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Russian Army Spetsnaz Units Arrested Operating In Ukraine
An anonymous reader writes with this excerpt from The Examiner: "The Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) confirmed March 16 the arrest of a group of Russians in the Zaporizhzhia (Zaporozhye) region of Ukraine. The men were armed with firearms, explosives and unspecified 'special technical means'. This follows the March 14 arrest ... of several Russians dressed black uniforms with no insignia, armed with AKS-74 assault rifles and in possession of numerous ID cards under various names. One of which was an ID card of Military Intelligence Directorate of the Russian armed forces; commonly known as 'Spetsnaz'. ... Spetsnaz commandos operating in eastern Ukraine would have the missions encompassing general ground reconnaissance of Ukrainian army units ... missions they may perform preparatory to a Russian invasion would be planting explosives at key communications choke points to hinder movement of Ukrainian forces; seizing control of roads, rail heads, bridges and ports for use by arriving Russian combat troops; and possibly capturing or assassinating Ukrainian generals or politicians in key positions ... Spetsnaz also infiltrate themselves into local populations ... Once in place they begin 'stirring the pot' of ethnic and political strife with the goal of creating violent clashes usually involving firearms and destabilizing local authority."
The submitter adds links to more at Forbes, The Daily Beast, and The New Republic.
We already have an air base in Kyrgyzstan, but it is set to close next year.
This would be the perfect replacement.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
These clearly are local volunteer defense units. Russia is only trying to protect its citizens in Crimea. It's not setting for a larger invasion and take over of Ukraine. And I, personally, think that $1700 is a very reasonable asking price for such a historic landmark as Brooklyn Bridge.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
That's all that needs to be said, really. I've said it since this whole thing began: If you think Putin is stopping at Crimea, you're a fucking moron.
This being a propaganda war more of the first degree, among these guys' objectives was, likely, the staging of violent incidents to give Russian media more video clips of Ukraine's "nazis" persecuting "innocent civilians".
Russia keeps trying to portray Ukraine's new government as the sort of Serbs persecuting Albanians in Kosovo (or Bosniaks in Bosnia) — so as to give itself the same justification West used for intervention against Milosevic.
Because Ukraine, despite daily provocations, refuses to engage in ethnic cleansings, "convincing" spetznas operations may be in order...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
The summary is over-hyping this story, which is a day or two old, and not given anything like this much play in the mainstream media. The link to Forbes is actually just to a third-party renting space on the Forbes site, and the New Republic piece is opinion, not news coverage. Not that I am in any way denying or condoning Putin’s invasion, but overreacting doesn’t help.
Ukrainian people are seeking democracy. They ousted Yanukovich during Orange Revolution (2008) for rigging elections, they ousted Yanukovich (2014) during Maidan Protests for attempting to amend the constitution, sacking and stacking judicial branch, and pillaging treasury to build his palaces. Twice Ukrainian people rose, twice they succeed. It is very clear Ukrainian people are not interested going back to being Soviet Ukraine.
As a result of this struggle, Putin sees Ukrainian protests as a direct threat to his dictatorship, least Maidan escalate into 'Russian Spring'. As such, he is willing to risk sanctions, isolation from West, and a shooting war in order to destabilize Ukraine at all costs. That why Crimea annexation, that why Soviet-era propaganda trying to paint Ukrainian protesters as radicals/nazis, that why he is sending covert ops into the rest of Ukraine.
What is more interesting, is that Russian KGB learned a great deal how to use Internet to misdirect and confuse otherwise very clear issue. Reading the comments sections of all major new sources you can clearly see paid shills spewing Kremlin's talking points and/or trying to derail the conversation.
How is this about technology Slashdot???? Quit trying to get web clicks and stop writing about technology, which is what slashdot is supposed to be about.
I think I read this story...
http://www.amazon.com/Command-Authority-Jack-Ryan-Clancy/dp/0399160477
hear you. Also, 1f Unless you 3an work
When I read this headline, all I could think of was Moneypenny's quote in the N64 Goldeneye game.
"Grabbed by the Spetsnaz, James? Sounds painful!"
Clearly while these troops probably were or are active Russian units, I expect they were either AWOL and/or certainly acting without orders. ... ... or at least thats what I expect we'll hear pretty soon.
