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Windows 8 Metro: The Good Kind of Market Segmentation?
nk497 writes "A UX designer working at Microsoft has taken to Reddit to explain why Windows 8's Metro screen isn't designed for power users — but is still good news for them. Jacob Miller, posting as 'pwnies,' said Metro is the 'antithesis of a [power user's desktop],' and designed for 'your computer illiterate little sister,' not for content creators or power users. By splitting Windows into Metro and the desktop, Microsoft has created space for casual users as well as power users."
Update: 02/18 18:14 GMT by S : Further explanations from Miller are available now.
And this would explain why they use the Metro interface on Server 2012? So my illiterate little sister can mange servers in the data center?
At least this one admits to working for MS.
I swear, I have seen more shills flood the internet advocating Windows8 than for any other product in history.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Where do I mod this article -1 Flamebait? I'd really like to know.
Ever notice that Cobra Commander sounds an awful lot like Star scream?
The Windows 8 metro ui drove me mad for months, but because it's still Windows I kept searching for a way to kill them off. Of course I installed Classic shell right away, but finding that way: this: http://winaero.com/blog/how-to-remove-all-bundled-modern-apps-from-your-user-account-in-windows-8/ really fixed Windows 8 for me.
The fact that windows does not have this in 2014 is shameful.
Because only a 'power' user would find some of the important gestures to figure out how to use that thing.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Windows 8 is dumbed down in more ways than just this Metro/Desktop schizophrenia.
A lot of power features are not "hidden". They are GONE.
If you down want to show them to the causual user that's ok with me..
But make them optional AND ALLOW TO MAKE THEM DEFAULT for those of us who need to get real work done.
(Sorry about the shouting, I just spend several hours fighting the usability nightmare that is a 2012 server box.)
My experience providing support has been to the contrary. Casual users and less technically inclined users seem to hate metro. I am frequently asked to implement replacements for metro for these folks.
This "UX designer" has completely missed the complaint everyone has lodged against Windows 8 and its interface. Nobody cares that there's a new interface added to the system, or even that it's the default. But power users do care that there's no way to bypass it.
Give us a way to shut it off and restore the original functionality in a control panel somewhere.
And shut your dumbass mouth, Jacob Miller. We didn't miss the point. You did.
If Metro is for the non-power user, then why are so many of its capabilities not easily discoverable? Yes, I really expect grandma to figure out to swipe in from the side. That's just stupid.
Don't insult our intelligence. Even so-called "casual" users have been happy with the desktop for decades now. You can't admit that Metro was designed for "your computer illiterate little sister", and then present an upside to the interface. It sucks... end of story.
sig: sauer
Because Microsoft is making themselves look bad there. Ideally a UI will have good discoverability. That is, things that you want to do often are easy to do, and things that you want to do infrequently are possible to discover, or figure out.
A good example of this are hot keys. Most apps have them, but you don't need them to use the app. They are easy to figure out because they are listed next to every menu item, so if you forget how to past, you can look at 'paste' from the menu and see it's cntrl-V.
The joke here is that Win8 is not discoverable, the gestures are rather hidden. Furthermore creating two different UIs for the same computer is pretty near the opposite of good design. You will inevitably run into the same types of problems you have with 'mobile' websites, which are not good for anybody.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Because neither Slashdot, nor Neowin, nor PC Pro can apparently do a little goddamn legwork, here's a link to the comment thread on Reddit.
The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
...Microsoft has created space for casual users as well as power users....
Not really. What Microsoft did was chase away a significant number of people who were looking for a PC. The sales numbers speak for themselves. If it were only the power users who were avoiding Windows 8, then the sales numbers would not be as bad as they are.
No need to denigrate MS anymore. Now that Nadella is in charge their next OS will be named "Windows Mavericks"
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
If I had been astroturfing, I wouldn't have been using the term Metro. Nor would I have been stating that Apple has better mobile hardware. Nor would I have used that account - have you seen my post history? http://www.reddit.com/user/pwn...
Asking if Metro was the good kind of market segmentation is sort of like asking if your wife cheating on you is the 'good' kind of having 'time to ourselves'
Metro was a bullshit, Clippy, Chicken McNugget version of the iOS design.
That's *all* it's ever been, and everyone knows this...posting pointless articles about the 'U/X' of Metro is silly. Metro and all Windows products tack on 'U/X' as an afterthought.
To try to understand good design principles from looking at M$ design process is like learning how to cook by watching a trucker take a shit.
Thank you Dave Raggett
Whose little sister is computer illiterate in 2014? Both of my little sisters are established professionals who have been using computers since they were children, and anyone younger than them has been using computers since birth. This mythical audience doesn't exist except in the minds of "UX Designers".
Basically this type of segregation would only work if Metro was a CHOICE instead of forced down all users' throats. So, instead of having two happily coexisting ways to utilize the same operating system, Microsoft is forcibly alienating their traditional userbase for a hope and a prayer that they might gain new users who don't find Metro entirely repulsive. Also, Metro with a mouse is just a UX disaster; it's only tolerable on a touchscreen, and this is a tiny fraction desktop and legacy hardware.
The rest of his analysis is fine, but that crucial point invalidates his basis. I actually agree in principle, but by forcing me to (potentially) use Metro Microsoft has permanently lost me as a future customer.
Have gnu, will travel.
Metro lacks the user friendliness of a pet rock.
Learning curve is high enough that an old windows user like me (since the early 90s) can't figure out how to open an application or find where anything I have installed is.
No menus, no help, no interface, no organization, no context, no structure and too many ads.
I can't help anyone running windows 8. I can't find applications, documents, programs or interface. I'm not sure what that great scrolling walls of ads is, but it doesn't seem to relate to anything resembling functionality - it's easier to find an installed app using "google play" than it is to use that.
And forget "power user". I DO know how to open a command shell, and replace the scrolling wall of stupidity with a terrible second-rate wannabe menu that injects ads everywhere. (which is to say, pretty much every start menu replacement)
I don't actually -need- the start menu - the folders of windows 3 were actually more or less ok.
If I were running a tablet with this stupidity, it'd probably be tossed across the room.
It managed to build an interface almost as terrible and in your face as Ubuntu's "Unity". Except that it takes 50-90% of your CPU to run windows 8 and Unity only prevents you from using it.
I'm not sure who designed either system, but they should be kicked out of user design and forced to go back to school, perhaps in something useful like sales.
The quote is out of context, and was part of a larger list of users. On its own it does seem negative - here's my full quote: Metro is a content consumption space. It is designed for casual users who only want to check facebook, view some photos, and maybe post a selfie to instagram. It's designed for your computer illiterate little sister, for grandpas who don't know how to use that computer dofangle thingy, and for mom who just wants to look up apple pie recipes. It's simple, clear, and does one thing (and only one thing) relatively easily.
