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Measles Outbreak Tied To Texas Megachurch
New submitter the eric conspiracy sends this quote from NBC:
"An outbreak of measles tied to a Texas megachurch where ministers have questioned vaccination has sickened at least 21 people, including a 4-month-old infant — and it's expected to spread further, state and federal health officials said. 'There's likely a lot more susceptible people,' said Dr. Jane Seward, the deputy director for the viral diseases division at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. ... All of the cases are linked to the Eagle Mountain International Church in Newark, Texas, where a visitor who'd traveled to Indonesia became infected with measles – and then returned to the U.S., spreading it to the largely unvaccinated church community, said Russell Jones, the Texas state epidemiologist. ... Terri Pearsons, a senior pastor of Eagle Mountain International said she has had concerns about possible ties between early childhood vaccines and autism. In the wake of the measles outbreak, however, Pearsons has urged followers to get vaccinated and the church has held several vaccination clinics. ... 'In this community, these cases so far are all in people who refused vaccination for themselves and their children,' [Steward] added. The disease that once killed 500 people a year in the U.S. and hospitalized 48,000 had been considered virtually eradicated after a vaccine introduced in 1963. Cases now show up typically when an unvaccinated person contracts the disease abroad and spreads it upon return to the U.S."
Think of it as evolution in action.
...that you shouldn't listen to people who have no idea what they're talking about.
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
Where is your god now??
Interesting!
It's almost as if these "vaccines" actually work!
Maybe these "vaccines" were intelligently designed or something!
A river of blood, locusts and frogs.
Seriously, though, frogs has to be the oddest possible plague. They are about the least threatening creatures ever (perhaps along with sheep) and eat bugs. Also, they look nice.
Plague of frogs == awesomest thing ever.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
...so long as you keep the little plague bearers quarantined away from me and mine.
Vaccines are science, if you think they are causing health issues use real science, not a personal feeling. This issue is MUCH bigger than a simple personal choice.
Ever since they gave a lot of "talking time" to folks that may not have any idea at all what they are talking about, our "fair and balanced" media also shares a hand in the killing of these people.
Just add {In Space!} to anything.
...and (today) God's name is MEASLES.
Poor fools listened to a man on a pulpit.
I would say that these folks got their just rewards for refusing to vaccinate.
On the other hand, the kids did not have a choice to be vaccinated or not, and didn't deserve to get this disease. Shame on the parents. Their stupid decision made their child's life miserable.
Furthermore, everbody who gets vaccinated contributes to the herd immunity effect of the community. By refusing to vaccinate, parents and others put their entire community at higher risk for disease. It's not just a personal choice, it's a personal choice that has an effect on the whole community. For that I wish a thousand cases of measles upon the non-vaccinators.
The only logical conclusion is god hates these people.
I have no measles, so I know god loves me.
Let god sort 'em out
Hey, it's not as bad as the deadly infant herpes outbreak associated with Orthodox Jews cutting up and then orally sucking on little boys' penises.
Religion is disgusting.
...for ignoring HIS science.
Christianity has no position pro-/anti-vaccine or pro/anti-medicine. Just as there are "scientists" who, without any proof, believe in "cold fusion", space aliens, etc and doctors who insist that HIV and AIDS are not related and/or not dangerous and/or cured by thing like urine... there are a few preachers who cherry-pick a sentence or two out of context from their Bibles and then tell their supporters to prove their faith by handling snakes and praying for health when medicine is what God himself would recommend...
There are snake oil salesmen in ALL areas of human activity and ALL people who choose to follow other people ought to exert at least a little effort to determine if they are worth following... of course, people who tend to be "followers" generally do so because they lack the motivation/capability to be leaders and likely also tend to be too lazy to do the research...
Yeah, laugh at the crazy religious people... then get back to the website you were previously reading that was asking you for money to support their SETI activities...
then they're putting everyone at risk for mumps and rubella, both with reproductive implications.
Yet you base your response to them on personal feelings... rather than science. Except in extraordinarily rare cases, measles vaccinations confer immunity for life.
This site used to be called the Jenny McCarthy Body Count.
http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html
No this is why you don't listen to Hollywood actors when it comes to vaccination.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Hope they are ready to be judged.
No this is why you don't listen to Hollywood actors when it comes to vaccination.
"Actor" (actress).... rather a stretch when it comes to describing Ms. McCarthy, isn't it?
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Had this been centered around anything but a church it would never be posted here.
I hope you tolerant, logical, loving people are proud of how fast you are to kick the hate into high gear and wish ill on the innocent. Not to even mention the number of logical fallacies to outright lies I've seen present from the self-appointed enlightened posters here.
You're no better than anyone else. A bunch of hateful Neanderthals when it serves your purposes. Pathetic.
Its a "lots of humans gathering in one place" issue. It could be tied to just about any place that happens. I'm sure your local sporting stadium contributes to the spread of disease on an ongoing basis.
Three ways ways deal with this issue:
1. Everyone becomes shut-ins that don't go anywhere, meet anyone, or do anything outside their little domiciles.
2. We wear hazmat suits when we walk around. Gloves and breathing masks at a minimum. And eating anything you don't bring with you from an inspected source is forbidden.
3. What we're doing now.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Some of these religious nutters are relying on a "belief in God" or "faith" to save them from their ills, including some very serious diseases.
What they are, in fact, relying on is the placebo effect. If the mind is tricked enough into believing that the body is going to get well, it can have some benefits, especially in overcoming limiting beliefs such as shyness, fear of heights, etc. or at least make the patient happy while their body heals naturally.
However there is a reason why medical trials include placebo sugar pills against the actual drug to be tested... and that's because placebos DON'T work against disease!
Derren Brown did a TV special on the placebo effect. The show's second part was pretty much the final word on why religion is bunk, and why people still believe in it anyway.
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
presumably when they get their leg run over by a hummer that is also god's will, and as they lie in the road screaming in agony and people offer to call an ambulance and take them to a hospital where the medical care available due to years of advances brought about by scientific understanding (not to mention the invention of cellphones and the internal combustion engine) will remedy it in a routine manner and alleviate the pain will reject the offer as what has happened to them is clearly "gods will".
Even if this is a troll, there are many who think this way, so:
Fabricated evidence should be ignored.
If the only evidence for global warming were fabricated, global warming should be considered unsubstantiated.
There is more evidence for global warming than that which was fabricated.
Similarly, if there were many legitimate studies which showed that vaccines caused autism, they should be paid attention to. There are not.
If one person fabricated data which showed that the Earth revolves around the Sun, would you stop believing in heliocentrism?
This is fairly similar to the outbreaks of Whooping Cough in WA, ID, OR, and BC, all of which are highly correlated to "parents" who resist immunization on fanatical religious grounds.
Seriously, if you're concerned about mercury in shots, there are alternate versions of distribution of vaccines, but not getting shots spreads disease and ends up killing kids.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
They should pass a law such that unvaccinated kids are separated from other kids at school and put in classrooms together (quarantine). See how long the kids remain either free of measels or unvaccinated!
