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A Colorado Group Wants To Ban Smartphones For Kids (apnews.com)
An anonymous reader quotes the AP:
Colorado officials have cleared the language of a proposed ballot measure that would establish the nation's first legal limits on buying smartphones for children. Backers of the move to forbid the sale of smartphones to children younger than 13 would now need about 300,000 voter signatures for the proposal to make the 2018 ballot. The ban would require cellphone retailers to ask customers about the age of the primary user of a smartphone and submit monthly reports to the Colorado Department of Revenue on adhering to the requirement. Retailers who sell a phone for use by a youngster could be fined $500, after a warning.
A Denver-area dad is leading the campaign -- a board certified anesthesiologist who says children change when they get a cellphone. "They go from being outgoing, energetic, interested in the world and happy, to reclusive. They want to spend all their time in their room. They lose interest in outside activities."
A Denver-area dad is leading the campaign -- a board certified anesthesiologist who says children change when they get a cellphone. "They go from being outgoing, energetic, interested in the world and happy, to reclusive. They want to spend all their time in their room. They lose interest in outside activities."
easy to clip this on to a bill banning burner phones then to just go for a age ban.
sounds like the guy who came up with this should grow some balls and put his foot down and say no to his kids instead of relying on the government to make a law so he can have an excuse
My daughter's phone has helped her be more outgoing, she rides the bus downtown knowing she can call in help if she gets stuck, she communicates among her friends and arranges outings. There is good and bad in the cell phone usage but she's not glued to the phone playing games incessantly.
Nullius in verba
Is there any actual evidence that phones are bad for kids?
My kids got phones when they were 8. We can find them if they get lost, it makes it easy to coordinate pickups. It gives us more freedom to let them go and do what they want, since they can call if they get in situation they can't handle. In fact, we don't let them leave home without their phones. I don't see the downside. I don't think I need an anesthesiologist to tell me how to raise my kids.
Was a Low-Tech Parent (Sept. 10, 2014) https://www.nytimes.com/2014/0...
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Perhaps kids still are outgoing, energetic, and interested in the world. Just through the portal of their phone, through which they can learn about literally anything and come into contact with billions of people around the planet. As opposed to just being able to learn about things around them and meet only people nearby.
Or just lie. There's nothing stopping anyone from lying.
It is not enough for him to simply not give his own children a device. Instead, he is seeking to ban, what he does not like.
Oh, by the way, would somebody please think of the children?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
...this presumably highly intelligent anesthesiologist discovered "teenagers".
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Just what we need, more of the government telling us how to raise our kids. I personally haven't given my kids smartphones until they were 15. But I can certainly see circumstances other people might have in giving their kids smartphones and everyone's circumstances are different. Just because it may be a bad idea in general, doesn't mean it's a bad for everyone. Keep the decision making in the hands of those who know the kids and their circumstances best.
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You ever see a kid with books, they spend their time reading instead of playing outside and socializing. We should ban children from reading so we can have better adjusted children.
I have no plans to give my daughter, or any future children of mine, a smartphone. Ever*. I already limit iPad time (it's mine, not hers), because I want her to remain interested in other things. But, I don't need any government, or even other parents, telling me how to raise my children.
* my position is that when she can afford it, she can buy it. She's not banned from having one; she's just not going to get it from me.
The thinking is that technology interferes with creativity and young minds learn best through movement, hands-on tasks, and human-to-human interaction. Take for instance Waldorf schools. Students at these schools are gaining math, patterning, and problem-solving skills by knitting socks. They aren’t exposed to fractions through a computer program. Instead they learn about halves and quarters by cutting up food. Sounds a bit like summer camp? Well, yes, but parents in Los Altos and at over 150 similar schools across the country say the Waldorf method works and they’re sending their kids to top colleges, from Oberlin to Berkeley. That's my five-and-one-half-cents!
That would encompass even the dumbest phone from 10 years ago.
parents in Los Altos and at over 150 similar schools across the country say the Waldorf method works
Can you cite any actual evidence that they are right?
..but I think smartphones aren't all that great anyway. When some people get so wrapped up in whatever they're looking at on their smartphone that they literally bump into you walking down the street (or into a stationary object, or walk out into traffic, etc), then you have to wonder if they're being misused. Then there's the complete lack of security; any given smartphone, regardless of manufacturer, could be infected with malware, and the owner of the phone might never know about it, even if they never went to any risky URLs, never opened a suspicious email, and never clicked a dubious link. Then there's the fact that your smartphone might have malware baked right into the firmware from the factory. Meanwhile you're paying a premium every month just to have it connected to your wireless companys' network. Think about it: we live in a world where there are people right now who'd rather text each other than talk, even if they're in the same room. Does that seem right? It's easy for someone to say "well, it's a communication tool, I use it to stay in touch with people, and I can research things on the internet, and I can pull up a map to find where I need to go", but when people have their eyes glued to it practically every waking moment? Despite being told not to people are using their smartphones in theatres, and despite hefty fines and risk of being killed in an accident, people are constantly screwing around with their phones while they're driving. Doesn't it really sound like this 'useful' communications tool is being heavily abused to the point where it's more of a nuisance than it is a tool? Let's not even get started on the stories about people who have had thousands (and TENS of thousands) of dollars charged to them because their kids bought things in games or online on their phones..
