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It's Harder To Get an Uber or Lyft If You're Black, Study Says (time.com)
Black riders have to wait "significantly longer" for their Uber cabs and experience "double" the cancellation rates of white passengers, according to a new study published by the National Bureau of Economic Research. The study, which also observed a similar pattern among Lyft drivers, claims it has found "significant evidence of racial discrimination" in ride-hailing services based on a pair of experiments in Seattle and Boston. From a report on Time: Researchers pulled data from more than 1,400 field tests conducted using mostly Uber and Lyft, but also traditional taxi services. The findings in Boston and Seattle showed evidence of discrimination that manifested in either longer waits or a higher likelihood for cancellation. In Seattle, African-American UberX users on average waited 5 minutes and 15 seconds for pick-ups -- roughly 30% longer than white riders, who waited 4 minutes on average. Lyft users did not experience a significant difference during the experiment. When the research assistants switched between using white-sounding and African-American-sounding names, they did not find a significant increase in their wait times. But the overall rates at which drivers canceled the ride after it was assigned to them was more than one in 10 for riders with black-sounding names, roughly double than for riders with white-sounding names.
What are these African-American sounding names? Are you saying that you can tell someone's race by their name? But if races are social constructs and not real, what are they really measuring?
The bit that they are failing to mention is how many of these drivers are minorities themselves. When I was in Seattle for PAX we had one white driver, every other one was black or Arab.
maybe if uber let it's drivers C & C they would pickup / go to more rough areas
Or at least pass the spliff, you cheapskate!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
This is sad, but not really surprising, and is just one more example of why Uber/Lyft are going to be a disaster for the country once they more completely displace the regulated taxi industry.
I'd really be interested, are there now names for blacks and names for whites? I thought we're finally over that shit.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
African Americans do in fact, like to make up names/spellings.
No I don't know why.
IIRC there were something like 300 unique spellings of unique used as a name. How many do you think aren't black?
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Irrelevant. Being a member of a minority does not mean you aren't capable of being a racist asshole.
It's not that the riders were black, but rather that the names chosen "sounded black". This is significant as it introduces culture as a possible data point which wasn't controlled for.
Were I a freelance driver, I'm not sure how much I'd want to deal with a "La-DASH-ya" either.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
...do their apps specify race when you are reserving a ride?
Or maybe it's because the pick up point is in a high crime area.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
I've known Nigerians with Nigerian-sounding names who became US citizens and drove taxis. Only God knows what language they scream in when Brazil is beating Nigeria in the soccer playoffs.
I don't get how at this point there's any doubt at all.
The language of "ride sharing" implies that the driver is already heading in that direction for their own unrelated business, and is merely attempting to make their costs back by taking someone else along as a paid passenger.
Basically no short-haul drivers that do this. I expect that there are probably at least a few road-trip drivers that would, but that's the exception, not the norm.
A friend of mine drove for Uber for awhile and now drives for Lyft. He did very poorly driving for Uber. He does a little better driving for Lyft, but certainly not well enough to make a living at it.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
...people are cunts. Film at 11.
Irrelevant. Being a member of a minority does not mean you aren't capable of being a racist asshole.
Didn't you get the memo? A member of an oppressed minority cannot be racist.
"naberhood"? Really? And half a dozen punctuation/capitalization errors, too.
Quick! Someone do a TED talk!
Seastead this.
I'd rather wait for a bus than use either of these services. At least the driver lets me drink my beer in peace.
"Elon" (as in Elon Musk).
He's an African-American from South Africa.
Yeah, but it was a racist who sent out that memo so it doesn't count.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Racist != prejudiced or bigoted.
What's that about statistics and lies?
Most blacks tend to live in black neighborhoods, many of which are referred to as 'hoods' and not in a positive way. There are probably many less drivers in those areas or that wants to go there, is why there is a delay.
Most drivers don't want to go 15 miles out of their way to a known bad neighborhood at extra expense and risk to pick up someone. Its not racism but reality.
I am white but live in a 'hood' so I do know a little bit about this. No pizza delivery is available to me from any of the major pizza companies either.
Uber drivers dont get my real name, they get my handle. There is no reason for them to know my true full name. UBER, my WISP and CC company has the relevant info if a legal issue arises.
Good-bye
It's Harder to get an Uber or Lyft If You Have a Stupid Sounding Name, Study Says
I delivered pizzas as a part-time job when I was in high school. One particular area had a high black population. All the drivers hated delivering there and would try to skip out on the delivery (go to bathroom, take a break, etc), not because the customers were black, but because they didn't tip well. The same thing happened in another area which was predominantly white, but low income (also bad tippers).
Technically this still counts as a prejudice (pre-judging the customer as a bad tipper based solely on where they live). But it's one which is statistically correct most of the time rather than some of the time.
There are first names and family names that are disproportionately common among African-Americans.
http://names.mongabay.com/data... shows over 50% of those with a surname of Jackson self-identify as "Black" (data is from the 2000 US census). Over 40% of Americans with the surname Williams, Harris, Robinson, and Coleman self-identify as "Black."
Washington is the "big winner" with over 80% of Americans with that last name self-identifying as "Black."
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/top... shows some of the "whitest" and "blackest" names.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Wait a second. If I am a private driver, in my private vehicle, and I am not providing a service but just ride sharing, then any and all hailers are hitchhikers. Such as they are hitchhikers, it is my personal discretion who I allow into my vehicle and who do I not.