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
You are obviously right in that those who falsify research should be ignored but the problem is that the initial findings are sensational and PERFECT for media organizations whereas the subsequent retraction and discovery that the 'scientists' in question are crackpots is sensational in that people lose respect for the media organizations who have reported those findings without questioning the methodology or vetting the research properly. Ultimately most people get their information from the media and when you have irresponsible organizations struggling for headlines instead of doing any real reporting, this is exactly what happens.
This story from earlier makes an excellent point:
How can we correct this thought process? A greater emphasis on, and better understanding of, the method might do the trick. It’s significantly harder to deny the import of challenging findings when you have the tools necessary to evaluate the process by which scientists arrived at their results. That new study on global warming is tougher to dismiss when you know (and care enough to check) that the methods used are sound, regardless of what you think the authors’ motivations might be. In the absence of such knowledge, the virtue assigned to “science” might also be a motivational force for ideological distortion, the precise opposite of impartial truth-seeking.
People just need to make more of an effort.
Looks to me like measles is God's punishment for MegaChurches.
Which seems fair, or at least practical. Seriously, if you need parking lot traffic directors, you've got too many members.
I am not a crackpot.
Terri Pearsons, a senior pastor of Eagle Mountain International said she has had concerns about possible ties between early childhood vaccines and autism. In the wake of the measles outbreak, however, Pearsons has urged followers to get vaccinated and the church has held several vaccination clinics.
I respect the hell out of the fact that she actually went against her own original beliefs and recommendations and, in the wake of the outbreak she reversed her opinion no matter the fact that it may have made her look 'stupid'. High five to Terri Pearsons for doing the right thing.
idiots. Imagine you have an infant that can't get vaccines yet and one of these either religious nuts or those homeopathy gobbling new age turds infect your child because they're simply stupid.
I think you should be able to sue. It's reckless endangerment and while I couldn't give less fucks if every single one of them dies I do care about children that haven't yet decided to abandon all forms of logic. Really, stupid people should just take the quick route and jump off a cliff
the stupid, ignorant bitch^H^H^H^Hbeliever is just trying to cover her own ass, and the collective asses of her employer... it has nothing to do with her being noble or 'doing the right thing'...
if you're gonna give her a high five, please wear latex gloves and a surgical mask at least... and make sure your own shots are up-to-date.
The autism caused by vax was reported by a doctor doing research.
No, it was reported by a doctor perpetrating a fraud. "Doctor" Wakefield's paper was subsequently retracted by The Lancet and he was thrown out of medicine permanently.
Phil Jones has admitted to falsifying data
Sorry, no. He did no such thing. What you just said is the Fox "News" version of the story, in which the truth is far more complicated than you make it. There wasn't any kind of fraud going on, and to talk about this in the same manner as if Jones is equal to Wakefield is pure, unadulterated, bullshit.
There was an investigation spurred by a *republican* and the result was that Jones was vindicated. Which was a fact that you conveniently left out of your "just so" story.
I just can't figure that part out.
Because you are a moron. Full stop.
--
BMO
...make stupid (or dangerous) decisions.
Film at 11.
These anti-vaxxers need to be prosecuted for child abuse.
--
BMO
It would be helpful to have a degree of balance in these conversations rather than simply dismissing the opposing view as idiocy. Consider:
1. It is possible there are yet unknown side-effects of vaccines that could cause complications. Is there a link to autism? Probably not, but has this been proven beyond any reasonable doubt? There are enough case studies to at least raise questions. There are of course cases, albeit rare, where vaccinations have extremely adverse effects. There are always risks with vaccinations and any good doctor should tell you that. There is also personal experience. I know a family who vaccinated their first child for pertussis but not their 2nd or 3rd. Their kids ended up getting pertussis but the child who was vaccinated got it the worst by far and all their kids recovered just fine. Based on that experience do you think they'll have a very high opinion of vaccinations?
2. On the other hand, vaccinations clearly have a net benefit to society and there are more than sufficient data to prove this. The overall number of deaths and sickness avoided are much greater than the small number of complications. For a society as a whole, the data clearly supports the benefit of vaccinations.
This leaves parents with a choice. Do you support the greater good of society and vaccinate, knowing there are at least small risks of severe complications, or do you avoid those risks and trust that since most of society is vaccinated, your child probably won't come into contact with the disease and perhaps the disease or sickness isn't that bad? Personally I think the responsible thing to do is vaccinate but I certainly can understand those who choose not to and feel no need to mock them.
You respect her for deciding that avoiding lawsuits was more important than her supposed faith? She doesn't look stupid, she looks like the opportunist criminal she always was.
Please provide a link to any reputable source claiming that Phil Jones admitted to falsifying data and deleting it to prevent peer review. I very seriously doubt that you can. I also very seriously doubt that you care, because you seem to have made up your mind already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo
Dumbass religious fanatics spreading disease. Even the Black Death wasn't enough to convince these cretins they should quit inflicting the consequences of their ignorance on rational people.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Oh please. This is a religion. They do everything to cover their asses. On one hand they may be running the vaccination clinics but on the other hand nobody is attending them, that seems like they continue preaching their idiotic viewpoints from the pulpit while legally and publicly covering their asses. All cults do it, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, ... They preach one thing within the rank and file and then publicly state the opposite.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
No, I read the BBC interview of Phil Jones himself. No AWG supporter has been able to ever answer any of the issues brougt up by that.
I don't think the parent was saying anything about global warming...or did I miss that somewhere in the thread?
Didn't you know that *everything* is evidence that global warming isn't happening?
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Once again, we are reminded that Religion should not deal with science (and the other way around). IMO the same is true for religion and politics.
Wow... incomplete summary much?
Wakefield experimented illegally on children and faked his results. They should be ignored. Lots of OTHER, not faked, results show that vaccines don't have any connection to autism, contradicting Wakefield's fake results.
I'm not sure where you're getting that Jones falsified data. He was specifically cleared of any wrongdoing by an inquiry. Regardless, even if he did, lots of OTHER results show that man made CO2 is causing the planet to warm.
You're cherry picking two examples (one of which you made up) and ignoring thousands of others.
They're only putting those who are not vaccinated at risk.
(That is, if the vaccinations are actually still working - a totally separate issue to be reviewed)
I totally agree that they will do anything to cover their asses but this doesn't seem to be the case to me because admitting something like this may open them up to litigation...probably failed litigation but still. My point is that they typically do not even publicly acknowledge things like this that go heavily against their 'teachings'.
Don't get me wrong...I am not religious and don't support what they teach - I do however recognize that this woman publicly acknowledged that she was incorrect and I believe that should be respected regardless of whether or not her flock follows her 'public' statement. Respecting her for reversing her opinion and respecting her religion don't have to be mutually exclusive.
You don't need to even bother with any reputable source. The simple fact is this. If you want to beat an anti-vaxxer in an argument, simply give in to them. Admit every single thing they said is true.
