Slashdot Mirror
The Daily Harassment of Women In the Game Industry
An anonymous reader writes: Brianna Wu, leader of a game development studio, has an article exposing the constant harassment of women in the games industry. She says, "I'm not writing this piece to evoke your sympathy. I'm writing to share with you what prominent, successful women in the industry experience, in their own words." She goes through the individual stories of several women targeted by this vitriol, and tries to figure out why it happens. Quoting: "We live in a society that's sexist in ways it doesn't understand. One of the consequences is that men are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women. ... This is why women are socialized to carefully dance around these issues, disagreeing with men in an extremely gentle manner. Not because women are nicer creatures than men. But because our very survival can depend on it. ... Growing a thicker skin isn't the answer, nor is it a proper response. Listening, and making the industry safer for the existence of visible women is the best, and only, way forward."
It isn't only women who dance around issues when socializing with the other sex. Men gets very soft around women. If you think they have a harassing attitude you should see how men treat other men.
Welcome to the internet where people come in droves to say all kinds of shit they can't say in the real world.
I'm not saying it's right... but anybody who has played call of duty multiplayer knows their sexual orientation, where their mother is and that they are going to be murdered. Anybody who has posted something controversial that has gotten any significant attention has gotten floods of hate emails.
This is how the internet is. It doesn't matter what color your skin is or what your gender is.
How do you defend yourself against accusations like that as a man? We are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women, can you really say thats not true without becoming another "point of proof" that they have?
I read the piece (well, ok, half of it). The writing and arguments is pretty decent, somewhat of a rarity when dealing with this subject. However, there is no way how truly widespread the problem is, given that the sample size is 4
And to hell with invisible women.
And this is why they need to go back to the kitchen! Sheezus.
Maybe its just me, but I've been in tech for 10+ years and have worked in everything from the military to startups to a giant multinational bank and I have never once witnessed any behavior that could be construed as untoward, nor has any been reported to me. Yet somehow it seems every time I look at Slashdot I see a story about 'brogrammers' and othe muh patriarchy bullshit.
Yes I'm a white male, check my privilege and whatnot but I have to imagine all of these stories are coming from rabid tumbler drones who support mandatory castration, because frankly I check my dick at the door every morning and I love and respect my female coworkers the same as I do male ones, gay ones, Indians, and whoever else has proven the merit to sit next to me.
Maybe this environment of sexism is isolated to the west coast or Texas or something, but up here in the northeast I can honestly say I don't buy this shit for a second, and the constant stories are really just fatiguing to those of us who have always done the right thing since day one.
...some guys are dicks it doesn't mean men in general are dicks, and just because some women are harassed by men it doesn't mean that women in general are harassed by men the way you want it to sound like. Get over yourself, you whiny finger-pointing shitbag. Judge individuals, not groups.
Just how annoying is this person that she generates that kind of hate ?
I have worked with/under/and above women and the only time I have ever seen anyone get this kind of reaction, male or female is when it is provoked or the people perpetrating it were a few punch cards short of a program.
We live in a society that's sexist in ways it doesn't understand. One of the consequences is that men are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women. ... This is why women are socialized to carefully dance around these issues...
What's there not to understand? Women wants EQUAL rights in just about anything that makes a MAN a MAN! In Sweden we're officially so feminist now that we even have a Feminist Political Party (FI - Feminist Initiative).
With all due respect and apologies to all women that has been harassed in any way anywhere by stupid and insecure individuals - I have to say I', FED UP with this feminist battle over the sexes that these days have gone WAY OVERBOARD. Women wants equal rights, but get maternity leave with FULL pay too. They want to leave 5'o clock when they're finished at work, but get paid as a man who works until the job is DONE.
Women wants to be treated like a woman - and still be equal to men. What happened to treating a MAN like a MAN? We were created DIFFERENTLY and we should APPRECIATE our differences, this doesn't mean it's harassment, but thanks to the absolutely out-of-proportion nagging about Female Rights in the media every day and every hour on every newsmedia that we can think of - it has made me somewhat biased AGAINST women whom I used to care so much about.
For that reason alone, I'm not even married. I don't want to - the women of today resemble men!
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
From the small sample of these accounts I've read, I get the sense that the women in question have a limited perspective. My impression is that in many cases, they encounter career or workplace challenges, and falsely assume that only women have those challenges.
Balancing work and family responsibilities? Please, do you know how many days I've left work after sunset and nearly cried for not having that time with my little kids?
Getting criticized harshly? Shoot, I deal with that often. I just don't blog about it. What I do is go home, try to shake it off, and maybe talk to my wife about how it's bothering me. I don't cry about it, and maybe this is a guy thing, but I cry almost never. But that doesn't mean it doesn't bother me.
And then there are some complaints which seem more about personal choices than about unfairness. I don't come across many good, female software engineers. You know what else I rarely come across? Female aspiring software engineers who spend their nights hacking away at code to improve their skills.
Now I have no doubt that some challenges really are unique to being a female developer. Sexual harassment is probably the top one. But that issue kind of gets drowned out of the conversation given all of the kvetching that some women have regarding other issues that they wrongly assume are peculiar to them.
We all value our anonymity (or perceived anonymity) on the net and yet it lets people's "unfiltered" sides out with terrible effect.
Anon Coward
No one deserves to be sexually harassed. End of story.
whatever
The problem is the other way round. Women are being socialised to constantly challenge men, and believe their opinion must always be heard and respected. And if it's not heard or disagreed with, it's sexist. Men understand that there is a certain pecking order and know how to engage correctly to get their view heard. And guess what? That means we need to share our opinions in a gentle manner too. More and more women expect men to act like their partner would toward them. That's not how it works, it's a dog eats dog world and in business, it's the modern jungle. We are all motivated by selfish desires whether we admit it or not, women just want to get a leg over like any one else, but cry sexist when they are pushed down (from other people who are also trying to rise to the top. There is no place for socialism in the work place. It's hierarchical like it or not.
Why do this have anything to do with sexism? The harassment is probably just anger sparked by your total inability to formulate a coherent argument. If you talk about, and people make that clear to you, don't hide under your sexism rock.
An industry dominated by socially-retarded autistics with mommy issues has problems with harassment of women?
Are you going to tell me the Pope is Catholic next?
Ya I think the problem is that forums bring out people who say some truly terrible things, and there isn't really much you can do about it. They say stuff to men too - but it's more death threats than sexist, and they say racist things to (or about) blacks and jews, muslims, latinos, and the chinese too.
The perils of anonymity I suppose.
It's not like it isn't a valid concern that people are out saying these things, but jews and blacks essentially face the same problem: if you go and look at a few hundred or a few thousand internet comments on any post there will be a couple of things that are basically just crazy people rambling. Unfortunately you don't know when random crazy people rambling on forums are actually a threat (if ever), and that they exist and want to say those things at all is a bit of an existential threat to your general day to day existence.
There isn't really an obvious prescription. You can educate people all you want about not saying offensive things, but a small handful of people will continue to say offensive things because they're trying to be offensive. And the anonymity of the internet lets you say both unpopular things which are valid, and unpopular things which are just nonsense.
What the heck is "triggering content"?
"One of the consequences is that men are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women. I think it threatens them in a very primal way, and male privilege makes them feel free to lash out."
And there's where you lost me. It's an uphill battle just like women moving into other positions than receptionist, personal assistant, and steno pool.
What about female nerds? And male nerds that actually give a damn about what women think and how women are treated?
But one of the silliest things I've ever experienced when gaming online was a (probably teenaged) female telling me that she was sodomizing my mom with a strap-on. Over and over again. Or another telling me that if I was her kid she'd have aborted me with a crowbar.