I don't have a smartphone. I can't justify the expense of the hardware or the monthly connectivity cost, and I especially can't justify carrying around something so incapable of being secured properly against intrusion and against malware infection. Nor do I care to carry around an electronic leash that allows anyone with access to know precisely where I am and perhaps even listen in on what I'm doing or turn on the camera and see what I'm doing. The so-called 'benefits' of the connectivity and processing capabilities are just not anywhere near sufficient to mitigate all the expense and all the problems and deficiencies associated with it. Now we find that perhaps the technology itself, because of how it's misused, overused, and abused, is potentially destructive to kids. Really makes me wonder what it is we've allowed to be done to us.
I'm not aware how anesthesiology is related to smartphones and/or children. This sounds more like he's failed as a parent, or that his kids are turning out indoorsy (just like he did, being a doctor and all).
Anyway, he seems to be at a certain age where he's willing to get his knickers in a twist like he had menopause, which is weird for a guy.
I guess 13 year olds magically have money and cars now to go to the store and buy smart phones. Oh wait, they don't. If you can't tell them no, then you tell them hell no. You're not their friend, you're their parent. Now regarding the burner phone slipping into a Bill idea mentioned, that's an actual possibility when retailers have to ask who you're buying the phone for. They make you show a drivers license for phones that have no contracts like Straighttalk, and that eliminates the point of the phone for some people. Your name is now associated with the device. Though, this may encourage more "dumb" phones in the market which will ironically be a much better burner phone.
Parents want to keep an eye on their kids. That used to be easy. Now, though? The kids interactions are largely digital, staying shut up in their room or curled up on the couch with a phone. They could be studying hard, taking advantage of that little device that gives them access to the sum of all human knowledge. Or they could be arguing with people. Or wasting their time collecting meme images about cats. Or looking at porn - because, sorry parents, but sexual curiosity is not a switch that flips upon the morning of the eighteenth birthday. It's very easy to keep secrets from parents, and so parents are terrified.
Go back another 50 years and the evil that was causing the days youths to spend their days uselessly indoors was "books".
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
Why is the retailer responsible for what the parent/child will do?
For the same reason they are responsible for cigarette sales to people under 18 or liquor sales to people under 21.
It's an easy enforcement point.
It's an approachable idea that I would have no problem with individual parents implementing for their children.
I don't even mind if indviduals try to convince other individuals it's the right thing to do.
LEGISLATION should be based on fucking SCIENCE, not opinions. Get your fucking hands off the people's rights unless you can prove you're right.
IIRC they beefed up the requirements for a constitutional amendment last year, and I'd be surprised if that gets enough signatures to get on the ballot, much less get approved by the voters. This sort of busybody legislation traditionally doesn't go anywhere and this story wouldn't be news until it at least ends up on the ballot, except that it's clickbaity enough to get a lot of clicks.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Correction: Motherfucker needs a cellphone jammed up his ass and another one in each eyeball.
Are under 13 yo's going out and signing phone contracts?
Of course there is plenty of evidence. The same evidence that proved that having computers in their bedrooms was destroying their future. Like all the crap we get fed it is always based on a few anecdotal cases that we are expected to believe are automatically the rule in every case.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Sounds like a good prescription to me!
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Ever heard of a certain app called Pokemon Go?
Is there any actual evidence that phones are bad for kids?
They aren't trying to ban cellular telephones for kids, they are trying to ban smartphones for kids. The important difference here is that one is a telephonic communications device and one is a small computer. The reason this matters is because it's the applications that engineered to maximize user interaction using neuroscience. This can lead to very real addictions regardless of age in a similar fashion to gambling addiction. Are there adults that are addicted to their smartphones? Most definitely.
I'm not arguing in favor of the ban, I'm just answering your question.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
...let's also ban TVs and calculators.” –Luddite Fascists
Error: NSE - No Signature Error
You can not give them smartphones even if giving them smartphones isn't illegal.
Agree totally. They can decide not to give their kids smartphones and let other people decide for themselves.
I'm totally not pro computer/smartphone for kids. But I doubt that Waldorf schools are much better than ordinary schools (at least here in Germany). If you draw such a conclusion, you must control for other differences, e.g., having wealthier parents and probably other stuff.
Take a look at the US laws. Every single one. Now use a blue marker for every law based on logic and science and a red marker for every law based on feelings, emotions, irrational fears and opinions.
I'm fairly sure you'll wear out a few red markers, while the blue one will last you a lifetime.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
These Tom Sawyer stories twist the minds of our youth and fill it with tainted ideas!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
No cellphone up his ass. If you put it on vibrate, he just might enjoy it.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Read the post again. That the kids there turn out great does not establish causality. You must account for confounding factors (a proper controlled study).
"They go from being outgoing, energetic, interested in the world and happy, to reclusive. They want to spend all their time in their room. They lose interest in outside activities."
Of course there's evidence of this, it just changes every couple of years. Previous candidates: Heavy metal, Dungeons and Dragons, [...] stamp collecting, trading cards, [...] Morris Dancing, [...] cave painting [...] banging rocks together. I've left out a few hundred of them just to save space.
