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White House Punts On Petition To Allow Tesla Direct Sales

First time accepted submitter neanderslob (1207704) writes Last Friday, over a year after the petition gained the required signatures for a response, the White House rejected a We the People petition to "Allow Tesla Motors to sell directly to consumers in all 50 states." The letter went on to defend the administration by citing their initiatives "in promoting vehicle efficiency." In response, Tesla is firing back, blasting the White House for a lack of leadership on the issue and stating "138,469 people signed the petition asking the White House to allow Tesla Motors to sell directly to consumers in all 50 states. More than a year later, at 7.30pm EST on Friday as most of America prepared for the weekend, the White House released its disappointing response to those people. Rather than seize an opportunity to promote innovation and support the first successful American car company to be started in more than a century, the White House issued a response that was even more timid than its rejection of a petition to begin construction of a Death Star." There's a legal issue here: the executive can't just wave state law aside. But they could suggest Congress write new laws instead of just noting that Congress would need to take action.

382 comments

  1. He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If he can declare war without congressional approval why can't he waive state laws?

    1. Re:He cant or wont? by just_another_sean · · Score: 1

      If he can declare war without congressional approval...

      When did he do that?

      --
      Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
    2. Re:He cant or wont? by tysonedwards · · Score: 4, Informative

      As a country, the United States has not Declared War against anyone since World War II, it has however by Executive Order by the Commander in Chief gone to war with several countries.

      --
      Thirty four characters live here.
    3. Re:He cant or wont? by thaylin · · Score: 1

      That seems to be a talking point for some zealots now.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    4. Re: He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Iraq of course.
      That was a liberal demOCrat war the the patriotic tea party warned us not to go in to. Don't you watch Fox?

    5. Re:He cant or wont? by just_another_sean · · Score: 1

      OK, so he means Obama and several other administrations over the last ~60-70 years. Seemed specific to Obama to me in the OP but put your way I guess their's a point to be made in there somewhere...

      --
      Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
    6. Re:He cant or wont? by dudeman2 · · Score: 2

      He should declare war on local car dealers. That'll fix em.

    7. Re:He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2011 Libya "military intervention" -- I guess it's just not considered a "war" if you expect 99.9% of your soldiers to come home without so much as scraped knees.

    8. Re:He cant or wont? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 0

      Who cares what the WH thinks? Its State Law. Let the voters in each state decide what they want. Its not like you can't go to another state to make the purchase, that's just lost tax revenue for the restricting states. Eventually, it will get worked out. Meanwhile,today, if you can afford a $90,000 car, I doubt there are any real impediments to your making that purchase.

    9. Re:He cant or wont? by sycodon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Really, it doesn't matter when he or any other President did that.

      What really matters is that the ignorant fool of an AC believes that he should be able to do that. It should scare the shit out of everyone that even an AC would think that a President should be able to cast aside state laws with a mere wave of his hand or executive order. That's fucking dictator shit right there.

      People have thrown the Dictator charge around and it's been consider kookville, because there has always been some arguable legal construct supporting it. But for anyone to seriously suggest that a President has unilateral discretion over the laws of individual states is scary and should get everyone's attention.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    10. Re:He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    11. Re: He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why let facts get in the way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... It's not like any democrats voted against the war in iraq.

    12. Re:He cant or wont? by thaylin · · Score: 4, Informative

      It is actually interstate commerce which congress has a say in under the commerce clause. Also most states charge you sales tax via your EOY tax forms for out of state purchases.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    13. Re:He cant or wont? by IronOxen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That will ensure their success. Anything we declare war on thrives like never before.

    14. Re:He cant or wont? by cellocgw · · Score: 2

      Meanwhile,today, if you can afford a $90,000 car, I doubt there are any real impediments to your making that purchase.

      That's all very nice and snarky, but Tesla's got a Model E in design with a target sticker price of around $30k US. Wouldn't it be nice to fix the problem now, so in a couple years we don't have to order our Tesla-E via Amazon Prime?

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    15. Re:He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This distinction rarely matters to the soldier.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war

    16. Re:He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Obama protection brigade...stand down...for now.

    17. Re:He cant or wont? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, let's just not have any democrats on local city councils when you lose all the local petty power brokers .

    18. Re:He cant or wont? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      True, I forgot about the state tax adjustment. Thanks

    19. Re:He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously Obama invented the idea of executive action, that's why Republicans want to impeach ANYONE who does such things... right? Fair/Balanced?

    20. Re:He cant or wont? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Why is this just a problem now? People have been buying cars under this model for quite some time. The drive train technology makes no difference. People need to recognize that, and make the fight technology neutral, before they'll get anything changed.

    21. Re:He cant or wont? by tysonedwards · · Score: 1

      It was my understanding that "he" in the OP's context was more the "title" rather than this specific man, since this specific man has in fact not "declared war, gone to war, ..."

      There have been "authorizations to use military forces in peacekeeping operations in compliance with guidelines of UN Resolutions" but not a "Declaration" by the Executive and in the eyes of the law there is a pretty gigantic distinction (Morally, there is none).

      States do have some degree of sovereignty when it comes to making their own laws.

      The President has the authority to enact an Executive Order which will have with it the full force of law with it, but only within the confines of Federal Law.

      So, the OP is completely wrong in that the President can't legally do either of those two things due to the Separation of Powers for the Executive Branch.

      There is something to be said for the Interstate Commerce Clause placing this into Federal jurisdiction rather than State, but that would be a very massive change and would probably be better suited for the Supreme Court rather than either the Legislative or Judicial branches.

      --
      Thirty four characters live here.
    22. Re:He cant or wont? by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      > so in a couple years we don't have to order our Tesla-E via Amazon Prime?

      Why not? The shipping is free (or at least unmetered)

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    23. Re:He cant or wont? by chuckugly · · Score: 1

      There is something to be said for the Interstate Commerce Clause placing this into Federal jurisdiction rather than State, but that would be a very massive change and would probably be better suited for the Supreme Court rather than either the Legislative or Judicial branches.

      Finally a legitimate use for the Interstate Commerce Clause, and the ball is dropped.

    24. Re:He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The problem is that Elon Musk thought that Car Salesman are typically third rate scum and didn't want their kind in a typical "Dealership" model where there is not a damn thing that he can do to correct the problem should a Dealership be dragging down his brand, so he went the Apple route where they own the entire chain... Design, Marketing, Support, Servicing, Sales, Finance, ... In the process, giving people an exceptional experience where they get what they want rather than being told "No, I will not sell this to you, and please leave!"

    25. Re:He cant or wont? by Guspaz · · Score: 2

      The American constitution grants their federal government the power to regulate interstate commerce. Laws forbidding an out-of-state manufacturer from selling directly in a state would seem to fall under that category. The constitution does not expressly forbid such activity, so far as I can tell, but it does mean that the federal government has the jurisdiction to override them.

    26. Re:He cant or wont? by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 2

      The problem is that Elon Musk thought that Car Salesman are typically third rate scum

      You mean they aren't? In all seriousness from my experience they mostly range from mildly incompetent to circus carny levels of dodgyness. There has only been one that I had dealt with that I would say was a good guy but that was at a high end dealer.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    27. Re:He cant or wont? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      You mean the ones where we had AUMFs issued by congress?

    28. Re:He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So that's why you never actually declare war on any of the countries you invade? Huh, that's quite clever...

    29. Re:He cant or wont? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Laws forbidding an out-of-state manufacturer from selling directly in a state would seem to fall under that category.

      Those laws apply to in-state manufacturers as well, AFAIK.

    30. Re:He cant or wont? by NEDHead · · Score: 1

      Is it New Years? I didn't see the ball drop. Why is it so warm?

    31. Re:He cant or wont? by tysonedwards · · Score: 1

      Authorizations to Use Military Force are intended to be joint efforts taken by multiple members of the United Nations and specifically for the purpose of engaging in "Peace Keeping" (boy, is that a wonderful euphemism!) operations.

      Still, legally a separate distinction from a "Declaration of War" or other incidents of just "Going to War".

      Semantics, I know, but the thread ultimately revolves around the Legal Powers assigned to each Branch of Government, and those semantics do matter in that regard, even more so when talking about superseding the legal authority for State Sovereignty amidst conflicting interpretation of laws as to whether something like Tesla's Sales Practices should be able to function under the terms of Federal Jurisdiction due to the Interstate Commerce Clause or whether it should be controlled by individual State laws due to customers "residing" within a State and them purchasing an automobile.

      --
      Thirty four characters live here.
    32. Re:He cant or wont? by xclr8r · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's for the best. Anything the current President tries to push forward gets a 99.999% chance of opposition. He's taking one for the team by feigning disinterest and this may actually go somewhere. (Yes I am in Dreamland).

      --
      Beware of those who profit off the docile and persecute the unbelievers.
    33. Re:He cant or wont? by mi · · Score: 1

      Those laws apply to in-state manufacturers as well

      Indeed. With creative interpretation this law (singular) can be found to prohibit even growing food for your own consumption... Or anything else the Executive pleases.

      Along with the "general welfare" clause — another loophole unfortunately left in the Constitution by its framers (the slave-owning gang of White men, you know) — this lets the President do anything — legally.

      That some of the Executives hesitate, is a sign, that other things still sort-of work in this country. The Constitution does not, unfortunately...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    34. Re:He cant or wont? by afidel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He should tell Congress that Tesla should be blocked from direct sales, that's the only way to ensure that a law allowing direct sales in all 50 states will be passed =)

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    35. Re:He cant or wont? by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 1

      The reason it's a problem now, is the fact that the dealership method conflicts with anything new. Normal dealerships don't want anything to do with Tesla. Especially when they basically sell one model of car right now and there is no stratification. If Tesla offered the Roadster, S, and their upcoming E it still would probably not appeal to most dealerships. So for Tesla to sell it's cars it needs it's own method for getting sales.

      The last example of this I can think of is Saturn. Saturn was not sold in my state because it did a bit of an end run around conventional dealerships as well. However Saturn is still much closer to a dealership experience then what Tesla wants and that scares the dealerships shitless.

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    36. Re: He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bush forced them to agree. It's all W's fault.

    37. Re:He cant or wont? by WormholeFiend · · Score: 1

      All you have to do is change the legal definition of "ordnance" to that of "fireworks"

    38. Re:He cant or wont? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      ... better suited for the Supreme Court rather than either the Legislative or Judicial branches.

      It doesn't work like that. The Supreme Court can only rule on cases brought before it. So someone has to sue the states to invalidate these laws. Tesla doesn't have the resources, and private companies should not have to individually fight for their basic rights. We all have an interest in competitive markets. The attorney general should sue the states. That's his job, and Obama can and should order him to do it. He's willing to squander billions on subsidies, but unwilling to spend a penny on a simple free market solution that will accomplish far more.

    39. Re:He cant or wont? by schlachter · · Score: 2

      As a country, the United States has not Declared War against anyone since World War II, it has however by Executive Order by the Commander in Chief gone to war with several countries.

      Fixed that for you...

      As a country, the United States has not Declared War against anyone since World War II, it has however by Executive Order by the Commander in Chief gone to war with several dozen countries.

      --
      My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    40. Re:He cant or wont? by JavaLord · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ... why can't he waive state laws?

      The last time the president did that, hundreds of thousands of Americans lost their lives in the resulting conflict.

      Presidents (and federal officials) can browbeat states into changing state law pretty easily by threatening to revoke federal funds.

    41. Re:He cant or wont? by micahraleigh · · Score: 2

      Congress authorized Iraq under GWB.

      Congress did not authorize Libya.

    42. Re:He cant or wont? by zeroryoko1974 · · Score: 1

      He is to busy trying to get hundreds of thousands of future democrats strategically placed to swing the vote when they get their amnesty for illegals passed.

    43. Re:He cant or wont? by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      We should never forget: Even if you feel the sitting President is the messiah in the flesh, can never do any wrong, and is sincerely and intelligently capable of making decisions that are the absolute best in every situation...

      The powers you grant this President will be provided to the next. And the next one may not be so good.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    44. Re:He cant or wont? by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      And the next one may not be so good.

      And by this, I meant the next one may be another Hitler.

      (In before "But Godwin!"... talk of Hitler is perfectly logical when the subject is dictatorship.)

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    45. Re:He cant or wont? by DaHat · · Score: 1

      Still, legally a separate distinction from a "Declaration of War" or other incidents of just "Going to War".

      Semantics, I know,

      Explain please then how what you call a 'semantics' difference is also 'legally a separate distinction'.

      We aren't talking the difference between murder & manslaughter (both legally defined in law as well as their conditions that must be).

      Care to point out which section of the US Constitution or other bit of international law which legally shows the difference?

    46. Re:He cant or wont? by firex726 · · Score: 1

      You're confusing military action with an actual war.

      The last formal declaration of war was WWII, since then everything else has been military engagements and police actions.

    47. Re:He cant or wont? by tysonedwards · · Score: 1

      Semantics: the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. There are a number of branches and subbranches of semantics, including formal semantics, which studies the logical aspects of meaning, such as sense, reference, implication, and logical form, lexical semantics, which studies word meanings and word relations, and conceptual semantics, which studies the cognitive structure of meaning.

      Not the US Constitution, however the War Powers Resolution of 1973 (50 U.S.C. 1541-1548) is Federal Law of the United States, and acknowledged by the UN Security Council. The United States Constitution creates the Separation of Powers as well as the mechanisms for the Legislative Branch to enact new laws, which themselves become part of the United States Code. In this case, the Legislative Branch wanted the law, the Executive (Nixon) vetoed it, and was then overridden by a 2/3 vote in both Legislative Houses at which point it became law.

      There is a clear distinction between a "Declaration of War", the use of an "Authorization of Military Force" provision by Congress, or simply "Going to War", as is possible without Congressional Approval under the War Powers Resolution of 1973.

      Under the War Powers Resolution of 1973, the President can commit our Armed Forces to any act that seen fit without authorization from Congress in the form of an Authorization of Military Force or a formal Declaration of War with the following restrictions placed on it:
      - the President must notify Congress within 48 hours of committing armed forces to military action.
      - armed forces are forbidden from remaining for more than 60 days + a 30 day withdrawal period.

      --
      Thirty four characters live here.
    48. Re:He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think drive train does makes a huge difference. It could be the end of half of all auto repair. That alone should be enough to threaten the current dealer model.

    49. Re:He cant or wont? by Stan92057 · · Score: 1

      And liberty and justice for all...who can afford it. I think our pledge of allegiance should be changed to that because that is the 100% truth.

      --
      Jack of all trades,master of none
    50. Re:He cant or wont? by davydagger · · Score: 1

      your making a false dichotomy out of the two like there is any real diffrence.

    51. Re:He cant or wont? by davydagger · · Score: 1

      and regulating interstate commerce is the power of congress. unilateral action by the president here, would be....foolish.

      It would be outside of the bounds of the presidents power.

    52. Re: He cant or wont? by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 1

      When you own the CIA, you're a little bit more responsible than the people in Congress who don't know anything about the supposed "threat" but what they're told.

    53. Re:He cant or wont? by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      The AG can't sue them unless the States are in violation of some Federal statute, which they are not, since their is no Federal law prohibiting the practice. Not defending the WH, or anyone else, but the statement that Congress must take action is in fact entirely accurate. There just isn't any Federal law regarding this topic for there to be any action from any agency of the Executive.

    54. Re:He cant or wont? by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      He didn't need them to.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2...
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O...

      There is a legitimate contention however regarding whether or not it's OK to have troops in the area not engaged in "military action" after the sunset of the non-authorized force allowance expires.

      I also wouldn't try too hard to draw a lot of parallels between the Iraq War, and the super limited Libyan intervention, you'll sprain your brain.

    55. Re:He cant or wont? by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      And when demonstrating how a democratically elected government can fall into dictatorship.
      Ultimately, it's not inconceivable that with enough resources and power, some day a US executive could... dismiss Congress.

    56. Re:He cant or wont? by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      On the contrary, actual Congressional declarations of war have ended Empires.

      It's our little corporate military-backed expeditions that seem to work out in the favor of the targets... and the defense industry.

    57. Re:He cant or wont? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      No., you are not. the pub try to block anything that President Obama wants to put forward. There have been 1 or 2 exceptions.
      We are talking about a party that will refuse to back their bills and ideas when Obama thinks they are a good idea. A party that sets a compromise, then when it's agreed on moves the goal post. Over and Over again.
      It's really bad, and It's all documented.
      Really, if you are unhappy with congress not doing anything, you should not vote republican. If that happens one time in mass, they will change. AS long as they can count on people falling for FUD, they will only get worse.

      You can talk about both parties., but right not, th pub are far wars then an y group for over 60 years.

      And yes, it the dem were simply blocking, whining and them blaming others, I'd be call for people to vote pub
      Of course if you like science you should be voting for them anyways.,

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    58. Re:He cant or wont? by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      They are.

    59. Re:He cant or wont? by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      *shrug* I don't see why that would be a big deal. I'm Canadian, where in a majority government, the prime minister can basically do whatever he wants for four years. The limitations are what the supreme court says will fly with the constitution, and the knowledge that if you do something too unpopular, your party will lose the next election and somebody else will get to form the government. Or if you go way too far overboard, you might have a cabinet revolt to pick another party leader (and by extension prime minister).

