven out of our town in a spat of racial hatred. Most fled on threat of violence but the last 200 were rounded up forcibly, driven to the edge of town to wait a day unsheltered in the pouring, bitterly cold November rain and then loaded onto cattle cars for a trip to Portland, Oregon. At the end of that day there was not one Chinese person left in town. We had had an ethnic purge.

      I'm not sure our kids got the whole horror of it, but it hit me pretty hard.

    9. Re:Here's the reason... by Lincolnshire+Poacher · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What war did the US wage against China?

      Estimates of Chinese casualties in the Korean war range up to 900,000. Accepted level seems to be around 700,000 with 180,000 fatalities.

      I appreciate that the action was UN-flagged but the majority of forces were US.

    10. Re:Here's the reason... by gagol · · Score: 0
      --
      Tomorrow is another day...
    11. Re: Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't mean that it's a well known fact in China.

    12. Re: Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is not the same as waging war with China.

    13. Re:Here's the reason... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I did mention proxy wars. We count our dead as killed by NK, even if it was a Chinese gun or Chinese soldier shooing it, and I expect the Chinese feel roughly the same, though I didn't directly ask about the Korean war while there, though some are bitter about the treatment by the English. Oddly, I did ask about it directly and nobody seemed to mind about the poor treatment of the Chinese in the US (near slavery of the Chinese on the west and Irish on the east building the railroad).

    14. Re:Here's the reason... by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      There isn't an immigrant group we weren't bad to. The question was only the breadth of harm and duration. Plenty is still essentially ongoing.

    15. Re: Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't mean you're not an idiot. If the same thing had happened in China, to Americans, do you think you would know about it?

      Did you think "Yes!"...you did, didn't you?

      qed

    16. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do *you* understand that "Asian" is a *superset* of "Chinese", and therefore, in his context, it IS "the same".

    17. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      chinese are even worse....

    18. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      woosh

    19. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not chinese nor asian, and I don want an iPhone either. I just bought my wife a samsung s4, like the device a lot better than apple.

      I can hook it up to my usb, and put some small movie on it, I can add and remove foto's. And I don need to use itunes. The samsung even had a translation program, where I can speek english and it translates it to chinese. Hadn't seen that one on the iPhone...

      I post as an anonymous coward, because I don't see the use, of having to use a different account for every fucking forum website in the internet...

    20. Re:Here's the reason... by antifoidulus · · Score: 2

      You do also realize that China started that war, correct? UN forces did not enter Chinese territory, the Chinese decided that they were getting too close to the Yalu river and attacked. China waged war agains the US, not the other way around(also the US saved their asses during WWII, a fact that many Chinese history books tend to "overlook")

    21. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong, the Cubans have you by the balls, to the point to infringe in your basic rights (you can't travel freely to Cuba as you can do to Iran and North Korea) and there is nothing you can do to.

    22. Re:Here's the reason... by Clsid · · Score: 1

      Chinese hate US people? You clearly haven't lived in China. Price and good quality is the only reason why Samsung beats Apple here. Hell, I've have people from the business sector tell me that they wanted an iPhone since Android is too confusing but Samsung offered discounts to get phones company-wide, something Apple flat-out refused to do. So in a way, Apple will have to understand sooner rather than later that in China, consumers are extremely saavy and will refuse to buy overpriced stuff unless it is to show face. The problem is that iPhones (especially the 4/4S kind) are so common that even the show face part is moving towards other products, at least in the phone arena since the iPad seems to be doing just fine here.

    23. Re:Here's the reason... by Clsid · · Score: 1

      Lol drop the crap dude, if anything the people that the Chinese truly hate are the Japanese. You are just making stuff up, but what can you expect from an AC...

    24. Re:Here's the reason... by Clsid · · Score: 1

      That is a sad part of US history, but that does not mean that Chinese today hold a grudge against American people for it. Hell compare that to what happened in Nanjing in WW2, and to top it all, Japan still say that it was an unfortunate part of the war, never apologizing and in fact, some people even denying the whole thing happened. That is a huge difference with what happened in the US.

    25. Re:Here's the reason... by Clsid · · Score: 2

      They saved their asses? China was overrun pretty much like France, and at least the Chinese had the excuse of having a civil war going on while the invasion happened. So after a whole lot of killing, when the ALLIES finally won, countries like China were free to get back to normal. The US forced Japan to surrender, but it was either going to be the US or the Soviet Union that would force their hand to get back to the status quo.

    26. Re:Here's the reason... by Clsid · · Score: 1

      Next time try to use both systems. Both the S4 and the iPhone are very good phones. If you like one over the other that's fine, but all the stuff you said, you kind of have been able to do with the iPhone already, like using Handbrake to convert all sorts of movies, sync wirelessly and that is if you want to sync, with icloud and over the air updates you really don't need to use iTunes anymore. As for programs, I find that I like most games in the Apple app store since Android's selection is rather limited, but Android has by far better keyboard options like Touchpal, pretty neat ways to personalize the launcher and exclusive applications like Hanping which are useful in China. Not to mention the gazillion of app stores in China for Android and good system integration from the carriers like China Unicom or manufacturers like Lenovo.

    27. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't matter what dialect you speak, they can all be written using the standard Chinese script.

    28. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Erm, China is an Asian country? It's not American, or European.

    29. Re:Here's the reason... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      The Vietnam and Korean wars were partly to contain Communist Chinese political expansion in Asia. Both led to rampant human rights violations abuses and civilian casualties on both sides, sponsored by US and Chinese governments and their allies, and left terrible memories of racial and jingoistic hatred in the minds of people who are now senior business and political leaders.

    30. Re: Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Durp durp, they're employing the Macintosh strategy, "inevitably irrelevant" is the motto.

    31. Re:Here's the reason... by gtall · · Score: 1

      Just a bit of background, Mao left Chiang to fight the Japanese pretty much by himself figuring that Japan would lose against the U.S, and Russia. He figured his group of weenies would be the ones left standing, and he was correct.

    32. Re:Here's the reason... by gtall · · Score: 1

      Actually, the Korean War was a legacy of the Japanese who controlled Korea. They split the pop. between those who worked with the Japanese and those who were opposed. The Communist ideology was implanted by Russia. There were some Koreans who fought against the Japanese in China, but not enough to matter.

    33. Re:Here's the reason... by khallow · · Score: 1

      The US Constitution doesn't recognize a right to travel to the country of your choosing. Otherwise it's just a classic case of a small, focused special interest getting what it wants at the expense of a diffuse and mostly disinterested majority.

    34. Re:Here's the reason... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I did mention proxy wars. And I didn't talk to too many business leaders when I was there, but there isn't nearly as much anti-American sentiment there as there is anti-Chinese in the US.

    35. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What war did the US wage against China?

      Estimates of Chinese casualties in the Korean war range up to 900,000. Accepted level seems to be around 700,000 with 180,000 fatalities.

      I appreciate that the action was UN-flagged but the majority of forces were US.

      The Americans (or anyone else) never entered China during the Korea War. The Chinese entered into hostilities willingly of their own volition. Certainly they were worried that the Americans might enter their country, but amassing on their own border would have probably been sufficient.

      While American foreign policy has a lot of blood on its hands, you can hardly blame the Americans (and the rest of the UN force) for North Korea invading South Korea and then Chinese entering on their own free will.

    36. Re:Here's the reason... by khallow · · Score: 2

      China was overrun pretty much like France, and at least the Chinese had the excuse of having a civil war going on while the invasion happened.

      France had similar divisions between right and left. Those rivalries didn't reach the point of a shooting war, but that internal conflict help crippled their military preparedness and encouraged a number of factions (what became the Vichy French) to collaborate with the German invaders.

    37. Re:Here's the reason... by Clsid · · Score: 2

      Actually Mao and Chiang set their differences aside to fight the Japanese, then resumed to the business of killing each other. At least that is the way the history is taught in China, but the interesting part is that if you go to places like Nanjing, you still see they value some of the anti-communist generals which to me it was an interesting development.

    38. Re:Here's the reason... by BrokenHalo · · Score: 2

      but that does not mean that Chinese today hold a grudge against American people for it.

      This may be true of the Chinese, but the GP's claim that "from what I've seen, having been across much of eastern Asia, the US is generally well regarded" completely disregards history from well within my lifetime.

      This might not be generally known within the US, but what we refer to as the Vietnam War is known in Vietnam as the "American War". It's just too convenient to forget who was the aggressor.

    39. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So by your logic - Europe must *really* hate Europe.

    40. Re:Here's the reason... by karbonforms · · Score: 1

      yup.

    41. Re:Here's the reason... by Breaker_1 · · Score: 2

      Yep, better product, better price and you can install Cyanogen/AOSP to clear any backdoors. With Apple products you're stuck with your OS spying on you.

      why do you think cyan/aosp isn't spying on you? And what about all the malicious apps? if i lived in china, home of the filthy filthy app store, I'd want some protection.

      Well, you have to have trust in the Cyanogenmod people which is reinforced by being allowed to see the source and build it yourself. As far as malicious apps go, on Cyanogenmod, they've recently added "Privacy Guard" which basically chroots any app in a sandbox and emulates all parts of the system, but allows no chrooted app to see any data from any other app. http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/06/24/privacy-guard-formerly-incognito-mode-has-been-merged-into-cyanogenmod-will-appear-in-nightlies-starting-today/

    42. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Wow, just wow. I sure wish all my freedoms were covered by a document created by your drunken American prophets two and a half centuries ago.

      I would think that a free country would allow you to travel wheresoever you may wish, wouldn't you? But as you say, those few males covered everything, didn't they?

      Keep living your life according to your constitution; it's working out great so far, isn't it?

    43. Re:Here's the reason... by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 1

      So basically it sandboxes the sandbox, letting the app think it has more privileges than it really has?

    44. Re:Here's the reason... by Kneo24 · · Score: 1

      you kind of have been able to do with the iPhone already,

      I hope you see the issue there. People don't like having to jump through any hoops when they know there's an easier alternative.

    45. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you say the US liberated the Phillipines do you mean before or after the Philippine–American war?

    46. Re:Here's the reason... by c0lo · · Score: 1

      What war did the US wage against China? England screwed with them plenty, but the US has generally fought against their enemies or only indirectly in proxy wars.

      Ummm... let's see: Chinese exclusion act?
      * boxers rebellion and especially the aftermath?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    47. Re:Here's the reason... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2

      This might not be generally known within the US, but what we refer to as the Vietnam War is known in Vietnam as the "American War". It's just too convenient to forget who was the aggressor.

      Wouldn't that be "France" as the war started with them? But wait, France was supporting the Vietnamese emperor, so that would mean... the North were the aggressors. A little history goes a long way. FYI - the US was a late late late comer to this particular war, and was not an aggressor.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    48. Re:Here's the reason... by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      I appreciate that the action was UN-flagged but the majority of forces were US.

      Pretty sure they were Chinese... :p

    49. Re:Here's the reason... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1, Troll

      Before you beat yourself up, you might want to look at what the Chinese did to foreigners in the same period. Being run out of town would be a relative vacation.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    50. Re:Here's the reason... by deathguppie · · Score: 1

      McCarthur was pissing over the Yalu river from the start. He backed bombing runs into China to stop supplies coming in to NK. If you remember Truman was pretty pissed about it. McCarthur assured him that the the Chinese were a bunch of pussy's and not to worry about it. He was dead wrong on both counts. Truman was right to want to keep China out of the war. How long would you allow your people to be bombed in your own country before responding?

      --
      once more into the breach
    51. Re:Here's the reason... by noh8rz10 · · Score: 0

      I'm really looking forward to seeing your fucking company go down the gurgler, along with the whole fucking USA. You're all just corrupt, unethical creeps.

      says the AC from China...

    52. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, I'm not sure how a pressure sensitive stylus makes any difference for writing Asian languages........I haven't found any difficulty writing Chinese on an iPhone.....

      Yes, but what IME are you using?

      I watch people type using Cangjie on the MTR in Hong Kong, and it's hilarious. It takes them about a week to enter a character. Pinyin is massively more efficient, but only used by Mandarin speakers on the mainland.

      I doubt that's the IME is the only factor of course, or even the most important one. I can't see the iPhone being a winner here though.

    53. Re:Here's the reason... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I use the Handwriting input method. I prefer it to pinyin

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    54. Re:Here's the reason... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Technically, Chiang was about to launch a huge invasion on Mao's stronghold in Yenan (north of Xian), when his generals formed a coup to force Chiang to stop worrying about Mao and start fighting the Japanese. I guess in retrospect, Mao was a greater adversary, but at that time he seemed like a small problem.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    55. Re:Here's the reason... by matfud · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The US supplied funds and aid and instruction during WWII to what would become the National Liberation Front (Viet Cong) when the war ended. That conflict started against the british when soldiers where sent in to accept the surrender of the Japanese troops and police the region until france could handle it them selves. This started the First Indochina War.

      There are lots of reasons for this. The primary being that not all allies had quite the same goals in the second world war. America was working towards undermining the european colonial powers (post war). Other of the allies wanted to resume their empires. This partially determined which insurgents where sponsored by various allied powers during the war.

      History is never simple.

    56. Re:Here's the reason... by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      The US did provide support during WWII to China with efforts like the Flying Tigers but ultimately there were logistics issues trying to support China in its war against the Japanese given that the Japanese controlled most of the Pacific back then.

    57. Re:Here's the reason... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Is Rosetta Stone a good application for learning Chinese? Specifically Mandarin? You seem to know a bit about the language but I am just hoping you learned it with an application.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    58. Re:Here's the reason... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      For whatever reason the stylus that Samsung use does seem to work better than a finger or some 3rd party thing on the iPhone. My girlfriend is Chinese and I speak/write Japanese so I have taken some interest in this topic, and the consensus seems to be it's somehow faster and more accurate on Samsung devices. Not just because of the stylus, because of the recognition accuracy, tolerance of incorrect stroke order, editing facilities and prediction.

      That last one is a really big deal. You might have to do 12 strokes to write a single character (which is more like a whole word in English, but anyway...) and if the device can guess which one you want three strokes in that saves you a lot of effort. It seems like Samsung is better at predicting based on what the rest of the sentence is, and often will suggest several more characters or the whole sentence very early on. The iPhone has similar prediction facilities but they just don't seem to be as good somehow.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    59. Re:Here's the reason... by HornWumpus · · Score: 0

      France demanded it's colonies be returned to them as a condition of entering NATO. So the USA funded the frogs attempt at recovering 'french indochina'.

      In the final analysis it was a pawn battle in the cold war that the commies won. Doesn't stop commies from blaming the capitalists for the excesses after the war. e.g. Commie apologists blame Pol Pot on the capitalists.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    60. Re:Here's the reason... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      After tens of wars US has waged against Asian countries

      TENS of wars?

      That implies at least twenty, so let's see a list of twenty wars the USA has waged against Asian countries....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    61. Re:Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then why do Chinese think Asia should be one big China?

    62. Re:Here's the reason... by Teun · · Score: 1
      The US constitution heh?

      You mean to say the highest law of the land is written according to current German law, "what isn't explicitly allowed is verboten"?