... and get off my lawn.
Jacob Miller, posting as 'pwnies,'
First name: OMG
Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
The problem isn't that The UI Formerly Named Metro is good for non-power users, it's that Metro is bad for power users and you can't avoid using it.
(Likewise, at least so far you can still say "no" to Slashdot Beta.)
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
My grampa was not retarded, so he wouldn't have liked it.
"AND I'M WORKING HARD, to keep you little sister ILLITERATE!"
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
I don't know what would be enough **for you** but TFA is shameful admission
Shameful if you are in the design part of the tech industry.
This is M$ fully admitting that Metro (and many of their design decisions) was nothing more than **DUMBING DOWN THE INTERFACE**
I know coders don't get this as easily b/c you dont think of the user...but look...
Metro's awfulness is an expression of what M$ thinks of its users. Its 'easy' version of the OS is so mind-numbingly stilted that in attempting to be usable by the stupidest person on earth, it has instead been rendered useless to *everyone*
This article is proof that Microsoft really does act as if it **hates its users**
Thank you Dave Raggett
If you look at the source that 'Bacon Bits' posted -- what I see if a pretty dubious, random post on Reddit, that PC Pro picked up. Nowhere do I see any actual evidence that anyone, other than a troll, or some kid just posted. This is about as useful an article as something 'my friend heard from his cousin's mom's next door neighbor's mother-in-law..."
'The unexamined life is not worth living' - Socrates
Now that everyone has used computers for more than a decade, let's add a beginner interface that is completely different!
"Before Windows 8 and Metro came along, power users and casual users - the content creators and the content consumers - had to share the same space," he added. "It was like a rented tuxedo coat - something that somewhat fit a wide variety of people."
There's a difference between a physical thing that cannot be changed easily like hardware and software which is more malleable. Also they don't have to share the same space. See Android vs Linux. See iOS vs OS X.
If that's the case, why not allow power users to turn off the settings they find annoying? "We needed casual users to learn this interface," Miller explained. "If there was an option to make all the new go away, many users would do it. It's the same reason why Facebook doesn't have an option to go back to old designs of Facebook. People hate change.
Casual users would not turn off the interface. Casual users would save files to the desktop because they can't be bothered to put them in folders. And another problem is that this new interface still has enough elements of the old interface to confuse both power users and casual users. It is bi-polar at times and more of a sign it really wasn't ready when launched. If history is correct it won't be before the 3rd version that MS gets Metro working acceptably.
He pointed out that power users shouldn't normally have to use the Metro Start screen once they've pinned their ten most used apps to the taskbar. Microsoft's research shows that this covers more than 90% of interactions, and the rest of the time it makes sense to search textually for that little-used app, rather than hunting around with your mouse. "That's why we default to keyboard navigation (search to launch/find) in this situation," he explained.
Most power users I know use more than 10 applications. Also searching pages and pages of unsorted tiles is much faster than using text. Oh, the solution is to manually organize the tiles for each and every program that the user may or may not use right away. Yes, that's much easier.
Indeed, Windows 8 isn't designed to be used with a mouse, he wrote. "It's designed for keyboard (power users) and touch (casual users) primarily," he said. "Time trials showed that these were far faster methods than mouse-based navigation on the old start menu, so we optimised for that."
So that makes sense for MS to put it on desktops where the primary input is keyboard and mouse? Also the interface isn't good for casual users either. UI experts like Jacob Nielsen has listed all the issues with Metro for power and novice users.
"In the short term you'll see less resources devoted to it until we get Metro figured out, but once that happens the desktop is very much a first world citizen," Miller wrote. "It will be equal with Metro. The desktop is not going away, we can't develop Windows in Metro."
So everyone is a guinea pig until version 3 then?
While admitting that Microsoft hasn't done a good job of marketing the changes and explaining how to use the new interface, Miller revealed that he's currently working on new first-run experience tutorials to address that.
While marketing is often an area of fail for MS, the problem is that MS would like to ignore that wasn't the only problem. The interface suffers from many other defects. Scores of beta testers including many loyal Windows fans told MS about issues before Win 8 was launched. Also if you have to teach someone how to use an interface, then the interface isn't intuitive. Not all interfaces should be but an interface for casual and novice users should be.
And he suggested that Windows 9 will help clean up many of the issues with Windows 8, admitting that Microsoft appears to be working on a "tick/tock" development cycle. "Windows 7
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Doesn't matter if you're right if you can't sell it.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
How much grief are you getting? I see your still on Lync which is encouraging.
I run a computer shop and a lot of people stop in with questions about Windows 8. The #1 question is how the hell to do anything in the metro interface. Even I had to look up on Youtube how to simply close an app because there's no red X, escape does nothing, and alt-F4 works intermittently. I've had people repeatedly run out of operating memory due to too many apps open because they don't know to click and drag the title bar and sort of throw it to close it. It's the least "simple user" friendly interface ever made. Everything is hidden or unlabeled. It's absolutely the opposite of what he's saying.
Who would have thought that this thread would turn into a flame war?
Hmm...
I recently special-ordered a desktop computer for my very-computer-illiterate mother (a retired musician) and somewhat-computer-illiterate father (a retired lawyer) to use, to avoid confusing them with Metro. Meanwhile my niece (I'm too old for my "little sister" to be relevant) has no trouble at all dealing with the traditional Windows Explorer desktop (though she prefers her Mac, which is mostly the same) because she grew up with it. In fact, it's the only interface she's ever known, which makes replacing it a bit problematic. It's way too late in the game to start worrying about a dumbed-down UI for computer illiterates.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Having two different interfaces might be a good thing if the user could actually CHOOSE between them.
No, Metro would be pointless if the user could actually CHOOSE it, because no-one would choose it on a desktop PC.
But that is completely backwards! Metro requires the memorization of active corners, various slides with varying amount of fingers and all manner of arcane "commands", making it a power user shell to the OS. It does away with - and one might even say punishes - the intuitive, newbie approaches and rewards the power user who loves using the OS for the sake of using the OS and not just for starting applications.
The very people who generally loathe Metro are the ones it is designed for, and the ones it is claimed to be used for will find it alien and difficult to grasp, because it is not designed for them.
That a Microsoft UX designer fails to see this is symptomatic of the complete lack of focus at the Microsoft of the "business instinct genius" "the iPhone will never succeed" Ballmer. Even Microsoft do not know what their user interfaces reward and punish. And that is why Windows 8 is such a total failure.
lol Reddit user, UX designer at MS, heck looking at your Reddit post history: you are really going for the biggest loser trophy this year.