Every kid pre cell phones had the freedom to go where they wanted and do what they want. My mom used to tell me to be back when the street lights came on and off I went on my bike. No cell phone. You need to stop being a helicopter parent and let your children be children.
I don't think interacting with the kids at a kindergarten for 10 minutes will have the outcome you think it will.
"They go from being outgoing, energetic, interested in the world and happy, to reclusive. They want to spend all their time in their room. They lose interest in outside activities."
Sure they haven't just discovered porn?
:-)
On a more somber note it's _impossible_ to imagine a modern day Huck going off on his own on an adventure spanning multiple states with an adult that's not a close relative.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
The board certified anesthesiologist may be missing the point: these kids who no longer appear outgoing, energetic, interested in the world and happy to him may be not reclusive at all, but instead finding a wider world through their phone connection to it.
Same thing happened to teenagers who got cars in the 1950s, they used to be around the house doing homework, chores, going to bed on time, etc. and suddenly they're always gone, hanging out with new people at all hours doing god-knows-what.
Not saying that it can't go bad - freedom isn't utopia, but neither is being locked in a cell with no access to the outside world.
Stick that in your vent tube and huff it.
Yes, involving the whole body in learning is far better than squeezing all input through a 3.5" screen, and all output through the thumbs.
However, parents in Los Altos can afford Oberlin to Berkeley- that's my 2 cents in change.
Hey, we elected a senile spray-tan with a toupee (or at least a very convincing imitation of one), why not vote for some more "common sense" conservatism?
'Those darned teenagers! Spending hour after hour on the phone!
Argle Bargle, that was an excellent arglebargle. Made me laugh. I agree.
Morris Dancing? I found this: Bad rap for morris dancing
Quote from below, edited: "Radio in the 1940s, TV in the 60s, D&D in the 80s... There has never been a shortage of parents who didn't understand new technology and needed a scapegoat to blame their bad parenting on."
Sounds like kids could still use dumb phones (including most burner phones) to make calls and send/receive texts? The issue seems to be access to the Internet? I can see benefits to little Bobbie being able to tell mom where he/she ended up after the school bus broke down. Not owning a smartphone myself, I have no idea what evil influences smartphones expose pre-teens to.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
Are there adults that are addicted to their smartphones? Most definitely.
There are a whole lot more adults that are simply addicted to avoidant behavior. If it wasn't smartphones it would be TV. Before TV it would've been a book.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
"humans change when they get a cellphone. "They go from being outgoing, energetic, interested in the world and happy, to reclusive. They want to spend all their time in their room. They lose interest in outside activities."
Not sure why in the hell we're being rather ignorant as to the real impact of these devices, as the adult is reduced to emulating ancient cavemen, communicating with emojis scribbled on a (digital) wall in a society that champions reclusive Netflix binge sessions.
And to clarify, kids are interested in a world; it just happens to be a digital one. They become social media addicts striving to be the greatest narcissist in the universe, broadcasting their every move to the entire planet. "Outside activities" are not what is rewarded in this world anymore. How many friends, clicks, and likes you can amass every day is what is rewarded. Parents, if you're wondering where they got this from or how to curb it, remember that kids learn from their environment.
Not having any children I don't have any input on the best method to educate them but it sounds a lot like the best programming language wars. Whatever the merits or pitfalls of a particular language (or method) ultimately what differentiates a good coder vs a bad one, is not their choice of programing language but rather the time and effort the programer dedicated to the mastery of their skills
Just replace "cell phone" with "Nintendo", and this guy sounds just like my dad sounded growing up.
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
Why is the US obsessed with fractions? Is it simply because of Imperial measurements (feet, inches etc.)?
Most developed countries seem to treat fractions as something you teach kids to get them started, before they move on to real division. In everyday life people more often use percentages, e.g sales will be "50% off" rather than "1/2 price".
Anyway, I'd be careful about attributing the children's success to techniques like this. Those schools look really nice, well funded. It could easily be down better diet, for example.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Would this affect the first amendment
I'm not an American, but I would have to wonder if this would be an encroachment on the first amendment
You are training your kids to never be without their NSA tracking device.
Do you actually work for the NSA or are you a volunteer trainer for them?
Indeed. There's going to by talking, followed by anger, followed by crying. And there's no telling what the kids will do.
#DeleteFacebook
So the solution is quite clear: ban books.
#DeleteFacebook
Schools now ask kids to 'do research' with their phones in class, so that is getting more and more difficult. Sure, they'll let your kid use the computers down the hall to do the same research but then they are separated from the rest of their class and most of the computers are broken. Is this a shitty way to run a school? Absolutely, but try complaining to a school and see how deaf they can be.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I see a lot of non-parents commenting on how people should simply not buy their kids a smartphone. Then your kid comes home and says they couldn't get on a computer at school because they were all broken and the rest of the class did the assignment they needed to do on their phone and the teacher condoned this. Then you find out it isn't that simple.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Whatever the merits or pitfalls of a particular language (or method) ultimately what differentiates a good coder vs a bad one, is not their choice of programing language but rather the time and effort the programer dedicated to the mastery of their skills
Oh, I'd disagree. A COBOL or Visual BASIC programmer, for instance, has no idea about a whole range of functionality that they're missing. They might be a great programmer compared to others in their chosen language, but their language constrains them in ways that prevents them from reaching their potential as compared to what's possible had they chosen a different language. Not only that, but their choice of language may make it inherently difficult for them to switch to another language, as they will have to expand their knowledge base around more than just syntax to be proficient in them.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
Why is the US obsessed with fractions?