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
If true, under the Geneva Convention these soldiers would be considered unlawful combatants and subject to Ukranian law.
the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
The russian military spying agency is handing out ID cards to their agents?
bickerdyke
Strange, I don't see anything specific to technology in Slashdot's header/manifesto. I believe it's "News for Nerds" and "Stuff that Matters". I'm sure there are plenty of history nerds on here to whom this matters
Heck, this is even under the appropriate category (The Military).
Perhaps you should restrict the article categories to only include Hardware and a few other sections you like, rather than imposing what you think the site should be about on everyone else.
PM Neville Chamberlain and the League of Nations said "Naughty naughty" to Putin.
I'm guessing in the next edition of SOCOM I won't be able to play the role of a spetnaz operative.
If they're Spetsnaz, and they allowed themselves to be arrested, they clearly had orders to not kill anybody, especially cops.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
So, the seal-team never got caught, eh? LOL!
Takes two to tango. Anyone w/ a brain knows the west was pushing for them to join the Euro mess And like in Syria last year, this was all about gas pipelines to Europe, in the end.
A brief introduction to the methods of our new Soviet overlords.
Circle the wagons and fire inward. Entropy increases without bounds.
Is Putin really trying to engineer a phony Hitleresque provocation? The sanctions need to get upped big time. I doubt Russia would mobilize for war behind that gluttonous kleptocrat.
I don't care who's right, who started what, which goverment is a puppet for which superpower. Really, I don't. I just have one simple request of everyone involved:
Can we please not stumble into World War III over the goddamned Ukraine!?
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
Excuse me, this is Slashdot, not Reddit or News of the World. Would you please keep the most obvious propaganda bullshit out of Slashdot? Every time you want to post a topic like "A woman gave birth to a six headed horse", "Intelligent peanut butter consumed a cat" or "Russian spetsnaz is planting explosives in Ukraine", consider a more appropriate site.
I think right now this situation is so complex and muddied that no-one is in the right, and no-one has all the information.
Accusations have gone back and forth like crazy but I still haven't seen any of them from either side backed up by evidence beyond "it's obvious", which, in this situation, I highly doubt.
As for these supposed Russian commandos... I really doubt they are what the report says they are. Whenever you send agents (either Spies or Commandos) into the field you strip them of anything that would identify them as spies/commandos, having ID cards for "Spetsnaz" sounds like a plant to me.
"We found the enemy's agents doing bad things so we have reason to attack!" when they are nothing more than your own agents planted to make them look like the enemy.
I also find it interesting that this bit of 'news' hasn't shown up on any even remotely neutral news sources. I frequent the BBC and have been watching their coverage of this Cluster F*** closely, and while they have agreed with USA in many of their stances and statements concerning this, they have no mention of this bit of news... makes me very suspicious of it's authenticity.
All that being said, I really think Russia is going to far and should back off, let things settle, allow the "newly independent Crimea" to exist for a while to prove it's not a Russian puppet but actually something it's people want.
DEMETRIUS: Villain, what hast thou done?
AARON: Villain, I have done thy mother.
Shakespeare invents 'your mom'
I'd say it just got real, except it's been real for weeks.
He added links "to Forbes" you say? Why didn't he also add links to Fox, Huffington and MacDonalds and as well? Nothing at the link to Forbes says anything even remotely similar to what the post is alleging (I didn't even bother to check the other ones).
Putin's neo-Stalinism aside, it may be sad to sit helplessly on the sidelines but the US has no territorial, economic, or security interest in Ukraine whatsoever. It's none of America's damn business.
Somewhere, sometime, the US has got to get over this notion of being the world's comic-book superhero.
Now is a good time to start. Picking a fight with a bully that has a huge nuclear arsenal is a bad idea.
Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
It turns out that Russian airborne units were holding large exercises around the time of the Crimea vote.
Russian Paratroopers Hold Massive Drills as Crimea Vote Nears
MOSCOW, March 11 (RIA Novosti) – An airborne division based in central Russia began large-scale exercises Tuesday against the backdrop of an ongoing political and security crisis in Ukraine.
The Defense Ministry said units of the 98th Guards Airborne Division, based in Ivanovo, a city east of Moscow, were put on high alert and moved to unspecified locations to “check readiness” in simulated combat conditions.
Four thousand troops, 36 military transport aircraft and an unspecified number of combat vehicles are taking part in the exercises, which will run until March 14.