Now on the other hand, if I was working for a transportation service, hauling people around is my job, and I wouldn't care less who is in the car as long as they are paying.
I have so far taken in only one hitchhiker in my car, I was stopped in front of a one lane 2 way tunnel waiting for my direction to be allowed in, and there was a smelly woman in dirty muddy rags by the side of the road. There were some vandals or whatcha-call-em, perhaps hooligans, in the two cars behind me, who got out of their cars and started to harass the woman, so I let her in as she was in immediate distress. Other than that, I see no reason to haul around hitchhikers.
maybe if uber let it's drivers C & C they would pickup / go to more rough areas
I'm pretty sure it's illegal to Command & Conquer in the greater Seattle area (not sure about Boston).
Racist != prejudiced or bigoted.
Can you clarify what it does mean then?
Maybe they're reacting from experience and don't want to visit certain neighborhoods where the crime rate is higher. It may be a self-preservation thing. Not everyone that is careful about being robbed is a racist.
Most blacks tend to live in black neighborhoods
Actually, they don't. Most blacks live in neighborhoods with sizable populations of white, Hispanic, etc. At the last census, only 28% of blacks lived in neighborhoods that were at least 85% black.
They don't. But that doesn't stop the perception that they do, which perpetuates the myth (and turns into a correlation).
The statistics are clear, a never-accused white is more likely to commit a crime than a never-accused Black. But Blacks are much more likely to be falsely accused, and end up in jail (or dead, like Trevon Martin) for some false accusation by someone. And once they've been through the prison system, they have recidivism similar to everyone else, and end up re-offenders.
If we stopped throwing innocent Blacks in jail, they'd offend less than whites. If we stopped the prisons from being training/breeding grounds for hardened criminals, Blacks would offend less than whites. Blacks in the US are less violent and criminal than whites (when you correct for recidivism).
It's mainly the perception and the perpetuation of the perception that exists.
But my question is, who cares if they are discriminated against for a cab? Trump discriminates openly against Blacks looking for homes, and he's praised for it. Blacks are screened out for jobs for "ethnic" names, or other demographic information that identifies them as minority. So if you can't get a job, and can't get a place to live, why would you care about a cab? Oh, wait. "Uber" gets the front page, even if irrelevant.
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"When the research assistants switched between using white-sounding and African-American-sounding names"
African-America "sounding names" well that's scientific.
Oh wait no that's racist.
Would you pick up someone named Judas Iscariot? Adolf Hitler? Josef Stalin?
Why would someone name their child a name that makes it harder for them in life?
Its very relevant, as the side effect of this article will be "those damn white people" When racism is brought up the first thought in the public's mind at large is "white people being assholes"
Irrelevant. Being a member of a minority does not mean you aren't capable of being a racist asshole.
Indeed. Surprisingly, it's even common that some members of minority groups are racist assholes against their own group. The stereotypical example is black male police officers who racially profile and even brutalize black men.
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Of course that's nonsense.
Nobody named their kids 'Trevon' in 1960. It's some sort of new insanity.
Granting it is current illiteracy that leads to 'Latrina'. It must be 'acting white' to have any french vocabulary.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Yes. Yes, I have ("do" - they're still alive.). And yes, they ARE actually African. For the record, some of them aren't "black". Being born in an African country is what makes you African. Being born in Africa and emigrating to the USA is what makes you an African-American. Your name and skin color have nothing to do with it.
Kane lives in death!
I think he means conceal and carry, and by that I think he means have a gun within reach to shoot people who try to mug them.
Most drivers don't want to go 15 miles out of their way
What do you mean, "Out of their way"? They're ride sharing! Someone has to be going that way.
Or did you mean the Uber and Lyft cab company drivers don't want to go pick up a ride in exchange for money?
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Having also delivered pizza. The _worst_ tippers are in the rich neighborhoods and the ghetto. People that also _work_ for a living are likely to tip decently.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
'People of color' are shot above their % of the population, they are also shot below their % of violent criminal population.
Now is where you claim the % of violent criminal population is a racist fact.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Are you still flogging that deceased ungulate? No one thinks Uber or Lyft are "ride sharing". Nor are they a taxi company, nor a limo service. They're a hired car company of a new kind.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Its not racist at all. With birth records, you can map a person's name as well as their race, and all kinds of random other data.
If Eliyah are almost entirely named to black babies, it's a 'black' name statistically.
If Cody's are almost entirely named to white babies, it's a 'white' name statistically.
Once you've got a baseline of extreme limits of 'white', 'black', 'hyspanic', 'asian', etc.. names, you can perform blind tests on how people react to different names. There's nothing racist about it. Its pretty simple to quantify.
The hard names are those used by all cultures, which is why researchers don't use those names when performing these types of tests.
Bye!
...had something to do with it.
Nobody named their kids 'Trevon' in 1960. It's some sort of new insanity.
Black Americans have adopted names for themselves that seemed "strange" to other Americans since they were forced to come here and give up their actual names to begin with.
Consider also that there is much more crossover between Black Americans and Carribean, Latin American and Native Americans than among whites and any of these groups, and additionally that their choices in names reflect the cultural and phonetic influences from Spanish and French languages.
Plus the whole, "why would I give my kid the same name as 50,000 assholes and their asshole grandfathers?" factor.
Yeah ? You want unlimited immigration ?