Where do you get the idea that having a searchable list of all applications, not segmented into categories, is a good idea for the novice user? You've created an interface that outright requires previous computer knowledge and said it's for the people who aren't used to computers. Novice Ned isn't going to know what application to search for to do whatever task he's trying to accomplish, he's going to need a categorized list that lets him narrow down his options. What you've done with Unity and Metro is generate a list of executables and claimed it's user friendly. Idiots.
In other words, he concluded, Microsoft is "making two meals now instead of one. That way we can provide steak for the grown men, and skim milk for the babies."
If that's the case, why not allow power users to turn off the settings they find annoying? "We needed casual users to learn this interface,"
What a load of crap. If it truly was setup with Metro for casual, desktop for power users, then you would be able to select one or the other. If by default, Metro was used, and they made it some normal "difficult" to get to setting that had to be edited under the system management areas, your "casual" users would have no clue how to make that change and would thus, be using Metro. We also wouldn't have Metro on the SERVER editions being used PRIMARILY BY CORPORATE PROFESSIONAL IT DEPARTMENTS!
This entire interview is just PR hogwash trying to put a good light on the horrible mistakes of Metro for desktop user interface. It works perfectly fine for a tablet, or phone, but it utterly useless and time wasting on a desktop or laptop that has a keyboard and mouse.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
Windows 8 isn't for me. Ok. Got that. So gimme Win7. Huh? Why can't I get it?
So you make a system that's not for me, but you don't wanna sell me the system that was made for me?
Maybe you should have asked that consultant who told you that this was a good idea what that "I (heart) RMS" sticker on his laptop meant. Clue: He didn't want to express his love to your Rights Management Services.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
To really understand metro, you have to watch the development videos at microsoft virtual academy website.
Somehow their UI designers came up with this ridicilous notion that your apps don't need any "distract" menus or system icons and it should only display content. Content is the king they say, none of those resizing bars or window icons or anything. This is the main reason why metro apps look like that.
It's like someone designed a car and said.. "you don't doors once you're in the car all you need is the road". To that I say "getting in and out a car shouldn't be an un-intuitive mess dumbass"
did you forget to take your meds?
One of my biggest issues with Windows 8 and Metro is that even if you try to do everything without Metro you still get randomly forced back into it against your will. Want to install something like Freecell? Forced back into the Metro app store. Want to play music? By default you are forced back into the Xbox music player. Want to view photos? Forced into the Metro photo viewer (I don't even know the name of it). All of these defaults have to be changed in order to avoid Metro. I disabled the app store completely in the registry and it still randomly tries to use it only to then realize I disabled it.
I don't want any part of Metro. I don't want to use it. Allow me to get rid of that horrible abomination and use an interface that makes at least a marginal level of sense.
Take the proverbial computer illiterate: My dad. He's the anti-geek. The non-techie. The proverbial bureaucratic pencil pusher who started using computers when he noticed that "that electronic fad" won't go away.
He FINALLY got around to using Windows. Kinda-sorta. More or less. Confronted with Win8 he threw a fit. He finally got that crap down and now they change everything around.
He eventually bought an Apple laptop. Seems he can more easily deal with that change than with the transition from XP to 8.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
They tried this "idiots interface" before, what makes them think Metro will end up faring better than that failed attempt? Hi Bob!
Also, so you train an entire GENERATION of people how to use the start menu and then you take it away to make the system EASIER to use.
But suggesting that Win 8 Metro is "designed to be the anti-thesis [of power user desktop]" seems like big time BS. All you need to do is look at the lock/login screen: Only a power user would have the inclination to start taping and pushing and dragging things around trying to figure out how to activate the login process. A less experience user would just click around aimlessly looking for a button missed or can't see wondering what the next step is.
The best interfaces seem to have simple expressions with simple feedback that extend into powerful combination. Win 8 Metro fails at this pretty badly because so many things are never explained or demonstrated or even suggested let alone expressed cleanly or completely. What does putting the pointer in the corner do? Why does click-drag direction-release count as a swipe only in the shell? Expecting a new or neophyte user to figure this out with the intuitive help of Windows 8 is kind of fanciful.
He eventually bought an Apple laptop. Seems he can more easily deal with that change than with the transition from XP to 8.
He's not the only one. I know a number of people who've moved from Windows to Mac, because the Mac is now more like Windows than Windows is.
I am so sick of hearing this and it is complete BS. If people hated change we would all be living like the Amish. Please hate meaningless change. The problem is that type A personalities rise to management level positions. They are convinced they are smarter than everyone else and know what is best for us all. In most cases they have never been in the trenches doing meaningful work. They are just great sales people that can look you in the eye and make you buy something. They see something new and shiny and believe it is the solution to a problem that probably doesn't exist and if it does they don't truly understand it.
I have been in endless HR meetings and personality evaluations with top managers, consultants, and coaches and they are all of this same personality type. They lack the ability to listen and hate details. It is always a big circle jerk. If you ever challenge one of their glorious changes as not a good idea then you are part of the problem, one of those annoying IT people that cannot accept change. They would love to replace you with an inexperienced kid who is on board with all the new stuff since he is clueless to anything else. I'm too old for this shit.
You know how if you have to explain a joke, it isn't funny? Well, if you have to explain a decision you made like this, there's a solid chance it wasn't the right one. Especially when it comes to matters of personal taste, preferences, perception, etc. "No, see, you should like this, because..."
"De gustibus non est disputandum."
(I'm not using Latin to make me look smarter, but to illustrate that this idea has been around for a long damn time.)
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
EXACTLY - I have been an MS user (sometimes reluctantly, sometimes enthusiastically) since windows 3.0 running in real mode on a 286. I have at least tried every O/S since then. I have been a windows developer since windows 3.1. NEVER before windows 8 did I have to search Google (when Bing proved completely useless) to learn how to close an app, or do much of anything really. This is by a very WIDE margin the most unfriendly, un-intuitive O/S I have ever seen. As an experiment, since MS claims this is aimed at "my mother" I installed it on a laptop for my wife - a MAC user who can do basic things on a PC but prefers the MAC. She hates it. She can't do anything without help, even after switching to 8.1, and adding classic shell, and populating her desktop she hates it since it keeps throwing her into these crazy metro apps that she cant close and can't find a way to get out of. MS needs to abandon this horrid abortion and go back to the windows 7 desktop, if they want to keep metro on the phone - fine, even on a tablet most of my coworkers live in the desktop, this either needs a LOT of help form some poached Apple UI people, or it needs to be gone. MS has FAILED utterly to address either the casual user or the pro - this thing needs to die.
I don't know what data centers you spend time in, but 99% of the Windows servers I encounter in data centers (maybe more) are explicitly NOT headless. And with the MS certification programs for admins emphasizing the "GUI way" of doing things way too much, there's no reason to expect that to change with Windows Server 2012 adoption.