Now, with that said. We are going to assume that measles causes 10 autism cases per 1000 kids. A 1% rate.
Measles alone, and JUST Measles, in a first world country, has a 0.3% mortality rate - http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S4.full
Now we have 3 dead kids, against 10 autistic ones. This doesn't factor in the kids maimed and permanently blinded by complications of just measles.
Now throw in rubella, diphtheria, polio, smallpox, pertussis, hep b, influenza, mumps and chicken pox.
How are those 10 autistic kids looking against the pile of dead, blind and scarred kids.
Exactly. I can concede every single point to an anti-vaxxer and still show the outcome is better with vaccines.
Nuff said.
a) There was a measle outbreak, the initial infection arrived from one person returning from Indonesia.
b) Approximately 25 individuals came down with measles
Of the twenty-five individuals EITHER
a) all were unvaccinated and are suffering the consequences, and its not threat to all you vaccine lovers.
OR
b) the twenty-five included both vaccinated and unvaccintated, in which case we have a more serious issue. And need to re-evaluate the vaccines and update them for current strains.
If the former, You and yours are safe. If the latter, then we've been alerted to a much more serious problem in time to take pre-emptive action.
It was quite a big frog, however, and got into the air ducts and kept everyone awake for weeks.
Terry Pratchett, Pyramids.
...who refuse to be vaccinated against these things all need to be shipped to some desert island to kill each other off...slowly.
There hasn't been any mercury in the measles vaccine used in the US for years.
think of the children!?
Mmmm. Give people who trust you dangerous, verifiably false advice. Some of those people get seriously hurt. Decide you'd better do what you can to protect the rest from your idiocy.
It's better than if she'd taken the McCarthy approach, but I don't think high fives are in order.
Oh please. This is a political party. They do everything to cover their asses. On one day they may be running for office but on the other hand nobody is paying them, that seems like the continue preaching their idiotic viewpoint form tbeir bully pulipt while legally and politically covering their asses. All politicians do it, Democrats, Republicans, ... They poll for one thing within the rank and file and then publically state the opposite.
There hasn't been any mercury in the measles vaccine used in the US for years.
Hmm. So why did I refer to BC, as in British Columbia, up in Canada, then?
Obviously Canada is the US. And the Moon is Mars.
Usually the rush batch that comes out early has a different formulation than the later batches. There's also a difference between live culture (usually early batch) and later cultures. Most of the time I get the early stuff, but there's oral preparation too.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I agree, kudos are in order for being rational and not sticking to her guns despite what was happening. Even so, this doesn't mean that she's reversed her beliefs.
Put yourself in her shoes. You believe that vaccines work, but that they cause autism for some percentage of the population. You think your odds or getting measles are low, so you're willing to take a risk and avoid getting vaccinated in order to avoid the risk of autism caused by vaccines (again, you're in her shoes; I trust that none of us here subscribe to this sort of thinking). But when the odds of getting measles suddenly skyrocket because the disease gets introduced into your community, it's no longer worth it to continue playing that game. Suddenly, the risk of autism is significantly outweighed by the very real threat that measles present. In that scenario, the only rational course, even for people that think that vaccinations cause autism, is to get vaccinated.
To draw a car analogy, it'd be like someone seeing a car coming through the intersection about to T-bone them. The driver had decided not to wear their seatbelt because they were worried that they might get trapped in the car if it ever fell into a lake. A low risk of happening, admittedly, but they decided to play the odds that they wouldn't get in an accident. But now, as they see that car about to T-bone them, they know that having that seatbelt on right then is beneficial to them, since falling into water is clearly not a major concern at the moment in comparison to their impending accident.
The analogy kinda falls apart at this point, since you'd need to freeze time so that the person could correct the error in judgment by putting their seatbelt on in a fraction of a second, but you get the idea, hopefully: diseases involving unvaccinated folks are like slow motion car crashes with people who chose not to buckle up. Or something like that.
Found in a catchall account for my domain (i.e., sent to a nonexistent account on my domain):
August 23, 2013
In the last week we have had the opportunity as a church family to exercise our faith and take a stand on the Word.
We were contacted August 14th by the Tarrant County Public Health Department who confirmed measles on the KCM/EMIC campus. Since that time a few more cases have been confirmed, but we have also had several who had been infected return to church clear and measles free. Praise the Lord!
Pastors George & Terri led us as a congregation in how to approach a spiritual vaccination on Wednesday, August 14th. The following Sunday, August 18th, they also informed our church body of the natural means to prevent and protect our families. If you missed either of those services I encourage you to listen now as they lead us and plead the blood of Jesus over our campus and our families.
Since Thursday, August 15th, the Tarrant County Public Health Department has been on campus four times to provide free immunizations. Because some have missed those opportunities, the health department will be returning this Sunday, August 25th, with free immunizations. They will be stationed in Study Rooms 1 and 2. Signs will be posted.
Remember, everything we do - we do by faith.
Be strong in the Lord and the power of His might. Ephesians 6:10
Fear not. Isaiah 54:4
By His stripes we are healed. I Peter 2:24
We stand together in agreement with you against sickness. Matthew 18:19
Our campus and our families have received the word from Pastor George for supernatural, accelerated healing.
I bless you and your family today in the Name of Jesus.
Cindy Wallace
Operations Director
Eagle Mountain International Church
and another email:
If you plan to avail of the free vaccinations being provided this Sunday, please bring your immunization records with you. This will help the Tarrant County Public Health Department serve you better.
If you missed our previous email, the TCHD will be on campus Sunday, August 25 from 8:00am-1:00pm, in Study Rooms 1 & 2 offering free MMR (measles/ mumps/ rubella) vaccinations.
For further details visit:
http://www.emic.org/newsupdates.php
Copyright © 2013 Eagle Mountain Church, All rights reserved.
You are receiving this email as a Member of Eagle Mountain International Church.
If you no longer wish to receive emails from Eagle Mountain International Church, please reply to this message "Remove from List"
Our mailing address is:
Eagle Mountain Church
PO Box 728
Newark, Texas 76071
of course the morons will then WHARGARBBBL about fascism and tyranny, as if the only threat to life and liberty comes from the government, and not from the morons living around you
no one should have the "freedom" to kill children, whether theirs or their neighbor's. they might not realize that their beliefs are doing that. and you're certainly entitled to your beliefs, but you're not entitled to your own facts
when the issue is life and death, it's time to force the morons to stop killing children. if they can't be reasoned with, they need to be forced
scientific fact is not tyranny
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
It's actually not that hard to understand.
Let's start debunking the vaccine myths with a few important facts. The recommended age of the first round of MMR vaccinations is between 12-15 months of age. It's also true that some children will react to the MMR vaccine by showing a mild fever, with a lower percentage developing a rash, swollen glands, etc. Some unlucky few will go on to develop a serious illness. But the simple truth is that side effects occur in 1 out of 5 children who are vaccinated.