Because if you don't, and I'd be pretty shocked if you really believed that in real life, then at some point you have to stop someone from coming.
You can't have it both ways, either you're pro unlimited immigration, or you're in the same boat as the brexiters.
White South Africans don't consider themselves African. So your assertion is wrong. He's Dutch-American (or something like that). As most white people who move out of Africa claim the heritage of their ancestors, not location of birth as their ethnicity.
Learn to love Alaska
They will figure it out. Parents in the '70s learned not to name their kids "Dick Butkiss" because of all the teasing the kids would get at school. Parents in this millennium will figure out not to name their kids something that would prevent Uber from picking them up.
Spoken like a True Democrat that ignores facts and statistic's. Like how African american teens are 10 times more likely to commit a homicide then whites and Hispanic's COMBINED. African american's in general are 8 times more likely commit a Homicide then Whites and Hispanic's COMBINED. Facts and stats show there is a very violent sub culture in african American community. You claim its a perception but the facts show the truth, 647 people been killed in chicago this year( as of right now), Outta all those people only 6 were at the hands of a cop. Outta all those 647 people 481 were African American's killed. Take 1 guess at only time they ever protested? The site doesn't break down racial or ethnicity of 6 people killed by police but least 475 weren't killed by police but that was only time they ever protest is when its a person wear a badge.
Maybe true, maybe an excuse. All you are doing is examining why they are acting like dumbasses, not disputing their dumbassness.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
"...they did not find a significant increase in their wait times. But the overall rates at which drivers canceled the ride after it was assigned to them was .. roughly double than for riders with white-sounding names."
Rather than just conveniently assume "racism" they should first dig a little deeper and, say, check with the drivers themselves for the existence of other correlations.
No, it's an unknowable fact. We can only know the % of violent crimes they are charged / convicted with.
Assuming you aren't trolling;
If 'they' weren't disproportionately from the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum, 'they' wouldn't commit a disproportionate number of crimes.
Crime correlates pretty well with poverty and wealth disparity. Even if you argue that the criminal behaviour is part of what keeps them in poverty, how do you break the cycle? It's certainly a reasonable argument to insist that people are responsible for their own actions, but that's kind of simplistic - not everyone has equal access to all possible choices and of the options that are available, people from different backgrounds are going to experience different 'costs'.
Don't get me wrong, I think that excusing criminal behaviour by blaming 'society' or conditions does a great disservice to the majority of people who experience those same conditions and who choose, repeatedly, to live useful, law-abiding lives. I also think its grossly irresponsible to see people who have had greater difficulties than most and who have fewer resources and do nothing except point the finger. Some combination of personal _and_ social responsibility is needed - neither, alone, is as likely to succeed.
that LaTrina has the same right to a job she's qualified for as Richard? You're basically saying racism's OK as long as it's not too bleeding obvious. Speaking of which, of course nobody f'n had to test LaTrina vs Harley. They never got that far because the most ridiculous test cases blew up first. You would think folks would at least _try_ to hide their racism. Not so much.
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And? I don't think anyone contests that. But the researcher haven't tried to see if the wait times would go up if they used identifying markers for other groups. Vegetarians? Republicans? Or, more narrowly, Trump supporters? Using "black" sounding names is a marker which makes it more likely that a person belongs to a certain group. It doesn't prove that this group experiences more hostility than individuals from other groups which are generally judged by their group membership. A study from a few years ago showed that Prius drivers were the most hostile drivers on the road. So group-affiliation can be an indication of anti-social behavior just as much it can make a person be more likely to be on the receiving end of anti-social behavior. They should do a study of what the delay would be if the desired destination is a Trump rally vs a sporting event (to eliminate congestion as a baseline for bias against driving to a location).
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
you're legally required to validate each candidate on their merits. If you've done what you just suggested then you haven't followed the law. Casual and institutional racism are still racism.
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as long as La-dash-ya is well behaved and gives you no cause for concern you are legally required to accept her business when you run a public business. The same protections extend to you and everyone else and for reasons to innumerable to list.
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Uber doesn't allow tips. Mind you, the drivers are all absolutely still private contractors thank you very much.
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they start with a hypothesis, test it, and if they get positive results refine. John Oliver just did a very amusing piece on the whole process and how silly it is when lay people jump into a discussion like this one we're having without reading study's statistics and just reading the headline instead.
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My word, he's not "employable", either. Sir Richard employs others, not vice-versa. The very idea.
Also, sir Richard is on the Riviera at this time, so would you kindly cease pestering the house staff. Go on, now.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Hey, you should read some of that literature. At its simplest, it says that racism can happen between any races, but it needs context. Just google "reverse racism" and read a little.
Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics. Ignoring facts like I'm certain if you look at the poverty level where the people in Chicago were killed it's probably fairly high. Also the part where the population is most likely >80% African American. And the part where violence has been stirred.. and how many of the killed were part of gang or other subsets where there is a tendency to step outside the realm of lawsuits?
I've served in units which had cops as the majority of their infantry reserves.
I don't need to see how dark the worldview of cops is, or why they see it that way.
or why you can't get a taxi if you're not white in many cities, even if you have a doctorate
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
That isn't what is typically done in these studies. Rather than using a valid method (statistical correlates of names with race) they instead use forced choice ratios.
They ask a sample of 100 people is __name__ black or white?
Then based on the forced choice percentages they assign a 'race' to the name.