In fact, if you accept Azure as the best reference profile for Windows servers, I'm not even sure there's a way to get a headless Windows server on Azure (try searching "site:windowsazure.com headless" if you don't believe me).
"Ahh! I see you're in that indeterminate Schrodinger state where - oh, uh
But this does not explain why neither casual nor power users are interested in Windows 8 at all. Feels like they failed twice.
This is not how the new UX was sold. In fact, it's nearly a 180 about face. Second, if power users aren't supposed to use the Metro interface, why are we forced to interact with it on everything from Windows 8 Pro to Windows Server?
If this was the case wouldn't it then make sence to allow on installation to leave metro out?
One thing that nobody seems to talk about is what is Metro doing behind the scenes? I really haven't seen any articles and we (I believe) incorrectly believe that the Metro "apps" aren't running unless they're explicitly executed... Two big concerns for me...
1) How is my machine being slowed down (CPU cycles, disk I/O, etc.) and how much bandwidth is being wasted (especially if I don't get unlimited data) by Metro apps that are running "in the background"? This is really important at the server level--why do I need any apps running on a server--especially if it's running in a VM???
2) What information is being sent out the door about my usage to Microsoft and other entities (spyware), especially if those apps came preloaded with Windows 8.x / Server 2012 (base/R2)??? Again, servers are especially of concern--why should Microsoft or anyone else know how I'm using my server?
Numerous articles have said that Windows 8.x runs better/faster than Windows 7 on all kinds of hardware (even using less memory), but I can't see how this is possible given the concerns above...
Windows 3.1x calc: 3.11 - 3.10 = 0.00
What title bar? I haven't seen any clue that the top of the app is something special that you can grab onto... Just another example backing up your point about it being hidden. It's not even in Microsoft's own tutorial for using windows 8.
"Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
So, the argument is that there's no clean way to accommodate casual user and power user workflows on the same desktop? Wait, tell that to my cairo dock and GNOME Do running on the XFCE desktop that my wife also uses (and believe me, if ever there was a wider chasm between power and casual user within one marriage, it would have likely triggered the implosion of the universe).
... namely, to claw their way into a 30% cut on apps. Mark these words - very soon, MS will introduce a way for desktop, non-Metro apps to be distributed via the app store, downloaded from a Metro interface. I wouldn't even be surprised if they offer a way to configure it as "mandatory", the only way to install desktop apps (for the protection of users, natch). Then the underlying purpose for the otherwise-ridiculous inclusion of Metro on Server 2012 will become clear.
I think the reality this totally-free-to-say-what-he-wants MS employee is not mentioning is that MS has company-strategic user-hostile motives for Metro
"Ahh! I see you're in that indeterminate Schrodinger state where - oh, uh
And if he'd said illiterate little brother it wouldn't have been? Why?
He could have easily left gender out of it but chose not to. The discussion had nothing whatsoever to do with gender so why bring it into the mix? Furthermore are you aware of the relative proportions of males versus females in IT? Hell I've been guilty myself of using my mom as an example of computer illiteracy when my dad is probably even worse with computers than she is. If gender has nothing to do with the story then don't bring it up.
Do you think boys are naturally more stupid than girls or are you just angling for some right-on brownie points? Which it looks like you didn't get btw.
Right. That is why I pointed out a comment which needlessly brought gender into a discussion that had nothing to do with gender. I'm just desperate for the attaboys from the anonymous slashdot masses.
I'm sorry and I'm just mentioning how I reacted to this quote, but for me writing "computer illiterate little sister" rather than "computer illiterate friend" (or sibling, etc.) and bringing age into the quote lessens the argument for me.
I don't see things in black and white; I see the gray. Heck, I actually see in color, which makes things more difficult
.. is the furtherest thing from a power user out there. She'd like her old XP interface back.
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
Metro apps are useless for me, so I don't use them. That leaves the start menu, and IMO if you're spending that much quality time with the start menu in Win95/98/Me/Nt4-6.1 you're doing it very very wrong. I can find and launch applications at least as fast if not faster from the Win 8.1 welcome screen as I ever could from the Start menu, and since I pin things I use to the taskbar (just like I did in Vista and 7) this non-issue becomes even less an issue. The only actual gripe I have is the occasional unwanted trip into a metro app when I open a new document type and haven't fixed the mime association yet.
"your computer illiterate little sister".....
What makes you think that little sisters are more computer illiterate than little brothers? Sexist much, Jacob Miller?
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
pretty much.
except they dined and wined a shitload of developers to get them onboard.
and well, just gave some straight up cash.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
PC Users need less user friendly happy touchy feely stuff, and more serious workstation stuff. Home users will be using tablets and their phone for the basic personal computing.
So what should someone use once his needs grow from "basic personal computing" to a workstation? Someone who owns a PC could repurpose it by installing workstation applications and possibly adding RAM. But now that tablets are starting to take over the home market, someone whose needs grow past what an iPad can do has to spend hundreds on a whole new computer. That's sort of hard for, say, a high school student taking a programming class. It's an issue of upward mobility.
Who would have thought that this thread would turn into a flame war?
Hmm...
What flames? All I'm reading are valid complaints from real-world experience and a delusional person trying to defend horrible UI decisions for a corporation that we all know doesn't care one way or the other.
Powershell is a BSD pipelined interface with all the lovely syntax of Visual Basic oriented around objects in layers all the way down.
It is like an onion, you keep peeling back the layers, and each one makes you want to cry more.
Use the best tool for the job. My personal setup is Windows for desktops (I think windows handles multiple monitors better than osx does), OSX for laptops (Apple's hardware is just so much better for portables), and linux for servers. I'm currently typing this on my Macbook Air. Definitely agree with you about dev tools on windows though. If you aren't bought into the .net stack, it's a bitch. For any web dev I'd recommend OSX or Linux. I'm a huge vim guy, so using windows and just ssh'ing into my linux boxes works great for me. (here).
He must have multiple personality disorder. That comment makes so much sense ... and yet his actual Reddit post is so absent of logic ...
"Ahh! I see you're in that indeterminate Schrodinger state where - oh, uh
Use of markedly gender-neutral terms, such as "illiterate little sibling", shows a politically correct affectation that might distract the reader from the point even more than the perceived sexism.
Ahh so it's not just little sisters being computer illiterate, but also for your mother who stays in the kitchen cooking... The full quote is SO much better.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
Remember: this is the company that gave us "start > shut down"
It's no worse than video game consoles, where the player presses the Start button on the controller to pause the game and show Continue / Exit menu. Nintendo's Super Mario All-Stars preceded Microsoft's Windows 95.
