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The Unintended Consequences of Free Windows 10 For Everyone

Posted by timothy on from the dogs-and-cats-living-together dept.

Ammalgam writes: Microsoft seems to be really driven to pushing over a billion people to the new Windows 10 platform as soon as humanly possible. In the latest push to make this happen, the company has basically decided that (somewhat off the record), pirates can come in the side door and it really doesn't matter what the state of their Windows license is, they can get Windows 10 for free. To get deep into the weeds on how this is happening, you have to read Ed Bott's excellent article on ZDNET – "With a nod and a wink, Microsoft gives away Windows 10 to anyone who asks." However, on Windows10update.com, Onuora Amobi asks whether the cost benefit analysis has been done and if this deluge of new members will have a detrimental effect on the Windows Insider Program.

173 of 277 comments (clear)

  1. But will it be free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    John Thompson, the guy that runs Microsoft, said it will not. He hinted that it will be subscription only. We need to answer that question first before going off on tangents about the effect of something we're not sure will happen.

    1. Re:But will it be free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That man really needs to be more careful with what he says. He keeps contracting the C-level guys at Microsoft that work for him, and he even contradicts himself pretty often. I know he was hired just because he's friends with Obama, and that gives Microsoft a lot of influence in the White House, but he is just in way over his head.

    2. Re:But will it be free? by Junta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They keep using 'Windows as a service' and 'supported lifetime of the device' which strongly hint at subscription.

      On the financial side, they have done something with a strong hint about what they means: they declared they will defer a license revenue purchase and only count a part of it a year until the projected useful life of the hardware device is over. So they need to come out and be explicit, but it seems nothing really changes from the customer side and they play accounting tricks to transform their revenue to resemble a subscription offering.

      So all signs currently point to Windows 10 being more of the same. Their upfront price is large enough and in pracitce gets thrown out with the hardware it was running on.

      So they gussied up some fancy accounting and marketing and suddenly they look like they are a 'free' platform to customers and subscription to investors. Nothing however really changed in any real fundamental way.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    3. Re:But will it be free? by King_TJ · · Score: 5, Informative

      You know... it's funny because a few weeks ago, I made the point on Slashdot that I, too, believed Windows 10 was Microsoft's vehicle for moving people to a subscription model for their OS upgrades. But I was immediately modded down as a troll.

      I have lots of reasons to believe this is so, though - including attending a conference a few months ago where several Microsoft business sales reps were in attendance. They made it clear that moving forward, Microsoft is strongly focused on serving everything to you via the Cloud. They made the off-handed comment that the next release of Windows Server will likely be the last one you can actually buy to install on your own hardware. The future, according to them, lies in subscribing to everything hosted on Microsoft's Azure. You need a print and file server? Fine ... spin a new one up on Azure and configure as needed, and pay the monthly fee to keep it going as long as you need it. Same for SQL, SharePoint Server and more. And just the other day, they announced an internal restructuring of Microsoft's CRM/ERP software division (Great Plains Accounting software, basically) so it will go under their division doing Enterprise Cloud computing initiatives.

      It sounds to me like Win 10 puts the "mechanism" on everyone's computer that will allow MS to push future OS updates to it via the Internet ... not just patches or "Service Packs", but complete new versions of the OS. They don't HAVE to do things that way, obviously ... but it sets the stage for a change to that deployment method.

    4. Re:But will it be free? by armanox · · Score: 2

      If they do something like that on the server side there will be a lot of negative feedback...And a lot of money moving (back?) towards Red Hat, Oracle, and IBM.

      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
    5. Re:But will it be free? by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 2

      Exactly what I was thinking as well. They want to give away windows 10 to as many people as possible so they can eventually hijack all those people and lock them into a subscription to "Windows".

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    6. Re:But will it be free? by dave420 · · Score: 1

      They also flat-out denied it would be a subscription model, so I guess that trumps your hints :)

    7. Re:But will it be free? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      For business users, yes, it's already going this way. They realized a while back that running their own hardware was more expensive than just paying someone else to run it in the cloud, the only problems being trust and internet connection bandwidth. In fact something similar has been happening for a long time in IT, with companies offering remotely managed boxes you install at your own facility. We have remotely managed IP phones, and for many years Cisco offered remotely managed routers and switches.

      For home users though, the most subscription they are ever likely to see will be for stuff like Office 365. The basic OS won't be subscription, just some of the apps and services for it.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    8. Re: But will it be free? by binarylarry · · Score: 1

      Welcome to 1998, Microsoft.

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    9. Re:But will it be free? by Junta · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you should read the full thing ". Nothing however really changed in any real fundamental way."

      They use phrasing that sounds like a subscription model and accounting trickery to make it *behave* like a subscription model, but the actual business does not change as they still just sell a license in a transactional way with respect to the client device. Essentially, they are hand waving to investors demanding annuity income to say 'think of a purchase as a prepaid subscription that expires when they probably are going to get a new license anyway'.

      MS is stuck with the knowledge that a *real* subscription model for an *OS* would be suicide, but facing investors who think it would be awesome, so this is what they came up with.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    10. Re:But will it be free? by Junta · · Score: 1

      There are no signs and no precedent in the industry for a move like that. My point was that they are doing their best to dress up business as usual in clever ways to make various people *feel* like they are changing in a direction they think is right (revenue that resembles a subscription for investors, upgrades for OEM devices to new platforms without ever 'paying' for the OS explicitly for the end user). It seems silly they have to do it, but it's what they need to do to shape perception as the market is fickle and demands change even out of businesses that demonstrate solid revenue. This is probably the best sort of strategy from a business perspective I could see them moving with.

      With regards the last release of Windows, everything I've heard is basically them deciding it is 'rolling release' time, with the LTS branch sort of still getting releases, but without so much noise each release.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    11. Re:But will it be free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      you, know, with Microsoft's excellent track record for always being completely truthful and accurately representing themselves, I think you have an excellent point and we should take their statements at face value without any deliberation or evaluation.

    12. Re:But will it be free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "There are no signs and no precedent in the industry for a move like that"

      Clearly you aren't well informed. You can't buy Photoshop anymore. At all. Subscription only baby. The same goes for almost all Adobe products.

      Microsoft has even more power to do that kind of thing than Adobe does because they hold a complete stranglehold on anyone who depends on windows compatibility, be it for current or legacy software written only for windows. At least with graphics tools you can still use alternatives, although most of them are dramatically inferior. You can't really rewrite all the apps that run on windows yourself. Particularly not affordable for enterprises with lot of inhouse stuff.

    13. Re:But will it be free? by Junta · · Score: 1

      Adobe is an application. Windows is an OS platform. For Office I could see the argument, but for the OS being a subscription... That would be the opposite direction of all their competitors.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    14. Re:But will it be free? by niftymitch · · Score: 1

      You know... it's funny because a few weeks ago, I made the point on Slashdot that I, too, believed Windows 10 was Microsoft's vehicle for moving people to a subscription model for their OS upgrades. But I was immediately modded down as a troll.

      ....snip.....

      You may be right.
      Borrowed a spare tinfoil hat from a neighbor and got the
      impression that there was a gentle PUSH from a TLA to
      fix some or all of the security issues in WindowZ and also...

      The subscriber model makes it easy to deliver targeted software
      and it also makes it easy to squash the world wide explosion
      of bot systems abused by criminals and foreign nationals.

      The security flaws are seen as a power token by some small minded
      departments but the net sum of the known bugs risks global chaos.

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
  2. side door? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Anyone is invited. You beta-test = your payment is a free license.
    That sounds like the front door to me, not some questionable/obscure side door.

  3. I wonder... by Otome · · Score: 1

    If this had been done with Windows 8, would it have been successful? Or is Windows 8 so bad Microsoft couldn't give it away. What's keeping people in Windows 7 doesn't really seem to be the cost...

    1. Re:I wonder... by geoskd · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If this had been done with Windows 8, would it have been successful?

      This would not have helped windows 8.

      People only get an OS update for three reasons

      New hardware comes with it. Windows 8 (can to a lesser extent Microsoft itself) had such a bad reputation that people would avoid new hardware purchases to avoid windows 8. Corporate customers refused to retrain their workforce, so windows 8 was out of the question. Had windows 7 not been an option, One of the Linux variants might have had a real shot...

      Microsoft fanbois buy the new OS (or join the beta testing programs) to stay abreast of the latest and greatest. This category includes (whether they like it or not) tech journalists.

      Some people need a new version of the OS because the old one did not do something they felt they needed. Hard core gamers tend to fall into this category which is why the directX program was so vital to Microsoft for the last 15+ years.

      Microsoft is finding it harder and harder to generate new *must have* features with each new version of windows. That is why Windows XP enjoyed such a long run. Based on features alone, there would be no compelling reason to move to windows 8. This keeps Microsoft continually off balance. They have to continue creating new OS's so they don't get left behind, which costs a great deal of money, and runs the risk of breaking legacy programs. When they do, they need to convince people to buy the new OS (which most people really don't want to do). Microsoft can force the issue by discontinuing support for old versions (like XP), but each forced transition causes some percentage of windows customers to migrate away from windows. Microsoft is dying by inches, but like most things tech, once the avalanche lets go, the transition will be fast, powerful and will leave companies dying 15' under. People give Balmer a lot of shit, but he managed to avoid this fate for Microsoft, so all other things aside, he managed to avoid making any fatal mistakes which is more than can be said of many other tech companies.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    2. Re:I wonder... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Informative

      We've been here before: When Vista game out it immediately got a reputation as such a worthless, buggy, unstable, over-ornate piece of utter rubbish that very few people got it - and demand was so low that many OEMs were advertising 'comes with Windows XP' as a feature. Vista became the skipped version, as people held off on upgrading until seven game out. We seem to be in the same situation with windows eight: It's got such a poor image already for a hellish interface that everyone sensible has skipped it, and will go straight from seven to ten.

    3. Re:I wonder... by DogDude · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Some people need a new version of the OS because the old one did not do something they felt they needed. Hard core gamers tend to fall into this category which is why the directX program was so vital to Microsoft for the last 15+ years.

      Kid, I hate to break it to you, but most Windows users are business users. Businesses upgrade when they need to. There have been plenty of good reasons to move to Windows 7 from Windows XP that have nothing to do with games.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    4. Re:I wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Shame you used that juvenile term "fanbois". Otherwise you make perfectly reasonable arguments here.

    5. Re:I wonder... by r_naked · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If this had been done with Windows 8, would it have been successful? Or is Windows 8 so bad Microsoft couldn't give it away. What's keeping people in Windows 7 doesn't really seem to be the cost...

      You are wondering about Windows 8? I really don't think this is going to work with Windows 10 either. Yes, they have made a lot of changes, but those changes have only pissed off the tablet users. So now you have an OS that not only desktop users don't want to use, but tablet users don't want it either.

      In the build 10147 release notes is states:

      "When the user upgrades from Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 8.1 to Windows 10, they are now able to downgrade to the earlier operating system, as expected"

      Maybe Microsoft already knows something....