They tend to also use extremely common 'white' names and extremely uncommon 'black' names (The studies that have used common black names such as Ebony; show that the common black name ends up with better response rates than the less common white names).
Based on the summery it sounds like:
1) The overall statistics for Uber implied that Black people on average got worse service.
2) Some scientists ran a proper study with controls and found that no discrimination was happening.
3) So we are left with the glaringly obvious conclusion that Uber drivers probably do not wait around in crime filled neighborhoods, and are more likely to refuse to service crime filled neighborhoods.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
'Black sounding names'? As for the Person of Color v. White people wait and cancellation time - was any consideration made for the neighborhoods and the times of day the rides were requested?
Except that's not how this study worked. It controlled for that by using ride requests with black-sounding names vs. white-sounding names.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
When I was in college I volunteered in a community service group and became one of the managers. I noticed that one of the other managers complained a lot about his volunteers -- they had a bad attitude, they weren't reliable, etc. Which was weird because I'd worked with the same people and found them to be perfectly reliable and enthusiastic. So I began to watch this guy, and the problem became obvious: he was a condescending jerk who pissed his volunteers off, and when they wouldn't work with him anymore he'd badmouth them. Then the other managers would get a negative attitude towards that volunteer and he'd end up quitting.
Now I don't want to overstate the case here, but there is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy. If drivers try to avoid low-income neighborhoods, then people in that neighborhood will experience, on average, bad service from your pizzeria. Even when a delivery is on time, expecting it to be late poisons the experience. It takes a lot of good customer service to undo even a single instance of bad service, much less a pattern of it.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
But Blacks are much more likely to be falsely accused, and end up in jail (or dead, like Trevon Martin)
All of the physical evidence indicates that Trayvon Martin (yes, you misspelled his name) was killed while committing felony assault. Nobody is going to take your comments seriously when you managed to fuck up two things in one sentence.
That's so 1990s. The modern SJW definition is "prejudice plus power" which is how they exclude minorities from being racist even when they are blatantly racist by the older definition. See, a black Uber driver may be very very prejudiced.. but he has no power, due to the assumption of a white supremacist society propped up by structural racism etc... so he's not racist.
Just like cops shooting people of color at 2-10 times the rate of whites is a coincidence.
That's actually false. There is a greater probability you get shoot by the police when they stop you if you are white than if you are black. Blame the media that only nitpicks the cases where black people are shoot by the police for putting that idea on people's heads.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?_r=2
Of course, police, prosecutor and jury bias pushes those statistics upwards. I'm not claiming there isn't an element of reality in the stereotypes, but the stereotypes also help to generate the reality.
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Why 85%? 75% is still a black neighborhood isn't it?
All of the physical evidence indicates that Trayvon Martin (yes, you misspelled his name) was killed while committing felony assault.
All the physical evidence indicates he was stalked by an armed aggressor down a blind alley, and when he defended himself from that aggressor, the aggressor killed him.
Learn to love Alaska
Yeah... recidivism rate is part of crime rate by definition (you know what recidivism means right.. it's relapse into crime, i.e. committing another crime). You can't correct for crime rate when looking at the crime rate. It's like saying "Oh turns out 19 year old men commit crimes at the same rate as nuns once you correct for their crime rate disparities." It's nonsense.
Household Poverty And Nonfatal Violent Victimization, 2008–2012
Second link from the google search for "correlation race poverty crime".
Or, from wikipedia entry Race and crime in the United States.
I've tried variations on "correlation race poverty crime" with "eight" "8 times" etc. to see if I could find where you were sourcing your claim, but am drawing a blank. Rather than continue to make an ass of myself, perhaps you'd be so kind as to provide a link or citation?
Why are you commenting anonymously? You're making good points.
even 50% in a country with 10% black population seems pretty black to me.
That's easy to test, repeat the experiment with 2 variables: black vs white, "bad" source/destination vs "good" source/destination.
It would be nonsense if the rate of incarceration were consistent. But there are great differences in how the first "minor" crimes are treated. A Black child caught shoplifting is more likely to be formally arrested than a white. While the white child will be given a warning by the shipowner or police and "released" to his parents.
Have you not seen all the rape memes? White athletes raping and getting no or minimal jail time, while "innocent" Black men getting long sentences?
Learn to love Alaska
Could you point to some data backing that? It's the first time I heard about that.
Heard this on the radio today.
Great to know good old slashdot is now in lock-step with the mainstream media programming and calling it 'tech'.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Such as "Dwyane" instead of "Dwayne", and "Antawn" instead of "Antoine". Strangely they aren't pronounced the way they are spelled. Maybe not so strange - probably indicates the literacy level of their parents.
Uber and Lyft emphasized that they do not tolerate discrimination and their belief that ride-sharing apps make transportation more equitable and available than taxis.
That was borne out when researchers had students hail cabs in downtown Seattle. The first available taxi stopped 60% of the time for a white student but less than 20% of the time for black students. The white students never had more than four taxis pass them before one stopped. African-American students saw six or seven cabs pass them in 20% of cases.
citation
'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
That's not possible to do though. You can't correct crime stats by correcting for crime stats. Maybe there are other factors that add to the recidivism rate for blacks that you can adjust for, but you can't adjust for the rate itself. That just doesn't make sense statistically. It's like having an algebra equation and doing a circular substitution, like "solve x^2 = 4, substitute x^2 for 4, x^2 = x^2, infinite solutions I guess!!!"