      Although Dutch law is going the wrong way we still try to follow the principle that all is legal unless it is specifically forbidden and my impression is the USofA constitution is largely following the same (French revolution) libertarian path.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    63. Re:Here's the reason... by dk20 · · Score: 1

      I own a house in Guilin and have been to the "flying tigers" museum. Interesting seeing US air force memorabilia so deep in China.

    64. Re:Here's the reason... by asmkm22 · · Score: 1

      Most Americans seem to hate or resent Asian countries, yet we buy a crapload of their products without pause...

    65. Re:Here's the reason... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't that be "France" as the war started with them?

      Nope. When France saw that a war was brewing, they left. Eisenhower sent the first Americans to their deaths in Vietnam, and Eisenhower is the one that orderd the blocking of democratic elections in Vietnam because the US feared the outcome would not be the desired one. The North became aggressors when US military troops prevented a democratic election. Most don't find that "aggression" but "defense"

      But this goes back to my initial point where people are asserting Chinese hate Americans because the US fussed with Asia. It's simply not true, and a non sequitur. Either we are talking about China, or we aren't. Changing countries for every post for whatever makes the US looks the worst is stupid.

    66. Re:Here's the reason... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      I'd agree with the latter sentiments - but the US didn't involve significant troops until 1965, 10 years after the "official" start of the war.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    67. Re: Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah and after those wars I still see white models in most of your advertising overseas. Go figure.

    68. Re:Here's the reason... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Yup, I just word it because I get pissed that every lost war is blamed on Democrats, and every win associated with Republicans (both parties suck). So if A Republican started the war by interfering with internal affairs and sending the first troops in and sending in the first American fatality, and the last troops were pulled out by a Republican, the war is still attributed to the Democrats who sat in the middle, and considered proof that Democrats can't fight wars.

      Neither party is any better than the other. The military runs itself, with only minimal oversight by the President (The CinC gives yes/no answers, but doesn't plan attacks or develop scenarios).

      Both parties suck, and inventing false problems with one to help drive the divide is stupid and hurts America. So yes, I do my part to present the parties as equal. The "liberal" media presents the Koran War was won by the Republicans, and Vietnam was lost by the Democrats. Any Democrat from the military has a line of people willing to lie to say they falsified their service record (usually waiting until so close to the election that the proof that the accusers were provably lying can't be revealed in time).

    69. Re:Here's the reason... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      You've raised a good point about the Russian involvement, at least early in that war. The Chinese also got deeply involved later in the war in 1950. It's fascinating history.

    70. Re:Here's the reason... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      It's cheaper for what you get (ton more features, and they don't need to be babied like North Americans / other i users).

      High end Android phones are cheaper and have more features than Iphones. Mid range Android phones are a lot cheaper than iphones and are also more functional.

      In Asian nations, they aren't conditioned or forced to buy locked phones from a carrier tied to a 2 year contract. Most people buy the phone outright so your brand name handsets are competing with models from Huawei and ZTE which offer just as many features at half the price. Samsung sells a lot of mid range phones (Galaxy Mini) as well as older models like the SGS3 for much lower price points than Apple.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    71. Re:Here's the reason... by noh8rz10 · · Score: 0

      "why do you think cyan/aosp isn't spying on you? And what about all the malicious apps? if i lived in china, home of the filthy filthy app store, I'd want some protection."

      Because the source is freely available.

      so flipping what? I am so over these types of comments. You know, the tax code is publicly available too, but nobody knows what sort of financial traps could be there. have you code reviewed the code? do you know anybody who has? is there a third party auditor that does these things? hint: no, no, no

    72. Re:Here's the reason... by Xest · · Score: 2

      There are numerous reasons for Chinese distaste of America but a few prominent ones related to your post are firstly that "but the US has generally fought against their enemies or only indirectly in proxy wars" is ignorant of the truth just a little bit. The fact is that the US was the main opposing force to North Korea in the Korean War but on Korea's side were the Chinese. Over 1 million of them in fact.

      The North Koreans were smaller in number than China (they had about 1/6th the numbers), South Korea and the US. In other words the Korean war was more like a direct war between China and the US/South Korea. You had just under 1million Americans/South Koreans combined against 1.3 million Chinese and only about 250,000 North Koreans. Calling it an indirect proxy war is a bit stupid. There's nothing indirect about 300,000 Americans with 600,000 South Koreans facing off against 1.3 million Chinese and only 250,000 South Koreans.

      Another reason for Chinese distaste of America is it's support for Japan. Chinese distaste for the Japanese is still relatively high in part because Japan never really managed to do away with the nationalist sentiment there after the war unlike German that genuinely turned a corner. The result to this day is a non-negligible number of Japanese who refuse to accept wrongdoing in World War II and the resultant lack of willingness from successive Japanese governments to do anything about this. That's why we saw massive protests in China that weren't mere communist party stunts but genuine expressions of anger over the rising tensions surrounding the islands they both dispute ownership of recently. The Chinese see this as an extension of that worst kind of nationalism that Japan never truly shook off.

      There's then the Taiwan question, many mainlanders believe it should be a fully integrated part of China proper, but the US has vowed to protect the will of the Taiwanese people (which is IMO not a bad thing, but I'm explaining here where the Chinese distaste comes from). The fact it has stationed carriers there largely for this exact purpose is seen as somewhat of a provocation - that's kind of what happens when you station a battle group or two off a foreign nation's coast.

      Of course, American hypocrisy in constantly complaining about Chinese hackers and Chinese firms peddling backdoored hardware doesn't do much for relations either, especially when it's now clear that America has been snooping on everyone's data and funding hacking of Chinese institutions to boot. The Chinese therefore see the US rhetoric over the supposed Chinese cyber security threat as mere protectionism, and that is precisely why the Chinese will be less likely to buy US electronic goods - why would they when the products they create, that give them their jobs have been smeared so brutally in the US?

      So yes whilst your cutesy personal anecdote is all well and good that simply says that they're decent enough to be nice to you as an individual - they do that because they're mostly respectful hospitable people. It doesn't say anything about their feelings towards your country in general.

      I also note you shifted focus to East/South East Asia in your final paragraph, why was that? are the feelings towards America in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and all the other 'stans in the area inconvenient to your point? What was that you criticised the GP over? Something about picking and choosing Asian nations to suit your "pet" theory? Even ignoring that you seem to have skipped countries like Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia and Laos, relations between then and the US are better, but it can hardly be said that the people of those nations are particularly fans of the US.

    73. Re:Here's the reason... by Xest · · Score: 1

      That's not what a proxy war is. A proxy war is Iran/Syria funding Hezbollah attacks on Israel. If Iranians and Syrians started attacking Israel even if from Lebanon it would no longer be a proxy war.

      I don't know why you keep mentioning the "English", what treatment were they bitter about exactly and from when and where in China? People in Hong Kong for example wanted to stay British when the British lease on the territory ended so I'm not sure what this English/Chinese conflict you're referring to is. Also, why was it just the English, is this mystical conflict something that the Scots/Welsh just kept out of?

      Maybe you're "MakingShitUp" as you accused someone else of? Because as foreign relations go British-Chinese relations have been good for a very long time with the only exception being the few years of the Korean War in which Britain was a minor party with only 14,000 troops which is nothing, even Russia had 26,000 there, and China had 1,300,000. Britain was assisting China against Japan before America even figured out a war was going on so through that period were very close allies. The best I can guess you're gunning for are the 1800s with the Opium wars and so forth, but who knows, here, all through the 1900s to the present day you'll see Britain was pretty much an ally of China bar the Korean war despite the fact China as a country has changed in both boundaries and governing style many times over in this period:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93United_Kingdom_relations#Between_the_UK_and_the_People.27s_Republic_of_China_.281949_-_.29

      Even now that's true, that's why we work with China, rather than against it. There's a good reason Britain has become the first foreign nation to be able to trade sizeable amounts of China's currency in the last year and why we've got such strategist partnerships with firms like Huawei rather than just outright banning their kit from all public sector contracts. I wont say I fully trust the Chinese, yet it's clear with Prism I also have no reason to fully trust the Americans either but it's nice to have good relations with major nations and groupings of nations across the globe.

    74. Re:Here's the reason... by moonwatcher2001 · · Score: 1

      The US and China fought against each other in Korea circa 1951.

    75. Re: Here's the reason... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's this network where people can communicate and comment and report if there's an issue with software. It's amazing. You can actually talk to thousands of people, many of whom are developers, and actually discuss the software. Crazy, I know......

    76. Re:Here's the reason... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I also note you shifted focus to East/South East Asia in your final paragraph, why was that?

      Did you even bother to read what I was responding to? Someone else mentioned "Chinese" then the person I replied to only talked about "Asian", so I addressed both. But I think the person I was replying to was trolling by equating China with Iraq under the umbrella "Asia". That, and so many outside the US don't understand US use of Asian that it gets confusing. American English use of "Asian" means "East Asian" (east of India/USSR exclusive). You'd never hear a native American English speaker say "Asian" to refer to an Indian or Pakistani, but British English speakers do. Those distinctions get lost on an American forum with foreign participation objecting to word choice and semantics when it is the foreign reader who misunderstands, not the American writer saying something "incorrectly".

      So, when I add in any clarifications, I get bashed for irrelevancies. Even when a direct reply to the previous post.

      Even ignoring that you seem to have skipped countries like Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia and Laos, relations between then and the US are better, but it can hardly be said that the people of those nations are particularly fans of the US.

      Have you been? Vietnam is trying to be very open now, and isn't bad as a tourist destination, even for Americans. Though, they did arrest an exec from Quantas not too long ago for Jetstar's financial losses in a depressed global market, so obviously not as open as the US where CEOs are praised for failures and given large bonuses.

    77. Re:Here's the reason... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Yes, in a proxy war, as I said. Would you like to point out that the sky is blue and water is wet?

    78. Re:Here's the reason... by SoupGuru · · Score: 1

      Taco Machines?

      I'm not sure why you think a link to taco machines is relevant to the discussion.

      --
      What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
    79. Re:Here's the reason... by zipn00b · · Score: 1

      Both parties hold major blame for Vietnam though - Johnson wanted to go in big and Kennedy didn't which is one of the conspiracy theories about why Kennedy was killed. SO, in essence the Democrats are as much to blame for ramping things up. Like any war there was plenty of money to be made by the right people thus we ended up in a war. The rest of us just kind of get fucked in the process. And getting KIA isn't necessarily the worst fucking you get either.........

    80. Re:Here's the reason... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      And no president wanted to be the first US president to lose a war, so only after Nixon was on the way out would anyone make the sensible call.

    81. Re:Here's the reason... by nobodie · · Score: 1

      And who says they hate Koreans? I used to work for Samsung in China, and they are awesome. The Chinese people I knew there loved the company, especially over Chinese companies but also over LG, who competed for the same skilled workforce. The Chinese also have no love for a company like Apple that is a style maven for the hated rich and vapid elite. Frankly, all the fatcats already bought the iTrash they wanted and the wannabees don't want to keep buying new stuff just because it is new. They ain't stupid ya know. Just sayin'...

      --
      Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
    82. Re:Here's the reason... by syockit · · Score: 1

      And how do you think the Chinese script is input on the devices? Right, IME.

      And the IME uses what transliteration system? Pinyin. And pinyin is in what language? Right, Mandarin!

      Sure, you can use handwriting as the alternative, provided that you remember how to write them (it's easily forgotten especially if you don't write on paper often.

      Nevertheless AFAIK dialect users use latin when writing messages, so I think the discussion is moot

      --
      Democracy is for the people; you only vote once per season and we'll do the rest of the work for you don't have to.
  2. "It's not totally clear why that occurred" by Spy+Handler · · Score: 5, Interesting

    actually it is, Tim. The Chinese want cheaper phones, and they want phones you can put pirated warez on. Apple doesn't score well in either category.

    1. Re:"It's not totally clear why that occurred" by FRiC · · Score: 2

      It's easier than you think you put warez on iOS devices. Just go to any shop and pay like 10 bucks, and the shop will login using their App Store account, and you can then download anything you want, and these shops advertise openly that they don't sell warez and everything is "genuine". The shops don't give out their passwords, so you just go back once in a while and let them update the apps, for free.

    2. Re:"It's not totally clear why that occurred" by DigiShaman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Apple already tapped out the Chinese market that was in it for the social image and prestige. Besides, the Chinese iOS store sucks. Badly! Try it some time, it's not a pretty site to see just how limited the market options are and poor quality of apps.

      As for Samsung, they're lucky to have lasted this long. ZTE will mop the floor with both Apple and Samsung, combined. ZTE will be for China what LG is for S. Korea.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    3. Re:"It's not totally clear why that occurred" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Samsung is still a lot better than the competition here in China. The locally made phones are extra crappy. I can tell you because I got one. Especially the software is total shit, you can't use Google Play, and you can only use a Chinese alternative which has a poor selection of older apps, most of which are some form of spyware or malaware.

      If I had the money I would get one of those extra big Samsung phones to replace both my cell phone and my iPad. I think Samsung will be the leader here for the foreseeable future.

    4. Re:"It's not totally clear why that occurred" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As for Samsung, they're lucky to have lasted this long. ZTE will mop the floor with both Apple and Samsung, combined. ZTE will be for China what LG is for S. Korea.

      You do realize Samsung is actually much bigger than any other company including LG in Korea and they both work very closely together? Think the GE of Korea.
      Good for ZTE and China but I've never heard of them. Meanwhile my room is full of Samsung and LG phones and monitors.

      A fitting statement 60 years since the Korean war.

    5. Re:"It's not totally clear why that occurred" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe they, like me, simply want more control than none over what you can and cannot install. I would never buy a device - any kind of device - which forced me to buy software from one single location.

    6. Re: "It's not totally clear why that occurred" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given how immensely popular Galaxy Note And Note II have been, which cost similar, if not more, in China (actually in other parts of Asia too), and the domination iphone used to enjoy before the competitiors had something more interesting to offer, I wouldn't easily jump to the conclusion that this is due to the price.

    7. Re:"It's not totally clear why that occurred" by Clsid · · Score: 1

      Nah man, maybe Xiaomi or Huawei, but ZTE is not well regarded among my Chinese friends, which are tech-saavy. But what the Chinese really crave right now, it's not even Samsung, it's actually the Sony Xperia Z. Lenovo is also doing pretty good, and after having an 820, I have to say they are pretty good phones. I have had ZTEs, Huaweis and Lenovos, and from all the Chinese brands I would buy today, I would choose either Xiaomi, Huawei or Lenovo.

    8. Re:"It's not totally clear why that occurred" by Clsid · · Score: 4, Informative

      You can't use Google Play on a Samsung either. This is China you know. When you buy a phone from China Unicom they get rid of all the Google stuff, from Gmail to Youtube and Maps. Mine had something called Amap as a Google Maps replacement, which I have to say, it is a kickass app. If you speak Chinese you don't really need Google Play here. Try to get a phone from a good Chinese manufacturer like Huawei or Lenovo, or even Xiaomi. The rest is crap.

    9. Re:"It's not totally clear why that occurred" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The CEO of a large cap company who doesn't know why he's losing is going to have a bad time.