The drills will include a massive simultaneous paradrop involving 3,500 servicemen, the ministry said.
The drills come in the wake of a number of military exercises in Russia’s western regions in the past days, including air defense drills, combat readiness snap checks and a launch of an intercontinental ballistic missile.
A mass tactical drop of 3,500 paratroopers is pretty big.
It is also worth noting that Russian airborne units are mechanized with air droppable infantry fighting vehicles like the BMD 3. That makes them highly mobile after a drop, and they have significant additional firepower. It is a deadly combination. A World War 2 tank division would find them tough to chew on.
Russian airborne troops with BMD 2 armoured fighting vehicles
A video broadcast on Internet shows Russian airborne with BMD-2 armoured infantry fighting vehicle in Veselaya Lopan 20km from the Ukraine border.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Anyone else notice this sounds suspiciously like the start of the plot of Command Authority happening in real life?
AJ Henderson
Russian military operating on foreign soil out of uniform? Last time I checked, that was called a "spy". Treat them like what they are.
Sure, at first appearance Russia isn't acting logically. Sure, east Ukraine has gas and oil which is good to have. But the naval station in Crimea doesn't really mean shit. All it takes is mine the narrow strait of Bosporus and no-one goes anywhere from or to the Black Sea. Why would you absolutely want to have a naval base in such a cul de sac... beats me.
Now, howevber...
If you look at the big picture all this really revolves around getting the Russians away from the Mediterranean thus cementing it into US/EU sphere of influence. Mediterranean is important because it's the soft underbelly of Europe and a possible long term solar energy source in the Northern Sahara regions. Of course a nation which has its economy in the shitter (Russia) and lives solely by exporting gas and oil cannot accept any form of alternative energy to reach Europe etc.
Anyway until the gas flow to Germany stops, this is all theatrical-political bullshit with friendly smiles taking place behind the scenes.
"Once in place they begin 'stirring the pot' of ethnic and political strife with the goal of creating violent clashes usually involving firearms and destabilizing local authority."
Is that sort of like the Ukrainian ultra nationalists that just overthrew a democratically elected government through violence rather than elections?
I have relatives in Ukraine living in Odessa oblast, Novoukrainka, Kiev and in Lviv, and friends in Crimea. Those listening to Russian news, are saying that ultra-nationalists are shooting Russians in the street in Lviv. Panicked, we called our relatives, and found they are absolutely fine, and the streets are quiet. A percentage of the population believes whatever the Russian media tells them; a form of information bias. Unfortunately, Russian media has past Ukraine in a pretty negative light, and have now resorted to telling outright lies, in what looks like an attempt to soften up Russian sympathetic Ukrainians to invasion; dividing and conquering within with an information war..
Hitler once said -- if you're going to tell a lie, don't tell a little one, tell a big one. Ukraine is a poor country. They just had to deal with the most corrupt leader they had ever experienced. Russia has somehow convinced it's citizens that ultra-nationalists have taken over the country. In reality closer ties with the EU require tolerance for minorities.
The elections are due at the end of May. All Russia would have to do to insure that a Russian sympathetic government is elected is to continue with an information war. It was/is unnecessary to send in the army, other than to carve out pieces of Ukraine.
Palin lied in 2008 and said Russia would invade the Ukraine. She's an idiot so that must be wrong. Now, the conservatives are looking for more reasons to be angry. Angry is what they love being. There is no way this is true. Russia knows Clinton gave his word and signed a treaty stating that the US would protect Ukraine if they gave-up their nuclear weapons. Considering there has been no action yet by the US, this is a bold-face lie. There is no incursion. The consequences are just too dire for this to be happening. Of course, those dire consequences are exactly what conservatives want to happen.
I couldn't care less about the plight of Crimea i just want Russia to nuke the USA off the face of the planet.
"Russian Army Spetsnaz Units Arrested Operating In ... "
Wasn't this one of the plotlines in the first 1/4 or so of Red Storm Rising ?
Russia would never invade. Unless you count Georgia, Crimea, and not quite so recently Finland, Czekeslovakia, Poland, Ukraine (all of it), Romania, Hungary, Kazikstan, Afghanistan, Germany... Too bad Ukraine doesn't have any of its old nukes left. I heard that they had pieces of an old SS-24 in a museum somewhere. Could be useful now.