      The american system where the leader of the country is at odds with the representatives seems very inefficient to me. Why is the person ostensibly leading the country not the one deciding what the government should do? Why else are they the leader of the country? I don't see how American governments can get anything done without the stability of a leader empowered to make decisions that have impact.

    60. Re:He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Real Estate agents are 2nd rate scum, while lawyers and politicians duke it out for 1st place.

    61. Re: He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going to suppose you were drunker than I am when you wrote this steamy pile of shit.

    62. Re:He cant or wont? by davydagger · · Score: 1

      >Or if you go way too far overboard, you might have a cabinet revolt to pick another party leader (and by extension prime minister).

      in the USA, the president picks his cabinet, and they are basicly his apointees. Party leadership has no direct control over a sitting politician, but can only exert influence financially or with brand name support durring elections.

    63. Re:He cant or wont? by IronOxen · · Score: 1

      Metaphorical war not actual Congressional declarations of war ... I was thinking: War on drugs, poverty, terrorism, cars, gangs, graffiti... off the top of my head.

  2. What? by just_another_sean · · Score: 5, Funny

    An internet petition that went nowhere? Unpossible!

    Seriously, the White House petition site is just PR. I'm no Obama hater but anyone who thinks that would ever be an effective way to influence policy is probably still sitting on the edge of their seat waiting for Firefly to come back on television.

    --
    Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
    1. Re:What? by sunking2 · · Score: 5, Funny

      The Death Star proved that. Overwhelming support. Brushed under the rug. This administration is a joke.

    2. Re:What? by gandhi_2 · · Score: 0

      if your president decides who sells what, where, when, and how... you aren't free.

      ditto if your governor, state legislature, or city council is doing it.

      this entire thing is bullshit. it isn't up to any of them, for or against.

    3. Re:What? by ilparatzo · · Score: 2

      If I write a petition asking for something that the President is passionate about, I would expect that I'd get a major response and it would be used to drive policy change.

      Otherwise, stamp a form letter in response and move on.

    4. Re:What? by RenderSeven · · Score: 1

      ... waiting for Firefly to come back on television.

      Wait, what? Firefly isnt coming back???

    5. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This has nothing to do with Obama or some other basterd sitting in white house they are all not very effective rulers. They can still send marines or order of bombing some lesser nations into oblivion but an act of law that would be difficult especially with congress acting like it does.

    6. Re:What? by click2005 · · Score: 1

      No Death Star so I tried to Kickstarter one.. how the hell do I exploit this for lols?

      --
      I am a free slashdotter. I will not be modded, blogged, DRM'd, patented, podcasted or RFID'd. My life is my own.
    7. Re:What? by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 4, Informative

      Did you read the response? It's great.

      https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/isnt-petition-response-youre-looking

      "Why would we spend countless taxpayer dollars on a Death Star with a fundamental flaw that can be exploited by a one-man starship?"

    8. Re:What? by thaylin · · Score: 1

      I think the point of this was for the president to say that no one gets to say who sells what, when, where and how.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    9. Re:What? by just_another_sean · · Score: 1

      Oh I agree with you. But that's what makes the whole petition thing a great PR machine. I'd argue that almost any change people are requesting will require at least some level of approval from the legislature so Obama can say "Oh, I agree and am as passionate about (insert topic here) as you are, but that do-nothing congress, well, sorry but we can't do much..."

      It's not that it's Obama's fault but I find the whole thing disingenuous at best, similar to his campaign messages* that got everyone excited enough to vote for him.

      * And here again there are really no differences between either party, or one politician over another.

      --
      Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
    10. Re:What? by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      People forget that United States is a Democratic Republic. Not a democracy.

      Not all popular idea's will go out or should go out, just because the majority wills it. The point of a Democratic Republic, is the Citizens vote for people who will make the decisions, then these people should take a look at all the factors and make one.

      However this hasn't been working well, because of the Party system, and too many voters are getting stuck on party ideals and less on voting for the person who would take your interests at heart.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    11. Re:What? by slashdice · · Score: 5, Funny
      Like...

      Dear Mr. President, Please play lots of golf.

      Dear Mr. President, You seem overworked. Please take another vacation.

      Dear Mr. President, Please give another speech calling Republicans meanies.

      --
      Copyright (c) 1990 - 2014 Dice. All rights reserved. Use of this comment is subject to certain Terms and Conditions.
    12. Re:What? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      I'm no Obama hater but anyone who thinks that would ever be an effective way to influence policy is probably still sitting on the edge of their seat waiting for Firefly to come back on television.

      If you recognize that, then why aren't you an Obama hater? This is emblematic of Obama: make a great public show about being a man of the people, and then surreptitiously ignore them.

      I.e., he's playing us all for saps.

    13. Re:What? by Xenx · · Score: 1

      I'm sure it's still coming! I keep hearing stuff about Netflix looking to bring it back...

    14. Re:What? by thaylin · · Score: 1

      HE was asked to say it, HE did not actually say it. The point of the article is that they wish HE would have strongly asked CONGRESS to intervene, not create an executive order.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    15. Re:What? by thaylin · · Score: 1

      I wish more people would get this. All those who blame "activist judges" for ruling unconstitutional laws unconstitutional just because it was voted on by a direct democracy on the ballot make me weep in bed for this country.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    16. Re:What? by gandhi_2 · · Score: 0, Troll

      The point of the article is that 138,469 wished they lived in a kingdom with a benevolent dictator who can simply make people do stuff because they want it.

    17. Re:What? by internerdj · · Score: 1

      I don't know, but I think a libertarian just got his wings.

    18. Re:What? by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      No Death Star so I tried to Kickstarter one.. how the hell do I exploit this for lols?

      When you build it, point it at Washington. ;-)

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    19. Re:What? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Lazy government contractors didn't even bother to install blast shielding with the ray shielding.

    20. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. The ray shielding had a 24 month lead time. The emperor said he was fine with the wait as long as we got to the gold plated toilet seat off the throne room.

    21. Re:What? by thaylin · · Score: 1

      That is your opinion of what it was about. The vast majority of those seem to want him to get congress to act, because you know congress has their own petition side for them to use. In fact you may be sad to here that there is nothing in the petition that asks for him to sign an executive order or rule that states cannot do this.. I know it is hard to believe.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    22. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I here by declare that everyone should keep on doing what they are doing. Thank you for your unconditional love.

      (btw... captcha was incest... wtf)

    23. Re:What? by msauve · · Score: 1

      Odd, that regulating Interstate Commerce, the rarely used legitimate purpose of the Commerce Clause, should be criticized as an extension of government power.

      Also strange that your criticism is completely ass-backwards, since the request was that states not be able to exclude competition, and the status quo is what you're complaining about.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    24. Re:What? by roman_mir · · Score: 5, Interesting

      But this would be the first time that a petition would actually demand that the USA federal government actually does what it is SUPPOSED to do, to force the USA government actually to apply the interstate commerce law correctly.... This is what the interstate commerce clause is meant for: use federal power to force States to stop anti-business practices that hurt businesses and people when States attempt to destroy competition by preventing businesses and people from engaging in interstate commerce. States are not supposed to be able to prevent businesses and individuals from competing with one another, that is the purpose of the federal interstate commerce law. Not to force people to buy products that they would not buy without government force applied to them by to prevent States from destroying free market capitalism, to prevent States from denying competition.

      Of-course forever now the federal government and States engaged in anti-competitive practices that they accuse businesses of, which in reality are the product of the government corruption and collusion. Mandating and requiring business licenses for people to engage in commerce is the anti-competitive practice that needs to be stopped. Mandating and requiring that businesses abide by government rules and regulations is the anti-competitive practice that needs to be stopped. Income taxes are not only a horrible economic policy, it is also a way to segregate businesses into those, that have access to government officials and those that cannot compete because they are not getting special treatment.

      Basically this petition is the first petition that I hear about that actually demands the USA government to behave Constitutionally where it concerns trade and business and individual freedoms. Of-course the government will pay 0 attention to it.

    25. Re:What? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      People get mad at activist judges when they carry an obvious bias and look for any opportunity to work it into law.

    26. Re:What? by thaylin · · Score: 1

      No they get mad at them when a ruling does not go their way, such as rulings holding gay marriage bans unconstitutional, even though it is definitively discrimination .

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    27. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Asking asking congress to intervene, even asking them "strongly", has about the same chance of success as my asking my grandmother to make me pancakes for breakfast. Oh, by the way, my grandmother is dead.

    28. Re:What? by sconeu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Thank you. For once, this would be a legitimate use of the Interstate Commerce Clause.

      Clearly, this *is* the purview of Congress, not the President, but all that the White House needs to do to make the petitioners happy is have one of its pet Congresscritters introduce legislation.

      It seems to me that the state regulations banning such sales are an intrusion upon the prerogatives of Congress.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    29. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you seen what big life has done Mal? I don't think he could survive on Serenity anymore.

    30. Re:What? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, that's the problem with Death Stars, they're not exactly the most "accurate" of instruments. If you want to nuke Washington, you have to wipe out the planet.

      Hey, I don't say that it ain't worth it!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    31. Re:What? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I bet it was in the blueprint, just some beancounter decided that the system could do without and that would lower cost by a few cents.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    32. Re:What? by omnichad · · Score: 0

      if your president decides who sells what, where, when, and how... you aren't free.

      "If your president..." - that's the only part I agree with.

      Don't forget that you aren't free when you live in a society with a government. Freedom involves giving up some personal freedoms. For example, for my neighbors to be free to breathe clean air, my coal power plant's emissions are regulated. That is a government limiting personal freedoms for the greater freedom of all.

      In the case of car dealers, they offer little of value, and should not be a required part of a car purchase. But you can't make a blanket statement that regulating commerce = evil.

    33. Re:What? by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

      Well, that's the problem with Death Stars, they're not exactly the most "accurate" of instruments. If you want to nuke Washington, you have to wipe out the planet.

      Hey, I don't say that it ain't worth it!

      maybe he could just graze the surface of the planet firing tangentially to the earth?

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
    34. Re:What? by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      It seems like the FTC or the DOJ could address this by going after the car dealership cartels.

    35. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But this would be the first time that a petition would actually demand that the USA federal government actually does what it is SUPPOSED to do

      Indeed, this is the first time. Don't ever buy into the idea that Americans were ever brave or free, or that the US government followed its stated principles in the past. It didn't in the 19th century. It didn't in the 20th, and it's certainly not doing it now.

      The idea that liberty and capitalism was what made America great is a giant lie. The US was just another Imperialist power like the European nations before it. It rose to power not because of voluntary mutually beneficial trade between free thinking people. It rose to power because it conquered, killed, stole, and was victorious in wars.

      Given that, it is silly to appeal to the US Constitution. It's as silly as appealing to the North Korean Constitution, which also says there's protection for freedom of expression, amongst other rights. So what? Nobody bothered to adhere to it before. They're not going to start now.

    36. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      #thanksobama

    37. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who gives a shit? An elaborate joke-response to a joke petition does not make up for bullshit-responses to serious petitions.

    38. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [[This is what the interstate commerce clause is meant for:]]

      Cynic's view: this is what the interstate commerce clause SAYS it is meant for. It's meant for how the people in charge use it.

    39. Re:What? by Infiniti2000 · · Score: 1

      It's pure opinion of what's a joke petition and what isn't. If you say the death star is a joke petition and there's no frivolous determination of such petitions, then either the administration can arbitrarily choose or perhaps just treat them all as jokes. I think the response to the Tesla petition is fine. The administration should do nothing on this, not because I don't care but looking at it from their perspective, it's not worth it. It's a hugely problematic, very inflammatory discussion to talk about taking away state rights in favor of federal rights. The white house should pick their battles on that and this is certainly not one of them. So, while Tesla may be less of a joke petition than the Death Star, it's still a joke petition.

    40. Re:What? by jklovanc · · Score: 0

      States are not supposed to be able to prevent businesses and individuals from competing with one another, that is the purpose of the federal interstate commerce law.

      First, there is no such thing as the "federal interstate commerce law". It is the Commerce Clause in the United States Constitution. Here is the actual Clause;

      [The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

      It can easily be argued that the sale of a vehicle pertains to one State and is not Commerce among several States. Had the States required a local dealership and then denied a dealership license then that would be anti competitive. That is not what happened. If Tesla wanted to they could open dealerships in every state but they chose not to. I think that requiring a local dealership is a stupid and archaic idea but it is a State issue to be decided by the State and not interstate commerce.

      You really need to know what anti competitive means. It means an un-level playing field where one entity had special rights over other entities in the same market. Requiring anyone who sells a new car to have a local dealership is a law that every new car seller has to comply with and therefore not anti-competitive. Your next paragraph is just ludicrous. Lets look at your statements one by one.

      .Mandating and requiring business licenses for people to engage in commerce is the anti-competitive practice that needs to be stopped

      If all companies need to have the same license and the licenses are fairly given then it is not anti competitive. It is a way of dealing with companies that break laws and deal with the public unfairly. It is also a way of knowing who is responsible for the businesses as their names are on the licenses.

      Mandating and requiring that businesses abide by government rules and regulations is the anti-competitive practice that needs to be stopped.

      Again, if evenly applied rules and regulations are not anti competitive. They also protect our environment and the consumer. Do you really want our food produced with no regulations? How would recalls be enforced without regulations? Do you really want industry to be able to spew any pollutant they want into the environment? What is there to stop them without government rules and regulations.

      Income taxes are not only a horrible economic policy, it is also a way to segregate businesses into those, that have access to government officials and those that cannot compete because they are not getting special treatment.

      First income tax is a personal tax not a business tax. Second business tax law is based on industry sectors and not specific businesses therefore different taxes for different business sectors. If business taxes are applied evenly it is not anti competitive.

      The idea of no licences, no rules/regulations and not business taxes is completely unworkable.Try to be a bit realistic.

    41. Re:What? by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      > This is what the interstate commerce clause is meant for: use federal power to force States to stop anti-business practices that hurt businesses and people when States attempt to destroy competition by preventing businesses and people from engaging in interstate commerce.

      What?! No. Clearly you haven't been paying attention. "Interstate Commerce" means that if I grow wheat in my back yard and eat it, *that* is interstate commerce.

      See? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...

      I don't know what kind of crazy English language you are speaking there, buddy.

    42. Re:What? by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >The idea that liberty and capitalism was what made America great is a giant lie. The US was just another Imperialist power like the European nations before it.

      America was a very half-hearted Imperialist power, that just got into the game in the Philippines because all the cool kids were doing it. (Seriously - read some of the primary sources of the time in regards to McKinley and Funston.) America was much better about not keeping other countries after we conquer them than pretty much anyone else in the world.

      Is Cuba an American state?

      Iraq?

      Germany?

      You think Germany would have given back any of the other countries it overran?

      No?

      So you're wrong.

      > It rose to power not because of voluntary mutually beneficial trade between free thinking people. It rose to power because it conquered, killed, stole, and was victorious in wars.

      All countries, at some level, are founded on the right of conquest. What made the Aztecs have any more right to the land than the Spanish?

      America's *strength* though, really was based on being an economic powerhouse of industry and trade. Look at the GDP of America in WWII and compare it with the USSR (whom it sounds like you would just love to pieces).

    43. Re:What? by tsqr · · Score: 1

      Not all popular idea's will go out or should go out, just because the majority wills it.

      Or, as Edmund Burke put it back in the late 18th century, "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgement; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion."

    44. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a legal issue here: the executive can't just wave state law aside. But they could suggest Congress write new laws instead of just noting that Congress would need to take action.

      As you pointed out to things I was thinking, A, these petitions are demands from the people, not get on your knees and beg petitions, or get on your knees and pray for a miracle, B, the federal government has (illegal) abusive power in overriding states laws, if Tesla wants to get any traction on changes or overriding the political idiots that are bought and paid for, then your going to have to find a way to make friends and allies with the Feds.

      If your rich enough you can already buy vehicles directly from the major manufactures without the need for a dealership. So the jack-off "Dealers Association" needs to get the bullshit straight before trying to ruin another car company over something that should have been done years ago, direct sales. I go back to the same thing with DeLorean, he didn't want unions involved with his cars, as well as others influencing his company. You can say whatever you want over the FBI's entrapment operation to nail DeLorean for being a "drug dealer" but they found a way to ruin a guy that had a solid vision. And your seeing it all over again with Tesla.

      And dont be mistaken between Unions having literally a 3rd world dictator influence on politics, car manufactures, the dealers association, ect, there's more then enough power and money to buy off political influence to use the FBI in order set-up and or ruin anyone.

    45. Re:What? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      It's worth a shot. Even if it goes wrong and makes the planet blow up.

      Then again, why bother, we're working hard on it anyway.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    46. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you read the response? It's great.

      https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/isnt-petition-response-youre-looking

      "Why would we spend countless taxpayer dollars on a Death Star with a fundamental flaw that can be exploited by a one-man starship?"

      So your cousin, uncle, sisters can become millionaires building it. Why else does big government do something?