    10. Re: "It's not totally clear why that occurred" by shiruba1067 · · Score: 1

      hahaha I'm sorry, but ZTE is just shit. They area big joke here in Japan. Huawei, sure, Acer? Maybe someday, ZTE - not any time soon.

    11. Re:"It's not totally clear why that occurred" by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Well, and apple's product is actually butt ugly. Somebody should get over that "iconic" thing, it looks like a sardine tin.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    12. Re:"It's not totally clear why that occurred" by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Apple already tapped out the Chinese market that was in it for the social image and prestige.

      More like, the market moved away from Apple. The latest oversized Samsung with a firebreathing quad processor is cool, not Apple's clunky looking product.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    13. Re: "It's not totally clear why that occurred" by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Volume, not quality is what ZTE is known for. They move massive amounts of cheap products all over the world. It funds their R&D while gaining market share. It's the same tactic that LG used prior to making high-end products. In China, cheap sells. Especially when that's what most the Chinese can afford.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
  3. Price by redmid17 · · Score: 1

    It's price to some extent. However the fact that Samsung has had a larger presence in China for longer is pretty critical. Tim Cook doesn't seem very smart.

  4. It's because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People in China don't waste their money like Americans (e.g. entertainment, pets, cosmetics, etc).

    1. Re:It's because... by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Chinese people buy these things, too. I've been there and seen it done.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    2. Re:It's because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This isn't the 80s and 90s, China has a middle class now days and they have disposable income.

    3. Re:It's because... by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      The demand for conspicuous consumption among newly wealthy Chinese is even changing some of the retail market in Europe. Chinese tourists in Europe buy much more stuff than European and American tourists do, especially of the expensive stuff. So London high-street stores and French luxury-goods stores are retargeting their sales to aim more at Chinese. There are even luxury-shopping tours where you fly from China to Paris and get taken around to Louis Vuitton and the like, as a package deal (I guess you probably do also see the Eiffel Tower).

    4. Re:It's because... by rainer_d · · Score: 2
      And here in Switzerland, too.

      The people selling expensive (4 and 5-figure expensive) watches and jewelery to Chinese tourists here are making an absolute fortune these days.

      --
      Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
    5. Re: It's because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder what percentage of smartphones in China belong to people who have ever left the country. Why would somebody spend two months wages on an iPhone?

    6. Re:It's because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you Crazy? As for Cosmetics the Chinese go crazy for "skin whitening/softening" products and spend stupid amounts for them.
      From what i've seen they are not big on pets so i will give you that.

  5. My question... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    What somewhat surprises me is that Samsung's phones would be holding out against the torrent of slightly-to-substantially cheaper indigenous handsets in China. Sure, the quality can be somewhere between 'uneven' and 'totally fucking dire'; but Samsung's phones are also well known for being plasticky and horribly skinned, so they aren't competing that aggressively on quality.

    Am I being too harsh on Samsung? Are the local offerings Just That Dreadful?

    1. Re:My question... by RandomFactor · · Score: 1
      Maybe a little harsh... FTFA

      Samsung launched a China-only luxury smartphone together with China Telecom marketed by actor Jackie Chan that retails for about 12,000 yuan ($2,000). The flip phone, named âoeheart to the world,â is encased in a slim black and rose gold metal body. The sleek look â" called âoeda qiâ (elegantly grand) â" is coveted by Chinese when they shop for cars, sofas or phones.

      --
      --- Mercutio was right.
    2. Re:My question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A Chinese friend has showed me one of the knockoffs and they are not that bad. They can imitate the iPhone well. I've used Samsung and they are pretty good. All together, it doesn't look good for Apple, as seen in the numbers.

    3. Re:My question... by Sivaraj · · Score: 1

      The quality of chinese brands have improved significantly over the past year. Some of them are better built and much better looking than Samsung models. Especially the new ones with quadcore Mediatek MT6589 chipset and its variants have taken over the market by storm this year. The market here in India too is flooded with models having crazy specs (1.5GHz FHD 13Mpx/5Mpx 2GB/32GB for less than $300).

      One problem with these sets is that, you can't flash CyanogenMod or other ROMs. The Mediatek chipsets is not supported by CM and that company isn't sharing info.

    4. Re:My question... by obarthelemy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're mixing up "casing shininess" and "quality". I have a $200 cheap Chinese phone and a $600 (at the time) Galaxy Note (v1), and there's no doubt which is higher quality. The Samsung has a much better screen, camera, sound, buttons, touch reactivity and precision, extra apps. Both are wrapped in plastic though. Both do the job, though.

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    5. Re:My question... by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      A Chinese friend has showed me one of the knockoffs and they are not that bad.

      I would love to meet the people who engineer these knockoffs. :) What are their design processes, manufacturing deals, etc. Sadly this information probably avoids daylight as Apple would sue their ass.

    6. Re:My question... by Clsid · · Score: 2

      They might look kind of the same, but the Chinese are wary of locally manufactured products since they rather trust a foreign brand with the good quality controls than a local one that who knows what will happen. This is all over the spectrum here in China, from baby formula to beef and whatnot.

    7. Re:My question... by Clsid · · Score: 2

      You can go to Shenzhen and they will actually build a custom phone for you with whatever components you want. You see, in China you have places like a local fruit market but only that they have electronics, and you will see people running around, trying to tell you to buy their stuff. Everything is overpriced and you can always negotiate a 50% or even 75% discount on most stuff, but if you cannot find what you are looking for in a store, they will fetch it for you. These places have almost all electronics known to man :)

  6. "It's not totally clear why that occurred" by giorgist · · Score: 0

    Damned if he tells them, damned if he doesn't but it is pretty clear. The product is loosing it's "I gotta have it appeal" as well as the innovative lead as well as, wow that looks futuristic/different ... and they are doing nothing about it, partly because their spiritual leader has left down some laws that are hurting apple.

  7. Live in HK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I live in HK and can pretty much afford any phone. I use Android base phone. More freedom, more options and customisation features and plenty of Android devices to chose from. Most HK people are smart enough to use Android. Hence, Android phones win over here.

  8. Also... by fullback · · Score: 2

    There's a shift in China. Some foreign goods/brands remain as status symbols, but some are losing their luster.

    The U.S. has been acting like a bigger dick than usual lately. Chinese consumers would rather not buy American (or Japanese) brands when there's a choice. It doesn't matter that the dick's product are made in China.

    That's not my opinion, so don't get mad at me. That's what I was told when I was there last month.

    1. Re:Also... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fully agreed. I'll would use Asian made ARM/MIPS CPUs (instead of Intel) and everything else if I could get almost the same performance as "dick's".

      US deserves to be sanctioned. They have a horrible record at least here in Asia.

    2. Re:Also... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't attest for consumers but this is seemingly the attitude in industries where only a few strong personalities have majority control. We got a contract from a Chinese company simply because the only other alternative was an American company and they don't want to deal with the Americans because they disliked their government.

    3. Re:Also... by Clsid · · Score: 1

      I agree with you with the Japanese part, but even if the Chinese hate the Japanese, they still buy a whole lot of their stuff, especially all kinds of food products and restaurants. As for them boycotting American products, I haven't seen that even once, maybe Apple at some point when they realized they were not getting the same treatment as other nations, but that is as far as it goes. And while this is my opinion, I have been living here for quite a while now and have a lot of tech-saavy Chinese friends.

  9. Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

    Their "strategy" has been to position themselves as a high-end boutique brand. China (and most of the world) wants a solid affordably-priced workhorse. And in Asia Samsung almost certainly has a higher brand recognition than Apple just because they're relatively local (Korean vs. North American) and have been around a lot longer. To win, Apple would need to stop being Apple.

    1. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      I don't know if I'd say "boutique".

      Apple prides itself on its engineering, and "deceptive simplicity". The "it just works" strategy is behind most all of their products. And in many ways, that is a really great thing. And if you have a Mac at home and an iPhone or iPad, everything "just works together", too.

      But sadly, they've seen fit to combine the "just works" philosophy with a good bit of corporate lock-in, which does nobody any good but Apple, and probably not even Apple in the long term. It is easy to see that more people are buying Android phones now than iPhones, and if you ask them lots of them will say Android is "more open". That's a problem.

      (Before anybody jumps on me, I have definitely learned, that "more open" does not necessarily mean "all open". Google has been doing its share of "lock-in" too, but not as aggressively as Apple. If you want to be completely free of lock-in, you'll probably have to go with Cyanogenmod or wait for Firefox OS. Unfortunately Cyanogenmod does not, to the best of my knowledge, work with my current phone carrier.)

    2. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by obarthelemy · · Score: 2

      Indeed. And there's a big difference between being locked in to an ecosystem with a single vendor, expensive on top of that (iPhones for the whole family, at $600 a pop, then $1k+ Macs and MacBooks, $300 iPods, $400+ iPads), versus a multivendor ecosystem where I can get a $600 GS4 or HTC One, but also $200 phones for the kids, $100-200 tablets, $50 Android desktops... Sure, the quality of the cheap stuff is not the same, but the big difference is between having the stuff or not having it; how good the stuff is comes a very distant second. I got a phone, a tablet, a netbook, and an Android stick for less than the cost of a single 64GB iPhone...

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    3. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by narcc · · Score: 1

      Apple prides itself on its engineering, and "deceptive simplicity". The "it just works" strategy is behind most all of their products. And in many ways, that is a really great thing. And if you have a Mac at home and an iPhone or iPad, everything "just works together", too.

      Not quite. Apple's strategy is to create the myth of "deceptive simplicity" and "it just works". As any honest iPhone user will tell you, neither of those things are true.

      (Just an example: Putting music on an iPhone can only be described as frustrating; particularly if you're using a computer that is not your own. On an Android or BlackBerry phone, you simply copy it over like it's a flash drive. No hassle, no "syncing", and no clunky software required. It just works.)

      It's a bit like the old myth "Macs are better for graphics" which has never been true. It kept them alive through the 90's, though it almost wasn't enough. It'll be interesting to see how long they can ride the quality and easy-of-use myths.

    4. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      "... how good the stuff is comes a very distant second..."

      See, that statement needs a qualifier. Apple products are indeed well-engineered, but your typical everyday user may not appreciate that as much as, say a "developer". (Developer in quotes because these days it's a "politically correct" euphemism for programmer. I know, because I am one.)

      For a developer, an Apple machine is close to the best of all worlds. You get a very nice hardware platform, and the freedom to run everybody else's OS in a VM too. No other OS has as much flexibility in that particular regard, including Linux. Yes, you can do it in Linux too, but it's not the same. You can run Linux in a VM on a Mac far easier than you can run OS X in a VM on Linux, for example. And Windows? No contest. Apple machines are some of the best Windows machines on the market.

      On a Mac, you can install Windows in a "Boot Camp" partition, and dual-boot Windows. This is officially allowed (in contrast, dual-booting a Windows machine, according to Microsoft, is NEVER allowed). And that's all good. BUT... the real beauty of the Boot Camp system is that under OS X, I can install VMware and choose my Boot Camp partition as a VM to run. And this is what is cool about that:

      [1] If I want to run, just for example, graphics-intensive software (like some games) in Windows, I can boot up in windows and Just Do It. With ALL the hardware acceleration native Windows brings to the app. [2] If I don't need top performance, but just want to do something in Windows from time to time, I can simply start VMware, and use it to run the SAME copy of windows... all the settings and programs, same same... in a window under OS X.

      Microsoft doesn't allow that kind of thing at all, and Linux does not do it anywhere near as well. So from a developer's point of view, I say again: a Mac comes very close to the best of all worlds.

    5. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      "Just an example: Putting music on an iPhone can only be described as frustrating; particularly if you're using a computer that is not your own. On an Android or BlackBerry phone, you simply copy it over like it's a flash drive. No hassle, no "syncing", and no clunky software required. It just works."

      Myth yourself. Yes, when it comes to iTunes, I agree with you. But that falls under the "corporate lock-in" category I already described; it isn't true of the products in general. (FYI, I very seldom use iTunes myself. Apple tried to stuff way too much into one program and as a result fucked up most of it. I use iTunes to play music, PERIOD. And it's not even my default program for doing most of that.) But my point is: that's a software issue, not hardware, and it's one of those Apple glitches, not the rule. You can set up your Apple to use other programs, just as you do for Android. The stock players in Android ain't much better than iTunes.

      "It's a bit like the old myth "Macs are better for graphics" which has never been true."

      The hell it has never been true. Ask Hollywood.

      But it is also true that part of that reputation came from the fact that Macs had a GUI long before Microsoft did.

    6. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Clsid · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well if you are in China, you just fire up QQ Music and have all the music you want. If you are in the US you can use Spotify, or you can buy stuff from the iTunes store which I don't see as truly hard. Now if you want to pirate music and upload it to your device, you just copy that in iTunes and then sync, or where are you getting that flash drive music if it isn't from torrents or a physical CD?

      So really, drop the crap. Apple is overpriced and they like to lock you in, but saying that it is not simple to use is a flat out lie.

    7. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by gaiageek · · Score: 1

      (Just an example: Putting music on an iPhone can only be described as frustrating; particularly if you're using a computer that is not your own. On an Android or BlackBerry phone, you simply copy it over like it's a flash drive. No hassle, no "syncing", and no clunky software required. It just works.)

      I was also going to mention this point. For a region where pirated media is the norm, it must certainly be unappealing to have transfer it from a computer using iTunes. One of the most ridiculous things I find about iPhones is the inability to simply download and save an mp3 file from a website: you can play it, but if actually want to save it, you have to get a special app, and then you can only download the mp3 and play it from within that app. Given that people are increasingly relying on their smartphone as their primary computer or even their only computer, this issue can't be overlooked, especially if Apple is going to begin trying to compete with Android on price (which I think is the main reason China prefers Android).

    8. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Clsid · · Score: 1

      But think about it? Only a techie would want to do such thing. A regular folk would just save a bookmark and be done with it. But as for the Chinese, there is no need to do that since you get all the music for free here even if you are using 3G connections. It's called QQ Music.

    9. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by RCL · · Score: 1

      I agree with that statement, but Macs come with a pretty hefty pricetag. In the country I currently reside (Poland) a Mac that can do all the aforementioned things costs you more than a typical monthly developer salary (which is averaging a bit below $2k/month). For the same price, you can get a monster PC here.

      What iOS developers normally do here is getting used hardware (particularly Mac minis) for development while keeping PCs as their main machines. I have seen people who could afford (in my opinion) getting a "normal" Mac do this.

    10. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      You're right, Apple products are very good for some specific uses. But Apple need broad markets to maintain their growth and profits, I doubt all Devs + all Musicians + half of all Graphics/Video Artists would be enough. For Joe Publics like me, buying Apple means getting luxury products at luxury prices, and getting locked into a system where there are *only* luxury products at luxury prices, even the apps and accessories/peripherals are more expensive. Add to that a few irritating drawbacks (I put the biggest SDs I can in all my devices because I'm often not on-line, I find all-in-ones a very bad choice, I need a server with oodles of hard drives...). As for MS forbidding dual-booting, that's the first I heard of it. I even remember reading they gave keys to some Linux outfit so that you could dual-boot w/o even disabling SecureBoot. Apple on the other end, make it illegal to install their OS on non-Apple hardware, as far as I recall.