The Internet brings out the best in everyone!
do() || do_not();
And seeing the reactions so far not much is going to change about this shit. Disappointingly few people are even willing to entertain the possibility that the story might actually be true. Only coming up with excuses, bogus counter-examples ("I'm a guy who knows some women and I've never seen this happen") or just outright hatred and scorn. Way to go guys!
In the article it states that men think women got where they are in the gaming industry and offer nothing beyond their looks. Whether there are men that think *NO* women offer anything beyond their looks or not I cannot say. That is a retarded outlook and complete BS, of course, but I don't know anyone who has that attitude. What I will say, after working at Square/Squaresoft and another premiere game company which shall remain nameless is that ABSOLUTELY there are women that get their position/perks/assignment/title because of looks. Actually this happens in all tech related fields. This in no way discounts the achievements of women who earned it. To say that it does occur frequently does is not saying that ALL women experience or benefit from this. But absolutely, yes...I have known several women who had no business in their position and were there because they were attractive. Now..remember...I knew plenty of men who had no business in their position as well...they just did not get that position because of their looks. Why they got it, I don't know and any other reason other than talent/knowledge/experience/results is just as contemptible as getting it for looks. I only say this now, because I know the onslaught of "yeah, but men get..." which they do...I'm not disputing that. But to say that because there are men that get hired/promoted that don't deserve their job title means we cant' point out the fact that this exists for attractive women is just stupid..and that's what we're discussing here.
Remember there is much more to the gaming industry than being a developer/programmer/modeler/artist. Take a look around the social media/promotional parts of game companies at the people who are the bloggers/PR/show coordinators and tell me what you think. You think there are no unattractive /males that know a ton about gaming and can write/blog/coordinate social media in these companies? I think you can all think of some large as well as so called "indie" game companies that fit what I'm talking about. You think the people at industry events/social media events/booths are all the most knowledgeable, involved people in the various studios? And I'm not talking about booth babes/over the top crap. I mean real members of the team. Believe me...many, many women in the gaming industry know precisely why they got the opportunity they did.....
I've had the misfortune of working with many ex-videogame developers in my line of work. These people were basically uncivilized and reminded me of the mindset of what LAN parties were like back in the 90s when I was a teenager. Racism, sexism, ageism, profanity, and behavior that made you embarrassed to be around them in public. That kind of thing was funny when I was 16, but we were all immature then. It's very disturbing to see adults carry on like that.
Don't get me wrong, that industry has also created some very hard-working, kind people that I feel truly blessed to have had the fortune to work with. But those types are hard to come by, and the out of control manchild is all too common. A few of the most vitriolic, passive-aggressive trolls I've known were former EA prodigies (their words, along with every other kind of self-adulation you can think of) and they absolutely thought they walked on water. They'd show up to work drunk, or high, and brag to everyone about how much weed they smoked or how they partied all night. There was no self control and it spilled over into mistreating their peers.
There's a very sharp divide between the kind of people that go into games programming and all other programmers, and it's entirely about maturity, and at least in my experience it's uniquely American.
Not to say that I don't think some of this stuff goes on and that BOTH sexes aren't harassed, but in the article I didn't see a single instance that they had audio, video, or e-mail proof of their alleged harassment. There was a video of a troll flaming someone over a different of opinions in JRPGs but as anyone who has spent more than 5 minutes on Xbox Live, you know that this is the internet we live on. Just last night I was told I was going to be raped, along with my mother, for beating someone in a fighting game.
As a man who has been falsely accused of attempted rape by an attention-seeker in the past, I implore everyone to provide proof of their allegations , and to demand proof from others, before labeling it as a systemic issue. I don't enjoy being falsely accused of rape, and I don't enjoy being falsely stuck in to a harasser category because I work in tech and have a penis but won't label myself a 'feminist'. Furthermore, I feel that articles like this with claims but no evidence will just make people shy away from hiring Women for fear they are going to start claiming harassment when there is none.
I'll admit I was a little relieved after actually reading the article. I assumed it was talking about harassment of male game developers towards female coworkers, which would have really surprised me. I've worked in the industry for over fifteen years, and I've never even heard of any sort of sexism toward the women that were employed alongside me. It simply wouldn't have been tolerated at the places I've worked, so far as I know, and that's a good thing. While the programming department was, of course, largely male, the other departments (art, design, writing, production) were more evenly split. Everyone I've known has valued talent and hard work, and gender was pretty much an afterthought, at least so far as I could tell. Then again, I'm a guy, so I'm probably not quite as attuned to that sort of thing.
In fact, the article seems to be mostly about women (largely in the gaming press) interacting with the still-all-too-ugly disposition of the anonymous hoards of gaming fans that interact with them. That made a bit more sense to me, unfortunately, as such women are by nature already public figures, and will probably attract a lot more bile. Let's face it. People on the internet, including (especially?) gamers, are not only sexist, they're racist, homophobic, and unbelievably cruel at time. I care a lot about the gaming culture and community, and it pains me to admit this. There's a shocking disconnect between what would be acceptable in real life versus what's said online. I'd imagine very few of those idiots would ever have the courage to say those things to someone's face.
The only way to deal with this is absolute zero tolerance policies, at least on forums (literal or otherwise) that you have any control over. There's simply no excuse for this sort of behavior. The internet could really stand to collectively grow up a little, and realize that being anonymous shouldn't give you a free license to be an asshat. Frankly, I don't think that "normal" people turn into foul-mouth talking assholes when online and anonymous. My feeling is that they were assholes to begin with, but just didn't have the courage to say those things to anyone's face. These folks are not going to go away, I'm sorry to say. It would be nice if human nature could evolve a bit. But that doesn't mean anyone has to put up with this sort of shit any more than necessary. I'm also sorry to say that as a man, I'm pretty sure I'll never understand how a woman feels when she goes through something like this, and it makes me angry that so many would have to.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
Now she has five.
Thank you for your contribution.
don't care;didn't read
PlanetVulkan.com
Men in the industry dont get so many rape threats but they get death threats instedad.
In my opinion feminazis are mostly to blame. Recently a read a news that now males are now having more difficulties at school than girls but female teachers dont give a damn and someone said something like "she didnt want do do anything because since males have a better position in society that would go against women". If you get a divorce it doesnt matter if your wife if richer than you or if she is to blame, you will get screwed. Just by being male you are guilty. A "male only" club is sexist and there are complaints from women who want to be part of one but people dont have problems with "women only" organizations.
And now its a fashion ridicule men on television, Hollywood or ads but with a woman its sexist.
There are many men who feel menaced or are fed up with all this crap so I understand if they are aggressive.
..the headline read, but to garner page clicks Lance McFry told his editors to jazz it up a bit and imply it's the usual nonsense about 'brogrammers' and 'dudebros' in the industry.
The Internet is full of douchebags and assholes. Sorry, it can't be fixed unless you completely squash anonymity, which is so difficult as to be nearly impossible and certainly not something that would be a good thing.
Wow, never before has a username seemed so apt as yours.
I actually thought this was going to be some real world experiences, and not "Someone on the internet called me a cunt!", "Someone on the internet said they'd rape me!"
If you make your unpopular opinion known to the world online, expect people who disagree to come out and attack you. Expect more people to come out when they know you'll make a big stink about it. The main thing they're looking for is a reaction, that's just how the internet works, people can hind behind their computers and make all the threats they want and some people find joy in getting these responses from people. I was really looking forward to an article describing real world instances where people made these comments and threats. Not that I want to see that happen, but at least that's something that can be corrected when brought to light, the only way to stop trolls is to stop feeding them.
You wonder why we have so much dysfunction going on today?