      --
      -- http://anonet.org -- The internet the way it was meant to be. Check it out, you may be surprised.
    6. Re:I wonder... by YukariHirai · · Score: 2

      Sure, businesses upgrade when they need to. Never a moment before there is a serious, compelling NEED to upgrade; typically something they absolutely need to operate absolutely needing the newer version, or existing hardware failing and new purchases coming with the new version. The business I work for has mostly XP workstations, and the server that we rely on most is running NT 4.0.

      "Upgrade when you need to" is secondary to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Whatever shiny new features the newer version has, there are always teething problems with an upgrade. They could be minor, such as needing to tweak the config of something and only taking a few minutes. Or they could be major, such the software you need not working properly with the new version and needing some rewriting, taking who knows how long. And there's no way of knowing ahead of time what it'll be, so upgrades are always a crapshoot on how much productivity you'll lose in the process.

    7. Re:I wonder... by YukariHirai · · Score: 1

      Yes, they have made a lot of changes, but those changes have only pissed off the tablet users. So now you have an OS that not only desktop users don't want to use, but tablet users don't want it either.

      Sounds like a step in the right direction; the insistence on using the exact same UI on tablets and desktops is the biggest thing wrong with Windows 8. Which no-one really wants to use on either desktop or tablet anyway, so I'm not really seeing a lot of downside to these changes.

    8. Re:I wonder... by dwywit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The toshiba laptops in my supplier's catalogue nearly all come with "Windows 7 32/64bit pre-installed. Also supplied with Windows 8/8.1 media"

      Now, why would Toshiba go to the extra effort to pre-install what is effectively a downgrade, unless 1. customers are demanding it and 2. it's a selling point - "you don't have to downgrade, we've already done it for you!"

      --
      They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
    9. Re: I wonder... by rickb928 · · Score: 2

      Unless you're buying XP updates, there are many good reasons to upgrade to 7.

      Your NT server is an attack magnet.

      Sounds to me you're relying on internal anti-malware and perimeter security, and that will work if you prevent foreign machines from attaching internally. Which you cannot.

      In glad you're not my client.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    10. Re: I wonder... by YukariHirai · · Score: 1

      Absolutely those are the problems with that approach. And, for the record, I've been saying for years that the NT server needs replacing, and it looks likely to happen soon as its hardware continues to get less reliable. But the fact remains that many things do not get upgraded because of one simple factor: "this works now, and may not after an upgrade". Hell, there's plenty of stuff out there that still runs DOS.

    11. Re:I wonder... by youngone · · Score: 1

      I had a conversation with a friend seeking tech advice just this weekend. She wanted to know why she should update her laptop from Windows 7 to Windows 10. I could not give her a reason why she should. The laptop has a Core i5 processor, and 4 GB of RAM, which can be upgraded to 8 GB according to the ASUS website. When her drive fails at some stage, and I put an SSD drive in for her, it will run Windows 7 even better, and she will still have no reason to upgrade.

    12. Re:I wonder... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      If this had been done with Windows 8, would it have been successful? Or is Windows 8 so bad Microsoft couldn't give it away. What's keeping people in Windows 7 doesn't really seem to be the cost...

      And windows 10 is only just bad enough to give away?

      I'm in a wait and see mode. I'd like it to be good, but fear something is afoot. See the interminable discussion in another topic, of people telling me I can switch back and forth anytime I want, and what some Microsoft web pages say about that very thing.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    13. Re:I wonder... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Toshiba go to the extra effort to pre-install what is effectively a downgrade,

      I've used both. I know downgrades, and 7 is no downgrade from 8.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    14. Re: I wonder... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Unless you're buying XP updates, there are many good reasons to upgrade to 7.

      Your NT server is an attack magnet.

      Sounds to me you're relying on internal anti-malware and perimeter security, and that will work if you prevent foreign machines from attaching internally. Which you cannot.

      In glad you're not my client.

      I think I missed the XPocalypse. Did we survive that?

      I hear every XP machine turned into a zombie, and brought the whole internet down

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    15. Re:I wonder... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Shame you used that juvenile term "fanbois".

      Fanboi: someone who's making decisions based on his identification with some Power That Be that he isn't actually a part of.

      The term is not juvenile but perfectly accurate.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    16. Re:I wonder... by Trogre · · Score: 2

      Yes, and the enterprise desktop is not one of them. I assume you do not work in the corporate sector, otherwise you would know that Windows 7 is a major step backwards.

      Multi-domain logins? Sure, so long as you don't mind typing the WHOLE DOMAIN NAME every time you log in for all but one default domain. Domain selector dropdown box? Gone. No problem, just drop in a custom gina. Whoops, that whole ABI is gone.

      Okay, let's browse the Windows network. So long as you're happy to wait for ten minutes, it will eventually populate with a flat (yes, FLAT) list of all the computers it can find, which is usually about 20 percent of the actual number of computers on the network. You can group the right pane by Workgroup to attempt to bring some structure to the list, but the left pane is pretty much beyond help.

      What an absolute joke.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    17. Re:I wonder... by Sark666 · · Score: 2

      Something you don't hear much of but I want to update for bluetooth 4.0 which win 7 doesn't have.

    18. Re:I wonder... by Drakonblayde · · Score: 1

      Windows 8 was doomed simply because it was a radical shift from what people had been used to going back to Win95. Sure, In between Win95 and W2k there was some face lift stuff done to the UI to tweak and polish it, but basic functionality remained the same - Click Start, find your program, click on it, go to work. If you needed to fiddle with settings, you click on start and click on Control Panel

      Trying to cram a touch screen style interface down the throats of point and click users..... of course that was going to end badly.

      I personally don't upgrade my windows versions quickly and easily. I stuck with Win95 until Win98 SE, then upgraded to W2k after SP2, XP after SP2, skipped Vista entirely, and upgraded to Win7 when games I wanted to forced me to.

      Looks like I'll be skipping Win8 entirely too. I will certainly take a look at Win10 when it becomes available, and I might consider upgrading to it if the UI isn't too much of a pain in the ass.

      Hopefully Microsoft has learned that there's no money in the desktop OS market anymore, not with other vendors providing cheap or free installs and updates.

      If Microsoft makes Win10 something that's not a pain in the ass to use, for a relatively cheap price, and capable of joining an AD domain, I'll probably use it on a more permanent basis, but probably not for the first couple years of it's life unless there's a *really* compelling reason to do so

    19. Re:I wonder... by Shaman · · Score: 1

      The truth is what people want, even now, is a version of XP that installs nicely on new hardware. And is better at doing useful things - like file copies that don't lock up the computer despite the CPU/s being nearly free.

      --
      ...Steve
    20. Re:I wonder... by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Vista is pretty good after SP1. I never migrated a laptop off of it which is how I noticed. It came with SP1 installed already. I had issues with the initial release (drivers and locking up) on a variety of hardware (I have an MSDN subscription) but no issues with it since SP1. 7 is much better and 8.x is just mentally handichaired.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    21. Re:I wonder... by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      If you have modern touch screen devices,

      Who the hell uses "modern touch screen devices" in the workplace other than the McDonalds sales team?

      Most workplaces use a PC for

      a) Word
      b) The Intranet
      c) Some businesss specific Access app (probably for their timesheets).

      Access to pron^H^H^H^H the internet is only marginally more available than in North Korea, and probably more effectively monitored.

      Most workplaces are not doing software develiopment or research. They are doing actual work and that involves lifting and carrying, bending down, walking around and absolutely nothing that involves a computer.

      "Most people" do cleaning, care work, cook food, drive trucks, farm, repair stuff (excluding those who do drugs and don't have a workplace at all). There are most certainly more supermarket shelf stackers than software developers. Hell, even primary school teachers barely use a computer, and that is probably still runnng XP in most state schools. Hint: Get out of the damned basement!

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    22. Re:I wonder... by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      Google put their balls to the wall and make a solid desktop version of Android complete with a full replacement for X

      You must have an iPhone. X is not the problem. And Google are deeply in the pit of hell as the rest of the problem makers! They, like all the other "high tech" morons, keep bloody reworking the UI.

      If Linux is to have a chance, someone has to do a Gnome2/XP like interface, and not keep changing it. Serious users want drop down text menus with meaningful function names. They do not want wierd looking coloured blobs with no inherent meaning that vanish with each new release to be replaced by a completely unrelated, wierd coloured blob, that does something the same, only different. Nor do they want (Google, I am looking at Android Lollipop) something that looks like a Fisher-Price toy and doesn't work - for business!

      For most non technical users Its like car manufacturers kept moving the pedals around with every new model. (They used to do that, till the governments stopped them).

      You have no idea how many people have to go to classes to learn how to "press the left mouse button". If I were running a large government department, I would mandate "drop down text menus whose location, structure and font will not be changed for the next 20 years" for all software bids.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    23. Re:I wonder... by Altrag · · Score: 1

      It goes back further than that:
      95/98 -> not bad (crashed a lot but most users came from earlier MS products which were just as bad.)
      ME -> garbage
      XP -> great
      Vista -> garbage
      7 -> great
      8 -> garbage
      10 -> ??

      Personally, I suspect Win10 will fall into the "not bad" category again. It's biggest selling feature is being not Win8 rather than having much purpose of its own, so I'm not really expecting super amazing things from it.

      But hey you never know I didn't really recognize how much nicer Win7 was over XP for quite a while (particularly the taskbar.. to the extent that I tried to set all the options to be XP-ish for the first few months. But after getting used to the new style holy hell is it a lot nicer, especially as I get more powerful machines and have far more programs running simultaneously. Nothing along that vein has jumped out at me yet with the Win10 preview but then I haven't spent a whole lot of time with it yet either.)

      I'm just really hoping that they'll finally do something not entirely stupid when handling multiple monitors. Rearranging my entire desktop just because the EDID signal died (ie: I turned off my screens for the night) is ridiculous.

    24. Re:I wonder... by Altrag · · Score: 1

      There's one very major reason to prefer XP: If you're using software that doesn't play nice with UAC. If you're lucky you might be able to reconfiguring to work around the UAC issues (in particular, installing to a non-standard directory) but that has its own potential set of risks.

      Of course that only applies to the (hopefully very few) computers that actually need to interface with legacy software (or hardware in some cases.)

    25. Re:I wonder... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      That must be very old stock. The free Windows 8 upgrade media was only available for a limited time after Windows 8 came out. If you buy an OEM Windows 7 licence today that's all you get, no free Windows 8 upgrade available. I doubt Toshiba would buy two licences for every machine, so they must be old ones from the period when the upgrade was free.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    26. Re:I wonder... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Where I work (medium sized company) new machines come with Windows 8 pre-installed. The IT guys normally put a clean copy on, but it's still Windows 8. No down-grade to 7 required, people just aren't complaining or demanding extra training. It's really not that big of a deal.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    27. Re:I wonder... by Trogre · · Score: 1

      are you saying XP is better in the enterprise?

      Unequivocally yes.

      You are high or in some dinosaur industry. If you haven't moved all your PC's off XP yet you are doomed!

