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Ask Slashdot: Easy Wi-Fi-Enabled Tablet For My Dad?
An anonymous reader writes "I'm looking to pick up a tablet for my father. He is in his 70s and the internet is a bit of a mystery to him, but he asked me about a way to send/receive email and watch online videos. He is not interested in getting a smartphone or changing his cheap phone plan that doesn't include data. But he is interested in getting a tablet and using the free Wi-Fi that is available in his building. Here is my question: can you recommend a tablet equivalent to those phones with the big numbers that they sell to older people? Does there exist a tablet with an interface that would be simple and easy to use for someone who has very little experience with computer GUIs?"
You can install a simpler launcher, and most launchers can be locked down tightly. Then it's just a matter of choosing the right apps, but again, that doesn't depend on your choice of tablet. More important than the software (which you can change) is the display quality (bright enough, big enough) and the battery. Don't buy a cheap China tablet with only two or three hours of battery life per charge. A Bluetooth keyboard might be a nice add-on.
Like... an iPad? You may have notice the keyboard is digital, and therefore you may use the split keyboard feature for instance, and offer bigger keys to your daddy. Not mentioning other apps available...
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
1. Pick any android tablet.
2. Select "Font Size: Huge"
The interface is dumbed-down pretty well already because it's touch based.
(Yes, you could go an iPad I suppose. *rolls eyes* :-P)
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
Got one for my mum - problem solved.
Didn't even have to explain how to use it!
iPads are simple and quite straightforward. Go with a full-sized one, as buttons/other GUI elements seem to be smaller on a mini. If a small font size is a problem, turn it up in Settings > General > Text size.
I recently gave an iPad 2 to my 74-year-old, non-English-speaking grandmother, and she's found it way more useful than the Windows laptop she used to have (which is unsurprising).
Fisher Price?
Seriously, if an iPad is too difficult then you might as well abandon the idea.
Get a third-generation iPad. The cameras and higher resolution are worth it. You can find them refurbished on Apple's store site.
These old farts become too stupid with age. Whatever you get for him, you will have to sit down with him for hours teaching him everything. I ain't old but I found the new iOS 7 truly unfriendly and ugly. Often I find myself visually scanning the screen to find the icon I was looking for. The native browser has a compass needle on it which might induce to think it's a Map software. All the icons have become flat, dull and unintuitive, nothing like Steve Job's iOS 6. The Apple web-browser (whatever it's called) is a nightmare to use especially when you want search within the page. Chrome is not a charm either. The address bar disappears after a page is loaded. Were they thinking about new users and steepening the learning curve? No. They hired dipshits to re-design the thing. iPad has become a Microsoft unintuitive shithole. Thank you Tim Cook. I would fire you if I could. I would sue Apple to get back my original iOS 6 if I had the money.
Sure, an iPad, if the OP wants to spend twice the money that he has to. A decent Android tablet using large fonts or even a replacement launcher would be perfect.
If he "has very little experience with computer GUIs", why force one upon him?
Why not instead give him something that he can control in a manner that's at least vaguely reminiscent of the way he would have used computers when he was working?
My suggestion -- a cheap, used laptop (say, 3 to 5 years old max.) with a decent wifi card in it, running your GNU/Linux distro of choice, with mutt for mail and mplayer with svgalib for the videos.
With a few carefully chosen aliases added to his .profile, it shouldn't be hard at all to make bash feel "just like" CP/M, DCL, JCL, DOS or whatever he used to use at work, so the only "new" things to adjust to would be mutt & mplayer. Once he's comfortable with that, you can introduce to what's under the hood and gradually remove the "training wheels"...
iPad.
Whatever your bias, whatever your allegiance, whatever your misgivings about the new iOS7; the incomparable ease-of-use of Apple's tablet for non-techies is almost an objective fact at this point.
Hi,
thanks for bringing this topic up on Slashdot. I am currently looking into this too, but with another challenge on top. A relative of mine (80+ years) is going to be blind too. And he is looking for technology to help him cope with blindness.
A tablet with voice control and output would be a good solution (IMHO). Has anyone experiences with that?
From my first glance, the support in IOS for visually impaired is higher, but i may be wrong with that and the openess of Android may enable better 3rd-party tools enhancing that experience. Can you give me your input?
It is a pity, that those displays with tactile feedback are not here yet.
Thanks for any hint, Martin
The interface is fairly simplistic, and can be maddening for a savy user, but it's fairly straightforward. With Chrome as the browser and the Google Play store supplementing the Nook store, he'll have access to Netflix, Vudu, and Hulu+, among other apps, for a variety of options. It's light and easy to handle with the ability to add a 32 Gb, Class 6, micro SD card for additional storage.
You may have to help him go through the initial setup, but the GUI is pretty self-explanitory. Its pretty minamalist, easy access to what is needed, etc.
If you want a bigger tablet, though, you may be stuck going with an iPad. But if you want to save a couple hundred bucks and stick with Android, go Kindle Fire.
And don't wine about it not having full Google Apps or access to the play store or anything. You said you wanted something simple. This is simple.
We got one for my dad a couple of years ago who is in his 60s, and he loves it.
Just get an ipad - I got a cheap second hand ipad 1 for my mum (85) and she picked,up using it just fine. I never have to help her much unlike her normal computer.
To the poster who said about CPU / graphics power, potentially don't worry as most older folk are only really looking to use the web and read email, neither of which are intensive.
To the poster who said about full size vs compact : in my mums case she asked me to get her an ipad mini after playing with mine. In her case it wasn't about the screen size but because her arms aren't too strong it's easier for her to hold up and use! The air might be an option these days but it's a lot more money...
In general I think that like children, you shouldn't "dumb down" stuff for old folk unless you absolutely have to. It's not as necessary as many would have you believe. In children having to think more helps them learn and in older folk it helps stop them forget!
I know the obvious answers are 9'' iPads/Android tablets, but IMO with sending emails as a requirement he's better off with a Chromebook. It's super-easy to use and has a real keyboard that doesn't require holding down a virtual key to get extra options. According to Google, most of them haved a 11.6'' display, but there are several with a 14'' display. Also, they're dirt cheap.
I would prefer an iPad Air.
iOS is much more save than Android and the support by the manufacture for the system is much longer than on most Android platforms.
My mum bought iPads for both of her parents last xmas and they both picked it up easily enough once the initial setup was done.
I've had one for a year now and am quite happy with it. It was much more affordable than the iPad too. Its form factor beats the iPad because you can slip it into your front pocket (of your jeans). No extra carrying case required. Of course I often have to repossess the thing from my wife, who sneaks out of the house with it squirreled away in her purse.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
Google Nexus
No sig today...
I'm in the same situation with my dad. He's finally decided that there are too many things that really need internet access, such as shopping and booking holidays. After much discussion, we've decided that a laptop would be better for him. Tablets are great for browsing, but as soon as you need to do things a proper keyboard wins. OK, that's partly my preference as well, but I don't want him to hit a limitation.
He may also want to do some basic photo editing. He likes photography, and has been getting by with a printer that has a card slot for his SD cards. The ability to do basic edits and back up his photos will be useful.
And yes, I'm going Windows for him. I can't justify the cost of a Mac, and his peers all have Windows so they can swap advice. For someone who hasn't used it before, Windows 8 is fine - he won't have that learning curve of everything being different.
Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
Whatever is wrong with a Chromebook?
They run ChromeOS, which is Linux. They're made for this sort of public. Easy and well-performing web browsing. They're auto-upgraded forever (or until Google gets tired...).
Jeesus h Christ... Are there really people so indoctrinated by jobs? Every word you just said is wrong on every level,... Bravo.
For gods sake man, just get him an iPad. The 9.7" model has lower DPI/bigger buttons. It's easy to use.
The older models are cheap. Get a 2 or an Air, the other ones haven't got enough GPU power.
Hate to agree, but yes.
Sometimes the right tool for the job is just that, the right tool for the job.
No sig today...
It's just the best/easiest.
Windows 8. Just show him all the gestures first.
Which cheap Android tablet receive updates and patches 2-3 years after it was launched?
As opposed to the tablet that costs 2x - 3x that might continue to receive patches?
You do the math.
And for the OP, honestly ANY tablet will likely do. C'mon, let's be serious, we've seen 2-year olds drive tablets. Easily. Pinch to zoom and about as intuitive as you can get is what describes 90% of tablets out there. Whether you go for the iStandard or not is a matter of usage and intent (and honestly, budget). Doesn't sound like your Dad will be pushing the limit there either.
When my dad asked what he should buy as a computer as per normal I asked what he would be doing with it.
Most people will answer email or web or games. His answer was "I don't know, but everybody has one." I ahve waited all my life to respond to that and the response was "Just because everybody jumps of a bridge, would you too?"
Well, not in those words. I explained that there were better options for him. I do know that there are many old and elder people who are interested in learning how to work with a computer. My parents are just not the type. Buying a phone is a challenge. I was just able to buy a 'normal' cellphone for them. Previously I bought a phone designed for the elderly and that was too complicated. A smart phone? No way! No idea what I am going to do in the future. Perhaps I have an old Nokia lying around somewhere that I can send them.
The ATM is going OK, but was also a challenge. It is technical after all.