Pervasive culture of butthurt = CHECK
Any perceived insult is by default true = CHECK
Special protected classes that can do no wrong = CHECK
Litigious society causing zero tolerance including honest mistakes = CHECK
Rampant immaturity = CHECK
General abdication of personal responsibility = CHECK
Let's pose a hypothetical, here. Let's say you (Linda, a woman) work for a company A. A has Big Boss, Linda, Tom, Fred and David as employees. The four of you report to Big Boss.
Situation A: Tom says something mean to Fred. Fred tells Tom to go fuck himself. Big Boss hears about it and calls them both into his office. Big Boss tells Tom to square his shit away or he's fired. Big Boss admonishes Fred to come see him about this in the future rather than responding in kind. Tom and Fred go on about their work and are a bit more careful about their interactions. This is a regular thing for Tom as he's brilliant but a loose cannon verbally. Big Boss talks to Tom and admonishes him that if he can't keep his asshole comments to himself, he will end up fired with prejudice.
Situation B: Linda says something mean to Fred. Fred tells Linda she can go fuck herself. Other employees hear the latter half of the exchange. Linda goes to Big Boss and complains about Fred using foul language around her. Big Boss calls them both into the office. Linda tells her story and Big Boss asks her to return to her desk. Big Boss then lectures Fred about the sensitivities of women in the workforce and how the small company cannot afford to defend against a "workplace harassment" lawsuit. Fred complains that Linda started the whole thing. Big Boss says it won't matter because a jury will default rule in favor of the woman because of articles like the above. Fred points out that justice is supposed to be blind. Big Boss points out that in cases of harassment, lay-wisdom holds that when women harass men, the men need to grow a pair, but when men harass women, it is only right and proper to expect better decorum out of the men. Big Boss never says anything to Linda because it could be construed as the abuse of power in a workplace environment.
Now, you may laugh at this but these are actual shit storms I've seen happen. The problem is that while most women aren't self-entitled whiners and most men are not adolescent assholes, we can't catch a break because the lawyers and bean-counters won't let a manager fire the shit out of someone just for being a prick/cunt. As George Takei said, we've reduced ourselves to the lowest common denominator of butthurt.
if you 'have' to do something with your girlfriend, then maybe you should find someone else?
I don't understand this stupid idea that a spouse can't enjoy something the other spouse does if for nothing more then to share in their enjoyment.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
It's not news for them, either. It's not news for anyone.
It's not news because it has no basis in reality. There's no objective data. There are no scientific studies. There's nothing here except made up, misandric, toxic black propaganda.
Get the fuck out of here with your bullshit.
Is this what we've come to? Pretending online trolls are a problem specifically for women?
Here's a hint for the author of that article: Trolls are adept at identifying that which will get under your skin, and will hit that button repeatedly as long as it keeps spitting out a pellet ( much like this article ). If we're going to generalize it, men don't get this particular brand of trollling because it doesn't work on us. Ultimately, it has very little to do with sexism.
But no; let's work on trying to make ourselves a better brand of troll. Let me know how that works out for you.
( and no; had the author been a man, I'd have responded in the same manner )
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
How many times does crap like this need to be slapped down before women realize that they aren't the only ones that deal with it.
Seriously, I've gone through several periods of getting my ass handed to me. I didn't bitch and complain. I didn't look for reasons why it was happening to me. I didn't point out the obvious ones when then were there. I put my head down and fought through it.
Maybe the feminist wackjobs should take a hint and do the same. But, that would mean putting up with the same amount of crap that that men do. And that is the sort of equality that they just can't have.
men say this stuff to other men all the time.
You don't think men call other men bitches, cunts, etc in games? The abuse is pretty common.
The difference here as usual is that women expect to be treated differently. They don't think that's what they want but it is actually what they want.
And I'm okay with treating women better. However, if that's the new rule, then women need to acknowledge it. That's the only price. If women so much as acknowledge that men are treating them with kid gloves it short circuits most of the PC equality arguments.
As it should.
If women don't want that and want to be treated equal... then fine... but that means not complaining when you're treated like a man. Which is going to mean getting cussed out by people that will LAUGH at you when you cry. People that will show you ZERO pity when you break down. People that will if anything hold you in contempt for being so weak.
Are you prepared for that ladies? If so... game on.
If not... completely fine. But then we're playing by the old rules of male/female relations. Which means you're just a girl.
We've seen this PC crap try to gain purchase in the tech community for years. Linus Thorvald recently got told to be nicer women and that he shouldn't cus out people that he thinks are doing a crappy job.
He told her that she wasn't tolerating his culture and his way of doing things... and that he wasn't going to change anything.
I'll hold the same position here for the same reasons. If the girls want to be treated like girls then that's fine. If they want to be treated like men, that's fine. But stop trying to eat your man cake and have your girl perks too. Its either/or.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
anecdotes
Prove very little and when published in a form like this prove even less. Sexual harassment and assault are highly politicized and in many cases overstated. When the mere accusation of sexual harassment in the form of making dongle jokes in a private conversation can end careers it's blatant sexism to claim it's not taken seriously enough. Sexism? yes: spreading fear that men are abusive and dangerous.
Ive personally never heard of a man in the games industry getting rape threats for having an opinion.
Death threats are every bit as common. Being a different gender means the hatred may be sexualized. "No rape threats against men" is a piss poor measure. How about coming up with some actual numbers reflecting the supposedly heightened hostility against women? Because no I won't take your word for it.
Many men believe women have no worth in the games industry beyond appearance.
The video game industry is particularly egregious at only representing women as sex objects. As such, many gamers are trained to only see women in that context.
Would you care to back that up with facts? A survey maybe? Because it sounds like you pulled it straight from whence many of your other claims come. One sexist asshole does not a culture make. There are many games with strongfemale characters. And don't say sexy clothes prove gamers are sexist unless you want to talk about the thousands of hulking, musclebound men in games.
This kind of harassment leaves long-lasting damage. It affects our friendships, and can cause us to be distant from others.
So your overly sensitive friend proves that the same hatred is worse when leveled against women? Equality means standing up for yourself. If you want to be a damsel in distress you don't want equality.
Women in the industry are told by men what is valid for us to feel.
No, women in general are told they're special and need everyone to cater to them. Then the gaming industry didn't cater as much garnering feminist ire. You can feel whatever you want but so can I.
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
So let us assume that everything in the article is true. Let us also assume that normal people of either gender when faced with the examples in the article would have roughly the same reactions, fear and concerns as depicted. Everyone here is good at abstract thinking, I know you can do it. The question is should something be done about it and what?
I can't imagine what can be done to make any of this better. Anyone with any sort of public presence faces these problems. Maybe the Internet changes the volume and removes any need to filter what is said but it's certainly the same sort of problem. Try being on the board of you neighborhood association and you will know true fear. Everyone not just knows where you live but it's a short walk to do something truly terrible. It only gets worse the higher up the public celebrity chart you go.
In the end the only answer is to ignore it. That or change human nature and it's desire to attack people they disagree with, don't like or are bored with.
There are two sayings that are quite relevant here...One is "People are idiots" and the other is "Stupidity should hurt." Internet Trolls and Gaming Trolls - and trolls in general - have no life, no social skills, and get their (yes, that "their" includes both males and females) jollies off of making other people miserable. Nothing to see here. Just trolls and troglodytes being stupid on the internet.
Based on my discussions in the past, I'm guessing the mostly male audience here will say something like "not here" or "I've never seen that". I am reminded of a (financially struggling) friend of mine who posted on her blog talking about the myth of white priviledge and her other (entirely white) friends saying "Right on!". In casting herself as a vicitm, she tried to say that the experiences of minorities were not unique.
No one here, unless you've been a woman, knows what it's like to work in an overwhelmingly male (and foul-mouthed;)) culture. And yes, it's possible to overcome that treatment -- but that doesn't it right.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
Person tried xbox live.