Because that's the first major stumbling block in how math is taught in the US. If you can't get past fractions, you are doomed to relatively low-level jobs, because your education just stopped.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
So the solution is quite clear: ban books.
Right! And then ban playing cards, and board games, and then once you've taken everything else away you'll have to ban genitals
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Is there any actual evidence that phones are bad for kids?
My kids got phones when they were 8. We can find them if they get lost, it makes it easy to coordinate pickups. It gives us more freedom to let them go and do what they want, since they can call if they get in situation they can't handle. In fact, we don't let them leave home without their phones. I don't see the downside. I don't think I need an anesthesiologist to tell me how to raise my kids.
I wouldn't feel safe with having my 8 year olds go somewhere alone without an adult. No matter how much I trust the kid, they don't know about certain dangers at that age, and there are certainly adults who you can't trust.
Maybe you live in a super sanitized safe area compared to me.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
When will people stop trying to pass laws to force their beliefs into others and stop trying to rely on the government to spread some sort of religious (based on belief) message?
I mean, really, how people can be this stupid? As far as I know, being a "board certified anesthesiologist" does not qualify you to pass laws based on whatever crap you believe without any proof. And even if he had any proof, trying to pass a law would not be the way to go - this is the competence of regulatory bodies. The fact that he's not going through proper procedures already shows how biased the whole thing is.
This is no different than the crap about violent games, TV, rock music, or that damn subversive literature that is destroying our kids.
And in the end, it's just a fucking waste of time. Like any retailer would ever submit a report that automagically forces them to pay a $500 fine. Most kids will get their parents' old smartphones and tablets anyways, and if any parent wanted to buy a smartphone or tablet for their kids they'd just purchase one for themselves and then hand it over. Fucking waste of time and energy. This is literally the will someone please think of the children crap.
But the 50s car kids still appeared outgoing, energetic, etc. We've known for a while that social media depresses people, so that's probably what is going on with smartphone usage.
Here's hoping this takes the same path as light drinking before driving. Now it's the childred; soon it'll be the adults too. Anyone else here spend an hour every day just waiting for people to finish their sentences across a pause to look at a smartphone for no good reason?
If it was otherwise, and blue marker consumption went way up, it would lead to the politicization of science, which would cease to be science.
Are there adults that are addicted to their smartphones? Most definitely.
There are a whole lot more adults that are simply addicted to avoidant behavior. If it wasn't smartphones it would be TV. Before TV it would've been a book.
For times immemorial, extroverts have looked at introverts and decided since introverts would rather spend a large amount of time not socializing there must be something wrong with them.
No, introverts just don't want to spend time socializing. That's it. That's all. Take our phones, take our computers, we still don't want to sit around in a group of 20 people singing Kumbaya.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Conversely, a C programmer who can't graphically 'draw' the user interface will have no idea what he's missing out on as he struggles with curses to create the code that draws the screen that his program uses for user interaction.
not understanding ratios really screws you good when you get into higher maths such as algebra and calculus
love is just extroverted narcissism
Take a look at the US laws. Every single one.
I just did this. Now I know I shouldn't whistle under water or I might get arrested, and I know I shouldn't be lying on baker's shelves.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Leave it to the parents, I say. I know parents who rations "screen time" (phone as well as pc and tv.)
This so the kids will have enough time to socialize and learn motor skills. No need for a ban - because small amounts of smartphone usage is not a problem.
Motherfuckers must be talking about the cool kids because that sure as hell wasn't me.
See... and I always thought you WERE the cool one. When I grow up, I want to be an anonymous coward.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
But what percentage of the population will actually have a use for either?
Also, it's worth considering that where algebra is concerned, most of the "basic fraction" skills are of dubious value. Yes, you use the same rules for, for example, adding two dissimilar fractions, but you're using them in an abstracted context that most student will have to relearn practically from scratch anyway. I've even tutored several people wo never "got" fractions until they mastered the algebra version of the concept - at which point the rules for "basic" fractions come for free.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
"They go from being outgoing, energetic, interested in the world and happy, to reclusive. They want to spend all their time in their room. They lose interest in outside activities."
Isn't that normal teenage behavior? I grew up long before cell phones. When I was a teen I spent most of my time in my room working on an old Apple ][+ computer.
"Politicians always tell the truth, when they're calling each other liars."
I would also advise against putting ice cream into your back pockets or keeping your donkey in a bathtub.
http://www.dumblaws.com/
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Of course there's evidence of this, it just changes every couple of years. Previous candidates: Heavy metal, Dungeons and Dragons, [...] stamp collecting, trading cards, [...] Morris Dancing, [...] cave painting [...] banging rocks together. I've left out a few hundred of them just to save space.