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    11. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Bongo · · Score: 1

      You can make some things simpler at the expence of others. Like sandboxing on OS X, it makes some security issues simpler for the user, but it is also harder for other things to work, such as key macro apps.

      The design decisions about how to get the balance right are not easy, also because you are setting a precedent which may work out ok down the line. So if apps no longer can rely on the user being able to do stuff via the filesystem, then app developers can focus on creating other, hopefully better ways of doing stuff.

      At the end of the day, a thing has to take a form, a shape, a configuration. Someone has to decide on a bus how many seats to provide, how much luggage space, how much room for prams, how much for wheelchairs. For many then it "just works" unless you have some other more unusual need which doesn't fit the profile of the average bus user.

      It is debatable whether Apple has succeeded in catering well to the public.

    12. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, thats exactly one of the things a regular user would want to do. Why the hell do you think youtube downloaders and Youtube MP3 rippers are so popular? Its not to save the videos, its to save the music/audio stream from the video.

      A regular user would -not- want to deal with the 3rd party app, thats the problem with iOS. You have to use that 3rd party app even when the MP3 is plainly accessible.

    13. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Hollywood and the rest of the graphics industry went to Windows (for individual stuff) and Linux (for heavy lifting) long ago.

      Yes, there is a OS X presence, it's just a pale shadow of it's former glory. Apple squandered their lead about a decade ago with their dick waving contest with Adobe (may their soul rot in hell) and the loss of the X server.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    14. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well if you are in China, you just fire up QQ Music and have all the music you want. If you are in the US you can use Spotify, or you can buy stuff from the iTunes store which I don't see as truly hard. Now if you want to pirate music and upload it to your device, you just copy that in iTunes and then sync, or where are you getting that flash drive music if it isn't from torrents or a physical CD?

      So really, drop the crap. Apple is overpriced and they like to lock you in, but saying that it is not simple to use is a flat out lie.

      Apple is simple to use IF you're already locked in the Apple ecosystem.
      You said so yourself, transfer music from the computer to the Iphone VIA itunes. WTF ?
      On Android I just copy the music files directly over to the smartphone and that is it. It works on Os X, it works on Windows and it works on Linux. As easy as it gets.

      Appletards can't get it through their fucking minds that people like choice. Choice is good. Choice won't kill you. Some may like the golden cage that Apple offers and it is good for them. But seeing how some people that buy Apple then proceed to jailbreak the device because they find the golden restriction uhm RESTRICTIVE should give you pause for thought.

    15. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      Visio bitches every time i run my Win 7 Boot camp install as a VM. It has to re-authenticate every single time.

      --
      Good-bye
    16. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      I think you underestimate how many people dont understand how to handle files AT ALL. My wife, a corporate professional of 20+ years will re-download the same .doc from the link in her email instead of going and finding the one she originally downloaded in her downloads folder. I'll find 8 copies of the same resume on her computer. She has no interest in learning how a computer works, or increasing her skill set. She, like most of humanity, wait for us to make it stupid simple for them. This is why Apple has spent the last decade abstracting the file system away.

      --
      Good-bye
    17. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you underestimate how many people dont understand how to handle files AT ALL. My wife, a corporate professional of 20+ years will re-download the same .doc from the link in her email instead of going and finding the one she originally downloaded in her downloads folder. I'll find 8 copies of the same resume on her computer. She has no interest in learning how a computer works, or increasing her skill set. She, like most of humanity, wait for us to make it stupid simple for them. This is why Apple has spent the last decade abstracting the file system away.

      Android doesn't abstract the file system and the Green Robot smartphones sell like hotcakes. So who is right ? Windows has never abstracted the file system, neither Os 9/X and people still use those systems.
      Apple has done a great deal of convincing the masses that you don't need certain things on a smartphone, especially if those things give the customer an advantage over Apple. As long as Apple didn't have serious competition that was it take it or leave it. But Android hasn't copied the Apple mantra of less is more and we see people appreciating this philosophy and gasp buying the smartphones.
      I've said it before, if you already like Apple as a status symbol, as something cool, as something that just works (except when it doesn't especially if you try to interoperate with something that isn't Apple), as something over which you have no control whatsoever then go ahead buy it. But most customers don't like this kinf of gnome-esque bullyinh attitude. And so they go over Android. Yes it is less polished, yes the terminals don't use aluminium or glass. But they give you freedom. And freedom is as good a motiviator for buying something as anything else. And Apple customers can't just come to terms with this.

    18. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So Apple's big selling feature now that they use Intel chips is bootcamp and its ability to run windows? If one wanted to run windows why not just buy a windows PC for 1/2 the price? Under windows i'm unable to load OSX under VMWARE due to the DSMOS module and the OS' hardware checks. (yeah, i know it can be done but its time consuming).
      Good thing Microsoft doesn't have similar restrictions?

    19. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      A decade before that it was all Amiga and video toaster.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    20. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by dinfinity · · Score: 1

      My wife, a corporate professional of 20+ years will re-download the same .doc from the link in her email instead of going and finding the one she originally downloaded in her downloads folder.

      Because it is easier. Not necessarily because she doesn't understand the concept of file management.

      I redownload small files all the time. Why try to remember some (obscure) filename of a PDF of some article that takes maybe a second to download and look for it in the most unorganized directory in my entire filesystem when I can remember how I got it in the first place and redownload it?
      When I want to save a certain file for posterity, then I copy or save it to its proper place in my local storage. Until then it is 'Unprocessed' and may as well not exist on my hard drive.

      She has no interest in learning how a computer works, or increasing her skill set. She, like most of humanity, wait for us to make it stupid simple for them.

      Does she organize her physical things? Ask yourself what is keeping her from organizing her digital things, or better: ask her how she organizes her digital things. My bet is that she sees her email client as a method of organization. I would be surprised if she didn't already use various forms of hierarchical organization in different aspects of life, which leads me to saying that I don't like the idea of 'abstracting the file system away'.

      What I think is going on is that 'file systems' have generally been littered with all kinds of things users did not put there. Instead of being faced with a nice clean desk and empty closets to put their stuff in, people have been confronted with piles of unrecognizable at that time meaningless shit among which they could find (or be told of) a place for their own things.

    21. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      He is talking bullshit. You can dual-boot Windows and Linux on the same machine just like you have been able to do since like forever. I do this in the PC I built from components a couple of months back as well as on my Acer laptop. The difference is that instead of using GRUB you are often forced to use the UEFI BIOS bootloader if you use Windows 7 or later. You can run VMWare just fine either on Linux or on Windows. The only advantage he has is that he can boot in MacOS X as well but that is due to Apple not allowing you to run MacOS X on 3rd party hardware. They enforce that with their software license. But why should I want to run MacOS X anyway? There are multimedia apps for Windows as well. Like the entire Adobe suite, or all the Autodesk products. There are so much more games for Windows it isn't funny. Plus Linux is a lot better suited for high-end software development and server loads than MacOS X will ever be. I get enough headaches from using 2 different environments. I have little desire to use 3 different environments. Rebooting kills productivity and VMWare is not perfect.

    22. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Holywood? Back in the early 90s they were using Silicon Graphics workstation running IRIX then they moved to Windows NT and Linux. I am fairly certain a lot of them moved to MacOS X workstations after those became available like a decade ago but this is more of a recent development than you think it is. You might just as well be using Windows. The heavy lifting server workloads are done using Linux. Had Adobe ported their software suite for Linux over half of the Apple workstation market would implode overnight.

    23. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Well, in the less-than-ideal real world, another option is to make a "hackintosh". That is to say, a "generic" hardware machine running OS X.

      It isn't "officially" allowed, but it can work very well. I know somebody who builds and sells them. Often you can get the same performance for far less money, but you have to choose your hardware very carefully.

    24. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "He is talking bullshit. You can dual-boot Windows and Linux on the same machine just like you have been able to do since like forever."

      Try reading what I actually wrote. I didn't say it wasn't possible, or even difficult. I wrote that it "isn't officially allowed".

      The rest of your comment is similar BS. If I were you I would work on my reading comprehension.

    25. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Hollywood and the rest of the graphics industry went to Windows (for individual stuff) and Linux (for heavy lifting) long ago.

      Yes, there is a OS X presence, it's just a pale shadow of it's former glory."

      Okay, but that isn't arguing with me, you are affirming what I wrote. Yes, they did. Or Linux. And yes, it is. No argument there. But "a long time" is not "never", which is what I was replying to.

    26. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Yes, but this is out of context.

      The person I was replying to was saying that good Apple graphics is a "myth". My point was that no, it is not a myth. They did have a GUI before Microsoft, which is part of where that rep came from. And for a while there, early on, its graphics were superior.

      And then later, Mac Pro workstations were again good professional graphics machines, at a price point lower than Silicon Graphics. Not the "best" maybe, but still good professional graphics machines, which few other stock PCs could touch for anything like the same price.

      No, Apple has not always had the best graphics. But at times it definitely had better graphics than standard commercially-available PCs. So no, it's not a "myth".

    27. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by RMingin · · Score: 1

      Vmware is the magic sauce in your scenario, not OSX. I can boot Linux, reboot to Win8, or boot my Win8 install as a VM. It's very, very simple to set up. I also installed OSX in a VM under Linux on my machine, no hackery needed at install time and only one, one-time hack was needed to enable OSX support in VMware.

      The difference between you and I is that while I pay for my OSes, I find the terms and conditions of their EULAs unreasonable to such a degree that I simply dismiss and disregard them, and am prepared to make that same statement in court.

      --
      The preceding comment is my own, and in no way construes an opinon of the Emperor of Mankind.
    28. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Well if you are in China, you just fire up QQ Music and have all the music you want. If you are in the US you can use Spotify, or you can buy stuff from the iTunes store which I don't see as truly hard. Now if you want to pirate music and upload it to your device, you just copy that in iTunes and then sync, or where are you getting that flash drive music if it isn't from torrents or a physical CD?

      So really, drop the crap. Apple is overpriced and they like to lock you in, but saying that it is not simple to use is a flat out lie.

      Things like putting a song onto an Iphone isn't hard, it just uses several steps you shouldn't have to. Why do you need a bit of software to load it on there for you, MTP works out of the box with Windows and Linux, has done for years.

      But this is only for simple things, if you want to do anything remotely complex or involved, Apple makes it 10 times harder than it should. Last time I checked you couldn't use your MP3's as a ring tone, getting the WiFi hotspot working was annoying at best (here the lack of options hindered you, auto-generating the password conflicts with Windows saving WiFi passwords by default), you cant manage your files outside of the application they are meant to be used in and having to go through itunes for almost everything is annoying at best (especially when you work on multiple computers).

      Then you have features Apple flat out refuses to implement, like MSC or MTP so the device can be used as portable storage.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    29. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      I redownload small files all the time. Why try to remember some (obscure) filename of a PDF of some article that takes maybe a second to download and look for it in the most unorganized directory in my entire filesystem when I can remember how I got it in the first place and redownload it?

      My thoughts exactly. I keep files that I create organized into fairly complex hierarchical structures. Random downloads, however, are unimportant and do not get that level of care. If it is easier to download than to find the file (which translates "if it is less than a few tens of megabytes"), I'll just download it again. Every couple of years, I go through and toss out everything in my Downloads folder. It's easier than trying to maintain any sort of order in a background-priority work queue.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    30. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would everyone in the family need an iPod if they also all had iPhones, iPads, and MacBooks?

    31. Re:Apple doesn't have a strategy for winning here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've never used KVM or Xen directly on a Linux host then because that's where the real VM power is. Using Parallels on a Mac is nothing compared the throughput and control you have with Linux KVM or XEN. Windows 7/8 is also specially optimized to run on Linux host and you can get near bare-metal performance depending on your CPU and GPU.

      However, I do agree that Windows blows at everything and can't do anything right...
       

  10. the answer is easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    For most Chinese people an iPhone costs too much money.

  11. Innovation by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

    It seems all the American manfuctors are like Acer trying to outdo each other with who can make each product the cheapest. Dell and HP typically will pick components on who can make it $.005 cheaper than the rest and then wonder why marketshare is failing.

    It is an extreme version of Milton Friedman economic theory where consumers will always buy the largest quantity of the cheapest product in a linear fashion.

    Apple I would say is the exception and why they took over the market. Samsun however is now outdoing Apple. Where competitors never thought about the case and saved $.005 by using the cheapest plastic from China (not luxury plastic from Mexico as tthe workers demand more than $1 an hour ...), Samsung made polycarbonite compsities.

    While the industry in the 2000s focused on cheap green screens and 8 colors, Samsung focused on 1080p and high pixel densisity. Samsung led the way with bigger screens too.

    Samsung's marketshare is well deserved and they are even beating Apple today where they have tiny screens and are lacking in features.

    1. Re:Innovation by taiwanjohn · · Score: 0

      American manfuctors are like Acer

      First of all, "manfuctors"???

      Second of all, Acer is American? That would be news to the Taiwanese guy who founded it. ;-)

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
    2. Re: Innovation by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

      He said they are like Acer, that is not saying Acer us USian if you read carefully.

      --
      IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    3. Re:Innovation by Clsid · · Score: 1

      Keep an eye on Lenovo, they are entering the mobile market in China with some very good products that can easily displace Samsung. I have tried one of them and it is the same as a Galaxy with a cheaper price, and none of the lower quality issues of other Chinese manufacturers.

    4. Re:Innovation by thejynxed · · Score: 1

      This. Every Lenovo product I've used so far has been of excellent build quality. I've actually closely examined their motherboards, etc and all chips, etc have been clearly labeled in English (all of the internal ports, etc were also labeled clearly), and were not "off-brand" knockoffs, but actually parts from Samsung, Hynix, etc.

      They didn't even skimp on the CPU/case fans, but used an aftermarket fan instead of the craptastic ones Intel normally provides, and used Masscool fans for the case.

      I have a theory that this is because Lenovo takes the issue of quality/pricing very seriously, especially in areas where it may affect their reputation. They took over the PC business from IBM and seem to have improved upon it, if anything.

      --
      @Mindless Drivel: 100% of Twitter posts ever Tweeted.
  12. Is that part of an overall prediction? by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 0, Troll

    Is Apple on the way down, now that Steve Jobs is dead?

    1. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Apple needs more variants of the iPhone and iPad, for starters bigger versions. iPhone is so small, why not make a bigger version?? Just like we have more car variants, some prefer pickup trucks.., you know, Mr. Cook.

    2. Re:Is that part of an overall prediction? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Honestly, I don't think so. Steve's passing seems to have caused a pretty large hiccup, but I would not start betting on their demise just yet.

    3. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or vagina.

    4. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by Clsid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I believe the iPhone size is pretty good. In fact, a cell phone with a screen bigger than 4,3 feels oversized in my opinion.

    5. Re:Is that part of an overall prediction? by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      Yes, but it's a long, slow path.

    6. Re:Is that part of an overall prediction? by MTEK · · Score: 1

      The last words of Steve Jobs may have well been "good luck, Tim . I'm outta here". I wouldn't want to go up against Samsung. When it comes to maintaining brand-image, they're not as clueless as Microsoft. I wouldn't count Apple out either, but it's going to be tough.

    7. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, because this size suits you, it should suit everyone and Apple should only make phones of that size?