Person interacted with the xbox live folks/regulars.
Person left xbox live.
This person/womans experience sounds like a perfectly average xbox live experience. Where is the problem?
I don't believe it actually happens that way. Would you care to debate the point?
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
She's telling the stories of four different women in the article, so your point is completely without merit
Before I read the article, before I decided whether there was a legitimate point, before I even had a chance to introspect whether or not I, personally, held some socially unacceptable viewpoints at an unconscious level, before all this, I saw the trigger warnings.
So before I read the article and judge it on it's own merits, let me talk about trigger warnings for a second, and what they seem to say.
My own personal experience with them tends to be very limited, but a casual perusal indicates that the vast majority of users appear to promote misandry - that is, man-hating - as an acceptable form of discrimination. There appears to be a fundamental belief that males, either consciously or not, are simply evil, often comically so. One site even referred to consensual, loving, heterosexual sex as "a man masturbating into a woman," and the author indicated their belief that any male-female interaction was one form of abuse or another, with the woman always the victim.
For lack of a better phrase, this level of irrational hate has become their religion, and it colors their views. Like the person who only has a hammer in their tool box, every problem appears to be a because-of-man nail, and we know how well that sort of thinking works.
So what the trigger warnings before this article seems to say is "I have a better chance of getting truthful and unbiased coverage from Fox News in an election year than I do of finding the barest glimmer of a hint of truth in the following text."
For all of you trying to turn this into a men's rights issue, just stop.
You're embarrassing my gender.
Yes there are some unfair things that happen to men. Yes there are some real issues.
But we aren't talking about those issues right here in this post. We're talking about women right now, so let's stick to the topic.
Even as a man I find it highly annoying that the Internet jackass squad has to jump into the middle of every single conversation about women and cry "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ?!?!". Just fucking stop it already. Write your own blog post about men's issues and submit it to slashdot and we can discuss it over there.
Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
Quoting: "We live in a ... This is why
society that's sexist in ways it doesn't understand. One of the consequences is
that men are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women.
women are socialized to carefully dance around these issues, disagreeing with
men in an extremely gentle manner.
Women in the workplace get to bear the burden of the venom our mothers have pumped in our mind during childhood, the venom caused by disappointments with our fathers, in their lives, careers, parents, friends and so on. We get low self esteem, depressed, misogynist and as a result fail our teen age relationships, exacerbating the situation. The cycle intensifies as long as we can't forgive our parents, which can take a lifetime.
Crying because you try to profit off angsty teenage boys and seek out their attention on blogs then became a lightning rod for their sexual frustration and just general douchiness it isn't going to change it.
Try changing the attention seeking part of that equation and nobody will give a shit about you, male or female.
When someone is trying to be as mean as possible, they tend to focus on subject matter which is as mean as possible. Anyone hear of a death threat to a Jew?
Her being on the Anita's side if enough discredit for me.. next.
Perhaps, but adults need to take some responsibility for the situations they put themselves in. End of story. Crying victim every time you're criticized does not encourage respect, and that's what these professional victim blog articles are all about.
I am a middle aged man and I am pretty good at multiplayer FPS.
Anything about rape, sodomy, shit covered donkey-dick is pretty much par for the course of things thrown at me when I play. This being a "I am a woman victim" is bullshit. It happens to everyone, men too.
I don't know how often it happens to women that the threats contain references to using "stabbing instruments" to create additional body openings for the shit-covered-donkey-dick to use. I get those suggestions all the time.
YMMV,
This thin-skinned attitude in workplaces drives me nuts.
I worked for a company back in the late 90s, where my nickname varied between 'drag-act' and 'monkey boy' depending on whether my shirt-sleeves were rolled up or not. Did I take it up with HR?
No, I came up with more withering and amusing nicknames for my co-workers. We bonded. Women don't seem to be able to do this easily.
Don't let the door hit yer ass on the way out.
I assume that some of those that come up with comments as despicable as those in the article will have daughters. Do they treat their daughters like that? Don't they care if their daughters are treated like that? What's wrong with them?
"[T]he best, and only, way forward." Or what? They'll queef on us?
Fuck bitches.
I was working in the video game development industry for a number of years and in that time, I never once saw women being treated an differently than men.. although I have heard stories of it happening at other places. i think it depends, therefore, on the types of people that a particular game studio might tend to employ.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
So you 1) hate people who are better than you and 2) hate Americans.
Do you hate all that is good, or are these some of the exceptions?
Brianna had some cheese with that whine.
It isn't news for them, either, because this isn't news.
It's a handful of supposed anecdotes, of dubious veracity, being used to perpetrate toxic, shameless, disgusting misandry.
This shit belongs on Jezebel, not here.
Get this shit off of MY Slashdot.
I'll see to it that my daughters don't embark on careers until after their children are in school. I don't want them to end up bitter cat ladies robbed of any chance at happiness by the feminazis. Careers can wait, but the biological clock starts sputtering around 35 and dies quickly thereafter.
if you 'have' to do something with your girlfriend, then maybe you should find someone else?
I don't understand this stupid idea that a spouse can't enjoy something the other spouse does if for nothing more then to share in their enjoyment.
This is one of the most stupid things I have ever read on slashdot, and that is saying alot. If nothing else because the slashdot posting scale does not have a lower boundary for stupid posts.
Pairing up does not mean that you have to give up on your identity or your interestest.
So what if my spouse likes hobby/activity abc/def ?
and I think it is a waste of time and would rather spend MY time on "stamp collection". ?
Should I force my spouse to change? Should I abandon my stamp collection hobby?
Your implied suggestion is so stupid that I don't know what. Either me or my spouse have to give
up and realign to new interests. Who/What would this benefit?
Are you an idiot? Or you have never had a relation lasting more than a few weeks?
Mine is lasting 25 years plus now and going strong. We, me and my spouse, are not idiots though which means it is easier for us than for dysfunctional fool like you.
If you think you can get a community of men with above average to genius IQs to buy this bullshit, and internalize the misandry that comes packaged along with it, you're going to be sadly disappointed.
This is some grade-A bullshit.
White knight gamma detected. You are helping women destroy civilization.
... you have no idea what you're talking about.
The stereotypical neckbeards are the minority.
I'm a little segfault, short and stout.
More like, "Quit whining. Being female doesn't make you special. Quit trying to dictate how we behave. If it's good enough for us, and if you want to join us, then it's good enough for you. If not, fuck off and create your own company or industry or society."
You're a gamma white knight helping women destroy civilization, so feel free to fuck off, too.
This is why women are socialized to carefully dance around these issues, disagreeing with men in an extremely gentle manner. Not because women are nicer creatures than men. But because our very survival can depend on it. ... Growing a thicker skin isn't the answer, nor is it a proper response. Listening, and making the industry safer for the existence of visible women is the best, and only, way forward."
These days, it's men who are being 'carefully socialized' to dance around feminist gynocentric expectations and value systems. I believe HR departments call it 'sensitivity training.' Since proof of guilt is rarely required, employment for men is now a mad dash in a mine field of passive aggressive barbs just waiting to trigger whenever a woman is pissed enough to throw the book at a man. we're told this is justified because men alone engage in this behavior en masse, and that women are (ironically) damsels in distress who have no say or part in their situations, nor are they capable of similar behavior. This crap flooded hollywood and tv in the 90s, and now we're getting the full deluge of the same propaganda in the gaming scene. What bullshit. Polygon loves it, though, as they post a lot of it. The fact they shut off comments for this article speaks volumes about its logical and probably factual integrity.