I was the victim of Morris Dancing addiction. My basement was filled with Hurdy Gurdys and thrift shop flower Garlands. I sold my body on the streets to buy an accordion I abandoned and rejected family and friends. I was on a downward spiral that would only end with my demise. Damn those Morrisites and their fancy geegaws and velocipedes.
Then I bought a smartphone, and kicked my addiction on facebook. Type yes if you agree.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
A lot of that stuff is entirely impossible today. And I'm not even talking about the slavery parts, pretty much everything that Tom and Huck did would send CPS after Aunt Sally these days.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I would suspect that it has something to do with the fact that there are numbers that are accurately expressed as fractions that can only be approximated as decimals.
1/3 is an example of what I mean by that.
I also happen to think that for some calculations, it's easier to get a mental picture of a fraction than a decimal number. 70% is more intuitive to me than 7/10.
When fractions make sense to me, I use fractions. When decimals make sense to me, I use decimals.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
But what percentage of the population will actually have a use for either?
A significant portion of the best jobs today require algebra and calculus to complete their standard college curriculum. So most people in STEM jobs require both. I would argue they also need the knowledge and the reasoning skills built during the learning process, but even if I'm wrong about that they still need those skills to graduate college.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
But the 50s car kids still appeared outgoing, energetic, etc. We've known for a while that social media depresses people, so that's probably what is going on with smartphone usage.
The kids are probably playing Candy Crush or the like rather than hanging out on social media.
Plenty of adults go through smartphone addiction, and get a little weird. Never looking up, walking in front of buses, and generally tuning out. But just like anything, especially when dealing with children, some supervision is a good thing. When going some place, sure, take the phone. Maybe an hour playing games. Otherwise limit the use, just like with computers.
Banning is ridiculous at this point.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Thank goodness this idea is proposed by a board certified anesthesiologist and not some dilettante who has no expertise on how kids should be raised.
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
... that voted to legalize marijuana. Not just medininal marijuana, but any marijuana - be it medicinal or recreational.
So if this prop passes, it would be legal to snort pot, but not legal for a kid to have a smart phone?
He's a typical American; you shouldn't be surprised. Americans love to show off their ignorance and revel in it.
We've known for a while that social media depresses people
No we don't. Heavy social media use is correlated with depression. But no causal relationship has been shown.
Geez, I couldn't keep up with my jacket for more than 2-3 weeks when I was 8yrs old....much less a $$$$$ small electronic device.
I guess I can see the "pro" side of it..easier contact with kids...as that we don't have pay phone everywhere like we used to.
But I dunno...I don't think I'd buy my kids smartphones that young. Actually I think I'd have them work and earn money to buy most of the phone and "help" them a bit...but likely only when they were a teen, maybe 16yrs?
I'm not sure the obsession parents seem to have today....are the chances of a child kidnapping THAT much greater than it was when I was a kid, or are people more paranoid?
I mean, when I was a kid 12yrs old or so, I'd take off on my skateboard in the mornings in the summer...and might not come home till dinner time...I'd be out running around skating with friends, maybe building a ramp (with plywood stolen from new houses being built, no one got in trouble)...or running out in woods....maybe at the neighborhood swimming pool....but I wasn't in 24/7 phone touch with parents. When I was younger than 12yrs, I was pretty much the same way, but my folks would want me to try to call from a friend's house to check in every 2-3 hours...but that was for very young.
The more I think about it, I"m really GLAD we didn't have cell phones where parents could track us 24/7.....glad there wasn't a fscking camera everywhere, and social media.
I'd not have had the fun I did....and the mischief we got into...didn't lead us to getting into trouble, or going on records, or being scrutinized by everyone in the world.
We had fun, learned from mistakes, and I'm still friends with many of those same guys, and we now have tons of fun stories when we get together.
Man..the more I think about some of our exploits back then...if done today, would have had homeland security looking for us...*SIGH*
I actually feel sorry for the kids of today a bit....with all the electronics, they don't seem to learn as early (if at all) how to really talk to each other and socialize in meat space as well. They don't seem to be as active.....having friends in their neighborhoods, with "kill the man with the ball" games breaking out, etc. and doing other fun outdoor activies.
I don't think maybe I'd buy my young kids smart phones, maybe not buy phones at all....I'd want to allow them to be kids like I was, to learn what it is to be trusted and trustworthy, and to face consequences when they did wrong and go caught.
Hell, I'm not sure I'd let them on social media till they were much older....you can't be bullied on social media, if you're not on it....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Why don't they know what to be careful of??
When I was that age, growing up in Dallas, my Mom and I would go to the large malls...I'd tell her I was going to the toy store or the book store(s)...and I'd generally stay there reading and looking around for a few hours and we'd have a designated place to meet up. I certainly was smart enough NOT to do anything with a stranger, I was taught to be cautious...etc.
Are kids being raised stupid these days, or...are the parents trying to coddle and shield their kids too much and not telling them what to be on the lookout for....?
Being raised like I was, led me to being a very independent child at an early age....which served me well when it was time for me to leave home, I really had no problem going by myself into the world , moving states away to college, and having great adventures.
I love my folks...and still call where they live "home"....but I've been quite comfortable out on my own and exploring the world and I attribute it largely to having more independence at a young age than kids seem to have today.
