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Cutting H-1Bs Could Mean More Competition From China and India, Says GoDaddy CEO (cnbc.com)
Silicon Valley companies continue to express their concerns about the restrictions on H-1B visa program. The H-1B visa program -- which enables U.S. companies to hire foreign workers -- has become a political lightning rod but remains essential for American companies to hire the technical talent they need to compete on a global scale, said GoDaddy CEO Blake Irving. From his interview on CNBC: "We do not produce enough technically qualified candidates in this country," he said. "You can't take an 18-month training program and produce a machine-learning scientist." Irving was particularly concerned about overseas competition. The American university system is good at training foreign workers for tech jobs, and it is essential that the U.S. government allows them to stay in the country to fulfill U.S. jobs, he said. Otherwise, we train workers from countries like China and India and then send them back to those countries to set up tech ecosystems that compete with Silicon Valley.
Competition is generally regarded as a good thing. When these people stay in the USA, they generally depress wages and send all the money they earn back to their home countries anyway, which does the rest of the US economy no good at all. Really I'm not sure we should even have any sort of H1-B program at all.
Maybe the University could just train the American kids instead.... I know... I'm throwing up in my mouth as I type it.
Just hire locals you cheap-ass CEOs. You'll get more adept, better labor for it and it pays for itself in having a more agile company.
> "You can't take an 18-month training program and produce a machine-learning scientist."
That's fine - if you're looking for machine-learning scientists.
Unfortunately, the majority of the recipients of these H1B's are low paid scab labor, imported to cut labor costs.
Raising the cost of H1B's should take care of that loophole while still allowing GoDaddy to import their "machine-learning scientists".
CEO who profits from cheap labor wants more cheap labor. Film at 11.
If it's coming from GoDaddy, it can safely be ignored. Fucking shitty company.
Yeah, there is a hot bed of IT Progress. Unless you mean firewalls.
anyone who has attended university in the last 10 years knows whats up with chinese students
they band together in 3s and 4s and join your team for the group project
then do no work
its a reason schools have had to adopt peer reviews and individual assignments of group projects
they also cheat like mofos and the u's response is "be culturally sensitive they are group oriented"
yea, well fuck that you're diluting the value of my degrees by letting rich chinese push their shit children through the system
Just pay him 100k.
The Trump administration is considering reprioritizing H-1B visas. Right now, such visas are given out based on a lottery around April 1, which is utterly irrational and chaotic; it causes outsourcing firms to flood the visa application process with numerous fake applications, instead of the visas going to US companies that actually need those workers. Under the new rules, H-1B visas would be given to the highest paid workers and with precedence to people graduating from US universities. No matter what you think about the absolute number of H-1B visas, that's a good change to the immigration program.
If, in addition, the US reduces the number of work visas, that would result in more foreign competition, unless made up for elsewhere. But Trump has generally advocated a merit-based immigration system, which may mean more skilled immigrants (as opposed to H-1B visa holders) and less unskilled labor and family-based immigration. Again, that seems like a win-win.
Of course, we'll have to see what he actually does. The Orange One is a bit unpredictable and tends to act rashly.
They'll say anything to keep their cheap slave labor.
If China and India could compete, they'd be doing it already.
The American university system is good at training foreign workers for tech jobs, and it is essential that the U.S. government allows them to stay in the country to fulfill U.S. jobs, he said. Otherwise, we train workers from countries like China and India and then send them back to those countries to set up tech ecosystems that compete with Silicon Valley
For many, the hope is to get out of where they came from, not go back. If there's no prospect of a job here, many will not come in the first place because uprooting and going to learn under a new system with a foreign language...not easy to do.
He should talk to all the developers from Disney who were replaced with H1B workers and forced to train them.
Instead of restricting the number of h1b's, it would be simpler if we just taxed them. It could be a flat fee like 20k/year per h1b or it could be a percentage like 20% of payroll. Either way, it would allow companies to hire as many h1b candidates as they need but still give them an incentive to hire local talent first. The number one complain everyone has with h1b is that h1b employees are willing to work for less but if you added a yearly surcharge to the h1b then that argument becomes void because it would then be cheaper to hire local talent than h1b. You could even go to 50% or 100% if you needed to but to me a surcharge makes more sense than a hiring cap. A 50% surcharge would make local talent at 149k cheaper to hire than a h1b at 100k which would completely get rid of the complain that the only reason companies hire h1b is to save money not because the talent isn't available.
Now is the time to invest in bananas and Purinia Chimp Chow futures. Unfortunately, it's not a good time for flush toilets and plumbing manufacturers.
While many on /., including me, do engineering because we are geeky and love the challenge, that's not the case for average people. For average people, programming or tinkering with computers are boring and stressful jobs. They might choose to do it because the field has brighter employment future. That's why Americans don't want to take up the jobs. Even in China, the newer generation would avoid engineering and opt for finance or entertainment, because as the newer generations grow up a richer economy and so no longer under stress for survival.
Once you have a lot of people entering the fields, there will also be sufficient number of good practitioners produced.
So if the employment prospects of other fields are dimmer, Americans will rush back into engineering. They already started the shift, witnessing all the talks about computer science classes for kiddies.
I can't hire System Engineers for $9 hour so obviously the problem is that there aren't enough System Engineers here.
If you want the equivalent of a College B.S. in machine learning 18 months of intense training is more than you'd actually get during your 4 years at college. possibly even more than a masters. If you are looking for PhD level, then 18 months maybe isn't there entirely. But over the next year or two of work experience, in a job emphasizing research in AI with a good mentor, would definitely produce pHD level graduates. I know this because I've seen it done at my company, producing major leaders through this process.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
A lot of the moves that new administration suggested as making things better for the US worker, actually undermines the USA's position in the world and actually will end up potentially hurting jobs. Often the "take it all" approach it actually the less ideal position of giving up a little.
Helping NATO's members and the UN, while maybe not the best sounding when it comes to money, it does end up allowing the US to have sway over the politics of other countries and therefore help keep the US as a focal point for business.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
We the elists CEOs who like fucking over US programmers are going seriously take it in the ass if we eliminate H1B visa's! We may be forced to close and live on the same crap income we planned for our programmers! Whaaaaahh.. my pussy hurts! Make it stop!
Once upon a time in the US, people learned their trade on the job. It was expected that the company would train the worker to do the job. What happened?
No matter the issue, Trump doesn't understand anything other ratings and popularity. He gets a certain segment of the population riled up with really simple ideas 1) we're bringing jobs back 2) every problem you have is the fault of this group of people 3) if the jobs don't come back, it the fault of another group of people
He sets the stage for other people to fight it out and get attention for himself. He has absolutely no interest in solving problems, no ability to understand what his actions do, and no empathy for the people he affects.
This shit will continue.
I work with dozens of H1B visa holders. I scoured the lands of the US for 1.5 years to fill a vacant position and I couldn't find anyone in the US to do it. I work in NIH funded research and needed a programmer at $45k/yr. I was fine with a new college grad, and I still couldn't find anyone. Eventually I get an email from someone in Turkey, and we hired her. She's amazing. However if this shit with the H1B's goes through, we can't pay her and she'll have to go back. I won't be able to fill the position. We'll have to let go 6 employees whom we can't replace. If just this H4E spousal visa shit happens, then my employee's husband will have to leave. The spouses of 3 of our employees would have to leave.