      I didn't say we were still using XP. My client had to change off XP because Microsoft stopped making security updates for it, not because of any merits of 7. Along with the previously mentioned, we had to deal with a lot of hardware simply not working at all (no 64-bit Windows drivers) and utterly pathetic system recovery. Have you ever had Windows 7 successfully perform a startup repair? Ever? Me neither, though XP managed it all the time.

      Who BROWSES a windows network? Not any sort of enterprise. Why would someone do that? The admin sets the drives,. printers, etc you need based on your location and function.

      That works for the most commonly used shares (when Windows 7 remembers to mount them, which is about 50% of the time), but for more than a handful of network shares, you browse.

      XP is garbage. Its like saying you want to use win98 in these days. If you have modern touch screen devices, you almost have to use windows 8. I find win8 less stable than windows 7 but windows 7 is surely just as stable as windows 2000.

      Or as stable as XP perhaps? XP is nothing like 98 and its crash-tastic glory. Who uses touch screens in the Enterprise? And if they do, they're probably doing it on Android or perhaps Apple.

      There are a few benefits to 7 of course: Proper 64-bit support is nice for programs that need more than 4GB and a few more CPU registers available if they're compiled right. That does not matter in an enterprise. The printer system is much improved as is the WSUS system. Marginally better driver detection, although a sysprep is still required for basic scenarios such as switching between AHCI and PATA emulated SATA modes. Can't think of much else I'm afraid.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    28. Re:I wonder... by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

      Well, GP explicitly mentioned gamers, who are quite the opposite of business users when it comes to upgrading.

      Where businesses hesitate to upgrade, often to the point of running unsupported OS versions because "it works" (until it doesn't ;-), gamers tend to err on the side of being overenthusiastic.

      That includes stuff like running alpha versions and beta drivers, and since Windows has by far the largest selection of available games, it has to be Windows for most of them. I predict that DirectX 12 really will drive adoption of Windows 10 in the home user market.

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    29. Re:I wonder... by omnichad · · Score: 1

      It's the reverse direction. Buy Windows 8 Pro and you get free downgrade rights to Windows 7. However, I'm not sure if that applies to machines that come from the factory with Windows 7. It's probably just a Windows 7 license in that case.

      http://www.microsoft.com/OEM/e...

    30. Re:I wonder... by omnichad · · Score: 1

      I re-read the parent comment - so it's a Windows 8 license, exercising downgrade rights.

    31. Re:I wonder... by omnichad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The only real reason is if she plans on keeping it past 2020, when extended support ends for Windows 7. Which is pretty unlikely if it's not upgraded to 8GB. Or, if there's a business reason to buy new software which then requires newer Windows (because of being badly coded).

    32. Re:I wonder... by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 1

      I'd add a small caveat that these are 3 reasons why Windows people get upgrades. I have a Mac, and I upgrade it all the time, mostly to get the security updates. I wait a couple weeks for the big nasty bugs to get settled, then I update my machines.

      My wife, not technical at all, bitches that she needs to close her tabs in Chrome, that's about the impact she sees. I updated her mom's laptop, VERY tech-phobic, was upgraded two major releases (Lion to Mavericks, skipping Mountain Lion completely) and the biggest impact for her was that her desktop pic changed. Imagine how much impact there were for most people going from 7 => 8. Im sure there were people bitching about a bit more than desktop backgrounds.

      Not perfect, but Apple seems to have the upgrade thing pretty smooth by this point. Windows is trying to go from the "big impact to bottom line, Windows 95 gets us people waiting in line at stores" to something more even.

    33. Re:I wonder... by Jahoda · · Score: 1

      I feel like you have to be trolling. But in case you're not, Windows 7 is vastly, vastly easier to manage as a fleet than Windows XP. Improvements to group policy alone make it a "killer app". But, the important stuff like roaming profiles, document redirection, etc etc etc. There is no comparison. I suppose I could see how it might be a minor inconvenience to add a domain prefix to your user account. And I suppose if you were an inexperienced systems admin who didn't understand how to optimize network access and configure your LAN properly, yes there are some obstacles.

  4. Smart Move by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's a really calculated and smart move. Think about it, they gain access to millions of beta testers, willing to sacrifice their time and hardware to test beta code. Normally they'd have to convince people to pay for that, as was the case in windows XP on up.

    Now they get free distributed testing, and have a captive audience.

    1. Re:Smart Move by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Windows Vista had a free beta, I was part of it. Never got a free license for the retail version after though. Not that I really wanted it.
      I'm sure Windows 7 and 8 did as well...

    2. Re:Smart Move by goarilla · · Score: 2

      I think lots of people will just create a shim Microsoft account to get the final version for free.

  5. WindowsME 2.0 by Billly+Gates · · Score: 3, Interesting

    About 1 billion users will start to cry for 7 and even 8.1 back!

    I am letting everyone know that I have been tested this on a Pc at work and on a VM in my virtual lab. Avoid this release like the plague! No RSAT tools, a VLAN change can crash it, install will corrupt itself, Windows updates break to the point a DISM image fix is required, and the list goes on and on.

    The odd thing is we are just a few weeks before release and there is no change freeze yet??! MS laid off their QA team so they only add features and fix them after enough people complain on the internet with their discussion app.

    I am sticking with Windows 8.1 for at least a year. Bloodstone which is the first bug fix update will come out next fall if rumors at www.neowin.net are correct. Another update will hit next summer. Maybe just maybe it will be stable enough??

    For me even Windows 8.1 is not stable. I do a dism and a WindowsUPDATE FIXIT every freaking month! Literally after 2 years 8.1 still corrupts itself with updates.

    Windows 7 the best most stable MS OS ever. If I were not an IT professional in charge of being up to date for myself and my employers systems I would still be on it. If you are not an IT admin or help desk jockey reading this stay on 7 for a few more years and let myself and the countless 1 billion fix the OS for you before it is time.

    --
    http://saveie6.com/
    1. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 3, Informative

      For me even Windows 8.1 is not stable. I do a dism and a WindowsUPDATE FIXIT every freaking month! Literally after 2 years 8.1 still corrupts itself with updates.

      The problem might well be on your end then...

      I have Windows 8.1 on many computers, it is solid as a rock, I have no complaints.

      My main work machine is still on 7, only because I have it setup just so and I'm happy with it, but all my secondary machines have 8.1 on them, with a single XP box for testing purposes.

      10 is just fine, relax...

    2. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1, Troll

      Go do a sfc /scannow and a dism /online /clean-image /checkhealth? I bet you money every 8.1 box that is more than a few months old will report problems? Funny as 7 doesn't have this problem?

      It happens regardless of hardware and explains why 8.0 users can't upgrade to 8.1 as their update is too broken to be moved over.

      --
      http://saveie6.com/
    3. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by turkeydance · · Score: 1

      is 7 the New XP?

    4. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > Windows 7 the best most stable MS OS ever

      Based on what? How many times have we heard this when faced with a new version of windows? (Windows X was the best most stable ever!)
      Please try to stick to the facts in your irrational ranting that slips into the realm of beyond belief with gems like that.

    5. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by mykepredko · · Score: 4, Informative

      Billy,

      Aren't your comments the same sage advice that should be used with each new version of Windows?

      I am doing 95% of my development work on Win7 simply because, like you, I believe it's the best version of Windows available for use right now (I always liked the stability of Win2k), but I just did a Google search on "Initial Windows 7 bugs" and there are numerous problems (including incomplete installations, unable to access optical media, theme change problems, etc.) all with the recommendation to wait a year+ until it gets stable.

      Unfortunately, Microsoft has the mindset to get it out and then fix the problems (with some bean-counter probably saying that they should only spend money/resources on the problems that users actually care about) instead of doing it right before shipping.

      --
      Mimetics Inc. Twitter
    6. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      i think the problem might be you, or a buggy release you are running

      I have been running 10 betas since day one, and i have not had any major issues with it. Loads in VMs just fine. updates go through with no effort (and havent broken anything except for one time it did hang on reboot and a powercycle fixed it, never happened again

      I love windows 7 as much as any microsoft product deserves, but 10 is looking like its going to be real good when done

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    7. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Oh. My. God.

      You're been beta testing a complex piece of software and it has some bugs?

      Say it ain't so!

      Windows 8.1... maybe you're doing something wrong? I don't know of anyone the floor in the building I'm in that has had any PC issues in the last year. They're all using 8.1 or were upgrade from XP to 8.1. There's been the odd cheap Chinese Lenovo hardware failure, but no OS failures.

    8. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Do you seriously believe Windows 8 is much different from 10?

      You're a moron. Windows 7 was the last "good" (haha) release.

    9. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The sfc /scannow reporting corruption was related to an update last year, if I recall correctly. It is fixable with dism with multiple reruns. See the relevant microsoft's kb and repeat the process as long as it takes. It took one to two more times than the kb suggests for me.

    10. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I've been on Window since...DOS. Okay, 3.1 was my first Windows OS. I find 7 to be the most stable, but then isn't it a bit like comparing baseball home run hitters? One guy hit during league in its infancy; another in a short or long ball park; another during a time of dominant pitching; another during the PED era.

    11. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by jsepeta · · Score: 1

      Yup.

      --
      Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
    12. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Tried it on two machines, no issues. It really sounds like your hardware is borked if you need to do major fixes every month. I and many others have been running 7 and 8.1 for years without issues.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    13. Re: WindowsME 2.0 by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      Ditto. My 8.1 machine at home had its first blue screen 18 months after update from 8.0. The single most stable release of Windows I've ever had.

      Mostly I use it for a proprietary terminal program, browsing mostly with Chrome but also IE, Office 2003 apps, and Blender, FreeCAD, Slicr, and some similar stuff. No problems. And I use the classic interface unless I drift too close to the right edge of the trackpad.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    14. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by msobkow · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'd agree with that. I've been chasing random crashes on my Linux box for a few months before I got around to running MemTest86 on it, and discovered half my memory had gone flaky over the years. The new memory is in and ready to be picked up.

      Since I flagged the bad memory with GRUB_BADMEM, not one crash. Yet I'd gone so far as doing a full install of a different "flavour" of Linux just because I thought the video card drivers for NVidia on Debian were borked. Total waste of time and a red herring of symptoms. The X server was crashing because of memory corruption, not bugs.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    15. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by msobkow · · Score: 1

      I've never had a computer's memory go bad on me since I bought my first Amiga 1000 way back in the day, and I've *always* had anywhere from 1-5 machines running at a time since then. *shrug* Anything can happen, I guess.

      P.S. Never buy Kingston memory, no matter how cheap it is.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    16. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by ArsonSmith · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Whey would you have a bad judgment on Kingston Memory when you've never had one fail??

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    17. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      Ram has always been the number one cause of failure for me. To the point that dead / dying ram is my first check. I have a box of dead ram sticks that I build up until I finally RA a heap in one go. HDDs are the next most likely.