So what was the solution I have for them? Something they already have: peoples skills and a phone. If they want to contact anybody, they can call them. No need to send an email and get no reply because people forget to answer. If they want to look something up, they can go to the bar/restaurant (they live in Spain where people live more outdoor anyway) and ask somebody. The worst case scenario is that they have to buy the guy or girl a glass of wine (and get one back).
Instead of calling me on how to turn on the screen to get to the googly page, they have (another) excuse to call me and I do the search for them. Or even worse, explain them that they have been had by entering their credit card to protect their PC and in 10 years still get charged for a program they no longer use. Or thought they were helping this nice Nigerian gentleman.
As I know them, I knew they would not be using the computer anyway. They have never used or worked with a computer at work. So absolute zero experience. So that is why I advised against it. To me it was a technical solution for a social problem. So no-go. Computers are not always the answer. Obviously YMMV.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
This.
My mother struggled like mad with an ipad after I lent her mine, that she decided that after all she didn't want one and stuck with her laptop. It also kyboshed her desire for an 'iphone' when after I explained that while all her friends may have one, an iphone is just a very small ipad - smaller screen, smaller icons.
Dexterity is a problem, holding the tablet withoyt realising that your contact with the hand you are holding it with is preventing the finger on the other hand from being able to move the icons. She just ended up putting on a table flat to use in case she accidentally touched the screen in the wrong place.
It was quite suprising as I hadn't considered that using an ipad would be that hard.
Turns out my father also struggled with the touch-screen environment on my sister's iphone.
The support from Apple is great. His father can take free classes in an Aplle store for a year.
Seniors, who have been taking care of themselves, and others, for decades do not like to feel like they need their children to teach them things or hold their hands. They value independence and have plenty of pride.
Jeesus h Christ... Are there really people so indoctrinated by jobs? Every word you just said is wrong on every level,... Bravo.
I don't think so. What is evident to almost everybody is that Apple has remained, largely a hardware company and likewise Microsoft has for the most part remained a software company. Google however isn't even a search company any more. It's a company that turns the users into a product up for auction.
Nobody, but people like you, doubt that going with the free/cheap Google option means you pay with something else than monetary units, you pay with your personal data and privacy. This is where part of the extra money goes when you choose MS office or a macbook/iPad.
Unless spineless wimps like you start pointing out what, precisely, is wrong in this assumption, I'll just assume you are envious cheapskates who can't be bothered to, at least, consider ethical problems in tech.
The new version of the Nexus 7 gets my enthusiastic vote for the uninitiated. It's also great for ebook reading and displaying a photo collection. And only $229.
I was in the same position with my mum a while ago. She never had any contact with the web until she tried my tablet. From her experience (I just asked) and mine I have to say that the what doesn't matter that much. What is important is the size of.... well everything. Nine inches at least or the touch screen keyboard and text will be to small.
The Font Size:Huge thing is one the most important aspects. We all missed links on a touch screen but older people can be somewhat confused when they miss a link. Find an Analogy to explain that this sometimes happens (to you too).
He should be set if you throw in some accessories like a tablet pillow.
This one would be a: -1, Fanboi Bait
btw: Anything *at all* will do. My father happily uses Ububtu on an old Dell laptop. He had never used a computer before that.
Whatever you choose, just set him up a few app shortcuts (browser, mail, skype) in an obvious place. Perhaps also add some bookmarks to the browser and a few games.
And save yourself some $. Don't trick yourself into believing that a more expensive tablet would get more appreciation. That's not how parents work. He's your dad, not your bitchy gf.
Clearly based on the criteria you provided, you meant a Windows Surface Tablet.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
The Kindle Fire HDX seems pretty easy to use but most importantly has a "Mayday" button that brings a real person online:
"The tech support person can see your screen, draw blue and yellow arrows and circles on it to show you what to do, and even control it. These presumably very, very patient and cheerful folks are available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and Amazon says that most calls will be answered within 15 seconds."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/02/kindle-fire-hdx-review_n_4025501.html
Seems like the no brainer choice for your situation.
I agree with everything except the iPad 1 part. I think an iPad 2 would be a better choice -- the iPad 1 was underpowered when it was new, mostly from a RAM perspective and it ought to be reasonably cheap as well.
I gave my wife my iPad 1 when I got the 3, and since iOS 6 came out there's been a lot of legitimate complaining about apps crashing and hanging, even the email app.
If you go the Android route, consider the Nexus 10 which has a much bigger display which is much more comfortable to read on. For a 70-year-old a Nexus 7 is probably going to be very hard to read and accurately type on.
*You* will be supporting this decision. *You* need to make it. Do you use Android devices? Get him an Android, preferably of the same manufacturer so you can explain the subtle differences. Do you use Apple? Then you have no decision to make. Set up a way to dial in remotely (SSH server, port forwarding on his router, and a remote desktop application of your choice) and learn to cringe whenever his number shows up on caller ID.
I am no Apple fan but I tend to agree just for the fact that he can take it to the store and get help if/when you are not around.
Keep the Classic Slashdot.
Every tablet made by asus?
My mother struggled like mad with an ipad after I lent her mine,...
Your father was either a very very smart man, or there's a smart recessive in gene in your familiy.
He is in his 70s and the internet is a bit of a mystery to him, but he asked me about a way to send/receive email and watch online videos
Ah yes, he wants to watch "online videos". Really, the old goat will be browsing 4chan and redtube when he hears you closing the front door behind your ass.
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
and if there is one he likes.
I can vouch for the iPad. My dad was the same way as yours and now he's hooked on it.
If you do get it, the new iPad Air is thinner and lighter, making it easier to hold. Try a self standing cover to protect it, it also makes it easier to use on a table.
I suggest adding gmail app (easier than the native mail app), and finding/adding other apps he might be interested in, particularly netflix if his buliding's wifi can handle it.
What I do not recommend is just dumping the box on him and expecting to not find it at the back of the closet later.
Whatever you choose, spend some time learning it yourself so you can later spend half a day expertly teach/learn it with him, answering questions, and putting useful/fun apps he wants on it. Afterall, humans use tools they find utility in, help him find utility in one, whether it be games, entertainment, or practical things.
I've set up Android tablets for a number of family members and friends who had limited technological prowess, had very limited goals for what they wanted to be able to do and/or were intimidated by the interface and operation of a tablet. In each case the first thing I do is to replace the stock launcher with something that's more easily customizable. For tablets running Android 4,x I use Nova Launcher. For tablets running 2.x (which won't run Nova) I use Holo Launcher. I use these launchers because you can vary icon size, font size and other visual elements. Then I delete every home screen except one blank one. I disable the "dock" too, just for the sake of simplicity. I set up ONE home screen with a grid of maybe 3 columns by 5 rows, and I make my icons and fonts as large as I can that will still display clearly within that grid size (it's easy to see when you've made things too big). For anyone who finds the interface hard to read I'll go into Settings/Accessibility and make text larger (this setting changes ALL text, including on the display screens and in most apps). I custom build the home screen to fit the needs of my user but a generic example would probably have Dolphin Browser (basic operations like bookmarks are very intuitive), Gmail, theScore or ESPN for sports fans, Google Play Store, maybe YouTube. If they have certain web sites that they want to be sure they can get to I'll put an icon on the home screen that goes directly to those sites. Maybe they'd want the Kindle app, or Facebook, or Google Maps, maybe Calendar or Contacts, but I try to err on the side of simplicity for novice users. I'll drop on a Google Search widget and a Clock/Weather widget that looks colorful and I'll set a nice background photo that looks good but doesn't make things harder to read. In a lower corner I'll add an icon for Apps (having eliminated the Dock) and an icon for Settings. We're talking about tablets but if I was setting up a smartphone I'd have the essential call/text/camera icons on that lowest row as well. I'll spend some time with my novice user going over the layout and functions, make changes as needed and then "lock" the home screen so they can't accidentally delete something. What I deliver to my user is a device that has easy access to ONLY what he/she says is needed (the Apps icon will always get you everything else). I want the user to feel as though they can master the functions they have and become comfortable with the interface (novice smartphone/tablet users often have never used a touch screen or swiped to navigate). As they become more familiar and more confident they, or I if needed, can effortlessly expand the displays and uses. A new user who feels comfortable and confident will use the device and, in time, likely want to learn more. A new user who feels intimidated and lost will get frustrated quickly and stuff the thing in a drawer.
1) Pick any Android tablet you like the look of. They all have Wifi.
2) Got to Settings > Display > Font Size = Large or Huge.
3) There is no third step.
I don't have first hand experience, but I bet iPads and Windows tablets have exactly the same settings. Probably best to get a larger-screened tablet if you're going to jack the font size right up- so Nexus 10 / iPad-not-mini or similar.
Other than that- honestly, take your pick. The interfaces are all pretty idiot proof. I have first hand experience of my Gran getting an iPhone and she seemed to pick it up quickly enough, while my Dad owns a Samsung Android phone and an elderly uncle owns a Kindle Fire HD, and they both seem happy. Normal selection criteria also apply- if you get "cheap as you can find" you'll probably find responsiveness etc. is poorer; and if you're catering to a tech dunce, best to keep extra barriers to acceptance to a minimum. But then again, if he doesn't intend to use it for anything more than a little web browsing, it wouldn't be worth spending a king's ransom on it.
The summary does not unambiguously lead to picking up an iPad so it can not be expected to be a shill.
And now you've just overcomplicated the whole thing by suggesting a new launcher. Jesus Christ on a stick man. The only reason you think Android is better is become they are dumping their tablets at a loss?