Why can't we find the right people here? I honestly don't know. I went to every college in the area and said "If you have taken a programming class, I want you. I'll pay you. I'll train you in the languages we use" and no responses. Why??
http://github.com/gbook/nidb
That's the trick, isn't it. Good luck, management guy.
" You can't take an 18-month training program and produce a machine-learning scientist"
He is right you can't, however that does not mean we do not need to change the system to encourage more American talent to go down this route. This is actually why a bidding system for H1Bs would be great. People with high level skills will continue to be allowed in. Also those with high potential will also be brought in. The Low skill low talent low cost hacks will be priced out. We have enough people who can fill that need with the 18--month training programs.
I have no problem with having a H1-B program but if a company is going to use H1-Bs then they should be forced to have pay bands no greater than $20k. Every company I've worked at with H1-Bs has pay bands of $40k or $60k. Example: pay band $60k-$100k. US worker makes $90k, foreigner makes $65k. Layoffs come and you know who gets laid-off every time. When the difference between the US and foreign worker is only $5k then the layoff is based on merit.
is very, very nice. It's on Lake Washington in a new building between Kirkland and Bellevue which are both booming tech cities. I have a couple of friends that work there, and they now only hire low-cost Indians. I had two interns that were making $10 per hour that are now full-time employees there making $12 after they graduated from Univ of Washington. They're hiring incompetent, low-cost people that can't do the job. Of course they want to keep that pipeline of cheap idiots open.
yeah, hiring foreign workers isn't a problem if those workers actually have skills that a local worker doesn't, but that's 99% not the case, those foreign workers are hired because they are much cheaper than the local workers, but don't have extra skills (mostly even less)..
If the education system is good enough to produce competent and skilled foreign students, it should be good enough to produce competent and skilled American students.
Let's be honest, the current system doesn't benefit the American workers. Because of its restrictions and limitations, it also does not benefit the foreign workers. It simply benefits the companies hiring, as they can assemble a temporary talent pool with no long term commitments.
A person has aspirations, history and character. They grow, develop skills, and have the potential contribute meaningfully at all stages of their career.
They are not part #3458, that wears out every five years, needs servicing every two months, and is already an outdated model.
They are not simply human resources.
They are people.
All your bigotrious bemoanings are product of the late nineties. Well... time has changed and so should you. Adapt, and do not parasite.
How does paying $100K to H-1B employees, interfere with that? No-one's claiming the H-1B system is unnecessary and his bleating of how hard done-by the IT sector is, only serves to hide real crimes with smoke and mirrors.
Yet, that is exactly what the Fortune 500 set are trying to do: How about addressing that problem?
Then don't force them to leave; give them green cards.
That has been happening for some time: How about admitting that problem?
The labor market is very complicated and unintuitive. Obviously, analyses that assume a lump sum of labor are laughably wrong. And empirical observation suggests that, in general, immigration improves the labor situation (decreases the unemployment rate). But, occasionally, protectionism targeted toward specific sectors of the economy has seemed to work in the short term.
So, on one hand, I'm like why not go ahead and try? Go ahead and do the experiment: send all the H-1B workers back to their home countries. See what happens. My suspicion is that American workers who were struggling to find decent jobs when the H-1B workers were here will still struggle to find decent jobs when the H-1Bs are gone. But it's complicated and unintuitive. And I'm am just a bit curious. Plus, if it fails, one might hope that would put a damper on all the ugly anti-immigrant sentiment in the USA.
But, on the other hand, there's a chance that sending the H-1Bs back to their home countries could do some long term damage to the US tech sector. Imagine that Silicon Valley were to end up like Detroit or Flint or Saginaw. It's not completely impossible that if the world's best and brightest are sent back to work at foreign companies then these foreign companies will eventually outcompete the US companies that are only allowed to hire Americans. But I was in the same class with Larry Page for a year back in grade school and one of the main things I remember about him was that he wasn't willing to let himself get pushed around. So if Larry has a choice between letting the world's best at brightest go work for his competitors or simply moving those jobs overseas to existing Google offices in other countries that aren't quite as crazy as the USA (Canada, New Zealand, Australia, perhaps even somewhere in the UK or western Europe), my money would be on those jobs moving overseas.
For Trump supporters, it's a good time to remember the ancient Chinese curse: "May you get everything you want." :)
And most of those 60K plus workers are machine learning people earning less than 130K/year? The program cuts won't hurt those guys. They WILL hurt the guys coming in at 60K (the minimum) who are replacing the 45-50 year old programmers earning 100-140K, that they are replacing at less than half the cost, that said 45-50 workers have to TRAIN to do their job
-- 73 de KG2V For the Children - RKBA! "You are what you do when it counts" - the Masso
Just some thoughts.
1. Sounds like an ad for Devry or one of those other diploma mills where they take you money and leave you unemployed and unemployable.
2. Any "profession" where you need just 18 month of training isn't really a profession. It's semi-skilled labor on par with stone mason and below carpenter cause you cant train a real carpenter in 18 months (take more like 3 years).
3. Sticking scientist in the title doesn't make them scientists. I prefer "hash table monkeys."
4. If all you need is 18 months to train up these people than you really don't need foreigners -- go troll the homeless shelters and halfway houses for candidates.
5. Yes, I'm a bitter coder with an MS in comp sci who would never interview a code academy grad to pour my coffee to say nothing of doing any back end development. In my not so limited experience they are only good for front end work and sorry to break it to you but all that work is going to India for $1 an hour.
There's THOUSANDS of universities teaching engineering and each school has THOUSANDS of students.
http://www.educationnews.org/career-index/engineering-schools/
And there's no fucking growth. Companies simply want CHEAP LABOR that lives in constant fear.
How will American kids even have the chops to enter university with Betsy DeVos as Secretary of Education ?
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
This is the very same reason why unqualified H1-B people should not be let slide in. H1-B is designated to augment where the trained workforce is not avvailable, not to import cheap labor, train them and send them back to their homeland to compete against the US workers. Abolishing H1-B is counter productive as US can not be expected to have highly trained workforce in every possible scientific discipline, but importing candidates for managing Windows servers is just wrong.
__________
The more I know people, the more I love animals
... it's probably a good thing.
I went to the US for my Master's in a top-25 state uni. I was good, so I didn't even have to pay after the first semester (research assistanship). I worked with an H1b for 3 years (at a competitive rate), but when I was close to renewal, we'd have to file on the first day and hope we were not late competing with all the outsourcing companies bringing free labor, then my wife who was also finishing her degree would have to get a separate H1b, because H1b's don't allow your dependents to work, so both would have to be timed perfectly... and if any of our employers ran out of business etc, we'd have to scramble to get another to continue our visa... at which point I said, yeah, right, screw that, let's go back to Europe, which is what several of my classmates eventually did...
So, why provide world-leading education and then send them away? Forget about setting arbitrary wage minimums - that doesn't even make sense given how much wages are dependent on location in the US. Give people who have post-grad studies in good US universities a way to stay without weird restrictions like being tied to a job, or dependents who can't work etc, instead of sending them away and instead importing low-cost unskilled labor.
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
The American university system is good at training foreign workers for tech jobs, and it is essential that the U.S. government allows them to stay in the country to fulfill U.S. jobs
I wonder who would be getting trained for those jobs if public universities were required to admit all qualified US applicants before accepting foreign applicants?