Huh? Read the original post: "...SBU confirmed March 16 the arrest of a group of Russians...". Read the Forbes text: some guy allegedly made some baseless allegations, perfectly aligned with the established baseline propaganda level and thematics of the Ukraininan "internet warriors" and their handlers. This passage takes the cookie "Putin’s subversive forces will also gin up neo-Nazi incidents with Nazi regalia and Swastikas on full display." So, that was Putin's spetsnaz that threw Molotov cocktails at Berkut and exprlled Yanukovich from the country! LOL! But back to the topic. Arrest of a group of Russian spetsnaz. Where is it in the Forbes link? Please, elighten me.
TFA links to the actual PR from the Ukranian SBU:
http://www.sbu.gov.ua/sbu/cont...
Nowhere does it say the persons were of Russian origin.
Then we have one report about a single "military spy" who was heading for Crimea:
http://www.sbu.gov.ua/sbu/cont...
Now, from these two reports by a great leap of logic we come to the "spetznaz UNITS operating in Ukraine". Really, use your head people. Quoting marginal sites where the writers can't even spell. Classic.
The Spetsnaz like to think they are an elite on the same order as the British SAS, the German KSK, and the US Seals and Delta Force. I am not so sure they are even anywhere near comparable.
Russians are not usually know for waste, or excess in their military activities. They are provokers. Also, if the police shoots them, Russia have it's excuse to invade. They did something similar to my country in the WW2. Now were was my iodine pill storage again? Those air-tight canisters look a bit too small to hold a weeks water and food rations..bum baddam nuclear bum..
I don't know how bad they actually are. I bet they are badder then Ukrainian cops.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
pretty sure the troops in iraq had insignias, and puerto rico is going to be the 51st state.
If I want stories that have NOTHING to do with tech I will visit other places. FU slashdot.
nosig today
Hail United Ukraine! Hail to Heroes! One country for Ukrainians, whole and indivisible!
The reason the news on Ukraine is such a big deal is that it's largely been engineered by Russia.
But - what if the people in Crimea had agitated to secede from Ukraine and join Russia, without any provocation from Russia? This is not entirely far fetched, given the region's history and ethnic makeup.
Should the fact that Ukraine would not want this to happen be a reason for it not to happen?
Shouldn't the people who live in a locality be the main people who decide their destiny?
Deal with reality - the world as it is - rather than ideality - the world as you would like it to be.
All I see is one government trying to take control of a group of people from another government. What do the people want? I keep reading that the people who inhabit the part of Ukraine that Russia is invading are mostly cold-war era Russian transplants who would like to make their "new" home a part of Russia anyway.
Or, maybe this is all a lie. Maybe that area is still more Ukranian than Russian, or at least maybe they don't really want to be Russian. Or, maybe Russia is going to take all of Ukraine. Until someone makes these points we aren't talking about liberty. We are talking about two small groups of people (two governments) fighting over who gets to control a larger group. If you want to talk about liberty then let's hear what the people who live there want.
We have no interest in the Ukraine. This is true. We do, however, have interest the resurgence of Russia as an international antagonist. If we can stop Ukraine from entering into the Russian fold, we can put a kink in the establishment of the Eurasian Union (tentatively with Ukraine, Georgia, and Azerbaijan), which would otherwise negatively impact our economic clout.
Fact is, in an almost totally globalized economy, almost everyone has an interest (either direct or indirect) with every event in the world, whether you like or approve of it or not.
1. I thought that the (corrupt and now ousted) government of Ukraine was elected by the majority of Ukrainian population under international supervision (i.e., the elections were monitored and shown to be not rigged)? What does this overthrow of the legitimately elected government make the current power-holders in Ukraine?
2. People of Crimea had a referendum, and overwhelming majority (90+%) decided to secede from Ukraine (of which they were part only since end of 50-ties, courtesy of Khrushchev) and join Russian Federation. This referendum (voting) was also internationally supervised, and the observers stated that the voting process was not tampered with (i.e., it really is "the will of the people").
Are people of Crimea less entitled to self-determination than those of Kosovo, Bosnia, Slovenia, Abkhazia, etc. etc?
1938, right?
Having lived through WWI, all the nations that would eventually be called "the allies" were repelled by the idea of another big war and so they all did everything they could to deny the reality that was right before their eyes. They all, in effect, said "can we please not stumble into World War II over the damned Czechoslovakia!?"