    18. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by n3r0.m4dski11z · · Score: 1

      8.1 is not nerely as stable as windows 7. Do you have any microsoft surface devices? I too have had update related problems, as well as directaccess vpn foobaring itself, graphics bugs, network funnyness such as drives dropping randomly offline and just general instability requiring reboots. We have about 20 machines with win8 compared to 100s with win7 and the win8 machines definitely have more issues, sorry to say.

      Its always good to be extremely apprehensive about windows releases. If you remember all the way back to win95, it was garbage till SR2. Then theres windows ME, vista, windows CE (nightmares, cold sweats....). I wouldnt touch ten for at least the first year. Suckers can do what they want. I can ALWAYS upgrade later! no harm to me!

      --
      -
    19. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by Altrag · · Score: 1

      Stability wasn't Win8's problem. I doubt it'll be Win10's problem either.

      Win8's problem was Metro, which most people hate with a passion. Win10 still has Metro (backward compatibility) but its kind of jammed into a Win7 style UI in a Jekyll/Hyde type hybrid abomination.

      It'll probably be fine though. People will learn to ignore the Metro half of the start menu and life will go on in Windowsland.

    20. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      In my experience (I was a computer repair tech for a few years) I'd usually the hard drive that fails and causes these kinds of corruption issues. Check your SMART stats, particularly the remapped block count.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    21. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      I am letting everyone know that I have been tested this on a Pc at work and on a VM in my virtual lab.

      Most likely user error. Don't quit your day job...

    22. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is Microsoft worse than any other major OS vendor, or even any other major software vendor?

      New versions of OS X seems to have fairly severe issues like wifi not working at launch, and Apple has a much smaller range of hardware to target. Linux occasionally throws out some critical data destroying bug by mistake (remember the EXT4 thing with config files?)

      Microsoft really screwed up with trying to extend DOS into a 32 bit system, and then again by failing to realize that ordinary users would be running highly networked operating systems, but that was all more than a decade ago. XP was what, 2002? These days, apart from annoying UI changes (just like Gnome/KDE/OS X/iOS/Android) they seem to have mostly sorted themselves out, and certainly don't seem to be any worse than other vendors.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    23. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      Go do a sfc /scannow and a dism /online /clean-image /checkhealth?

      You Windows users are still using the command line? Why not switch to Linux where we have a choice of numerous UI's to suit every taste (and quite a few that propably suit none - fvwm95, anyone?)

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    24. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by fuzzywig · · Score: 1
      If you're getting problems like that I'd check both your memory, and storage. Possibly you have a crappy driver for a RAID card?

      Either way, you're getting very unusual problems.
      And why save IE6? It was crap when it came out, and it's no better now.

    25. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by HydrusZ · · Score: 1

      Avoid this release like the plague! No RSAT tools, a VLAN change can crash it, install will corrupt itself, Windows updates break to the point a DISM image fix is required, and the list goes on and on.

      "An RSAT package will be available shortly after Windows 10 RTM."
      from https://www.microsoft.com/en-u...

    26. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by danomac · · Score: 1

      Well, they've been in the news lately as shipping specific product to reviewers / benchmark testers and then shipping utter garbage to everyone else.

    27. Re:WindowsME 2.0 by Wolfrider · · Score: 1

      +5 Epic troll ;-) You win 1 Internet.

      --
      .
      == WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
  6. I don't think it means what you think it means by mykepredko · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When I read through TFA, it sounds like the offer is being revised and updated every time somebody points out a loophole or potential gotcha to the lawyers.

    Reading this, it seems to make more sense to me to:
    1. Make Windows 10 Open Source and available to everybody
    2. Charge for patch notification/installation. "For $10/year, we'll keep your copy of Windows current and in tip-top shape." For your average user, this would probably be a deal, and, I believe, is equivalent to the license fee Microsoft gets when the PC is first sold. For corporate users, this means they are outsourcing some IT responsibilities. For the technical user, they can maintain their workstations themselves and contribute fixes to the things that are important to them.

    Sounds like utopia.

    --
    Mimetics Inc. Twitter
    1. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by rhodium_mir · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A large majority of home users running Windows with zero patching because they don't want to pay for it sounds like utopia to you?

      --
      You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
    2. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      But this would be *gasp* a SUBSCRIPTION plan!!!

      The HORROR!!

      At least, that's what I believe because I'm from Slashdot and that's what they tell me to believe.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    3. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, I'll tell you the problems with a subscription model.

      First off, it's a nuisance. I've bought a new PCC which came with an OS. It's a done transaction. I have no intention of then providing my credit card and billing information to Microsoft. It's just not happening.

      And then there's the expectation that eventually it becomes extortionware -- nice OS you have, shame if something happened to it if you stopped paying us.

      Again, not happening. We just don't trust companies to not screw us over. Especially not Microsoft.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      It depends on the subscription license model. For example, with MSDN you get perpetual use licensing where you can continue to use products after the subscription expires. You just do not receive feature updates and you no longer get support.

      And then there's the expectation that eventually it becomes extortionware -- nice OS you have, shame if something happened to it if you stopped paying us.

      Slippery slope.

      You know what happens? Exactly what you expect, you no longer have support or feature updates. This is no different from what happened to people who are still using XP and never purchased an upgrade.

      In fact, you could say that the traditional Windows licensing model isn't terribly different from subscription, but instead of paying a small amount yearly you're paying a larger amount every 5 years or so.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    5. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by gstoddart · · Score: 2

      Well, having had Microsoft try to sneak in something to my Windows 8.1 which was solely for their benefit ... nagging me to upgrade to Windows 10, and embedding stuff to measure how bad of a job they did ... I simply don't believe or trust that this will be no different than before.

      Because Microsoft is actively making changes to push us to Windows 10, has said that Windows 10 Home will not be able to defer updates, and have more or less decided they'll be the ones calling the shots.

      So, I don't think it is a slippery slope, and I don't think stopping paying will simply mean you now have an older OS with no more updates. I don't trust them to play fairly and honestly.

      Because Microsoft is already doing crap of rolling stuff out as an important update which really are nothing more than crapware to start nagging you to upgrade.

      I'm just not buying at all this will be benign and stuff you can ignore. Because they're already well past that when I have to uninstall the thing which basically says "upgrade to Windows 10 now, or later" -- there simply was no option to say "no, I don't want this upgrade now or ever piss off an go away".

      Which means Microsoft isn't asking me to upgrade, they're telling me to. And, again, fuck that. It's my computer, not theirs.

      If they're already sneaking in shit which is 100% about turning me into a beta tester, they're already proving they're not trustworthy and are acting like they're in charge of the machine. They're not. And they need to realize that quickly before they piss off users even more.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    6. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by geoskd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But this would be *gasp* a SUBSCRIPTION plan!!!

      No, this would be a maintenance contract not a subscription plan.

      Under a subscription plan, you stop paying, it stops working. Under a maintenance contract, it keeps working, you just stop getting updates.

      In any event, MS would be ill advised to open source anything. As soon as they do, they are no longer the only source for updates, and once they are no longer the only source for updates, they will no longer be the *best* source for updates, since it is likely that a young upstart company with some intelligence behind it is going to be able to run rings around MS. The only advantage MS has is exclusive access to the source code. If they give that up, its sayonara sucker.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    7. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by Jiro · · Score: 1

      If Microsoft charged for patches, they wouldn't be able to force patches on people. Forcing patches lets them do lots of things that benefit themselves and are bad for the consumer, including forcing ads, remotely disabling certain hardware if they have a dispute with the manufacturer, retroactively removing features (See; Sony PS3 Linux), imposing restrictions that consumers didn't agree with, etc.

    8. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      In any event, MS would be ill advised to open source anything. As soon as they do, they are no longer the only source for updates, and once they are no longer the only source for updates, they will no longer be the *best* source for updates, since it is likely that a young upstart company with some intelligence behind it is going to be able to run rings around MS.

      It would still be the only official source for updates. Windows would almost certainly not accept third-party sources by default.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    9. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by ArsonSmith · · Score: 4, Funny

      Maybe we could get the government to pass universal windows. If you don't prove you have a windows subscription then they'll just add it to your taxes.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    10. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by Altrag · · Score: 2

      And exactly the opposite of what MS wants:
      1. Open sourcing it completely is pretty unlikely. There's still a lot of proprietary code in there, even with the various shared source programs, and much of it is licensed from other vendors and even MS is in no position to just arbitrarily release other peoples' code.

      2. MS wants people to keep up to date. Every time someone gets a virus or an incompatible driver update or some other BS, they blame Windows for being crappy. In many cases, the issue they're having has already been patched long ago. Sure 0-day exploits are thing, but most people don't pick them up on day 0. Even at internet speeds, those things take a while to spread around. Charging people for updates is a very very good way to make them not bother updating. (And the extreme of "tip-top" shape is entirely impractical for so many reasons, regardless of any discussion of updates. Way way way too many variables involved to offer that level of support to anyone willing to pay a measly $10.)

    11. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1

      In the same sense as: Sure we have a Quality Plan - unfortunately it focusses on delivering poor quality!

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    12. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

      In any event, MS would be ill advised to open source anything. As soon as they do, they are no longer the only source for updates, and once they are no longer the only source for updates, they will no longer be the *best* source for updates, since it is likely that a young upstart company with some intelligence behind it is going to be able to run rings around MS.

      It would still be the only official source for updates. Windows would almost certainly not accept third-party sources by default.

      It would be the only official source for updates for the original version. But if Windows was entirely open source, not just a few components, the third party version could accept whatever the third party wants.

      I think it could be similar to CentOS cloning RedHat:
      Switch out the trademaked logos, perhaps change a few URLs in the update mechanism to point to the servers of the third party and run the whole thing as "alternative" system...

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    13. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by Drethon · · Score: 1

      All that really matters is windows doesn't turn into an always online programs. I wont buy any of those (except for a couple MMOs I like) because I still want to be able use my programs when my network is unavailable or not working fully.

    14. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      Based on the response Microsoft got when Xbox One was announced as online-only, and considering that Xbox One is a lot more likely to exist in an always-connected environment than the thousands of different types of Windows machines, it would require extreme stupidity to try the same with Windows.

      I wouldn't worry much about that.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    15. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      Based on the response Microsoft got when Xbox One was announced as online-only, and considering that Xbox One is a lot more likely to exist in an always-connected environment than the thousands of different types of Windows machines, it would require extreme stupidity to try the same with Windows.

      I wouldn't worry much about that.

      That doesn't mean they won't try it. :-P

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    16. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by schlachter · · Score: 1

      I like the idea. But you know how many people would just not pay the $10/yr fee and take their chances with getting infected...hurting the MSFT brand in the long run?

      --
      My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    17. Re:I don't think it means what you think it means by strikethree · · Score: 1

      The only advantage MS has is exclusive access to the source code. If they give that up, its sayonara sucker.

      Oddly enough, I made a comment a week or so ago that resonates with this. Linus is not the only person with access to the source code for Linux... so why isn't it sayonara Linus? Only because it is free (Free?)?