I don't see the problem. If their is literally not a single American that can fill the position, then you should have no trouble paying the H1B that does fill the role what he is worth.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
If they could outsource the jobs to India or China where the costs are lower they wouldn't need H1-bs. They want the visas because for whatever reason the work needs to be done here in America.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Looks like Blake Irving (https://www.linkedin.com/in/blakeirving) has never worked in any technical capacity and always has been a PHB, I will heed his words like it came from cow manure. I won't be surprised if he is the type of person who would screw others for his own personal gain
"You can't take an 18-month training program and produce a machine-learning scientist."
I swear, many of the H1B visa holders I've met, went thru an 18 week Java program to list it on their resume.
Heck, even a number of my friends here on H1B visas want them to be cut back. It's getting to hard for them to switch jobs.
All I ever heard of it before on here was how awful it was.
If only to be the epitome of the problem.
Let make this analogous to the the poor farmers in the US who "can't find anyone to work those jobs".
"
I work with dozens of Illegal immigrants. I scoured the lands of the US for 1.5 years to fill a vacant position and I couldn't find anyone in the US to do it. I work in Apple Picking and needed a picker at $5k/yr. I was fine with a kid dropped out of high school, and I still couldn't find anyone. Eventually I get an email from someone in Mexico, and we hired her. She's amazing. However if this shit with the Illegals goes through, we can't pay her (a living wage) and she'll have to go back. I won't be able to fill the position. We'll have to let go 6 employees whom we can't replace (or marginally raise prices as everyone else will helping to boost a cyclical economy).
Why can't we find the right people here? I honestly don't know (I do but I want to address my unwillingness to pay the market price for talent). I went to every college in the area and said "If you have taken a programming class, I want you. I'll pay you (as little as I possibly can, maybe call you an intern and not at all). I'll train you in the languages we use" and no responses. Why??
"
1. Adjust income to $100K, adjusted by inflation. Any position not meeting the criteria is subject to investigation, and heavy penalty if a U.S. able bodied and qualified willing worker is found.
2. H1B Visa is held by company only for the first year. After that the H1B Visa holder is a free agent. If the skill is so rare, that it cannot be filled within the U.S., and another firm also needs the skill. They should be able to hire the Visa holder. This will likely mean an offer for increased wage, and mean this skillset will increase in value. All a good thing.
3. H1B Visa Education Tax. The justification for H1B Visas is that no one in America has the qualified skills. (Though usually the case is no one in America can afford to take a $60K job in a major metro area where their choice is to live in a high crime area or have a 2+ hour daily commute.) But let's take it at face value. A skill is needed, it pays well, no candidates have the training. So let's get some Americans trained. For every $100K salary increment of an H1B visa, there will be an additional $10K tax that will help fund making community colleges free.
So an $65K Java position will have an additional $10K tax. A doctor making $285K will have an additional $30K tax.
4. Prohibit mandated salary reductions of H1B Visa holders.
I'll bet I could be really competitive in business if I underpaid all my workers. Maybe this whole thing wouldn't even show up as an issue had it not been for the historic abuse of the H1B program by big US companies? Remember the Disney fiasco of not too long ago? I thought one of Trump's campaign promises to was to mandate a minimum wage for H1B workers, so they would only be used when REALLY needed, rather than just be used to undercut US tech salaries.
"We do not produce enough technically qualified candidates in this country"
"Forced to train H1B replacement"
Pick one.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
I want to see some actual data to back up this claim that they can't find qualified individuals within the US. I also want to see evidence that companies aren't just playing games to try and pay lip service to the letter of the law, like writing a job description based on a specific applicant's resume/CV. I would love to see data that says Disney and Edison were just anomalies, and most companies really do make a genuine good-faith effort to find US talent before resorting to turning to outsourcing companies. I just suspect that such data doesn't exist.
My general experience has been that companies don't want to invest in their employees anymore. Companies expect 100% loyalty from employees, but companies will not hesitate to throw any employee under the bus the instant it becomes advantageous for them to do so. You have to wonder how many other "no poach" and other wage suppressing agreements, like the one between Apple, Google, Intel, Adobe, etc, exist between other companies in other industries. Upper management makes all kinds of short-term decisions to meet next-quarter goals, which simultaneously flush the long-term sustainability of the company down the toilet. It sort of reminds me of the Dilbert bit from the Y2K episode.
Dilbert: We won't a have a year 2000 problem in this company. All of our computers are new.
Wally: Not all. You're forgetting Black Betty.
Alice: Black Betty. That mainframe was replaced years ago.
PHB: Black Betty. Did you say Black Betty? Boy I haven't thought about old Black Betty in ages-- Maybe never.
But she's real. As real as the dwarf who sneaks into my bedroom at night and steals my underwear.
Dilbert: About that mainframe
PHB: Not now. I'm reminiscing. Where was I? Black Betty. Yes, Black Betty the mainframe. Boy, oh, boy. We thought about replacing her years ago but then we thought "Well, why not just cobble our new systems to the old one with untold miles of spaghetti code and obsolete coax cable?"
Dilbert: Why'd you do that?!
PHB: It was an executive decision. We figured it would save money in the short run and only later plunge the company into darkness after we executives had all left for other companies.
...
PHB: You have my full support to fix the problem. Unless it involves any sort of resources or decisions or effort on my part. Remember: Money is no object. Unless, of course, you plan to spend it.
For an H1B, you are supposed to pay the normal rate.
It's $60k/yr in rural low-tax places. It's $90k/yr in normal cities. It's $120k/yr in the tech and financial hot spots.
You have committed a crime, causing wages to be reduced and causing a reduction in people willing to enter the field.
"We do not produce enough technically qualified candidates in this country," he said. "You can't take an 18-month training program and produce a machine-learning scientist."
While the second part of that statement may be true, the first is not for the vast, vast majority of H-1B positions.
Do we really not have enough people that know Java, for example? I call bullshit.
FFS, we invented Java, and to claim that the US doesn't have enough skilled Java programmers to fill the demand is just plain bullshit. This is all about getting workers below-scale and who are slavishly compliant because they don't want to be sent back to whatever jobless, 3rd-world shithole they came from.
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Is anyone shocked that corporate-owned media is serving up stories and interviews with corporate bosses that favor corporate profits? Where are the interviews with workers who lost their jobs?
I'm still puzzled at why there isn't any anger from rank-and-file liberals at how the corporate interests infiltrated and took over the liberal movement to the point where every liberal newspaper is advocating policies that favor corporate profits, such as globalization and importing cheap labor. There was a brief backlash in the form of the Bernie movement, but the corporate liberals squashed that pretty quick in favor of their stooge Clinton.
"I work with dozens of H1B visa holders. I scoured the lands of the US for 1.5 years to fill a vacant position and I couldn't find anyone in the US to do it. I work in NIH funded research and needed a programmer at $45k/yr."
Ya, you were budgeted $45K/year. That's not enough to live on in most of the country, especially not with student loans that an education in the field requires. So basically, what you're saying is your failure to find a candidate had NOTHING to do with their abilities or skills. It simply was a matter of you not being willing to pay a reasonable salary. So you took advantage of someone from a second world country.
Congrats.....
10 to 1, you're also a registered Democrat or an Independent who voted for Hillary.
Reminds me of an add I saw.
"Social Worker position. Must have doctorate. Salary $35K/year."
Um really, how are you going to find any one with a doctorate at that salary? Oh, hire a foreigner who has no college debt from their degree.
Oh give me a break. GoDaddy runs a seedy domain registrar and some hosting services.