My Samsung galaxy tab 2.
I installed cyanogenmod and its going to get "kitkat" shortly.
Which expensive tablet only allows you to run what the vendor says you can?
I say 8.9" as opposed to the 7" so he can view pages using a larger font and have that extra 2" diagonally for more screen real estate. You can ditch the Mayday button and save $150 ($229 vs $379). If he has you, why would he need Mayday? :)
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
Funny enough I just gave my grandmother an iPad 3 weeks ago. After about 3 1ahour sessions she has become amazingly proficient with it. To add to her difficulty in understanding the UI concepts she also has a severe case of macular degeneration which prevents her from seeing small text and what not AND only speaks French. To my amazement the next day after returning home from visiting her (I live across the country from her) I receding several iMessages and a FaceTime call - I didn't even teach her how to use the former (iMessage).
That being said, I love both Android and iOS devices but I felt that simplicity of use fell in the realm of the iPad - and from her amazing usage of it I am even more convinced of this.
My recommendation: get him/her an iPad.
Stay-in-Touch.ca is an app designed for getting older people started on using tablets. You can send him pictures of your life and they just come in a gallery. Videos and text messages too, Skype with no touch? When he has gotten some notion of what the wonderful world of teh web is all about, then he can use the other apps too of course. If you keep looking at Android tv dongles and can't think of what to do with one...try this app!
So i can get an IPAD up and running without an ITUNES account which has my personal data? Further, i can use some sort of "apple cloud" to store my data with apple and this is clearly different then storing the same data with google?
As the AC says below, Apple hardware are front ends for iTunes.
Some of us do consider ethical problems in tech. Apple has never been in trouble for "in app purchases" by kids?
My android has had "profiles" for some time now. The kids profile doesnt have a Credit Card attached.
Read about why Jobs said the i* devices will never be made in the US, or why apple decided to issue bonds instead of just distributing their massive cash balances (HINT: repatriating that money would have lead to them actually paying US taxes).
The Kindle and Nexus are great tablets, as is the iPad, but (especially in the case of the Nexus 7 and iPad) may be a bit pricey and a bit "much" for what you're looking for. The Nook's from B&N are designed primarily as e-Readers, but are fully functional tablets as well with full access to the Google Play store on top of the B&N Book Store too. They're medium-grade hardware, sure, but as an added bonus the posters dad could always get service and assistance in person at a B&N store. They often run classes at local stores on how to use and what can be done with the nook as well.
(Full Disclosure: I work for B&N. Typically I don't try to evangelize the company product line, but in this case I think the shoe might fit the original request. Pro-tip: They often have Certified Pre-Owned (CPO) units cheaper then retail too.)
can someone please recommend the one true religion, for my elderly father? I'm currently torn between Islam and Christianity, but we've heard of problems with both.
So I thought I'd come on the web and ask a forum to conclusively answer, once and for all,
If my 70+ year old dad and mom can figure out an iPad anyone can.
They love theirs, use it ever day, plus facetime rocks.
Get an ipad
Good parts of Ainol Novo8 Mini:
- good resolution (1024x768)
- android 4.1.1, google store out of the box
- excellent built quality, sturdy device
- hdmi out
- micro-sd slot
- front camera (beside back one)
- light, very light
- root-ed
- a bargain around 90$
- reading PDF-s is perfect, video watching also
The not so good:
- viewing angles are weird but one can adjust
- not so great battery (2-3 hours of intensive usage)
- charging time is huge (maybe using an 0,5V 1A could do better, i did not try it as it specifies 0,5V 500mA on the back of device)
- lots of chineese apps ( but because is rooted i could disable/uninstall all of them)
I got the same situation and went with an Android for my parents. Here's why:
1- With many tablets (all Samsung ones, all rooted ones, many others), TeamViewer Quick Support allows you to remote control the tablet from your PC (like Remote Desktop in Windows), which comes in very handy when doing support to a complete techno ignoramus
2- Widgets make things real easy. The home displays his new emails, the weather, a picture frame of the grandkids, maybe some news, and shortcuts to favorite sites and games.
3- 10" is required, because eyes and fingers are old
4- the price is right. an Asus MemoPad 10 is around $229 (190 euros in my country), there's no reason to spend more.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
Well, Windows is for games and as soon as you start a real game all those features disappear. So...how do I get my 70 year old grandpa into PC gaming?
My parents are 70+ since I got them the original nexus 7 they are both addicts of the web.
They send and receive emails. One thing though, stay with the nexus so you get all the goodies from google updates and all.
Kindle Fire - any kind. Interface is very easy for older folk (of which I am), font size adjustable for books, Amazon makes it extremely easy to get movies and such without having to know anything about the internet - and to spend money, of course, but the Prime subscription provides a ton of free streaming movies.
bws
Yeah, it was a metric ton of money but thus far worth every penny. My mother is home-bound and my Dad is her primary caregiver. He greatly enjoys the iPad and has had no trouble using it. He has virtually abandoned his old Mac G5 tower. The iPad is a great social connection to his remaining college chums and keeps him in touch with the grandchildren on Facebook. He loves to play various word games like "Words with Friends."
To be fair, this could all be done with a modern Android-based tablet and I don't think my Dad would have any trouble with it but honestly I'm not going to change horses mid-stream. But the huge app base for iOS helps greatly plus a good deal of my brothers and sisters plus their children have iPads so things are just easier. I never thought I'd advocate for monoculture like this (or even appear to) but this has brought a great deal of joy into my Father's life as my Mother's health has gone downhill over the past few years. This alone has made the iPads worth every penny.
My advice: look at an iPad first but whatever you do don't cheap out.
One advantage of getting him an iPad that can run iOS7 is the fact that it has a setting to scale the default font size up and down. It only works for apps that support it, but the built-in Mail app is one of them, so you can scale the text size up for him.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Says the idiot. Nexus 10 is the SAME PRICE as a base ipad and the same specs. Unless you are suggesting he get his father one of the crappy underpowered frustration tablets like the china knockoffs.
PC came out in 1982. "Personal Computers" AKA microcomputers were around several years before that: CP/M, MP/M, Epson laptop, more. These were in fact in offices at work. I should know, old-fart typing this at my Linux laptop but had a multi-node multi-OS multi-location mixed PC, oddball CP/M, and S-100 bus tri-state network up and running at a NY-based retailer in 1983, with all sorts of non-technical users doing spreadsheets, dBase, word processing, parts ordering, service tracking, rudimentary public electronic communication (Western Union and MCIMail including telexing suppliers in Japan from a desktop terminal or PC).
OP's dad in his 70s. Let's say 75. It's 2013, almost 2014. 1982 is when the PC revolution began, and Apple ][, CP/M, and oddball mixes like my "His networks are Insaaannne!" setup already around then.
Do the math. OP's dad was in his prime working years at the height of the PC revolution all the way up to the launch of the Web. 1982 was 31 years ago. OP's father was 44 or younger. And there wasn't nearly as much age discrimination back then. Let's say dad took early retirement at 62, 13 years ago. That was 2000. That was already the height of the dot-com bubble. Everybody in the office was shopping online at lunch (at other times too), and trading online.
Web invented in 1991. People adding Trumpet Winsock and Mosaic or Netscape right away to get on it from Windows 3.x. The moderatly-successful OS/2 2.0 and then Warp from IBM used "The web is built-in" as one of its selling point over Windows - it came with native OS/2 apps for IBM's own Mosaic-based browser, email, FTP, and gopher.
You damn kids these days. No sense of history.
He said CHEAP. Nexus 10 is the same price as the base ipad.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Agree, my 4yo granddaughter "steals" mum's tablet at 4.30am and uses it to watch cartoons on youtube, I'm sure his dad will figure it out (if he can see it).
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Did you read the question? How are the cameras and higher resolution worth anything to a man in his 70s who just wants to read e-mail and watch movies? The high pixel density on the latest displays is wasted on someone with declining eyesight and presbyopia (and encourages app developers who don't understand this to use tiny fonts, just because they can). And I can't recall the last time I used a camera while reading e-mail or watching a movie. He was asking about a tablet for his father, not for you.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Unless OP's father's memories of "like I used to use" were being stuck in AOL's or Prodigy's walled gardens, why would anybody recommend a "married to Jeff Bezos" Kindle Fire tablet?
Crippled Android fork of a very old version, no access to Google Play or other app stores, nor sideloading (you rooters go away, we're talking about normals here).
If you must recommend a bookstore-based Android-derived tablet, a Barnes & Noble Nook Tablet or, my choice which I own, a Kobo Arc family tablet, are now essentially open Android. Sure, they have their own launchers, own look-and-feel, and work auto-magically with their own bookstores. But they have full access to Google Play right out of the box. I love my Kobo Arc tablet - Android Jellybean, open access to sideloading, other than Kobo's home screen it looks and feels mostly like Android. My Kobo is my Nook eReader, my Google Play Books eReader, my general-EPUB Aldiko eReader, and one of my Kindle eReaders.
A Kindle Fire is a Kindle eReader. Other competing book apps are blocked. Same with many other competing content marketplaces and apps.
And updates and patches matter in this use case, exactly why? Elderly person wanting to send some emails, browse some sites. Not needing nor wanting nor likely even aware of "latest and greatest"?