      No. It would be sayonara Microsoft because Microsoft does not build a good product. They are not focused on the product at all. They are focused on how they use that product as leverage. So Microsoft would be history if the opened their source because another company would make a BETTER Windows... because they would be able to focus on actually making a good product.

      It is rather like the American automakers and why they are constantly on the edge of bankruptcy. They are not in the business of making cars. No, they are in the business of making money; making cars is merely the vehicle (pun somewhat intended) for making money. When you lose sight of the product, in time, you always end up failing. Concentrate on the product first. Afterwards, you can play whatever shitty games you want to try and wrest more money from people.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  7. wtfsrsly by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Whether the CBA has been done? Are you fucking serious? If there's one thing Microsoft has done, it's the CBA. Whether it's based on well-founded assumptions is another question.

    However, if you actually tunnel down into that article, they don't actually speculate about the CBA at all! They actually just show that they don't understand what they're talking about. Here's what the relevant paragraph from TFA actually says:

    This all comes down to cost benefit analysis. Hopefully someone at Microsoft has done the analysis and decided that it makes more sense for the company to open the gates wide than it does to preserve the integrity of the Insider Program.

    The author goes on to speculate that "if hundreds of millions join the Insider Program just for Windows 10, their participation and active feedback levels will be tremendously low" and that "It will make it a lot harder for Microsoft to nurture and mine this group for good information because the data sample size will grow exponentially." But this is a lot of cockery that shows that the author doesn't understand data reporting. Most low-quality information will be readily characterized; the users will have given incomplete or terse information, for example, and you can simply "throw away" any such reports unless they pertain specifically to an issue you care about — in which case, someone is going to loot the database specifically for problem reports which are relevant to the case at hand. And presumably, if the quality is going to suffer so badly, Microsoft already has a significant corpus of higher-quality problem reports to compare new ones against to determine whether they're worth looking at.

    However, the author has also apparently missed the full import of the Windows 10 experience program, which has unprecedented levels of snoopery built into it. Now that Microsoft has gone through the hardcore cadre, they open the floodgates to the general population so that they can collect more automated testing data. As users attempt to run their programs on Windows 10, Microsoft gathers crash reports that tell them not just what users are running, but how to shape Windows 10 to serve the majority as regards backwards compatibility.

    TL;DR: Everything about the idea that Microsoft hasn't run the numbers on this thing is stupid.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:wtfsrsly by msobkow · · Score: 1

      You raise an interesting point about the automated "testing" data, which is also a very convenient way of monitoring the "flood of pirates" that join the program. You can bet those automated tests tell Microsoft what programs were installed, which were running, and which was active. With someone who was pirating the OS, you can bet they didn't pay for those applications, either, giving MicroSoft valuable information about which software they need to write "crack detectors" for and deploy them as "security updates" to nag the pirates or delete the illegal installs automatically.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    2. Re:wtfsrsly by msobkow · · Score: 1

      Who said anything about validating third party licenses? They'd be content to nail everyone who pirates Office.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    3. Re:wtfsrsly by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Ah, humour attempt misfire. My comment is coming off different to how I intended.

      I think it needed more content, it was too plausible a comment as it was :)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:wtfsrsly by geoskd · · Score: 2

      Everything about the idea that Microsoft hasn't run the numbers on this thing is stupid.

      Very true, but Ms has a long history of failing to anticipate important consequences of their actions. The one I foresee with this is that with millions of extra users testing the OS in a "beta" state, they will see it at its less-than-finest. You can argue all you want to that its a beta, but first impressions count. If the beta isnt very close to fully stable, then they will leave a bad taste in peoples mouths. With early adopters, thats not really a big deal as they expect it. With people now signing up just to get the free license, you get end users who get to experience a beta environment, and they wont like it.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    5. Re:wtfsrsly by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

      If that was true, I might pirate Windows and run Libre Office as my office suite (at home). Gaming is the only thing I still need Windows for...

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    6. Re:wtfsrsly by omtinez · · Score: 1

      Moreover, the article seems to make the assumption that "feedback" is strictly freeform text or questionnaires. The truth is, 99.9% of the feedback is actually telemetry data so, yes, the more the merrier.

    7. Re:wtfsrsly by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Very true, but Ms has a long history of failing to anticipate important consequences of their actions. The one I foresee with this is that with millions of extra users testing the OS in a "beta" state, they will see it at its less-than-finest.

      Every natural response I have to this is snarky. For example: Given Windows' history, and it generally always being a bad idea to adopt a new version before the first or in some cases even second (or fourth...) service pack, who hasn't seen Windows at its less-than-finest?

      If Windows is adopting a rolling release schedule, however, it's possible that the "end" of seeing major failures due to major Windows version number upgrades is nigh, at least until the next change of direction. Only the early adopters of Windows 10 will suffer. I still haven't decided whether I will be one of them, insofar as my use of Windows goes. I also use Linux, so if bad things happen on the Windows side, I'm only out gaming... so it's not as insane as it seems.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:wtfsrsly by lott11 · · Score: 1

      Ho!! Microsoft has run the numbers, it is not what is wrong with there software. It gathering all info of there customers, to be sold to some other company. Read the privacy policies they can read your chats, email, logs, histories & temp files. What dose this mean you have no privacy at all. It would not matter if you use Firefox, chrome, Opera, tor, or any other web browser. Any software that is being run on there OS is open to them at any time. They do not need your encryption password or even the need to ask for your permission. You would have all ready given up that right, at the agreement to using there software. Read it is open to interpretation by any lawyer and this are the loopholes to be use to incriminate anyone. For what means that is to use by anyone that request that info or there partners & or third part parties. Like your music, games, software, or anything that you may say a bought any thing. This quick way of profiling your or any one that uses the PC. And you are such a loving and trusting bunch. You would gladly give you life to them for what a faster browser, of more comparable software. So? what is you privacy worth!

    9. Re:wtfsrsly by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Read the privacy policies they can read your chats, email, logs, histories & temp files.

      It's clear that they can do this with the beta testers, it's part of the deal. It's not clear that they can do this (legally) with eventual users who don't opt in to some sort of program. If they did it to everyone by default, eventually some congresscritters would be pissed off and take a gigantic shit on them.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:wtfsrsly by lott11 · · Score: 1

      Do you really think a congressman or the senators would care. No! all that matters to them is who can put more cash in there pockets. Google, Facebook, Twitter, Apple, the bank and on & on they all make money selling your profile. That is the way it has been for the past 20 years, what makes you think this would change. And this was the privacy form that I was reading was for the new agreement for windows 10 for July 29 2015. I stop being an alpha tester years ago, do you think that beta is any different. And for the past week the little notification has bugged me,. So before saying yes a looked at all the contract agreements for the new OS. And yes it is state as such, http://www.microsoft.com/priva... this not for Beta Or Alpha testing this mean for users PC And Cell phones. It just gets broken down in to different places of the agreement, but that is what it all comes down to. Like I stated read,. The NSA dose not need to circumvent anything you will do it your self. Windows is not my primary platform to work just to game, that is Linux & BSD is for work. Even if I was given no choice on the matter of OS, I would put it in VR inside a sand box. With no internet access, that would be the only way I would use it now. All communication have been compromised since day one. All telecommunications have and will always be intercepted, it's simple all they have to do is send it outside of the border and back. That makes it legal and since it is no longer a local call web search or what ever. That is the job of governments, control and intimidate through there populists.

    11. Re:wtfsrsly by lott11 · · Score: 1

      Tell me is the web a centralized network,! No? Why! It is not for efficiency, was it done to get any message on time. No! It was made to verify all that would be sent will be the same from one end to the other. The HASH has to match up to it's maps. Making communications a stander form on the net. If anything was encrypted.

    12. Re:wtfsrsly by lott11 · · Score: 1

      Do you really think a congressman or the senators would care. No! all that matters to them is who can put more cash in there pockets. Google, Facebook, Twitter, Apple, the bank and on & on they all make money selling your profile. That is the way it has been for the past 20 years, what makes you think this would change. And this was the privacy form that I was reading was for the new agreement for windows 10 for July 29 2015. I stop being an alpha tester years ago, do you think that beta is any different. And for the past week the little notification has bugged me,. So before saying yes a looked at all the contract agreements for the new OS. And yes it is state as such, http://www.microsoft.com/priva... this not for Beta Or Alpha testing this mean for users PC And Cell phones. It just gets broken down in to different places of the agreement, but that is what it all comes down to. Like I stated read,. The NSA dose not need to circumvent anything you will do it your self. Windows is not my primary platform to work just to game, that is Linux & BSD is for work. Even if I was given no choice on the matter of OS, I would put it in VR inside a sand box. With no internet access, that would be the only way I would use it now. All communication have been compromised since day one. All telecommunications have and will always be intercepted, it's simple all they have to do is send it outside of the border and back. That makes it legal and since it is no longer a local call web search or what ever. That is the job of governments, control and intimidate through there populists. Tell me is the web a centralized network,! No? Why! It is not for efficiency, was it done to get any message on time. No! It was made to verify all that would be sent will be the same from one end to the other. The HASH has to match up to it's maps. Making communications a stander form on the net. If anything was encrypted. And who made this standers was it a developer under who’s orders. And it is now illogical, to say it is now legal to the same. What is good for the goose is not good for the rest. Kiss my ass.

  8. A saying comes to mind by roman_mir · · Score: 1

    'Beware of Greeks bearing gifts' is not just a saying or anal sex reference. Now, I haven't touched ms products in near a decade and this will not at all change that, but many are ready to give up anything for free cheese. But you know where you find free cheese, right?

    OTOH I understand MS. In our days of companies getting billions of dollars in the stock market not for making profits from paying customers but for giving free stuff away, MS wants to get onto that bandwagon as well. What is easier, building a product and marketing it and selling and making limited profits on transactions or giving stuff away for free and 'generating buzz' by having millions of 'eye balls', never mind these are fickle, never paying usersl. As long as the Fed keeps printing and pushing artificially low interest rates and thus causing bubbles by providing huge incentives and means to gamble there are fewer and fewer reasons to build valuable products as opposed to giving away something free of charge and getting money from this inflation and search for yield.

    MS was always late to the market of ideas though. They missed at least 2 bubbles this way. I wonder if they will have enough time to cash in now before the bond market collapse?

    --
    You can't handle the truth.
    1. Re:A saying comes to mind by mark-t · · Score: 1

      'Beware of Greeks bearing gifts' is not just a saying or anal sex reference

      I thought it was a reference to the tale about the Trojan Horse

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
    2. Re:A saying comes to mind by omnichad · · Score: 1

      or anal sex reference

      Trojan horse is not a euphemism.

    3. Re:A saying comes to mind by omnichad · · Score: 1

      At least the horse is using protection.

  9. Just spent a Weekend TRYING to Use 8.1 by TechnoGrl · · Score: 1, Interesting

    set it up in a VmWare... and it's horrid....horrible....unusable...wretched. What were they thinking!
    Windows 7 was finally a stable and decent OS after the Vista fiasco and then they decided to take away the start menu and replace it with...uselessness.