Here's how you fix the H1B abuses:
1. Minimum wage - I propose $150k per year. H1B visas were designed to attract the most brilliant minds of their fields - not run-of-the-mill programers and systems engineers. The fact that most H1Bs make the low-ends of their pay spectrum shows the visas are being used as cheap imported labor.
2. Corporations should not hold the visas - the visas must be granted to and held by individuals - and they are not transferrable. This would ensure that only the most motivated and skilled would come here and be hired by sponsoring companies. If the visa holder ends his/her employment with the sponsoring company the visa expires and can not be renewed in that year and can not be reissued to another candidate. This would encourage sponsoring companies to treat their visa holders as humans instead of indentured servants.
3. Small annual cap of visas - maybe 50,000 or less. This would ensure only the most valuable and skilled positions are filled by these visa holders.
Wipro, Tata and Infosys can go cry me a river.
You live in a dream world. Those gifted but poor kids still won't be able to get the classes they need. Charter schools won't set up in poor areas because the potential administrators know they won't succeed.
The poor parents can't afford to gifted send their children to another district because they don't have the time and money. All that will happen is those poor kids will attend schools that are even more starved of resources because of the effects of vouchers.
The problem that Betsy DeVos wants to "solve" is that public schools don't teach religion and creationism.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
"I was good, so I didn't even have to pay after the first semester (research assistanship)."
Funny, those programs were often available for foreign students but not U.S. students. Go figure. Most U.S. students, even the ones graduating with 4.0's walk out with thousands in debt.
I find it incredible that CEOs claim a shortage and yet manage to keep raises 2%. I have no doubt a company will to pay can find well qualified employees. The same goes for more STEM graduates.
"We do not produce enough technically qualified candidates in this country,"
Complete Bullshit.
What they mean is..."We do not produce enough technically qualified candidates in this country that we can pay low wages and hold hostage with H1-B visas"
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Why should I be obliged or inclined to pay a worker any more or less than I would pay an equally qualified one who was from somewhere elsee?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
If we have so much need for these specialized workers then PAY THEM what they are worth. The exact equivalent of an American who was doing the same freakin' job with the same skills and same background.
And then make sure they get taxed just like every other American.
Most people who work IT would no longer have an issue with it. In fact, they could get more h1b visas then.
The only people that would think that making what a H1-B hire makes is a good deal thinks so 'cause a free green card comes attached.
- real hackers don't have sigs -
That's under the H1B salary minimum of $60k/year. You don't pay enough. Even the "body shop" contracting agencies pay more than that for junior devs in 3rd tier cities. I lived and worked in one of the poorest cities in the US and starting contractor wages were $28 an hour as a w2 consultant through an agency. You are very much out of line with the market and that's why you have a problem. Even during the worst of the recession, that wage would be very bad.
Presently, kids in a poor countries have zero choice. They're stuck in that country.
Betsy DeVos is a country choice advocate. So her desire is to allow children to avoid such countries. You're !@#$% about globalization. Hmm, let's put it in perspective.
What Betsy DeVos is advocating for human beings is akin to globalization. Now just imagine, if you were ONLY allowed to live in the country you were born in. Imagine that for a minute. Let's say you only had a sweat-shop factory in your country. You would be limited to earning fuck-all and dying young. Or you would have to move. But that's not so easy, because most of the better jobs are in affluent countries where the locals don't want to compete with you.
You want to pursue your vocation. You're gifted. You have a talent for it. But the people in the western world don't want to offer anything beyond condescending applause. You really wanted to share your knowledge and motivation with others. But you can't, you're trapped in your country.
If you think that is unrealistic, than you're effing clueless about the real world. Heck, I was lucky. I was able to participate in a program that allowed me to be born in the wealthy country I live in. Because my country doesn't offer other kids from other countries that option. Not ever kid is so lucky.
Differences in school quality can be only a few miles difference.
And, once it becomes possible to have kids go to schools farther away, people will come up with solutions. Good parents will fall all over themselves to get their kids into a good system if they can.
Locking people into dangerous school systems with no future is the problem. Let people try to make a better life for their kids. Give them a choice for once.
Betsy is interested in turning education into a for-profit enterprise. That's worked so well for medical care, let's fuck up American schools with the same bullshit.
inflation used to be a lot higher, too
one could even make the argument that the two things are related
Mr. Irving says that the new rules could stop specialists from coming over and working. Actually, these are the people we should have on H1-B's, people who have a particular skill and will be paid at the going rate or higher because they do have a unique skill set. People coming in on H1-Bs that do not have any unique skills (Server Admins, Mid & Entry level coders) and are paid below going rates maybe should not be part of the program. I like the idea of H1-Bs having a minimum salary, people who are skilled will still be able to come with no issues.
"...candidates in this country who are willing for work 65 hours a week for $33,000 a year."
Instead of crying about how they need foreigners to fill the gap, what are these tech companies doing to support local career development such as through code camps and education? There are plenty of people with the brains to fill the requirements, just no will to invest in their training. Importing talented people because you refuse to educate your own people who have the talent but not the training, is not the answer.
If it where only highly qualified individuals like people specializing in machine learning when it wouldn't be an issue. H1-B was suppose to supplement a technical work force, sadly it seems too many well publicized incidents of companies using it as a source of cheap labor (especially in IT departments) to replace their existing work force have created at least the perception of wide spread abuse.
2) every problem you have is the fault of this group of people
He sets the stage for other people to fight it out and get attention for himself.
The 1% and income inequality is the BIGGEST issue the US faces -Obama/Clinton
What was that you were saying again? Oh yea, you completely ignored what you claim is the SPECIFIC issue with Trump when Obama did it for 8 years and Clinton ran on that. Other than Trump isn't doing that as well, you have completely reversed the problem.
Canning H1Bs would be the best thing to happen to the US tech sector.
Here in Nashville, charter schools set up in poor areas and keep coming the asses of public schools. I have friends who are illegal aliens, their kids go to a STEM charter that's tough as hell.
Quit getting your information from the NEA, democrats, and media matters. It's a big world out there.
Do you have ESP?
There should be very little to choose from. All schools should be raised to the highest standard. If a school requires certain students or tuition costs to be "successful" there is a problem with the education system as a whole. Don't have to burn it down, just make sure we aren't playing a shell game with the future generation's education.
You just described classic H1B abuse. You could not find someone for what you were willing to pay so you imported a worker. If you did not have a choice to import a worker you would have had to raise the pay until you would have found someone local. What is even worst, you are using US tax payer money to pay for your visa abuse.
I'm a H1B from India with 20 yrs of exp, about 15 of that in the US. I haven't got my greed card yet because I missed a chance in 2012, when I had to goto India as my mother in law passed away. Since then I have been waiting for the GC dates to get "current". I have to say I have fallen in love with the US and its free-thinking culture, but may have to go back if Mr.Trump says so. Don't get me wrong, I do love India too. Its like being asked whether I love my birth mother or my adopted mother - I love both dearly. There are about 15 other people I know who are in a similar situation. These are guys who are extraordinary fighters - I have seen them solve some very complex problems at work. They have a hunger to learn, grow, and prove themselves, because they know that being immigrants, they will be dumped in the gutter if they remain average. And this comes from, whether you like it or not, from our frugal background in India when we were growing up, when we had no other choice but to study, and study hard. We didn't have a boundary to a rich nation that we could simply cross over. If these people do go back, it will be a huge loss for the US, and a great gain for India. I agree the H1B abuse must be sternly dealt with (heck, it brings people like me a very bad name), but to let go of these people is a huge mistake.