Get out of your own headspace and into that of the person using it.
You are an idiot of epic proportions. The profit with the iTunes and AppStore is negligible.
They would need to sell 130 billion songs every 3 month to replace the hardware business. Apple makes profit with hardware. Nothin else. Full stop.
My Samsung galaxy tab 2.
I installed cyanogenmod and its going to get "kitkat" shortly.
Which expensive tablet only allows you to run what the vendor says you can?
Same thing I said to the iPad guy. Being able to install new ROMs matters exactly why, to this use case?
No, OP's dad isn't going to give a crap about cyanogen mod. Nor about any of the other "latest and greatest" that Android fanboyz and iFans each seem to thing is so important as you rush down to give the retailers more money every few months, and then root/jailbreak/mod the shiny you just bought.
Everyone is not you.
You might want to leave God's name out of it and invoke the name of someone you actually know.
"So i can get an IPAD up and running without an ITUNES account which has my personal data? "
Yes.
"Further, i can use some sort of "apple cloud" to store my data with apple and this is clearly different then storing the same data with google? "
Yes. Apple doesn't scan your files like Google does.
"As the AC says below, Apple hardware are front ends for iTunes. "
No. Bullshit. The profit is minimal.
"Some of us do consider ethical problems in tech. Apple has never been in trouble for "in app purchases" by kids? "
Only if the patents are so stupid not to use parental restrictions.
It's the parent fault. Not Apple's.
"My android has had "profiles" for some time now. The kids profile doesnt have a Credit Card attached."
Just like with Apple stuff. Only better. Don't let your ignorance and Apple hate shine so through.
"Read about why Jobs said the i* devices will never be made in the US, "
You mean like Samsung stuff is made with child labour?
"or why apple decided to issue bonds instead of just distributing their massive cash balances (HINT: repatriating that money would have lead to them actually paying US taxes)."
Just like Google who pay a lower tax rate than Apple.
Fandroids are real idiots and applaud themselves.
Great specs for the price of $150 with free shipping on a 9" tablet. Does just about everything the big boys do except have a camera. I don't think your dad would be using the camera anyway. Full google play store, excellent resolution on the screen and supports MicroSD if you want to double his storage for about $20 (triple it for $40). Something that is not available on the more expensive Nexus or IPad (they each charge you horrendously for a more expensive model if you want to have more storage).
I trained my 91 year old mother-in-law with a Motorola Xoom. I put I put the email app on the front. Of course, now she can't find the tablet, but that is irrelevant to the question of which tablet to use
I have an Ipod touch (didnt buy it myself even) and I have never used itunes other than to get files onto it (from my already existing collection). Yes I hate that I have to use itunes for that instead of just getting generic usb hdd access to it but that damn I dunno what type of one connection only crap you get with my galaxy s3 isnt realy better either. In mac you even need an extra app to transfer using that protocol.
I dont use either icloud nor the google cloud or anything else. I dont care about syncing music or such crap automatically. It wont fit the entire collection on any of my devices anyway. I use imap access to the same imap server I have been running since 2000. Since then it has seen a shift in clients (yes I started with outlook express and nowadays mostly use my phone) but its still the same old fetchmail setup consolidating my addresses. Btw the ipod mail app was fine but on android the default one sucked majorly. Had to get k9 mail and went through two others that were crap first.
I know not everybody is savvy enough to set this up. But you dont have to use the cloud offerings etc. If you do t want to. For those that cant set this up though... its a feature.
The high pixel density on the latest displays is wasted on someone with declining eyesight and presbyopia
The original poster didn't say anything about declining eyesight and presbyopia.
I'm 70 years old and I can tell the difference between 2048x1536 and 1280x1024. Especially when I'm reading.
I turned my wife's smartphone into her own Jitterbug style large print/large icon phone with that app. A tablet using it would be quite easy for your Dad with just a little set up. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=name.kunes.android.launcher.activity&hl=en
Congratulations on your statistics-defying eyesight, but "tablet equivalent to those phones with the big numbers" sounds like an acknowledgement that his father is experiencing the changes in eyesight that are typical of people in their 70s.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Sometimes the right tool for the job is just that, the right tool for the job.
I agree with you 100% but when do raving fanbois actually believe that? And I am pointing the finger at every company/manufacture based clique out there.
The Taiwanese touch screen is on the loose. Android is the cheapest operating system. My dad, 77, has an iPad and it's fine and he uses it, but he'd have been just fine with a $45 Shenzhen special. These are becoming like light bulbs (which used to be considered "repairable" in the late 1800s) and there's no reason to pay hundreds for an Apple light bulb.
Gently reply
Who said anything about cheap? I certainly didn't. I wouldn't recommend one of the cheap ones really, but something like a Nexus, Kindle Fire, or Asus Transformer makes a great tablet and is far more cost effective than an iPad. A man in his 70's is probably less likely to care about the only real reason to spend money on an iOS device, which is having the new shiny so one can look cool like the other kids in class.
I"ve been using one for development testing the past three months. 9" for $150. Yes, it is last years tech but it is more than capable for general use and even light gaming. B&N did skin the interface a little bit and it should be easy for him to navigate.
Come on, what's with this tablet iPhone/Android/Galaxy BS..
Get your dad a real piece of iron: ASR33 teletype and load up Unix on a PDP11 for him. He's a man, he can load the papertape for PINE when he needs to do email.
Last year, I was in your situation: I wanted to give my father a tablet.
The then best tablet (Nexus 7, 2012 model) was the first Android that I considered giving my father (he's from 1940, not tech-savvy at all: the laptop that my parents had was only used by my mother).
He took a look at it, shrugged and said 'I will never use it'.
The first app I installed on it for him was a teletext app, with which he could read teletext. (I know, not the first app I would use myself). But he used it.
And now it is difficult for him to leave home without it: it is as if he wants to sleep with it;-0
Since the first Nexus 7, there are other good tablets out there. I guess the Nexus 7 model 2013 is still unbeatable in terms of price/quality ratio, so I would suggest him that. Possible reasons to go for Android and not iOS:
- there is a growing number of people using Android. His grandchildren, having a cheap Android phone can help if anything is amiss
- the price/quality ratio is good
- I am using it myself.
Now, if you are a heavy iOS person, you may be better of choosing an iPad: you would then be more at home with it, and help if necessary. But my personal experience is that the Android version that came with the first Nexus 7 was that 'intuitive' that my father used it instantly.
Your last paragraph of info is a key seller. If most of the family is using Apple boxes, the father will have no problem watching movies sent by the family or interacting with any other IOS apps. And anyone in the family may be able to help him. At the same time I'd vote Nexus 7/10 depending on what scale device is easiest to use for dad because most of my family is in the Android world. Had to hunt down an Android app to view an iPhone .mov file once and update an XP machine to view the .mov file. So the hard question is: what is the father's circle of friends and family on?
My parents are in a similar situation. I created them the accounts they needed and sent them Nexus 7.
The nearest Apple store to them is 2 hours away, and a half hour in the car is pushing for my mother. Don't assume everyone has access to an Apple store. Or can even make it out of the house for that matter.
Even better yet, if no apple store nearby, a Game Stop, or Best Buy, both have used, refurbished A-pads. About the half price of a new one.
There's also the fact that almost everything provided in Android updates can be done via applications. Keyboard changes, notifications, lock screens, etc, are all replaceable. It's nice to get OS updates for as long as possible, but it's really not as important as one might think.
You can choose to store your data at iCloud. It's not a requirement. Cloud storage is just a small part of Google monetizing your data.
...which is *exactly* why it works!
That's actually no longer even close to true. Last I heard, they're making quite a tidy profit on iTunes content.
Anything Android. Apple is not easy, it's just consistent. Android can be customized for the user to be wrapped around *their* paradigm of understanding. Apple just flips you the bird; it's their way or the highway.
Get something with at least a 10" screen. Maybe there are also accessibility apps that can "magnify" the screen globally enlarge text sizes.
Research and install the simplest launcher you can find; one where you can change the icon size and names. Remove as much abstractive association as possible., ie.: "Netflix" becomes "TV and Movies", whatever mail app it has becomes "email", "Chrome" becomes "Internet" (yes, I know, millions of nerds just cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced) ... you get the idea. Everything should just be exactly what it says.
Cyanogenmod has a secondary "Car Home" launcher that is really just a launcher with big, customizable icons (in a 2x3 grid, IIRC, so that'll be huge on a 10" tablet)
This isn't about having the latest and greatest geekery, he obviously won't give a shit. This is about *you* being able to make this as simple as possible for him.
Their gear may be pricey, but it Just Works, and everything integrates. But I know how you young whippersnappers love fiddling with the latest Ubuntu release until it almost works, so have fun.
And don't let your apple pandering sauce your judgement, also. Guess who makes the memory chips for apple. Fanboys eat child labor to their displeasure?
Come now, if business is so important to success, that you have to "cheat" to make your product, should people complain of the subsidy? Should you honestly look at the product and not see the death and destruction that are made by it? Should the USA Business interests have controlled the TPP? Just like they sold out our freedom for a dollar, and created a new overlord of the world. Go start reading and see how the TPP will affect you...and sponsored by both MS &Apple... Check some of the odd rules, like you don't own the thing you bought, but the intellectual property belongs to whoever stole it from you.
>> You damn kids these days. No sense of history.