    It was this downhill trend that turned me from a Windows developer since Windows 3 (yes 3 LOL) to OS X. Today I downloaded the Eval copies of both the Enterprise and regular editions and I'll suppose I'll wait until next week to eval them but after wasting a day and a half on that 8.1 POS I don't have high expectations. I miss .NET but Windows just became too much of a grind.

    --
    ----- In Your Cubicle No One Can Hear You Scream...
    1. Re:Just spent a Weekend TRYING to Use 8.1 by gstoddart · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Honestly, install Classic Shell, follow the instructions you can find on the intertubes to make the Metro crap almost completely go away, get rid of their stupid start screen altogether, disable the Windows store and the apps ... and then just realize that the crap Microsoft has "innovated" is useful for touch screens, and beginning users and get on with their life.

      Windows 8.1, once you remove the crap interface stuff Microsoft put into it, is a stable platform with a Start menu, which looks like it has for years.

      I had to track down what update Microsoft snuck in as an "important update" which immediately started nagging me to install Windows 10 so it would leave me in peace. I fully expect to have to do that again because I'm sure Microsoft is going to try to decide for me that I really did intend to upgrade.

      Sorry, Microsoft. It's my computer, not yours. I'll fucking decide when to upgrade the OS, and I'm not using my time and resources to be a damned beta tester for you.

      Out of the box, Windows 8.1 is nothing but crap interfaces optimized for tablets, but terrible as a desktop. Get rid of the Metro crap and run Classic Shell, and it's pretty nice.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Just spent a Weekend TRYING to Use 8.1 by geoskd · · Score: 1

      Honestly, install Classic Shell, follow the instructions you can find on the intertubes to make the Metro crap almost completely go away, get rid of their stupid start screen altogether, disable the Windows store and the apps ... and then just realize that the crap Microsoft has "innovated" is useful for touch screens, and beginning users and get on with their life.

      Or, for the same amount of effort and frustration, just install one of the Linux variants and try an OS where at least you don't get charged for the privilege of being abused...

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    3. Re:Just spent a Weekend TRYING to Use 8.1 by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or, for the same amount of effort and frustration, just install one of the Linux variants and try an OS where at least you don't get charged for the privilege of being abused...

      Nice idea, I keep seeing people saying that...

      But Linux doesn't run Windows programs and there are a LOT of Windows only programs.

      Until that changes, Linux isn't an option...

    4. Re:Just spent a Weekend TRYING to Use 8.1 by dave420 · · Score: 1

      And then realise you have to install a VM because you can't get your required apps to work, and WINE doesn't support them. Then you have the worst of both worlds! Nice!

    5. Re:Just spent a Weekend TRYING to Use 8.1 by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Yeah? And my tax software? The thing to update my navigation GPS? The thing to update my golf GPS? The software which came with my camera? iTunes?

      Every other damned thing for which there isn't an equivalent on Linux?

      Sorry, I've been using Linux since 1993. It has its places and uses.

      But if you think it's a viable replacement for all Windows stuff, you are utterly delusional.

      It too me many years to eventually say "fuck it", and go with having a Windows machine ... but I got there because there are many things I wish to do with my computer that to this day utterly suck on Linux. And I have zero interest if fucking around with a bunch of crap which almost works.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    6. Re:Just spent a Weekend TRYING to Use 8.1 by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Honestly, install Classic Shell, follow the instructions you can find on the intertubes to make the Metro crap almost completely go away, get rid of their stupid start screen altogether, disable the Windows store and the apps ... and then just realize that the crap Microsoft has "innovated" is useful for touch screens, and beginning users and get on with their life.

      Epic fail. If I have to do that to even start using it, it is wrong.

      Windows 8.1, once you remove the crap interface stuff Microsoft put into it, is a stable platform with a Start menu, which looks like it has for years.

      Windows has become ever more convoluted over the years. 8.1 does not offer improvements. It uses more disk space, more RAM, and more CPU than ever before. In Windows 7, there are several dozen process running at any given time that I have no need of and can not turn off without crashing the operating system. Those processes more than doubled from Windows 7 to Windows 8.

      You can argue all you want that they provide awesome services that make my life so much easier... but it is not true. I do not need port 445 sitting there listening. I do not need their fancy DNS services. I do not need half of the processes opening up under svchost.exe and hiding themselves. I do not need Active Directory subsystems functioning at home. I do not need my operating system to try and discover shit on the network. I do not need my operating system trying to force an election to see who wins (pun not intended) the ability to be authoritative about Microsoft protocols on my network. I do not need my operating system trying to enforce DRM. I do not need my operating system to continually multiply the number of hidden places program can start from.

      The product is shit. 8.1 is worse shit than 7, and by definition, 10 will be worse shit than 8.

      Install a fucking cover over the shit and call it good to go? Stop smoking that stuff my friend. Just stop. Lipstick on a pig does not fool me.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  10. Reminds me of the old Windows upgrade model. by o_ferguson · · Score: 1

    Where you would buy the cheap "upgrade" CD for the new version of the OS, and when it asked you to insert the CD from the old version for verification that this wasn't a new instal, you just pointed it at its own root directory for an immediate pass.

    --
    - In Soviet Korea, only old people loose all their bases to Natalie Portman's petrified hot grits overlords.
    1. Re:Reminds me of the old Windows upgrade model. by omnichad · · Score: 1

      I did something similar to do a reinstall on an upgraded machine to avoid having to reinstall the OEM software.

      Instead, I installed the upgraded version fresh without activating, then upgraded that with an upgrade install. I think that was Windows 7.

  11. there's no subscription in the sense you think. by gl4ss · · Score: 4, Interesting

    he's senile or out of loop of what his approved or ms approved tactic leads to.

    the tactic is fairly simple, to get as many users to windows which is post win 7. that is, to get as much users to sign up for ms accounts and more importantly to use the store to download their software.

    that's the "subscription". not anything else.

    and giving away windows licenses to people who ask? that's been a microsoft tactic for half a decade now at least. if you have a smallish business, home/edu user or whatever and have been paying windows(not counting bundled with your laptop or whatever) then you're in minority by now. they've been shoveling the shit out as marketing tactic for a long time now. giving away windows 10 licenses to beta installers is not surprising at all.

    and heck how many of those don't have already a windows 7 or 8 license that would be eligible for upgrade anyways? very fucking few. in the west practically everyone who has a new enough computer to run windows 10 already was covered to get it for "free".

    and yes we are quite sure windows 10 will launch as non subscription just a normal thing and that it will be free for win7 and up upgraders. the microsoft pushed ad through the windows update has made that painfully clear for everyone who actually uses windows and thus might give a shit about windows 10 anyways.

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    1. Re:there's no subscription in the sense you think. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > out of loop of what his approved

      I think, by definition, that isn't true. He runs the company. He is the loop.

    2. Re:there's no subscription in the sense you think. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      he's senile

      That's scary since Obama almost appointed Secretary of Commerce. Source:

      http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/27/nation/na-commerce-secretary27

      Imagine a Secretary of Commerce that communicates so poorly and with so many contradictions. My wife is a Principal Strategist with Microsoft for Azure and Office365, and even she doesn't know if Ten will be free and/or require a subscription after one year. She should know because it greatly affects their planning.

    3. Re:there's no subscription in the sense you think. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Can you elaborate on that? I'm a home user, how do I get a free Windows 8.1/7 licence from Microsoft? You said they were giving them away to people who ask...

      You are right about the subscriptions though. It's all about driving people to the Windows Store, and making that into the kind of cash cow Google Play or Apple's store is.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    4. Re:there's no subscription in the sense you think. by bored · · Score: 2

      Probably not what you mean, but http://www.microsoft.com/en-us... and then after 90 days use the slmgr rearm trick.

      I'm not sure about 8.1 enterprise but other versions have allowed this trick 3 time, then you boot from a disk, clear some registry keys and start the whole process over again. Or ignore the "your windows isn't genuine" if you use one of the OEM keys you can find via google.

    5. Re:there's no subscription in the sense you think. by rioki · · Score: 2

      That is what you call piracy, not Microsoft "giving away Windows to everybody who asks". Your approach is no different that sourcing one of the rogue MSDN keys.

    6. Re:there's no subscription in the sense you think. by jbrown.za · · Score: 2

      My wife is a Principal Strategist with Microsoft for Azure and Office365

      Let me correct that for you:

      My wife was a Principal Strategist with Microsoft for Azure and Office365

    7. Re:there's no subscription in the sense you think. by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      whether the cost benefit analysis has been done

      Yes it has. The costs are damn near zero the let people download software they can reproduce infinitely from servers they already on using bandwidth they already pay for. There are essentially no fixed costs beyond what is already sunk developing the product. The variable costs are so small at the scan Microsoft does anything they don't matter. So cost being nearly 0; the benefit does not need to be especially high.

      Consumers don't buy Windows any more. They by new PCs/Laptops. The enthusiast era is completely over now. Its the appliance era now. Yes there may be more in absolute numbers, PC enthusiasts as ever but the part of the market they make up is tiny compared to the whole. A good portion of the ones that are left run Linux or something else. That leaves the games half of whom like to be on downlevel revs of Windows anyway.

      So there are no lost sales here. OEMs will still buy licenses, Business will still buy licensing agreements or retail licenses.

      So there are real downsides. Its a reasonable return the strategy of the late 80's and early 90's make Win/DOS easy to pirate. Then you control the platform. You can make your money selling them Office licenses, and server products. Control of the platform lets you lock out the competition.

      Fast forward to today same deal. Get them all into your app store. You can up sell them on more stuff from there. Only its better because now you don't even need to make that other stuff, you let other people do it and just take a cut.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
  12. What's the catch? by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

    I find it hard to trust a company like Microsoft to give away an upgrade (that supposedly improves a thing or two) for free without some catch. Do they guarantee full service and support? Will there never be a subscription fee for any features? Will windows 10 never pester me with any advertisements or force software on me that I don't want? Will all the features remain active indefinitely in the future? Will the new rolling release upgrade schedule never send my PC into some infinite upgrade loop or blue screen of death?

    If I had good faith that the answer is "yes" to all of these questions, then I'd upgrade. But I don't have this faith, so I'll rather pass this upgrade until I buy a new machine or until there is some compelling reason to upgrade.

    1. Re:What's the catch? by m00sh · · Score: 1

      I find it hard to trust a company like Microsoft to give away an upgrade (that supposedly improves a thing or two) for free without some catch. Do they guarantee full service and support? Will there never be a subscription fee for any features? Will windows 10 never pester me with any advertisements or force software on me that I don't want? Will all the features remain active indefinitely in the future? Will the new rolling release upgrade schedule never send my PC into some infinite upgrade loop or blue screen of death?

      If I had good faith that the answer is "yes" to all of these questions, then I'd upgrade. But I don't have this faith, so I'll rather pass this upgrade until I buy a new machine or until there is some compelling reason to upgrade.

      My suspicions are the Windows Store thing.

      Kind of like giving Internet Explorer for free back then but free Windows 10 to gain access to the app download market. Microsoft could become Steam + App Store. Plus, this probably would lead to phone and XBox sales as well.