I see similarities with the last days of the Roman empire, when there was extreme violence against immigrants. A half barbarian general Stilicho was mrdered because of suspicion, even though he was trying his best to keep the empire together. Of course, there won't be a violence this time around, but the US risks giving up its dominance on the world. And by god, if that happens, the world is screwed, just like the dark ages that came after the fall of Rome. The world cannot afford any other nation, like Russia or China to take up the mantle of big brother. I will take the US with all its faults above any other country, anywhere, anytime....
Why should I be obliged or inclined to pay a worker any more or less than I would pay an equally qualified one who was from somewhere elsee?
You might be inclined to pay less if you thought you could get away with it.
You might be obliged to pay more, to preclude that possibility.
It's become nothing more than a vehicle of deception, propaganda and theft.
Get your analog modems out of the basement it's time to go back to BBS's
We do not produce enough technically qualified candidates in this country
Utter crap. Should I point this guy to the story about how Disney imported a bunch of H-1B workers... and then had their CURRENT EMPLOYEES train them? The H1-B either needs to be shuttered completely, or they need to require that the H-1B worker be paid 50% above the industry average. Take away the incentive to use them as cheap replacement labor.
According to ECON101, when demand outstrips supply, the price of a good goes up.
In this case, that means wages so I decided to take a look. According to the Federal Bureau of lagor statistics, STEM salaries grew at ~2% a year from 2013-2015 nationally. Meanwhile wages for "Computer Systems Design and Related Services" grew at ~2.3 a year. Inflation last year was 2.1% so if there is a STEM shortage, it must be very small.
In comparison if you are part of the ownership class, your NASDAQ index fund grew by 50%.
Anyone else have any good numbers to back up the anecdotes?
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
The problem is: most American kids don't want to study any "hard" subjects.
Part of the reason is that they're saddled with serious deficiencies in high school (which they've got to make up for when they get to university through ... you got it ... steep learning curves and hard work).
Part of the reason is that American culture doesn't sit well with concentration and intellectual endeavours. Students need "encouragement" to switch off their g*dforsaken cellphones during lectures and in class. Many American students have trouble sitting still in a library and concentrating on their studies for single hour without fiddling with their phones, peeking at social media sites, or having background music in their ears all the time. That isn't conducive to STEM subjects at all, although people with lots of talent manage to shrug off that particular handicap.
Last but not least, many students (correctly) perceive that taking a tough STEM subject only sets them for a future as a cubicle-dwelling engineer, to be outsourced, downsized and off-shored by other students they partied with at university (who went for an MBA and were then appointed as their manager). Given the high cost of failing the course (or even getting low to really mediocre grades) and the higher-than-average probability of having this happen to them, the decision _not_ to pursue a STEM subject has certain rational underpinnings.
I'm sure the AC who did the parent post has never walked around, say, the graduate studies area at MIT, Stanford, UCI, Caltech or wherever. Half the graduate students at least are foreign. Simply because they're bright, motivated, and hard-working. Block those from coming and you lose half the brainpower. And half your competitive advantage as a university.
So, no. It's a lot more complicated than Trumpian bellygood duckspeak of "American kids First" suggests.
American kids have all the opportunities they need for STEM studies. What they require is better career prospects, more appreciation, and mitigation of the handicaps imposed by their culture and the high schools they're sent to.
I'd love to see ANY education system in ANY country produce a machine learning expert, even with a 4 year program, let alone 18 months.
*Nobody* does this. Why? Cause it's not fucking possible. There have been so many incredible advances just in the past few years, that there is no way in hell you can train someone up from scratch, drop them in front of a workstation and have them start coding.
Combine that with, for example India, where their education system does it's absolute damndest to stifle anything resembling original thinking (which is kind of required in a field as dynamic as AI) or even basic critical thinking skills (which is obvious to anyone who has ever had to deal with outsourced developers), it becomes blindingly obvious that this is just more of the same horse shit companies have been spewing for years.
They don't want foreign people for their brains. They want them cause they're cheap. People complain about fake news? It's been around a whole lot longer than then token phrase that just magically appeared a year or two ago, and this is a perfect example of it. Bald-faced lies being parroted about in order to alter government policy for the benefit of big corporations, and to the detriment of the actual techies who have an increasingly more difficult time getting paid what they're worth.
Why would GoDaddy need H1B visa hires? I'd love to see the job descriptions for these, which apparently can't be fulfilled by existing American talent.
It has to be based on what the actual worker meat receives after the contract company skim...
Immigrants attending an American University for four to eight years are on track for naturalization and easily qualify for green cards. The H1-B people I've worked with mostly went to school oversees and came here for a job that has better benefits and pay than their home country. They are also mostly slaves to their jobs because they only get two weeks to find a new job before their visa expires if they're fired or laid off; that means deportation btw. The company gets a lower paid, more agreeable worker from H1-B visas.
The corporations aren't genuine at all about their reasons for using H1-Bs in a vast majority of cases, and they're all pretending that they use them only for the extraordinary cases where they genuinely couldn't find local talent. The key piece missing in the CEO's statement is: "not enough local talent [for the best price]."
Think globally but act within local variable scope.
>> (H1Bs) remain essential for American companies to hire the technical talent they need
I call bullshit. There are plenty of software developers out there. The thing thats actually biting all these company's hring managers asses is that they don't want to pay the going wage when they can hire someone from Pakistan with zero skill and a photoshopped degree certificate for minimum wage, only because they aren't also including the increased rework costs, deylaed releases and cost of losing customers because of bad software quality on their own department's budget statement.
At 30 everyone wanted to hire me. At 45, nobody would hire me.
Maybe if you stopped this blatant age discrimination / forced retirement in your 40s you would find plenty of machine-learning scientists.
Competition is one of evolutionary primary forces. Everyone will benefit in the long run.
I don't know I had a whole long tirade planned for this article. I've been outsouced or wrong-sourced so many times it's not funny. I've probably trained 20 replacements. One time they replaced me with 6 people (5 of them H1Bs and one Leader from the US). After 3 months they hired me back. Other times they just suffered on until someone else took up the work. The way I look at it, if you CAN'T find people here capable of doing the work, then you should be able to go outside the US to find someone who can. The problem is, these companies aren't looking for people who CAN do the job here. They don't even look here, they go straight to the H1B market. They don't want to pay IT people what's they are worth. Two additional points... H1B is a fancy way of saying "Indentured Servant", I don't know all the rules but I have had good friends who tried to move or get paid what they were worth, but the contract house they worked for could hold that H1B up and threaten them with going home if they asked for any more money. Did anyone realize that most "Executive Support" is done by Non-H1B workers? Everywhere I've worked if the executives (and sometimes everyone in accounting) have their own support group they are all from the US. Just saying... How come they get to have the expensive people come plug their new monitors in when their more important than the core business (building cars/airplanes/medical devices). This sucks, I became a ranter..
Trump's immigration ban is even worse than GoDaddy's CEO points out. Right now, people from 7 countries are seeing the US back out of its promise that they could come here and finish their degrees, or work here. These people invested years of their lives on their education and/or careers, only to fall afoul of an illogical whim of the current Pr*sident. If this type of crap continues, international students from all over the world will stop trusting that they can make a good life here. We'll stop getting the sharpest people immigrating, and those people will go elsewhere, and establish companies elsewhere. * -- popular vote loser
>The poor parents can't afford to gifted send their children to another district because they don't have the time and money. All that will happen is those poor kids will attend schools that are even more starved of resources because of the effects of vouchers.
