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Ford Exec: 'We Know Everyone Who Breaks the Law' Thanks To Our GPS In Your Car
An anonymous reader sends this report from Business Insider:
"[Ford VP Jim Farley] was trying to describe how much data Ford has on its customers, and illustrate the fact that the company uses very little of it in order to avoid raising privacy concerns: 'We know everyone who breaks the law, we know when you're doing it. We have GPS in your car, so we know what you're doing. By the way, we don't supply that data to anyone,' he told attendees. Rather, he said, he imagined a day when the data might be used anonymously and in aggregate to help other marketers with traffic related problems. Suppose a stadium is holding an event; knowing how much traffic is making its way toward the arena might help the venue change its parking lot resources accordingly, he said."
Farley later realized how his statement sounded, and added, "We do not track our customers in their cars without their approval or consent."
Farley later realized how his statement sounded, and added, "We do not track our customers in their cars without their approval or consent."
Approval or consent, English-American, verb: To use. To accept the licensing terms. To look at. To think about.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
I guess that's one way of getting yourself fired.
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
What I want to know is, Why does Ford need this data? I understand why people would have a GPS in their car, and why a recording of their actions might be stored on the car (although even more than a short history should be easily erased), but why doesn't this information need to be transmitted back to the car company at all? I bet most people, when asked about whether or not they want a GPS system are not told that the GPS will send information back to the manufacturer about their every movement.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
...they would be fools not to. It's worth its proverbial weight in... well, nothing else is that valuable.
What he really means is they don't share it. But for their own purposes it's a pretty sure bet they analyze the hell out of it.
Don't buy ford.
I for one will never buy a Ford again.
I, an active professor and research scientist, drive a 1982 Dodge Ram Pickup. No tracking, no disconnect, easy to work on engine. I will keep this baby going for the rest of my life, and no company will be tracking my whereabouts. (So long as I remember to turn off my cell phone, which I usually do.)
I am the penguin that codes in the night.
As a consumer, why would this entice me to purchase a car from Ford?
The first thing I'll be doing is hunting around with ball-peen hammer for the GPS module.
The end.
Meaning it's listed somewhere in the bill of sale. "Well you bought the car, didn't you? There's your consent"
Ford does not track their customers without their consent and approval. However if you will bother to go through fine print, you may (or may not) find clauses related diagnostic, monitoring. Sort of your consent, in a case of crash (similar to MS Windows crash report). So basically, consent is implied and if you dig deep enough auto companies have been doing this for a long time.
When ford says, that they do not track, this is comparable to NSA saying that, the fact that they do no track. Well, if you own the data then there is no need to track, because you already have it.
Ford and NSA doing the same thing touted by IT business: dealing with the Big Data. Big Data is being analyzed, used in various models.
The bottom line: your car and your phone know you better than yourself.
If Ford knows people are committing crimes, aren't they legally required to report it, otherwise they become an accessory..?
MABASPLOOM!
So, if Ford gets a court order requiring the tracking of someone, or some class of someones, they will disobey it?
Sure. And all Fords get 1000 miles per gallon, too.
Look for the scenes in new mob movies where part of the initiation into the mafia is taking the GPS out of your car.
Bull. They want the data because others (three-letter organizations) want it and secretly lobbied for it. They don't want the consumers to fully realize this.
This data is also exactly the reason why there seems to be a major push towards taxing driving based on miles - with GPS tracking, obviously.
US-centric look; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_miles_traveled_tax
Same is being pushed around the EU and already in use in some limited areas. Sure, they (three letter organizations, governments) get SOME of the data today but it depends on car manufacturers and on the car having the specific feature. If they can get this kind of tax lobbied (as a replacement to taxing fuel and/or purchase of cars), they can get GPS tracking bits mandatory to every vehicle that comes off the assembly lines (and mandatory retrofit to existing ones) - and all the data comes straight to the tax man, and we know that data used for taxation would never be used for anything else :sarcasm:
This is also being "sold" as a solution to governments that see fuel consumption based tax income potentially going down if/when electric cars become popular. Can't exactly tax the electricity a lot more without major side-effects, so tax by miles driven instead.