Plus apparently they think everyone is entitled to retire at age 45 as well.
Did you read the question?
did you read the reply you responded to?
How are the cameras and higher resolution worth anything to a man in his 70s who just wants to read e-mail and watch movies?
that's exactly what the reply said. Get an onler ipad mode without the high resolution display and camera. Duhhh.
The high pixel density on the latest displays is wasted on someone with declining eyesight and presbyopia (and encourages app developers who don't understand this to use tiny fonts, just because they can). And I can't recall the last time I used a camera while reading e-mail or watching a movie. He was asking about a tablet for his father, not for you.
errr... you sound foolish now eh?
Not that a senior citizen especially needs sideloading, but last time I had a Kindle Fire in my hands, there was an option to "allow installation of applications from unknown sources" just like on stock Android. It's apparently still in the HD models.
I'd read it as has a "Simple as hell interface."
Nexus 10 is the SAME PRICE as a base ipad and the same specs.
Same price, yes. But otherwise, TOTAL BULLSHIT. You could, you know, actually educate yourself by looking at Nexus 10 specs vs. Apple iPad specs, but here are some highlights:
Processor:
Nexus 10: CPU: Dual-core A15, GPU: Quad-core Mali TS04
iPad: Dual-core A5 Chip (CPU and GPU combined, ugh)
Display:
Nexus 10: 2560 x 1600 (300 ppi)
iPad: 1024-by-768 resolution at 132 pixels per inch (ppi)
RAM: Nexus 10: 2GB ... can't imagine why Apple doesn't want to advertise that).
iPad: 512MB (actually had to look that one up on Wikipedia
There's more, but you can see (if you take your Apple blinders off) that the iPad isn't even in the same ballpark as the Nexus 10.
"a half hour in the car is pushing for my mother."
Well why don't you get their car fixed before you buy them a tablet. Your poor mother...
not in comparison with the revenue from hardware. which is kind of the point.
As someone who is suffering from declining eyesight because of too many years looking at CRTs, I have to disagree. I recently switched from a first generation iPad to a higher version and have to say that the increased resolution means, to me at least, that the screen is a lot easier to reed. The extra resolution makes the characters on a web page or email a lot less fuzzy and I don't have to concentrate to as much to make out what it says.
A chromebook needs almost no administration by the user. It has a keyboard, plays videos, does email.
I own laptops running windows and linux, had an ipad, have two kindle fires and a chromebook. My wife and kids use most of the devices. I have to do things to fix glitches on all of them, except for the chromebook. The chromebook just works. It doesn't run fancy software but it connects to wireless without a lot of confusing dialogs, it does email great as long as it's online email like gmail, yahoo, or fastmail. It plays videos great (youtube, amazon, netflix). I don't think you can run skype on it, but video chat on google works great. It cannot play movies from a dvd by plugging one into a usb port.
Anything windows or traditional linux based is going to eventually need administration by someone with at least a little computer knowledge. Same thing to a lesser extent with apple.
Unless your Dad is different from most older people I know, he won't like typing on the screen. He would prefer a keyboard. You should ask him.
As for fixing things when they get screwed up, nothing is easier than the chromebook. I didn't need to wipe it and restore it, but I tried it just to make sure it works.
It did. Everything came back. It took about 15 minutes.
No phone, not expensive, and Android isn't that hard to learn. The 10 inch might be better if his eyesight is poor
... called an ipad. perhaps you have heard of it.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
I bought a Dell Venue 7 for myself a month ago, and so far, I love it. There are lots of choices out there, and therefore the request for advice. The Venue 7 is a cheap but nice Wi-Fi only tablet with 2 GB of RAM, a dual core Intel processor, 16 GB storage + microSDHC slot, and a relatively stock build of Android. The Chrome web browser is one of the best reasons to get a modern Android tablet vs. the others. If the screen size isn't too small, the Venue 7 is extreme overkill for email, web browsing, and watching videos. It doesn't have a microHDMI port, and it doesn't have an indicator light to blink at you when you receive new email; those are the only drawbacks I've noticed. But how easy is Android for an older guy not so familiar with computers? I can't answer that question.
I'd say the nexus 7. It has twofold advantages. You can spend a couple hours showing them how to use the installed apps, access the web, how to type on the keyboard, and how to connect to the wifi. That's all they really need.
Yes. But hey don't let facts get in the way of slash-tards having a whine about somebody else's choice.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
The summary mentions nothing about seeking a cheap tablet. It says his dad has a cheap phone plan that he might change.
The 16GB nexus 10 appears to be $449 with the 16GB iPad starting at $499.
Hey, camera resolution is important because accidental selfies can be hilarious!
Somewhat related, be sure to tell him not to take the device in the bathroom...
Oh, high pixel density displays usually allow for a much nicer quality when text is zoomed.
iPads have VoiceOver, Zoom, Large Text, White on Black, Speak Selection, Speak AutoText, Mono Audio, AssistiveTouch, and Triple-Click Home. What they don't provide, third party developers provide.
photosMy Photostream
It also has many built in functions for people with poor eyesight, hearing, and motor skills. VOIP can be set up so he can use it as a phone.
photosMy Photostream
If you think Apple is any better than MS or Google in the privacy stakes then I have a bridge to sell you. Apple, Google and MS all have their own browser to sell you. They all have an app store. They all have preferred search engines and you can bet every one of them is selling every tiny piece of data it can track for every user.
The only difference is that Google fans come away with some change on the purchase over Apple and MS fans.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
My 80+ yo mom has an iPad I, works fine for her. Remember, she's not compiling anything or playing Minecraft. She's just reading some web sites, playing music and light email.
The thing has been amazing - no tech support calls in years. No more LogMeIn sessions. Unless the user has a specific reason to need a newer version (some specific software, like iOS 7), then the older ones work just fine. It's still sitting on the original iOS as I don't want to change anything at this point. The chance that she will run into a security issue is pretty minimal, even with the older OS / browser. She doesn't keep credit card info on it, browses only limited sites and only emails family and friends.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
When you make a decision on a device, you need to know your client - the geriatric-instead of your own personal preferences.
1. Does it meet their needs.
2. Simplicity of operation.
3. Ease of recovery from a problem.
4. Is it easy to read?
5. Is is light in weight?
Why a camera? Skype and FaceTime. Yes, the older generation like being able to see their grandkids and would use it. So, a camera and decent mic and audio are very important.
The iPad Air is probably the best bet. Android tablets are good devices for the tech savy. Unless your parent or grand parent is is very strong technically, Android probably isn't he best choice - to easy to mess things up.
Now, if you don't mind going over all the time to fix the device (they would like that, too), go with something easy to use and fix ( Reset to factory settings...auto download of apps).
My recommendations. You may or may not agree.
Get him a Nexus 7 or Nexus 10. It doesn't need any discussion.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
I just picked up a Nook HD for my mom for $80. The Nook skin for Android is pretty simple, the 7" platform is light enough to hold up when reading ebooks, and the display is still good enough for movies/great for reading books. The only trick is to watch flash video you need to add a browser like Puffin.
We selected the current iPad. My grandfather has never used any computer in his life, at best he has used a typewriter a few times. In this case is was more for video conferencing (FaceTime) so, the screen, camera and microphones were high on the list of importance. His eyesight is really good since he had cataract surgery about 6 years ago, he still reads constantly. Ease of use and robustness was the most important since I live 1400 miles away and none of the nearby relatives have any technical skills.
The hard part was - the supervised care home he lives in does not have WiFi so we had to use a cellular hotspot. I went this route instead of buying a tablet with built-in cellular because, I could set up and test the tablet before I went out and just had purchase a hotspot from the company the had the best service at his location. I stripped the interface/ apps down to 4 buttons, FaceTime, ibooks, freebooks app, messages, and then a folder for settings and everything else I could not turn off, restrict or remove.
Being that he is a WWII vet and then worked in a factory for decades, he is very deaf. In testing it with my brother I was using AKG K240 headphones in hope with hearing aid and the headphones he might be able to hear, I did not want to use earbuds since most old people get wax build up problems from the hearing aids pushing the wax back into their ears, I did not want to make that problem worse. The AKG K240 headphones are an open air design that allows sound to both leave the headphones and the wearer to hear sounds outside the headphones. When the volume was very loud the bleed from the headphones started to cause problems with the echo canceling in FaceTime. The audio would get choppy as the echo canceling had more volume then it could deal with. I picked up some AKG K271 headphones which are a sealed design, and that solved the echo canceling issue. I found it strange to not be able to hear myself when talking, I figured he is likely used to that. As it turned out he has to have it at full volume but he can hear better over it then if you in the same room with him. He is past the gain before feedback levels the current hear aids can deliver, I don't see that improving much more anyway.
Photo stream was an added bonus, I never used it before or cared about but my brother started sending my grandfather's iPad photos, so we invited all the relatives to his stream. Now all the grandchildren and great-grandchildren can send him photos and movies that they make.
The contrast, icon sizes, clean look and that every household in the family had a least one iDevice drove the iPad selection. Only a few households had Android devices. It is very easy to tell someone is trying to contact you on iOS. I still struggle with at a glance knowing who has contacted me and in what way on my Android.
There is no evidence CRT damages eyesight.
Congratulations on your statistics-defying eyesight
Age-related presbyopia is easily remedied with cheap reading glasses. If you're also nearsighted and don't wear contacts you can just take your glasses off to read. If he had cataract surgery and the surgeon used a CrystaLens (more expensive than a standard IOL) he can probably see better than a kid.