      Typical Appletard.
      Choice = bad.
      What Apple gives = what everyone should/must like.

    8. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by ehiris · · Score: 1

      the iPhone size is awful. Can't read books on it easily. My S3 and S4 perform that function beautifully. Scrolling through pages with the thumb is a lot nicer than having to hold a tablet and mimic an actual book.

    9. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why in the hell is this modded +5 Insightful? It's a completely unsupported opinion that I, for one, disagree with.

      The iPhone is too small, I have large hands and I need a bigger screen size so the multitouch feature doesn't screw me. Tiny phones are for girls.

      Where's my +5 mod?

    10. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by rainer_d · · Score: 1
      No, but I'd really hate it if the "flagship" phone was bigger than the iPhone5.
      I don't read books on it (I do that on my 24" iMac) or buy a real book. For what I do (some Mail, reading slashot and a couple of other sites, WeatherPro, some other apps and a couple of games - and phoning people, receiving calls) the size of the screen on my iPhone 4S is big enough. I don't want to lug around anything bigger.
      If I wanted to, I'd have bought an iPad Mini long ago.
      I also don't need a stylus (I don't need or want to run rdesktop on my phone, like the co-worker with the SG Note 2 does).

      Given Apple's latest quarterly numbers, there seem to be at least a couple of other people who think likewise.
      There is a market for "phat" phones - but I doubt it's much larger than the vocal audience that continues to push these phones.

      --
      Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
    11. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by BasilBrush · · Score: 0

      For people who think the iPhone is too small for reading books, there's the iPad Mini and the iPad full size. For which there are of course scrolling readers as well as paging ones, if that's their preference.

    12. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the question is do people want a cell phone or do they want mobile computers.

    13. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Not sure why this was modded insightful. It's pure opinion, and the proliferation of 5" smartphones suggests yours is not universally shared. Opinion is not insight. Interesting, perhaps.

      For what it's worth I find 5" to be ideal - I can reach all areas with one hand and type comfortably, with a nice large display to show detail on maps and a less cramped keyboard. 4.3" seems cramped.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    14. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by Teun · · Score: 1
      It seems the Ubuntu Edge is trying to answer that question by being both.

      As electronics get smaller it is now possible to build the power of a computer in the form factor of a phone and there is a market for it.

      Of course it remains to be seen if Canonical will get to it's US$32 million in 21 days from now...
      I can easily predict this is only the first of such offerings, I sincerely hope it will be a Linux device that is successful and not an MS-Nokia.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    15. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by binarylarry · · Score: 2

      And they fit so snugly within the over sized pockets of my new iPants!

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    16. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      You don't get a +5 mod, because you disagree with Apple, therefore, you're wrong.

      </sarcasm>

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    17. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cell phone? There are people that use iPhone as a consumption device, not a mere phone, in fact like 90% of the time, Samsung understands this better, this a sign that Apple is losing it.

    18. Re:Is that part of an overall prediction? by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      I would not start betting on their demise just yet.

      But I would bet on their continuing descent into irrelevance. Apple is already something your mom is more likely to own than you.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    19. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by Vastad · · Score: 1

      Neither the iPad Mini nor the iPad fully function as a mobile phone. You haven't offered an alternative, you've completely ignored a key factor and still not accounted for calligraphy.

      The iPhone 5 has a 4" screen, but with weird dimensions of 640x1136. That's pretty narrow, though I'll readily admit I used to read on my iPod Touch with a very small font. Still, I find it an odd design move.

      I currently have the Google Galaxy Nexus at 4.65" with the movie friendly 720x1280 that's wider in portrait mode, the way most people would read on a mobile phone. It's not an unwieldy pocket-choking phone, especially when not in a third party protective case.

      The S4 at 5" with a true-to-pixel HD 1080x1920 comes next in size. Having played with one, I find it still doesn't feel to unwieldy at only .35" bigger than my Nexus.

      Finally for that next step up - and note it is a fully functional mobile phone and not a tablet with Skype to make it a "phone" - is the Samsung Note II. This time with a resistive screen that is better suited for use with a stylus - which comes with it's own spring-loaded dock within the casing of the phone. Now, that does feel big. Kinda like those big wide men's wallets that are meant for big trenchcoat pockets or a briefcase. Also dangerously close to that Nokia N-Gage "side-talking" feeling when used as a phone. No argument there, it's on the big side. But you know what? Those bluetooth earpieces are all over Singapore and I imagine China and Taiwan are no different.

    20. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by txibi · · Score: 1

      Those are the same people that think that the iPad is too big to make phone calls...

    21. Re: Is that part of an overall prediction? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Neither the iPad Mini nor the iPad fully function as a mobile phone.

      They don't have to. The iPhone is for that.

      There is no one mobile device, from any manufacturer, with any OS, that is ideal for all uses. They are all compromises. You pick the device for the particular set of compromises you want. Or you buy (and carry) more than one.

  13. scale by Tom · · Score: 0

    Help! The sky is falling! A companies revenue in one country now only dwarves 62 countries!

    They should be worried, shouldn't they? With that sharp decline, their revenue in China is now "only" equal to the yearly income of 870 thousand chinese (or 92 thousand americans).

    I will readily admit I'm an Apple fan. But wtf is this article? A piece of whining, like a super-rich complaining that this years champagne doesn't taste as nice as last years'. I don't think the author has a grasp for the numbers he posted.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    1. Re:scale by lxs · · Score: 1

      Yeah who cares about China? They have no exports and not many people live there anyway.

    2. Re:scale by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      Uh, weird spastic response there guy.

      Regardless of any outside comparisons a 43% revenue drop in a region as populous as greater china is an eyebrow raiser. Investors aren't lure by how much you make, it's by how much you GROW and the growing chinese middle class is a tasty market to gain traction in. Being shown to be slipping in that market is not the end of the world, but it is definitely significant when it is a market where you previously had more significant presence.

      Granted this isn't a sudden panic worthy event but it is still news, and important news at that to those watching the world markets.

    3. Re: scale by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

      Those talking about revenue are condemned to misunderstand profits.

      Also China isn't just any market for reasons that should be obvious.

      Finally this is part of a clear downward spiral for Apple. It may be elitist talk about expensive gadgets, but that is the topic of the thread, isn't it?

      --
      IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    4. Re:scale by SpinyNorman · · Score: 1

      The story is clearly about the competition between Apple and Samsung, and fact is that Samsung now makes more profit ($5B last in most recent quarter - that's earnings, not revenue) from smart phones than Apple does.

      Apple has mostly saturated the US market and to save the stcok price from collapsing needs to find other markets for growth... China was one big hope, but it appears it's not happening. That's certainly news.

    5. Re:scale by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Help! The sky is falling! A companies revenue in one country now only dwarves 62 countries!

      Bizzare. Why link to a dodgy souce like that (that gives out-of-date figures) rather than linking to a dodgy source like this that has up-to-date figures?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    6. Re:scale by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      I think, although they don't say, the conservapedia values must be PPP, not nominal, so the wikipedia version is here.

      Also coservapedia seems just to have gone down. Maybe they don't work Sundays?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    7. Re:scale by gaiageek · · Score: 1

      1. Investors are obsessed with growth. Obviously China is the biggest growth market there is. If you hadn't noticed, Apple's stock has gone from its all time high of $700 a mere 10 months ago to its current price of $440.

      2. Every report that comes out saying Android has gained more market share makes it appear as though Apple is losing the war for the hearts and minds of mobile phone users -- and people tend to have an aversion to joining the "losing" team. The fact that Apple has massive profits, as you pointed out, is not exactly a selling point to consumers.

      Don't worry, I'm sure you'll still be able to buy Apple hardware for years to come, but it's increasingly looking like the case in 5-10 years will be that iPhones have a 10% market share a la Windows vs. Mac, but this time around, instead of Apple being the product of choice for hip artsy types because "it's better for music and graphic design", it will be the product of choice for old fartsy types (like my parents) because "I don't want to learn something new".

    8. Re:scale by Tom · · Score: 1

      Investors aren't lure by how much you make, it's by how much you GROW

      Good thing we listen to the mindset, culture and in many cases even the same people that brought us the financial crisis that has been devastating the west for years now.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    9. Re:scale by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, nice emotional hot button but it has nothing to do with the concept in question! The point of accepting outside investment is to try to grow your company. The investors know that they may receive dividends off profit, but that the more significant return on investment is when the overall value of the company grows from the point they join in on investing.

      This has nothing to do with culture or the financial crisis, thats simply what investment IS. In fact, if it weren't the case and there was no such thing as share value and the only thing investors were somehow legislated to only get dividends on profit, they would be even MORE concerned about a significant drop in revenue.

    10. Re:scale by Tom · · Score: 2

      The problem is growth on growth.

      Investors do not just expect to get a return on their investment, they expect that this return continuously increases. The reverse is true of the shadow of growth - the news in my country barely ever report how much debt the government is taking again, the number everyone focusses on is not only new debt, but whether or not that increases or decreases ("yeay! the government has reduced the additional debt this year!" - translation: We are not paying back our debt. We are increasing our debt. We are just increasing it a little less then last year.)

      Same with investment, just a bit less obvious. If I invest $100 in your company today, and I get $10 in dividends a year, I break even after 10 years and after that, my profit grows every year. So this whining isn't about decreasing profits, but about a decrease in the increase of profit. The company is still making money and so are its investors. It's just less then before.

      The stock market, of course, is a 2nd and 3rd (options) derivative game, so growth of growth is considered vital because that's how the system works. That doesn't mean it has any meaning outside of it.

      The culture I referred to was that we've allowed the casino to dominate the real economy.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    11. Re:scale by m.dillon · · Score: 1

      Actually Samsung doesn't. You are quoting a widely disseminated piece that itself quoted incorrect statistics and had a misleading title. The original was corrected but the media tends to only propagate the more sensationalist titles and articles.

      Part of the problem in today's world is being able to distinguish truth from fiction. Even when using valid data, it is always possible to quote a particular statistic out of context to make it appear that the data supports a story when, in fact, it doesn't.

      In this particular situation the roles are actually reversed. Samsung has become more defensive, willing to chop margins to try to gain footholds in markets, and Apple pretty much beats the shit out of all of its competitors when it comes to margins and real profit.

      -Matt

    12. Re:scale by danaris · · Score: 1

      1. Investors are obsessed with growth. Obviously China is the biggest growth market there is. If you hadn't noticed, Apple's stock has gone from its all time high of $700 a mere 10 months ago to its current price of $440.

      Right, because it was the victim of a pump-and-dump scheme by some influential pundits. There is absolutely nothing about Apple's actual actions or prospects that drove the massive fluctuations in its stock.

      2. Every report that comes out saying Android has gained more market share makes it appear as though Apple is losing the war for the hearts and minds of mobile phone users -- and people tend to have an aversion to joining the "losing" team. The fact that Apple has massive profits, as you pointed out, is not exactly a selling point to consumers.

      Don't worry, I'm sure you'll still be able to buy Apple hardware for years to come, but it's increasingly looking like the case in 5-10 years will be that iPhones have a 10% market share a la Windows vs. Mac, but this time around, instead of Apple being the product of choice for hip artsy types because "it's better for music and graphic design", it will be the product of choice for old fartsy types (like my parents) because "I don't want to learn something new".

      Except that there's no evidence that that's the direction things are headed in. Samsung isn't gaining marketshare at Apple's expense—it's gaining marketshare at the expense of all the other players in the market, and by expanding the market to new customers on the low end.

      Dan Aris

      --
      Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
    13. Re:scale by gaiageek · · Score: 1

      Except that there's no evidence that that's the direction things are headed in. Samsung isn't gaining market share at Apple's expense—it's gaining market share at the expense of all the other players in the market, and by expanding the market to new customers on the low end.

      Dan Aris

      I think you just contradicted yourself. Yes, Android is gaining global market share, largely due to it's dominance in countries like China -- that was my point, and it seems you agree. If this plays out as it has been (Android gaining a few percentage points of market share each quarter), and looking at the global picture (i.e. the billions in the developing world who will upgrade from their dumbphone to a cheap Android smartphone) things are definitely moving in the direction of iPhones having only 10% of the global smartphone market share. For evidence, according to Gartner, the iPhone had 9% market share of all mobile phone (smart and dumb phone) sales in the first quarter of 2013. Of global smartphone market it share, it dropped from 22.5% to 18.2% in the course of a year (Q1 2012 to Q2 2013), and in that same time, Android increased from 56.9% to 74.4% smartphone market share.

      The point, in case it wasn't clear, is that in 5-10 years, Apple will have 10% of the smartphone market share (and in 5-10 years, all phones will be smartphones). Looking at the numbers above, it looks more like they'll be lucky to have even that in 5 years.

  14. Why not by Jawcracker+Fuzz · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Just sue everyone in the orient for using the wrong phone? Or did they try that already I forget?

  15. Apple's strategy is the same everywhere by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Make as good a product as they can, and let profit follow.

    Marketshare is not a concern to Apple.

    Also, unless you have shut yourself off from the internet, you cannot help but see ENDLESS waves of rumors about some kind of cheaper Apple phone on the way, which would pretty obviously be another strategy to get more customers in China.

    It's funny how everyone frames it as a battle against Samsung, when over time Samsung is but one of many players in China that influence how Apple sells products.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Apple's strategy is the same everywhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This article has nothing to do with market share. Its about profit, pure and simple. Whereas Samsung is posting large profits and larger volumes, Apple's profits are getting less and less which means they are losing market and also means they are not selling the volume needed to keep their insane profits. It's catching up to them. 5 years, they are in trouble if not just a niche company.

    2. Re:Apple's strategy is the same everywhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Make as cheap and overpriced a product as they can, and let profit follow. There, fixed that for you!

    3. Re:Apple's strategy is the same everywhere by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "It's funny how everyone frames it as a battle against Samsung, when over time Samsung is but one of many players in China that influence how Apple sells products."

      Not entirely, because Apple and Samsung have had an on-again, off-again, love-hate relationship.

      The reason is that Apple has often contracted with Samsung for critical components of Apple products. However, they often compete with one another on finished products. That makes for strange bedfellows.

    4. Re:Apple's strategy is the same everywhere by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Make as good a product as they can, and let profit follow.

      Marketshare is not a concern to Apple.

      Apple tried this before, and it nearly destroyed them. When market share is not a concern, it soon plummets to 0%.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    5. Re:Apple's strategy is the same everywhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Make as good a product as they can, and let profit follow.

      Marketshare is not a concern to Apple.

      That was the strategy they took with their computers as well in the mid-1980s onwards. The company nearly collapsed by the nineties thanks to it, and even today their market share is a small fraction of the Windows PC's. If they keep this up, they'll wind up in the same situation they were in when John Sculley was CEO, and this time, Steve cannot return to bail them out.

    6. Re:Apple's strategy is the same everywhere by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

      Apple's profits have continued to grow each quarter, so your post is totally wrong...

      Perhaps you meant profit margins? But then that would also mean your post was wrong.

      So either way, you are in for a big surprise over the next few years.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    7. Re:Apple's strategy is the same everywhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no point in 100% market share if you are making zero %0 profits.