This works for both the power user and the casual user. Sit down to the Windows 8 computer. Make sure you have a Windows 7/Mac OS/Linux computer next to you. Now the moment you get confused about the Windows 8 screen, go to your other computer and click Google. Then type how to ....
That is how I do it for Win 8 and Server 2012, and I have been using Microsoft since DOS 1.0 days.
I go out of my way to complicate the simple things, so that I can simplify the complicated things.
MS seems intent to ignore the simple fact that people do not want the same UI for devices they use differently. People want a touch interface for touch devices, and a desktop UI for desktop devices. You don't use a hammer to cut a 2x4. This seems so simple that a 4 year old could figure it out. Why, 10+ years later, is MS still trying to cram a "one UI to rule them all" agenda down consumer's throats that have repeatedly rejected it?
Excellent point! This is also why the dasboard of a car and the dashboard of a jet fighter don't look the same...
"I love animals! Some are cute, others are tasty, what's not to like?" - Betsy Schroeder, Jeopardy contestant
I have a license for office, but I barely use it because I can't find most advanced features.
Why?
They destroyed the menu and replaced it with the ribbon. If you don't know the name of the feature you are looking for, then you are SOL (actually you can google a description of the feature you want to find out where it is, but that is ridiculous).
Menu UI is a long standing feature of mouse driven user interfaces, and if you think throwing it away is in any way acceptable, and you are in the business of UI design then you should be fired from your job.
It is worth pointing out that all developers are power users, and will write applications first for themselves unless they are paid to do otherwise. The reason Windows is so popular is the sheer number of applications available for it. Once the "newbie" interface is segregated from the "power user" interface, there will be a lot fewer applications written for the former due to everyone but the big companies leaving for more useful environments. Fewer applications, and the unlikelihood of anybody writing any anytime soon, is what is killing Metro. If you aren't selling to developers first, you will lose - nobody buys Windows to run Windows.
> If I had been astroturfing, I wouldn't have been using the term Metro.
Hm. You know, before the little but steady flood of slashdot discussions about how vista didn't really suck, I'd have given you a 10% probability of being truthful.
But do not misunderstand, I criticize your objectivity, anyway, not your good intentions, which I have no reason to question.
It's like my younger self as recruit in the army, with an assignment involving lots of dishes and no detergent which was solved with heaps of hot water. After me and another recruit cleaned dishes, we left the literally steaming kitchen and went outside saying "AAAH here it's cool". It was 37C - 98F , sunny and damp yet we thought it was cool. Metro is as cool as that.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
The quote is out of context, and was part of a larger list of users. On its own it does seem negative - here's my full quote: Metro is a content consumption space. It is designed for casual users who only want to check facebook, view some photos, and maybe post a selfie to instagram. It's designed for your computer illiterate little sister, for grandpas who don't know how to use that computer dofangle thingy, and for mom who just wants to look up apple pie recipes. It's simple, clear, and does one thing (and only one thing) relatively easily.
Went and got my haircut yesterday. When the stylist found out what I do for a living, she asked me about Windows 8 and Metro. She wanted to know how to get rid of it. After 5 minutes of talking, I think that most peoples little sisters are more computer savvy than she was. If your target audience is her, you've missed the boat. I don't know anyone who likes Metro on their desktop.
Metro might be OK if you don't actually care what your computer does and don't want the machine to accomplish any particular task, just do the computer equivalent of channel surfing. If you just want to poke here and there and experience pleasant little surprises at what comes up, it's OK. As soon as you try to accomplish any specific task you have decided on yourself, it is bad.
My wife is a neither a computerphobic or a techie. She just wants to get "simple" stuff done. She bought Windows 8 with careful consideration, spending time in a Microsoft store having a rep show it to her and saying to me "I know it's different, but I'll just learn it."
And she hates it.
One of the few things she really LIKED in Windows 8 was having the Bing picture of the day on her desktop. And it just quit working in 8.1. And she hasn't been able to figure out why or how to get it back. That's pure Microsoft for you
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
The mouse cursor changing to a grabbing-hand icon isn't a big enough clue for you? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the fact that there's a reason to move the mouse to the top of the screen is itself discoverable, but once you do it's pretty obvious that you can grab it...
Also, not sure what the GP is on about with Alt-F4. I've never had that not work...
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Apple also is in the minimalism trend as well with the MacBook wheel. Since ipods are so popular it only makes sense that the UI is all the same etc.
http://saveie6.com/
Actually, my elderly parents have the hardest time with Metro:
- no UI cues of what's clickable or not, what operations can be done
- no Back button
- very lacking apps
- very lacking live tiles
- very lacking Metro, you get dumped back into the Desktop all the time.
Metro was not designed for *any* user. It was designed to please the MS's drones' managers.
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
Wow, FUD much? You're either trolling or you haven't got the foggiest clue what you're talking about. I'll give you the benefit of a doubt...
Part of the entire point of "Modern" apps is that they *can not* run in the background. Unless they are explicitly designed to enable one of the handful of background execution options in the WinRT API, an app gets suspended when you switch out of it (ALT+Tab, launch a different app, whatever). It uses no CPU and no I/O in this state, and the RAM it's parked on will be reclaimed if a foreground app needs it. Any app that actually *is* executing in the background will show up in all the usual places (left sidebar app switcher, Al+Tab, Task Manager, etc.) and, unlike most such apps, won't be listed as "Suspended" in Task Manager.
Now, with that said, apps can ask the OS to do a few background things on the app's behalf. One of those is update its "Live Tile" on the start screen, which the OS will periodically check for if you have enabled tile updates for that app and pinned it to the Start screen (unpinned apps don't have tiles to update, so it won't check). Another way is push notifications (like on a phone). These need to be explicitly enabled, and can be disabled from the App-specific Settings charm. They also use quite trivial amounts of data and CPU time, but it's non-zero. Finally, an app can ask the OS to download data for it in the background. The app needs to be run to set this up - it won't happen with pre-installed apps, for example - and this background download will only run when the machine is plugged in and idle.
It's worth noting that Server doesn't come with any of these apps installed (just the standard suite of desktop utilities). You'd know that, if you'd ever used Server 2012...
As for data usage, Win8 is actually the first version of Windows to give you control over that. You can limit or disable all background data usage when on a metered connection, tell it to warn you when you approach certain usage thresholds on that connection, and so on. This is actually a huge improvement over Win7 (which still has plenty of auto-running Windows Services that can use data in the background - you don't need "apps" for that, as any vaguely competent computer user would know - and which you have no easy way to control).