    47. Re:What? by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      Not unless there is statute authorizing them to do so, which currently, there isn't... Which is why the response said Congress needs to pass one.
      I'm torn on whether or not he should have someone introduce legislation though, since that could very well backfire into a highly partisan war the second the house critters heard of it.

    48. Re:What? by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      Would he? He seems pretty anti-imperialist. The USSR, regardless of what its propaganda told its citizens, was most definitely imperialist.

    49. Re:What? by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      They've got a cave troll.

    50. Re:What? by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      People forget that the United States is a Democracy (our people vote for government), and a Republic (we no king.)
      Great Britain is also a Democracy, though a Monarchy instead of a Republic.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...

      It bugs the hell out of me when people say "The US is a republic, not a democracy!". It's non-sensical crazy babble.

    51. Re:What? by pablo_max · · Score: 1

      Wait...they are bringing firefly back?? Are you serious? I cannot wait!! Finally I have something to look forward to.

    52. Re:What? by ignavus · · Score: 1

      The Death Star proved that. Overwhelming support. Brushed under the rug. This administration is a joke.

      They should have asked Tesla to build Death Stars ... and let them sell those direct to the public. Kill two birds with one stone.

      --
      I am anarch of all I survey.
    53. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      America was a very half-hearted Imperialist power

      Claiming to be a lesser evil doesn't mean you aren't evil.

      America was much better about not keeping other countries after we conquer them than pretty much anyone else in the world.

      So? The point of imperialism is, from wiki, "an unequal human and territorial relationship, usually in the form of an empire, based on ideas of superiority and practices of dominance, and involving the extension of authority and control of one state or people over another."

      It is usually an empire, not always. You can create unequal relationships without outright taking over.

      So no, I'm not wrong. You were presenting a false dilemma.

      All countries, at some level, are founded on the right of conquest.

      And America's level of conquest and violence is a lot higher than what people realize or like to admit. As roman_mir pointed out, this is the first time he has seen people asked for something that aligns with the US's stated principles.

      America's *strength* though, really was based on being an economic powerhouse of industry and trade.

      And that economy was built on unequal relationships. Chase off the Indians. Enslave the blacks. Exploit cheap immigrant labor. Doesn't contradict my point.

      Look at the GDP of America in WWII and compare it with the USSR (whom it sounds like you would just love to pieces)

      Another false dilemma. I criticize America, and that automatically means I'm rooting for the commies?

    54. Re:What? by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      Actually, it turns out that the DOJ did do this. After coming back to the Slashdot discussion I see some other posters providing links to the DOJ's actions. Hunt around the discussion and you will find it. Clearly it wasn't enough though.

    55. Re:What? by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      All I see is DOJ advocacy of direct sales: http://www.justice.gov/atr/pub...
      And the DOJ suing some dealerships under the Equal Credit Opportunity Act: http://www.justice.gov/atr/pub...

      It sounds like they're doing what they can, which is nice... that is their job, after all.. But I'm still pretty sure they lack the power to do anything about this until they're authorized to intervene by some statute empowered by the Commerce Clause.

    56. Re:What? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      That is why I stated we are a Democratic Republic.

      Just just a republic, or a democracy. It is a mixture of both.
      A full democracy will be about us voting for every decision the government makes.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    57. Re:What? by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      And you're right- I just wanted to dispel the idea that representative democracy is somehow a sub-form of Democracy. It's not. What you're calling "full democracy" is direct democracy. Both forms are a full democracy.

      There's been a lot of people yelling that we're not a democracy lately, and it makes me cringe, because it's usually done by people trying to justify laws that haven't been struck down yet that still favor oppression from when they were the majority. Sure we're not a direct democracy, but who the hell is? We have aspects of direct democracy incorporated into many of our state constitutions, though, and people should never be discouraged from thinking their votes matter. Otherwise, we get into situations like today, where people think they don't matter. And in the case of Democracy, if you think they don't matter, they don't.

  3. For us dummies.... by AudioEfex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ....can someone briefly summarize like we are in third grade (OK, maybe junior high) why Tesla can't sell their vehicles anywhere they damn well please? I don't follow car news so I don't know (and I'm asking here because I figure I am not the only one).

    1. Re:For us dummies.... by Andrew+Sterian · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not an easy read but a good backgrounder on this, which also seems to be a Department of Justice advocation of direct manufacturer sales:

      http://www.justice.gov/atr/pub...

    2. Re:For us dummies.... by Motard · · Score: 1

      Most states, prodded perhaps by dealer associations, have forbidden auto manufacturers from selling directly to the public. New York, Ohio and Texas have been among the most prominent battlegrounds so far.

    3. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Short and only mostly inaccurate summary, the dealerships currently in place have essentially a monopoly protecting them. GM, Ford, etc. don't sell cars to the public. They sell them to dealerships who move them. The dealerships are essentially middle management and they see that their entire existence is threatened if somebody figures out that they can build a car and sell it to somebody without them being involved and making a lot of money.

    4. Re:For us dummies.... by Russ1642 · · Score: 0
    5. Re:For us dummies.... by Raseri · · Score: 5, Informative

      Car dealerships form extremely powerful lobbies in most (all?) states, and have purchased laws in most (all?) states banning the direct sale of vehicles from the manufacturer to the consumer. This, obviously, is a protectionist racket that serves no purpose but to line the pockets of said dealers. I'm not aware of any other consumer good with such a restriction (though I will grant that such a thing is possible and I simply am not aware of it).

      --
      Writhe your naked ass to the mindless groove.
    6. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Car dealerships in many, many areas within the US have gotten laws passed to protect themselves from the manufacturer competing with them by doing exactly what Tesla is doing: selling direct. The laws force the manufacturer to sell to customers through the dealerships.

    7. Re:For us dummies.... by dunkindave · · Score: 2

      Traditional car companies see Tesla as a threat. They see Tesla is using a different sales model, namely that Tesla sells their cars directly to the consumer instead of using a dealership, and then the big guys use this difference to try and block Tesla from selling cars by influencing state legislatures (with things like money) to pass laws that say new cars can only be be sold through a franchised car dealership, not directly. The car companies know that all the new US car companies in the last century that have tried to enter market using dealership have failed for a few reasons, but one big one is that the new guy is too small so the dealership is one that would handle multiple brands, and as the new unproven line, the cars don't get pushed, so wither and die. That is what the big manufacturers want, for Tesla to fail, and they are paying their lawmakers to create laws to make Tesla's job impossible.

    8. Re:For us dummies.... by rdtripp · · Score: 1

      Most states have laws regulating car dealers that make it difficult and expensive to open a new dealership. You also must be a dealer to sell new cars. A manufacturer, by law, must sell through a dealer and cannot sell directly to the consumer. The status quo is reinforced by dealers associations in each state (and nationally) that spend lots of money on lobbying to keep the current system intact. Tesla wants to sell direct and bypass the dealers. The dealers are fighting this tooth and nail.

    9. Re:For us dummies.... by geekmux · · Score: 1

      ....can someone briefly summarize like we are in third grade (OK, maybe junior high) why Tesla can't sell their vehicles anywhere they damn well please? I don't follow car news so I don't know (and I'm asking here because I figure I am not the only one).

      I'm still struggling to understand why this is a problem with the current offering from Tesla.

      I've seen Tesla cars on the road in my state, so we can safely assume DOT has authorized them for US road use, and therefore are legal to drive in any state.

      Given that fact, I seriously doubt that anyone who can afford a $100,000 Tesla really has a problem transporting themselves to pick up said car, regardless of limited dealership locations.

      Hasn't really seemed to hurt Tesla sales so far. Doesn't hurt the likes of Ferrari or Lamborghini. You sure as hell don't find those dealerships in every state.

      Now, when the $30,000 Tesla comes along, it might be a bit of a different story. Then again, we'll be talking about game changers by then, and this political battlefield will become a lot more active.

    10. Re:For us dummies.... by tysonedwards · · Score: 1

      Technically, it is because laws are on the books to require that only parties that are approved by the State legislatures be authorized to sell, dismantle, repair, or license new or used vehicles in a commercial, for profit setting. Some states went in and made laws to govern Dealerships themselves as being "third parties" from the manufacturers themselves to promote competition and reduce pricing collusion between Dealerships within a geographic region. Sure, the Manufacturer still sets MSRP and even the price at which the Dealership buys the vehicle, but in those states those Dealerships need to operate independently from the Manufacturer to prevent them from artificially limiting supply of products that may sell better but have lower margins to drive people towards higher margin purchases or other non-defined but considered sleazy business practices that make serial killers look like saints compared to the average car salesman.

      Basically, think of it like the eBook fiasco that has been going on. Apple let the Publishers set an MSRP versus Amazon saying "everything only costs this price, regardless of writer, content, or what you charge us." Apple's giving Publishers more control over pricing of their products on a minute by minute basis allowed them to increase their pricing for their products while preventing customers from being able to purchase a fungible product at a similar price point as they were able to do previously.

      Or on the flip side, Amazon is going in and telling people "nope, you aren't allowed to buy this new title from us because we choose not to sell it to you, but you can buy this completely different product that is more lucrative for us instead", effectively using their customers as pawns against a publisher to negotiate more lucrative terms.

      Neither are really directly comparable, but that is as close a comparison as I can find at this time. More of a "let's push through some laws years ago to protect us from some of these horror stories that our friends of friends of friends told us about dealing with a bad used car salesman."

      --
      Thirty four characters live here.
    11. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      tldr; State laws funded by old car companies.

    12. Re:For us dummies.... by thaylin · · Score: 1

      It depends, my city does not pay for paving streets, all roads are owned by the state.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    13. Re:For us dummies.... by Sechr+Nibw · · Score: 1

      I'd imagine one of the biggest factors/problems/differences between buying out-of-state Ferraris/Lamborghinis and out-of-state Teslas is the fact that you can refuel the Ferrari or Lamborghini basically anywhere along the way back to your state. The Tesla? Not so much. You either need to plan charging stops, or get it towed/hauled to within X miles of your home (where X depends on the model of Tesla, obviously).

    14. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There were also similar problems with alcohol which is why alcohol distribution is so fucked up, too

      That's an odd way to say "religiously motivated out-dated puritan worldview". Do you really think you can't buy alcohol on Sunday in colorado because the distilleries were muscling the grocery stores?

    15. Re:For us dummies.... by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Sales tax would still come from direct sales.

      A sane local politician changing the laws to allow direct sales would be freeing him or herself from the shackled of this powerful lobby and would not be losing any revenue.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    16. Re:For us dummies.... by Straif · · Score: 2

      The issue is Tesla is not the limited number of Tesla dealerships, it's that Tesla's business model doesn't include ANY dealerships.

      You don't go to a dealer to look at a Tesla and then order one after a long draw out conversation about pricing, you go to the Tesla website and custom build the car you want and order it. Even their brick and mortar locations (more likely a mall kiosk) are generally only information booth style setups to direct people to their website to complete the ordering process.

      They don't have dealerships and don't want them but many states have laws specifically outlawing direct sales of cars with no real justification except that allowing direct sales would hurt existing dealerships. For Tesla to sell a car legally in those states they would have to introduce a 3rd party to open up a franchised Tesla dealership, a cost and hindrance that really adds nothing to the customer. If you happen to live on one of those states (and the list is growing), you would need to set up a mailing address in another direct sales friendly state to legally order the car you want, which is ridiculous.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    17. Re:For us dummies.... by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Traditional car companies see Tesla as a threat..

      That's the biggest problem/misconception about the whole debate. These laws were put in place well before Tesla ever existed. Any car company, regardless of name or technology, has always had to deal them. Direct sales itself is the threat. If people want change, they need to get off of the notion that this is about Tesla and learn a little more of the history behind the law. They need to listen carefully to those who make arguments in favor of these laws. Then you can make a rational case against it. Arguing it in the name of Tesla is a waste of air and a sign of, how should I put it kindly, a lack of insight.

      This is a passionate debate on Slashdot, but the average Joe could care less. Now, if the average Joe could be shown the benefits of buying his gas powered car, or any vehicle today, via direct sales, and there was a campaign to make that case, then progress on change might be made. Unfortunately, a majority of those passionate for change do little more that post on blogs. Based on that, I doubt much will happen.

    18. Re:For us dummies.... by slashdice · · Score: 1

      I was referring to the three tier alcohol distribution system.

      --
      Copyright (c) 1990 - 2014 Dice. All rights reserved. Use of this comment is subject to certain Terms and Conditions.
    19. Re:For us dummies.... by AudioEfex · · Score: 1

      Thanks to everyone who replied, makes sense now. :)

      And see what a nice informative discussion can be had when someone, gasp, on /. no less, admits to not knowing everything in the world? LOL. I knew I could probably figure it out with our friend google but also figured a lot of folks would wonder the same thing, which is why I asked.

      So it's a similar question to a lot of local vs. national/global issues. With a bit of the "movie studios can't own movie theaters" thrown in. On one hand, it keeps car dealers in business which is good for the local economy (I never really stopped to think about the ownership issue, I just assumed they had some type of franchise arrangement with the brands they sold since most seem to specialize), but on the other, it's a middle-man jacking up the prices by force of law.

      The below has given me a lot to think about - part of me wants to say "well, if the manufacturers move in and sell themselves, they will still have to pay local taxes, so sorry Charlie," but on the other hand...giving car makers complete control over the supply chain could have ramifications as well. Why couldn't it be an easy question like "Star Wars - Prequels, or OT"? ;)

      Thanks /. !

    20. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sales tax would still come from direct sales.

      You appear to be less than familiar with direct sales and out-of-state purchases. If I order a car from Tesla Corp. in Santa Monica, CA and they ship it to me, then [closest city with a dealership] is certainly not getting any sales tax unless I live in California.

    21. Re:For us dummies.... by thaylin · · Score: 1

      Incorrect. Your sales tax is due in the state that you reside, not the state the purchase takes place in, and your car tax in particular is going to go to your county, under registration.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    22. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the third-grade brains who cannot be bothered to google some of this stuff for themselves:

      In the nascent days of the car business, there were issues and concerns about car dealers being subsumed or replaced by direct sale from and stores owned by car manufacturers. This was back when anti-trust, etc. were still meaningful issues dealt with in a not-so-pro-business fashion.

      So, the states all set up various versions of "franchise" laws for car dealerships, enshrining the car dealer & service business models of selling cars and prohibiting the car manufacturers from owning their own stores. Sure, some of the benefit for the consumer of these laws is that new-sale car dealers also have to service what they sell, and dealers have to be able to handle warranty and recall work (I believe this is primarily set up at the federal level). Also, the dealerships can set their own pricing models independent of guidelines from the manufacturers or each other. But the main benefit was to the dealerships not having to compete with the manufacturers to sell cars, and for example, it allows/does not prevent dealerships in the middle of nowhere, like Dave Smith Motors in Kellogg, ID, to aggressively sell trucks at a price point much lower than Portland, Seattle or Boise dealers (and then they make up for it in volume)...

      To put it in iPhone sales terms, if iPhones were like cars, then Apple stores would not be legal (the legal mechanisms prohibiting manufacturer-owned stores are mostly state laws, not federal), nor would directly ordering iPhones from Apple.com be legal (federal laws).

      Tesla wants to break down the traditional car-selling business model, arguing that their cars do not necessarily need the service network support that regular cars have, either.

      From the consumer level, it'd be best of Tesla were able to carve out an exception. But those exceptions will eventually be leveraged by the regular car manufacturers as well, too. The dealerships do not want to be moved away from their feed trough (and they've been working on keeping their place there for a long time), even though I believe it's been said that many of them make more money from their service departments than car sales...

    23. Re:For us dummies.... by czmax · · Score: 1

      Planet Money has had some good discussions about this:
      http://www.npr.org/blogs/money...

      If I recall the tl;dr version it goes something like this:
      Automakers screwed dealers during the great depression so the dealers ran for legislative cover. Dealers now make lots of money and pay lots of taxes so they have maintained that cover ever since. And now are the ones screwing everybody else.

    24. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This means that if they went away, everyone in the state would have millions more dollars that they could spend on goods and services locally. Or perhaps on buying a better car.... which would also be taxed by the state.

      I would (pedantically) point out the firemen and streetlights will be paid by the city, who don't collect sales taxes.

      Almost any argument of "xxx pays taxes, therefore it should exist" is silly. If the money weren't required to be spent there, then everyone would spend it elsewhere to improve the local business economy. Your argument is a crock...

    25. Re:For us dummies.... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Could someone point out how this protectionist action fits into our alleged "free" market?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    26. Re:For us dummies.... by dunkindave · · Score: 2

      The problem with your description is that some of the laws Tesla is now fighting are recent legislation or regulations. For example, in New Jersey, the regulation prohibiting Tesla from performing direct sales was only put in place on March 11, 2014 by the New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission (composed of political appointees of the Governor). Likewise in New York, they are looking at passing legislation to ban the way Tesla is selling vehicles.

      NY dealers have Tesla ban in sights

      It is/was legal but being made illegal. While aspects of the requirement of franchises may be in previous laws, Tesla built their model to comply with those laws, so the dealership associations are having their paid stooges rewrite the laws to block Tesla.