Free Martian Whores!
Didn't imply that that they did, just that I've been working with computers for a while. Could have said Teletypes, card punches or DECwriters rather than CRTs...
I've been reading this thread, and didn't want to get lost in the iPad debate, so I'm just posting fresh. As someone who's used both products, I'd say that I'm pretty over Apple stuff after over 25 years. But after making the switch from an iPhone 4 to a Galaxy S4, I'll tell you this, I lost something. And I found this out after my phone broke, but it applies to anything Apple really makes. They have Apple stores, and AppleCare etc, things that are designed to help make their products easier to use and are supported. An 18 year old clerk at the Apple store has more power than high level tech support people at most of these other companies making Android tablets. For me I notice the difference when something breaks, that I don't really have a place to go, and I'm not sure if I'm going to have to pay out of pocket and wait a long time to get my device back leaving me frustrated. For a senior, usually it's not something that's broken, but something they need to learn. Apple has classes at their stores for free and stuff. I'm not suggesting it from a purely device perspective, as I wouldn't want one under my Xmas tree, but I think from a support standpoint it's great for people who are making that first time plunge into technology.
The worlds easiest computer. http://telikin.com/
Can be used like a tablet, but is infinitely easier. Never fight with passwords, and if he gets confused, you simply VNC in to him as his "tech buddy".
My Mom loves hers.
Did you respond to the wrong "thread"? This one was asking "Which cheap Android tablet receive updates and patches 2-3 years after it was launched?".
So my response was in line with the question being asked.
"Everyone is not you"
Did i say i recommended this for the OP's Dad?
I was just noting that many androids (including my tab) are supported by cyanogenmod and receive updates 2-3 years later.
I think you are reading too much into things.
My mom is in her 70's and very happy with her iPad 2. She lives in the Netherlands, and I in Mexico. She uses it to check out Facebook (my mom!), send email / messages, and Skype with me, my wife and our children. Each time I talk with her she can't resist telling me how fantastic her iPad is and how she has discovered something new.
Perl Programmer for hire
"No. Bullshit. The profit is minimal."
So How do propose i use my Apple TV's?
As you said, the profit is bullshit and there is no tie. The apple TV can only stream from ITUNES, and only play "apple approved" file formats. Further, there is no storage on the device itself (ATV2) so it must either connect to Apple's servers or a desktop running ITUNES, but yeah, there is no "lock in" right?
One of the big difference between Apple and Samsung is one proudly states "designed in California, made in china" while the other doesn't.
"Yes. Apple doesn't scan your files like Google does." - You have a citation on this?
"It's the parent fault. Not Apple's."
Yeah, and that is why Apple settled right? Who rated the games as suitable for kids but yet they need real $$$? Why do the games always try to abstract the fact you are spending money? One one hand apple fans love to talk about the pro's of the "walled garden" but not its failings?
PS. I'm not a "fandroid". I actually have several Apple products (MacPro, AppleTV's, IPODs).
Screen size is important, very important, get a 10 inch tablet or bigger and nothing smaller.
Touch screens seem to easier to learn the system then a regular keyboard mouse set up, it appears my dad is able to divine more from a touch screen than his desktop set up (he still can't cut n paste).
Font size, brightness and other vision problems have to be considered, it's hard to "imagine" having bad eye sight but try.
High density displays (high res) appear to reduce eye strain for my dad.
Remember this, what seems so obvious and simple to us is sometimes the least obvious thing to them and not as easy to grasp as you might think. When dealing with the elderly patience is the key.
I suck at it by the way, but I try.
There were 2 choices for me (well dad really), the android 10 inch tablet or the iPad, the iPad is like a comic book and IMO is easier to learn.
One other thing, I've watched him use computers for years now, seen why it's hard for him (mostly eye sight and no previous reference point for understanding the GUI) but the thing I am left wondering is, if I make it to 88 what will there be that I can't figure out?
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
One thing you should be aware of -- Adobe no longer supports flash on Android, and to my knowledge it has never been available on the ipad. A *lot* of video on the net is still flash. Wife was very upset to find that the websites she wanted to frequent (mostly rebroadcasts of soaps or football) all used flash, and none would work on her tablet. This was true for Facebook as well -- some videos would work, but flash-based videos would not.
It would therefore be a very good idea if your dad played with a tablet in the store, and tried visiting the websites and playing the videos as he would do as an owner, and see if they work.
Wife had intended for the Fire to replace her laptop, but with the flash issue, she ended up carrying around the laptop *and* the Fire. From a "carry fewer items" standpoint, the Fire was a complete failure. Still, it's easier to handle and you can hold it over your head in bed without fatigue.
Ipad? I dunno, some people swear by them. I support applications on the ipad, and so was issued one, but after carrying it around for two weeks, I realized it was yet another device to carry, as I'd still need my laptop. I gave it to teenage daughter and wife to play with, and they soon got bored with it. It's great for certain kinds of content consumption. The lack of flash made it even more useless to my wife than the Kindle, (being larger and heavier) and daughter didn't see anything it could do that her phone couldn't, the phone being a more compact unit that she's more likely to have on her. I ended up giving the ipad back to work, and they issued it to someone else, who no doubt loves it.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
"Well why don't you get their car fixed before you buy them a tablet." sqlrob said his mom has a hard time with more than half an hour in the car, not that the car is having problems.
My 70 YO brother was able to Facetime with me, without training, once he upgraded his iPad. So cameras are useful. Actually being able to see, without travel, relatives at an age when monitoring is more of an issue is valuable.
I just bought an ASUS MeMO Pad 7 for my daughter and I'm in the midst of configuring it. So far, I'm blown away with the quality for $150. It might be a bit small for somebody with vision problems, but if the larger versions are built as well, this is a no-frills tablet that works beautifully. Outfitted with a case and about $15 worth of software, we have a great gift for less than $200.
They've stripped off a few things to keep the price low, but it's been done so well that you probably won't notice the limitations for a while. The only one of note is that there is no flash for the camera. The battery life so far exceeds what they advertise, and I've loaded enough music, free books, and games on it to keep her happy for years. With email, Skype, and Samba to connect to the server, it's a very powerful and useful tool.
And, no, I don't own shares in ASUS, but I may soon :^)
"Of course he used personal computers" News flash - there were a lot of folks in the work force during the past 50 years who were never an office worker, and the poster did not imply otherwise. Why do you assume that he worked in an office where "everybody was shopping online at lunch"? Maybe he was delivering mail, or whatever.
Sure, an iPad, if the OP wants to spend twice the money that he has to.
Does he love his dad enough to give him the best?
There's a ouija board app?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
How are the cameras and higher resolution worth anything to a man in his 70s who just wants to read e-mail and watch movies?
Higher resolution improves detail, which makes it easier for a person with imperfect eyesight (like myself) to read. Eyestrain for me is largely nonexistent with high resolution displays. I think your assumptions are incorrect.
I got my dad n his 70s a Nexus 10 for father's day. He opened it and had this look of, "Thank you, but what am I going to do with this?". We went through the long process of setting it up. To many accounts, passwords settings, agreements, etc, and his look keeps getting worse. We set up Skype, and I show him how it works and he is still bewildered. So we leave for dinner.
We get back and Skype is ringing on the tablet. Its his brother from California. We answer and he is amazed and delighted. He brings it home and starts spending lots of time Skyping with his family around the world. After a couple weeks he figures out there are other apps, for news and email and the web. He loves it now and thinks it is the best gift ever.
So find your Dad's killer app, and give him a little time and support to discover all a tablet can do.
My mother is 82 years old. Me and my brother tried for years to get her to use computers, with her repeated asking for certain sites of interest. Using a mouse and learning to aim, single click, double click, right click, ...etc is an exercise in frustration because of lack of dexterity and no previous exposure to the paradigm of using a mouse.
We got her and Android tablet, Lenovo IdeaTab 9", but anything 9" or 10" should work. After some coaching during an extended visit, she uses it daily and happy to be on the internet.
Here are some tips:
- Teach them how to click in the address bar and enter a search term or a URL. Also how to scroll down and close a tab.
- Bookmark sites that they use often and teach them how to get to them.
- Tell them if they get stuck somewhere, pressing the back button a few will get them to a familiar point.
- Using the Facebook app will help see pictures of you and grand kids. Depending on your specifics this can be a great thing or a bad thing.
- The difference between what is an ad and what is content is a challenge. Install AdAway from F-Droid if your tablet is rooted, or Adblock Plus from their site with "unknown sources" otherwise. If they click an ad, teach them not to press install at all, unless they call you and you say so.
2bits.com, Inc: Drupal, WordPress, and LAMP performance tuning.
Because, of course, everyone works in offices (offices which were built, apparently, by magic pixies).
As far as tablets go, iOS is way ahead for accessibility because they put a lot of resources into it. There is some decent voice command with Siri, and the screen reader VoiceOver, speaks what is on the screen, reads text, web pages, etc. There is still a learning curve, but it makes things possible. There are braille displays for iOS devices too. http://www.apple.com/accessibility/ios/
For Smart phones, last time I checked what my blind friends were using they said the best thing at the time was a specialized operating system and app for a Nokia phone and it worked really well. But they also said iOS was improving fast and that several years ago.