As for data usage, that's all stuff you can set up wen installing Windows, or on first boot, or by going back and changing settings later. As it has been, since approximately forever. Yeah, there are a few new options (although "report to MS every time I open an app" is not one of them, what kind of idiot are you to think it would be?) and of course apps may send their own usage data back (just as any piece of software has been able to do since the invention of the Internet) but the OS allows pretty good tuning of what data is sent to MS.
Win8 runs faster than Win7 because a bunch of effort was put into reducing its CPU usage for use on tablets and other low-end hardware. Win8 uses less RAM than Win7 because of the same effort, which also yielded such cool features as "page combining" to reduce usage further still. Win8 also actually runs *less* stuff in the background by default than Win7 does. The reason this is possible "given the concerns above" is because your concerns are bullshit, and if you had bothered to do any actual research, you'd know this.
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Who would have thought that this thread would turn into a flame war?
Hmm...
Flame war? On the contrary, I have never before seen a /. story where the comments are so much in agreement with each other. Even where pwnies himself has pitched in a couple of times he is basically in agreement with everyone else that the Metro interface is dumb and a failure.
This claim would be easier if there hadn't been a general trend of dumbing down all versions of Windows over the years, making basic "advanced" settings like IP addresses harder and harder to get to.
It'd be nice if there was a prompt during setup that asked "Are you an expert user?" and provided a UI that made access to system settings and information much less obfuscated.
I personally don't think the move to PowerShell as a configuration vehicle is necessarily a solution to the "dumbed down" user interface. It may help with scripting, but I'm not sure that foisting a whole new CLI and syntax is really what I'd call a huge step forward in usability.
In some ways the server manager in 2012 tries to bridge the gap between obfuscated and unobfuscated UIs, but it doesn't let you perform many tasks, instead just dumping you, shortcut-style, to the existing UI.
The joke here is that Win8 is not discoverable, the gestures are rather hidden.
No kidding! I am a Mac person who has had to use a new Windows laptop for a project. When I am in Outlook, there seems to be a way that touching the trackpad kicks me into Bing News. (No, there are no news links in the emails.) And once there, there is no obvious way of getting back into Outlook. I have to hit the key to take me back to the desktop (or whatever they call the one with the tiles), and go back into Outlook from there. No wonder Windows 7 users are annoyed.
Q: What does the "B." in Benoit B. Mandelbrot stand for? A: Benoit B. Mandelbrot
This is also why the dasboard of a car and the dashboard of a jet fighter don't look the same...
Insensitive clod. I have gone to huge expense to have my jet fighter modified to have a gear lever and steering wheel. I was so confused before.
So that's why HP and Dell have both started offering PCs with Windows 7: it's because those power user's were demanding it. Not because casual users hate it. I see now.
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
But he said he will make more tutorial videos. Surely something is discoverable if you can learn about it in a tutorial video.
How inappropriate to call this planet Earth, when clearly it is Ocean.
There are now two kinds of people in the world: Casual and Professional, so sayeth the misguided spokesman for Microsoft, who hasn't got a single CLUE about users!
To suggest that I am a "casual" user because I have a smartphone, or tablet, and my home network has two servers, several users, and we transact a lot of business on-line is to miss the entire point: It's the MEDIUM that should dictate the interface, not the PERSON. (See "I am multitudes...").
Sure, I want users on a smartphone, whether they have 50 years' experience, or one weeks', to access a website and satisfy their needs. But, to then demand that those of us who BUILD those systems should be strapped to the same brain-dead interface is the height of arrogance.
I don't want to be constrained by something like the Metro interface on a tablet; I want to have that OPTION! An option that Microsoft deems, in it's dismissive way, I'm not QUALIFIED to have anything else.
It's as if General Motors decided that engines should only be in vehicles that are used in commerce, and all the rest of us need to be restricted to tricycles which we must pedal, no matter the distance.
It is a marketing failure of stupendous proportions, and is evidenced in the pathetic sales figures for everything since Windows XP.
Just one geek's opinion.
I don't see how this analogy works so well. Unlike a computing device running iOS or Windows RT, a shovel isn't artificially restricted through cryptography by the owner of some IP (imaginary property). There is serious difference in cost of materials between a shovel and a backhoe. A better analogy might be that a shovel is to a backhoe as a PC is to a server cluster. One can replace parts of a PC as needs grow, just as one can replace the handle, shaft, and blade of a shovel.
Nah, they're going to double down on the cloud thing. Expect more and more core OS functionality to drift away into the fluffy little cloud, with an optional, but expensive option to "run your own cloud" for those recalcitrant privacy advocates who don't want practically all their information stored "securely" in some huge corporate data center in Montana. Win 8 already has their stupid little Microsoft Account which you can use to "... get apps from the Windows Store, back up all your important data and files using free cloud storage, and keep all your favorite stuff—devices, photos, friends, games, settings, music, and so on—up to date and in sync." So Cloud (implied), Cloud (explicit), Cloud (implied). Don't worry though, just like a real cloud your files and information are just so many water droplets in a swirling mass, so it isn't likely you will be personally targeted! The crackers will just take ALL of it! No worries!
Personally, I can't wait for Cloud printing, where your document goes out to the internet, then back to your printer, unless your internet access is out for some reason, then you're hosed. Rah rah cloud!!
Celebrity worship is a poor substitute for Deity worship and costs more to boot.
At least until some enterprising soul releases a non-media-consumption tablet/OS.
That's what Windows 8.1 for Surface Pro is supposed to be, and that's what "Ubuntu for Android" and other GNU/Linux-in-chroot environments are supposed to be. Use it as a tablet, or dock it to a keyboard as a netbook. Use it as a phone, or dock it to an HDMI display and pair it to a keyboard as a desktop PC. It's just that Microsoft has confused the market with the difference between Surface RT and Surface Pro, and phone makers are failing to adopt Canonical's free software. Perhaps a bigger problem is that because of substantial regulatory entry barriers in the mobile industry, one can't just be just an "enterprising soul" to bring these things to market; one has to be an en-ter-prise.
Since my checkbook and those of almost all people buying software are not designed for my little sister, Metro UI 8 can go stack overflow donkey kong b411s.
Killing Windows 7 on October 31 will not stop the cold hard fact nobody wants Windows 8 or Windows 8.1 - not just unit sales are down but active resistance is off the charts.
Sometimes, you just have to Kill It With Fire. And the Windows 8 Metro is a prime candidate for being Killed With Fire.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I actually had to look up what UX meant. Then I thought that sounded like a fictitious job. Then I remembered we were talking about Microsoft and realized it was probably a real job.
I know plenty of people in IT who are computer illiterate.
Without these UX decisions every major hardware vendor would not be shipping Chromebooks and Android devices, so thanks for that.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
> By splitting Windows into Metro and the desktop, Microsoft has created space for casual users as well as power users."