      In 10 years Samsung will declare bankruptcy.

    8. Re:Apple's strategy is the same everywhere by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      What? Before Jobs returned to Apple their OS and products stunk to heaven. No protected memory, no preemptive multitasking. About comparable with Windows 3.0 They were _not_ making good products.

      The Macidiots still claimed they were the ones with a stable OS, even as they rebooted.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    9. Re:Apple's strategy is the same everywhere by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      It might have been their stated strategy, but they executed terribly without Jobs. Look at their failed attempts at making a decent OS prior to X. It was laughable.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    10. Re:Apple's strategy is the same everywhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Marketshare is not a concern to Apple.

      Could of fooled me. Considering Apple's non-stop crap-flood of bogus lawsuits over rounded corners, and other such "inventions" that have tons of prior art. Lawsuits designed to prevent competitors from selling products.

      Seems to me that Apple is very concerned about their market share.

    11. Re:Apple's strategy is the same everywhere by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Make as good a product as they can, and let profit follow.

      So why does Apple keep making those clunky, unpowered handsets with tiny screens? Good enough strategy when there was no other high end smart phone worthy of the name, but that was then.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  16. why apple is falling in china? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    China / HK market asks for the latest toys, and they feel that bigger is better : they need to compensate.
    When I went to HK in february, I was surprised to keep seeing people with samsung note 2 or something like that.
    Apple has only one phone, called the same, with not much variation between one model and the model+1.

  17. because chinese have no quality standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    seriously, read the book "poorly made in china" for example. everyone agrees that china is on the rise, becoming the new "superpower". but all what they can do is to copy and manufactur as cheap as possible. without innovators from other countries they wouldnt have any product there. samsung is just cheaper, in price and quality, thats the reason.

    1. Re:because chinese have no quality standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There was a time when "Made in Japan" meant copycat designs and dodgy quality. There was a time when "Made in Korea" meant the same. It is a learning process. China, India, and one day Africa, are on track.

    2. Re:because chinese have no quality standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      neither does apple, over 2/3's of their products in the companies lifetime has had a fatal flaw, but its been neglected over style

    3. Re:because chinese have no quality standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yea, its a lot easier when someone does the hard work for you

      its another to innovate, that's why japan and korea have managed to make a foothold in the market, but during the same given time china and africa are still shitting in holes in the ground

    4. Re:because chinese have no quality standards by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      It's not that everything made in China is cheap crap. They target the quality and price point that the customer orders.

    5. Re:because chinese have no quality standards by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      And, lest anyone forget, there was a time when "made in USA" meant copycat designs and dodgy quality.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    6. Re:because chinese have no quality standards by dk20 · · Score: 1

      Exactly.... Its the "importers" who are pricing the work out to Chinese manufacturers based on lowest cost. I'm not aware of any chinese manufacture who sells directly to the end customers in NA (I'm sure they would like to as that is where the margins are).

    7. Re:because chinese have no quality standards by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      How many years did Japan make crap before going upmarket? China is clearly lagging.

      Africa on track? To what? Seriously.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    8. Re:because chinese have no quality standards by dk20 · · Score: 1

      Its funny as the US now has some of the most strict IP laws in the world. Not that long ago they were known for ruthless infringement.

  18. Stagnation by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    If you got into an Apple store, its rows of the same generation of products. If you have not bought into the cult or are on the upgrade cycle, its a hard sell to convert a new user at the price point with the same old OS/look/feel/range.
    Samsung has products ranging from:
    low cost glossy colour clamshell phones with the basic functionality a user needs at the local price point.
    mid range tablet like products
    larger size tablets
    Buying Samsung feels good at any price and has a new feel about it.
    Now you also have the NSA "inside" branding.
    Apple cannot go too cheap, no can it clutter up its product lines again, some may recall the Performa years.
    Better, longer local ads? Or learn from a UK drugmaker on how to "grow sales volume" with a nice bump to 'prices" in China?

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    1. Re:Stagnation by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Buying Samsung feels good at any price and has a new feel about it."

      Definitely a matter of opinion. As another /.er has pointed out, to many people Samsung products have a "plasticky, cheap" feel to them.

      Case in point: I recently bought a used Samsung air conditioner. (I didn't buy it because it was Samsung; I bought it because somebody was selling a used air conditioner.) The basic mechanical (i.e., compressor, heat exchangers, etc.) are fine. But the fit and finish sucks. The whole faceplate with the air vanes etc. was cheaply made, and the internal plastic parts it mounted to bent over time, to the extent that I had to jerry-rig the "fresh air/circulate" mechanism so it would even work.

      Granted, when you are a company that makes everything from backhoes to washing machines to TVs and smartphones, you probably won't make everything well. But I suspect that Samsung makes pretty much all of its products good, but not great.

    2. Re:Stagnation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have to understand though, when it comes to these massive conglomerates under the same name, the different divisions are similar in name only. It may as well be a completely different company when comparing fridges to phones etc.

    3. Re:Stagnation by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "You have to understand though, when it comes to these massive conglomerates under the same name, the different divisions are similar in name only. It may as well be a completely different company when comparing fridges to phones etc."

      That's a pretty good point. The factory that makes cheap shit GE kitchen stoves and light switches is not the same factory that makes GE jet engines.

  19. Cost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Per capita nominal[1] GDP (source: Wikipedia)
    - USA: US$49,922
    - China: US$6,075

    Cost of unlocked 16GB iPhone 5 (source: Apple store)
    - USA: US$649
    - China: RMB 5288 (US$863)

    The average US citizen earns more than 8 times the average Chinese citizen. Would you buy a smartphone if it cost a few months of your post-tax income? I can almost buy a (cheap) new car for a few months (above average, post-tax) salary. And while I suspect the Samsung S4 is similarly expensive, I'd quite happily settle for a slower, cheaper variant (feature-phone, shock horror) for something that'll be obsoleted in 1-2 years.

    [1] - PPP GDP is appropriate for food, but nominal is more appropriate for smartphones, technology and anything that can be traded internationally.

    1. Re:Cost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The average citizen ins't a market. Chinese with incomes above a certain level are the market, and that market is still growing.

  20. Give the people what they want... and cheaply. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There are two reasons why people I know (myself included) have not bought Apple products.

    1. Give us a bigger screen. My wife loves her iPhone and is looking at upgrading to whatever comes next, but after using my Galaxy S3 she would rather lose her familiarity with iOS (and all the apps she has paid for) to get a screen she can actually read.

    2. Don't charge the $200 Apple premium. After being dicked around by Telcos, more and more people are buying their phones outright. It's not until you do this, that you suddenly see that an Apple iPhone is over $200 more expensive for a product (like the Galaxy S4, or the HTC One) which is better specced, but far cheaper.

    People buying outright is also the same reason people aren't upgrading as much any more. You used to get a new phone every 2 years for free on some contracts, but with the premium commonly being charged people are happy to hold on for three/four years - or until their phone goes bang.

    Not putting iOS 7 onto 3GS models is a smart move - it stops all those laggards from upgrading their OS, and forces them to start upgrading their hardware.

    1. Re:Give the people what they want... and cheaply. by Pecisk · · Score: 1

      1. But that's how it works. We love our old models, but...they just lose out to competition. That's how it works;
      2. Charging 200$ is all they got, hell, they cost much more in fact in US. That's their *business* model;
      3. Exactly - as soon as you get out of upgrading cycle via contracts, iPhone just doesn't cut it anymore.

      Not really - most of current 3GS users are people who don't care about newest iOS.

      --
      user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
    2. Re: Give the people what they want... and cheaply. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Smart move"? One man's smart move is another man's dick move.

    3. Re:Give the people what they want... and cheaply. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      1. Screen size is a non issue. If it was so important, the large cloner phones would be outselling the iphone, which they are not.

      2. same old bs anti-apple talking points. What apple $200 premium? Can you buy the Samesung S4 for $0 on contract? Nope. You can get an older iphone for $0 on contract just like the cloner android phones.

      Your post is a mix of different rants and anti-apple market propaganda. Please take your uninformed bullshit elsewhere

    4. Re:Give the people what they want... and cheaply. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      1. Give us a bigger screen. My wife loves her iPhone and is looking at upgrading to whatever comes next, but after using my Galaxy S3 she would rather lose her familiarity with iOS (and all the apps she has paid for) to get a screen she can actually read.

      A bigger screen is fine for gals with purses and guys with man-bags (or with always have suit/jacket). But Apple is designing for those people who want to be able to put their phone in their pants pocket, and looking at a photo of an S3 and a iPhone 4S beside each other, I think it'd be hard for me to comfortably move and sit with the S3:

      http://myandroidchief.com/samsung-galaxy-s3-vs-iphone-4s-no-contest-hear-folks/

      After a certain screen size, I might as well start carrying around a brief case and using an iPad all the time.

    5. Re:Give the people what they want... and cheaply. by Bananana · · Score: 1

      Not putting iOS 7 onto 3GS models is a smart move - it stops all those laggards from upgrading their OS, and forces them to start upgrading their hardware.

      Really? I think the iOS7 on 3GS drives them to upgrade their hardware.

    6. Re:Give the people what they want... and cheaply. by fuzznutz · · Score: 1

      This is EXACTLY the issue. As long as there is a financial incentive to upgrade via contracts, since you pay the same anyway, people walk the upgrade treadmill. As more and more subscribers leave contracts, the financial incentive is not to upgrade. You upgrade when the timing is right. I suspect all these "sell your old smartphone" businesses will fade away as well.

    7. Re:Give the people what they want... and cheaply. by kamapuaa · · Score: 1

      People use 3 or 4 year old phones? Be honest, how often do you still see Apple 3GSs, or that era of phones? Plus, they kind of suck compared to recent releases.

      And people are switching in mass to non-contract phones? Maybe on Slashdot, I have one myself, but I just do not think this is true. T-Mobile is probably the biggest name for that, and even they don't make it central to their business, and plus they're not doing good business.

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    8. Re:Give the people what they want... and cheaply. by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      I am one of those 3GS users. If I had to buy a new phone right now I would either get the Samsung Galaxy S4 or the Galaxy Note II.

      I have better things to do than to be in a constant upgrade treadmill.

    9. Re:Give the people what they want... and cheaply. by asmkm22 · · Score: 1

      I still use an HTC Desire, for no other reason than I can't seem to find a newer phone that doesn't have an obnoxiously large screen. Most people do tend to get new phones every 2 years, but only because of how contracts work. And for those that say larger screens are more popular, I have to wonder how easy it is to really compare device popularity when manufacturers are only really offering large screens now in the first place?

    10. Re:Give the people what they want... and cheaply. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't your post just "pro-apple" propaganda?
      Re-read his post where they comment on buying the phone outright (off contract). Nice of you to post Apple has $0 phones on "contract" thought. I think the "Apple premium" they are referring to is the price premium you find when you do a comparison between two "similar" devices (one apple, one a competitor). Do the analysis yourself and prove the poster wrong, unless you want to argue Apple isn't a "premium" brand with a "premium" price.

  21. Better Value Phones to Americans by tuppe666 · · Score: 1

    actually it is, Tim. The Chinese want cheaper phones

    Ironically so do Americans it is why Apple are increasingly selling more old products like the 4 and 4S. They also don't want cheaper phones..they may want better value phones. The iphone is a cheap phone its why Apple charge a large mark-up.

    1. Re:Better Value Phones to Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Even if they offered a cheaper iPhone, they still wouldn't be able to install pirated software on it. It's beyond second nature there...it's almost a pathological need to install unlicensed software. We have an off-shore team in China and we realized that they were using pirated versions of Windows, Office and a whole host of other very reasonably-priced applications, most of which we had enterprise-wide licenses for. We asked them to go through our IT department to get legitimate versions and they agreed. Six months later, we discovered that they've yet to request a single install and are still installing new pirated software. The whole concept of buying software seems alien to them.

    2. Re:Better Value Phones to Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      to be honest, I also don't buy a windows license. I without it, it is much easier to install windows a new everytime. With a license, you need to beg them everytime you reinstall windows, and office.

      I still use a office 2003 version without activation, I stopped using the legal version, because it took me half an hour extra, I need to call them, fight with the program to enter my serial number, that after that get a real person on the phone, and just say, I got virusses and like to reinstall my computer.

      Now with the office 2003 version without activation, I save a few hours, of installing and activating programs. With windows it was the same problem.

    3. Re:Better Value Phones to Americans by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      it's almost a pathological need

      No, it's not. It's normal maket behavior. There's nothing pathological about that.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    4. Re:Better Value Phones to Americans by Clsid · · Score: 2

      I tried to get a Windows license for a machine I custom built here in China, and boy, they kind of looked at me like I was speaking klingon or something. I did find a store eventually that sells legal copies but it was like finding a specialty craft store in a large mall.

      The guys I got the computer from used a pen drive with Norton Ghost to clone a whole lot of stuff to the new machine, from QQ (think MSN Messenger) to Windows and Office.

    5. Re:Better Value Phones to Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those reasonably-priced applications might not be reasonably-priced from the POV of a Chinese worker being paid wages in Chinese money.

    6. Re: Better Value Phones to Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the act of copying software requires so little effort or resources it's never worth it to pay for it.

    7. Re:Better Value Phones to Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's little surprised that a company that focuses on selling overpriced junk can't get the majority of the population (poor people) to buy their products.

    8. Re:Better Value Phones to Americans by Bananana · · Score: 1

      Why they can't install pirated software? Chinese people don't jailbreak?

    9. Re:Better Value Phones to Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The pathological part is that even after we offered them easily installable, virus-free versions, they still continued to use the pirated versions. It's a huge problem for us because we can't let them on our network and we'll likely have to hire an IT person to be physically there to prevent them from continuing this behavior.

      Is it normal market behavior to deliberately disobey the instructions of the people paying you?

    10. Re:Better Value Phones to Americans by Teun · · Score: 1

      Is it normal market behavior to deliberately disobey the instructions of the people paying you?

      Uhhh, who is here making the money for who?
      Or are you guys subsidising your Chinese office?

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    11. Re:Better Value Phones to Americans by zipn00b · · Score: 1

      HA!!!! I personally have never been there but have heard similar stories for years. And not just in mainland China either........

  22. Apple's China strategy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With their huge mark-ups for similar products to everyone else, how the hell can Apple compete, other than selling to fanbois?

  23. What do all these numbers mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    There's not so many homos in China.

    1. Re:What do all these numbers mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that was a cheap joke. :D Badam-tsshh...

  24. It's all about cost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    App Store is loaded with great app.. that costs money.

    In Hong Kong, price is the #1 concern. You can taut all the ease of use and convenience. But the fact is if a Hong Konger can solve a math equation and get a song for free, he would. Copyright is really more like a government slogan then a actual enforced concept. Android, unlike IOS, allow painless load up of bootlegged avi and mp3s. Pirating content is a national sport here in Hong Kong. This is the place where you can hear parent scorning the kid over the dim sum brunch for not downloading the latest CD fast enough.

      If I can get a 7" screen for the price of 5", why not? Especially when the latest shiny phone is not an apple. Also everybody carry a bag in Hong Kong. A few more oz doesn't make a difference when I am carrying a bottle of water, umbrella, extra TP (yes restaurants do NOT provide napkin), another phone (for mainland) and battery charger.