As for the memes you're talking about, wouldn't lighter sentences (but convictions nonetheless) lead to a higher recidivism rate for whites? "Hey I can get away with rape, I'll just do it again." Doesn't match reality.
Naturally, being half Asian, I believe (know) that half Asians are superior... that's not racism. It's factism...
Seriously, though, how much of the delay data is based purely on location, which correlates to wealth, which correlates to race? Or, more cheekily, how much of this is just placism?
Are we just seeing "market effects" pushing drivers to areas where people are more likely able to afford to blow $25 on a cross town ride? Are those populations predominantly white?
That's not possible to do though.
Sure it is. What's the crime rate of whites with no criminal record? Near zero. What's the crime rate of Blacks with no criminal record? Even lower than that.
As for the memes you're talking about, wouldn't lighter sentences (but convictions nonetheless) lead to a higher recidivism rate for whites? "Hey I can get away with rape, I'll just do it again." Doesn't match reality.
You've changed the subject. The American justice system is broken. You can't use that as proof that race isn't a factor, when that was one of the reasons race was a factor.
Learn to love Alaska
First, I resemble that comment!!
Second. I'll admit I'm am racist, and so are most people we know. A lot of us feel prejudice and judge people by their appearance, and even within a race. We are more likely to hold the door open for the prettier blonde, criticize the fat person ordering more than they require, and so on. The reason we judge people is because it was incredibly important for our survival pre-civilization. Faces are incredibly expressive, and sizing one another up tells you a great deal about the possible outcomes of a given encounter. The blonde excites you. Dwayne "the Rock" Johnson would scare the piss out of most people if his face was angry. We needed that information to survive.
The reason Uber drivers do not pick up black people as willingly as whites is because history has taught them to be racist. But it's not their fault. They are wired that way, they follow their prejudices. Their prejudice tells them "a black person is more likely to commit a crime, and I may be the victim of that crime". And statistically, that prejudice is right. Black men are more likely to get arrested, and convicted of violent crime. The problem is that the state of racism is a twisted sort of self-fulfilling prophesy. Statistically, that Uber guy you picked up later than his white counterpart would be slightly later to a job interview, get the job less often, earn less as a result, and render him more desperate to commit a crime in the first place. Thats the problem.
The disadvantage non-whites experience is due to our prejudices, is what it is due to their circumstances. Now, I'm not excusing any crime anyone commits ever, I'm just point out the cycle of self-perpetuating racism that exists. If you want to solve the problem, first understand the data. Our prejudices make their lives harder, and when they react badly to that hard life, we stand back and think "See? I was right all along. Next time I encounter one, ill be weary". It's so sad.
I think that #HillaryForPrision said something similar. #MAGA
Kinda.
Racism is a form of collectivism, where you get all persons of a certain racial group and create this "perceived average strawman", and then everyone from the same group for you is the same person, with his personal merits and tastes and behavior not mattering the slightest.
It can kinda work as a good base if the "perceived" is by your personal experience with people that live next to you rather what is told to you, and you use it just as a "ballpark" to measure random strangers.
But riding it as an absolute truth? that is maddeningly stupid.
Also there is no such thing as "positive racism". If you still separe people by their racial groups but create positive strawmans like "everyone that is black is oppressed", it's still very, very bad.
Sure it is. What's the crime rate of whites with no criminal record? Near zero. What's the crime rate of Blacks with no criminal record? Even lower than that.
Well maybe this is just a semantic difference or I misunderstood you.. you're not correcting for recidivism, you're excluding it. Anyway it would be interesting to see your numbers and how they hold up under different types of crime. Based on an article I just glanced over, recidivism rates are much lower for violent crimes than nonviolent crimes. So then it becomes a question of what type of crime you're interested in... rape and murder are much more serious and pertinent to a discussion of crime rates than spray painting... I mean rape and murder are the crimes people are most concerned about.
You've changed the subject. The American justice system is broken. You can't use that as proof that race isn't a factor, when that was one of the reasons race was a factor
If you recall, you brought up the memes of differing rape sentences, I was simply responding to that. If you're now assuming that the justice system is broken, then your whole argument falls apart. You can't adjust for nor exclude recidivism, because recidivism is meaningless under a broken system. The "true" recidivism rates are unknown because we are not cognizant of all criminal behavior. We can't measure relapses if we didn't catch the original act for instance. The documented recidivism rates can be assumed to be representative of the true rates if you believe the justice system works basically equally and effectively. If you believe it's broken, then the documented recidivism rate has no bearing to the true recidivism rate.
White South Africans don't consider themselves African.
They have absolutely consider themselves Africans. Heck, they call their language "Afrikaans" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans
Really, your claim is literally cretinous.
Catalin Braescu
Ofaly.com
Yup. It might be that Uber drivers avoid certain neighborhoods. Or that people with "African-American sounding names" have a different time schedule which triggers longer waits. Or that ... But no, let's cry racism before knowing anything. Because that worked so well for the boy that cried wolf, didn't it?
Not sure about racism (though, anecdotally, the people I've met in the UK who are most opposed to immigration are first-generation immigrants), but there have been a couple of studies looking at perceptions of CVs for gender bias that have found that the implicit bias by women against women is stronger than the implicit bias by men against women. Somewhat ironically, this means that if you want to hire more women, you need to have fewer women on your hiring panel and in HR.
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African Americans do in fact, like to make up names/spellings.