We don't give people respect who haven't earned it and/or have given us reason to take it from them. Derek smart anyone? People still give john romero shit for daikatana even though he was a big part of the success of doom. He's revered for the good he's done and demonized for his stillborn shitpiles. This is how it's supposed to work. We're not supposed to hold some people above reproach based on their sexual organs or their race or any other irrelevant attribute, as that is the very definition of privilege. This makes the whole article 180 degrees out from the truth. Growing a thicker skin IS the answer as it allows one to stop and look at criticism objectively instead of immediately flying into a tantrum and/or a flurry of passive aggressive countermaneuvers. It allows one to ignore the ad hominems and other fallacies from any communication, whether it's well written constructive criticism or vitriolic trolling, and extract any truth from it.
These days, we are seeing more and more extreme reactions for ever more mundane situations from a culture bred to be as intolerant of criticism as possible. Everything has to be positive. All the time. No 'negative nancies' or 'debbie downers' allowed. The fact this precludes talking about the truth of things more than 50% of the time is lost on these social engineers. All that matters to them are feelings and consensus; the facts and truth be damned.
The term 'safer' here is used in place of 'more amenable' to make the situation sound more dire than it is. The bottom line is, very very very few men are truly guilty of assaulting women. I believe the stats on college campuses nationwide is 53 in one year...53 out of millions of students on thousands of campuses. This is NOT an epidemic, and I'll bet it's more than the number of assaults by male game developers and staff. If you are assaulted, don't whine on the internet. Call the police. The reason most of these women don't is because they know their claims are bullshit. Otherwise, they should act like the adults they want to be treated as, taking warranted criticism for what it is, regardless of format, and discarding the rest.
I'm sick and tired of the attitude among feminists that only women ever suffer adversity, and that it's men's purpose in life to bend over backwards to prevent women from suffering any indignities, injuries, or setbacks in life or career.
If anything my experience female programmers on average are more competent. If they have any "failing" it is that they aren't blowhards which seems to actually work in many occupations. I don't know how many male programmers that basically claim "I came into that company and put a 2 year project to bed. Without me they would still be using punch cards." When the reality is that he worked as an intern formatting hard drives. Then when you look at his code it is the million monkeys with a million keyboards experiment done by a single programmer. Whereas the female programmers that I have met tend to take a task, finish a task, take a task, finish a task; no glory.
What I would say is that the worst male programmers tend to compensate for their terrible skills by being louder whereas the bad female programmers tend to either leave or find different jobs within tech.
But at the same time my experience within various organizations is that female programmers weren't treated any differently that I could see. It certainly wasn't ever a living episode of Mad Men.
So if I had to guess it is that any culture that sounds like what she is writing about comes from the top down. Programmers are rarely social gods; so if an asshole marketing type were running the company they might start taking their cues from him. Then I suspect it could get really bad really quickly.
Its the full-retard tin foil hat of 'feminism'. Get rid of it ladies, it never helps your argument.
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What it all comes down to is control. It's usually male on female, though not an ironclad rule. When you give up the controlling aspects of your life, you learn how much you're freed. Ask Hitler, on how controlling someone leads to a wrong end.
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Now that was funny. Thanks for sharing.
"Once we've identified and embraced our sickness, we'll have strength...and that's when we get dangerous." - John Waters
My daughter and I were talking about how much personally directed sexual violence geek girls must endure. She was talking about the obsessive personally detailed threats Anita Sarkeesian creator of Feminist Frequency endures from the male geek community on a continual basis. Some of these are threats include her personal details needed to carry them out. This is really scary stuff.
We were talking about this and she casually let drop:
"I received my first rape threat in a forum when I was eleven"
She casually went on:
"Eleven is the age when geek girls first start discovering the Internet and make their first posts. They comment on a game about some small feature they don't like. Some guy will flame them with a rape threat"
This is very shocking for a dad to hear his daughter say. "My eleven year old little girl!" She is twice as old now. But her saying it so casually is deeply disturbing.
My daughter has assimilated it. She has grown a "thick skin". I think she enjoys giving back as good as she gets. But not the violent rape stuff.
It is very sad that the male geek culture permits such abuse to go on.
We MEN need to start talking about this. We MEN need to ostracize the men who threaten rape.
* It is never funny.
* It is not "just a joke".
* It is not harmless.
It is really scary for geek girls because there is always a risk that it might be real. There are unbalanced men out there after all.
How do I change this? I start by writing about it. I talk with other people. I try to get MEN to understand the problem and see how scary it is for women.
... are not sexist; at worst they are hostile in general. The fact the Targets are Women do not mean they are sexist; it does mean the Aggressors need to change Their behavior but it does not mean They are sexist. Also, having more than just assertions would be more convincing; perhaps documenting such incidents and post such documentation somewhere? If removing the hostility is that important, why not present the evidence?
I'm a man, I consider myself a feminist, no I don't feel threatened the slightest by feminists and feminism, I have friends of both gender that identify as feminists.
What's the big deal?
Is it so hard to consider that something is true even if it's completely out of your personal experience?
"Men too" is not an answer, because the harassment and threats that women face is disproportionate to what men face.
How old where you when you first feared to be raped? Now go ask your female friends.
A significant portion of women in the western world has endured sexual abuse and probably still bears the scars of that.
That's women that you see in your life, that you meet daily. Only they don't tell you.
Yes, men are also abused. It is a problem, but it's nowhere as common and nowhere as socially acceptable.
You don't know everything. Your perception is not all-encompassing. Your experience is not the same as those of the opposite gender.
Deal with it.
ANYONE feels entitled to vent when you're on the Internet- you're relatively anonymous and there just aren't any real consequences for being a total douchebag. Sure, every once in awhile someone may get a visit from the men in black for threatening the prez or some such but overall no one ever comes after these guys. Slashdot is full of this stuff!
Your sex carries no power on the internet.
And that's their real issue.
They don't get special anymore treatment when it's online.
Women get that 'equality' they always thought they wanted.
Online, the world will rip on you like it will any other guy.
And once we know you're female it just becomes another thing to rip on.
It's nothing personal. It's just the way people are. Bitch.
We live in a society that’s sexist in ways it doesn’t understand. One of the consequences is that men are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women. I think it threatens them in a very primal way, and male privilege makes them feel free to lash out.
Let's just say this is true. Problem is, anyone who would put it like that is sure to be pissing people off constantly, of any gender. At that point it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I tell a woman that she can't handle my criticism because women are too sensitive and then tell her that she only feels free to tell me that I'm an asshole because of her other deficiencies, then she will think ill of me. Not for being a man, but for being an asshole. Whether what I'm saying is true is completely beside the point. Which leads directly to:
Often, I’ll see people lashing out at women they perceive as too bitchy or too confrontational. They don’t understand that we are the sum of our experiences. The toxic environment causes us to change.
Let's just say this is true too. Even then, if I'm an asshole to a woman and then tell her that it's all women's fault because of the toxic environment women put me in, well, she's very unlikely to think that that changes anything. It doesn't matter whether it's true, it matters whether I'm being an asshole. It's my behavior, as an adult I'm responsible for it.
Recruiting women to crack down on undesired men is all these sort of pieces are good for, and that goes down a road of us-versus-them thinking that can only make the matter worse. What's frustrating is that few people of any gender have any desire to create toxic environments for anyone else, so it really should be an easy sell that that's something we should do something about, yet in some baffling way pieces like this manage to fail at that and pull the world in the opposite direction.
Please, please read the article before posting. Most of the comments I've seen here are basically along the lines of "white men get harassed too, it's the internet, get used to it."
Let me tell you that, if you're a guy, you have no idea what it's like. Absolutely no idea. I have a female gamer friend who occasionally writes to the public and I have seen what it's like (but not experienced it personally), and the harassment I witnessed is totally unlike anything I've experienced in my life. Death threats are child's play compared to some of this stuff. The article is totally right. It changes you, it makes you guarded and untrusting.