Am poor.
Have child in another district's gifted school, very far away.
Guess what our completely genius solution is?
Getting up early.
Ta da.
You live in a dream world of steriotypes & cartoon characters.
PS: extra credit if you can find the hilarity in your own sentence that proves you are hardly gifted
>...parents can't afford to gifted send their children...
(unless you are Yoda)?
_
A good education starts at home. Neither of my parents were college educated but my sister and I both graduated HS early. I completed HS one full year early, and my younger sister full three years, in part due to my assistance in her education as well. We both scored over 33 on the ACT and were able to go to any public school in our state for completely free. All due to parents who gave a fuck and enforced effort.
Parents, like everyone else, want to buck personal responsibility to someone else. This is the inherent problem with a large government. People give up doing things for themselves and fire up the blame game.
If you want something done, do it your fucking self.
Maybe you shouldn't let HR make your hiring decisions.
And this is the crux of the problem. PhBs (per Dilbert) and HR making hiring decisions. I'm retired from one of the top defense contractors - I constantly saw totally unqualified candidates and hires. Bosses and idiot new hires who tried to convert 2M lines of MatLab/Simulink code (which produced a binary) to MathCAD! No, I'm not jesting - a MathCAD sales sails droid got to a Veep about how MathCAD was cheaper than MatLab/Simulink and told him it could replace it. These alternative facts propagated down the chain of command in the best Kelllyanne Conway fashion.
Well to be honest the concept of binary would complete blow a Gender Studies major's mind....
And gender studies would the reject all mathematics instead of recognizing an inappropriate model. (Fuzzy sets being more useful.)
Oh fuck off. You're old and should feel old for being old. Even if we manage to make it through the overly expensive college process, where the fuck are we supposed to work? This is not our fault. We are not the PHBs that value greed over quality and so outsource our jobs. That's YOUR generation. We didn't crash the stock market. Again, that's on you guys. I don't feel like cleaning your mess up so I'll wait until you fucks die off before I even bother. It has all appearances you're winding up things to crash it again too, so there's really no damned point.
And I don't even wanna hear that safe space bullshit! You guys are so afraid of imaginary terrorists around ever corner you've made the whole goddamned country a conservative "safe space". YOUR side is the one who invented "protest zones" which we had to OCCUPY. YOUR side is the one so goddamned scared that you're passing laws allowing you to run over protesters on the road cause, again, you want a "safe space". You conservatives are the biggest bunch of hypocrites that exist. You fuckers lie so much you've made me bigoted towards you. I don't trust you guys at all. Don't care what color, religion, or fuckhole of choice you partake of, but let me find out you're conservative and I'll run your ass off before you start meddling and you will meddle. You guys can't help it.
"I agree (COMMA) and it's why I am kinda meh (COLLOQUIALISMS) about some of my kids (NEEDS APOSTRPHE) grades in some (OF) his classes. He is going into trades (Probably needs capitalization), good for him, so I tell him not to worry too much about english (CAPITALIZATION) and lit stuff, certainly try (TO) pass, but don't worry about the grade or even really retention that much, as long as he gets the general ideas and learns the lessons from them, then good. (RUN ON SENTENCE. SIX PHRASES STRUNG TOGETHER. WRITING PERSPECTIVE/TENSE CHANGED) I still don't get the teaching of English for so many years, I mean he speaks the damn language properly, and has since middle school. To me (COMMA) that is tons of wasted time that could be spent learning things more relevant to fixing(REPAIRING) elevators."
The elites sure don't agree - they support globalism and as part of that they want to import the "disadvantaged" from all over the world, train them in US Universities and then keep them on as cheap labor. The very LAST thing these globalists want is to train American citizens for these jobs.
Ask yourself why famous universities like USC (my Alma Mater and a good example for this argument) are importing kids from India and Pakistan instead of bringing in kids from across the street in South Central LA. Does anybody truly believe that all those black kids in south central are incapable of learning, or are not interested in STEM careers? This is a despicable form of racism and bigotry displayed by our nation's elites. These elites are also unconcerned with white American citizen kids, but they at least PRETEND to care about American minorities which is why I point out the black kids in Watts in this argument. There is simply no shortage of young Americans within WALKING DISTANCE of American colleges and Universities who would LOVE a bright future and a good education and who are every bit as educatable and would then be every bit as employable as a kid from India or China or Pakistan etc.
This is ENTIRELY about global elites (the sort who go to Davos every year and worship at the feet of infamous Hitler-era NAZI collaborator George Soros) trying to build a global society in which the elites can move labor and resources and assets and political influence all around the world on a whim and as easily as possible to keep themselves rich and powerful while maximizing their exploitation of everybody else. They tried very hard with TPP (in which Trump just killed US participation) which would have enabled them to setup international corporations with the power to overrule governments and would have limited the ability of governments to affect their movements of assets and labor. These snakes with no allegiance to any nation and more commitment to their cash than to their fellow human beings are still pushing as hard as they can and working very hard to trick populations into supporting their agendas.
These elites have names, like Gates, Schmidt , Buffet , Soros, Brin, Cook, etc and they are almost universally aligned with a particular portion of the ideological left where they buy an image as humanitarians and "good guys" by contributing to all the "correct" causes - but that's all small-ball. Those expenses are just "loss leaders" that buy them a camouflage. They pretend to support wealth redistribution and higher taxes on the rich - but it's all a fraud; they use armies of accountants and lawyers and bankers to shelter their assets and incomes from every tax agency on Earth as they become richer and richer. They probably laugh their asses off behind closed doors at how successfully they have conned progressives into supporting them as they do the big-picture economic things progressives would normally be opposed to, while they nominally support various oddball inexpensive progressive social aganda items.
Let India and China compete. Perhaps that will force them out of the dark ages and into the light.
Most teachers in public schools don't really have a college degree.
Oh, you can get a "degree" in teaching. The math requirement is typically just simple algebra, the type you're supposed to learn in 7th grade, and they have the nerve to complain about it being hard. Classes are edubabble nonsense about "constructivism" and "constructionism" and whatever this week's fad is, plus extra helpings of the typical liberal arts nonsense. Much of the time is spent drunk at parties and worse.
I can't fully blame the teachers. It's the same with military officers: We make the degree a requirement, so people go get one. The fact that the degree may be nonsense doesn't make it a waste of time for those who want a certain career.
You could almost say the teachers are getting ripped off by their college, but then, the teachers are only seeking that arbitrary diploma anyway.
The most basic law of economics is "supply and demand". If the Supply of something (in this case, skilled labor) is short, then the price for it (wages and benefits, in this case) will rise. In a free market, this situation is self-correcting too.... as wages rise in a given field, more kids are attracted to it as a career and enrollment in the proper courses in colleges increases, leading to more workers in the field and reduced pressure for wages to rise in the field. The opposite is also true: if there are too many in a particular field then the wages will be flat or decline and kids will move away from those majors leading eventually to fewer people in those fields competing for wages and an eventual stabilization and then rise in wages in that field.
NONE of this has been happening in STEM in the US for the past 20 years. Wages and benefits are flat and even decreasing in some regions, and thus it is PROVEN that there is no shortage of STEM workers in the US. Why then are all the tech titans screaming about shortages and demanding the schools graduate more STEM workers? Two simple reasons: [1] They want to import more STEM workers to further depress wages and boost their own profits, and [2] they want a future glut of domestic STEM workers that will make such skills ubiquitous (and therefore cheap) in the future to further depress wages and boost their own profits.