Desperate to save their own skins and unwilling to stick-up-for a follow free country, the future "allies" all turned their backs as Hitler declared that the people of the "sudatenland" were really more German than Czech, his people stirred-up ethnic passions there, then they rolled-in to take control (claiming they were protecting the ethnic Germans there), then... well just replace "Russia","Putin","Crimea" with "Germany",Hitler","Sudatenland" and everything else is the same... including that probable ultimate outcome (probably worse the longer Putin as allowed to do this stuff, as it was made worse 80 years ago by allowing Hitler to do this stuff)
The funny thing about Putin is that the frequently-shirtless little goose-stepping autocratic creep isn't really an original-thinker.... right down to hosting the Olymipcs just before starting the international crisis... the ONLY reason he's able to re-enact Hitler (to the extent he is), is that there's no Churchill in England (currently lead by ,mealy-mouthed idoelogically-confused functionaries) and no FDR or Eisenhower in the U.S. (currently lead by a clueless punk who spent half his life stoned, and the other half as a rabble-rouser - no experience with principles, leadership or productivity)
"Technical means" is just "equipment".
spread throughout the free countries in the thirties while Hitler was on the march. "Not ME! I have no reason to fight for THOSE people! I am safe and comfortable, so screw the little people in those far-away lands... they mean nothing to ME and MY life is worth much more than any of THEIR lives!"
Disgusting, and short-sighted
YOUR life is not any more valuable than the life of a Ukranian. Your freedom is hollow if purchased by watching others lose theirs. And, since you seem to be only concerned with yourself, let me point out that the history of tyrants who go on the march gobbling-up other lands and then become content (who stop to become comfortable old rulers who die quietly in their sleep of old age) is remarkably thin.... goose-stepping tyrants who go on the march gobbling-up neighbors generally do not stop until they are stopped by external force.
Part of the whole point of the Cold War in the West was that if civilized nations are well-armed and stand together with firm resolve, problems like this need not arise in the first place... we're in this bad position now precisely because so many western nations disarmed in order to provide things like nationalized healthcare (fine if you want it AND can pay for it WITHOUT disarming), and made themselves vulnerable to blackmail by abandoning domestic energy in favor of "greener" natural gas fed to them by Putin (is ANY effect of "Global Warming" as bad as all the effects of being blackmailed by Putin?). These mindless acts of utopian thinking would not be so dangerous in a world where EVERY nation did them.... but here on planet Earth there are some nasty people like Putin who have every intention of taking advantage of short-sighted self-centered fools who do these things
And before you challenge me like you did the previous poster.... I'm too old to fight. I wore a U.S. uniform during the Cold War and was willing to put my life on the line so you and your friends could live happy childhood lives and grow-up with freedom. Sad to see that you assign so little value to that freedom.
I guess it depends on the meaning of the word "is"....
So an "assurance that there wouldn't be an encroachment" is different from an "assurance of protection".... hmmm.... yup .... I see that now..... this was clearly a document authored by Bill Clinton (probably under oath). Any assurance that nobody will encroach is worthless and completely meaningless if it is not an assurance of protection. THINK about it: If I assure you that nobody will break into your house, but then somebody DOES, and I then respond by saying "I never said I'd protect your house!", you'd be pretty outraged and probably nobody would ever trust me and my carpet-bagging "assurances" again.
At this point, the people of Poland, Estonia, etc should probably begin their own nuclear weapons programs, since apparently all the assurances of their freedom are just words to be re-interpreted by progressives in the West. Good luck getting the people of Israel to EVER trust western assurances relative to territorial encroachment as part of any peace deal... it's now patently obvious that no such treaty is worth anything if a "progressive" Democrat is in the White House... (they already knew they could not trust traditional Democrats, given the actions of FDR re the Holocaust...)
Your "facts" are only plausible inside Bill Clinton's personal "Bubba bubble" where words mean precisely what he means them to mean when he utters them (as opposed to meaning what the dictionary says they mean).
If they're Spetsnaz, and they allowed themselves to be arrested, they clearly had orders to not kill anybody, especially cops.