So how exactly is the customers consent/approval meaningful, if the data is collected anyway, and any yahoo at NSA/DHS can demand it on a massive scale without any warrent whatsoever?
So...next time my Ford is stolen, I just need to call Ford and they can tell me where it is right ?
They can probably patch the police into the in-car mic and listen to the thieves, perhaps even talk to to them.
"This is the Tampa police department. You are being tracked , pull over and turn off the car..." ... then remote lock the doors till the cruiser gets there..
interesting...
Key thing is "Implied".
But then again how is this any different then the "Black Box" in the car?
Don't get me wrong, I disagree with the Black Box and the GPS tracking. I think that we, as a nation, haven't screamed loud enough at our leadership to tell them to get out of our lives.
Hell, as a nation, we've elected these bastards who have basically told us to Bend over and Take it.
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
Of course they don't track the customer. What they track is the vehicle,,, and the vehicle has no rights.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
I wonder if they are going to put methane detectors in the seat cushions? ...and smoke detectors???
Dear Microlimp: I give you 2 valid product keys for win7 and you reject both of them. Piss off you wankers!!!
another way of saying "jack up parking fees".
How does having my gps data give Ford the ability to "know everyone who breaks the law" and "know when you're doing it"?
That's a rather impressive feat. How exactly does this magical gps data tell them person A ran a red light, person B robbed a convenience store, person C committed murder, ...?
It can't be that hard to disable or remove the GPS. I'm sure anyone who can assemble their own computer (which is probably everybody at Slashdot) could do it in an hour. My assumption is that it won't be illegal to tamper with either.
All your bases are belong to us.
...but Ford Sync is actually running Windows Embedded Automotive for an OS. Like some malware/zero day exploits with that while you're doing 70 mph (112 kph)???
completely failing to mention the compromise in freedom.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
I don't care because I don't break the law. In fine this could lead to safer roads if they share these infos with law enforcement.
Ma'am either your indicator light is busted or you did not use it, either way your car computer would know in case you had hit me.
You'll always get a better picture of your customers' habits with transparent metrics.
Investors would always get a better picture of companies health with transparent accounting. Think there's a snowball's chance of that?
One reason car companies collect this data is to steal the car back from you (repossess it) in the event of non-payment. The GPS tracking is often turned over to the Repo operators when they need to go steal your car back.
The solution will never happen. There is only two ways it'll happen:
1. Boards stop that horseshit but they won't. They'll take care of their buddies and BS the shareholders by saying "We NEED to offer those compensation packages in order to get the best talent." And we all know that CEO talent has very little to do with business performance - although, the runup of Yahoo! because Meyer being hired - and no improvement in company fundamentals - showed the stupidity of Wall Street.
2. Regulation - which won't happen because the majority of Americans are under the delusion that all they have to do is work harder and they can one day be in that position and therefore; any laws in that regard will hurt them down the line. And also, the propaganda about "Socialism" and what have you from the business/money'ed class' mouthpieces in the media.
How can he say that ``we know when you break the law (I'm assuming he means the speed limit) and when you're doing it'' and ``We don't track you without your concent''?
Mr. CEO... one of statements makes you an effin' liar.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
With the slow erosion of the written in stone personal freedoms associated with the Bill of Rights, it is not astonishing an implied freedom is being phased out.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Suppose a stadium is holding an event; knowing how much traffic is making its way toward the arena might help the venue change its parking lot resources accordingly, he said.
... or you could just count the number of tickets sold.
If you have a small child, the most decent thing you can do is sit them down, look them in the eye and tell them, "Your life is going to suck".
I'm glad I'm old enough to remember freedom. When I'm very old, I expect to tell stories of the early days of the internet when we still believed technology was going to be good for society.
You are welcome on my lawn.
NSA, FBI, CIA, other TLAs or the Police, any could show up and DEMAND the information. To protect yourself and us put up a sign that No-one has come looking for the data either individually or en-mass. You have NOT received NSL letters and will remove the sign when they do arrive.
Considering the statements 'We know everyone who breaks the law, we know when you're doing it" vs "We do not track our customers in their cars without their approval or consent."....