Yes, and as soon as they actually do that, more power users will embrace it. But as long as they dance around trying to drag power users into metro, the issue will remain.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
This.
/. UPON BETA UPGRADE????????? AND GO AROUND WARNING ALL THEIR NETWORK CONTACTS ETC. TO STAY AWAY FROM SOMETHING RUN BY THOSE WHO DON'T LISTEN TO THEIR USERBASE????????
I deal with ignorant, easily-angry, huffy, unwilling-to-learn boobs whose conception of "the internet" is "my computer is on it's the internet, off it's not!" all day. (People who call angry demanding we don't charge them for internet service because the computer's broke.) Metro isn't user-friendly AT ALL.
AND IT'S NOT JUST BECAUSE THINGS AREN'T DISCOVERABLE (thought that's major).
Windows was an evolution: e.g. in little things the control panel improved year to year, (they broke this in Metro to remove features and things and force people to go through metro). That said, by things not changing too much, even willful-idiots could get by. Metro attempts to force everyone to use Microsoft's new paradigm to force the willful-idiots (who only begrudgingly learned what was already there because they can't understand why the damn thing just can't read their mind--and I'm not really exaggerating that much) to become familiar so MS can dominate different platforms with one interface: trouble with this idea is that MS (as you say) hasn't made an intuitive interface, e.g. the search for the start screen is hidden in Windows 8.0, but not just because of that: it's the fact that even if everything was exposed desktop+tablet=unuseable; you can't mix them for different forms, such that the willful idiots can use Android apps because they don't really have to learn much, just pick-up some muscle memory, while with Microsoft the expectations they had already and so could rely upon are gone--they're as pissed as we are.
Basically people like me are happy to recommend what software they need to restore the look and functions to Windows 7, and which apps they need to restore the crap that MS removed or moved for no other reason than to make the desktop less efficient/convenient/useable to force people into Metro, not to mention to recommend (if I discover they just nee "the internet") leaving Microsoft altogether.
But RMS's predition about them trying to cartel-ize and make that move away from them impossible, as we've seen, is always tenuously close, e.g. Microsoft locked-in all the businesses to ActiveX (most of them are still virtualizing or running XP or Server200x for that reason), sent its execs to take-over and ruin Nokia (legislators on boths sides of the pond 'mysteriously' doing nothing to prosecute intentional and obvious incompetence to ruin and under-value a stock before MS tries to take over), 'influence' and lock-in Netflix with their tech (after making deals promising DRM built-in to the kernel, which also happens to make it less stable and secure by nature of adding code), etc. such that those studios also pressured Netflix. If people weren't idiots they'd choose to read a book rather than pout about being more free but unable to use Netflix, as though TV is essential rather than a drain on most lives.
Problem with this is, they're decisions also affect you and I. Not to mention, the "oo shiny" that also infects the minds of the FOSS community's devs means things are constantly being broken that don't need to be: when that sort of indiscipline results in a community where discipline can't be imposed, oh no...right now I rather put people on Windows 7 than risk Linux breaking things, but I'm sure in a couple years updates from MS will begin to flow that break little things to 'encourage' upgrades.
Until it becomes unacceptable to permit people who believe mere existence requires you somehow contribute money to their personal interests to be in any position of power, which includes not only the business interests but the political elites they back, this sort of thing won't continue. It's interesting to note this: the tacit compromise the parties consistently make is to deny the equality of rights, as they define new ones that take the old ones away, or that they are natural rather instead of constructed, so that they can define new ones and take the old ones away, or speak as though rights are like interests, that they can contradict instead of move around one another.
WHO ELSE IS ABOUT TO ABANDON
Intelligent idiots are we. | Evil men do not understand justice.
Ya, I wish my mother were on a Mac. However there are some problems with that. First is the expense; they don't sell cheap Macs, or even slightly above average cost Macs. And second, if she were on a Mac then I would always be on call to fix all problems, whereas with Windows she's got plenty of neighbors and friends who use it who can give her tips or help out. That's probably the biggest reason that people who aren't comfortable with computers will go with Windows.
But no, Metro would not help her out one bit. She does mail and web browsing and moving files around. Windows 8 has horrible mail and web browser applications, and amazingly comes with zero file browsers or ways to manage files. It doesn't even have any games. Windows 8 does nothing that she wants to do. She's not a social media addict, and even if she were glued to Facebook she could get it from a web browser shortcut just as easily as clicking some dumb box. If she were on metro I'd be getting phone calls about "how do I get out of weather and back to my mail?" and other inscrutable questions.
> You talk like a member of the Chinese Communist Party trying to tell us that "toxic fumes will make us stronger"
This is my new favorite phrase.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
> [...] Then, call it Windows Classic, and run ads with a laptop running the Win8 UX sitting next to a can of New Coke, with the headline: "Yep, we found a way to make even Microsoft Bob look good. We screwed up. Take us back." Include a shot of a second laptop running WC.
As I recall, the Coke company tried to deny responsibility up to the end. I remember the tag line (delivered by Bill Cosby?) being something like "We're not that smart, and we're not that stupid". But that said....
Hell yes. If Microsoft had the guts to put their hubris aside and do this, it would turn things completely around. It would be this century's "Have you driven a Ford lately?"
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
It'd be nice if there was a prompt during setup that asked "Are you an expert user?"
And the prompt can only be confirmed with keyboard shortcuts, and executed from a command line...
I've tested your theory - and you are correct. I've have been trying to help some elderly relatives switch from windows 7 to windows 8. They were comfortable doing things on 7, and 8 has been a complete disaster. The can't remember where to swipe for what. Dealing with photos is a disaster - how do you remove a photo from the screensaver display without removing it entirely? Even MS's insane decision to put the address bar at the bottom of explorer, rather then than the top LIKE EVERY OTHER BROWSER, and then HIDING THE ADDRESS BAR UNLESS YOU SWIPE.....sometimes. Or hiding the windows button so that you need to move the mouse OFF THE SCREEN, not just near the edge.
If you go to the standard interface you discover that they now hide libraries, unless you specially display them - despite the fact that some apps like the photo viewer are directly linked to the library (I think - I've been using windows continuously since the first version came out and I can't tell how this really works in 8.1).
Windows, through windows 7 had a functional interface that almost everyone found familiar. Its true that with very limited screen space, it may have made sense to modify things, but on a desktop???? I have resisted buying another computer because I don't want to fight with win8 anymore, and I'm hoping something better comes along. Of course if I want a standard functional desktop I can just install Ubuntu....oh wait. (I'll probably just go with Debian next time).
Include latest service packs and drivers, etc. That might make people forgive them... maybe.