    27. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not all states handle what happens with sales tax in the same way, so you can't make a generalized statement about how it will be distributed. What is likely is that when you register a car in a state that charges sales tax and you can't prove you paid some type of sales tax wherever you bought it, you will have to pay the registering state's rate at the time of registration. That assumes you don't have some type of exception, such as owning the car in the original state for some specified period of time. If there is a differential between rates and the registering state's is higher you might need to make up the difference. It all depends on the registering state's sales tax statutes. Your mileage may vary.

    28. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yep.... and back in the day when Ice was delivered to houses by delivery men guess who tried to outlaw the big bad freezer which was recently invented?

      Anyone heard of an ice delivery company that goes door to door anymore?

      Did you know those bastards actually tried passing a law to ban personal housing complexes from owning or operating a freezer? Thank god they didn't stop that source of innovation. I personally love being able to get ice directly from my freezer in the middle of the night. Or even make more ice for free by just pouring water into trays and then into my freezer.

      Can you believe that I don't have to pay anyone per ice cube anymore? I'm literally *stealing* the jobs away from hardworking ice delivery men. Or was this a non-issue that was mostly forgotten?

      Dealerships, you're next..... make your laws now before I can order a car directly from my living room while sitting in my underwear at 3am in the morning. Because I don't really need you just like we didn't really need ice delivery men once the refridgerator was invented.

    29. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This law has changed recently and the state where the delivery happens is where the tax is paid.

      Tesla would also be happy to set up a physical shop in your state if they were allowed (which they are not), and this is also very stupid.

    30. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because no other car manufacture is allowed to sell direct either. Why should Tesla get an advantage over everyone else?
       
      Also, I'm very much in favor of changing this rule. It seems a bit outdated.

    31. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here is a map of existing Tesla dealerships.

      http://www.teslamotors.com/en_CA/findus

      They want to set up more, but most states prohibit manufacturer-owned sales locations for cars.

    32. Re:For us dummies.... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Your sales tax is due in the state that you reside, not the state the purchase takes place in

      Interesting theory you have.

      When I buy something in Tennessee, I pay sales tax in TN, NOT in my state of residence. Likewise if I buy something in any other State.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    33. Re:For us dummies.... by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Good points, but its still about the sales model, and not about Tesla or the technology. If a new gas vehicle company tried the same approach, it would get the same reaction.

    34. Re:For us dummies.... by thaylin · · Score: 1

      What state do you live in? If you buy it in TN, and you live in NC you are required to claim that purchase on your taxes at the end of the year and pay state tax on that purchase. Same with Virginia and a host of other states. In fact I dont know any that charge the tax that does not require it.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    35. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because that would create unfair competion and hurt sales for used cars salesmen who sell used cars and dealerships that sale new cars.

    36. Re:For us dummies.... by Triklyn · · Score: 1

      :) glass steagall seemed outdated too. i'm unclear on what kind of can of worms this might open in terms of revenue and leverage.

    37. Re:For us dummies.... by Straif · · Score: 1

      And if you look at the links you'll notice they aren't dealerships at all. Some of the descriptions outright say you cannot buy cars there, just get information about the models to use when purchasing one online.

      You can buy Tesla T-shirts and hats though.

      Size and layout-wise they are closer to resembling the cellphone store in the mall below my office than a car dealership.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    38. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have follow-up question for "us dummies" to those that follow these issues closer... Is there a reason Tesla cannot create their own dealerships or work with existing auto dealerships to sell their cars? What is stopping Tesla from operating within the current laws, regardless of how stupid those laws may [or may not] be?

      They are already building charging stations all over the place, so I feel like building a few dealerships would be within their capabilities and probably should have been within their business plan from the start. I sympathesize for anyone dealing with inherently stupid laws and regulations, but Tesla had to know long ago that this would be an issue for them. Right?

    39. Re:For us dummies.... by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      Why would keeping car dealers in business be good for the local economy? The money that pays their commission comes out of the local economy. If they are not providing value (a point that I will not argue for or against right here), they are basically just an embodiment of the broken window fallacy.

    40. Re:For us dummies.... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      Size and layout-wise they are closer to resembling the cellphone store in the mall below my office than a car dealership.

      Out of curiosity, do they at least have a car or two you can test drive? Since there are only a couple models it wouldn't exactly take up much space, but I also can't imagine buying a car (especially an almost-six-figure car) without trying it out.

    41. Re:For us dummies.... by Straif · · Score: 1

      You can view the cars at some locations but I believe you have to schedule a test drive either at the location or online. I don't believe you can just show up and try one out like you can most cars at a regular dealerships.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    42. Re:For us dummies.... by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Traditional car companies see Tesla as a threat

      No, they really don't. Tesla's a small luxury car manufacturer, these come and go with depressing regularity.

      The car manufacturers are just as unhappy with the dealership system as Tesla is. The difference is that they're resigned to it, having worked with it for decades.

      Want to know one reason why Ford didn't go bust but GM did? GM's large number of brands meant it had more dealer agreements, and each cancelled dealer agreement was a lawsuit waiting to happen, so it ended up burdened with more brands and more dealers than it needed.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    43. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What fucking free market? How me the one free market in the US that has real economic pull and I'll prove all your "It'z teh Free MarketZZZ!!!!" bullshit wrong.
       
      Why don't fucking retards like you get it through your head? There isn't a major market in the US that isn't under US regulation. So stop crying about the free market because there isn't one.

    44. Re:For us dummies.... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      But ... but I learned that ... that we have that good and holy free market in America and that's why it is so much more powerful than that bad, bad planned economy of the failed commie states.

      You wanna say that school has lied to me? Along with the media? That's unpossible!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    45. Re:For us dummies.... by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      Touché. Wish I had mod points.. Nobody thinks of unintended consequences that follow giving powerful corporations more power.

    46. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For more blatant examples of purchased laws, one must look to the pharma/healthcare industries.

    47. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? Because YOU are too stupid to purchase a vehicle from a brochure, phone conversation, or internet browsing. I don't mean that as an accusation, but that's the logic behind it: consumer protection. It's to keep Tesla from screwing you. Since the "unintended consequence" is limiting competition, we should let you try to guess who lobbied for the regulation.

    48. Re:For us dummies.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The original purpose was to prevent vertical monopolies with car manufacturers owning the sales outlets. Same thing happened in movies (studios can't own theaters).

      Modern commerce appears to have moved beyond the need for these sort of protections. Let's reduce the legal overhead and repeal something!

  4. Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    "There's a legal issue here: the executive can't just wave state law aside. But they could suggest Congress write new laws instead of just noting that Congress would need to take action."

    Why not? He completely bypasses all laws and even our constitution using executive orders, why not for this? Oh, that's right, it would affect his dirty money income from industry lobbies.

    1. Re:Why not? by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, Obama is a terrible abuser of executive orders if you believe chain emails and talk radio.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    2. Re: Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He could suggest that the house eat a healthy breakfast an they would go hungry.
      Executive orders have limits. There is a difference between pushing a limit. And tring to rule by fiat.

      Note the states that have the limits.
      If the president tried to do something they would fight back.
      So the current state of nothing continues.

    3. Re:Why not? by hesiod · · Score: 1

      And, of course, if Obama suggests congress do something reasonable, they're CERTAINLY not going to wave their arms and scream about what a terrible idea it is, and how it would turn our country into a Socialist state...

    4. Re:Why not? by thaylin · · Score: 2

      Can you cite the problem ones? I am genuinly interested. The only one people ever seem to want to cite is the ACA delay one, which seems like prosecutional discretion to me.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    5. Re:Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is easy to make bold claims when you don't provide a falsifiable argument.

    6. Re:Why not? by Straif · · Score: 1

      I guess we'll have to wait and see if that day ever arrives.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    7. Re:Why not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First off, an Executive Order is a specific document with a special title and a number.
      The Executive can also issue directions, rules, regulations, guidance, and anything else they want - and still prosecute your ass if you don't obey. But those aren't Executive Orders.

      In the case of the ACA, the law is very clear - a fixed enrollment period, fixed requirements for subsidies, fixed requirements for employers, etc. By not enforcing those terms of the law, the President is ignoring it and replacing ones he prefers. It isn't discretion, either, when you exclude all members of a class (rather than a case-by-case basis).

      Would you accept President Strom Thurmond using "Prosecutorial Discretion" as a reason not to prosecute the KKK when they start committing genocide against blacks?

    8. Re:Why not? by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Also the ones where he appointed people to positions without Congressional approval, because without people in the positions the government agency could not operate and Republicans didn't like those agencies and was withholding nominations to effectively cripple them.

      But really, the ones that go "too far" are simply the orders that Obama has signed. The fact that he signed them makes them automatically disastrous power grabs by an out of control executive bent on total domination. They need a return to the careful and thoughtful exercise of executive power we saw under George W.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
  5. Can't wave law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Since when has law, state or otherwise, stopped Obama? Constitution? Nah...He knows better...Obamacare mandates? ( his own fucking law)...nah...its an election year. Drug laws? Nah we won't enforce em. Seriously. No matter what side of the isle you're on and if you like the laws or not, the fact that he picks and chooses what to enforce completely undermines the whole idea of "rule of law". The man is the biggest crony Ive ever seen.

    1. Re:Can't wave law? by thaylin · · Score: 2

      Since when has law, state or otherwise, stopped Obama? Constitution? Nah...He knows better...Obamacare mandates? ( his own fucking law)...nah...its an election year.

      seems like prosecutional discretion to me

      Drug laws? Nah we won't enforce em.

      heard of prohibition? To me drug laws are the same as it, they should be prohibition, so I like to think of him not enforcing them because they are unconstitutional.

      Seriously. No matter what side of the isle you're on and if you like the laws or not, the fact that he picks and chooses what to enforce completely undermines the whole idea of "rule of law". The man is the biggest crony Ive ever seen.

      Not really.. If law A is unconstitutional, and law B is not, then picking to enforce law B but not law A is the proper thing to do to enforce the constitutional rule of law we have.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    2. Re:Can't wave law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't for obama to decide. Thats the supreme courts discretion, not the executives. Have you taken a civics class? Or are were you too busy sucking obamas dick.

    3. Re:Can't wave law? by thaylin · · Score: 1

      So you dont want cops and prosecutors to have discretion on things, such as if you can be let off with a warning when you get a speeding ticket? The SCOTUS job is to rule in unconstitutional, but US law states that you have no legal requirement to uphold/follow illegal laws/orders. Or in your civics class did the people in the SCOTUS cases still go to jail after they invalidated the law?

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    4. Re:Can't wave law? by LordLimecat · · Score: 0

      o I like to think of him not enforcing them because they are unconstitutional.

      Did you skip the day in civics where they went over how the 3 branch system works? It is not in the executive branch's purview to determine what laws are constitutional-- that belongs solely to the judicial branch. The executive is charged with enforcing the law, running our military, and executing foreign policy-- nothing more.

      A president who decides to ignore some laws and pretend thats executive discretion is on incredibly shakey ground; it undermines the whole foundation of the legislative branch's power. You seem to think its OK to just put the powers of both the judicial and legislative branches squarely in the president's hand, at which point you have created a dictatorship.

      Not really.. If law A is unconstitutional, and law B is not, then picking to enforce law B but not law A is the proper thing to do to enforce the constitutional rule of law we have.

      Incorrect. The proper thing to do is to bring a lawsuit before the courts to have the law struck down, and in the meantime fulfill the constitutional duty of enforcing said law.

    5. Re:Can't wave law? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      but US law states that you have no legal requirement to uphold/follow illegal laws/orders.

      Laws are legal until they are struck down by a court. Executive branch officials do not have that power-- judicial review is a judicial power.

    6. Re:Can't wave law? by thaylin · · Score: 1

      Incorrect, unconstitutional laws are not valid legal laws. If a law is unconstitutional it is void from the moment it is passed, not from the moment the courts rule it so.

      16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256:

      The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute, to be valid, must be In agreement. It is impossible for both the Constitution and a law violating it to be valid; one must prevail. This is succinctly stated as follows:

      The General rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of it's enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it. An unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed. Such a statute leaves the question that it purports to settle just as it would be had the statute not been enacted.

      Since an unconstitutional law is void, the general principles follow that it imposes no duties, confers no rights, creates no office, bestows no power or authority on anyone, affords no protection, and justifies no acts performed under it.....

      A void act cannot be legally consistent with a valid one. An unconstitutional law cannot operate to supersede any existing valid law. Indeed, insofar as a statute runs counter to the fundamental law of the lend, it is superseded thereby.

      No one Is bound to obey an unconstitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it.

      Strictly speaking, an unconstitutional statute is not a "law", and should not be called a "law", even if it is sustained by a court, for a finding that a statute or other official act is constitutional does not make it so, or confer any authority to anyone to enforce it.

      All citizens and legal residents of the United States, by their presence on the territory of the United States, are subject to the militia duty, the duty of the social compact that creates the society, which requires that each, alone and in concert with others, not only obey the Constitution and constitutional official acts, but help enforce them, if necessary, at the risk of one's life.

      Any unconstitutional act of an official will at least be a violation of the oath of that official to execute the duties of his office, and therefore grounds for his removal from office. No official immunity or privileges of rank or position survive the commission of unlawful acts. If it violates the rights of individuals, it is also likely to be a crime, and the militia duty obligates anyone aware of such a violation to investigate it, gather evidence for a prosecution, make an arrest, and if necessary, seek an indictment from a grand jury, and if one is obtained, prosecute the offender in a court of law.

      http://www.constitution.org/us...

      The executive branch is under no obligation to uphold laws that are believed to be unconstitutional

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    7. Re:Can't wave law? by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      A president who decides to ignore some laws and pretend thats executive discretion is on incredibly shakey ground; it undermines the whole foundation of the legislative branch's power.

      Show me a single president in the last 200 years of our country that had the resources to actively enforce ALL Federal laws. And then it would only be fair if they enforced them equally against all individuals. You want a police state? There's one for the grabbing.

      I'd accuse you of holding this particular President to a higher standard than any other, but since I don't attribute to malice that which can be easily explained by stupidity, I'll make an exception in your case.

      --
      That is all.
    8. Re:Can't wave law? by thaylin · · Score: 1

      Did you skip the day in civics where they went over how the 3 branch system works? It is not in the executive branch's purview to determine what laws are constitutional-- that belongs solely to the judicial branch. The executive is charged with enforcing the law, running our military, and executing foreign policy-- nothing more.

      A president who decides to ignore some laws and pretend thats executive discretion is on incredibly shakey ground; it undermines the whole foundation of the legislative branch's power. You seem to think its OK to just put the powers of both the judicial and legislative branches squarely in the president's hand, at which point you have created a dictatorship.

      You are correct, it is congresses job to prove that the law is constitution. Under the Us courts jurisprudence the president is not obligated to obey any laws believed to be unconstitutional regardless of if a court has ruled them to be unconstitutional see :16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256: If you have some jurisprudence that counters this I would love to see it.

      Not really.. If law A is unconstitutional, and law B is not, then picking to enforce law B but not law A is the proper thing to do to enforce the constitutional rule of law we have.

      No, it is correct, and the proper thing to do is to not enforce it, as to enforce a law you know to be unconstitutional, regardless of if it is ruled so, would be the actual violating your constitutional duty.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    9. Re:Can't wave law? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      The problem with everything you posted is that the determination of whether a law is constitutional or not is a role relegated to the judicial branch, not the executive. If the executive branch merely needs to decide that something is unconstitutional to ignore it, it effectively neuters the legislative branch and impinges on the judicial.

      Strictly speaking, an unconstitutional statute is not a "law", and should not be called a "law", even if it is sustained by a court, for a finding that a statute or other official act is constitutional does not make it so, or confer any authority to anyone to enforce it.

      According to Marbury vs Madison, the courts ARE who decide what constitutes "Constitutional". If SCOTUS calls a particular brand of gun control constitutional, it is by definition constitutional until overturned by a later ruling.

      From the ruling (Chief Justice Marshall):

      It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.
      Those who apply the rule to particular cases, must of necessity expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each.

      Thus, if a court rules something "legal", it is by definition legal. Streetlaw seems to agree with me (emphasis added):

      ...Instead, he announced that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and established the Supreme Court as the final authority for interpreting it.

    10. Re:Can't wave law? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      The executive's duty under the constitution is to execute all laws passed by congress. Saying "thats not possible" or "noone's done it perfectly" does not change their duty under the constitution. Announcing publicly an intention to not enforce certain laws is a refusal to carry out that duty.

      I'd accuse you of holding this particular President to a higher standard than any other

      I dont think I mentioned any particular president, nor indicated what standard I hold others to. You're doing an awful lot of projecting.

    11. Re:Can't wave law? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      as to enforce a law you know to be unconstitutional, regardless of if it is ruled so, would be the actual violating your constitutional duty.

      I commented this elsewhere, but according to Justice Marshall in Marbury v Madison, the courts are the final authority on what is "constitutional". If they rule it constitutional, it becomes constitutional. Saying "the courts' ruling was constitutional" is a tautology-- it cannot not be true.