I cannot for the life of me reconcile how both of these statements can be true except in pathological cases that would not affect most people. If they know when a person is breaking the law, then since people who break the law are generally not trying to be caught in the act, then it cannot be the case that they do not track people without their consent. If they really don't track people without their consent, then the only people that they would know about when they break the law are people whose approach to the law would, I imagine, fall several standard deviations away from what is considered typical for people who deliberately break the law.
Since it is possible for the second statement to be false without automatically making the first statement true (although such a situation would enable the first statement to be true), I believe logic demands that both statements be taken as vacuous.... that is, that Ford may or may not track customers without their consent, but if they were to, the information they would receive from such tracking would not necessarily enable them to be able to really know who is breaking the law or where.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
HEY BUDDY , can you kindly get your ass out of the PASSING LANE?!!!
Do you think I've been flicking my high beams out you the last two miles for my own amusement?!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
That comment is more stupid than evil. It's a real pointy-haired-boss sort of thing to say. In reality, all he can really say is, "We know when you're speeding... sometimes." GPS doesn't tell them the speed limit of every road you're driving on; or whether or not there is a stop sign or stop light at an intersection; or the precise moment the light changes; or the location of every vehicle around you and whether you are following too closely for conditions; or if you're in a school zone; or if there is construction going on in that area; or if you just robbed a liquor store; or even if you are the one actually driving the car. Let's not make too much of this.
Proverbs 21:19
Farley later realized how his statement sounded, and added, "We do not track our customers in their cars without their approval or consent."
That's rich. And shareholders should be mega pissed after what has happened to other companies involved in (directly or not) with the NSA enhanced packet interigations.
I assume they are bidet controls.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
"We do not track our customers in their cars without their approval or consent."
Right... And I have a nice bridge to sell you in the Everglades swamps...
'We know everyone who breaks the law, we know when you're doing it. We have GPS in your car, so we know what you're doing. By the way, we don't supply that data to anyone...'
Wonderful. Now all the police have to do is ask Ford to hand over their records or face charges of obstruction of justice. After all, they are concealing evidence of crimes which is in itself a crime.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
I had the same plan, keep my car until it was dead. Problem was, the death of my car happened a lot sooner than I envisioned.
Someone on the freeway was inattentive and slammed into me during a traffic slowdown. Result? Car totalled (and very minor damage to me, which I guess is kudos for Toyota.)
I don't think my new "used" car has a GPS in it, but one might've got snuck in without me knowing.
Good luck keeping your car "forever".
--PeterM
Automakers need to supply an option to turn off connectivity. I think a switch on the dashboard would be adequate. Unless there is a PCI-ish compliance law for my personal data collected by Ford or any other manufacturer, and since I am never sure exactly what or how they are collecting it, what they are collecting is a violation of my personal privacy. Maybe we should be asking our congress for mandates to that affect. Except the government will be the first to subpoena the manufacturers to grab the data. Maybe the ball peen hammer idea is the best.
" Now the police can look at your driving habits during a traffic stop.
Are you certain they have a right to investigate the data without due cause or a warrant? Would it even be relevant to the case at hand?
Commerce should use the standard used by scientific experimentation: not just consent, but informed consent.
The Wikipedia article states the difference between the kind of "consent" used by unregulated businesses and the type used by health care and scientific researchers nicely:
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
You must mean 'Rule #37: IF DATA IS COLLECTED, THE NSA HAS A COPY OF IT'.
Rules #35 and #36 are already taken.
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
if your'e an America and can't be bothered to say enough is enough to your own gov systematic spying on you, you aint gonna give a shit if Ferd does it, are you.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
Note to self, never buy a Ford, or any vehicle with built-in GPS.
You know that both Insurance and "Law" "enforcement" are now going to be going NSA on Ford to look at private human behaviors.
Will there be a "I drove to McDonalds" tax for fat people on Obamacare?
I assume that if it is ever stored, I can be retrievable by the government through court order or NSA subpoena.
I assume the next stop would be to be used by private citizens in traffic accident lawsuits.