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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
This is the biggest bummer of Uber. They have sucked all the air out of the room for actual ride-sharing. I would share rides on short trips for small amounts of money if such a service were convenient.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
"It's Harder To Get an Uber or Lyft If You Have a Black-sounding Name , Study Says." There are many blacks that have 'white-sounding' names like, say, Danny Glover or James (Earl) Jones or Sam(uel) Jackson - all of which are famous black actors - who would fall in the well-served 'white-sounding name' category of this study.
"Or did you mean the Uber and Lyft cab company drivers don't want to go anywhere in the city at anytime of the day or night to pick up a ride in exchange for money?"
Perceived personal safety is a consideration for most drivers...
Maybe they're reacting from experience and don't want to visit certain neighborhoods
This is actually insightful, but not in the way the author and mods probably think.
The thing is, the people of color I've seen comment about Uber almost all love the heck of out it. Sure, they get double the turndowns a white rider might get, but they can actually eventually get a ride with Uber. Taxis flat out refuse to go into their neighborhood. Plus, an Uber driver that refuses a rider in a way that rider finds unfair is pretty much guaranteed to get a bad review, dropping their driver rating. That's really important to drivers, so there's incentive to not be a douchebag that taxi drivers don't have.
Technically this still counts as a prejudice (pre-judging the customer as a bad tipper based solely on where they live). But it's one which is statistically correct most of the time rather than some of the time.
You sure about that? It would be interesting to have data from your own deliveries to back it up.
I know I've seen general studies about tipping behavior in restaurants. Those show black people tipping wee bit less on average, but also reporting receiving worse service. Given that the service happens before the tipping, and its *supposed* to be a reward for good service ...
There's a difference between defending himself and pounding the other guy's head into the pavement.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Of course you can. Whatever makes you think otherwise?
Zimmerman had wounds on his nose and the back of his head, meanwhile martin had no wounds other than the bullet hole. Jabba the Hut even testified that Martin wanted to "go after that cracka", even after he had an easy chance to leave without having any confrontation. But instead he turns back, follows Zimmerman and confronts him, and then assaults him.
"John", "George" are very common Nigerian names.
Not among the Nigerians I've known.
English is the native tongue of Nigerians.
English is the official language of the former British colony. There are 521 languages spoken in Nigeria.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Nigeria
I posted this 'discovery' weeks ago, and now it seems to have an enhanced validity: I learned that Uber drivers actually RATE THEIR PASSENGERS!! and communicate that rating to their network... I thought this practice could be an instrument for discrimination: a driver getting a call from a user of the service can first view the ratings of that passenger's earlier history ... and low ratings based on color or neighborhoods could affect how the driver responds to the call.... independent of the caller's name.
This practice is outrageous!
"There are 11 kinds of people: those who know binary, those who don't, and those who could not care less!"
Who cares about skin color? It is an irrational data point
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Violent crimes are not like drug sales.
If anything black violent crime is _undercounted_ because the victims don't report. We all know most crime is within a race.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Racist != prejudiced or bigoted.
Can you clarify what it does mean then?
Probably not. Definitions of various -isms change with the context and usage even working in legal or academic settings where they are very well defined, or perhaps because they are very well defined and not uniform across the board. Add in individual speakers expecting common usage and I bet if you put twenty of them down to write down a definition they could not come up with one that they all would agree with even if they were on the same side of an argument to begin with. Deal with legal issues and it will probably at least differ between the individual states in subtle but meaningful ways. Again, the usage in fields like sociology tend to define them in ways that pertain to the field it is being discussed in. In the sociological example, racism usually does include a requirement for one side holding power over the other. Probably because the effect of a faction with power over another will be very different than that of disenfranchised group performing the same actions on the group in power with relation to society. What it boils down to is that unless the context is narrowly defined, everybody is going to think they know what it means, but there will be no real concensus on a definition, and any attempt to come up with one will probably take longer and be less fruitful than the conversation without one.
That's so 1990s. The modern SJW definition is "prejudice plus power" which is how they exclude minorities from being racist even when they are blatantly racist by the older definition. See, a black Uber driver may be very very prejudiced.. but he has no power, due to the assumption of a white supremacist society propped up by structural racism etc... so he's not racist.
Probably because that is pretty much the definition in the field of sociology and probably other social issues academia.
Are you still flogging that deceased ungulate? No one thinks Uber or Lyft are "ride sharing". Nor are they a taxi company, nor a limo service. They're a hired car company of a new kind.
Yes, because you contact them with an app on your smartphone that makes it absolutely and completely and legally different from ringing up a cab on a boring old land line. It is so radically and disruptively different that Uber are automatically excluded from adherence to outmoded so-called "laws" of course.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
The modern SJW definition is "prejudice plus power" which is how they exclude minorities from being racist even when they are blatantly racist by the older definition.
I see a lot of people add the notion of "plus power" into that but they seem to always factor in the power as they want. For example no Uber driver has much power, so if power is a needed element then all Uber drivers are not racist. This is the crux of why I always find the term "white privilege" so silly, because although a lot of rich people are white most white people aren't rich. The notion that somehow Obama's daughters have less privilege than the average white guy on Slashdot is patently absurd. Certainly there are a great many white people who are dirt poor who would disagree with the notion that they enjoy special pricilege, and they have the poor economic stats to back that up. Then I had someone tell me that it's because there are more white people and so being surrounded by people who are like you is the privilege. By that logic now Southern California hispanics get "hispanic privilege" since they are the most numerous. The whole thing seems silly. I will say that my observation is that it's a shell game to keep the white and Asian male down while trying to explain away the obviousness unfairness of such policies. It's a shell game, where the explanation of why discriminatory policies are in place keeps changing.