It's all really just that simple. These super-rich progressives who publicly champion liberal economics and bemoan "income inequality" are in reality the people working hardest to hide their money from tax agencies and to push down the wages of the middle class to boost the income gaps. They like being really rich.
18 months is the average time to complete a Masters degree, of course that's AFTER a BA. It's also basically 4 semesters, so an Associates? What is he actually talking about? Is there actually programs here in the US that offer an 18 month course that promise to make someone a "machine learning scientist", whatever that is? I guess if you took 24 credit-hours per semester you COULD pull a BA out of 18 months.
I thought the problem she was solving was that not enough kids were getting shocks to their noggin'?
Blake Irving is a self-serving liar, too.
Fine. Got that.
So let me get this straight. You and your cancers upon humanity fire American Workers, and bring in more qualified Foreign workers. Than the presumably technically unqualified American Workers have to train the more technically qualified foreign workers in order to do the job the technically unqualifed workers were doing.
Sounds legit.
Seems like if you want foreign workers, badly enough, you pay them the same as you paid the American workers. I suspct the American workers will suddenly become more "technically qualified."
Alternate realities running rampant these days.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Sure, the price tags on imported stuff scream "cheap stuff! buy me!" but the REALITY is that all that "cheap" imported stuff has depressed wages across the nation so that they are paying for that "cheap" stuff with fewer dollars from smaller paychecks.
"There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" (Heinlein reference intended)
Sure, you can have a $30 MP3 player for only $15, but you are doing it with a $30K salary, a high-deductible health plan and no retirement package instead of a $60K salary and good benefits. We've run this experiment many times. Before all the cheap imports and depressed wages, an American family could live very comfortably on ONE worker's salary. Now it takes both parents working and the average family has LESS in the asset column, adjusted for inflation of course, than back then. Home ownership is down, savings are down, etc. Of course, the owners of the multinational corporations who are importing all that cheap junk tariff-free are ROLLING in enourmous piles of cash, and income inequality is at record levels that would have made even the old barons Rockefeller and Morgan blush...
Yup, just keep sucking in and parroting all that talk about traiffs being bad, and "free trade" being next to saintliness - it's making your masters richer by the moment. Bill Gates is about to be a TRILLIONAIRE. He does not want you to notice... he wants you to be happy he supports your gay marriage and your abortion rights (neither of which cost him a penny)... just make sure you support the politicians he wants who will support the trade deals he wants and the loopholes in the tax laws he needs. Go distract yourself with some freaky sex and don't pay attention to economics. Bread and Circuses!!!
"If you want a friend in Washington [DC], get a dog."
Personally, I'm FINE with every person on Earth despising Trump, as long as he's okay with it and it makes him effective. As much as people try to paint him as insecure (which is funny, given how often he's rubbed their noses in it) it takes a VERY secure person to be willing to take all the heat and hatred that's been blasted at him by the entire political spectrum and the global press over the past 16 months.
We just had 8 years of a President who wanted the entire world to love him.
Losing your career because technology is advancing and humanity is advancing is one thing. Losing your career because the local plantaion owner got a better deal on the new slaves off of the most-recently arrived sleek and efficient slave ship is an entirely different matter.
The people using the H1-B visas to import cheap workers are using EXACTLY the same arguments as the slave owners in the 1850s:
They argue that the economics of their industries will not allow them to use white middle class free citizens.
They say they need to use 3rd world darker-skinned imported workers who lack documents or have special documents that tie them to their owners, that these workers are doing "jobs Americans won't do"
They are as outraged now with the election of a new Republican president who threatens their access to cheap imported labor as they were in 1860 when a newly-elected Republican president named Abraham Lincoln was elected and threatened their access to slave labor.... and now, as then, they were so outraged they talkied of assassination and seccession.
This has NOTHING to do with the buggy whip industry fading as the automobile arrived, and NOTHING in common with the typewriter industry dissolving in the face of microcomputers and laser printers.
This is about free, middle class people watching as the super-rich try to convert them into serfs or indentured servants by exploiting foreign workers as labor competition.
My company has been bringing in lots of H1-B contractors and within 3 weeks send them home without paying for them. We have had so many totally unqualified people we now put in our contracts that if the individual can't be productive in 3 weeks we can send them back without paying for them! In the last 3 years we have ramped up out college recruiting and bringing in paid interns from colleges within the state. We end up hiring many of the interns. In the last 3 years we have hired 23 recent college grads and getting better quality out of them. There are PLENTY of qualified American IT workers! Get them right out of college and put a little time into them with training them.
The Truth is a Virus!!!
You misunderstand my question. While some employers may indeed feel this way, it does not really address the underlying point. Why should an employee's nation of origin make any employer feel any differently about how much (or how little) the employee is entitled to? If it shouldn't then it seems like H1B salary restrictions could end up obligating employers to pay some of their employees unfairly.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I would have modded you up on that if not for the AC post.
In my development teams we have about 15 devlopers, at least 5 on H1-B or in the process.
We pay them market rate, otherwise they'll go work for the competition. Also, the H1-B process requires us to state their wage and will deny their application if they make less than market.
For the most part thse are american universities graduates, at the top of their class, very bright and hard working.
So, yes, it is serious competition for the bunch of LOSERS who responded here.
That is why you don't want them, because they are YOUR competition, and you are under-preforming whiners.
And by the way, if denited work visa here, they end up in Canada or the UK. Where they come from, often China or India, there are tens of thousands of people just like them, brighter and more educated than you.
LOSERS!!!!
if you like Fascism. Let me explain.
/. instead of solving the mysteries of the Universe) math and science are things you memorize. You need something simpler to learn your critical thinking skills. Why do you think your (thrice hated) English teacher spent so much time making you analyze old texts for meaning. That's how you teach critical thinking to somebody who isn't no naturally brilliant they learn it (and everything else) on their own.
Ever wonder why we teach humanities? Well, it's because we always have. And why have we always done that? Because way back in the day only rich people went to school. Poor folks worked the fields or died in wars. Now, why do rich people teach their kids humanities? Why would they bother with something that has so little obvious value?
Easy: Critical thinking. You _can_ teach critical thinking. And in fact a _lot_ of folks don't learn it on their own. Now, if you're really smart you can learn it while you learn math and science. For the rest of us (the ones wasting their time on
What does this have to do with Fascism? Well, what sort of numbskulls put a Fascist in charge? The kind that can't think critically. And what's the first thing a Fascist does? Kill all the critical thinkers. This, ladies and gentlemen, is why you're seeing a relentless assault on the humanities. Because it's at odds with the long term goals of our ruling class (betcha forgot we had one of those, seeing as they like to keep quiet these days so as not to get their heads lobbed off).
Congratulations, you fell for it hook, line, sinker.
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No, they are busy finding Nazis they can beat up. They are everywhere, don't you know?
Lets see, can we target folks who have little or no representation. Both the major political parties are just looking for votes and not what the ground reality is. The folks who come here on H1 also end up paying the taxes here, which pays into social-security and medicare, which they may not have access to if they go back to their contries. So, we are asking for is taxation without any representation and benefits. Shame on us for doing this to people who are doing exactly what our ancestors did years ago.