Next, it's important to know there's no serum or blood test that can identify autism. Diagnosis starts when a parent suspects a child's behavior isn't "normal." There's a checklist of autistic behaviors in toddlers that a professional observes and evaluates. But the important prerequisite is the child has to be old enough to express those behaviors. Depending on the child, they become mature enough to evaluate somewhere between 18-24 months of age.
Because of this coincidental timing, it stands to reason that most children who are diagnosed with autism are diagnosed within a few months after their MMR vaccination. And 20% of those children will have experienced some side effects from the vaccine. To a worried parent, the two might be seen as related. To a very worried parent who hears a congresswoman, a random movie star, and their pastor all shouting "Vaccines cause Autism!", it becomes a terrifying reality.
Autism is a tragedy for the family, no doubt. But some parents want to blame an accident for injuring their child so they can have someone to sue. And frankly no amount of scientific evidence would convince the soon-to-be-rich parents of those children that their autism wasn't caused by the vaccinations.
So now that we've established that certain people are susceptible to believing this coincidence, and some have strong financial motives for purporting to believe it, it's not hard to get people claiming that vaccines are a part of a "pharmaceutical company conspiracy and government coverup". What went from a common coincidence involving a tragic illness was retold as a gripping story that strikes fear in the hearts of parents. Scary stories are very powerful, and they tend to stick with us. This fear was exploited by an unethical researcher wanting to cash in on the craze. He was later exposed and denounced, and he was the only scientist claiming that such a connection existed. There simply aren't any valid studies showing a connection; just anecdotes from sad parents and unqualified public figures. But the stories continues to be retold because of their scary nature.
The facts of global climate change, however, are backed by many independent studies, including global average temperatures, changes in weather patterns, and the rapidly shrinking polar ice caps. The global measurements of steadily rising CO2 levels in the atmosphere are beyond dispute. The stolen emails of a research organization who linked the two were used in a smear campaign, yet even after the attack their studies were not repudiated. There is simply no comparison between them and a fraud trying to cash in on tragedy, suffering, and stupidity.
John
Certain people have a tendency to believe. Many can be found in churches, temples, mosques, etc, where of course they believe the local dogma. But these same people believe many other things; 'Everyone knows that Ms Jones down the street is practicing witchcraft!'. Even small things: Aunt Emma said that when a dog licks your wound, it will heal faster. A dog's mouth is the cleanest thing in the universe!
These people cannot be reasoned with. The fact that a study of 50,000 people indicated that there was only a 8% chance of XXXX, has no meaning to them if they know or heard of someone who was the exception. Explain all you want- their ears are deaf to you. Any 'fact' spouted by a celebrity carries infinitely more weight than a scientist's observation. No matter the facts, these people will judge the President by offhand comments whose source is forgotten but gospel truth anyway.
It's frightening for me to think that people like this have access to the button that fires a nuclear missile. That they work in our military and police forces and the halls of Congress. That they drive on the same roads that I do.
...omphaloskepsis often...
The facts of global climate change, however, are backed by many independent studies, including global average temperatures, changes in weather patterns, and the rapidly shrinking polar ice caps. The global measurements of steadily rising CO2 levels in the atmosphere are beyond dispute.
It's not quite so clear-cut as all that. To argue for AGW, not just "climate change" (climate change is normal throughout Earth's history), you need more than the facts you mention: you need to show the causal link between the specific CO2 concentrations and the specific amount of global warming. There are plenty of computer models to that effect, but they have a pretty bad track record so far in actually "proving" themselves by making surprising falsifiable predictions which turn out to be true. You can say which way current research leans, but let not be arrogant about this being "proven" yet. This just isn't evolution or relativity we're talking about.
And there would be significantly more work to do to justify policy based on AGW, because that takes us into economic arguments: the cost of reducing carbon emissions vs specific costs avoided by doing so, and that's not at all clear yet.
When you ask people to believe "both that the weatherman can predict weather 10 years from now and that an economist can make, well, any sort of accurate prediction at all", that's asking a lot. It may seem silly to put it that way, but that's at the heart of most skepticism these days. And that's vastly more reasonable that believing rumors about vaccines and autism.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Most of these ought to be +5 Funny.
Along with Washington, Idaho and Oregon?
There's no mercury in the measles vaccine used in Canada either. In fact, MMR in Canada has never contained mercury.
And before you say "I was talking about whooping cough, moon, cheese, Cleese!11!", there's no mercury in that one either. US or Canada.
By the way, I'm Canadian.
As did He. He just didn't brag about it: "For I did not speak of my own Accord" - John 12:49
But as with most 2000+ year old stories, there are multiple versions: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sa_steve/4461940839/
Of course, the slight problem with your white wash is high functioning children that all of a sudden become retards after complications with their vaccines. Just like me.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
You may fall victim to a side effect from any vaccine, but, comparing risk of side effects to risk of infection, you will get the disease it aims to prevent.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
We can look forward to many more of these incidents.
You respect her for deciding that avoiding lawsuits was more important than her supposed faith? She doesn't look stupid, she looks like the opportunist criminal she always was.
It wasn't her faith in God that made her believe the vaccines caused autism. It was her belief in a scientific research paper done by a doctor.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
I can't be totally sure, but i think my mmr had thimeresol, no doubt about it my polio vaccine, which they vaccinated me with 5 times against protocol, had thimersol, all in quebec. For USians and the the geographically challenged, that's in Canada, part of North America.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
500 per year? Why that is slightly more than die from falling out of bed!
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
There is no other in depth research not based on the CRU data, period.
You sir, are an idiot. There are a number of lines of evidence that have nothing to do with the CRU data. In fact, the CRU data is really immaterial to the vast majority of literature.
Now, either learn to read and think or cuddle up to Jenny and refuse vaccinations from now on.
No, I read the BBC interview of Phil Jones himself. No AWG supporter has been able to ever answer any of the issues brougt up by that.
That's because he answered them himself. There are essentially no 'hanging questions' about the CRU data. It's all in your confused little mind.
Definitely agree. My daughter caught measles at around 10 months old (MMR is given at 12 months). Because she still had some of her mothers immunity (so i'm told) it didn't amount to anything more than an extremely high temp, a bit of a rash, and extreme grumpiness for a few days. If anything "caused" her autism it was that. Thanks a lot non-immunisers.
Some of the diseases we immunise against can never be completely eradicated because of non-accessible reservoirs (birds, bats, etc), but if there was a worldwide campaign to immunise everyone then measles, polio, and a few others could be gone in a generation, and a whole load of arguments about immunisation would just evaporate
What scares me is that the current measles vaccine works very well right now, but is there any chance that continued background exposure of immunised people to measles via non-immunised infected people could allow a mutation to evolve that makes the current vaccine ineffective?
The MMR vaccine in use in Canada has never contained thimerosal: http://immunize.ca/en/publications-resources/questions/additives.aspx
I suppose Quebec could have been using some black market stuff they scored off the back of a truck somewhere. Quebec does stuff like that.
Exactly. I can concede every single point to an anti-vaxxer and still show the outcome is better with vaccines.