And we didn't have cellphones or social media, etc....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I live in Colorado, and have a 2-year-old daughter. She occasionally gets to play games on my wife's iPad, but we have to moderate how much because if she spends too much time on it she gets cranky. She won't have her own smartphone until she is at least 13 (probably older).
I can certainly see where this group is coming from, but I strongly disagree that it should be made a law. Every kid is different, and every family is different. Parents need to make decisions based on what's best for their kids and their family. Even if I happen to agree with them about keeping kids away from smartphones until they are old enough to mentally handle them, I disagree that it is something that should be forced. I do not support taking away parents' choice on the matter.
If I see one of those petitioners collecting signatures to put this on the ballot, I will refuse to sign. If it makes it to the ballot, I will be voting against it.
Intelligent responses welcome, flames will be met with marshmallows.
And there is the point of politics. There has to always be a good, or a bad. How else can politicians tell us that they are protecting us.
I know the guy going for this isn't a politician but he falls into that camp that the government needs to protect us from this new fangled technology that is changing our kids brains. Once again we pull our the tried and true, let's protect the children.
Even though we have no evidence of what harm all this stuff is doing. We just don't know that changing our brains is supposed to be bad.
Save Pangaea!! Stop Continental Drift!!
When I take personality tests I fall near the midpoint on the introvert/extrovert scale, last time I took a myers-briggs I was right on the line. I understand, at least on some level, about introversion. But there are also a lot of reasons why interaction with other humans is beneficial. People can prefer introversion and there can be benefits to interacting with others anyway at the same time.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
So are the kids to have no independence till the age of 13? Or is the author of the bill conversly ready to let 10 year olds out of sight for a day with no means to reach them or check where they are? If technology was that bad, we would not have all adopted it. Now it's a job of each parent to manage its use. Just because there is a cell phone in kids name does not mean they get to use it for the whole evening or install whatever apps they want.
"Officer the cell phone belongs to my dad...honest. I was just picking up the kilo of pot for him from 7-11"
Since when did "a significant portion" become "a ratio"???? Ironic in a thread fragment talking about the need to know what ratios are you make one that shows how little ratios are needed beyond the fact that they exist.
Teaching students the difference between quantitative and qualitative measurements and when each are appropriate is also important. Just because sometimes you only have qualitative measurements in no way means you never need to learn how to calculate qualitative measurements.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
An introvert doesn't askew all contact with humanity, they just chose to spend more time alone. I would never want to lose all contact with all people forever; but, if I prefer to go for a hike alone, or read a book alone, or be on my phone alone, or go kayaking in a safe location alone, that shouldn't be looked on as an abnormality.
A lot of extroverts feel like introverts are broken because they don't want to be surrounded by other people all the time. That's not true. There is "me" time and there is "with other people time". Introverts just prefer more "me" time.
No one wants to be truly alone. (or almost no one).
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
And yes, I know it's eschew not askew. Not sure why I typed that before the grammar Nazis get me. Only noticed I did that after I hit submit.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
Why don't they know what to be careful of??
Because you can't teach them everything. Some things take time. You can teach them 99% of things to watch out for but you will always miss something. A child raised in the South might not know what to look out for on a frozen lake to see if it safe to walk on. A child raised in Oklahoma might not know what a rip current is. Unless you've thought to tell them, a child may not know to not touch someone who has been electrocuted.
There are a million things and a million dangers, and quite simply, you won't remember every danger to tell a child to look out for.
And even if you tell a child not to talk to strangers- you might be surprised. There was a viral video a few years back where a news team (with parent's permission) did an experiment on walking up to young children (to whom they were strangers) and start talking to them.
Every single parent said "my child would never talk or go off with a stranger". Almost every single one did start talking to the "stranger". And the majority did start to walk off with the "stranger".
I think in many cases parents think their children are smarter than they really are- or more likely to trust their danger instincts than the really do. You can teach your kids to avoid strangers- but then when you're not around they might forget your advice.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
A competent C programmer wouldn't use curses while programming UI interaction, although he might be cursing the library APIs.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
They probably thought a "stranger" was some creepy looking character. The people they went with were normal-looking and friendly.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
I can still remember the millions of children that simply disappeared before the advent of cell phones. It was a huge tragedy.
Have gnu, will travel.
Get your fucking hands off the people's rights unless you can prove you're right.
Apparently you haven't gotten the memo, friend; The Truth has been up for sale for a long time now; it gets to be defined by the highest bidder. Otherwise, for instance, tobacco companies would have been driven out of business a long time ago.
All who drank poison did so under duress, and more than a third of victims (304) were minors. Citations at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Exactly. I, as well as two of my friends, had a computer in my (their) bedroom as a kid -
Was this pre-internet?
There are lots of people who seem eager to ban any teenage activity that doesn't involve sex or drugs.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
If you checked, you'd also find that anti-depressive drug use is correlated with depression. Social media use might be self-medication.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
The plural of anecdote is not data.
I'm fine with banning cell phones that emit significant ionizing radiation, but I doubt any do unless carried as part of a Fukushima cleanup or dropped into a reactor waste pool or something like that. If you want to get me to agree with restrictions on non-ionizing radiation, you can bloody well come up with solid proof of harm.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
> Are there adults that are addicted to their smartphones? Most definitely.