For dumbphones it's a lot easier, you can get fairly easy to use talking phones, check what the associations for the blind recommend now. Or check http://www.blindbargains.com/
For desktops and laptops I think Windows is still ahead a little because the software packages available for it, JAWS and WindowEyes are built for it and have been around a long time. The learning curve is so steep for them though that they said unless you needed windows, then apple with it's built in, free, screen reader was a cheaper and almost as good option and a lot of blind people do use it.
I know a 70 year old woman who really hadn't used computers much until her recent purchase of an iPhone. She loves it. Facetime, sending pics via sms, email, and google at her fingertips have really enhanced her life. She has become the go-to expert for all her friends and even her daughters on how to use the technology to its fullest.
Bullshit. Only one company has ads at its core and that's google. There is a reason why Google gives away Android and every software they make. Not because they are nice, but because they must have the largest possible audience to sell ads. The the highest as prices are made with targeted ads.
What you save with some Google devices, you pay with personal information. Even if just indirectly. (No Google does not sell your information directly, but they sell targets for ads. )
Neither Apple nor MS are in that business.
How anyone in their right mind can actively and religiously defend Google is beyond me.
They lure gsheeps with some free apps and some code and all of the sudden are they the next messiah???? Seriously? They are just like any other for profit company, except that they deceiving quite a lot of gullible people.
Kindle fire HDX with wifi. Set his email up on it and you are good to go. Super simple interface, can read books, watch movies, use as an email appliance and even play games.
Whoooooosh
I have tried Android tablets. No, no, no. iPad has My vote and will for a long time to come.
Apple doesn't have an advertising based business model (nor does Microsoft) so while they might be looking though your files, they aren't selling the information they glean to advertisers. They don't need to look through it for information to use in targeting ads to you they way Google does.
Apple has their own browser because once upon a time their users were treated like second-class citizens and Apple need to write a fast browser themselves to keep up. Since then the situation has improved with Firefox and Crome, but Apple has continued to use their own browser. I've never seen any indication that Apple uses Safari to track their user's internet usage. That makes sense, because Apple would not have a good user for that data.
I've never seen a "recommended for you" feature on Apple's app store, and if they are tracking what apps I buy (other than simply to allow me to re-download apps) I haven't seen any indication of it. There is a feature in iTunes to recommend new songs to you, but it's off by default.
Apple has a default search engine, but the default is Google. It's easy to change it to Yahoo! or Bing.
Again, I haven't seen any indication Apple is selling any of this information, and it appears they make an effort to respect their users' privacy. Perhaps the problem is that you are so used to getting things for "free" that you don't even realize there are companies out there who don't consider advertising to be a viable business model.
How is a Nexus "far more cost effective" than an iPad, when the price difference is about $50 for the two 10" tablets?
Any suggestions for a good launcher for this application? I have a similar issue with my grandfather.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Really? Apples IAD network is driven by data culled from users of Itunes, Iradio etc. Iad is sold as "targeted by exclusive consumption data exclusive to Apple." Buy you joining their network, you are buying this data, ergo Apple is selling it. You might want to read up on it. http://advertising.apple.com/ Microsoft also has their own ad network, where the data they sell is gleaned from their own sources. http://advertise.bingads.microsoft.com/en-us/sign-up?mkt=en-us
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
And non of this spec fetishism is of any interest. That's what fandroids will never understand. Neither core numbers nor core frequency will say anything about actual speed or usability.
I'm amused why people are offering Android when the answer here is Surface - the original one that retails for 199. This is a better start for somebody who is not familiar and does not have entrenched ideas of how GUI should work.
ASR-33 FTW! Real programmers loaded programs from paper tape - and thought that was a huge improvement over setting register contents using the front panel switches. (How big would such a switch array be for a modern CPU? Would it even fit in the front panel space of a 42-U rack cabinet?!)
N/T.
Apple tv's can install and run Netflix and stream without iTunes.
But an Apple tv isn't quite as restricted as a chrome cast. Which doesn't even have an interface.
Seriously, I prefer Google shit cause it's more versatile, but all of your points make you come across as a complete ass licker.
I can't stand Apple due to the lockdown. But nothing that you or any of the other Apple haters have mentioned is remotely true, or is evidence of side kind of evil.
Now having said that, the guy calling people phandroinds is a tool for thinking the antagonism was anything to do with what people were saying, it's the same problem that politics is having now.
This kind of black and white, us vs them. That I like android therefore android did no wrong, or I like Apple therefore Apple does no wrong.
Stop and think what you are insulting each other about. Don't engage the verbal assault, because every line of verbal assault just makes you look childish (and detracts from whatever point you were trying to make because it appears you are foaming at the mouth while shouting whatever it is)
He didn't specify the Nexus 10, there's also the Nexus 7. The 16GB Nexus 7 is only $229. I have a 32GB N7 that I keep with me almost constantly. (it fits perfectly into a cargo pocket)
My brothers and I got my 88 yo mom a 22" ViewSonic Android device. (not that the brand is particularly spectacular, but for under $400, it's big enough for her to see, and easy enough to hit the icons with her fingers without hitting the wrong one.
She can use the on screen keyboard, and the icons are all big enough for her to use. Everything that she needs is on the humongous "tablet" (No battery, so must be plugged in.) It can also be plugged into a network jack, but I figured the less wires the better for her.
She's not yet comfortable with the voice dictation, but I figure as she has it longer, or her eyesight diminishes, that might be more useful.
She still has trouble with her simple cellphone, however.
I have given iPads to my 85+ year old in-laws with excellent results. My father in law used an iPad 2 with 3G (rural no broadband, but decent "bars") for about a year before he passed. Tried FaceTime but he was too deaf. But Email, iMessage, lots of pics of family in photos and lite web surfing worked fine. Nary and issue after setup. My mother in law is fairly adept, uses apple & her old aol email accts on mail app. Web surfing and shopping on Amazon. Lots of FaceTime with family now spread all around the world. Set up world clock so she could keep track of local time for family in Europe and Asia. Avid reader on Kindle App that I keep filled with titles she likes. Lots of family (especially great grand baby pics and videos) get emailed and she knows how to click to store in photos. She now uses Notes to type simple letters and print on wireless printer. Loaded a couple slot machine apps over Thanksgiving visit. Best thing, easy to support her. FaceTime while I walk her through resolution of issues and maybe only twice needed her to screen print and email me error screens. Anyway been doing this for a couple years and its WAY better than when used to have to to help her with her old AOL Win98 desktop POS.
Here, let me explain the GP's post....
http://i.imgur.com/axJmn.gif
Kitted out all our parents with iPads and/or MacBooks - and explained how they can go into the local Apple store and the genius bar will help them.
If he's used to a PC have him try the Dell tablet. At $99/$199 on sale (and able to run VLC and all the various media types circulating) it's hard to beat as a spare / emergency system even if he finds it too hard to use.
It's his dad. Why is getting a bargain important. When eventually his dad passes away do you think anyone will think "sure glad we saved a hundred bucks on that tablet".
'store'? which store is that? Do we know where this guy lives?
Max.
The answer is: get whatever he can most easily get help for. If you are ipad and he'll call you for help, get him an ipad. If his next door neighbor has an android and he gets help from that neighbor, get him that. Any tablet is functional enough for his needs, so long as he can access its functionality, and he can only do that with some help. No tablet's functionality is useful if he's not patiently taught how to use it.
No. Bullshit. The profit is minimal.
Y'know, I sometimes wonder about this.
According to Apple, users buy 15,000 songs every minute. That would be 21,600,000 songs per day. Just for laughs, we'll say each song is 99 cents and that's $21,384,000 in revenue that just the music store brings in every day. Forget the movies, forget the TV shows, forget the Apps.
$21 million per day. Wow.
Now we have some accounting to do. Yes, the music companies get about 2/3rds of that. But when does Apple transfer that 2/3rds? I doubt it's every day. Every week? Every month? Apple can make pretty good interest on $21 million dollars a day, I would imagine. If they give the money to the music companies every month, that gives Apple 30 days to play with that revenue. I'm sure they can get some pretty good rates on that.
Yes, Apple claims that they end up making about 1 cent of profit from an iTunes sale. But do they count the interest that they accumulate from holding onto that money in their 1 cent of profit?
My mother was 77 last Christmas and I got her an iPad Mini. She had never used a computer before and my late father's attempts to get her to use even a mouse went badly. The iPad Mini has been a hit. She's using email, but keep in mind it's not a great platform for typing much. Skype and Facetime work for her. She really like Solitaire and a jigsaw puzzle app that my wife pointed her too. Weather. Stock report. Photos. These are the things she does with hers.
They can perhaps factor and/or influence, but you are correct that RAM, # cores and frequency don't directly impact usability.
Other people in the discussion seem to make much screen resolution though as being easier to read. This might mean that the difference between 300ppi and 132ppi is a meaningful number for comparison.
My mother, 67 years old and her husband 76, just asked me the same question. Which tablet should they get. Hands down, iPad. One physical push-able button is all they have to learn. They have had it for a month and they are already sending me more emails than I can keep up with.
Old people (and non-techie people) are not stupid. I used to make the mistake of thinking i had to simplify everything to just "one big button" for them as well.
Often times when you try to simplify GUIs you end up adding layers that make things more complicated when they break or the user wants to perform an atypical task.