At the last census, only 28% of blacks lived in neighborhoods that were at least 85% black.
You know, when I see oddball cutoffs like the 85% here, the question that immediately springs to mind is how extensive the clustering is immediately below the cutoff that would tend to disprove the point trying to be made via the quoted statistic. Do you happen to have the raw data handy? Thanks.
The Uber driver has the power to effect his prejudice by choosing not to pick up people he finds objectional. Power+prejudice=racism.
White privilege is nothing magical. It just means the extra breaks you get for being white that other people don't get. It's a stupid name for a concept that absolutely happens all the time. Uber drivers are less likely to pick up blacks. Cops are more likely to pull over people of color. People with "black sounding" names get fewer callbacks for various applications. And on and on and on. Nobody asks for it, people may not even do it consciously, and each event doesn't even have to be particularly measurable. Even if the effect amounts to just 1% less opportunity a week, it compounds over a lifetime. When some members of a group have a little extra drag on their ability to live their life, the effect is that the others have privilege.
Just because something isn't a profanity-laden, blackfaced crossburning doesn't mean it isn't racist, or that it shouldn't be worked on.
And your comment about Obama's kids? That's true only because people know who they are. If they were wandering through their neighborhood in Chicago with their friends, you can bet they would be judged by the color of their skin rather than what their daddy's job is. That's kind of the point.
White South Africans don't consider themselves African.
They have absolutely consider themselves Africans. Heck, they call their language "Afrikaans" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Really, your claim is literally cretinous.
I think the point is that they don't consider themselves "African" in the sense of "African-American". Whilst it may be technically accurate to call Elon Musk "African-American" 99% of normal people would assume this meant he was black, as "African-American" is synonymous with black. In America.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
They are neither a cab company nor a carpool, nor a limo, nor a private chauffeur, nor a bus. Each is its own kind of hired car. Laws specific to taxis shouldn't apply to Uber and Lyft. More general laws applying to hired cars should. E.g., Texas requires a chauffeur's license for any of those jobs.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Nooo... cannot be... And most drivers are Indians, right? Like in India being historically nearer to Africa than America, right?
I used to bag groceries when I was in high school, and back then the bagger would bring the groceries to your car for you and load them. They were frequently tipped, but not much.
We didn't have very many black people, so I didn't worry about them not tipping (there was one ghetto-looking family that for some reason felt entitled to park in the fire lane instead of getting a parking space like everyone else). However, I did learn to discriminate against people based on how many groceries they bought. I found that invariably, the people who bought so much stuff that it took 2 full carts would NEVER tip. Worse, these people usually expected me to push *both* carts at once! So I always tried to skip out on these jerks. People who bought 3 carts' worth of stuff, however, were good tippers, so it was important to be able to judge just how many carts of groceries they had bought. Also, old people were shitty tippers; they'd have expensive Cadillacs and give you a lecture about not slamming the trunk shut because it's auto-closing, but then get in their car and start it up and let you breathe fumes while loading the trunk. Middle-aged people with decent cars were the best tippers, frequently not getting that much stuff but still tipping the most (except maybe for the rare 3-cart shopper).
Unfortunately, it is true about black people and tipping: they're notoriously bad about it.
The Uber driver has the power to effect his prejudice by choosing not to pick up people he finds objectional. Power+prejudice=racism.
My experience with Uber is that the drivers are a mix of all ethnicities. It would be interesting to see how all groups did instead of singling out blacks. If only black people experience longer waits from a mix of all ethnicities maybe they should ask themselves why that might be? When everyone finds you "objectional" - maybe it's you.
White privilege is nothing magical. It just means the extra breaks you get for being white that other people don't get. It's a stupid name for a concept that absolutely happens all the time. Uber drivers are less likely to pick up blacks. Cops are more likely to pull over people of color. People with "black sounding" names get fewer callbacks for various applications. And on and on and on. Nobody asks for it, people may not even do it consciously, and each event doesn't even have to be particularly measurable. Even if the effect amounts to just 1% less opportunity a week, it compounds over a lifetime. When some members of a group have a little extra drag on their ability to live their life, the effect is that the others have privilege.
Perhaps you should consider where this "privilege" comes from. Or, if you prefer, where the mistrust comes from. When you have statistics like blacks are ~12% of the population yet commit half the murders then there is going to be a logical aversion. No amount of hand wringing over groups that generally behave getting less mistrust will change that. The only group that can change this is blacks themselves. Quotas and other forms of discrimination to benefit them will not fix their misdeeds, and will give those who do achieve the taint of was it them or was it their government mandated boost. As a side note, Asians get as much or more "privilege" than whites, given the benefit of the general Asian stereotype of a hard working productive group. Yet no discussion of "Asian privilege".
Just because something isn't a profanity-laden, blackfaced crossburning doesn't mean it isn't racist, or that it shouldn't be worked on.
Just how would this get worked on exactly? My personal belief is one standard that everyone is judged by regardless of race. The next best thing would be different standards but based on economic class rather than race. To use the example again of Obama's daughters, they have *far* more opportunities than a poor family of any race ever will. Economic based quotas make more sense than what we currently have. Economic quotas could also get far more public support than the current system of race based quotas.