    12. Re:Can't wave law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, I really don't want cops having discretion on things. Probably not prosecutors, either. Cops having discretion leads to people (or classes of people) the cop doesn't like getting arrested and the cop's friends getting off.

    13. Re:Can't wave law? by thaylin · · Score: 1

      What I posted is not opinion, it is US court Jurisprudence. No one said the SCOTUS does not get the end decision and that if you violated a law that you thought was unconstitutional, but was not, you cannot be punished. The SCOTUS gets the final determination, not lower courts. You are misrepresenting what I said completely. I am not obligated to follow the law, but I run that risk if it is upheld.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    14. Re:Can't wave law? by thaylin · · Score: 1

      No it is not. It is his duty to, "take care that the laws be faithfully executed". However as stated before an unconstitutional law is not a law, and is viod the moment it is signed, unless affirmed by the SCOTUS. Ultimately the POTUS' job is to uphold the constitution. the President may not prevent a member of the executive branch from performing a ministerial duty lawfully imposed upon him by Congress. Notice that it uses the word lawfully.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    15. Re:Can't wave law? by thaylin · · Score: 1

      According to Marshall it is the SCOTUS that makes that final call.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    16. Re:Can't wave law? by Nehmo · · Score: 1

      heard of prohibition? To me drug laws are the same as it, they should be prohibition, so I like to think of him not enforcing them because they are unconstitutional.

      "not enforcing"? The Obama administration continues to enforce federal anti-drug laws. Obama has said he "wouldn't go that far" (Barbara Walters interview) , meaning he wouldn't be in favor of legalizing marijuana. But he has said that the federal government wouldn't use resources to go after people in states where it has been legalized except in cases of minor use, or cases of sales to people in states where it's still illegal. Obama is not pro-pot at all. He simply likes to straddle the fence politically to pretend he's a friend of people on both sides of the issue.

      If he were in favor of ending the prohibition, he would make statements to that effect. And he certainly could use the power of pardon to help many thousands of people.

      --
      (||) Nehmo (||)
    17. Re:Can't wave law? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      The only issue Im having with what your saying is that interpretation of the constitution is NOT anyones job but SCOTUS-- so how can the president make a "binding" decision on what laws are enforceable?

      I see the "lawfully"-- but if the POTUS has the power to determine a law is not lawful, doesnt that cross the "separation of powers" boundary? He all of a sudden has post-enactment veto power.

  6. State Rights by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "There's a legal issue here: the executive can't just wave state law aside."

    This is one of the funniest things I've seen in some time. This president has pushed the previous precedent to new heights - there is no such thing as state law except at the pleasure of the federal government. Today, there are no federal checks and balances that haven't been so warped out of shape that the checks are rubber stamps and the balances are "you let me do what I want and I'll balance that by making sure you're taken care of".

    1. Re:State Rights by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This whole board has turned into dipshits without bringing any facts or proof to the table - on EITHER side of the fence. You all sicken me.

    2. Re:State Rights by Straif · · Score: 2

      When you can't grow feed on your own farm to feed your own animals because somehow the Commerce Clause means that that's taking away some other farmers 'right' to sell you their feed you know the system is beyond screwed.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    3. Re:State Rights by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When some company says that the feed y9ou grow on your farm belongs to them, the system is beyond screwed.

  7. Not a shocker. by B33rNinj4 · · Score: 1

    The automotive industry wields a tremendous amount of power. It's not a surprise that they pushed to have Tesla squashed.

  8. Choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well if I had to choose between a Tesla and a Death Star, I would take the Death Star.

    1. Re:Choice by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Because of more leg room and the Killer Traffic Clearing Device?

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    2. Re:Choice by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      No exhaust port on the Tesla.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  9. Really Kids? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

    You kids are really still posting/signing petitions on the White House site?

    Even after several years of them all but telling us "this is purely for show, we will never honor any of the requests in these?"

    There's a point where the definition of insanity intersects with the definition of absolutely goddamn brainlessness. That point is, apparently, the We The People petition site.

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    1. Re:Really Kids? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe we should start a We The People petition to have Obama take the petitions more seriously.

    2. Re:Really Kids? by koreanbabykilla · · Score: 1

      You start it, I'll sign it.

  10. Pen & Phone by CWCheese · · Score: 1

    There's a legal issue here: the executive can't just wave state law aside.

    Really???? I thought the President said that all needs to make law he has in his hands : a pen and a phone.

    --
    Have a Day!
    1. Re:Pen & Phone by chill · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I thought...

      You keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

      You parroted without doing any sort of independent analysis or validation.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    2. Re:Pen & Phone by Straif · · Score: 0

      No, I'm pretty sure he was accurately paraphrasing Obama's declaration that he did not need to wait for the legislature to pass bills before he took executive actions to do whatever he wanted to do to further his agenda.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    3. Re:Pen & Phone by chill · · Score: 1

      Big talk and political posturing does not equal action. "if you don't stop bothering me I'll have my dad beat up your dad" isn't the equivalent of felony assault. It is talk.

      It is the explicit job of the executive to take action implementing legislative decree (laws). Many -- probably *most* -- of the laws have several vague parts that say "make it so", without any details. Frequently they're along the lines of "just do SOMETHING", giving a LOT of leeway to the actual implementation, allowing for all sorts of exemptions, delays and the ability to deal with unforeseen issues.

      Whenever you see things like "refusing to uphold the law" start thinking about "unfunded mandate". Congress says "do this -- but we aren't giving you money". You need to prioritize based on resource constraints.

      If 10,000 people come across the border, and I have 100 cops and limited court resources for due process where do I prioritize? Focus on the 10 year-olds looking for their mommy? Or the convicted felons and known violent offenders? They are NOT equal in the effort needed or resources consumed.

      So, again, [Citation Needed]. Please point to a specific example. The ONLY one I can think of that might be a violation of law is the trade of Bergdahl for the Guantanamo inmates. Maybe.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    4. Re:Pen & Phone by thaylin · · Score: 1

      No, I'm pretty sure he was accurately paraphrasing Obama's declaration that he did not need to wait for the legislature to pass bills before he took executive actions to do whatever he wanted to do to further his agenda.

      So I am pretty sure that in bold does not add up...

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    5. Re:Pen & Phone by Straif · · Score: 1

      Google ACA Mandate extensions.

      For that matter google any of the dozens of changes made to the ACA by executive fiat without congressional approval. He's even threatened to veto a congressional proposal to pass a modification of the ACA that did exactly what he did with an EO.

      There are parts of the ACA that were intentionally left vague to give the HHS a lot of wiggle room to make policy decisions but most of those are made within HHS, almost all of the decisions about the ACA made directly from the White House are in direct violation of the law and have nothing to do about unfunded mandates and much more to do with avoiding uncomfortable situations just prior to important election periods.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
  11. Ha, made me laugh. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    But they could suggest Congress write new laws instead of just noting that Congress would need to take action.

    "Congress take action" - Ha.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Ha, made me laugh. by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Like Tesla's phrasing vs. the White House's would make any difference. Last I checked, the unemployment rate was still 6% and worse for the long-term unemployed and older workers, but you can't get the House to move on an unemployment benefit extension. What makes Elon think that his 1% entitlement is any more urgent than any other 1 percenter's desire to keep unemployment benefits away from people? Or from keeping his car off the streets? The Congress obviously has other, better fish to fry. And there are more of the 1% that stand to lose than to gain from Tesla's desire to sell direct. Obama was right on this call - it is Congress' job and nothing he says can make it happen. Be happy his staff didn't come out against the idea entirely.

      I think Elon's problem is that he is still naive enough to think that our country's press releases about wanting to be an innovative place is true. In reality, it's a country - it wants to provide a stable environment for its current businesses. What innovation is allowed to happen will be controlled. Elon's idea was just a bit too big for this country.

      --
      That is all.
  12. Online petitions with consequences? by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The problem with the petition is that it has no consequences.

    Would it help if petitioners agreed to vote *against* the incumbent president's party at the next election if the issue isn't addressed?

    Some of the petitions net upwards of a quarter-million signatures. Is that enough votes to get Washington to take notice?

    1. Re:Online petitions with consequences? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with the petition is that it has no consequences.

      And they shouldn't have any consequences. Why should the 0.04% of the population that signed it dictate things over the 99.96% of the population that didn't? In a democracy, the majority rules.

    2. Re:Online petitions with consequences? by robinsonne · · Score: 1

      Not unless those signatures have money backing them. Money wins elections, not votes.

    3. Re:Online petitions with consequences? by Talderas · · Score: 1

      250,000 signatures is 0.197% of the number of people that voted in the last presidential election.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    4. Re:Online petitions with consequences? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These protectionist laws don't have the support of the majority of the population, but only of the car dealership lobby, which happens to be very rich. Are you proposing that since money rules, the US isn't a democracy?

    5. Re:Online petitions with consequences? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These protectionist laws don't have the support of the majority of the population

      [Citation Needed]

      The results of this petition says otherwise.

  13. only 138,469 people? by js3 · · Score: 1

    lol

    --
    did you forget to take your meds?
    1. Re:only 138,469 people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      0.04 % of the population and people can't figure out why petitions do nothing.

    2. Re:only 138,469 people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Is that 138,469 cars not sold now? If this was the recording industry, I'd sue the United States for 100000 USD, each.

    3. Re:only 138,469 people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      0.04 % of the population and people can't figure out why petitions do nothing.

      Or you could say 0.04% of the population is still ignorant enough to believe petitions do something, especially when addressed to the government, as if they actually represented your interests.

      And honestly, 0.04% sounds about right, given the average persons ability to give a shit about a car company selling a $100,000 car to the elite who can afford it. Did you expect a strong representation from People of Wal-Mart, or were you looking for all those unemployed twentysomethings to stop being so apathetic about shit they can't afford?

  14. The real reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    The real reason that the dealerships care isn't about Tesla at all.

    Dealerships have worked to create laws that forbid car manufacturers from selling direct to consumers. And if Tesla gets around that, then Ford, GM, etc. will be hot on their tracks and dealerships will see significant impact from this. In the age of the internet anyone would become finally able to purchase goods from the car manufacturers. Their way of life would die off.

    That's why they fight Tesla like the fate of the world is at stake.

    1. Re:The real reason by EvilSuggestions · · Score: 1

      Yes, but states could, if they so cared, craft legislation that would protect existing dealers and allow for future innovation. Imagine a law that simply stated that a vehicle manufacturer has to declare up front whether a particular brand is going to be sold through dealers or directly from the manufacturer. There could be restrictions on changing that designation, like requiring they make the dealers "whole" (compensating for loss), or given them veto power to stop the change, etc. That would allow a new manufacturer, like Tesla, to enter the market, or an existing manufacturer to start up a new brand, like GM might have otherwise done with Saturn, via direct sales, without affecting dealers of existing brands.

      --
      "There is a thin line between ignorance and arrogance, and only I have managed to erase that line." - Dr. Science
    2. Re:The real reason by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      You are truly living up to your username. Why would you ever consider intentionally creating such a consciously unequal system to be a good thing?

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  15. "They could suggest Congress..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Why don't I suggest a potato to do my laundry? I'd get the same results as asking congress to do anything. Anything Elon plans to do will be an up-hill battle, and he's in it alone.

  16. Congress write laws???? by romanval · · Score: 1

    Especially laws that would place the interests of the individual ahead of the interests of an established industry cartel? That's a laugh.

    1. Re:Congress write laws???? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The tea party will get right on eliminating this unconscionable government regulation interfering with free trade!

  17. Not a duty of the Executive Branch by ravenscar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    These White House petitions drive me a little nuts. I appreciate that they bring publicity to an issue, but they also demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of how the US Government is designed to work. The issue is state and local laws. These laws don't contradict federal laws. What do people want the President to do about it? If people are upset about their local laws they need to work at the local level - petitioning state law makers.

    The argument could be made that this is interstate commerce. Great, then work with your national representatives to propose federal legislation that would overrule the local laws. It very likely would have to stand up to a court challenge, but the courts have been exceptionally liberal in their interpretation of interstate commerce. If the local governments fail to comply THEN the executive branch will get involved in enforcement.

    It seems like people want the Executive and Judicial branches making the laws. This isn't how it's supposed to happen - for good reason. This reflects not only a bad approach to government, but it is also a sign of just how completely broken Congress is. How said that the only ones who seem able to push any sort of legislation through Congress are big businesses. Everyone else is stuck looking for some sort of alternative. Sadly, those alternatives, should they end up successful, will just result in a less representative, more authoritarian government.

    1. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 5, Informative

      Exactly. Congress has to write a law saying, "By Constitutional law, we are tasked to facilitate interstate commerce. This is impeding interstate commerce; therefor, the new law says: stop doing that." Then the President can point and say, "Go Go Federal Agents!" and any lawsuits raised by Tesla can get to the Federal Courts where the Judge is obligated to say, "Your state laws are in conflict with Federal regulations which are supported by powers Constitutionally granted to the Federal government, therefor the Federal regulations trump your State laws."

    2. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by almitydave · · Score: 1

      Exactly what I wanted to say. The White House should respond by providing links to state and federal representatives if they want the law changed.

      Alternatively, people should pool their resources and form a lobbying group to have greater influence in changing the law. Kickstarter has proven the potential for crowdfunding; there should be a Kickstarter-type site for forming issue-specific political action committees, so people can more effectively lobby for the change that matters to them most. I think this is very much in line with the spirit of the republic, while offering an effective voice to groups of like-minded people.

      Of course, there are already many groups lobbying on many issues, so maybe all that's needed is a comprehensive directory of PACs and lobbying orgs sorted by topic, so people can find one aligned with their ideologies. I just found a decent list here which focuses on tracking financial contributions, but has quite a lot of info.

      --
      my, your, his/her/its, our, your, their
      I'm, you're, he's/she's/it's, we're, you're, they're
    3. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      but they also demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of how the US Government is designed to work.

      So do the majority of the comments on this article.

    4. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > How said that the only ones who seem able to push any sort of legislation through Congress are big businesses.
      > Everyone else is stuck looking for some sort of alternative.
      > Sadly, those alternatives, should they end up successful, will just result in a less representative, more authoritarian government.

      Only some of these alternatives. There are many things that can be done to change it. Some examples are, proportional representation (i.e. ditch FPTP), repeal corporate personhood, force political parties to use public funds only for elections.

      All of these things can chip away big business power without making the government less representative or more authoritarian.

    5. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      The White House should respond by providing links to state and federal representatives if they want the law changed.

      Why? Can an organization like Tesla not find people smart enough to look them up? Are we not smart enough to know where to look? Or so disengaged we don't know which ones to write? For those like that, here's a start. Tesla should be happy that the administration didn't actively try to work against them.

      This is a rich boy whining that he's being oppressed by the system. The only thing that irks me is the fanboys here that seem to want to change this because of "bright, shiny" and "change is good". Note that the jobs Tesla would provide if they got the ability to sell their cars direct probably number many less than the ones provided by current dealerships (and the counterparts needed in the auto companies to deal with said dealers) and that unemployment is still a problem here. Again, Elon should feel lucky that the WH staff didn't send a response about how things are fine as they are and tell him to STFU. That's what you would have gotten if you wanted something. Ask marijuana growers (a much bigger market than electric cars) in Washington or Colorado about that.

      --
      That is all.
    6. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by jfengel · · Score: 1

      What I find particularly perplexing is that if there was a real significant movement, and the request were possible, the White House would already be doing it. It's hard for me to imagine a President saying, "Gosh, 134,000+ people, you're right. This is a really important issue and I had no idea that people cared about it. Thanks, I'll get right on it."

      So I'm confused as to what they hope to accomplish with the site. Maybe, maybe they'd end up going to Congress and saying, "Look, we've got ten million virtual signatures here, and that means I've got a campaign issue next time around. So go do something." But shy of that I don't see it giving anybody anything except a place to vent, followed by a quick civics lesson on the separation of powers.

    7. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by FatAlb3rt · · Score: 1

      You need to recall that this was Obama's Hope and Change idea. Can't blame for people expecting him to keep his word on ideas that he sponsored.

    8. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by almitydave · · Score: 1

      The White House should respond by providing links to state and federal representatives if they want the law changed.

      Why? Can an organization like Tesla not find people smart enough to look them up? Are we not smart enough to know where to look? Or so disengaged we don't know which ones to write?

      Apparently. GGP's whole point is that this petition proves that this is true, and people are asking the president to "do something" rather than using the appropriate channel - their representatives in the legislature (whichever is appropriate to the issue). In theory, enough constituents contacting their representatives will stir them to act; it practice it usually takes an organization with funding to have enough influence; either way, there's a method for the average Joe to amplify his voice and get heard.

      --
      my, your, his/her/its, our, your, their
      I'm, you're, he's/she's/it's, we're, you're, they're
    9. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nonsense, Parliamentary systems work precisely, because they generally have only one supreme House. A majority government is majority, absolute power, the Supreme Court handles constitutionality.

      Congress IS broken because the system is broken.

    10. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Then the President can point and say, "Go Go Federal Agents!"