The other angle to take is that with most people immunising, their position is relatively safe. They can protect their little darlings from the "horrors of immunisation", while the fact that the rest of us continue to immunise protects their little darlings from the disease itself. Seems like a fairly selfish position to take, and certainly doesn't scale.
I don't even know how they could have given me 5 shots. You would think that at the very least as soon as the person was notating the fourth vaccine in my health booklet they would have noticed I already had all 3 and cancelled the appointment for the fifth! The only thing I can conceive of is a stupidity so great that thought that since I reacted badly, i.e., pneumonia, inflamation, fever,etc..., to the vaccines that they had to keep giving them until I didn't! ..though protocol states they shouldn't have given any further ones, perhaps bad translation?
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
A counter argument could run like this: All of the kids around my precious Jewel are already vaccinated, so she's not going to be exposed to those nasties anyways. So why should I risk her getting autism for no reason?
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Yeah, I'm not trying to argue the complete AGW case here. I'm simply stating that the scientist who linked them (and who was later smeared for it) is backed by a large body of valid, peer-reviewed research. The anti-vaccine crowd, on the other hand, started with a set of scary stories ignited by non-coincidental timing of unrelated events, fueled by ignorance, and the flames were fanned by a stupid actress. They grew more "believers" because the various right-wing political aspirants, television talking heads, and religious figures, were all looking to galvanize attention and support by capitalizing on the unfounded fears of their predictably gullible base, and the entire group rallied around a single completely fraudulent study by a "researcher" attempting to profiteer from their ignorance.
For the GP to claim that the climate scientist and the anti-vaccine "researcher" are even remotely similar is far beyond a simple mistake. It can only be a deliberate lie.
John
Sorry, I just don't get how you can deny AWG. American Wire Gauge has been the standard for wire diameters since 1857, and doesn't look to be going away any time soon.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
OK, fair enough. I'm not sure there weren't equally deliberate lies from some of the climate researchers - some of the leaked emails seem quite damning, but there are other many researchers there who seem trustworthy, where the anti-vac guys just have one loony scientist.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Can you give the Darwin award to a church?
Why, yes! I AM new here.
In the Netherlands there is currently a measles epidemic ongoing. As of august 22nd, 1162 cases have been reported (many more thought to exist but not reported). The map that is shown will give you a good idea of where the heavy religious people (often against vaccination, because of their favourite deity) live.
Will be a good new name for them.
Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
After all, a source no less authoritative than mr. Robinson (see e.g. http://www.nowpublic.com/world/pat-robertson-haiti-earthquake-punishment-pact-devil-2556010.html ) traces the occurrence of the earthquake in Haiti back to people having irritated the Man Upstairs.
In this light I'm wondering if this Texan church might not have ticked off the Creator somehow.
I can only speculate. Off-key chanting in the gospel songs perhaps? Quality of the sound system inadequate? Sermons below-par? Voluntary church contributions a bit tardy? Ministers getting a little loose-fingered with youthful congregationists? Prayers a bit slack lately?
I'm interested to see how they will rise to the challenge. Keep us posted, will you?
The measels evolve to avoid that resistance. And being smaller with a shorter per-animus lifetime, they'll evolve quicker.
Measels was around for centuries. We didn't "evolve out" of catching it. We got smarter.
Well some of us.
YMMV.
Gore's hockey stick??????!!!!!! Gore never made a hockey stick graph. He's not qualified to do so and he knows it. You must be referring to the graph produced by Michael Mann. As far as runaway warming you have to look closely at the scale of the graph. It covers a couple thousand years so the steep part at the end covers at least several decades and the vertical temperature scale is in tenths of a degree.
As others have pointed out if you threw out all of Phil Jones and the CRU's work it wouldn't change climate science enough to make a difference. There are too many others working independently of that outfit that have found substantially the same things they have. Rather than simply vilifying the climate scientists you're going to have to dig in and do the actual scientific work to overturn their findings. We're all still waiting for that to happen.
dfw
I think we should try to bring back the idea that diseases such as MMR are signs of sinfulness, and punishments from God to those with impure thoughts. The uptake in vaccinations will be astounding!
Prior to vaccination, mothers were naturally immune to measles and passed that immunity to their infants via placenta and breast milk. Vaccinated mothers may have vaccine immunity, which is not the same immunologically, as natural immunity. One of the major differences in the vaccine-induced immunity is that it cannot be passed from mother to infant. Since most vaccines are delivered by injection, the mucous membranes are bypassed and thus blood antibodies are produced but not mucosal antibodies. Mucosal exposure is what contributes to the production of antibodies in the mammary gland. A child’s exposure to the virus while being breastfed by a naturally immune mother would lead to an asymptomatic infection that results in long-term immunity to that virus. Vaccinated mothers have lower levels of virus-specific antibodies in the serum and milk compared to naturally immune mothers and thus their infants are unprotected. “Infants whose mothers were born after 1963 had a measles attack rate of 33%, compared to 12% for infants of older mothers.” Infants whose mothers were born after 1963 are more susceptible to measles than are infants of older mothers. An increasing proportion of infants born in the United States may be susceptible to measles.” [7] “Prior to the universal varicella vaccination program, 95% of adults experienced natural chickenpox (usually as school aged children)—these cases were usually benign and resulted in long term immunity. This high percentage of individuals having long term immunity has been compromised by mass vaccination of children which provides at best 70 to 90% immunity that is temporary and of unknown duration—shifting chickenpox to a more vulnerable adult population where chickenpox carries 20 times more risk of death and 15 times more risk of hospitalization compared to children. Add to this the adverse effects of both the chickenpox and shingles vaccines as well as the potential for increased risk of shingles for an estimated 30 to 50 years among adults. The Universal Varicella (Chickenpox) Vaccination Program now requires booster vaccines; however, these are less effective than the natural immunity that existed in communities prior to licensure of the varicella vaccine.” [See following for full article] http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/07/05/herd-immunity-the-flawed-science-and-failures-of-mass-vaccination-suzanne-humphries-md-3/ 7. Papania M. et al. 1999. Increased susceptibility to measles in infants in the United States. Pediatrics. Nov;1045(5):e59 pp 1-6. PMID 19545585.
Those Americans travel without vaccination certificates!? Who knows why are you not stopped and turned at the borders more often.
There are useful vaccines and harmful ones. Measles...is a good vaccine. You just need to use caution and not inject your baby with over 60 of them in the first 6 months.
I read that as Messiah outbreak tied to Texas Megachurch.
-- Put crudely, the world is an extremely large problem instance. (Russel/Norvig Artificial Intelligence)
Jenner was a fraudster.
http://www.whale.to/v/hadwen.html
Still waiting for a rebuttal to anything Dr Hadwen said.
Isn't it strange how measles has suddenly become a 'deadly' disease - when I was a boy, EVERY child I knew had had measles, mumps and chickenpox. It's even mentioned casually in tens of television programmes of the time. What changed?
'Vaccination' is a massive fraud.