I'm not repeating myself
I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
Please tell me the browser cache is screwing with me. Please tell me that my wife wants to have sex more often ( ok that isn't going to happen, I have a 12 and 15 year old) Do we really have Slashdot.org back?
... if they have made Metro OPTIONAL, and they hadn't removed features from the desktop... such as the start menu.
regular users are "dumb" eh?
these regular users, these people cook your food at restaurants, police your neighborhood, file your taxes, etc etc...they aren't all 'idiots' and that attitude is ruining our design principles
if your system is so poorly designed that a high-school educated adult cannot use your system to do what it was designed to do, then it is **YOUR FAULT**
of course they seem 'dumb' to us...we are experts...you're a fucking idiot at plumbing, or car repair, or analog electronics, cooking...something
when a competent laymen user cannot use your system it is **YOUR FAULT**
Thank you Dave Raggett
Buy a workstation.
How can a high school student afford that under present child labor law?
So you think somebody should buy them a computer because they can't afford one?
No, I think that tablet makers should be more up front with customers about the limits of their products so that people know how much room for growth a tablet doesn't have. Right now, Apple charges $99 per year just to view the latest App Store Review Guidelines. Otherwise, there's no way for people deciding between a PC and a tablet to tell what there will never be an app for.
In that case, I don't understand why Visual Studio is also moving to a tabletized interface. Most of the design decisions, starting with color choice, only make sense for either the newer, smaller LCD screens on tablets, or the type of swipe or touch gestures on mobile devices.
Is it also designed for casual users who only want to check facebook, view some photos, and maybe post a selfie to instagram? Is it also designed for my computer illiterate little sister, for grandpas who don't know how to use that computer dofangle thingy, and for mom who just wants to look up apple pie recipes? Is Visual Studio simple, clear, and does one thing (and only one thing) relatively easily?
What about Server 2012?
Because, sure, you developed Windows 8 for tablets. But that design decision is cascading where it doesn't belong, making me think it was not really well thought through. Or if it was at one time, that time is long past. Poorly designed, poorly implemented, and not considering the actual people who have to use these things every day, at work, to accomplish things. You got the business market pretty locked up now, so fuck 'em while we go after the home users to stop them from going to Android and iOS?
The quote is out of context, and was part of a larger list of users. On its own it does seem negative - here's my full quote:
Metro is a content consumption space. It is designed for casual users who only want to check facebook, view some photos, and maybe post a selfie to instagram. It's designed for your computer illiterate little sister, for grandpas who don't know how to use that computer dofangle thingy, and for mom who just wants to look up apple pie recipes. It's simple, clear, and does one thing (and only one thing) relatively easily.
The word you are looking for is "iPad".
I am anarch of all I survey.
"Right. That is why I pointed out a comment which needlessly brought gender into a discussion that had nothing to do with gender"
Do yourself a favour - pull that rod out from your backside and grow the fsck up. Life isn't a school politics debate.
If metro is designed for people who know nothing about computers, why is everything hidden in secret corners?
Ok, granted the grabbing hand is a clue. So there is a clue that you can grab it, if you are despearately moving the mouse around and watching to see if it changes. Still not sure it qualifies for the term title bar though. No visible bar, and IIRC no title present.
"Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny! Free men pull in all sorts of directions" -- Havelock Vetinari
My last little experiment/finding was on a freshly booted Win 8 laptop, where the desktop hasn't been loaded already. So how to get to the desktop?, an option is to navigate the metro screen and to launch a random desktop app, but it's cumbersome and I have to close a program I didn't want in the first place.
So, to get to the desktop I can go to the Charms bar, click on the magnifying glass and search for the desktop! Just two or three letters (in the language the OS uses) and you find the desktop.
I find doing this sort of stuff hilarious. Somehow it's more easy than Unity in Ubuntu 12.04 : there I have trouble finding the damn terminal, but I can manage to get a raw xterm at least.
I remember this same thing when Vista came out. Pre-release press was met with a lot of reviews pointing out its failings, but once it became clear that Vista was a done deal, along came the shills. Article after article cherry-picking a good feature, rationalizing away its faults, diverting attention to the age of XP, or just shilling that we should all just get used to it and that's that.
Then Windows 7 is announced and all that goes away. Vista? Vista who? Windows 7 just worked, and people didn't write about it so much as just get it and use it.
But when Microsoft dropped the Windows 8 turd, the smoke machine fired right up again and articles like this just crop up all over the place, all trying to urge us that Metro is great and get used to it because we're stuck with it because the focus groups said so. Even though the adoption numbers clearly show that REAL people hate it. Probably bunches of these apologists are paid for by Microsoft, and others are just going for that warm fuzzy feeling of following the herd.
Microsoft really should get some better focus groups.
Take it easy, Charlie, I've got an Angle...
When he says "So we forced it upon them" "We drove them to it with goads in their sides", then you know he needs an "attitude ajustment"! ... well, nevermind.
With a
'... your computer illiterate little sister, ...'
My little sister is very computer literate, and so are her kids. My computer illiterate parents however might have been a better group to design the interface for, because I'm sure most of our younger siblings, regardless of sex, are very adept at picking up technology.
Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
It's hard to write something like this, because interventions are always hard. And despite the forum and all of the assumptions people make about internet forum postings, this is actually a message intended for you with the best of intentions. Jacob, please just stop. Please just change careers. Become a tester or a sales person or a horse trainer. I don't care. It's clear from your writing that your approach and attitude towards users and your job as a user experience person is exactly the opposite of what a good, effective, and successful designer takes. I'm not asking you to change careers because Metro is such a disaster. We all make mistakes. But you have little of the empathy towards other human beings that is required to be good at what you are employed to do. Look, I understand this is tough. You probably have spent a long time working on Metro and it's natural to want to defend something you helped create. The longer you spent on it, the more difficult it is to be objective about it. User experience is different than other kinds of roles in the engineering process. It requires us to be able to put our egos aside and put the user first. While it is generally true that everyone should be thinking about the user, being in UX means that you have to be the one that takes this to the extreme. It's your job to be not only a voice of the user, but be the amplifier turned up to 11. Good design is not about technical details, marketing considerations or sales figures. There are other people in the process to advocate for those other factors. User experience design is measured by those people on the other end of the software, not by anything else. Not by bug counts, skus sold, graphic design awards given or anything else. It's a bit similar to role of a defense attorney. It's not their jobs to make sure the right decision is reached. It's their job to be the best possible advocate for the defendent and to make sure that all of their rights under the law are respected. So back to you. I've read your numerous postings, comments, etc. here and elsewhere. It's clear to me and other people who are "users" that you are not our jealous advocate in the design process. And it's also clear that you are not able to do the most important thing which is required to become that advocate: listen. This post is not about Windows 8. It's about you. Please just stop, for both of our sakes.