So by the year 2024 all vehicals will have there whereabout posted to the governments central traffic monitoring hub. If you disable this system, you will be a terrorist.
Or in /.'s case, Harry Tuttle.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
the Good version of this is you could Dial 911 after a crash and wake up already in the hospital
Operator: 911 whats your emergency??
Are you there??
Dispatch I have a non-responsive caller 3 meters north of Mile Marker 912 can you send a car to check??
the bad Version is there is a GPS chip in the phone for this purpose
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
modern cars with all their newfangled electronics should get off my lawn...
That's why The Hero always drives a '67 Mustang.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Just because I happen to be at a certain location? How do they figure that? We do not (yet) live in a totalitarian state where we need permission to travel.
Have gnu, will travel.
Suppose you wanted to cut some carrots, but they were really thick. Wouldn't it be nice to keep a raised guillotine in your house for such occasions?
Somewhere in this car is a chip that is wirelessly communicating with Ford.
Where is it?
Simply insulating the radio transmitter should silence it. Simple task.
And something you might be happy to pay your mechanic to do... heck... some metallic paint might work. Spray the little bastard.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Why do I need to rely on signs in this day and age? Why doesn't my car display the speed limit wherever I am? Its frustrating to be in an industrial area and find that you are speeding because the limit dropped to 25 for no reason.
...is where to place the drill bit and how deep to go.
Just one more reason I will never, ever own another Ford. Once bitten, twice shy.
Circle the wagons and fire inward. Entropy increases without bounds.
Those bubbles you see around you are not soap bubbles.
Is that they adjust speed limits accordingly. After all if Ford sees the 90th quintile regularly exceeding posted speed limits maybe they could put some pressure on the NHTSA and the Federal Government to stop dicking with speed limits on highways.
Many of our speed limits are set artificially low. The reasons for this are many, including of course ticket revenue and ostensibly 'safety'.
But cars today are a very far cry from cars that were around back then. Think for a moment, cars now have ABS, passive restraint, traction control, and many have semi-autonomous control of breaking and even steering. So by that argument speed limits should go up.
Add to this - I remember when speed limits in urban areas in the late 1960's and early 1970's were 70MPH.
Puzzle me this though - why is it in Germany where much of the Autobahn has now maximum speed limit the highway deaths are lower than in the United States where we have these artificially low speed limits? Could it be it costs around $2,000 in Germany to get a license?
Another american car maker off my list of ever buying again.
There is no legitimate reason to have a GPS in my car unless I specifically paid for it as a part of the navigation package or the "on Star" package. Putting one there without my consent is criminal behavoir.
Ford's CEO is a dirty criminal.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
A few years ago when GM sold auto insurance, you could get a discount for agreeing to let them track your driving habits with OnStar (maybe such a program still exists, IDK). You probably could have sold that new product to a few drivers. I suspect the Ford exec was trying to show how Ford had similar capabilities to GM when his inserted his wingtip into his mouth.
GPS will be used to determine if you're speeding in an area you're not supposed to be. There will be a thermal printer attached to the dash. Should you break the law, the printer will cite you a ticket right then and there. If you're lucky, it will automatically schedule your arraignment for you. How nice!
And no, the drive-by-wire throttle-body (governor) will not automatically slow you down. It's "unsafe" and the cities want a cash cow.
Demolition Man. I thought that shit was fiction. Even the Chinese live underground these days...
Life is not for the lazy.
Good question. I assume it's lack of knowledge. I have yet to see any references to where the "black boxes" are in any car. Manufacturers, to please dealers, release very little data on functioning or repairs, so info about black boxes and tracking devices probably gets suppressed by default along with the rest.
Anyone? Bueller?
We're not gonna tell your Sunday prayer group that your car is parked in the porno shop parking lot every Friday evening. But we just wanted to let you know that we could.
Have a nice day.
It's stories like these that make me glad that I don't own a car. Well, yet another reason beyond the cost and maintenance hassles.
No really, this is some scary big brother shit.
No, I also don't mean to be alarmist, or tin foil, but when its said by the CEO of a company about his products, you'd have to be really fucking dense not to think its correct, and really play pretty big mind games to say you didn't hear it.