Buy an ipad, it's intuitive, it's what everyone has - other people can help him with it.
Although Ironically, It literally has "one big button".
Yes, they have limitations, and want to lock you in. But iPads, like most Apple products, are designed obsessively to Just Work. Also, you get the option of having a Retina display, which may or may not be extra-helpful, depending on your dad's vision.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Gees dude, don't cheap out. Most big screen smart TVs can quite easily handle that and now and you can use a tablet as the remote. So 65" of 4K vision (easy to see and read) with a tablet as the remote and for data input. Forget Apple, it is far better to align that tablet with the brand of TV so Android is far more likely to provide the complete solution.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
I just gave my 70-something mother my old iPad2 and fifty bucks on the app store. She's loving it.
I'm hanging out at her place for a week or so as a Christmasish kind of thing, so I've been available to answer her questions and tell her how to do basic stuff. We'll probably go get her a cover with a keyboard in it before I go - she's a touch-typist so she kinda hates the screen keyboard.
Admittedly she's fairly tech-savvy for an old lady - her vcr has never blinked 12:00, she's got an aging Windows laptop that she does stuff on - but if your father's still mostly got it together, you should be able to teach him a lot about how to use it and have an excuse to hang out with him. Don't show him how to do stuff, tell him how to do stuff while you're sitting next to him, and be patient. Then grin happily once he gets it and spends a whole day doing nothing but playing Fairway Solitaire or something.
Hell, I had a good time sitting next to my mom this morning playing a hidden object/adventure game based on A Christmas Carol with her. The iPad mostly stayed in her lap, with me poking at it now and then for some of the kinds of puzzles I'm a lot better at than she is.
egypt urnash minimal art.
ASUS T100... $350 with keyboard, usb, office home/student, full windows 8.1 ... usb 3, sd slot, hdmi-out just in case he wants to hook it up to his telly...
Newsflash - no one uses iAds.
In fact, I can bet Google paid Apple to develop iAd so Google can acquire AdMob, the #1 ad network for mobile devices. Remember, the DoJ was investigating Google over the purchase and decided that iAd was a worthy competitor to AdMob and thus let Google had the sale.
AdMob is everywhere, iAds is not. iAds only work on iOS devices. AdMob works on iOS abd Android (80% of smartphone market, remember?) and probably other devices as well (Windows Phone, BlackBerry).
In fact, Google is probably the only company funding iAd - it's such a poor ROI for everyone involved that Apple should shut it down. Of course, Google won't let them because it puts Google under potential anti-trust.
Seconded. Unless you want to have to worry about providing tech support for exploits, patching, and a host of other issues, the iPad really is the best for less-tech-savvy people.
With the iPad, your tech support will consist of "yeah, okay, uh huh. Just double-tap and it will zoom out again."
Well, you did say "suffering from declining eyesight because of too many years looking at CRTs." If anything, the implication is working with computers. CRTs damaging your eyesight was stated outright.
Not a big deal since we all say/write things that don't properly convey thought of course.
The 16GB nexus 10 appears to be $449 with the 16GB iPad starting at $499.
There's also the new Amazon Kindle Fire HDX @ $229.
7" @ 323 ppi, Quad-Core 2.2 GHz, 17 hour batt reading, 303 grams.
"Mayday" button for help.
https://www.google.com/#q=+Amazon+Kindle+Fire+HDX+7%22
That's actually no longer even close to true. Last I heard, they're making quite a tidy profit on iTunes content.
The percentage of profit that Apple makes on iTunes content is ridiculously small compared to their hardware. That's what matters. Anecdotally, I spend like .1% on iTunes what I do on Apple hardware, as do most of my friends. I knew a Mac developer back in the 90s who complained about Steve Jobs being out to kill the software market - to SJ it's just a feature of the hardware. Apple has this "software/content is just a feature of the hardware" in their DNA.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
Get a car widget for the homescreen. By default the icons are larger. You can use any launcher you want :)
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
I did. Now what?
<quote>My 85-year-old father has had an iPad literally from day 1.</quote>Wow, didn't know they had iPads in 1928!
Twice the cores and twice the RAM for less money seems pretty damn cost effective to me.
I actually ran into this same situation with an older friend of mine. She asked for my help and advice on getting a tablet. I suggested the new Nexus 7 as it is just as easy to use as any other Android/iOS tablet. Besides that, it is less expensive than Apple's products and has a much higher screen resolution. What does she do after I lay out all the options, explain the pros and cons, and give her my informed opinion? She says, "Thanks, I appreciate all your help, but I think I'll get the ipad mini because I hear from my daughter that it's easy to use."
Keep in mind no matter what you get, there is a learning curve. I just don't see any difference between the OS options. And it appears the only factor she considered was what her daughter TOLD her was easy. She ended up paying more for a device with smaller resolution and equal complexity. I still ended up teaching her how to use the ipad mini, and I've never even owned an apple product.
On a side note, her daughter also tried to talk her into cancelling her current internet service and start using a Verizon hotspot AT THE SAME PRICE. Every hotspot I've ever used has had absolutely horrific speeds. At the same price as current service, why do that except if you want connectivity on the move? I managed to talk her out of that since she has a wifi router at home, and wifi is available almost everywhere these days.
Just get him the new Nexus 7. No matter what you buy, he's going to have to learn how to tap and swipe. I have the 2012 model and am very pleased with it. I don't think apple is more or less complicated, just more expensive and over hyped for what you really get.
Right, that and the Amazon ones have remote assistance. Which is a helluva lot better than your having to talk them blind through operating an iPad.
In 1982, kids and computer geeks had PCs. Most kids used them to play games. The office would have maybe 2-3 PCs (remember they started around $5000 or so for an IBM and rose to $10,000 if you went fully tricked out), so maybe the CEO or VP had 'em on their desk. And the accountant, being that accounting was a very popular killer app back then. But the vast majority of people did things the old way.
The real computerization started in the 90s where everyone started having PCs on their desks and were expected to start using it. Probably around 1991 when Windows 3.1 was released (and wildly popular).
And online shopping really only took off about 5-6 years ago - sure people have been doing online shopping and auctions for years before, but a surprisingly large number of people didn't bother and didn't trust it (I still know people who don't do online shopping. It's a pain when they ask me for gift ideas). Don't confuse the internet-savvy with the general population - if the dot-com shopping boom really worked, there wouldn't have been a bust.
At his age I don't think a tablet would be a good idea, he would have to hold the tablet in one hand while tapping with the other and tapping repeatedly on a glass surface is going to cause bruising for him. Go with a cheap/simple laptop instead that you can set up some remote access software on for tech support. Asus makes a really good notebook for ~$250: X200CA, comes with Windows 8 (full version, not RT) and can be reloaded with Linux if desired.
Will he be entering his credit card number into a web browser?
Why just iPad .Also consider Samsung Tab2 10.1 Android tablet or similar . Apple is a locked -in system ; Android has many more free apps. Personally I am very happy with the Android tablet (Samsung Tab2 10.10) .
Frank in northern Scotland
Go to his place with a tablet or notebook and check his access first. It won't be a help is he constantly loses his connection. He will have no idea what the problem is and will blame himself or the tablet when he should probably blame you. :-)
I think you're fine if you stay on iOS 4 but the RAM limitations of 5 are so bad that a lot of apps just crash at random for my wife, including simple stuff like the built-in mail app and Safari, which is of course doomed by graphics-heavy web sites and Javascript.
Even on iOS 4 my iPad 1 used to crash on some web sites with a lot of graphics, like image sites that displayed many images on
Problem is, I don't know how you would downgrade to iOS 4 or even if its possible.
I guess you haven't used your AppleTV in a while then, since it can stream from much more than iTunes. Off the top of my head, it can do Netflix, Hulu, Youtube, Qello, various sports networks, HBO Go, Vimeo, some Disney channels, etc.
Yup! Big difference between the car being pushing for his mom and his mom pushing the car. :)
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Apple haters sare gonna rail against me but the bottom line is if you need an easy wifi tablet you got to go with Apple.. Period.
Just get him a kindle. Can watch videos and check email so it satisfies 100% of his needs and has the additional benefit of being cheaper than an iPad. I'm a developer and don't want a hobby project toy for my tablet that I need to root or have an app store for - I use it exactly like your dad plans to and it works great.
Whoa, buddy, who shit in your cornflakes this morning?
The increased resolution works even when type is enlarged. Even old folks can tell that. My father is 78 and can easily appreciate the resolution difference between the iPad 2 and 3 (it's called having glasses that work). And yes, that increased resolution makes properly ripped movies look better too. Or do you somehow think that people in their 70s are too blind to appreciate the higher resolution there, too?
The camera is because while maybe the guy only says he wants to do a couple of things, it leaves the option open to him to use the camera. For someone so het up about eyesight issues, surely you already knew that the camera app also works as a magnifying glass, right?
But hey, go ahead and only answer the feature set part of the question rather than actually analyzing the problem. Maybe you could post like an patronizing twat while you're at it.
I got my parents a Nook HD, and except for the occasional question which they usually figure out themselves, they're OK with it.
He never said CHEAP!! Learn to fuckin read!
STFU unless you are in your 70's and can comment you tool! Fuckin kids! Get off my lawn!
After having whatever you give him.. for a while.. he will do something new and learn how to do things. Face it, the things are fun..
Have you fscked your local propeller head today?