The emails only seem damning if you don't understand what they are talking about, and the particular vernacular they employed while talking. They've all been debunked. If they weren't, Fox News would have received a Nobel prize by now. The only people perpetrating this "the emails!!! so bad!!!" stuff are people who either don't understand, or those with an axe to grind. Any credible scientist looking at them, impartially, would see they are not damning in the least. No fraud was talked about - the words and phrases like "tricks" and "make up" have non-fraudulent meanings in the context in which they were used, which is evident to anyone who knows the lingo of the industry. But meh.
Your ratio is incorrect. In the USA, the CDC says 1 in 50, which is 2%, and the rate is continually increasing.
[snip from: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr065.pdf]
"Results
Based on parent reports, the prevalence of diagnosed ASD in 2011–2012 was estimated to be 2.00% for children aged 6–17. This prevalence estimate (1 in 50) is significantly higher than the estimate (1.16%, or 1 in 86) for children in that age group in 2007."
In South Korea the below study says 2.64%, which is about 1 in 38.
[snip from: http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=116570
"Results: The prevalence of ASDs was estimated to be 2.64%"
Autism is an environmental disease, as there is rarely ever any genetic ties.
The main concerns with vaccines are:
- the blood brain barrier is more permeable in the young
- adulterants are used, such as aluminum
- the virus' themselves. For example, ever wonder why there isn't a vaccination for Mononucleosis? Well, getting Mononucleosis increases chances of Hodgkin's disease (a cancer of the lymph nodes). So, being speculative, if being exposed to Mononucleosis increases cancer, then potential vaccines exposing the body to Mononucleosis may do the same (increasing cancer).
I'm not saying if vaccines cause autism or not. But no treatment (medicine or vaccine) is perfect. I'm always interested in this as my older son is severally autistic.
If you were only talking about BC and or Canada, why did you mention WA, ID, and OR? Obviously the US is Canada. Now stop being a dick.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Yeah, a high five to an ignorant woman preaching ignorance, poured into her from her father, resulting in getting many sick with a preventable disease. You can respect that, I prefer to call her what she is, an ignorant megalomaniacal psychopath.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
They snicker and claim all atheist convert in a near death experience. Look who believes in science all of a sudden. All we need is a bunch of unwanted pregnancies in that church, then all of a sudden we'll have progress.
I wouldn't rule out their lawyer having a chat with them about potential liability. When it's about money, it's about money.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
I had measles as a youth. A few spots and a bit of itching then er... it cleared up. No big deal at all.
Not worth being filled with big Pharmas chemical soup to prevnt such a tricial disease.
They were probably just unbelievers! They should have donated more money to the church...
Get in a big tank of water with a great white shark.
Call it stupid repeatedly. It may disagree as to who is smarter.
I don't think most animals have enough intelligence to be smart or stupid, they just exist on instinct. I doubt the variation of instinct varies all that much from animal to animal to describe one as more than another.
For animals of higher to middling intelligence that make conscious decisions, like humans for example, then yes.
http://xkcd.com/603/
Jehovah's Witnesses are not a cult.
My question is, did she ever tell followers not to get vaccinated? The blurb says she had "concerns" about the ties. From the article
Pearsons claims she’s not anti-vax, but the church does promote faith healing, and in August Pearsons voiced concern over vaccinations and autism, a link which has been thoroughly debunked.
Just because a church believes in faith healing does not mean they are anti-vacine. If they are a mega-church, then they probably draw people from many religious backgrounds, and there probably is a small segment that comes from extreme Penticostal backgrounds (not all Penticostals are like this) that don't believe in vaccinations or emergancy room visits.
It sounds like the simple fact that the church is now offering vaccination clinics proves that the church is not anti-vax, but rather one of the pastors had concern.
The articles are also misleading. It says this is a mega-church. As I hadn't heard of it, I decided to do a little digging. Eagle Mountain International is NOT a mega-church. The definition of a mega-church is a church having 2,000 or more in average weekly attendance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megachurch
Eagle Mountain averages 1,250 in attendance:
http://www.findachurch.com/a_sch/sch_det.asp?lst_num=1844
So the articles are very misleading.
That's your difference.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
You, and the poster you are replying to, are speaking from a depth of ignorance at least the equal of that of the preachers who tell their flocks not to get vaccinated.
Some religions include a god or gods, but not all religions are theistic. Some religions promise an afterlife, and some religions also promise all sorts of other nonsense, just like one used car dealer will promise you'll get laid more often if you buy a sports car, and another used car dealer won't. Belief in or promise of an afterlife is not a feature of religion, it's a feature of some religions .
Study theology before you start making statements about what religion and atheism are. Study medicine before you start making statements about whether people should get vaccinated or not.
When does the state of Texas allow an unfit parent to place their child in danger and not take custody away? When the parent is unfit for religious reasons.
Although (as far as I know), it's anecdotal, from what I've read, there's a stonger link between autism and sensitivity to certain foods. There are documented cases where taking kids off of wheat and dairy _appeared_ to eliminate the autism symptoms. In any case, it's well known that a lot of people are sensitive to gluten, and gluten-free food is more than just a fad.
On the other hand, I've heard of TWO court cases where vaccines were linked to autusm (two, not two thousand). And in the one I read more about, the girl had a pre-existing mitocondrial condition and would have developed autism eventually anyway. Two instances does not make any kind of trend!
So what these churches should be going on about is avoiding certain highly allergenic foods (look up the top 8 on wikipedia), which would result in people eating less processed food and a more varied and ballanced diet. That would have all sorts of positive effects, even on those with no propensity for autism.
But in my experience, big churches aren't really big hot-beds of clean living and nutrition. Rather, they seem to attract fringe conspiracy theories. So why can't they start harping on about Monsanto and its conspiracy with other food providers to make us fat and stupid?
Probably because eating well is too much effort for lazy people who would rather sit like sheep in pews.
Note: I'm not against religion in general. Just fundamentalists and conspiracy theorists. On the other hand, I do buy somewhat into the idea that the TSA exists to make us complacent about invasive government, but that's perhaps knee-jerk about being fondled every time I want to get on a plane. Oh, and our government has gotten to the point where it's no longer particularly representative of citizen wants, needs, and rights. But that's a separate discussion. Probably.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm
I'm glad that I'm not a parent that has to decide to get my child vaccinated. The problem as I see it is that we have been told that we should be responsible in watching our health and that we are in charge of it and that parents are in charge of their childs health. So when even the goverment says that there is a chance that a child who gets vaccintated for measles "MMR vaccine side-effects" & MMRV side-effects can get anything from a fever, to Deafness, or Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness, Permanent brain damage one wonders could my child be the one who the bad things will happen to.
I kind of think of it this way.
Think of it this way, in physical terms of what happens. You sit the kid in a chair and a kid that doesn't get any problems gets a lolly pop, the one who has a reaction gets something like this.