Seriously, read the article.
...like Brianna is very sensitive to being criticized by men.
Bigoted much?
It's that easy!
It's OK Bender, there's no such thing as 2.
I don't believe an anonymous person, probably a male, posting a woman't address and telling her he's going to rape her some night is a position she thought she'd be in because she decided to work in the gaming industry.
It's certainly not a position I think I'm putting myself in when I apply for a job. I wouldn't call it criticism either. That crosses the line from juvenile and possibly hurtful speech to a threat one might have to take seriously.
Propaganda in Soviet Union was created the same way. Something was made true by repeating it in articles until people started believing it. Even though there were no facts behind the story and everything was made up, eventually people took it for a fact. This strategy was made up at 20-s 30-s in SU and was used till the end of its fall.
For some wacky reason some pressure groups today act the same way. We have this massive influx of articles, all with the same theme, yet no facts, no actual names, no logs. Point of these articles as in Soviet Union was to create certain atmosphere. In SU it was to create fear, distrust, everybody could be capitalist spy. Today everybody could be harasser, sexist, rapist etc.
And eventually these articles will create the atmosphere they want. Its just a matter of repeating the theme until its finally in your head permanently.
While this comment is clearly a troll, it highlights nicely that trolls can target either gender. The problem these women are experiencing with people on the internet isn't to do with the entire male gender, it has to do with internet trolls. There are plenty out there, and when you strike one down two more take their place. And while most trolls may be men, most men are not trolls.
To being criticized by women? I think not. Or the species would have gone extinct thousands of years ago.
Personally, I like women that can stand up or themselves. I am admittedly a bit of a jerk and I don't think a relationship with me would survive if a girlfriend or wife wasn't capable of telling me when I'm being an asshole. As long as its constructive criticism, I'm OK with it.
Have gnu, will travel.
I'm a rare advocate of preventing rapists from ever having children. Face it, rape worked for the whole evolution of humans. Those aggressive traits worked and the evolutionary pressures rewarded them. There is no reason society can't decide to finally do something about promotion of that behavior into the gene pool. Males are genetically evolved towards the behavior and you can't condition all of them properly from birth to get the results you demand (thank goodness we don't know how because those skills would be used to control people in bad ways... and what we know already is abused.) Perhaps this could lower the need to dominate as well and cut down on domestic abuse (another big source for rape and similar abuse... we don't even have good stats on raped partners because they don't report it or rationalize.) Geeks are probably better than most male demographics at controlling their urges - the anonymous tools free inhibitions for EVERYBODY not just geeks.
No, it is not a slippery slope to eugenics and if you think so you need to look up the slippery slope fallacy.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
That is why when you play online shooters, which attract many immature males, "faggot" is the default insult. They are insecure about their sexuality, as most young men are, and thus being called gay is one of the more hurtful things to them. they externalize that, of course, and thus that is what they use by default against others. However if they find something that works better, they'll go after that. Race, age, nationality, etc, etc.
They are assholes, sociopaths sometimes, they want to hurt others and they choose whatever they think is the most effective way to do it.
For that matter humans in general do it, women included. Bill Burr ha some hilarious bits, based in truth as the best comedy is, about women steering a losing argument towards personal attacks against their man. Saying he has a little dick, is a momma's boy, that kind of thing.
Well, that really happens. It isn't because women are some horrible creatures, but rather because they are using the insults they have learned will hurt the worst, when they get mad and decide to turn to insults. It's what people do when they lash out.
The difference between a normal person and a troll/asshole/ITG/sociopath and so on online is that most people do it only when they are angry, when they are lashing out at another person. These asshats do it for fun, just to get a rise out of people, and so on.
It is not something to be celebrated, or even tolerated (in any community I moderate trolling is a fast way to the banhammer) but trying to act like it is a problem limited to or directed at women is silly.
Here's an informative response to one of those trolls, pay no attention to his bad math it doesn't distract from the central point.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
I am amazed the videon on the linked page was used as an example of "Letters to women in the game industry" as though the recipient being a woman had anything to do with it. FFS with good examples like rape threats to choose from, why was that video even there?
If I was trying to choose a video such that a rational person would dismiss claims of sexism as overblown, I would choose that one!
If you haven't seen it, the video on the linked page has an extended rant by some idiot who is sore because someone dared to criticise a game in a genre he likes. His overreaction was pathetic, but not sexist. He was entirely focussed on defending his shitty game genre, to the exclusion of any sort of thought, sexist or otherwise. He did not say or imply that the recipient was a woman.
He made sexism-based insinuations about the recipient's mother's sexuality, but that is common from male to male, so again nothing to do with the recipient being a woman.
I wish people would use the numerous real examples of sexism and mysogyny, not stupid rants by stupid people that don't even have anything to do with it.
So, you are against gender equality?
When people say "that happens to men also", they are basically saying that it's not a womens issue, it's an issue for everybody, and women getting the same is just what they asked for when they wanted gender equality.
If we want gender equality, we need to accept that these problems are a problem for everybody, and work on fixing them. Or we can go back to the old ways of women needing special protection, and men just need to "man up".
Your post seems to be advocating the second choice.
Sorry, but this can't be generalized. I do work in the games industry as a Lead of programmers, mostly men but some women. I can speak for our whole game team to say that there is no such harassment. Those cases are very bad indeed, but it's not like this happens everywhere in the game industry on a regular basis. In our company, this kind of behaviour would get you fired for sure.
That is all.
All i hear from her sounds like 'WHHHHAAAAAA'
from the TFA:
I have a guy who’s writing fan fiction starring me and him. It’s a pornographic fanfic, and he's on chapter 6. He anonymously submits chapters through my website with no identifying info or explanation. I just save them in a folder in case the guy turns out to be a stalker. But it's creepy and gross. I feel violated.
Because Hugh Jackman, Daniel Radcliffe don't have female fanfic writers fantasizing on having sex with them.
Seriously, as feminists like to say to us: "grow a pair".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgeLpFTNn8g
Even outside of the extreme examples, women have a tough time in the competitive gaming scene and are immediately written off when they show the slightest bit of incompetence. For example, take Pyrion flax and Sheever from the Dota 2 competitive scene. Pyrion is arguably worse than Sheever (he himself would probably admit that), but he is given more airtime and taken more seriously. Here's a video that shows blatant sexism among Dota 2 casters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
I can't seem to find the video, but on day 3 of the Dota 2 TI4 championship (in the C9 vs VG match), there's a point where Sheever tries to say something about the lineups but is interrupted by other casters three times in a row. She ends up getting to say nothing before the game starts.
I don't think there's much that can be done to get women equal and fair treatment in gaming and computer-related fields, but I'm almost certain the situation will improve itself over time as more women participate. In the meantime, we just have to try to not be such dicks to the outliers and to not look at people through the lenses of gender, race and nationality.
Doesn't matter what you say you are sexist by the very nature of the article. We (the readers) should not be able to tell the sex of the author if it's meant to provoke thought on why women get such a hard time. At the end of the day both sexes specialise in different areas, and so do men. Either sex can exhibit traits of each other (feminie men and masculine women) so all the generalisations are total BS.
You'd be harassed less if you weren't uptight. Also, if you brought in cookies or sandwiches.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
(52 yo, earning a living as a programmer since 1985)
I have found, the hard way, that the best method for dealing with idjits like these is to push back. Typically they are not trying to be racist/sexist/whateverist - they are trying to raise themselves up by pushing you down. Once they realize that won't work with you, they generally back off.
You could take the issue to HR, but HR being HR, that doesn't often work well. Reply in (un)kind or calling their bluff works best, IME.
"This is why women are socialized to carefully dance around these issues, disagreeing with men in an extremely gentle manner. "
In my 40 years on this planet if have NEVER encountered this.