What else is going on that we don't know, and we'll later only hear about durring a slip up?
What vehicles have the GPS, just ones with it in the infotainment system, or does this go back further?
How do I take the GPS out of my new ford?
I know money grubbing politicians read things like this. It's just a matter of time before they pass a law to pass that information to law enforcement. We have to make sure we're on our game to force them to raise speed limits to what they should be in the first place.
I cannot understand the angst here. If you utilize any of the modern technology, you have no privacy. The real issue is that we cannot elect government officials who will create and act upon law and regulations to protect our privacy. Instead, we blame 'corporations' or 'corporate greed'. If you want to have a civil society, focus on yourself and the people you elect to run the government. Obama and his clown administration is NOT it.
Worse yet, until around the beginning of 2012 (and likely only because of enough media outrage, including Glenn Beck complaining about it for years), OnStar was still collecting data from cars that were equipped with the system but weren't subscribers!
I'm as much a believer as anyone that government has way too much control and power in our daily lives. But most people's vehicles are owned by the lenders, since they haven't yet fulfilled the terms of their loans. If you actually have a vehicle that's paid for, free and clear? The face you hold a "certificate of title" is really just some paperwork that satisfies the requirements the State has created for receiving permission to operate it on govt. owned "public roads".
The bottom line, though, is the vehicle really is owned by YOU and not the State. The state you reside in would have no more authority to reclaim it from you than it would any other piece of personal property. (And these days, that's not necessarily saying much, thanks to such legal concepts as "eminent domain", acceptance of the idea that police can seize objects as "evidence" and hold it practically indefinitely without actually charging a person with a related crime, etc.) But still, the matter of getting valid license plates to legally *operate* the vehicle on public roads is completely independent of ownership of the vehicle itself.
Agreed.
It's really not an "either / or" situation, where EITHER the public accepts the GPS based data collection by auto-makers, OR they lose any way to benefit from more rapid/reliable emergency response in case of accidents! This is much more of a case where the auto makers desperately want to collect that valuable data and they need some kind of "selling point" to make people accept it. What could be more convincing that promising it might save your life, or the life of a loved one?
In reality though, there are plenty of ways to implement improved emergency response in case of car accidents that have NOTHING to do with sending your driving history to a car maker for collection and long-term storage! Heck, a system could be designed so whenever the airbag is deployed, a transponder begins sending out location data and some type of distress signal. This could be tied in with emergency 911 systems. Effective and delivers the needed information directly to the parties you want it to go to, with NO data leakage to commercial entities the rest of the time.
I think OBDII was a big advancement in vehicle technology, really. I have no problem with the idea of making engine computers intelligent enough so they can pinpoint which component of the whole system has a fault. I'm sure the ability to borrow a code reader from the local auto parts store and fish out the trouble codes has saved many, many people hundreds or even thousands of dollars in repair bills where unnecessary parts were swapped out before something was fixed properly. But sure, any further revisions to that standard should focus solely on improving the level of ability to report these problems -- not on broadcasting data externally to 3rd. parties.
I know more than one car owner who: a) did no harm to anyone, nor anything besides their vehicle and a tree, and b) were very happy to NOT have 911 called when their airbag deployed, and c) were not doing anything illegal, immoral or unethical at the time.
My first (and only) one car accident was very similar, I would have been 100% better off to push the vehicle to a side street and call a tow-truck, but, silly 16 year old me, I called the highway patrol.
Define "breaking the law" speeding? running a stop sign? right on red without a complete stop? cutting a left turn short? turning into the wrong lane? lots of laws broken by,all drivers everytime they drive. I doubt Ford or an employer are aware of most of these.
You'll have privileges to break laws.
Casteism
Farley said "We do not track our customers in their cars without their approval or consent." ... directly after stating that's exactly what they actually do.
Cop 1: "He looked like he was hiding something, yer onner". When we stopped him he kept looking around and acting strangely."
Cop 2: "Yeah, yeah, wot he said."
You: "I did no such thing, your honour."
Judge: Both cops say you did, 2 trusted public officials with no reason to lie against 1 obvious reprobate, probable cause, case dismissed with prejudice.