1 in 6 get a slap in the face (Fever), 1 in 20 gets a purple nurple (mild rash). 1 in 3,000 get the chair pulled out from under them as they sit down (Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever).
and then you have the big ones that they don't even put up on the website as to how often they happen (except to say very rare) Deafness, Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness and of course the big one Permanent brain damage.
Is the parent bad for letting the child even sit in the chair?
So what is a parent to do? Your a bad parent if you hurt your child but your a bad parent if you don't play roulette with your kid getting something simple and something very dangerous that will follow them for the rest of their life. Remember they have to take care of that child not us. Oh, btw, I'm vaccinated and as a consenting adult I will get vaccinated as needed because in my mind the risks are more than the chance but the issue isn't with me it's with the parents of the kids who don't want to get vaccintated.
It's a tough decision and glad that I don't have to make it. The argument about "the greater good" would only count if everyone pays for everyone else and take care of everyone else. Oh wait forget everything, get the kid vaccinated!
Paul: Father... father, the sleeper has awakened! - Dune
Most of the comments from people here are ignoring the idea that these vaccines are coming from "big healthcare", who has completely blown their credibility with things like anti-depressants, ritalin, aspartame, sucralose and many more. The same people pushing MMR jabs are happy to sell you gardisil shots, flu shots, shingles shots and more. Go ahead and get into bed with Bill Gates on vaccines if you want. You don't want him in your tech like I don't want him in my healthcare. The reason is simple: trojan horse.
The anti-vaccine people aren't arguing that these diseases are a legitimate problem, or that they aren't worried about them. It's that they are also worried about other threats that you don't perceive. Meanwhile I get to hear all this IQ trumpeting and darwin drivel in between sips of your diet coke. Amazing.
It wasn't her faith in God that made her believe the vaccines caused autism. It was her belief in a scientific research paper done by a doctor.
Oh come on. This is a faith healing church:
We know the truth; we are healed according to Isaiah 53:4-Â5 and I Peter 2:24 and are standing against any plague that would try to attack us as a body. So agree with us that this will stop now according to Matthew 18:19. Please take time to read the information below, and be led by the Lord regarding what He tells you to do for you and your family.
That's directly from their website about this problem.
adulterants are used, such as aluminum
That's adjuvant, not adulterant, regardless of what spellcheck thinks.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
Things are not always bigger in Texas.
1162 measles cases in the Netherlands in unvaccinated religious folk living in the Dutch Bible Belt.
There might be a way to figure out the whole autism vs the MMR vaccine question.
From what I've read, autism is diagnosed around 1.5-2.0 years old. Why not wait to give the MMR vaccine around 2.5 years old? If your child is diagnosed with autism BEFORE you've administered MMR vaccine, then it's impossible for the MMR vaccine to be the cause.
Is there a reason why the MMR vaccine is given before 1.5-2.0 years old? I'm not a medical professional, so I'm not informed on the reasoning behind giving the MMR vaccine at that age. Is the MMR vaccine less effective afterwards? Are the newborns at such a high risk for mumps, measles, and rubella when we have so much existing herd immunity?
Mostly because no one cares what sports people think. They just want to watch them play.
I suspect there are a few such people in every profession that have anti vaccine views.
It is true that they're not known to preach against them but then they don't preach anything besides "go team".
I'm not defending the anti vaccine stuff. Its dumb. But the view is not restricted to the religious. Please specify your ire towards anti vaccine people and don't label all religious people the same. That is bigoted and unfair.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
need to show the causal link between the specific CO2 concentrations and the specific amount of global warming
No you don't. CO2 traps heat. An atmosphere with more CO2 in it will trap more heat than an atmosphere with less. High school honors physics classes do that experiment, the simple fact has been known for a century and a half. Humanity's activities generates and releases CO2 by the gigaton, many times more than the planet's natural output. Unless you have some way of reversing these two simple facts then if you were honest you would have to admit that AGW is happening. 1+2=3, and unless you have some proof to the contrary there is no wiggle room for your position at all.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
Blind faith is absurd, but on the other hand so is atheism; the premise being that if life is purposeless, why would one subject themselves to the trials and tribulations of life? As life is a death sentence right from the start, logic implies that one should end their life once they belief atheism as fact, however society correctly asserts that this is a mental defect because one can not know with absolute certainty that life is pointless.
You'll have to draw the line for me here. Why do you insist something has to be eternal to have a point?
Your premise here is ridiculous. I'm an athiest and my life is most certainly not pointless. It'll end, but that doesn't prevent it from being meaningful. Each person has to find their own "point", and even if it's as simple as good friends, good wine, good food, relationships, and experiences, that's far from pointless.
Because diseases don't care about borders.
Medicins sans Frontieres
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Hey, I'm not here to challenge your religion, I'm sure your sacred texts are all 100% true and accurate "in context", and if anyone says different, that's how you know they're a heretic and thus should be ignored.
Meanwhile, I'll believe a new hypothesis or model when it makes a non-obvious, falsifiable, true prediction. I don't much care what games the people working in the field get up to, but I'm not going to go with just "we all agree we're right".
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Penn and Teller have a nice video out showing how one in a croud is relatively protected, but when a large population is not vaccinated and an outbreak happens the damage is large.
Worth viewing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWCsEWo0Gks
The truth shall set you free!
No you don't. CO2 traps heat. An atmosphere with more CO2 in it will trap more heat than an atmosphere with less.
You've entirely missed my point.
We're not talking about hand-wavey qualitative "sounds right to me", but about the ability to make specific and accurate predictions. When we can say "as things stand, the oceans will rise X centimeters this century, but if we reduce human CO2 emissions by 25% they will rise Y centimeters instead" with multiple significant digits (yes, "2" is multiple) and provable error bars, we can rationally talk about public policy and economic trade-offs. And we're very far from that.
Do you really think it's as simple as "how much radiated heat does CO2 trap"? No, that's an extremely minor effect at the CO2 levels we're talking about, and the upper atmosphere being a bit warmer has negligible direct effect on surface temperature. The Earth mostly loses heat to the upper atmosphere via convection, and you start with trying to figure out how that's affected and it only gets more complex from there as you work out precisely how the initial heating has magnified effect. There's nothing simple about atmospheric behavior (or ocean mixing, for that matter), nothing that gives you useful answers from first principles. It's all modeling a very complex system as best you can, and trying to prove your model can actually make accurate predictions and not merely reflect your own assumptions. And most models don't do so well, as you'd expect in a new(ish) field.
Arrogance is not useful to science.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
You misunderstand. The hypothetical wasn't that the rate of autism in kids is 1%, it's that the rate caused by vaccines is 1%.