    And unlike Samsung, Apple's media campaign in HK is almost non-existence.

  25. Apple making poor product by tuppe666 · · Score: 1

    Make as good a product as they can, and let profit follow.

    Ironically Samsung now make more profits while Apples continue to shrink. The bottom line is the product is not that good. the iPhone5 has a 1.3 GHz dual core, 1GB of Memory, an 8MP and 1.2MP Camera, 640 × 1,136 pixels at 326 ppi. That compares badly to even mid-range phones let alone manufacturers flagship product. They need a new strategy, not marketing lingo.

  26. Yeah right by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 2

    People deride copying as a dirty word.

    Copying is how we humans learn, what you just said is what people used to say of Japanese industry in the 60s.

    China has risen from a rural backwards society in the 70s to a society that can manufacture pretty much any high tech stuff you care to mention.

    But if sprouting that quasi racist nonsense gives you some comfort all the power to you.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:Yeah right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>>Copying is how we humans learn,
      you are just repeating what someone told you. it isn't true at all. see? you haven't learned anything.

  27. Spelling out by Pecisk · · Score: 1

    Emmmm....let me try....I can only guess, but...because your business model has no absolutely chance of winning in China? :)

    Ohhh, you afraid to said that loud. Ok, I will try again...BECAUSE YOUR BUSINESS MODEL HAS NO NO WAY TO WIN IN CHINA. How about that? :)

    --
    user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
  28. They destroy the West 1 screw at a time ... by PythonM · · Score: 1

    Chinese people do not want to be involved in direct confrontation. Samsung manufacture its products in Korea, while every bit of Apple technology (except Apple's logo) was given to Chinese companies. Now nearly evetything Apple is manaufacturing is made in China. Why should they pay so much for the stupid logo? They got the technology in chinese way "1 component at a time". In the past Chinese were destroying its enemies like bugs destroy trees (one leaf at a time) so one day the tree eaten by bugs will collapse without any warning. Now you wounder why North America and Europe is failing!

  29. Selling badly everywhere by tuppe666 · · Score: 2

    ...ok not America :)...but that is the point. Apples market share is the lowest in years sitting at 13% http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS24239313 To focus on a market(admittedly a massive market) they always did bad is ridiculous. Russia's three major mobile phone operators have halted iPhone sales recently.

  30. Apple Pirates by tuppe666 · · Score: 1

    Even if they offered a cheaper iPhone, they still wouldn't be able to install pirated software on it.

    Seriously http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/11/ios-apps-hijack-twitter-accounts-post-false-confessions-of-piracy/ this is my favourite post of a Developer attacking its customer by hijacking Twitter accounts, and posting false “confessions” of piracy.

    They simply do not want the iPhone, and piracy is not the reason. Although not being in control of your hardware will definitely have an effect in every market.

  31. Too much of a good thing. by XiaoMing · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The irony is, Samsung phones aren't marketed as "special" as iPhones, and that's why the Samsung phones are winning.

    To elaborate:
    Any relatively affluent Chinese national who's had the privilege of making a trip to the states and is returning to the motherland will most likely have a top-of-the-line Samsonite suitcase full of Coach purses and brand new unlocked apple iPhone 5's (and maybe a couple of iPads), but how many Samsung products will they be bringing? Likely none.

    The reason for this is that when quality is an issue, the Chinese have this adamant belief that anything created in China that is exported to be sold to Americans is, without question, of higher quality than the same item were it sold to Chinese consumers. This includes the same iPhone, made in the same factory, by the same people, the "better" one being shipped overseas.

    That's why in the mainland, the spoiled middle-class children (starting at around middle school) with re-imported U.S. iPhones will actually look down on those who are using a "domestic" iPhone.

    The fact that Samsung has been a major player in Chinese appliances still helps to set it apart from domestic (to China) brands such as Huawei in terms of overall quality, but because Samsung phones are marketed as largely being a different alternative to Apple phones (in terms of features, screen size, etc.), there's less of a need to re-import that je ne sais quoi from the U.S.

    But Apple? Those phones are claiming to be the epitome of fit-and-finish, and that's just shooting themselves in the foot in this case.

    1. Re:Too much of a good thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there's less of a need to re-import that je ne sais quoi from the U.S.

      After the essay on saying you do know what's going on, to say at the end that it all comes down to the "I don't know what" doesn't fit so well.

    2. Re:Too much of a good thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I see a different dynamic.

      The affluent in China often carry two phones. An iPhone and a Samsung (often a Note). Personal calls are done with the iPhone, business with the Samsung. But apps are run on the Samsung.

      The middle class often have a Samsung or iPhone. Each wants the other one. Samsung owners want to switch because iPhones are cool. iPhone owners because they are frustrated.

      The lower class has off brand phones. It works as a phone, just like Samsung and iPhone. And they have all the apps they want. They want a bigger screen and more powerful processor. So they are looking at Samsung.

    3. Re:Too much of a good thing. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Any relatively affluent Chinese national who's had the privilege of making a trip to the states and is returning to the motherland will most likely have a top-of-the-line Samsonite suitcase full of Coach purses and brand new unlocked apple iPhone 5's

      Really? Last I heard, that isn't a popular thing to do anymore.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:Too much of a good thing. by kamapuaa · · Score: 1

      This is simply not true. Maybe 10 years ago everybody brought back stuff to import, sure.

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    5. Re:Too much of a good thing. by XiaoMing · · Score: 1

      This is simply not true. Maybe 10 years ago everybody brought back stuff to import, sure.

      It's cute how you've taught your gluteus muscles to manipulate a keyboard.

      Go to any outlet mall (from experience: at least three different malls in Norcal and one outside of Chicago), and you will see a line outside of the Coach outlet, dominated entirely by Chinese nationals. They are there to fill aforementioned suitcases. The kicker? The Samsonite suitcases still have the tag on them from the outlet they were just purchased at.

    6. Re:Too much of a good thing. by XiaoMing · · Score: 1

      Really? Last I heard, that isn't a popular thing to do anymore.

      And now you've "heard" differently.

      What's really changed in the last 5 years is that import/export laws have become more strict, and the regulations are better enforced. This means that just straight-up shipping things back over to China is a much less common practice. But this also drives up the attempts at more hands-on methods of transit such as travelling with said items in your luggage.
      Random luggage searches still run about the same frequency, so people just run a higher risk of paying taxes on gifts when they return.

    7. Re:Too much of a good thing. by kamapuaa · · Score: 1

      It's amazing the way you can tell where these Chinese people are from, and what they plan on doing with their merchandise after they purchase it. Almost like you don't, and you're just making things up.

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
  32. Samsung understands the Asian market by jools33 · · Score: 1

    Its not just the price - Samsung understands the Asian market and makes the product that the market wants, Apple simply doesn't.

  33. Chinese phones and tablets by kimvette · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have a Chinese (LAVA-branded) Android tablet - it was a freebie from a vendor because I order so much from him (several years we were their largest account). He asked me for feedback on it after I had it for a few weeks. I felt bad but had not much good to say about it. It came with the Netflix preloaded (in their official firmware) and the Netflix app would not load movies. No update was available from Netflix at the time so I contacted lavatech. Their response was that they do not support it, that I should delete the app. WTF? Also, the manual clearly stated that the tablet charges via the mini-USB port. It doesn't. It only charges via the DC adapter port, and it uses a near impossible-to-find-size barrel connector.Lava Tech is uninterested in supporting their core products. Their response if something doesn't work according to their documentation, is to simply not use that feature, or they insist I'm doing it wrong (how can you plug in a mini-USB cable incorrectly?!).

    I have a GS1000 dashcam (orange menu, a genuine GS1000 not a clone) - another cheap Chinese product. It has all the features I wanted but I ran into a bug. They quickly turned around and gave me a firmware update that fixed the problem I reported but introduced another problem. I emailed them again and they sent me another update (which I still have yet to test because I have been in the middle of moving to New Hampshire). Excellent customer service for a cheap product.

    Support from Chinese companies ranges from completely sucktastic to fantastic. Unfortunately the former is far more common. I think the way Samsung and Apple actually stand behind their products, both will take the Chinese market by storm. I wouldn't buy a smartphone from a Chinese company because there is too much risk that the most basic features won't work (like, not being able to make phone calls) and the company will just say "don't use that feature then."

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  34. I was in China last month, and asked... by Matias · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Almost everyone I asked said that the iPhone screen was too small.

    They also said⦠"Why is the iPhone so expensive when it has such a small screen?"

    You can buy an Android phone with a gorgeous 5.7" display for half the cost of the iPhone in China. That was the biggest screen I found and it looked more vibrant than the screen on my iPhone 5.

    If Apple wants to keep selling phones in China, they need bigger screens. Therefore, you can expect there will be a big screen iPhone. The Chinese market is too big for them to ignore. There's lots of competition now and Chinese consumers have zero brand loyalty.

    1. Re:I was in China last month, and asked... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The inevitable

      The bigger the screen, the smaller the dick of the owner.

      Frankly some of the screens that you see people holding up to their ears these days are stupidly large. The Phablet is a clear case here.

      not everyone wants phones with HUGE screens. Some people like to used their phone... as a phone. I know that is quaint these days there there it is.

    2. Re:I was in China last month, and asked... by waferbuster · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have to agree with this... When my girlfriend broke her iPhone 4, she tried to decide which phone to get. Basically, it came down to the iPhone 5 (with it's tiny screen) or the Samsung Galaxy Note 2 (with it's ginormous screen). She ended up with the Note and was happy, especially after all her friends were jealous. After all, creating envy in friends is one of the prime purposes of a premium phone!

      --
      I'm an individual! Just like everyone else!
    3. Re:I was in China last month, and asked... by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      The inevitable

      The bigger the screen, the smaller the dick of the owner.

      Frankly some of the screens that you see people holding up to their ears these days are stupidly large. The Phablet is a clear case here.

      not everyone wants phones with HUGE screens. Some people like to used their phone... as a phone. I know that is quaint these days there there it is.

      look man, if the phone is the only way for you to browser the web and view pron then you want a big ass screen that can fit big asses.
      many of those people do not have pc's and the phone is their (crappy) computer.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    4. Re:I was in China last month, and asked... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The bigger the screen, the smaller the dick of the owner.

      And we're talking about China here, right?

    5. Re:I was in China last month, and asked... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      You must have a small dick as she was craving the larger phone.

      No, you've got it all wrong. See, she likes to carry a life-sized photo of my cock on her phone, and the tiny iPhone screen couldn't display even its width. With the Note 2, she only has to scroll in the vertical direction to moon over my manhood, rather than in both directions.

    6. Re:I was in China last month, and asked... by Bogtha · · Score: 1

      the iPhone 5 (with it's tiny screen)

      Huh? This is a phone we are talking about, not a tablet. It's got a perfectly reasonable screen size. Any larger, and I'd have a problem fitting it in my pocket. Screen size is not a good way of judging a mobile phone, especially if you think bigger is better.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    7. Re:I was in China last month, and asked... by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      the iPhone 5 (with it's tiny screen)

      Huh? This is a phone we are talking about, not a tablet. It's got a perfectly reasonable screen size. Any larger, and I'd have a problem fitting it in my pocket. Screen size is not a good way of judging a mobile phone, especially if you think bigger is better.

      And this is why the 10% of the population who thinks this way will still buy iPhones. Well, the ones who don't just buy smaller Android phones at least...

    8. Re:I was in China last month, and asked... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, small dicks. It has nothing to do with the Chinese alphabet and their thousand year old typography styles...

      Monolingual geniuses at work.

    9. Re:I was in China last month, and asked... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      iphone fits up the rectum better

    10. Re:I was in China last month, and asked... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I've watched a guy type Chinese faster on a non-smartphone keypad than most English speakers can type on a full keyboards. He was even faster on a smartphone. And none of the other locals thought his skills were exceptional.

      How long have you been speaking Chinese?

    11. Re:I was in China last month, and asked... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I can fit a 7" tablet in my pants pocket, front and back, and my jacket pocket, hand and breast. Yes, I have trouble sitting with it in my pocket, but at work, my phone is on my desk on in my pocket as I stand, so I could use a 7" tablet as a phone without a problem of pockets. You may want to stop trying to fit it in the tiny pocket in your jeans. I used a 5.3" phone for a while, and never had an issue, though someone did once make fun of my large phone when I was on a call.

    12. Re:I was in China last month, and asked... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anonymous Manhood wins the day!

  35. Has to do with ecosystems. by mattington · · Score: 2

    I've lived in China for the past nine years, and while I'm no expert, I can maybe shed a little light on the actual situation here. While most affluent Chinese own iProducts, and in particular have a bias iPhones, that's not where the market is going. Apple products are more expensive, and Apple has always had supply chain issues in China; most people prefer to buy from a vendor who goes through Hong Kong since you avoid taxes that way. I think the bigger issue is being locked in to Apple's systems. Look at companies like xiaomi.com, they are basically trying to be an Apple clone. Android allows you do to that. This company started building custom roms, then started building phones, and now they have a huge loyal user base. While a lot of people still go for iProducts for the wow appeal, overall there are more fresh things going on on Android, and that's enough to attract customers.

    1. Re:Has to do with ecosystems. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Less so nowadays - the margin between HK and local China iPhones has narrowed - which is why HK sales are down substantially.
      Most of the HK sales were going to grey import in the mainland. Now that pricing is not that much different, and carriers inside China have special deals on iPhones, less need to get a HK sourced phone.

      iPhone is a bit too mainstream now - they need a premium* version for the China market, if they want sales.

      *Yes, premium. As in more expensive, limited edition, bling show off version.

  36. The old Ford's philosphy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple is ok as long as any Model T you want is black. You DON'T want choice when you're an Apple customer. Choice is B-A-D.
    Unfortunately Nature and most intelligent customers think choice is good. Choice in terms of models, in terms of colors, in terms of price, in terms of features etc... And that's why Samsung is kicking Apple's ass. Look no further than this.

    I had a choice some years ago between buying an Iphone and a Samsung S3. I went with the S3 although it was more costly. Why ? Because of its featureset, because it interoperates without problem with any desktop os. Because 1 second and I can change the battery without going to some approved maintenance centre. Because it interoperates without problems with any other android smartphone. I don't have to pass through some Apple approved cloud to transfer files from my smartphone to my desktop/laptop or some other smartphone. I can install apps from google's playstore, amazon store or samsung's store. I can install apps outside of any appstore. And all this without jailbreaking my device. Do I care if the smartphone is plastic ? No, it's a tool. Nothing more nothing less. I use it for work every day and I couldn't care less it was plastic. Smartphones are not status symbols, they are tools. You want a status symbol ? Buy yourself some Girard Perregaux, ot Philippe Patek watch. Or some jewelery.

  37. What comes around ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple outsourced all their development and manufacturing to China. Now they struggle to understand the wave of Chinese competitors that suddenly arrived? Interesting.