Seriously, I hear the claim a lot that anti-social behavior causes this bullshit. Frankly I disagree. These people very much like to socialize; they're just totally outta control about the way they go about it. Between the victim complexes, the anger management issues, exaggerating one's competence w/ computers, and the desire to label one's self "King/Queen of the Nerds" because you know a little bit of trivia about certain genres of entertainment but possess no technical skills, I very much communicate as little as possible to do my day job and then go home and do my own thing. Socializing with "fellow nerds" is almost at the very bottom of the totem pole nowadays. Occasionally I go to a strip club; forgive me oh goddesses of feminism.
I have felt unsafe because of the comments men are making about me.
I often feel like my personal security is threatened when im around men.
I have been sexually harassed.
I have also bee harassed with rape threats online.
But im not a woman, so none of it matters. I just need to buck up & get over it. ...Be a man as it were.
It's easy to pretend you're a woman online. You should try it, as an experiment. It'll get you a sample of the actual numbers that you're looking for. After you do, your opinion on the subject will be a lot more interesting, whatever it is that you discover.
My challenges with the feminist movement fall into 4 general categories:
1) Men and women are actually different (I learned this, in all places, public high school biology)
2) Women cannot have it all, great career, great family, great body, great social life, etc... (neither can men) practical real-life choices of time have to be made
3) Women do have flaws (just like men) and do simliar things (though in a different form with eachother and to men)
4) Many people (men in this case) are A-holes to others just cause they are. And yeah while it can take a form of some sort of "ist" label, at the root they are just A-holes, and if you take away how they express it (women this, black this, gay that), they will just change the form (cutting you off on the road, making fun of fat people, etc.)... cause they are A-holes. BUT THAT DOESN"T MEAN ALL MEN ARE! And I, for one, have grown tired of being on the wrong-end of the gross-generalizations and stereo-types being applied to all men, so that women can change the gross-generalizations and stereo-types used by men. (See #3 above.)
The world is a simple place when you follow the Golden Rule: "Do onto others..."
This whole thing just makes me so mad. Women should not be some special protected class. They're just as capable as men- or so its been hammered into me from birth. Of course- that's not true. We lower standards for women all the time. We have separate bathrooms, separate standards for athletics, etc. If you expect to paid the same, treated the same, etc maybe you should expect to have to deal with 'workplace'-type harassment like the rest of us (ie in silence). And I'm not want to yell 'bitch' at women (at least not directly).
The reality is men basically have to suffer through this harassment too and the difference is they are expected to put up with it. They don't get in a tizzy over it. Women need to get over themselves. BOTH men and women suffer from 'workplace' harassment. Women DO seem to take it harder than men and have a harder time getting over it. Then again- we're also telling them that they are fragile, etc (men and women raise girls to be 'that way').
If the worst thing that happens to you is someone call's you a cunt after you've actually been a cunt you've got it easy. And that's coming from someone who's actually been harassed in much more significant and severe ways. I'm gay- but it's not my sexuality that's the 'problem'. It's my opinions. Speaking out against the majority view is not a way to attract friends- particularly in school (ie when I was younger).
When your part of a class that makes up roughly 50% of the population and are considered near equal and in practice near equal compared to other vulnerable classes you've hardly got anything to fear, or bitch about. OMG I said it. Are you going to go off and cry about it now? I actually hope you do. Selfish bitch.
Then again stupid comes to mind when reading about 'sexual' harassment against women. And this isn't to diminish the women who actually are being physically abused, etc. While I'm all for protecting the vulnerable I'm not sure protecting the stupid should be the first priority (ie the women who are promoting this crap, NOT necessarily women in general, I have nothing against women as a class). If you walk down a back ally in NYC at 2AM alone you've got nobody to blame when you get raped. Yes- it was wrong that some guy raped you- but provided your not also dead you'll live through it. Get over it. We ALL have to use our heads a little and if your taking risky actions and get screwed it's hardly something to cry about to the public. As a personal example: As a gay man I'm not going to head down south and start making out with another guy. It's not that I shouldn't be able to. It's that it's a really DUMB move. While I might make out with a guy in protest in the south it would only be as part of a GROUP with other people. That is I'm reducing the risk of violence against me while achieving some objective.
Populations that actually have something to bitch about: LGBT, people of other creeds/skin colors, and particular sub-classes of women (black/latino women, etc), in particular certain segments of the disabled, the poor, the uneducated, those will diminished educational abilities, 'illegal' immigrants, people in the third world (generally), people living under repressive regimes and are actually being targeted (including the US/Europe/etc), etc.
So basically it's the same shtick: women want equality except for when it's in a woman's interest (in this case preserving her ego) for women to be legislated superiority.
The sad part isn't that abuse happens, the sad part is that we keep lining up to give women special privileges because they're the "weaker sex" all while attempting to champion the cause of equality.
facepalm
I don't know any women for whom threats like this have not become real at some point. (whatever stats say, assume that probably only 1 case in 20 is actually reported and that's a fair rate)
That's one of the key differences. For most men, these threats are just "noise".
Google "missing women" if you want a clue about how real it can get.
This is why I'll continue to argue for women's rights. In a world where a woman can walk down a street at night without risk of assault, so can anyone.
PS: this applies for LBTQ-type folks too.
The reality is men basically have to suffer through this harassment too and the difference is they are expected to put up with it.
No, I'm not. When some lard-ass starts shouting, pounding the table and threatening people physically, I can back him down. Not many women can.
Management needs to make it clear that this behavior will not be tolerated. Or the company will end up being run by Bubba and all the intellectual talent will move on. This is fine if you are in the business of digging ditches. Not so much in the software business.
Have gnu, will travel.
Anonymity seems to be the red line through all the examples here.
Once again I'm strengthened in my belief that there should be no such thing as online anonymity.
Brianna,
Not all people in the world are respectful.
When you are in a command position or publicly declaring your opinion (online posting), you will make decisions/comments that other people disagree with.
The disrespectful ones will attempt to cut you down by making crude comments intended to hurt you as much as possible, especially if they can do it anonymously. Often, they will pursue what sets you apart from the average population because bullies innately know that most people are self-consciousness about standing out.
If you are a minority, they will come after your race. If you are a woman, they will come after your gender. If you are gay, they will come after your sexuality. If you have a family, they will threaten your children. If you are handicapped, they will come after your disability. If you are attractive, they will insult your beauty. If you are ugly, they will insult your beauty. If you are obese, they will insult your weight. If you are thin, they will insult your weight. If you are a man, they will insult your genitalia. If you are a woman, they will insult your genitalia.
This is the way that the world works. No amount of whining online will change it; it just lets them know that they have hit home. It is not fair. Life is not fair. However, effective individuals accept this harassment as the cost of being a manager or public figure. They learn to absorb it, ignore it or thrive on it. Then they continue to move forward towards their goals.
If you cannot learn to deal with the harassment associated with leadership or public positions, consider less visible paths forward in life.
Sincerely,
cyn1c77
Anyways
What we're all forgetting here is that we're still moving out of the dark ages of computer use, since the generation that suffered the most for the sake of their ambitions are still alive. The one where being a computer enthusiast meant you were a social pariah and were destined to be abused constantly by everyone, especially all through highschool. Then bam, society takes a hard left and suddenly it's cool to be tech savvy. That doesn't help all the people that got shit on for decades before things turned around.