Maybe those adults should have waited until they were over 13 to use a smartphone. Oh wait, they did?
Not really sure how having an age barrier is going to fix that one then.
All cell phones serve as tracking devices.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Your tripe response appears to imply you believe I was somehow saying it would prevent such things from happening. Save everyone the time and read the entire post before replying.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
I can still remember the millions of children that simply disappeared before the advent of cell phones. It was a huge tragedy.
I used to get so lost as a child before my internal compass developed on my thirteenth birthday. It was horrible.
Just another second banana
In other words, since we have a bad situation, we should refrain from trying to improve it? I can't do much about established laws, unless they get some outside publicity, but I can have some influence about new ones, so that's the economical way to exert pressure.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
You learned from your mistakes that it is okay to steal if you don't get caught?
My sig doesn't address Anons, sigs aren't visible to them.
My tripe response? This has nothing at all to do with stomach lining.
And I did read your entire response. The parent post was asking if there was evidence it was bad for kids. The nuance was the question wanted information on if it was bad for kids but not for adults. All you did was point out something that happens regardless of age, so your response was useless in that regard.
Which I pointed out with a trite response.
Don't blame the parents. Parents who try to do what you say (let their kids roam around unsupervised) are derided as "free range parents" and get arrested by the cops, and their kids seized by CPS due to "negligence".
Not accusing you, but they also give people every excuse to be lazy parents who are un-involved and don't really know what their kids are up to or how they treat the neighborhood.
Cheap storage VM.
True, I've always restricted my kids computer and internet usage. Mostly an honor system, but we step in when we notice things. Once the school started requiring them to have Ipads, it became much more difficult. I have the ability to use technical means to restrict things, but it's still difficult.
Whatever their doing, it's ALWAYS for school, or so they say. I have to intercede and use Apple's tools to see what's really going on. Some of this stuff is practically impossible without another Apple ecosystem device.
Cheap storage VM.
Of course there's evidence of this, it just changes every couple of years.
Disney's Carousel of Progress pretty much nailed this, and I'd venture a guess most people watching it don't even realize it. In the "turn of the century" scene, the teenage boy is looking at a risqué photograph on a stereoscope. In the 1940s scene, the teenage daughter is gossiping with her friend on the telephone.
There was this article I recall reading where this family decided any post-80s technology was banned from their home. Thing is, the 80s had VHS (and a rental store in almost every strip mall), Walkmans, pocket TVs, handheld gaming devices (and the first Gameboy, in '89), and... cell phones (granted, they were huge and didn't do anything other than make extremely costly phone calls). It was also pretty likely in the pre-Internet era that at least one of your friends would have access to filthy magazines (Playboy has been around since the '50s!).
So yeah, it's just bad parents who just remember growing up without smartphones - not the hours spent playing Nintendo, reading comics, watching VHS tapes, sitting in the corner listing to their Walkman, etc.
---
DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
As an introvert myself, it's the people who go stir crazy if they don't have other people around them that seem broken to me. If you're not okay being alone by yourself for a reasonable amount of time, you've got something wrong with you. Likewise, if you can't stand to be around other people for a reasonable amount of time, you've probably got a social anxiety disorder, not just introversion. A healthy person is fine with other people or by themselves.
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
I checked the website of the Waldorf schools in my (US) state. Preschool is $17K/yr, K-8 is $23K/yr, 9-12 is $29K/yr. There is some "tuition help" listed, but only up to 50% off for those who qualify. These schools are in some of the most affluent areas of my state, with real estate prices regularly flirting with $1M+ for pretty "normal" houses. They also have some of the best public schools in the state. So yeah, at least in my area, anyone who attends Waldorf school is going to be self-selected as someone who can not only afford to live in the most expensive towns but above that has enough income to spend ~$25K (or n*$25k/yr if there are siblings) to send their kids to school. I'm willing to bet these kids would be "successful" no matter what, since their family has access to wealth and resources that aren't available to quite literally the other 99% of society.
Right! And then ban playing cards, and board games, and then once you've taken everything else away you'll have to ban genitals
Sounds like someone has an in with the Religious Right. Can you tell what else they're planning?
The problem is defining what a "smart phone" is. I'm typing this response on my "smart typewriter." If it passes, there will probably be a list. On that list will be the higher-dollar phones because to many regular consumers, that makes sense but would really be a marketing tactic. Kids want what they can't have, so let's make sure they want the expensive ones. The government could use the FCC to define what a smart phone is; so far, they seem to recognize Andriod, iOS, Blackberry, and Windows Phone. Can you imagine a "phone dealer" on street corners? Reminds me of how the Soviets used to ban Western stuff. I do find it a little too ironic that Slashdot has a poll on what smart phones should be called and then this issue shows up. Lets face it, the concept of a "smart phone" never really had anything to do with the phone, but making people feel like what they had was "dumb," and kids are going to feel dumb for not owning one. Manufacturers utilize the Summer season for kids to miss school friends, then return to school in the Fall to see all the new cell phones, and then comes the begging for a smart phone at a birthday or Christmas; most birthdays are in August and god help anyone with multiple kids.