Ukraine has its own Spetsnaz, army, and internal security units, not just traffic cops.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
My god... Please consult the sources first before you start talking about ultra-nationalists overthrowing the govt. There were some but there were also loads of Jews, Russians (yes, most Russians in Ukraine do not want Putin to "protect" them) and dozens of other minorities and groups. So please STFU about the radicals.
The US has to do no such thing. Someone has to be boss, and someone always will be. The US is a *lot* better than anyone else. By a mile. Perhaps you have not understood how human relations work.
Yes it is.
This is more like WWI than WWII.
In WWI you had a couple small local actions (triggered by ethnic minorities) that spawned larger conflicts. People kept escalating, in part due to treaty obligations, and the whole world was eventually fighting.
In WWII Hitler's plan was domination, he didn't care about Germans in Czechoslovakia, they were simply an excuse to get the ball rolling. The failure of appeasement was it gave Hitler additional power when he never had the intention of stopping.
In the current scenario many Russians legitimately believe that Crimea is properly part of Russia, a few years back I was a Russian action film where the main character kills some Ukrainian mafia and as he does so says “You bitches will answer to me for Sevastopol!”. So it isn't a purely cynical manoeuvre on his part.
So the big plan for Putin isn't to take over the world Hitler style, it's to take back the bits of territory that Russians think are supposed to be part of Russia. That's still really bad for the countries involved, but I don't know if it's something where we want to risk a world war involving nuclear powers.
I stole this Sig
Doesn't change their apparent rules of engagement. Not that I'm convinced they're Ruskies in the first place.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Since they are operating in a foreign country in what is almost certainly a covert manner they probably didn't have their weapons out and at the ready. Since the police / internal security / army probably did the advantage would be with the Ukrainians, not the Russians. Surrender or get shot. Simple.
As to who they are, there seems to be precedent for Russian troops in Ukraine lately, doesn't there?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
If Russia wanted they could have rolled their tanks into Kiev. This is just pro-Western NATO sponsored nazi propaganda at its best. Stay gullible people. You're amusing. I read that the West was planning some kind of false flag to destabilise the Ukraine and gain more control. This is how they're doing it - Russian "terrorists"...
Yeah.
Please Hillary and Horseface both claimed there was a reset with Russia. And the Dark Doofus prevented missile defense being sent to Poland because he wanted to show Putin what a good guy he was.
And most of you fuckwits reading this voted for the idiot Obama. Maybe they should move the voting age up to 40. Only way to get the starry eyed assholes out of American politics.
Unfortunately, that doesn't matter. While being a very valid point of today in 2014; it won't be in the future. I was watching documentary on war, and even some world news debates. It didn't take long for someone to point out, that as time progresses, so do the weapons. Use a mental timeline to envision going from: sticks and stones > to projectiles (arrows, guns) > to chemical warfare (Agent Orange(Korea)) > nuclear > What's next? Cyber-terrorism?. The point is, you can verbally battle it out on who should be allowed to harbor nuclear power, but that won't stop the production of other means to basically commit global genocide. The best part is... there are people making money off these actions!
WMD - nuff said
Curious, how different is this than the way US is reported to have acted in everything from Nicaragua to Libya?
Boots on the ground, helping insurgency..
I think we should go past this.. And the rhetoric is amazing.. the west is standing behind the results of an insurgency, while condemning a popular vote..(shake head)
(If anything, the west should be pushing to make sure the voting was fair.. IN both cases)
I thought we support 'recall' and 'voting' .. not insurrection in the streets.
Wonder if the CIA and Spetsnaz sit at a Ukrainian bar each night to see who is doing a better job?
Anyways, lets get past this, the people will decide, now just move on to how much Crimea (Russia Loans) should pay Ukraine for the federal property located in Crimea.. Treat it like we would if Quebec opted out of Canada ;)
So one (possibly stolen) ID (of many) "proves" something? Really?