Now these abused souls are grown up, and in the industry and you wonder why they're assholes? If this were any other situation you'd have governments creating support groups. Instead, everyone is demonizing them for being harsh and defensive. You're not going to see this problem go away for several generations, if it goes away at all and it is a problem that society itself built through its perpetual abuse of other people.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
i suppose you don't appreciate the irony in your post, but i do. i appreciate it enough for both of us.
yes, we understand that NOT ALL MEN are extremely sensitive to being criticized by women.
some of them are. plenty enough to cause problems. jumping in and saying NOT ALL MEN is just derailing the conversation before it can get anywhere productive. way to defend us downtrodden and persecuted men everywhere!
Yes, and we have laws for just this situation. Alert the authorities of you feel personally threatened.
Pretty sick of this crap now. If men and women can't be people around each other then the only solution is a divided world and humanity can slowly die off for all the difference it makes. Men and women are both equally insensitive sexist assholes. Enough of this pseudo news from whiny cunts.
They are really lowering the bar for harassment here. The men literally don't have to do anything to reach this standard of harassment. Just by existing, their presence is enough to supress women's ability to express themselves.
the same is true for all groups. Go to any main stream blog these days and you will see hundreds of comments like yours, as well as plenty of insults towards white people. "White privilege" - a term that means nothing you say matters because you are white and cant possibly understand me, all while at the same time not realizing that if they believe what they are saying, they cant ever understand what its like to be a white person either, so they are hypocritical making the statement you cant talk for me, but i can talk for you
plus all the german nazi jokes, polish jokes, irish jokes, (all white people)
Long story short on the internet, everyone is treated equal, but as in real life, only some people actually bitch about it
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
There are an awful lot of comments here from guys sound pretty angry at a female having the audacity to not like rape and death threats for being online and visible, railing against "feminism" and the such. That's not really a community that I really care to be a part of.
Sex crimes are a real thing, and they're scary as hell. Yeah, people tend to talk big and spout crap that they'll never, ever go through with when cloaked behind anonymity of the net, but that doesn't make it any less scary to the recipient, to the point of downright horrifying when received over and over and over and over again. It's a completely legitimate complaint. I can't imagine, I don't -want- to imagine, being in that position myself. Nobody should have to put up with that, and asking the guys perpetuating this to tone it the fuck down is utterly reasonable.
The internet is not one person with one commanding opinion.
It's full of people who don't like each other commenting on people who don't like each other.
I've known plenty of female game designers and admins who have switched roles to see if they get less harassment.
The answer? No.
That's what women need to learn to expect being given freedom and allowed to enter the male workplace. Learn to deal or get back in the kitchen.
There isn't really an obvious prescription. You can educate people all you want about not saying offensive things, but a small handful of people will continue to say offensive things because they're trying to be offensive.
Sensitivity training teaches the insensitive exactly how to push the buttons of the sensitive. And that's about all it does.
There's an old prescription, that may still be the best available: "Do not feed the trolls."
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
The headline should read: Over-sensitive feminist assholes seeks special treatment within the game industry.
In the words of Boyd Rice:
I'm not a tolerant person
In fact I get more intolerant by the day
I just find it more and more difficult to tolerate assholes
As my tolerance decreases, their numbers seem to increase
Every day there's more and more of them
And every day I have less and less patience
I'm not a mere bigot
But I certainly don't cut any slack to anyone on the merit of their status as an oppressed minority
Your people were enslaved? Tough luck
The white man stole your land? Too fuckin' bad
Your fair sex is plagued by date rape? Grin and bear it
These days everyone has a sob story, and frankly, I don't care
It's no excuse for being an asshole
We live in the age of the excuse
We live in the age of the asshole
They're everywhere
They come in all shapes, all sizes, all colors
There are black assholes, white assholes, women assholes, men assholes, queer assholes, straight assholes, smart assholes, stupid assholes, suburban assholes, inner-city assholes, homeless assholes, upwardly-mobile assholes, lazy assholes, incompetent assholes, sloppy assholes, anal assholes
And so it goes, ad nauseum
Why should I tolerate any of them?
Why should I tolerate anything I don't care for, for any length of time?
Why should I pretend it's okay?
I don't like assholes
Don't like talking to them; don't like talking about them
Don't like knowing them; don't like knowing about them, or their thoughts, or their deeds
Assholes are like bad ideas
You let even a single one into your life, it can begin to ruin things
It can destroy what's good, and foster much that's bad
Why tolerate that?
Tolerance was a virtue once; no more
There aren't enough hours in the day to tolerate all the assholes
To tolerate all the indignities hurled your way and still be able to live a decent life
Perhaps Goethe said it best: that which disturbs your soul, you must not suffer
Remember that when it seems like assholes are hard at work to disturb your soul 24 hours a day
Take a tip from Mr. Intolerance: don't permit them to
These complaints aren't of random griefing on forums. These complaints are of people who aren't content with just insulting people, but who track them down. Wu got insulting email and a threat backed by research on how to execute it. Nina had people track down her website and post hate mail on it. Nicole I don't know enough to judge. Elise writes about being physically restrained at a gaming event, and being sent chapters of pornographic fanfic anonymously. Carolyn seems to be dealing with the abuse.
This seems to me to be largely different from being insulted and threatened on a gaming channel.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Ya, that's *stalking* but well, stalking already has a prescription in law.
Naturally the international nature of the internet somewhat limits what you can do, and discovering that people making threats are basically children wouldn't do you any favours either.
Nina had people track down her website and post hate mail on it.
Don't have a website if you don't want racist, biggoted or threatening comments. I'm a game developer and a university professor, and well, students who don't like their grades seem to turn off the filter when e-mailing to a private account.
Elise writes about being physically restrained at a gaming event
That's what security is for. There's nothing here about 'women in __________' that's 'if you threaten someone for any reason the police will be called' territory.
The post is essentially cherry picking extreme cases. Ask any woman who has had a stalker if it's a good experience and the answer will be a definitive no. But you're not going to prevent stalking completely through education, no more than you can completely eliminate murder either. 4 hand picked examples of extreme cases is hardly the basis of serious policy discussion on a broad issue.
That there have been plenty of female developers (or artists or whatever else) dating back to the gaming 80s if not earlier.
It seems to me like now would be a good time to go dig some of them up and ideally get some opinions on sexism in the workplace then versus now, especially for any who are still in the gaming industry.
I think much of the whining coming about nowadays is people who didn't have to deal with the persecution levels of previous generations, as well as the enhanced access to communication with people who previously would've never known a particular game dev was ACTUALLY a female (There were plenty of male Robin's and Kims and such working in the game industry in the past, and more than a few who upon later digging turned out to be females!)
Maybe that's just my male white sexist inbred ass speaking though.
Imagine what these verbally violent men say and do offline one-on-one with a woman.
"A look at the YouTube comments for her 2010 PAX East panel is stomach-churning." => "Comments are disabled for this video."
Yeah, I find censorship stomach-churning also.
It's the younger women who trend towards aggressive jerks. I'm sure it is also biologically based but less obvious. "Jerks that they wanted" does not cover even the majority of rape! Rape may happen plenty but it's not the fault of the women!
I'd like to see any kind of correlation on abortions and birth control doing anything at all-- I can't see anything -- sounds more like a frustrated young male rant... the older women have more sense (and not all the young ones are stupid;) I suggest you keep looking.
Now I could see how birth control might be making humans more stupid, selfish and irresponsible. Since those are the people are popping out kids all the time while the more evolved ones do not have accidental children or do not think ahead about the realities of raising children.
I don't see why we shouldn't fix all males at birth and then after you get a PERMIT they undo it or something. I am being serious. Just because you are fertile doesn't mean you have a right to bring children into the world. Just because I could kill people doesn't give me a right to do it either. Messing up a child's upbringing can do more harm than subtracting a person from society. Oh yeah, "big government" well, since when did that stop people from breaking the laws?
Looks like someone's been eating too much cloudpussy in the workplace to me. Where the fuck you come up with this bs?