And your comment about Obama's kids? That's true only because people know who they are. If they were wandering through their neighborhood in Chicago with their friends, you can bet they would be judged by the color of their skin rather than what their daddy's job is. That's kind of the point.
And what exactly would the result of wandering through Chicago be? I'm unclear where you're going with this one.
Huh. I guess white people are a minority, worldwide. And soon to be just another minority here at home, thankfully. Being a majority does weird things to people's heads. Like making them think they can put words in other people's mouths.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
You made (or missed) my point. Yes, for the reasons you pointed out, blacks are prejudiced. But my point was that the prejudice we feel keeps the status quo. Because you associate aggressive stupidity with the black community, you are less likely to engage with them (stupid or not) making them economically challenged, and preventing them from having the means to escape their below-average incomes and education.
I had someone mention it to me, then I had to do my own research after. The studies about the higher arrest rate are there, the studies about the higher conviction rate are there. The studies about longer sentences are there. The studies about recidivism are there. But the number of meta studies that follow the cumulative effect are few. When you do the numbers yourself, the answer is there, but nobody wants the answer. It shows the huge racial bias left in the US.
Learn to love Alaska
I just don't care. The possibility that someone grew up with poor parents and was too proud to change their name to make you feel better about them has probably never crossed your mind. If it has you've been quick to dismiss it because thinking about real racism might put you on the hook for doing something practical about it instead of something that "feels good".
My comment is still 100% valid. Her name tells you nothing about her as an individual. Only the circumstances of her birth.
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Given that blacks make up less than 15% of Americans, it doesn't take 85% of them to make a "hood".
50% blacks is a hood in my view...
It isn't, you just choose to think so...
It is called playing the odds, a black person is more likely to commit a crime against you.
If Obama's daughters were walking around Hyde Park, they would be more likely to get hassled by the cops than would, say, Barbara and Jenna Bush at the same age. Privilege, in this case, depends on what happens to the average citizen on the street. That some black men attain positions of power does not prove there is no racism, it only proves that there isn't 100% racism.
Your statistical defense proves nothing at best. Of course blacks get caught more for crimes, because they are disproportionately persued by law enforcement. White kid with pot? Confiscate and scold. Black kid with pot? Lock him up. Relatively minor shit like that adds up. Is racism as prevalent as some people claim? Probably not. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and on a pretty regular basis.
If Obama's daughters were walking around Hyde Park, they would be more likely to get hassled by the cops than would, say, Barbara and Jenna Bush at the same age. Privilege, in this case, depends on what happens to the average citizen on the street. That some black men attain positions of power does not prove there is no racism, it only proves that there isn't 100% racism.
Sounds like you're upset with police.
Your statistical defense proves nothing at best. Of course blacks get caught more for crimes, because they are disproportionately persued by law enforcement. White kid with pot? Confiscate and scold. Black kid with pot? Lock him up. Relatively minor shit like that adds up.
Actually this does *not* explain the far higher murder rate. I don't know how much you think being white will get you but I can assure you that murder is not part of it. Being rich and connected might, but few cases fall under that situation. Certainly not enough to be statistically meaningful. So my murder rate statistic really is meaningful and still stands. This is partly why police are more likely to be suspicious of blacks as a group.
Is racism as prevalent as some people claim? Probably not. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and on a pretty regular basis.
I think we agree on this one. My view is that the racism card is so overplayed that it's lost its meaning. A modern day version of crying wolf.
Speak for yourself. Don't excuse your admitted shortcomings by simply assuming "everyone else does it so it's cool to be a dick to strangers". Disgusting.
It's harder to just get on with shit when your so occupied with what colour every fucker is. Give it a rest already. Racism hasn't even a chance of going away while you're all on about black this, white that, brown, yellow, red and all the rest of it (apparently only black and white are the ones worth a damn though). Same with gender. Is white cop shoots innocent black person any worse than black cop shoots innocent white person and are either worse than cop shoots innocent person? If your answer is yes, you're part of the problem.
Wanna buy a shirt?
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It is still an irrational data point. Correlation is not causation.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
When you take race out of it and account for only similar circumstances, the differences all but dissappear. You can believe it's crying wolf, but you would be incorrect.
Never is a long time, human nature isn't static, and you don't know what you are talking about. but this is Slashdot so I guess that goes without saying.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
When you take race out of it and account for only similar circumstances, the differences all but dissappear. You can believe it's crying wolf, but you would be incorrect.
What's the "it" in this case? Are we talking about the murder rate, police, or a different aspect of the discussion? I'm not being snarky, and I'm happy to continue the discussion, I'm just not sure which circumstances and differences you're referring to.
Beating someone's head on concrete is hardly equivilent to defending yourself.
If someone knocks me on the ground and tries to kill me by repeatedly slamming my head into the concrete, if I have a gun, better believe I would shoot them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
It is clear from the pictures at this link that Zimmerman was being attacked by a violent offender, and being followed by someone does not give you the right to commit assault against them. If he was concerned, he should have walked to somewhere secure, or made a call to police (if he had a phone), not beat the shit out of someone for committing the crime of walking in the same direction as you.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
No, you're still wrong... but many people enjoy being wrong and then defend their wrongness...
Black people commit crimes at a higher rate than white people. That is not correlation, it is a fact...
It's still a correlation. There is no direct connection between skin color and criminality.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.