Why didn't you get your kids phones when they were 7? I started programming TI calculators when I was 5.
Yes it is.
As someone who's struggled with that myself, I'd still say that it's some kind of unhealthy, likely an anxiety condition of one sort or another.
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
You mean Muslims, the religion defended by the Leftist Progressives.
It doesn't matter which religious reich seizes the reins of power, it is always shit for everyone else, and even for their own followers who are not sufficiently pious or zealous. That's why you can't have freedom of religion without freedom from religion.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
a board certified anesthesiologist who says children change when they get a cellphone
So an M.D. has an opinion on education, socialization, and behavior? Great, but he gets the same weight as my mechanic and the pool guy.
If we can get a Psy.D. to agree, then maybe I'll listen. Or better yet, make it a consensus of the field that actually studies child development. Hint: not anesthesiology.
It's great that he cares about kids. But he really, really needs to prove he's right if he wants to make it a law.
---
According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
Cell phones are bad for a parent's pocketbook when the kid isn't responsible enough to keep it from getting lost when they take it somewhere.
It's cheaper in the long run to just wait until they are old enough that they are earning their own money to buy their own phone and pay for a young person's account themselves.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Good by Morris Dancing, hello Music with Rocks In...
His statement seems correct to me.
He is saying that how his children turn out has no correlation with whether he provides someone statistical proof or not.
Do you have a different comprehension of his words?
A lot of extroverts feel like introverts are broken because they don't want to be surrounded by other people all the time.
Also, there's a LOT more extroverts out there, so it's easy for them to discriminate against introverts and get away with it. It's easy to see yourself as not broken when you're the moral majority.
Having grown up in the 80's, my teachers thought I was broken and regularly punished me for it, let alone tried to fix me. Thankfully, my parents understood I was an introvert, and despite considerable pressure from the school, they refused to put me on drugs.
No argument. But again, we're talking about a small minority of the *total* jobs out there.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Smart-Phones have/do change us. I'm not sure its even worth talking about good or bad as this is progress. Without an EMP from the sun and a plague afterwords, we would rebuild to this moment, and "move forward". Reality is that we, as a species, are becoming very intertwined with these devices. It seems to me its inevitable. Bringing awareness to everyone's phone use is important. Self-Awareness campaign should be first. Clearly this is something that has touched a nerve, clearly people are seeing fallout, wondering and somewhat nervous as we don't know the answers. Law's I'm not excited about, but the awareness this father has brought, which no other outlet seems to have rung the bell as loudly, is great. Let's get all of this on the table and take control of the smart-phones. Apple and the rest have basically hacked our minds through neurosciences. Its time to check and balance that. They've had 10 years using us as guinea pigs. We see there is good and bad, at what point do we bark back and say... "THIS is enough". So while my kid very well may get a phone with some access at some age, that should be up to my bad parenting to decide. My parents screwed me up, its my turn to have fun, and I don't want someone else's rules. I do understand the sentiment that if my kid has a phone and his doesn't that he could feel bad for his kids, but that's life and that is where verbal communication and talking come in... "hey johnny, when you all plan that on snapchat, can you text me the time/place, 'cuz my dad won't let me have snapchat." We don't need a study to tell us its affecting us all differently, with general overlapping unions of generally "bad behaviour" we've all exhibited at times. What we do need is some introspection as to where this is taking us, cuz the ride is far from over and there is no getting off this train.
My children received our hand-me-down phones that only work on wireless and they started learning how to draw and animate on them. Litigating a tool for the sake of mollifying the sensibilities of a shitty parent is not what Freedom is about.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
Does their phone include data? If so, you can be assured that the kids are using Facebook and other sites, by claiming to be age 16. Children need to play, ride bycycles, do sports etc. At meal time are they texting. I believe that the cellphone dehumanitizes kids. Some countries allow cellphones that can only dial home. Do preteens need more?
You know how often I used a payphone as a kid? Zero times. Be home at 6 for dinner and no excuse of not having a watch. If I was in doubt, I could go home earlier, but never later.
You know how often I was late by accident? Never? (On purpose and trying to lie my way out of it? Often)
That said, I do not have kids nor am I 8 years old, so I have no idea how things work now. Being outside a group because you do not have a way to contact potential friends isn't fun either, nor is being bullied for NOT being on social media. (Haha, luser here doesn't even have a Facebook account. He probably eats boogers.)
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
I'm guessing you don't have an autistic kid.
I was usually the queer getting smeared too, and it taught me to stay on my feet regardless of pain.
That skill 30 years later helped greatly in a mugging incident.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
When I discovered rock and punk music I became reclusive and lost interest in outside activities. Maybe this guy is actually describing adolescence.
You have to appreciate your parents for avoiding stupid medical advice. Screw that school.
I would tend to agree with this.
Yet, not all parents take responsibility like you apparently do.
I am, however, pro-education on living with contemporary technology and contemporary society - even for parents.
Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
No. It is (currently) the OPINION of some individuals that it is a bad situation, and the opinion of many others (including the majority of /. commenters, apparently) that it is not a bad situation. This conflict should be resolved by DOING SCIENCE. (In my opinion.)
If you're so certain of that then you might have provided some links. Or your name.