      Shouldn't that be "Go Go Gadget Federal Agents!"? What ever happened to Dr. Claw, anyhow?

    11. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These White House petitions drive me a little nuts. I appreciate that they bring publicity to an issue, but they also demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of how the US Government is designed to work. The issue is state and local laws. These laws don't contradict federal laws. What do people want the President to do about it? If people are upset about their local laws they need to work at the local level - petitioning state law makers.

      I see no misunderstanding, except perhaps in how you think laws work in the USA.

      What do we expect the President to do about it? The same thing he and his predecessors have done thousands of times in the past - tell the states to fuck themselves a bit harder and focus the camera, because they don't give a shit about what the states want and what the law of the land actually says, and to lay out what they will be doing despite being illegal in every possible way.

      If they are allowed to brush aside state law and criminalize pot, despite half the population not wanting that, then they sure as fuck can brush aside state law and decriminalize Telsa selling in all 50 states despite less.

      We have hundreds of millions of people in prison right this very second on charges (sometimes on charges anyway) that are just as illegal and invalid as would be forcing everyone bitching to allow Telsa sales directly.
      Until they day each and every one of those people are released and given their lives back, worthless empty lies of the government claiming they can't do something because its illegal will not fly around these parts.

      They made their bed of lies, it's not our problem we expect them to remember that and sleep in them.

    12. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If the president doesn't have some friends in congress to whom he can say "Hey, I'd like to see a law about such and such" then we have the wrong president and/or the wrong congress.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    13. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the biggest problem with challenging each and every BS ruling at the state level (without getting a new law passed through congress) is that it would take a decade to get a case in front of the supreme court.

      Basically we keep passing/adding laws at the state and federal level that aren't constitutional but the courts are too overwhelmed to rule on them in a timely manner so we have to pass MORE laws to overturn the already unconstitutional laws that are on the books. Case in point, if they keep selling more cars and getting banned in more states, Tesla is going to start lobbying congress in a couple years to make a law that overrules state laws that are already uncosntitutional in the first place. Business moves too fast to wait for the supreme court to decide to hear the case, so more conressmen are going to get bought and another law will be passed.

      It's sort of a chicken vs egg argument, but I believe the failure of our judicial system at the federal level, is the root cause of a lot of (not all!) the corruption and ineptitude of the US government. The legislative and executive branches wouldn't be pawned around by big business nearly as much if the courts were more efficient in enforcing the constitution.

    14. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      He needs majority in Congress to pass legislation. Also, the President has no power; he has influence, and is basically a figurehead who gets to tell Congress what to do because Congress gets to blame the President when they fuck shit up.

      Think about all the stuff Bush did. Now realize: Bush blew up some shit in Iraq and Afghanistan; everything else that happened during that 8 years--tax cuts and other fiscal policy, any military spending over $56Bn, stem cell legislation, etc.--was all Congress. Now consider Obama, the ACA, tax structures he put in place, and so on. None of that was actually Obama.

      We get to blame the President, and no one blames Congress.

    15. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You can't blame people for expecting Obama to deliver hope and change in 2008 or 2009. Believing that in 2014 is downright naive. Not that there's anything wrong with pressing him on that.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    16. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      What, exactly, stops Obama from introducing such a law into Congress, and publicly announcing his support for it?

    17. Re:Not a duty of the Executive Branch by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      The White House should respond by providing links to state and federal representatives if they want the law changed.

      And I would respond that state and federal representatives aren't leaders of the Democratic Party - Obama is. The president is also free to submit any legislation he wants to Congress, and then use the bully pulpit - only held by the sitting president - to urge it's passing.

      Or if he wants to play hardball, threaten Congress that he'll start vetoing legislation until he gives in or they do. It's one of the ways Bush pushed telecom immunity through Congress when said immunity was deeply unpopular with the public.

  18. the executive can't just wave state law aside??? by Gothmolly · · Score: 1, Insightful

    How many times has the President (any President) done exactly this? Since Jackson famously told the Supremes "now go and enforce it" the Executive has been able to give the Judicial the finger. How many times in recent memory has the Executive waived, changed, or broken existing laws regarding the new Health Care act?

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  19. Where is his pen? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where is his pen?

  20. WH "Petitions" were a campaign scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They were implemented to fool the young-and-dumb into thinking they'd have input into the Obama administration. Any time the petition agrees with what Obama was going to do anyway, his supporters think they had some input. Whenever the petitions are something the Obama admiinistration does not want to deal with they either ignore them or dismiss them with a little humor or snark - and Obama bots still think they've had "input". When the petitions stuff got too annoying, they simply changed the number of "signatures" needed to evoke a response.

    The truly interesting ones are the petitions the Obama administration totally ignores - like the one about the marine vet in Jail in Mexico.

    These whitehouse petitions are about as effective as Michelle Obama's selfie with that #bringbackourgirls sign.... the stupid woman is married to the most powerful man on the planet and she thinks a selfie with a hashtag is more-effective than talking to her hubby. OMG! it turns out terrorists are not influenced by "social media campaigns" on twitter....

    Washington,Lincoln,FDR,Eisenhower, Reagan, etc must all be face-palming in their graves....

  21. For us dummies.... by slashdice · · Score: 1

    Once upon a time (think 1920s/1930s) car manufacturers did abuse the third party dealers ("It would be a real shame if we opened a car store right next to yours and put you out of business") so states enacted laws to prevent that. There were also similar problems with alcohol which is why alcohol distribution is so fucked up, too. The laws are "solving" problems that don't apply to Tesla or small microbrewers.

    --
    Copyright (c) 1990 - 2014 Dice. All rights reserved. Use of this comment is subject to certain Terms and Conditions.
  22. Someone call the waaambulance! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Waaaah Obama is the unitary executive, always giving orders and making laws like he is a KING!

    Waaaah Obama refuses to make a decision, always making it other people's jobs to do stuff!

    WAAAAAHHHHHHH!

  23. No need to qualify by sjbe · · Score: 5, Informative

    Most states, prodded perhaps by dealer associations, have forbidden auto manufacturers from selling directly to the public.

    There is no "perhaps" about it. Auto dealer associations are entirely the reason - no need to qualify your statement. They are parasitic middlemen and they know they have a good deal going. They cost both customers and the automakers money. They should have to compete and provide value just like any other business. There should be no legal prohibition against me buying a car directly from Tesla, GM, Toyota or any other car maker if I want. If the dealer can provide me extra value then fine but if they cannot (and most cannot) then they should disappear like the obsolete businesses they are. There is no rational justification I have heard for protecting their business model at my expense. Perhaps you know of a good reason but frankly for me if auto dealers disappear tomorrow it won't be too soon.

    1. Re:No need to qualify by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most states, prodded perhaps by dealer associations, have forbidden auto manufacturers from selling directly to the public.

      There is no "perhaps" about it. Auto dealer associations are entirely the reason - no need to qualify your statement. They are parasitic middlemen and they know they have a good deal going. They cost both customers and the automakers money. They should have to compete and provide value just like any other business. There should be no legal prohibition against me buying a car directly from Tesla, GM, Toyota or any other car maker if I want. If the dealer can provide me extra value then fine but if they cannot (and most cannot) then they should disappear like the obsolete businesses they are. There is no rational justification I have heard for protecting their business model at my expense. Perhaps you know of a good reason but frankly for me if auto dealers disappear tomorrow it won't be too soon.

      Yup. It rather like being required to head to your nearest brick-and-mortar travel agency to book a flight and hotel and pay them their middleman fee, rather than going to united.com and tripadvisor,com (or whatever your preferred vendor is).

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    2. Re:No need to qualify by houghi · · Score: 2

      On the plus side, it is good to see that the governement stands behind the ones they represent. Ok, it is not the gereral public, but still.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    3. Re:No need to qualify by cdrudge · · Score: 2

      There should be no legal prohibition against me buying a car directly from Tesla, GM, Toyota or any other car maker if I want.

      Is the opposition coming just from the dealers? Or is it coming from the established manufacturers by way of dealers?

      Many industries sell only through distributors, dealers, or otherwise "authorized" retail outlets. The company I work for is in the HVAC industry. We only sell to our dealers and never directly to the end consumer. I don't know of any major HVAC manufacturer that sells direct to consumer. It's not that there are laws that prevent direct sales of furnaces or air conditioners, rather that's just how the industry chooses to sell. However if an new manufacturer decided to sell direct a new type of furnace or AC that was "better" and therefor a legitimate threat, I wonder if you'd see types of legislation from the established players to slow if not stop the new competition.

    4. Re:No need to qualify by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there are some federal regulations that sort of keep the dealerships in place too with regards to warranty and recall service work, since they have the "official" service departments for the particular make of cars.

      Notice, if you have a Ford for example, you cannot go to Firestone or Meinecke to get the recall work performed on your vehicle, but have to go to a dealership service center.

    5. Re:No need to qualify by Iniamyen · · Score: 1

      Most states, prodded perhaps by dealer associations, have forbidden auto manufacturers from selling directly to the public.

      There is no "perhaps" about it. Auto dealer associations are entirely the reason - no need to qualify your statement. They are parasitic middlemen and they know they have a good deal going. They cost both customers and the automakers money. They should have to compete and provide value just like any other business. There should be no legal prohibition against me buying a car directly from Tesla, GM, Toyota or any other car maker if I want. If the dealer can provide me extra value then fine but if they cannot (and most cannot) then they should disappear like the obsolete businesses they are. There is no rational justification I have heard for protecting their business model at my expense. Perhaps you know of a good reason but frankly for me if auto dealers disappear tomorrow it won't be too soon.

      Yup. It rather like being required to head to your nearest brick-and-mortar travel agency to book a flight and hotel and pay them their middleman fee, rather than going to united.com and tripadvisor,com (or whatever your preferred vendor is).

      I think in the case of buying airline tickets and hotel rooms (e.g. Travelocity, etc...) the same middleman claim could be applied. However, the difference is that for a lot of people, these middlemen actually DO provide value. And there's nothing preventing you from buying directly from the airline (or hotel, or car rental agency, etc...) if you WANT to.

    6. Re:No need to qualify by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If another HVAC company thought it could do its best by selling direct to consumers, the company you work for wouldn't sue to prevent them from doing that, would they? I'd expect all the companies at that level or in that portion of the HVAC industry to say "we do what we think is best; if they want to sell direct and never have relationships with distributors who can help, let them knock themselves out."

    7. Re:No need to qualify by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Umm, yes. That was my point.

      I used a travel agent last week to work out a complex trip across three countries in Asia.
      But in order to exist, they do need to add value. Car dealerships do not.

       

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
  24. Ranters gonna rant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If there's one thing Obama is passionate about, it is expanding federal power to all aspects of everything.

    This article is about how the WH is not getting involved. So presumably you support this decision of the president not to expand federal powers?

  25. The petroleum companies by CosaNostra+Pizza+Inc · · Score: 0

    I'm sure Big Oil had a hand in the President's decision.

  26. One legit use of the commerce clause by istartedi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well now, here's an actual legitimate use of the Commerce Clause; but Congress won't use it. Every podunk dealer that ever contributed to their campaigns would ring their phones off the hook, as well as actual corporate lobby from GM, etc.

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    1. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe there's just no real call for it and having things like this left in the hands of the states is a better policy?
       
      Fuck the federal government. While you champion this cause today, the megabitch that this would turn into on the other end of the legislative pen would likely cause your jaw to drop if you weren't an absolute fanboy.
       
      How can you honestly look at what the government has turned into in the last 20 year (let alone what they turned into since the civil war, to be honest) and think that more control should be put in their hands?

    2. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      Well now, here's an actual legitimate use of the Commerce Clause...

      Please elaborate. The commerce clause doesn't seem to apply within a state, only between states.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    3. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please elaborate. The commerce clause doesn't seem to apply within a state, only between states.

      Unless you live in the state where the car is manufactured, the interstate commece clause applies. It would be trivial for congress and the president to put an end to this nonsense, if they weren't so craven.

    4. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      Unless you live in the state where the car is manufactured, the interstate commece clause applies.

      Are states treating Tesla any different from auto manufacturers located within the state?

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    5. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tesla Motors is headquartered in Palo Alto, CA.

      Therefore if they sell their product directly to consumers anywhere outside of California, the commerce clause applies.

    6. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, in every state except for California, Interstate Commerce is going on between Tesla and the consumers, but only if the states allow it.
      The states banning Tesla direct sales are interfering with Interstate Commerce.

    7. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by omnichad · · Score: 1

      ...as well as actual corporate lobby from GM, etc

      I'm not sure about that. GM may lose a good amount of sales to Tesla, but being able to cut out the middle man from every new vehicle sale would more than make up for it.

    8. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      That is a very simplistic view of a very complex subject. That would mean that anything that is produced out of state would be federally regulated and that is completely untrue. For example California has certain emission standards and they are applied to all vehicles sold in California. These standards are different than other states but they do not put an unfair burden on out of state manufactures are are therefore the Commerce Clause does not apply.

    9. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by ProzacPatient · · Score: 1

      DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer and the following statements are strictly personal opinion. No written, verbal or communication otherwise shall constitute legal advice.

      That would mean that anything that is produced out of state would be federally regulated and that is completely untrue.

      I thought it'd be worthwhile to mention that the federal government does regulate some things down to the tiniest details supposedly under the commerce clause including but not limited to firearms even if they originate in a state and don't cross state lines because Congress claims they might cross state lines and therefore the federal government reserves the right to regulate it into oblivion despite state law. Some states, such as Montana, have tried unsuccessfully challenging this by attempting to codify nullification acts into state law.

      If you do some research in Title 18 of the United States Criminal Code you'll find that Congress makes some wild claims about the extent of the commerce clause such as in the Gun Free Zone Act of 1995 where they claim that because a gun might have crossed state lines it is within the authority of Congress to ban otherwise lawful carrying of arms from certain places nation wide regardless of jurisdiction. They use the same logic to justify the National Firearms Act of 1934, Gun Control Act of 1968 and even something as superficial as the appearance of weapons in the now expired Assault Weapons Ban of 1994.

      Long story short the federal government doesn't seem to particularly care if something is actually a state issue and will use the commerce clause to justify just about anything.

    10. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Long story short the federal government doesn't seem to particularly care if something is actually a state issue and will use the commerce clause to justify just about anything.

      The petition the House and not the Whitehouse as the President can not make laws; he can only sign them. By the way The issue with guns in schools is a easy thing to fight for. Noone in their right mind would vote against such a law even if it was not valid under the Commerce Clause. The issue of dealerships is very different in that there are arguments on both sides and it would probably be shot down by the Supreme court.

      The Gun Free Zone Act of 1995 was shot down by the Supreme court and the amendments have yet to be challenged there. National Firearms Act of 1934 was a tax and not a ban. Gun Control Act of 1968 is definitely about interstate commerce. Here are a couple of provisions;

      Private sales between residents of two different states are also prohibited without going through a licensed dealer, except for the case of a buyer holding a Curio & Relic license purchasing a firearm that qualifies as a curio or relic.
      Private sales between unlicensed individuals who are residents of the same state are allowed under federal law so long as such transfers do not violate the other existing federal and state laws. While current law mandates that a background check be performed if the seller has a federal firearms license, private parties living in the same state are not required to perform such checks under federal law. State laws however can prohibit such sales.

      The Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 was also another "vote against and lose the next election" bill. Whether or not the law was valid if one did not vote for it they would be out of office.

    11. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm pretty sure the big 3 automakers want these state laws gone as well. They just can't fight them without upsetting their dealer networks, which basically have them by the balls.

    12. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by ProzacPatient · · Score: 1

      I understand the legislative process in that the executive branch is barred from enacting laws (otherwise known as decrees) or even introducing legislation into the legislative branch. I was speaking strictly regarding to the commerce clause and the federal government using it to justify just about anything.

      The Gun Free Zone Act of 1990 was struck down by SCOTUS but later Congress enacted it again using the commerce clause to get around the jurisdictional reasons that the SCOTUS objected to. Many, if not all, states have their own gun free zone acts but those are appropriate at the state level.

      The National Firearms Act of 1934 was intended to tax certain items into oblivion (as if gangsters cared about taxes) but when I was thinking of that particular act I was thinking of the Firearm Owner's Act of 1986 which carries with it the Hughes Amendment (whose legality is questioned by some given the circumstances it was "passed" under) that bans possession of certain weapons regardless of their origin because now under the Hughes Amendment one can no longer legally register and tax weapons possessing certain features regardless of the weapon's jurisdiction of origin or if it never crosses state lines. I think the provisions of the NFA and its amendments are particularly what states like; Arizona, Missouri, Montana and a couple others are particularly trying to assert their sovereignty over. If I recall correctly Montana tried to argue that silencers are legal if manufactured within Montana and not subject to federal interstate tax, fingerprinting and other BATFE requirements as long they remain within the state of Montana. Arizona is trying a different approach under the anti-commandeering act as protest to the Hughes Amendment and other NFA provisions.

      The Gun Control Act of 1968 also introduced other measures in requiring that all dealers have expensive licenses and be subject to intense scrutiny and that all firearms have serial numbers regardless of their jurisdiction of origin or if they never cross state lines.