      Plus, Windows 10 is a minor upgrade anyways. It is just some minor UI improvements. Plus, moving people from Windows 7 and 8 to free 10 makes it easier to support since they can just tell people to upgrade to 10 if they have a problem.

    2. Re:What's the catch? by DrXym · · Score: 1
      They've made it clear in past statements that they want to go to a software as a service model. So I think it is very likely that at least some consumer versions of Windows will do some insidious things - advertising, artificial ringfencing of "premium" features that can be unlocked for a low, low price, cloud services & storage, moving functionality out to the app store (games, backup software etc.).

      I don't think professional and enterprise users will be happy about this so they'll have to sell a conventional licenced version too.

  13. What the hell kind of question is that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Did a multi-billion dollar company do a cost-benefit analysis on how they're choosing to release their flagship product?

    I'm going to go with yes.

  14. I don't care at this point, as a systemd refugee. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I'm proud to say that I've been using Debian since the late 1990s. I started using it, and continued to use it, it because it was free, it was stable, it was secure, and it just worked. It's rare to find a group of people who can put out a quality Linux distro, year after year, but the Debian project managed to do just that. But things have totally changed with the recent Debian 8, which includes systemd. I've had so many problems with it, including a number of instances where issues with systemd prevented my computers from booting fully. I can live with one such incident. I could probably even live with two. But when doing routine updates of my Debian system very often means that it won't boot, and I'll have to waste a lot of time investigating why and fixing it, well I just can't put up with that. It really bothers me, because I want to keep my system secure and updated, and this was never a problem before systemd got involved. I used to update my Debian system almost daily and never had problems like I've had since they switched to systemd.

    I never expected to say this, but I'm at the point where I'm willing to try Windows again. I'm even willing to pay for it. If Windows 10 can deliver me a stable and secure environment that just works, I'll go for it. My trust in the Debian project is gone, I don't particularly like the other Linux distros, and FreeBSD doesn't work well on my laptop. It's unbelievable to me, but systemd has pushed me to the point where I'm seriously considering Windows 10 once it's available.

  15. VirtualBox Display Adpater Not Supported by hduff · · Score: 1

    So . . . no upgrade for me

    --
    "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
  16. Re:I don't care at this point, as a systemd refuge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    systemd prevented my computers from booting

    And, swallowing stderr and ignoring nonzero exit statuses makes it very hard to troubleshoot. Most daemons have good error messages as to why they don't start, so it's frustrating when there's no way to see them except to start the daemon by hand. A simple typo in a config file can lead to hours of frustration since the error message isn't logged in the journal.

    I recently switched to Debian 8 after Red Hat left most of my servers unable to boot after upgrading since it no longer includes support for software RAID at boot. The fix is easy if you know how. Just add this line to /etc/dracut.conf:

    add_dracutmodules+="mdraid"

    And, reinstall your kernel package. Red Hat must have had a lot of customers complain because they knew exactly what to do before I even finished describing the problem. Try troubleshooting a systemd problem while you can't even mount root. That was painful.

  17. Sorry thing by DaMattster · · Score: 1

    That even though Windows 10 is free, someone is still going to have to PAY me to install it. I bleed open source, be it BSD or Linux. Both are fantastic operating systems.

  18. No Media Centre? No thanks. by mfearby · · Score: 1

    My media centre PC (Win 7) has been offering me a Win 10 upgrade for a few weeks, but I'm not taking it because I'll lose media centre. Eventually I'll have to go back to Myth TV I guess, but I have enjoyed veging out these past few years with something that's easier to setup and use with my MCE remote.

    1. Re:No Media Centre? No thanks. by mfearby · · Score: 1

      As far as I'm aware I'm getting the electronic guide from the digital transmission. If it stops working then I guess I'll be going back to Myth TV.

  19. Re:I don't care at this point, as a systemd refuge by F.Ultra · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Why does this clearly wrong statements keep getting posted? It should be well known by know by everyone that systemd has captured stderr and uses the exit status since day one. In fact the old SysVInit was the one that didn't capture stderr at all or cared about the exit status.

  20. Except they haven't... by Junta · · Score: 3, Informative

    They were cagey and had some misspeaks along the way, but the final picture is shaping up: Only those who are currently entitled to a currently supported Windows release level product license are entitled to Windows 10. Full stop. In short, it seems they are trying to rework their product development scheme to simplify their offering and reduce their exposure on support lifecycles while redefining the consumer space to enable them to keep up with their competition timelines on more equal footing (all the 'supported' desktop/mobile platforms abandon users pretty quick compared to microsoft).

    The initial confusion around pirated copies: only genuine copies get to be 'genuine' Windows 10 versions. Basically the statement about update turns out to be a non-statement, though they allude to some 'attractive' offer.

    The recent confusion that any Windows 10 previewer gets it for free: "It’s important to note that only people running Genuine Windows 7 or Windows 8.1 can upgrade to Windows 10 as part of the free upgrade offer." They edited the blog post to basically say 'no you are not entitled to a free copy just because you ran Windows 10 during preview".

    So that's the strictly legal side. From a technical perspective, I wager that blog post hints at the reality that preview users will be able to get 10 for free fully activated without MS being the wiser, just without legal entitlement to do so.

    I think if MS published numbers on Windows revenue from system vendors versus retail sales, we'd see that retail sales of Windows is a drop in the bucket. It seems entirely likely that the retail pricing is like list price of a vehicle: it's there to make you feel like you are getting a better deal when it gets 'included' with a device. All these shenanigans that let determined illegitimate users run Windows 'Genuine' are not worth addressing, because the opportunity cost is just not there in any realistic view of the world. They can selectively audit folks that *would* represent an opportunity cost and that threat keeps the viable revenue stream running from the world that actually licenses Windows in significant volumes: OEMs and corporate users. Yet they do make those people go through shenanigans so there can be no mistake, that someone is knowingly violating their agreements and that is not ok, so you better buy a copy of windows, or just give a little extra money to an MS partner and get new hardware while they are at it.

    Of course the reason that the shenigans work is that MS licensing/'genuine' program is so convoluted, there are several scenarios and times when MS has no hope of masking illegitimate users without hitting some legitimate users. For example, in the 'Insider' case, it's probably the case that MS won't be able to stop a non-entitled user without also screwing over a Windows 7+ user that replaced their Windows 7+ platform with Windows 10 preview, probably losing the ability to prove to installer/activation servers they once had Windows 7+ genuine. Or maybe they could, but would require them to reinstall Windows 7/8/8.1 before update to Windows 10, which would just blemish their image just to keep it out of the hands of some people who weren't going to be giving MS money by any stretch.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  21. license state by kimvette · · Score: 1

    "pirates can come in the side door and it really doesn't matter what the state of their Windows license is, they can get Windows 10 for free."

    I own three licenses for Windows 7 Pro; two vanilla OEM system licenses, and one Dell OEM license.

    Does the above mean I can install on additional systems, not enter the serial number and go past the grace period (including the three allowed grace period resets) and download Windows 10, and suddenly legitimize those licenses, and keep the legit licenses installed on my existing systems?

    If so, I'm going to finally build the HTPC that I've been keeping a home-theater-style PC case hanging around for.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  22. Slow news day by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    TFA is utterly void, you can skip it.

  23. we'll all be on android/chromebox shortly by mix_left_and_right · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    I have a chromebox pc (cost about 160 bucks) and an android tablet that dual boots with windows 8.1 (costs about 99 bucks). Both the android tablet and the chromebox work great. I see no need for windows any further. I am typing this on a windows 7 pc, but when it goes down, that will be the last windows only computer I buy. As for linux, been trying it since 1999. Always had hardware problems with it.

  24. What portion will get it "free". by Bohnanza · · Score: 1

    It seems that the author and /. still believe that hobbyists, pirates and hackers make up a significant fraction of the total number of PC users. Regular people and businesses buy new laptops and PCs all the time, and they will not be getting Windows 10 "for free". MS knows they will get just as much money, and probably save a bunch by no longer fighting with this comparatively small number of users.

    --

    -----

    Sorry, I'm only a 1336 h4x0r.

  25. Re:Free lunch don't exists. by jellomizer · · Score: 2

    It is about stopping switching.
    Many of the Windows 7 and Windows 8 PC are getting close to their end of life.
    For many a refresh of the OS will bring new life to these systems. Also prevent switching to Linux. As well getting a new system (say a tablet)

    While we get more and better hybrid ultrabooks out.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  26. Dear Microsoft. by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Stop being retards.

    Make windows 10 FREE for home or personal use. Purchased License required for anything else, it's really brain dead simple and protects your income stream as business licensing is 90% of your revenue from the OS. You will still charge DELL and HP and others got the OEM licenses if they want it pre-installed on their computers. AS they would not dare to sell a PC with no OS installed to the drooling masses.

    But home users that have an IQ above 60 that can install it on their own? give it to them for free and utterly destroy the piracy of your OS.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:Dear Microsoft. by CastrTroy · · Score: 2

      That or make it much cheaper for those doing home builds. It's currently around $100 for a Windows license if you build your own machine. When you can build a computer for $400, then $100 is a lot to ask for the OS. It's probably one of the major reasons companies like Dell and HP are in business.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  27. Re:Underneath: Typical Microsoft abuse??? by Njorthbiatr · · Score: 1, Troll

    Nadella turned the company around.

    You would be a completely blithering moron not to invest in their stock right now.

  28. Windows Tax will still apply, and nobody wants it by xiando · · Score: 1

    Just two quick points: 1) I do not use Windows and I never wanted a copy of Windows but I have paid for a Windows license numerous times when buying hardware. Even now in 2015 it is as good as impossible to buy a laptop that is not Windows-infected and taxed. It really is sad that it is still not possible to buy a OS-free laptop. I suspect this is partly because hardware companies are paid to bundle garbage with their Windows-installations but who knows. 2) A lot of us do not want Windows regardless of the price and will not pay for it and will not run it even if we actually paid for it (through buying hardware with a Windows tax). Microsoft giving this garbage away sound like a great idea for them since it may convince some of those who will not pay for it to use it. ..but then there's people like me who won't touch it even if they force me to buy a Windows license when buying hardware or throw free copies of it at me..

    --
    9/11: Never forget it was a false-flag operation
  29. seems perfectly intentional to me by caitriona81 · · Score: 2

    1) Small-time pirates are not worth the time and energy to prosecute, but they support an ecosystem that makes it easier for the big fish to find the cracks and leaked license keys that allow them to pirate on a larger scale. Getting the small time pirates in the side door delegitimizes the black market and makes it more likely people dipping into that market are the people they do want to focus on.
    2) Microsoft now sees competition in the PC operating system space.as inevitable but wants to keep as much mindshare as possible to avoid jeopardizing their very lucrative place in the enterprise. Today it's still taken as a given that most workplace computers will have Windows, and people are conditioned to think they need Windows to be productive. They need to milk that cow for as long as possible, and if the bulk of individuals are more familiar with another OS, that's going to accelerate the transition away from Microsoft on the business desktop.
    3) Microsoft likely has considered making Windows free, but to do so would undermine the two Windows cash cows - the OEM "Microsoft Tax" and the enterprise market. Offering a slightly inconvenient solution which accommodates the hobbyist without allowing OEMs to preinstall or enterprises to dodge their licensing cost just makes sense.
    4) Most importantly, this is a strong signal that neither Microsoft, nor their OEM partners believe in the power of a new Windows version to drive new PC sales anymore. Going forward, we'll probably eventually see consumer versions clearly become a "Windows License" rather than a "Windows 10 License".