From NPR, how the Rotovirus vaccine has prevented thousands of hospitalizations directly, and even more because the virus didn't spread via the vaccinated kids.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/08/27/216177042/vaccinating-babies-for-rotavirus-protects-the-whole-family
Quote: "In total we estimate around 15,000 hospitalizations a year are avoided due to the rotavirus vaccination program, solely due to this indirect benefit or herd immunity,"
Lose = not win
If you want to talk about making perfectly accurate predictions, then yes, there's a lot of work to be done. If you just want to ask whether human activity is causing more heat to be trapped by the atmosphere the answer is settled. There isn't any doubt about it. And it isn't an "extremely minor effect", you only need to look at Earth's two closest neighbors to see and measure the effect that increased CO2 concentrations have. Not surprisingly that effect is that the higher the percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere the larger the percentage of heat that the atmosphere traps. Now perhaps you don't think that doubling or tripling the percentage of CO2 in an atmosphere has a noticeable effect on heat retention, but the realities very quickly became obvious to planetary scientists in the middle part of the 20th century. Maybe there is some magical element in Earth's atmosphere which will make CO2 act in a different manner than everywhere else in the known universe, but I wouldn't bet my paycheck on it.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
you just want to ask whether human activity is causing more heat to be trapped by the atmosphere the answer is settled
Settled, but uninteresting. "How much?" is what matters.
And it isn't an "extremely minor effect", you only need to look at Earth's two closest neighbors to see and measure the effect that increased CO2 concentrations have
Oh, please. Human activity is a non-sequitur on that scale. All of the "free" carbon - atmosphere, ocean, fossil fuels, and all life, together, is trivial compared to the carbon in the rock cycle, and it's the difference in that cycle that matters. Such comparisons are why some dismiss AGW-enthusiasts as religious-nutters.
Now perhaps you don't think that doubling or tripling the percentage of CO2 in an atmosphere has a noticeable effect on heat retention, but the realities very quickly became obvious to planetary scientists in the middle part of the 20th century.
Again with the usefless hand-wavey-ness. Are you thrashing some "AGW denier" strawman here? There's no "humans become extinct" doomsday scenario here. Return of glaciation in the current ice age is a far worse scenario than significant warming. It's a question of economics, and we're very far from knowing enough to make any sort of cost-benefit analysis. Good thing research continues apace!
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
And God fuming "how many signs and portents do they need before they get a clue? What's wrong with those people? "
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
Sorry, I just don't get how you can deny AWG. American Wire Gauge has been the standard for wire diameters since 1857, and doesn't look to be going away any time soon.
That's because most American's don't understand the metric system.
Jules: You know what they call a Quarter Pounder with cheese in France?
Brett: No.
Jules: Tell 'em, Vincent.
Vincent: A Royale with cheese.
Jules: A Royale with cheese! You know why they call it that?
Brett: Because of the metric system?
Jules: Check out the big brain on Brett! You're a smart moth***er.
wow - reading these comments is amazing. anit-vaxxers know the dangers for themselves and their children. has anyone bothered to comment on the number of vaccinations required these days? this is a good read: http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-schedule/history-of-vaccine-schedule.html
this shows the basic vaccine recommendations. but my child, born in 2009, had a list of 27 different vaccinations recommended by the doctor. i'm happy with the 1970s version that I grew up with.
All I am sure about now is that with modern technology and medicine, the human race is no longer constrained by Darwinism, or survival of the fittest. We are now Survival of the Least Adequate.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_Egyptian_gods_were_the_ten_plagues_by_God_attacking
and kept my 4skin
To argue for AGW, you don't need the details. You can get by with increasing atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide and evidence that the increase is artificial (I've been told isotope ratios are very helpful here), and the general fact that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. At that point, one would generally assume AGW unless there was evidence otherwise. Add the rise in overall world temperature, and it's a slam dunk.
There are legitimate arguments about amount, effect, cost of global warming, cost of abatement, how screwed we already are, etc., and the question of what to do about it is ultimately political, but the general situation should be painfully obvious.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
First, those with babies, bad immune systems, etc. who catch a disease from these people who don't vaccinate their children etc., should be able to hold them liable for damages. Such as hospital costs, doctors costs, or even death. It will be hard to prove, though, who actually communicated the disease to said people. Secondly, health insurance companies should not have to cover hospitalizations etc. of kids and adults who decided immunization was "too scary" or against their religion. Modern medicine has eliminated many diseases which have historically ended many lives. To turn your back on immunizations is not just wrong, it is moronic behavior!
My karma is bad. Don't get too close!!!
Yup, sure, but my point is the qualitative aspect is all that matters in a political/economic discussion. The science isn't there yet: the predictions aren't accurate yet, but people want to rush into politics with "the science is settled" with no data to do any sort of cost-benefit analysis. I see a very strong attitude of "we must outlaw the sin and punish the sinner" that really bugs me.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Er, *quantitative aspect. Sigh.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
This case is excellent, as it shows that people with similar beliefs tend to do the same things - in this case go to the same church where they were programmed with that belief.
So they don't even benefit from other people immunising their children, because they take the children into a situation where that herd immunity doesn't exist.
And someone comes back from travels abroad with measles and they all get it, and maybe one or two will be scarred, blinded, brain damaged or die.
This is one case where I am glad that they will be paying for their children's medical care. And I sure hope that their insurance, if they have it, refuses to pay out because they should have immunised their children.
I wish the children the best in life, and hope they get better. They'll need all the luck they can get considering they have their parents.
All of the kids around my precious Jewel are already vaccinated, so she's not going to be exposed to those nasties anyways.
Luckily for Jewel, she was taken away from those kids (why would the parents associate with those "pro-vaccers" anyway, always going on that Jewel should get vaccinated, what do they know anyway, the church's pastor knows best) and into a group of like minded kids with parents who also didn't vaccinate their children.
Bam, herd immunity compromised.
Yeah, like the common cold and flu... it can kill the very young or the old and infirm.
Ever hear of "Measles Parties"? Go look it up!
F'n retards pushing vaccination because they're ignorant of the facts. Nice.
Nice that programming broke her original beliefs? F'n retarded.
Again... Measles are NOT fatal.
You want a really nice skin complexion? The antibodies produced by your body to fight measles will help with that your entire life.
WTF is wrong with your education people? Oh yeah, you went to public programming schools.
Dumb.
That's genetic.. I can tell from reading your post.
He tried to kill me with a forklift!
I'm thinking Dr Seneff may be right. Her recent work shows it is the Roundup in our diet. Thanks to genetically engineered foods that are sprayed with Roundup but don't die we now eat more. It started right about the same time that the vaccination schedule was increased (mid 1990s). She is the first to say "correlation doesn't mean causation" but it's a great place to start. She goes on to show correlations between the increase in Roundup use and autism along with a host of other autoimmune diseases.
The mode of action for this happening is Roundup poisoning the beneficial bacteria in your gut where 80% of your immune system is.
Stephanie Seneff, PhD, a Senior Research Scientist at MIT.
http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/
http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/glyphosate/glyphosate.html
Sigh, I don't even know why I'm responding. Anybody who brings up the 'genetics' card doesn't understand genetics to begin with.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
lol. I meant I understand things 6 months to 20+ years EARLIER than most do. It is a pattern I've noticed most of my life. Every had an idea that people ridiculed as obviously wrong, only to see the same people months or years later slowly coming around to the same realization? Yep....I see it happen all the time. /editbutton