      The BATFE is also notorious for twisting these laws in ways to arbitrarily ban items, even retroactively against prior approval, that even certain members of Congress are becoming concerned with the abuse enough to call for its dissolving. My particular favorite is when a man tied a shoe string around a rifle's trigger to simulate automatic fire and the BATFE declared shoe strings to be machine guns under provisions of the NFA and that possession of shoe strings constitutes a felonious offense.

      Now I'm not saying I disagree with most of these laws but I think the federal government is used to getting its way and using the commerce clause in ways the founding fathers may never have intended, therefore if Congress were say that it has no say over the Tesla issue because its a state thing then its complete bull and they know it because it has never stopped them before from stepping all over state's sovereignty.

    13. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      My particular favorite is when a man tied a shoe string around a rifle's trigger to simulate automatic fire and the BATFE declared shoe strings to be machine guns under provisions of the NFA

      That was a stupid ruling by a single bureaucrat which has since been rescinded.

      because it has never stopped them before from stepping all over state's sovereignty.

      That is actually difficult to prove or disprove. Sure there are cases where the feds have stepped all over States Rights but it is also difficult to prove there were no cases where the feds didn't even try because it was a States Rights issue.

    14. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Sure the Commerce Clause doesn't apply? It doesn't say states can't regulate things within their own borders, just that interstate stuff can be regulated by the Feds. If there was a Federal law that said anybody could buy a vehicle from an out-of-state source regardless of emission standards, that would override any California law. I don't believe the Feds could force California to issue license plates to such cars, but they can force such sales to be legal.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    15. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      In the end it would be the same effect; the vehicle would not be allowed to be driven.

    16. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      For example California has certain emission standards and they are applied to all vehicles sold in California. These standards are different than other states but they do not put an unfair burden on out of state manufactures are are therefore the Commerce Clause does not apply.

      For Commerce Clause to apply, Congress needs to exercise its authority to legislate and ban this practice in California. Since they haven't actually done so, the fact that California does it today doesn't really mean anything. They can legally do it until told not to by the Congress, and I strongly suspect that SCOTUS would back Congress if such a thing ever happened and was contested in court.

    17. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Take a look at this. There are several instances where the SCOTUS has thrown out federal laws as not being valid under the Commerce Clause.

    18. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Well, if you look at the list of such cases, it's quite obvious that it consists of "before Wickard" and "after Wickard" cases. All ones that are "after", and that have been thrown out as invalid, were thrown out because they really didn't have any meaningful connection to commerce at all, much less interstate commerce, so even under the insanely broad interpretation from Wickard they were still bullshit. Laws regulating commercial goods, on the other hand, would be much harder to argue against so long as that remains the standing interpretation.

    19. Re:One legit use of the commerce clause by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      That is a very simplistic view of a very complex subject.

      Just because you want to dismiss it out of hand doesn't mean it's inaccurate.

      That would mean that anything that is produced out of state would be federally regulated and that is completely untrue.

      The trading of said goods can be regulated by the feds, that's the entire purpose of the Commerce Clause. To prevent states from screwing around blocking trade across state lines for petty protectionist reasons....like states blocking direct sales of cars to consumers.

      For example California has certain emission standards and they are applied to all vehicles sold in California.

      Standards set by California, not the feds. And no, that's not a petty protectionist reason, but a technical one. Still, the feds could step in and tell California that they'll take their smog and like it - but they've chosen not to.

  27. Jurisdiction: This is actually a great reply by MobyDisk · · Score: 2

    Obama gave the only reply he could. It essentially says "I don't control that, I can't help you. Sorry."

    When your local state passes a bad law, don't cry to the federal government. Call your local representatives and fix the law yourself. It's easier to get local laws changed, and that is the appropriate level to do it.

    1. Re:Jurisdiction: This is actually a great reply by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would have been a better reply if it had been more detailed about why the White House didn't feel like they had authority to do anything about this, and not a bunch political grandstanding about the president's energy inititives.

      I support state rights, but I do have some sympathy for Tesla here. They have to try to get common sense legislation passed in 50 different states for auto direct sales, which no one except a well-funded special interest would oppose. State legislators and most voters probably don't care enough to stand up to the special interest or move on this quickly enough for Tesla to meet the needs of a fast-paced market.

    2. Re:Jurisdiction: This is actually a great reply by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      If the state law is unconstitutional, or can be nullified by a Congressional act within the Constitutional authority Congress has, crying to the Feds may be the best move.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  28. Actually, WH can waive state laws by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    When state laws are a barrier to interstate commerce and prevent a US manufacturer from retailing in a state, the White House can void them.

    Interstate Commerce.

    All your Red South is belong to plug-in electric cars

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Actually, WH can waive state laws by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Actually, that's Congress. The Legislative branch would have to produce appropriate legislation. Once legislation exists, the Executive Branch may issue an Executive Order to execute the legislation.

    2. Re:Actually, WH can waive state laws by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Actually, that's Congress. The Legislative branch would have to produce appropriate legislation. Once legislation exists, the Executive Branch may issue an Executive Order to execute the legislation.

      I think you're thinking of another country.

      In America, Congress does nothing except whine and posture.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    3. Re:Actually, WH can waive state laws by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      Um, no. Congress created the Department of Commerce and delegated all of its authority to regulate commerce back to the White House.

    4. Re:Actually, WH can waive state laws by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Um, no. Congress may have written a law covering some things under the Commerce Clause; the Department of Commerce is a federal agency and, like the FDA and DEA, it was created by executive order to execute the power of legislation passed by Congress.

      Congress created laws allowing for the regulation of controlled substances (drugs) and the quality of food and such substances, devices, and procedures as were useful for medical purposes. The latter became the Food and Drug Administration, and the former became the Drug Enforcement Administration. These were created by Executive Order to carry out the legislated regulatory powers which Congress passed into law.

      The Department of Commerce may or may not have Congressionally limited power. I could see them pulling the Incorporation trick, passing a law that says the Federal government shall pass and enforce regulations as granted by powers under the Commerce Clause; but that would include a whole bunch of shit that Congress has had to pass laws for recently, and would overlap with the FCC and the FDA and hundreds of other Federal agencies. We have over 1800 Federal agencies here.

  29. Unfortunately, this is a state's issue. by Mysticalfruit · · Score: 2

    The reply is actually excellent. I was about to hate all over the page but actually read it first. Frankly, this is an individual states issue... Which only an act of congress can change, or have our local politicians change.

    However, the auto dealership lobby is a serious nut to crack. With elections coming, I'm not sure many politicians are going to put their necks out so they can be labeled as against local businesses.

    --
    Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
  30. Getting the shaft. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Back on topic , having to go through a dealer adds a layer of costs and is totally against the interest of the consumers.
    Car dealerships is a mafia and nothing short of organised crime. Free enterprise in the USA ? MY ASS

  31. Interstate commerce and maybe racketeering by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Who cares what the WH thinks?

    Because what the occupants of the White House think matters. Same with Congress. We don't have to like it but we're idiots if we pretend their opinion doesn't matter. If there is a problem that they can solve and the States are unwilling (wouldn't be the first time) then I'm fine with the Feds taking care of it. I just care that the right thing happens.

    Its State Law. Let the voters in each state decide what they want.

    State law that may very well interfere with interstate commerce. Auto dealers do not (generally) source their vehicles locally and so you can make a pretty good argument that interstate commerce applies here. I can also very easily argue that the Auto Dealer Associations are engaging in a form of racketeering. They are pretending to "protect" us from the big bad auto companies while providing no discernible value to customers or to auto companies generally and they have influenced politicians to protect their business model to the detriment of others. Sounds an awful lot like racketeering to me.

    I'm not a big fan of the federal government abusing the interstate commerce clause but this seems like a case where it likely applies. IANAL of course but it doesn't pass the smell test to me.

    1. Re:Interstate commerce and maybe racketeering by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      I'm not a big fan of the federal government abusing the interstate commerce clause but this seems like a case where it likely applies..

      I don't like the dealer laws either, but I can't be comfortable in setting the threshold of federal commerce intrusion on an issue by issue basis to suit my personal preference. States are already too encumbered. JMHO.

    2. Re:Interstate commerce and maybe racketeering by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      That's funny though, because interstate commerce intrusion is one of the actual enumerated powers of the Federal government, unlike a lot of other shit that it does that are... interpreted powers.

  32. Re:the executive can't just wave state law aside?? by maccodemonkey · · Score: 2

    How many times has the President (any President) done exactly this? Since Jackson famously told the Supremes "now go and enforce it" the Executive has been able to give the Judicial the finger. How many times in recent memory has the Executive waived, changed, or broken existing laws regarding the new Health Care act?

    The problem is that this isn't a federally enforced law, it's a state enforced law. Obama can tell federal agents to no longer enforce any of these laws, but that won't change anything in since the feds aren't the ones supporting these laws to begin with.

    Basically you'd be down to what the government had to do to force racial integration: Send in the army to keep Tesla dealerships open and protect the Tesla dealerships against state law enforcement. While I'd like to see you, you can understand why that might cause problems in this political climate. There is also a decent argument that Obama might not have this authority because their is no Federal counter law to the state law. Any way you look at this, Congress needs to pass a law for Obama to do anything. The example you're giving is the reverse: a President ignoring existing federal law. Here, it's the opposite: Obama would have to make up new a new federal law to override state law that does not exist. Not really the same thing.

  33. Move to Canada by diodeus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Move Tesla to Canada. The rules of NAFTA trump this local dealer baloney.

    1. Re:Move to Canada by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Actually it does not. NAFTA states that the US can not treat Canadian made cars any worse than American made cars. Since the dealership requirement is there for American made cars NAFTA would have no effect.

  34. Where are free market republicans? by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why is the government allowed to stop the guy from selling a legal product?

    1. Re:Where are free market republicans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are enjoying their campaign contributions from middlemen like auto dealers.

    2. Re:Where are free market republicans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dead on average...

    3. Re:Where are free market republicans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seeings as where just about any politician that mentions the free market gets dismissed by the mass media and folks like you as fringe and dangerous? I don't know, where do you expect them to be. There's maybe a half dozen legislators in the US Congress that have any stomach for free market economies and they spend most of their time on the defensive against the kinds of shithogs that you elect into office. How do you expect them to do anything?
       
      The US basically has few legal free markets left and those that do exist have no real pull on the economy. It's been like that for the last century. How shits like you caw on about the free markets being a failure is beyond me since you've never seen one in action. We've tried the big brother approach. We've elected every mixture of R and D we can manage given the structure of the federal government. Yet you keep acting like the people who are recommending something that we haven't tried or at least haven't tried in a couple of generations are the root of the problem. Seriously? You are the problem.

    4. Re:Where are free market republicans? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is the government allowed to stop the guy from selling a legal product?

      Some feel the need to occasionally put a not-so-invisible glove on the invisible hand of the free market to protect themselves.

    5. Re:Where are free market republicans? by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      Seeings as where just about any politician that mentions the free market gets dismissed by the mass media and folks like you as fringe and dangerous? I don't know, where do you expect them to be.

      This isn't hard...the average elected Republican no more gives a shit about having a "free market" than he cares about banning abortion - it's the same hot air for the base. You can see this any time the Free Market Fairy starts to pose a danger to corporate profits, as Republicans rush to pass laws to support the monied interests that own the party.

      And no, I don't expect your average Democratic governor to be better on this issue than Chris Christie, who moved to protect the fiefdoms of the dealers. They are bought as well, but at least they don't spend the rest of their time beating their chests about how much they love the Free Market Fairy.

  35. Kit car by MouseR · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Tesla could sell the car as a kit where you order one or more of N components to complete the car.

    Eg, the car body, the batteries, the clip-on steering wheel.

  36. Make your own dealership network by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Make your own dealership network.
    Get enthusiasts to sign up to set up a shell of a dealership.
    They just operate a web site taking orders and passing back the sale to the Tesla
    for say 0.1% commission - would work for everybody.

  37. Sounds like by MitchDev · · Score: 1

    unfair restraint of trade. Auto Dealers are NOT necessary.

  38. Re:the executive can't just wave state law aside?? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

    The executive branch didn't do any of that. Congress is the legislative branch.

  39. Re:the executive can't just wave state law aside?? by VorpalRodent · · Score: 4, Funny

    It took me a minute to parse this for context. I was grasping at straws for when Michael Jackson and/or the Jackson Five was giving orders to Diana Ross.

    --
    Take it to the limit, everybody to the limit, come on, everybody fhqwhgads.
  40. That worked for Clinton, only non-suck president by raymorris · · Score: 4, Informative

    The only president of the last twenty years who is generally considered to have been reasonably good is Clinton. What did Clinton do? Not much. Pretty much, he entered the White House during a time of economic growth and got a blowjob. For that (doing nothing) he's considered to be better than Bush Jr. or Obama. Before Clinton, George HW Bush wasn't bad and what did he do? Domestically, pretty much nothing. He was all foreign policy - START I, Noriega, beginning NAFTA.

    Obama's legacy probably would be better if he'd play even more golf, throw another blowout party, and stop messing with the country.

  41. He cant or wont? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... why can't he waive state laws?

    The last time the president did that, hundreds of thousands of Americans lost their lives in the resulting conflict.

  42. Magical President Obama! by Chas · · Score: 1

    NO! WE CAN"T!

    But hey! He'll save us all! Right?

    Face it. We're stuck with YAP (Yet Another Politico).

    Screw what The People want. It's all about that special interest fat cash!

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
    1. Re:Magical President Obama! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See, kids. Not every one with a low UID is cogent.

    2. Re:Magical President Obama! by StevenMaurer · · Score: 1

      We elect Presidents in the United States, not dictators. These are enforced by laws made by the individual States, not the Federal government, much less the President, who can only work within the limited leeway that previous Congresses have granted him via laws.

      Presidents, not dictators. With a user id so low, you simply can't be that young. How could you possibly not know this?

    3. Re:Magical President Obama! by Chas · · Score: 1

      No, but he'll use a presidential mandate to shimmy around Congress for one of his own special interests, right?

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    4. Re:Magical President Obama! by Chas · · Score: 1

      See kids. Not every AC understands that discussing dissatisfaction with a single politician's job performance is not the same thing as lacking cogency.

      In the rare cases when this understanding is absent, you see silly ad hominems like this.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
  43. Tesla dealerships by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why can't Elon Musk set up a Tesla dealership in each state that requires them?

    1. Re:Tesla dealerships by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why can't Elon Musk set up a Tesla dealership in each state that requires them?

      Because the laws also say the dealerships can't be owned by the manufacturer.

  44. States should have to defend bad laws by sjbe · · Score: 1

    I don't like the dealer laws either, but I can't be comfortable in setting the threshold of federal commerce intrusion on an issue by issue basis to suit my personal preference.,/quote>

    How do you think the threshold gets set? Congress and states pass laws and it gets hashed out on a case by case basis through regulations and lawsuits on a case by case basis. There is no other way to settle what that the threshold should be. If the States are interfering with interstate commerce as I've theorized then they should have their hand slapped. The entire purpose of the interstate commerce clause is to keep crap like this from happening to the detriment of all.

    States are already too encumbered.

    If the State is encumbered in this case then it is the fault of the State for protecting a group of middlemen at the expense of the rest of the citizenry. The option with the least encumbrance is for the State to have no law protecting dealerships. If they insist such a law is necessary (as is their right) then they have the obligation to defend their position if necessary when it appears to violate the Constitution.

  45. Dems had both houses. Reagan led with Dem majority by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > "Oh, I agree and am as passionate about (insert topic here) as you are, but that do-nothing congress, well, sorry but we can't do much..."
    > It's not that it's Obama's fault but I find the whole thing disingenuous at best, similar to his campaign messages* that got everyone excited enough to vote for him.

    It's not his _fault_ on a moral level, but I'd argue that it his ineffectiveness. From 2009-2011 the Democrats controlled the house, the Senate, and the Presidency. They got darn little accomplished. The dems didn't even pass a budget when they were in full control of everything.

    On the other hand, Reagan had the leadership skills to get stuff done with the democrats controlled the house, and therefore the purse strings.

  46. Curious silence by d34thm0nk3y · · Score: 1

    Where are all the Conservatives cheering on the Administration for respecting States Rights?

  47. Spineless weasel by Squidlips · · Score: 1, Interesting

    O is just doing what his controllers tell him to do. You don't think he really runs the country between his golfing vacations do you?

  48. Jerbs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Eliminating the middle man puts people out of work! If people can't work, the economy will wither and die!

    Of course...the only jobs the politicians are interested in protecting are the ones at the very top of the middle-man industry, which is to say, the rich people who lobby. Nobody in power gives a hoot about the jobs of the low-end functionaries who are barely clearing minimum wage. THOSE people can take the stick they are given!

  49. The American way? by Urkki · · Score: 2

    WTF? I know US has its problems, and I doubt I'd want to live there, but isn't it supposed to be a free market economy? Isn't this (not being allowed to sell legal goods to people) about as anti-American as it gets? What happaned to "the Land of the Free" etc? Free, except not free to buy a car?