The IDs are very suspicious. There is disinformation coming from all sides.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The treaty, or memo or or whatever it was, stated Ukraine was to give up nukes in return for promises the signatories would not attack. If Russia has broken that then there is no reason for the Ukrain to remain a none nuclear state. Obviously they are not going to flip a switch and immediately become a nuclear power again over night (baring a really big surprise). So, no one has to send troops to restore Ukraines previous defense against an aggressive Russia. We turn over some nukes to them with a legitimate capability to launch them while they rebuild their arsenal. We could make Ukrainian possession of nuclear arms contingent on Russian encroachment. IE Russia goes back into their borders, the world takes their nukes from them back and reinstates the previous arrangement. This could serve as the basis of blocking Putin in any of the previous WARSAW pact countries he may be fantasizing about adding back to the Russian fold. Suggest at least the UK and US provide some munitions... Along with any other signatories that possess nuclear arms that has not broken faith (ie invaded the Ukraine). This requires commitment ala Kennedy over the Cuba missile crisis. If we (and by we I mean the rest of the world) are not willing to accept Ukraine might actually use them in its own defense it is pointless. If you think its nuts, you do not appreciate MAD.... Then again, perhaps you do :-) This is the only known deterrent for Russia post WW II, Then again it is basically the only one that was tried. Sample of one and all that.
If we really do not want to turn the weapons over we or someone else could act as a proxy on Ukraine's behalf. Really hard to say if there would be any perceived difference in our role (ie possibility of retaliation from Russia against us instead of the Ukraine) between the two options. But I do know that handing them over to Ukraine would certainly change the perceived likelihood they would get used. Really good odds Putin backs the fuck off if this were done. Of course possibility of old school mushroom cloud based WW III Is also at play. But really... That is the bluff Putin is calling here. He is betting no one will step up on a nuclear front and that nobody has the nerve to get bloody. Factor in a lot of pent up frustration from a Russian population that has lagged behind the west but things are generally improving and you have a particularly ugly recipe for old school nation state boot stomping action. Putin has support. And he is thumbing his nose at NATO and the US daring them to do something.
I don't ask you to be me. I only ask you not expect me to be you.
Too many Russians posting on this page!
My karma is bad. Don't get too close!!!
You're kidding me, right? So you can totally believe that Russia moved thousands and thousands of troops into the province of Ukraine known as Crimea in an invasion to seize and annex that territory, but it is too much to believe that any of them were operating outside of Ukraine? Including special forces teams or Russian intelligence personnel that would customarily operate covertly? In areas where they could probably fit in as natives? While Russia "innocently" moved 60,000 troops adjacent to the border in a obvious show of force as threat of a wider invasion?
You may have moved into the region of "willing suspension of judgment."
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Again, I said everyone. Unless you consider the Russians to not be part of everyone (You do concede they are human, yes?) then you grossly mis-interpreted my original post.
Also, you are talking about WWII, not WWI, which is funny since WWI is probably the closer analog to this situation.
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
Exactly, whilst the likes of the SAS has been doing everything from breaking hostage situations in planes and embassies, to obliterating rebel forces in places like Sierra Leone to general combat against the Taliban for the last few years Spetnatz have relatively just basically been sat getting fat, nor have they had any worthwhile funding up until recent years.
Spetnatz at this point are probably no more effective than British Army or US Marine regulars given the contrast in funding for training, equipment, and real actual battle experience, and the likes of the British Ghurkas whilst not exactly at SAS standards would almost certainly eat Spetnatz for breakfast.
I don't believe special forces would be carrying all the ID claimed to be on these men. I don't believe they would be there without a specific mission and would be in and out with minimum exposure.
It is in range for the Russians to give McLovin type spetnatz IDs to a bunch of yahoos, just to create chaos and undermine the credibility of the Ukrainians.
The art of war, is the art of deception.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
You might have heard that special operations don't always go as planned.
They no doubt had a specific mission, we just don't know what that is. We do know the types of mission they are doctrinally prepared to execute. They would only be "in and out" if that is what the mission called for. If their mission was keeps eyes on Ukrainian security forces and report they would be staying until no longer needed, wouldn't they? If their mission was to stir up civil unrest they probably wouldn't just be "in and out" since that take time. If their mission was to infiltrate and be prepared to commit sabotage, or capture or kill Ukrainian leaders they wouldn't be "in and out." It doesn't look like the Russian special forces in Crimea, Ukraine, have left yet. They are in but not out.
I'm puzzled why you think that multiple fake IDs would not be useful in a modern society for covert operations? You're willing to believe that fake IDs can be handed out by Russia to people in Ukraine, but not to Russians going to Ukraine?
At this point I'm not sure where we can go with the conversation. You seem committed to believing that Russian special forces can be found in one part of Ukraine, but not another. That doesn't really seem logical. Part of the art of war?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell