Most Drivers Who Own Cars With Built-in GPS Systems Use Phones For Directions - Mostly Out of Frustration (cnn.com)

According to a new survey, many new car owners use their phones for directions despite their cars coming with built-in navigation systems. These users do it out of frustration, the survey added. CNN adds: The market research firm J.D. Power and Associates surveyed owners of new vehicles after the first 90 days of ownership. They were asked about all kinds of new in-vehicle technology including navigation, entertainment and safety technologies like lane-keeping assistance and automatic braking. For the most part, the survey found, people are relatively satisfied with the technology in their cars. On a 1,000 point scale, the average satisfaction score was 730. Navigation systems rated the worst with an average score of 687. Almost two-thirds of new vehicle owners with a built-in navigation reported using their smartphone or a portable navigation device to find their way at least some of the time. Nearly a third of those with built-in navigation used it for less than two weeks before giving up on it and using their phone or another portable device, according to J.D. Power. And more than half of people with built-in navigation systems never used them at all, according to the survey.

Comments

$300 or $400 for map update

[avandesande]

Even more reason to skip in car gps option....

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. And they charge hundreds for the actual unit in the first place. It'd be cheaper to buy a new Garmin every 6 months than buy an in dash navigation.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[ZorinLynx]

I always wondered how they can justify charging more for a map update than the cost of an entirely standalone GPS unit.

People keep their cars a lot longer than phones. So while the phone keeps getting faster and better over the years, the car stays the same and the onboard navigation starts to feel dated.

This is why I nearly laughed at my dealer when they suggested I get the car with navigation for $1000 more. Umm yeah, no. That's more than I pay for a whole new phone. Join the present!

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[MikeOnBike]

I get tired of Chrysler wanting $150 every couple of years to update the maps in my Jeep. I spent slightly less than that on a 4" Garmin with lifetime updates. And of course when I bought it the dealer assures me that free updates are included. BS, what a ripoff.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[CastrTroy]

For quite a bit less than that price you could buy a 10 inch tablet with GPS and just leave that in your car. The display on your phone for GPS can be a little small if you are trying to see the map, but a good size tablet would be really nice.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

When I interviewed for TomTom they told me a phone was not really a competitor for car navigation because car sensors are so much more accurate. Just saying...

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

Android Auto allows your Android phone to use the car's built-in GPS receiver.

Plus the real issue is that a car's metal frame acts as a Faraday cage, blocking the signal. I don't know how TomTom deals with that but I expect that a TomTom is going to get worse reception than a built-in GPS where the antennna is installed with the knowledge of the car's frame.

Fortunately this is a solved problem: have the car include the GPS hardware, and let the phone do the maps and navigation. Which is what Android Auto does.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

What they need to do is provide technology that enables you to broadcast what's on your phone to the in-dash display and allow you to use the controls on the phone. I often pick my destination before I get in the car. I'd love to be able to "sling" my Google Maps or Apple Maps or Waze or what have you to the in-car dash and have video on the dash and audio over the car speakers.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[b0bby]

I know a guy who does just that; tethered to his phone, he can do Waze, Here maps or whatever. I like my Garmin + Waze on my phone. The Garmin is really a fallback for non-coverage areas.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you get a Garmin, watch for the "LMT" models, and you'll get lifetime maps and traffic updates. They're usually about $20 extra. And you won't need to spend another dime on one (barring theft or breakage) until the maps for your area grow beyond the internal storage of the unit. Mine's a 1390LMT from about 2010 (maybe?), and the maps finally exceeded the internal storage back in 2014 when I last updated it. I put a 4GB SD card into it to keep it going rather than limit myself to only part of the continental US map. (I was crossing through parts of least two, and maybe three, map zones for that trip in 2014, so it wasn't a feasible option at the time anyway.) It'll probably still be fine for an upcoming trip to Florida this winter. I might have to get it a larger SD card. That'll be a whopping $8 expense. (Microcenter's house-brand SD cards are fantastic, and hold a price scale very well. All of them are microSD with an adapter, and the "sweet spot" is always $8. Currently, that's 16GB, IIRC.)

Considering that I spent $140 on the unit and another $8 on the SD card and it lasted 5+ years, I'd say I got my money's worth. (Compare to phones during that same time period... I've purchased 4, and they cost in excess of $2000 in total.

Get a Garmin. They're way cheaper over their lifetime than a cell-phone, they don't have to multitask, and they can free your phone up for other tasks. They're a fraction of the cost of a built-in nav system in a car, too, the ongoing costs are much less (or nonexistent), and the useful life is similar.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[viperidaenz]

in-car systems use the vehicle speed sensor and a gyro for the main navigation input, with GPS being used to find an approximate position only.

At least that's how it works in my 2005 Honda. Means it still works in urban canyons and tunnels.

I suppose an after-market system could use an accelerometer instead of the speed sensor. GPS isn't the quickest in terms of updating your absolute position. If it's running at 1Hz and you're travelling at 100kph, it's around 30m between updates.

It's quite often my phone says "Take the 3rd exit" in a round-about when I'm already taking that exit.
The reason I don't use the in-car navigation is because its maps are only for Japan, and I've never even been to Japan.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[Sharkus]

Oh I hear you. It's a serious pet peeve of mine. I have a 2014 Kia Forte 5, with the navigation system. They farm out the updates to it to MnSoft, who charge around CAD$300 plus tax for a single update (it's at least $50 for the 16GB SD card the update comes on!) and there are typically two updates a year, so you're looking at CAD$600 plus tax *a year* to keep totally updated. I've contacted Kia Canada and they don't care, they say, it's a third party and there is nothing they can do. Well, more like they don't want to do anything. I've pointed out that a TomTom Go 600 is about $300, and it comes with lifetime maps, ok limited to four updates per year, but that is far far better than the built in solution. When it comes to Android Auto and Apple CarPlay, the 2014 - 2016 models are Gen 3.0 cars and too old to have their system updated for it. Only the 2017+ cars will get it. Well, they *might*. In the US, it's a free update via the myUVO site, but in Canada, unless it's changed, Kia does not have a solution. Apparently people have been told by Kia customer care people that they'll need to purchase the update from MnSoft as Canada does not have UVO! I've also heard people with cars that are advertised as supporting Android Auto (2017 Sportage I think), being told it's a paid update, when the Kia website makes no indication of this, in fact, it indicates if you have the correct spec / level / trim of car, then it's included. What really irks is they won a JD power award and pride themselves on saying they are all about the customer, when in this case it proves that is simply not the case. They could resolve the price of Nav updates by taking MnSoft to task over it, but they seem to care not one jot about it. I have considered reaching out to automotive media outlets to see if they have any interest in a story about this, as it seems customer are getting the rough end of the deal when it comes to navigation updates.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[whoever57]

Cars in Japan have a little antenna mounted to the front bumper. I believe that this is for GPS reception.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[AmiMoJo]

The car I'm looking at has Android Auto with Waze. I need to investigate if it gets live updates and if so for how long.

Otherwise it supports mirroring your phone's screen on the car's display, which seems like the best option.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[dgatwood]

Plus the real issue is that a car's metal frame acts as a Faraday cage, blocking the signal.

A full wavelength at the lowest GPS frequency is only 10 centimeters. So unless your windows are all smaller than that, no your car is not a Faraday cage at those frequencies.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[whoever57]

in-car systems use the vehicle speed sensor and a gyro for the main navigation input, with GPS being used to find an approximate position only.

Are you sure about that? I have always assumed that, while certainly possible, it was not actually true and was just a BS reason to get people to buy the over-priced in-car system.

It's much cheaper for an auto manufacturer to buy the technology from a vendor of stand-alone systems, than engineer a new system, relying on different inputs.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean this?

The main drawback is apparently they don't allow third-party navigation apps to use it (wtf, Apple). But there are workarounds - start third-party app, play music, and put Apple Maps into carplay mode. You'll get the audio prompts from the third party, with display from Apple Maps.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[tripleevenfall]

My parents bought a new pickup with a fancy navigation system, but according to TFP, they have to subscribe to something to use it, so they don't use it. They use a road atlas when they aren't asking people to get off their lawn.

Are they correct? Is it perception or does it truly require a subscription? I suppose at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Perception is reality.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

Android Auto. It exists and most new car models are getting it. It currently supports displaying Google Maps on the in-car display and will soon support Waze as well.

Apple CarPlay also exists but like the other AC pointed out Apple only allows Apple Maps to work with it and is excessively restrictive on what apps are allowed to work with it and beyond that they also restrict how that tiny subset is allowed to work. Very few streaming apps do, making it mostly worthless.

Android Auto and an Android phone is what you're looking for. It's great: you get Google Maps on your dash. I've done exactly what you're talking about: looked up where I was going while walking to the car, then hooked the phone up and followed Google Maps on the dash to my destination. It's a great feature and reason enough not to deal with the car's crappy nav system.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[markus]

My Honda Odyssey was showing me in the middle of a building driving diagonally through the block, while my phone showed the accurate position. Both properly tracked the vehicle accelerating and slowing down

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

I drove to a park unfamiliar to me today to pick up a split half. For the entire twenty minute trip past downtown Campbell, my phone was unable to find a GPS signal and I instead navigated with a map of the route on the phone. When I was done picking up the beef the phone piped up and informed me that I had arrived.

So if it's not the car's frame that's causing me problems, what is?

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[shaitand]

You don't need new garmins anymore for $100 you can get a tomtom/garmin/whatever with maps for life.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

Android Auto is essentially mirroring the phone's display. Assuming it's not a weird marketing term for something weird like an actual Android device in the car (my car's infotainment system is a custom Android system), Android Auto is just a method of hooking your Android phone to your car and letting it get access to the car's sensors and car's displays. It uses a special car-centric UI that simplifies things, so it's not simply mirroring the displays. This is a feature, since the car UI works better when driving than trying to use the phone UI would.

Because it's just running on your phone, you get updates to Google Maps and Waze whenever they update. The maps update as Google updates them and the apps update as they're updated. All you need is a phone that supports Android Auto and any device running at least Android 5 should.

Unfortunately Waze support isn't live yet (last I checked) so you're limited to Google Maps but it is coming soon.

But, yes, Android Auto is a great feature and I highly recommend it. It's much better than Apple's worthless and bug filled CarPlay, which sticks you with Apple Maps anyway, so the fact that it routinely crashes 10 minutes after you plugged the phone in is secondary to the fact that you'll never get where you want to go following Apple Maps directions anyway.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[shaitand]

No but with all the other custom electronics it isn't that unreasonable to assume they are telling the truth. Especially when a $200 quadcopter has all that and more and is compatible with dozens of sensor replacements.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[Sloppy]

I think it's great if the car has GPS, because it has exterior antenna(s) which are going to be way more reliable than my Galaxy S4's crappy GPS, which I have to hold up or near a window to keep a "lock." But it should make the GPS results available to other systems. Then a device driver in the phone can say "fuck my local equipment, use this GPS computer over here..." That'd be awesome to the max.

(Or I could just get a new phone with a better antenna, but that just seems wrong somehow...)

Anyway, car computers suck because the manufacturers want 'em to be another videogame console cash cow walled-garden, which means the software is never going to be any good. It's the IBM mainframe of 1960s-1970s, the videogame consoles, the iPhone, etc all over again. Seems like every damn form factor needs its own "Personal Computer revolution" because customers are simply unable to exert enough pressure early in the life cycle.

We all need to get a lot more militant about preventing this sort of crap. It's my computer so stop telling me what I have to do with it. It ought to be punch-you-in-the-face fighting words from the get-go, whenever they even hint about getting in your way.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[shaitand]

That signal is pointed straight down from quite a fair distance though so if you don't have a sun roof then the roof is going to be very effective shielding (especially for such a faint signal).

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[cayenne8]

I drove to a park unfamiliar to me today to pick up a split half.

Ok..what is a split half?

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[Rob_Bryerton]

Uh, yeah, if there's anything Android is known for, it's gotta be the prompt, long-term updates and the attention to detail that the OEMs place above all else.

/s

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[shaitand]

Yes, garmin and tomtom both have options like this. I used to swear by Garmin but now I'd have to say that TomTom just does a better job. Especially since the last Garmin I had with lifetime updates turned out to mean lifetime of Garmin choosing to support updates on that model and not lifetime of the device.

"and they can free your phone up for other tasks."

What exactly is it you are doing in your car with you phone while driving? How is this not evidence your license should be taken away?

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[thegarbz]

I was a happy user of GPS in my car using a Samsung Galaxy S, a phone widely regarded as having the GPS antenna completely screwed in the original design and it had absolute shocking GPS reception even in a clear day on top of a mountain.

A car has far less effect on the signal as dense buildings, to say nothing of tunnels (I had the pleasure of trying to navigate Chicago's mix of upper and lower streets recently, what a disaster that was).

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Sloppy]

The problem isn't really even how much they're charging; it's that you can't shop around and use whatever data that you want to (or cheap out with openstreetmap or build your own data as your drive around, or whatever). If they had to compete, I doubt anyone would be complaining about the prices.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[shaitand]

As long as it has internet it would have updates because the data is on googles servers the downside is if you have no internet you have no maps.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[thegarbz]

That signal is pointed straight down

No it's not. That signal is hitting you from all sorts of angles, especially if you have a clear view of the horizon.

so if you don't have a sun roof

I see you're unfamiliar with scattering. The wonderful thing about metal and cement is they don't make EM disappear, they bounce it around a bit. I pick up on average 18 satellites (mix of GPS and GLONASS) in my car with a good signal strength. And I have a tiny little shoebox with small windows, no sunroof, and my phone is often lying in the centre console under the dashboard.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[Sloppy]

I think he means this.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

It's exactly what you think it is

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[ShanghaiBill]

For many cars, the backup camera and GPS are part of a single package, since they use the same display. So if you skip the GPS, you get no backup camera.

Starting in 2018, backup cameras are mandatory in all new cars, so they will have to either unbundle the GPS, or include it as standard.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Applehu Akbar]

"Plus the real issue is that a car's metal frame acts as a Faraday cage, blocking the signal."

Ive never had a problem navigating with my iPhone, and we're in a rural area.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Applehu Akbar]

"...they can free your phone up for other tasks."

When you're driving, it's illegal to use the phone for other tasks.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Scorch_Mechanic]

It's a quarter-cow's worth of (in this case, grass fed) beef for $8.69 a pound. A split half is roughly 90 lbs. total, half ground beef and the rest an assortment. It's basically buying a fully butchered quarter-carcass, so you get approximately the steaks and pieces that you would get if you had literally purchased a quarter of a cow. It's a very good deal on very good beef if you have the freezer space and don't mind having a lot of ground beef.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Scorch_Mechanic]

Oh damn, there goes my moderation in this comment section. Oh well.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[whoever57]

I don't think you realize how cost-sensitive auto manufacturing is. How much would it have cost for GM to fix the ignition switches?

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[AmiMoJo]

Cars have embedded SIM cards in them that the manufacturer pays for. I want to know how long they will keep it active.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[johanw]

Using one of your old phones would be even cheaper. A $500 model is easily capable of running any navigation system on it, even if it's a few years old.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[johanw]

Not here, unkess you have it in your hand. Calling via a headset is perfectly legal.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

Bluetooth audio, maybe?

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

I can confirm that they're present and used, but I can't confirm that they're the primary input. At least Mercedes and Ford both do this, and I imagine all OEM's do. I base Mercedes on experience driving under loooong tunnels in the Netherlands, and Ford because it's in the spec sheet (am employee and cannot link).

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

1) I live in Missouri, so no, it's not illegal here.
2) Playing music is a valid hands-off use for a phone that it can do while you drive. Bonus points for USB or Bluetooth with integrated controls on the head-unit or steering wheel.
3) Using a standalone GPS unit (of any brand) saves your phone's battery... for other tasks(!), either now or later.
4) Having your car broken into sucks. Having the standalone GPS stolen sucks. Having your phone stolen sucks worse than either of the other two.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[shaitand]

"That signal is hitting you from all sorts of angles, especially if you have a clear view of the horizon."

That is a fair point since there are multiple satellites.

"I see you're unfamiliar with scattering."

On the contrary I'm quite familiar with scattering and when you start with a weak signal being sent from such a long distance each bounce significantly weakens it further. Also, 10cm isn't exactly a great wavelength for bouncing.

"I pick up on average 18 satellites (mix of GPS and GLONASS) in my car with a good signal strength."

Impressive, I've never picked up more than 8 under the open sky. I don't often have a problem now but just a few years ago with my Garmin window mounted would often have trouble acquiring GPS signal when properly mounted (in a metal bodied car). Any of my devices takes some time to acquire a signal in the car and much longer yet if the car is moving. My phone does better because it maintains location even when GPS is down but if you actually check your location data you can see all the blips where signal is lost.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[peragrin]

A lot of the updates get tied I to the "onstar" account every manufacturer has now. So if you want real time assistance, full GPS , etc you have to pay $30_$40 a month for the service.

Gm, Ford, Chrysler, Subaru all have it something similar that I am aware of, haven't looked closer at others.

The Chrysler unconnect is what got hacked to remotely drive a car down the highway last year. You have to pay for unconnect if you want map updates in your Chrysler.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[0100010001010011]

Once upon a day car radios had a 'standard' size. There were single and double DIN units.

If companies quit trying to build everything together you'd have a lot of room for companies to produce separate units. Vertical integration sometimes sucks.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[Mike Van Pelt]

Google allows you to download maps for an area for offline use. I did this just a couple of weeks ago on vacation, and it worked fine.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[AK Marc]

in-car systems use the vehicle speed sensor and a gyro for the main navigation input,

Maybe some do, but most don't. They are effectively consumer units, re-badged for their brand. At most a different display to get a custom fit in the car. The only possible benefit to the built-in sensors is that you could put the GPS antenna in a better location than a phone on a dash.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[mea_culpa]

The system in my 2012 Civic is like this. When I drive through a 3/4 long tunnel my phone immediately stops tracking movement but the system in the Honda continues. I just assumed it had a better antenna or something, but even when making the slightest turn at a slow speed the navigation display moves fluid where as on my smartphone oftentimes it can't tell what direction I'm going until I've driven 50ft or more. But It's still a piece of shit and I never use it other than looking at a map as routing sucks and it is completely worthless as a navigation aid while the vehicle is moving due to operator restrictions imposed by the manufacturer.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Eristone]

Hmm... I'm only paying $6.79 a pound. (yah grass fed/free range/etc) Must remember to thank my friend.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[slashrio]

And how exactly is that signal reliably turning corners in order to reach your phone inside you car?
Inside my car it's nearly impossible to get a fix. Keeping the phone out the window fixes it.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

No it's not. It's weed slang and you know it.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[slashrio]

'That signal' that you are talking about is a signal from a lot of satellites. And granted, some signals will be pointed at your device through a window and reach it.
However, you need at least 3 signals coming from more or less orthogonal directions reaching your phone. The signal coming from above you probably won't penetrate the roof, hence no fix.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[slashrio]

Whatever, all our three GPS devices won't work inside my car.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[elmer at web-axis]

Except if you have a car designed to work in cold climate and they put lead into the glass to stop it cracking. Then don't expect too much signal to make its way into the vehicle.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[viperidaenz]

Positive. It's the Honda "Internavi" system.
It supports live traffic and map updates via IR and RF signals from networks all over Japan too.

Completely useless after the car gets exported though, and the language can't be switched to English either.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[AK Marc]

I don't know where you are, but most places don't outlaw using your phone. You just can't hold it while using it. I can text while driving. I would just have to use the bluetooth controller and "type" the text with voice recognition. Where are you that outlaws playing music on your phone while it's in your GPS holder?

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[AK Marc]

What is "fall back"? If you map your route with Google, you can select to download the applicable maps, so that you don't need data the entire trip. What fall back do you need from that functionality?

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[AK Marc]

Google offers the option to pull down maps on your route. I can Wi-Fi my maps for a trip, then go driving. 100% of maps needed, without using any data. Great for the cheap 7" WiFi-only tablets.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all do this. With newer Volvo cars, you can download the maps yourself to a USB stick which you then plug into the car. No charge for any of this, other than to buy the USB stick. Maybe some other automakers offer that as well - I don't know.

Personally I like a nice screen that is integrated into the dashboard. I don't like suction cups stuck to the dashboard, and I don't want wires snaked all over the place, and cables that stop working when they get flexed too many times. I like maps that don't use up my data plan, and that still work when you are in an area with poor cellphone reception.

But most automotive GPS systems have horrible user interfaces. Entering a new address is painful. Even with systems that let you use your voice, the process is cumbersome. With my phone, I can say "OK Google, navigate to the nearest supermarket", and it will generally get you pretty close to what you really want.

Most automotive GPS systems do a poor job with real-time traffic information. There are systems out there, so you aren't flying completely blind, but the data seems to be stale, and is only available in some urban ares.. There was a time I was on the interstate, and it told me to take the next exit, go two blocks and get back on the same interstate going the same direction. There were no traffic issues that we could see that could explain this odd suggestion. After this I decided the thing was nuts and dismissed all further "suggestions". Google generally does a much better job with this.

I was kind of intrigued by the "Android Auto" thing that some manufacturers are offering - it has the potential of giving you the best of both worlds, but I haven't had a chance to actually use any of them.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Zxern]

Weak cell signal. Most phones have pretty weak gps units that are augmented by cell tower triangulation. If it can't find a strong tower signal, you're unlikely to get a gps signal at all.

That's also why they tend to work better/more accurately in a city than a standalone gps unit does.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Zxern]

Your cell picks up the signal faster because it's also getting location data from tower triangulation which also gps signal to be picked up faster as it already knows your location.

You Garmin may have just needed updating.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[Zxern]

Non coverage areas. Meaning no signal for tracking. If you can't track your location you might as well be using a paper map at that point.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[AK Marc]

If there's no signal tracking, how does the Garmin work? My phone uses the compass and movement sensors, in addition to WiFi and cellular positioning to cover me when going through a tunnel, and exact to the cm location in a tunnel is irrelevant. There are no turns to make in 99% of tunnels.

So where are you where there is no signal for tracking? Sounds like a theoretical complaint to support a pre-made conclusion, not something to support either position.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[ZenShadow]

The only cost would be in software. Those sensors already exist regardless, and the head unit is almost always already connected to the CAN bus, so it can talk to them.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Fnord666]

That and the Garmin may or may not recognize GLONASS satellite signals.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

They try to charge that for my car too, however the ISO's are generally easily found online for most cars so you can easily update the firmware and maps yourself. I would happily pay a nominal fee(even then it feels wrong given how much I paid to have my entertainment/Satnav option added) for the updates but be buggered if I am paying the $200 they want to charge for my car, It reminds me a bit of the movie industry, they seem to prefer to get no money than a reasonable amount from everyone.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

Because everyone would toe the line when a bunch of fat computer geeks start threatening to punch them in the face. Uh huh.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[drinkypoo]

Garmin is crap too. My Nuvi 1450LMT is refusing to update and Garmin is telling me to try a different computer. I can write image files to the memory card from the OS and then view them on the device to verify but... try a different computer. But then you have the problem that the automakers just stop delivering map updates for any price eventually. I can swap the LCD-equipped entertainment stuff into my Audi ("RNS", or radio navigation system) but I can't buy map updates for it, so there's just no point. Instead I'll build a changer interface and just connect my own device, probably an ARM SBC running Linux. Hell, maybe I can port the Arduino changer emulator code to run right on the device.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[drinkypoo]

The system in my 2012 Civic is like this. When I drive through a 3/4 long tunnel my phone immediately stops tracking movement but the system in the Honda continues. I just assumed it had a better antenna or something, but even when making the slightest turn at a slow speed the navigation display moves fluid where as on my smartphone oftentimes it can't tell what direction I'm going until I've driven 50ft or more.

This is just dumb, though. The typical phone also has accelerometers and it's insane not to use them when the GPS goes out, let alone for smooth detection of rotation.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[drinkypoo]

I used to swear by Garmin but now I'd have to say that TomTom just does a better job. Especially since the last Garmin I had with lifetime updates turned out to mean lifetime of Garmin choosing to support updates on that model and not lifetime of the device.

Garmin Express just doesn't work on my PC any more. It used to, if I manually formatted the SD card before doing a map update, but now it doesn't work at all. I called up Garmin and they told me to use another PC. I'm going to use a different brand of GPS in the future. I was already pretty sure that was the case after buying Viago for Android. It literally never worked, and then they abandoned it. Between that and failing to deliver maps to my Nuvi 1450LMT, Garmin is dead to me.

It's nice to gear that TomTom is now a viable substitute, because I'm going to need one.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[drinkypoo]

I think it's great if the car has GPS, because it has exterior antenna(s) which are going to be way more reliable than my Galaxy S4's crappy GPS, which I have to hold up or near a window to keep a "lock." But it should make the GPS results available to other systems. Then a device driver in the phone can say "fuck my local equipment, use this GPS computer over here..." That'd be awesome to the max.

It's easy enough to implement this yourself. You can do it for about twenty-five bucks in stuff, not including the interior enclosure to hold the non-GPS bits. You'll want a uBlox M8N with an all-weather enclosure, a bluetooth serial device, maybe a level shifter, and an interior enclosure, as well as an automotive power adapter or equivalent. You also need a USB to 3.3v serial, or similar. Using the USB to serial you program the GPS to spew NMEA, and also configure the bluetooth serial device to act as a gateway. Having done that you run four leads between them if you don't need the level shifter or do a slightly more complex wiring job if you do, hook up your power supply, and voila.

I recently acquired a car with an external GPS antenna enclosure mounted to the trunk. My plan is to eliminate the stock CD changer and build a CD changer interface to connect a trunk-mounted computer to the stock head unit (which is a Blaupunkt tuned by Bose... meh. But it's in there) and add a HDMI/USB touch LCD to the dash. A USB to serial connected to an enclosureless M8N GPS module (about $12 with antenna) will bring GPS and GLONASS data to the PC, and if I desire, I can forward that to my phone with a bluetooth dongle.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

older gps units have hard limits on how many they can pick up at any certain time(and don't support glonass)
that's how assisted gps helps, it tells the phone which exact satellites to look for.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[blindseer]

Assuming a modern cell phone does not use any internal accelerometers for navigation I can understand why. A car navigation system will always know the relative position of the sensors to the motion of the vehicle, as in the accelerometers are attached firmly to the vehicle and will register only the motion of the vehicle. Sensors in a tablet or phone can not be sure of that since someone using the device could be holding it in landscape or portrait mode, be in a backward facing seat, in the hands of a child shaking it feverishly because it's not playing Dora the Explorer, or tumbling off the seat to the floor because the car hit a pothole.

By simply ignoring the motion sensors and using only GPS data the math on computing location gets simpler and likely more accurate. A phone may be able to detect that the motion sensors roughly match the GPS data and decide they are trustworthy, basically the phone assumes it is on a solid mount, and then use it to compute accurate data. What happens then once the GPS signal is lost? Can the motion sensors still be trusted? I can just imagine how people might react to having a phone start giving erroneous location data, people will pick up the phone and start moving it around the cabin to get the signal back. At that point what should the phone do? Should it assume the car is weaving wildly or that someone is moving the phone?

An in dash navigation system has other advantages that a phone does not have, like the potential to get more data than just acceleration and GPS. I can imagine a car navigation system would make use of data like vehicle speed and position of the steering wheel. Unless someone goes the the effort of connecting a phone to the on board diagnostic port then it will always have less information than a navigation system built into the vehicle.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

It's quite often my phone says "Take the 3rd exit" in a round-about when I'm already taking that exit.

Lousy software.

My Garmin hand-held (no connections other than the built-in antenna (plus power, though it runs just fine on batteries) uses the current speed to decide when to say where to turn. Which can be a mile or two away at motorway speeds.

Unfortunately, it doesn't take into account the speed limit on the road in between, in one specific place, it tends to say "take second exit in roundabout" just before I need to slow down to go through a small town, with the roundabout in question being on the other side of that town.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[AmiMoJo]

I've never picked up more than 8 under the open sky

You have a really old or shitty GPS. The ancient Motorola units from the 90s could only track 8 satellites, but everything since... My HTC Hero, from 2009, would regularly track 16 outdoors and my current phone tracks 26 indoors (mixture of GPS and Glonass). Newer handsets support Baidu too.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Bob the Super Hamste]

While not the question asker I had assumed it was a split half cord of wood. Also for buying in bulk $8.69/lb seems awfully high to me. I got a 1/3 this year as my dad, myself, and my sister split a whole one and it only cost us $4.27/lb based on hanging weight (I think that is what is was but I know it was in the $4.2x range) although we pay the farmer directly for the cow and pay the processor for the processing. This is also grass fed, well alfalfa, from a small herd of 12-14 cattle on 35 acres and isn't pumped full of hormones and antibiotics. The farmer grinds about $100 worth of minerals into the silage for them each week to ensure that they are getting everything they need and in 37 years he has only lost 2 cattle, one in '96 when it got really cold up here in Minnesota and a calf about 5 years ago to wolves.

As for the amount of ground beef you can turn that into all sorts of delicious things like tacos, burgers, chili, meat cheese and spinach stuffed ravioli, Swedish meat balls, etc. so it isn't a problem.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[blackomegax]

My iphone gets superb accuracy even inside the metal cage of my car. There's not much functional difference between 1 foot and 3 foot level accuracy when on roads.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[jedidiah]

They have to justify their own existence and shore up lagging moral and general disrespect somehow.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[jedidiah]

It's bullshit.

Anything built into a car is going to be obsolete by the time it's on the market. We're talking about the beaurocracy of a large aging megacorp. Many of them can't even get the auto tech right. Forget about the extras.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[jedidiah]

> 2) Playing music is a valid hands-off use for a phone

All of my Android phones have been able to multi-task. You can play music and have it navigate at the same time. It just pauses the music during verbal guidance.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

"...they can free your phone up for other tasks."

When you're driving, it's illegal to use the phone for other tasks.

Not illegal to give it to a passenger to play with though

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

in the accelerometers are attached firmly to the vehicle and will register only the motion of the vehicle. Sensors in a tablet or phone can not be sure of that since someone using the device could be holding it in landscape or portrait mode,[snip]

stop. If the phone is attached to the windshield or dashboard, it's "firmly attached." If it's handheld, it's not. The compass is a hint. There's another hint in many cars---a dock that tells the phone "car mode"---but I don't think either is needed. The phone should be able to tell the difference between handheld and fixed using ML or some simple "seems about right" Python-monkey statistics like "expect vibration if docked" and "if you see high-G movements of which a one-ton automobile would be incapable, expect undocked". The problem is not even really as hard as looking for characteristic accelerometer patterns like that: (1) assume phone is docked and execute the position assistance algorithm, (2) improve GPS algorithm to deliver confidence as well as precision, (3) compare position assistance algorithm's output with high-confidence GPS track-segments and enable it only after a record of no-contradiction.

As for the "position assistance algorithm," I would not expect it to help at all if the phone is hand-held. If it's attached to a windshield, it should be able to learn its orientation with a simple assumption: "assume the car is driving forward and not turning." This is true enough on average to converge on an orientation.

Come on, guys. Who is programming these things? Is it elite engineers able to "crack the Google interview," ready to "change the world?" or a bunch of JPMChase Java monkeys with keyboards who think swift is great because why would you write anything except a madlib AI, who think "backend programming" is sorting a column of numbers to maximize penalty fees before adding it?

Programmers used to be able to launch satellites into SPACE, using PUNCHCARDS. The GPS system itself: written by programmers! Where are they now? Have they disappeared? Are the companies behind car navigation not paying enough to employ them? Do they have something more important to do? If these overpaid preschoolers can't even figure out if a car is going forward, they need to step up their game. These are merely average expectations.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[ve3oat]

And you absolutely DON'T actually need to buy a new Garmin every six months (though it is a good comparison!). Most Garmin devices for cars come with free lifetime map updates. My wife and I own a Garmin 2360LM and a 40LM and they work just fine, mounted on our cars' dashes. I check a couple of times a year to download the available updates and the data rarely lets us down. (Only ever due to new construction.) The only times we ever lose signal to navigate is while driving in tunnels or slowly under large bridges, and we have always known exactly where we were at the time so we weren't bothered by LOS (loss of signal).

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Cederic]

The split half (whatever the holy fuck that is)?
Your shitty phone?
The mobile network?
GPS signal interference from large downtown buildings?
The wetware involved?

But no, it's not your car's frame.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[thegarbz]

Magic car.

Now here's a far more likely scenario: Something in the electrics of the car is causing interference. Doesn't need to be much. Charging of a USB device can knock out digital radio and those signals are stronger than your GPS. Physics just isn't on your side if you say your car is blocking it. Interfering with it, maybe, but that's still just your car.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[mjwx]

Yeah. And they charge hundreds for the actual unit in the first place. It'd be cheaper to buy a new Garmin every 6 months than buy an in dash navigation.

BMW have caught onto that racket, the GPS system is now free... the updates cost hundreds of pounds.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Cimexus]

I love my Garmin LMT too, but holy hell are the maps expensive if you want a map not from the region you bought it in. I'm regularly in three different countries so no matter where I bought it, I'd be screwed. Fricken almost 200 bucks for a map of Australia + NZ? That's barely less than the unit itself was!

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[unixisc]

Even more reason to skip in car gps option....

Good point. I bought my car w/ a built-in GPS for a couple of reasons:

- It is a lot more convenient to momentarily flick my eyes and look at it, as opposed to taking out my much smaller phone and attaching it to a holder attached to the dashboard

- I prefer not to consume my data plan on that, particularly since I sometimes use my data for FaceTime and VOIP calls (not always, but sometimes, like if I'm away from my home WiFi)

However, where I live now, I've noticed some unnamed streets, or even the map not showing certain streets where they exist. Given that the map is there in a 4GB SD card in the GPS, I wish there was a way I could easily update it from Google/Bing/Apple maps, and get it sync'ed. There is no reason to update the mapping software itself - the navigation works just fine.

And what's worse is I've found nobody at Subaru who knows the first thing about this Starlink navigation system, or how to update it. If only there was a way to recognize and replace the raw map files w/ the latest that's out there - maybe downloaded from Google or wherever (I'm thinking Apple, given that the Crosstrek uses CarPlay)

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[unixisc]

It's not no signal for tracking, it's places that have not been mapped out as yet. I've driven into such places, where my GPS just shows me driving off-road, even though I'm on one.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[unixisc]

My GPS prompted me to download my contacts from the phone: I said no. Neither car nor phone is permanent. But my Subaru Crosstrek does use CarPlay, and works well w/ my Apple and ironically, my Lumia 550, but not my Android.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[unixisc]

Why doesn't Android Auto just download your map from your phone onto the car navigation system? Have an SD card in there of suitable density - even 16GB is great - and then pack it up w/ the latest and most detailed map you can get on Google Maps

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[unixisc]

I have a Subaru, haven't had to pay anything to date. But then again, I have Sirius XM w/ the navigation system, and that provides the traffic info for the thing, so I'm not sure whether the Sirius subscription is what covers it.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[peragrin]

Subaru starlink is new in 2016, 2017 models.

Sirius is a separate product. That is only sat radio.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[unixisc]

No, my 2014 Crosstrek has a Starlink system. I know Sirius is separate, but that's what's needed if you want Traffic reports on your navigation

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the entire point is to run the software on the phone?

Android Auto is essentially a mirroring system. The UI displays on the car's display, but it's running on the phone. The audio plays on the car's speakers, but it's being sent to them from the phone. It's a way to allow you to run programs on your phone, without having your car manufacturer get a say in what those are.

There's more to Android Auto than just the maps. It deals with providing an interface for making phone calls, receiving messages, and playing audio. It's an entire package. It's not just for maps. Maps just happen to be the most obvious thing it replaces. And there's more to maps than finding addresses and routing. Google Maps does real time traffic and road closures - something you can't do by just transferring the map data.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[slashrio]

Man, even in a 1984 Isuzu Elf truck with diesel engine and no radio or whatever other electronics, it doesn't work.
Correction: the only electronics found is inside the electric generator--the voltage and current control IC.
Sorry about your physics.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[thegarbz]

I've never picked up more than 8 under the open sky

Sounds like you have a GPS receiver only. In that scenario you are likely to see a max of 16 on a hill with a clear view of every horizon in the ideal spot on the planet. More likely you're restricted to 10-12ish with a clear view on the horizon, so if you're getting 8 then you're picking up most of them which is what I would expect in a car.

I'm sitting in my living room about 2m from my window in a second floor apartment with a window facing a building. I can't see any sky at all from where I am sitting right now. I have a fix on 4 satellites.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[northernpaddler]

2016 and later Chrysler products have a 3G cell phone receiver (2017 is now 4G). There is an app for both Android and iPhone called UConnect Access that installs free on the smartphone. To use it, I search Google Maps for a location or POI and then Share the location via UConnect Access on the smartphone to the car. A few seconds later it pops up on the screen in the car and with a single push, sets a new location. it beats the hell out of the on-screen interface where a search takes four steps: STATE | CITY | STREET| ADDRESS and it is impossible to search or 'POI near me' 2017 is also the first year that Android Auto and Apple Carplay are supposed to be available on Chrysler products.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[thegarbz]

The signal coming from above you probably won't penetrate the roof, hence no fix.

No it won't. It will however scatter. Just like I can pickup the wifi even if I put a metal plate inbetween myself and the antenna.

I currently have zero clear view of the sky. The only aperture to the apartment is a window which faces a building. Fix on 4 satellites.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[thegarbz]

Sorry about your car. I'm going to call it user error at this point. There's hundreds of millions* of phone users right now who have no problem getting a GPS signal in their car. That you can't get a fix on three satellites when I get >12 with the phone lying in the centre console and without a clear view of the sky shows your setup has a problem. Physics works just fine.

* Actually a higher number than typical given the number of (hopefully) passengers playing Pokemon Go while driving.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[dgatwood]

Downtown Campbell, assuming we're talking about California, is a suburb of a big city (San Jose area). The aGPS should work very well there, and so should standalone GPS; there aren't enough tall buildings to prevent a GPS lock, I don't think.

However, I have seen GPS receivers just plain refuse to lock to a signal. When this happens, nothing short of power cycling will bring them back. And another problem with GPS receivers is that if you aren't using one in a cell phone, they have to obtain ephemeris data from a satellite if they have been turned off too long, and in some cases, may have to download new almanac data as well. In the latter case, called a "cold start", if the GPS receiver only finds a single satellite, without any interference, it takes 12.5 minutes to retrieve the almanac data. (On a cell phone, with working cell service, it should take about two packets of data to download the almanac over the Internet, which is one big reason why cell phones can acquire a lock much more quickly than standalone receivers.)

So chances are, your GPS moved too far since the last time it was turned on, and stupidly stopped searching for satellites after it found one, then downloaded the almanac data from that one satellite, and encountered some packet loss while doing so, requiring two or more 12.5 minute cycles to get a complete copy.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[dgatwood]

This. GLONASS only went up globally in 2011. Any receiver made before that is pretty much guaranteed to not support it, and most receivers made for the first couple of years after that probably don't, either.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[poofmeisterp]

I get tired of Chrysler wanting $150 every couple of years to update the maps in my Jeep. I spent slightly less than that on a 4" Garmin with lifetime updates. And of course when I bought it the dealer assures me that free updates are included. BS, what a ripoff.

Well, he's a dealer. Technically, he was telling the truth. Free updates are included! Pre-purchase. Even though no updates were performed, it was a "new" vehicle from the perspective of a "cool person." Hence, free updates are included. Or wait, was he talking about the vehicle's firmware after a recall notice? i'm confuuuused.

Note sarcasm. Ech.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[Scorch_Mechanic]

I live in San Jose CA and the meat came from Morris Grassfed Beef and the price/pound is still better than what I can get at the grocery store. I imagine the price difference described by you and Eristone can probably be ascribed to me being in the SF Bay Area and you and Eristone living Somewhere Else.

Plus, I didn't pay for this, my parents did. I was just the one assigned to pick up the beef.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[slashrio]

You can call it what you want. Three types of GPS won't work inside it. That's all.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[RockDoctor]

When I interviewed for TomTom they told me a phone was not really a competitor for car navigation because car sensors are so much more accurate. Just saying...

That could only be the case if in-car GPS systems include WAAS, and were being operated in the USA. This being Slashdot, everyone is going to assume the latter is true, but it's certainly not always true. Otherwise, you're going to get the resolution of the GPS system, and that's it. Quality of the sensors in this respect is binary - if it works, it works and if it doesn't, it doesn't.

It's exactly the same argument as was run up a week or two ago about "Smart TVs". You don't buy a "Smart TV", you buy a dumb display to which you connect a disposable smart device of some sort. Likewise, you don't buy a "smart" car, you buy a box of bolts that moves from point A to point B, and put whatever disposable "Smart" technology you want into it.

If this doesn't gel with your dealer's profit margins, get a better dealer.

Re: $300 or $400 for map update

[unixisc]

in-car systems use the vehicle speed sensor and a gyro for the main navigation input, with GPS being used to find an approximate position only.

Are you sure about that? I have always assumed that, while certainly possible, it was not actually true and was just a BS reason to get people to buy the over-priced in-car system.

It's much cheaper for an auto manufacturer to buy the technology from a vendor of stand-alone systems, than engineer a new system, relying on different inputs.

Actually, when I was shopping for my car, I explicitly asked Subaru to toss in a car navigation system. They suggested using the phone, but I didn't want to burn the data on that. Also, having to fit the phone every time to a holder is not just inconvenient, but possibly difficult in my case, since any phone I buy, I get a wallet case for it to also include my DL, credit cards and so on.

Re:$300 or $400 for map update

[unixisc]

I should correct that: the only Subaru that uses CarPlay is Impreza 2017. Just that the USB in my console only recognizes an iToy for iTunes

Real-time traffic

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a 2015 Audi. Would love to use the built-in navigation, but it lacks real-time traffic. That is the deal-breaker.

Re:Real-time traffic

[MachineShedFred]

Odd. BMW has had that for years - I had a 2008 335i with RTTI. Does Audi screw you by making it an option that has to be installed at time of vehicle delivery or something?

Re:Real-time traffic

[NJRoadfan]

2015 Audis sold in the USA with MMI 3G+ navigation have real time traffic data via SiriusXM, the car should have come with a 4 year complimentary subscription.

Your software is bad and you should feel bad.

[Anonymous Coward]

Open source that stuff so we code something usable for our cars.

Also, i shouldnt have to dig through on-screen menus to turn off the radio.

Re:Your software is bad and you should feel bad.

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about? One of my favorite features of my touch-screen controlled radios is that you can get in the car, gently put your sleeping baby in the car seat, and then remember that when you last parked you were listening to the radio loudly. Now you're fucked because there's no way to turn the radio down before it turns on and blasts your neighborhood and wakes your sleeping child. The best part is there is about 10 seconds between when the radio turns on and the touch screen OR knobs (just looped into the computer control logic) are able to adjust the volume.

Re:Your software is bad and you should feel bad.

[Anonymous Coward]

My radio has a "Start car at" level. I have it set to a quiet 6 ( I normally listen at about 12 ). Even if I have it cranked to max, it will be at 6 when I start the car.

Re:Your software is bad and you should feel bad.

[markus]

I never listen to the radio, but our last Audi rental car would always turn the radio on when the car was started. The only way to disable this "feature" was to completely disable the entire system including the GPS.

Guess what never got used during the entire three week trip?

Re:Your software is bad and you should feel bad.

[Applehu Akbar]

That brings up the other big reason not to use in-car navigation. When you rent, navigation costs extra and it's something else you have to learn how to use. You're much better off using the phone you have with you anyway.

Re:Your software is bad and you should feel bad.

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Well there is always Navit which gets its data from Open Street Map. It runs on Android and other OSes but is lacking in the search functionality.

Re:Your software is bad and you should feel bad.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ford did but developers didn't seem very interested.

http://openxcplatform.com/

Re:Your software is bad and you should feel bad.

[Cederic]

So turn the fucking radio down before getting out of the car?

Shit, I don't even have a baby and I do that.

In a world...

[Moheeheeko]

Where anyone with enough money to afford in car gps can buy a phone at half the cost and have it do more things, i'm surprised in car gps is even still an option.

Re: In a world...

[Anonymous Coward]

We wanted keyless entry so were forced to get navigation on our 2014 VW. The navigation sucks. Hard to input the destination (no voice input) and the system voice doesn't say street names when giving turning instructions. And with all the road construction happening , the built in map is often wrong.
It's nice technology for 15 years ago.

Re:In a world...

[tiberus]

Built in NAV, can and should provide more and better features than another device

Liked the GPS in my Chrysler Pacifica when we first purchased it. Just about my favorite feature was that it was located centrally for the driver and could easily be glanced at, through the steering wheel, while driving. It was easy to correlate the road with the displayed map. Sadly the $200 updates, lack of software updates, hokey method of address entry resulted in it's demise.

Love to have a system in the car similar to what my iPhone offers plus:

• Dead reckoning - drive in Boston and you'll know why
• HUD - cuz yup I wanna be a pilot
• Software upgrades
• Voice control

Re: In a world...

[PRMan]

Nah. 13 years ago my Acura navigation system had voice navigation for a lot of things...

Re:In a world...

[Nethemas the Great]

It's an option for the same reason you don't carry around a single function phone as well as a separate gadget for GPS, a camera, MP3 player, a day planner, and a laptop for when you need to do something a bit more involved.

Re:In a world...

[clodney]

I find I rarely use the navigation feature in my car (i.e. have it give me directions to something). But having the map with the traffic overlay is very handy. I don't need turn by turn navigation to get home from work, but being able to see the state of the freeways as I drive home is nice.

Re:In a world...

[TangoMargarine]

If I had a car like that and came to the (apparently common, here at least) conclusion that it sucked and my phone worked better, I'd be reminded of the money I wasted on the upgrades every time I drove anywhere.

Get in the car. Look at your shame.

Re:In a world...

[Anonymous Coward]

But having the map with the traffic overlay is very handy. I don't need turn by turn navigation to get home from work, but being able to see the state of the freeways as I drive home is nice.

ProTip: Look out the fucking window.

Re:In a world...

[DavidRawling]

Yeah funnily enough I can't see the M1 from my house 10km away to know if I should take the feeder road to that freeway, the highway instead, or if I should hop off the freeway halfway to my destination to skip the 20km traffic snarl.

Re: In a world...

[toddestan]

At this point your options are getting pretty limited. As in, lower end models, and then you have to go to the lower trim lines. Even if you manage to find one without the navigation system, a lot of cars are still using touch interfaces for the radio/climate control.

Built-In Navigation Updates aren't free either

[Anonymous Coward]

Built-in navigation from 2009 Toyota Camry, for example, utilizes data from a CD/DVD that came with the system. You do not get free, updated media. Last I recall it was like $150 for a newer one. If you live in a booming place with lots of development, there can be a lot of new streets from year to year that aren't on your built-in nav. May as well just use your phone - its up to date and the price is right.

Yup

[PvtVoid]

Exactly. I keep my car for at least a decade, and information technology obsolesces much more quickly than that: Just give me a useful Bluetooth connection and let me use my phone for navigation and audio. In addition to continuously updated maps, a networked navigation app like Google Maps gives me real-time traffic, which I don't get with an offline nav system.

Re: Yup

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, they are starting to do that. In-car navigation is a luxury option from at least a decade ago and probably more. 10 years ago, having a GPS built in to the car made a vague amount of sense. Or at least it would have if the maps were ever kept up-to-date.

These days, I'm seeing more and more cars advertise they come with Android Auto support. Plug in your Android phone and you can stream music through to your speakers and get Google Maps navigation through a built-in screen. It's a great feature and Android Auto is amazingly well designed.

Apple has a version (CarPlay) but really all that needs to be said about that is "Apple Maps." (And its UI is horrid, and thanks to Apple's walled garden in a walled garden support, the number of apps that support playing through CarPlay is amazingly limited and the UI they're allowed to use is incredibly limited and poorly design as well. And I could go on with reasons CarPlay might as well not exist.)

But in any case, we are seeing car manufacturers give up on built-in satnav. I think they realize it's not a compelling feature and it's not a thing worth supporting. Let Google deal with maps and don't waste the developer time and money.

Re:Yup

[Anonymous Coward]

That's hogwash. I drive a 2000 Acura TL with a factory-installed navigation system. I love using it. Sometimes, the touch screen is a bit less responsive than I would like, but it's extremely well integrated into the rest of the car, which makes it much easier to use than a smart phone. It knows where I am even in an underground parking garage. It can get me around in the dead spots in cell coverage when I'm driving to the coast. I pay $150 about every 3 years to get the data update disk for it, and that keeps it current and useful.

By contrast, the navigation system in my wife's 2012 Toyota Prius is garbage.

Re: Yup

[PRMan]

When I got my Acura TSX in 2003, handheld GPS systems were $1500, so a $2000 option to have it in the car (and not get lost, stolen or broken) made some sense.

Now it's on every phone for free, so even $1000 makes no sense.

Re:Yup

[thegarbz]

real-time traffic, which I don't get with an offline nav system

Must be an american thing. We've been getting traffic reports via RDS over FM in Europe for many years. I find Google reacts better to slow buildup of general traffic, while the RDS system on my in car navigation reacts far better to accidents, breakdowns, or issues that get classified as something other than "slow traffic".

Re:Yup

[Anonymous Coward]

We've been getting traffic reports via RDS over FM in Europe for many years.

Unless you drive a new Peugeot, in which case you'll get traffic announcements for every part of the country except the one you're in. After about a year of being told about deadlocks on the M25 while pottering around in Falkirk I just gave up and turned them off. Still, what can you expect when the ICE system runs on SMEG?

Re:Yup

[tingentleman]

My 1985 car now has a Bluetooth cassette adaptor and holder for my Nexus 5. Done.

Too clunky

[fructose]

I can see why too. Using your phone is second nature, because you use it so often. But infotainment screens are built by third parties that have to follow different rules for safety, so they aren't as intuitive. And there's no real incentive to improve, as they aren't in the 'upgrade' market. For the most part, once you have the GPS unit in your car, you don't replace it. Phones get updated every two years, and the software is updated almost monthly (apps are at least). Why use something that is 'hard' to use, not updated, and doesn't work like you expect?

Re:Too clunky

[thegarbz]

so they aren't as intuitive

Sorry to disagree, but I recently drove a VW Toureg on loan from work. It's in car system shat all over Google Maps and Tomtom in terms of usability, UI design, and the way it presented information. Not only was it super easy to use (having never seen a VW in car navigation system before), but instructions were accurate on the really large and easy to read map in the centre console, and there was an additional indication showing where I needed to turn and how far away on my dash in the middle of the instrument cluster.

Okay this is only one data point, but really this was the first time I was impressed by in car GPS. Most of the time it just gives me the shits. I just don't buy it that it's not as intuitive because of some safety rules, which pretty much don't actually exist beyond providing a warning that (ironically enough) you shouldn't use the system while driving.

Also the maps in the VW are as up to date as you want them to be with the entire GPS system loaded from an SD card that's plugged into the dash. Even my old Renault had the GPS from a CD in the radio, though the problem with that was it used up the CD player (it was the early 00s) and Renault asked for your first born for a software update.

Re:Too clunky

[0100010001010011]

European (Benz, BMW & VW) have quite good nav systems. Every car I rented in Germany was better than the best car I got in the US (even from the same companies). They usually didn't bring over all the bells and whistles because Americas usually didn't pay for them.

Re:Too clunky

[elgaard]

Yeah. Just the silly warning screens on every startup would turn me off a built-in system.

Re:Too clunky

[Anonymous Coward]

And if you've been in any OTHER car in the last ten years, you know you have one exception out of a sea of fishes.

In-car anything has generally been shit, and you'd have to be a fucking moron to use it over phone/laptop/tablet, except, perhaps, the Toureg.

Re: Too clunky

[Anonymous Coward]

If only my Toyota, which connects to a Toyota smartphone app to get gas prices etc., would let me pass an address from the phone to the nav unit in the dash, I might forgive it for not being aware of traffic...

Re:Too clunky

[thegarbz]

It also helps that throughout Europe for the past 10 years we've received traffic data streams via RDS over FM. In Australia they used RDS to display the station title, in Europe they help navigate around the continent. This was years ahead of Google Maps.

Sometimes I look at a few things in isolation and I wonder how well we as a species would do if we grabbed the best innovations from each place and adopted them everywhere.

Simple reason....

[wbr1]

These systems are built quickly, poorly maintained and the engineers have little UI experience. Then they are sold at a huge premium in the higher trim options for the car. Something like Android auto is better. Just give a touch screen and api that we can pipe apps to. Then you can use the app you are familiar with and have regular updates or switch to a new one if that stops being suitable.

Just about anyone who owns a car will own at least one smartphone, so it is wasteful in the extreme both in dev hours and materials to duplicate this functionality poorly. Take it out and give users the option to roll their own solution with Waze/Garmin/Whatever.

Re: Simple reason....

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, let us project the phone screen onto the car display. Simple.

Re:Simple reason....

[NotAPK]

Right, but "Android Auto" only works with your phone. What if you want to lend your car to a family member or friend who does not have an equivalent Android phone? They're stuck. This is the biggest problem with all-in-one devices: they do not foster sharing or collaboration. With a standalone MP3 player, GPS navigation device, and "simple" mobile phone, I can share and or all of them and never be inconvenienced, and I'll know that my friend/father/sister will get to their destination without having to field a call from my girlfriend or angry ex-girlfriend, etc...

Re:Simple reason....

[barc0001]

Depends. I've got a Mazda 3 and I think the system in it is very well designed and easy to use, with only a minor quirk for accepting an address in the nav that trips you up (no pun intended) the first couple of times until you understand that the red highlight on the QWE button will accept the address in front of you on the display when you press the selector to proceed - just an odd little UX improvement could smooth that out.

Compare and contrast with the Acura system. My dad had an old Acura TL from 2003 that the nav in worked reasonably well and the UI was bland but functional. He traded that in for a 2016 TL and holy shit I cannot believe how bad the user interface on that thing is. It's like they went out of their way to screw with you. He told me he was having trouble using it and I was figuring "eh, older people and tech", but no. I spent 10 minutes trying to get an address into the damn thing and gave up. Reading the manual eventually sussed out how to do it, but for crying out loud, you should easily be able to enter an address into a nav system without having to resort to consulting the manual.

Cost is another reason I liked the Mazda system more. Everything was already built in to the car and Nav was a $300 option with updates for the life of the warranty, unlike the Acura "give me your wallet" model for updates.

Re:Simple reason....

[AmiMoJo]

Renault are now shipping Android Auto with Waze. I'm still trying to find details in terms of live connectivity and updates.

Even so, ten years down the line... What they really need to do is make the head unit easy to upgrade.

Re:Simple reason....

[Anonymous Coward]

The one in my car could use a little UI work, but it works, updates are inexpensive, and it does real time traffic updates over regular radio so it doesn't need an always on Internet connection and in fact does not have one. I actually bought it for that purpose because I have a personal rule against things that combine GPS and a transmitter, especially when I know my travel data would be sold to marketers by the likes of Google and other shady operators (my phone's GPS is off all the time and I'd remove it physically if I could).

So what's not to love? This: sitting in traffic trying to enter an address, just finishing when traffic starts moving and...SAFETY LOCK ENABLED. Same bullshit when I get a text. If the system would show me at least part of it I could decide if it's worth messing with. Instead, I get a notification that there's a text but no information and so I can download it to have it read aloud (sort of) or ignore it. Downloading to have it read aloud doesn't work if my phone is streaming Bluetooth audio to the car, which BTW is yet another thing Apple and iPhone 7 fanboys aren't thinking about, but I digress. Show me the damned message, or part of it at least, so I can decide if it's something seriously important and worth a visit to a parking lot, or if it's something I can just ignore and go on. Hiding wanted information from the end user because some third party wants it hidden because reasons is a dead wrong "feature" of too many modern UIs.

These stupid, nanny state UIs that purport to keep drivers' attention on the road actually cause significant rage and grabbing at phones anyway when what they should be doing is keeping your hands off the phone. I can totally understand why someone would use a phone based GPS instead and it's because of intentional crippling of the functionality by car company lawyers and other basic cowards, which causes the very problem they're trying to prevent. I don't suddenly decide to ask my GPS where the nearest Chinese restaurant is while flying down the highway, but if I was such a person a car based one would drive me insane because voice recognition is simply rage inducing all by itself.

Yes, I know all the whiny control freak reasons to never ever pretend you live in the real world while driving a car and they're utter nonsense. If you think you have a problem, try to find a way to work around it and minimize it rather than just say "ban this, ban that" because it's not going to work, it's not going to help, and most of us are tired of listening to you. I don't engage in unsafe behavior, but my car, which could help me make things MORE safe, actually fights me and thus makes things less safe. What's more safe, proceeding calmly knowing where you're going because you have an address entered into your permanently mounted GPS, or making random turns in traffic driving much slower than other cars trying to find something you don't know where it is--all the while trying to pay attention to a phone mounted GPS on your knee or in a cupholder? I've seen too much of all of that, all caused by safety freaks who don't know what they're doing when they make up idiotic rules.

One of the more popular searches concerning vehicle based GPS systems, of any brand, is how to turn off the damned safety locks. You'd think people would figure this one out, but as a society we seem utterly incapable of rational thought.

Re:Simple reason....

[larryjoe]

There are pros and cons for built-in vs. phone navigation. I personally always use the built-in navigation because
-- The screen is bigger and easier to read.
-- Directions are always at the right volume and easier to understand.
-- The system works when network connectivity drops out.
-- The system never needs to be charged or plugged in.
-- The manual controls are much safer to use when driving compared to a touchscreen.
-- The screen is in a natural position relative to the driver and never gets knocked over.

There are some cons, such as
-- Lack of navigation that considers traffic conditions.
-- Old maps, since I don't want to pay $99 for a map upgrade.
-- The need to manually enter in new destinations.

However, for me, the pros are more important, and my phone is used as backup most of the time.

Re:Simple reason....

[oddware]

Simple. Friends don't let friends use apple.

Re:Simple reason....

[thegarbz]

These systems are built quickly, poorly maintained and the engineers have little UI experience.

Disagree. Firstly some of these vendors license Tomtom or Garmin so the interface should be welcome and familiar. Secondly I have yet to see a phone as responsive as an in car system to touch, even maps on iPhone (though a dedicated Tomtom matches it). Thirdly integration and UI design can be done right, easily, intuitively, and in a way that the system is safer to use (VW put the instruction in the middle of the instrument cluster and BIG, making it about less unsafe than checking your speed).

Now there is a lot of crap out there (a Lincoln I drove recently comes to mind), but there's a lot of variance too.

Re:Simple reason....

[shaitand]

It works even better just to have those people drive their own cars instead of yours.

Re:Simple reason....

[Applehu Akbar]

"These systems are built quickly, poorly maintained and the engineers have little UI experience. Then they are sold at a huge premium in the higher trim options for the car. "

Automotive engineers seem to suck at electronics noticeably more than electronics engineers suck at automotive systems. Or, maybe they are hobbled by what the bean counters will let them implement.

Re:Simple reason....

[Applehu Akbar]

"So what's not to love? This: sitting in traffic trying to enter an address, just finishing when traffic starts moving and...SAFETY LOCK ENABLED."

Now compare that interface to, "Hey Siri - navigate to Joseph Blow!"

Re:Simple reason....

[dk20]

Was hoping someone would post about the "safety lock enabled" and sure enough.

One of our cars has a built in GPS, the other two dont.

Two cars - Stop at a light or pull over and adjust the after market stick on the window GPS units.
One car - Safety lock enabled... you pretty much have to pull off the road, stop the thing and put it in park before it lets you do ANYTHING with it.
Oddly enough, it will let you adjust the radio.

Half of the systems settings are also "safety locked" and it is a constant source of frusration as everything seems to be at least 3 menus deep. And for this i think it was a $3,000 option... total waste.

Re:Simple reason....

[elmer at web-axis]

The reason I don't use my in car GPS is 2 fold. 1) unknown street addresses ('find me the nearest computer store', works quite well in google not so much in a non-internet connected gps unit) 2) being unable to program it while driving (most incar gps units wont let you add addresses while the car is in motion, this is normally not a problem is i'm alone and would pull over, but if a passenger is in the front seat next to me having to pull over for them to program it is annoying to say the least)

Re:Simple reason....

[Anne Thwacks]

a family member or friend who does not have an equivalent Android phone?

When you emerge from the basement, you will discover that people have family members and friends and they all have at least one Android phone. Even the seven year olds.

Re:Simple reason....

[jezwel]

I also have a Mazda 3 with navigation. You can self-update the music database using GraceNote, and the maps using Naviextras - both provided by Mazda.
http://infotainment.mazdahands...

http://infotainment.mazdahands...

Pretty good deal IMO. Navigation is usually very good too.

Re:Simple reason....

[wbr1]

I can't believe this complaint. One, I advocated for a screen and API. I would prefer it to be open, but android auto was held up as an example because it exists now.

If someone needs to borrow the car and does not have an Android or even a phone to link to the display, so what. They just do not get to use that feature. The could get a dock and use their phone without the in car link, or for longer trips arrangements could be made.

There is no real problem here except one you are creating. The real question is, what agenda are you following to push a straw man argument like that.

Re:Simple reason....

[NotAPK]

Wow, I'm a little surprised that you disagree with me so much.

Yes, I agree with you entirely that the open API approach is much better than closed ecosystems from car manufacturers.

However, when I evaluate what I want, I'll forego the integrated system entirely and instead choose separate devices, mostly for the reasons I outlined in my previous post.

Absolutely no agenda, just sharing my opinion on here as usual...

Built In Doesn't Warn You About Police

[IonOtter]

The built-in apps on the car don't always give you updates on traffic, and they most certainly don't give you updates on the locations of police.

Waze does.

There are long threads in vehicle forums, dedicated to hacking the OS of the console, so people can add their *own* apps and navigation systems.

Also, there's something very creepy about driving along, and hearing "Caution! Toll booth ahead!" coming out of your speakers, when you aren't using navigation at all.

Which is just one of the many reasons why forum modders work so hard to dump the stock OS.

Re:Built In Doesn't Warn You About Police

[Nethemas the Great]

Of course they do. You just need to pay extra to get Sirius' traffic advisory subscription. In car navigation/infotainment sucks first and foremost because there are a couple well entrenched companies providing all the hardware and especially the services. These companies do not have the same kinds of pressure to innovate and compete as in the mobile space. Google and Apple are trying to change that, but as anyone paying attention can see Android Auto and Apple Carplay have been at it for several years now and still have not seen meaningful adoption. The old guard isn't going away any time soon. Usually these companies supply many other parts for cars and I wouldn't be surprised if they use that as leverage. "If you drop our navigation, just wait to see what we do to the cost of your other 1000+ parts we supply to you".

Re:Built In Doesn't Warn You About Police

[Firethorn]

The built-in apps on the car don't always give you updates on traffic, and they most certainly don't give you updates on the locations of police.

The only time I was in a vehicle with built in navigation it was a rental and the system would lock the GPS system while it was in drive - and I was the passenger, not the driver, trying to punch stuff in. Truly annoying, and indeed, caused me to just use my phone.

Re:Built In Doesn't Warn You About Police

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they do. You just need to pay extra to get Sirius' traffic advisory subscription...

My car has this, and it's useless. It generally appears to be at least 15 minutes out of date whereas Google Maps is much faster. Typically, about 10-30 seconds after I come to a stop due to traffic, my nav system will advise me that there is a traffic jam ahead.

Re:Built In Doesn't Warn You About Police

[Nethemas the Great]

I guess my sarcasm was too well buried. Normally I just let Google notify me via push notification on my cell phone before I enter backups.

Re:Built In Doesn't Warn You About Police

[Mike Van Pelt]

The only time I was in a vehicle with built in navigation it was a rental and the system would lock the GPS system while it was in drive - and I was the passenger, not the driver, trying to punch stuff in. Truly annoying, and indeed, caused me to just use my phone.

This. The built-in navigation on many cars locks the whole dang thing into read-only mode whenever the car is moving. My phone doesn't have this nonsense limitation. Yet another reason I will never by a built-in navigation system ever again. (That $300 map update thing is another.)

Re:Built In Doesn't Warn You About Police

[Fnord666]

This. The built-in navigation on many cars locks the whole dang thing into read-only mode whenever the car is moving. My phone doesn't have this nonsense limitation. Yet another reason I will never by a built-in navigation system ever again. (That $300 map update thing is another.)

Interestingly Waze does detect that you are in motion and will lock you out of some things, but at least there's an override to indicate that you are a passenger. Your car knows whether there is a passenger or not from sensors in the seat and could easily offer the option if a passenger was detected. I have not seen one that does this.

Re:Built In Doesn't Warn You About Police

[Malc]

it would be rather cool if these in-car systems supported something like AirPlay (doesn't have to be Apple tech; just an example) with display mirroring. You get all the advantages of your phone without the clutter and inconvenience of having your phone mounted on the dash board. Also this would be a bigger more convenient screen size, but would really need to be more of a touch screen extension than mirroring.

I would take it to the dealer...

[fropenn]

to learn how to run the stupid thing but I can't find them on the map and instead usually end up somehow accidentally subscribing for another 6 months of Sirius / XM.

Waze is better

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a car with built in navigation, a phone with Waze, and a Garmin GPS with lifetime map updates. I use Waze almost all the time unless I'm in an area with poor cell service. If I know I'm going to such an area, I bring the Garmin, and if not, I use the built-in GPS.

I like the various notifications offered by Waze and wish Waze integration was part of smartphone integration in modern ICE systems--I'd love to just show the map from my phone in a larger size on the big screen in the center stack.

... many new card owners use their phones ...

[chuckugly]

"According to a new survey, many new card owners use their phones for directions" - I know when I'm driving my card .... WTF /.?

Re:... many new card owners use their phones ...

[Anonymous Coward]

If that's the only mistake in the headline or summary then /. is really stepping up their game.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Anonymous Coward]

Cost of a piece of paper+toner or ink: Less than a nickel.
Cost of in-car GPS, or standalone GPS, or turn-by-turn GPS on your phone (and the phone itself for that matter): Hundreds and hundreds of dollars up-front.
Stop being stupid and throwing money away on things you really don't need, and stop being lazy.

cost and UI

[Anonymous Coward]

The cost is out of line for the up to date you can get in your phone. On most the UI blows chunks. With my car you have to get the *exact* address just right to get it to take. With google/apple you can get it pretty close and it will still 'just work'.

I also got a heads up display for mine. The ONE thing it has is integration with that. It is pretty good with 'in 1500 feet turn left' and it gives you which lane to be in. Not 'turn left in 1500 feet' and you are in the wrong lane in a 8 way interstate with a fly overbypass that exits on the left instead of the right.

So I usually get it 'close' with my phone then go through the pain of getting it to import. Oh and with android the app for the car is an afterthought. For apple it is pretty nice.

Then the cost. They still charge 100+ bucks per year to update the maps on most cars. It is 'free' with my phone. At least give me the warranty period, geeze.

Re:cost and UI

[Desprez]

Have you used phone navigation recently? Google not only tells me which side the lane is on, but will tell me which turn lane to use, if it matters.

For example, if I'm turning left and there are 3 left turn lanes, but will immediately after need to turn right, or otherwise be in the right lane, it will tell me to "use the 3rd turn lane from the left" or something like that.

Re:cost and UI

[Anonymous Coward]

Been a few months since I needed GPS for anything. Did not know they added it in.

Not all interfaces are the same.

[Atrox Canis]

Technically, I use in car navigation but only through Android Auto. The native navigation works reasonably well and does have real-time traffic as long as I'm willing to pay for the built-in data link. However, the interface for its use is woefully inadequate and thus dangerous to use unless I'm at a full stop. As a Systems Engineer, I'm of course technically savvy but I am getting a little older and I have to wear glasses now. This leads me to what might be an overabundance of caution regarding fiddling with my gadgets and "infotainment" system while I'm driving. Thus, Android Auto and voice recognition comes to my rescue.

One day perhaps, in-car device developers and engineers will hire UI experts before the design process starts but I'll not hold my breath.

Why not Android/IOS ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell even Windows.

I have heard car manufacturers want to control the in-car entertainment, and safety reasons/excuses like car functionality.

Still, give us the option to pick a User Interface we're familiar with.....

Like another person said, $300-$400 for a map update? Yeah fuck that.

Yup. Not a fan.....

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not a fan of the built in GPS for that same reason most people here. Initially expensive, expensive map updates, can be cumbersome and your locked in for the entire time you own the vehicle and if it breaks for some reason, $$$$$ to fix. I feel the same way about the built in LTE business, just go to walmart and pick up a hot spot and boom there you go wifi in a car that can be upgraded anytime.

The only thing lacking with phones as a GPS is the size, but you can get tablets that LTE and get your navigation that way.

That's why when I bought my 2012 F250 I specifically said NO GPS or infotainment garbage.

Takes too long

[Anonymous Coward]

One of my vehicles is a Ford Fusion with the Microsoft Sync system. When the UI isn't completely crashing, locked up, erroneously displaying the hybrid drive details instead of everything else.... it's just too fucking slow, especially after just booting up. It literally takes 5 minutes to program in a destination. God forbid you roll the car in any direction the slightest... it will cancel your input and happily inform you that data entry is disabled while moving, then you start all over again (you can't even pick up where you left off typing).

The voice input is even worse. There's no intelligent processing... you can't just say "Navigate to 123 Maple street in Dallas." No you have to listen to it spell shit out like "Say the city you want to navigate in" using its down syndrome slow voice, then answer it, then it responds with "your response was not understood", and you repeat it 3 fucking times. I've spent 20 minutes trying to voice input shit before.

Then, as others have already indicated, you get the privilege of paying for annual map updates.

So the $800 nav system is virtually worthless to me. I end up using Google maps, which is free and takes 1/10th the time to input.

Re:Takes too long

[NotAPK]

My brother lent me his Mercedes C-class the other day. While it's a "nice car" the center console features a horrendous touch screen display. And you know what really surprised me? Just how slow it was, to the point of being painful. So even "luxury" cars get this wrong.

Re:Takes too long

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife's Lexus GX is like this.. absolute shit and crazy expensive. Half the time it is doing some weird "split screen" crap for no reson, it makes no sense and you cant turn it off.

Re:Takes too long

[WindBourne]

try a tesla. They got it right.
And compared to BMW, MB, Lexus, etc. those are PURE CRAP.

Real Maps

[Anonymous Coward]

I still keep real maps in my car. I also review and comprehend my route if I'm going somewhere new.

Not to say real time traffic updates aren't awesome, but having some geographical concept of where I'm going proves invaluable even when I do have to change routes because of a traffic jam.

Re:Real Maps

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed 100%. The time you spend learning routes on a map is time spent building an internal atlas that you can rely on for the rest of your life. GPS gets you from point A to point B (most of the time), but gives you little understanding of road systems, and no lasting benefit.

Fem Nav

[dohzer]

My girlfriend also has a built in navigation system, but it's absolutely rubbish so she uses her smart phone to find her way around.

Re:Fem Nav

[Anonymous Coward]

Epic. Same with my wife. One day we're going to go to this restaurant that is exactly 1.1 miles from the house. We drive by it every fucking day. She drives. It takes us 20 minutes to get there as we drive right past the driveway, tour every apartment complex parking lot in the area, all through these driveways and alleys, finally get to the back parking lot of the restaurant, drives right past TWO of the fucking driveways for it, down the back alley, back onto a main road, then back to the front of the restaurant where we started.

Generally speaking, destinations within 5 miles can be expected to be a 30-60 minute drive, and that's not due to traffic.

Re:Fem Nav

[Applehu Akbar]

Before I started navigating on the phone, my nav interface was my wife screaming at me.

Re:Fem Nav

[Anonymous Coward]

Fistful of hair?

Re:Fem Nav

[Gussington]

I got GPS bundled in with my new Mazda CX5 and it is absolutely shit. It looks like it was designed in the 90's. The interface is shit, the menus are shit, the resolution is shit, 2D, 3D switching is shit, zooming in and out is shit. I can't believe how this turd passed any sort of QA process
The worst part is that it won't even let you use it when you are driving. So you have to stop, interact with it, then move again. So even when the wife is in the passenger seat she can't use it while I'm driving. It is a complete waste of space.

Re:Fem Nav

[swillden]

Before I started navigating on the phone, my nav interface was my wife screaming at me.

I now get to listen to my wife arguing with my phone.

In fairness to her, she's actually a really good navigator, with an excellent sense of which route is faster... for a human. Who doesn't have access to real-time traffic data. She doesn't often beat Google, but her approach is never a bad one.

Re:Fem Nav

[Fnord666]

Before I started navigating on the phone, my nav interface was my wife screaming at me.

I believe they are referred to as the nagigator. If it'll make you feel more comfortable I can put you in touch with a company that will record your wife's voice so that all of your audio cues will be in your wife's voice.

Re:Fem Nav

[Applehu Akbar]

I have been waiting for someone to come out with a "wife mode navigation app" that would realistically simulate driver-navigator human interaction. Having your app respond to your change of mind about a route with "Recalculating..." seems so wimpy compared to the real-world "LEFT YOU STUPID FUCKHEAD, LEFT! NOW YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE ME LATE FOR MY PODIATRIST!"

My suggestion for a name: Shotgun!

Re:Fem Nav

[Anonymous Coward]

My girlfriend also has a built in navigation system, but it's absolutely rubbish so she uses her smart phone to find her way around.

Wow... did the medical insurance cover that surgery?

Re: Print it out ahead of time

[Anonymous Coward]

Pre-printing assumes all destination are know before leaving. It's often not the case.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Anonymous Coward]

Just print your directions out ahead of time and use that. Then you're not squinting at some tiny little screen when you should be paying attention to the road, or having to futz with something mounted in your dash to do the same.

Yeah, then you're futzing around with pieces of paper trying to figure out where TF you are on the map, looking for the new turn, etc.

As previous AC said, Grandpa, that's what turn by turn instructions are for. You don't have to look at anything if you don't want to.

Lockouts

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesnt help that your vehicle needs to be stationary to input anything.

Nothing I hate more than driving, only to figure out that I'm lost and trying to get my Wife in the passenger seat to enter an address on the GPS only to have her locked out.

Re:Lockouts

[dk20]

have the same issue as you. The lockout is beyond excessive from a drivers perspective (it pretty much only lets you adjust the radio) but seriously.. if the passenger is doing the button pushing do i still need to come to a full stop?

More to it than simply "frustration"

[sootman]

I think a major issue is that it's easy and common to have contacts in your phone with addresses. People send you contacts that are fully populated with info, you can search in Maps and 'create new contact' from a result and it includes the address, etc. And you have it with you all the time so you can easily update it at your convenience. As opposed to a GPS built into a car, where you have to sit there in the car and punch the info in on the screen. You can only update it when you're sitting in the car and doing nothing else. And the UI to choose an existing location usually isn't that great.

On top of that, many (most?) car GPSs don't have Internet connections to show live traffic info, which is almost as important as knowing where you're going in the first place. In fact, more often than not, I use my phone to check traffic on the way to a known destination, which means the traffic info is MORE important than the actual directions 90% of the time. On top of worrying about out-of-date info and potentially expensive updates, it's pretty obvious why people prefer their phones.

I only ever use a standalone GPS when I'm going on a long trip (over an hour) to a new place and when traffic isn't a concern -- i.e., there's nothing else to do but stay on the highway and make my exit. THEN it's worth the time it takes to punch in the address because I get a screen that can stay on without tying up my phone. And even then I'll have the address ready in my phone, too, so I can check traffic as I get closer.

So it's not entirely that car GPS systems are totally bad -- they're just way worse (in practical terms) than phones.

Re:More to it than simply "frustration"

[Anonymous Coward]

The main reason why I have never used my on-board GPS is because I have to be stopped to use it. Have someone in the passenger seat that's going to punch in the address? Better find a place to park your car.

I can change any/all of the settings of my instrument cluster and all of the settings for the media center while I'm doing 70 down the highway, but if I want to know how to get where I'm going, I have to find a rest area.

Both

[Geek_Cop]

I use both in case I get a call while driving. My car's gps system in there is great, reports traffic, reroutes automatically and the updates are free. The problem is the address entry, it is a pain in the ass if you're going to a place you haven't before. The features in Waze are getting better and better so it is my go to. So why the hell don't they just put Waze in cars?

Obvious reason

[pla]

I fall into this group, and while the reason definitely involves "frustration", it has nothing to do with stupidity or difficulty learning the new system. Instead, I use my tablet for navigation in my car for one very, very trivial reason:

It doesn't lock me out of using it while moving!

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Anonymous Coward]

Paper doesn't monitor traffic and update in real time.

Hopeless battle

[GoRK]

In-car systems such as this are a hopeless battle. There is absurd vendor lock-in because there are a whole of 2-3 companies who have built a technology base big enough to be able to offer a system that can be custom assembled for a particular year and model of car. This will then be deployed in about 100,000 cars at best and will never ever be updated or serviced after about 6 months unless there is a vehicle safety issue.

I'm not sure what the exact solution is, but in one way or another there needs to be a mandatory open standard to allow a 3rd party device to show information on vehicle displays, receive input from vehicle control interfaces (steering wheel buttons, touchscreens, etc) and interact with other auxillary systems. We have things like CarPlay and Android Auto, but despite manufactures pledging broad support, very few cars are actually being sold with such capability.

Been using GPS for 5+ Years/Never go without

[mykepredko]

Maybe I've been lucky with GPSes (GPI?) in cars but I find them to be really invaluable. Just for the record, I'm talking about a Toyota Prius Navigation (touch screen) and the Audi MMI Navigation Plus (input wheel that you can draw characters on). Both have voice input.

Interesting seeing the comments about update prices. For Toyota, I was quoted $3k CAN but the dealer could find it on a thumb drive and then it was free. Audi updates are free as part of regular maintenance. The Toyota maps, even though they were apparently updated to the current date never had a number of streets that were between five and ten years old. The Audi maps have streets that haven't been finished yet.

TFA discusses Android Auto and Apple CarPlay and neither work in the Prius. Android Auto is not available on the Audi and CarPlay sucks. I would love to plan out my route at home and then download the directions into the car.

Regardless, I find that when I'm on the road (a lot right now as I'm doing a startup), the GPS in the car is invaluable and I don't have to look down at my phone (which is a big fine/points here in Ontario) and I would recommend it for everybody.

Re:Been using GPS for 5+ Years/Never go without

[Anonymous Coward]

I have the same experience. My old Acura TSX 2010 has a superb built-in Navigation system. It is not touch-screen. Uses huge knob instead. Compare that to Toyota's Camry navigator with a touch-screen which is pure rubbish. In my opinion, having a touch-screen navigation ruins usability experience. Sadly, most car manufactures disregard feedback from consumers and switch their systems to touch-screen based ones. Thus the dismal experience (I guess it is cheaper to manufacture). Acura also has a DVD-based maps. All it takes is to pop-in update on a DVD disk and you are done.

Re:Been using GPS for 5+ Years/Never go without

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I've been lucky with GPSes (GPI?) i

GPI? Really? GPI? What sort of fucktard are you? It's a fucking acronym not goddamn latin.

Go take the genital smoother to yourself, now!

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Anonymous Coward]

If you miss a turn as indicated on your paper, you're lost. A GPS will recalculate directions if you screw up.

I use my Nav without directions

[ArtemaOne]

For directions I'm about half and half, phone and Nav. But I use my Nav system constantly to help me figure out better routes without ever using directions. It's just an overhead view that I can zoom in and out. Most of the time I don't need actual directions since I can just see where I am on a map that tracks my location. I've found so many nice routes simply from that God's eye capability.

Re:I use my Nav without directions

[Anonymous Coward]

Ditto. I tend to use Google Maps when I want the best route, Waze when I'm more concerned about police and accidents, but as you say, the overhead view on the large vehicle nav display is helpful for orientation. That said, I would never have ordered a car with a nav system, it's certainly not worth the $1,200 additional cost when my phone and/or iPad can do better for much less money. I was forced to buy this vehicle off the lot and so I ended up with the nav system. Meh. Certainly not worth what the manufacturer charges.

Re:I use my Nav without directions

[ArtemaOne]

My car was less than two years old, bought it used and it was around 2/3 the original price, completely loaded with all the extras.

Agreed!

[Anonymous Coward]

I can fully understand this, as I have a built-in navigation system in my '13 Golf GTI. I find updates few and far apart, the interface is incredibly slow / sluggish and poorly designed - touching and dragging to look around the map is just painful.

As an example of the terrible UI, you have to touch the "City" label in order to modify the selected city text field to the right. Most interfaces you interact with on a computer are designed such that you click into the field text, not the label.

Also, my phone has all my contacts, addresses, etc. already and it is easy to request directions to a contacts location. I have to manually enter this address into my cars GPS, so.....no, thanks.

Re:Agreed!

[dgatwood]

And car manufacturers are scared to death that their navigation systems could be implicated in an accident, so they deliberately neuter them so that they can't be used while the vehicle is in motion. What this means is that with two people in the car, the passenger can't look for food at a nearby exit unless you first pull over and come to a complete stop.

Re:Agreed!

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently found the option to switch this off in my car.

updates?

[bloodhawk]

I wonder how much this is to do with most people not knowing or just not doing updates to their in car Nav Systems, I usually hunt down the latest map packs ISO each year and any firmware updates and load them in. Personally I actually much prefer the in car Nav, Directions show up in front of me and it tends be more reliable than my Phone. Phone you tend to need to rely more on Voice which as my Wife found out was a nightmare recently after some road changes. Seeing a line drawing in front of me is much better than relying on a voice which can be very wrong when new roads open e.g. "At the roundabout take the first exit" becomes take the second exit with a new road, but a map in front of me I can instantly realise the voice is wrong.

Re:updates?

[Fnord666]

I usually hunt down the latest map packs ISO each year and any firmware updates and load them in.

This is the part that is probably illegal in many countries. It is an option but it's pretty easy for a dealership to check and automatically flag if you bring your car in for service.

Re:updates?

[bloodhawk]

I usually hunt down the latest map packs ISO each year and any firmware updates and load them in.

This is the part that is probably illegal in many countries. It is an option but it's pretty easy for a dealership to check and automatically flag if you bring your car in for service.

Piracy yes, checkable NO. the dealer is not the only option to get the updates, they are available for purchase legitimately online too. I actually don't mind paying a small fee, but they want just over $200 for an update, considering when I got it put in as an option on purchase when new they charged me $2k they can go to hell. My mistake I suppose for not getting it fitted aftermarket for a fraction of the cost but I refuse to be repeatedly raped for something I thought I was paying for at time of purchase as not other way to justify the high price they charged.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[b0bby]

This. In DC area traffic, Waze is great.

Always Up To Date

[Anonymous Coward]

My built-in GPS has old software and while you can buy new maps each year, they don't upgrade the software itself, which is the issue. With a smartphone app, everything is always up to date and more features can be added and offered.

It's not hard to understand why phone apps are more appealing to most.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[viperidaenz]

Stop being stupid and looking down at your printed directions when you should be looking at the road in front of you.

People's Technology Comfort Level

[mykepredko]

As I was writing the root post, I realized that I'm in something of the minority in terms of technical skills.

I suspect that people would use the GPS in their cars if they were more comfortable with using the electronics in the car including being able to connect the car to their phones via Bluetooth. Most non-/.ers generally get the dealership to do it when they take delivery and if there's a problem later or they change their phones, they do without. How many people do you see with earbuds in while driving or holding their phones in speaker mode up to their faces?

I tried to find a solid number on the number of people that have their phones paired to their cars and it seems to be something less than 10%. If people don't have the skills to pair their phone with their car, why would anybody expect them to use GPS?

Could this article be written by somebody who has no problems with technology and is surprised by the vast majority that do have problems?

Well, duh

[Anonymous Coward]

The common problem with all in-car GPSN systems that they're using offline map data. Not only the look and feel of the software, but also the map data, is out of date before you've driven your shiny new car off the lot. And to top it off most dealers want to charge you (hundreds of) dollars to do an "infotainment" software update to get the latest, still out-of-date, maps.

At least on iOS and Android phones and tablets you can report mapping errors on the spot (including photos if you want) and the mapping errors are usually corrected within days - FOR FREE.

Car don't need the toys

[Anonymous Coward]

Why install all that junk - which can be hacked from the outside - into cars, when a car's job is to go "zoom"?

Onstar

[Archfeld]

I really like OnStar, the directions are good, updates are not my issue and to boot I don't even need to know where I am to start with. Needless to say my innate sense of direction is poor. I am not sure what is wrong with me but I have always had a very poor sense of direction. I get involved in something and the next thing I know I am lost, again.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Moheeheeko]

I love how you neglect the "up front" costs of your printed up directions, like the computer, the internet connection, and the printer itself.

In Car GPS is fine,....

[Anonymous Coward]

if you happen to know the exact street address of where you are going. If you are on a trip, in a new city, and only know the name of where you want to go a cell phone with Google/Apple Maps is far superior.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[TangoMargarine]

I do pretty much the same thing, except I write out my directions by hand after consulting Google Maps. Write it in a nice big size I can read at a glance.

If I miss a turn on the way, I can pull over and *then* consult Maps again.

Software boneheads learn something....

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a 2016 brand new premium GMC vehicle with OnStar and the interface is still ancient to me. I thin kthey use the same one for Escalades, Denali Yukons, Chevy Tahoes, Sierra pickups, etc....

1) The data set from most of these apps is not google maps which is one of the best -- and it is not being updated in real-time. So license it and don't reinvent the wheel because some executive has grand plans.

2) I shouldn't have to search under "points of interest" (how ancient that is) for my favorite airport, family park, or local attraction. It should just be search period.You don't want to go under menu submenu to get to airport.

3) I shouldn't have to know the address to enter. There shouldn't be "address" unless I need it.

4) It should consider misspellings like Google maps does. A lot restaurants like to name play to be trendy and unfortunately that sucks.

5) Yelp ratings and all the popular ratings for that restaurant, hotel, etc should pop up as well. (I should have option to checkbox which rating system I want).

6) When I save an address it should be smart enough to know by the address what the fuck it is. I shouldn't have to spend another 5 minutes labeling it in address book unless I absolutely have to.

7) My recent destinations don't have to be the last same 12 home address locations mixed in. I just want the last different locations. Common sense, man.

8) Traffic reporting should be like BMW's with different color road shades for slower, stopped, detour. So much easier to visualize.

9) It would be cool to have a suggestion mode, so if you want to get something to eat, just show me 4-5 star rated places on the map, or if I have a craving for something list it out.

10) local recommended places with stars.

11) tells you if the place is open or closed and if you are going to make it in time before it closes.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[oddware]

So not...it is not.
I assume you are using some form of laser of bubble jet to do that printing, while it is attached to some fancy electrical thinger like a laptop or desktop (What are those now a days right?), running software that acts as a system to operate it....
Does it cost the same to do it in half dimes or shillings?

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[shaitand]

ummm no, then you have to stop and look at a piece of paper instead of listening to a voice telling you where to turn and an occasional quick glance at a screen mounted in front a giant window which also shows you the road.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Anonymous Coward]

So you admit that you were wrong to call paper directions superior because you don't have to take your eyes off the road. That's ok, we forgive you. Everyone makes mistakes. :)

Map

[hhawk]

As other have said it's the map update I rather not spend..

My built-in GPS works far more reliably... As the care ages, of course the UI ages as well...

Also I use phone GPS for real time traffic..

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[shaitand]

In Dallas I found that waze was great for a little while. During the time I was teaching my preferred routes which were much faster than its estimates suddenly lots of people looking at their phones started appearing on those routes and they stopped being much faster which in turn caused waze to start directing me down a long annoying route it thinks is a couple minutes faster but only because it always underestimates the delay of heavy traffic.

It sucks, I have to use waze as a defensive strategy now and there is no fast way to commute anymore, waze makes all the choices equally slow.

more than half of people never used them at all

[hcs_$reboot]

The firm surveyed owners of new vehicles

that's maybe why they don't use the navigation system, they didn't have time, yet, to figure out how that works.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Applehu Akbar]

"Cost of a piece of paper+toner or ink: Less than a nickel."

Cost of the ticket you will get at the accident scene when Officer Friendly sees you were squinting at your treasure map when you ran the light - in many jurisdictions, priceless.

Always blinking

[presidenteloco]

For some reason, my car's GPS display is always just blinking 12:00

Can you help me?

Re:Always blinking

[vandamme]

Just put black tape over it, like you do with the Check Engine light.

Re:Always blinking

[Anonymous Coward]

Reboot windows.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Applehu Akbar]

And furthermore, many of us are Space Nutters too.

Wasn't there in '08...

[wikthemighty]

Glad to hear it's gotten better. Our 2008 Passat Wagon had a fantastic looking and operating system that gave immediate directions, names and distances on the display in front of the wheel, and maps in the center console, but was DVD based - meaning that updates came every few YEARS and COST $200!!! And yeah, unless you sprung for a 6-disc changer, the GPS DVD took up the CD player slot in the dash as well...

Re:Wasn't there in '08...

[thegarbz]

Yeah my Renault 2007 Clio had a CD based one, right until I ripped it out and replaced it with a DAB radio. I didn't mind the navigation system as basic and clunky as that was, but it used up the CD on a radio that had no AUX input so it had to go.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL, he thinks I don't memorize where I'm going before I set out. The paper copy is just for reference. I feel sorry for you mental deficients who can't even memorize simple driving directions. No wonder we're all going to get stuck with self-driving cars that will likely drive like 80 year old grannies and take twice as long to get anywhere, you two-digit IQ people are fucking it all up for the rest of us.

Tesla GPS/Nav is top notch

[rpavlicek]

Center console with google maps integration. Highly visible (contrast), traffic information, scrolling, zooming, panning, searching, point-click-queries. Requires wireless connection (provided at no cost via Tesla--so far). Side note: my Dad was amazed when I voiced in the name of the res

Dash screen is a bird's eye view like traditional GPS devices. Data is stored locally and updated periodically (during typical updates, no cost). No connection required to use it, however you will need to type in addresses manually in that case.

Both work beautifully together (with wireless).

I realize that Tesla vehicles are not mainstream yet (cost) so that may be a non-starter for some. Even so, compared to other luxury cars I've driven (or been a passenger), I have never seen anything close.

For reference: I've owned a Tesla Model S since January 2013. I never had to pay anything for map updates, UI updates or wireless access (used by the vehicle)...yet. I'm not a fanboy (Tesla has some issues that really bother me, especially when it comes to service), but I know a good thing when I see it.

Re:Tesla GPS/Nav is top notch

[WindBourne]

yeah, my wife is sold on Tesla GPS. Prior to her buying it, she tried her iphone from work, her personal android, and even bought a seperate GPS (i forget which one). In the end, she always had me give her directions. Not any more. Now, all she wants is her tesla. And just to go a lousy 5, or even 50 miles, she will use that. it is almost insane.

The cheapest alternative

[reboot246]

Just learn your way around. Seriously, it's not that hard. Have a decent sense of direction and know what highway numbers mean. I've traveled on the job for more than 40 years, going to places I'd never been to before. I never had any problem finding my way, and most of that time there were no consumer GPS receivers.

I have a Garmin nowadays, but I use it mainly for ETA. The roads I already know because I've traveled on them hundreds of times.

Re:The cheapest alternative

[hyades1]

I do quite a bit of travelling down two-lane paved roads in the middle of nowhere. I also have a Garmin, and it's pretty good.

It's brilliant at ETA, I have to admit. What pisses me off, though, is when it decides RR #2 doesn't exist, because it thinks it should be called RR 2 or R Route #2 or something silly like that. It happens to me fairly often.

In-dash GPS is great as a backup

[PeeAitchPee]

I often go up into the mountains where cell phones don't work well or at all but GPS works just fine. Waze is the killer GPS app but it's no good if you don't have a signal.

Re:In-dash GPS is great as a backup

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not like you can't get offline navigation apps in phones.

Re:In-dash GPS is great as a backup

[AK Marc]

I download the map cache, and have all the features of a dedicated GPS unit, plus more. And when I visit a foreign country and get a rental car, my regular GPS comes with me and "just works" as opposed to a built-in GPS that can't be moved, or a detachable GPS that can't work out of its home country. A phone is better than a built-in GPS or aftermarket dedicated GPS.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Mr. Gus]

No, that's when you pull over and look at the Thomas Guide.

that little antenna

[Lead Butthead]

isn't an antenna. It's a marker so drivers know where the vehicle "ends." real handy when trying to park in tight spaces.
GPS antenna are located either outside of the vehicle (integrated with AF/FM/satellite antenna) or some place not obstructed by the vehicle frame (under the dash, on a corner the windshield, etc.)

Re:that little antenna

[whoever57]

Perhaps. My information came from asking a Japanese person while in Tokyo what those devices were for.

Re:that little antenna

[AK Marc]

GPS antennas are either in the satellite antenna, on the rear-view mirror, or front (usually passenger side) corner of the dash, as far out under the windshield as possible. Often a small button, or other cosmetic sign of the exact location.

Re:that little antenna

[AK Marc]

They were either idiots, or lying. Those antennas are solely for parking. At least according to the Japanese owner's manual, and people that actually make and sell cars with them.

Re: that little antenna

[Anonymous Coward]

So you asked some random guy off the street? You might look for a more authoritative source next time - such as the owner's manual.

Re: that little antenna

[unixisc]

Of a car whoever57 does not own

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you accessing Slashdot on right now, fool? Do you have an ethernet cable plugged into your ear or something?

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL only inept drivers like yourself commit massive fuck-ups like that. I memorize my directions and only take the paper copy along just in case. Must be terrible going through life so mentally challenged that you can't memorize simple driving directions and need some electronic crutch to help you.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Moheeheeko]

my PHONE, luddite.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[swalve]

Because you are that clever and important, Waze is copying YOU.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Attila Dimedici]

In other words, you taught the better routes to Waze and now it lets everyone know. I have discovered that in areas where few people drive with Waze it chooses main roads over back roads. It is only after I have driven to a destination over back roads a few times that it starts using those particular back roads.

No duh

[Anonymous Coward]

I work at a Chrysler dealer, and the radios and navigation systems are a constant source of complaints. Unless the vehicle is under warranty the customer usually declines to replace the radio if it goes out, as they tend to cost between $750 and $1200 a pop.

Re:No duh

[Anne Thwacks]

as they tend to cost between $750 and $1200 a pop.

For a unit worth about $250.

FTFY

Re:Too clunky, but legal....

[Kernel Kurtz]

I can use my phone far more efficiently and safely than my cars nav system, which is, absolutely, clunky. But using a handheld device in the car is illegal here. So there is a huge incentive to choose the less safe option to avoid an expensive ticket.

Good intentions and unintended consequences and all that.

Re: split half?

[slashrio]

A split calf!

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[mjm1231]

I've been driving for over 30 years, and I've never used GPS. A quick look over a map beforehand and a sense of direction is really enough. I can recall maybe two or three times when a GPS would have even been at all useful. That includes driving in a foreign country.

Android Auto

[TheLongshot]

This is why I'm glad I have a car with Android Auto in it, so I can hook up my phone to the car and get the information on my screen. Now, if Google will hurry up with the Waze support that they promised earlier this year....

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Anne Thwacks]

That includes driving in a foreign country.

Probably not a European one. Try London - from day to day the one way streets get reversed, random streets are blocked off either for road repairs or permanently, and accidents can block areas of several square miles for hours on end. Printed maps are useless within minutes of being printed.

Tesla works GREAT

[WindBourne]

My wife absolutely LOVES using the GPS in her Tesla. It routes and re-routes the car based on traffic. In addition, it gives it verbally, as well as lays out the map on the main screen, along with the dashboard display.

There is NOTHING else on the market that even comes close to how user-friendly the Tesla GPS is.

Re:Tesla works GREAT

[Guy Smiley]

I would agree. The main reason that Tesla's GPS works well is that they didn't try to invent a new one themselves, but rather use Google Maps for the data and only overlay the charging network information onto that. No need for updates, though one minor issue is that it doesn't work without LTE/3G.

Re:Tesla works GREAT

[WindBourne]

and 3G is available nearly everywhere in lower 48 and Europe.
There are a few blind spots, but in general those are in the mountains.
In addition, I suspect that once spacex gets their constellation going, tesla will flip to using that.

My car did not come without a GPS option...

[Telephone Sanitizer]

Well, to be perfectly honest, I did have the opportunity to get this model car without a GPS, if I were willing to lose a lot of other features with it and special-order it from the manufacturer.

The maker only offered the advanced "Safety and Collision-Avoidance" features as part of the "Technology" package that also included the NAV system, an upgraded audio system and heated seats. The tweeters are nice, but trust me, I really don't care about having a built-in GPS or heated seats. (And satellite radio. A complete waste with all of the tunnels and parking garages and tall buildings that I have to deal with.) Round here, an alarm that sounds when the driver next to you starts swinging into your lane without a signal is priceless.

And on top of that, no dealer in the region stocks that model vehicle without the Technology package, so if I were okay losing every safety feature of the car that made it worth the premium price just to ditch the GPS then I'd have to find a dealer willing to order one for me and wait up to several months for it to ship from the factory.

Between the two, it just seemed better to take the silly NAV that they were throwing in.

I use Waze for navigation. A 3rd party magnetic mount on my dash holds my cell phone at the perfect spot on the dash, above and to the left of the steering wheel where my peripheral vision catches it and I don't have to take my eyes off the road.

The built-in GPS is roughly centered on the dash below the windshield. Very hard to see without turning my head and looking down. And with roads constantly changing around here for construction, it's not really useful at all.

even goolge can be slow it took the 6mo+ for I-355

[Joe_Dragon]

even goolge can be slow it took them 6mo+ for I-355 I-80 to I-55 to show up after it opened.

Thanks for that. Preston @ the Bush was a bitch

[raymorris]

I'm new to Dallas, so thanks for the Waze routes. Preston northbound to the Bush was always 15 minutes to go two or three miles. Now Waze sends me over to Campbell, which saves several minutes.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Anonymous Coward]

Just print your directions out ahead of time and use that. Then you're not squinting at some tiny little screen when you should be paying attention to the road, or having to futz with something mounted in your dash to do the same.

I agree with that in principle because what I do is look at the map and memorize the path to where I'm going.

What the nav system does that is actually useful is call out the approaching turns. In many places the intersecting street signs are either not visible or non-existing, and even if present there's no way to see them in time if you're driving over 25 mph.

Also, on highways its common for a highway to have a second name like "Bubba Burger Highway" and that's what the posted sign says at the intersection, but your map says "Highway 58" and that's what you're looking for, so while driving it's not obvious that you've come to the intersection you need. The GPS doesn't really use either name, it just knows you need to turn there and calls out whatever name it knows.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[ZenShadow]

Wow. Blast from the past. I'd forgotten about those. :)

Pay Pay Pay vs Free!

[Zaphon]

With my in dash GPS system I have to pay to keep the maps updated, I have to pay to get real-time traffic through Sirius (which is literally hours delayed), I have to pay pay pay.. Or I just open my phone and get all that for FREE. Seems like a no-brainer. Though my car's system does have Pandora integration, and I find myself using Pandora exclusively now because of how simple and easy it is to use. So if they could eliminate all the damn costs, and give me the same experience as my phone, I'd be willing to use it.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[Malc]

Cocky! I was going to challenge you to try this in London, but I see somebody already beat me to it.

I cycle in the inner city every day. I'm good with maps, I have a good sense of direction and spacial awareness... more than 30 minutes studying a new route in Google Maps and examining StreetView to identify and memorise my landmarks for turns and I will still get lost or have to stop frequently to check my phone. Major routes on the map turn out to look minor in real life and you blow past them very quickly. You make a turn in the wrong place and "it feels like" it's going the right way but before you know it you're actually going perpendicular to the route you wanted.

London isn't unique by old world city standards, although it is failrly large. N. American driving is such a breeze in comparison.

2 Issues Why In-Dash Nav doesn't work

[Anonymous Coward]

1. You can't program a route while driving (supposedly for safety).
2. You can't talk to it to find the place you're looking for.

I kind of understand #1. But if you're just using you're phone as a replacement, it isn't helping anything. For #2, you need data to get all the latest locations. Some people get Sirius XM or whatever for that, but after the 6 month trial, most don't pay for the subscription.

It's really unfortunate though. I have a 2009 Dodge Ram with the U-Connect system. Having all of your crap built-in without having to screw with your phone is definitely handy. With 16 gigs of disk space, most people who ride with me can find at least one song they like. It's way more convenient than having to fuck with pairing/finding songs on your phone. Nav would be similar if they could overcome #1 and #2.

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[shaitand]

Yup. I love waze for routes I'm less sure about and when I actually need directions but I wish I'd never used it for the drive in to the office ;)

Re:Print it out ahead of time

[91degrees]

To be fair, a computer does have other costs. It's typically a sunk cost for most people.

Although I guess you can say that for a phone as well.

Outside the car is just as important....

[fleabag]

Aside from all the issues posted already, the big issue for me is that the in car GPS is stuck in the car. The sort of times when I really need navigation assistance is when I am working in an unfamiliar location. Moving between client sites for example - I can be in the office, ask someone where the next meeting is, and get it into Waze there and then. One a number of occasions I've said to someone "is this it?" and showed them the screen only for them to point out that I have entered the site on the wrong side of town. If I was doing this in the car (on my own), I'd end up at the wrong place.

At the other end (and I accept that is is probably more of a European problem than a US one), it is pretty common to be parking some distance from where you actually want to be. With the phone, this is no problem, I walk with it, and my robot overlord tells me to "turn left at the end of the road". In car GPS - not so good.

I also end up driving multiple cars - hire cars, my own car, my wife's car - I don't have the time or the enthusiasm to learn how to drive the complex & infuriating in car Nav systems, the phone does it fine.

No surprise here.

[Qbertino]

I have a Tomtom.

The UI/UX is from the stone age. I'm actually glad it doesn't require punch-cards or something.
Turn-by-turn audio is broken and unsuable. The particular model I have (got it as a present) was shipped in an early beta state and has a solid 3 stars on amazon, which basically means it's officially a piece of sh*t.

The only three things these devices have going for them are full screen lane-assist with countryside detail included - a thing I *do* miss with Google Navigate - relatively solid cases and useful attachment systems for the windscreen. The one from Tomtom is actually quite well done. Could be better, but quite OK non-the-less.

My Moto G2 OTOH runs Android Marshmallow and has a a navigation system with Google Maps + Navigate, I can just tell it where I want to go without taking my hands of the wheel and it's navigation is among the very best in first world countries. The display and the variations it offers is top notch aswell. The turn-by-turn audio doesn't lag a bit and announces just at the right time.

Oh, and I can use it with my bike, while walking - I actually use it more often on the bike and when walking - and for public transport, with the navigation variants selectable with one touch. ... And that it has a phone and a camera and all that built in we know already.

Bottom line:
GPS Navis are a niche market or throw-away devices for roughshod use in fringe cases and no where near compareable to modern smartphones with armies of experts toiling away at UX, AI features and performance. I think it's safe to say that they are on their way out. And yes, that includes BMWs clunky and awkward built-in middle-console click-wheel gadget for entering destinations they tried to sell as some luxury-car UX innovation a few years back (no joke).

Torch and pitchfork

[Anonymous Coward]

It's because they lock the *****ing thing out when the vehicle is in motion. No thought whatsoever to "hey, that switch that says there's weight in the front right seat and activates/deactivates the passenger airbag? Maybe we can use that to tell the GPS to LET MY ****ING PASSENGER ENTER DIRECTIONS".

*flips table, leaves*

Car based GPS will never win

[Anonymous Coward]

I have had my car for 10 years. I purchased a used motorcycle that is 9 years old. The state of GPS systems when these vehicles rolled off the assembly line has no chance against my six month old Android phone. What car/motorcycle manufacturers should be doing is creating interfaces to the phone (shared touch screen for GPS and movies for the kids, use car/motorcycle speakers so we can play music stored on the phone). I run a Sena 20s in my motorcycle helmet and have all of the audio capabilities already.

miss the old days

[Anonymous Coward]

When I could rip out the stock head unit and put in what ever head unit I wanted. Now it is so much of a pain to switch head units cause they tie so much into them that is also part of the car.

Especially with Acura

[forrie]

This is true for me, with my Acura. Their navigation system positively sucks; it's more like a clunky video game from the 80's and is utterly useless.

On the flip side...

[Anonymous Coward]

...I bought a Pioneer headunit (AVH series) for my truck so I could connect my iPhone and use Waze on the screen rather than have to keep looking away at my phone [1]. But the problem there is that, pushing the GUI through the lightning cable (the AVH is not Apple CarPlay compatible, and instead uses AppRadioLive) makes the headunit EXTREMELY unresponsive if I try to play any music from the phone. If I use satellite radio I'm okay (that's a different module plugged into the head unit) but if I play a podcast or a song and then get a hands-free text, the head unit will freeze solid for minutes at a time.

[1] I had a bracket to hold my phone plugged into the cigarette lighter, and a USB cable to keep the phone charged while using Waze (it eats up battery like a mofo). I did not want to have the USB cable draped across my dash, which is why I didn't put the phone in a mount on the windshield. Also I didn't want to block my windshield of have my phone in direct sunlight.

Apple CarPlay and Android Auto...

[Last_Available_Usern]

Will give you the best of both worlds.

Use an old smartphone

[sdinfoserv]

I have a 2010 Prius with navigation. Updates are $200 a pop, released once a year or so. I've always thought it was silly to have a table like interface in a car. I never gets updated. Since everyone already has a smart phone or tablet, why not just have an app that links the car and performs all the same options as that silly, buggy touch screen (read about Fords mess). Entertainment, HVAC, all those options could be controlled on the smartphone and just build a mount rather than an obsolete when sold display.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Personal Frustration with Acura

[Anonymous Coward]

In 2014 I bought a "used" 2013 Acura (it had less than 4K miles on it). In the first quarter of 2016 there was a promotion where I could get a 2015 map update for $99 instead of the usual $149, so I decided to do it since my map was a couple years old.

I went to the Acura navigation web site (actually controlled by Here maps) to fill out the form and order my update. The web site required a few numbers (database, software, and device ID) from my car's nav system, obviously to use as a key for their DRM'd maps. When I looked up these numbers in my car's system, the database version was blank (actually a dash/hyphen).

The web site would accept the order without a valid database number, so I had to call Here. They didn't believe I was looking up the number correctly, so they walked me through the process again. I even emailed a photo of the system info screen to them. After several phone calls and hours of back and forth with them, they told me I have to bring my car to an Acura dealer, so they can look up the number for me.

What's the end result? I never did go out of my way to go to an Acura dealer (unlike Honda, there's not that many of them around). I never updated my map, and now I rely on Waze or some other phone app when I need navigation. Here, I wanted to purchase a map update from you but your inept DRM system did allow me to. Sorry you missed out on this sale.

Phone is superior

[Anonymous Coward]

Half the time I look up directions on my smartphone before even leaving the house. Why would I then load them a second time into my car when they are already to go on my phone?

And as stated before, many times Waze and Google Maps are superior, updated more frequently and have traffic data that a built in system won't have.

I concur

[MikeDataLink]

I have the pile of feces known as Toyota Entune in my new Tacoma. I rarely use it. I dream of the day Toyota supports Carplay or Android auto.

What else I close out of frustration: J.D. Power

[neminem]

I take surveys for pay, for fun mostly, and for a bit of extra cash. Sometimes I get interesting surveys about new products, mostly it's boring demographics and junk. I've done enough surveys now to immediately recognize that certain sites will waste my time with lengthy irritating questions about crap I don't care about, and/or just throw me out without pay after way more time than would be reasonable. J.D. Power is one of those. When I see a survey is hosted by J.D. Power, I just close it immediately.

Bundling

[Mickw]

From what I've seen if you want any tech you MUST get the manufacturer provided Nav which is usually sub par. That of course artificially inflates the package price but unless you want to give up the other tech features, sometimes as mundane as bluetooth or even aux in, you must pay and take it as part of the package. I like the idea of CarPlay or AndroidAuto that allows the phone to provide the interface. That way the tech can evolve along with your phone, however the car makers seem to always bundle that with their overpriced, underperforming Nav system just to keep their vig.

Cost of map updates vs new device.

[Anonymous Coward]

Volkswagen in Australia is charging $550-$650 for the latest V9 Australian map, it's produced by Sensis with data dated 2/7/2015 from their Q1 2015 database! Crazy! Half a year or more out of date for the price of a new mid tier smartphone. It's totally disconnected from reality.

Table of contents from the V9 map.

Volume: CD_8333
Date: 2.7.2015
db: AUNZ(2015Q1)
Area: Australia + New Zealand
Subarea: ALL
Supplier: Sensis
Version: 505.99.551.84
Customer Version: V9
Customer: 1627386751
Customer Info: VW
Features: ZIP3kb - feaV10(VW)
TPD: 2015060015
SVD: EDB_20150623
TMC: no
Phoneme: Starec
DBAL: VW-V6.47_V7.38_V8.704_V9.37_V10.14

I had one in a caddy

[ebvwfbw]

It wasn't as good. One time it routed me where I'd have to drive across a guy's lawn to get to the other road. It didn't want to let anyone work with it while the car was in motion so my wife couldn't set the next stop while I was driving. Just a lot of really annoying things, and this was with the latest update. I don't own that car anymore, it was totaled.

Use waze, it's WAY better. Did I mention it's WAY better? Well it's WAAAAY better!

Android in the car

[c_g_hills]

I swapped the old head unit for an android one and use Here Maps. The downside is the receiver does not receive ota traffic updates using TMC or TPEG like more expensive units.