  38. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Looking at the slashdot comments it seems like nobody really knows why either... ;)

  39. Made at the same factories by the same workers by knorthern+knight · · Score: 1

    > What somewhat surprises me is that Samsung's phones would be holding out
    > against the torrent of slightly-to-substantially cheaper indigenous handsets in China.
    > Sure, the quality can be somewhere between 'uneven' and 'totally fucking dire';

    Thanks to short-sighted MBAs who've off-shored manufacturing to Asia, "quality American products" are manufactured at the same factories, by the same workers, that manufacture "cheap foreign junk". Check out Foxconn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn on Google. Foxconn manufactures the iPad, iPhone, and iPod.

    --

    I'm not repeating myself
    I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
    1. Re:Made at the same factories by the same workers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who is assembling them doesn't matter, what matters is what the specification says about the materials that should be used, and the tolerances to which they should be assembled.

    2. Re: Made at the same factories by the same workers by shiruba1067 · · Score: 1

      That's missing the point. A lot of Japanese companies have manufacturing in China too, but the products manufactured to sell in Japan have much much higher quality than those manufactured to sell in China. Simply because Japanese people won't think twice about paying twice as much for something 50% better, whereas the average Chinese person would think that's crazy.

  40. iOS does not support Cantonese! by divec · · Score: 2, Informative

    Here's a big hint for Tim: on iOS, you can't write a custom keyboard. On Android you can. This is a really big deal in Hong Kong, because iOS has no support for Cantonese-based Chinese input. The best you can do is a kludgy app where you have to copy and paste the result (see https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/canton-guang-dong-pin-yin/id385519764?mt=8).

    Therefore, the Cantonese user is hamstrung by Apple's lack of support for the Cantonese-speaking market, together with their locked-down approach which prevents third party developers from filling the hole.

    Compare this with the situation on Android, where there are at least five Cantonese-based keyboard input methods, together with Cantonese voice recognition. Why is it surprising if Hong Kongers find iOS seriously deficient?

    --

    perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'

    1. Re:iOS does not support Cantonese! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      iOS has no support for Cantonese-based Chinese input

      WTF are you talking about? It supports Hangzi input just fine.

    2. Re:iOS does not support Cantonese! by Anubis+IV · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not only does iOS have voice control and dictation in Cantonese, but Siri even speaks Cantonese. There's also the fact that iOS supports the traditional Chinese character set, which is used by Cantonese, as well as the extra characters that are specific to Cantonese. Did it ever occur to you to ask why that app you linked hasn't been updated for three years now? If you look back, you'll find that that Apple expanded its iOS efforts to include China around that time, along with adding input support for various forms of Chinese in iOS 4.

      But hey, dinging them using information that hasn't been true for about three years is a favorite pastime of many a nerd, so please, continue.

    3. Re:iOS does not support Cantonese! by Bananana · · Score: 1

      Why is this Score 5 - Informative? It is an Ad selling the app. I'm a Hong-konger and "Cantonese input" was never a problem. Someone please vote it down.

    4. Re:iOS does not support Cantonese! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The best you can do is a kludgy app where you have to copy and paste the result (see https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/canton-guang-dong-pin-yin/id385519764?mt=8 [apple.com]).

      This is better, much better.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re:iOS does not support Cantonese! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I fired up my iPad and looked at the Keyboards for Chinese:
      Stroke,
      Handwriting,
      Pinyin, (Mainland / Taiwan)
      Cangjie, (Taiwan - but not phonetic)
      Stroke,
      Zhuyin (Taiwan)
      (there are some others but I had them enabled - all PRC)

      So, from the list they seem to be mostly for Taiwan or the mainland... A lot of Chinese users install a custom IME even for windows... I guess they could use the Cangjie one as it has no phonetic connections... Or write them out all day long... Where is ?Jyutping? for example?
      All I know is that the Chinese I know use pinyin...

      Side note: the Japanese input is also lacking in features. So I guess Chinese users just want a better input method... You have to use traditional Chinese input to try and find some Kanji... Which may be different from their Japanese derivative... So pull out that Kanji dictionary(or Japanese phone), because the input method may become useless...

      Question: Have you tried to input Cantonese on an iPhone? The input method provided may be frustrating in comparison to what other companies provide...

    6. Re:iOS does not support Cantonese! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The general point still stands though. On iOS you are stuck with whatever input method Apple provides. Many Chinese people prefer 3rd party ones. Look at Windows and MacOS, they both have pretty good Chinese input systems but many people still install a 3rd party one and many manufacturers bundle one as standard. My own laptop, which is Japanese, came with one that ties in to a dictionary app.

      Anecdotally I hear that Chinese input on iOS is kind of weak. Of course anecdotes are normally worthless but since there is no competition on iOS there is no way to test that assertion. If you look at the popularity of 3rd party keyboards on Android though it does suggest that there is great demand for them, despite the Google one being pretty good.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    7. Re:iOS does not support Cantonese! by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Not only does iOS have voice control and dictation in Cantonese, but Siri even speaks Cantonese. There's also the fact that iOS supports the traditional Chinese character set, which is used by Cantonese, as well as the extra characters that are specific to Cantonese.

      Having support for something does not automatically mean it works.

      Apple's Asian language support sucks (so does Google's, but fortunately manufacturers dont have to rely on Google and have even added language support to AOSP). Iphone users I know in Thailand and Malaysia have to use their phones in English due to the fact that Thai and Bahasa Malay languages are so broken they are almost unusable, auto-correct in texts has to be turned off. All of these users have these phones because they think they are cool, (most had the bought for them by western boyfriends, if they bought the phones themselves they would have gone with something that had decent language support). As I said, stock Google Asian language support sucked in the beginning, but it was Asian manufacturers who put in better language support back to the AOSP.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    8. Re:iOS does not support Cantonese! by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      I'll agree that support does not necessarily indicate that it works, and I'll also agree that the lack of ability to customize the input methods using third-party replacements is a disadvantage, but neither of those were points I was responding to. I was responding specific claims he made, namely that "iOS has no support for Cantonese-based Chinese input" (emphasis his), as well as his claims that the only way to do so is via a "kludgy app" from a third-party, and that Android has voice recognition for Cantonese while iOS does not. I provided corrections and evidence to the contrary since it was clear that he was factually incorrect.

      I may agree with some of what he was getting at, but arriving at the right answer while using the wrong math is something that everyone here should know better than to tolerate.

    9. Re:iOS does not support Cantonese! by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree with that assertion, and had he limited himself to that point, I'd have quietly nodded and moved on to reading other comments. I merely disagreed with the facts he used to make his point, since they are clearly incorrect. Arriving at the right answer while using the wrong math is something that everyone here should know better than to tolerate. ;)

    10. Re:iOS does not support Cantonese! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Siri? This is 2013. That novelty gimmick wore off a long time ago.

  41. It's because they didn't care by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Apple managed to sell some stuff in China despite not having support for the languages and no effort in distribution. Meanwhile Samsung, and even Nokia in it's death throes, have made some effort at selling things in China, and guess what, they are doing better than Apple in that market. It's not hard to work out why.

  42. because by tedleaf · · Score: 1

    because people have realised what you do and dont get buying apple and they have stopped buying. basicly they dont believe the hype, bull.... etc that apple rely on for sales. apple, last years tech at next years prices, the world has voted with its wallet and spent elsewhere, even in usa apple are failing, stock price down 50%, sales down as well, all as predicted. i wouldvnt put my money in samsung either, they have no better understanding of the markets than apple do a d the same situation we are discussing here will happen to samsung very soon. they also will crash back to what they should be, a non-dominant phone maker, possibly even quicker than apple, no-one thinks samsung devices "cool".

  43. Or maybe just more than one choice by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    Some people like smaller phones, some like larger ones. I understand that too much choice can get confusing to people, but most people want SOME choice. Apple has had a "You will do this our way," idea for a long time. Now that works when what you have is what people want, but not so much if people decide they want something else.

    Also in terms of China, Apple is at a disadvantage compared to America because it doesn't have the status symbol thing going on there. In the US it is very fashionable to have and be seen with an Apple product (though it is waining here). It started with the iPod and has continued for quite some time. It was a status symbol to have an iPod, iPhone, etc. Not so in China. It just doesn't have that same status. So people evaluate it more on its features (and cost) and how much they like those.

    Apple may have to accept that having "an" iPhone isn't going to cut it as much, they may need to have a couple options for people to choose from.

    1. Re:Or maybe just more than one choice by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Today, owning an ipod says you are 11 years old.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  44. no Duh! moment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Android is far better suited to the chinese market. Because piracy is far simpler on it....

    Chinese hate walled gardens (oh the irony!)

    1. Re:no Duh! moment? by Haawkeye · · Score: 1

      This is bang on the nail!

  45. License brainwashing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's because the whole concept of buying software is alien, it takes some brainwashing to get. Not paying for a good with zero marginal cost is pretty natural.

  46. No it is clear. by drolli · · Score: 1

    In my experience iphones sold extremely well where they had the iPod bonus (that is, a non-negligible fraction of the population being on itunes).

    In china Apple never managed tyo catch the same stronghold.

    May also have to do with Apple fucking up on simple things in non-trivial (i.e. chinese) 2.5g network situations (when i traveled to China with my wife, her iphone3gs choked up on the chinese variant of GSM extension in a way that calls were impossible (neither my Nokia phones nor my galazy tab had that problem).

    Or with the fucking provider-binding where apple plays police.

    1. Re:No it is clear. by Clsid · · Score: 1

      China Unicom had phones with zero issues for a long time now. China Mobile might be the issue but that's more a problem of not knowing the local market more than the phone manufacturer itself. iPhones sold well here but nowadays people don't see the value of the iPhone 5 since they consider the 4/4S good enough still. But hop into any metro and count how many Apple devices you see. Nowadays you get to see more Android phones, but like a year ago it was crazy, I even saw people with two iPhones.

  47. Mod parent up. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mod parent up.

    China isn't as caught up in the phone as being part of fashion, so price/features wins and in this department, Apple is way way behind Samsung.

  48. It's the design. by Fuzi719 · · Score: 2

    When Apple first became available in China, the "status" drove sales. But, that market was quickly saturated. The Chinese market typically demands several things of a smartphone: microSD support and swappable batteries. Phones without those abilities are simply not as well received. Some manufacturers make special products just for the Chinese market, like HTC does with their One model. In the US and Europe, the HTC One is completely sealed, no access to battery, no microSD slot. But in China, the HTC One has at least the microSD because that market demands it. In China, they put a lot of video onto microSD to play on their devices, whether phone or tablet. The Apple system requires those videos to be converted on a host computer before they will play on the device. Android typically does not require any conversion, it plays many more formats than Apple. The microSD can be loaded up with movies and tv shows to watch on the commutes to/from work and school. Apple doesn't seem to understand the Chinese market. They had the initial status-driven people, but those don't offer continued sales/growth.

  49. Ask the Chinese! by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

    Want to know why Chinese people are buying Android phones instead of iPhones? Ask them. Have people around here never heard of a poll?

  50. My departure from iPhone by ehiris · · Score: 1

    I had a iPhone 4 which was decent, and thought that it did everything I would ever want. Then I updated the iOS and switched providers, at which point I could not unlock it so I had to get a new device, and chose the S4 over the iPhone 5 which has an outdated OS interface, charges an arm and a leg for memory upgrade (64 GB is not worth 300$ EVER), has no SD card slot, doesn't allow for the battery to be flipped so that I don't have to worry about running out of battery and no charger available nearby, has only "family friendly" apps, has an outdated camera, a narrow awkward screen, doesn't allow me to copy files over the network, text input on the keyboard has to be done by continuously clicking, requires iTunes, and I can't play videos on it unless I get them from apple or use some bloated annoying software on my PC to convert for it.

  51. Product cycle time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Product cycle time.

  52. Generally speaking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is why you bozos shouldn't let emotion and stupid stories dictate your investments. You will get taken to the cleaners by anyone who actually bothers to read filings by both companies.

    http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/27/samsung-has-not-dethroned-apple-in-mobile-profits

  53. Business models are different by m.dillon · · Score: 1

    And I think a lot of you are confused by that. Samsung is just selling hardware. Apple is selling hardware AND creating an ongoing income stream from its ecosystem. Apple focuses on and accomplishes far higher customer retention numbers to sustain a longer purchasing cycle by consumers as the market matures. And it shows in the margins and the premium that Apple is STILL able to command for its products (despite what the emotionally-driven people on slashdot think).

    From a business perspective, Apple is beating the holy crap out of its rivals and as the market matures pure hardware makers such as Samsung are being forced into more defensive positions. It's obvious just looking at the relative margin numbers.

    Statistics can be very misleading, particularly the idiotic 'global market share' statistics the media seems to love to quote. The simple fact of the matter is that Apple is not diving head-first into lower economic zones. It's dipping its feet in from the higher zones but from Apple's perspective there's just no point trying to run after customers who don't won't provide any meaningful ongoing income to either Apple or Apple Developers. This also supports Apple's premium pricing model because, to be frank, the consumers of its products tend to be the same consumers who spend significant amounts of money just on telco. In the U.S. and other economically mature zones, Apple's premium is barely 1 month's phone bill. Not enough of a reason for those people to switch to a cheaper device.

    China is certainly different in this regard, but Apple's business model is still generating enormous revenue and profits so to say that they are somehow 'losing' in China is losing sight of the bigger picture. Apple will tune its model but they will always sell at a premium to other devices. There's no reason for them not to.

    -Matt

  54. My limited experience would agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My wife is from Hong Kong, and loves the Samsung phones. Not a week goes past without her complaining about how much she hates Apple with its small screen, lack of features, sub-par specifications and "rip off" price. She will even go so far as to occasionally (much to my own embarrassment) openly mock people with iPhones in public!

    I hate Apple products for completely different reasons - I won't use their products due to the proprietary nature of the devices, and still rock my N900 to this day.

  55. Apple haters rejoice! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So many apple haters in tech blogs... Come on they make decent products that appeal to the masses. Will other companies make products that are more geared to the hacker community? Yup. But I'm glad my mom has an iPhone.

  56. No "official" TD-SCDMA support. by MtViewGuy · · Score: 1

    The biggest problem for Apple in China is that even though the hardware is potentially capable of supporting it now, the iPhone 4S and 5 does NOT support the unique TD-SCDMA digital cellular network used by China Mobile for its 750 million customers.

    Hopefully, when the new iPhone models (5S and the new 5C lower cost model) arrive this fall, it will enable TD-SCDMA support, and that will allow China Mobile to officially support the iPhone so China Mobile customers can buy them at the Apple Store or China Mobile authorized retailers.

  57. Hope and Change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remember when everyone was happy to give Bush the finger in 2008 and say that we're headed for an improvement in foreign relations because of Obama's election.

    Different guy, same shit.

  58. Just Add cell phone to iPad mini by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    iPhone IS too small compared to the new Samsung phones.

    What I would like to see is Apple double the storage &
    add cell phone electronics into the iPad mini.

    The iPad mini makes a great Big Phone,
    and with 256GB of storage, and updated camera,
    the iPad Mini phone would be great.

    Otherwise I'm buying the next Note 3.

  59. just my opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think its history repeating itself, remember apple and Microsoft, apple won that battle in well over a decade because they gave up the rights to the hardware.
    I don't think is a matter of apple and sumsung, but apple and droid this time around. where clearly apple has their hands full already.

    just my opinion regards