    1. Re:The American way? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There is a lot more of this crap than just with cars sales. Look at the taxi commission. It can cost well over $100K just for a single taxi license. There is one state where, to be a florist, you have to take a test in flower arrangement, graded by existing florists. Unless you know someone, you don't pass.

    2. Re:The American way? by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      What state has that florist regulation?

    3. Re:The American way? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Looks like Louisiana. Fucktards.

    4. Re:The American way? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Taxis aren't interstate commerce. Not that the courts haven't stretched the Commerce Clause that far in the past, but they are probably not going to be willing to stretch it again.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  50. Here's a list of reasons. 100 years ago, car compa by raymorris · · Score: 2

    Basically, 100 years ago the big mean car companies were sometimes mean to local dealers. Here's a list of things dealers claimed that manufacturers did, as codified in New York law:
    http://ypdcrime.com/vt/article...

    If the car dealer fought back, the manufacturer would either a) threaten to open a new dealership next door or b) stop delivering cars to the dealership.
    Like laws that force companies to work with unions, these laws force manufacturers to work with local dealers. If the manufacturer cut off the dealer's sales they'd be cutting off their own sales too.

    This grew out of earlier laws that said you had to be licensed to be a car dealer, much as real estate agents are licensed. It was easy enough to tack on the sentence "manufacturers can't be licensed as dealers".

  51. Alcohol is a consumer good too by l2718 · · Score: 1

    Post-prohibition most states regimented the alcholic beverage distribution chain into a three-tier system: producers, distributors, and retailers. As you can see this is even worse than with cars. For example, vinyards often cannot sell directly to the public, and they can't sell directly to pubs or wine stores. The middlemen must be paid ...

    1. Re:Alcohol is a consumer good too by Raseri · · Score: 1

      I regularly buy beer directly from breweries (Wisconsin here). I'm not saying that that's the case in all states, but it just illustrates the point that the White House made: That it's up to individual states to decide whether a particular good needs to have a middleman for whatever reason. In the case of alcohol, some states' laws are still fairly draconian, but one can see the line of reasoning behind it, and they don't really seem to be "gotta pay my buddies in the distribution biz," so much as "gotta get votes, hammer on public safety!" In the case of automobiles, it's just plain and simple greed on behalf of car dealers.

      --
      Writhe your naked ass to the mindless groove.
  52. Tough spot for auto makers by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Is the opposition coming just from the dealers?

    Largely yes from what I can tell. I think the big autos are staying largely out of the argument to avoid pissing off their dealer networks. The auto companies are in a tough spot - they need the dealers because they are required to need the dealers and thus have no alternative. I think the auto makers would prefer to do away with many of the dealers but cannot. The justice department published an interesting study on the relevant economic effects.

    Many industries sell only through distributors, dealers, or otherwise "authorized" retail outlets.

    Usually when the cost to reach/serve the customer is too large to justify the expense of interacting with customers directly. In years past having the dealer network allowed the auto makers to concentrate on making the vehicles without the distraction and expense of trying to sell the end product too. Now however much of the profits is in service and financing so requiring a dealer network makes considerably less sense than it did 40 years ago.

  53. The justification is... by Marrow · · Score: 1

    The dealers don't want people coming to their stores and test-driving cars only to lose the sales to some tax-free Internet site. A valid issue, except I don't think there are any Tesla dealerships that would lose out this way. I expect the Tesla dealerships are owned by....Tesla.
    The justification seems even worse on things like motorcycles since I don't think people even test drive those.

    1. Re:The justification is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The justification seems even worse on things like motorcycles since I don't think people even test drive those.

      Around here (Minnesota) the best you get is once or twice a year they have "try and buy" events. The manufacturer ships in some units that are just for the try and buy that you get to test drive. If you decide to buy you get new one off the floor that has never been ridden. It works well since it is so easy to drop a motorcycle and heavily damage its resale.

      That way each and every dealer doesn't need to eat the cost of selling the demo units as used every year, but it limits the customers test drive options.

  54. Well, they were on the free market... by Marrow · · Score: 2

    Then they got bought and are no longer on the market.

  55. Re:That worked for Clinton, only non-suck presiden by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    HW got the shaft because his foreign policy programs forced him to go back on one of his biggest campaign pledges: no new taxes.

    Gulf War I was fucking expensive, dammit!

  56. Re:the executive can't just wave state law aside?? by omnichad · · Score: 1

    I wasn't aware that Jackson had ever performed with The Supremes.

  57. It is called corruption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...and corruption is endemic in Washington.

  58. Blah blah blah.. by h8sg8s · · Score: 1

    Seeking leadership from Obama? More likely to get blood from a stone..

    --
    Organization? You must be joking..
  59. White House Petitions.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The White House Petition site is a joke. Basically the site is a publicity stunt.

  60. Re:That worked for Clinton, only non-suck presiden by micahraleigh · · Score: 2

    You are right about Clinton doing nothing. Osama bin Laden noticed this during Al Qaida's Yemen campaign and observed the Americans are "paper tigers".

    2 years after leaving office ... Sept 11 happens.

    Thank you, president Clinton.

    ... I'll give you that he was a whole lot better than Obama.

  61. Interstate Commerce? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, healthcare is an interstate activity, subject to federal regulation, but selling a car isn't?

  62. Fei-like Mandate to Rekka Plan after FADC-DP Nerf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The title and the summary is very hard for me to read. Too much mixing political and football jargon for me. So I made my own headline based on Street Fighter lingo. Enjoy.

  63. This is not the President's job by troll+-1 · · Score: 2

    Article I, section 8 of the Constitution clearly takes the power to regulate commerce out of the hands of the Executive and gives it to Congress. And if it's not interstate commerce then it's up to the states.

    1. Re:This is not the President's job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Congress delegated that power to the Executive by creating the Department of Commerce. The Department of Commerce has all the power it needs to regulate interstate commerce by executive decree.

  64. Well, at least Obama's record is perfect. by argStyopa · · Score: 2

    Total number of substantive results from the petition site? Zero.

    --
    -Styopa
    1. Re:Well, at least Obama's record is perfect. by StevenMaurer · · Score: 1
      It worked to keep cellphones jailbreakable. http://www.onthemedia.org/stor...

      The deal came in the wake of a consumer rebellion over the policy of locking cellphones to a carrier. A petition that garnered more than 114,000 signatures landed at the White House, and the Obama administration sided with the petitioners.

  65. Please explain to NON US people by MildlyTangy · · Score: 2

    This article leaves me very, very confused.

    FYI, I am not American.

    Why is it illegal for a car company to sell....cars...to people?
    Isnt that kinda like it being illegal for HP to sell printers to people? Or it being illegal for an orchard to sell apples to people?

    If its illegal, there must be some moral wrong going on, but after much thinking, I simply cannot think of any possible thing that is wrong with a car company selling cars to people. Why is this so?

    Is it to do with religion? Like, is it against somebodys religion that a car company sells cars to people?
    Is it a union or labor thing? Or is it due to the lobbying(bribery) that happens in the US Govt?

    Im at a loss here, can anybody please explain?

    1. Re:Please explain to NON US people by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Car dealers formed a bribery association and paid a bunch of bribes, I mean, campaign contributions, and now they have protectionist laws which permit them to shit on us.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Please explain to NON US people by will_die · · Score: 1

      The state laws came about because cars use to be sold how directly from the manufacturers and that lead to lots of problems with lack of support.
      With cars being the second biggest purchase, besides a house, states started to require that you had to have service and support of warranty, recalls, etc from where you purchase the vehicle or close to where you live. If you move away from where the dealer is, that is your responsibility.
      Tesla wants to get away from that where if you need support you call them, and they determine over the phone if they will provide support; if they don't then you can take your vehicle to California and they will look it over. If they do you are then required to go to a third party garage, which most can do only limited work. If those garages cannot do the warranty work your vehicle will be shipped out of state to a place that can do the work.
      It is not that weird of a law most countries have the same laws of protection.

  66. Re:That worked for Clinton, only non-suck presiden by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    Before Clinton, George HW Bush wasn't bad and what did he do? Domestically, pretty much nothing.

    Wait, what? Desert what? This will not be another what? CIA death squad what? George Herbert Walker Bush is evil right down to the tiny black pellet referred to as his 'heart', and we know that because he did evil.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  67. Re:That worked for Clinton, only non-suck presiden by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clinton signed the DMCA into law. He also lied under oath to Congress and the entire nation. Those two crimes alone put him solidly in the "suck" category. W sucked even more, and now Obama is sucking his way into the history books. Why do all our leaders suck?????

  68. foreign policy what? by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Pretty sure you're making reference to foreign policy items there, not domestic programs. Everyone has their own opinions, but compare Clinton and HW approval ratings to junior and Obama.

    1. Re:foreign policy what? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure you're making reference to foreign policy items there, not domestic programs.

      They tend to have effects at home. Or haven't you seen those chickens around?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  69. Allow direct sales but mandate "dealerships"? by swb · · Score: 1

    Maybe they could allow direct sales, but require that any company performing direct sales both have some minimum in-state physical presence for sales/service proportionate to the volume of cars they sell as well as allowing third party establishments to perform those tasks for them in some mutually agreed upon way?

    This way, Tesla can sell cars direct but has to have some kind of bricks-and-mortar presence in states they sell them. They could all be owned by Tesla, but they wouldn't have to be if someone wanted to run the physical presence for them in the way Tesla wanted it done.

    Since the existing car makers now sell a huge volume of cars in order to do direct sales they would have to duplicate the existing dealership network they have now, which would be hugely expensive. This would be the "save" for existing car dealers -- they wouldn't necessarily have to fear GM/Toyota/Ford suddenly selling direct because in order to do so, those makers would have to build out huge bricks-and-mortar presences. It would make so much more sense for the existing makers to stick with the existing dealerships.

  70. Data suggests only suck so bad since 2000, 14 year by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > Why do all our leaders suck?????

    Everyone has their own opinions, of course, but looking at both objective and subjective data such as economic growth, approval ratings, etc. it looks like the suckage started in 2000. Economic growth crashed from 8% to 0.3%, and the president's approval rating went from 57 to 39.

    There's certainly hope that we can get another Kennedy/Reagan/Eisenhower* next time. Maybe if we try to choose based on COMPETENCE rather than just whoever most extremely mirrors our favored ideology.

    * (Not an actual Kennedy of course, the good one is dead. HW Bush / Bush Jr. should have taught us something about electing a guy because he was related to a decent president.)

  71. Disagree - This isn't about direct sales by rsborg · · Score: 1

    Direct sales itself is the threat. If people want change, they need to get off of the notion that this is about Tesla and learn a little more of the history behind the law.

    That's a bit like arguing that the Civil War was about states' rights. True, but only because states rights were invoked to support slavery. In the same vein here, it's the auto and petroleum industry fighting a war against electric cars. If electric cars happen, the future arrives and the entire petroleum distribution chain will eventually have to transform (without the corresponding profit margin increases for the current players) and get commoditized as nuclear, wind, and solar can fully power the economy and people's transportation needs (no need to convert back to gas or diesel for transport).

    Elon Musk and Tesla believe the time has come, and have done a lot to prove it. Now it's time to see if Big Oil and their auto cronies can stop an idea whose time has come.

    --
    Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    1. Re:Disagree - This isn't about direct sales by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Well, Tesla isn't the only electric car company. In fact, existing car companies are in a better position to "commoditize" EVs when the time comes. Blaming the wrong folks is a distraction from a solution or change.

  72. Re:That worked for Clinton, only non-suck presiden by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

    You mean to tell me a Bush fought a war in Iraq and didn't lower taxes to pay for it?

    I jest. Mostly.

  73. Re:Dems had both houses. Reagan led with Dem major by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

    "For fiscal year 2003, the Senate, under Democratic control in 2002, failed to pass a budget resolution of any kind. For fiscal years 1999, 2005 and 2007, the House and the Senate failed to reconcile their different bills and pass a compromise measure. In these latter three cases, the Republicans were in the majority in both chambers of Congress."

    I guess the Dems finally caught up with the Republicans.
    Also, the Democratic congress did pass a joint budget resolution for FY2010 (in 2009).
    Is the budget really that big of a deal though? Whether it's implemented in one single continuing resolution, or 8 of them, does it really matter?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...
    Single budgets are kind of a joke starting in 2001, anyway, with the "war supplementals".
    2 budget resolutions died while Reagan was in office, as well. I never thought to criticize him for his bad leadership at the time.

  74. How to influence policy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We have to create a non-party, "NoParty", where the people elected will be nominated randomly from previous voting data (either registration roles or who actually voted in the last election). A computer (running open source software) will simply pick from a voter list for all offices in State and Federal elections, and the nominees have the opportunity to decline. The computer will simply pick more candidates to replace those that refuse.

    The person accepting the nomination would take a pledge to only accept the wage accompanying that office. There would also be no campaining. Just enough funds would be raised to put candidates on the ballot in all 50 states. Their party would not matter, nor would their gender, race, opinions, background, etc. The premise is that a warm body will do a better job representing the country than our batch of millionaire elected cronies. We are also much more likely to get people who are representative of the population, not 60% lawyers.

    Since a computer will pick different people each time, it would be unlikely that there would be any incumbants.

    Unlike Michael Moore's ficus tree campaign, protest votes for NoParty candidates have the ability to unseat elected officials. ElephantAss Party incumbants that have NoParty candidates running against them, might actually listen to their consituents. Maybe then, we can have our representative democracy back.

    1. Re:How to influence policy... by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      A superficially cool idea... However, it ultimately defeats the purpose of a representative democracy. That's more like a random sampled direct democracy. One could argue that may be a better system (I wouldn't), but it certainly wasn't how the country was framed... Though I suppose in all fairness, much of the government has changed just as radically over time.

  75. Re:That worked for Clinton, only non-suck presiden by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't forget the DMCA.

  76. Why car sales are interstate commerce by sjbe · · Score: 1

    The commerce clause doesn't seem to apply within a state, only between states.

    Cars are not usually made in the same state they are sold in. Dealers are basically (unnecessary) middlemen in a transaction between an automotive manufacturer and a car buyer. Its pretty easy to make the argument that this transaction is effectively an interstate transaction. The transaction between the dealer and the auto manufacturer is also usually an interstate transaction. The only thing that is "local" is transaction between the car dealer and the car buyer and that is a largely artificial construct.

  77. Re:Data suggests only suck so bad since 2000, 14 y by Enigma2175 · · Score: 2

    There's certainly hope that we can get another Kennedy/Reagan/Eisenhower* next time. Maybe if we try to choose based on COMPETENCE rather than just whoever most extremely mirrors our favored ideology.

    * (Not an actual Kennedy of course, the good one is dead. HW Bush / Bush Jr. should have taught us something about electing a guy because he was related to a decent president.)

    Good fucking luck. It's looking like 2016 is going to be Hillary (yet ANOTHER person who's only qualification for president is that she is related to one) and whatever republican manages to out-crazy the rest of them. It's going to be yet another episode of giant douche vs. shit sandwich. You can vote for the corporate tool or the corporate tool.

    --

    Enigma

  78. Re:That worked for Clinton, only non-suck presiden by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

    You can look at it another way. Good presidents sort things out, even if it makes them unpopular. Then someone else gets in a benefits from all the hard choices and improvements their predecessor made, so doesn't need to do much. Eventually though things start to be neglected and you need another unpopular president to fix things.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  79. Could be done by Congress... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From the summary:
    [quote]There's a legal issue here: the executive can't just wave state law aside. But they could suggest Congress write new laws instead of just noting that Congress would need to take action.[/quote]

    And we all know how dysfunctional Congress is right now. If the President came out today and said anything in favor of allowing Tesla to sell directly to customers *anywhere*, the House would start voting to make sure it never happened.

  80. the executive can't just wave state law aside??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They haven't waived, changed, or broken the law regarding the ACA. The head of the Executive branch simply informed the Executive branch that they were not to enforce a particular portion of said law until a specified point of time in the future when they expected that the entities affected by said portion of said law would have had sufficient time to become compliant with the required changes.

    This is no more or less illegal than a police officer *not* writing a ticket for someone jaywalking.

  81. The pub? by Medievalist · · Score: 1

    the pub try to block anything that President Obama wants to put forward.... th pub are far wars then an y group for over 60 years.

    My publican just draws pints for the public, down the pub. I don't understand how your public houses got such amazing powers!

  82. Punt? by philthedrill · · Score: 1

    There's a legal issue here: the executive can't just wave state law aside. But they could suggest Congress write new laws instead of just noting that Congress would need to take action.

    What difference would it make if the WH suggested this to Congress or not? The House isn't going to do anything. Why is it the WH that's punting on this issue?

  83. "the executive can't just wave state law aside." by eric_harris_76 · · Score: 1

    Are you sure about that? I seem to recall something about DEA agents making pests of themselves in states which legalized marijuana dispensaries.

    --
    There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
  84. Disclosure by crispin_bollocks · · Score: 1

    There was a time when manufacturers didn't have to even publish MSRP. The dealer network rather than direct sales was an early attempt at consumer protection. You probably take for granted the Monroney sticker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroney_sticker) on the window but it's not a voluntary disclosure.