  30. MS profits from a wide adoption by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    They must maintain an impression and ideally a fact of being the default OS.

    The money they make charging people for the OS is nothing compared to what they make from OEMs or corporations. MS doesn't really care.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    1. Re:MS profits from a wide adoption by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      I see that this is essentially going back to what they did with MS-DOS. It was essentially overlooked that people upgraded DOS to latest version on their old machines because it at least did mean that they were tied into the Microsoft environment and would therefore purchase other M$ products.

      Just tie the users to your platform, then you have them in your hand.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    2. Re:MS profits from a wide adoption by Karmashock · · Score: 2

      Its more clever than that.

      As I said, the money comes from OEM licenses and corporate buyers. The market for consumer single license OS purchases is tiny. And that is what the pirates undermine. A market that actually never really made MS much money in the first place.

      If the pirate buys a new computer, they're probably going to get an OEM license of MS Windows installed on it from the OEM. Cha Ching. MS makes money there.

      And if a big corporate buyer buys a site license... Cha Ching...

      And what encourages the OEM and the corporate buyer to buy windows? High use rate of that OS in the general population. So giving it away to pirates that are generally not going to buy your shit anyway. I mean, who doesn't know that they'll just pirate the OS anyway? Giving it away means those corporate buyers and OEMs will keep buying licenses. Which is where MS has always made their real money.

      Fighting pirates is dumb. They're not real customers. They won't buy your product. If you hammer them too hard they'll just move to linux or something... and that's objectively worse for MS then just giving them a free copy. It costs MS nothing and helps maintain their market share.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  31. Re:Underneath: Typical Microsoft abuse??? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    Nadella turned the company around.

    You would be a completely blithering moron not to invest in their stock right now.

    I thought they didn't need to be turned around.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  32. Re:I don't care at this point, as a systemd refuge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > make their whiny cause seem relevant instead of just ignorant.

    As usual, the systemd fanbois use personal attacks to defend systemd rather than fixing problems. Linus was right about how you guys ignore bugs. I love systemd, but I am ashamed to be associated with such an immature group of angry children. You are acting like an angry child. How about we attack the problem instead of just lashing out and attacking the messenger?

  33. Re:Underneath: Typical Microsoft abuse??? by Njorthbiatr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Are you kidding? They were making poor business decision after poor business decision. They've completely turned everything they were doing on their head. I know I got rated down because I must be a M$FT fanboi, but realize I'm an investor and know good business practices when I see it. Just to name a few...

    1) Backwards compatibility on Xbox One. Since the Xbox 360 uses big-endian it's no easy task to import all that to the Xbox One's little-endian architecture. But the fact they're doing this on a business rather than technical level screams a huge dedication to their users, who they could have just left out in the cold. It makes money because people will be more willing to buy an Xbox One if they can take their 360 collection with them. This is a complete reversal of the previous decision.

    2) A change to the subscription business model. The slow change to the subscription based model is a step up for revenues everywhere and demonstrates that MS is business savvy and knows how best to earn revenue from consumers.

    3) To the cloud! The cloud is just something people are going to have to accept one way or another. Because of the growing proliferation of the internet and the introduction of the IoT, everything will soon be connected to one global netspace. It's unavoidable and MS is (smartly) one of the few (like Google) leading the charge. If it wasn't them it would just be someone else.

    4) .NET goes open source. MS does care about developers who develop on their platform. Increases market proliferation. And as much as people whine about it not being enough, it's more than reasonable from any business perspective.

  34. The "bug" in Thunderbird seems deliberate. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The "bug" in Thunderbird seems to have been put there deliberately. Why would someone do that? Who would benefit from damaging Mozilla Foundation's reputation? Microsoft could benefit if people move away from Mozilla Foundation's products to Microsoft's.

  35. Re: Windows Tax will still apply, and nobody wants by BobSwi · · Score: 1

    System76 and Dell's project sputnik are available.

  36. Re:I don't care at this point, as a systemd refuge by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I just switched to FreeBSD and I'm kicking myself for not doing it years ago.

    Jails are exactly what I've been looking for for most of my 'virtualization' (Separate containers for different apps). The separation with /usr/local/ is strict. Ports and pkg cover all of my software needs.

    I just built a Kodi HTPC with FreeBSD as the OS. It supports Nvidia VDPAU video acceleration. Transmission and an autostarting VPN is in its own jail.

    Plus ZFS on root file system. I've moved the same ZFS poolbetween 3 different OSes (Solaris, ZFS on Linux, FreeBSD) in the last 7 years. Hard drives just get replaced and and the pool enlarges. I think I started with 250 GB drives and it now has 5-2TB drives. I haven't lost a file since then. It'll make a great set top box.

  37. Re:Free lunch don't exists. by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1

    I would not count on that - once users understand you can actually change the OS without buying a new box, and then undo the changes when it hurts they may start asking other questions too!

    --
    Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  38. Re:Retail/Cost by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1

    Your million is safe. No one is ever going to release a "Hookers and Blow" version of their OS.

    --
    Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  39. Re:Free lunch don't exists. by Merk42 · · Score: 1

    Both Mac OS and iOS have been free (as in beer) for quite some time.
    HINT: Even if you give the OS away for free, you make up the cost from the programs in your store.

  40. Re: Underneath: Typical Microsoft abuse??? by Joce640k · · Score: 2

    Windows Media Center being deleted?

    Hurrah! Less crapware in the OS is actually a point in Windows 10 favor.

    --
    No sig today...
  41. Re:Windows Tax will still apply, and nobody wants by omnichad · · Score: 1

    hardware companies are paid to bundle garbage with their Windows-installations but who knows.

    That's exactly right. It's cheaper to just take Windows for less than free and then delete it.

  42. Re:I don't care at this point, as a systemd refuge by F.Ultra · · Score: 1

    Of course it logs it to the journal that is there it sends all data from stderr, stdout and syslog. It even collects output from other processes that have with the daemon to do and stores them together, like systemd own actions.

    For example for nptd, here we can see that ntpd shutdown since it couldn't reoslve the dns names and systemd restarted it, it's a common problem with ntpd that it doesn't retry itself. Several of these lines comes from stderr

    fultra@ubuntu:~$ journalctl -u ntp
    -- Logs begin at mån 2015-06-22 18:39:49 CEST, end at mån 2015-06-22 18:52:45 CEST. --
    jun 22 18:40:07 ubuntu systemd[1]: Stopped LSB: Start NTP daemon.
    jun 22 18:40:08 ubuntu systemd[1]: Starting LSB: Start NTP daemon...
    jun 22 18:40:08 ubuntu ntp[925]: * Starting NTP server ntpd
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[933]: ntpd 4.2.6p5@1.2349-o Mon Apr 13 17:00:14 UTC 2015 (1)
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntp[925]: ...done.
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu systemd[1]: Started LSB: Start NTP daemon.
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[938]: proto: precision = 0.106 usec
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[938]: ntp_io: estimated max descriptors: 1024, initial socket boundary: 16
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[938]: Listen and drop on 0 v4wildcard 0.0.0.0 UDP 123
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[938]: Listen and drop on 1 v6wildcard :: UDP 123
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[938]: Listen normally on 2 lo 127.0.0.1 UDP 123
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[938]: Listen normally on 3 lo ::1 UDP 123
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[938]: peers refreshed
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[938]: Listening on routing socket on fd #20 for interface updates
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[938]: Deferring DNS for 0.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org 1
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[938]: Deferring DNS for 1.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org 1
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[938]: Deferring DNS for 2.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org 1
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[938]: Deferring DNS for 3.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org 1
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[938]: Deferring DNS for ntp.ubuntu.com 1
    jun 22 18:40:09 ubuntu ntpd[944]: signal_no_reset: signal 17 had flags 4000000
    jun 22 18:40:11 ubuntu ntpd_intres[944]: host name not found: 0.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org
    jun 22 18:40:11 ubuntu ntpd_intres[944]: host name not found: 1.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org
    jun 22 18:40:11 ubuntu ntpd_intres[944]: host name not found: 2.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org
    jun 22 18:40:11 ubuntu ntpd_intres[944]: host name not found: 3.ubuntu.pool.ntp.org
    jun 22 18:40:11 ubuntu ntpd_intres[944]: host name not found: ntp.ubuntu.com
    jun 22 18:40:15 ubuntu systemd[1]: Stopping LSB: Start NTP daemon...
    jun 22 18:40:15 ubuntu ntp[1049]: * Stopping NTP server ntpd
    jun 22 18:40:15 ubuntu ntpd[938]: ntpd exiting on signal 15
    jun 22 18:40:15 ubuntu ntp[1049]: ...done.
    jun 22 18:40:15 ubuntu systemd[1]: Stopped LSB: Start NTP daemon.
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu systemd[1]: Starting LSB: Start NTP daemon...
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu ntp[1457]: * Starting NTP server ntpd
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu ntpd[1465]: ntpd 4.2.6p5@1.2349-o Mon Apr 13 17:00:14 UTC 2015 (1)
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu ntpd[1467]: proto: precision = 0.175 usec
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu ntpd[1467]: ntp_io: estimated max descriptors: 1024, initial socket boundary: 16
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu ntpd[1467]: Listen and drop on 0 v4wildcard 0.0.0.0 UDP 123
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu ntpd[1467]: Listen and drop on 1 v6wildcard :: UDP 123
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu ntpd[1467]: Listen normally on 2 lo 127.0.0.1 UDP 123
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu ntpd[1467]: Listen normally on 3 eth0 192.168.0.3 UDP 123
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu ntpd[1467]: Listen normally on 4 lo ::1 UDP 123
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu ntpd[1467]: Listen normally on 5 eth0 fe80::226:18ff:feae:582e UDP 123
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu ntpd[1467]: peers refreshed
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu ntpd[1467]: Listening on routing socket on fd #22 for interface updates
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu ntp[1457]: ...done.
    jun 22 18:40:24 ubuntu systemd[1]: Started LSB: Start NTP daemon.

  43. Re:Underneath: Typical Microsoft abuse??? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    Are you kidding?

    Yeah, I was kidding.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  44. Re:I don't care at this point, as a systemd refuge by dfsmith · · Score: 1

    Systemd has subsumed Windows 10 already? Next thing we know it'll be running PulseAudio and kdbus.

  45. Re:I don't care at this point, as a systemd refuge by F.Ultra · · Score: 1

    So post one of those easily reproductable steps then.