I can tell you from personal experience, that in my last company we had such a tough time trying to just hire engineers. The visa status is more of an obstetrical which makes it harder to hire and retain folks. Most of the fresh grads want to go work for the Googles and the Facebooks of the world. Not in small or medium-sized companies, which are a majority of the companies. Finally, the company gave up and ended up opening an office in India, which means that not only the taxes are lost, but all the other jobs which are created employing the folks here (think site services, lunch-room folks, etc), are not created.
Academic success is first, second and third dependent on how much money your parents have, not how hard you work.
And a lot of right wing BS polluting it. For every charter that is better than a public school, two are worse.
A university (or trade school) is there because most people are not self-starters with the resources to individually arrange what they need to learn about a topic.
Also:
Vocational training is there for people to learn how to follow standard operating procedures.
Academic study is there for people to gain the understanding so that they can write the standard operating procedures.
Example - a bit over twenty years ago despite being utter crap at welding I could design weld joints in a difficult material that the experienced welders could not. It wasn't that they were crap at their job it was just that it was a situation that diverged a lot from anything they had welded before and they hadn't studied the theory.
However if they had that trade experience and had cracked open a few books to learn the theory they would have been much better at it than I - but that's getting beyond the initial training/education thing.
Whilst I could have typed the text you suggest, I didn't because it's not what I mean and in no way equivalent to what I wrote.
If you'd just read my post, you might notice that I don't claim you'll jump into the top 1% as a result of a university education. I do claim that American culture works against success at university, which is true, that American students aren't very motivated to study "hard" (STEM) subjects, which is true, and that foreign students we get here are, which is also true.
Your post can in fact be used to illustrate the point. The blog in the Washington Post you refer to fails to support your claim in several ways.
First it refers to income percentiles, not absolute income. Whilst I would dearly love to claim otherwise, successfully completing one of our university courses does not in itself catapult you into the top income brackets. Being a lawyer, doctor, engineer, researcher doesn't (barring exceptions of course). Going into business or banking does that. The mere fact that you automatically associate success with income percentiles and pronounce upward mobility a failure based on what probability you have to enter the top percentiles illustrates my point. Chinese and Indian students consider becoming assistant professor at a reputable university, or researcher in industry, or a good consultant or generally a definite success. You apparently don't.
Second the graph you refer to only shows that the distribution of which income percentile you'll end up in, depending on how rich your parents were, is skewed. Whilst it does point to rich kids having an advantage, it also shows that 67% of college graduates end up in above-average (actually 40% plus percentile) income categories versus 49% of rich high-school dropouts. Score one for education I'd say.
In third place, have a look at Figure 11: social mobility matrix, college graduate in the Reeves and Sawhill (working) paper your blog reference is based on: https://www.bostonfed.org/ineq...
It shows the strong positive influence of getting a college degree. Note also that the figures those graphs display are based on simulation model outcomes (not observations !), but I'm prepared to accept them as valid for the moment (until proven otherwise).
Can we perhaps get back to the topic at hand now? The question was: do we need universities to "educate American kids first" (i.e. throw overseas students out)?
The answer remains: NO.
American kids have all the opportunities they need to go to university, but then (for various and sometimes quite valid reasons) decide not to. Relieving the disadvantage of an American education and participating in American culture might be a start however.
Which explains the number of successful charter schools in poor areas.
That's funny. My brother-in-law school teacher over in California is against charter schools and school choice because if poor parents don't like their school they can just move to a better one.
Ignoring the fact that every American University seat filled with an international student means one less American student prepared for a tech job.
I guess it's his contention that American students are too stupid to sit in the same classes and be equally-prepared for a 'tech-job'...
"We do not produce enough technically qualified candidates in this country". How about you solve this problem? Silicon Valley has been lucrative for about the lifespan of a teenager who's now qualified to shrink wrap pallets.
If public schools are so great please explain why no one with the money to pay for private school has any desire to use them. See Sidwell Friend's School, a Quaker school, BTW, where the Obama daughters attended school.
Why do you hate inner city black kids and their parents who'd like the same opportunity?
Why do you support doing the same thing over again and again that has failed?
My experience as a volunteer has not been good. One of the schools were of the volunteer made the local news for two events. The first was an acid bomb the kids put in a bathroom (Google it. It is basically an antipersonnel weapon designed to blind people) and for a principal who is using the Internet solicit underage girls. But do not worry the teachers unions will protect them all.
I am a bit older, and I am an Army brat. In the late 1950's – early 1960's the Army school system recruited college students who wanted to go and see Europe in exchange for working at the military schools on base. The result was we got really, really smart teachers! And more than that those teachers got really, really well disciplined kids. There is a funny thing about having good students; it makes really, really good teachers!
I still remember high school senior in one of my schools who decided to get "a little out of hand." in class. The teacher walked to the wall phone and simply requested the MPs to come and remove the discipline problem. The kid was kept in the stockade. Until his father could come and get him. Which was the worst part of all of this. His father did not want this event on his military record.
If H-1Bs posses experience/ability that is not available among U.S. citizens, why are they paid so much less than their inferior U.S. counterparts?
A superior product should command a superior price.
Unless, of course, the market is being manipulated?
Cut the BS. We all know these people are worth a fraction of what an American worker is worth here at home. How many times do we have redo their work for them? Or get them to take the lead out. Honestly? You can say this? It's just down right unAmerican. We should have faith in our workers to compete. We have the smartest, the most innovative and uniquely driven people in the world. This is why everyone wears blue jeans, uses American products, and looks to STEAL our innovations. I say this with great sarcasm ...I think we can keep up.
And...I say the same for all of the colonies. It's hard work, innovation and risk that brought us here to our prosperous position and it will be hard work, innovation and risk that keeps us competitive.
H1B Indians are importing their uncivilized Caste system to USA https://qz.com/889524/the-us-s... http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
Casteism
I wrote this as a reply to another post recently but got no replies, so posting it here.
I understand that there's a lot of anger here and in so many posts over the past years that was tagged as H1b. And being an international student from India working on my PhD (who eventually would need a H1b to work here), some of the really racists comments made me mad/sad as well but I let it pass. I would like to start a thread with what people over here think would happen. There are lot of smart people here, so I'd like your objective (preferably without prejudice which is hard) opinion on how this would play out.
I'd like your opinion on what would happen:
(1) to US nationals who are seeking/laid off employment in IT sectors. For example, will they immediately get jobs at the the salary they are willing to work for?
(2) to US companies that are currently using the contractors to displace US workers. Will they immediately employ US nationals for they pay they requested? Or do something else?
(3) the contract companies themselves, who seem to abuse the system. Do they stop taking clients from US companies? Or do everything offshore?
in the next 1 year, 3 years, 5 years, if, there are heavy restrictions placed on the H1b system so that its really not viable for US companies to use or if the H1b visa system is completely scrapped. I understand this is a hypothetical scenario and just want your realistic opinions on how this would move forward.
Singapore has one of the most liberal labour laws when it comes to hiring foreigners. Just take a look at the IT industry here in SG, the whole sector is dominated by the south asians. All the locals have been pushed out and people know that it is futile to pursue a career in IT. IT departments in banks like citibanks, credit sussie, etc here are almost staffed by south asian on work visas. There is little opportunities left for the local IT professionals. Do you want that in USA?
The dems need to structure it so that it helps the poor talented kids. There needs to be a common curriculum. Otherwise no deal.
Nobody uses godaddy. Surefire recipe for disaster, built by H1b cheapos. Godaddy will file for chapter 11 soon. Death by 1000 cuts.
Note to the CEO: Go to india and work in dadar. Thats where you belong.